From John.Fischer@sun.com Thu Feb 14 14:53:04 2008 Received: from newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (newsunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.245]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m1EMr4SP009140 for ; Thu, 14 Feb 2008 14:53:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m1EMr2sb043633 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:lsarc-ext@sun.com>; Thu, 14 Feb 2008 15:53:04 -0700 (MST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JW900C113KGSD00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for lsarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT lsarc-ext@sun.com); Thu, 14 Feb 2008 15:53:04 -0700 (MST) Received: from sca-es-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.43.133]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JW900BJN3KFHL10@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for lsarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT lsarc-ext@sun.com); Thu, 14 Feb 2008 15:53:03 -0700 (MST) Received: from fe-sfbay-10.sun.com ([192.18.43.129]) by sca-es-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m1EMr2nm006512 for ; Thu, 14 Feb 2008 14:53:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from conversion-daemon.fe-sfbay-10.sun.com by fe-sfbay-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0JW900I013G8IV00@fe-sfbay-10.sun.com> (original mail from John.Fischer@Sun.COM) for lsarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT lsarc-ext@sun.com); Thu, 14 Feb 2008 14:53:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.10.6] ([24.10.86.139]) by fe-sfbay-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0JW900CLP3K68X30@fe-sfbay-10.sun.com> for lsarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT lsarc-ext@sun.com); Thu, 14 Feb 2008 14:52:55 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 14:52:33 -0800 From: John Fischer Subject: LSARC/2008/116 - XDG User Dirs Sender: John.Fischer@sun.com To: lsarc-ext@sun.com Cc: Dermot McCluskey , Darren Kenny Reply-to: John.Fischer@sun.com Message-id: <47B4C631.9090603@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Boundary_(ID_O6U/1qQeogBT6Hx0boOhHQ)" X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.4 (X11/20070622) Status: RO Content-Length: 6664 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_O6U/1qQeogBT6Hx0boOhHQ) Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT LSARC, I am sponsoring this fast track for Darren Kenny of the Gnome group in Dublin, Ireland. I have set the timer for Thursday February 21st, 2008. The case directory contains this proposal. This project is proposing to integrate the XDG User Dirs into a Minor release of Solaris. XDG User Dirs is a tool to help manage "well known" user directories like the desktop folder and the music folder. It also handles localization (i.e. translation) of the filenames. Thanks, John --Boundary_(ID_O6U/1qQeogBT6Hx0boOhHQ) Content-type: text/plain; name=proposal.txt Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline; filename=proposal.txt Template Version: @(#)onepager.txt 1.35 07/11/07 SMI Copyright 2007 Sun Microsystems 1. Introduction 1.1. Project/Component Working Name: XDG User Dirs 1.2. Name of Document Author/Supplier: Darren Kenny 1.3. Date of This Document: 02/11/08 1.3.1. Date this project was conceived: 01/01/08 1.4. Name of Major Document Customer(s)/Consumer(s): 1.4.1. The PAC or CPT you expect to review your project: Solaris PAC 1.4.2. The ARC(s) you expect to review your project: LSARC 1.4.3. The Director/VP who is "Sponsoring" this project: robert.odea@sun.com 1.4.4. The name of your business unit: OPG / OpenSource. 1.5. Email Aliases: 1.5.1. Responsible Manager: leo.binchy@sun.com 1.5.2. Responsible Engineer: darren.kenny@sun.com 1.5.3. Marketing Manager: dan.roberts@sun.com 1.5.4. Interest List: desktop-discuss@opensolaris.org 4. Technical Description: 4.1. Details: XDG User Dirs is a tool to help manage "well known" user directories like the desktop folder and the music folder. It also handles localization (i.e. translation) of the filenames. Typically these directories are accessed in applications using the Committed glib 2.14 function: g_get_user_special_dir() The command xdg-user-dirs-update is run very early in the login phase. This program reads a configuration file, and a set of default directories. It then creates localized versions of these directories in the users home directory and sets up a config file in $(XDG_CONFIG_HOME)/user-dirs.dirs (XDG_CONFIG_HOME defaults to ~/.config) that applications can read to find these directories. Sysadmins can configure things by editing /etc/xdg/user-dirs.conf. At the moment there are only two settings, you can disable the whole thing, and you can specify the charset encoding used for filenames. They can also set or change the default directories and their initial values in /etc/xdg/user-dirs.defaults. $(XDG_CONFIG_HOME)/user-dirs.dirs specifies the current set of directories for the user. This file is in a shell format, so its easy to access from a shell script. This file can also be modified by users (manually or via applications) to change the directories used. The xdg-user-dir CLI can be used to get the path of a typcial directory in the case where a user doesn't have the appropriate XDG environment variable set. 4.2. Bug/RFE Number(s): None. 4.3. In Scope: See above. 4.4. Out of Scope: See above. 4.5. Interfaces: -------------------------------------------------------------------- Exported Stability Comments -------------------------------------------------------------------- SUNWxdg-user-dirs Uncommitted Package name /usr/bin/xdg-user-dir Uncommitted /usr/bin/xdg-user-dirs-update Uncommitted /etc/xdg/user-dirs.conf Uncommitted Behaviour Configuration /etc/xdg/user-dirs.defaults Uncommitted System Default Dir Names ${HOME}/.config/user-dirs.dirs Uncommitted User's Dir Names at first creation. ${HOME}/.config/user-dirs.locale Uncommitted Locale used during first creation. XDG_DESKTOP_DIR Uncommitted Environment Variable XDG_DOWNLOAD_DIR Uncommitted Environment Variable XDG_TEMPLATES_DIR Uncommitted Environment Variable XDG_PUBLICSHARE_DIR Uncommitted Environment Variable XDG_DOCUMENTS_DIR Uncommitted Environment Variable XDG_MUSIC_DIR Uncommitted Environment Variable XDG_PICTURES_DIR Uncommitted Environment Variable XDG_VIDEOS_DIR Uncommitted Environment Variable -------------------------------------------------------------------- Imported Stability Comments -------------------------------------------------------------------- /usr/bin/bash External PSARC 1999/555 4.6. Doc Impact: Community provided man pages for each tool will be installed. 4.7. Admin/Config Impact: None. 4.8. HA Impact: None. 4.9. I18N/L10N Impact: The JDS team and the G11N are working together to evaluation and provide I18N/L10N support. 4.10. Packaging & Delivery: Adds new package, SUNWxdg-user-dirs, approx 58 KB and SUNWxdg-user-dirs-root, approx 13 KB. Package will go into SUNWCall, SUNWCXall and SUNWCuser clusters. 4.11. Security Impact: None. 4.12. Dependencies: The following versions of the imported interfaces are required: GNOME 2.20 Upwards 5. Reference Documents: XDG User Dirs Project - http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/xdg-user-dirs --Boundary_(ID_O6U/1qQeogBT6Hx0boOhHQ)-- From sacadmin Thu Feb 14 14:47:37 2008 Received: from sac.sfbay.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m1EMlbEX008536; Thu, 14 Feb 2008 14:47:37 -0800 (PST) Received: (from johnf@localhost) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/Submit) id m1EMlbSh008506; Thu, 14 Feb 2008 14:47:37 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 14:47:37 -0800 (PST) From: John Fischer Message-Id: <200802142247.m1EMlbSh008506@sac.sfbay.sun.com> To: LSARC-record@sac.sfbay.sun.com Cc: Dermot.McCluskey@sun.com Subject: XDG User Dirs [LSARC/2008/116 FastTrack timeout 02/21/2008] Status: RO Content-Length: 559 Template Version: @(#)sac_nextcase 1.64 07/13/07 SMI This information is Copyright 2008 Sun Microsystems 1. Introduction 1.1. Project/Component Working Name: XDG User Dirs 1.2. Name of Document Author/Supplier: Author: Darren Kenny 1.3 Date of This Document: 14 February, 2008 4. Technical Description See the case directory for more detail 6. Resources and Schedule 6.4. Steering Committee requested information 6.4.1. Consolidation C-team Name: JDS - Gnome 6.5. ARC review type: FastTrack 6.6. ARC Exposure: open From danek.duvall@sun.com Thu Feb 14 15:45:15 2008 Received: from sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m1ENjEjX012530 for ; Thu, 14 Feb 2008 15:45:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m1ENj03G003100 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:lsarc-ext@Sun.COM>; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 07:45:13 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JW900M075ZCIX00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for lsarc-ext@Sun.COM (ORCPT lsarc-ext@Sun.COM); Thu, 14 Feb 2008 15:45:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from dm-sfbay-01.sfbay.sun.com ([129.145.155.118]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JW900B115ZB28F0@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for lsarc-ext@Sun.COM (ORCPT lsarc-ext@Sun.COM); Thu, 14 Feb 2008 15:45:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from zruty.sfbay.sun.com (zruty.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.168.40]) by dm-sfbay-01.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m1ENj8vv006747; Thu, 14 Feb 2008 15:45:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from zruty.sfbay.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zruty.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.2+Sun/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m1ENj85E000682; Thu, 14 Feb 2008 15:45:08 -0800 (PST) Received: (from dduvall@localhost) by zruty.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.2+Sun/8.14.2/Submit) id m1ENj8eb000681; Thu, 14 Feb 2008 15:45:08 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 15:45:08 -0800 From: Danek Duvall Subject: Re: LSARC/2008/116 - XDG User Dirs In-reply-to: <47B4C631.9090603@sun.com> To: John Fischer Cc: lsarc-ext@sun.com, Dermot McCluskey , Darren Kenny Message-id: <20080214234508.GI22027@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <47B4C631.9090603@sun.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.16 (2007-06-27) Status: RO Content-Length: 993 On Thu, Feb 14, 2008 at 02:52:33PM -0800, John Fischer wrote: > XDG User Dirs is a tool to help manage "well known" user directories > like the desktop folder and the music folder. It also handles > localization (i.e. translation) of the filenames. What management does it do, other than translating the names? When it does do translation, what does that mean? Does it create a symlink from "Mein Musik" to "My Music"? Does it rename the directory? > Typically these directories are accessed in applications using the > Committed glib 2.14 function: > > g_get_user_special_dir() Do applications have to do something different to access the new directory names, or does g_get_user_special_dir() use the xdg files to figure out where to look? > $(XDG_CONFIG_HOME)/user-dirs.dirs (XDG_CONFIG_HOME defaults to > ~/.config) That seems *awfully* generic. Is that the standard value on real Linux systems? Danek From Darren.Kenny@sun.com Sun Feb 17 13:29:50 2008 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m1HLTobJ011790 for ; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 13:29:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m1HLTowg002305 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:lsarc-ext@sun.com>; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 13:29:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JWE00I03JPQ9Y00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for lsarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT lsarc-ext@Sun.COM); Sun, 17 Feb 2008 13:29:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from gmp-eb-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.6.21]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JWE009E6JPOSW70@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for lsarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT lsarc-ext@Sun.COM); Sun, 17 Feb 2008 13:29:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from fe-emea-09.sun.com (gmp-eb-lb-2-fe2.eu.sun.com [192.18.6.11]) by gmp-eb-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m1HLTmVb027371 for ; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 21:29:48 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.fe-emea-09.sun.com by fe-emea-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0JWE00901JGKFX00@fe-emea-09.sun.com> (original mail from Darren.Kenny@Sun.COM) for lsarc-ext@Sun.COM (ORCPT lsarc-ext@Sun.COM); Sun, 17 Feb 2008 21:29:48 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [129.150.121.192] by fe-emea-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0JWE0009CJPN5S40@fe-emea-09.sun.com>; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 21:29:48 +0000 (GMT) Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 21:29:30 +0000 From: Darren Kenny Subject: Re: LSARC/2008/116 - XDG User Dirs In-reply-to: <20080214234508.GI22027@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> Sender: Darren.Kenny@sun.com To: Danek Duvall Cc: John Fischer , lsarc-ext@sun.com, Dermot McCluskey Message-id: <47B8A73A.80503@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <47B4C631.9090603@sun.com> <20080214234508.GI22027@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (X11/20080128) Status: RO Content-Length: 2411 Hi Danek, Danek Duvall wrote: > On Thu, Feb 14, 2008 at 02:52:33PM -0800, John Fischer wrote: > >> XDG User Dirs is a tool to help manage "well known" user directories >> like the desktop folder and the music folder. It also handles >> localization (i.e. translation) of the filenames. > > What management does it do, other than translating the names? It maintains correct pointers to the directories, even if you happen to change locale between when you first logged in and when you next log in. > > When it does do translation, what does that mean? Does it create a symlink > from "Mein Musik" to "My Music"? Does it rename the directory? It doesn't create a sym-link. By default, it does nothing, only ensures that a reference to such a directory will find it, e.g. - If you log in in German, you will have the directory: Musik - If you then log in using English, a call to g_get_user_special_dir( G_USER_DIRECTORY_MUSIC ) will return ${HOME}/Musik rather than ${HOME}/Music There is a separate project, which will be integrated later, not now, called xdg-user-dirs-gtk that addresses handling the possible change of these directories to the current locale, firstly prompting the user on what their preference is. > >> Typically these directories are accessed in applications using the >> Committed glib 2.14 function: >> >> g_get_user_special_dir() > > Do applications have to do something different to access the new directory > names, or does g_get_user_special_dir() use the xdg files to figure out > where to look? g_get_user_special_dir() uses the XDG_ environment variables (e.g XDG_DOCUMENTS_DIR) or if that's not set, it will parse the value out of the ${HOME}/.config/user-dirs.conf. > >> $(XDG_CONFIG_HOME)/user-dirs.dirs (XDG_CONFIG_HOME defaults to >> ~/.config) > > That seems *awfully* generic. Is that the standard value on real Linux > systems? True, it is, but that's currently what is already in place on Linux, and Solaris, where this is currently already being used to store user-specific preferences for things like: - auto start programs - user-specific modification to menus The reason for the generic name, I'm guessing is that it's not specific to the desktop, but is meant to be independent of it. (GNOME, KDE and xfce desktop environments use these settings). Thanks, Darren. From Nicolas.Williams@sun.com Sun Feb 17 14:08:35 2008 Received: from sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m1HM8YuN013554 for ; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 14:08:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m1HM8QwY019431; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 06:08:28 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JWE00H05LI1TW00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 15:08:25 -0700 (MST) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM ([129.153.128.104]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JWE00F8FLI15Q60@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 15:08:25 -0700 (MST) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m1HM8Oha012828; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 16:08:25 -0600 (CST) Received: (from nw141292@localhost) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1/Submit) id m1HM8ODk012827; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 16:08:24 -0600 (CST) Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 16:08:24 -0600 From: Nicolas Williams Subject: Re: LSARC/2008/116 - XDG User Dirs In-reply-to: <47B4C631.9090603@sun.com> To: John Fischer Cc: lsarc-ext@sun.com, Dermot McCluskey , Darren Kenny Message-id: <20080217220824.GN17042@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <47B4C631.9090603@sun.com> X-Authentication-warning: binky.Central.Sun.COM: nw141292 set sender to Nicolas.Williams@sun.com using -f User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.7i Status: RO Content-Length: 2493 On Thu, Feb 14, 2008 at 02:52:33PM -0800, John Fischer wrote: > The command xdg-user-dirs-update is run very early in the > login phase. This program reads a configuration file, and a set of How early? > default directories. It then creates localized versions of these > directories in the users home directory and sets up a config file in > $(XDG_CONFIG_HOME)/user-dirs.dirs (XDG_CONFIG_HOME defaults to > ~/.config) that applications can read to find these directories. "It then creates localized versions of these directories..." Really? So if I log in using a different locale than my usual then I'll end up with new directories that I'll never use when I go back to my usual locale?! That doesn't sound right. Or will $(XDG_CONFIG_HOME)/user-dirs.dirs allow me to avoid this issue altogether? But I see that it's hard to do much better. Declaring some English words to be well-known directory names that get localized by the GUIs will probably be very difficult to implement in all the right places, and confusing when some GUI fails to localize them. If we assume that most users are not multi-lingual (much less polyglots) then I think this is probably OK. What do other operating systems do about this problem? > Sysadmins can configure things by editing /etc/xdg/user-dirs.conf. How will this be documented? > At the moment there are only two settings, you can disable the whole > thing, and you can specify the charset encoding used for filenames. Why should a charset be specified here? Presumably the *language* to localize these directory names to comes from the locale chosen by the user, so why can't the charset come from the locale too? > They can also set or change the default directories and their initial > values in /etc/xdg/user-dirs.defaults. How will this be documented? > $(XDG_CONFIG_HOME)/user-dirs.dirs specifies the current set of > directories for the user. This file is in a shell format, so its easy > to access from a shell script. This file can also be modified by users > (manually or via applications) to change the directories used. How will this be documented? What's XDG_CONFIG_HOME? What should this shell script do? Set variables? Will these be exported? What will read this file? Will shell scripts read this file? If so, what credentials and privilege will those shell scripts be running with? Nico -- From Darren.Kenny@sun.com Tue Feb 19 00:44:36 2008 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m1J8iagi004003 for ; Tue, 19 Feb 2008 00:44:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m1J8ia2C026498 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:lsarc-ext@sun.com>; Tue, 19 Feb 2008 00:44:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JWH002039MBIC00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for lsarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT lsarc-ext@sun.com); Tue, 19 Feb 2008 00:44:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from gmp-eb-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.6.21]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JWH00C8H9MA8E30@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for lsarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT lsarc-ext@sun.com); Tue, 19 Feb 2008 00:44:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from fe-emea-10.sun.com (gmp-eb-lb-2-fe1.eu.sun.com [192.18.6.10]) by gmp-eb-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m1J8iWtS019721 for ; Tue, 19 Feb 2008 08:44:34 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.fe-emea-10.sun.com by fe-emea-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0JWH00B019LK3Y00@fe-emea-10.sun.com> (original mail from Darren.Kenny@Sun.COM) for lsarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT lsarc-ext@sun.com); Tue, 19 Feb 2008 08:44:34 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [129.156.226.199] by fe-emea-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0JWH0010N9M2UE30@fe-emea-10.sun.com> for lsarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT lsarc-ext@sun.com); Tue, 19 Feb 2008 08:44:26 +0000 (GMT) Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 08:44:07 +0000 From: Darren Kenny Subject: Re: LSARC/2008/116 - XDG User Dirs In-reply-to: <20080217220824.GN17042@Sun.COM> Sender: Darren.Kenny@sun.com To: Nicolas Williams Cc: John Fischer , lsarc-ext@sun.com, Dermot McCluskey Message-id: <47BA96D7.6060800@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Boundary_(ID_JGjionX2tEuiVVRxvA0aqA)" X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <47B4C631.9090603@sun.com> <20080217220824.GN17042@Sun.COM> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (X11/20080128) Status: RO Content-Length: 5479 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_JGjionX2tEuiVVRxvA0aqA) Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hi Nicholas, Nicolas Williams wrote: > On Thu, Feb 14, 2008 at 02:52:33PM -0800, John Fischer wrote: >> The command xdg-user-dirs-update is run very early in the >> login phase. This program reads a configuration file, and a set of > > How early? At start up of the session, it's an autostart script that is run by gnome-session. > >> default directories. It then creates localized versions of these >> directories in the users home directory and sets up a config file in >> $(XDG_CONFIG_HOME)/user-dirs.dirs (XDG_CONFIG_HOME defaults to >> ~/.config) that applications can read to find these directories. > > "It then creates localized versions of these directories..." > > Really? > > So if I log in using a different locale than my usual then I'll end up > with new directories that I'll never use when I go back to my usual > locale?! That doesn't sound right. Or will > $(XDG_CONFIG_HOME)/user-dirs.dirs allow me to avoid this issue > altogether? Sorry, to be clearer, on first-run it will create the directories, on subsequent runs (even in alternative locales) it will avoid creation of new directories based on the configuration in the user-dirs.dirs file. > > But I see that it's hard to do much better. Declaring some English > words to be well-known directory names that get localized by the GUIs > will probably be very difficult to implement in all the right places, > and confusing when some GUI fails to localize them. Yes, that's one of the problems it aims to address. > > If we assume that most users are not multi-lingual (much less polyglots) > then I think this is probably OK. Hmm - it's obviously enough of an issue that someone came up with a generic solution - but it's also important to note that this is not just about locale, but also addresses the variation of the names of these directories in different freedesktop.org compliant desktops (e.g. KDE, GNOME, xfce). > > What do other operating systems do about this problem? In Windows it's not really been much of an issue since it has had with a different install set for each language - but I believe that this has been fixed in Vista, but I've not experienced it enough to confirm. As for MacOS/X - I also have little experience with it in this regards. > >> Sysadmins can configure things by editing /etc/xdg/user-dirs.conf. > > How will this be documented? Via manpage for xdg-user-dirs-update, but maybe there is sufficient need for a separate manpage, e.g. user-dirs.conf? > >> At the moment there are only two settings, you can disable the whole >> thing, and you can specify the charset encoding used for filenames. > > Why should a charset be specified here? Presumably the *language* to > localize these directory names to comes from the locale chosen by the > user, so why can't the charset come from the locale too? In GNOME, the charset used for filenames is always utf-8 encoded (it can be overridden if needed through environment variables). In the case of XDG user dirs, it is not a GNOME applications, but desktop independent, hence it doesn't use glib, so we need a way to configure the charset to use - that is the purpose of setting the charset at the system level. Saying that, we actually wouldn't expect this to be changed much, and should always be utf-8. > >> They can also set or change the default directories and their initial >> values in /etc/xdg/user-dirs.defaults. > > How will this be documented? > >> $(XDG_CONFIG_HOME)/user-dirs.dirs specifies the current set of >> directories for the user. This file is in a shell format, so its easy >> to access from a shell script. This file can also be modified by users >> (manually or via applications) to change the directories used. > > How will this be documented? Both will be documented in the xdg-user-dirs-update manpage. > > What's XDG_CONFIG_HOME? It's ${HOME}/.config by default. > > What should this shell script do? Set variables? Will these be > exported? What will read this file? Will shell scripts read this file? > If so, what credentials and privilege will those shell scripts be > running with? It simply sets variables, attached is a sample - it isn't run by default, only parsed programatically. Should someone decided to source it, they will have to export the variables themselves, should they desire to. Thanks, Darren. --Boundary_(ID_JGjionX2tEuiVVRxvA0aqA) Content-type: text/plain; name=user-dirs.dirs Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline; filename=user-dirs.dirs # This file is written by xdg-user-dirs-update # If you want to change or add directories, just edit the line you're # interested in. All local changes will be retained on the next run # Format is XDG_xxx_DIR="$HOME/yyy", where yyy is a shell-escaped # homedir-relative path, or XDG_xxx_DIR="/yyy", where /yyy is an # absolute path. No other format is supported. # XDG_DESKTOP_DIR="$HOME/Desktop" XDG_DOWNLOAD_DIR="$HOME/Download" XDG_TEMPLATES_DIR="$HOME/Templates" XDG_PUBLICSHARE_DIR="$HOME/Public" XDG_DOCUMENTS_DIR="$HOME/Documents" XDG_MUSIC_DIR="$HOME/Music" XDG_PICTURES_DIR="$HOME/Pictures" XDG_VIDEOS_DIR="$HOME/Videos" --Boundary_(ID_JGjionX2tEuiVVRxvA0aqA)-- From John.Plocher@sun.com Tue Feb 19 08:57:18 2008 Received: from sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m1JGvHp0018291 for ; Tue, 19 Feb 2008 08:57:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m1JGvDBS028026 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:lsarc-ext@sun.com>; Wed, 20 Feb 2008 00:57:16 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JWH0041BWFDP600@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for lsarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT lsarc-ext@sun.com); Tue, 19 Feb 2008 08:57:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from sca-es-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.43.133]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JWH00LGAWFADNB0@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for lsarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT lsarc-ext@sun.com); Tue, 19 Feb 2008 08:57:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from fe-sfbay-09.sun.com ([192.18.43.129]) by sca-es-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m1JGvAdY022664 for ; Tue, 19 Feb 2008 08:57:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from conversion-daemon.fe-sfbay-09.sun.com by fe-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0JWH00601WEWE000@fe-sfbay-09.sun.com> (original mail from John.Plocher@Sun.COM) for lsarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT lsarc-ext@sun.com); Tue, 19 Feb 2008 08:57:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from wp668.local ([208.74.177.212]) by fe-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0JWH00AD6WF9IRF0@fe-sfbay-09.sun.com> for lsarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT lsarc-ext@sun.com); Tue, 19 Feb 2008 08:57:10 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 08:57:09 -0800 From: John Plocher Subject: Re: LSARC/2008/116 - XDG User Dirs In-reply-to: <47BA96D7.6060800@Sun.COM> Sender: John.Plocher@sun.com To: Darren Kenny Cc: Nicolas Williams , John Fischer , Dermot McCluskey , lsarc-ext@sun.com Message-id: <47BB0A65.4020608@Sun.Com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <47B4C631.9090603@sun.com> <20080217220824.GN17042@Sun.COM> <47BA96D7.6060800@Sun.COM> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Macintosh/20071031) Status: RO Content-Length: 1484 Darren Kenny wrote: > Hmm - it's obviously enough of an issue that someone came up with a generic > solution - but it's also important to note that this is not just about locale, > but also addresses the variation of the names of these directories in different > freedesktop.org compliant desktops (e.g. KDE, GNOME, xfce). So, in a postulated, but as yet hypothetical future opensolaris system that has both GNOME and KDE, what happens in my home dir when I switch back and forth between the two? I *hope* I don't end up with two parallel directory sets, one for each desktop flavor: "I downloaded it onto my Desktop under KDE and it isn't there anymore after I go back to GNOME" is the behavior that really should be avoided... > It's ${HOME}/.config by default. #include "John's please don't fill my $HOME with your crap Gripe" It would really be nice (TM) if we could get all these @##@$% features to put their crap^H^H^H^H config files one level deeper under a common .desktop or .gnome or .whatever parent. so my home dir doesn't end up with hundreds of opaque pieces of trash that some stupid application decided to leave behind. Better yet would be a way to not need the files in the first place. (My homedir today has over 200 "dotfiles" in it - and I have no real idea whether any of them are optional or obsolete and can be deleted or if my desktop/session will die a horrible death if I so much as touch them... #end rant From kmcdonald@egenera.com Tue Feb 19 09:38:44 2008 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m1JHciv7019002 for ; Tue, 19 Feb 2008 09:38:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m1JHcfPb011940; Tue, 19 Feb 2008 09:38:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JWH00401YCGDI00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Tue, 19 Feb 2008 10:38:40 -0700 (MST) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.98.31]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JWH000QSYCGMC40@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Tue, 19 Feb 2008 10:38:40 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay42i.sun.com ([192.5.209.72]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m1JHI3mT002121; Tue, 19 Feb 2008 17:38:39 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mms49es.sun.com ([160.41.221.233] [160.41.221.233]) by relay42i.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-762594; Tue, 19 Feb 2008 17:38:39 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay43i.sun.com (relay43i.sun.com [192.5.209.74]) by mms49es.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-3125; Tue, 19 Feb 2008 17:38:38 +0000 (Z) Received: from webaccess.egenera.com ([63.139.209.15] [63.139.209.15]) by relay4i.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-12707401; Tue, 19 Feb 2008 17:38:38 +0000 (Z) Received: from [172.23.2.161] ([172.23.2.161]) by webaccess.egenera.com over TLS secured channel with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Tue, 19 Feb 2008 12:39:08 -0500 Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 12:39:06 -0500 From: Kyle McDonald Subject: Re: LSARC/2008/116 - XDG User Dirs In-reply-to: <47BB0A65.4020608@Sun.Com> To: John Plocher Cc: Darren Kenny , John Fischer , Dermot McCluskey , lsarc-ext@sun.com Message-id: <47BB143A.3000701@Egenera.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== X-Antispam: No, score=-0.2/5.0, scanned in 0.048sec at (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smf-spamd v1.3.1 - http://smfs.sf.net/ References: <47B4C631.9090603@sun.com> <20080217220824.GN17042@Sun.COM> <47BA96D7.6060800@Sun.COM> <47BB0A65.4020608@Sun.Com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Windows/20071031) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 19 Feb 2008 17:39:08.0435 (UTC) FILETIME=[54862630:01C8731E] Status: RO Content-Length: 923 John Plocher wrote: > #include "John's please don't fill my $HOME with your crap Gripe" > > It would really be nice (TM) if we could get all these @##@$% > features to put their crap^H^H^H^H config files one level deeper > under a common .desktop or .gnome or .whatever parent. so my > home dir doesn't end up with hundreds of opaque pieces of trash > that some stupid application decided to leave behind. Better yet > would be a way to not need the files in the first place. > (My homedir today has over 200 "dotfiles" in it - and I have no > real idea whether any of them are optional or obsolete and can be > deleted or if my desktop/session will die a horrible death if I > so much as touch them... > > #end rant > +1 (I'd +1,000,000 if I could. ;) ) > _______________________________________________ > opensolaris-arc mailing list > opensolaris-arc@opensolaris.org > From Nicolas.Williams@sun.com Tue Feb 19 09:42:08 2008 Received: from newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (newsunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.245]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m1JHg8fH019344 for ; Tue, 19 Feb 2008 09:42:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m1JHg4GK000206; Tue, 19 Feb 2008 10:42:04 -0700 (MST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JWH00401YI4OX00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Tue, 19 Feb 2008 10:42:04 -0700 (MST) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM ([129.153.128.104]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JWH00049YI3ME50@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Tue, 19 Feb 2008 10:42:03 -0700 (MST) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m1JHg3Z6014226; Tue, 19 Feb 2008 11:42:03 -0600 (CST) Received: (from nw141292@localhost) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1/Submit) id m1JHg3Ar014225; Tue, 19 Feb 2008 11:42:03 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 11:42:03 -0600 From: Nicolas Williams Subject: Re: LSARC/2008/116 - XDG User Dirs In-reply-to: <47BA96D7.6060800@Sun.COM> To: Darren Kenny Cc: John Fischer , lsarc-ext@sun.com, Dermot McCluskey Message-id: <20080219174203.GL17042@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <47B4C631.9090603@sun.com> <20080217220824.GN17042@Sun.COM> <47BA96D7.6060800@Sun.COM> X-Authentication-warning: binky.Central.Sun.COM: nw141292 set sender to Nicolas.Williams@sun.com using -f User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.7i Status: RO Content-Length: 1654 On Tue, Feb 19, 2008 at 08:44:07AM +0000, Darren Kenny wrote: > Nicolas Williams wrote: > >> At the moment there are only two settings, you can disable the whole > >> thing, and you can specify the charset encoding used for filenames. > > > > Why should a charset be specified here? Presumably the *language* to > > localize these directory names to comes from the locale chosen by the > > user, so why can't the charset come from the locale too? > > In GNOME, the charset used for filenames is always utf-8 encoded (it can be > overridden if needed through environment variables). OK. > In the case of XDG user dirs, it is not a GNOME applications, but desktop > independent, hence it doesn't use glib, so we need a way to configure the > charset to use - that is the purpose of setting the charset at the system level. I don't get this. No matter what login program and desktop environment is used there always is a user-selected locale. Therefore, why not honor the user's locale choice by taking the charset from the locale? > Saying that, we actually wouldn't expect this to be changed much, and should > always be utf-8. Someone's bound to set this and a user is going to login using a locale with a different charset, and things won't look right. That the sysadmin can set the charset here is obnoxious, but if the only way to use a charset other than UTF-8 when the user selects a non-UTF-8 locale, then that'd be a serious bug. At the very least we need to support non-UTF-8 locale selections by the user without having to update this file, and if that's done then why bother with this system-wide setting? Nico -- From Darren.Kenny@sun.com Tue Feb 19 10:41:36 2008 Received: from newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (newsunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.245]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m1JIfaKR022469 for ; Tue, 19 Feb 2008 10:41:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m1JIfZf5017734 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:lsarc-ext@sun.com>; Tue, 19 Feb 2008 11:41:35 -0700 (MST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JWI0080N19BVQ00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for lsarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT lsarc-ext@sun.com); Tue, 19 Feb 2008 11:41:35 -0700 (MST) Received: from gmp-eb-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.6.24]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JWI000HC199MA90@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for lsarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT lsarc-ext@sun.com); Tue, 19 Feb 2008 11:41:34 -0700 (MST) Received: from fe-emea-10.sun.com (gmp-eb-lb-2-fe1.eu.sun.com [192.18.6.10]) by gmp-eb-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m1JIfXpv020288 for ; Tue, 19 Feb 2008 18:41:33 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.fe-emea-10.sun.com by fe-emea-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0JWI003011810W00@fe-emea-10.sun.com> (original mail from Darren.Kenny@Sun.COM) for lsarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT lsarc-ext@sun.com); Tue, 19 Feb 2008 18:41:33 +0000 (GMT) Received: from Nokia-N810-50-2 ([86.42.220.253]) by fe-emea-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0JWI00G9I18UVWD0@fe-emea-10.sun.com> for lsarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT lsarc-ext@sun.com); Tue, 19 Feb 2008 18:41:20 +0000 (GMT) Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 18:40:29 +0000 From: Darren Kenny Subject: Re: LSARC/2008/116 - XDG User Dirs In-reply-to: <47BB0A65.4020608@Sun.Com> Sender: Darren.Kenny@sun.com To: John Plocher Cc: Nicolas Williams , John Fischer , Dermot McCluskey , lsarc-ext@sun.com Message-id: <20080219184029.75db7980@Nokia-N810-50-2> Organization: Sun Microsystems MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.3.0 (GTK+ 2.10.12; arm-unknown-linux-gnueabi) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <47B4C631.9090603@sun.com> <20080217220824.GN17042@Sun.COM> <47BA96D7.6060800@Sun.COM> <47BB0A65.4020608@Sun.Com> Status: RO Content-Length: 2098 On Tue, 19 Feb 2008 08:57:09 -0800 John Plocher wrote: > Darren Kenny wrote: > > Hmm - it's obviously enough of an issue that someone came up with a generic > > solution - but it's also important to note that this is not just about > > locale, but also addresses the variation of the names of these directories > > in different freedesktop.org compliant desktops (e.g. KDE, GNOME, xfce). > > So, in a postulated, but as yet hypothetical future opensolaris > system that has both GNOME and KDE, what happens in my home dir > when I switch back and forth between the two? I *hope* I don't > end up with two parallel directory sets, one for each desktop > flavor: "I downloaded it onto my Desktop under KDE and it isn't > there anymore after I go back to GNOME" is the behavior that really > should be avoided... > Maybe I'm not being clear enough - that is exactly the problem that this is meant to solve, wneere both desktop environments will use the same directories. So if you have a $HOME/MyDownloads defined as your preferred XDG_DOWNLOAD_DIR then both KDE & GNOME will honour that. > > > It's ${HOME}/.config by default. > > > #include "John's please don't fill my $HOME with your crap Gripe" > > It would really be nice (TM) if we could get all these @##@$% > features to put their crap^H^H^H^H config files one level deeper > under a common .desktop or .gnome or .whatever parent. so my > home dir doesn't end up with hundreds of opaque pieces of trash > that some stupid application decided to leave behind. Better yet > would be a way to not need the files in the first place. > (My homedir today has over 200 "dotfiles" in it - and I have no > real idea whether any of them are optional or obsolete and can be > deleted or if my desktop/session will die a horrible death if I > so much as touch them... > > #end rant But that's what this is - XDG config, which is neither GNOME or KDE specific uses .config as the root of it's config - if you use JDS you most likely already have that dir... Thanks, Darren From Nicolas.Williams@sun.com Tue Feb 19 10:49:05 2008 Received: from newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (newsunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.245]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m1JIn5H5022847 for ; Tue, 19 Feb 2008 10:49:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m1JIn13E019731; Tue, 19 Feb 2008 11:49:01 -0700 (MST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JWI009031LPG400@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Tue, 19 Feb 2008 11:49:01 -0700 (MST) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM ([129.153.128.104]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JWI000CN1LOMAA0@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Tue, 19 Feb 2008 11:49:00 -0700 (MST) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m1JIn09q014275; Tue, 19 Feb 2008 12:49:00 -0600 (CST) Received: (from nw141292@localhost) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1/Submit) id m1JIn0Hq014274; Tue, 19 Feb 2008 12:49:00 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 12:49:00 -0600 From: Nicolas Williams Subject: Re: LSARC/2008/116 - XDG User Dirs In-reply-to: <20080219184029.75db7980@Nokia-N810-50-2> To: Darren Kenny Cc: John Plocher , John Fischer , Dermot McCluskey , lsarc-ext@sun.com Message-id: <20080219184859.GM17042@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <47B4C631.9090603@sun.com> <20080217220824.GN17042@Sun.COM> <47BA96D7.6060800@Sun.COM> <47BB0A65.4020608@Sun.Com> <20080219184029.75db7980@Nokia-N810-50-2> X-Authentication-warning: binky.Central.Sun.COM: nw141292 set sender to Nicolas.Williams@sun.com using -f User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.7i Status: RO Content-Length: 1260 On Tue, Feb 19, 2008 at 06:40:29PM +0000, Darren Kenny wrote: > On Tue, 19 Feb 2008 08:57:09 -0800 > John Plocher wrote: > > > It's ${HOME}/.config by default. > > > > #include "John's please don't fill my $HOME with your crap Gripe" > > > > It would really be nice (TM) if we could get all these @##@$% > > features to put their crap^H^H^H^H config files one level deeper > > under a common .desktop or .gnome or .whatever parent. so my > > home dir doesn't end up with hundreds of opaque pieces of trash > > that some stupid application decided to leave behind. Better yet > > would be a way to not need the files in the first place. > > (My homedir today has over 200 "dotfiles" in it - and I have no > > real idea whether any of them are optional or obsolete and can be > > deleted or if my desktop/session will die a horrible death if I > > so much as touch them... > > > > #end rant > > But that's what this is - XDG config, which is neither GNOME or KDE specific > uses .config as the root of it's config - if you use JDS you most likely > already have that dir... What else goes in ~/.config/? In mine the only thing is gtk-2.0/gtkfilechooser. Is there a precedent for ~/.config? From John.Plocher@sun.com Tue Feb 19 11:02:14 2008 Received: from newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (newsunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.245]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m1JJ2DT7023300 for ; Tue, 19 Feb 2008 11:02:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m1JJ2DW2024316 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:lsarc-ext@sun.com>; Tue, 19 Feb 2008 12:02:13 -0700 (MST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JWI0090527PJ100@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for lsarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT lsarc-ext@sun.com); Tue, 19 Feb 2008 11:02:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from sca-es-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.43.133]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JWI007U027O9B30@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for lsarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT lsarc-ext@sun.com); Tue, 19 Feb 2008 11:02:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from fe-sfbay-09.sun.com ([192.18.43.129]) by sca-es-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m1JJ2CvY010791 for ; Tue, 19 Feb 2008 11:02:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from conversion-daemon.fe-sfbay-09.sun.com by fe-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0JWI009011WA8P00@fe-sfbay-09.sun.com> (original mail from John.Plocher@Sun.COM) for lsarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT lsarc-ext@sun.com); Tue, 19 Feb 2008 11:02:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from wp668.local ([208.74.177.212]) by fe-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0JWI00H4Y27KO510@fe-sfbay-09.sun.com> for lsarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT lsarc-ext@sun.com); Tue, 19 Feb 2008 11:02:08 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 11:02:07 -0800 From: John Plocher Subject: Re: LSARC/2008/116 - XDG User Dirs In-reply-to: <20080219184029.75db7980@Nokia-N810-50-2> Sender: John.Plocher@sun.com To: Darren Kenny Cc: Nicolas Williams , John Fischer , Dermot McCluskey , lsarc-ext@sun.com Message-id: <47BB27AF.9010704@Sun.Com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <47B4C631.9090603@sun.com> <20080217220824.GN17042@Sun.COM> <47BA96D7.6060800@Sun.COM> <47BB0A65.4020608@Sun.Com> <20080219184029.75db7980@Nokia-N810-50-2> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Macintosh/20071031) Status: RO Content-Length: 1227 Darren Kenny wrote: > Maybe I'm not being clear enough - that is exactly the problem that this is > meant to solve, Great! It wasn't clear to me. >>> It's ${HOME}/.config by default. >> >> #include "John's please don't fill my $HOME with your crap Gripe" > But that's what this is - XDG config, which is neither GNOME or KDE specific I have the 202 ".files" in my $home, including the following 50-some desktop/JDS related ones. Making yet another one with an overly generic name seems wrong - why not use something like .desktop, and find a way for *EVERY* packaged desktop app in OpenSolaris to use it? -John .Trash .Xauthority .Xdefaults .Xpdefaults .crash_report_preview .crash_reportrc .desksetdefaults .dir_colors .dt .dtprofile .enlightenment .esd_auth .firefox .fonts.cache-1 .gaim .gconf .gconf26 .gconfd .gimp-1.2 .gimp-2.0 .gimp-2.3 .gnome .gnome-desktop .gnome2 .gnome2_private .gnupg .gstreamer-0.10 .gstreamer-0.8 .gtk-bookmarks .gtkrc-1.2-gnome2 .kde .kderc .local .lpselect .mediaplayer .metacity .mime.types .mime.types_old .mozilla .nautilus .netscape .netscape6 .recently-used .sawfish .sd_java .sd_java115 .sd_java13102 .sd_java142 .sd_javaws10102 .themes .thumbnails .thunderbird .xscreensaver From Darren.Kenny@sun.com Tue Feb 19 11:03:50 2008 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m1JJ3nkH023342 for ; Tue, 19 Feb 2008 11:03:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m1JJ3jWF002845 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:lsarc-ext@sun.com>; Tue, 19 Feb 2008 19:03:48 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JWI00A012ABL300@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for lsarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT lsarc-ext@sun.com); Tue, 19 Feb 2008 12:03:47 -0700 (MST) Received: from gmp-eb-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.6.24]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JWI000PV2A9M7E0@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for lsarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT lsarc-ext@sun.com); Tue, 19 Feb 2008 12:03:46 -0700 (MST) Received: from fe-emea-09.sun.com (gmp-eb-lb-2-fe1.eu.sun.com [192.18.6.10]) by gmp-eb-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m1JJ3jxb021469 for ; Tue, 19 Feb 2008 19:03:45 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.fe-emea-09.sun.com by fe-emea-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0JWI0080127UF700@fe-emea-09.sun.com> (original mail from Darren.Kenny@Sun.COM) for lsarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT lsarc-ext@sun.com); Tue, 19 Feb 2008 19:03:45 +0000 (GMT) Received: from Nokia-N810-50-2 ([86.42.220.253]) by fe-emea-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0JWI004NV2A7F4B0@fe-emea-09.sun.com> for lsarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT lsarc-ext@sun.com); Tue, 19 Feb 2008 19:03:45 +0000 (GMT) Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 19:02:20 +0000 From: Darren Kenny Subject: Re: LSARC/2008/116 - XDG User Dirs In-reply-to: <20080219174203.GL17042@Sun.COM> Sender: Darren.Kenny@sun.com To: Nicolas Williams Cc: John Fischer , lsarc-ext@sun.com, Dermot McCluskey Message-id: <20080219190220.61a32693@Nokia-N810-50-2> Organization: Sun Microsystems MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.3.0 (GTK+ 2.10.12; arm-unknown-linux-gnueabi) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <47B4C631.9090603@sun.com> <20080217220824.GN17042@Sun.COM> <47BA96D7.6060800@Sun.COM> <20080219174203.GL17042@Sun.COM> Status: RO Content-Length: 2742 On Tue, 19 Feb 2008 11:42:03 -0600 Nicolas Williams wrote: > On Tue, Feb 19, 2008 at 08:44:07AM +0000, Darren Kenny wrote: > > Nicolas Williams wrote: > > >> At the moment there are only two settings, you can disable the > > >> whole thing, and you can specify the charset encoding used for filenames. > > > > > > Why should a charset be specified here? Presumably the *language* to > > > localize these directory names to comes from the locale chosen by the > > > user, so why can't the charset come from the locale too? > > > > In GNOME, the charset used for filenames is always utf-8 encoded (it can be > > overridden if needed through environment variables). > > OK. > > > In the case of XDG user dirs, it is not a GNOME applications, but desktop > > independent, hence it doesn't use glib, so we need a way to configure the > > charset to use - that is the purpose of setting the charset at the system > > level. > > I don't get this. No matter what login program and desktop environment > is used there always is a user-selected locale. Therefore, why not > honor the user's locale choice by taking the charset from the locale? Because that's what causes the confusion when switching locales in the first place. By a desktop env consistently using the same charset for the file names then this eliminates one of the causes of issues when people using the same locale but different charset, usualy without realising it see wierd chars in their filenames. > > > Saying that, we actually wouldn't expect this to be changed much, and should > > always be utf-8. > > Someone's bound to set this and a user is going to login using a locale > with a different charset, and things won't look right. Well, I coukd put in a warning or comment against doing it, would that help? > > That the sysadmin can set the charset here is obnoxious, but if the only > way to use a charset other than UTF-8 when the user selects a non-UTF-8 > locale, then that'd be a serious bug. How so? GNOME or KDE wont acknowledge that encoding either at the low levels of glib, but will re-encode for presentation to the user. To use utf-8 like this is consistent with the current behaviour of these environments. > > At the very least we need to support non-UTF-8 locale selections by the > user without having to update this file, and if that's done then why > bother with this system-wide setting? > But we do, it's only the file-system representation that's utf-8, the UI will be, if anything, more consistent in it's presentation to the user in the locale of their choosing -it's much easier to convert from utf-8 to a non-utf-8 locale than from one unknown locale to the current locale. Thanks, Darren. From Nicolas.Williams@sun.com Tue Feb 19 11:18:04 2008 Received: from sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m1JJI3ie023491 for ; Tue, 19 Feb 2008 11:18:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m1JJHsZ3025940; Wed, 20 Feb 2008 03:17:58 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JWI00B092XUOO00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Tue, 19 Feb 2008 12:17:54 -0700 (MST) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM ([129.153.128.104]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JWI000072XTM8E0@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Tue, 19 Feb 2008 12:17:53 -0700 (MST) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m1JJHrXi014312; Tue, 19 Feb 2008 13:17:53 -0600 (CST) Received: (from nw141292@localhost) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1/Submit) id m1JJHrSL014311; Tue, 19 Feb 2008 13:17:53 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 13:17:53 -0600 From: Nicolas Williams Subject: Re: LSARC/2008/116 - XDG User Dirs In-reply-to: <20080219190220.61a32693@Nokia-N810-50-2> To: Darren Kenny Cc: John Fischer , lsarc-ext@sun.com, Dermot McCluskey Message-id: <20080219191752.GN17042@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <47B4C631.9090603@sun.com> <20080217220824.GN17042@Sun.COM> <47BA96D7.6060800@Sun.COM> <20080219174203.GL17042@Sun.COM> <20080219190220.61a32693@Nokia-N810-50-2> X-Authentication-warning: binky.Central.Sun.COM: nw141292 set sender to Nicolas.Williams@sun.com using -f User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.7i Status: RO Content-Length: 3013 On Tue, Feb 19, 2008 at 07:02:20PM +0000, Darren Kenny wrote: > On Tue, 19 Feb 2008 11:42:03 -0600 > Nicolas Williams wrote: > > > In the case of XDG user dirs, it is not a GNOME applications, but desktop > > > independent, hence it doesn't use glib, so we need a way to configure the > > > charset to use - that is the purpose of setting the charset at the system > > > level. > > > > I don't get this. No matter what login program and desktop environment > > is used there always is a user-selected locale. Therefore, why not > > honor the user's locale choice by taking the charset from the locale? > > Because that's what causes the confusion when switching locales in the first > place. By a desktop env consistently using the same charset for the file names > then this eliminates one of the causes of issues when people using the same > locale but different charset, usualy without realising it see wierd chars in > their filenames. Picking different locales with different charsets will lead to confusion here no matter what. > > > Saying that, we actually wouldn't expect this to be changed much, and should > > > always be utf-8. > > > > Someone's bound to set this and a user is going to login using a locale > > with a different charset, and things won't look right. > > Well, I coukd put in a warning or comment against doing it, would that help? Or guidance on when to use it. > > > > That the sysadmin can set the charset here is obnoxious, but if the only > > way to use a charset other than UTF-8 when the user selects a non-UTF-8 > > locale, then that'd be a serious bug. > > How so? GNOME or KDE wont acknowledge that encoding either at the low levels of > glib, but will re-encode for presentation to the user. To use utf-8 like this > is consistent with the current behaviour of these environments. How will GNOME/KDE re-encode non-UTF-8 filenames? How can they know what charset was used for them? Ah, I think I get it -- see below. > > At the very least we need to support non-UTF-8 locale selections by the > > user without having to update this file, and if that's done then why > > bother with this system-wide setting? > > But we do, it's only the file-system representation that's utf-8, the UI will > be, if anything, more consistent in it's presentation to the user in the locale > of their choosing -it's much easier to convert from utf-8 to a non-utf-8 > locale than from one unknown locale to the current locale. Now I get the impression that xdg-user-dirs-update will default to using UTF-8 no matter what the locale is. If so, that should be in the case materials and docs, no? And the dependence on GUIs to a) assume UTF-8 is used for filenames, b) convert to the user's locale's codeset, should be documented as well. Is there precedent for GUIs/desktop environments assuming that filesystem object names are encoded in UTF-8? Not that I think there's a better way to do this, but that this needs to be documented. Nico -- From Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com Tue Feb 19 11:27:43 2008 Received: from sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m1JJRg57023811 for ; Tue, 19 Feb 2008 11:27:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m1JJRcWh029066 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:lsarc-ext@sun.com>; Wed, 20 Feb 2008 03:27:41 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JWI00A053E4DN00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for lsarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT lsarc-ext@sun.com); Tue, 19 Feb 2008 11:27:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from sca-es-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.43.132]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JWI007683E39C50@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for lsarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT lsarc-ext@sun.com); Tue, 19 Feb 2008 11:27:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from fe-sfbay-09.sun.com ([192.18.43.129]) by sca-es-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m1JJRdpW003931 for ; Tue, 19 Feb 2008 11:27:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from conversion-daemon.fe-sfbay-09.sun.com by fe-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0JWH00L01YWVGR00@fe-sfbay-09.sun.com> (original mail from Alan.Coopersmith@Sun.COM) for lsarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT lsarc-ext@sun.com); Tue, 19 Feb 2008 11:27:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from [129.146.108.211] by fe-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0JWI00HNO3DZO5F0@fe-sfbay-09.sun.com> for lsarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT lsarc-ext@sun.com); Tue, 19 Feb 2008 11:27:36 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 11:27:35 -0800 From: Alan Coopersmith Subject: Re: LSARC/2008/116 - XDG User Dirs In-reply-to: <47BB27AF.9010704@Sun.Com> Sender: Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com To: John Plocher Cc: Darren Kenny , Nicolas Williams , John Fischer , Dermot McCluskey , lsarc-ext@sun.com Message-id: <47BB2DA7.1010809@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.1 References: <47B4C631.9090603@sun.com> <20080217220824.GN17042@Sun.COM> <47BA96D7.6060800@Sun.COM> <47BB0A65.4020608@Sun.Com> <20080219184029.75db7980@Nokia-N810-50-2> <47BB27AF.9010704@Sun.Com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (X11/20071203) Status: RO Content-Length: 935 John Plocher wrote: > I have the 202 ".files" in my $home, including the following > 50-some desktop/JDS related ones. Making yet another one > with an overly generic name seems wrong - why not use something > like .desktop, and find a way for *EVERY* packaged desktop app > in OpenSolaris to use it? Because those came from something like 30 different projects who were all working on their own thing, and not as part of a unified vision, and changing the Solaris versions to use .desktop would break interoperability with other platforms. (You've also included bits of cruft from CDE, Enlightment, OpenWindows, KDE, and versions of GNOME that Sun never incorporated into Solaris, plus Netscape binaries Sun had no control over, as well as non desktop stuff and stuff from Sun's internal IT scripts in your list.) -- -Alan Coopersmith- alan.coopersmith@sun.com Sun Microsystems, Inc. - X Window System Engineering From Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com Tue Feb 19 11:28:49 2008 Received: from sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m1JJSmoq023916 for ; Tue, 19 Feb 2008 11:28:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m1JJShfW029571 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:lsarc-ext@sun.com>; Wed, 20 Feb 2008 03:28:47 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JWI00C0H3FVFO00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for lsarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT lsarc-ext@sun.com); Tue, 19 Feb 2008 12:28:43 -0700 (MST) Received: from sca-es-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.43.132]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JWI00C6E3FV5B00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for lsarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT lsarc-ext@sun.com); Tue, 19 Feb 2008 12:28:43 -0700 (MST) Received: from fe-sfbay-10.sun.com ([192.18.43.129]) by sca-es-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m1JJShRD004087 for ; Tue, 19 Feb 2008 11:28:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from conversion-daemon.fe-sfbay-10.sun.com by fe-sfbay-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0JWI00D012PZPX00@fe-sfbay-10.sun.com> (original mail from Alan.Coopersmith@Sun.COM) for lsarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT lsarc-ext@sun.com); Tue, 19 Feb 2008 11:28:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from [129.146.108.211] by fe-sfbay-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0JWI00EUH3FTFA80@fe-sfbay-10.sun.com> for lsarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT lsarc-ext@sun.com); Tue, 19 Feb 2008 11:28:42 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 11:28:41 -0800 From: Alan Coopersmith Subject: Re: LSARC/2008/116 - XDG User Dirs In-reply-to: <20080219174203.GL17042@Sun.COM> Sender: Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com To: Nicolas Williams Cc: Darren Kenny , John Fischer , lsarc-ext@sun.com, Dermot McCluskey Message-id: <47BB2DE9.9020108@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.1 References: <47B4C631.9090603@sun.com> <20080217220824.GN17042@Sun.COM> <47BA96D7.6060800@Sun.COM> <20080219174203.GL17042@Sun.COM> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (X11/20071203) Status: RO Content-Length: 420 Nicolas Williams wrote: > At the very least we need to support non-UTF-8 locale selections by the > user without having to update this file, and if that's done then why > bother with this system-wide setting? Solaris is phasing out non-UTF-8 locales, and it's getting harder and harder to login to one. -- -Alan Coopersmith- alan.coopersmith@sun.com Sun Microsystems, Inc. - X Window System Engineering From Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de Tue Feb 19 12:42:32 2008 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m1JKgVDn027658 for ; Tue, 19 Feb 2008 12:42:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m1JKgMsV014636; Tue, 19 Feb 2008 20:42:27 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JWI00D0H6UNH700@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Tue, 19 Feb 2008 12:42:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from sca-ea-mail-3.sun.com ([192.18.43.21]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JWI007QI6UK9L80@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Tue, 19 Feb 2008 12:42:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay41i.sun.com ([192.5.209.70]) by sca-ea-mail-3.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m1JKZvcT001497; Tue, 19 Feb 2008 20:42:20 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mms49es.sun.com ([160.41.221.233] [160.41.221.233]) by relay41i.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-795802; Tue, 19 Feb 2008 20:42:19 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay44i.sun.com (relay44i.sun.com [192.5.209.118]) by mms49es.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-1288409; Tue, 19 Feb 2008 20:42:19 +0000 (Z) Received: from mailgw2-out.fraunhofer.de ([153.96.1.22] [153.96.1.22]) by relay4i.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-13496499; Tue, 19 Feb 2008 20:42:19 +0000 (Z) Received: from mailgw23.noc.fraunhofer.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailgw2-out.fraunhofer.de[host mailgw23] (8.14.2+/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m1JKf8Pk020213; Tue, 19 Feb 2008 21:41:08 +0100 (CET) Received: from pluto.fokus.fraunhofer.de (pluto.fokus.fraunhofer.de [195.37.77.164]) by mailgw23.noc.fraunhofer.de (8.14.2+/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m1JKf7ic020199 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Tue, 19 Feb 2008 21:41:07 +0100 (CET) Received: from EXCHSRV.fokus.fraunhofer.de (bohr [10.147.9.231]) by pluto.fokus.fraunhofer.de (8.13.7/8.13.7) with SMTP id m1JKf7VT008481; Tue, 19 Feb 2008 21:41:07 +0100 (MET) Received: from rigel ([10.147.65.195]) by EXCHSRV.fokus.fraunhofer.de with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Tue, 19 Feb 2008 21:41:07 +0100 Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 21:41:03 +0100 From: Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (Joerg Schilling) Subject: Re: LSARC/2008/116 - XDG User Dirs In-reply-to: <47BB2DE9.9020108@sun.com> To: Nicolas.Williams@sun.com, Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com Cc: lsarc-ext@sun.com, John.Fischer@sun.com, Dermot.McCluskey@sun.com, Darren.Kenny@sun.com Message-id: <47bb3edf.qAVKQL+ZWhMiF0Aw%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== X-Fraunhofer-Email-Policy: accepted X-Antispam: No, score=-0.2/5.0, scanned in 0.118sec at (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smf-spamd v1.3.1 - http://smfs.sf.net/ References: <47B4C631.9090603@sun.com> <20080217220824.GN17042@Sun.COM> <47BA96D7.6060800@Sun.COM> <20080219174203.GL17042@Sun.COM> <47BB2DE9.9020108@sun.com> X-Authentication-warning: mailgw23.noc.fraunhofer.de: Host localhost [127.0.0.1] claimed to be mailgw23.noc.fraunhofer.de User-Agent: nail 11.22 3/20/05 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 19 Feb 2008 20:41:07.0664 (UTC) FILETIME=[C0E44500:01C87337] Status: RO Content-Length: 912 Alan Coopersmith wrote: > Nicolas Williams wrote: > > At the very least we need to support non-UTF-8 locale selections by the > > user without having to update this file, and if that's done then why > > bother with this system-wide setting? > > Solaris is phasing out non-UTF-8 locales, and it's getting harder and harder > to login to one. UTF-8 does not solve all problems and it even introduces other problems. Many Sun customers use ISO-8859-1 Most Russian people seem to use koi-8 CD-Text is based on ISO_8859-1 and non-Unicode based Japanese coding, you cannot change this. Jörg -- EMail:joerg@schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin js@cs.tu-berlin.de (uni) schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily From Nicolas.Williams@sun.com Tue Feb 19 14:23:49 2008 Received: from sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m1JMNmt3004016 for ; Tue, 19 Feb 2008 14:23:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m1JMNfhk007873; Wed, 20 Feb 2008 06:23:41 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JWI00903BJHT900@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Tue, 19 Feb 2008 14:23:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM ([129.153.128.104]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JWI00JUUBJG2QC0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Tue, 19 Feb 2008 14:23:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m1JMNd65014598; Tue, 19 Feb 2008 16:23:39 -0600 (CST) Received: (from nw141292@localhost) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1/Submit) id m1JMNdOj014597; Tue, 19 Feb 2008 16:23:39 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 16:23:39 -0600 From: Nicolas Williams Subject: Re: LSARC/2008/116 - XDG User Dirs In-reply-to: <47bb3edf.qAVKQL+ZWhMiF0Aw%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> To: Joerg Schilling Cc: alan.coopersmith@sun.com, lsarc-ext@sun.com, John.Fischer@sun.com, Dermot.McCluskey@sun.com, Darren.Kenny@sun.com Message-id: <20080219222339.GF14350@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <47B4C631.9090603@sun.com> <20080217220824.GN17042@Sun.COM> <47BA96D7.6060800@Sun.COM> <20080219174203.GL17042@Sun.COM> <47BB2DE9.9020108@sun.com> <47bb3edf.qAVKQL+ZWhMiF0Aw%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> X-Authentication-warning: binky.Central.Sun.COM: nw141292 set sender to Nicolas.Williams@sun.com using -f User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.7i Status: RO Content-Length: 1304 On Tue, Feb 19, 2008 at 09:41:03PM +0100, Joerg Schilling wrote: > Alan Coopersmith wrote: > > Nicolas Williams wrote: > > > At the very least we need to support non-UTF-8 locale selections by the > > > user without having to update this file, and if that's done then why > > > bother with this system-wide setting? > > > > Solaris is phasing out non-UTF-8 locales, and it's getting harder and harder > > to login to one. I am aware. > UTF-8 does not solve all problems and it even introduces other problems. I agree, but this comment is not relevant to the issue I brought up. [OT: That said, I think UTF-8 is the only workable solution for filesystem object names. Desktops and GUIs should be able to deal with that, and other charsets should be usable for other content where limitations of Unicode may be unacceptable. If you wish to have a discussion about *this* then let's continue it elsewhere (i.e., not on lsarc-ext).] Alan's comment is relevant because he's saying that we're effectively saying that we're going towards using only UTF-8 for filesystem names (which I think is the right approach), so we should use UTF-8 as the charset for these well-known names even when the user's locale is not a UTF-8 locale. I think that's good enough for me. Nico -- From John.Plocher@sun.com Tue Feb 19 15:39:40 2008 Received: from sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m1JNddsP007111 for ; Tue, 19 Feb 2008 15:39:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m1JNdbAb009516 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:lsarc-ext@sun.com>; Wed, 20 Feb 2008 07:39:38 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JWI0082DF21SQ00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for lsarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT lsarc-ext@Sun.COM); Tue, 19 Feb 2008 16:39:37 -0700 (MST) Received: from sca-es-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.43.133]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JWI008SAF204B00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for lsarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT lsarc-ext@Sun.COM); Tue, 19 Feb 2008 16:39:36 -0700 (MST) Received: from fe-sfbay-09.sun.com ([192.18.43.129]) by sca-es-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m1JNdZCQ015396 for ; Tue, 19 Feb 2008 15:39:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from conversion-daemon.fe-sfbay-09.sun.com by fe-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0JWI00G01EVK0P00@fe-sfbay-09.sun.com> (original mail from John.Plocher@Sun.COM) for lsarc-ext@Sun.COM (ORCPT lsarc-ext@Sun.COM); Tue, 19 Feb 2008 15:39:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from wp668.local ([208.74.177.212]) by fe-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0JWI001SJF1Z5B70@fe-sfbay-09.sun.com> for lsarc-ext@Sun.COM (ORCPT lsarc-ext@Sun.COM); Tue, 19 Feb 2008 15:39:35 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 15:39:35 -0800 From: John Plocher Subject: Re: LSARC/2008/116 - XDG User Dirs In-reply-to: <47B8A73A.80503@Sun.COM> Sender: John.Plocher@sun.com To: Darren Kenny Cc: lsarc-ext@sun.com Message-id: <47BB68B7.10605@Sun.Com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <47B4C631.9090603@sun.com> <20080214234508.GI22027@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <47B8A73A.80503@Sun.COM> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Macintosh/20071031) Status: RO Content-Length: 564 Darren Kenny wrote: > - If you log in in German, you will have the directory: > > Musik > > - If you then log in using English, a call to g_get_user_special_dir( > G_USER_DIRECTORY_MUSIC ) will return ${HOME}/Musik rather than ${HOME}/Music What happens when the user renames the directory via % mv Musik "My Music" i.e., how does the system notice the change and update this cached copy of the filename? I presume it has a filesystem change notifier, and that it can do some diagnostics when it discovers that the old name is no longer there... -John From Darren.Kenny@sun.com Wed Feb 20 01:37:15 2008 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m1K9bE2R024453 for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2008 01:37:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m1K9b4Kt026914 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:lsarc-ext@sun.com>; Wed, 20 Feb 2008 09:37:14 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JWJ00A016Q0LB00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for lsarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT lsarc-ext@Sun.COM); Wed, 20 Feb 2008 01:37:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from gmp-eb-inf-1.sun.com ([192.18.6.21]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JWJ006F26PY38E0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for lsarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT lsarc-ext@Sun.COM); Wed, 20 Feb 2008 01:37:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from fe-emea-09.sun.com (gmp-eb-lb-2-fe1.eu.sun.com [192.18.6.10]) by gmp-eb-inf-1.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m1K9bArA014183 for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2008 09:37:10 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.fe-emea-09.sun.com by fe-emea-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0JWJ009016FY9X00@fe-emea-09.sun.com> (original mail from Darren.Kenny@Sun.COM) for lsarc-ext@Sun.COM (ORCPT lsarc-ext@Sun.COM); Wed, 20 Feb 2008 09:37:10 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [129.150.121.192] by fe-emea-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0JWJ00H5N6PV4910@fe-emea-09.sun.com> for lsarc-ext@Sun.COM (ORCPT lsarc-ext@Sun.COM); Wed, 20 Feb 2008 09:37:08 +0000 (GMT) Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 09:36:48 +0000 From: Darren Kenny Subject: Re: LSARC/2008/116 - XDG User Dirs In-reply-to: <20080219184859.GM17042@Sun.COM> Sender: Darren.Kenny@sun.com To: Nicolas Williams Cc: John Plocher , John Fischer , Dermot McCluskey , lsarc-ext@sun.com Message-id: <47BBF4B0.5060508@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <47B4C631.9090603@sun.com> <20080217220824.GN17042@Sun.COM> <47BA96D7.6060800@Sun.COM> <47BB0A65.4020608@Sun.Com> <20080219184029.75db7980@Nokia-N810-50-2> <20080219184859.GM17042@Sun.COM> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (X11/20080128) Status: RO Content-Length: 1604 Nicolas Williams wrote: > On Tue, Feb 19, 2008 at 06:40:29PM +0000, Darren Kenny wrote: >> On Tue, 19 Feb 2008 08:57:09 -0800 >> John Plocher wrote: >>>> It's ${HOME}/.config by default. >>> #include "John's please don't fill my $HOME with your crap Gripe" >>> >>> It would really be nice (TM) if we could get all these @##@$% >>> features to put their crap^H^H^H^H config files one level deeper >>> under a common .desktop or .gnome or .whatever parent. so my >>> home dir doesn't end up with hundreds of opaque pieces of trash >>> that some stupid application decided to leave behind. Better yet >>> would be a way to not need the files in the first place. >>> (My homedir today has over 200 "dotfiles" in it - and I have no >>> real idea whether any of them are optional or obsolete and can be >>> deleted or if my desktop/session will die a horrible death if I >>> so much as touch them... >>> >>> #end rant >> But that's what this is - XDG config, which is neither GNOME or KDE specific >> uses .config as the root of it's config - if you use JDS you most likely >> already have that dir... > > What else goes in ~/.config/? > > In mine the only thing is gtk-2.0/gtkfilechooser. Is there a precedent > for ~/.config? User-local modifications to the menus and autostart files for the session. These are part of the Freedesktop Base Directory specification, as defined at: http://standards.freedesktop.org/basedir-spec/basedir-spec-0.6.html This is marked as Committed in the case LSARC 2005/734 (GNOME For Nevada). Darren. From johnf@tmp1.sfbay.sun.com Tue Feb 26 09:38:37 2008 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m1QHcbrb004702 for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2008 09:38:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m1QHcaZE025756 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:lsarc-ext@sun.com>; Tue, 26 Feb 2008 09:38:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JWU00J4VX0C7S00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for lsarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT lsarc-ext@sun.com); Tue, 26 Feb 2008 09:38:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from dm-sfbay-01.sfbay.sun.com ([129.145.155.118]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JWU00G3WX0BRS40@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for lsarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT lsarc-ext@sun.com); Tue, 26 Feb 2008 09:38:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from tmp1.sfbay.sun.com (tmp1.SFBay.Sun.COM [10.6.103.220]) by dm-sfbay-01.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m1QHcXVO040455; Tue, 26 Feb 2008 09:38:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from tmp1.sfbay.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tmp1.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.3+Sun/8.13.3) with ESMTP id m1QHUld6023978; Tue, 26 Feb 2008 09:30:47 -0800 (PST) Received: (from johnf@localhost) by tmp1.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.3+Sun/8.13.3/Submit) id m1QHUlbH023977; Tue, 26 Feb 2008 09:30:47 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2008 09:30:47 -0800 (PST) From: John Fischer Subject: Re: LSARC/2008/116 - XDG User Dirs To: Darren.Kenny@sun.com, John.Plocher@sun.com Cc: lsarc-ext@sun.com Message-id: <200802261730.m1QHUlbH023977@tmp1.sfbay.sun.com> Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 Status: RO Content-Length: 450 Darren, Can you address John's concern about someone using the UNIX mv command on the directory name? >>What happens when the user renames the directory via >> >> % mv Musik "My Music" >> >>i.e., how does the system notice the change and update this cached >>copy of the filename? I presume it has a filesystem change notifier, >>and that it can do some diagnostics when it discovers that the old >>name is no longer there... Thanks, John From Darren.Kenny@sun.com Wed Feb 27 01:55:04 2008 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m1R9t4Sc005843 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2008 01:55:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m1R9t2uL000797 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:lsarc-ext@sun.com>; Wed, 27 Feb 2008 01:55:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JWW0070967RWJ00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for lsarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT lsarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 27 Feb 2008 01:55:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from gmp-eb-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.6.24]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JWW000DH67P3240@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for lsarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT lsarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 27 Feb 2008 01:55:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from fe-emea-10.sun.com (gmp-eb-lb-2-fe2.eu.sun.com [192.18.6.11]) by gmp-eb-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m1R9t1pH024028 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2008 09:55:01 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.fe-emea-10.sun.com by fe-emea-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0JWW00I015Y1U100@fe-emea-10.sun.com> (original mail from Darren.Kenny@Sun.COM) for lsarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT lsarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 27 Feb 2008 09:55:01 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [129.150.121.192] by fe-emea-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0JWW00B1G67N0ED0@fe-emea-10.sun.com>; Wed, 27 Feb 2008 09:55:01 +0000 (GMT) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 09:54:38 +0000 From: Darren Kenny Subject: Re: LSARC/2008/116 - XDG User Dirs In-reply-to: <200802261730.m1QHUlbH023977@tmp1.sfbay.sun.com> Sender: Darren.Kenny@sun.com To: John Fischer Cc: John.Plocher@sun.com, lsarc-ext@sun.com Message-id: <47C5335E.9060506@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200802261730.m1QHUlbH023977@tmp1.sfbay.sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (X11/20080128) Status: RO Content-Length: 1573 John Fischer wrote: > Darren, > > Can you address John's concern about someone using the UNIX mv > command on the directory name? Apologies, I thought that I had responded to everything. > >>> What happens when the user renames the directory via >>> >>> % mv Musik "My Music" >>> >>> i.e., how does the system notice the change and update this cached >>> copy of the filename? I presume it has a filesystem change notifier, >>> and that it can do some diagnostics when it discovers that the old >>> name is no longer there... How you rename the directory is important - in that what happens depends on whether you use a terminal or the GNOME File Browser (nautilus). For users that don't use the terminal and use the file browser (nautilus) the change *will* be noticed - so if you rename one of the special directories there, then the user-dirs.dirs file will get updated to match. In this case, using the mv command, while on next-login it will notice that the directory has moved, it cannot reconcile where it's moved to since it is not permanently monitoring for such changes - this program is normally only run during the login cycle. On next login, it will only notice that the directory is gone and assume that you didn't want a specific directory for your (in this case) Music and assign ${HOME} as the directory for storing it. If you want to permanently change the directory name you would have to edit the file ~/.config/user-dirs.dirs and make the appropriate change there too - essentially duplicating what nautilus is doing. Thanks, Darren. From John.Plocher@sun.com Wed Feb 27 12:00:24 2008 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m1RK0Nqu028751 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2008 12:00:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m1RK0AaC000134 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:lsarc-ext@sun.com>; Wed, 27 Feb 2008 20:00:22 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JWW00L2BY8LTK00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for lsarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT lsarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 27 Feb 2008 12:00:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from sca-es-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.43.132]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JWW00CKQY8KS640@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for lsarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT lsarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 27 Feb 2008 12:00:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from fe-sfbay-10.sun.com ([192.18.43.129]) by sca-es-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m1RK0KBH007387 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2008 12:00:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from conversion-daemon.fe-sfbay-10.sun.com by fe-sfbay-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0JWW00401Y77FY00@fe-sfbay-10.sun.com> (original mail from John.Plocher@Sun.COM) for lsarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT lsarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 27 Feb 2008 12:00:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from wp668.SFBay.Sun.COM ([129.146.226.219]) by fe-sfbay-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0JWW00510Y896900@fe-sfbay-10.sun.com>; Wed, 27 Feb 2008 12:00:09 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 12:00:09 -0800 From: John Plocher Subject: Re: LSARC/2008/116 - XDG User Dirs In-reply-to: <47C5335E.9060506@Sun.COM> Sender: John.Plocher@sun.com To: Darren Kenny Cc: John Fischer , lsarc-ext@sun.com Message-id: <47C5C149.9050309@Sun.Com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200802261730.m1QHUlbH023977@tmp1.sfbay.sun.com> <47C5335E.9060506@Sun.COM> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Macintosh/20071031) Status: RO Content-Length: 314 Darren Kenny wrote: > In this case, using the mv command, ... it cannot reconcile This seems to be a serious flaw that needs to get fixed. No, I don't know how best to fix it, but I believe there are mechanisms in place to watch for filesystem changes and react.... I feel TCR strongly about this. -John From John.Fischer@sun.com Wed Feb 27 15:36:17 2008 Received: from sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m1RNaF1r010008 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2008 15:36:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m1RNa9en000608 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:lsarc-ext@sun.com>; Thu, 28 Feb 2008 07:36:15 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JWX0080P88B2P00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for lsarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT lsarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 27 Feb 2008 16:36:11 -0700 (MST) Received: from sca-es-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.43.133]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JWX00CL4888WTC0@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for lsarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT lsarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 27 Feb 2008 16:36:08 -0700 (MST) Received: from fe-sfbay-09.sun.com ([192.18.43.129]) by sca-es-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m1RNa8na019733 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2008 15:36:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from conversion-daemon.fe-sfbay-09.sun.com by fe-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0JWX00H017WQJQ00@fe-sfbay-09.sun.com> (original mail from John.Fischer@Sun.COM) for lsarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT lsarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 27 Feb 2008 15:36:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.10.6] ([24.10.86.139]) by fe-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0JWX00LU4881I4A0@fe-sfbay-09.sun.com>; Wed, 27 Feb 2008 15:36:02 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 15:35:45 -0800 From: John Fischer Subject: Re: LSARC/2008/116 - XDG User Dirs In-reply-to: <47C5C149.9050309@Sun.Com> Sender: John.Fischer@sun.com To: John Plocher Cc: Darren Kenny , John Fischer , lsarc-ext@sun.com Reply-to: John.Fischer@sun.com Message-id: <47C5F3D1.4080208@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200802261730.m1QHUlbH023977@tmp1.sfbay.sun.com> <47C5335E.9060506@Sun.COM> <47C5C149.9050309@Sun.Com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.4 (X11/20070622) Status: RO Content-Length: 1068 John, So I can 'mv /etc/passwd' and the whole system is messed up. Yes, I know an extreme example that is protected by permissions. But that said there are lots of files that one could move and mess up the system. If one moved the bookmarks within the .mozilla/.firefox directory then you loose the bookmarks. This filename is in a directory that is owned by the user. How is this any different from messing up ones bookmarks? Also TCR? How can we TCR something like this when it is a community thing. We typically state that the project team should work with the community. Making this a TCR effectively denies the project. I do not think that this is a TCR issue nor even an issue. Thanks, John John Plocher wrote: > Darren Kenny wrote: >> In this case, using the mv command, ... it cannot reconcile > > > This seems to be a serious flaw that needs to get fixed. No, I don't > know how best to fix it, but I believe there are mechanisms in place > to watch for filesystem changes and react.... > > I feel TCR strongly about this. > > -John From John.Plocher@sun.com Wed Feb 27 16:13:54 2008 Received: from sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m1S0Drgt011790 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2008 16:13:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m1S0DiH6015237 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:lsarc-ext@sun.com>; Thu, 28 Feb 2008 08:13:53 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JWX00A019Z3UN00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for lsarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT lsarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 27 Feb 2008 17:13:51 -0700 (MST) Received: from sca-es-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.43.133]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JWX00CWR9Z2WTE0@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for lsarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT lsarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 27 Feb 2008 17:13:51 -0700 (MST) Received: from fe-sfbay-10.sun.com ([192.18.43.129]) by sca-es-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m1S0Do83023808 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2008 16:13:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from conversion-daemon.fe-sfbay-10.sun.com by fe-sfbay-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0JWX000019QM2L00@fe-sfbay-10.sun.com> (original mail from John.Plocher@Sun.COM) for lsarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT lsarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 27 Feb 2008 16:13:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from wp668.SFBay.Sun.COM ([129.146.226.219]) by fe-sfbay-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0JWX006909Z2AD90@fe-sfbay-10.sun.com>; Wed, 27 Feb 2008 16:13:50 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 16:13:49 -0800 From: John Plocher Subject: Re: LSARC/2008/116 - XDG User Dirs In-reply-to: <47C5F3D1.4080208@sun.com> Sender: John.Plocher@sun.com To: John.Fischer@sun.com Cc: Darren Kenny , John Fischer , lsarc-ext@sun.com Message-id: <47C5FCBD.3070700@Sun.Com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200802261730.m1QHUlbH023977@tmp1.sfbay.sun.com> <47C5335E.9060506@Sun.COM> <47C5C149.9050309@Sun.Com> <47C5F3D1.4080208@sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Macintosh/20071031) Status: RO Content-Length: 1277 John Fischer wrote: > So I can 'mv /etc/passwd' and the whole system is messed up. > Yes, I know an extreme example that is protected by permissions. > But that said there are lots of files that one could move and > mess up the system. This case proposes to remember a user specified filename, and base the behavior of the system around the fact that the referenced file exists. It also allows the user to change that filename with certain tools while keeping the remembered name synchronized. Except in certain cases, in which case, it fails to keep the real filename and the remembered filename in sync, and the consequence of that failure is misoperation of the desktop system proposed by this case. This is an architectural hole - we would now have a system that layers a hidden interpretation of the files in my $HOME on top of things, such that what I see and do in my desktop filemanager is not the same as what I can see and do in my desktop terminal window. Braap. The desktop system is no longer self consistent. > Also TCR? How can we TCR something like this when it is > a community thing? It's OK to jump off this cliff - after all, the other lemmings are doing it :-) Importing FOSS isn't simply an excuse to stop doing good engineering. -John From John.Fischer@sun.com Wed Feb 27 17:23:52 2008 Received: from sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m1S1Npxn013776 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2008 17:23:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m1S1Nipn010600 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:lsarc-ext@sun.com>; Thu, 28 Feb 2008 09:23:50 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JWX00901D7PCI00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for lsarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT lsarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 27 Feb 2008 17:23:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from sca-es-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.43.133]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JWX006RYD7OLO20@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for lsarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT lsarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 27 Feb 2008 17:23:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from fe-sfbay-10.sun.com ([192.18.43.129]) by sca-es-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m1S1NmVD029912 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2008 17:23:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from conversion-daemon.fe-sfbay-10.sun.com by fe-sfbay-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0JWX00A01D6UYP00@fe-sfbay-10.sun.com> (original mail from John.Fischer@Sun.COM) for lsarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT lsarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 27 Feb 2008 17:23:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.10.6] ([24.10.86.139]) by fe-sfbay-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0JWX00HMKD7N9460@fe-sfbay-10.sun.com>; Wed, 27 Feb 2008 17:23:48 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 17:23:31 -0800 From: John Fischer Subject: Re: LSARC/2008/116 - XDG User Dirs In-reply-to: <47C5FCBD.3070700@Sun.Com> Sender: John.Fischer@sun.com To: John Plocher Cc: Darren Kenny , John Fischer , lsarc-ext@sun.com Reply-to: John.Fischer@sun.com Message-id: <47C60D13.9020609@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200802261730.m1QHUlbH023977@tmp1.sfbay.sun.com> <47C5335E.9060506@Sun.COM> <47C5C149.9050309@Sun.Com> <47C5F3D1.4080208@sun.com> <47C5FCBD.3070700@Sun.Com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.4 (X11/20070622) Status: RO Content-Length: 2562 John, To follow your argument then we should TCR bookmarks for the browsers. After all that is caching a URL that might no longer be valid. Therefore, it is bad engineering and an architectural hole. This is actually worse because the moving of a site or dropping of a site is being done by someone else and the us In this case we are talking about something that someone has done to themselves. Here's the thing if someone moves a directory and Nautilus can not find the directory because it was moved it will still show up as the newly moved directory. Right? Furthermore, if it is moved by the user then they will be able to find it. So long as the system does not jump off the deep end of the pool trying to find it I do not see a problem. The person took a gun (mv) and possibly shot themselves in the foot with it while they were loading it. Should we then prevent them from loading the gun? Again, this is something that someone is doing to themselves. Also I did not say that FOSS is always correct. I do not see this as something that is a TCR nor a reason to fork from the community. This is something that we might talk to the community about what can be done about it. John John Plocher wrote: > John Fischer wrote: >> So I can 'mv /etc/passwd' and the whole system is messed up. >> Yes, I know an extreme example that is protected by permissions. >> But that said there are lots of files that one could move and >> mess up the system. > > > This case proposes to remember a user specified filename, and base > the behavior of the system around the fact that the referenced > file exists. It also allows the user to change that filename > with certain tools while keeping the remembered name synchronized. > > Except in certain cases, in which case, it fails to keep the real > filename and the remembered filename in sync, and the consequence > of that failure is misoperation of the desktop system proposed by > this case. > > This is an architectural hole - we would now have a system that > layers a hidden interpretation of the files in my $HOME on top > of things, such that what I see and do in my desktop filemanager > is not the same as what I can see and do in my desktop terminal > window. Braap. The desktop system is no longer self consistent. > > > Also TCR? How can we TCR something like this when it is > > a community thing? > > It's OK to jump off this cliff - after all, the other lemmings > are doing it :-) > > Importing FOSS isn't simply an excuse to stop doing good engineering. > > -John > > From lists@mcintyreweb.com Wed Feb 27 19:27:37 2008 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m1S3RaVW017863 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2008 19:27:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m1S3RWZ2026696; Thu, 28 Feb 2008 03:27:33 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JWX00M07IXUXA00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 27 Feb 2008 19:27:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com ([192.18.98.36]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JWX004P6IXT3GC0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 27 Feb 2008 19:27:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay41i.sun.com ([192.5.209.70]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m1S3Nuk2026542; Thu, 28 Feb 2008 03:27:29 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mms49es.sun.com ([160.41.221.233] [160.41.221.233]) by relay41i.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-156973; Thu, 28 Feb 2008 03:27:28 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay41i.sun.com (relay41i.sun.com [192.5.209.70]) by mms49es.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-2088563; Thu, 28 Feb 2008 03:27:28 +0000 (Z) Received: from partslist.i.mcintyreweb.com ([64.166.3.74] [64.166.3.74]) by relay4i.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-3302594; Thu, 28 Feb 2008 03:27:28 +0000 (Z) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by partslist.i.mcintyreweb.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m1S3RMYd010242; Wed, 27 Feb 2008 19:27:22 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 19:27:22 -0800 From: Hugh McIntyre Subject: Re: LSARC/2008/116 - XDG User Dirs In-reply-to: <47C5C149.9050309@Sun.Com> To: John Plocher Cc: Darren Kenny , John Fischer , lsarc-ext@sun.com Message-id: <47C62A1A.3010807@mcintyreweb.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== X-Antispam: No, score=-0.7/5.0, scanned in 0.226sec at (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smf-spamd v1.3.1 - http://smfs.sf.net/ References: <200802261730.m1QHUlbH023977@tmp1.sfbay.sun.com> <47C5335E.9060506@Sun.COM> <47C5C149.9050309@Sun.Com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (X11/20071119) Status: RO Content-Length: 1234 John Plocher wrote: > Darren Kenny wrote: >> In this case, using the mv command, ... it cannot reconcile > > This seems to be a serious flaw that needs to get fixed. No, I don't > know how best to fix it, but I believe there are mechanisms in place > to watch for filesystem changes and react.... Not sure how file event monitoring would deal with: 1. a "mv" command by root while the user is not logged in 2. a case where the user's home directory is on a remote NFS server, so that the "mv" command is not run on the system running the Gnome software. Think of a NetApp box, for example... Having said that: > John Fischer wrote: >> This filename is in a directory that is owned by the >> user. How is this any different from messing up ones >> bookmarks? On the one hand the directories subject to moving are at the top level, e.g. $HOME/Music. Not dotfiles. But on the other hand, I'm fairly sure that it I type "mv Music Music.old" on MacOS, the desktop does not track this and instead creates a new Music directory next time I fire up iTunes. In fact, if using "mv Music Music.backup", I've relied on this in the past. Sometimes the user may want the system to start with a new directory... Hugh. From danek.duvall@sun.com Wed Feb 27 20:16:54 2008 Received: from newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (newsunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.245]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m1S4Gseo019616 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2008 20:16:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m1S4GrQ5013328 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:lsarc-ext@sun.com>; Wed, 27 Feb 2008 21:16:53 -0700 (MST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JWX00505L85E900@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for lsarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT lsarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 27 Feb 2008 20:16:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from dm-sfbay-01.sfbay.sun.com ([129.145.155.118]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JWX00186L84N0A0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for lsarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT lsarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 27 Feb 2008 20:16:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from zruty.sfbay.sun.com (zruty.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.168.40]) by dm-sfbay-01.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m1S4GokD017138; Wed, 27 Feb 2008 20:16:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from zruty.sfbay.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zruty.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.2+Sun/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m1S4GoAc012001; Wed, 27 Feb 2008 20:16:50 -0800 (PST) Received: (from dduvall@localhost) by zruty.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.2+Sun/8.14.2/Submit) id m1S4Go26012000; Wed, 27 Feb 2008 20:16:50 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 20:16:49 -0800 From: Danek Duvall Subject: Re: LSARC/2008/116 - XDG User Dirs In-reply-to: <47C62A1A.3010807@mcintyreweb.com> To: Hugh McIntyre Cc: John Plocher , John Fischer , Darren Kenny , lsarc-ext@sun.com Message-id: <20080228041649.GO11899@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200802261730.m1QHUlbH023977@tmp1.sfbay.sun.com> <47C5335E.9060506@Sun.COM> <47C5C149.9050309@Sun.Com> <47C62A1A.3010807@mcintyreweb.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.16 (2007-06-27) Status: RO Content-Length: 699 On Wed, Feb 27, 2008 at 07:27:22PM -0800, Hugh McIntyre wrote: > But on the other hand, I'm fairly sure that it I type "mv Music > Music.old" on MacOS, the desktop does not track this and instead creates > a new Music directory next time I fire up iTunes. In fact, if using "mv > Music Music.backup", I've relied on this in the past. Sometimes the > user may want the system to start with a new directory... Perhaps the rename system call should be enhanced to see if it's renaming a directory that translates to "My Music" or "Music" in all languages to another directory so named, and update the appropriate config file to match. This could be implemented as a dtrace script. :-P Danek From John.Plocher@sun.com Wed Feb 27 20:23:03 2008 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m1S4N3vf019708 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2008 20:23:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m1S4N2N6015473 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:lsarc-ext@sun.com>; Wed, 27 Feb 2008 20:23:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JWX00I0DLIEJQ00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for lsarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT lsarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 27 Feb 2008 20:23:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from sca-es-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.43.132]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JWX006OILIDLG90@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for lsarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT lsarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 27 Feb 2008 20:23:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from fe-sfbay-09.sun.com ([192.18.43.129]) by sca-es-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m1S4N1cI024073 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2008 20:23:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from conversion-daemon.fe-sfbay-09.sun.com by fe-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0JWX00101LE3RV00@fe-sfbay-09.sun.com> (original mail from John.Plocher@Sun.COM) for lsarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT lsarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 27 Feb 2008 20:23:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from wp668.local ([208.74.177.212]) by fe-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0JWX00830LID8P70@fe-sfbay-09.sun.com> for lsarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT lsarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 27 Feb 2008 20:23:01 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 20:23:00 -0800 From: John Plocher Subject: Re: LSARC/2008/116 - XDG User Dirs In-reply-to: <47C62A1A.3010807@mcintyreweb.com> Sender: John.Plocher@sun.com To: Hugh McIntyre Cc: Darren Kenny , John Fischer , lsarc-ext@sun.com Message-id: <47C63724.8040702@Sun.Com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200802261730.m1QHUlbH023977@tmp1.sfbay.sun.com> <47C5335E.9060506@Sun.COM> <47C5C149.9050309@Sun.Com> <47C62A1A.3010807@mcintyreweb.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Macintosh/20071031) Status: RO Content-Length: 929 Hugh McIntyre wrote: > But on the other hand, I'm fairly sure that it I type "mv Music > Music.old" on MacOS, the desktop does not track this and instead creates > a new Music directory next time I fire up iTunes. In fact, if using "mv > Music Music.backup", I've relied on this in the past. Sometimes the > user may want the system to start with a new directory... The current behavior is inconsistent. If you do the rename in the GUI file manager, the "remembered" name is updated, but if you do it via the desktop terminal program, it doesn't. Doing it the same (always updating or never) would be good; it is the difference in behavior that is bad, combined with a hidden remembered value that is difficult to change. If the desktop starts up and can't find the expected/old dir, there needs to be a way for me to update the "remembered value": "please use 'Music' instead of the default 'My Music'..." -John From John.Plocher@sun.com Wed Feb 27 20:36:23 2008 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m1S4aNBo019766 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2008 20:36:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m1S4aHZp019407 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:lsarc-ext@sun.com>; Thu, 28 Feb 2008 04:36:22 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JWX0090NM4LRL00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for lsarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT lsarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 27 Feb 2008 21:36:21 -0700 (MST) Received: from sca-es-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.43.133]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JWX00758M4K9O10@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for lsarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT lsarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 27 Feb 2008 21:36:20 -0700 (MST) Received: from fe-sfbay-09.sun.com ([192.18.43.129]) by sca-es-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m1S4aKpU007485 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2008 20:36:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from conversion-daemon.fe-sfbay-09.sun.com by fe-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0JWX00601LYMUK00@fe-sfbay-09.sun.com> (original mail from John.Plocher@Sun.COM) for lsarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT lsarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 27 Feb 2008 20:36:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from wp668.local ([208.74.177.212]) by fe-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0JWX0088AM4J8P90@fe-sfbay-09.sun.com>; Wed, 27 Feb 2008 20:36:20 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 20:36:17 -0800 From: John Plocher Subject: Re: LSARC/2008/116 - XDG User Dirs In-reply-to: <20080228041649.GO11899@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> Sender: John.Plocher@sun.com To: Danek Duvall Cc: Hugh McIntyre , John Fischer , Darren Kenny , lsarc-ext@sun.com Message-id: <47C63A41.3030908@Sun.Com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200802261730.m1QHUlbH023977@tmp1.sfbay.sun.com> <47C5335E.9060506@Sun.COM> <47C5C149.9050309@Sun.Com> <47C62A1A.3010807@mcintyreweb.com> <20080228041649.GO11899@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Macintosh/20071031) Status: RO Content-Length: 816 Danek Duvall wrote: > On Wed, Feb 27, 2008 at 07:27:22PM -0800, Hugh McIntyre wrote: > >> But on the other hand, I'm fairly sure that it I type "mv Music >> Music.old" on MacOS, the desktop does not track this and instead creates >> a new Music directory next time I fire up iTunes. In fact, if using "mv >> Music Music.backup", I've relied on this in the past. So, I tried this on my mac. plocher@wp668.local> mv Music MMusic mv: rename Music to MMusic: Permission denied in Finder, I get a popup that says "Music" can't be modified or deleted because it is required by Mac OS X The system protects itself such that its internal assumptions (that there exists a directory called Music) aren't violated by normal user actions. It doesn't /allow/ itself to be put into an inconsistent state. -John From Nicolas.Williams@sun.com Wed Feb 27 21:15:13 2008 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m1S5FDcu020254 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2008 21:15:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m1S5F2QP025780; Wed, 27 Feb 2008 21:15:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JWX00D0NNX90200@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 27 Feb 2008 22:15:09 -0700 (MST) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM ([129.153.128.104]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JWX007HZNX89M30@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 27 Feb 2008 22:15:08 -0700 (MST) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m1S5F4BW022402; Wed, 27 Feb 2008 23:15:04 -0600 (CST) Received: (from nw141292@localhost) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1/Submit) id m1S5F4bx022401; Wed, 27 Feb 2008 23:15:04 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 23:15:04 -0600 From: Nicolas Williams Subject: Re: LSARC/2008/116 - XDG User Dirs In-reply-to: <47C63724.8040702@Sun.Com> To: John Plocher Cc: Hugh McIntyre , John Fischer , Darren Kenny , lsarc-ext@sun.com Message-id: <20080228051504.GP21674@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200802261730.m1QHUlbH023977@tmp1.sfbay.sun.com> <47C5335E.9060506@Sun.COM> <47C5C149.9050309@Sun.Com> <47C62A1A.3010807@mcintyreweb.com> <47C63724.8040702@Sun.Com> X-Authentication-warning: binky.Central.Sun.COM: nw141292 set sender to Nicolas.Williams@sun.com using -f User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.7i Status: RO Content-Length: 1259 On Wed, Feb 27, 2008 at 08:23:00PM -0800, John Plocher wrote: > Hugh McIntyre wrote: > > But on the other hand, I'm fairly sure that it I type "mv Music > > Music.old" on MacOS, the desktop does not track this and instead creates > > a new Music directory next time I fire up iTunes. In fact, if using "mv > > Music Music.backup", I've relied on this in the past. Sometimes the > > user may want the system to start with a new directory... > > > The current behavior is inconsistent. > > If you do the rename in the GUI file manager, the "remembered" name is updated, > but if you do it via the desktop terminal program, it doesn't. > > Doing it the same (always updating or never) would be good; it is the difference > in behavior that is bad, combined with a hidden remembered value that is difficult > to change. > > If the desktop starts up and can't find the expected/old dir, there needs > to be a way for me to update the "remembered value": "please use 'Music' instead > of the default 'My Music'..." Yeah, it'd be better if the thing was re-created with the "remembered" name when you rename it. Instead there should be a way to tell the system where you want your music (images, whatever). That sounds a lot more sane to me. Nico -- From lists@mcintyreweb.com Thu Feb 28 00:06:29 2008 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m1S86TWR024097 for ; Thu, 28 Feb 2008 00:06:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m1S86DS8000688; Thu, 28 Feb 2008 08:06:24 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JWX00801VUK5P00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Thu, 28 Feb 2008 00:06:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com ([192.18.98.34]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JWX00IO7VUKO150@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Thu, 28 Feb 2008 00:06:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay12i.sun.com (ip122.net129179-4.block1.us.syntegra.com [129.179.4.122]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m1S8235d013910; Thu, 28 Feb 2008 08:06:19 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mmp12es.sun.com ([160.41.209.22] [160.41.209.22]) by relay12i.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-583635; Thu, 28 Feb 2008 08:06:19 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay18i.sun.com (relay18i.sun.com [129.179.4.128]) by mmp12es.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-1411492; Thu, 28 Feb 2008 08:06:19 +0000 (Z) Received: from partslist.i.mcintyreweb.com ([64.166.3.74] [64.166.3.74]) by relay1ib.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-5467998; Thu, 28 Feb 2008 08:06:19 +0000 (Z) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by partslist.i.mcintyreweb.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m1S86DdP011043; Thu, 28 Feb 2008 00:06:13 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 00:06:13 -0800 From: Hugh McIntyre Subject: Re: LSARC/2008/116 - XDG User Dirs In-reply-to: <47C63A41.3030908@Sun.Com> To: John Plocher Cc: Danek Duvall , John Fischer , Darren Kenny , lsarc-ext@sun.com Message-id: <47C66B75.6000004@mcintyreweb.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== X-Antispam: No, score=-2.6/5.0, scanned in 0.108sec at (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smf-spamd v1.3.1 - http://smfs.sf.net/ References: <200802261730.m1QHUlbH023977@tmp1.sfbay.sun.com> <47C5335E.9060506@Sun.COM> <47C5C149.9050309@Sun.Com> <47C62A1A.3010807@mcintyreweb.com> <20080228041649.GO11899@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <47C63A41.3030908@Sun.Com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (X11/20071119) Status: RO Content-Length: 1384 John Plocher wrote: > So, I tried this on my mac. > > plocher@wp668.local> mv Music MMusic > mv: rename Music to MMusic: Permission denied > > in Finder, I get a popup that says > "Music" can't be modified or deleted because it is required by Mac OS X Interesting. But maybe not as bulletproof as you think: solaris10% cd /net/macos-box/Users/hugh solaris10% mv Music M solaris10% Oops... > The system protects itself such that its internal assumptions > (that there exists a directory called Music) aren't violated > by normal user actions. It doesn't /allow/ itself to be put into > an inconsistent state. I must say that I thought I was able to do this in the past, but I may have been using a home directory that was copied rather than a fresh install, so the ACL may have been missing. Or this may be a recent fix in 10.5, since it looks like the ACL was probably not present in 10.3. In any case, this suggests one possible fix for Solaris if people care about this enough. Modulo the warning that this prevents changing the file in obvious ways, but it's harder to make this foolproof. Hugh. PS: looks like they just do this via an ACL. Although as mentioned above, they seem to have a bug whereby the NFS server treats the ACL differently: macos% /bin/ls -eld Music drwxr-xr-x+ 7 hugh home 238 Nov 5 22:43 Music 0: group:everyone deny delete From Darren.Kenny@sun.com Thu Feb 28 01:18:53 2008 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m1S9Iq2N026166 for ; Thu, 28 Feb 2008 01:18:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m1S9IpkD028523 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:lsarc-ext@sun.com>; Thu, 28 Feb 2008 09:18:51 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JWX00F05Z7ESV00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for lsarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT lsarc-ext@sun.com); Thu, 28 Feb 2008 01:18:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from gmp-eb-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.6.24]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JWX00I9CZ7CO2B0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for lsarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT lsarc-ext@sun.com); Thu, 28 Feb 2008 01:18:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from fe-emea-10.sun.com (gmp-eb-lb-2-fe1.eu.sun.com [192.18.6.10]) by gmp-eb-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m1S9ImMD027631 for ; Thu, 28 Feb 2008 09:18:48 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.fe-emea-10.sun.com by fe-emea-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0JWX00B01YGGR000@fe-emea-10.sun.com> (original mail from Darren.Kenny@Sun.COM) for lsarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT lsarc-ext@sun.com); Thu, 28 Feb 2008 09:18:48 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [129.156.226.241] by fe-emea-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0JWX00IILZ75YD60@fe-emea-10.sun.com> for lsarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT lsarc-ext@sun.com); Thu, 28 Feb 2008 09:18:42 +0000 (GMT) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 09:18:21 +0000 From: Darren Kenny Subject: Re: LSARC/2008/116 - XDG User Dirs In-reply-to: <20080228051504.GP21674@Sun.COM> Sender: Darren.Kenny@sun.com To: Nicolas Williams Cc: John Plocher , Hugh McIntyre , John Fischer , lsarc-ext@sun.com Message-id: <47C67C5D.90504@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200802261730.m1QHUlbH023977@tmp1.sfbay.sun.com> <47C5335E.9060506@Sun.COM> <47C5C149.9050309@Sun.Com> <47C62A1A.3010807@mcintyreweb.com> <47C63724.8040702@Sun.Com> <20080228051504.GP21674@Sun.COM> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (X11/20080225) Status: RO Content-Length: 1584 Nicolas Williams wrote: > On Wed, Feb 27, 2008 at 08:23:00PM -0800, John Plocher wrote: >> Hugh McIntyre wrote: >>> But on the other hand, I'm fairly sure that it I type "mv Music >>> Music.old" on MacOS, the desktop does not track this and instead creates >>> a new Music directory next time I fire up iTunes. In fact, if using "mv >>> Music Music.backup", I've relied on this in the past. Sometimes the >>> user may want the system to start with a new directory... >> >> The current behavior is inconsistent. >> >> If you do the rename in the GUI file manager, the "remembered" name is updated, >> but if you do it via the desktop terminal program, it doesn't. >> >> Doing it the same (always updating or never) would be good; it is the difference >> in behavior that is bad, combined with a hidden remembered value that is difficult >> to change. >> >> If the desktop starts up and can't find the expected/old dir, there needs >> to be a way for me to update the "remembered value": "please use 'Music' instead >> of the default 'My Music'..." > > Yeah, it'd be better if the thing was re-created with the "remembered" > name when you rename it. Instead there should be a way to tell the > system where you want your music (images, whatever). That sounds a lot > more sane to me. I believe that the reasoning behind this is that if you remove the directory then you don't want it again - if we were to change to re-creating the directory then each time the user logs in a directory that they removed will re-appear - in some ways this is actually more annoying. Darren. From Darren.Kenny@sun.com Thu Feb 28 01:32:18 2008 Received: from sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m1S9WH2E026495 for ; Thu, 28 Feb 2008 01:32:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m1S9W45q008263 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:lsarc-ext@sun.com>; Thu, 28 Feb 2008 17:32:17 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JWX00B0JZTS5O00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for lsarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT lsarc-ext@sun.com); Thu, 28 Feb 2008 02:32:16 -0700 (MST) Received: from gmp-eb-inf-1.sun.com ([192.18.6.21]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JWX00A8QZTQRI00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for lsarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT lsarc-ext@sun.com); Thu, 28 Feb 2008 02:32:15 -0700 (MST) Received: from fe-emea-09.sun.com (gmp-eb-lb-2-fe2.eu.sun.com [192.18.6.11]) by gmp-eb-inf-1.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m1S9WEGg004709 for ; Thu, 28 Feb 2008 09:32:14 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.fe-emea-09.sun.com by fe-emea-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0JWX00501YOJPO00@fe-emea-09.sun.com> (original mail from Darren.Kenny@Sun.COM) for lsarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT lsarc-ext@sun.com); Thu, 28 Feb 2008 09:32:14 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [129.156.226.241] by fe-emea-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0JWX00CETZTBVZ30@fe-emea-09.sun.com> for lsarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT lsarc-ext@sun.com); Thu, 28 Feb 2008 09:32:00 +0000 (GMT) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 09:31:39 +0000 From: Darren Kenny Subject: Re: LSARC/2008/116 - XDG User Dirs In-reply-to: <47C63724.8040702@Sun.Com> Sender: Darren.Kenny@sun.com To: John Plocher Cc: Hugh McIntyre , John Fischer , lsarc-ext@sun.com Message-id: <47C67F7B.4080600@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200802261730.m1QHUlbH023977@tmp1.sfbay.sun.com> <47C5335E.9060506@Sun.COM> <47C5C149.9050309@Sun.Com> <47C62A1A.3010807@mcintyreweb.com> <47C63724.8040702@Sun.Com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (X11/20080225) Status: RO Content-Length: 2727 I need to make a correction on my original statement. As I see it right now the main issue is the inconsistency between mv and nautilus - I've done a scan of the nautilus code to see exactly how it's doing things and it turns out that the code that handles this is actually implemented in form a file-monitor.[1] This means that nautilus *should* notice the change whether it's done using nautilus itself or the mv command - provided the user is logged in at the time and running nautilus. Saying that - this doesn't seem to be working at present (which is why I didn't see any reflection in the config file when I used mv) - so I see this as a bug in nautilus which I will follow up on with the community, since it doesn't appear to be working on Linux either. Thanks, Darren. [1] - You can peruse the code, and search for xdg_dir_changed, at: http://svn.gnome.org/viewvc/nautilus/trunk/libnautilus-private/nautilus-file-utilities.c?revision=13701&view=markup John Plocher wrote: > Hugh McIntyre wrote: >> But on the other hand, I'm fairly sure that it I type "mv Music >> Music.old" on MacOS, the desktop does not track this and instead creates >> a new Music directory next time I fire up iTunes. In fact, if using "mv >> Music Music.backup", I've relied on this in the past. Sometimes the >> user may want the system to start with a new directory... > > > The current behavior is inconsistent. > > If you do the rename in the GUI file manager, the "remembered" name is updated, > but if you do it via the desktop terminal program, it doesn't. > > Doing it the same (always updating or never) would be good; it is the difference > in behavior that is bad, combined with a hidden remembered value that is difficult > to change. You have to remember that the main use-case for this is a regular desktop user - not the type that always launches a terminal to move a file around - using a terminal to do things is always a risk with the desktop since you're not using any of it's interfaces. A regular user will expect the change to be remembered, but I think expecting it to be consistent when you go to the system level and make the change is asking a lot - especially when Solaris is never designed with the desktop in mind - in contrast to the likes of Apple who work from the desktop down not the other way around. If, for example we were to follow Apples case and simply stop the user from moving the directory, would we not be accused of breaking an existing system interface in a very bad way too. > > If the desktop starts up and can't find the expected/old dir, there needs > to be a way for me to update the "remembered value": "please use 'Music' instead > of the default 'My Music'..." > From Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de Thu Feb 28 03:11:39 2008 Received: from newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (newsunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.245]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m1SBBcKI029467 for ; Thu, 28 Feb 2008 03:11:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m1SBBZm9041756; Thu, 28 Feb 2008 04:11:37 -0700 (MST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JWY00E1V4FCTB00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Thu, 28 Feb 2008 03:11:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com ([192.18.98.36]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JWY003DU4E2C0A0@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Thu, 28 Feb 2008 03:10:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay42i.sun.com ([192.5.209.72]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m1SAx5VK026942; Thu, 28 Feb 2008 11:10:50 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mms49es.sun.com ([160.41.221.233] [160.41.221.233]) by relay42i.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-428509; Thu, 28 Feb 2008 11:10:50 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay41i.sun.com (relay41i.sun.com [192.5.209.70]) by mms49es.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-3719120; Thu, 28 Feb 2008 11:10:49 +0000 (Z) Received: from mailgw2-out.fraunhofer.de ([153.96.1.28] [153.96.1.28]) by relay4i.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-4197095; Thu, 28 Feb 2008 11:10:49 +0000 (Z) Received: from mailgw23.noc.fraunhofer.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailgw2-out.fraunhofer.de[host mailgw23] (8.14.2+/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m1SBAlLD022451; Thu, 28 Feb 2008 12:10:47 +0100 (CET) Received: from pluto.fokus.fraunhofer.de (pluto.fokus.fraunhofer.de [195.37.77.164]) by mailgw23.noc.fraunhofer.de (8.14.2+/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m1SBAkpI022400 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 28 Feb 2008 12:10:47 +0100 (CET) Received: from EXCHSRV.fokus.fraunhofer.de (bohr [10.147.9.231]) by pluto.fokus.fraunhofer.de (8.13.7/8.13.7) with SMTP id m1SBAkbd008453; Thu, 28 Feb 2008 12:10:46 +0100 (MET) Received: from rigel ([10.147.65.195]) by EXCHSRV.fokus.fraunhofer.de with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Thu, 28 Feb 2008 12:10:47 +0100 Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 12:10:46 +0100 From: Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (Joerg Schilling) Subject: Re: LSARC/2008/116 - XDG User Dirs In-reply-to: <47C5F3D1.4080208@sun.com> To: John.Plocher@sun.com, John.Fischer@sun.com Cc: lsarc-ext@sun.com, johnf@tmp1.sfbay.sun.com, Darren.Kenny@sun.com Message-id: <47c696b6.zHnk6IKuCcIq3WiY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== X-Fraunhofer-Email-Policy: accepted X-Antispam: No, score=0.0/5.0, scanned in 0.121sec at (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smf-spamd v1.3.1 - http://smfs.sf.net/ References: <200802261730.m1QHUlbH023977@tmp1.sfbay.sun.com> <47C5335E.9060506@Sun.COM> <47C5C149.9050309@Sun.Com> <47C5F3D1.4080208@sun.com> X-Authentication-warning: mailgw23.noc.fraunhofer.de: Host localhost [127.0.0.1] claimed to be mailgw23.noc.fraunhofer.de User-Agent: nail 11.22 3/20/05 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Feb 2008 11:10:47.0436 (UTC) FILETIME=[91C39CC0:01C879FA] Status: RO Content-Length: 837 John Fischer wrote: > John, > > So I can 'mv /etc/passwd' and the whole system is messed up. > Yes, I know an extreme example that is protected by permissions. You need the permissions to rename files in /etc and yes: UNIX allows you to do strange thing with strange results. But UNIX at least had a workaround for the problem and did give you root permissions without passwd if /etc/passwd did not exist. People used this to become root by typing "lpr -r /etc/passwd" (remove file after printing) as user ;-) Jörg -- EMail:joerg@schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin js@cs.tu-berlin.de (uni) schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily From John.Plocher@sun.com Thu Feb 28 08:02:27 2008 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m1SG2RaR006252 for ; Thu, 28 Feb 2008 08:02:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m1SG2M9e009200 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:lsarc-ext@sun.com>; Thu, 28 Feb 2008 08:02:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JWY00A33HW1J800@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for lsarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT lsarc-ext@Sun.COM); Thu, 28 Feb 2008 08:02:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from sca-es-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.43.132]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JWY00JDAHVYWCB0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for lsarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT lsarc-ext@Sun.COM); Thu, 28 Feb 2008 08:02:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from fe-sfbay-09.sun.com ([192.18.43.129]) by sca-es-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m1SG2M7T016928 for ; Thu, 28 Feb 2008 08:02:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from conversion-daemon.fe-sfbay-09.sun.com by fe-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0JWY00401HREX000@fe-sfbay-09.sun.com> (original mail from John.Plocher@Sun.COM) for lsarc-ext@Sun.COM (ORCPT lsarc-ext@Sun.COM); Thu, 28 Feb 2008 08:02:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from wp668.local ([208.74.177.212]) by fe-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0JWY0047PHVXKIA0@fe-sfbay-09.sun.com> for lsarc-ext@Sun.COM (ORCPT lsarc-ext@Sun.COM); Thu, 28 Feb 2008 08:02:21 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 08:02:21 -0800 From: John Plocher Subject: Re: LSARC/2008/116 - XDG User Dirs In-reply-to: <47C67F7B.4080600@Sun.COM> Sender: John.Plocher@sun.com To: Darren Kenny Cc: Hugh McIntyre , John Fischer , lsarc-ext@sun.com Message-id: <47C6DB0D.7010801@Sun.Com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200802261730.m1QHUlbH023977@tmp1.sfbay.sun.com> <47C5335E.9060506@Sun.COM> <47C5C149.9050309@Sun.Com> <47C62A1A.3010807@mcintyreweb.com> <47C63724.8040702@Sun.Com> <47C67F7B.4080600@Sun.COM> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Macintosh/20071031) Status: RO Content-Length: 920 Darren Kenny wrote: > I need to make a correction on my original statement. > > As I see it right now the main issue is the inconsistency between mv and > nautilus - I've done a scan of the nautilus code to see exactly how it's doing > things and it turns out that the code that handles this is actually implemented > in form a file-monitor.[1] > > This means that nautilus *should* notice the change whether it's done using > nautilus itself or the mv command - provided the user is logged in at the time > and running nautilus. > > Saying that - this doesn't seem to be working at present (which is why I didn't > see any reflection in the config file when I used mv) - so I see this as a bug > in nautilus which I will follow up on with the community, since it doesn't > appear to be working on Linux either. If so, then I'm satisfied and we can drop this issue. Thanks for the additional insight. -John From Nicolas.Williams@sun.com Thu Feb 28 08:05:03 2008 Received: from sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m1SG52Rs006368 for ; Thu, 28 Feb 2008 08:05:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m1SG4qtS012912; Fri, 29 Feb 2008 00:04:57 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JWY0030ZI07KJ00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Thu, 28 Feb 2008 08:04:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM ([129.153.128.104]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JWY001DKI06ZP30@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Thu, 28 Feb 2008 08:04:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m1SG4rj9022665; Thu, 28 Feb 2008 10:04:53 -0600 (CST) Received: (from nw141292@localhost) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1/Submit) id m1SG4rR5022664; Thu, 28 Feb 2008 10:04:53 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 10:04:53 -0600 From: Nicolas Williams Subject: Re: LSARC/2008/116 - XDG User Dirs In-reply-to: <47C67C5D.90504@Sun.COM> To: Darren Kenny Cc: John Plocher , Hugh McIntyre , John Fischer , lsarc-ext@sun.com Message-id: <20080228160453.GZ21674@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200802261730.m1QHUlbH023977@tmp1.sfbay.sun.com> <47C5335E.9060506@Sun.COM> <47C5C149.9050309@Sun.Com> <47C62A1A.3010807@mcintyreweb.com> <47C63724.8040702@Sun.Com> <20080228051504.GP21674@Sun.COM> <47C67C5D.90504@Sun.COM> X-Authentication-warning: binky.Central.Sun.COM: nw141292 set sender to Nicolas.Williams@sun.com using -f User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.7i Status: RO Content-Length: 1871 On Thu, Feb 28, 2008 at 09:18:21AM +0000, Darren Kenny wrote: > Nicolas Williams wrote: > > On Wed, Feb 27, 2008 at 08:23:00PM -0800, John Plocher wrote: > >> Hugh McIntyre wrote: > >>> But on the other hand, I'm fairly sure that it I type "mv Music > >>> Music.old" on MacOS, the desktop does not track this and instead creates > >>> a new Music directory next time I fire up iTunes. In fact, if using "mv > >>> Music Music.backup", I've relied on this in the past. Sometimes the > >>> user may want the system to start with a new directory... > >> > >> The current behavior is inconsistent. > >> > >> If you do the rename in the GUI file manager, the "remembered" name is updated, > >> but if you do it via the desktop terminal program, it doesn't. > >> > >> Doing it the same (always updating or never) would be good; it is the difference > >> in behavior that is bad, combined with a hidden remembered value that is difficult > >> to change. > >> > >> If the desktop starts up and can't find the expected/old dir, there needs > >> to be a way for me to update the "remembered value": "please use 'Music' instead > >> of the default 'My Music'..." > > > > Yeah, it'd be better if the thing was re-created with the "remembered" > > name when you rename it. Instead there should be a way to tell the > > system where you want your music (images, whatever). That sounds a lot > > more sane to me. > > I believe that the reasoning behind this is that if you remove the directory > then you don't want it again - if we were to change to re-creating the directory > then each time the user logs in a directory that they removed will re-appear - > in some ways this is actually more annoying. Just as you could (and, IMO, should) provide an interface by which the user can say "my music goes in ~/FOO" you could also have one by which to say "I don't have music." From John.Fischer@sun.com Wed Mar 5 08:55:58 2008 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m25GtvXs002030 for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2008 08:55:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m25GtttN026181 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:lsarc-ext@sun.com>; Wed, 5 Mar 2008 16:55:56 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JX90052POD65M00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for lsarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT lsarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 05 Mar 2008 09:55:54 -0700 (MST) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com ([192.18.98.36]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JX900D1FOD3P0D0@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for lsarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT lsarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 05 Mar 2008 09:55:52 -0700 (MST) Received: from fe-amer-10.sun.com ([192.18.109.80]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m25Gtpim020032 for ; Wed, 05 Mar 2008 16:55:51 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.mail-amer.sun.com by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0JX900L01NU0MG00@mail-amer.sun.com> (original mail from John.Fischer@Sun.COM) for lsarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT lsarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 05 Mar 2008 09:55:51 -0700 (MST) Received: from 129.145.154.84 ([129.145.154.84]) by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0JX900AJCOCV6Y80@mail-amer.sun.com> for lsarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT lsarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 05 Mar 2008 09:55:44 -0700 (MST) Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2008 08:55:43 -0800 From: John Fischer Subject: Re: LSARC/2008/116 - XDG User Dirs In-reply-to: <47C6DB0D.7010801@Sun.Com> Sender: John.Fischer@sun.com To: John Plocher Cc: John Fischer , Darren Kenny , Hugh McIntyre , John Fischer , lsarc-ext@sun.com Reply-to: John.Fischer@sun.com Message-id: <1204736142.40819.7.camel@sr1-umpk-34> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.6.301c Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200802261730.m1QHUlbH023977@tmp1.sfbay.sun.com> <47C5335E.9060506@Sun.COM> <47C5C149.9050309@Sun.Com> <47C62A1A.3010807@mcintyreweb.com> <47C63724.8040702@Sun.Com> <47C67F7B.4080600@Sun.COM> <47C6DB0D.7010801@Sun.Com> Status: RO Content-Length: 1124 All, With all the questions having been answered I am marking this case closed approved. Thanks, John On Thu, 2008-02-28 at 08:02, John Plocher wrote: > Darren Kenny wrote: > > I need to make a correction on my original statement. > > > > As I see it right now the main issue is the inconsistency between mv and > > nautilus - I've done a scan of the nautilus code to see exactly how it's doing > > things and it turns out that the code that handles this is actually implemented > > in form a file-monitor.[1] > > > > This means that nautilus *should* notice the change whether it's done using > > nautilus itself or the mv command - provided the user is logged in at the time > > and running nautilus. > > > > Saying that - this doesn't seem to be working at present (which is why I didn't > > see any reflection in the config file when I used mv) - so I see this as a bug > > in nautilus which I will follow up on with the community, since it doesn't > > appear to be working on Linux either. > > If so, then I'm satisfied and we can drop this issue. > Thanks for the additional insight. > > -John > > >