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Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 12:56:20 -0700
From: Rich Burridge <rich.burridge@sun.com>
Subject: PSARC 2005/532 - Python migration from /usr/sfw to /usr and upgrade to
 v2.4.x
To: psarc@sun.com
Cc: William.Walker@sun.com
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I'm sponsoring this fast-track for myself on behalf of the Orca project.

It is being sent to PSARC (as opposed to LSARC for example) because the
case that originally saw Python added to /usr/sfw (PSARC 2000/488) was
originally handled by this committee.

The proposal is included below. It can also be found at:

   http://sac.sfbay.sun.com/arc/PSARC/2005/532/proposal.txt

The case directory also includes:

* a full list of the files installed by this project:
   http://sac.sfbay.sun.com/arc/PSARC/2005/532/fasttrack.materials/files.txt

* the Solaris package maps, as automatically generated from the
   SUNWPython.spec file by the JDS build environment:

    http://sac.sfbay.sun.com/arc/PSARC/2005/532/fasttrack.materials/PKGMAPS/

The requested release binding is minor.

Timer set for 22nd September 2005.

--
Rich Burridge                       Email:     rich.burridge@Sun.COM
Sun Microsystems Inc. (MPK14-260),  Phone:     +1.650.786.5188
4150 Network Circle,                AIM/YAHOO: RicBurridge
Santa Clara, CA 95054               Blog:      http://blogs.sun.com/richb



-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Template Version: @(#)sac_nextcase 1.55 08/11/04 SMI
Copyright 2005 Sun Microsystems, Inc.

1. Introduction
     1.1. Project/Component Working Name:

         Python migration from /usr/sfw to /usr and upgrade to v2.4.x

     1.2. Name of Document Author/Supplier:

         Author:  Rich Burridge

     1.3  Date of This Document:

         15 September 2005


4. Technical Description

The migration of Python for Solaris from /usr/sfw to /usr and
upgrade from v2.3 to v2.4.


1. Summary

    This proposal is to migrate the Solaris Python files currently
    installed under /usr/sfw, into the WOS under /usr.

    At the same time, we will upgrade from the existing 2.3.x version
    to version 2.4.x [1].

    The requested release binding is minor.


2. Background

    Python was one of several software packages that were delivered
    as part of the Solaris/Linux Commands Compatibility case
    (PSARC 2000/488 [3]). Because of the Open Source nature of these
    software packages, that case introduced a new External interface
    taxonomy level and integrated the software under /usr/sfw.

    Since that time, we've seen several software distributions migrate
    from /usr/sfw directly into the WOS.

    Over the next couple of months, LSARC will see the following two
    cases:

    Orca Screen Reader/Magnifier for the JDS Desktop        (LSARC/2005/504) [4]

    Support Libraries for the Orca Screen Reader/Magnifier  (LSARC/2005/506) [5]

    Both of these projects would deliver Python files that would need
    to live under the site-packages directory of the Python install area.
    On Solaris, this is currently:

      /usr/sfw/lib/python2.3/site-packages

    They will also need Python 2.4.x.

    Rather than add yet more software under /usr/sfw when we are really
    trying to migrate applications to be under /usr, the intention is to first
    move Python to /usr, then for the Orca related files to install under

      /usr/lib/python2.4/site-packages


3. Proposed Solution

    To replace Python 2.3.x with v2.4.x, and to adjust the installation
    base directory location from /usr/sfw to /usr.

    We are requesting a minor release binding for this fast-track as it
    is understood that there may be binary incompatibilites between the
    Python 2.3 and Python 2.4 files. If a user had installed some extra
    Python packages under their Python v2.3 "site-packages" directory, then
    we could not guarantee they would work correctly if we just migrated
    them into the Python 2.4 "site-packages" directory as part of the
    installation process.


4. Installation Details

    The installation scheme for Python v2.4.x is similar to that presented
    for Python in PSARC 2000/488, except the installation base directory
    location is now /usr instead of /usr/sfw.

    See .../fasttrack.materials/files.txt for a full list of the
    installed files.

    The Solaris package maps, as automatically generated from the
    SUNWPython.spec file by the JDS build environment, can be found at:

    .../fasttrack.materials/PKGMAPS/copyright/SUNWPython-devel.copyright
    .../fasttrack.materials/PKGMAPS/copyright/SUNWPython-share.copyright
    .../fasttrack.materials/PKGMAPS/copyright/SUNWPython-src.copyright
    .../fasttrack.materials/PKGMAPS/copyright/SUNWPython.copyright

    .../fasttrack.materials/PKGMAPS/depend/SUNWPython-devel.depend
    .../fasttrack.materials/PKGMAPS/depend/SUNWPython-share.depend
    .../fasttrack.materials/PKGMAPS/depend/SUNWPython.depend

    .../fasttrack.materials/PKGMAPS/pkginfo/SUNWPython-devel.pkginfo
    .../fasttrack.materials/PKGMAPS/pkginfo/SUNWPython-share.pkginfo
    .../fasttrack.materials/PKGMAPS/pkginfo/SUNWPython-src.pkginfo
    .../fasttrack.materials/PKGMAPS/pkginfo/SUNWPython.pkginfo

    .../fasttrack.materials/PKGMAPS/proto/SUNWPython-devel.proto
    .../fasttrack.materials/PKGMAPS/proto/SUNWPython-share.proto
    .../fasttrack.materials/PKGMAPS/proto/SUNWPython-src.proto
    .../fasttrack.materials/PKGMAPS/proto/SUNWPython.proto


5. Interface Stability

     Python, as an Open Source effort, is revised by a group external to
     Sun.  This group maintains compatibility with previous releases of
     Python and defines its reference syntax in their provided
     documentation [2].

     INTERFACE		     |   CLASSIFICATION
     -------------------------+-----------------
     Python 2.4.x  code base  |   External
     directory layout	     |   Evolving


6. Documentation

     The Python documentation will continue to be provided in
     the form of an external manual page, python.1, which contains
     pointers to the complete Python documentation on the Internet.


7. Resources and Schedule
     7.4. Steering Committee requested information
           7.4.1. Consolidation C-team Name:

               JDS

     7.5. ARC review type: FastTrack


8. References

    [1] http://www.python.org/2.4.1/
    [2] http://www.python.org/doc/2.4.1/

    [3] PSARC/2000/488 - Solaris/Linux Commands Compatibility
    [4] LSARC/2005/504 - Orca Screen Reader/Magnifier for the JDS Desktop
    [5] LSARC/2005/506 - Support Libraries for the Orca Screen Reader/Magnifier

From sacadmin Thu Sep 15 13:04:29 2005
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Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 16:04:26 -0400
From: James Carlson <james.d.carlson@Sun.COM>
To: Rich Burridge <Rich.Burridge@Sun.COM>
Cc: psarc@Sun.COM, William.Walker@Sun.COM
Subject: Re: PSARC 2005/532 - Python migration from /usr/sfw to /usr and upgrade to
 v2.4.x
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Rich Burridge writes:
>     This proposal is to migrate the Solaris Python files currently
>     installed under /usr/sfw, into the WOS under /usr.

Should there be a /usr/sfw/bin/python -> /usr/bin/python symlink, just
in case somebody, somewhere managed to write a script in that
language?

-- 
James Carlson, KISS Network                    <james.d.carlson@sun.com>
Sun Microsystems / 1 Network Drive         71.232W   Vox +1 781 442 2084
MS UBUR02-212 / Burlington MA 01803-2757   42.496N   Fax +1 781 442 1677

From sacadmin Thu Sep 15 13:20:08 2005
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Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 13:20:04 -0700
From: Tim Marsland <tpm@eng.sun.com>
To: Rich Burridge <rich.burridge@sun.com>
Cc: psarc@sun.com, William.Walker@sun.com
Subject: Re: PSARC 2005/532 - Python migration from /usr/sfw to /usr and upgrade to v2.4.x
Message-ID: <20050915202004.GB626442@eng.sun.com>
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[I asked Rich this directly as part of some carping about a python
bug, but it seems to sufficiently like architecture for me to raise it
here.]

What level of compatibility is there between 2.3.3 and 2.4.x?

There's an increasing amount of python software in the world, not
just our stuff.  Should we ship both run-times for a while
(c.f. perl and java)?  Is there any data (I have anecdotes ..)

tim

From sacadmin Thu Sep 15 13:35:01 2005
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Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 13:34:59 -0700
From: Danek Duvall <danek.duvall@sun.com>
Subject: Re: PSARC 2005/532 - Python migration from /usr/sfw to /usr and
 upgrade to v2.4.x
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On Thu, Sep 15, 2005 at 12:56:20PM -0700, Rich Burridge wrote:

>    Both of these projects would deliver Python files that would need
>    to live under the site-packages directory of the Python install area.
>    On Solaris, this is currently:
> 
>      /usr/sfw/lib/python2.3/site-packages

I'm not sure if this is intended to be part of this case, but site-packages
is an inappropriate place to put files we deliver, just as site_perl is
inappropriate.  I don't know if Python has something akin to perl's
vendor_perl but something similar shouldn't be difficult to create.  If
that's not feasible, then these components should put their files outside
the python subtree, and point themselves explicitly at those file, rather
than relying on the interpreter to find them.

Danek

From sacadmin Thu Sep 15 13:36:11 2005
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Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 13:34:30 -0700
From: Rich Burridge <rich.burridge@sun.com>
Subject: Re: PSARC 2005/532 - Python migration from /usr/sfw to /usr and
 upgrade to v2.4.x
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James Carlson wrote:
> Should there be a /usr/sfw/bin/python -> /usr/bin/python symlink, just
> in case somebody, somewhere managed to write a script in that
> language?

Excellent idea. I've updated the proposal to reflect this. I've added
change bars to reflect the new text. A new paragraph has been added to
section 3:

|    A symlink from /usr/sfw/bin/python to /usr/bin/python will be provided
|    in case any users directly used this in their scripts. This interface
|    is classified Obsolete, with the intention of removing it in the
|    following minor release.

and an addition entry has been added to the interface table in section 5:

|     /usr/sfw/bin/python      |   Obsolete
|     (symlink to              |
|      /usr/bin/python)        |

Full updated proposal at:

   http://sac.sfbay.sun.com/arc/PSARC/2005/532/proposal.txt

Thanks.


From sacadmin Thu Sep 15 13:39:30 2005
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Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 13:37:48 -0700
From: Rich Burridge <rich.burridge@sun.com>
Subject: Re: PSARC 2005/532 - Python migration from /usr/sfw to /usr and
 upgrade to v2.4.x
In-reply-to: <20050915202004.GB626442@eng.sun.com>
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Tim Marsland wrote:
> [I asked Rich this directly as part of some carping about a python
> bug, but it seems to sufficiently like architecture for me to raise it
> here.]
> 
> What level of compatibility is there between 2.3.3 and 2.4.x?
> 
> There's an increasing amount of python software in the world, not
> just our stuff.  Should we ship both run-times for a while
> (c.f. perl and java)?  Is there any data (I have anecdotes ..)

For the record, here's my reply to Tim:

   "I don't know exactly how incompatible v2.3.x and v2.4.x are. From trying
    to find the answer on IRC this morning, I gained the impression that v2.3.x
    .py files should work just fine with v2.4.x Python, but no guarantees for the .pyc
    or .pyo files. I also searched their web site (http://www.python.org) but
    found nothing definitive."

If anybody is more familiar with this, please respond. I'll also try
an email on one of the Python mailing lists to see what I can find out.



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Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 13:46:52 -0700
From: Rich Burridge <rich.burridge@sun.com>
Subject: Re: PSARC 2005/532 - Python migration from /usr/sfw to /usr and
 upgrade to v2.4.x
In-reply-to: <20050915203459.GF2714@viper.eng.sun.com>
To: Danek Duvall <Danek.Duvall@sun.com>
Cc: psarc@sun.com, William.Walker@sun.com
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Danek Duvall wrote:
> On Thu, Sep 15, 2005 at 12:56:20PM -0700, Rich Burridge wrote:
> 
> 
>>   Both of these projects would deliver Python files that would need
>>   to live under the site-packages directory of the Python install area.
>>   On Solaris, this is currently:
>>
>>     /usr/sfw/lib/python2.3/site-packages
> 
> 
> I'm not sure if this is intended to be part of this case, but site-packages
> is an inappropriate place to put files we deliver, just as site_perl is
> inappropriate.  I don't know if Python has something akin to perl's
> vendor_perl but something similar shouldn't be difficult to create.  If
> that's not feasible, then these components should put their files outside
> the python subtree, and point themselves explicitly at those file, rather
> than relying on the interpreter to find them.

The Python email thread at:

   http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2003-August/037487.html

discusses this, in particular:

   http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2003-August/037492.html

which states:

   "The Python distribution knows about four types of
    packages: core distribution, site-packages, site-python, and
    PYTHONPATH."

This would indicate that there is no equivalent in Python to Perl's
vendor_perl. Now we could use PYTHONPATH for the Orca .py files,
but why would it be inappropriate to not just put them under
"site-packages"?

Can you give us a chapter/verse that explicitely says that this
shouldn't be done?




From sacadmin Thu Sep 15 14:08:09 2005
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Subject: Re: PSARC 2005/532 - Python migration from /usr/sfw to /usr and
	upgrade to v2.4.x
From: Bill Sommerfeld <sommerfeld@sun.com>
To: Rich Burridge <Rich.Burridge@sun.com>
Cc: Tim Marsland <Tim.Marsland@sun.com>, psarc@sun.com, William.Walker@sun.com
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On Thu, 2005-09-15 at 16:37, Rich Burridge wrote:
> If anybody is more familiar with this, please respond. I'll also try
> an email on one of the Python mailing lists to see what I can find out.

I'm not, myself, but I know people who are, and their comments include:

 "Backwards compatibility for shared-object binaries is taken less
seriously.  Sometimes I've had to rebuild stuff to shut up warnings
about being built against an old version of python.",

"Under debian, there's a lot of packages that aren't built for python
2.4,  but there's a lot of features in 2.4 that aren't in 2.3.  So I
keep both versions installed.",

and

"For someone who has a single source tree and can assert that everything
rebuilds all at once, the concern does not apply."

so this would appear to be another case where keeping multiple versions
around will be required.

Like perl, /usr/sfw/bin/python is, at present, installed as a link to
"python2.3"; ignoring the /usr/sfw -> /usr move, a reasonable migration
strategy going forward would seem to update the link to point to the
newest version and keep the older one around during the transition.

						- Bill



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Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 14:17:23 -0700
From: Danek Duvall <danek.duvall@sun.com>
Subject: Re: PSARC 2005/532 - Python migration from /usr/sfw to /usr and
 upgrade to v2.4.x
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On Thu, Sep 15, 2005 at 01:46:52PM -0700, Rich Burridge wrote:

> This would indicate that there is no equivalent in Python to Perl's
> vendor_perl. Now we could use PYTHONPATH for the Orca .py files,
> but why would it be inappropriate to not just put them under
> "site-packages"?
> 
> Can you give us a chapter/verse that explicitely says that this
> shouldn't be done?

I can't (at least, not without further digging, or asking explicitly in the
Python community).  But in the perl world, at least, site-* is intended
exclusively for the customer to use.  That hasn't always been the case, but
some time in the recent past, vendor_perl was added to allow for things
that are delivered along with perl by a distribution vendor, but are not
part of the core bits.

The user-customizable directory can be used to override the core and vendor
directories without overwriting any part of the distribution.  I don't know
if the Python community has found a need for it, but as the language's
popularity grows and more system distributors use it, it's likely that
they'll need to do the same thing that perl did.

FWIW, Gentoo, which implements much of its core functionality in Python,
has at the start of its Python scripts

    sys.path = ["/usr/lib/portage/pym"]+sys.path

rather than cluttering /usr/lib/pythonX.Y, and rather than adding an entry
to the interpreter's default search path.

Danek

From sacadmin Thu Sep 15 14:30:49 2005
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Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 14:29:08 -0700
From: Rich Burridge <Rich.Burridge@sun.com>
Subject: [Fwd: Re: PSARC 2005/532 - Python migration from /usr/sfw to /usr and
 upgrade to v2.4.x]
To: Danek Duvall <Danek.Duvall@sun.com>
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Okay. Thanks Danek.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is really an
issue for the two subsequent LSARC Orca cases, rather than integral
to the Python migration, (and we will make sure that we do the right
thing there), so isn't still an open concern for this case.

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: PSARC 2005/532 - Python migration from /usr/sfw to /usr and upgrade to v2.4.x
Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 14:17:23 -0700
From: Danek Duvall <Danek.Duvall@Sun.COM>
To: Rich Burridge <Rich.Burridge@Sun.COM>
CC: psarc@sun.com, William.Walker@Sun.COM
References: <4329D1E4.5060209@sun.com> <20050915203459.GF2714@viper.eng.sun.com> <4329DDBC.6060402@sun.com>

On Thu, Sep 15, 2005 at 01:46:52PM -0700, Rich Burridge wrote:

> This would indicate that there is no equivalent in Python to Perl's
> vendor_perl. Now we could use PYTHONPATH for the Orca .py files,
> but why would it be inappropriate to not just put them under
> "site-packages"?
> 
> Can you give us a chapter/verse that explicitely says that this
> shouldn't be done?

I can't (at least, not without further digging, or asking explicitly in the
Python community).  But in the perl world, at least, site-* is intended
exclusively for the customer to use.  That hasn't always been the case, but
some time in the recent past, vendor_perl was added to allow for things
that are delivered along with perl by a distribution vendor, but are not
part of the core bits.

The user-customizable directory can be used to override the core and vendor
directories without overwriting any part of the distribution.  I don't know
if the Python community has found a need for it, but as the language's
popularity grows and more system distributors use it, it's likely that
they'll need to do the same thing that perl did.

FWIW, Gentoo, which implements much of its core functionality in Python,
has at the start of its Python scripts

     sys.path = ["/usr/lib/portage/pym"]+sys.path

rather than cluttering /usr/lib/pythonX.Y, and rather than adding an entry
to the interpreter's default search path.

Danek

From sacadmin Thu Sep 15 14:49:43 2005
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Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 14:49:39 -0700
From: Danek Duvall <danek.duvall@sun.com>
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: PSARC 2005/532 - Python migration from /usr/sfw to /usr
 and upgrade to v2.4.x]
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On Thu, Sep 15, 2005 at 02:29:08PM -0700, Rich Burridge wrote:

> Okay. Thanks Danek.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is really an
> issue for the two subsequent LSARC Orca cases, rather than integral
> to the Python migration, (and we will make sure that we do the right
> thing there), so isn't still an open concern for this case.

I figured as much; I just wasn't sure if your comment about this in the
proposal was actually part of this case or not.  I'll complain in the
future cases.  :)

Danek

From sacadmin Fri Sep 16 09:43:06 2005
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Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 09:41:23 -0700
From: Rich Burridge <rich.burridge@sun.com>
Subject: Re: PSARC 2005/532 - Python migration from /usr/sfw to /usr and
 upgrade to v2.4.x
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Bill Sommerfeld wrote:
  >> If anybody is more familiar with this, please respond. I'll also try
  >> an email on one of the Python mailing lists to see what I can find out.
  >
  > I'm not, myself, but I know people who are, and their comments include:
  >
  >  "Backwards compatibility for shared-object binaries is taken less
  > seriously.  Sometimes I've had to rebuild stuff to shut up warnings
  > about being built against an old version of python.",
  >
  > "Under debian, there's a lot of packages that aren't built for python
  > 2.4,  but there's a lot of features in 2.4 that aren't in 2.3.  So I
  > keep both versions installed.",
  >
  > and
  >
  > "For someone who has a single source tree and can assert that everything
  > rebuilds all at once, the concern does not apply."
  >
  > so this would appear to be another case where keeping multiple versions
  > around will be required.
  >
  > Like perl, /usr/sfw/bin/python is, at present, installed as a link to
  > "python2.3"; ignoring the /usr/sfw -> /usr move, a reasonable migration
  > strategy going forward would seem to update the link to point to the
  > newest version and keep the older one around during the transition.

Okay. This seems very reasonable.


I've updated the fast-track proposal to reflect this. Changes have been
added with initial change bars.

Sections changed are:

* 2. Background

    This has been slightly adjusted to address Danek's concern, and will
    reflect that the Orca Python files will be delivered somewhere under
    /usr/lib/python2.4 rather than directly under
    /usr/lib/python2.4/site-packages. We will work out exactly what the
    preferred installation location is before the two Orca cases are submitted.

* 3. Proposed Solution

    The first paragraph has been adjusted to show that Python v2.4.x will
    be installed under /usr, but that Python 2.3.x will remain under
    /usr/sfw but will be classified as Obsolete.

    The third paragraph has been adjusted to indicated that the symlink
    /usr/sfw/bin/python will now point to the newer version of Python.

* 4. Installation Details

    A line has been added to indication that the current package maps
    included with the fast-track materials, do not include the Python
    2.3.x files.

* 5. Interface Stability

    The interface stability table has been adjusted to show that the Python
    2.3.x code base has been marked as Obsolete.

* 6. Documentation

    A paragraph has been added to state that the manual pages will be
    updated to reflect that the older 2.3.x version of Python has now
    been classified as Obsolete, and will be removed from a future
    minor release.


The modified proposal can be found at:

    http://sac.sfbay.sun.com/arc/PSARC/2005/532/proposal.txt

Please let me know if you (or anybody else) have any further comments or concerns.

Thanks.



From sacadmin Fri Sep 16 10:34:26 2005
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Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 10:32:44 -0700
From: Rich Burridge <rich.burridge@sun.com>
Subject: Re: PSARC 2005/532 - Python migration from /usr/sfw to /usr and
 upgrade to v2.4.x
In-reply-to: <20050915202004.GB626442@eng.sun.com>
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For the record, the Python documentation that describes incompatible
changes between Python 2.3.x and Python 2.4.x is at:

     http://docs.python.org/whatsnew/node15.html



From sacadmin Wed Sep 21 11:58:50 2005
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Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 11:58:50 -0700
From: Rich Burridge <rich.burridge@sun.com>
Subject: Re: PSARC 2005/532 - Python migration from /usr/sfw to /usr and
 upgrade to v2.4.x
To: psarc@sun.com
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Per the decision at todays PSARC meeting, this fast-track has been marked
closed approved.


