From dwc@spartan.eng.sun.com Tue Oct 17 10:15:07 2006 Received: from spartan.SFBay.Sun.COM (spartan.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.226.64]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k9HHF7Ut005514 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 10:15:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from spartan.SFBay.Sun.COM (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spartan.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k9HHF7rF004951 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 10:15:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from dwc@localhost) by spartan.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/Submit) id k9HHF708004950 for PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 10:15:07 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 10:15:07 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <200610171715.k9HHF708004950@spartan.SFBay.Sun.COM> From: Don Cragun To: PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com Subject: /etc/ksh.kshrc for ksh93 [PSARC/2006/587 Timeout: 10/24/2006] Status: RO Content-Length: 4460 I had some alias problems when I tried to send this case out yesterday. I think they are all fixed now. For those of you who have seen this before, the only changes are the timeout date and the corrected alias for the community this proposal comes from... Note that this is an open case and the e-mail discussion is being distributed to addresses outside of Sun... I am submitting this case for Roland Mainz (OpenSolaris contributor) and April Chin (Sun sponsor). This is a minor update to PSARC case 2006/550 (Korn Shell 93 Integration). It adds delivery of /etc/ksh.kshrc and, thereby, provides a default command line editing mode for interactive invocations of ksh93. As with 2006/550, this case seeks a patch binding. (The current plan is to integrate into ONNV, but patches to a Solaris 10 Update and Solaris 9 are possible if there is sufficient demand.) This case times out Monday, October 24, 2006. Sincerely, Don Template Version: @(#)sac_nextcase %I% %G% SMI This information Copyright 2006 Sun Microsystems 1. Introduction 1.1. Project/Component Working Name: /etc/ksh.kshrc for ksh93 1.2. Name of Document Author/Supplier: Author: April Chin 1.3 Date of This Document: 16 October, 2006 4. Technical Description Name of Major Document Customer(s)/Consumer(s) The community this proposal comes from: ksh93-integration-discuss@opensolaris.org The ARC(s) you expect to review your project: PSARC Responsible Manager: tim.sparlin@sun.com Responsible Engineers: roland.mainz@nrubsig.org april.chin@sun.com Description and Justification: This case proposes to introduce the new file /etc/ksh.kshrc to the system, as a per-system configuration file for interactive ksh93 (Korn Shell). If an in-line editor has not already been set for this invocation of ksh93, /etc/ksh.kshrc will enable gmacs editing mode. Note that /etc/ksh.kshrc is only used in ksh93 initialization; it has no effect on /usr/bin/ksh nor on /usr/xpg4/bin/sh. This case is dependent upon and shall not integrate before PSARC-EXT/2006/550 "Korn Shell 93 Integration". See the updated ksh93 manpage, (materials/ksh93.1), for a description of the /etc/ksh.kshrc file, which is only invoked for an interactive ksh93 session (that is, it is not used by ksh93 scripts). Updated builtin.1 and disown.1 man pages are also in the materials directory. Note that all of these changes only make editorial changes (missing attributes tables, cross-references, a missing reference to /etc/ksh.kshrc in the ksh93.1 man page's FILES section, and a reference to largefile(5)). ksh93 itself does not set a default editing mode; it would be a standards violation to do so. In an interactive shell, in-line editing will be disabled, unless an in-line editing option is set by one of the configuration files read when the shell is invoked, or is set explicitly by the user. The inclusion of the /etc/ksh.kshrc file to set up a default editing mode will enhance ksh93 usability in a Solaris environment, allowing ease-of-use features such as working cursor keys and file/command name completion, including an editing feature to display a selectable, numbered list of matching names. gmacs is considered an intuitive beginner's editing mode. It is the default editing mode in bash and more or less matches the common input mode of various GUI toolkits and desktops, including Gnome/GTK+, KDE/Qt, CDE/Motif, Mozilla/XULRunner/Gecko, JAVA, and Xaw/Xaw3D. If gmacs mode is not desired as the default, the /etc/ksh.kshrc file may be changed by the system administrator, or the user may turn off or reset the editing mode in their per-user ~/.kshrc configuration file, which is executed after /etc/ksh.kshrc. Interfaces: Interface Stability Description ========= ========= =========== /etc/ksh.kshrc Uncommitted Per-system configuration file for interactive ksh93 sessions References: 1) Korn Shell 93 Integration external PSARC case http://opensolaris.org/os/community/arc/caselog/2006/550/ 2) Discussion on ksh93-integration-discuss@opensolaris.org mailing list of why gmacs is good for default editor mode and some standards concerns on setting a default editor within ksh93 itself: http://www.opensolaris.org/jive/thread.jspa?threadID=8948&tstart=195 3) Mailing list suggestion from David Korn for a default .profile http://www.opensolaris.org/jive/thread.jspa?threadID=9193&tstart=180 From Alan.Coopersmith@Sun.COM Tue Oct 17 10:40:20 2006 Received: from sfbaymail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sfbaymail2sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.42]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k9HHeK5G006181 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 10:40:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Sun.COM [192.18.98.36]) by sfbaymail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.10/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id k9HHeKBr004665 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 10:40:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fe-amer-01.sun.com ([192.18.108.175]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k9HHeIwN003661 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 11:40:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.mail-amer.sun.com by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0J7A00601JBFP900@mail-amer.sun.com> (original mail from Alan.Coopersmith@Sun.COM) for PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 11:40:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [192.9.61.232] by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0J7A00B32JR6OYE2@mail-amer.sun.com>; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 11:40:18 -0600 (MDT) Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 10:41:02 -0700 From: Alan Coopersmith Subject: Re: /etc/ksh.kshrc for ksh93 [PSARC/2006/587 Timeout: 10/24/2006] In-reply-to: <200610171715.k9HHF708004950@spartan.SFBay.Sun.COM> Sender: Alan.Coopersmith@Sun.COM To: Don Cragun Cc: PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com, ksh93-integration-discussion@opensolaris.org Message-id: <453515AE.5080208@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en-us, en References: <200610171715.k9HHF708004950@spartan.SFBay.Sun.COM> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (X11/20050512) Status: RO Content-Length: 488 Don Cragun wrote: > This case proposes to introduce the new file /etc/ksh.kshrc to the > system, as a per-system configuration file for interactive ksh93 (Korn > Shell). Will this file be used by the existing ksh88-based shells in Solaris? (/usr/bin/ksh, /usr/xpg4/bin/sh, and /usr/dt/bin/dtksh) If so, will the proposed contents be compatible with them or affect them? -- -Alan Coopersmith- alan.coopersmith@sun.com Sun Microsystems, Inc. - X Window System Engineering From Alan.Coopersmith@Sun.COM Tue Oct 17 10:46:55 2006 Received: from sfbaymail1sca.SFBay.Sun.COM (sfbaymail1sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.154.35]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k9HHkt4a006389 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 10:46:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Sun.COM [192.18.98.31]) by sfbaymail1sca.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id k9HHkt8J021214 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 10:46:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fe-amer-02.sun.com ([192.18.108.176]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k9HHktmS007942 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 11:46:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.mail-amer.sun.com by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0J7A00E01JXTY500@mail-amer.sun.com> (original mail from Alan.Coopersmith@Sun.COM) for PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 11:46:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [192.9.61.232] by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0J7A00947K22WO03@mail-amer.sun.com>; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 11:46:54 -0600 (MDT) Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 10:47:34 -0700 From: Alan Coopersmith Subject: Re: /etc/ksh.kshrc for ksh93 [PSARC/2006/587 Timeout: 10/24/2006] In-reply-to: <200610171715.k9HHF708004950@spartan.SFBay.Sun.COM> Sender: Alan.Coopersmith@Sun.COM To: Don Cragun Cc: PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com, ksh93-integration-discuss@opensolaris.org Message-id: <45351736.6030002@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en-us, en References: <200610171715.k9HHF708004950@spartan.SFBay.Sun.COM> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (X11/20050512) Status: RO Content-Length: 561 [Sorry - botched address for ksh93 list - resending with it corrected.] Don Cragun wrote: > This case proposes to introduce the new file /etc/ksh.kshrc to the > system, as a per-system configuration file for interactive ksh93 (Korn > Shell). Will this file be used by the existing ksh88-based shells in Solaris? (/usr/bin/ksh, /usr/xpg4/bin/sh, and /usr/dt/bin/dtksh) If so, will the proposed contents be compatible with them or affect them? -- -Alan Coopersmith- alan.coopersmith@sun.com Sun Microsystems, Inc. - X Window System Engineering From April.Chin@eng.sun.com Tue Oct 17 10:50:20 2006 Received: from jurassic.eng.sun.com (jurassic.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.68.130]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k9HHoKJJ006585 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 10:50:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aragon (aragon.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.226.123]) by jurassic.eng.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with SMTP id k9HHoJE8789688; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 10:50:19 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <200610171750.k9HHoJE8789688@jurassic.eng.sun.com> Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 10:50:03 -0700 (PDT) From: April Chin Reply-To: April Chin Subject: Re: [ksh93-integration-discuss] Re: /etc/ksh.kshrc for ksh93 [PSARC/2006/587 Timeout: 10/24/2006] To: don.cragun@sun.com, ksh93-integration-discuss@opensolaris.org Cc: ksh93-integration-discuss@opensolaris.org, PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-MD5: NS7Jr3q5bSAmDRkKHVN3RQ== X-Mailer: dtmail 1.3.0 @(#)CDE Version 1.7_31 SunOS 5.11 sun4u sparc Status: RO Content-Length: 802 > X-Original-To: ksh93-integration-discuss@opensolaris.org > Delivered-To: ksh93-integration-discuss@opensolaris.org > Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 10:47:34 -0700 > From: Alan Coopersmith > Don Cragun wrote: > > This case proposes to introduce the new file /etc/ksh.kshrc to the > > system, as a per-system configuration file for interactive ksh93 (Korn > > Shell). > > Will this file be used by the existing ksh88-based shells in Solaris? > (/usr/bin/ksh, /usr/xpg4/bin/sh, and /usr/dt/bin/dtksh) > If so, will the proposed contents be compatible with them or affect them? > No, /etc/ksh.kshrc will not be used by any ksh88-based shell on Solaris: not /usr/bin/ksh nor /usr/xpg4/bin/sh, nor with /usr/dt/bin/dtksh, which is based on a very early version of ksh93. April From don.cragun@Sun.COM Tue Oct 17 10:53:55 2006 Received: from spartan.SFBay.Sun.COM (spartan.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.226.64]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k9HHrthU006723 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 10:53:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from spartan.SFBay.Sun.COM (spartan.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.226.64]) by spartan.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with SMTP id k9HHrtDc005138; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 10:53:55 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <200610171753.k9HHrtDc005138@spartan.SFBay.Sun.COM> Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 10:53:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Don Cragun Reply-To: Don Cragun Subject: Re: /etc/ksh.kshrc for ksh93 [PSARC/2006/587 Timeout: 10/24/2006] To: Alan.Coopersmith@Sun.COM Cc: PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-MD5: PKE2PoNa4rITdjLCt/NR3Q== X-Mailer: dtmail 1.3.0 @(#)CDE Version 1.5.5 SunOS 5.9 sun4u sparc Status: RO Content-Length: 473 >Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 10:41:02 -0700 >From: Alan Coopersmith > >Don Cragun wrote: >> This case proposes to introduce the new file /etc/ksh.kshrc to the >> system, as a per-system configuration file for interactive ksh93 (Korn >> Shell). > >Will this file be used by the existing ksh88-based shells in Solaris? >(/usr/bin/ksh, /usr/xpg4/bin/sh, and /usr/dt/bin/dtksh) >If so, will the proposed contents be compatible with them or affect them? From the original e-mail: Status: RO "Note that /etc/ksh.kshrc is only used in ksh93 initialization; it has no effect on /usr/bin/ksh nor on /usr/xpg4/bin/sh." It has no effect on /usr/dt/bin/dtksh either. For the record, dtksh is an early ksh93-based shell; not a ksh88-based shell. Note that April, Roland, and ksh93-integration-discuss@opensolaris.org are in the IAM file's Interest list so they all get copies of every message sent to this case even if they aren't on the To or Cc list. - Don From john.plocher@sun.com Tue Oct 17 13:30:38 2006 Received: from jurassic.eng.sun.com (jurassic.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.68.36]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k9HKUbg0011793 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 13:30:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [129.146.11.154] (sr1-umpk-02.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.154]) by jurassic.eng.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id k9HKUaTU888852; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 13:30:37 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <45353D6C.40902@sun.com> Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 13:30:36 -0700 From: John Plocher Reply-To: john.plocher@sun.com Organization: Systems Architecture Council - Tools and Process User-Agent: Mail/News 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060813) MIME-Version: 1.0 CC: Don Cragun , ksh93-integration-discussion@opensolaris.org, PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com Subject: Re: /etc/ksh.kshrc for ksh93 [PSARC/2006/587 Timeout: 10/24/2006] References: <200610171715.k9HHF708004950@spartan.SFBay.Sun.COM> <453515AE.5080208@sun.com> In-Reply-To: <453515AE.5080208@sun.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Content-Length: 936 Nit: With this proposal, we will have the following shell config files living in /etc: /etc/profile /etc/suid_profile /etc/.login /etc/ksh.kshrc /etc/default/su Where does the name "ksh.kshrc" come from? I'm worried that we don't seem to have or be following any naming pattern for these shell startup files. -John login(1) says: For Bourne shell and Korn shell logins, the shell executes /etc/profile and $HOME/.profile, if it exists. For C shell logins, the shell executes /etc/.login, $HOME/.cshrc, and $HOME/.login. The default /etc/profile and /etc/.login files check quotas (see quota(1M)), print /etc/motd, and check for mail. None of the messages are printed if the file $HOME/.hushlogin exists. The name of the command inter- preter is set to - (dash), followed by the last component of the interpreter's path name, for example, -sh. From April.Chin@eng.sun.com Tue Oct 17 14:09:23 2006 Received: from jurassic.eng.sun.com (jurassic.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.106.105]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k9HL9NXC012842 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 14:09:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aragon (aragon.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.226.123]) by jurassic.eng.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with SMTP id k9HL9MYY916674; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 14:09:22 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <200610172109.k9HL9MYY916674@jurassic.eng.sun.com> Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 14:09:06 -0700 (PDT) From: April Chin Reply-To: April Chin Subject: Re: /etc/ksh.kshrc for ksh93 [PSARC/2006/587 Timeout: 10/24/2006] To: john.plocher@sun.com Cc: don.cragun@sun.com, ksh93-integration-discussion@opensolaris.org, PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-MD5: A+8TvMW6F6zq+1fcm8xNOQ== X-Mailer: dtmail 1.3.0 @(#)CDE Version 1.7_31 SunOS 5.11 sun4u sparc Status: RO Content-Length: 1659 The file name comes from the ksh93 source at AT&T (upstream). April > Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 13:30:36 -0700 > From: John Plocher > Subject: Re: /etc/ksh.kshrc for ksh93 [PSARC/2006/587 Timeout: 10/24/2006] > Cc: Don Cragun , ksh93-integration-discussion@opensolaris.org, PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com > MIME-version: 1.0 > Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > x_sac_archived: PSARC/2006/587 > x_sac_loop: roland.mainz@nrubsig.org april.chin@sun.com ksh93-integration-discuss@opensolaris.org > x_sac_info: auto-forwarded by the SAC mail system > X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 > User-Agent: Mail/News 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060813) > > Nit: With this proposal, we will have the following shell config files > living in /etc: > > /etc/profile > /etc/suid_profile > /etc/.login > /etc/ksh.kshrc > /etc/default/su > > Where does the name "ksh.kshrc" come from? I'm worried that we don't > seem to have or be following any naming pattern for these shell startup > files. > > -John > > > login(1) says: > For Bourne shell and Korn shell logins, the shell executes > /etc/profile and $HOME/.profile, if it exists. For C shell > logins, the shell executes /etc/.login, $HOME/.cshrc, and > $HOME/.login. The default /etc/profile and /etc/.login files > check quotas (see quota(1M)), print /etc/motd, and check for > mail. None of the messages are printed if the file > $HOME/.hushlogin exists. The name of the command inter- > preter is set to - (dash), followed by the last component of > the interpreter's path name, for example, -sh. > From April.Chin@eng.sun.com Tue Oct 17 14:10:15 2006 Received: from jurassic.eng.sun.com (jurassic.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.106.105]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k9HLAFoU012905 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 14:10:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aragon (aragon.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.226.123]) by jurassic.eng.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with SMTP id k9HLAEtI917072; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 14:10:14 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <200610172110.k9HLAEtI917072@jurassic.eng.sun.com> Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 14:09:58 -0700 (PDT) From: April Chin Reply-To: April Chin Subject: Re: /etc/ksh.kshrc for ksh93 [PSARC/2006/587 Timeout: 10/24/2006] To: john.plocher@sun.com Cc: don.cragun@sun.com, ksh93-integration-discuss@opensolaris.org, PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-MD5: A+8TvMW6F6zq+1fcm8xNOQ== X-Mailer: dtmail 1.3.0 @(#)CDE Version 1.7_31 SunOS 5.11 sun4u sparc Status: RO Content-Length: 1659 The file name comes from the ksh93 source at AT&T (upstream). April > Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 13:30:36 -0700 > From: John Plocher > Subject: Re: /etc/ksh.kshrc for ksh93 [PSARC/2006/587 Timeout: 10/24/2006] > Cc: Don Cragun , ksh93-integration-discussion@opensolaris.org, PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com > MIME-version: 1.0 > Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > x_sac_archived: PSARC/2006/587 > x_sac_loop: roland.mainz@nrubsig.org april.chin@sun.com ksh93-integration-discuss@opensolaris.org > x_sac_info: auto-forwarded by the SAC mail system > X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 > User-Agent: Mail/News 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060813) > > Nit: With this proposal, we will have the following shell config files > living in /etc: > > /etc/profile > /etc/suid_profile > /etc/.login > /etc/ksh.kshrc > /etc/default/su > > Where does the name "ksh.kshrc" come from? I'm worried that we don't > seem to have or be following any naming pattern for these shell startup > files. > > -John > > > login(1) says: > For Bourne shell and Korn shell logins, the shell executes > /etc/profile and $HOME/.profile, if it exists. For C shell > logins, the shell executes /etc/.login, $HOME/.cshrc, and > $HOME/.login. The default /etc/profile and /etc/.login files > check quotas (see quota(1M)), print /etc/motd, and check for > mail. None of the messages are printed if the file > $HOME/.hushlogin exists. The name of the command inter- > preter is set to - (dash), followed by the last component of > the interpreter's path name, for example, -sh. > From alan.coopersmith@sun.com Tue Oct 17 14:58:32 2006 Received: from sfbaymail1sca.SFBay.Sun.COM (sfbaymail1sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.154.35]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k9HLwWj0014062 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 14:58:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [129.146.108.211] (almas.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.108.211]) by sfbaymail1sca.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id k9HLwVLH014226; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 14:58:31 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <45355207.8000103@sun.com> Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 14:58:31 -0700 From: Alan Coopersmith User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060731) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Don Cragun CC: PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com, ksh93-integration-discuss@opensolaris.org Subject: Re: /etc/ksh.kshrc for ksh93 [PSARC/2006/587 Timeout: 10/24/2006] References: <200610171753.k9HHrtDc005138@spartan.SFBay.Sun.COM> In-Reply-To: <200610171753.k9HHrtDc005138@spartan.SFBay.Sun.COM> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Content-Length: 838 Don Cragun wrote: > From the original e-mail: > "Note that /etc/ksh.kshrc is only used in ksh93 initialization; > it has no effect on /usr/bin/ksh nor on /usr/xpg4/bin/sh." Sorry - I swear I looked for that and must have somehow missed it. > Note that April, Roland, and ksh93-integration-discuss@opensolaris.org > are in the IAM file's Interest list so they all get copies of every > message sent to this case even if they aren't on the To or Cc list. Note that opensolaris.org lists in the interest list but not the cc list still get stuck in the manual moderation queues, causing time delays and extra work for Roland - only the opensolaris-arc list seems to have been set to allow the mails through automatically. -- -Alan Coopersmith- alan.coopersmith@sun.com Sun Microsystems, Inc. - X Window System Engineering From casper@holland.sun.com Tue Oct 17 15:01:20 2006 Received: from sunnl.holland.sun.com (sunnl.Holland.Sun.COM [129.159.201.1]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k9HM1GjR014169 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 15:01:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vaticaan.holland.sun.com (vaticaan [129.159.201.10]) by sunnl.holland.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id k9HM1Blh023372; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 00:01:11 +0200 (MEST) Received: from holland (casper@room101 [129.159.201.52]) by vaticaan.holland.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k9HM1BoT011799; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 00:01:11 +0200 (MEST) Message-Id: <200610172201.k9HM1BoT011799@vaticaan.holland.sun.com> From: Casper.Dik@sun.com To: John.Plocher@sun.com, Korn Shell 93 integration/migration project discussion cc: ksh93-integration-discussion@opensolaris.org, Don Cragun , PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com Subject: Re: [ksh93-integration-discuss] Re: /etc/ksh.kshrc for ksh93 [PSARC/2006/587 Timeout: 10/24/2006] In-Reply-To: <45353D6C.40902@sun.com> References: <200610171715.k9HHF708004950@spartan.SFBay.Sun.COM> <453515AE.5080208@sun.com> <45353D6C.40902@sun.com> Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 00:01:11 +0200 Sender: casper@holland.sun.com Status: RO Content-Length: 515 >Nit: With this proposal, we will have the following shell config files >living in /etc: > > /etc/profile > /etc/suid_profile > /etc/.login > /etc/ksh.kshrc > /etc/default/su And /etc/.cshrc (which seems to be particular to tcsh?) >Where does the name "ksh.kshrc" come from? I'm worried that we don't >seem to have or be following any naming pattern for these shell startup >files. Indeed; the /etc/.cshrc and /etc/.login files are clearly wrong; /etc/default/su isn't really read as a script file. Casper From roland.mainz@nrubsig.org Tue Oct 17 15:58:33 2006 Received: from sfbaymail1sca.SFBay.Sun.COM (sfbaymail1sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.154.35]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k9HMwXAe016000 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 15:58:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Sun.COM [192.18.98.36]) by sfbaymail1sca.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id k9HMwXOW015266 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 15:58:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay21.sun.com (relay21.sun.com [192.12.251.14] (may be forged)) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k9HMwW5r013944 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 16:58:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mms26es.sun.com ([150.143.232.114] [150.143.232.114]) by relay21.sun.com with ESMTP; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 22:58:32 Z Received: from relay24.sun.com (relay24.sun.com [192.12.251.74]) by mms26es.sun.com with ESMTP; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 22:58:32 Z Received: from jupiterb48.nrubsig.org ([84.58.214.78] [84.58.214.78]) by relay24.sun.com with ESMTP; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 22:58:31 Z Received: from nrubsig.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by jupiterb48.nrubsig.org (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id k9HMwKiP011708; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 00:58:20 +0200 (CEST) Sender: gisburn@jupiterb48.nrubsig.org Message-Id: <4535600B.7CAFECF5@nrubsig.org> Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 00:58:19 +0200 From: Roland Mainz X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.11 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: john.plocher@sun.com, Korn Shell 93 integration/migration project discussion CC: Don Cragun , PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com Subject: Re: [ksh93-integration-discuss] Re: /etc/ksh.kshrc for ksh93[PSARC/2006/587 Timeout: 10/24/2006] References: <200610171715.k9HHF708004950@spartan.SFBay.Sun.COM> <453515AE.5080208@sun.com> <45353D6C.40902@sun.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Content-Length: 693 John Plocher wrote: > > Nit: With this proposal, we will have the following shell config files > living in /etc: > > /etc/profile > /etc/suid_profile > /etc/.login > /etc/ksh.kshrc > /etc/default/su > > Where does the name "ksh.kshrc" come from? I'm worried that we don't > seem to have or be following any naming pattern for these shell startup > files. /etc/ksh.kshrc comes from AT&T and the naming scheme was adopted by other shells, too - for example bash has /etc/bash.bashrc for the same purpose and we may (not this case, not this case, not...) want to add something like /etc/sh.shrc and ~/.shrc to the POSIX shell standard in the future. From a viewpoint as an adminstator the "/etc/ksh.kshrc"&co. files are Status: RO VERY usefull since it avoids the problem to update a few zillion ~/.kshrc files in user accounts (which is a nightmare for the current Solaris /usr/bin/ksh - it neither sets a default editor mode (which is one of the primary reasons why many beginners prefer "bash") nor is there a proper way to set one globally). ---- Bye, Roland -- __ . . __ (o.\ \/ /.o) roland.mainz@nrubsig.org \__\/\/__/ MPEG specialist, C&&JAVA&&Sun&&Unix programmer /O /==\ O\ TEL +49 641 7950090 (;O/ \/ \O;) From roland.mainz@nrubsig.org Tue Oct 17 16:05:30 2006 Received: from sfbaymail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sfbaymail2sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.42]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k9HN5Tki016144 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 16:05:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Sun.COM [192.18.98.36]) by sfbaymail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.10/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id k9HN5TOS023884 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 16:05:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay2.sun.com (relay2.sun.com [150.143.103.24] (may be forged)) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k9HN36KB016816 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 17:05:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mms07es.sun.com ([150.143.104.134] [150.143.104.134]) by relay2.sun.com with ESMTP; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 23:05:28 Z Received: from relay1.sun.com (relay1.sun.com [150.143.103.14]) by mms07es.sun.com with ESMTP; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 23:05:28 Z Received: from jupiterb48.nrubsig.org ([84.58.214.78] [84.58.214.78]) by relay1.sun.com with ESMTP; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 23:05:27 Z Received: from nrubsig.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by jupiterb48.nrubsig.org (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id k9HN5L7m011711; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 01:05:22 +0200 (CEST) Sender: gisburn@jupiterb48.nrubsig.org Message-Id: <453561B1.180A5F87@nrubsig.org> Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 01:05:21 +0200 From: Roland Mainz X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.11 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Korn Shell 93 integration/migration project discussion CC: Don Cragun , PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com Subject: Re: [ksh93-integration-discuss] Re: /etc/ksh.kshrc for ksh93[PSARC/2006/587 Timeout: 10/24/2006] References: <200610171715.k9HHF708004950@spartan.SFBay.Sun.COM> <453515AE.5080208@sun.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Content-Length: 1253 Alan Coopersmith wrote: > Don Cragun wrote: > > This case proposes to introduce the new file /etc/ksh.kshrc to the > > system, as a per-system configuration file for interactive ksh93 (Korn > > Shell). > > Will this file be used by the existing ksh88-based shells in Solaris? > (/usr/bin/ksh, /usr/xpg4/bin/sh, and /usr/dt/bin/dtksh) > If so, will the proposed contents be compatible with them or affect them? The old Solaris /usr/bin/ksh and it's /usr/xpg4/bin/sh derivate do not recognize /etc/ksh.kshrc (unfortunately - this issue cases some pain for adminstrators). dtksh does not recognize it either but only because the Sun version is based on an ancient ksh93d-_alpha base. If we would update the Solaris version to use the new ksh93 basis then it would recognize /etc/ksh.kshrc - but this would be no problem for existing dtksh scripts because /etc/ksh.kshrc and ~/.kshrc are only read for interactive shells (and I doubt that any dtksh users would complain about having a default editor mode turned-on by default for an interactive dtksh session... :-) ). ---- Bye, Roland -- __ . . __ (o.\ \/ /.o) roland.mainz@nrubsig.org \__\/\/__/ MPEG specialist, C&&JAVA&&Sun&&Unix programmer /O /==\ O\ TEL +49 641 7950090 (;O/ \/ \O;) From Joseph.Kowalski@eng.sun.com Tue Oct 17 16:18:59 2006 Received: from jurassic.eng.sun.com (jurassic.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.104.45]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k9HNIxVh016312 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 16:18:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hawaiian-sun (vpn-129-150-12-95.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.12.95]) by jurassic.eng.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with SMTP id k9HNIpuG977925; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 16:18:58 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <200610172318.k9HNIpuG977925@jurassic.eng.sun.com> Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 13:18:54 -1000 (HST) From: Joseph Kowalski Reply-To: Joseph Kowalski Subject: Re: /etc/ksh.kshrc for ksh93 [PSARC/2006/587 Timeout: 10/24/2006] To: PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com, don.cragun@sun.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-MD5: GZLYVKvmIY9yVFyVqlYatA== X-Mailer: dtmail 1.3.0 @(#)CDE Version 1.7_20 SunOS 5.11 i86pc i386 Status: RO Content-Length: 1114 > gmacs is considered an intuitive beginner's editing mode. It is the > default editing mode in bash and more or less matches the common input > mode of various GUI toolkits and desktops, including Gnome/GTK+, > KDE/Qt, CDE/Motif, Mozilla/XULRunner/Gecko, JAVA, and Xaw/Xaw3D. None the less, this seems like a strange choice for Solaris as there isn't anything called "gmacs" on the system. Uh, what "default editing mode" are you sighting for JAVA? I think I would be more inclinded to be accepting of gmacs if it was the common default mode for ksh on other systems. Is it? > Interfaces: > > Interface Stability Description > ========= ========= =========== > /etc/ksh.kshrc Uncommitted Per-system configuration file for > interactive ksh93 sessions This seems a little strange to me. Would Committed for the file itself and format be more appropriate, with the default default of gmacs (or whatever) being Uncommitted? I think reality is that once you ship such a file, we are not likely to be able to change its existance or format - too many administrators will latch on to it. - jek3 From Joseph.Kowalski@eng.sun.com Tue Oct 17 16:41:54 2006 Received: from jurassic.eng.sun.com (jurassic.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.226.130]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k9HNfs25016738 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 16:41:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hawaiian-sun (vpn-129-150-12-95.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.12.95]) by jurassic.eng.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with SMTP id k9HNfmkL984256; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 16:41:53 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <200610172341.k9HNfmkL984256@jurassic.eng.sun.com> Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 13:41:49 -1000 (HST) From: Joseph Kowalski Reply-To: Joseph Kowalski Subject: Re: /etc/ksh.kshrc for ksh93 [PSARC/2006/587 Timeout: 10/24/2006] To: PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com, don.cragun@sun.com, Joseph.Kowalski@eng.sun.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-MD5: rRMvFy5W4UF9vdRIhnXIEw== X-Mailer: dtmail 1.3.0 @(#)CDE Version 1.7_20 SunOS 5.11 i86pc i386 Status: RO Content-Length: 863 > From: Joseph Kowalski ... > > gmacs is considered an intuitive beginner's editing mode. It is the > > default editing mode in bash and more or less matches the common input > > mode of various GUI toolkits and desktops, including Gnome/GTK+, > > KDE/Qt, CDE/Motif, Mozilla/XULRunner/Gecko, JAVA, and Xaw/Xaw3D. > > None the less, this seems like a strange choice for Solaris as there isn't > anything called "gmacs" on the system. ... > I think I would be more inclinded to be accepting of gmacs if it was the > common default mode for ksh on other systems. Is it? Or alternately, why isn't the best choice to either not ship the file or (probably better) to ship it empty? I fully understand the motivation to allow an easily modifiable system wide default, but why should we empose a style judgement on everybody? - jek3 From roland.mainz@nrubsig.org Tue Oct 17 16:42:29 2006 Received: from sfbaymail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sfbaymail2sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.42]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k9HNgTCq016797 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 16:42:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Sun.COM [192.18.98.34]) by sfbaymail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.10/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id k9HNgTt4009236 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 16:42:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay24.sun.com (ip192-12-251-74.block6.us.syntegra.com [192.12.251.74]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k9HNgSqL023741 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 17:42:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mms24es.sun.com ([150.143.232.74] [150.143.232.74]) by relay24.sun.com with ESMTP; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 23:42:28 Z Received: from mms23bas.mms.us.syntegra.com (mms23bas.mms.us.syntegra.com [192.12.251.50]) by mms24es.sun.com with ESMTP; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 23:42:28 Z Received: from jupiterb48.nrubsig.org ([84.58.214.78] [84.58.214.78]) by relay23.sun.com with ESMTP; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 23:42:27 Z Received: from nrubsig.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by jupiterb48.nrubsig.org (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id k9HNg4n0011722; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 01:42:04 +0200 (CEST) Sender: gisburn@jupiterb48.nrubsig.org Message-Id: <45356A4C.6C20D40F@nrubsig.org> Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 01:42:04 +0200 From: Roland Mainz X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.11 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Joseph Kowalski CC: PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com, don.cragun@sun.com, ksh93-integration-discuss Subject: Re: /etc/ksh.kshrc for ksh93 [PSARC/2006/587 Timeout: 10/24/2006] References: <200610172318.k9HNIpuG977925@jurassic.eng.sun.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Content-Length: 2895 Joseph Kowalski wrote: > > > gmacs is considered an intuitive beginner's editing mode. It is the > > default editing mode in bash and more or less matches the common input > > mode of various GUI toolkits and desktops, including Gnome/GTK+, > > KDE/Qt, CDE/Motif, Mozilla/XULRunner/Gecko, JAVA, and Xaw/Xaw3D. > > None the less, this seems like a strange choice for Solaris as there isn't > anything called "gmacs" on the system. Solaris ships no "emacs" either... :-) There are three choices: "vi", "emacs" and "gmacs". IMO "vi" is not an option (unless you want to punish beginners to learn "vi" before they can use something in the shell... =:-) ), leaving only "emacs" and "gmacs" as options (unless you want to drive more users into "bash"'s direction...). In ksh93 the "emacs" and "gmacs" modes are almost identical except one item: CTRL-T transposes two characters in "gmacs" mode while the "emacs" mode transposes one. BUt people who actually use CTRL-T are rare to find... at least I had to look into David Korn's "The New Kornshell" book to find this difference. > Uh, what "default editing mode" are you sighting for JAVA? Fetch any JAVA application which provides an input/editor widget. Most of the simple emacs/gmacs commands work in those widgets. > I think I would be more inclinded to be accepting of gmacs if it was the > common default mode for ksh on other systems. Is it? Linux distributions who ship ksh93 (such as SuSE) provide a /etc/ksh.kshrc files which sets it. The only difference is that they simply set the mode, overriding anything else and they don't care if there was anything else set yet. "gmacs" was picked per suggestion of community members - we could use "emacs" instead but the difference is almost zero (see above for the only difference). > > Interfaces: > > > > Interface Stability Description > > ========= ========= =========== > > /etc/ksh.kshrc Uncommitted Per-system configuration file for > > interactive ksh93 sessions > > This seems a little strange to me. Would Committed for the file itself > and format Uhm... there is no "fixed" format - /etc/ksh.kshrc is a shell script (fragment) which gets sourced before ~/.kshrc ... > be more appropriate, with the default default of gmacs (or > whatever) being Uncommitted? I think reality is that once you ship such > a file, we are not likely to be able to change its existance or format - > too many administrators will latch on to it. ... what is your concern here ? IMO you really don't want to remove /etc/ksh.kshrc later (unless you want to punish admins) and the format doesn't change either - it's a ksh shell script fragment. ---- Bye, Roland -- __ . . __ (o.\ \/ /.o) roland.mainz@nrubsig.org \__\/\/__/ MPEG specialist, C&&JAVA&&Sun&&Unix programmer /O /==\ O\ TEL +49 641 7950090 (;O/ \/ \O;) From roland.mainz@nrubsig.org Tue Oct 17 16:53:03 2006 Received: from sfbaymail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sfbaymail2sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.42]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k9HNr380017060 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 16:53:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-4.sun.com (nwkea-mail-4.Sun.COM [192.18.42.26]) by sfbaymail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.10/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id k9HNr3xM013241 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 16:53:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay12.sun.com (relay12.sun.com [217.140.40.34] (may be forged)) by nwkea-mail-4.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k9HNr2Qg001561 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 16:53:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mms12es.sun.com ([160.41.223.34] [160.41.223.34]) by relay12.sun.com with ESMTP; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 23:53:01 Z Received: from relay12.sun.com (relay12.sun.com [217.140.40.34]) by mms12es.sun.com with ESMTP; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 23:53:01 Z Received: from jupiterb48.nrubsig.org ([84.58.214.78] [84.58.214.78]) by relay12.sun.com with ESMTP; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 23:53:01 Z Received: from nrubsig.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by jupiterb48.nrubsig.org (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id k9HNooFT011726; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 01:50:51 +0200 (CEST) Sender: gisburn@jupiterb48.nrubsig.org Message-Id: <45356C5A.F59BB35F@nrubsig.org> Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 01:50:50 +0200 From: Roland Mainz X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.11 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Joseph Kowalski , Korn Shell 93 integration/migration project discussion CC: PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com, don.cragun@sun.com Subject: Re: [ksh93-integration-discuss] Re: /etc/ksh.kshrc for ksh93[PSARC/2006/587 Timeout: 10/24/2006] References: <200610172341.k9HNfmkL984256@jurassic.eng.sun.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Content-Length: 2060 Joseph Kowalski wrote: > > > From: Joseph Kowalski > .. > > > gmacs is considered an intuitive beginner's editing mode. It is the > > > default editing mode in bash and more or less matches the common input > > > mode of various GUI toolkits and desktops, including Gnome/GTK+, > > > KDE/Qt, CDE/Motif, Mozilla/XULRunner/Gecko, JAVA, and Xaw/Xaw3D. > > > > None the less, this seems like a strange choice for Solaris as there isn't > > anything called "gmacs" on the system. > .. > > I think I would be more inclinded to be accepting of gmacs if it was the > > common default mode for ksh on other systems. Is it? > > Or alternately, why isn't the best choice to either not ship the file > or (probably better) to ship it empty? I fully understand the motivation > to allow an easily modifiable system wide default, but why should we > empose a style judgement on everybody? Umpf... because the ksh93 "default" is that no editor mode is enabled, leaving beginners completely puzzled how to proceed. The whole addition of /etc/ksh.kshrc is about improving _USUABILITY_. Please ask yourself: Why prefer people "bash" ? The answer is: Because it is a shell which is very easy to use. It has "working cursor keys" and is quite intuitive to use. I really like to do the same for ksh93 to improve the usuability of Solaris - the old Solaris ksh is really hated by both admins and users for not having "working cursor keys"&&history. We can't use "bash"'s solution of doing this via a builtin setting because this would violate the POSIX standard (which requires that all "set -o flags" are off by default (excluding any settings made after the shell started and reads it's startup files (like /etc/profile, /etc/ksh.kshrc, ~/.kshrc etc.))) - instead we use the file which was originally invented to handle this kind of settings: /etc/ksh.kshrc ---- Bye, Roland -- __ . . __ (o.\ \/ /.o) roland.mainz@nrubsig.org \__\/\/__/ MPEG specialist, C&&JAVA&&Sun&&Unix programmer /O /==\ O\ TEL +49 641 7950090 (;O/ \/ \O;) From Ed.Gould@Sun.COM Tue Oct 17 17:02:46 2006 Received: from sfbaymail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sfbaymail2sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.42]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k9I02k2I017484 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 17:02:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-ea-fw-1.sun.com (nwkes-gis-mail-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [10.4.134.6]) by sfbaymail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.10/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id k9I02kwv017313 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 17:02:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d1-sfbay-10.sun.com ([192.18.39.120]) by nwk-ea-fw-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k9I02fSt006520 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 17:02:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-sfbay-10.sun.com by d1-sfbay-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0J7B003011D0L900@d1-sfbay-10.sun.com> (original mail from Ed.Gould@Sun.COM) for PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 17:02:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [129.146.106.203] by d1-sfbay-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0J7B00CZF1GGOHZF@d1-sfbay-10.sun.com>; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 17:02:41 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 17:02:45 -0700 From: Ed Gould Subject: Re: /etc/ksh.kshrc for ksh93 [PSARC/2006/587 Timeout: 10/24/2006] In-reply-to: <45356A4C.6C20D40F@nrubsig.org> Sender: Ed.Gould@Sun.COM To: Roland Mainz Cc: Joseph Kowalski , PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com, don.cragun@Sun.COM, ksh93-integration-discuss Message-id: <45356F25.2060004@sun.com> Organization: Sun Cluster Engineering - GDD MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Boundary_(ID_5iVpRHfkX5cNDeoinN/Nww)" References: <200610172318.k9HNIpuG977925@jurassic.eng.sun.com> <45356A4C.6C20D40F@nrubsig.org> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (X11/20060113) Status: RO Content-Length: 1855 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_5iVpRHfkX5cNDeoinN/Nww) Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Roland Mainz wrote: > Joseph Kowalski wrote: >> ... Committed be more appropriate, with the default default of gmacs (or >> whatever) being Uncommitted? I think reality is that once you ship such >> a file, we are not likely to be able to change its existance or format - >> too many administrators will latch on to it. > > ... what is your concern here ? IMO you really don't want to remove > /etc/ksh.kshrc later (unless you want to punish admins) and the format > doesn't change either - it's a ksh shell script fragment. What I think Joe is trying to get at is that the file name (and its existence) should be Committed, since changing the name or removing it entirely are not things we want to make easy. (The difference between Committed and Uncommitted is when incompatible changes are allowed. For Committed, it's at a Major release. It is unlikely in the extreme that a Major release of Solaris will ever happen again.) The contents of the file may be Uncommitted, hence changeable in a Minor release. I agree with Roland that having a default edit mode enabled is a good thing; I have no problem with it being either emacs or gmacs. -- --Ed --Boundary_(ID_5iVpRHfkX5cNDeoinN/Nww) Content-type: text/x-vcard; name=ed.gould.vcf; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: attachment; filename=ed.gould.vcf begin:vcard fn:Ed Gould n:Gould;Ed org:Sun Microsystems, Inc.;Sun Cluster adr;dom:M/S UMPK17-201;;17 Network Circle;Menlo Park;CA;94025 email;internet:ed.gould@sun.com title:File System Architect, PSARC Chair tel;work:+1.650.786.4937 x-mozilla-html:FALSE version:2.1 end:vcard --Boundary_(ID_5iVpRHfkX5cNDeoinN/Nww)-- From Joseph.Kowalski@eng.sun.com Tue Oct 17 17:10:14 2006 Received: from jurassic.eng.sun.com (jurassic.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.106.31]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k9I0AE2l017588 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 17:10:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hawaiian-sun (vpn-129-150-12-95.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.12.95]) by jurassic.eng.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with SMTP id k9I0A37i995532; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 17:10:08 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <200610180010.k9I0A37i995532@jurassic.eng.sun.com> Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 14:10:04 -1000 (HST) From: Joseph Kowalski Reply-To: Joseph Kowalski Subject: Re: /etc/ksh.kshrc for ksh93 [PSARC/2006/587 Timeout: 10/24/2006] To: Joseph.Kowalski@eng.sun.com, roland.mainz@nrubsig.org Cc: PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com, don.cragun@sun.com, ksh93-integration-discuss@opensolaris.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-MD5: tuRac6NtG7aVvItLl8r45A== X-Mailer: dtmail 1.3.0 @(#)CDE Version 1.7_20 SunOS 5.11 i86pc i386 Status: RO Content-Length: 2722 > From: Roland Mainz ... > Joseph Kowalski wrote: > > > > > gmacs is considered an intuitive beginner's editing mode. It is the > > > default editing mode in bash and more or less matches the common input > > > mode of various GUI toolkits and desktops, including Gnome/GTK+, > > > KDE/Qt, CDE/Motif, Mozilla/XULRunner/Gecko, JAVA, and Xaw/Xaw3D. > > > > None the less, this seems like a strange choice for Solaris as there isn't > > anything called "gmacs" on the system. > > Solaris ships no "emacs" either... :-) > > There are three choices: "vi", "emacs" and "gmacs". IMO "vi" is not an > option (unless you want to punish beginners to learn "vi" before they > can use something in the shell... =:-) ), leaving only "emacs" and > "gmacs" as options (unless you want to drive more users into "bash"'s > direction...). You failed to list one choice: "none". As per my next mail, I think this is the best choice. I don't like pushing stylistic choices as defaults. Was this possibility considered in the community discussions? > > I think I would be more inclinded to be accepting of gmacs if it was the > > common default mode for ksh on other systems. Is it? > > Linux distributions who ship ksh93 (such as SuSE) provide a > /etc/ksh.kshrc files which sets it. The only difference is that they > simply set the mode, overriding anything else and they don't care if > there was anything else set yet. This means "sets it to gmacs", right? Well, if I can't have TICO mode, I guess SuSE shipping gmacs mode is sufficent justification to me. I wasn't so much arguing with gmacs as looking for a better justification. Looking toward my next mail, I think I really favor shipping it empty. BTW: I use "vi" mode. Be careful what you say... 8^) > Uhm... there is no "fixed" format - /etc/ksh.kshrc is a shell script > (fragment) which gets sourced before ~/.kshrc ... Which is a very well defined, Committed format. > > be more appropriate, with the default default of gmacs (or > > whatever) being Uncommitted? I think reality is that once you ship such > > a file, we are not likely to be able to change its existance or format - > > too many administrators will latch on to it. > > ... what is your concern here ? IMO you really don't want to remove > /etc/ksh.kshrc later (unless you want to punish admins) and the format > doesn't change either - it's a ksh shell script fragment. You are reading me backward (I think). My concern is that you will never change the format or the name of this file. Hence they should be Committed. The contents of the primortial file we are proposing to ship may change uncompatably in a Minor release, hence Uncommitted. - jek3 From kupfer@athyra.sfbay.sun.com Tue Oct 17 17:10:53 2006 Received: from athyra.sfbay.sun.com (athyra.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.228.66]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k9I0ArPm017609 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 17:10:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from athyra (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by athyra.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id k9I0AlEM017521; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 17:10:47 -0700 (PDT) From: Mike Kupfer To: Korn Shell 93 integration/migration project discussion cc: Roland Mainz , Joseph Kowalski , don.cragun@sun.com, PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com Subject: Re: [ksh93-integration-discuss] Re: /etc/ksh.kshrc for ksh93 [PSARC/2006/587 Timeout: 10/24/2006] In-Reply-To: Message from Ed Gould of "Tue, 17 Oct 2006 17:02:45 PDT." <45356F25.2060004@sun.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 7.94; nmh 1.0.4; XEmacs 21.4 (patch 18) Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 17:10:47 -0700 Message-ID: <17520.1161130247@athyra> Sender: kupfer@athyra.sfbay.sun.com Status: RO Content-Length: 381 >>>>> "Ed" == Ed Gould writes: Ed> What I think Joe is trying to get at is that the file name (and its Ed> existence) should be Committed, since changing the name or removing Ed> it entirely are not things we want to make easy. Yeah, the comments were unclear in the submission. The *contents* are Uncommitted; the pathname is, uh, Standard, I guess. mike From April.Chin@eng.sun.com Tue Oct 17 17:11:34 2006 Received: from jurassic.eng.sun.com (jurassic.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.56.144]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k9I0BYEQ017633 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 17:11:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aragon (aragon.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.226.123]) by jurassic.eng.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with SMTP id k9I0BYj6995885; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 17:11:34 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <200610180011.k9I0BYj6995885@jurassic.eng.sun.com> Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 17:11:18 -0700 (PDT) From: April Chin Reply-To: April Chin Subject: Re: [ksh93-integration-discuss] Re: /etc/ksh.kshrc for ksh93 [PSARC/2006/587 Timeout: 10/24/2006] To: PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com, don.cragun@sun.com, Joseph.Kowalski@eng.sun.com, ksh93-integration-discuss@opensolaris.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-MD5: wPMY1NnOQD1UXjtYHOAOUg== X-Mailer: dtmail 1.3.0 @(#)CDE Version 1.7_31 SunOS 5.11 sun4u sparc Status: RO Content-Length: 1027 > X-Original-To: ksh93-integration-discuss@opensolaris.org > Delivered-To: ksh93-integration-discuss@opensolaris.org > Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 13:18:54 -1000 (HST) > From: Joseph Kowalski > > Interfaces: > > > > Interface Stability Description > > ========= ========= =========== > > /etc/ksh.kshrc Uncommitted Per-system configuration file for > > interactive ksh93 sessions > > This seems a little strange to me. Would Committed for the file itself > and format be more appropriate, with the default default of gmacs (or > whatever) being Uncommitted? I think reality is that once you ship such > a file, we are not likely to be able to change its existance or format - > too many administrators will latch on to it. > I'm okay with the file itself being Committed. The contents have some planned future additions, but the default gmacs setting itself is unlikely to change--I'm fine making the gmacs setting Uncommitted, as a hedge against a possible change, though. April From Ed.Gould@Sun.COM Tue Oct 17 17:22:12 2006 Received: from sfbaymail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sfbaymail2sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.42]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k9I0MBKM017753 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 17:22:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-ea-fw-1.sun.com (nwkes-gis-mail-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [10.4.134.5]) by sfbaymail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.10/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id k9I0MBIs026557 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 17:22:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d1-sfbay-09.sun.com ([192.18.39.119]) by nwk-ea-fw-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k9I0M6Wk012589 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 17:22:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-sfbay-09.sun.com by d1-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0J7B00I012CPB600@d1-sfbay-09.sun.com> (original mail from Ed.Gould@Sun.COM) for PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 17:22:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [129.146.106.203] by d1-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0J7B00JRK2CSLJSE@d1-sfbay-09.sun.com>; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 17:22:04 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 17:22:09 -0700 From: Ed Gould Subject: Re: [ksh93-integration-discuss] Re: /etc/ksh.kshrc for ksh93 [PSARC/2006/587 Timeout: 10/24/2006] In-reply-to: <17520.1161130247@athyra> Sender: Ed.Gould@Sun.COM To: Mike Kupfer Cc: Korn Shell 93 integration/migration project discussion , Roland Mainz , Joseph Kowalski , don.cragun@Sun.COM, PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com Message-id: <453573B1.2010103@sun.com> Organization: Sun Cluster Engineering - GDD MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Boundary_(ID_fjzmPMuKvhBUzh/w0rzmYA)" References: <17520.1161130247@athyra> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (X11/20060113) Status: RO Content-Length: 1182 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_fjzmPMuKvhBUzh/w0rzmYA) Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Mike Kupfer wrote: > Yeah, the comments were unclear in the submission. The *contents* are > Uncommitted; the pathname is, uh, Standard, I guess. Standard is no longer in the taxonomy; it mapped into Committed, with a reference to the defining standard. So Committed would the the classification for the pathname, perhaps with a reference to the origin of the name, that being the upstream source code from AT&T. That's not formally a standard, but it doesn't matter any more. -- --Ed --Boundary_(ID_fjzmPMuKvhBUzh/w0rzmYA) Content-type: text/x-vcard; name=ed.gould.vcf; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: attachment; filename=ed.gould.vcf begin:vcard fn:Ed Gould n:Gould;Ed org:Sun Microsystems, Inc.;Sun Cluster adr;dom:M/S UMPK17-201;;17 Network Circle;Menlo Park;CA;94025 email;internet:ed.gould@sun.com title:File System Architect, PSARC Chair tel;work:+1.650.786.4937 x-mozilla-html:FALSE version:2.1 end:vcard --Boundary_(ID_fjzmPMuKvhBUzh/w0rzmYA)-- From Joseph.Kowalski@eng.sun.com Tue Oct 17 17:24:15 2006 Received: from jurassic.eng.sun.com (jurassic.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.224.130]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k9I0OED3017781 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 17:24:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hawaiian-sun (vpn-129-150-12-95.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.12.95]) by jurassic.eng.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with SMTP id k9I0O4IL999430; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 17:24:09 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <200610180024.k9I0O4IL999430@jurassic.eng.sun.com> Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 14:24:05 -1000 (HST) From: Joseph Kowalski Reply-To: Joseph Kowalski Subject: Re: [ksh93-integration-discuss] Re: /etc/ksh.kshrc for ksh93[PSARC/2006/587 Timeout: 10/24/2006] To: Joseph.Kowalski@eng.sun.com, ksh93-integration-discuss@opensolaris.org, roland.mainz@nrubsig.org Cc: PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com, don.cragun@sun.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-MD5: 3NujhIK6qlNAsP/c4P8zIw== X-Mailer: dtmail 1.3.0 @(#)CDE Version 1.7_20 SunOS 5.11 i86pc i386 Status: RO Content-Length: 2193 > From: Roland Mainz ... > Umpf... because the ksh93 "default" is that no editor mode is enabled, > leaving beginners completely puzzled how to proceed. So, insted we send these beginners off believing that gmacs is the way it is. I don't think this is better. > The whole addition of /etc/ksh.kshrc is about improving _USUABILITY_. And, for me, usability is "vi" mode. I thought from the proposal, this was all about "ease of administation". Upon re-reading it, I see it does talk about ease of use, but frankly, I don't buy it. You offend those who don't want "gmacs" mode by making a stylistic choice. > Please ask yourself: Why prefer people "bash" ? The answer is: Because > it is a shell which is very easy to use. It has "working cursor keys" > and is quite intuitive to use. I really like to do the same for ksh93 to > improve the usuability of Solaris - the old Solaris ksh is really hated > by both admins and users for not having "working cursor keys"&&history. > We can't use "bash"'s solution of doing this via a builtin setting > because this would violate the POSIX standard (which requires that all > "set -o flags" are off by default (excluding any settings made after the > shell started and reads it's startup files (like /etc/profile, > /etc/ksh.kshrc, ~/.kshrc etc.))) - instead we use the file which was > originally invented to handle this kind of settings: /etc/ksh.kshrc I don't buy your assertions. I don't prefer bash. Many people don't. Even if I did prefer bash, it wouldn't be because of "working cursor keys". I have no-clue why bash seems to be preferred on Linux systems over a bunch of shells (such as zsh), but I think it lies more with early licenses and Open Source religion than with any technical or usability attributes. By your logic, I could assume that DOS is the end-all Operating System, rather than just happening to be in the right place at the right time (and having its competitors make awful business decisions). Look, I'm not going to lie down on the tracks over this. Do any other PSARC members feel uncomfortable over shipping a stylistic choice? If not, I'll just go away and sulk. 8^) - jek3 From Joseph.Kowalski@eng.sun.com Tue Oct 17 17:26:07 2006 Received: from jurassic.eng.sun.com (jurassic.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.224.31]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k9I0Q6bQ017806 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 17:26:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hawaiian-sun (vpn-129-150-12-95.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.12.95]) by jurassic.eng.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with SMTP id k9I0Q0HU100223; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 17:26:05 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <200610180026.k9I0Q0HU100223@jurassic.eng.sun.com> Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 14:26:01 -1000 (HST) From: Joseph Kowalski Reply-To: Joseph Kowalski Subject: Re: [ksh93-integration-discuss] Re: /etc/ksh.kshrc for ksh93 [PSARC/2006/587 Timeout: 10/24/2006] To: ksh93-integration-discuss@opensolaris.org, mike.kupfer@sun.com Cc: roland.mainz@nrubsig.org, Joseph.Kowalski@eng.sun.com, don.cragun@sun.com, PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-MD5: wrwhUPu9aabqOInQcEcYiA== X-Mailer: dtmail 1.3.0 @(#)CDE Version 1.7_20 SunOS 5.11 i86pc i386 Status: RO Content-Length: 445 > From: Mike Kupfer ... > Ed> What I think Joe is trying to get at is that the file name (and its > Ed> existence) should be Committed, since changing the name or removing > Ed> it entirely are not things we want to make easy. > > Yeah, the comments were unclear in the submission. The *contents* are > Uncommitted; the pathname is, uh, Standard, I guess. Standard doesn't exist anymore. It just Committed. - jek3 From richlowe@richlowe.net Tue Oct 17 17:27:33 2006 Received: from sfbaymail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sfbaymail2sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.42]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k9I0RXZh017907 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 17:27:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Sun.COM [192.18.98.36]) by sfbaymail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.10/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id k9I0RWbb029260 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 17:27:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay12.sun.com (relay12.sun.com [217.140.40.34] (may be forged)) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k9I0RVYN010770 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 18:27:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mms11es.sun.com ([160.41.223.14] [160.41.223.14]) by relay12.sun.com with ESMTP for PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 00:27:31 Z Received: from relay13.sun.com (relay13.sun.com [217.140.40.54]) by mms11es.sun.com with ESMTP for PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 00:27:30 Z Received: from rwcrmhc14.comcast.net ([216.148.227.154] [216.148.227.154]) by relay13.sun.com with ESMTP for PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 00:27:30 Z Received: from [192.168.1.2] (c-71-203-214-110.hsd1.tn.comcast.net[71.203.214.110]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc14) with ESMTP id <20061018002723m14003u0kke>; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 00:27:28 +0000 Message-Id: <4535719E.200@richlowe.net> Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 20:13:18 -0400 From: Richard Lowe User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060911) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Joseph Kowalski CC: PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com, don.cragun@sun.com Subject: Re: /etc/ksh.kshrc for ksh93 [PSARC/2006/587 Timeout: 10/24/2006] References: <200610172318.k9HNIpuG977925@jurassic.eng.sun.com> In-Reply-To: <200610172318.k9HNIpuG977925@jurassic.eng.sun.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Content-Length: 1571 Joseph Kowalski wrote: >> gmacs is considered an intuitive beginner's editing mode. It is the >> default editing mode in bash and more or less matches the common input >> mode of various GUI toolkits and desktops, including Gnome/GTK+, >> KDE/Qt, CDE/Motif, Mozilla/XULRunner/Gecko, JAVA, and Xaw/Xaw3D. Gnome/GTK default to win32-style C-v, C-x, C-c these days, where C-a is "select all", not the almost-emacs readline-like editing keys. Mozilla and friends, as far as I know use whatever the toolkit they are making use of use (under Solaris, at least, they follow the GNOME/GTK setting). > None the less, this seems like a strange choice for Solaris as there isn't > anything called "gmacs" on the system. > > Uh, what "default editing mode" are you sighting for JAVA? I think this entire list references the editing keys used in text-input widgets. > I think I would be more inclinded to be accepting of gmacs if it was the > common default mode for ksh on other systems. Is it? > /usr/bin/ksh on Solaris defaults to vi editing, as do the ksh-based standards shells. ksh93 on Linux (ubuntu, in this case) defaults to vi-like editing. pdksh (a free ksh88 clone) on Linux (again, ubuntu) defaults to vi-like editing. ksh93 on MacOS X (10.4) appears to default to no line editing. ksh88 on IRIX 6.5 appears to default to no line editing. pdksh under CentOS 3.8 appears to default to no line editing. The last three there are somewhat surprising to me, however, so may have more to do with the specific systems I was able to try this on. -- Rich From dp@snowdog.eng.sun.com Tue Oct 17 18:15:01 2006 Received: from snowdog.eng.sun.com (snowdog.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.228.213]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k9I1F1pB020209 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 18:15:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from snowdog.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by snowdog.eng.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7) with ESMTP id k9I1EtIr014719; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 18:14:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from dp@localhost) by snowdog.eng.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/Submit) id k9I1EscW014718; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 18:14:54 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 18:14:54 -0700 From: Dan Price To: Joseph Kowalski , Korn Shell 93 integration/migration project discussion Cc: roland.mainz@nrubsig.org, don.cragun@sun.com, PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com Subject: Re: [ksh93-integration-discuss] Re: /etc/ksh.kshrc for ksh93[PSARC/2006/587 Timeout: 10/24/2006] Message-ID: <20061018011454.GL13191@eng.sun.com> References: <200610180024.k9I0O4IL999430@jurassic.eng.sun.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200610180024.k9I0O4IL999430@jurassic.eng.sun.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i Status: RO Content-Length: 1342 On Tue 17 Oct 2006 at 02:24PM, Joseph Kowalski wrote: > > > From: Roland Mainz > ... > > Umpf... because the ksh93 "default" is that no editor mode is enabled, > > leaving beginners completely puzzled how to proceed. > > So, insted we send these beginners off believing that gmacs is the way > it is. I don't think this is better. To me it sounds like you are saying that beginners must be forced through a steep learning curve because it's "good for them." > > The whole addition of /etc/ksh.kshrc is about improving _USUABILITY_. > > And, for me, usability is "vi" mode. > > I thought from the proposal, this was all about "ease of administation". > > Upon re-reading it, I see it does talk about ease of use, but frankly, > I don't buy it. You offend those who don't want "gmacs" mode by making > a stylistic choice. ... > Look, I'm not going to lie down on the tracks over this. Do any other > PSARC members feel uncomfortable over shipping a stylistic choice? If > not, I'll just go away and sulk. 8^) We should offer customers both *choice* and *wonderful defaults*. Choosing "none" has no impact on the former and fails the latter. I feel *great* about shipping a stylistic choice. Kudos, Roland. -dp -- Daniel Price - Solaris Kernel Engineering - dp@eng.sun.com - blogs.sun.com/dp From hlangeveld@mailworks.org Tue Oct 17 18:30:01 2006 Received: from sfbaymail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sfbaymail2sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.42]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k9I1U1bh020463 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 18:30:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-4.sun.com (nwkea-mail-4.Sun.COM [192.18.42.26]) by sfbaymail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.10/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id k9I1U0EP012139 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 18:30:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay23.sun.com (relay23.sun.com [192.12.251.54] (may be forged)) by nwkea-mail-4.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k9I1U0Sd024012 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 18:30:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mms27es.sun.com ([150.143.232.134] [150.143.232.134]) by relay23.sun.com with ESMTP for PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 01:29:59 Z Received: from relay21.sun.com (relay21.sun.com [192.12.251.14]) by mms27es.sun.com with ESMTP for PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 01:29:54 Z Received: from out1.smtp.messagingengine.com ([66.111.4.25] [66.111.4.25]) by relay21.sun.com with ESMTP for PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 01:29:16 Z Received: from db2.internal (db2.internal [10.202.2.12]) by frontend1.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89A3CDB518F; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 21:29:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from heartbeat1.messagingengine.com ([10.202.2.160]) by db2.internal (MEProxy); Tue, 17 Oct 2006 21:29:17 -0400 X-Sasl-enc: sWjBPUCJqpGzia7OW3PF6gnBDxl2y/QY+9RFvmvCATmn 1161134957 Received: from [10.0.0.1] (takoda.xs4all.nl [80.127.41.242]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 421A71576A; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 21:29:15 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <45358365.9060201@mailworks.org> Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 03:29:09 +0200 From: Henk Langeveld User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.7 (Windows/20060909) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Korn Shell 93 integration/migration project discussion CC: Joseph Kowalski , don.cragun@sun.com, PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com Subject: Re: [ksh93-integration-discuss] Re: /etc/ksh.kshrc for ksh93 [PSARC/2006/587 Timeout: 10/24/2006] References: <200610172318.k9HNIpuG977925@jurassic.eng.sun.com> <45356A4C.6C20D40F@nrubsig.org> In-Reply-To: <45356A4C.6C20D40F@nrubsig.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Content-Length: 1032 Roland Mainz wrote: > Uhm... there is no "fixed" format - /etc/ksh.kshrc is a shell script > (fragment) which gets sourced before ~/.kshrc ... Make that 'sourced before $ENV'. Note that ENV has to be set before the shell is invoked. ENV If this variable is set, then parameter expansion, command substitution, and arith- metic substitution are performed on the value to generate the pathname of the script that will be executed when the shell is invoked (see Invocation below). This file is typically used for alias and function definitions. The default value is $HOME/.kshrc. I remember a Certification question that asked for the correct order of /etc/profile, .kshrc, and ~/.profile. Bad question, no cookie. If there would be any default, it should use arrow keys. A beginner wouldn't expect anything more than that. Regards, -- Henk Langeveld 20+ years of ksh and vi myself. But that is not part of this argument. From Joseph.Kowalski@eng.sun.com Tue Oct 17 18:45:20 2006 Received: from jurassic.eng.sun.com (jurassic.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.58.166]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k9I1jKOa021131 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 18:45:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hawaiian-sun (vpn-129-150-12-95.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.12.95]) by jurassic.eng.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with SMTP id k9I1j8Ei121665; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 18:45:14 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <200610180145.k9I1j8Ei121665@jurassic.eng.sun.com> Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 15:45:10 -1000 (HST) From: Joseph Kowalski Reply-To: Joseph Kowalski Subject: Re: [ksh93-integration-discuss] Re: /etc/ksh.kshrc for ksh93[PSARC/2006/587 Timeout: 10/24/2006] To: Joseph.Kowalski@eng.sun.com, ksh93-integration-discuss@opensolaris.org, dp@eng.sun.com Cc: roland.mainz@nrubsig.org, don.cragun@sun.com, PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-MD5: h8+6vpQsXMPgL2PgumTHng== X-Mailer: dtmail 1.3.0 @(#)CDE Version 1.7_20 SunOS 5.11 i86pc i386 Status: RO Content-Length: 1867 > From: Dan Price ... > > So, insted we send these beginners off believing that gmacs is the way > > it is. I don't think this is better. > > To me it sounds like you are saying that beginners must be forced > through a steep learning curve because it's "good for them." Not at all. I'm saying its bad to mislead them into thinking gmacs is "THE WAY". > We should offer customers both *choice* and *wonderful defaults*. > Choosing "none" has no impact on the former and fails the latter. > > I feel *great* about shipping a stylistic choice. Kudos, Roland. Mostly a reasonable opinion. However, where is that "*wonderful defaults*"? You certainly aren't saying that gmacs is *wonderful* are you? Oh right, that's your preferred **style**. 8^) I think gmacs (in general) sucks. I'll grant you that its just my opinion and based on some historical artifacts that are no longer relevant, but its my opinion either way. Of course, the *wonderfulness* of gmacs isn't the issue. Its the pushing of a stylistic default. I was prepaired to "go with the flow", until I saw Richard Lowe's mail. It appears that defaults of "gmacs", "vi" and "none" are equally prevalent in other systems. If we want to help the newbee, being consistant across systems is the best way to accomplish that. Since "gmacs", "vi" and "none" are about equally prevelent, I guess we can't do that. The Pro's I see for each choice are: none: Pushes no style and matches 33% of the data we have. vi: Matches the "momentum leader" (Ubuntu), matches historical Solaris and matches 33% of the data we have. gmacs: Matches 33% of the data we have. Humm, this is nearly a three way tie, but upon closer examination, gmacs is in last place. Much to my surprize, "vi" appears to be the winner. Its amazing what real data can show. Thanks Richard! - jek3 From richlowe@richlowe.net Tue Oct 17 18:53:03 2006 Received: from sfbaymail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sfbaymail2sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.42]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k9I1r3gZ021291 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 18:53:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Sun.COM [192.18.98.43]) by sfbaymail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.10/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id k9I1r2ZI003288 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 18:53:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay12.sun.com (relay12.sun.com [217.140.40.34] (may be forged)) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k9I1r17Z019030 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 19:53:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mms11es.sun.com ([160.41.223.14] [160.41.223.14]) by relay12.sun.com with ESMTP for PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 01:53:01 Z Received: from relay12.sun.com (relay12.sun.com [217.140.40.34]) by mms11es.sun.com with ESMTP for PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 01:53:00 Z Received: from rwcrmhc13.comcast.net ([204.127.192.83] [204.127.192.83]) by relay12.sun.com with ESMTP for PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 01:53:00 Z Received: from [192.168.1.2] (c-71-203-214-110.hsd1.tn.comcast.net[71.203.214.110]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc13) with ESMTP id <20061018015258m1300m34k5e>; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 01:52:58 +0000 Message-Id: <453585AD.3040403@richlowe.net> Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 21:38:53 -0400 From: Richard Lowe User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060911) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Don Cragun CC: PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com Subject: Re: /etc/ksh.kshrc for ksh93 [PSARC/2006/587 Timeout: 10/24/2006] References: <200610171715.k9HHF708004950@spartan.SFBay.Sun.COM> In-Reply-To: <200610171715.k9HHF708004950@spartan.SFBay.Sun.COM> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Content-Length: 2986 Don Cragun wrote: [heavy snipping] > > ksh93 itself does not set a default editing mode; it would be a > standards violation to do so. In an interactive shell, in-line editing > will be disabled, unless an in-line editing option is set by one of the > configuration files read when the shell is invoked, or is set > explicitly by the user. > Using the ksh93 tarball provided by the ksh93-integration project, this appears to not be true. Without the provided ksh.kshrc present, it defaults to vi-style editing. This is also the behaviour of a freshly built AST ksh93r. I also take some issue with the statement regarding standards, though I have no particular skill at interpreting them. SuSv3 regarding sh(1): > Command Line Editing > > When sh is being used interactively from a terminal, the current > command and the command history (see fc) can be edited using vi-mode > command line editing. This mode uses commands, described below, > similar to a subset of those described in the vi utility. > Implementations may offer other command line editing modes > corresponding to other editing utilities. > > The command set -o vi shall enable vi-mode editing and place sh > into vi insert mode (see Command Line Editing (vi-mode)). This command > also shall disable any other editing mode that the implementation may > provide. The command set +o vi disables vi-mode editing. > > Certain block-mode terminals may be unable to support shell > command line editing. If a terminal is unable to provide either edit > mode, it need not be possible to set -o vi when using the shell on > this terminal. > > In the following sections, the characters erase, interrupt, kill, > and end-of-file are those set by the stty utility. It then goes onto describe the operation of vi-mode. I don't see anything specifying that the shell should not be in that mode by default beyond the fact that the statements regarding how one would enable it may imply it not being enabled as a default. It's also worth noting that this is purely with reference to sh(1), ksh appears to not be specified in any way by SuSv3. Since it's apparent I must be looking at the wrong standard, could this be updated to state which standard a default mode would violate. If indeed an sh(1) (or ksh(1)) must default to not having line editing as per standards yet unknown, why it is acceptable for this not to be how ksh93(1) would behave under Solaris. While not this case, precisely, are there any statements regarding how this will affect any future work to replace ksh(1) or the XPG.4 sh(1) with ksh93? Either will have a change in behaviour with their default mode being set to 'gmacs', and in the case of the XPG.4 sh(1), it's been somewhat stated above that this would in fact be a violation of standards (though the above also would mean the current XPG4 sh(1) is already in violation, by defaulting to vi-mode). -- Rich From roland.mainz@nrubsig.org Tue Oct 17 19:17:07 2006 Received: from sfbaymail1sca.SFBay.Sun.COM (sfbaymail1sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.154.35]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k9I2H7Zw021922 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 19:17:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Sun.COM [192.18.98.36]) by sfbaymail1sca.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id k9I2H6tI029071 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 19:17:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay21.sun.com (relay21.sun.com [192.12.251.14] (may be forged)) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k9I2H6XL014935 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 20:17:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mms27es.sun.com ([150.143.232.134] [150.143.232.134]) by relay21.sun.com with ESMTP; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 02:17:06 Z Received: from relay21.sun.com (relay21.sun.com [192.12.251.14]) by mms27es.sun.com with ESMTP; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 02:17:03 Z Received: from jupiterb48.nrubsig.org ([84.58.214.78] [84.58.214.78]) by relay21.sun.com with ESMTP; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 02:17:00 Z Received: from nrubsig.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by jupiterb48.nrubsig.org (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id k9I2GqPF011784; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 04:16:52 +0200 (CEST) Sender: gisburn@jupiterb48.nrubsig.org Message-Id: <45358E94.93AED368@nrubsig.org> Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 04:16:52 +0200 From: Roland Mainz X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.11 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Joseph Kowalski CC: ksh93-integration-discuss@opensolaris.org, PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com, don.cragun@sun.com Subject: Re: [ksh93-integration-discuss] Re: /etc/ksh.kshrc for ksh93[PSARC/2006/587 Timeout: 10/24/2006] References: <200610180024.k9I0O4IL999430@jurassic.eng.sun.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Content-Length: 2846 Joseph Kowalski wrote: > > > From: Roland Mainz > ... > > Umpf... because the ksh93 "default" is that no editor mode is enabled, > > leaving beginners completely puzzled how to proceed. > > So, insted we send these beginners off believing that gmacs is the way > it is. I don't think this is better. > > > The whole addition of /etc/ksh.kshrc is about improving _USUABILITY_. > > And, for me, usability is "vi" mode. If you want to make this the default for Solaris then I suggest to teach our students how to use "vi". First batch Tuesday 9.30am-11:30am, second batch 13:30h-15:30h (1st semester) ... I think these four hours should be enougth to convince anyone that using "vi" as default won't make many users happy. ... there is a reason why "bash" defaults to "emacs" - it is MUCH easier for beginners. > I thought from the proposal, this was all about "ease of administation". > > Upon re-reading it, I see it does talk about ease of use, but frankly, > I don't buy it. You offend those who don't want "gmacs" mode by making > a stylistic choice. Erm, I do not want to offend them. The new code (see http://bugs.grommit.com/show_bug.cgi?id=28) in /etc/ksh.kshrc explicitly checks whether any input mode was set yet and only uses "gmacs" if nothing else ("vi", "emacs" etc.) was enabled yet. And you can always override this setting in the per-user ~/.kshrc file. This is modelled after "bash"'s behaviour on Linux which is more or less the de-facto standard there. > > Please ask yourself: Why prefer people "bash" ? The answer is: Because > > it is a shell which is very easy to use. It has "working cursor keys" > > and is quite intuitive to use. I really like to do the same for ksh93 to > > improve the usuability of Solaris - the old Solaris ksh is really hated > > by both admins and users for not having "working cursor keys"&&history. > > We can't use "bash"'s solution of doing this via a builtin setting > > because this would violate the POSIX standard (which requires that all > > "set -o flags" are off by default (excluding any settings made after the > > shell started and reads it's startup files (like /etc/profile, > > /etc/ksh.kshrc, ~/.kshrc etc.))) - instead we use the file which was > > originally invented to handle this kind of settings: /etc/ksh.kshrc > > I don't buy your assertions. I don't prefer bash. ok... but I you don't fall into the category "beginner" or "student", right ? :-) [snip] > Look, I'm not going to lie down on the tracks over this. Do any other > PSARC members feel uncomfortable over shipping a stylistic choice? If > not, I'll just go away and sulk. 8^) ;-/ ---- Bye, Roland -- __ . . __ (o.\ \/ /.o) roland.mainz@nrubsig.org \__\/\/__/ MPEG specialist, C&&JAVA&&Sun&&Unix programmer /O /==\ O\ TEL +49 641 7950090 (;O/ \/ \O;) From roland.mainz@nrubsig.org Tue Oct 17 19:50:10 2006 Received: from sfbaymail1sca.SFBay.Sun.COM (sfbaymail1sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.154.35]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k9I2oACI022037 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 19:50:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (nwkea-mail-1.Sun.COM [192.18.42.13]) by sfbaymail1sca.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id k9I2oAEi007579 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 19:50:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay3.sun.com (relay3.sun.com [150.143.103.54] (may be forged)) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k9I2bjSe005430 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 19:50:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mms0aes.sun.com ([150.143.104.194] [150.143.104.194]) by relay3.sun.com with ESMTP; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 02:49:55 Z Received: from mms02bas.mms.us.syntegra.com (mms02bas.mms.us.syntegra.com [150.143.103.20]) by mms0aes.sun.com with ESMTP; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 02:49:55 Z Received: from jupiterb48.nrubsig.org ([84.58.214.78] [84.58.214.78]) by relay2.sun.com with ESMTP; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 02:49:54 Z Received: from nrubsig.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by jupiterb48.nrubsig.org (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id k9I2nevP011792; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 04:49:41 +0200 (CEST) Sender: gisburn@jupiterb48.nrubsig.org Message-Id: <45359644.44EEAD2@nrubsig.org> Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 04:49:40 +0200 From: Roland Mainz X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.11 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Richard Lowe CC: Joseph Kowalski , PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com, don.cragun@sun.com, ksh93-integration-discuss Subject: Re: /etc/ksh.kshrc for ksh93 [PSARC/2006/587 Timeout: 10/24/2006] References: <200610172318.k9HNIpuG977925@jurassic.eng.sun.com> <4535719E.200@richlowe.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Content-Length: 2722 Richard Lowe wrote: > Joseph Kowalski wrote: > >> gmacs is considered an intuitive beginner's editing mode. It is the > >> default editing mode in bash and more or less matches the common input > >> mode of various GUI toolkits and desktops, including Gnome/GTK+, > >> KDE/Qt, CDE/Motif, Mozilla/XULRunner/Gecko, JAVA, and Xaw/Xaw3D. > > Gnome/GTK default to win32-style C-v, C-x, C-c these days, where C-a is > "select all", not the almost-emacs readline-like editing keys. > > Mozilla and friends, as far as I know use whatever the toolkit they are > making use of use (under Solaris, at least, they follow the GNOME/GTK > setting). Mozilla shipped with SuSE Linux 10.0 and 10.1 use Emacs/Gmacs-style editor keys - and the same applies to Seamonkey 1.0 downloaded from Mozilla.org. Is it possible that you changed the setting somewhere ? [snip] > /usr/bin/ksh on Solaris defaults to vi editing, as do the ksh-based > standards shells. > > ksh93 on Linux (ubuntu, in this case) defaults to vi-like editing. General rant: Ubuntu really doesn't care about ksh93, they compiled the source and started shipping it without testing whether the bits really work (even the Debian ksh93 package is in a better shape than the Ubuntu one). Please look at other distributions which officially support ksh93 as part of their product. For example SuSE Linux ships /etc/ksh.kshrc and defaults to "gmacs" in 10.0 and "emacs" in 10.1 (in 10.1 /etc/ksh.kshrc is linked to /etc/bash.bashrc to have one central configuration for both shells). [snip] > ksh93 on MacOS X (10.4) appears to default to no line editing. Which is AFAIK the correct behaviour for POSIX unless a startup file (like /etc/profile, /etc/ksh.kshrc etc.) defines something specific. > ksh88 on IRIX 6.5 appears to default to no line editing. > > pdksh under CentOS 3.8 appears to default to no line editing. These are both ksh88 derivates or clones, playing in the same league as the old (and hated) Solaris "/usr/bin/ksh". They completely predate the concept behind /etc/ksh.kshrc and /etc/bash.bashrc BTW: The pdksh project appears to be dead since YEARS. The last changelog entry in http://www.cs.mun.ca/~michael/pdksh/ChangeLog is: -- snip -- Wed Jul 14 21:30:30 NDT 1999 Michael Rendell (michael@terra.cs.mun.ca) * var.c(setint): don't use vtemp - use local variable (at the suggestion of Gary Burchett ). -- snip -- AFAIK that was the last version of "pdksh" and most distribution dropped pdksh or are going to drop it in favour of "ksh93"... ---- Bye, Roland -- __ . . __ (o.\ \/ /.o) roland.mainz@nrubsig.org \__\/\/__/ MPEG specialist, C&&JAVA&&Sun&&Unix programmer /O /==\ O\ TEL +49 641 7950090 (;O/ \/ \O;) From roland.mainz@nrubsig.org Tue Oct 17 20:02:54 2006 Received: from sfbaymail1sca.SFBay.Sun.COM (sfbaymail1sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.154.35]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k9I32s45022569 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 20:02:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Sun.COM [192.18.98.43]) by sfbaymail1sca.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id k9I32sh4010894 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 20:02:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay1.sun.com (relay1.sun.com [150.143.103.14] (may be forged)) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k9I2u3Md019747 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 21:02:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mms07es.sun.com ([150.143.104.134] [150.143.104.134]) by relay1.sun.com with ESMTP; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 03:02:53 Z Received: from mms02bas.mms.us.syntegra.com (mms02bas.mms.us.syntegra.com [150.143.103.20]) by mms07es.sun.com with ESMTP; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 03:02:53 Z Received: from jupiterb48.nrubsig.org ([84.58.214.78] [84.58.214.78]) by relay2.sun.com with ESMTP; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 03:02:51 Z Received: from nrubsig.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by jupiterb48.nrubsig.org (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id k9I32gWe011797; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 05:02:43 +0200 (CEST) Sender: gisburn@jupiterb48.nrubsig.org Message-Id: <45359952.C973D4B@nrubsig.org> Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 05:02:42 +0200 From: Roland Mainz X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.11 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Joseph Kowalski CC: ksh93-integration-discuss@opensolaris.org, dp@eng.sun.com, don.cragun@sun.com, PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com Subject: Re: [ksh93-integration-discuss] Re: /etc/ksh.kshrc for ksh93[PSARC/2006/587 Timeout: 10/24/2006] References: <200610180145.k9I1j8Ei121665@jurassic.eng.sun.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Content-Length: 1645 Joseph Kowalski wrote: [snip] > I was prepaired to "go with the flow", until I saw Richard Lowe's mail. > It appears that defaults of "gmacs", "vi" and "none" are equally prevalent > in other systems. If we want to help the newbee, being consistant across > systems is the best way to accomplish that. Since "gmacs", "vi" and "none" > are about equally prevelent, I guess we can't do that. The Pro's I see > for each choice are: > > none: Pushes no style and matches 33% of the data we have. > > vi: Matches the "momentum leader" (Ubuntu), matches historical > Solaris and matches 33% of the data we have. > > gmacs: Matches 33% of the data we have. > > Humm, this is nearly a three way tie, but upon closer examination, gmacs > is in last place. Much to my surprize, "vi" appears to be the winner. > > Its amazing what real data can show. Thanks Richard! Plese read his email again. The majority of items were ksh88 or ksh88-clones (like pdksh) which completly predates inventions like /etc/ksh.kshrc or "usuability" ... and quoting Ubuntu's ksh93 behaviour was likely the worst item of the whole list (please compare this to SuSE Linux who support ksh93 as part of their product and actively do bugfixing (like Werner Fink's contributions to get all the bugs in japanese environments fixed)). After filtering the ksh88 items it looks like this: none: 1 (MacOSX) vi: 0 emacs/gmacs: 1 (SuSE Linux) ---- Bye, Roland -- __ . . __ (o.\ \/ /.o) roland.mainz@nrubsig.org \__\/\/__/ MPEG specialist, C&&JAVA&&Sun&&Unix programmer /O /==\ O\ TEL +49 641 7950090 (;O/ \/ \O;) From richlowe@richlowe.net Tue Oct 17 20:03:02 2006 Received: from sfbaymail1sca.SFBay.Sun.COM (sfbaymail1sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.154.35]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k9I331MF022578 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 20:03:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Sun.COM [192.18.98.36]) by sfbaymail1sca.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id k9I331b8011019 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 20:03:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay2.sun.com (relay2.sun.com [150.143.103.24] (may be forged)) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k9I32cug005884 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 21:03:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mms03es.sun.com ([150.143.104.54] [150.143.104.54]) by relay2.sun.com with ESMTP for PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 03:02:48 Z Received: from mms01bas.mms.us.syntegra.com (mms01bas.mms.us.syntegra.com [150.143.103.10]) by mms03es.sun.com with ESMTP for PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 03:02:48 Z Received: from rwcrmhc13.comcast.net ([216.148.227.153] [216.148.227.153]) by relay4.sun.com with ESMTP for PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 03:02:48 Z Received: from [192.168.1.2] (c-71-203-214-110.hsd1.tn.comcast.net[71.203.214.110]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc13) with ESMTP id <20061018030246m1300m1urpe>; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 03:02:47 +0000 Message-Id: <4535960A.2070300@richlowe.net> Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 22:48:42 -0400 From: Richard Lowe User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060911) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Roland Mainz CC: Joseph Kowalski , PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com, don.cragun@sun.com, ksh93-integration-discuss Subject: Re: /etc/ksh.kshrc for ksh93 [PSARC/2006/587 Timeout: 10/24/2006] References: <200610172318.k9HNIpuG977925@jurassic.eng.sun.com> <4535719E.200@richlowe.net> <45359644.44EEAD2@nrubsig.org> In-Reply-To: <45359644.44EEAD2@nrubsig.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Content-Length: 1139 Roland Mainz wrote: > Richard Lowe wrote: >> Joseph Kowalski wrote: >>>> gmacs is considered an intuitive beginner's editing mode. It is the >>>> default editing mode in bash and more or less matches the common input >>>> mode of various GUI toolkits and desktops, including Gnome/GTK+, >>>> KDE/Qt, CDE/Motif, Mozilla/XULRunner/Gecko, JAVA, and Xaw/Xaw3D. >> Gnome/GTK default to win32-style C-v, C-x, C-c these days, where C-a is >> "select all", not the almost-emacs readline-like editing keys. >> >> Mozilla and friends, as far as I know use whatever the toolkit they are >> making use of use (under Solaris, at least, they follow the GNOME/GTK >> setting). > > Mozilla shipped with SuSE Linux 10.0 and 10.1 use Emacs/Gmacs-style > editor keys - and the same applies to Seamonkey 1.0 downloaded from > Mozilla.org. Is it possible that you changed the setting somewhere ? > The default in Nevada matches the default of GNOME/GTK, which is gtk_key_theme being 'Default', which is windows-style keys. With gtk_key_theme changed to 'Emacs', which is not the default, both GNOME and Firefox change to using emacs-like keys. -- Rich From gsf@research.att.com Tue Oct 17 20:14:32 2006 Received: from sfbaymail1sca.SFBay.Sun.COM (sfbaymail1sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.154.35]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k9I3EWUk022689 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 20:14:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Sun.COM [192.18.98.31]) by sfbaymail1sca.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id k9I3EVAo020181 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 20:14:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay3.sun.com (relay3.sun.com [150.143.103.54] (may be forged)) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k9I39Hlh017691 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 21:14:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mms06es.sun.com ([150.143.104.114] [150.143.104.114]) by relay3.sun.com with ESMTP for PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 03:14:23 Z Received: from mms02bas.mms.us.syntegra.com (mms02bas.mms.us.syntegra.com [150.143.103.20]) by mms06es.sun.com with ESMTP for PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 03:14:22 Z Received: from mail-red.research.att.com ([192.20.225.110] [192.20.225.110]) by relay2.sun.com with ESMTP for PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 03:14:21 Z Received: from raptor.research.att.com (raptor.research.att.com [135.207.23.32]) by mail-blue.research.att.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A241147BEE; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 23:14:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from gsf@localhost) by raptor.research.att.com (SGI-8.9.3p2/8.8.7) id XAA94353; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 23:14:19 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 23:14:19 -0400 (EDT) From: Glenn Fowler Message-Id: <200610180314.XAA94353@raptor.research.att.com> Organization: AT&T Research X-Mailer: mailx (AT&T/BSD) 9.9 2006-04-17 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <200610171715.k9HHF708004950@spartan.SFBay.Sun.COM> <453515AE.5080208@sun.com> <45353D6C.40902@sun.com> <4535600B.7CAFECF5@nrubsig.org> To: john.plocher@sun.com, ksh93-integration-discuss@opensolaris.org Subject: Re: [ksh93-integration-discuss] Re: /etc/ksh.kshrc for ksh93[PSARC/2006/587 Timeout: 10/24/2006] Cc: don.cragun@sun.com, PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com Status: RO Content-Length: 2025 agreed that the sh rc namespace defies predictable naming /etc/ksh.kshrc is not an at&t idea its sort of goofy, with the exception of ny ny, to replicate a name in a path it was requested here http://mail.opensolaris.org/pipermail/ksh93-integration-discuss/2006-July/000511.html "like it is done on Linux" maybe the solaris vs linux guys can work this out offlist ... -- Glenn Fowler -- AT&T Research, Florham Park NJ -- On Wed, 18 Oct 2006 00:58:19 +0200 Roland Mainz wrote: > John Plocher wrote: > > > > Nit: With this proposal, we will have the following shell config files > > living in /etc: > > > > /etc/profile > > /etc/suid_profile > > /etc/.login > > /etc/ksh.kshrc > > /etc/default/su > > > > Where does the name "ksh.kshrc" come from? I'm worried that we don't > > seem to have or be following any naming pattern for these shell startup > > files. > /etc/ksh.kshrc comes from AT&T and the naming scheme was adopted by > other shells, too - for example bash has /etc/bash.bashrc for the same > purpose and we may (not this case, not this case, not...) want to add > something like /etc/sh.shrc and ~/.shrc to the POSIX shell standard in > the future. > >From a viewpoint as an adminstator the "/etc/ksh.kshrc"&co. files are > VERY usefull since it avoids the problem to update a few zillion > ~/.kshrc files in user accounts (which is a nightmare for the current > Solaris /usr/bin/ksh - it neither sets a default editor mode (which is > one of the primary reasons why many beginners prefer "bash") nor is > there a proper way to set one globally). > ---- > Bye, > Roland > -- > __ . . __ > (o.\ \/ /.o) roland.mainz@nrubsig.org > \__\/\/__/ MPEG specialist, C&&JAVA&&Sun&&Unix programmer > /O /==\ O\ TEL +49 641 7950090 > (;O/ \/ \O;) > _______________________________________________ > ksh93-integration-discuss mailing list > ksh93-integration-discuss@opensolaris.org > http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/ksh93-integration-discuss From gsf@research.att.com Tue Oct 17 20:52:51 2006 Received: from sfbaymail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sfbaymail2sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.42]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k9I3qpfE022873 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 20:52:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Sun.COM [192.18.98.43]) by sfbaymail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.10/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id k9I3qoC1019566 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 20:52:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay2.sun.com (relay2.sun.com [150.143.103.24] (may be forged)) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k9I3kZZt014920 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 21:52:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mms07es.sun.com ([150.143.104.134] [150.143.104.134]) by relay2.sun.com with ESMTP for PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 03:52:48 Z Received: from mms01bas.mms.us.syntegra.com (mms01bas.mms.us.syntegra.com [150.143.103.10]) by mms07es.sun.com with ESMTP for PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 03:52:48 Z Received: from mail-red.research.att.com ([192.20.225.110] [192.20.225.110]) by relay4.sun.com with ESMTP for PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 03:52:47 Z Received: from raptor.research.att.com (raptor.research.att.com [135.207.23.32]) by mail-green.research.att.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F4168740; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 23:52:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from gsf@localhost) by raptor.research.att.com (SGI-8.9.3p2/8.8.7) id XAA00051; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 23:52:47 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 23:52:47 -0400 (EDT) From: Glenn Fowler Message-Id: <200610180352.XAA00051@raptor.research.att.com> Organization: AT&T Research X-Mailer: mailx (AT&T/BSD) 9.9 2006-04-17 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <200610171715.k9HHF708004950@spartan.SFBay.Sun.COM> <453585AD.3040403@richlowe.net> To: don.cragun@sun.com, richlowe@richlowe.net Subject: Re: /etc/ksh.kshrc for ksh93 [PSARC/2006/587 Timeout: 10/24/2006] Cc: PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com Status: RO Content-Length: 855 On Tue, 17 Oct 2006 21:38:53 -0400 Richard Lowe wrote: > Don Cragun wrote: > [heavy snipping] > > ksh93 itself does not set a default editing mode; it would be a > > standards violation to do so. In an interactive shell, in-line editing > > will be disabled, unless an in-line editing option is set by one of the > > configuration files read when the shell is invoked, or is set > > explicitly by the user. > Using the ksh93 tarball provided by the ksh93-integration project, this > appears to not be true. Without the provided ksh.kshrc present, it > defaults to vi-style editing. with all of the { profile rc $ENV $EDITOR $HISTEDIT $VISUAL $FCEDIT } files/env-vars flying around one must be wary of absolutes try env - path-to-ksh93 --norc set -o and you should see all edit modes off -- Glenn Fowler -- AT&T Research, Florham Park NJ -- From gsf@research.att.com Tue Oct 17 21:03:42 2006 Received: from sfbaymail1sca.SFBay.Sun.COM (sfbaymail1sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.154.35]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k9I43gSY023298 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 21:03:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-4.sun.com (nwkea-mail-4.Sun.COM [192.18.42.26]) by sfbaymail1sca.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id k9I43gwj019942 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 21:03:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay3.sun.com (relay3.sun.com [150.143.103.54] (may be forged)) by nwkea-mail-4.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k9I3vu03029733 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 21:03:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mms09es.sun.com ([150.143.104.174] [150.143.104.174]) by relay3.sun.com with ESMTP for PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 03:54:34 Z Received: from mms01bas.mms.us.syntegra.com (mms01bas.mms.us.syntegra.com [150.143.103.10]) by mms09es.sun.com with ESMTP for PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 03:54:33 Z Received: from mail-red.research.att.com ([192.20.225.110] [192.20.225.110]) by relay4.sun.com with ESMTP for PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 03:54:32 Z Received: from raptor.research.att.com (raptor.research.att.com [135.207.23.32]) by mail-green.research.att.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E97F18740; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 23:54:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from gsf@localhost) by raptor.research.att.com (SGI-8.9.3p2/8.8.7) id XAA95108; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 23:54:31 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 23:54:31 -0400 (EDT) From: Glenn Fowler Message-Id: <200610180354.XAA95108@raptor.research.att.com> Organization: AT&T Research X-Mailer: mailx (AT&T/BSD) 9.9 2006-04-17 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <200610180024.k9I0O4IL999430@jurassic.eng.sun.com> <45358E94.93AED368@nrubsig.org> To: Joseph.Kowalski@eng.sun.com, ksh93-integration-discuss@opensolaris.org Subject: Re: [ksh93-integration-discuss] Re: /etc/ksh.kshrc for ksh93[PSARC/2006/587 Timeout: 10/24/2006] Cc: don.cragun@sun.com, PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com Status: RO Content-Length: 49 editor preference rationalizations > /dev/null From Joseph.Kowalski@eng.sun.com Tue Oct 17 22:10:48 2006 Received: from jurassic.eng.sun.com (jurassic.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.56.36]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k9I5Am03023985 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 22:10:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hawaiian-sun (vpn-129-150-12-95.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.12.95]) by jurassic.eng.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with SMTP id k9I5AOEG130832; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 22:10:47 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <200610180510.k9I5AOEG130832@jurassic.eng.sun.com> Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 19:10:41 -1000 (HST) From: Joseph Kowalski Reply-To: Joseph Kowalski Subject: Re: [ksh93-integration-discuss] Re: /etc/ksh.kshrc for ksh93[PSARC/2006/587 Timeout: 10/24/2006] To: Joseph.Kowalski@eng.sun.com, roland.mainz@nrubsig.org Cc: ksh93-integration-discuss@opensolaris.org, PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com, don.cragun@sun.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-MD5: JLga4oHaYdTvwPfO3ZhTFw== X-Mailer: dtmail 1.3.0 @(#)CDE Version 1.7_20 SunOS 5.11 i86pc i386 Status: RO Content-Length: 604 > From: Roland Mainz ... > > And, for me, usability is "vi" mode. > > If you want to make this the default for Solaris then I suggest to teach > our students how to use "vi". First batch Tuesday 9.30am-11:30am, second > batch 13:30h-15:30h (1st semester) ... I think these four hours should > be enougth to convince anyone that using "vi" as default won't make many > users happy. > > ... there is a reason why "bash" defaults to "emacs" - it is MUCH easier > for beginners. All this seems to say is that its easier for your site, not necessarily for "beginners". - jek3 From richlowe@richlowe.net Tue Oct 17 22:26:53 2006 Received: from sfbaymail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sfbaymail2sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.42]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k9I5Qrkh024380 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 22:26:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Sun.COM [192.18.98.43]) by sfbaymail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.10/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id k9I5QrAf017861 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 22:26:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay2.sun.com (relay2.sun.com [150.143.103.24] (may be forged)) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k9I4uPDp009246 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 23:26:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mms0aes.sun.com ([150.143.104.194] [150.143.104.194]) by relay2.sun.com with ESMTP for PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 05:26:52 Z Received: from mms02bas.mms.us.syntegra.com (mms02bas.mms.us.syntegra.com [150.143.103.20]) by mms0aes.sun.com with ESMTP for PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 05:26:50 Z Received: from rwcrmhc11.comcast.net ([216.148.227.151] [216.148.227.151]) by relay2.sun.com with ESMTP for PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 05:26:50 Z Received: from [192.168.1.2] (c-71-203-214-110.hsd1.tn.comcast.net[71.203.214.110]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc11) with ESMTP id <20061018052638m1100rurtve>; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 05:26:49 +0000 Message-Id: <4535BB0C.80001@richlowe.net> Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 01:26:36 -0400 From: Richard Lowe User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060911) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Glenn Fowler CC: don.cragun@sun.com, PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com Subject: Re: /etc/ksh.kshrc for ksh93 [PSARC/2006/587 Timeout: 10/24/2006] References: <200610171715.k9HHF708004950@spartan.SFBay.Sun.COM> <453585AD.3040403@richlowe.net> <200610180352.XAA00051@raptor.research.att.com> In-Reply-To: <200610180352.XAA00051@raptor.research.att.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Content-Length: 1165 Glenn Fowler wrote: > On Tue, 17 Oct 2006 21:38:53 -0400 Richard Lowe wrote: >> Don Cragun wrote: > >> [heavy snipping] > >>> ksh93 itself does not set a default editing mode; it would be a >>> standards violation to do so. In an interactive shell, in-line editing >>> will be disabled, unless an in-line editing option is set by one of the >>> configuration files read when the shell is invoked, or is set >>> explicitly by the user. > >> Using the ksh93 tarball provided by the ksh93-integration project, this >> appears to not be true. Without the provided ksh.kshrc present, it >> defaults to vi-style editing. > > with all of the > { profile rc $ENV $EDITOR $HISTEDIT $VISUAL $FCEDIT } > files/env-vars flying around one must be wary of absolutes > > try > env - path-to-ksh93 --norc > set -o > and you should see all edit modes off > Ah ha! So in some cases I didn't quite manage to make it stop guessing, my apologies to all. So, we're left with the absolute come what may default being 'none', but in some cases a guess being made if there is no explicit configuration which the proposed setting in ksh.kshrc would override? -- Rich From gsf@research.att.com Tue Oct 17 22:49:38 2006 Received: from sfbaymail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sfbaymail2sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.42]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k9I5nbqW024599 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 22:49:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Sun.COM [192.18.98.43]) by sfbaymail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.10/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id k9I5nbUY023648 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 22:49:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay21.sun.com (relay21.sun.com [192.12.251.14] (may be forged)) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k9I5nbgN009017 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 23:49:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mms24es.sun.com ([150.143.232.74] [150.143.232.74]) by relay21.sun.com with ESMTP for PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 05:49:36 Z Received: from relay21.sun.com (relay21.sun.com [192.12.251.14]) by mms24es.sun.com with ESMTP for PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 05:49:36 Z Received: from mail-red.research.att.com ([192.20.225.110] [192.20.225.110]) by relay21.sun.com with ESMTP for PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 05:49:36 Z Received: from raptor.research.att.com (raptor.research.att.com [135.207.23.32]) by mail-green.research.att.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FBCD86B7; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 01:49:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from gsf@localhost) by raptor.research.att.com (SGI-8.9.3p2/8.8.7) id BAA95690; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 01:49:35 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 01:49:35 -0400 (EDT) From: Glenn Fowler Message-Id: <200610180549.BAA95690@raptor.research.att.com> Organization: AT&T Research X-Mailer: mailx (AT&T/BSD) 9.9 2006-04-17 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <200610171715.k9HHF708004950@spartan.SFBay.Sun.COM> <453585AD.3040403@richlowe.net> <200610180352.XAA00051@raptor.research.att.com> <4535BB0C.80001@richlowe.net> To: gsf@research.att.com, richlowe@richlowe.net Subject: Re: /etc/ksh.kshrc for ksh93 [PSARC/2006/587 Timeout: 10/24/2006] Cc: don.cragun@sun.com, PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com Status: RO Content-Length: 1642 On Wed, 18 Oct 2006 01:26:36 -0400 Richard Lowe wrote: > Glenn Fowler wrote: > > On Tue, 17 Oct 2006 21:38:53 -0400 Richard Lowe wrote: > >> Don Cragun wrote: > > > >> [heavy snipping] > > > >>> ksh93 itself does not set a default editing mode; it would be a > >>> standards violation to do so. In an interactive shell, in-line editing > >>> will be disabled, unless an in-line editing option is set by one of the > >>> configuration files read when the shell is invoked, or is set > >>> explicitly by the user. > > > >> Using the ksh93 tarball provided by the ksh93-integration project, this > >> appears to not be true. Without the provided ksh.kshrc present, it > >> defaults to vi-style editing. > > > > with all of the > > { profile rc $ENV $EDITOR $HISTEDIT $VISUAL $FCEDIT } > > files/env-vars flying around one must be wary of absolutes > > > > try > > env - path-to-ksh93 --norc > > set -o > > and you should see all edit modes off > > > Ah ha! > So in some cases I didn't quite manage to make it stop guessing, my > apologies to all. > So, we're left with the absolute come what may default being 'none', > but in some cases a guess being made if there is no explicit > configuration which the proposed setting in ksh.kshrc would override? not so much guessing on ksh' part as doing what is prescribed the default edit mode is set by checking, in order: the value of $VISUAL if it ends in { vi emacs gmacs } the value of $EDITOR if it ends in { vi emacs gmacs } the last option or VISUAL/EDITOR settings in any of the { profile rc $ENV } startup files -- Glenn Fowler -- AT&T Research, Florham Park NJ -- From casper@holland.sun.com Tue Oct 17 23:50:24 2006 Received: from sunnl.holland.sun.com (sunnl.Holland.Sun.COM [129.159.201.1]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k9I6oNkc025212 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 23:50:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vaticaan.holland.sun.com (vaticaan [129.159.201.10]) by sunnl.holland.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id k9I6oIwf004359; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 08:50:18 +0200 (MEST) Received: from holland (casper@room101 [129.159.201.52]) by vaticaan.holland.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k9I6oI4M004495; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 08:50:18 +0200 (MEST) Message-Id: <200610180650.k9I6oI4M004495@vaticaan.holland.sun.com> From: Casper.Dik@sun.com To: Richard Lowe cc: Joseph Kowalski , PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com, don.cragun@sun.com Subject: Re: /etc/ksh.kshrc for ksh93 [PSARC/2006/587 Timeout: 10/24/2006] In-Reply-To: <4535719E.200@richlowe.net> References: <200610172318.k9HNIpuG977925@jurassic.eng.sun.com> <4535719E.200@richlowe.net> Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 08:50:18 +0200 Sender: casper@holland.sun.com Status: RO Content-Length: 471 >Gnome/GTK default to win32-style C-v, C-x, C-c these days, where C-a is >"select all", not the almost-emacs readline-like editing keys. Yes; very annoying; you have to change a (not well documented setting) to get your Emacs bindings. gtk-key-theme-name = "Emacs" >Mozilla and friends, as far as I know use whatever the toolkit they are >making use of use (under Solaris, at least, they follow the GNOME/GTK >setting). Gtk Mozilla does follow GNOME/GTK. Casper From casper@holland.sun.com Wed Oct 18 00:06:01 2006 Received: from sunnl.holland.sun.com (sunnl.Holland.Sun.COM [129.159.201.1]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k9I7602v026391 for ; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 00:06:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vaticaan.holland.sun.com (vaticaan [129.159.201.10]) by sunnl.holland.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id k9I75uQf013816; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 09:05:56 +0200 (MEST) Received: from holland (casper@room101 [129.159.201.52]) by vaticaan.holland.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k9I75ueT008121; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 09:05:56 +0200 (MEST) Message-Id: <200610180705.k9I75ueT008121@vaticaan.holland.sun.com> From: Casper.Dik@sun.com To: Joseph Kowalski cc: roland.mainz@nrubsig.org, ksh93-integration-discuss@opensolaris.org, PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com, don.cragun@sun.com Subject: Re: [ksh93-integration-discuss] Re: /etc/ksh.kshrc for ksh93[PSARC/2006/587 Timeout: 10/24/2006] In-Reply-To: <200610180510.k9I5AOEG130832@jurassic.eng.sun.com> References: <200610180510.k9I5AOEG130832@jurassic.eng.sun.com> Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 09:05:56 +0200 Sender: casper@holland.sun.com Status: RO Content-Length: 858 > >> From: Roland Mainz >... >> > And, for me, usability is "vi" mode. >> >> If you want to make this the default for Solaris then I suggest to teach >> our students how to use "vi". First batch Tuesday 9.30am-11:30am, second >> batch 13:30h-15:30h (1st semester) ... I think these four hours should >> be enougth to convince anyone that using "vi" as default won't make many >> users happy. >> >> ... there is a reason why "bash" defaults to "emacs" - it is MUCH easier >> for beginners. > >All this seems to say is that its easier for your site, not necessarily >for "beginners". I think I have to side with Roland; I use "vi" to edit but use "emacs" mode exclusively for command lined editing. The only intuitive editing I can think of is the use of the arrow keys; gmacs/emacs editing supports that; vi does not. Casper From Bernd.Finger@Sun.COM Wed Oct 18 01:02:23 2006 Received: from sfbaymail1sca.SFBay.Sun.COM (sfbaymail1sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.154.35]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k9I82NaK027280 for ; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 01:02:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com (gmpes-gis-mail-2.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.42.6]) by sfbaymail1sca.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id k9I82JJX024529 for ; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 01:02:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d1-emea-09.sun.com ([192.18.2.119]) by gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k9I82DpW000867 for ; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 09:02:13 +0100 (BST) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-emea-09.sun.com by d1-emea-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0J7B00701NLB7500@d1-emea-09.sun.com> (original mail from Bernd.Finger@Sun.COM) for PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 09:02:13 +0100 (BST) Received: from [129.157.142.72] by d1-emea-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0J7B00EG9NNNO8UW@d1-emea-09.sun.com> for PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 09:02:12 +0100 (BST) Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 10:01:13 +0200 From: Bernd Finger Subject: Re: [ksh93-integration-discuss] Re: /etc/ksh.kshrc for ksh93[PSARC/2006/587 Timeout: 10/24/2006] In-reply-to: <200610180705.k9I75ueT008121@vaticaan.holland.sun.com> Sender: Bernd.Finger@Sun.COM To: Korn Shell 93 integration/migration project discussion Cc: PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com Message-id: <4535DF49.2070105@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <200610180510.k9I5AOEG130832@jurassic.eng.sun.com> <200610180705.k9I75ueT008121@vaticaan.holland.sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.7 (X11/20060915) Status: RO Content-Length: 708 Casper, Casper.Dik@Sun.COM wrote: > I think I have to side with Roland; I use "vi" to edit but use > "emacs" mode exclusively for command lined editing. > > The only intuitive editing I can think of is the use of the arrow keys; > gmacs/emacs editing supports that; vi does not. In ksh93 r+ and s-, in vi edit mode, all cursor keys work fine on my test systems, just like in ?macs mode. Have you tried already? So the main difference between vi and ?macs mode for me is the need to use one of the vi commands like a, i, or cw to start inserting characters in vi mode. As this might be a problem for beginners or those that come from bash, I am fine with a default "gmacs" setting. Regards, Bernd From Alan.Hargreaves@Sun.COM Wed Oct 18 05:10:06 2006 Received: from sineb-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.19.6]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k9ICA4Tk000718 for ; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 05:10:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fe-apac-03.sun.com (fe-apac-03.sun.com [192.18.19.174] (may be forged)) by sineb-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k9IC9wTG025224 for ; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 20:09:59 +0800 (SGT) Received: from conversion-daemon.mail-apac.sun.com by mail-apac.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0J7B00I01YXC6A00@mail-apac.sun.com> (original mail from Alan.Hargreaves@Sun.COM) for PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 20:09:58 +0800 (SGT) Received: from [192.168.10.101] ([129.150.152.6]) by mail-apac.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0J7B00ETKZ4HJ6U0@mail-apac.sun.com> for PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 20:09:57 +0800 (SGT) Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 22:09:46 +1000 From: Alan Hargreaves Subject: Re: [ksh93-integration-discuss] Re: /etc/ksh.kshrc for ksh93[PSARC/2006/587 Timeout: 10/24/2006] In-reply-to: <4535DF49.2070105@sun.com> Sender: Alan.Hargreaves@Sun.COM To: Korn Shell 93 integration/migration project discussion Cc: PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com Message-id: <4536198A.7090802@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <200610180510.k9I5AOEG130832@jurassic.eng.sun.com> <200610180705.k9I75ueT008121@vaticaan.holland.sun.com> <4535DF49.2070105@sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060926) Status: RO Content-Length: 499 It appears to me that with the exception of one item, this case has converged. That one item is of course the "style issue". The question I feel that needs to be asked at this point is: Is this really an issue for the ARCs, or is this an implementation detail? If it's an implementation detail, then why on earth are we still discussing it? alan. -- Alan Hargreaves - http://blogs.sun.com/tpenta Staff Engineer (Kernel/VOSJEC/Performance) Systems Technical Service Center Sun Microsystems From joshhurst@gmail.com Wed Oct 18 05:34:40 2006 Received: from sfbaymail1sca.SFBay.Sun.COM (sfbaymail1sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.154.35]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k9ICYeUr001118 for ; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 05:34:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (nwkea-mail-2.Sun.COM [192.18.42.14]) by sfbaymail1sca.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id k9ICYdlx015102 for ; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 05:34:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay13.sun.com (relay13.sun.com [217.140.40.54] (may be forged)) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k9ICYccM001038 for ; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 05:34:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mms13es.sun.com ([160.41.223.54] [160.41.223.54]) by relay13.sun.com with ESMTP for PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 12:34:38 Z Received: from relay11.sun.com (relay11.sun.com [217.140.40.14]) by mms13es.sun.com with ESMTP for PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 12:34:37 Z Received: from py-out-1112.google.com ([64.233.166.178] [64.233.166.178]) by relay11.sun.com with ESMTP for PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 12:34:37 Z Received: by py-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id d80so367605pyd for ; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 05:34:36 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=dtm79tIiJtzPGx6IxugXT2spZ/ANZeK7cC1Rpz9NI6id16frxV2Cfw/KStGIk99dL6qHXZx7fzzL9OvjvbJti/LgPexU6CWLNXtWzCp5HG//SxKuyV2hSoXpdbZenhZ3roNRZ/AbdQyl+jPXmfLifZZtRIiomVBD4VDHQBsUvng= Received: by 10.35.18.4 with SMTP id v4mr17684818pyi; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 05:34:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.35.32.5 with HTTP; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 05:34:36 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 14:34:36 +0200 From: "Josh Hurst" To: "Korn Shell 93 integration/migration project discussion" Subject: Re: [ksh93-integration-discuss] Re: /etc/ksh.kshrc for ksh93[PSARC/2006/587 Timeout: 10/24/2006] Cc: PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com In-Reply-To: <4535DF49.2070105@sun.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <200610180510.k9I5AOEG130832@jurassic.eng.sun.com> <200610180705.k9I75ueT008121@vaticaan.holland.sun.com> <4535DF49.2070105@sun.com> Status: RO Content-Length: 1368 On 10/18/06, Bernd Finger wrote: > Casper, > > Casper.Dik@Sun.COM wrote: > > I think I have to side with Roland; I use "vi" to edit but use > > "emacs" mode exclusively for command lined editing. > > > > The only intuitive editing I can think of is the use of the arrow keys; > > gmacs/emacs editing supports that; vi does not. > > In ksh93 r+ and s-, in vi edit mode, all cursor keys work fine on my test > systems, just like in ?macs mode. Have you tried already? > > So the main difference between vi and ?macs mode for me is the need to use one > of the vi commands like a, i, or cw to start inserting characters in vi mode. As > this might be a problem for beginners or those that come from bash, I am fine > with a default "gmacs" setting. The behaviour of bash is a standard on Linux and I think there is no other option as to adopt it. Unfortunately I have to add a general note here: I am more and more shocked that such trivial items need to be debated at all. I am observing the ksh93 integration project nearly since the beginning and I have to question whether or not really all the bureaucracy is needed. I think Sun and the Open Solaris team should discuss options to streamline the integration process for all new projects and the bureaucracy needed during project evolution. The current process has become unbearable. -- Josh From carlsonj@phorcys.east.sun.com Wed Oct 18 05:39:22 2006 Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com (phorcys.East.Sun.COM [129.148.174.143]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k9ICdLZt001220 for ; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 05:39:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id k9ICg3RQ020955; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 08:42:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from carlsonj@localhost) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/Submit) id k9ICg3BE020952; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 08:42:03 -0400 (EDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <17718.8474.917044.731650@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 08:42:02 -0400 From: James Carlson To: Alan Hargreaves Cc: Korn Shell 93 integration/migration project discussion , PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com Subject: Re: [ksh93-integration-discuss] Re: /etc/ksh.kshrc for ksh93[PSARC/2006/587 Timeout: 10/24/2006] In-Reply-To: <4536198A.7090802@Sun.COM> References: <200610180510.k9I5AOEG130832@jurassic.eng.sun.com> <200610180705.k9I75ueT008121@vaticaan.holland.sun.com> <4535DF49.2070105@sun.com> <4536198A.7090802@Sun.COM> X-Mailer: VM 7.01 under Emacs 21.3.1 Status: RO Content-Length: 1859 Alan Hargreaves writes: > That one item is of course the "style issue". [...] > Is this really an issue for the ARCs, or is this an > implementation detail? The issue of style is architectural because of these concerns: - conformance to applicable standards - consistency with other Solaris applications - compatibility with other platforms Once you get past all of those, I think it's just a matter of taste. I'm not sure that makes it an "implementation detail," but it's no longer quite architectural. On matters of taste, especially where we aren't able to agree on the right answer, we've historically invoked the UIRB. Is that what's needed here? I hope not. (Is there any open process for the UIRB ... ?) I'd be happy with a default gmacs mode for ksh93[1]. I slightly agree with Joe that picking a default for everyone seems a bit presumptuous, but given that it's fairly easy to show that the normal key bindings for gmacs generally just do what a novice user expects and that's not true for any other editing mode[2], I think it's the best choice. That choice is also consistent with the default editing mode for "libtecla" (PSARC 2004/330; see also the tecla(5) man page), so I think it's architecturally sound for Solaris. Even if GNOME/GTK is driving off in a bizarre and unnatural Windows-like direction. 1. Full disclosure: as you can tell from my email headers, I'm a GNU emacs user. 2. "I have to hit the 'a' key twice to add an 'a', and then it doesn't even put the 'a' where I wanted, but instead puts it later on the line. And then I'm stuck in some kind of weird mode. What gives?" -- James Carlson, KISS Network Sun Microsystems / 1 Network Drive 71.232W Vox +1 781 442 2084 MS UBUR02-212 / Burlington MA 01803-2757 42.496N Fax +1 781 442 1677 From carlsonj@phorcys.east.sun.com Wed Oct 18 05:43:04 2006 Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com (phorcys.East.Sun.COM [129.148.174.143]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k9ICh3YY001287 for ; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 05:43:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id k9ICjj5U021005; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 08:45:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from carlsonj@localhost) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/Submit) id k9ICjjcs021002; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 08:45:45 -0400 (EDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <17718.8697.69856.365527@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 08:45:45 -0400 From: James Carlson To: Josh Hurst Cc: Korn Shell 93 integration/migration project discussion , PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com Subject: Re: [ksh93-integration-discuss] Re: /etc/ksh.kshrc for ksh93[PSARC/2006/587 Timeout: 10/24/2006] In-Reply-To: References: <200610180510.k9I5AOEG130832@jurassic.eng.sun.com> <200610180705.k9I75ueT008121@vaticaan.holland.sun.com> <4535DF49.2070105@sun.com> X-Mailer: VM 7.01 under Emacs 21.3.1 Status: RO Content-Length: 612 Josh Hurst writes: > Unfortunately I have to add a general note here: Please direct the flames at /dev/null. They are of no use here. This is a review. The point of a review is to avoid mistakes that can be costly or impossible to correct once made. If you want to ship without review, there are other readily-available open source venues that optimize for integration over quality. -- James Carlson, KISS Network Sun Microsystems / 1 Network Drive 71.232W Vox +1 781 442 2084 MS UBUR02-212 / Burlington MA 01803-2757 42.496N Fax +1 781 442 1677 From joshhurst@gmail.com Wed Oct 18 05:50:22 2006 Received: from sfbaymail1sca.SFBay.Sun.COM (sfbaymail1sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.154.35]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k9ICoMVO001343 for ; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 05:50:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Sun.COM [192.18.98.43]) by sfbaymail1sca.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id k9ICoMU0019367 for ; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 05:50:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay12.sun.com (relay12.sun.com [217.140.40.34] (may be forged)) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k9ICoLJN022853 for ; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 06:50:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mms11es.sun.com ([160.41.223.14] [160.41.223.14]) by relay12.sun.com with ESMTP for PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 12:50:20 Z Received: from relay13.sun.com (relay13.sun.com [217.140.40.54]) by mms11es.sun.com with ESMTP for PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 12:50:20 Z Received: from nz-out-0102.google.com ([64.233.162.203] [64.233.162.203]) by relay13.sun.com with ESMTP for PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 12:50:20 Z Received: by nz-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id m22so78322nzf for ; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 05:50:19 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=VkhRxwx1u+MINqGbFmY1dwR3aD63ar0f72ZxpGoUEBvQGe5Fa3m7kJ4bnvGw5jp1lhBh9FSJ+j4+Zs2IEQjlR7WKtaABJAnGgrQzA8rZh68u17YTyZCT8fkoNa1EcvrCd/iV1oBzZJWmBeJodTPIRdeDzQi4atfqClDm/yjZ/QM= Received: by 10.35.39.13 with SMTP id r13mr17693643pyj; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 05:50:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.35.32.5 with HTTP; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 05:50:19 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 14:50:19 +0200 From: "Josh Hurst" To: "James Carlson" Subject: Re: [ksh93-integration-discuss] Re: /etc/ksh.kshrc for ksh93[PSARC/2006/587 Timeout: 10/24/2006] Cc: "Korn Shell 93 integration/migration project discussion" , PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com In-Reply-To: <17718.8697.69856.365527@gargle.gargle.HOWL> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <200610180510.k9I5AOEG130832@jurassic.eng.sun.com> <200610180705.k9I75ueT008121@vaticaan.holland.sun.com> <4535DF49.2070105@sun.com> <17718.8697.69856.365527@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Status: RO Content-Length: 703 On 10/18/06, James Carlson wrote: > Josh Hurst writes: > > Unfortunately I have to add a general note here: > > Please direct the flames at /dev/null. They are of no use here. Please understand that I am trying to start a generalised discussion whether all this bureaucracy is REQUIRED. No other Open Source project requires this kind of excessive bureaucracy overhead. We can either discuss this here, in opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org or in the CAB list. I do not feel very well that I have to kickstart this discussion but I think the excessive delays in the ksh93 integration project are no longer bearable and require at least a look at the general process -- Josh From casper@holland.sun.com Wed Oct 18 05:58:56 2006 Received: from sunnl.holland.sun.com (sunnl.Holland.Sun.COM [129.159.201.1]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k9ICwq0c001760 for ; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 05:58:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vaticaan.holland.sun.com (vaticaan [129.159.201.10]) by sunnl.holland.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id k9ICwn1s018862; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 14:58:49 +0200 (MEST) Received: from holland (casper@room101 [129.159.201.52]) by vaticaan.holland.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k9ICwnqR012628; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 14:58:49 +0200 (MEST) Message-Id: <200610181258.k9ICwnqR012628@vaticaan.holland.sun.com> From: Casper.Dik@sun.com To: Korn Shell 93 integration/migration project discussion cc: PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com Subject: Re: [ksh93-integration-discuss] Re: /etc/ksh.kshrc for ksh93[PSARC/2006/587 Timeout: 10/24/2006] In-Reply-To: References: <200610180510.k9I5AOEG130832@jurassic.eng.sun.com> <200610180705.k9I75ueT008121@vaticaan.holland.sun.com> <4535DF49.2070105@sun.com> Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 14:58:49 +0200 Sender: casper@holland.sun.com Status: RO Content-Length: 1847 >I am more and more shocked that such trivial items need to be debated >at all. I am observing the ksh93 integration project nearly since the >beginning and I have to question whether or not really all the >bureaucracy is needed. I think Sun and the Open Solaris team should >discuss options to streamline the integration process for all new >projects and the bureaucracy needed during project evolution. >The current process has become unbearable. Are you part of the project team? Or are you speaking for the project team? Inside Sun we do get work done and we are faced with the same bureaucracy. I feel that these are valid architectural concerns; why do we need such discussions? It's because when we revisit them later we know why they were taken. It may seem cumbersome, but a lot of goodness comes out of it (such as the disappearance of Solaris libcmd) In the particular case of /etc/ksh.kshrc, we have several reasons for these discussions: - we introduce a file which is always read by ksh - nice for system administrators, so this is good - is it a pathname specific to Solaris or is it common? - this file changes the default editing setting to gmacs, but raises valid questions like: - does this override $EDITOR or $VISUAL? - does it override user's $ENV or ~/.profile or ~/.kshrc settings? - is this a sensible default (clearly there's a disagreement some (including me) think so, others such as jek3 do not; - is it a sensible way to implement the default? - is it how the default is implemented elsewhere? - since this file is supposed to be editable by the administrator what is the proposed patch/upgrade policy? (for /etc/profile we use a class action edit script; for /etc/.login, we just deliver the new file as /etc/.login.new) Are these unreasonable questions? Casper From Darren.Moffat@Sun.COM Wed Oct 18 07:06:44 2006 Received: from sfbaymail1sca.SFBay.Sun.COM (sfbaymail1sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.154.35]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k9IE6iun002770 for ; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 07:06:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com (gmpes-gis-mail-1.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.42.5]) by sfbaymail1sca.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id k9IE6hDP014228 for ; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 07:06:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d1-emea-09.sun.com (d1-emea-09.sun.com [192.18.2.119] (may be forged)) by gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k9IE6bgR002972 for ; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 15:06:37 +0100 (BST) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-emea-09.sun.com by d1-emea-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0J7C00L014ILDM00@d1-emea-09.sun.com> (original mail from Darren.Moffat@Sun.COM) for PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 15:06:36 +0100 (BST) Received: from [192.9.61.6] by d1-emea-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0J7C0046S4ILUU20@d1-emea-09.sun.com>; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 15:06:26 +0100 (BST) Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 15:05:42 +0100 From: Darren J Moffat Subject: Re: [ksh93-integration-discuss] Re: /etc/ksh.kshrc for ksh93[PSARC/2006/587 Timeout: 10/24/2006] In-reply-to: <200610180024.k9I0O4IL999430@jurassic.eng.sun.com> Sender: Darren.Moffat@Sun.COM To: Joseph Kowalski Cc: ksh93-integration-discuss@opensolaris.org, roland.mainz@nrubsig.org, PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com, don.cragun@Sun.COM Message-id: <453634B6.6060309@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <200610180024.k9I0O4IL999430@jurassic.eng.sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060925) Status: RO Content-Length: 462 Joseph Kowalski wrote: > Look, I'm not going to lie down on the tracks over this. Do any other > PSARC members feel uncomfortable over shipping a stylistic choice? If > not, I'll just go away and sulk. 8^) In ksh and zsh my CLI edit mode of choice is 'vi' however I think that this case is goodness over all for OpenSolaris distributions and Solaris in particular. I support it even though it is not my personal choice of edit mode. -- Darren J Moffat From Darren.Moffat@Sun.COM Wed Oct 18 07:12:07 2006 Received: from sfbaymail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sfbaymail2sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.42]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k9IEC7rV002816 for ; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 07:12:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com (gmpes-gis-mail-1.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.42.5]) by sfbaymail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.10/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id k9IEC6BH020885 for ; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 07:12:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d1-emea-09.sun.com (d1-emea-09.sun.com [192.18.2.119] (may be forged)) by gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k9IEC0ER003771 for ; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 15:12:00 +0100 (BST) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-emea-09.sun.com by d1-emea-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0J7C004014OGD200@d1-emea-09.sun.com> (original mail from Darren.Moffat@Sun.COM) for PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 15:12:00 +0100 (BST) Received: from [192.9.61.6] by d1-emea-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0J7C0044Z4RVUT20@d1-emea-09.sun.com>; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 15:12:00 +0100 (BST) Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 15:10:52 +0100 From: Darren J Moffat Subject: Re: /etc/ksh.kshrc for ksh93 [PSARC/2006/587 Timeout: 10/24/2006] In-reply-to: <45353D6C.40902@sun.com> Sender: Darren.Moffat@Sun.COM To: John.Plocher@Sun.COM Cc: ksh93-integration-discussion@opensolaris.org, Don Cragun , PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com Message-id: <453635EC.2080409@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <200610171715.k9HHF708004950@spartan.SFBay.Sun.COM> <453515AE.5080208@sun.com> <45353D6C.40902@sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060925) Status: RO Content-Length: 463 John Plocher wrote: > Nit: With this proposal, we will have the following shell config files > living in /etc: > > /etc/profile > /etc/suid_profile Where do you get this one from ? I don't see in on my snv_50 Solaris system. > /etc/.login > /etc/ksh.kshrc > /etc/default/su The last of those is NO a shell config file it is a config file for su that appears to be in a syntax similar to that used by some shells. -- Darren J Moffat From richlowe@richlowe.net Wed Oct 18 07:48:08 2006 Received: from sfbaymail1sca.SFBay.Sun.COM (sfbaymail1sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.154.35]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k9IEm8u2003219 for ; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 07:48:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (nwkea-mail-1.Sun.COM [192.18.42.13]) by sfbaymail1sca.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id k9IEm8KH005256 for ; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 07:48:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay11.sun.com (relay11.sun.com [217.140.40.14] (may be forged)) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k9IEm7Of008237 for ; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 07:48:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mms11es.sun.com ([160.41.223.14] [160.41.223.14]) by relay11.sun.com with ESMTP for PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 14:48:06 Z Received: from relay13.sun.com (relay13.sun.com [217.140.40.54]) by mms11es.sun.com with ESMTP for PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 14:48:06 Z Received: from rwcrmhc11.comcast.net ([216.148.227.151] [216.148.227.151]) by relay13.sun.com with ESMTP for PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 14:48:05 Z Received: from [192.168.1.2] (c-71-203-214-110.hsd1.tn.comcast.net[71.203.214.110]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc11) with ESMTP id <20061018144803m1100rviihe>; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 14:48:03 +0000 Message-Id: <45363EA0.2020006@richlowe.net> Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 10:48:00 -0400 From: Richard Lowe User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060911) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Darren J Moffat CC: Joseph Kowalski , ksh93-integration-discuss@opensolaris.org, don.cragun@sun.com, PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com Subject: Re: [ksh93-integration-discuss] Re: /etc/ksh.kshrc for ksh93[PSARC/2006/587 Timeout: 10/24/2006] References: <200610180024.k9I0O4IL999430@jurassic.eng.sun.com> <453634B6.6060309@Sun.COM> In-Reply-To: <453634B6.6060309@Sun.COM> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Content-Length: 891 Darren J Moffat wrote: > Joseph Kowalski wrote: >> Look, I'm not going to lie down on the tracks over this. Do any other >> PSARC members feel uncomfortable over shipping a stylistic choice? If >> not, I'll just go away and sulk. 8^) > > In ksh and zsh my CLI edit mode of choice is 'vi' however I think that > this case is goodness over all for OpenSolaris distributions and Solaris > in particular. > > I support it even though it is not my personal choice of edit mode. > [obvious caveat, I'm not a member] My concern isn't about which is the default, but about whether the default is pushed in this way at all. However, having spent the last several hours trying to come up with a better solution, and failing. I think I can support this too. (I do still harbour some concern regarding any future ksh(1) or sh(1) migration, however, but that's another case). -- Rich From gsf@research.att.com Wed Oct 18 08:12:49 2006 Received: from sfbaymail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sfbaymail2sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.42]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k9IFCnPt004117 for ; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 08:12:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Sun.COM [192.18.98.43]) by sfbaymail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.10/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id k9IFCmZb015427 for ; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 08:12:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay2.sun.com (relay2.sun.com [150.143.103.24] (may be forged)) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k9IExHW8022694 for ; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 09:12:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mms07es.sun.com ([150.143.104.134] [150.143.104.134]) by relay2.sun.com with ESMTP for PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 15:12:47 Z Received: from relay1.sun.com (relay1.sun.com [150.143.103.14]) by mms07es.sun.com with ESMTP for PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 15:12:46 Z Received: from mail-red.research.att.com ([192.20.225.110] [192.20.225.110]) by relay1.sun.com with ESMTP for PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 15:12:46 Z Received: from raptor.research.att.com (raptor.research.att.com [135.207.23.32]) by mail-blue.research.att.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49E6D147C2B; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 11:12:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from gsf@localhost) by raptor.research.att.com (SGI-8.9.3p2/8.8.7) id LAA38078; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 11:12:45 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 11:12:45 -0400 (EDT) From: Glenn Fowler Message-Id: <200610181512.LAA38078@raptor.research.att.com> Organization: AT&T Research X-Mailer: mailx (AT&T/BSD) 9.9 2006-04-17 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <200610180510.k9I5AOEG130832@jurassic.eng.sun.com> <200610180705.k9I75ueT008121@vaticaan.holland.sun.com> <4535DF49.2070105@sun.com> To: ksh93-integration-discuss@opensolaris.org Subject: Re: [ksh93-integration-discuss] Re: /etc/ksh.kshrc for ksh93[PSARC/2006/587 Timeout: 10/24/2006] Cc: PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com Status: RO Content-Length: 1273 On Wed, 18 Oct 2006 14:34:36 +0200 Josh Hurst wrote: > Unfortunately I have to add a general note here: > I am more and more shocked that such trivial items need to be debated > at all. I am observing the ksh93 integration project nearly since the > beginning and I have to question whether or not really all the > bureaucracy is needed. I think Sun and the Open Solaris team should > discuss options to streamline the integration process for all new > projects and the bureaucracy needed during project evolution. > The current process has become unbearable. "trivial" is hard to measure one byte edits can bring whole systems down "just because bash/linux does it" etc is not persuasive enough to change ~20 year ingrained semantics these are the issues I'm engaging here I wasn't aware I had a bureaucratic hat ... when people exec ksh *some* will expect ksh semantics and not bash those that want a bash slant to ksh are free to do so in $ENV or .profile those that want other slants are also free to do so there for newbie guidance why not provide a time honored, commented default .profile "# this sets the default edit mode to emacs ..." "ENV=$HOME/feel-like-bash-and-linux.sh # ..." -- Glenn Fowler -- AT&T Research, Florham Park NJ -- ^^^^ not sun From nw141292@binky.Central.Sun.COM Wed Oct 18 09:05:57 2006 Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM (binky.Central.Sun.COM [129.153.128.104]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k9IG5vnJ006012 for ; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 09:05:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k9IG5sd7024793; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 11:05:54 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from nw141292@localhost) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/Submit) id k9IG5soC024792; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 11:05:54 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 11:05:54 -0500 From: Nicolas Williams To: Darren J Moffat Cc: Joseph Kowalski , ksh93-integration-discuss@opensolaris.org, roland.mainz@nrubsig.org, PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com, don.cragun@sun.com Subject: Re: [ksh93-integration-discuss] Re: /etc/ksh.kshrc for ksh93[PSARC/2006/587 Timeout: 10/24/2006] Message-ID: <20061018160553.GH22881@binky.Central.Sun.COM> References: <200610180024.k9I0O4IL999430@jurassic.eng.sun.com> <453634B6.6060309@Sun.COM> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <453634B6.6060309@Sun.COM> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.7i Status: RO Content-Length: 440 On Wed, Oct 18, 2006 at 03:05:42PM +0100, Darren J Moffat wrote: > In ksh and zsh my CLI edit mode of choice is 'vi' however I think that > this case is goodness over all for OpenSolaris distributions and Solaris > in particular. > > I support it even though it is not my personal choice of edit mode. Those of us who prefer vi mode will know how to set it. Anything that at least arrow keys working by default is goodness. Nico -- From don.cragun@Sun.COM Wed Oct 18 09:26:17 2006 Received: from spartan.SFBay.Sun.COM (spartan.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.226.64]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k9IGQHHr006140 for ; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 09:26:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from spartan.SFBay.Sun.COM (spartan.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.226.64]) by spartan.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with SMTP id k9IGQDYm006988; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 09:26:13 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <200610181626.k9IGQDYm006988@spartan.SFBay.Sun.COM> Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 09:26:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Don Cragun Reply-To: Don Cragun Subject: Re: [ksh93-integration-discuss] Re: /etc/ksh.kshrc for ksh93[PSARC/2006/587 Timeout: 10/24/2006] To: PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com, gsf@research.att.com Cc: ksh93-integration-discuss@opensolaris.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-MD5: gUZ2ItXg8mWt5VIMCAqoHA== X-Mailer: dtmail 1.3.0 @(#)CDE Version 1.5.5 SunOS 5.9 sun4u sparc Status: RO Content-Length: 627 >Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 11:12:45 -0400 (EDT) >From: Glenn Fowler ... ... ... > >for newbie guidance why not provide a time honored, commented default .profile >"# this sets the default edit mode to emacs ..." >"ENV=$HOME/feel-like-bash-and-linux.sh # ..." > Hi Glenn, One reason for not changing .profile in this case is that doing so could change the behavior of /usr/bin/ksh and /usr/xpg4/bin/sh as well as providing a default editing mode for /usr/bin/ksh93. Setting a default (when an editing mode has not otherwise been established) in /etc/ksh.kshrc only affects /usr/bin/ksh93 users. - Don From john.plocher@sun.com Wed Oct 18 09:40:06 2006 Received: from jurassic.eng.sun.com (jurassic.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.58.166]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k9IGe6lb006352 for ; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 09:40:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [129.146.11.154] (sr1-umpk-02.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.154]) by jurassic.eng.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id k9IGdxNT353153; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 09:39:59 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <453658DF.6080209@sun.com> Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 09:39:59 -0700 From: John Plocher Reply-To: john.plocher@sun.com Organization: Systems Architecture Council - Tools and Process User-Agent: Mail/News 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060813) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Joseph Kowalski CC: ksh93-integration-discuss@opensolaris.org, dp@eng.sun.com, don.cragun@sun.com, PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com Subject: Re: [ksh93-integration-discuss] Re: /etc/ksh.kshrc for ksh93[PSARC/2006/587 Timeout: 10/24/2006] References: <200610180145.k9I1j8Ei121665@jurassic.eng.sun.com> In-Reply-To: <200610180145.k9I1j8Ei121665@jurassic.eng.sun.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Content-Length: 1526 Joseph Kowalski wrote: > I was prepaired to "go with the flow", until I saw Richard Lowe's mail. > It appears that defaults of "gmacs", "vi" and "none" are equally prevalent > in other systems. If we want to help the newbee, being consistant across > systems is the best way to accomplish that. Since "gmacs", "vi" and "none" > are about equally prevelent, I guess we can't do that. The Pro's I see > for each choice are: > > none: Pushes no style and matches 33% of the data we have. > > vi: Matches the "momentum leader" (Ubuntu), matches historical > Solaris and matches 33% of the data we have. > > gmacs: Matches 33% of the data we have. The real sleeper style in Richard's email is "MS Windows". As used by the current Solaris GNOME desktop, Mozilla and Firebird. If we really cared about being consistent, we would find a way to add that style to ksh93 and/or add the vi/emacs styles into GNOME so that users would not have to deal with several different styles. Anything else is just poor statistics and opinion. Religion and Politics. It was hard to build, so it should be hard to use... Where is the Architecture in this discussion? The mechanism of setting a default is in scope, but the actual value that is set there (none, vi, *emacs, *windoz) is IMHO more of a community/business decision. Since -John (a vi addict who misses emacs mode on the GNOME desktop) I can't resist a paraphrase of Richard's and Joe's analysis: vi is better than g/emacs, and Nothing is better than vi From Rhodri.Davies@Sun.COM Wed Oct 18 10:37:28 2006 Received: from beep.UK.Sun.COM (beep.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.173.75]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k9IHbRBt008059 for ; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 10:37:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from beep (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by beep.UK.Sun.COM (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7) with ESMTP id k9IHbT7g012726; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 18:37:29 +0100 (BST) To: Korn Shell 93 integration/migration project discussion , roland.mainz@nrubsig.org, don.cragun@Sun.COM, PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com Subject: Re: [ksh93-integration-discuss] Re: /etc/ksh.kshrc for ksh93[PSARC/2006/587 Timeout: 10/24/2006] References: <200610180024.k9I0O4IL999430@jurassic.eng.sun.com> <20061018011454.GL13191@eng.sun.com> From: Rhodri Davies - Sun UK Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 18:37:28 +0100 In-Reply-To: <20061018011454.GL13191@eng.sun.com> (Dan Price's message of "Tue, 17 Oct 2006 18:14:54 -0700") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.1008 (Gnus v5.10.8) Emacs/21.3 (usg-unix-v) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Status: RO Content-Length: 664 This morning, Dan Price wrote: > We should offer customers both *choice* and *wonderful defaults*. > Choosing "none" has no impact on the former and fails the latter. I seem to have lost that choice ;-) - well at least in the ksh93 tarball I've got installed... $ env -i /usr/bin/ksh93 -o vi $ set -o Current option settings . gmacs on vi off Are we saying that the above is now expected behaviour? Should this be documented? I'm all for setting emacs as the default line editing mode. I don't think that /etc/ksh.kshrc is the right place to do it. -- Rhodri From don.cragun@Sun.COM Wed Oct 18 10:49:24 2006 Received: from spartan.SFBay.Sun.COM (spartan.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.226.64]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k9IHnOmr008146 for ; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 10:49:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from spartan.SFBay.Sun.COM (spartan.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.226.64]) by spartan.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with SMTP id k9IHnNU9007116; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 10:49:24 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <200610181749.k9IHnNU9007116@spartan.SFBay.Sun.COM> Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 10:49:23 -0700 (PDT) From: Don Cragun Reply-To: Don Cragun Subject: Re: [ksh93-integration-discuss] Re: /etc/ksh.kshrc for ksh93[PSARC/2006/587 Timeout: 10/24/2006] To: Rhodri.Davies@Sun.COM Cc: ksh93-integration-discuss@opensolaris.org, PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-MD5: B6Pa9WzwpZpCjptTelwgKw== X-Mailer: dtmail 1.3.0 @(#)CDE Version 1.5.5 SunOS 5.9 sun4u sparc Status: RO Content-Length: 1196 >Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 18:37:28 +0100 >From: Rhodri Davies - Sun UK > >This morning, Dan Price wrote: >> We should offer customers both *choice* and *wonderful defaults*. >> Choosing "none" has no impact on the former and fails the latter. > >I seem to have lost that choice ;-) - well at least in the ksh93 >tarball I've got installed... This case changes the way ksh93 behaves from what you have in the tarball you have installed. > > $ env -i /usr/bin/ksh93 -o vi > $ set -o > Current option settings > . > gmacs on > vi off > >Are we saying that the above is now expected behaviour? Should this >be documented? No. As it currently stands, this case says gmacs will be set as the default editing mode IF AND ONLY IF ANOTHER EDITING MODE HAS NOT BEEN SET when /etc/ksh.kshrc is run. Assuming that you don't reset the editing mode by setting VISUAL or by using set -o gmacs in one of the other configuration files ksh93 uses, after the changes for this case are integrated gmacs mode would be off and vi mode would be on for the case you listed above. - Don ... ... ... From dp@snowdog.eng.sun.com Wed Oct 18 10:55:07 2006 Received: from snowdog.eng.sun.com (snowdog.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.228.213]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k9IHt72c008656 for ; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 10:55:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from snowdog.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by snowdog.eng.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7) with ESMTP id k9IHt1p9015341; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 10:55:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from dp@localhost) by snowdog.eng.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/Submit) id k9IHt1vw015340; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 10:55:01 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 10:55:00 -0700 From: Dan Price To: Joseph Kowalski Cc: ksh93-integration-discuss@opensolaris.org, roland.mainz@nrubsig.org, don.cragun@sun.com, PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com Subject: Re: [ksh93-integration-discuss] Re: /etc/ksh.kshrc for ksh93[PSARC/2006/587 Timeout: 10/24/2006] Message-ID: <20061018175500.GP13191@eng.sun.com> References: <200610180145.k9I1j8Ei121665@jurassic.eng.sun.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200610180145.k9I1j8Ei121665@jurassic.eng.sun.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i Status: RO Content-Length: 2268 On Tue 17 Oct 2006 at 03:45PM, Joseph Kowalski wrote: > > > From: Dan Price > ... > > > So, insted we send these beginners off believing that gmacs is the way > > > it is. I don't think this is better. > > > > To me it sounds like you are saying that beginners must be forced > > through a steep learning curve because it's "good for them." > > Not at all. > > I'm saying its bad to mislead them into thinking gmacs is "THE WAY". [from another email] > You failed to list one choice: "none". As per my next mail, I think this > is the best choice. I don't like pushing stylistic choices as defaults. I feel strongly enough that I want to discuss this further. It's this last sentence which upsets me. The use of "stylistic choices" as a phrase seems to conjure the idea that we're interior decorators here, and I think that's misleading. I'll let others decide if it is in scope for ARC to give guidance, I have no opinion on that point. As priniciples: Yes, give customers choice where appropriate. Yes, give them defaults which unlock a reasonable set of functionality. Make the system approachable to new users. If possible, give them an experience that delights. > Oh right, that's your preferred **style**. 8^) > > Of course, the *wonderfulness* of gmacs isn't the issue. Its the > pushing of a stylistic default. I *never* said I prefer emacs. I only applauded Roland's project team for making a choice which they believe will be best for the customers they have studied, and pursuing that. If it was vi mode and they made a case that vi mode is truly wonderful, then great. My thought is that we should revamp all of the interactive shell defaults to have consistent (across the shells) and excellent default interactive settings, with useful prompts and default behaviors whereever possible. And yes, we should do so judiciously, with all due deliberation. Would you defend: bash-3.00$ (bash) or > (tcsh) as a reasonable default prompt for a shell suitable for an interactive user? "bash-3.00$" is the kind of crapola we wind up with when we follow the policy of "none" (bash and tcsh shown, respectively). -dp -- Daniel Price - Solaris Kernel Engineering - dp@eng.sun.com - blogs.sun.com/dp From dwc@spartan.eng.sun.com Wed Oct 18 14:11:37 2006 Received: from spartan.SFBay.Sun.COM (spartan.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.226.64]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k9ILBbuk012745 for ; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 14:11:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from spartan.SFBay.Sun.COM (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spartan.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k9ILBaRS008294; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 14:11:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from dwc@localhost) by spartan.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/Submit) id k9ILBaVE008293; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 14:11:36 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 14:11:36 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <200610182111.k9ILBaVE008293@spartan.SFBay.Sun.COM> From: Don Cragun To: PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com Cc: ksh93-integration-discuss@opensolaris.org Subject: Re: /etc/ksh.kshrc for ksh93[PSARC/2006/587 Timeout: 10/24/2006] Status: RO Content-Length: 2651 All, This is a status report on this case from the case owner... 1. login.1 and su.1 man pages have been added to the materials directory. Diffmarks in login.1 show changes made since PSARC case 2006/550 was approved. Diffmarks in su.1 show changes from the current man page (su.1 was not updated by 2006/550). These changes are supplied in response to a question raised by John Plocher. 2. The interfaces table is updated as follows: Interface Stability Description ========= ========= =========== /etc/ksh.kshrc Committed Per-system configuration file for interactive ksh93 sessions /etc/ksh.kshrc Uncommitted contents 3. There is a lot of discussion about whether any default editing mode should be provided for ksh93 and if so: A. which one, B. where it should be set, and C. should it also be set for /usr/bin/ksh and /usr/xpg4/bin/sh. My personal interpretation of the discussion so far is that the vast majority of people participating in the discussion believe that there should be a default, and: A. Which one isn't really an architectural issue. Some Linux distros default to none, some default to gmacs, and some default to vi. Most other shells on Linux distros default to a gmacs/emacs-like editing mode. B. /etc/ksh.kshrc and $HOME/.kshrc are the only places to do this without also affecting /usr/bin/ksh and /usr/xpg4/bin/sh users. The project team has done a lot of research in this area and believes that /etc/ksh.kshrc is a better choice than $HOME/.kshrc. Although I think either one would be reasonable, I see no reason for the ARC to override this decision. I don't see it as architecture. A user can easily override the default in a personal $HOME/.kshrc or $HOME/.profile no matter which way this is handled. C. If (or when) a case comes forward to replace one or more of /sbin/sh, /usr/bin/sh, /usr/bin/ksh, and /usr/xpg4/bin/sh with ksh93 we will need to discuss this again as a compatibility issue. That discussion should not sidetrack this case. Note that /sbin/sh and /usr/bin/sh do not currently provide any command line editing options. I do not believe this case should change the behavior of /usr/bin/ksh nor /usr/xpg4/bin/sh. Note that this case is seeking a patch binding with a possibility of being backported to prior releases. I do not believe that a patch that installs an alternative shell as part of a feature patch should affect the behavior of other shells. The project team expects to integrate the changes for PSARC case 2006/550 and this case at the same time. Sincerely, Don From Joseph.Kowalski@eng.sun.com Wed Oct 18 18:02:08 2006 Received: from jurassic.eng.sun.com (jurassic.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.17.55]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k9J128CV024330 for ; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 18:02:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hawaiian-sun (vpn-129-150-12-95.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.12.95]) by jurassic.eng.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with SMTP id k9J121sq172676; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 18:02:07 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <200610190102.k9J121sq172676@jurassic.eng.sun.com> Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 15:01:59 -1000 (HST) From: Joseph Kowalski Reply-To: Joseph Kowalski Subject: Re: [ksh93-integration-discuss] Re: /etc/ksh.kshrc for ksh93[PSARC/2006/587 Timeout: 10/24/2006] To: ksh93-integration-discuss@opensolaris.org, Alan.Hargreaves@sun.com Cc: PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-MD5: BjFpqDuKjKKlh5K70WFldw== X-Mailer: dtmail 1.3.0 @(#)CDE Version 1.7_20 SunOS 5.11 i86pc i386 Status: RO Content-Length: 1289 > From: Alan Hargreaves ... > It appears to me that with the exception of one item, this case has > converged. > > That one item is of course the "style issue". > > The question I feel that needs to be asked at this point is: > > Is this really an issue for the ARCs, or is this an > implementation detail? > > If it's an implementation detail, then why on earth are we still > discussing it? I may drop my objections (seeing as how I seem to be alone in them), but I believe the default value is not quite a stylistic choice and even if it was, it is well within the domain of the review. Frankly, I'm dismayed by the number of assertions as to what is best without any backing data. The resolution to this should not be: What any engineer thinks is best. Or even: What the development community thinks is best. But rather: What will best satisfy the largest portion of our user base. This last (and correct) answer pushes us (the community and the ARC) into the relm of interpreters of insufficient data where our experience as **customer interfacing** engineers comes into play. In all cases, our personal experiences and preferences as individual engineers (or individual site administrators) should be left at the door. Sigh, - jek3 From Joseph.Kowalski@eng.sun.com Wed Oct 18 18:15:39 2006 Received: from jurassic.eng.sun.com (jurassic.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.106.31]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k9J1Fd3a025541 for ; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 18:15:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hawaiian-sun (vpn-129-150-12-95.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.12.95]) by jurassic.eng.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with SMTP id k9J1FLQJ177853; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 18:15:28 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <200610190115.k9J1FLQJ177853@jurassic.eng.sun.com> Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 15:15:19 -1000 (HST) From: Joseph Kowalski Reply-To: Joseph Kowalski Subject: Re: [ksh93-integration-discuss] Re: /etc/ksh.kshrc for ksh93[PSARC/2006/587 Timeout: 10/24/2006] To: james.d.carlson@sun.com, joshhurst@gmail.com Cc: ksh93-integration-discuss@opensolaris.org, PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-MD5: YHYBgvTSDKYerZoaJILmSQ== X-Mailer: dtmail 1.3.0 @(#)CDE Version 1.7_20 SunOS 5.11 i86pc i386 Status: RO Content-Length: 1893 > On 10/18/06, James Carlson wrote: > > Josh Hurst writes: > > > Unfortunately I have to add a general note here: > > > > Please direct the flames at /dev/null. They are of no use here. > Please understand that I am trying to start a generalised discussion > whether all this bureaucracy is REQUIRED. No other Open Source project > requires this kind of excessive bureaucracy overhead. We can either > discuss this here, in opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org or in the > CAB list. > I do not feel very well that I have to kickstart this discussion but I > think the excessive delays in the ksh93 integration project are no > longer bearable and require at least a look at the general process > -- > Josh Well, at least you could attempt to kick-start it on the approrpriate alias with the approprate subject line, eh? opensolaris-arc seems appropriate to me. Go forth and kick. Before doing so, I'd suggest you reconcile the roles of the ARC in this community and the "committer" in most communities in your mind. For example, in Linux proper, if Linus doesn't like your change, well tough. Its true that totalitarianism doesn't need much bureaucracy. The open exchange of ideas and opinions takes time. That said, even though I'm probably seen as one of the bandleaders of the "trivial" discussions, I too am surprized how these ksh cases have tended to minutia. This isn't typical. I think it is in part to a disconnect of expectations. As I said, the ARC process often places us in the role of judging/guessing what our users would prefer. This isn't what each of us would prefer or we would prefer for our site. Its not clear that the community members aren't used to accepting the most common of their personal opinions. I'd actually like to see an open discussion of the above on the appropriate alias with the appropriate subject line. - jek3 From Joseph.Kowalski@eng.sun.com Wed Oct 18 18:21:45 2006 Received: from jurassic.eng.sun.com (jurassic.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.228.31]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k9J1LjtG025613 for ; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 18:21:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hawaiian-sun (vpn-129-150-12-95.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.12.95]) by jurassic.eng.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with SMTP id k9J1LYRG180009; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 18:21:40 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <200610190121.k9J1LYRG180009@jurassic.eng.sun.com> Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 15:21:31 -1000 (HST) From: Joseph Kowalski Reply-To: Joseph Kowalski Subject: Re: [ksh93-integration-discuss] Re: /etc/ksh.kshrc for ksh93[PSARC/2006/587 Timeout: 10/24/2006] To: Darren.Moffat@sun.com, richlowe@richlowe.net Cc: Joseph.Kowalski@eng.sun.com, ksh93-integration-discuss@opensolaris.org, don.cragun@sun.com, PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-MD5: Eg2pixp9n5KMPY5BjMzQcQ== X-Mailer: dtmail 1.3.0 @(#)CDE Version 1.7_20 SunOS 5.11 i86pc i386 Status: RO Content-Length: 332 > From: Richard Lowe ... > (I do still harbour some concern regarding any future ksh(1) or sh(1) > migration, however, but that's another case). Very interesting question. Don (as in Cragun), would having a default edit mode for ksh93 prevent it from eventually becoming the SUS conforming ksh? - jek3 From roland.mainz@nrubsig.org Wed Oct 18 18:41:09 2006 Received: from sfbaymail1sca.SFBay.Sun.COM (sfbaymail1sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.154.35]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k9J1f8Sd025742 for ; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 18:41:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-4.sun.com (nwkea-mail-4.Sun.COM [192.18.42.26]) by sfbaymail1sca.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id k9J1f8PI005092 for ; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 18:41:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay11.sun.com (relay11.sun.com [217.140.40.14] (may be forged)) by nwkea-mail-4.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k9J1f7wh005378 for ; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 18:41:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mms12es.sun.com ([160.41.223.34] [160.41.223.34]) by relay11.sun.com with ESMTP; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 01:41:07 Z Received: from relay11.sun.com (relay11.sun.com [217.140.40.14]) by mms12es.sun.com with ESMTP; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 01:41:06 Z Received: from jupiterb48.nrubsig.org ([84.58.228.38] [84.58.228.38]) by relay11.sun.com with ESMTP; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 01:41:06 Z Received: from nrubsig.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by jupiterb48.nrubsig.org (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id k9J1ewJ4013091; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 03:40:58 +0200 (CEST) Sender: gisburn@jupiterb48.nrubsig.org Message-Id: <4536D7A9.CF162849@nrubsig.org> Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 03:40:57 +0200 From: Roland Mainz X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.11 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Joseph Kowalski CC: Darren.Moffat@sun.com, richlowe@richlowe.net, ksh93-integration-discuss@opensolaris.org, don.cragun@sun.com, PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com Subject: Re: [ksh93-integration-discuss] Re: /etc/ksh.kshrc forksh93[PSARC/2006/587 Timeout: 10/24/2006] References: <200610190121.k9J1LYRG180009@jurassic.eng.sun.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Content-Length: 1361 Joseph Kowalski wrote: > > > From: Richard Lowe > ... > > (I do still harbour some concern regarding any future ksh(1) or sh(1) > > migration, however, but that's another case). > > Very interesting question. > > Don (as in Cragun), would having a default edit mode for ksh93 prevent > it from eventually becoming the SUS conforming ksh? AFAIK there is no "SUS-conforming ksh", only a "SUS-conforming sh" ... and AFAIK the answer is "no" because the standard doesn't prevent the implementation of extra startup files and does not standartize the content of such files, including /etc/profile and /etc/ksh.kshrc ... those files are sourced after the shell started. AFAIK the only requirement is that the shell must not have any "set -o" flags turned on at startup - but this is before the point where any startup files (like /etc/profile, ~/.profile, /etc/ksh.kshrc and ~/.kshrc) are sourced. ---- Bye, Roland P.S.: We may want (not this case, not this case, not...) to adjust ksh93 to source /etc/sh.shrc and ~/.shrc when launched as /usr/bin/sh or /usr/xpg4/bin/sh and then ask the standard people to include this in the standard (because it is usefull... :-) ). -- __ . . __ (o.\ \/ /.o) roland.mainz@nrubsig.org \__\/\/__/ MPEG specialist, C&&JAVA&&Sun&&Unix programmer /O /==\ O\ TEL +49 641 7950090 (;O/ \/ \O;) From don.cragun@Sun.COM Wed Oct 18 18:41:38 2006 Received: from spartan.SFBay.Sun.COM (spartan.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.226.64]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k9J1fc3x025758 for ; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 18:41:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from spartan.SFBay.Sun.COM (spartan.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.226.64]) by spartan.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with SMTP id k9J1fbSg008612; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 18:41:37 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <200610190141.k9J1fbSg008612@spartan.SFBay.Sun.COM> Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 18:41:37 -0700 (PDT) From: Don Cragun Reply-To: Don Cragun Subject: Re: /etc/ksh.kshrc for ksh93[PSARC/2006/587 Timeout: 10/24/2006] To: PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com Cc: ksh93-integration-discuss@opensolaris.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-MD5: LYqs7WEdjqznWxRWvve59g== X-Mailer: dtmail 1.3.0 @(#)CDE Version 1.5.5 SunOS 5.9 sun4u sparc Status: RO Content-Length: 1412 >Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 15:21:31 -1000 (HST) >From: Joseph Kowalski > >> From: Richard Lowe >... >> (I do still harbour some concern regarding any future ksh(1) or sh(1) >> migration, however, but that's another case). > >Very interesting question. > >Don (as in Cragun), would having a default edit mode for ksh93 prevent >it from eventually becoming the SUS conforming ksh? No. He would not. There is a difference between having a configuration file which can be adjusted by your system administrator to set a default editing mode (OK according to the standard), and having ksh93 always set a default editing mode even if no configuration files are present on the system (not allowed by the standard). The standard, however, only talks about what happens when the shell is named "sh"; the standard says nothing about a shell named "ksh93". This case is about "ksh93"; not "sh". The name(s) of the configuration file(s) will change when (if) ksh93 becomes /usr/bin/sh or /usr/xpg4/bin/sh such that they will be compatible with the standard. My understanding is that ksh93 already does this if the last component of the pathname where it is installed is "sh". But, again, that is not this case. - Don (Or in this case: Donald W. Cragun, Chair of the IEEE Portable Applications Standards Committee's Shell & Utilities Working Group.) > >- jek3 From roland.mainz@nrubsig.org Wed Oct 18 18:54:09 2006 Received: from sfbaymail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sfbaymail2sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.42]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k9J1s9QQ025923 for ; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 18:54:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Sun.COM [192.18.98.34]) by sfbaymail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.10/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id k9J1s8DT015977 for ; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 18:54:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay12.sun.com (relay12.sun.com [217.140.40.34] (may be forged)) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k9J1s7JN005585 for ; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 19:54:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mms13es.sun.com ([160.41.223.54] [160.41.223.54]) by relay12.sun.com with ESMTP for PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 01:54:06 Z Received: from relay11.sun.com (relay11.sun.com [217.140.40.14]) by mms13es.sun.com with ESMTP for PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 01:54:06 Z Received: from jupiterb48.nrubsig.org ([84.58.228.38] [84.58.228.38]) by relay11.sun.com with ESMTP for PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 01:54:06 Z Received: from nrubsig.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by jupiterb48.nrubsig.org (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id k9J1s1Kl013097; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 03:54:01 +0200 (CEST) Sender: gisburn@jupiterb48.nrubsig.org Message-Id: <4536DAB9.7CB71B9C@nrubsig.org> Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 03:54:01 +0200 From: Roland Mainz X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.11 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Korn Shell 93 integration/migration project discussion CC: PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com Subject: Re: [ksh93-integration-discuss] Re: /etc/ksh.kshrc forksh93[PSARC/2006/587 Timeout: 10/24/2006] References: <200610180510.k9I5AOEG130832@jurassic.eng.sun.com> <200610180705.k9I75ueT008121@vaticaan.holland.sun.com> <4535DF49.2070105@sun.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Content-Length: 2221 Josh Hurst wrote: > On 10/18/06, Bernd Finger wrote: > > Casper, > > Casper.Dik@Sun.COM wrote: > > > I think I have to side with Roland; I use "vi" to edit but use > > > "emacs" mode exclusively for command lined editing. > > > > > > The only intuitive editing I can think of is the use of the arrow keys; > > > gmacs/emacs editing supports that; vi does not. > > > > In ksh93 r+ and s-, in vi edit mode, all cursor keys work fine on my test > > systems, just like in ?macs mode. Have you tried already? > > > > So the main difference between vi and ?macs mode for me is the need to use one > > of the vi commands like a, i, or cw to start inserting characters in vi mode. As > > this might be a problem for beginners or those that come from bash, I am fine > > with a default "gmacs" setting. > The behaviour of bash is a standard on Linux and I think there is no > other option as to adopt it. > > Unfortunately I have to add a general note here: > I am more and more shocked that such trivial items need to be debated > at all. Well, this issue is actually a mistake of the first ksh93-integration ARC case. I didn't check the material good enougth against the prototype codebase and forgot to point out that we have to deliver a /etc/ksh.kshrc file with some specific content. My fault. > I am observing the ksh93 integration project nearly since the > beginning and I have to question whether or not really all the > bureaucracy is needed. In this case it is needed since the original ksh93-integration ARC case didn't cover that file... that's all. > I think Sun and the Open Solaris team should > discuss options to streamline the integration process for all new > projects and the bureaucracy needed during project evolution. Well, we may want to discuss this after out initial putback is done (I don't like to be caught in a crossfire of getting the code putback and a large discussion). I think I have an idea how this could be solved... ... but please let us finish this work first. Thanks! :-) ---- Bye, Roland -- __ . . __ (o.\ \/ /.o) roland.mainz@nrubsig.org \__\/\/__/ MPEG specialist, C&&JAVA&&Sun&&Unix programmer /O /==\ O\ TEL +49 641 7950090 (;O/ \/ \O;) From don.cragun@Sun.COM Wed Oct 18 19:07:19 2006 Received: from spartan.SFBay.Sun.COM (spartan.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.226.64]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k9J27I1B026445 for ; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 19:07:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from spartan.SFBay.Sun.COM (spartan.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.226.64]) by spartan.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with SMTP id k9J27Ivm008664; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 19:07:18 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <200610190207.k9J27Ivm008664@spartan.SFBay.Sun.COM> Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 19:07:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Don Cragun Reply-To: Don Cragun Subject: Re: /etc/ksh.kshrc forksh93[PSARC/2006/587 Timeout: 10/24/2006] To: PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com Cc: ksh93-integration-discuss@opensolaris.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-MD5: tMA299MvLj1OhrpfVG67MA== X-Mailer: dtmail 1.3.0 @(#)CDE Version 1.5.5 SunOS 5.9 sun4u sparc Status: RO Content-Length: 222 This case was approved during this afternoon's PSARC meeting. The proposal.final file in the case's materials directory has been added to reflect changes made during the discussions surrounding this case. Cheers, Don From roland.mainz@nrubsig.org Wed Oct 18 19:10:04 2006 Received: from sfbaymail1sca.SFBay.Sun.COM (sfbaymail1sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.154.35]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k9J2A4wd026468 for ; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 19:10:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Sun.COM [192.18.98.36]) by sfbaymail1sca.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id k9J2A4nK016704 for ; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 19:10:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay11.sun.com (relay11.sun.com [217.140.40.14] (may be forged)) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k9J2A3le004679 for ; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 20:10:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mms12es.sun.com ([160.41.223.34] [160.41.223.34]) by relay11.sun.com with ESMTP for PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 02:10:02 Z Received: from relay11.sun.com (relay11.sun.com [217.140.40.14]) by mms12es.sun.com with ESMTP for PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 02:10:02 Z Received: from jupiterb48.nrubsig.org ([84.58.228.38] [84.58.228.38]) by relay11.sun.com with ESMTP for PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 02:10:02 Z Received: from nrubsig.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by jupiterb48.nrubsig.org (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id k9J29pTF013103; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 04:09:52 +0200 (CEST) Sender: gisburn@jupiterb48.nrubsig.org Message-Id: <4536DE6F.9764F623@nrubsig.org> Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 04:09:51 +0200 From: Roland Mainz X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.11 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Korn Shell 93 integration/migration project discussion CC: James Carlson , PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com Subject: Re: [ksh93-integration-discuss] Re: /etc/ksh.kshrc forksh93[PSARC/2006/587 Timeout: 10/24/2006] References: <200610180510.k9I5AOEG130832@jurassic.eng.sun.com> <200610180705.k9I75ueT008121@vaticaan.holland.sun.com> <4535DF49.2070105@sun.com> <17718.8697.69856.365527@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Content-Length: 1640 Josh Hurst wrote: > On 10/18/06, James Carlson wrote: > > Josh Hurst writes: > > > Unfortunately I have to add a general note here: > > > > Please direct the flames at /dev/null. They are of no use here. > Please understand that I am trying to start a generalised discussion > whether all this bureaucracy is REQUIRED. No other Open Source project > requires this kind of excessive bureaucracy overhead. I disagree. For example Mozilla.org passes all patches through: 1) Review (done by anyone who feels that he can do a detailed review, usually contributors who wrote lots of patches for the same component in the past) 2) Superreview (done by a fixed list of engineers who do superreviews) 3) Module-owner approval [optional] 4) Approval by drivers@mozilla.org [when the tree is under freeze or you'd like to commit to a branch which is under control by drivers@mozilla.org] Additionally you have more complicitated layers between these four items, sometimes patches/RFEs/bugfixes are stuck becase the module owner, reviewer, supereviewer or drivers@mozilla.org don't like the change or choose to ignore it (for example the "famous" RFE to get MNG support included (https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=18574) is a good example how things at Mozilla.org are going wrong right now...) ... and that are issues which can quickly generate email traffic far beyond of what we had during the ksh93-integration project... ---- Bye, Roland -- __ . . __ (o.\ \/ /.o) roland.mainz@nrubsig.org \__\/\/__/ MPEG specialist, C&&JAVA&&Sun&&Unix programmer /O /==\ O\ TEL +49 641 7950090 (;O/ \/ \O;) From roland.mainz@nrubsig.org Wed Oct 18 19:27:00 2006 Received: from sfbaymail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sfbaymail2sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.42]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k9J2R08f026758 for ; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 19:27:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Sun.COM [192.18.98.31]) by sfbaymail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.10/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id k9J2QxnY023580 for ; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 19:26:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay12.sun.com (relay12.sun.com [217.140.40.34] (may be forged)) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k9J2QwOW015087 for ; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 20:26:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mms12es.sun.com ([160.41.223.34] [160.41.223.34]) by relay12.sun.com with ESMTP for PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 02:26:58 Z Received: from relay13.sun.com (relay13.sun.com [217.140.40.54]) by mms12es.sun.com with ESMTP for PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 02:26:57 Z Received: from jupiterb48.nrubsig.org ([84.58.228.38] [84.58.228.38]) by relay13.sun.com with ESMTP for PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 02:26:57 Z Received: from nrubsig.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by jupiterb48.nrubsig.org (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id k9J2QpmX013109; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 04:26:51 +0200 (CEST) Sender: gisburn@jupiterb48.nrubsig.org Message-Id: <4536E26B.DFA1FE11@nrubsig.org> Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 04:26:51 +0200 From: Roland Mainz X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.11 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Korn Shell 93 integration/migration project discussion CC: PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com Subject: Re: [ksh93-integration-discuss] Re: /etc/ksh.kshrc forksh93[PSARC/2006/587 Timeout: 10/24/2006] References: <200610180510.k9I5AOEG130832@jurassic.eng.sun.com> <200610180705.k9I75ueT008121@vaticaan.holland.sun.com> <4535DF49.2070105@sun.com> <200610181258.k9ICwnqR012628@vaticaan.holland.sun.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Content-Length: 3164 Casper.Dik@Sun.COM wrote: [snip] > In the particular case of /etc/ksh.kshrc, we have several reasons for these > discussions: > > - we introduce a file which is always read by ksh Minor correction: Is is read by all interactive ksh93 shell sessions. > - nice for system administrators, so this is good : Yes, yes ... :-) > - is it a pathname specific to Solaris or is it common? It is used on Linux and other platforms, too. Originally ksh93 had this as a compile-time option which checked whether the underlying build machine has a /etc/ksh.kshrc or /etc/bash.bashrc file installed and then enabled the support for /etc/ksh.kshrc - but our Makefile system unconditionally enables support for /etc/ksh.kshrc > - this file changes the default editing setting to gmacs, but > raises valid questions like: > - does this override $EDITOR or $VISUAL? No, because the shell code in /etc/ksh.kshrc checks whether any editor-related flag is turned-on or not. Only if all of these flags are "off" the "gmacs" editor mode is enabled. > - does it override user's $ENV or ~/.profile or ~/.kshrc settings? No, because enabling an editor mode in /etc/profile or ~/.profile will set a flag and then the fallback code in /etc/ksh.kshrc will not be used (see above) and any settings in ~/.kshrc are sourced after /etc/ksh.kshrc and therefore will wallpaper over anything we set in /etc/.ksh.kshrc > - is this a sensible default (clearly there's a disagreement > some (including me) think so, others such as jek3 do not; What do you mean with "sensible default" ? > - is it a sensible way to implement the default? > - is it how the default is implemented elsewhere? At least SuSE Liunx unconditionally sets an editor mode in /etc/ksh.kshrc and any user settings have to be done in ~/.kshrc > - since this file is supposed to be editable by the administrator > what is the proposed patch/upgrade policy? > > (for /etc/profile we use a class action edit script; > for /etc/.login, we just deliver the new file as /etc/.login.new) The current solution we use in the ksh93-integration prototype002/003 codebase is to rename the file on updates and replace it with the one from the newer version. That is not prefect but avoids that any content is lost and allows us to deliver another missing item later (I am referring to the "multiline" option (which allows that strings which are longer than one terminal line can be edited in multiple terminal lines instead of the "one line scrolling string" used in ksh88) which isn't turned on yet because we have trouble with the 64bit shells... sometimes. Once I've killed the problem we may want to enable this option in /etc/ksh.kshrc, too (not this case, not this case, not... I just trying to explain why I didn't choose the solution for "/etc/.login" (we can change that later...))). ---- Bye, Roland -- __ . . __ (o.\ \/ /.o) roland.mainz@nrubsig.org \__\/\/__/ MPEG specialist, C&&JAVA&&Sun&&Unix programmer /O /==\ O\ TEL +49 641 7950090 (;O/ \/ \O;) From Joseph.Kowalski@eng.sun.com Wed Oct 18 19:38:30 2006 Received: from jurassic.eng.sun.com (jurassic.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.224.130]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k9J2cUGX026829 for ; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 19:38:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hawaiian-sun (vpn-129-150-12-95.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.12.95]) by jurassic.eng.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with SMTP id k9J2cNip211614; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 19:38:28 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <200610190238.k9J2cNip211614@jurassic.eng.sun.com> Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 16:38:17 -1000 (HST) From: Joseph Kowalski Reply-To: Joseph Kowalski Subject: Re: /etc/ksh.kshrc for ksh93[PSARC/2006/587 Timeout: 10/24/2006] To: PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com, don.cragun@sun.com Cc: ksh93-integration-discuss@opensolaris.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-MD5: gyhqpP5EICuh6794vVdkIw== X-Mailer: dtmail 1.3.0 @(#)CDE Version 1.7_20 SunOS 5.11 i86pc i386 Status: RO Content-Length: 723 > From: Don Cragun ... > C. If (or when) a case comes forward to replace one or more of > /sbin/sh, /usr/bin/sh, /usr/bin/ksh, and /usr/xpg4/bin/sh with > ksh93 we will need to discuss this again as a compatibility > issue. That discussion should not sidetrack this case. Note > that /sbin/sh and /usr/bin/sh do not currently provide any > command line editing options. I guess I have to disagree here. All along the project team has expressed a desire for ksh93 to become the one true shell. I believe it is irresponsible to plant landmines along the project team's roadmap. Its seems very interesting to me that the project team seems to be the one planting the mines. 8^) - jek3 From roland.mainz@nrubsig.org Wed Oct 18 19:38:32 2006 Received: from sfbaymail1sca.SFBay.Sun.COM (sfbaymail1sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.154.35]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k9J2cWuF026833 for ; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 19:38:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Sun.COM [192.18.98.31]) by sfbaymail1sca.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id k9J2cVKr025408 for ; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 19:38:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay2.sun.com (relay2.sun.com [150.143.103.24] (may be forged)) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k9J2YYGK023534 for ; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 20:38:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mms0aes.sun.com ([150.143.104.194] [150.143.104.194]) by relay2.sun.com with ESMTP; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 02:38:31 Z Received: from relay02i.sun.com ([150.143.60.72] [150.143.60.72]) by mms0aes.sun.com with ESMTP; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 02:38:30 Z Received: from jupiterb48.nrubsig.org ([84.58.228.38] [84.58.228.38]) by relay0i.sun.com with ESMTP; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 02:38:29 Z Received: from nrubsig.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by jupiterb48.nrubsig.org (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id k9J2cLBp013114; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 04:38:22 +0200 (CEST) Sender: gisburn@jupiterb48.nrubsig.org Message-Id: <4536E51D.4C0C5B6@nrubsig.org> Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 04:38:21 +0200 From: Roland Mainz X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.11 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Don Cragun , Korn Shell 93 integration/migration project discussion CC: PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com, gsf@research.att.com Subject: Re: [ksh93-integration-discuss] Re: /etc/ksh.kshrc forksh93[PSARC/2006/587 Timeout: 10/24/2006] References: <200610181626.k9IGQDYm006988@spartan.SFBay.Sun.COM> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Content-Length: 2033 Don Cragun wrote: > > >Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 11:12:45 -0400 (EDT) > >From: Glenn Fowler > ... ... ... > > > >for newbie guidance why not provide a time honored, commented default .profile > >"# this sets the default edit mode to emacs ..." > >"ENV=$HOME/feel-like-bash-and-linux.sh # ..." > > > > Hi Glenn, > > One reason for not changing .profile in this case is that doing so > could change the behavior of /usr/bin/ksh and /usr/xpg4/bin/sh as well > as providing a default editing mode for /usr/bin/ksh93. Minor nit: Updating /etc/profile would not be enougth. /etc/profile is for login shells and only affects interactive non-login shells via passing it's environment to the child processes. /etc/ksh.kshrc and ~/.kshrc are slightly different - they affect all interactive shell sessions, regardless whether they are login shells or not. For example if a user has /usr/bin/bash as login shell he/she may get bash-specific defaults which may not be usefull for an interactive ksh session. > Setting a > default (when an editing mode has not otherwise been established) in > /etc/ksh.kshrc only affects /usr/bin/ksh93 users. Another problem is that updating files in user's homedirs is tricky - for example I would have to change a few 10000 user accounts and AFAIK other sites have far more users. This is why like the introduction of /etc/ksh.kshrc - it provides a system-wide way to provide (usefull) defaults without having to setup a matching config file for each single user (and then later deal with the nightmares of keeping them in sync and uptodate - which may be tricky when the site uses things like SecureNFS (e.g. NFS with SecureRPC or Kerberos5 auth.) or has the policy that admins are not allowed to change any content under /home/${LOGNAME}/ without explicit and written permission by it's users). ---- Bye, Roland -- __ . . __ (o.\ \/ /.o) roland.mainz@nrubsig.org \__\/\/__/ MPEG specialist, C&&JAVA&&Sun&&Unix programmer /O /==\ O\ TEL +49 641 7950090 (;O/ \/ \O;) From roland.mainz@nrubsig.org Wed Oct 18 19:54:25 2006 Received: from sfbaymail1sca.SFBay.Sun.COM (sfbaymail1sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.154.35]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k9J2sPTi027579 for ; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 19:54:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Sun.COM [192.18.98.31]) by sfbaymail1sca.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id k9J2sOSH029278 for ; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 19:54:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay23.sun.com (relay23.sun.com [192.12.251.54] (may be forged)) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k9J2sOo5007289 for ; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 20:54:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mms25es.sun.com ([150.143.232.94] [150.143.232.94]) by relay23.sun.com with ESMTP; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 02:54:23 Z Received: from relay21.sun.com (relay21.sun.com [192.12.251.14]) by mms25es.sun.com with ESMTP; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 02:54:23 Z Received: from jupiterb48.nrubsig.org ([84.58.228.38] [84.58.228.38]) by relay21.sun.com with ESMTP; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 02:54:23 Z Received: from nrubsig.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by jupiterb48.nrubsig.org (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id k9J2sGH4013120; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 04:54:17 +0200 (CEST) Sender: gisburn@jupiterb48.nrubsig.org Message-Id: <4536E8D8.BD2B9ADB@nrubsig.org> Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 04:54:16 +0200 From: Roland Mainz Reply-To: OpenSolaris Shell discussions X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.11 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dan Price , OpenSolaris Shell discussions CC: Joseph Kowalski , ksh93-integration-discuss@opensolaris.org, don.cragun@sun.com, PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com Subject: Unified interactive shell configuration / was: Re: [ksh93-integration-discuss] Re: /etc/ksh.kshrc for ksh93[PSARC/2006/587 Timeout: 10/24/2006] References: <200610180145.k9I1j8Ei121665@jurassic.eng.sun.com> <20061018175500.GP13191@eng.sun.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Content-Length: 1653 Dan Price wrote: [snip] > My thought is that we should revamp all of the interactive shell defaults > to have consistent (across the shells) and excellent default interactive > settings, with useful prompts and default behaviors whereever possible. > And yes, we should do so judiciously, with all due deliberation. Would > you defend: > > bash-3.00$ (bash) > > or > > > (tcsh) > > as a reasonable default prompt for a shell suitable for an interactive > user? "bash-3.00$" is the kind of crapola we wind up with when we follow > the policy of "none" (bash and tcsh shown, respectively). I agree that an unified and plugable configuration for the shells would be nice... for example (SuSE) Linux links /etc/ksh.kshrc to /etc/bash.bashrc and the adds some "if;then;fi"-statements to handle the differences between the shells (well, I would prefer to make /etc/bash.bashrc a link to /etc/ksh.kshrc ... :-) ) ... ... and Linux has /etc/profile.d/ which contains small shell script fragments sourced by the matching shells as part of the /etc/profile script. I think we should either adopt this or work together with SuSE+LSB to create something like /etc/env.d/ (which should work similar as /etc/profile.d/ but covers at least: - login shell startup files - interactive shell startup scripts - logout scripts ) ... ---- Bye, Roland P.S.: I've set the Reply-To: header to shell-discuss@opensolaris.org since this is the list where this should be discussed... -- __ . . __ (o.\ \/ /.o) roland.mainz@nrubsig.org \__\/\/__/ MPEG specialist, C&&JAVA&&Sun&&Unix programmer /O /==\ O\ TEL +49 641 7950090 (;O/ \/ \O;) From dp@snowdog.eng.sun.com Wed Oct 18 19:59:09 2006 Received: from snowdog.eng.sun.com (snowdog.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.228.213]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k9J2x9xQ027834 for ; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 19:59:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from snowdog.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by snowdog.eng.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7) with ESMTP id k9J2x8ZR016192; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 19:59:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from dp@localhost) by snowdog.eng.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/Submit) id k9J2x79J016191; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 19:59:07 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 19:59:07 -0700 From: Dan Price To: OpenSolaris Shell discussions Cc: Joseph Kowalski , ksh93-integration-discuss@opensolaris.org, don.cragun@sun.com, PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com Subject: Re: Unified interactive shell configuration / was: Re: [ksh93-integration-discuss] Re: /etc/ksh.kshrc for ksh93[PSARC/2006/587 Timeout: 10/24/2006] Message-ID: <20061019025907.GR28774@eng.sun.com> References: <200610180145.k9I1j8Ei121665@jurassic.eng.sun.com> <20061018175500.GP13191@eng.sun.com> <4536E8D8.BD2B9ADB@nrubsig.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4536E8D8.BD2B9ADB@nrubsig.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i Status: RO Content-Length: 1264 On Thu 19 Oct 2006 at 04:54AM, Roland Mainz wrote: > Dan Price wrote: > [snip] > > My thought is that we should revamp all of the interactive shell defaults > > to have consistent (across the shells) and excellent default interactive > > settings, with useful prompts and default behaviors whereever possible. > > And yes, we should do so judiciously, with all due deliberation. Would > > you defend: > > > > bash-3.00$ (bash) > > > > or > > > > > (tcsh) > > > > as a reasonable default prompt for a shell suitable for an interactive > > user? "bash-3.00$" is the kind of crapola we wind up with when we follow > > the policy of "none" (bash and tcsh shown, respectively). > > I agree that an unified and plugable configuration for the shells would I just want to be clear about what we're agreeing to. I think you've might have changed my comment about usability and consistency into "unified configuration"-- I just want the shells to behave (defauly prompts, default editing modes) roughly the same. Somehow implementing it all as a single file isn't very interesting to me. I mean, feel free, but I don't personally care either way. -dp -- Daniel Price - Solaris Kernel Engineering - dp@eng.sun.com - blogs.sun.com/dp From Joseph.Kowalski@eng.sun.com Wed Oct 18 20:01:28 2006 Received: from jurassic.eng.sun.com (jurassic.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.106.31]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k9J31SNN027855 for ; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 20:01:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hawaiian-sun (vpn-129-150-12-95.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.12.95]) by jurassic.eng.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with SMTP id k9J31L21218117; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 20:01:27 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <200610190301.k9J31L21218117@jurassic.eng.sun.com> Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 17:01:19 -1000 (HST) From: Joseph Kowalski Reply-To: Joseph Kowalski Subject: Re: /etc/ksh.kshrc forksh93[PSARC/2006/587 Timeout: 10/24/2006] To: PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com, don.cragun@sun.com Cc: ksh93-integration-discuss@opensolaris.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-MD5: GWEQKRTWqKTh3qhM2hvH8Q== X-Mailer: dtmail 1.3.0 @(#)CDE Version 1.7_20 SunOS 5.11 i86pc i386 Status: RO Content-Length: 1317 > This case was approved during this afternoon's PSARC meeting. The > proposal.final file in the case's materials directory has been added > to reflect changes made during the discussions surrounding this case. No fair! I had no connection! Actually, I'm fine with this. I'd figured out that my preference for no default was certainly in the minority and Don, just a few messages ago said: No. He would not. There is a difference between having a configuration file which can be adjusted by your system administrator to set a default editing mode (OK according to the standard), and having ksh93 always set a default editing mode even if no configuration files are present on the system (not allowed by the standard). The standard, however, only talks about what happens when the shell is named "sh"; the standard says nothing about a shell named "ksh93". This case is about "ksh93"; not "sh". I hadn't caught the significance of the newance about how the 'default' was set. (And yes, I know about what names are defined by the standard. My mail used other names because I'm pretty sure we will progress incrementally along that sequence of names.) Anyway, I'm bummed because I was about to graciously remove my objection and now I'm denied that chance... 8^) - jek3 From casper@holland.sun.com Thu Oct 19 08:30:13 2006 Received: from sunnl.holland.sun.com (sunnl.Holland.Sun.COM [129.159.201.1]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k9JFUCf5010453 for ; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 08:30:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vaticaan.holland.sun.com (vaticaan [129.159.201.10]) by sunnl.holland.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id k9JFU88M002977; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 17:30:08 +0200 (MEST) Received: from holland (casper@room101 [129.159.201.52]) by vaticaan.holland.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k9JFU7O7012900; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 17:30:07 +0200 (MEST) Message-Id: <200610191530.k9JFU7O7012900@vaticaan.holland.sun.com> From: Casper.Dik@sun.com To: Korn Shell 93 integration/migration project discussion cc: John.Plocher@sun.com, ksh93-integration-discussion@opensolaris.org, Don Cragun , PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com Subject: Re: [ksh93-integration-discuss] Re: /etc/ksh.kshrc for ksh93 [PSARC/2006/587 Timeout: 10/24/2006] In-Reply-To: <453635EC.2080409@Sun.COM> References: <200610171715.k9HHF708004950@spartan.SFBay.Sun.COM> <453515AE.5080208@sun.com> <45353D6C.40902@sun.com> <453635EC.2080409@Sun.COM> Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 17:30:07 +0200 Sender: casper@holland.sun.com Status: RO Content-Length: 657 >> /etc/suid_profile > >Where do you get this one from ? I don't see in on my snv_50 Solaris >system. Straight from the manual page: -p Disables processing of the $HOME/.profile file and uses the file /etc/suid_profile instead of the ENV file. This mode is on whenever the effective uid is not equal to the real uid, or when the effective gid is not equal to the real gid. Turning this off causes the effective uid and gid to be set to the real uid and gid. (It doesn't exist by default but is documented) Casper From Darren.Moffat@Sun.COM Thu Oct 19 08:43:15 2006 Received: from sfbaymail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sfbaymail2sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.42]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k9JFhFoR010658 for ; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 08:43:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com (gmpes-gis-mail-2.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.42.6]) by sfbaymail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.10/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id k9JFhEqE018350 for ; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 08:43:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d1-emea-10.sun.com ([192.18.2.120]) by gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k9JFh8n2019386 for ; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 16:43:09 +0100 (BST) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-emea-10.sun.com by d1-emea-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0J7E00J013N3JY00@d1-emea-10.sun.com> (original mail from Darren.Moffat@Sun.COM) for PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 16:43:08 +0100 (BST) Received: from [129.156.173.21] by d1-emea-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0J7E00II23NVFF20@d1-emea-10.sun.com>; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 16:43:08 +0100 (BST) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 16:43:07 +0100 From: Darren J Moffat Subject: Re: [ksh93-integration-discuss] Re: /etc/ksh.kshrc for ksh93 [PSARC/2006/587 Timeout: 10/24/2006] In-reply-to: <200610191530.k9JFU7O7012900@vaticaan.holland.sun.com> Sender: Darren.Moffat@Sun.COM To: Casper.Dik@Sun.COM Cc: Korn Shell 93 integration/migration project discussion , John.Plocher@Sun.COM, ksh93-integration-discussion@opensolaris.org, Don Cragun , PSARC-EXT@sac.sfbay.sun.com Message-id: <45379D0B.6000900@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <200610171715.k9HHF708004950@spartan.SFBay.Sun.COM> <453515AE.5080208@sun.com> <45353D6C.40902@sun.com> <453635EC.2080409@Sun.COM> <200610191530.k9JFU7O7012900@vaticaan.holland.sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060912) Status: RO Content-Length: 299 Casper.Dik@Sun.COM wrote: >>> /etc/suid_profile >> Where do you get this one from ? I don't see in on my snv_50 Solaris >> system. > > Straight from the manual page: ksh(1) man page, which is why I couldn't find it at first, silly me was looking at login(1) and su(1). -- Darren J Moffat From roland.mainz@nrubsig.org Wed May 9 07:45:46 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l49EjjDj010894 for ; Wed, 9 May 2007 07:45:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l49EiYKW001544; Wed, 9 May 2007 15:44:39 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JHS000093MES800@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 09 May 2007 07:44:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.98.43]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JHS00HDZ3MDUUA0@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 09 May 2007 07:44:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay1.sun.com (relay1.sun.com [150.143.103.14] (may be forged)) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l49EZBiW023639; Wed, 09 May 2007 14:44:36 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mms03es.sun.com ([150.143.104.54] [150.143.104.54]) by relay1.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-89558; Wed, 09 May 2007 14:44:02 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay4.sun.com (relay4.sun.com [150.143.103.74]) by mms03es.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-745169; Wed, 09 May 2007 14:44:02 +0000 (Z) Received: from mail-in-01.arcor-online.net ([151.189.21.41] [151.189.21.41]) by relay4.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-661570; Wed, 09 May 2007 14:44:01 +0000 (Z) Received: from mail-in-01-z2.arcor-online.net (mail-in-06-z2.arcor-online.net [151.189.8.18]) by mail-in-01.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A07015B5A7; Wed, 09 May 2007 16:44:01 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mail-in-07.arcor-online.net (mail-in-07.arcor-online.net [151.189.21.47]) by mail-in-01-z2.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D7185BD7A; Wed, 09 May 2007 16:44:01 +0200 (CEST) Received: from jupiterb48.nrubsig.org (dslb-084-058-249-186.pools.arcor-ip.net [84.58.249.186]) by mail-in-07.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D207C28ABA3; Wed, 09 May 2007 16:44:00 +0200 (CEST) Received: from nrubsig.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by jupiterb48.nrubsig.org (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l49EhvZR002807; Wed, 09 May 2007 16:43:58 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 16:43:57 +0200 From: Roland Mainz Subject: Overturning PSARC 2006/587 ? / was: Re: [shell-discuss] Re: PSARCFastTrack[PSARC/2007/233]:Defaultshellenvironment:machine ksh93/backenvironment Sender: gisburn@jupiterb48.nrubsig.org To: James Carlson Cc: Shells discussion , PSARC-EXT@sun.com, Charles DeBardeleben , David.Comay@sun.com Message-id: <4641DE2D.812C647B@nrubsig.org> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.11 sun4u) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en X-Priority: 2 (High) X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <462F7AEA.7060609@Sun.COM> <4638C074.CD692B71@nrubsig.org> <4638FBBC.2050007@sun.com> <463BF9AD.7B797D50@nrubsig.org> <200705050932.l459W1jn008092@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> <463c5279.nvAo/H6FzWkEfTNH%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <463F6800.1000705@sun.com> <4641A879.8A76559A@nrubsig.org> <200705091113.l49BD0Qv064672@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> <4641BC71.FBD54D0C@nrubsig.org> <17985.50018.212537.51647@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4641D1E5.8407AFD2@nrubsig.org> <17985.56344.958020.868738@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Status: RO Content-Length: 780 James Carlson wrote: > Roland Mainz writes: [snip] > 2006/587 was about a new default for the new-to-be-added ksh93 itself. > I see this as different because it's a default for _everything_. > > But you're right that we could just overturn 2006/587 while we're at > it. Erm... fully stop please. In that case I am going to _revoke_ this case. Much time and tears were invested in the usuablity work which was finally enabled by the settings defined PSARC 2006/587 (aiming at getting ksh93's usuablity in sync with bash3) and undoing that case would undo much of the usuabilty work done there. ---- Bye, Roland -- __ . . __ (o.\ \/ /.o) roland.mainz@nrubsig.org \__\/\/__/ MPEG specialist, C&&JAVA&&Sun&&Unix programmer /O /==\ O\ TEL +49 641 7950090 (;O/ \/ \O;)