From sch@rosseau.sfbay.sun.com Mon Jan 22 12:02:52 2007 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0MK2qMQ026439 for ; Mon, 22 Jan 2007 12:02:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0MK2nW6010358 for <@sunmail1brm.central.sun.com:PSARC-EXT@sun.com>; Mon, 22 Jan 2007 12:02:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCA00K0BD0RL200@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Mon, 22 Jan 2007 13:02:51 -0700 (MST) Received: from sfbaymail2sca.sfbay.sun.com ([129.145.155.42]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCA00DQ3D0Q80D0@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Mon, 22 Jan 2007 13:02:51 -0700 (MST) Received: from rosseau.sfbay.sun.com (rosseau.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.228.252]) by sfbaymail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.10/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0MK2oi4007574 for ; Mon, 22 Jan 2007 12:02:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from rosseau.sfbay.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rosseau.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l0MK2o0L025954; Mon, 22 Jan 2007 12:02:50 -0800 (PST) Received: (from sch@localhost) by rosseau.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/Submit) id l0MK2oxP025953; Mon, 22 Jan 2007 12:02:50 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 12:02:50 -0800 From: Stephen Hahn Subject: 2007/047 /usr/gnu To: PSARC-EXT@sun.com Cc: Bart Smaalders Message-id: <20070122200249.GA25931@eng.sun.com> Organization: Solaris Kernel Development; Sun Microsystems, Inc. MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.7i Status: RO Content-Length: 10480 I am sponsoring the following case for Bart, Rainer, and myself. It seeks Minor release binding, and is set to time out on 31 January. The case has been built up by discussion in the Desktop and Tools communities, and also in the SFW NV project. Past threads started at http://www.opensolaris.org/jive/thread.jspa?threadID=20197 and http://www.opensolaris.org/jive/thread.jspa?threadID=8631 http://www.opensolaris.org/jive/thread.jspa?threadID=8486 http://www.opensolaris.org/jive/thread.jspa?threadID=8403 http://www.opensolaris.org/jive/thread.jspa?threadID=8352 Draft manual page and command synopses appendix to follow. Thanks Stephen ---- PSARC/2007/047 /usr/gnu Stephen Hahn (sch@sun.com), Rainer Orth (ro@techfak.uni-bielefeld.de), and Bart Smaalders (barts@eng.sun.com) ident "$Hg: d-usr-gnu-fast-track.txt f86d9ec9092d 2007/01/22 11:52:13 -0800 $ SMI" 1. Summary A new directory hierarchy, to contain otherwise-name-conflicting GNU utilities under their original names, is proposed. A guideline for the provision of 'g'-prefixed variants in /usr/bin is also presented. This case seeks Minor release binding. 2. Discussion In an attempt to provide a more complete offering for software developers on OpenSolaris distributions (as well as more general goals of including useful software), this case proposes the introduction of /usr/gnu as a location for alternate implementations of standard tools produced by the GNU project. This case supplements PSARC/2005/185, "Enabling serendipitous discovery" [1]. The goals of the two cases are aligned; this case may propose refinements to the handling of specific scenarios. For the purposes of determining candidates for the GNU environment, the GNU packages of the FSF/UNESCO Free Software Directory are considered the authoritative list [2]. 2.1. Expected use Much like the use of the XPG4 [3], XPG6 [4], and SunOS/BSD compatibility environments, the expected use of the /usr/gnu environment is to prefer its binary components to the system defaults, via a setting like PATH=/usr/gnu/bin:...:/usr/bin Traditionally, the commands environments are incomplete: they do not provide entries for each and every command available in /usr/bin. In the past, the environments have also been proper subsets of the system default commands: there are no commands that are not also present in the system's default command environment. In the case that an environment composed of the non-conflicting GNU components plus the historical variants is desired, PATH=/usr/bin:... is sufficient. The manual page path will be managed similarly. (Use of the per-section ordering support man(1) allows in MANPATH was considered, but is not suitable for heterogeneous environments.) Extended discussion led to an aesthetic preference for a complete environment, in which all components of the installed upstream package were in their normal locations within /usr/gnu. (We return to this point briefly in Section 2.5.) Although an environment could be further modified to be a full alternative commands environment, that aspect is left to a future case. 2.2. Reliance on /usr/gnu/bin utilities The individual utilities' stability levels dictate their appropriateness for use by other components. 2.3. Utility parity requirements PSARC, in its opinion for PSARC/2005/683 [5 - 6], made policy a technical requirement that XPG4 and XPG6 extensions be also made available in the /usr/bin variant of the affected utility. This policy is not a requirement for the /usr/gnu environment; project teams may choose to enhance partially or completely the /usr/bin variant as part of providing a /usr/gnu utility. (As an aside, project teams stuck on replacement of, enhancement of, or providing an additional variant for a particular command should recognize that their decision may have architectural aspects--shared components and comparative stabilites, for example--but is primarily an economic one. For instance, if an upstream variant is abandoned or undergoing remarkable change, then it is unlikely to have economic advantages over enhancing a known version.) 2.4. 'g' Prefixing Historically, introduction of GNU utilities into /usr/bin has been done with a 'g' character prefixed to the utility name. This proposal amends this practice: the 'g'-prefixed variant should be provided if already introduced. In cases where another operating system has provided a 'g'-prefixed variant, the project team introducing an otherwise-name-conflicting GNU component may choose to also provide one; otherwise, additional 'g'-prefixed components in /usr/bin (or any other path) are discouraged. GNU components that do not conflict with existing or anticipated components in the system's default commands environment should not be placed in /usr/gnu, and do not require 'g'-prefixing. Exceptions should reference specific examples--other operating systems, dependent software, etc.--supporting the common use or inclusion of the 'g'-prefixed name. Both 'g'-prefixed and non-conflicting interfaces will provide access via /usr/share/man to their manual pages. (Such access may be implemented via symbolic links, for example.) 2.5. Library components Although the primary focus of this case is the introduction of /usr/gnu for commands components, we can also make recommendations for the provision of library components under /usr/gnu. Similar to the commands, conflicting libraries should be placed in /usr/gnu/lib. In addition, non-conflicting libraries that depend on a conflicting library should also be placed only in /usr/gnu/lib. Otherwise, non-conflicting libraries should be placed in /usr/gnu/lib, with appropriate symbolic links in the appropriate /usr/lib subdirectories. At this point, it is recommended that components that introduce a "libexec" directory [7] leave that directory under the /usr/gnu hierarchy. Once a non-GNU component introduces /usr/libexec, this recommendation can be reviewed. 2.6. Other filesystem locations With the introduction of zones, customizable directories must be kept out of /usr to make sparse zones practical. This case reserves /etc/gnu and /var/gnu and their subdirectories as locations for customizable files required by the tools present in the environment, but does not mandate their introduction until an explicit consumer is proposed. Since the GNU components, while the primary sources, are not the sole sources of Info format documentation, and due to the nature of the Info "dir" file, the Info files shall be installed in /usr/share/info. This directory and /usr/gnu/share/info are expected to be equivalent--separated sets of Info documents (GNU components alone and the complete Info set) are not required by this proposal. Otherwise, and with the exception of the 'g'-prefixed components and the recommendation on library components above, the /usr/gnu hierarchy will be populated in accordance with the GNU coding standards [7]. (The specific exceptions are that the localstatedir and sharedstatedir settings will be "/var/gnu" and "/var/gnu/com", respectively, and the sysconfdir will be "/etc/gnu".) The most common directories are given in the Interface Table in Section 3. 2.7. Manual page modifications Because the commands involved may change at distinctly different rates than the Single Unix specification, it seems prudent to modify the manual pages of GNU components separately from the manual page of a conflicting base components. (In contrast, OpenSolaris manual pages have unified base and XPG4/XPG6 variants into a single page.) On each manual page associated with a conflicting command, a sentence similar to the following will be added to the "NOTES" section: The FSF/GNU implementation of the 'ls' command can be found at /usr/gnu/bin/ls. (See gnu(5) for additional details on FSF/GNU commands.) The "SEE ALSO" section will minimally point to gnu(5). 2.8. Packaging and availability In general, project teams are strongly encouraged to match a package boundary to the upstream source boundary. By default, these new packages should be made available in either the User or Developer metacluster, to increase the likelihood of their availability in typical installations. 2.9. Future possibilities One possible future direction is to extract the legacy tools from /usr/{bin,sbin} and provide them in a new, stable path like /usr/sunos/{bin,sbin}. The selection of the top-level /usr components can then be made a configurable aspect of the system, via one or more mechanisms. This change might also involve the provision of complete commands environments, as mentioned in Section 2.1. 3. Interfaces /usr/share/info Directory Committed /usr/gnu Directory hierarchy Committed /bin /sbin /include /lib /libexec /share /share/info /share/man /etc/gnu Directory hierarchy Committed /var/gnu Directory hierarchy Committed /com 4. References [1] B. Smaalders, PSARC/2005/185: Enabling serendipitous discovery, 2005. [2] Free Software Foundation, FSF/UNESCO Free Software Directory, "All GNU Packages", 2006 (http://directory.fsf.org/GNU/). [3] J. Tornatore, PSARC/1994/161: XCU4 Conformance (XPG4 Commands/Utilities component), 1994. [4] J. Farley, PSARC/2003/418 SUSv3 Project Update, 2003. [5] C. Fields, PSARC/2005/683: Add /usr/xpg4/bin/crontab and /usr/xpg6/bin/crontab, 2005. [6] B. Sommerfeld et al, PSARC/2005/683 Opinion, 2005. [7] Free Software Foundation, GNU Coding Standards, 2006 (http://www.gnu.org/prep/standards/standards.html#Directory-Variables). -- Stephen Hahn, PhD Solaris Kernel Development, Sun Microsystems stephen.hahn@sun.com http://blogs.sun.com/sch/ From sch@rosseau.sfbay.sun.com Mon Jan 22 12:03:53 2007 Received: from sunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM (sunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.17]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0MK3rfV026456 for ; Mon, 22 Jan 2007 12:03:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.11.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0MK3q405437 for <@sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-EXT@sun.com>; Mon, 22 Jan 2007 13:03:52 -0700 (MST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCA0000DD2FYN00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Mon, 22 Jan 2007 12:03:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from sfbaymail2sca.sfbay.sun.com ([129.145.155.42]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCA009DID2EO2D0@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Mon, 22 Jan 2007 12:03:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from rosseau.sfbay.sun.com (rosseau.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.228.252]) by sfbaymail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.10/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0MK3ofl008238 for ; Mon, 22 Jan 2007 12:03:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from rosseau.sfbay.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rosseau.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l0MK3opL025975; Mon, 22 Jan 2007 12:03:50 -0800 (PST) Received: (from sch@localhost) by rosseau.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/Submit) id l0MK3oxC025974; Mon, 22 Jan 2007 12:03:50 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 12:03:50 -0800 From: Stephen Hahn Subject: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page To: PSARC-EXT@sun.com Cc: Bart Smaalders Message-id: <20070122200350.GA25957@eng.sun.com> Organization: Solaris Kernel Development; Sun Microsystems, Inc. MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.7i Status: RO Content-Length: 2713 Here's a draft manual page. - Stephen ---- Standards, Environments, and Macros gnu(5) NAME gnu - GNU commands environment DESCRIPTION Because of their wide availability across various operating environments, the FSF/UNESCO free software collection, including the well-known products of the GNU project, form a commands environment of equivalent or greater capability to those provided in the default or any of the standards compliant included with the present system. In an effort to offer a complete set of commands environments, the present system includes portions of the FSF/UNESCO free software collect under the label, "the GNU environment". This environment is accessed by prepending the directory, /usr/gnu/bin, to the executable path. Similar to the XPG4 and XPG6 environments, if the behaviour of a GNU command conflicts with the historical utility's behaviour, the historical utility remains in /usr/bin; the GNU variant is provided in /usr/gnu/bin. (In special cases, a copy of the variant, prefixed with the 'g' character, may also be present in /usr/bin. For example, /usr/gnu/bin/install is also provided as /usr/bin/ginstall.) In cases where no historical equivalent was previously provided, the GNU command will be present in both /usr/bin and /usr/gnu/bin. An application that wants to use GNU utility variants in preference to all other utility variants on the system must set the PATH (sh(1), ksh(1), bash(1), etc.) or path (csh(1), etc.) environment variable as follows: 1. /usr/gnu/bin, 2. Remaining path components. Various permutations of the path components outlined in standards(5) are possible, including locating /usr/gnu/bin at lookup postions other than the initial position. In these cases, one or more groups of related utility variants are being preferred over other commands environments' variants. Similarly, the manual page lookup path, MANPATH, should insert the value "/usr/gnu/share/man" in the appropriate order to prefer the GNU commands reference manual pages over other implementations' versions. SEE ALSO bash(1), csh(1), ksh(1), sh(1), standards(5) Free Software Foundation, FSF/UNESCO Free Software Directory, "All GNU Packages", http://directory.fsf.org/GNU/. NOTES The FSF/UNESCO commands environment is delivered across a collection of packages. These packages may be optional in some installation scenarios. -- Stephen Hahn, PhD Solaris Kernel Development, Sun Microsystems stephen.hahn@sun.com http://blogs.sun.com/sch/ From sommerfeld@Sun.COM Mon Jan 22 14:33:09 2007 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0MMX9xC001004 for ; Mon, 22 Jan 2007 14:33:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0MMX2bM003589; Mon, 22 Jan 2007 14:33:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCA00B0VJZ8P900@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Mon, 22 Jan 2007 14:33:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from eastmail2bur.East.Sun.COM ([129.148.13.40]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCA0015JJZ8X380@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Mon, 22 Jan 2007 14:33:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from thunk.east.sun.com (thunk.East.Sun.COM [129.148.174.66]) by eastmail2bur.East.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0MMX6Il010950; Mon, 22 Jan 2007 17:33:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from [IPv6:::1] (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by thunk.east.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l0MMX6Ij028827; Mon, 22 Jan 2007 17:33:06 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 17:33:06 -0500 From: Bill Sommerfeld Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu In-reply-to: <20070122200249.GA25931@eng.sun.com> To: Stephen Hahn Cc: PSARC-EXT@Sun.COM, Bart Smaalders Message-id: <1169505186.28083.41.camel@thunk> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.8.1.1 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <20070122200249.GA25931@eng.sun.com> Status: RO Content-Length: 365 nit: > this case may propose > refinements to the handling of specific scenarios. this looks like a drafting error or temporary/interim wording. it appears that this case *does* propose some specifics for /usr/gnu I don't see enough guidance/expectation-setting regarding upgrade as newer revisions of various GNU utilities become available. - Bill From sch@rosseau.sfbay.sun.com Mon Jan 22 14:54:51 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0MMsoUL001981 for ; Mon, 22 Jan 2007 14:54:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0MMsios023700; Mon, 22 Jan 2007 22:54:49 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCA00C13KZBXS00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Mon, 22 Jan 2007 14:54:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from sfbaymail2sca.sfbay.sun.com ([129.145.155.42]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCA001XRKZ6XD90@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Mon, 22 Jan 2007 14:54:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from rosseau.sfbay.sun.com (rosseau.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.228.252]) by sfbaymail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.10/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0MMsgB7006950; Mon, 22 Jan 2007 14:54:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from rosseau.sfbay.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rosseau.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l0MMsgB2026198; Mon, 22 Jan 2007 14:54:42 -0800 (PST) Received: (from sch@localhost) by rosseau.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/Submit) id l0MMsgJQ026197; Mon, 22 Jan 2007 14:54:42 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 14:54:42 -0800 From: Stephen Hahn Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu In-reply-to: <1169505186.28083.41.camel@thunk> To: Bill Sommerfeld Cc: PSARC-EXT@sun.com, Bart Smaalders Message-id: <20070122225441.GG24874@eng.sun.com> Organization: Solaris Kernel Development; Sun Microsystems, Inc. MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <20070122200249.GA25931@eng.sun.com> <1169505186.28083.41.camel@thunk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.7i Status: RO Content-Length: 940 * Bill Sommerfeld [2007-01-22 14:33]: > nit: > > this case may propose > > refinements to the handling of specific scenarios. > > this looks like a drafting error or temporary/interim wording. > it appears that this case *does* propose some specifics for /usr/gnu It does indeed. Will amend. > I don't see enough guidance/expectation-setting regarding upgrade as > newer revisions of various GNU utilities become available. I had intended that the project teams proposing individual components would manage this by virtue of selecting stability levels for their interfaces. (The components not moving in lock step with one another, and so on.) Could you give an example question that such guidance might resolve? I'm happy to propose an initial position... Cheers Stephen -- Stephen Hahn, PhD Solaris Kernel Development, Sun Microsystems stephen.hahn@sun.com http://blogs.sun.com/sch/ From gww@eng.sun.com Tue Jan 23 22:05:23 2007 Received: from sunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM (sunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.17]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0O65Nmi016770 for ; Tue, 23 Jan 2007 22:05:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.11.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0O65Mn23260 for <@sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-EXT@sun.com>; Tue, 23 Jan 2007 23:05:22 -0700 (MST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCC00F01ZKXRS00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Tue, 23 Jan 2007 22:05:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from engmail3mpk.sfbay.Sun.COM ([129.146.11.26]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCC0066PZKWM540@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Tue, 23 Jan 2007 22:05:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from marduk.eng.sun.com (marduk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.108.224]) by engmail3mpk.sfbay.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0O65Kjv019639; Tue, 23 Jan 2007 22:05:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from marduk.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by marduk.eng.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l0O65dEs023131; Tue, 23 Jan 2007 22:05:39 -0800 (PST) Received: (from gww@localhost) by marduk.eng.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.11/Submit) id l0O65dCa023130; Tue, 23 Jan 2007 22:05:39 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 22:05:39 -0800 (PST) From: Gary Winiger Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu To: PSARC-EXT@sun.com, sch@eng.sun.com Cc: barts@eng.sun.com Message-id: <200701240605.l0O65dCa023130@marduk.eng.sun.com> Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 Status: RO Content-Length: 135 > This case seeks Minor release binding. Is there anything in this project that would preclude a patch release binding? Gary.. From gww@eng.sun.com Tue Jan 23 22:07:23 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0O67Li0016791 for ; Tue, 23 Jan 2007 22:07:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0O67IYg022278 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-EXT@sun.com>; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 14:07:20 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCC00503ZO4QC00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Tue, 23 Jan 2007 22:07:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from engmail3mpk.sfbay.Sun.COM ([129.146.11.26]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCC00FJVZO4YG40@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Tue, 23 Jan 2007 22:07:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from marduk.eng.sun.com (marduk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.108.224]) by engmail3mpk.sfbay.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0O67FLb020059; Tue, 23 Jan 2007 22:07:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from marduk.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by marduk.eng.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l0O67ZvG023172; Tue, 23 Jan 2007 22:07:35 -0800 (PST) Received: (from gww@localhost) by marduk.eng.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.11/Submit) id l0O67Z4O023171; Tue, 23 Jan 2007 22:07:35 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 22:07:35 -0800 (PST) From: Gary Winiger Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page To: PSARC-EXT@sun.com, sch@eng.sun.com Cc: barts@eng.sun.com Message-id: <200701240607.l0O67Z4O023171@marduk.eng.sun.com> Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 Status: RO Content-Length: 141 > Standards, Environments, and Macros gnu(5) Nit. I presume filesystem(5) will be ammended as well ;-) But, if not, why not. Gary.. From sch@rosseau.sfbay.sun.com Tue Jan 23 22:13:05 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0O6D4YL016832 for ; Tue, 23 Jan 2007 22:13:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0O6D2Pi023548 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-EXT@sun.com>; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 14:13:02 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCC00601ZXNRC00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Tue, 23 Jan 2007 22:12:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from sfbaymail2sca.sfbay.sun.com ([129.145.155.42]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCC00FMXZXNYE40@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Tue, 23 Jan 2007 22:12:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from rosseau.sfbay.sun.com (rosseau.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.228.252]) by sfbaymail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.10/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0O6CwjH022682 for ; Tue, 23 Jan 2007 22:12:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from rosseau.sfbay.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rosseau.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l0O6CwRZ027705; Tue, 23 Jan 2007 22:12:58 -0800 (PST) Received: (from sch@localhost) by rosseau.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/Submit) id l0O6CwoP027704; Tue, 23 Jan 2007 22:12:58 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 22:12:58 -0800 From: Stephen Hahn Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu In-reply-to: <200701240605.l0O65dCa023130@marduk.eng.sun.com> To: Gary Winiger Cc: PSARC-EXT@sun.com, barts@eng.sun.com Message-id: <20070124061258.GA27682@eng.sun.com> Organization: Solaris Kernel Development; Sun Microsystems, Inc. MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200701240605.l0O65dCa023130@marduk.eng.sun.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.7i Status: RO Content-Length: 341 * Gary Winiger [2007-01-23 22:05]: > > This case seeks Minor release binding. > > Is there anything in this project that would preclude a patch > release binding? Not that I know of. - Stephen -- Stephen Hahn, PhD Solaris Kernel Development, Sun Microsystems stephen.hahn@sun.com http://blogs.sun.com/sch/ From sch@rosseau.sfbay.sun.com Tue Jan 23 22:18:55 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0O6Itbf016879 for ; Tue, 23 Jan 2007 22:18:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0O6InKN009901 for <@sunmail1brm.central.sun.com:PSARC-EXT@sun.com>; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 06:18:54 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCD00L0107G4200@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Tue, 23 Jan 2007 23:18:52 -0700 (MST) Received: from sfbaymail2sca.sfbay.sun.com ([129.145.155.42]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCD00FN807FPB20@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Tue, 23 Jan 2007 23:18:51 -0700 (MST) Received: from rosseau.sfbay.sun.com (rosseau.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.228.252]) by sfbaymail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.10/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0O6Ipl2023719 for ; Tue, 23 Jan 2007 22:18:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from rosseau.sfbay.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rosseau.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l0O6IpVQ027766; Tue, 23 Jan 2007 22:18:51 -0800 (PST) Received: (from sch@localhost) by rosseau.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/Submit) id l0O6Ip9Y027765; Tue, 23 Jan 2007 22:18:51 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 22:18:51 -0800 From: Stephen Hahn Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <200701240607.l0O67Z4O023171@marduk.eng.sun.com> To: Gary Winiger Cc: PSARC-EXT@sun.com, barts@eng.sun.com Message-id: <20070124061851.GB27682@eng.sun.com> Organization: Solaris Kernel Development; Sun Microsystems, Inc. MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200701240607.l0O67Z4O023171@marduk.eng.sun.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.7i Status: RO Content-Length: 551 * Gary Winiger [2007-01-23 22:07]: > > Standards, Environments, and Macros gnu(5) > > Nit. I presume filesystem(5) will be ammended as well ;-) > But, if not, why not. It's an omission. I would propose adding something like + /usr/gnu + + GNU commands environment: executables, documentation, and + supporting files. with gnu(5) in the "SEE ALSO" section. Thanks Stephen -- Stephen Hahn, PhD Solaris Kernel Development, Sun Microsystems stephen.hahn@sun.com http://blogs.sun.com/sch/ From Darren.Reed@Sun.COM Wed Jan 24 05:31:50 2007 Received: from sunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM (sunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.17]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0ODVnbb024032 for ; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 05:31:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.11.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0ODVnW13766 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-EXT@sun.com>; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 06:31:49 -0700 (MST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCD00H01K8ZP800@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Wed, 24 Jan 2007 05:31:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from sineb-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.19.6]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCD00G9QK8XYE00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Wed, 24 Jan 2007 05:31:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from fe-apac-05.sun.com (fe-apac-05.sun.com [192.18.19.176] (may be forged)) by sineb-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l0ODVjM5005124 for ; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 21:31:45 +0800 (SGT) Received: from conversion-daemon.mail-apac.sun.com by mail-apac.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JCD00001K338O00@mail-apac.sun.com> (original mail from Darren.Reed@Sun.COM) for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Wed, 24 Jan 2007 21:31:45 +0800 (SGT) Received: from [129.157.19.198] by mail-apac.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JCD002G5K8UY4LT@mail-apac.sun.com>; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 21:31:45 +0800 (SGT) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 14:31:14 +0100 From: Darren Reed Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <20070124061851.GB27682@eng.sun.com> Sender: Darren.Reed@Sun.COM To: Stephen Hahn Cc: Gary Winiger , PSARC-EXT@Sun.COM, barts@eng.sun.com Message-id: <45B75FA2.1080504@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en-us, en X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200701240607.l0O67Z4O023171@marduk.eng.sun.com> <20070124061851.GB27682@eng.sun.com> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; SunOS i86pc; en-US; rv:1.7) Gecko/20060120 Status: RO Content-Length: 3377 Stephen Hahn wrote: >* Gary Winiger [2007-01-23 22:07]: > >>>Standards, Environments, and Macros gnu(5) >>> >> Nit. I presume filesystem(5) will be ammended as well ;-) >> But, if not, why not. >> > > It's an omission. I would propose adding something like > >+ /usr/gnu >+ >+ GNU commands environment: executables, documentation, and >+ supporting files. > Just a nit, but with that wording, I'd be very confused to see bash (and others) in /usr/bin. /usr/sfw was fairly straightforward - where we installed software that was bundled but not part of ON. This was problematic for many because the default paths of various environments do not include /usr/sfw. In the submission, you write: > An application that wants to use GNU utility variants in preference > to all other utility variants on the system must set the > PATH (sh(1), ksh(1), bash(1), etc.) or path (csh(1), etc.) > environment variable as follows: Is there a variant of bash that _isn't_ the GNU one? The goal of creating /usr/gnu for commands that have conflicting behaviour with tools we provide (make being an obvious example) is good but it needs to be made more clear that /usr/gnu is for exceptions that conflict with Solaris, as you state here: > Similar to the XPG4 and XPG6 environments, if the behaviour of a > GNU command conflicts with the historical utility's behaviour, the > historical utility remains in /usr/bin; the GNU variant is provided > in /usr/gnu/bin. (In special cases, a copy of the variant, > prefixed with the 'g' character, may also be present in /usr/bin. > For example, /usr/gnu/bin/install is also provided as > /usr/bin/ginstall.) In cases where no historical equivalent was > previously provided, the GNU command will be present in both > /usr/bin and /usr/gnu/bin. The decision on whether to prefix a binary's name with 'g' should take into account whether or not it is already present in any of the directories we provide binaries in (/usr/bin, /usr/ccs/bin, /usr/sbin, others?), not just /usr/bin. I would be tempted to say that the architecture for /usr/gnu should be that unless Sun provides a command with a similar name, programs should always be installed into /usr/bin, not /usr/gnu/bin, except in the case of those with a 'g' prefix - 'g' version in /usr/bin, non-'g' version in /usr/gnu/bin. This way people aren't required to modify their default environment in order to access the extra tools available. Otherwise we're just reinventing the /usr/sfw/bin problem but with a new name. In addition, if we are going to provide /usr/gnu (for the purpose as stated) then we need to have a simple way to "use" it. Something along the lines of a radio button on a login screen or when doing an install or creating a user that says "GNU command line environment" or similar. That's likely to be beyond the scope of this case but without it, for "too many people", /usr/gnu will be just another /usr/sfw, different only in name. I'd also like to see some thought given to libraries - is there any intention to create a /usr/gnu/lib, how is that inteded to be used vs /usr/lib and /lib, etc, discuss shared library names and their conflicts, do people need to use LD_LIBRARY_PATH in addition to changing PATH, would /usr/gnu/bin/make pull in as/ld from /usr/gnu too, link against glibc, etc... Darren From schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de Wed Jan 24 08:10:48 2007 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0OGAl9V027632 for ; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 08:10:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0OGAiNJ028653; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 08:10:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCD00G1LRLT3B00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 08:10:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com ([192.18.98.34]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCD00EZORLS1H40@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 08:10:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay2.sun.com (relay2.sun.com [150.143.103.24] (may be forged)) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l0OFpFKg024685; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 09:10:40 -0700 (MST) Received: from mms05es.sun.com ([150.143.104.94] [150.143.104.94]) by relay2.sun.com with ESMTP; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 16:09:49 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay03i.sun.com ([150.143.60.74] [150.143.60.74]) by mms05es.sun.com with ESMTP; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 16:09:43 +0000 (Z) Received: from mailhub.fokus.fraunhofer.de ([193.174.154.14] [193.174.154.14]) by relay0i.sun.com with ESMTP; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 16:09:43 +0000 (Z) Received: from burner.fokus.fraunhofer.de (burner [10.147.65.166]) by mailhub.fokus.fraunhofer.de (8.11.6p2/8.11.6) with ESMTP id l0OG9Z916615; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 17:09:35 +0100 (MET) Received: (from jes@localhost) by burner.fokus.fraunhofer.de (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/Submit) id l0OG7dhW011029; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 17:07:39 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 17:07:39 +0100 From: Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (Joerg Schilling) Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <45B75FA2.1080504@sun.com> Sender: schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de To: sch@eng.sun.com, Darren.Reed@sun.com Cc: PSARC-EXT@sun.com, gww@eng.sun.com, barts@eng.sun.com Message-id: <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200701240607.l0O67Z4O023171@marduk.eng.sun.com> <20070124061851.GB27682@eng.sun.com> <45B75FA2.1080504@sun.com> User-Agent: nail 11.22 3/20/05 Status: RO Content-Length: 1259 Darren Reed wrote: > /usr/sfw was fairly straightforward - where we installed software that > was bundled but not part of ON. This was problematic for many because > the default paths of various environments do not include /usr/sfw. For me, it would be important not to confuse /usr/sfw with /usr/gnu and to only put GNU (FSF) software into /usr/gnu and not arbitrary free software (even though this software may be under the GPL). > I'd also like to see some thought given to libraries - is there any > intention to create a /usr/gnu/lib, how is that inteded to be used > vs /usr/lib and /lib, etc, discuss shared library names and their > conflicts, do people need to use LD_LIBRARY_PATH in addition to > changing PATH, would /usr/gnu/bin/make pull in as/ld from /usr/gnu > too, link against glibc, etc... Wouldn't this require to have two different gcc variants on Solaris? One that uses as/ld and another one that uses gas/gld? Jörg -- EMail:joerg@schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin js@cs.tu-berlin.de (uni) schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily From nw141292@binky.Central.Sun.COM Wed Jan 24 08:22:09 2007 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0OGM9hX028105 for ; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 08:22:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0OGM4Fb001708; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 08:22:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCD00F29S4U5A00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 08:22:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM ([129.153.128.104]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCD00IO7S4TCZB0@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 08:22:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0OGLdsh018178; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 10:21:39 -0600 (CST) Received: (from nw141292@localhost) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/Submit) id l0OGLdA5018177; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 10:21:39 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 10:21:39 -0600 From: Nicolas Williams Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <45B75FA2.1080504@sun.com> To: Darren Reed Cc: Stephen Hahn , barts@eng.sun.com, PSARC-EXT@sun.com, Gary Winiger Message-id: <20070124162138.GR12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200701240607.l0O67Z4O023171@marduk.eng.sun.com> <20070124061851.GB27682@eng.sun.com> <45B75FA2.1080504@sun.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.7i Status: RO Content-Length: 1291 On Wed, Jan 24, 2007 at 02:31:14PM +0100, Darren Reed wrote: > I would be tempted to say that the architecture for /usr/gnu should > be that unless Sun provides a command with a similar name, programs > should always be installed into /usr/bin, not /usr/gnu/bin, except > in the case of those with a 'g' prefix - 'g' version in /usr/bin, > non-'g' version in /usr/gnu/bin. This way people aren't required > to modify their default environment in order to access the extra > tools available. Otherwise we're just reinventing the /usr/sfw/bin > problem but with a new name. I thought the proposal was for pretty much what you suggest. > I'd also like to see some thought given to libraries - is there any > intention to create a /usr/gnu/lib, how is that inteded to be used > vs /usr/lib and /lib, etc, discuss shared library names and their > conflicts, do people need to use LD_LIBRARY_PATH in addition to > changing PATH, would /usr/gnu/bin/make pull in as/ld from /usr/gnu > too, link against glibc, etc... LD_LIBRARY_PATH is not meant for everyday production use. All ELF objects we deliver should have proper dependencies recorded and proper runpaths (ld ... -R ...), so that should not be an issue. As for gas/gld. I can't recall ever needing to use those on Solaris. Nico -- From Marcel.Telka@sun.com Wed Jan 24 08:28:38 2007 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0OGScIr028346 for ; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 08:28:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0OGSbqd008638 for <@sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-EXT@sun.com>; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 08:28:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCD00F07SFOQ100@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Wed, 24 Jan 2007 08:28:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com ([129.156.42.6]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCD00I2YSFMD7D0@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Wed, 24 Jan 2007 08:28:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from d1-emea-09.sun.com ([192.18.2.119]) by gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l0OGSYTc006968 for ; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 16:28:34 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-emea-09.sun.com by d1-emea-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JCD00D01SBXZV00@d1-emea-09.sun.com> (original mail from Marcel.Telka@Sun.COM) for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Wed, 24 Jan 2007 16:28:34 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [129.157.71.66] by d1-emea-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JCD00M88SFL09VB@d1-emea-09.sun.com>; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 16:28:34 +0000 (GMT) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 17:28:32 +0100 From: Marcel Telka Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> Sender: Marcel.Telka@sun.com To: Joerg Schilling Cc: sch@eng.sun.com, Darren.Reed@sun.com, PSARC-EXT@sun.com, gww@eng.sun.com, barts@eng.sun.com Message-id: <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.8.1.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200701240607.l0O67Z4O023171@marduk.eng.sun.com> <20070124061851.GB27682@eng.sun.com> <45B75FA2.1080504@sun.com> <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> Status: RO Content-Length: 1369 On Wed, 2007-01-24 at 17:07 +0100, Joerg Schilling wrote: > Darren Reed wrote: > > > /usr/sfw was fairly straightforward - where we installed software that > > was bundled but not part of ON. This was problematic for many because > > the default paths of various environments do not include /usr/sfw. > > For me, it would be important not to confuse /usr/sfw with /usr/gnu > and to only put GNU (FSF) software into /usr/gnu and not arbitrary free > software (even though this software may be under the GPL). If I understand it correctly you want to put GNU software into /usr/gnu and non-GNU software under /usr/sfw. Then the question is what we will do in case when some non-GNU software (placed in our /usr/sfw) becomes a GNU software? Will we move the software into /usr/gnu or not? > > > I'd also like to see some thought given to libraries - is there any > > intention to create a /usr/gnu/lib, how is that inteded to be used > > vs /usr/lib and /lib, etc, discuss shared library names and their > > conflicts, do people need to use LD_LIBRARY_PATH in addition to > > changing PATH, would /usr/gnu/bin/make pull in as/ld from /usr/gnu > > too, link against glibc, etc... > > Wouldn't this require to have two different gcc variants on Solaris? > > One that uses as/ld and another one that uses gas/gld? > > Jörg > -- Marcel Telka From John.Plocher@sun.com Wed Jan 24 08:38:23 2007 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0OGcN6g028737 for ; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 08:38:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0OGcNoj010709 for <@sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-EXT@sun.com>; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 08:38:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCD00G07SVYG300@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Wed, 24 Jan 2007 08:38:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-ea-fw-1.sun.com ([10.4.134.6]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCD00IN3SVDD7D0@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Wed, 24 Jan 2007 08:38:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from d1-sfbay-09.sun.com ([192.18.39.119]) by nwk-ea-fw-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l0OGc10b011097 for ; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 08:38:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-sfbay-09.sun.com by d1-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JCD00I01SS5MV00@d1-sfbay-09.sun.com> (original mail from John.Plocher@Sun.COM) for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Wed, 24 Jan 2007 08:38:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from [129.146.58.87] by d1-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JCD00MV4SVDBKQP@d1-sfbay-09.sun.com>; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 08:38:01 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 08:37:59 -0800 From: John Plocher Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> Sender: John.Plocher@sun.com To: Marcel Telka Cc: Joerg Schilling , PSARC-EXT@sun.com, barts@eng.sun.com, Darren.Reed@sun.com, gww@eng.sun.com Message-id: <45B78B67.2090600@Sun.Com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200701240607.l0O67Z4O023171@marduk.eng.sun.com> <20070124061851.GB27682@eng.sun.com> <45B75FA2.1080504@sun.com> <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Macintosh/20061207) Status: RO Content-Length: 494 Marcel Telka wrote: > If I understand it correctly you want to put GNU software into /usr/gnu > and non-GNU software under /usr/sfw. Things would go into /usr/gnu only if the name of the executable conflicted with one already in /usr/bin. Same for /usr/sfw, though historically, this has not been well understood or followed.... Bottom line - I don't see this scenario as being terribly likely; chances are that the non-gnu-thing would simply go into /usr/bin at the beginning. -John From schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de Wed Jan 24 08:44:02 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0OGi1HB028780 for ; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 08:44:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0OGhntZ025256; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 16:43:59 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCD0010JT568V00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 09:43:54 -0700 (MST) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.98.31]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCD00LRUT558220@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 09:43:53 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay24.sun.com (ip192-12-251-74.block6.us.syntegra.com [192.12.251.74]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l0OGhrep015652; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 09:43:53 -0700 (MST) Received: from mms29es.sun.com ([150.143.232.174] [150.143.232.174]) by relay24.sun.com with ESMTP; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 16:43:53 +0000 (Z) Received: from mms23bas.mms.us.syntegra.com (mms23bas.mms.us.syntegra.com [192.12.251.50]) by mms29es.sun.com with ESMTP; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 16:43:48 +0000 (Z) Received: from mailhub.fokus.fraunhofer.de ([193.174.154.14] [193.174.154.14]) by relay23.sun.com with ESMTP; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 16:39:28 +0000 (Z) Received: from burner.fokus.fraunhofer.de (burner [10.147.65.166]) by mailhub.fokus.fraunhofer.de (8.11.6p2/8.11.6) with ESMTP id l0OGcc919743; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 17:38:38 +0100 (MET) Received: (from jes@localhost) by burner.fokus.fraunhofer.de (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/Submit) id l0OGaf9N011082; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 17:36:41 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 17:36:41 +0100 From: Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (Joerg Schilling) Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> Sender: schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de To: Marcel.Telka@sun.com Cc: sch@eng.sun.com, PSARC-EXT@sun.com, gww@eng.sun.com, Darren.Reed@sun.com, barts@eng.sun.com Message-id: <45b78b19.UuA5rTidJOnO3/65%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200701240607.l0O67Z4O023171@marduk.eng.sun.com> <20070124061851.GB27682@eng.sun.com> <45B75FA2.1080504@sun.com> <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> User-Agent: nail 11.22 3/20/05 Status: RO Content-Length: 1249 Marcel Telka wrote: > On Wed, 2007-01-24 at 17:07 +0100, Joerg Schilling wrote: > > Darren Reed wrote: > > > > > /usr/sfw was fairly straightforward - where we installed software that > > > was bundled but not part of ON. This was problematic for many because > > > the default paths of various environments do not include /usr/sfw. > > > > For me, it would be important not to confuse /usr/sfw with /usr/gnu > > and to only put GNU (FSF) software into /usr/gnu and not arbitrary free > > software (even though this software may be under the GPL). > > If I understand it correctly you want to put GNU software into /usr/gnu > and non-GNU software under /usr/sfw. Then the question is what we will > do in case when some non-GNU software (placed in our /usr/sfw) becomes a > GNU software? Will we move the software into /usr/gnu or not? Please explain to me why non-GNU software should be in /usr/gnu Jörg -- EMail:joerg@schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin js@cs.tu-berlin.de (uni) schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily From Marcel.Telka@sun.com Wed Jan 24 08:49:15 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0OGnE59028856 for ; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 08:49:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0OGmqB1027379 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-EXT@sun.com>; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 16:49:13 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCD00K03TE0MP00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@Sun.COM); Wed, 24 Jan 2007 08:49:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com ([129.156.42.5]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCD00EXRTDZ1LC0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@Sun.COM); Wed, 24 Jan 2007 08:49:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from d1-emea-10.sun.com (d1-emea-10.sun.com [192.18.2.120]) by gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l0OGnBEm016660 for ; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 16:49:11 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-emea-10.sun.com by d1-emea-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JCD00G01T996100@d1-emea-10.sun.com> (original mail from Marcel.Telka@Sun.COM) for PSARC-EXT@Sun.COM (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@Sun.COM); Wed, 24 Jan 2007 16:49:11 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [129.157.71.66] by d1-emea-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JCD00FFNTDWT8QO@d1-emea-10.sun.com>; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 16:49:09 +0000 (GMT) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 17:49:07 +0100 From: Marcel Telka Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <45b78b19.UuA5rTidJOnO3/65%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> Sender: Marcel.Telka@sun.com To: Joerg Schilling Cc: sch@eng.sun.com, PSARC-EXT@sun.com, gww@eng.sun.com, Darren.Reed@sun.com, barts@eng.sun.com Message-id: <1169657347.2419.13.camel@tortuga> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.8.1.1 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200701240607.l0O67Z4O023171@marduk.eng.sun.com> <20070124061851.GB27682@eng.sun.com> <45B75FA2.1080504@sun.com> <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45b78b19.UuA5rTidJOnO3/65%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> Status: RO Content-Length: 1170 On Wed, 2007-01-24 at 17:36 +0100, Joerg Schilling wrote: > Marcel Telka wrote: > > > On Wed, 2007-01-24 at 17:07 +0100, Joerg Schilling wrote: > > > Darren Reed wrote: > > > > > > > /usr/sfw was fairly straightforward - where we installed software that > > > > was bundled but not part of ON. This was problematic for many because > > > > the default paths of various environments do not include /usr/sfw. > > > > > > For me, it would be important not to confuse /usr/sfw with /usr/gnu > > > and to only put GNU (FSF) software into /usr/gnu and not arbitrary free > > > software (even though this software may be under the GPL). > > > > If I understand it correctly you want to put GNU software into /usr/gnu > > and non-GNU software under /usr/sfw. Then the question is what we will > > do in case when some non-GNU software (placed in our /usr/sfw) becomes a > > GNU software? Will we move the software into /usr/gnu or not? > > Please explain to me why non-GNU software should be in /usr/gnu No. Non-gnu should be in /usr/sfw. But sometimes non-GNU becomes GNU (FSF adopt it as a GNU software). -- Marcel Telka From bart.smaalders@Sun.COM Wed Jan 24 08:50:27 2007 Received: from sunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM (sunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.17]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0OGoRdU028875 for ; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 08:50:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.11.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0OGoQW18969 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-EXT@Sun.COM>; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 09:50:26 -0700 (MST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCD00K1FTFZXW00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for PSARC-EXT@Sun.COM (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@Sun.COM); Wed, 24 Jan 2007 08:50:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from engmail3mpk.sfbay.Sun.COM ([129.146.11.26]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCD00EFDTFX1LD0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for PSARC-EXT@Sun.COM (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@Sun.COM); Wed, 24 Jan 2007 08:50:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from zion.eng.sun.com (zion.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.17.75]) by engmail3mpk.sfbay.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0OGoIj5027744; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 08:50:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from [129.146.228.109] (cyber [129.146.228.109]) by zion.eng.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7) with ESMTP id l0OGoHJh017930; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 08:50:17 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 08:50:00 -0800 From: Bart Smaalders Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> To: Marcel Telka Cc: Joerg Schilling , PSARC-EXT@Sun.COM, barts@eng.sun.com, Darren.Reed@Sun.COM, gww@eng.sun.com Message-id: <45B78E38.6080003@Sun.COM> Organization: Sun Microsystems MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200701240607.l0O67Z4O023171@marduk.eng.sun.com> <20070124061851.GB27682@eng.sun.com> <45B75FA2.1080504@sun.com> <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.8 (X11/20061204) Status: RO Content-Length: 1097 Marcel Telka wrote: > On Wed, 2007-01-24 at 17:07 +0100, Joerg Schilling wrote: >> Darren Reed wrote: >> >>> /usr/sfw was fairly straightforward - where we installed software that >>> was bundled but not part of ON. This was problematic for many because >>> the default paths of various environments do not include /usr/sfw. >> For me, it would be important not to confuse /usr/sfw with /usr/gnu >> and to only put GNU (FSF) software into /usr/gnu and not arbitrary free >> software (even though this software may be under the GPL). > > If I understand it correctly you want to put GNU software into /usr/gnu > and non-GNU software under /usr/sfw. Then the question is what we will > do in case when some non-GNU software (placed in our /usr/sfw) becomes a > GNU software? Will we move the software into /usr/gnu or not? > Actually, /usr/sfw/ is going away. Binaries that don't have name conflicts belong in /usr/bin. The scenario you describe won't happen. - Bart -- Bart Smaalders Solaris Kernel Performance barts@cyber.eng.sun.com http://blogs.sun.com/barts From Darren.Moffat@sun.com Wed Jan 24 08:53:46 2007 Received: from sunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM (sunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.17]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0OGrkLK029053 for ; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 08:53:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.11.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0OGrjW22787 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-EXT@sun.com>; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 09:53:45 -0700 (MST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCD00L1DTLK5M00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@Sun.COM); Wed, 24 Jan 2007 08:53:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com ([129.156.42.6]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCD00EX2TLH1LE0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@Sun.COM); Wed, 24 Jan 2007 08:53:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from d1-emea-10.sun.com ([192.18.2.120]) by gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l0OGrfug010551 for ; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 16:53:41 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-emea-10.sun.com by d1-emea-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JCD00L01TJL4J00@d1-emea-10.sun.com> (original mail from Darren.Moffat@Sun.COM) for PSARC-EXT@Sun.COM (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@Sun.COM); Wed, 24 Jan 2007 16:53:41 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [129.156.173.21] by d1-emea-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JCD0026MTLGCS10@d1-emea-10.sun.com>; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 16:53:41 +0000 (GMT) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 16:53:40 +0000 From: Darren J Moffat Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <1169657347.2419.13.camel@tortuga> Sender: Darren.Moffat@sun.com To: Marcel Telka Cc: Joerg Schilling , PSARC-EXT@sun.com, barts@eng.sun.com, Darren.Reed@sun.com, gww@eng.sun.com Message-id: <45B78F14.6000003@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200701240607.l0O67Z4O023171@marduk.eng.sun.com> <20070124061851.GB27682@eng.sun.com> <45B75FA2.1080504@sun.com> <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45b78b19.UuA5rTidJOnO3/65%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169657347.2419.13.camel@tortuga> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.8 (X11/20061128) Status: RO Content-Length: 707 Marcel Telka wrote: > No. Non-gnu should be in /usr/sfw. But sometimes non-GNU becomes GNU > (FSF adopt it as a GNU software). Nothing new should IMO be getting added to /usr/sfw it was in hindsight not the best way to resolve an issue that no longer exists. The reason for /usr/gnu is the same as the reason for /usr/xpg?/ it is there ONLY to host conflicts between a GNU variant and an already existing program of the same name (that may or may not function the same), where the already existing GNU one can not be replaced with 100% compat with the GNU one. Are people reading the whole set of case material before commenting or just looking at the draft man page gnu(5) ? -- Darren J Moffat From Marcel.Telka@sun.com Wed Jan 24 09:00:51 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0OH0oRn029718 for ; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 09:00:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0OH0lfM000882; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 17:00:48 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCD0021FTX9U000@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 10:00:45 -0700 (MST) Received: from gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com ([129.156.42.5]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCD00LW8TX47U20@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 10:00:41 -0700 (MST) Received: from d1-emea-09.sun.com (d1-emea-09.sun.com [192.18.2.119]) by gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l0OH0enG018219; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 17:00:40 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-emea-09.sun.com by d1-emea-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JCD00M01TTD9700@d1-emea-09.sun.com> (original mail from Marcel.Telka@Sun.COM); Wed, 24 Jan 2007 17:00:40 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [129.157.71.66] by d1-emea-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JCD00MB4TX3052P@d1-emea-09.sun.com>; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 17:00:40 +0000 (GMT) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 18:00:38 +0100 From: Marcel Telka Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <45B78E38.6080003@Sun.COM> Sender: Marcel.Telka@sun.com To: Bart Smaalders Cc: Joerg Schilling , PSARC-EXT@sun.com, barts@eng.sun.com, Darren.Reed@sun.com, gww@eng.sun.com Message-id: <1169658038.2419.19.camel@tortuga> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.8.1.1 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200701240607.l0O67Z4O023171@marduk.eng.sun.com> <20070124061851.GB27682@eng.sun.com> <45B75FA2.1080504@sun.com> <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45B78E38.6080003@Sun.COM> Status: RO Content-Length: 1521 On Wed, 2007-01-24 at 08:50 -0800, Bart Smaalders wrote: > Marcel Telka wrote: > > On Wed, 2007-01-24 at 17:07 +0100, Joerg Schilling wrote: > >> Darren Reed wrote: > >> > >>> /usr/sfw was fairly straightforward - where we installed software that > >>> was bundled but not part of ON. This was problematic for many because > >>> the default paths of various environments do not include /usr/sfw. > >> For me, it would be important not to confuse /usr/sfw with /usr/gnu > >> and to only put GNU (FSF) software into /usr/gnu and not arbitrary free > >> software (even though this software may be under the GPL). > > > > If I understand it correctly you want to put GNU software into /usr/gnu > > and non-GNU software under /usr/sfw. Then the question is what we will > > do in case when some non-GNU software (placed in our /usr/sfw) becomes a > > GNU software? Will we move the software into /usr/gnu or not? > > > > > Actually, /usr/sfw/ is going away. Binaries that don't have name > conflicts belong in /usr/bin. The scenario you describe won't happen. One example: ls 1. Our implementation is in /usr/bin 2. GNU implementation should be in /usr/gnu 3. Another free (maybe GPLed, not mandatory) implementation should go ... where? An example of 3: busybox. Yes. I know. We do not want NOW another implementation of ls, but for future: What will be happen? I think, that this (at least a bit) off topic for this case. If so, we could stop this thread. :-) Regards. -- Marcel Telka From carlsonj@phorcys.east.sun.com Wed Jan 24 09:13:02 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0OHD1RD029967 for ; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 09:13:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0OHCrBJ004586; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 17:12:57 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCD00009UHK3Q00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 09:12:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com ([129.148.174.143]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCD00L7VUHJC810@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 09:12:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l0OHCsIx021771; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 12:12:54 -0500 (EST) Received: (from carlsonj@localhost) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/Submit) id l0OHCsTD021768; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 12:12:54 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 12:12:53 -0500 From: James Carlson Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <45B78F14.6000003@Sun.COM> To: Darren J Moffat Cc: Marcel Telka , Joerg Schilling , PSARC-EXT@sun.com, barts@eng.sun.com, Darren.Reed@sun.com, gww@eng.sun.com Message-id: <17847.37781.741472.969057@gargle.gargle.HOWL> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: VM 7.01 under Emacs 21.3.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200701240607.l0O67Z4O023171@marduk.eng.sun.com> <20070124061851.GB27682@eng.sun.com> <45B75FA2.1080504@sun.com> <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45b78b19.UuA5rTidJOnO3/65%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169657347.2419.13.camel@tortuga> <45B78F14.6000003@Sun.COM> Status: RO Content-Length: 1777 Darren J Moffat writes: > Marcel Telka wrote: > > No. Non-gnu should be in /usr/sfw. But sometimes non-GNU becomes GNU > > (FSF adopt it as a GNU software). > > Nothing new should IMO be getting added to /usr/sfw it was in hindsight > not the best way to resolve an issue that no longer exists. Agreed. > Are people reading the whole set of case material before commenting or > just looking at the draft man page gnu(5) ? I think they're reading the whole set. The conflict is over the definition of /usr/gnu, and what it means to add this to your path. First of all, there exists free software that is not part of the FSF or even under GPL. Some of it is included in GNU-ish operating systems, such as various distributions of Linux. Worse, some software becomes GPL'd or part of the FSF over time. (And, presumably, other parts could leave.) If such software conflicts with existing things in /usr/bin, where does it go? The contention by the project team seems to be that objects that are free software but aren't exactly GNU will still go in /usr/gnu. Though perhaps defensible, that seems a bit strange, and is leading to a number of questions. I *think* the problem is with the definition of /usr/gnu. Is it really "stuff you'd expect to see in /usr/bin on a Linux system, but that can't be right there on Solaris because it'd wipe out something we already have?" That is: is it analogous the "to be XPG4, add this to your path" story, but with "Linux" instead of "XPG4?" Or is there some other reference point that makes sense? -- James Carlson, Solaris Networking Sun Microsystems / 1 Network Drive 71.232W Vox +1 781 442 2084 MS UBUR02-212 / Burlington MA 01803-2757 42.496N Fax +1 781 442 1677 From schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de Wed Jan 24 09:25:00 2007 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0OHP0rt000864 for ; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 09:25:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0OHOtXr018620; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 09:24:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCD0011NV1J6500@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 09:24:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from sca-ea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.43.25]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCD00L2NV1HBH20@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 09:24:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay21.sun.com (relay21.sun.com [192.12.251.14] (may be forged)) by sca-ea-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l0OHOrlF015716; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 09:24:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from mms27es.sun.com ([150.143.232.134] [150.143.232.134]) by relay21.sun.com with ESMTP; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 17:24:53 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay24.sun.com (relay24.sun.com [192.12.251.74]) by mms27es.sun.com with ESMTP; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 17:24:50 +0000 (Z) Received: from mailhub.fokus.fraunhofer.de ([193.174.154.14] [193.174.154.14]) by relay24.sun.com with ESMTP; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 17:22:43 +0000 (Z) Received: from burner.fokus.fraunhofer.de (burner [10.147.65.166]) by mailhub.fokus.fraunhofer.de (8.11.6p2/8.11.6) with ESMTP id l0OHMc924899; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 18:22:38 +0100 (MET) Received: (from jes@localhost) by burner.fokus.fraunhofer.de (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/Submit) id l0OHKguH011107; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 18:20:42 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 18:20:42 +0100 From: Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (Joerg Schilling) Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <45B78E38.6080003@Sun.COM> Sender: schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de To: Marcel.Telka@sun.com, bart.smaalders@sun.com Cc: PSARC-EXT@sun.com, gww@eng.sun.com, Darren.Reed@sun.com, barts@eng.sun.com Message-id: <45b7956a.FRgSNmnHrcict1cj%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200701240607.l0O67Z4O023171@marduk.eng.sun.com> <20070124061851.GB27682@eng.sun.com> <45B75FA2.1080504@sun.com> <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45B78E38.6080003@Sun.COM> User-Agent: nail 11.22 3/20/05 Status: RO Content-Length: 593 Bart Smaalders wrote: > Actually, /usr/sfw/ is going away. Binaries that don't have name > conflicts belong in /usr/bin. The scenario you describe won't happen. make(1) exists from Sun, GNU, BSD, Schily, ..... How to you like to handle conclifting name conflicts? Jörg -- EMail:joerg@schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin js@cs.tu-berlin.de (uni) schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily From John.Plocher@sun.com Wed Jan 24 09:30:01 2007 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0OHU15i001073 for ; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 09:30:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0OHU0xo019901; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 09:30:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCD00J0VV9YPE00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 09:29:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-ea-fw-1.sun.com ([10.4.134.5]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCD00J5JV9Y3E10@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 09:29:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from d1-sfbay-10.sun.com ([192.18.39.120]) by nwk-ea-fw-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l0OHTvYY025130; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 09:29:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-sfbay-10.sun.com by d1-sfbay-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JCD00601V7THK00@d1-sfbay-10.sun.com> (original mail from John.Plocher@Sun.COM); Wed, 24 Jan 2007 09:29:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from [129.146.58.87] by d1-sfbay-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JCD00D2SV9TNRX9@d1-sfbay-10.sun.com>; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 09:29:54 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 09:29:52 -0800 From: John Plocher Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <1169658038.2419.19.camel@tortuga> Sender: John.Plocher@sun.com To: Marcel Telka Cc: Bart Smaalders , Joerg Schilling , PSARC-EXT@sun.com, barts@eng.sun.com, Darren.Reed@sun.com, gww@eng.sun.com Message-id: <45B79790.1080502@Sun.Com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200701240607.l0O67Z4O023171@marduk.eng.sun.com> <20070124061851.GB27682@eng.sun.com> <45B75FA2.1080504@sun.com> <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45B78E38.6080003@Sun.COM> <1169658038.2419.19.camel@tortuga> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Macintosh/20061207) Status: RO Content-Length: 1136 Marcel Telka wrote: > Yes. I know. We do not want NOW another implementation of ls, but for > future: What will be happen? When a proposal is made to do something that triggers this scenerio, rest assured that we will discuss it and figure out the right thing to do. The key point here is NOT "who implemented it?", but rather "what architecture does it expose?". It may well be that the new thing is upwards compatible with that found in /usr/bin, and could simply replace it. This is *exactly* what we do every time we fix a bug in /bin/ls - the new version simply replaces the old version with no architectural repercussions :-) The problem with the /usr/gnu stuff is that, in general, its exposed architecture is somewhat "incompatible" with the corresponding POSIX commands already found in /usr/bin, and those commands already export Committed interfaces that can not be changed without causing problems with consumers. The proposal gives you the best of both worlds: If you care about being backwards compatible, set PATH=/usr/bin:... If you want the GNU versions instead, set PATH=/usr/gnu:/usr/bin:... -John From sommerfeld@sun.com Wed Jan 24 09:35:22 2007 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0OHZMRh001490 for ; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 09:35:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0OHZJ99026338; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 09:35:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCD0023FVIX3100@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 09:35:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from eastmail1bur.East.Sun.COM ([129.148.9.49]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCD00LRUVISBT20@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 09:35:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from thunk.east.sun.com (thunk.East.Sun.COM [129.148.174.66]) by eastmail1bur.East.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0OHZBJt006981; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 12:35:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from [IPv6:::1] (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by thunk.east.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l0OHZB1s013594; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 12:35:11 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 12:35:10 -0500 From: Bill Sommerfeld Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <45B79790.1080502@Sun.Com> To: John Plocher Cc: Marcel Telka , barts@eng.sun.com, gww@eng.sun.com, Joerg Schilling , PSARC-EXT@sun.com, Darren.Reed@sun.com Message-id: <1169660110.12336.22.camel@thunk> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.8.1.1 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200701240607.l0O67Z4O023171@marduk.eng.sun.com> <20070124061851.GB27682@eng.sun.com> <45B75FA2.1080504@sun.com> <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45B78E38.6080003@Sun.COM> <1169658038.2419.19.camel@tortuga> <45B79790.1080502@Sun.Com> Status: RO Content-Length: 259 > If you want the GNU versions instead, set > PATH=/usr/gnu:/usr/bin:... if we want to be strict about the terminology I attempted to define in 2005/683, we should be consistent about calling it the "GNU variant" rather than "GNU version" - Bill From nw141292@binky.Central.Sun.COM Wed Jan 24 09:53:59 2007 Received: from sunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM (sunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.17]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0OHrwkZ002034 for ; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 09:53:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.11.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0OHrqW19164; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 10:53:52 -0700 (MST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCD00L0LWDR2L00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 09:53:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM ([129.153.128.104]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCD00J7LWDQ3130@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 09:53:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0OHrNLK018714; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 11:53:23 -0600 (CST) Received: (from nw141292@localhost) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/Submit) id l0OHrN0J018713; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 11:53:23 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 11:53:23 -0600 From: Nicolas Williams Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <45B79790.1080502@Sun.Com> To: John Plocher Cc: Marcel Telka , Bart Smaalders , Joerg Schilling , PSARC-EXT@sun.com, barts@eng.sun.com, Darren.Reed@sun.com, gww@eng.sun.com Message-id: <20070124175322.GW12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200701240607.l0O67Z4O023171@marduk.eng.sun.com> <20070124061851.GB27682@eng.sun.com> <45B75FA2.1080504@sun.com> <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45B78E38.6080003@Sun.COM> <1169658038.2419.19.camel@tortuga> <45B79790.1080502@Sun.Com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.7i Status: RO Content-Length: 1270 On Wed, Jan 24, 2007 at 09:29:52AM -0800, John Plocher wrote: > Marcel Telka wrote: > >Yes. I know. We do not want NOW another implementation of ls, but for > >future: What will be happen? > > When a proposal is made to do something that triggers this scenerio, > rest assured that we will discuss it and figure out the right thing > to do. I would agree but, see below. > The key point here is NOT "who implemented it?", but rather "what > architecture does it expose?". [...] But the name "/usr/gnu" does seem to say something about who implemented it, thus the resulting questions (like "what about non-GNU but still GPL'ed utilities?" and "what about other FOSS that might conflict with things already in /usr/bin?"). I tend to agree with James that this smells much more like a new sort of XPG environment but for Linux compatibility, so that a name that reflects this rather than "GNU" seems better. OTOH, it's supposed to be "GNU/Linux" (according to some), so "/usr/gnu" is arguably pretty close. So clarifying whether /usr/gnu is intended to track any sort of standard or de facto standard or whether it's just for GNU utilities that conflict with /usr/bin, or whether it's for any GPL'ed utilities that conflict with /usr/bin seems in order. Nico -- From gww@eng.sun.com Wed Jan 24 09:54:35 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0OHsXwj002386 for ; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 09:54:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0OHsV5l021232 for <@sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-EXT@sun.com>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 01:54:32 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCD00L0BWEU6U00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Wed, 24 Jan 2007 09:54:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from engmail3mpk.sfbay.Sun.COM ([129.146.11.26]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCD00J1GWEU3630@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Wed, 24 Jan 2007 09:54:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from marduk.eng.sun.com (marduk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.108.224]) by engmail3mpk.sfbay.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0OHsPeH016608; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 09:54:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from marduk.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by marduk.eng.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l0OHsko1024008; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 09:54:46 -0800 (PST) Received: (from gww@localhost) by marduk.eng.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.11/Submit) id l0OHsk4g024007; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 09:54:46 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 09:54:46 -0800 (PST) From: Gary Winiger Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page To: Marcel.Telka@sun.com, bart.smaalders@sun.com, Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de Cc: PSARC-EXT@sun.com, gww@eng.sun.com, darren.reed@sun.com, barts@eng.sun.com Message-id: <200701241754.l0OHsk4g024007@marduk.eng.sun.com> Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 Status: RO Content-Length: 452 > make(1) exists from Sun, GNU, BSD, Schily, ..... > > How to you like to handle conclifting name conflicts? I'm getting concerned not with the substance of adding GNU or any other commands and libraries, but with the proliferation that could come about for conflicting functionality. /usr/bin, /usr/gnu, /usr/ucb, /usr/win32, /usr/darwin, /usr/freebsd, /usr/openbsd, /usr/distro flavor, ..... How are these intended to be addressed? Gary.. From carlsonj@phorcys.east.sun.com Wed Jan 24 10:14:23 2007 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0OIENOF004136 for ; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 10:14:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0OIEHJf002263; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 10:14:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCD00M0XXBUHD00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 10:14:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com ([129.148.174.143]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCD00JVKXBS3640@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 10:14:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l0OIEFW9022378; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 13:14:15 -0500 (EST) Received: (from carlsonj@localhost) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/Submit) id l0OIEFdM022375; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 13:14:15 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 13:14:15 -0500 From: James Carlson Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <200701241754.l0OHsk4g024007@marduk.eng.sun.com> To: Gary Winiger Cc: Marcel.Telka@sun.com, bart.smaalders@sun.com, Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de, barts@eng.sun.com, PSARC-EXT@sun.com, Darren.Reed@sun.com Message-id: <17847.41463.487389.216713@gargle.gargle.HOWL> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: VM 7.01 under Emacs 21.3.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200701241754.l0OHsk4g024007@marduk.eng.sun.com> Status: RO Content-Length: 1244 Gary Winiger writes: > > > make(1) exists from Sun, GNU, BSD, Schily, ..... > > > > How to you like to handle conclifting name conflicts? > > I'm getting concerned not with the substance of adding GNU > or any other commands and libraries, but with the proliferation > that could come about for conflicting functionality. > /usr/bin, /usr/gnu, /usr/ucb, /usr/win32, /usr/darwin, /usr/freebsd, > /usr/openbsd, /usr/distro flavor, ..... How are these intended > to be addressed? I've "derailed" this case. This means that the project team will need to request a meeting with PSARC in order to discuss the details of the proposal. (For those not familiar with ARC terminology: "derail" isn't in any way a denial or a signal of something wrong with the case. It means that we need to have at least a written ARC opinion for it, and may need to have one or more live meetings to discuss the issues that've been brought up. It's no longer a fast-track, and will not be automatically approved based on a timer.) -- James Carlson, Solaris Networking Sun Microsystems / 1 Network Drive 71.232W Vox +1 781 442 2084 MS UBUR02-212 / Burlington MA 01803-2757 42.496N Fax +1 781 442 1677 From sch@rosseau.sfbay.sun.com Wed Jan 24 10:36:35 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0OIaYYl005420 for ; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 10:36:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0OIa8fG004314 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-EXT@sun.com>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 02:36:33 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCD0091VYCUIK00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Wed, 24 Jan 2007 10:36:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from sfbaymail1sca.SFBay.Sun.COM ([129.145.154.35]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCD00LVPYCSBE60@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Wed, 24 Jan 2007 10:36:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from rosseau.sfbay.sun.com (rosseau.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.228.252]) by sfbaymail1sca.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0OIaObj028249; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 10:36:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from rosseau.sfbay.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rosseau.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l0OIaNPF017347; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 10:36:23 -0800 (PST) Received: (from sch@localhost) by rosseau.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/Submit) id l0OIaNhm017346; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 10:36:23 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 10:36:23 -0800 From: Stephen Hahn Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <17847.37781.741472.969057@gargle.gargle.HOWL> To: James Carlson Cc: Darren J Moffat , Marcel Telka , Joerg Schilling , PSARC-EXT@sun.com, barts@eng.sun.com, Darren.Reed@sun.com, gww@eng.sun.com Message-id: <20070124183623.GB17316@eng.sun.com> Organization: Solaris Kernel Development; Sun Microsystems, Inc. MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200701240607.l0O67Z4O023171@marduk.eng.sun.com> <20070124061851.GB27682@eng.sun.com> <45B75FA2.1080504@sun.com> <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45b78b19.UuA5rTidJOnO3/65%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169657347.2419.13.camel@tortuga> <45B78F14.6000003@Sun.COM> <17847.37781.741472.969057@gargle.gargle.HOWL> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.7i Status: RO Content-Length: 1308 * James Carlson [2007-01-24 09:13]: > The contention by the project team seems to be that objects that are > free software but aren't exactly GNU will still go in /usr/gnu. > Though perhaps defensible, that seems a bit strange, and is leading to > a number of questions. > > I *think* the problem is with the definition of /usr/gnu. Is it > really "stuff you'd expect to see in /usr/bin on a Linux system, but > that can't be right there on Solaris because it'd wipe out something > we already have?" The /usr/gnu definition is as precise as I could make it: it's the set of software on the FSF/UNESCO list that conflicts with things already present in /usr/bin, plus for completeness, the remaining executables from each included package that do not conflict (which are also present in /usr/bin). Marcel makes a good point, that software could be added to that list later. In such cases, the conflicting components may have been given a new location; however, it is incorrect to assume that those components ended up in /usr/sfw. (As, at the time of ARC proposal, the name conflict would have had to have been dealt with.) - Stephen -- Stephen Hahn, PhD Solaris Kernel Development, Sun Microsystems stephen.hahn@sun.com http://blogs.sun.com/sch/ From sch@rosseau.sfbay.sun.com Wed Jan 24 10:41:43 2007 Received: from sunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM (sunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.17]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0OIfhRq005656 for ; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 10:41:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.11.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0OIfgW24194 for <@sunmail1brm.central.sun.com:PSARC-EXT@sun.com>; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 11:41:43 -0700 (MST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCD00C1DYLIHO00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Wed, 24 Jan 2007 11:41:42 -0700 (MST) Received: from sfbaymail1sca.SFBay.Sun.COM ([129.145.154.35]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCD00LDJYLH7SA0@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Wed, 24 Jan 2007 11:41:41 -0700 (MST) Received: from rosseau.sfbay.sun.com (rosseau.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.228.252]) by sfbaymail1sca.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0OIfbUu001090; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 10:41:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from rosseau.sfbay.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rosseau.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l0OIfbG4017356; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 10:41:37 -0800 (PST) Received: (from sch@localhost) by rosseau.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/Submit) id l0OIfbEF017355; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 10:41:37 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 10:41:37 -0800 From: Stephen Hahn Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <17847.41463.487389.216713@gargle.gargle.HOWL> To: James Carlson Cc: Gary Winiger , Marcel.Telka@sun.com, bart.smaalders@sun.com, Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de, barts@eng.sun.com, PSARC-EXT@sun.com, Darren.Reed@sun.com Message-id: <20070124184136.GC17316@eng.sun.com> Organization: Solaris Kernel Development; Sun Microsystems, Inc. MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200701241754.l0OHsk4g024007@marduk.eng.sun.com> <17847.41463.487389.216713@gargle.gargle.HOWL> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.7i Status: RO Content-Length: 1618 * James Carlson [2007-01-24 10:14]: > Gary Winiger writes: > > > > > make(1) exists from Sun, GNU, BSD, Schily, ..... > > > > > > How to you like to handle conclifting name conflicts? > > > > I'm getting concerned not with the substance of adding GNU > > or any other commands and libraries, but with the proliferation > > that could come about for conflicting functionality. > > /usr/bin, /usr/gnu, /usr/ucb, /usr/win32, /usr/darwin, /usr/freebsd, > > /usr/openbsd, /usr/distro flavor, ..... How are these intended > > to be addressed? > > I've "derailed" this case. This means that the project team will need > to request a meeting with PSARC in order to discuss the details of the > proposal. > > (For those not familiar with ARC terminology: "derail" isn't in any > way a denial or a signal of something wrong with the case. It means > that we need to have at least a written ARC opinion for it, and may > need to have one or more live meetings to discuss the issues that've > been brought up. It's no longer a fast-track, and will not be > automatically approved based on a timer.) It would be a courtesy to the project team if ARC members could update the issues file with their current concerns (or concerns they have not yet written) by the end of the week. There are other projects dependent on this case that have to examine their alternatives, if we cannot come to a resolution in the neighbourhood the original proposal. - Stephen -- Stephen Hahn, PhD Solaris Kernel Development, Sun Microsystems stephen.hahn@sun.com http://blogs.sun.com/sch/ From David.Comay@sun.com Wed Jan 24 12:11:31 2007 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0OKBVrn009267 for ; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 12:11:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0OKBRb9029410; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 12:11:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCE0070X2R43G00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 12:11:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from izimbra.SFBay.Sun.COM ([129.146.226.141]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCE00J5X2R43FF0@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 12:11:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by izimbra.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l0OKBSip004177; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 12:11:28 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 12:11:27 -0800 (PST) From: David.Comay@sun.com Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <20070124162138.GR12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> Sender: comay@izimbra.SFBay.Sun.COM To: Nicolas Williams Cc: Darren Reed , barts@eng.sun.com, Gary Winiger , PSARC-EXT@sun.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200701240607.l0O67Z4O023171@marduk.eng.sun.com> <20070124061851.GB27682@eng.sun.com> <45B75FA2.1080504@sun.com> <20070124162138.GR12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> Status: RO Content-Length: 953 >> I would be tempted to say that the architecture for /usr/gnu should >> be that unless Sun provides a command with a similar name, programs >> should always be installed into /usr/bin, not /usr/gnu/bin, except >> in the case of those with a 'g' prefix - 'g' version in /usr/bin, >> non-'g' version in /usr/gnu/bin. This way people aren't required >> to modify their default environment in order to access the extra >> tools available. Otherwise we're just reinventing the /usr/sfw/bin >> problem but with a new name. > > I thought the proposal was for pretty much what you suggest. One notable exception is the proposal calls out that /usr/gnu is a fully populated - namely, even if there is no conflicting name in /usr/bin, there is still a component in /usr/gnu/bin (either /usr/bin/prog symlinks to /usr/gnu/bin/prog or vice-versa.) This is different from /usr/xpg[46] which are sparse directories and only contain conflicting components. dsc From carlsonj@phorcys.east.sun.com Wed Jan 24 12:47:52 2007 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0OKlqlo010040 for ; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 12:47:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0OKllvG006572; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 12:47:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCE002074FK8R00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 13:47:44 -0700 (MST) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com ([129.148.174.143]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCE00L8D4FIKG40@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 13:47:43 -0700 (MST) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l0OKlf2b023683; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 15:47:41 -0500 (EST) Received: (from carlsonj@localhost) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/Submit) id l0OKlfY9023680; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 15:47:41 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 15:47:41 -0500 From: James Carlson Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <20070124184136.GC17316@eng.sun.com> To: Stephen Hahn Cc: Gary Winiger , Marcel.Telka@sun.com, bart.smaalders@sun.com, Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de, barts@eng.sun.com, PSARC-EXT@sun.com, Darren.Reed@sun.com Message-id: <17847.50669.326050.267499@gargle.gargle.HOWL> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: VM 7.01 under Emacs 21.3.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200701241754.l0OHsk4g024007@marduk.eng.sun.com> <17847.41463.487389.216713@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20070124184136.GC17316@eng.sun.com> Status: RO Content-Length: 1032 Stephen Hahn writes: > It would be a courtesy to the project team if ARC members could update > the issues file with their current concerns (or concerns they have not > yet written) by the end of the week. There are other projects > dependent on this case that have to examine their alternatives, if we > cannot come to a resolution in the neighbourhood the original > proposal. I've added some issues to the file. Just to be clear about this: several members wanted to have this case derailed so that we could create a written opinion recording the precedent being set by this case. I'm just the one who stepped up (after much mumbling) to pull the derailment lever. We're aware that the other cases are all dependent on this one, which is why we derailed just this one and not the others. -- James Carlson, Solaris Networking Sun Microsystems / 1 Network Drive 71.232W Vox +1 781 442 2084 MS UBUR02-212 / Burlington MA 01803-2757 42.496N Fax +1 781 442 1677 From carlsonj@phorcys.east.sun.com Wed Jan 24 12:54:57 2007 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0OKsv7i010515 for ; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 12:54:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0OKspVY013512; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 12:54:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCE003074RC2N00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 13:54:48 -0700 (MST) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com ([129.148.174.143]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCE00LSZ4RCKL60@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 13:54:48 -0700 (MST) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l0OKsk2I023714; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 15:54:46 -0500 (EST) Received: (from carlsonj@localhost) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/Submit) id l0OKskdf023711; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 15:54:46 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 15:54:46 -0500 From: James Carlson Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <20070124183623.GB17316@eng.sun.com> To: Stephen Hahn Cc: Darren J Moffat , Marcel Telka , Joerg Schilling , PSARC-EXT@sun.com, barts@eng.sun.com, Darren.Reed@sun.com, gww@eng.sun.com Message-id: <17847.51094.526008.806655@gargle.gargle.HOWL> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: VM 7.01 under Emacs 21.3.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200701240607.l0O67Z4O023171@marduk.eng.sun.com> <20070124061851.GB27682@eng.sun.com> <45B75FA2.1080504@sun.com> <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45b78b19.UuA5rTidJOnO3/65%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169657347.2419.13.camel@tortuga> <45B78F14.6000003@Sun.COM> <17847.37781.741472.969057@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20070124183623.GB17316@eng.sun.com> Status: RO Content-Length: 2004 Stephen Hahn writes: > The /usr/gnu definition is as precise as I could make it: it's the > set of software on the FSF/UNESCO list that conflicts with things > already present in /usr/bin, plus for completeness, the remaining > executables from each included package that do not conflict (which are > also present in /usr/bin). It's precise but it doesn't seem to correspond to any known environment. The reason /usr/ucb and /usr/xpg* exist is that they correspond to known environments. If you put them on your path, and follow the documented usage rules, then you're emulating (as close as we can manage, obviously) the corresponding environment. FSF/UNESCO itself isn't an environment. Most (all?) of those things appear in many Linux distributions, and appear in BSD distributions as well, but none of those distributions correspond to that list. Thus, my confusion. I don't know what it represents. > Marcel makes a good point, that software could be added to that list > later. In such cases, the conflicting components may have been given > a new location; however, it is incorrect to assume that those > components ended up in /usr/sfw. (As, at the time of ARC proposal, > the name conflict would have had to have been dealt with.) So, if they don't go in /usr/sfw (because we're trying to burn that house down), and they can't go in /usr/bin (because they conflict), and they can't go in /usr/gnu (because they're not on the special list), then we _are_ necessarily setting precident that future open source projects will need to create new paths. That seems unfortunate. We'll end up back in the state where things that Linux users, to whom I think we're bowing here, expect to be in /usr/bin may instead be scattered about the system. -- James Carlson, Solaris Networking Sun Microsystems / 1 Network Drive 71.232W Vox +1 781 442 2084 MS UBUR02-212 / Burlington MA 01803-2757 42.496N Fax +1 781 442 1677 From kyle.mcdonald@bigbandnet.com Wed Jan 24 13:03:23 2007 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0OL3Njq010611 for ; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 13:03:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0OL3HTG014876; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 13:03:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCE00A3D55HRT00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 13:03:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com ([192.18.98.36]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCE007BT55GUU20@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 13:03:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay23.sun.com (relay23.sun.com [192.12.251.54] (may be forged)) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l0OL3FQY016249; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 14:03:15 -0700 (MST) Received: from mms27es.sun.com ([150.143.232.134] [150.143.232.134]) by relay23.sun.com with ESMTP; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 21:03:14 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay21.sun.com (relay21.sun.com [192.12.251.14]) by mms27es.sun.com with ESMTP; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 21:03:13 +0000 (Z) Received: from exprod8og53.obsmtp.com ([64.18.3.88] [64.18.3.88]) by relay21.sun.com; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 21:01:55 +0000 (Z) Received: from source ([65.126.230.68]) by exprod8ob53.obsmtp.com ([64.18.7.12]) with SMTP; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 13:00:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([10.30.8.236]) by wsb-srvr-02.bigbandnet.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 24 Jan 2007 16:00:17 -0500 Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 16:00:16 -0500 From: Kyle McDonald Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <17847.51094.526008.806655@gargle.gargle.HOWL> To: James Carlson Cc: Stephen Hahn , barts@eng.sun.com, Joerg Schilling , gww@eng.sun.com, PSARC-EXT@sun.com, Marcel Telka , darren.reed@sun.com Message-id: <45B7C8E0.9040808@BigBandNet.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200701240607.l0O67Z4O023171@marduk.eng.sun.com> <20070124061851.GB27682@eng.sun.com> <45B75FA2.1080504@sun.com> <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45b78b19.UuA5rTidJOnO3/65%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169657347.2419.13.camel@tortuga> <45B78F14.6000003@Sun.COM> <17847.37781.741472.969057@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20070124183623.GB17316@eng.sun.com> <17847.51094.526008.806655@gargle.gargle.HOWL> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 24 Jan 2007 21:00:17.0740 (UTC) FILETIME=[A6DFB0C0:01C73FFA] Status: RO Content-Length: 418 James Carlson wrote: > That seems unfortunate. We'll end up back in the state where things > that Linux users, to whom I think we're bowing here, expect to be in > /usr/bin may instead be scattered about the system. > I don't think emulating linux is worthwhile at all, but it seems that if that's what is deisre here, naming it /usr/linux might make more sense. yuck... I can't beleive I said that. -Kyle From David.Comay@Sun.COM Wed Jan 24 13:13:18 2007 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0OLDI1r010744 for ; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 13:13:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0OLDCaa011253; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 13:13:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCE00B2V5M1A900@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 13:13:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from izimbra.SFBay.Sun.COM ([129.146.226.141]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCE007HC5M0V120@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 13:13:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by izimbra.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l0OLD2oo004293; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 13:13:02 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 13:13:02 -0800 (PST) From: David.Comay@Sun.COM Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <45B7C8E0.9040808@BigBandNet.COM> Sender: comay@izimbra.SFBay.Sun.COM To: Kyle McDonald Cc: James Carlson , barts@eng.sun.com, PSARC-EXT@Sun.COM, gww@eng.sun.com, Joerg Schilling , Marcel Telka , darren.reed@Sun.COM Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200701240607.l0O67Z4O023171@marduk.eng.sun.com> <20070124061851.GB27682@eng.sun.com> <45B75FA2.1080504@sun.com> <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45b78b19.UuA5rTidJOnO3/65%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169657347.2419.13.camel@tortuga> <45B78F14.6000003@Sun.COM> <17847.37781.741472.969057@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20070124183623.GB17316@eng.sun.com> <17847.51094.526008.806655@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <45B7C8E0.9040808@BigBandNet.COM> Status: RO Content-Length: 529 > I don't think emulating linux is worthwhile at all, but it seems that if > that's what is deisre here, naming it /usr/linux might make more sense. > yuck... I can't beleive I said that. The intent isn't to emulate Linux, per-se, but to provide the tools that many users and software developers expect to be available on a modern operating system. The fact is that there is a growing body of software (and developers creating that software) that expect the GNU toolchain to exist on the system in some form or another. dsc From laca@sun.com Wed Jan 24 13:14:42 2007 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0OLEfmV010765 for ; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 13:14:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0OLEdap016951 for <@sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-EXT@sun.com>; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 13:14:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCE00B115OHBW00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Wed, 24 Jan 2007 13:14:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com ([129.156.42.5]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCE007T15ODUP20@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Wed, 24 Jan 2007 13:14:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from d1-emea-09.sun.com (d1-emea-09.sun.com [192.18.2.119]) by gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l0OLEbo8003849 for ; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 21:14:37 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-emea-09.sun.com by d1-emea-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JCE00H015JNMP00@d1-emea-09.sun.com> (original mail from laca@sun.com) for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Wed, 24 Jan 2007 21:14:37 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [129.150.81.30] by d1-emea-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JCE00MC25OA0JIJ@d1-emea-09.sun.com> for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Wed, 24 Jan 2007 21:14:36 +0000 (GMT) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 16:16:02 -0500 From: "Laszlo (Laca) Peter" Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <45B7C8E0.9040808@BigBandNet.COM> Sender: Laszlo.Peter@sun.com To: Kyle McDonald Cc: PSARC-EXT@sun.com Reply-to: Laszlo.Peter@sun.com Message-id: <1169673362.1569.62.camel@loghost> Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc. MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.8.1.1 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200701240607.l0O67Z4O023171@marduk.eng.sun.com> <20070124061851.GB27682@eng.sun.com> <45B75FA2.1080504@sun.com> <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45b78b19.UuA5rTidJOnO3/65%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169657347.2419.13.camel@tortuga> <45B78F14.6000003@Sun.COM> <17847.37781.741472.969057@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20070124183623.GB17316@eng.sun.com> <17847.51094.526008.806655@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <45B7C8E0.9040808@BigBandNet.COM> Status: RO Content-Length: 317 On Wed, 2007-01-24 at 16:00 -0500, Kyle McDonald wrote: > I don't think emulating linux is worthwhile at all, but it seems that if > that's what is deisre here, naming it /usr/linux might make more sense. "Linux" is the name of a kernel. The command environment used by Linux distributions is mostly GNU. Laca From nw141292@binky.Central.Sun.COM Wed Jan 24 13:31:42 2007 Received: from sunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM (sunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.17]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0OLVgxh010948 for ; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 13:31:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.11.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0OLVcW06051; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 14:31:38 -0700 (MST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCE00C0F6GPC900@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 13:31:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM ([129.153.128.104]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCE007LL6GOUJ30@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 13:31:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0OLVBda019968; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 15:31:11 -0600 (CST) Received: (from nw141292@localhost) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/Submit) id l0OLVB82019967; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 15:31:11 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 15:31:11 -0600 From: Nicolas Williams Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: To: David.Comay@sun.com Cc: Darren Reed , barts@eng.sun.com, Gary Winiger , PSARC-EXT@sun.com Message-id: <20070124213111.GD12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200701240607.l0O67Z4O023171@marduk.eng.sun.com> <20070124061851.GB27682@eng.sun.com> <45B75FA2.1080504@sun.com> <20070124162138.GR12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.7i Status: RO Content-Length: 694 On Wed, Jan 24, 2007 at 12:11:27PM -0800, David.Comay@sun.com wrote: > >I thought the proposal was for pretty much what you suggest. > > One notable exception is the proposal calls out that /usr/gnu is a > fully populated - namely, even if there is no conflicting name in > /usr/bin, there is still a component in /usr/gnu/bin (either > /usr/bin/prog symlinks to /usr/gnu/bin/prog or vice-versa.) This is > different from /usr/xpg[46] which are sparse directories and only > contain conflicting components. That's not how I read this: > In the case that an environment composed of the non-conflicting GNU > components plus the historical variants is desired, > > PATH=/usr/bin:... From carlsonj@phorcys.east.sun.com Wed Jan 24 13:35:41 2007 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0OLZfMq011013 for ; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 13:35:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0OLZcIq015685; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 13:35:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCE007016NFST00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 14:35:39 -0700 (MST) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com ([129.148.174.143]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCE00L1D6NDKGB0@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 14:35:37 -0700 (MST) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l0OLZbc4023966; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 16:35:37 -0500 (EST) Received: (from carlsonj@localhost) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/Submit) id l0OLZbFM023963; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 16:35:37 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 16:35:36 -0500 From: James Carlson Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <1169673362.1569.62.camel@loghost> To: Laszlo.Peter@sun.com Cc: Kyle McDonald , PSARC-EXT@sun.com Message-id: <17847.53544.787890.608786@gargle.gargle.HOWL> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: VM 7.01 under Emacs 21.3.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200701240607.l0O67Z4O023171@marduk.eng.sun.com> <20070124061851.GB27682@eng.sun.com> <45B75FA2.1080504@sun.com> <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45b78b19.UuA5rTidJOnO3/65%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169657347.2419.13.camel@tortuga> <45B78F14.6000003@Sun.COM> <17847.37781.741472.969057@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20070124183623.GB17316@eng.sun.com> <17847.51094.526008.806655@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <45B7C8E0.9040808@BigBandNet.COM> <1169673362.1569.62.camel@loghost> Status: RO Content-Length: 1246 Laszlo (Laca) Peter writes: > On Wed, 2007-01-24 at 16:00 -0500, Kyle McDonald wrote: > > I don't think emulating linux is worthwhile at all, but it seems that if > > that's what is deisre here, naming it /usr/linux might make more sense. > > "Linux" is the name of a kernel. It's also the name used by distributions, which contain hundreds of packages that are _not_ the kernel. This is why I mentioned distributions in my previous reply. > The command environment used by > Linux distributions is mostly GNU. The part I'm sticking on is the word "mostly." If the assertion here is that the definition of /usr/gnu put forward is in fact sufficient to satisfy the needs of Linux refugees arriving on Solaris shores, then I'm rather surprised, but I'll reluctantly go along with the proposal. If that's not the assertion, and if all we're building is an FSF-purist garden, then I fail to see the point. Linux users will be offered a bewildering array of /usr/gnu, /usr/schilly, /usr/moz, /usr/expat, and others. -- James Carlson, Solaris Networking Sun Microsystems / 1 Network Drive 71.232W Vox +1 781 442 2084 MS UBUR02-212 / Burlington MA 01803-2757 42.496N Fax +1 781 442 1677 From kyle.mcdonald@bigbandnet.com Wed Jan 24 13:36:40 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0OLad2r011030 for ; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 13:36:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0OLaZwa004041; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 21:36:38 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCE008036OY0N00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 14:36:34 -0700 (MST) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com ([192.18.98.36]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCE00L7R6OXKGB0@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 14:36:34 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay11.sun.com (relay11.sun.com [217.140.40.14] (may be forged)) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l0OLaXJr004778; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 14:36:33 -0700 (MST) Received: from mms11es.sun.com ([160.41.223.14] [160.41.223.14]) by relay11.sun.com with ESMTP; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 21:36:32 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay13.sun.com (relay13.sun.com [217.140.40.54]) by mms11es.sun.com with ESMTP; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 21:36:32 +0000 (Z) Received: from exprod8og58.obsmtp.com ([64.18.3.98] [64.18.3.98]) by relay13.sun.com; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 21:36:32 +0000 (Z) Received: from source ([65.126.230.68]) by exprod8ob58.obsmtp.com ([64.18.7.12]) with SMTP; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 13:36:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([10.30.8.236]) by wsb-srvr-02.bigbandnet.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 24 Jan 2007 16:36:30 -0500 Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 16:36:30 -0500 From: Kyle McDonald Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <1169673362.1569.62.camel@loghost> To: Laszlo.Peter@sun.com Cc: PSARC-EXT@sun.com Message-id: <45B7D15E.6070708@BigBandNet.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200701240607.l0O67Z4O023171@marduk.eng.sun.com> <20070124061851.GB27682@eng.sun.com> <45B75FA2.1080504@sun.com> <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45b78b19.UuA5rTidJOnO3/65%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169657347.2419.13.camel@tortuga> <45B78F14.6000003@Sun.COM> <17847.37781.741472.969057@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20070124183623.GB17316@eng.sun.com> <17847.51094.526008.806655@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <45B7C8E0.9040808@BigBandNet.COM> <1169673362.1569.62.camel@loghost> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 24 Jan 2007 21:36:30.0597 (UTC) FILETIME=[B5FF5B50:01C73FFF] Status: RO Content-Length: 821 Laszlo (Laca) Peter wrote: > On Wed, 2007-01-24 at 16:00 -0500, Kyle McDonald wrote: > >> I don't think emulating linux is worthwhile at all, but it seems that if >> that's what is deisre here, naming it /usr/linux might make more sense. >> > > "Linux" is the name of a kernel. The command environment used by > Linux distributions is mostly GNU. > > Laca > A 'Linux Distribution' contains a linux kernel, and alot of software. Some of which is GNU. It seems that if what developers are looking for is what they find on linux, and if all the things they find on linux are not always GNU, then calling it /usr/linux will probably make the most people happy. I understand the desire to attract developers. I just can't get used to putting a bad make-up job on Solaris. It's my problem I know. -Kyle From Torrey.McMahon@sun.com Wed Jan 24 14:15:23 2007 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0OMFNDX012109 for ; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 14:15:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0OMFKIm023283 for <@sunmail1brm.central.sun.com:PSARC-EXT@sun.com>; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 14:15:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCE00C0F8HMS200@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Wed, 24 Jan 2007 15:15:22 -0700 (MST) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.98.31]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCE00BE38HL1900@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Wed, 24 Jan 2007 15:15:21 -0700 (MST) Received: from fe-amer-03.sun.com ([192.18.108.177]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l0OMFL8i013907 for ; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 15:15:21 -0700 (MST) Received: from conversion-daemon.mail-amer.sun.com by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JCE00I017YGVO00@mail-amer.sun.com> (original mail from Torrey.McMahon@Sun.COM) for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Wed, 24 Jan 2007 15:15:21 -0700 (MST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([69.143.27.128]) by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JCE00LTK8HKE9D8@mail-amer.sun.com> for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Wed, 24 Jan 2007 15:15:21 -0700 (MST) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 17:15:50 -0500 From: Torrey McMahon Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <17847.53544.787890.608786@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Sender: Torrey.McMahon@sun.com To: James Carlson Cc: Laszlo.Peter@sun.com, Kyle McDonald , PSARC-EXT@sun.com Message-id: <45B7DA96.60902@sun.com> Organization: Sun Microsystems Inc. MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200701240607.l0O67Z4O023171@marduk.eng.sun.com> <20070124061851.GB27682@eng.sun.com> <45B75FA2.1080504@sun.com> <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45b78b19.UuA5rTidJOnO3/65%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169657347.2419.13.camel@tortuga> <45B78F14.6000003@Sun.COM> <17847.37781.741472.969057@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20070124183623.GB17316@eng.sun.com> <17847.51094.526008.806655@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <45B7C8E0.9040808@BigBandNet.COM> <1169673362.1569.62.camel@loghost> <17847.53544.787890.608786@gargle.gargle.HOWL> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) Status: RO Content-Length: 412 James Carlson wrote: > > If that's not the assertion, and if all we're building is an > FSF-purist garden, then I fail to see the point. Linux users will be > offered a bewildering array of /usr/gnu, /usr/schilly, /usr/moz, > /usr/expat, and others. I saw we find all the versions the linux distros deploy, put those in /usr/bin, and then place all of our old "legacy stuff" in /usr/solaris. Any takers? ;-) From jek3@sun.com Wed Jan 24 14:34:35 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0OMYYK4012836 for ; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 14:34:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0OMYSn0020581; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 22:34:32 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCE00F019DJ8500@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 15:34:31 -0700 (MST) Received: from jurassic.eng.sun.com ([129.146.68.36]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCE00B2J9DI1J20@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 15:34:30 -0700 (MST) Received: from [129.150.12.53] (vpn-129-150-12-53.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.12.53]) by jurassic.eng.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l0OMYCAm988357; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 14:34:27 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 12:32:31 -1000 From: Joseph Kowalski Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> To: Marcel Telka Cc: Joerg Schilling , sch@eng.sun.com, Darren.Reed@sun.com, PSARC-EXT@sun.com, gww@eng.sun.com, barts@eng.sun.com Message-id: <45B7DE7F.705@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_3OF2YucnUF7/R4rXygLEMA)" X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200701240607.l0O67Z4O023171@marduk.eng.sun.com> <20070124061851.GB27682@eng.sun.com> <45B75FA2.1080504@sun.com> <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060925) Status: RO Content-Length: 5501 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_3OF2YucnUF7/R4rXygLEMA) Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Marcel Telka wrote: > On Wed, 2007-01-24 at 17:07 +0100, Joerg Schilling wrote: > >> Darren Reed wrote: >> >> >>> /usr/sfw was fairly straightforward - where we installed software that >>> was bundled but not part of ON. This was problematic for many because >>> the default paths of various environments do not include /usr/sfw. >>> Not quite. It was software we weren't willing to support as Stable/Committed because the specification was controlled by an outside body. It was placed in a separate directory because we wanted it to be an "opt-in" choice to have access to such utilities. Many components in /usr/bin (or /usr/*/bin, such as /usr/dt/bin) aren't part of ON. The main reason that sfw is a different consolidation than ON lies more in sfw not wanting to conform to ON's rather stringent build policies. >> For me, it would be important not to confuse /usr/sfw with /usr/gnu >> and to only put GNU (FSF) software into /usr/gnu and not arbitrary free >> software (even though this software may be under the GPL). >> > > If I understand it correctly you want to put GNU software into /usr/gnu > and non-GNU software under /usr/sfw. Then the question is what we will > do in case when some non-GNU software (placed in our /usr/sfw) becomes a > GNU software? Will we move the software into /usr/gnu or not? > We want to start putting all user utilities with non-conflicting names into /usr/bin. Death to sfw! We intend to make the stability commitment clear on the man pages (and not by PATH) - this is why all of these utilities are required to have a (perhaps tiny) man page - only a synopsis, attributes section and pointer to other documentation are required. Only the name conflicted gnu utilities need to go into /usr/gnu/bin. Just like /usr/xpg4/bin! I'd hope that all the name conflicted utilities in /usr/sfw/bin are gnu, so that we can first turn /usr/sfw into just a bunch of symlinks and eventually get rid of it altogether. So speaks the man who created (in concept; don't blame me for the name) /usr/sfw. It seemed like a good idea at the time and was demanded (in concept) by very senior folk. - jek3 --Boundary_(ID_3OF2YucnUF7/R4rXygLEMA) Content-type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Marcel Telka wrote: 
On Wed, 2007-01-24 at 17:07 +0100, Joerg Schilling wrote:
  
Darren Reed <Darren.Reed@Sun.COM> wrote:

    
/usr/sfw was fairly straightforward - where we installed software that
was bundled but not part of ON.  This was problematic for many because
the default paths of various environments do not include /usr/sfw.
Not quite.  It was software we weren't willing to support as Stable/Committed because the
specification was controlled by an outside body.  It was placed in a separate directory because
we wanted it to be an "opt-in" choice to have access to such utilities.

Many components in /usr/bin (or /usr/*/bin, such as /usr/dt/bin) aren't part of ON.

The main reason that sfw is a different consolidation than ON lies more in sfw not
wanting to conform to ON's rather stringent build policies.
For me, it would be important not to confuse /usr/sfw with /usr/gnu
and to only put GNU (FSF) software into /usr/gnu and not arbitrary free
software (even though this software may be under the GPL).
    

If I understand it correctly you want to put GNU software into /usr/gnu
and non-GNU software under /usr/sfw. Then the question is what we will
do in case when some non-GNU software (placed in our /usr/sfw) becomes a
GNU software? Will we move the software into /usr/gnu or not?
We want to start putting all user utilities with non-conflicting names into /usr/bin.
Death to sfw!  We intend to make the stability commitment clear on the man pages
(and not by PATH) - this is why all of these utilities are required to have a (perhaps
tiny) man page - only a synopsis, attributes section and pointer to other documentation
are required.

Only the name conflicted gnu utilities need to go into /usr/gnu/bin.  Just like /usr/xpg4/bin!

I'd hope that all the name conflicted utilities in /usr/sfw/bin are gnu, so that we can first
turn /usr/sfw into just a bunch of symlinks and eventually get rid of it altogether.

So speaks the man who created (in concept; don't blame me for the name) /usr/sfw.

It seemed like a good idea at the time and was demanded (in concept) by very senior folk.

- jek3


--Boundary_(ID_3OF2YucnUF7/R4rXygLEMA)-- From jek3@sun.com Wed Jan 24 14:38:19 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0OMcIBn012857 for ; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 14:38:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0OMc4Fi013537; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 06:38:13 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCE00H059JN7K00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 14:38:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from jurassic.eng.sun.com ([129.146.224.130]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCE007D09JNV070@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 14:38:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from [129.150.12.53] (vpn-129-150-12-53.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.12.53]) by jurassic.eng.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l0OMbxWj989518; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 14:38:04 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 12:36:18 -1000 From: Joseph Kowalski Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <45B78B67.2090600@Sun.Com> To: John Plocher Cc: Marcel Telka , Joerg Schilling , PSARC-EXT@sun.com, barts@eng.sun.com, Darren.Reed@sun.com, gww@eng.sun.com Message-id: <45B7DF62.2090002@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200701240607.l0O67Z4O023171@marduk.eng.sun.com> <20070124061851.GB27682@eng.sun.com> <45B75FA2.1080504@sun.com> <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45B78B67.2090600@Sun.Com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060925) Status: RO Content-Length: 430 John Plocher wrote: > Things would go into /usr/gnu only if the name of the executable > conflicted with one already in /usr/bin. > > Same for /usr/sfw, though historically, this has not been well > understood or followed.... Not that simple. At the inception of /usr/sfw, utilites which we didn't control the specification for (and weren't truly standard) were relegated to /usr/sfw even if the name didn't conflict. - jek3 From jek3@sun.com Wed Jan 24 14:43:03 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0OMh2Eb012924 for ; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 14:43:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0OMgYW0022840; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 22:42:58 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCE00H179RJKO00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 14:42:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from jurassic.eng.sun.com ([129.146.58.37]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCE007IH9RJUL60@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 14:42:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from [129.150.12.53] (vpn-129-150-12-53.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.12.53]) by jurassic.eng.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l0OMghRB991305; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 14:42:43 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 12:41:04 -1000 From: Joseph Kowalski Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <1169658038.2419.19.camel@tortuga> To: Marcel Telka Cc: Bart Smaalders , Joerg Schilling , PSARC-EXT@sun.com, barts@eng.sun.com, Darren.Reed@sun.com, gww@eng.sun.com Message-id: <45B7E080.5000809@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200701240607.l0O67Z4O023171@marduk.eng.sun.com> <20070124061851.GB27682@eng.sun.com> <45B75FA2.1080504@sun.com> <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45B78E38.6080003@Sun.COM> <1169658038.2419.19.camel@tortuga> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060925) Status: RO Content-Length: 534 Marcel Telka wrote: > One example: ls > > 1. Our implementation is in /usr/bin > 2. GNU implementation should be in /usr/gnu > 3. Another free (maybe GPLed, not mandatory) implementation should > go ... where? > Great example. Consider that we have /usr/ucb/ls. This is only an issue for alternate implementation of well known UNIX utilities. Since Linux wants to dump everything in /usr/bin (over 4000 entries on RH4, last time I looked), this isn't an issue for j-random software. The FOSS developers know better. - jek3 From jek3@sun.com Wed Jan 24 14:50:17 2007 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0OMoHVJ013198 for ; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 14:50:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0OMoFkl029846; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 14:50:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCE00I09A3P4300@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 14:50:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from jurassic.eng.sun.com ([129.146.106.105]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCE0072GA3PV180@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 14:50:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from [129.150.12.53] (vpn-129-150-12-53.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.12.53]) by jurassic.eng.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l0OMoBdv993666; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 14:50:11 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 12:48:33 -1000 From: Joseph Kowalski Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: To: David.Comay@sun.com Cc: Nicolas Williams , Darren Reed , barts@eng.sun.com, Gary Winiger , PSARC-EXT@sun.com Message-id: <45B7E241.7030309@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200701240607.l0O67Z4O023171@marduk.eng.sun.com> <20070124061851.GB27682@eng.sun.com> <45B75FA2.1080504@sun.com> <20070124162138.GR12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060925) Status: RO Content-Length: 1065 David.Comay@sun.com wrote: >>> I would be tempted to say that the architecture for /usr/gnu should >>> be that unless Sun provides a command with a similar name, programs >>> should always be installed into /usr/bin, not /usr/gnu/bin, except >>> in the case of those with a 'g' prefix - 'g' version in /usr/bin, >>> non-'g' version in /usr/gnu/bin. This way people aren't required >>> to modify their default environment in order to access the extra >>> tools available. Otherwise we're just reinventing the /usr/sfw/bin >>> problem but with a new name. >> >> I thought the proposal was for pretty much what you suggest. > > One notable exception is the proposal calls out that /usr/gnu is a > fully populated - namely, even if there is no conflicting name in > /usr/bin, there is still a component in /usr/gnu/bin (either > /usr/bin/prog symlinks to /usr/gnu/bin/prog or vice-versa.) This is > different from /usr/xpg[46] which are sparse directories and only > contain conflicting components. I missed this. Why? (Its also different from /usr/ucb.) - jek3 From David.Comay@sun.com Wed Jan 24 15:10:32 2007 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0ONAWlZ013978 for ; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 15:10:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0ONASSZ008953; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 15:10:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCE0040BB1GS800@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 15:10:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from izimbra.SFBay.Sun.COM ([129.146.226.141]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCE001DIB1ESIB0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 15:10:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by izimbra.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l0ONAQlC004486; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 15:10:26 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 15:10:26 -0800 (PST) From: David.Comay@sun.com Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <20070124213111.GD12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> Sender: comay@izimbra.SFBay.Sun.COM To: Nicolas Williams , Stephen.Hahn@sun.com Cc: Darren Reed , barts@eng.sun.com, Gary Winiger , PSARC-EXT@sun.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200701240607.l0O67Z4O023171@marduk.eng.sun.com> <20070124061851.GB27682@eng.sun.com> <45B75FA2.1080504@sun.com> <20070124162138.GR12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <20070124213111.GD12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> Status: RO Content-Length: 1709 >> One notable exception is the proposal calls out that /usr/gnu is a >> fully populated - namely, even if there is no conflicting name in >> /usr/bin, there is still a component in /usr/gnu/bin (either >> /usr/bin/prog symlinks to /usr/gnu/bin/prog or vice-versa.) This is >> different from /usr/xpg[46] which are sparse directories and only >> contain conflicting components. > > That's not how I read this: > >> In the case that an environment composed of the non-conflicting GNU >> components plus the historical variants is desired, >> >> PATH=/usr/bin:... It's true in that case that /usr/bin will provide an environment of the non-conflicting GNU components plus the legacy. But I believe the intent of the proposal was to also link in those non-conflicting components under /usr/gnu/bin as well. But I may very well be confused as there was a flurry of discussion around this point on the OpenSolaris sfwnv-discuss list and perhaps that didn't get added to the proposal. I believe the relevant paragraph from the proposal is Extended discussion led to an aesthetic preference for a complete environment, in which all components of the installed upstream package were in their normal locations within /usr/gnu. (We return to this point briefly in Section 2.5.) Although an environment could be further modified to be a full alternative commands environment, that aspect is left to a future case. Stephen, is the intent for this case that non-conflicting GNU programs live both in /usr/bin/myprog and /usr/gnu/bin/myprog or just the former? Personally, I prefer the /usr/xpg[46] approach but I thought others were arguing for both name-spaces. dsc From David.Comay@sun.com Wed Jan 24 15:16:55 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0ONGsQx014116 for ; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 15:16:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0ONGloo022963; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 07:16:49 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCE00K2DBBZ6X00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 15:16:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from izimbra.SFBay.Sun.COM ([129.146.226.141]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCE007PEBBVV190@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 15:16:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by izimbra.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l0ONGheF004505; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 15:16:43 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 15:16:43 -0800 (PST) From: David.Comay@sun.com Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <45B7E241.7030309@sun.com> Sender: comay@izimbra.SFBay.Sun.COM To: Joseph Kowalski Cc: Nicolas Williams , Darren Reed , barts@eng.sun.com, Gary Winiger , PSARC-EXT@sun.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200701240607.l0O67Z4O023171@marduk.eng.sun.com> <20070124061851.GB27682@eng.sun.com> <45B75FA2.1080504@sun.com> <20070124162138.GR12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B7E241.7030309@sun.com> Status: RO Content-Length: 812 >> One notable exception is the proposal calls out that /usr/gnu is a >> fully populated - namely, even if there is no conflicting name in >> /usr/bin, there is still a component in /usr/gnu/bin (either >> /usr/bin/prog symlinks to /usr/gnu/bin/prog or vice-versa.) This is >> different from /usr/xpg[46] which are sparse directories and only >> contain conflicting components. > I missed this. > > Why? > > (Its also different from /usr/ucb.) Indeed it is. But it's also possible that I've misinterpreted the proposal on this point. If you want to see the OpenSolaris discussion regarding this, the thread which Stephen referenced in the proposal is http://www.opensolaris.org/jive/thread.jspa?threadID=20197 and in particular, http://www.opensolaris.org/jive/message.jspa?messageID=78579#78579 dsc From schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de Wed Jan 24 15:32:27 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0ONWP0a014488 for ; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 15:32:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0ONVuSS026864; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 07:32:21 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCE00K03C1SZD00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 15:32:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com ([192.18.98.36]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCE007FFC1SUU80@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 15:32:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay42i.sun.com ([192.5.209.72]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l0ONUPUu005295; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 16:32:15 -0700 (MST) Received: from mms48es.sun.com ([160.41.221.231] [160.41.221.231]) by relay42i.sun.com with ESMTP; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 23:32:15 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay42i.sun.com ([192.5.209.72] [192.5.209.72]) by mms48es.sun.com with ESMTP; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 23:32:15 +0000 (Z) Received: from mailhub.fokus.fraunhofer.de ([193.174.154.14] [193.174.154.14]) by relay4i.sun.com with ESMTP; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 23:32:14 +0000 (Z) Received: from burner.fokus.fraunhofer.de (burner [10.147.65.166]) by mailhub.fokus.fraunhofer.de (8.11.6p2/8.11.6) with ESMTP id l0ONWD928399; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 00:32:13 +0100 (MET) Received: (from jes@localhost) by burner.fokus.fraunhofer.de (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/Submit) id l0ONUHf5011298; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 00:30:17 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 00:30:17 +0100 From: Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (Joerg Schilling) Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <45B7DA96.60902@sun.com> Sender: schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de To: Torrey.McMahon@sun.com, James.D.Carlson@sun.com Cc: PSARC-EXT@sun.com Message-id: <45b7ec09.Bb/ZrZhm4OnJ6Mhx%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200701240607.l0O67Z4O023171@marduk.eng.sun.com> <20070124061851.GB27682@eng.sun.com> <45B75FA2.1080504@sun.com> <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45b78b19.UuA5rTidJOnO3/65%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169657347.2419.13.camel@tortuga> <45B78F14.6000003@Sun.COM> <17847.37781.741472.969057@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20070124183623.GB17316@eng.sun.com> <17847.51094.526008.806655@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <45B7C8E0.9040808@BigBandNet.COM> <1169673362.1569.62.camel@loghost> <17847.53544.787890.608786@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <45B7DA96.60902@sun.com> User-Agent: nail 11.22 3/20/05 Status: RO Content-Length: 912 Torrey McMahon wrote: > James Carlson wrote: > > > > If that's not the assertion, and if all we're building is an > > FSF-purist garden, then I fail to see the point. Linux users will be > > offered a bewildering array of /usr/gnu, /usr/schilly, /usr/moz, > > /usr/expat, and others. > > I saw we find all the versions the linux distros deploy, put those in > /usr/bin, and then place all of our old "legacy stuff" in /usr/solaris. > Any takers? ;-) Do you like to give up OpenSolaris? A reason to stay with Solaris for a long time was the availabiltiy of the original UNIX tools. Jörg -- EMail:joerg@schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin js@cs.tu-berlin.de (uni) schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily From schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de Wed Jan 24 16:04:59 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0P04wgd015328 for ; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 16:04:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0P04tRA015238; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 00:04:56 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCE00D2TDK55500@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 16:04:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.98.43]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCE00CK8DJNRY10@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 16:04:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay21.sun.com (relay21.sun.com [192.12.251.14] (may be forged)) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l0P04YIV027762; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 17:04:35 -0700 (MST) Received: from mms26es.sun.com ([150.143.232.114] [150.143.232.114]) by relay21.sun.com with ESMTP; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 00:04:34 +0000 (Z) Received: from mms23bas.mms.us.syntegra.com (mms23bas.mms.us.syntegra.com [192.12.251.50]) by mms26es.sun.com with ESMTP; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 00:04:34 +0000 (Z) Received: from mailhub.fokus.fraunhofer.de ([193.174.154.14] [193.174.154.14]) by relay23.sun.com with ESMTP; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 00:04:33 +0000 (Z) Received: from burner.fokus.fraunhofer.de (burner [10.147.65.166]) by mailhub.fokus.fraunhofer.de (8.11.6p2/8.11.6) with ESMTP id l0P04W900692; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 01:04:32 +0100 (MET) Received: (from jes@localhost) by burner.fokus.fraunhofer.de (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/Submit) id l0P02aqS011304; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 01:02:36 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 01:02:36 +0100 From: Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (Joerg Schilling) Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <45B7DA96.60902@sun.com> Sender: schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de To: Torrey.McMahon@sun.com, James.D.Carlson@sun.com Cc: PSARC-EXT@sun.com Message-id: <45b7f39c.yRY9joX2ag8NQVb3%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200701240607.l0O67Z4O023171@marduk.eng.sun.com> <20070124061851.GB27682@eng.sun.com> <45B75FA2.1080504@sun.com> <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45b78b19.UuA5rTidJOnO3/65%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169657347.2419.13.camel@tortuga> <45B78F14.6000003@Sun.COM> <17847.37781.741472.969057@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20070124183623.GB17316@eng.sun.com> <17847.51094.526008.806655@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <45B7C8E0.9040808@BigBandNet.COM> <1169673362.1569.62.camel@loghost> <17847.53544.787890.608786@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <45B7DA96.60902@sun.com> User-Agent: nail 11.22 3/20/05 Status: RO Content-Length: 2888 Let me take this thread to start thinking about a Solaris problem. Feel free to direct this to a more apropriate mailing list... During the past weeks, I was creating a higly portable bundle of software around SCCS. It turns out that I needed to bundle "bdiff" and "diff" with SCCS in order to grant unlimited line length support and to make sure that there is no incorrect switch to "binary" diff mode. It turns out that the Sun SCCS source was the best available source compared to other SCCS sources floating around (e.g. partly legal sources from the CSRG CDs). Sun did a great job with allowing unlimited line length and by making sure that there are no possible buffer overflows.... on the other side, SCCS (and even diff) was in a desasterous state compared with actively maintained software that has been converted to be highly portable. The Sun tooochest has a big value and it has a big future potential. Don't ever think about giving it up, but _we_ (the OpenSolaris community) need to find a way to overhoul it. - SCCS has been converted by Sun to use getopt() and getopt() is not a high quality finction. It is far way from being able to correctly replace hand written option parsers. Similar deficits are in GNU getopt_long(). As a result, admin(1) has been broken and did (as a result of another bug) not allow an "empty MR list" at all (although documented). After fixing this bug, it does still suffer from the fact that getopt(argc, argv, "m:"); does not allow "-m" as -m with no arg but only -m "". Such problems could be solved with my getargs() which implements a richer set of formats and allows e.g. to enforce a space between the option and the parameter or to enforce no space. - diff/diffh have not been large file clean. diff cannot be made 100% large file aware (as it tries to allocate too much data for a 32 bit program) but a 64 bit variant could be 100% large file clean. Why has this not been done alrady? - Not all the code uses clean prototypes in include files. - Ther are a lot of other small problems that should be discussed... In general, it seems as if nobody did look at tradtional UNIX tools in order to try to enhance them on a regular base as it has been done 25+ years ago. This is the real reason why many people prefer GNU tools at some places. But although there are several such problems, the potential of the UNIX sources is still mostly higher than the potential of the corresponding GNU tools. We should keep out UNIX tools and find a way to properly enhance them to make them ready for the future. Jörg -- EMail:joerg@schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin js@cs.tu-berlin.de (uni) schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily From jek3@sun.com Wed Jan 24 16:38:31 2007 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0P0cVQp015617 for ; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 16:38:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0P0cSLw023505; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 16:38:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCE00705F45AX00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 17:38:29 -0700 (MST) Received: from jurassic.eng.sun.com ([129.146.56.144]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCE00B09F441690@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 17:38:29 -0700 (MST) Received: from [129.150.12.53] (vpn-129-150-12-53.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.12.53]) by jurassic.eng.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l0P0cKdT139055; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 16:38:20 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 14:36:37 -1000 From: Joseph Kowalski Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <45b7f39c.yRY9joX2ag8NQVb3%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> To: Joerg Schilling Cc: Torrey.McMahon@sun.com, James.D.Carlson@sun.com, PSARC-EXT@sun.com Message-id: <45B7FB95.3090700@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200701240607.l0O67Z4O023171@marduk.eng.sun.com> <20070124061851.GB27682@eng.sun.com> <45B75FA2.1080504@sun.com> <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45b78b19.UuA5rTidJOnO3/65%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169657347.2419.13.camel@tortuga> <45B78F14.6000003@Sun.COM> <17847.37781.741472.969057@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20070124183623.GB17316@eng.sun.com> <17847.51094.526008.806655@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <45B7C8E0.9040808@BigBandNet.COM> <1169673362.1569.62.camel@loghost> <17847.53544.787890.608786@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <45B7DA96.60902@sun.com> <45b7f39c.yRY9joX2ag8NQVb3%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060925) Status: RO Content-Length: 2941 Joerg Schilling wrote: > The Sun tooochest has a big value and it has a big future potential. > Don't ever think about giving it up, but _we_ (the OpenSolaris community) > need to find a way to overhoul it. > I think we all agree this is good. The devil lies in the details about how to best make this happen. BTW: I think the short term gains made by OpenSolaris will be in userland (and device support), simply because we've not spent enough resources on it and the learning curve on the kernel (and to be honest, kernel politics - IMHO) is rather steep. (Its not that the politics will exclude anyone, its just that the politics *and* the code have steep learning curves.) > - SCCS has been converted by Sun to use getopt() and getopt() is > not a high quality finction. It is far way from being able to > correctly replace hand written option parsers. Similar deficits are in > GNU getopt_long(). > > As a result, admin(1) has been broken and did (as a result of another > bug) not allow an "empty MR list" at all (although documented). After > fixing this bug, it does still suffer from the fact that > > getopt(argc, argv, "m:"); > > does not allow "-m" as -m with no arg but only -m "". > If I read this right, what you are suggesting is adding a bug. getopts is quite explicit that optional option arguments are not allowed. There is good reason for this. Consider the synopsis: foo [ -m [option-arg-for-m] ] file ... Now, take the example: foo -m foo bar Is foo the option argument for -m or one of the file operands? Its ambiguous. GNU's command line definitions allow this and commands are left to heiristically resolve the ambiguity. We don't go there. There is even a lengthy discussion around the CLIP standard as to why this is. We do not desire ambiguous command lines. > Such problems could be solved with my getargs() which implements > a richer set of formats and allows e.g. to enforce a space > between the option and the parameter or to enforce no space. > As it so happens, I'm probably the guy to historically talk to about getopts. However, I'm not sure that we want a richer set of formats. We want something that forces the caller (as much as possible) to the getopts standard we adhear to which is a slight extension to that from the SUS standards. Of course, behind all this is the fact that there are just about as many command line format preferences as there are programmers in the world, perhaps more. Couple that with a dirth of actual research and this become a ripe area for bar room discussions. Some old but real research (customer polls) done by Kathy Hemmingway when she was at AT&T yielded an overwhelming answer: "We really don't care what it (the standard) is, but we want one and we want it to be consisantly applied". We try to follow this dictum. That's why strict getopt conformance is strongly encouraged. - jek3 From Marcel.Telka@sun.com Thu Jan 25 01:12:32 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0P9CUkZ023198 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 01:12:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0P9CBb8007537 for <@sunmail1brm.central.sun.com:PSARC-EXT@sun.com>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 17:12:29 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCF00M092WRC800@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Thu, 25 Jan 2007 02:12:27 -0700 (MST) Received: from gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com ([129.156.42.5]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCF000VR2WI6Y60@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Thu, 25 Jan 2007 02:12:27 -0700 (MST) Received: from d1-emea-09.sun.com (d1-emea-09.sun.com [192.18.2.119]) by gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l0P9CIxQ002670 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 09:12:18 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-emea-09.sun.com by d1-emea-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JCF00D012VQCM00@d1-emea-09.sun.com> (original mail from Marcel.Telka@Sun.COM) for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Thu, 25 Jan 2007 09:12:18 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [129.157.71.66] by d1-emea-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JCF00M7X2WH0JCK@d1-emea-09.sun.com> for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Thu, 25 Jan 2007 09:12:17 +0000 (GMT) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 10:12:17 +0100 From: Marcel Telka Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <45B7D15E.6070708@BigBandNet.COM> Sender: Marcel.Telka@sun.com To: Kyle McDonald Cc: PSARC-EXT@sun.com Message-id: <1169716337.4335.3.camel@tortuga> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.8.1.1 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200701240607.l0O67Z4O023171@marduk.eng.sun.com> <20070124061851.GB27682@eng.sun.com> <45B75FA2.1080504@sun.com> <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45b78b19.UuA5rTidJOnO3/65%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169657347.2419.13.camel@tortuga> <45B78F14.6000003@Sun.COM> <17847.37781.741472.969057@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20070124183623.GB17316@eng.sun.com> <17847.51094.526008.806655@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <45B7C8E0.9040808@BigBandNet.COM> <1169673362.1569.62.camel@loghost> <45B7D15E.6070708@BigBandNet.COM> Status: RO Content-Length: 1226 On Wed, 2007-01-24 at 16:36 -0500, Kyle McDonald wrote: > Laszlo (Laca) Peter wrote: > > On Wed, 2007-01-24 at 16:00 -0500, Kyle McDonald wrote: > > > >> I don't think emulating linux is worthwhile at all, but it seems that if > >> that's what is deisre here, naming it /usr/linux might make more sense. > >> > > > > "Linux" is the name of a kernel. The command environment used by > > Linux distributions is mostly GNU. > > > > Laca > > > A 'Linux Distribution' contains a linux kernel, and alot of software. > Some of which is GNU. There is not something like THE Linux Distribution, so you could not create something like /usr/linux. If you want to follow this schema you should create something like /usr/rh4, /usr/suse9, /usr/debian3, /usr/myown-nongnubased-linux-distro. We probably do not want this :-). > > It seems that if what developers are looking for is what they find on > linux, and if all the things they find on linux are not always GNU, then > calling it /usr/linux will probably make the most people happy. > > I understand the desire to attract developers. I just can't get used to > putting a bad make-up job on Solaris. > It's my problem I know. > > -Kyle > > -- Marcel Telka From Mark.Phalan@sun.com Thu Jan 25 01:43:41 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0P9heIf023505 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 01:43:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0P9hRm8014966 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-EXT@sun.com>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 17:43:39 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCF006034CMXZ00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Thu, 25 Jan 2007 01:43:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com ([129.156.42.5]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCF00MKM4CL2LA0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Thu, 25 Jan 2007 01:43:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from d1-emea-09.sun.com (d1-emea-09.sun.com [192.18.2.119]) by gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l0P9hWxI008941 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 09:43:33 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-emea-09.sun.com by d1-emea-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JCF00F0145YPR00@d1-emea-09.sun.com> (original mail from Mark.Phalan@Sun.COM) for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Thu, 25 Jan 2007 09:43:32 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [129.157.18.58] by d1-emea-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JCF00MHV4CJ09PD@d1-emea-09.sun.com> for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Thu, 25 Jan 2007 09:43:32 +0000 (GMT) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 10:41:17 +0100 From: Mark Phalan Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <1169716337.4335.3.camel@tortuga> Sender: Mark.Phalan@sun.com To: Marcel Telka Cc: Kyle McDonald , PSARC-EXT@sun.com Message-id: <1169718077.27304.12.camel@phalan> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.8.1.1 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200701240607.l0O67Z4O023171@marduk.eng.sun.com> <20070124061851.GB27682@eng.sun.com> <45B75FA2.1080504@sun.com> <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45b78b19.UuA5rTidJOnO3/65%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169657347.2419.13.camel@tortuga> <45B78F14.6000003@Sun.COM> <17847.37781.741472.969057@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20070124183623.GB17316@eng.sun.com> <17847.51094.526008.806655@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <45B7C8E0.9040808@BigBandNet.COM> <1169673362.1569.62.camel@loghost> <45B7D15E.6070708@BigBandNet.COM> <1169716337.4335.3.camel@tortuga> Status: RO Content-Length: 1526 On Thu, 2007-01-25 at 10:12 +0100, Marcel Telka wrote: > On Wed, 2007-01-24 at 16:36 -0500, Kyle McDonald wrote: > > Laszlo (Laca) Peter wrote: > > > On Wed, 2007-01-24 at 16:00 -0500, Kyle McDonald wrote: > > > > > >> I don't think emulating linux is worthwhile at all, but it seems that if > > >> that's what is deisre here, naming it /usr/linux might make more sense. > > >> > > > > > > "Linux" is the name of a kernel. The command environment used by > > > Linux distributions is mostly GNU. > > > > > > Laca > > > > > A 'Linux Distribution' contains a linux kernel, and alot of software. > > Some of which is GNU. > > There is not something like THE Linux Distribution, so you could not > create something like /usr/linux. If you want to follow this schema you > should create something > like /usr/rh4, /usr/suse9, /usr/debian3, /usr/myown-nongnubased-linux-distro. We probably do not want this :-). > What about using the LSB (http://www.linux-foundation.org/en/Specifications)? It has a section on commands and utilities. Would that buy us anything? i.e. having something like "/usr/lsb". -M > > > > It seems that if what developers are looking for is what they find on > > linux, and if all the things they find on linux are not always GNU, then > > calling it /usr/linux will probably make the most people happy. > > > > I understand the desire to attract developers. I just can't get used to > > putting a bad make-up job on Solaris. > > It's my problem I know. > > > > -Kyle > > > > From Darren.Moffat@Sun.COM Thu Jan 25 03:27:11 2007 Received: from sunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM (sunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.17]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0PBRB3t025274 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 03:27:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.11.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0PBRAT21186 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-EXT@sun.com>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 04:27:10 -0700 (MST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCF00201959DM00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Thu, 25 Jan 2007 03:27:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com ([129.156.42.5]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCF00MHY9583KE0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Thu, 25 Jan 2007 03:27:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from d1-emea-10.sun.com (d1-emea-10.sun.com [192.18.2.120]) by gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l0PBR8vK029180 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 11:27:08 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-emea-10.sun.com by d1-emea-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JCF0060194R7U00@d1-emea-10.sun.com> (original mail from Darren.Moffat@Sun.COM) for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Thu, 25 Jan 2007 11:27:08 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [129.156.173.21] by d1-emea-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JCF000HO9573400@d1-emea-10.sun.com> for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Thu, 25 Jan 2007 11:27:08 +0000 (GMT) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 11:27:07 +0000 From: Darren J Moffat Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <1169716337.4335.3.camel@tortuga> Sender: Darren.Moffat@Sun.COM To: Marcel Telka Cc: Kyle McDonald , PSARC-EXT@Sun.COM Message-id: <45B8940B.1040107@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200701240607.l0O67Z4O023171@marduk.eng.sun.com> <20070124061851.GB27682@eng.sun.com> <45B75FA2.1080504@sun.com> <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45b78b19.UuA5rTidJOnO3/65%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169657347.2419.13.camel@tortuga> <45B78F14.6000003@Sun.COM> <17847.37781.741472.969057@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20070124183623.GB17316@eng.sun.com> <17847.51094.526008.806655@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <45B7C8E0.9040808@BigBandNet.COM> <1169673362.1569.62.camel@loghost> <45B7D15E.6070708@BigBandNet.COM> <1169716337.4335.3.camel@tortuga> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.8 (X11/20061128) Status: RO Content-Length: 899 Marcel Telka wrote: > On Wed, 2007-01-24 at 16:36 -0500, Kyle McDonald wrote: >> Laszlo (Laca) Peter wrote: >>> On Wed, 2007-01-24 at 16:00 -0500, Kyle McDonald wrote: >>> >>>> I don't think emulating linux is worthwhile at all, but it seems that if >>>> that's what is deisre here, naming it /usr/linux might make more sense. >>>> >>> "Linux" is the name of a kernel. The command environment used by >>> Linux distributions is mostly GNU. >>> >>> Laca >>> >> A 'Linux Distribution' contains a linux kernel, and alot of software. >> Some of which is GNU. > > There is not something like THE Linux Distribution, so you could not > create something like /usr/linux. If you want to follow this schema you > should create something > like /usr/rh4, /usr/suse9, /usr/debian3, /usr/myown-nongnubased-linux-distro. We probably do not want this :-). One word: BrandZ -- Darren J Moffat From Darren.Reed@Sun.COM Thu Jan 25 03:37:54 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0PBbrCc025327 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 03:37:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0PBbf56010346 for <@sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-EXT@sun.com>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 11:37:52 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCF006039N3F900@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Thu, 25 Jan 2007 03:37:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from sineb-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.19.7]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCF0074Y9MWT5B0@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Thu, 25 Jan 2007 03:37:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from fe-apac-06.sun.com (fe-apac-06.sun.com [192.18.19.177] (may be forged)) by sineb-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l0PBbhfZ028180 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 19:37:43 +0800 (SGT) Received: from conversion-daemon.mail-apac.sun.com by mail-apac.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JCF00I019IR7T00@mail-apac.sun.com> (original mail from Darren.Reed@Sun.COM) for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Thu, 25 Jan 2007 19:37:43 +0800 (SGT) Received: from [129.157.19.198] by mail-apac.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JCF001BC9MR4NYT@mail-apac.sun.com>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 19:37:43 +0800 (SGT) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 12:37:09 +0100 From: Darren Reed Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <17847.51094.526008.806655@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Sender: Darren.Reed@Sun.COM To: James Carlson Cc: Stephen Hahn , Darren J Moffat , Marcel Telka , Joerg Schilling , PSARC-EXT@Sun.COM, barts@eng.sun.com, gww@eng.sun.com Message-id: <45B89665.1030007@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en-us, en X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200701240607.l0O67Z4O023171@marduk.eng.sun.com> <20070124061851.GB27682@eng.sun.com> <45B75FA2.1080504@sun.com> <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45b78b19.UuA5rTidJOnO3/65%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169657347.2419.13.camel@tortuga> <45B78F14.6000003@Sun.COM> <17847.37781.741472.969057@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20070124183623.GB17316@eng.sun.com> <17847.51094.526008.806655@gargle.gargle.HOWL> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; SunOS i86pc; en-US; rv:1.7) Gecko/20060120 Status: RO Content-Length: 1508 James Carlson wrote: > ... > >> Marcel makes a good point, that software could be added to that list >> later. In such cases, the conflicting components may have been given >> a new location; however, it is incorrect to assume that those >> components ended up in /usr/sfw. (As, at the time of ARC proposal, >> the name conflict would have had to have been dealt with.) >> >> > >So, if they don't go in /usr/sfw (because we're trying to burn that >house down), and they can't go in /usr/bin (because they conflict), >and they can't go in /usr/gnu (because they're not on the special >list), then we _are_ necessarily setting precident that future open >source projects will need to create new paths. > >That seems unfortunate. We'll end up back in the state where things >that Linux users, to whom I think we're bowing here, expect to be in >/usr/bin may instead be scattered about the system. > > Can we formalise the use/presence of /usr/local to be the basket for all of the /usr/sfw and /usr/gnu things to fall into? In the very least, it is a familiar name. Or does this remain the domain of local administration? The model used by {Free,Net}BSD is their equivalent to our "ON" goes in /bin, /usr/bin, /sbin, /usr/sbin, /usr/libexec with a single destination for binaries that don't want to live in that tree: /usr/ports or /usr/pkg. I've never seen anyone come up with a "we need a GNU environment" model. Darren p.s. http://www.pl.netbsd.org/Documentation/pkgsrc/platforms.html From dme@sun.com Thu Jan 25 03:43:08 2007 Received: from sunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM (sunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.17]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0PBh8Ub025368 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 03:43:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.11.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0PBh7T01477 for <@sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-EXT@sun.com>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 04:43:07 -0700 (MST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCF0060H9VSTX00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Thu, 25 Jan 2007 03:43:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com ([129.156.42.6]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCF0077H9VPSUF0@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Thu, 25 Jan 2007 03:43:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from d1-emea-09.sun.com ([192.18.2.119]) by gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l0PBh0EV025191 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 11:43:00 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-emea-09.sun.com by d1-emea-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JCF00L019RC0W00@d1-emea-09.sun.com> (original mail from dme@sun.com) for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Thu, 25 Jan 2007 11:43:00 +0000 (GMT) Received: from apfelstrudel.hh.sledj.net ([83.217.165.81]) by d1-emea-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JCF00MQM9VN09ZD@d1-emea-09.sun.com>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 11:43:00 +0000 (GMT) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 11:44:48 +0000 From: David Edmondson Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <45B89665.1030007@sun.com> Sender: David.Edmondson@sun.com To: Darren Reed Cc: James Carlson , Stephen Hahn , Darren J Moffat , Marcel Telka , Joerg Schilling , PSARC-EXT@sun.com, barts@eng.sun.com, gww@eng.sun.com Message-id: <871wljqqj3.fsf@apfelstrudel.hh.sledj.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 Lines: 14 References: <200701240607.l0O67Z4O023171@marduk.eng.sun.com> <20070124061851.GB27682@eng.sun.com> <45B75FA2.1080504@sun.com> <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45b78b19.UuA5rTidJOnO3/65%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169657347.2419.13.camel@tortuga> <45B78F14.6000003@Sun.COM> <17847.37781.741472.969057@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20070124183623.GB17316@eng.sun.com> <17847.51094.526008.806655@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <45B89665.1030007@sun.com> Status: RO Content-Length: 357 * Darren.Reed@Sun.COM [2007-01-25 11:37:09] > Can we formalise the use/presence of /usr/local to be the basket for > all of the /usr/sfw and /usr/gnu things to fall into? In the very > least, it is a familiar name. Please no! > Or does this remain the domain of local administration? Yes. dme. -- David Edmondson, Sun Microsystems, http://www.dme.org From carlsonj@phorcys.east.sun.com Thu Jan 25 05:05:42 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0PD5fuC026827 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 05:05:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0PD5XXc001337; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 13:05:37 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCF0060DDPBB600@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 06:05:35 -0700 (MST) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com ([129.148.174.143]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCF0007VDPA6AH0@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 06:05:34 -0700 (MST) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l0PD5X48028504; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 08:05:33 -0500 (EST) Received: (from carlsonj@localhost) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/Submit) id l0PD5XrU028501; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 08:05:33 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 08:05:33 -0500 From: James Carlson Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <871wljqqj3.fsf@apfelstrudel.hh.sledj.net> To: David Edmondson Cc: Darren Reed , barts@eng.sun.com, PSARC-EXT@sun.com, Joerg Schilling , Marcel Telka , gww@eng.sun.com Message-id: <17848.43805.18041.979586@gargle.gargle.HOWL> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: VM 7.01 under Emacs 21.3.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200701240607.l0O67Z4O023171@marduk.eng.sun.com> <20070124061851.GB27682@eng.sun.com> <45B75FA2.1080504@sun.com> <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45b78b19.UuA5rTidJOnO3/65%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169657347.2419.13.camel@tortuga> <45B78F14.6000003@Sun.COM> <17847.37781.741472.969057@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20070124183623.GB17316@eng.sun.com> <17847.51094.526008.806655@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <45B89665.1030007@sun.com> <871wljqqj3.fsf@apfelstrudel.hh.sledj.net> Status: RO Content-Length: 689 David Edmondson writes: > * Darren.Reed@Sun.COM [2007-01-25 11:37:09] > > Can we formalise the use/presence of /usr/local to be the basket for > > all of the /usr/sfw and /usr/gnu things to fall into? In the very > > least, it is a familiar name. > > Please no! Indeed. > > Or does this remain the domain of local administration? > > Yes. See filesystem(5). We've already staked out a position on /usr/local. If you have it at all, it doesn't come from us. -- James Carlson, Solaris Networking Sun Microsystems / 1 Network Drive 71.232W Vox +1 781 442 2084 MS UBUR02-212 / Burlington MA 01803-2757 42.496N Fax +1 781 442 1677 From alan.coopersmith@sun.com Thu Jan 25 08:48:41 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0PGmeFu002173 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 08:48:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0PGmG7x003393 for <@sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-EXT@sun.com>; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 00:48:39 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCF0060FO123H00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Thu, 25 Jan 2007 08:48:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from sfbaymail1sca.SFBay.Sun.COM ([129.145.154.35]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCF003BQO118BA0@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Thu, 25 Jan 2007 08:48:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.0.101] (vpn-129-150-26-165.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.26.165]) by sfbaymail1sca.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0PGmWJ2004792; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 08:48:34 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 08:47:28 -0800 From: Alan Coopersmith Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <1169718077.27304.12.camel@phalan> To: Mark Phalan Cc: Marcel Telka , Kyle McDonald , PSARC-EXT@sun.com Message-id: <45B8DF20.70701@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200701240607.l0O67Z4O023171@marduk.eng.sun.com> <20070124061851.GB27682@eng.sun.com> <45B75FA2.1080504@sun.com> <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45b78b19.UuA5rTidJOnO3/65%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169657347.2419.13.camel@tortuga> <45B78F14.6000003@Sun.COM> <17847.37781.741472.969057@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20070124183623.GB17316@eng.sun.com> <17847.51094.526008.806655@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <45B7C8E0.9040808@BigBandNet.COM> <1169673362.1569.62.camel@loghost> <45B7D15E.6070708@BigBandNet.COM> <1169716337.4335.3.camel@tortuga> <1169718077.27304.12.camel@phalan> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (X11/20060602) Status: RO Content-Length: 438 Mark Phalan wrote: > What about using the LSB > (http://www.linux-foundation.org/en/Specifications)? It has a section on > commands and utilities. Would that buy us anything? i.e. having > something like "/usr/lsb". /usr/lsb would be self-contradictory, since the LSB bans subdirectories of /usr other than bin, lib, etc. -- -Alan Coopersmith- alan.coopersmith@sun.com Sun Microsystems, Inc. - X Window System Engineering From nw141292@binky.Central.Sun.COM Thu Jan 25 08:52:58 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0PGqvUO002437 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 08:52:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0PGqFRR003283; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 16:52:55 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCF00A1HO84BM00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 08:52:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM ([129.153.128.104]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCF00GGMO8361C0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 08:52:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0PGqPrm026489; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 10:52:25 -0600 (CST) Received: (from nw141292@localhost) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/Submit) id l0PGqOSw026488; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 10:52:25 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 10:52:24 -0600 From: Nicolas Williams Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <45B8DF20.70701@sun.com> To: Alan Coopersmith Cc: Mark Phalan , Marcel Telka , Kyle McDonald , PSARC-EXT@sun.com Message-id: <20070125165224.GW12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <45B78F14.6000003@Sun.COM> <17847.37781.741472.969057@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20070124183623.GB17316@eng.sun.com> <17847.51094.526008.806655@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <45B7C8E0.9040808@BigBandNet.COM> <1169673362.1569.62.camel@loghost> <45B7D15E.6070708@BigBandNet.COM> <1169716337.4335.3.camel@tortuga> <1169718077.27304.12.camel@phalan> <45B8DF20.70701@sun.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.7i Status: RO Content-Length: 418 On Thu, Jan 25, 2007 at 08:47:28AM -0800, Alan Coopersmith wrote: > Mark Phalan wrote: > >What about using the LSB > >(http://www.linux-foundation.org/en/Specifications)? It has a section on > >commands and utilities. Would that buy us anything? i.e. having > >something like "/usr/lsb". > > /usr/lsb would be self-contradictory, since the LSB bans subdirectories > of /usr other than bin, lib, etc. /usr/lsb-approx From kyle.mcdonald@bigbandnet.com Thu Jan 25 08:56:09 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0PGu8F1002909 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 08:56:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0PGu3sX004524; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 16:56:04 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCF00A07ODEDM00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 09:56:02 -0700 (MST) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com ([192.18.98.34]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCF00GGOODD1RA0@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 09:56:01 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay3.sun.com (relay3.sun.com [150.143.103.54] (may be forged)) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l0PGYCC8019200; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 09:56:01 -0700 (MST) Received: from mms03es.sun.com ([150.143.104.54] [150.143.104.54]) by relay3.sun.com with ESMTP; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 16:55:56 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay4.sun.com (relay4.sun.com [150.143.103.74]) by mms03es.sun.com with ESMTP; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 16:55:51 +0000 (Z) Received: from exprod8og57.obsmtp.com ([64.18.3.96] [64.18.3.96]) by relay4.sun.com; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 16:45:16 +0000 (Z) Received: from source ([65.126.230.68]) by exprod8ob57.obsmtp.com ([64.18.7.12]) with SMTP; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 08:40:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([10.30.8.236]) by wsb-srvr-02.bigbandnet.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 25 Jan 2007 11:40:48 -0500 Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 11:40:41 -0500 From: Kyle McDonald Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <45B7DE7F.705@sun.com> To: Joseph Kowalski Cc: Marcel Telka , barts@eng.sun.com, gww@eng.sun.com, Joerg Schilling , PSARC-EXT@sun.com, Darren.Reed@sun.com Message-id: <45B8DD89.8020309@BigBandNet.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200701240607.l0O67Z4O023171@marduk.eng.sun.com> <20070124061851.GB27682@eng.sun.com> <45B75FA2.1080504@sun.com> <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45B7DE7F.705@sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 25 Jan 2007 16:40:48.0025 (UTC) FILETIME=[91037890:01C7409F] Status: RO Content-Length: 2716 Joseph Kowalski wrote: > We want to start putting all user utilities with non-conflicting names > into /usr/bin. Why? Please NO! I know I'm just a lowly long time user of Solaris, but please don't polute /usr/bin with this stuff. I've always hated the linux approach of throwing everything in one place. What was it another post said 4000+ programins in /usr/bin? Yuck! I found the includion of GNOME in /usr/bin to be a mistake, and I think others who orignally thought is was ok now think so too. > Death to sfw! We intend to make the stability commitment clear on the > man pages > (and not by PATH) - this is why all of these utilities are required to > have a (perhaps > tiny) man page - only a synopsis, attributes section and pointer to > other documentation > are required. PATH is the solution to this. It's a good solution. The developers that we are looking to attract to work on solaris should have no problem understanding how to configure their path for their preferences. I've always altered my PATH to only contain the items I'm interested in at any one time. Login without a way to do X11, don't put X11 or GNOME or KDE in my PATH. Things like that. Please, don't add more non-Solaris stuff to /usr/bin. It reduces the flexibility. Does it require the user (more likely the system admin) to configure their environment -yes. I don't think this is elitist.. I think it's good design. A second reason to not do this: As a system admin for a large site, I build all these GNU tools myself for my users. My builds are always more up to date than anything that is shipping with Solaris. I don't install these tools on every machine, I keep them on an NFS mount. Since mine are the newer, and local built (sometimes with local configure options) my users want to use the ones on the network, not the local machine. It's bad practice in general to begin have an NFS directory too early in your $PATH. If the server is unavailable, nearly every command you run will hang. Therefore to have (limited) use of the machine, you need to keep things that are local to the machine (like /usr/bin) at the beginning of the $PATH. If all this OSS software is dropped wholesale into /usr/bin, that will make this impossible. My users will be forced to either search the NFS directory first, or make local aliases for the commands they want from the net, or worse, go in and delete things from /usr/bin. I've seen plenty of comments on here that the idea of putting everything in /usr/bin is seen as one of the biggest mistakes in the LSB. Why repeat it? Why not use it, and promote it, as one of the differentiators, and one of the ways Solaris is better. -Kyle -Kyle From kyle.mcdonald@bigbandnet.com Thu Jan 25 09:02:18 2007 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0PH2H7A003120 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 09:02:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0PH2Crj024685; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 09:02:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCF0062TONSZB00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 09:02:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.98.43]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCF00341ONQ8BE0@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 09:02:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay2.sun.com (relay2.sun.com [150.143.103.24] (may be forged)) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l0PGnHkm028403; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 10:02:14 -0700 (MST) Received: from mms09es.sun.com ([150.143.104.174] [150.143.104.174]) by relay2.sun.com with ESMTP; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 17:02:14 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay1.sun.com (relay1.sun.com [150.143.103.14]) by mms09es.sun.com with ESMTP; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 17:02:12 +0000 (Z) Received: from exprod8og55.obsmtp.com ([64.18.3.92] [64.18.3.92]) by relay1.sun.com; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 16:54:13 +0000 (Z) Received: from source ([65.126.230.68]) by exprod8ob55.obsmtp.com ([64.18.7.12]) with SMTP; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 08:52:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([10.30.8.236]) by wsb-srvr-02.bigbandnet.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 25 Jan 2007 11:52:34 -0500 Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 11:52:25 -0500 From: Kyle McDonald Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <1169716337.4335.3.camel@tortuga> To: Marcel Telka Cc: PSARC-EXT@sun.com Message-id: <45B8E049.6090701@BigBandNet.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200701240607.l0O67Z4O023171@marduk.eng.sun.com> <20070124061851.GB27682@eng.sun.com> <45B75FA2.1080504@sun.com> <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45b78b19.UuA5rTidJOnO3/65%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169657347.2419.13.camel@tortuga> <45B78F14.6000003@Sun.COM> <17847.37781.741472.969057@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20070124183623.GB17316@eng.sun.com> <17847.51094.526008.806655@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <45B7C8E0.9040808@BigBandNet.COM> <1169673362.1569.62.camel@loghost> <45B7D15E.6070708@BigBandNet.COM> <1169716337.4335.3.camel@tortuga> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 25 Jan 2007 16:52:34.0467 (UTC) FILETIME=[3615F730:01C740A1] Status: RO Content-Length: 663 Marcel Telka wrote: > There is not something like THE Linux Distribution, so you could not > create something like /usr/linux. If you want to follow this schema you > should create something > like /usr/rh4, /usr/suse9, /usr/debian3, /usr/myown-nongnubased-linux-distro. We probably do not want this :-). > > There may not be a single distribution, but due to the LSB, I bet all the tools we are discussing here are located in the same place on all (or the vast majority) linux distributions. But if both /usr/gnu and /usr/linux are the wrong names, how about /usr/oss?? (I'm guessing /sur/fsw - for Free Soft Ware - is too close to /usr/sfw.) -Kyle From nw141292@binky.Central.Sun.COM Thu Jan 25 09:09:32 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0PH9VHe003463 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 09:09:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0PH99Tc008333; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 17:09:27 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCF00C01OZQLD00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 09:09:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM ([129.153.128.104]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCF00G8QOZQ60F0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 09:09:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0PH8wb2026599; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 11:08:58 -0600 (CST) Received: (from nw141292@localhost) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/Submit) id l0PH8wL5026598; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 11:08:58 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 11:08:57 -0600 From: Nicolas Williams Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <45B8DD89.8020309@BigBandNet.COM> To: Kyle McDonald Cc: Joseph Kowalski , Marcel Telka , barts@eng.sun.com, gww@eng.sun.com, Joerg Schilling , PSARC-EXT@sun.com, Darren.Reed@sun.com Message-id: <20070125170857.GZ12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200701240607.l0O67Z4O023171@marduk.eng.sun.com> <20070124061851.GB27682@eng.sun.com> <45B75FA2.1080504@sun.com> <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45B7DE7F.705@sun.com> <45B8DD89.8020309@BigBandNet.COM> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.7i Status: RO Content-Length: 894 On Thu, Jan 25, 2007 at 11:40:41AM -0500, Kyle McDonald wrote: > PATH is the solution to this. It's a good solution. The developers that > we are looking to attract to work on solaris should have no problem > understanding how to configure their path for their preferences. The problem with *PATH is that it's too difficult to use. Wanna change it? First you need to know what shell you're using, then you need to edit the right dot files. That's insane -- try building a GUI around that. Sure, JDS/GNOME could have a different authoritative location of *PATH configuration and the stock dot files could preserve whatever *PATH are set by the GUI environment, but when logging in without a GUI you lose, or if you edit your dot files and do the wrong thing, you lose. This isn't friendly. You and I know how to maintain our dot files, but our mothers and grandmothers don't. Nico -- From nw141292@binky.Central.Sun.COM Thu Jan 25 09:11:08 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0PHB7Qw003562 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 09:11:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0PHB2iI009571; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 01:11:04 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCF00C1NP2C0P00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 10:11:00 -0700 (MST) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM ([129.153.128.104]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCF00GT1P2A1WC0@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 10:10:58 -0700 (MST) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0PHAVuu026611; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 11:10:31 -0600 (CST) Received: (from nw141292@localhost) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/Submit) id l0PHAVg7026610; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 11:10:31 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 11:10:31 -0600 From: Nicolas Williams Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <45B8E049.6090701@BigBandNet.COM> To: Kyle McDonald Cc: Marcel Telka , PSARC-EXT@sun.com Message-id: <20070125171031.GA12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1169657347.2419.13.camel@tortuga> <45B78F14.6000003@Sun.COM> <17847.37781.741472.969057@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20070124183623.GB17316@eng.sun.com> <17847.51094.526008.806655@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <45B7C8E0.9040808@BigBandNet.COM> <1169673362.1569.62.camel@loghost> <45B7D15E.6070708@BigBandNet.COM> <1169716337.4335.3.camel@tortuga> <45B8E049.6090701@BigBandNet.COM> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.7i Status: RO Content-Length: 370 On Thu, Jan 25, 2007 at 11:52:25AM -0500, Kyle McDonald wrote: > But if both /usr/gnu and /usr/linux are the wrong names, how about > /usr/oss?? > (I'm guessing /sur/fsw - for Free Soft Ware - is too close to /usr/sfw.) Or keep /usr/sfw alive but move non-conflicting things into /usr/bin. I like the idea of a BSD-like /usr/pkg/ (like /opt, but in /usr). Nico -- From carlsonj@phorcys.east.sun.com Thu Jan 25 09:18:52 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0PHIpC7003761 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 09:18:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0PHIeI1011477; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 01:18:45 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCF00D1FPF5V200@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 09:18:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com ([129.148.174.143]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCF00DX7PF30R30@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 09:18:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l0PHIcUx000210; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 12:18:38 -0500 (EST) Received: (from carlsonj@localhost) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/Submit) id l0PHIct1000207; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 12:18:38 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 12:18:37 -0500 From: James Carlson Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <45B8DD89.8020309@BigBandNet.COM> To: Kyle McDonald Cc: Joseph Kowalski , Marcel Telka , barts@eng.sun.com, gww@eng.sun.com, Joerg Schilling , PSARC-EXT@sun.com, Darren.Reed@sun.com Message-id: <17848.58989.858589.51932@gargle.gargle.HOWL> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: VM 7.01 under Emacs 21.3.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200701240607.l0O67Z4O023171@marduk.eng.sun.com> <20070124061851.GB27682@eng.sun.com> <45B75FA2.1080504@sun.com> <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45B7DE7F.705@sun.com> <45B8DD89.8020309@BigBandNet.COM> Status: RO Content-Length: 1226 Kyle McDonald writes: > Joseph Kowalski wrote: > > We want to start putting all user utilities with non-conflicting names > > into /usr/bin. > Why? Please NO! > > I know I'm just a lowly long time user of Solaris, but please don't > polute /usr/bin with this stuff. This has been discussed to death, and I don't think the body needs to be exhumed for this case. /usr/sfw/bin (and the other far-flung /bin directories lurking in the system) pose a serious and on-going usability problem for Solaris. Users can't find what they need. They just assume that Solaris doesn't include basic tools such as "make." They walk away. Adding /usr/sfw/bin to the path doesn't fix the problem. It's not needed on other platforms, so you end up in a confusing and incomplete place. That's not good for Sun or for Solaris. Thus, we rescinded that earlier mistake. See "Enabling serendipitous discovery" (PSARC 2005/185) for details, and either file a new case or an appeal if you wish to overturn that one. -- James Carlson, Solaris Networking Sun Microsystems / 1 Network Drive 71.232W Vox +1 781 442 2084 MS UBUR02-212 / Burlington MA 01803-2757 42.496N Fax +1 781 442 1677 From kyle.mcdonald@bigbandnet.com Thu Jan 25 09:23:34 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0PHNXef003972 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 09:23:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0PHNRC9012781; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 17:23:31 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCF00D0YPN60700@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 09:23:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from sca-ea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.43.25]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCF00902PN6JT10@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 09:23:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay2.sun.com (relay2.sun.com [150.143.103.24] (may be forged)) by sca-ea-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l0PHBgMY006763; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 09:23:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from mms09es.sun.com ([150.143.104.174] [150.143.104.174]) by relay2.sun.com with ESMTP; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 17:23:02 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay4.sun.com (relay4.sun.com [150.143.103.74]) by mms09es.sun.com with ESMTP; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 17:22:59 +0000 (Z) Received: from exprod8og55.obsmtp.com ([64.18.3.92] [64.18.3.92]) by relay4.sun.com; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 17:15:33 +0000 (Z) Received: from source ([65.126.230.68]) by exprod8ob55.obsmtp.com ([64.18.7.12]) with SMTP; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 09:13:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([10.30.8.236]) by wsb-srvr-02.bigbandnet.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 25 Jan 2007 12:13:48 -0500 Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 12:13:41 -0500 From: Kyle McDonald Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <20070125171031.GA12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> To: Nicolas Williams Cc: Marcel Telka , PSARC-EXT@sun.com Message-id: <45B8E545.2090005@BigBandNet.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1169657347.2419.13.camel@tortuga> <45B78F14.6000003@Sun.COM> <17847.37781.741472.969057@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20070124183623.GB17316@eng.sun.com> <17847.51094.526008.806655@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <45B7C8E0.9040808@BigBandNet.COM> <1169673362.1569.62.camel@loghost> <45B7D15E.6070708@BigBandNet.COM> <1169716337.4335.3.camel@tortuga> <45B8E049.6090701@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125171031.GA12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 25 Jan 2007 17:13:48.0709 (UTC) FILETIME=[2D97DD50:01C740A4] Status: RO Content-Length: 765 Nicolas Williams wrote: > On Thu, Jan 25, 2007 at 11:52:25AM -0500, Kyle McDonald wrote: > >> But if both /usr/gnu and /usr/linux are the wrong names, how about >> /usr/oss?? >> (I'm guessing /sur/fsw - for Free Soft Ware - is too close to /usr/sfw.) >> > > Or keep /usr/sfw alive but move non-conflicting things into /usr/bin. > > As I wrote in another post. Please don't put anything OSS in /usr/bin. I'm all for updating the default PATH in /etc/default, or /etc/login and /etc/.cshrc, but keep this stuff in somewhat seperate 'packages' so that the users can build the environment they want. > I like the idea of a BSD-like /usr/pkg/ (like /opt, but in /usr). > > I haven't seen BSD in a while, but /usr/pkg might work for me too. -Kyle From pete@sorted.org Thu Jan 25 09:23:43 2007 Received: from sunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM (sunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.17]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0PHNh93003988 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 09:23:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.11.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0PHNcT14071; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 10:23:38 -0700 (MST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCF00D0JPND0M00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 09:23:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwkea-mail-4.sun.com ([192.18.42.26]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCF009C4PNCJK00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 09:23:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay42i.sun.com ([192.5.209.72]) by nwkea-mail-4.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l0PH74ng008574; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 09:23:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from mms48es.sun.com ([160.41.221.231] [160.41.221.231]) by relay42i.sun.com with ESMTP; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 17:23:35 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay41i.sun.com ([192.5.209.70] [192.5.209.70]) by mms48es.sun.com with ESMTP; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 17:23:35 +0000 (Z) Received: from it0017.rb3.itaction.net ([83.136.1.149] [83.136.1.149]) by relay4i.sun.com with ESMTP; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 17:23:35 +0000 (Z) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=it0033.it-action.com) by it0017.rb3.itaction.net with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 1HA8Jy-0007Um-00; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 17:23:34 +0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([83.136.2.67]) by it0033.it-action.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with ESMTP id JCFPN900.KHN; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 17:23:33 +0000 Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 17:16:34 +0000 From: Pete Bentley Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <45B8DD89.8020309@BigBandNet.COM> To: Kyle McDonald Cc: Joseph Kowalski , barts@eng.sun.com, gww@eng.sun.com, Joerg Schilling , PSARC-EXT@sun.com, Marcel Telka , Darren.Reed@sun.com Message-id: <45B8E5F2.8030402@sorted.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200701240607.l0O67Z4O023171@marduk.eng.sun.com> <20070124061851.GB27682@eng.sun.com> <45B75FA2.1080504@sun.com> <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45B7DE7F.705@sun.com> <45B8DD89.8020309@BigBandNet.COM> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (Windows/20060719) Status: RO Content-Length: 2031 Kyle McDonald wrote: > Joseph Kowalski wrote: >> We want to start putting all user utilities with non-conflicting names >> into /usr/bin. > Why? Please NO! > > I know I'm just a lowly long time user of Solaris, but please don't > polute /usr/bin with this stuff. > [...] > PATH is the solution to this. It's a good solution. It's a good solution for people who understand Solaris already and know which directories they might need in their PATH, but I get the impression this proposal is intended to create a "comfort zone" for people coming from environments where they might expect a complete GNU userland by default. However, rather than dumping it all in /usr/bin it might be better to create a new bin directory (/usr/dustbin?) for those people which is simply a symlink farm out to the various /usr/*/bin directories (much the way Veritas put links from /opt/VRTS/bin/* to all their /opt/VRTS/*/bin/* executables). Or this could even be achieved with package (SUNWlinuxcomfort) which was not installed by default, and which built out a symlink farm from /usr/bin ... That seems link an ugly solution to me though. > The developers that > we are looking to attract to work on solaris should have no problem > understanding how to configure their path for their preferences. Without wanting to sound superior, I'm not so sure about that. People coming from a Linux background will take some time to figure out what they need, and it represents a "barrier to entry" where some proportion of them will just assume Solaris sucks and give it up as a bad job. > A second reason to not do this: > [...] > It's bad practice in general to begin have an NFS directory too early in > your $PATH. NFS or no, the more names you dump into /usr/bin (which is expected to be early in people's PATH), the more likely you are to mask some local application (or locally tailored version of an application) in a directory further down the PATH which I think violates the Principle of Least Astonishment. Pete. From nw141292@binky.Central.Sun.COM Thu Jan 25 09:33:34 2007 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0PHXYgX004147 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 09:33:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0PHXWcI001597; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 09:33:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCF00F0JQ3VZ500@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 09:33:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM ([129.153.128.104]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCF00D3GQ3U0RB0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 09:33:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0PHX3PW026745; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 11:33:03 -0600 (CST) Received: (from nw141292@localhost) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/Submit) id l0PHX3Ac026744; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 11:33:03 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 11:33:03 -0600 From: Nicolas Williams Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <45B8E545.2090005@BigBandNet.COM> To: Kyle McDonald Cc: Marcel Telka , PSARC-EXT@sun.com Message-id: <20070125173303.GB12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <17847.37781.741472.969057@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20070124183623.GB17316@eng.sun.com> <17847.51094.526008.806655@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <45B7C8E0.9040808@BigBandNet.COM> <1169673362.1569.62.camel@loghost> <45B7D15E.6070708@BigBandNet.COM> <1169716337.4335.3.camel@tortuga> <45B8E049.6090701@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125171031.GA12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8E545.2090005@BigBandNet.COM> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.7i Status: RO Content-Length: 631 On Thu, Jan 25, 2007 at 12:13:41PM -0500, Kyle McDonald wrote: > As I wrote in another post. Please don't put anything OSS in /usr/bin. Er, there's plenty of non-Sun originated OSS in /usr/bin already. And OpenSolaris *is* OSS, so much of /usr/bin is OSS. So, I don't understand this comment. The only reasonable distinction w.r.t. what goes into /usr/bin is interface stability and/or Sun support for it. And the ARC already decided that serendipitous discovery of unstable interfaces is now OK. That matter being closed I see no reason not to put 4,000 new things into /usr/bin, and I expect the ARC would agree. Nico -- From Darren.Moffat@Sun.COM Thu Jan 25 09:33:47 2007 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0PHXlOc004163 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 09:33:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0PHXkuc001630 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-EXT@sun.com>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 09:33:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCF00G0HQ461100@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Thu, 25 Jan 2007 09:33:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com ([129.156.42.6]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCF00D6DQ450RB0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Thu, 25 Jan 2007 09:33:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from d1-emea-10.sun.com ([192.18.2.120]) by gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l0PHXe97021322 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 17:33:40 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-emea-10.sun.com by d1-emea-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JCF00D01Q3T6O00@d1-emea-10.sun.com> (original mail from Darren.Moffat@Sun.COM) for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Thu, 25 Jan 2007 17:33:40 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [129.156.173.21] by d1-emea-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JCF000C7Q433510@d1-emea-10.sun.com> for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Thu, 25 Jan 2007 17:33:40 +0000 (GMT) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 17:33:39 +0000 From: Darren J Moffat Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <45B8E545.2090005@BigBandNet.COM> Sender: Darren.Moffat@Sun.COM To: Kyle McDonald Cc: Nicolas Williams , Marcel Telka , PSARC-EXT@Sun.COM Message-id: <45B8E9F3.2000709@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1169657347.2419.13.camel@tortuga> <45B78F14.6000003@Sun.COM> <17847.37781.741472.969057@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20070124183623.GB17316@eng.sun.com> <17847.51094.526008.806655@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <45B7C8E0.9040808@BigBandNet.COM> <1169673362.1569.62.camel@loghost> <45B7D15E.6070708@BigBandNet.COM> <1169716337.4335.3.camel@tortuga> <45B8E049.6090701@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125171031.GA12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8E545.2090005@BigBandNet.COM> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.8 (X11/20061128) Status: RO Content-Length: 769 Kyle McDonald wrote: > Nicolas Williams wrote: >> On Thu, Jan 25, 2007 at 11:52:25AM -0500, Kyle McDonald wrote: >> >>> But if both /usr/gnu and /usr/linux are the wrong names, how about >>> /usr/oss?? >>> (I'm guessing /sur/fsw - for Free Soft Ware - is too close to /usr/sfw.) >>> >> >> Or keep /usr/sfw alive but move non-conflicting things into /usr/bin. >> >> > As I wrote in another post. Please don't put anything OSS in /usr/bin. Okay, rm -rf /usr/bin Since many of the things in /usr/bin are open source given the existence of OpenSolaris. The source code license of a utiltity should not dictate its location in the file system. This case is NOT about the GPL it is about the GNU variants of tools provided by the FSF. -- Darren J Moffat From kyle.mcdonald@bigbandnet.com Thu Jan 25 09:35:07 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0PHZ5rr004230 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 09:35:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0PHYtWh016385; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 01:34:58 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCF00E0BQ69L900@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 10:34:57 -0700 (MST) Received: from sca-ea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.43.25]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCF00GUXQ661KB0@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 10:34:55 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay13.sun.com (relay13.sun.com [217.140.40.54] (may be forged)) by sca-ea-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l0PHYrVw022887; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 09:34:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from mms11es.sun.com ([160.41.223.14] [160.41.223.14]) by relay13.sun.com with ESMTP; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 17:34:53 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay13.sun.com (relay13.sun.com [217.140.40.54]) by mms11es.sun.com with ESMTP; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 17:34:52 +0000 (Z) Received: from exprod8og57.obsmtp.com ([64.18.3.96] [64.18.3.96]) by relay13.sun.com; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 17:26:59 +0000 (Z) Received: from source ([65.126.230.68]) by exprod8ob57.obsmtp.com ([64.18.7.12]) with SMTP; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 09:18:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([10.30.8.236]) by wsb-srvr-02.bigbandnet.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 25 Jan 2007 12:18:02 -0500 Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 12:17:54 -0500 From: Kyle McDonald Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <20070125170857.GZ12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> To: Nicolas Williams Cc: Joseph Kowalski , Marcel Telka , barts@eng.sun.com, gww@eng.sun.com, Joerg Schilling , PSARC-EXT@sun.com, Darren.Reed@sun.com Message-id: <45B8E642.3090006@BigBandNet.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200701240607.l0O67Z4O023171@marduk.eng.sun.com> <20070124061851.GB27682@eng.sun.com> <45B75FA2.1080504@sun.com> <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45B7DE7F.705@sun.com> <45B8DD89.8020309@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125170857.GZ12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 25 Jan 2007 17:18:02.0555 (UTC) FILETIME=[C4E5B0B0:01C740A4] Status: RO Content-Length: 1680 Nicolas Williams wrote: > On Thu, Jan 25, 2007 at 11:40:41AM -0500, Kyle McDonald wrote: > >> PATH is the solution to this. It's a good solution. The developers that >> we are looking to attract to work on solaris should have no problem >> understanding how to configure their path for their preferences. >> > > The problem with *PATH is that it's too difficult to use. Wanna change > it? First you need to know what shell you're using, then you need to > edit the right dot files. That's insane -- try building a GUI around > that. Sure, JDS/GNOME could have a different authoritative location of > *PATH configuration and the stock dot files could preserve whatever > *PATH are set by the GUI environment, but when logging in without a GUI > you lose, or if you edit your dot files and do the wrong thing, you > lose. > Why have an additional place? You lost me there. I'm all for updating the *default* path to include this stuf, so that the 'average' user doesn't have to go looking. I'm just against taking this tool (and it is a tool) away from the developers and users who know how to use it. If all the binaries are in /usr/bin, why have a $PATH at all? > This isn't friendly. You and I know how to maintain our dot files, but > our mothers and grandmothers don't. > > And our mothers and grandmothers aren't going to wonder whether they're using solaris grep or GNU grep either are they? They're going to want the GUI applications to work. The Developers will need to make sure the GUI application that requires GNU grep either exec it with the full path, or updates it's own $PATH beforehand. Not that big a deal for a developer. -Kyle From nw141292@binky.Central.Sun.COM Thu Jan 25 09:39:54 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0PHdrQ1004293 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 09:39:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0PHdaMc018206; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 01:39:47 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCF00E0BQE65V00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 09:39:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM ([129.153.128.104]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCF00991QE5JN20@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 09:39:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0PHdDOK026784; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 11:39:13 -0600 (CST) Received: (from nw141292@localhost) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/Submit) id l0PHdDa9026783; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 11:39:13 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 11:39:13 -0600 From: Nicolas Williams Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <45B8E642.3090006@BigBandNet.COM> To: Kyle McDonald Cc: Joseph Kowalski , Marcel Telka , barts@eng.sun.com, gww@eng.sun.com, Joerg Schilling , PSARC-EXT@sun.com, Darren.Reed@sun.com Message-id: <20070125173913.GC12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200701240607.l0O67Z4O023171@marduk.eng.sun.com> <20070124061851.GB27682@eng.sun.com> <45B75FA2.1080504@sun.com> <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45B7DE7F.705@sun.com> <45B8DD89.8020309@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125170857.GZ12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8E642.3090006@BigBandNet.COM> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.7i Status: RO Content-Length: 1170 On Thu, Jan 25, 2007 at 12:17:54PM -0500, Kyle McDonald wrote: > Nicolas Williams wrote: > >The problem with *PATH is that it's too difficult to use. Wanna change > >it? First you need to know what shell you're using, then you need to > >edit the right dot files. That's insane -- try building a GUI around > >that. Sure, JDS/GNOME could have a different authoritative location of > >*PATH configuration and the stock dot files could preserve whatever > >*PATH are set by the GUI environment, but when logging in without a GUI > >you lose, or if you edit your dot files and do the wrong thing, you > >lose. > > > Why have an additional place? You lost me there. > > I'm all for updating the *default* path to include this stuf, so that > the 'average' user doesn't have to go looking. > I'm just against taking this tool (and it is a tool) away from the > developers and users who know how to use it. If we can provide enough of an environment in /usr/bin that having it in your PATH (and you generally would, no matter what you did with your dot files) gets you a fairly complete environment, then that reduces the need for complex PATH management. Nico -- From Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com Thu Jan 25 09:40:56 2007 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0PHeuCY004328 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 09:40:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0PHer8D002793 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-EXT@sun.com>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 09:40:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCF00H11QG87N00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Thu, 25 Jan 2007 09:40:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from sfbaymail1sca.SFBay.Sun.COM ([129.145.154.35]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCF00DQXQG70RE0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Thu, 25 Jan 2007 09:40:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.0.101] (vpn-129-150-26-165.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.26.165]) by sfbaymail1sca.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0PHepgg000509; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 09:40:53 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 09:39:47 -0800 From: Alan Coopersmith Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <45B8E545.2090005@BigBandNet.COM> To: Kyle McDonald Cc: Nicolas Williams , Marcel Telka , PSARC-EXT@sun.com Message-id: <45B8EB63.9090109@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1169657347.2419.13.camel@tortuga> <45B78F14.6000003@Sun.COM> <17847.37781.741472.969057@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20070124183623.GB17316@eng.sun.com> <17847.51094.526008.806655@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <45B7C8E0.9040808@BigBandNet.COM> <1169673362.1569.62.camel@loghost> <45B7D15E.6070708@BigBandNet.COM> <1169716337.4335.3.camel@tortuga> <45B8E049.6090701@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125171031.GA12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8E545.2090005@BigBandNet.COM> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (X11/20060602) Status: RO Content-Length: 363 Kyle McDonald wrote: > As I wrote in another post. Please don't put anything OSS in /usr/bin. You're 20 years too late for that. /usr/bin is well over 90% OSS now, between OpenSolaris and GNOME and all the other open source projects we include. -- -Alan Coopersmith- alan.coopersmith@sun.com Sun Microsystems, Inc. - X Window System Engineering From kyle.mcdonald@bigbandnet.com Thu Jan 25 09:46:17 2007 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0PHkH84004375 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 09:46:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0PHkFZK005215; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 09:46:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCF00H0JQP3XL00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 09:46:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwkea-mail-4.sun.com ([192.18.42.26]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCF00HUYQP2BU10@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 09:46:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay21.sun.com (relay21.sun.com [192.12.251.14] (may be forged)) by nwkea-mail-4.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l0PHkEgK003635; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 09:46:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from mms26es.sun.com ([150.143.232.114] [150.143.232.114]) by relay21.sun.com with ESMTP; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 17:46:14 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay24.sun.com (relay24.sun.com [192.12.251.74]) by mms26es.sun.com with ESMTP; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 17:46:12 +0000 (Z) Received: from exprod8og57.obsmtp.com ([64.18.3.96] [64.18.3.96]) by relay24.sun.com; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 17:00:54 +0000 (Z) Received: from source ([65.126.230.68]) by exprod8ob57.obsmtp.com ([64.18.7.12]) with SMTP; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 08:56:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([10.30.8.236]) by wsb-srvr-02.bigbandnet.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 25 Jan 2007 11:56:06 -0500 Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 11:55:57 -0500 From: Kyle McDonald Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <45B8DF20.70701@sun.com> To: Alan Coopersmith Cc: Mark Phalan , Marcel Telka , PSARC-EXT@sun.com Message-id: <45B8E11D.2040400@BigBandNet.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200701240607.l0O67Z4O023171@marduk.eng.sun.com> <20070124061851.GB27682@eng.sun.com> <45B75FA2.1080504@sun.com> <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45b78b19.UuA5rTidJOnO3/65%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169657347.2419.13.camel@tortuga> <45B78F14.6000003@Sun.COM> <17847.37781.741472.969057@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20070124183623.GB17316@eng.sun.com> <17847.51094.526008.806655@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <45B7C8E0.9040808@BigBandNet.COM> <1169673362.1569.62.camel@loghost> <45B7D15E.6070708@BigBandNet.COM> <1169716337.4335.3.camel@tortuga> <1169718077.27304.12.camel@phalan> <45B8DF20.70701@sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 25 Jan 2007 16:56:06.0140 (UTC) FILETIME=[B440B3C0:01C740A1] Status: RO Content-Length: 657 Alan Coopersmith wrote: > Mark Phalan wrote: >> What about using the LSB >> (http://www.linux-foundation.org/en/Specifications)? It has a section on >> commands and utilities. Would that buy us anything? i.e. having >> something like "/usr/lsb". > > /usr/lsb would be self-contradictory, since the LSB bans subdirectories > of /usr other than bin, lib, etc. > Actually if /usr/lsb were *fully* populated (mostly through softlinks?) exactly as /usr is on linux, migrators from linux might actually prefer it. And it would leave Solaris free to keep it's /usr to it's traditional roots. (It might even be possible to undo the GNOME mistake. ;) ) -Kyle From kyle.mcdonald@bigbandnet.com Thu Jan 25 09:51:05 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0PHp4IQ004416 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 09:51:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0PHowhZ020893; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 17:50:59 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCF00I0ZQWXNV00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 09:50:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com ([192.18.98.34]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCF00HY5QWXBU30@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 09:50:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay2.sun.com (relay2.sun.com [150.143.103.24] (may be forged)) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l0PHBVaA019517; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 10:50:56 -0700 (MST) Received: from mms06es.sun.com ([150.143.104.114] [150.143.104.114]) by relay2.sun.com with ESMTP; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 17:50:53 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay3.sun.com (relay3.sun.com [150.143.103.54]) by mms06es.sun.com with ESMTP; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 17:50:48 +0000 (Z) Received: from exprod8og57.obsmtp.com ([64.18.3.96] [64.18.3.96]) by relay3.sun.com; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 17:36:20 +0000 (Z) Received: from source ([65.126.230.68]) by exprod8ob57.obsmtp.com ([64.18.7.12]) with SMTP; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 09:18:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([10.30.8.236]) by wsb-srvr-02.bigbandnet.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 25 Jan 2007 12:29:45 -0500 Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 12:29:36 -0500 From: Kyle McDonald Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <17848.58989.858589.51932@gargle.gargle.HOWL> To: James Carlson Cc: Joseph Kowalski , Marcel Telka , barts@eng.sun.com, gww@eng.sun.com, Joerg Schilling , PSARC-EXT@sun.com, Darren.Reed@sun.com Message-id: <45B8E900.3080005@BigBandNet.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200701240607.l0O67Z4O023171@marduk.eng.sun.com> <20070124061851.GB27682@eng.sun.com> <45B75FA2.1080504@sun.com> <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45B7DE7F.705@sun.com> <45B8DD89.8020309@BigBandNet.COM> <17848.58989.858589.51932@gargle.gargle.HOWL> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 25 Jan 2007 17:29:45.0934 (UTC) FILETIME=[6824CEE0:01C740A6] Status: RO Content-Length: 2527 James Carlson wrote: > Kyle McDonald writes: > >> Joseph Kowalski wrote: >> >>> We want to start putting all user utilities with non-conflicting names >>> into /usr/bin. >>> >> Why? Please NO! >> >> I know I'm just a lowly long time user of Solaris, but please don't >> polute /usr/bin with this stuff. >> > > This has been discussed to death, and I don't think the body needs to > be exhumed for this case. > > Ok. I'll look it up. > /usr/sfw/bin (and the other far-flung /bin directories lurking in the > system) pose a serious and on-going usability problem for Solaris. > Users can't find what they need. They just assume that Solaris > doesn't include basic tools such as "make." They walk away. > > Why isn't updating the default PATH to include these other directories satisfactory? Why would a user need to know exactly where the tool lives if it's found and runs when they type 'make'? > Adding /usr/sfw/bin to the path doesn't fix the problem. It's not > needed on other platforms, so you end up in a confusing and incomplete > place. > > So if /usr/ucb, and /usr/sfw were added to the defautl path, then these same users who assume that 'make' isn't available, are going to be advanced wnough to notice the other directories in the PATH and be confused by them? These users are going to care? I'd think that if 'make' runs, they'll be happy and get on with their work. > That's not good for Sun or for Solaris. Thus, we rescinded that > earlier mistake. See "Enabling serendipitous discovery" (PSARC > 2005/185) for details, and either file a new case or an appeal if you > wish to overturn that one. > I don't object to adding things to Solaris that make it easier to use for those coming from other places. I just think we're throwing away things that longtime users of solaris are used to, and that keep them on solaris instead of linux. I think we'll be pushing out existing users, to attract the new ones. Seems like throwing out the baby with the bath water. I don't understand why GNOME tries to look alot like Windows. I don't understand why Solaris wants to look alot like Linux. Many talk about how mistakes are made in the Linux world, but then want to emulate them in Solaris? I think Solaris needs to continue to be, and show off, how it is better than linux, and not just the kernel or low level engineering stuff - the user visible stuff too. I also think Solaris needs to hang on to the users, developers and Fans it has now. -Kyle > From kyle.mcdonald@bigbandnet.com Thu Jan 25 09:51:06 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0PHp6IL004420 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 09:51:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0PHowhj020893; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 17:51:02 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCF00I05QWZO900@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 09:50:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.98.31]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCF00HYAQWYBU30@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 09:50:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay3.sun.com (relay3.sun.com [150.143.103.54] (may be forged)) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l0PHC6R4028893; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 10:50:58 -0700 (MST) Received: from mms09es.sun.com ([150.143.104.174] [150.143.104.174]) by relay3.sun.com with ESMTP; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 17:50:58 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay3.sun.com (relay3.sun.com [150.143.103.54]) by mms09es.sun.com with ESMTP; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 17:50:55 +0000 (Z) Received: from exprod8og57.obsmtp.com ([64.18.3.96] [64.18.3.96]) by relay3.sun.com; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 17:41:17 +0000 (Z) Received: from source ([65.126.230.68]) by exprod8ob57.obsmtp.com ([64.18.7.12]) with SMTP; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 09:18:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([10.30.8.236]) by wsb-srvr-02.bigbandnet.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 25 Jan 2007 12:36:44 -0500 Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 12:36:38 -0500 From: Kyle McDonald Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <45B8E5F2.8030402@sorted.org> To: Pete Bentley Cc: Joseph Kowalski , barts@eng.sun.com, gww@eng.sun.com, Joerg Schilling , PSARC-EXT@sun.com, Marcel Telka , Darren.Reed@sun.com Message-id: <45B8EAA6.4000508@BigBandNet.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200701240607.l0O67Z4O023171@marduk.eng.sun.com> <20070124061851.GB27682@eng.sun.com> <45B75FA2.1080504@sun.com> <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45B7DE7F.705@sun.com> <45B8DD89.8020309@BigBandNet.COM> <45B8E5F2.8030402@sorted.org> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 25 Jan 2007 17:36:44.0734 (UTC) FILETIME=[61C49DE0:01C740A7] Status: RO Content-Length: 2520 Pete Bentley wrote: > > It's a good solution for people who understand Solaris already and > know which directories they might need in their PATH, but I get the > impression this proposal is intended to create a "comfort zone" for > people coming from environments where they might expect a complete GNU > userland by default. > So update the defautl PATH to find these things, and most that don't wnat to delve into setting up PATH themselves will never know the tools live somewhere else. > However, rather than dumping it all in /usr/bin it might be better to > create a new bin directory (/usr/dustbin?) for those people which is > simply a symlink farm out to the various /usr/*/bin directories (much > the way Veritas put links from /opt/VRTS/bin/* to all their > /opt/VRTS/*/bin/* executables). > > Or this could even be achieved with package (SUNWlinuxcomfort) which > was not installed by default, and which built out a symlink farm from > /usr/bin ... That seems link an ugly solution to me though. > Maybe. Maybe not. >> The developers that we are looking to attract to work on solaris >> should have no problem understanding how to configure their path for >> their preferences. > > Without wanting to sound superior, I'm not so sure about that. People > coming from a Linux background will take some time to figure out what > they need, and it represents a "barrier to entry" where some > proportion of them will just assume Solaris sucks and give it up as a > bad job. > I understand the need to make the defaults look as comfortable as possible. I just think there are things we could do to engineer that default without disabling the flexibility that Solaris has today. A previous example was 'make'. How it's not expected to be in /usr/ucb. If you told me you wanted to move things from /usr/ucb to /usr/bin, I wouldn't object at all. That is moving Soalris tools from one dir to another. That's not bringing in a whole lot of non-solaris stuff into /usr/bin that should be optional on a per user basis. > >> A second reason to not do this: >> [...] >> It's bad practice in general to begin have an NFS directory too early >> in your $PATH. > > NFS or no, the more names you dump into /usr/bin (which is expected to > be early in people's PATH), the more likely you are to mask some local > application (or locally tailored version of an application) in a > directory further down the PATH which I think violates the Principle > of Least Astonishment. > Exactly. -Kyle From Darren.Reed@sun.com Thu Jan 25 09:51:39 2007 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0PHpdMX004450 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 09:51:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0PHpbQg006167; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 09:51:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCF00G19QY3FB00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 10:51:39 -0700 (MST) Received: from sineb-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.19.7]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCF00FE4QY0TO00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 10:51:38 -0700 (MST) Received: from fe-apac-03.sun.com (fe-apac-03.sun.com [192.18.19.174] (may be forged)) by sineb-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l0PHpa5G004582; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 01:51:36 +0800 (SGT) Received: from conversion-daemon.mail-apac.sun.com by mail-apac.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JCF00H01MV56X00@mail-apac.sun.com> (original mail from Darren.Reed@Sun.COM); Fri, 26 Jan 2007 01:51:36 +0800 (SGT) Received: from [129.157.19.198] by mail-apac.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JCF008G7QXWV700@mail-apac.sun.com>; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 01:51:36 +0800 (SGT) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 18:51:00 +0100 From: Darren Reed Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <45B8DD89.8020309@BigBandNet.COM> Sender: Darren.Reed@sun.com To: Kyle McDonald Cc: Joseph Kowalski , Marcel Telka , barts@eng.sun.com, gww@eng.sun.com, Joerg Schilling , PSARC-EXT@sun.com Message-id: <45B8EE04.7090300@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en-us, en X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200701240607.l0O67Z4O023171@marduk.eng.sun.com> <20070124061851.GB27682@eng.sun.com> <45B75FA2.1080504@sun.com> <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45B7DE7F.705@sun.com> <45B8DD89.8020309@BigBandNet.COM> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; SunOS i86pc; en-US; rv:1.7) Gecko/20060120 Status: RO Content-Length: 2680 Kyle McDonald wrote: > Joseph Kowalski wrote: > >> We want to start putting all user utilities with non-conflicting >> names into /usr/bin. > > Why? Please NO! > > I know I'm just a lowly long time user of Solaris, but please don't > polute /usr/bin with this stuff. > > I've always hated the linux approach of throwing everything in one > place. What was it another post said 4000+ programins in /usr/bin? > Yuck! I found the includion of GNOME in /usr/bin to be a mistake, and > I think others who orignally thought is was ok now think so too. Over the last...10+ years, my .cshrc file has travelled with me from job to job, platform to platform and generally just grows as it needs to find exes in each place...this is what it currently is: foreach i ( ~/bin{,/$arch.$rev} /krb5/bin /opt/ansic/bin /bin \ /krb5/sbin /sbin /etc /usr/bin /usr/ccs/bin /bin /usr/dist/exe \ /usr/local/sbin /opt/{hpnp,local,gnu,sfw,CTEact,SUNWspro,jdk}/bin \ /opt/SUNWspro/SOS8/bin ) if ( -d $i ) then set path=($path $i) if ($?prompt) echo -n "$i "; endif end foreach i ( /usr/{sbin,proc/bin,bsd,ucb,local}/{sbin,rcs,bin/{,nn,mh},etc}} ) if ( -d $i ) then set path=($path $i) if ($?prompt) echo -n "$i "; endif end foreach i ( /usr/{pkg,sfw,proc}/bin /usr/{X11{,R5,R6}/bin,etc,XFree86/bin} \ /usr/bin/X11 /usr/contrib/bin/X11 /usr/{games,hosts,acad/acad} ) if ( -d "$i" ) then set path=($path $i) if ($?prompt) echo -n "$i "; endif end foreach i ( /krb5/admin /users/public/{scripts,acad_train} \ /usr/openwin/{bin,demo} ) if ( -d $i ) then set path=($path $i) if ($?prompt) echo -n "$i "; endif end foreach i ( /usr/cpu/sysgen/root/usr/{sbin,bin} /usr/contrib/Q4/bin \ /opt/{FOREatm,tusc,ipf,java,optimation}/bin \ /opt/{imake,langtools}/bin ) if ( -d "$i" ) then set path=($path $i) if ($?prompt) echo -n "$i "; endif endif end foreach i ( /usr/{freeware,contrib}/bin /emul/sunos/usr/{openwin,local}/bin \ /usr/contrib/win32/bin /opt/onbld/bin ) if ( -d $i ) then set path=($path $i) if ($?prompt) echo -n "$i "; endif end rehash if ($?prompt) echo ""; ...and that excludes things to find tools to build Solaris. Now explain to me why we need to add another directory rather than just populate one directory more fully? Darren p.s. there are too many path components for one foreach(). From carlsonj@phorcys.east.sun.com Thu Jan 25 10:00:46 2007 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0PI0jqS004944 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 10:00:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0PI0fTL007074; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 10:00:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCF00H05RD5JQ00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 11:00:41 -0700 (MST) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com ([129.148.174.143]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCF00F86RD4TO10@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 11:00:40 -0700 (MST) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l0PI0d5U000617; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 13:00:39 -0500 (EST) Received: (from carlsonj@localhost) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/Submit) id l0PI0d34000612; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 13:00:39 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 13:00:38 -0500 From: James Carlson Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <45B8EAA6.4000508@BigBandNet.COM> To: Kyle McDonald Cc: Pete Bentley , Joseph Kowalski , barts@eng.sun.com, gww@eng.sun.com, Joerg Schilling , PSARC-EXT@sun.com, Marcel Telka , Darren.Reed@sun.com Message-id: <17848.61510.732116.319497@gargle.gargle.HOWL> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: VM 7.01 under Emacs 21.3.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200701240607.l0O67Z4O023171@marduk.eng.sun.com> <20070124061851.GB27682@eng.sun.com> <45B75FA2.1080504@sun.com> <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45B7DE7F.705@sun.com> <45B8DD89.8020309@BigBandNet.COM> <45B8E5F2.8030402@sorted.org> <45B8EAA6.4000508@BigBandNet.COM> Status: RO Content-Length: 882 Kyle McDonald writes: > A previous example was 'make'. How it's not expected to be in /usr/ucb. And, not surprisingly, it's not there: % ls /usr/ucb/make /usr/ucb/make: No such file or directory It's actually over in /usr/ccs/bin, so that prying eyes won't find it. In some cases, we do an even better job of obfuscating the system, such as with the nuggets buried in /usr/sadm/admin/bin. > If you told me you wanted to move things from /usr/ucb to /usr/bin, I > wouldn't object at all. I sure would, unless you're just talking about "non-conflicting" things. Moving the rest entirely misses the point. 'ucb' is an environment; it's like /usr/xpg4. -- James Carlson, Solaris Networking Sun Microsystems / 1 Network Drive 71.232W Vox +1 781 442 2084 MS UBUR02-212 / Burlington MA 01803-2757 42.496N Fax +1 781 442 1677 From Paul.Jakma@Sun.COM Thu Jan 25 10:08:06 2007 Received: from sunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM (sunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.17]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0PI86Kd004989 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 10:08:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.11.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0PI85T05856; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 11:08:05 -0700 (MST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCF00I4DRPF6Y00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 11:08:03 -0700 (MST) Received: from gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com ([129.156.42.6]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCF00F8PRPETF10@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 11:08:03 -0700 (MST) Received: from d1-emea-09.sun.com ([192.18.2.119]) by gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l0PI81G9024184; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 18:08:01 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-emea-09.sun.com by d1-emea-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JCF00801RODFE00@d1-emea-09.sun.com> (original mail from Paul.Jakma@Sun.COM); Thu, 25 Jan 2007 18:08:01 +0000 (GMT) Received: from melandri.lan ([62.6.163.68]) by d1-emea-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JCF00JHKRPDK420@d1-emea-09.sun.com>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 18:08:01 +0000 (GMT) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 18:07:46 +0000 (GMT) From: Paul Jakma Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <45B8EE04.7090300@sun.com> Sender: Paul.Jakma@Sun.COM To: Darren Reed Cc: Kyle McDonald , Joseph Kowalski , Marcel Telka , barts@eng.sun.com, gww@eng.sun.com, Joerg Schilling , PSARC-EXT@Sun.COM Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200701240607.l0O67Z4O023171@marduk.eng.sun.com> <20070124061851.GB27682@eng.sun.com> <45B75FA2.1080504@sun.com> <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45B7DE7F.705@sun.com> <45B8DD89.8020309@BigBandNet.COM> <45B8EE04.7090300@sun.com> Status: RO Content-Length: 1579 On Thu, 25 Jan 2007, Darren Reed wrote: > Now explain to me why we need to add another directory rather > than just populate one directory more fully? Well: 1. You shouldn't need to add another directory, the system should just have it added to the PATH via the system profile if the system intends ordinary users to have those commands available. - all a user should need to do is include a standard system profile to get the standard system PATH - allows per-package PATH modifications to be delivered, PATH addition per file, to some standard directory (pulled in by system profile automatically) 2. While it's possible to combine binaries in many directories into one namespace^WPATH, it is impossible for users to unsplit binaries from the namespace if they're all delivered into one directory. I'm curious why: echo '. /etc/profile' > ~/.profile is anymore difficult for users than: echo 'export PATH="/usr/bin"' > ~/.profile for sh? (Presume some user who has managed to bork his environment - most users should have a system delivered environment). I suspect the /real/ reason for /usr/bin advocacy is simply so as to avoid continued, ongoing /usr/XYZ namespace discussions, but I still have to read the ARC case Jim cited. /usr/bin avoids those, at the cost of lumping /everyone/ with ginormous number of binaries in their PATH. regards, -- Paul Jakma, Network Approachability, KISS. Sun Microsystems, Dublin, Ireland. http://opensolaris.org/os/project/quagga tel: EMEA x19190 / +353 1 819 9190 From kyle.mcdonald@bigbandnet.com Thu Jan 25 10:10:41 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0PIAeVb005110 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 10:10:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0PIAMCs027829; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 02:10:35 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCF00G0FRTLGR00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 10:10:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from sca-ea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.43.24]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCF009NMRTLJN50@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 10:10:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay2.sun.com (relay2.sun.com [150.143.103.24] (may be forged)) by sca-ea-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l0PI3UoB027152; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 10:10:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from mms0bes.sun.com ([150.143.104.214] [150.143.104.214]) by relay2.sun.com with ESMTP; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 18:10:32 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay3.sun.com (relay3.sun.com [150.143.103.54]) by mms0bes.sun.com with ESMTP; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 18:10:28 +0000 (Z) Received: from exprod8og52.obsmtp.com ([64.18.3.86] [64.18.3.86]) by relay3.sun.com; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 18:03:12 +0000 (Z) Received: from source ([65.126.230.68]) by exprod8ob52.obsmtp.com ([64.18.7.12]) with SMTP; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 10:01:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([10.30.8.236]) by wsb-srvr-02.bigbandnet.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 25 Jan 2007 13:01:03 -0500 Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 13:00:47 -0500 From: Kyle McDonald Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <20070125173303.GB12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> To: Nicolas Williams Cc: Marcel Telka , PSARC-EXT@sun.com Message-id: <45B8F04F.4040900@BigBandNet.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <17847.37781.741472.969057@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20070124183623.GB17316@eng.sun.com> <17847.51094.526008.806655@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <45B7C8E0.9040808@BigBandNet.COM> <1169673362.1569.62.camel@loghost> <45B7D15E.6070708@BigBandNet.COM> <1169716337.4335.3.camel@tortuga> <45B8E049.6090701@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125171031.GA12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8E545.2090005@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125173303.GB12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 25 Jan 2007 18:01:03.0650 (UTC) FILETIME=[C7598820:01C740AA] Status: RO Content-Length: 2847 Nicolas Williams wrote: > On Thu, Jan 25, 2007 at 12:13:41PM -0500, Kyle McDonald wrote: > >> As I wrote in another post. Please don't put anything OSS in /usr/bin. >> > > Er, there's plenty of non-Sun originated OSS in /usr/bin already. I know. Perl already causes me tons of problems. Can't not install it either since so many Sun originated parts of Solaris depend on the perl that Solaris uses now. It's a royal pain! Can't uninstall large portions of GNOME either without removing other parts of Solaris that now depend on it too. Ditto with Apache. (I even have this problem with Java - It updates much more often than Solaris, and the one in /usr/bin is usually out of date compared to what I have available on my network.) When this GNU tool chain is available in /usr/bin on Solaris, What is going to stop Sun-original development from depending on it? If I will always be free to decide to not install the packages that contain these GNU tools (not because I don't like the tools, but because I have another more up to date, and easier to maintain method of providing them to my customers,) then I have less objections to this. But given the examples of Perl and Apache, I see a future where key parts of Solaris that I won't want to do without relying on these GNU tools, and I'll be forced to install them. > And > OpenSolaris *is* OSS, so much of /usr/bin is OSS. > > So, I don't understand this comment. > > If this change is just for OpenSolaris then I might have less of a problem with it. If Sun Solaris is always an alternative for me to use instead. But if it's a change to both then I stick to my points for why this is a bad idea. Why other solutions would achieve the same goals (or nearly the same) and not eliminate the possibilities for people who have other ways of providing this functionality. It's always seemed to me that Solaris had a more 'network' view of things. The defaults were manytimes setup to make it easier to use single accounts across multiple machines (default home automount map for example.) On the other hand Linux, from it's home-user, single, remote hobby based developer roots has had a more 'everything installed on a single machine' mentality. I think having solaris include all this stuff by default *in a place that is hard to avoid* is a mistake. If it was easy to avoid it at user level then I'd have no argument. > The only reasonable distinction w.r.t. what goes into /usr/bin is > interface stability and/or Sun support for it. And the ARC already > decided that serendipitous discovery of unstable interfaces is now OK. > > That matter being closed I see no reason not to put 4,000 new things > into /usr/bin, and I expect the ARC would agree. > > Like I said. I didn't think I'd have much say here. Just wanted to be heard. -Kyle From kyle.mcdonald@bigbandnet.com Thu Jan 25 10:13:28 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0PIDR5O005149 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 10:13:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0PIDL0E028866; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 18:13:22 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCF00G09RY6S700@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 10:13:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from sca-ea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.43.25]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCF009XDRY5JS30@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 10:13:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay12.sun.com (relay12.sun.com [217.140.40.34] (may be forged)) by sca-ea-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l0PIDGMS020507; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 10:13:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from mms12es.sun.com ([160.41.223.34] [160.41.223.34]) by relay12.sun.com with ESMTP; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 18:13:15 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay13.sun.com (relay13.sun.com [217.140.40.54]) by mms12es.sun.com with ESMTP; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 18:13:15 +0000 (Z) Received: from exprod8og57.obsmtp.com ([64.18.3.96] [64.18.3.96]) by relay13.sun.com; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 18:10:23 +0000 (Z) Received: from source ([65.126.230.68]) by exprod8ob57.obsmtp.com ([64.18.7.12]) with SMTP; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 10:06:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([10.30.8.236]) by wsb-srvr-02.bigbandnet.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 25 Jan 2007 13:06:47 -0500 Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 13:06:43 -0500 From: Kyle McDonald Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <20070125173913.GC12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> To: Nicolas Williams Cc: Joseph Kowalski , Marcel Telka , barts@eng.sun.com, gww@eng.sun.com, Joerg Schilling , PSARC-EXT@sun.com, Darren.Reed@sun.com Message-id: <45B8F1B3.7080302@BigBandNet.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200701240607.l0O67Z4O023171@marduk.eng.sun.com> <20070124061851.GB27682@eng.sun.com> <45B75FA2.1080504@sun.com> <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45B7DE7F.705@sun.com> <45B8DD89.8020309@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125170857.GZ12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8E642.3090006@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125173913.GC12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 25 Jan 2007 18:06:47.0574 (UTC) FILETIME=[94582B60:01C740AB] Status: RO Content-Length: 1893 Nicolas Williams wrote: > On Thu, Jan 25, 2007 at 12:17:54PM -0500, Kyle McDonald wrote: > >> Nicolas Williams wrote: >> >>> The problem with *PATH is that it's too difficult to use. Wanna change >>> it? First you need to know what shell you're using, then you need to >>> edit the right dot files. That's insane -- try building a GUI around >>> that. Sure, JDS/GNOME could have a different authoritative location of >>> *PATH configuration and the stock dot files could preserve whatever >>> *PATH are set by the GUI environment, but when logging in without a GUI >>> you lose, or if you edit your dot files and do the wrong thing, you >>> lose. >>> >>> >> Why have an additional place? You lost me there. >> >> I'm all for updating the *default* path to include this stuf, so that >> the 'average' user doesn't have to go looking. >> I'm just against taking this tool (and it is a tool) away from the >> developers and users who know how to use it. >> > > If we can provide enough of an environment in /usr/bin that having it in > your PATH (and you generally would, no matter what you did with your dot > files) gets you a fairly complete environment, then that reduces the > need for complex PATH management. > > That's fine as long as the environment you provide is the one the users want. By front loading the environment with basicallyy everything, you're denying the user or the admin the ability to override your default environment. It stops being a 'default' environment, and becomes the only environment. PATH allows users to configure their environment as they like it. Most set it once and forget it. If the only way to allow a user to avoid these tools, is to not install them, then that forces all users on the system to not have access to them also. Reducing the granularity is vastly restricting the flexibility and choice. -Kyle From brian.utterback@sun.com Thu Jan 25 10:14:12 2007 Received: from sunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM (sunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.17]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0PIECXf005167 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 10:14:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.11.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0PIEBT15721; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 11:14:11 -0700 (MST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCF00L05RZKXV00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 10:14:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from eastmail1bur.East.Sun.COM ([129.148.9.49]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCF00L7SRZJS400@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 10:14:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from [129.148.226.12] (sr1-unsh01-02.East.Sun.COM [129.148.226.12]) by eastmail1bur.East.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0PIE1db002470; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 13:14:02 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 13:14:01 -0500 From: Brian Utterback Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <45B8EE04.7090300@sun.com> To: Darren Reed Cc: Kyle McDonald , Joseph Kowalski , Marcel Telka , barts@eng.sun.com, gww@eng.sun.com, Joerg Schilling , PSARC-EXT@sun.com Message-id: <45B8F369.8090602@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200701240607.l0O67Z4O023171@marduk.eng.sun.com> <20070124061851.GB27682@eng.sun.com> <45B75FA2.1080504@sun.com> <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45B7DE7F.705@sun.com> <45B8DD89.8020309@BigBandNet.COM> <45B8EE04.7090300@sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0b2pre (X11/20070121) Status: RO Content-Length: 3651 I have a trick for you. In your .cshrc file, instead of adding each directory to your path in the foreach statements, do this: set tpath=$path foreach.... set tpath=($tpath $i) ... set path=$tpath The reason for this is that the csh dumps its execname cache on each assignment to $path and then re-reads all of the directories in the new path to rebuild the cache. Thus each directory in your path gets read and re-read again and again, when once is enough. I discovered this when I started wondering why it took so long to login. Darren Reed wrote: > Kyle McDonald wrote: > >> Joseph Kowalski wrote: >> >>> We want to start putting all user utilities with non-conflicting >>> names into /usr/bin. >> >> Why? Please NO! >> >> I know I'm just a lowly long time user of Solaris, but please don't >> polute /usr/bin with this stuff. >> >> I've always hated the linux approach of throwing everything in one >> place. What was it another post said 4000+ programins in /usr/bin? >> Yuck! I found the includion of GNOME in /usr/bin to be a mistake, and >> I think others who orignally thought is was ok now think so too. > > > Over the last...10+ years, my .cshrc file has travelled with me > from job to job, platform to platform and generally just grows > as it needs to find exes in each place...this is what it currently is: > > foreach i ( ~/bin{,/$arch.$rev} /krb5/bin /opt/ansic/bin /bin \ > /krb5/sbin /sbin /etc /usr/bin /usr/ccs/bin /bin /usr/dist/exe \ > /usr/local/sbin > /opt/{hpnp,local,gnu,sfw,CTEact,SUNWspro,jdk}/bin \ > /opt/SUNWspro/SOS8/bin ) > if ( -d $i ) then > set path=($path $i) > if ($?prompt) echo -n "$i "; > endif > end > foreach i ( > /usr/{sbin,proc/bin,bsd,ucb,local}/{sbin,rcs,bin/{,nn,mh},etc}} ) > if ( -d $i ) then > set path=($path $i) > if ($?prompt) echo -n "$i "; > endif > end > foreach i ( /usr/{pkg,sfw,proc}/bin > /usr/{X11{,R5,R6}/bin,etc,XFree86/bin} \ > /usr/bin/X11 /usr/contrib/bin/X11 /usr/{games,hosts,acad/acad} ) > if ( -d "$i" ) then > set path=($path $i) > if ($?prompt) echo -n "$i "; > endif > end > > foreach i ( /krb5/admin /users/public/{scripts,acad_train} \ > /usr/openwin/{bin,demo} ) > if ( -d $i ) then > set path=($path $i) > if ($?prompt) echo -n "$i "; > endif > end > foreach i ( /usr/cpu/sysgen/root/usr/{sbin,bin} /usr/contrib/Q4/bin \ > /opt/{FOREatm,tusc,ipf,java,optimation}/bin \ > /opt/{imake,langtools}/bin ) > if ( -d "$i" ) then > set path=($path $i) > if ($?prompt) echo -n "$i "; > endif > endif > end > foreach i ( /usr/{freeware,contrib}/bin > /emul/sunos/usr/{openwin,local}/bin \ > /usr/contrib/win32/bin /opt/onbld/bin ) > if ( -d $i ) then > set path=($path $i) > if ($?prompt) echo -n "$i "; > endif > end > rehash > if ($?prompt) echo ""; > > ...and that excludes things to find tools to build Solaris. > > Now explain to me why we need to add another directory rather > than just populate one directory more fully? > > Darren > > p.s. there are too many path components for one foreach(). -- blu "Remember 'A Thousand Points of Light'? With a network, we now have a thousand points of failure." ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Brian Utterback - Solaris RPE, Sun Microsystems, Inc. Ph:877-259-7345, Em:brian.utterback-at-ess-you-enn-dot-kom From nw141292@binky.Central.Sun.COM Thu Jan 25 10:21:22 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0PILLmG005197 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 10:21:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0PILAKI001940; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 18:21:15 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCF00M01SBCUV00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 10:21:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM ([129.153.128.104]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCF00LY0SBBRM00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 10:21:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0PIKh1U027071; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 12:20:43 -0600 (CST) Received: (from nw141292@localhost) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/Submit) id l0PIKg6d027070; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 12:20:42 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 12:20:42 -0600 From: Nicolas Williams Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <45B8F1B3.7080302@BigBandNet.COM> To: Kyle McDonald Cc: Joseph Kowalski , Marcel Telka , barts@eng.sun.com, gww@eng.sun.com, Joerg Schilling , PSARC-EXT@sun.com, Darren.Reed@sun.com Message-id: <20070125182042.GG12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <20070124061851.GB27682@eng.sun.com> <45B75FA2.1080504@sun.com> <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45B7DE7F.705@sun.com> <45B8DD89.8020309@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125170857.GZ12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8E642.3090006@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125173913.GC12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8F1B3.7080302@BigBandNet.COM> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.7i Status: RO Content-Length: 1150 On Thu, Jan 25, 2007 at 01:06:43PM -0500, Kyle McDonald wrote: > >If we can provide enough of an environment in /usr/bin that having it in > >your PATH (and you generally would, no matter what you did with your dot > >files) gets you a fairly complete environment, then that reduces the > >need for complex PATH management. > > [Is there any point to continuing this sub-thread given that the issue has already been decided? As James said, you could file an appeal.] > That's fine as long as the environment you provide is the one the users > want. By front loading the environment with basicallyy everything, > you're denying the user or the admin the ability to override your > default environment. A default environment that makes 90% of users/developers happy and provides the remaining 10% with ways to override the environment so it is more similar to XPG4, XPG6, BSD, Linux, whatever, is worth having. > It stops being a 'default' environment, and becomes the only environment. No. It asymptotically approaches "only environment" status as people stop creating conflicts and the volume of non-conflicts dwarfs conflicts. Nico -- From carlsonj@phorcys.east.sun.com Thu Jan 25 10:26:41 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0PIQed8005239 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 10:26:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0PIQWT7003668; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 18:26:38 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCF00H0DSKCPL00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 10:26:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com ([129.148.174.143]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCF0095XSKCJN70@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 10:26:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l0PIQahu001020; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 13:26:36 -0500 (EST) Received: (from carlsonj@localhost) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/Submit) id l0PIQa6u001017; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 13:26:36 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 13:26:35 -0500 From: James Carlson Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <45B8F04F.4040900@BigBandNet.COM> To: Kyle McDonald Cc: Nicolas Williams , PSARC-EXT@sun.com, Marcel Telka Message-id: <17848.63067.858692.874579@gargle.gargle.HOWL> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: VM 7.01 under Emacs 21.3.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <17847.37781.741472.969057@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20070124183623.GB17316@eng.sun.com> <17847.51094.526008.806655@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <45B7C8E0.9040808@BigBandNet.COM> <1169673362.1569.62.camel@loghost> <45B7D15E.6070708@BigBandNet.COM> <1169716337.4335.3.camel@tortuga> <45B8E049.6090701@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125171031.GA12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8E545.2090005@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125173303.GB12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8F04F.4040900@BigBandNet.COM> Status: RO Content-Length: 827 Kyle McDonald writes: > When this GNU tool chain is available in /usr/bin on Solaris, What is > going to stop Sun-original development from depending on it? At least two things will: - Depending on a GPLv2 object (as opposed to merely being bundled with it) generally forces one to adopt a GPLv2 license. That limits the possible audience. - A project cannot import interfaces that have stability levels incompatible with the intended usage. Thus, the mostly "Volatile" interfaces over in /usr/gnu can't be used outside of that consolidation without explicit ARC approval. -- James Carlson, Solaris Networking Sun Microsystems / 1 Network Drive 71.232W Vox +1 781 442 2084 MS UBUR02-212 / Burlington MA 01803-2757 42.496N Fax +1 781 442 1677 From nw141292@binky.Central.Sun.COM Thu Jan 25 10:28:16 2007 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0PISG1Z005302 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 10:28:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0PISAfP015184; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 10:28:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCF00K0RSMXJA00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 11:28:09 -0700 (MST) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM ([129.153.128.104]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCF00FWASMWTO20@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 11:28:09 -0700 (MST) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0PIRgqW027113; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 12:27:42 -0600 (CST) Received: (from nw141292@localhost) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/Submit) id l0PIRggs027112; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 12:27:42 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 12:27:42 -0600 From: Nicolas Williams Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <45B8E5F2.8030402@sorted.org> To: Pete Bentley Cc: Kyle McDonald , barts@eng.sun.com, gww@eng.sun.com, Joerg Schilling , Joseph Kowalski , PSARC-EXT@sun.com, Marcel Telka , Darren.Reed@sun.com Message-id: <20070125182741.GH12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200701240607.l0O67Z4O023171@marduk.eng.sun.com> <20070124061851.GB27682@eng.sun.com> <45B75FA2.1080504@sun.com> <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45B7DE7F.705@sun.com> <45B8DD89.8020309@BigBandNet.COM> <45B8E5F2.8030402@sorted.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.7i Status: RO Content-Length: 1231 On Thu, Jan 25, 2007 at 05:16:34PM +0000, Pete Bentley wrote: > >A second reason to not do this: > >[...] > >It's bad practice in general to begin have an NFS directory too early in > >your $PATH. > > NFS or no, the more names you dump into /usr/bin (which is expected to > be early in people's PATH), the more likely you are to mask some local > application (or locally tailored version of an application) in a > directory further down the PATH which I think violates the Principle of > Least Astonishment. That's an argument for closing off /usr/bin. Everything should go into a /usr/pkg/*/bin or /opt/*/bin or whatever, and every user is responsible for maintaining a very long PATH or a lynk farm. Engineering is about trade-offs, and that's not a very good one. Making 90% of users happy and telling the other 10% to manage their PATHs is a very reasonable engineering decision, and you can see serendipitous discovery as just that. As for things like the multiplicity of versions of things like Perl or Apache, this is the case regardless of whether any one version of those appears in /usr/bin. When you know you need a specific version of Perl then use that in your scripts, not the default version. Nico -- From kyle.mcdonald@bigbandnet.com Thu Jan 25 10:35:56 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0PIZtWr005523 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 10:35:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0PIZkZ6004700; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 02:35:48 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCF00109SZLRV00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 10:35:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com ([192.18.98.36]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCF00LGDSZJRM20@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 10:35:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay1.sun.com (relay1.sun.com [150.143.103.14] (may be forged)) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l0PGP9vO021947; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 11:35:43 -0700 (MST) Received: from mms06es.sun.com ([150.143.104.114] [150.143.104.114]) by relay1.sun.com with ESMTP; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 18:35:43 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay1.sun.com (relay1.sun.com [150.143.103.14]) by mms06es.sun.com with ESMTP; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 18:35:42 +0000 (Z) Received: from exprod8og51.obsmtp.com ([64.18.3.84] [64.18.3.84]) by relay1.sun.com; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 18:35:42 +0000 (Z) Received: from source ([65.126.230.68]) by exprod8ob51.obsmtp.com ([64.18.7.12]) with SMTP; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 10:31:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([10.30.8.236]) by wsb-srvr-02.bigbandnet.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 25 Jan 2007 13:31:47 -0500 Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 13:31:25 -0500 From: Kyle McDonald Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <20070125182042.GG12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> To: Nicolas Williams Cc: Joseph Kowalski , Marcel Telka , barts@eng.sun.com, gww@eng.sun.com, Joerg Schilling , PSARC-EXT@sun.com, Darren.Reed@sun.com Message-id: <45B8F77D.2060707@BigBandNet.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <20070124061851.GB27682@eng.sun.com> <45B75FA2.1080504@sun.com> <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45B7DE7F.705@sun.com> <45B8DD89.8020309@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125170857.GZ12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8E642.3090006@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125173913.GC12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8F1B3.7080302@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125182042.GG12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 25 Jan 2007 18:31:47.0255 (UTC) FILETIME=[12395470:01C740AF] Status: RO Content-Length: 1850 Nicolas Williams wrote: > On Thu, Jan 25, 2007 at 01:06:43PM -0500, Kyle McDonald wrote: > >>> If we can provide enough of an environment in /usr/bin that having it in >>> your PATH (and you generally would, no matter what you did with your dot >>> files) gets you a fairly complete environment, then that reduces the >>> need for complex PATH management. >>> >>> > > [Is there any point to continuing this sub-thread given that the issue has already been decided? As James said, you could file an appeal.] > I guess I'm looking to learn. > A default environment that makes 90% of users/developers happy and > provides the remaining 10% with ways to override the environment so it > is more similar to XPG4, XPG6, BSD, Linux, whatever, is worth having. > > Maybe this is the source of the miscommunication: When I said 'override', I'm not talking about just selecting different behavior like the examples you provide. I'm talking about selecting the same behavior of the same tools, but from a different location. The 3rd Party tools included in Solaris are almost always out of date before the DVD's are pressed, and I think it's a useful feature to be able to elect to run these tools from a centrally maintained network source. If everything is in /usr/bin, how do I configure my users environments to look for these things on the network *before* /usr/bin, and yet allow them to get OS level things (mv, rm, ls, etc.) locally even when the network server is having issues? I guess I'll just have to put the network path first, and then invest in HA-NFS. -Kyle >> It stops being a 'default' environment, and becomes the only environment. >> > > No. It asymptotically approaches "only environment" status as people > stop creating conflicts and the volume of non-conflicts dwarfs > conflicts. > > Nico > From kyle.mcdonald@bigbandnet.com Thu Jan 25 10:40:55 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0PIesMH005772 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 10:40:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0PIeaPB008604; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 18:40:49 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCF0020JT80G100@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 10:40:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com ([192.18.98.36]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCF00LKQT7YS520@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 10:40:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay24.sun.com (ip192-12-251-74.block6.us.syntegra.com [192.12.251.74]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l0PIekJZ013732; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 11:40:46 -0700 (MST) Received: from mms25es.sun.com ([150.143.232.94] [150.143.232.94]) by relay24.sun.com with ESMTP; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 18:40:46 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay24.sun.com (relay24.sun.com [192.12.251.74]) by mms25es.sun.com with ESMTP; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 18:40:44 +0000 (Z) Received: from exprod8og57.obsmtp.com ([64.18.3.96] [64.18.3.96]) by relay24.sun.com; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 18:19:53 +0000 (Z) Received: from source ([65.126.230.68]) by exprod8ob57.obsmtp.com ([64.18.7.12]) with SMTP; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 10:06:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([10.30.8.236]) by wsb-srvr-02.bigbandnet.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 25 Jan 2007 13:08:25 -0500 Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 13:08:28 -0500 From: Kyle McDonald Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <17848.61510.732116.319497@gargle.gargle.HOWL> To: James Carlson Cc: Pete Bentley , Joseph Kowalski , barts@eng.sun.com, gww@eng.sun.com, Joerg Schilling , PSARC-EXT@sun.com, Marcel Telka , Darren.Reed@sun.com Message-id: <45B8F21C.3030001@BigBandNet.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200701240607.l0O67Z4O023171@marduk.eng.sun.com> <20070124061851.GB27682@eng.sun.com> <45B75FA2.1080504@sun.com> <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45B7DE7F.705@sun.com> <45B8DD89.8020309@BigBandNet.COM> <45B8E5F2.8030402@sorted.org> <45B8EAA6.4000508@BigBandNet.COM> <17848.61510.732116.319497@gargle.gargle.HOWL> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 25 Jan 2007 18:08:25.0605 (UTC) FILETIME=[CEC68350:01C740AB] Status: RO Content-Length: 813 James Carlson wrote: > Kyle McDonald writes: > >> A previous example was 'make'. How it's not expected to be in /usr/ucb. >> > > And, not surprisingly, it's not there: > > You're right. I appologixe. s/ucb/ccs/ Sorry. I messed that up. > % ls /usr/ucb/make > /usr/ucb/make: No such file or directory > > It's actually over in /usr/ccs/bin, so that prying eyes won't find > it. In some cases, we do an even better job of obfuscating the > system, such as with the nuggets buried in /usr/sadm/admin/bin. > > >> If you told me you wanted to move things from /usr/ucb to /usr/bin, I >> wouldn't object at all. >> > > I sure would, unless you're just talking about "non-conflicting" > things. Moving the rest entirely misses the point. 'ucb' is an > environment; it's like /usr/xpg4. > > From nw141292@binky.Central.Sun.COM Thu Jan 25 10:42:37 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0PIgao7005983 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 10:42:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0PIgUc5009188; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 18:42:32 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCF0020ZTAUJR00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 10:42:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM ([129.153.128.104]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCF00L9OTATRN20@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 10:42:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0PIg3T8027222; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 12:42:03 -0600 (CST) Received: (from nw141292@localhost) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/Submit) id l0PIg3w2027221; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 12:42:03 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 12:42:03 -0600 From: Nicolas Williams Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <45B8F77D.2060707@BigBandNet.COM> To: Kyle McDonald Cc: Joseph Kowalski , Marcel Telka , barts@eng.sun.com, gww@eng.sun.com, Joerg Schilling , PSARC-EXT@sun.com, Darren.Reed@sun.com Message-id: <20070125184202.GJ12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45B7DE7F.705@sun.com> <45B8DD89.8020309@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125170857.GZ12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8E642.3090006@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125173913.GC12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8F1B3.7080302@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125182042.GG12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8F77D.2060707@BigBandNet.COM> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.7i Status: RO Content-Length: 1211 On Thu, Jan 25, 2007 at 01:31:25PM -0500, Kyle McDonald wrote: > If everything is in /usr/bin, how do I configure my users environments > to look for these things on the network *before* /usr/bin, and yet allow > them to get OS level things (mv, rm, ls, etc.) locally even when the > network server is having issues? Networked filesystems are an issue no matter what. The issue isn't just order of appearance in PATH: home directories are normally on NFS servers too. And networked filesystems are an issue because the relevant filesystem system calls are synchronous and don't provide a simple way for apps to deal with timeouts. And that's because before networked filesystems such features weren't needed. Those interfaces have stuck around due to their ease of use and familiarity, and now we pay this price, that when file servers go away their clients become unresponsive. > I guess I'll just have to put the network path first, and then invest in > HA-NFS. You had to do the latter anyways. As to the former, avoid conflicts and you're OK; of course, we can create conflicts any time, but that's part and parcel of the trade-offs involved in serendipitous discovery. Life's tough. Nico -- From kyle.mcdonald@bigbandnet.com Thu Jan 25 10:50:26 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0PIoQs8006158 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 10:50:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0PIoGFA011339; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 18:50:20 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCF00J0RTNUC000@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 10:50:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com ([192.18.98.36]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCF009T8TNUJZ60@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 10:50:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay11.sun.com (relay11.sun.com [217.140.40.14] (may be forged)) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l0PIoHVP021844; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 11:50:17 -0700 (MST) Received: from mms11es.sun.com ([160.41.223.14] [160.41.223.14]) by relay11.sun.com with ESMTP; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 18:50:16 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay12.sun.com (relay12.sun.com [217.140.40.34]) by mms11es.sun.com with ESMTP; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 18:50:16 +0000 (Z) Received: from exprod8og54.obsmtp.com ([64.18.3.90] [64.18.3.90]) by relay12.sun.com; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 18:50:16 +0000 (Z) Received: from source ([65.126.230.68]) by exprod8ob54.obsmtp.com ([64.18.7.12]) with SMTP; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 10:46:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([10.30.8.236]) by wsb-srvr-02.bigbandnet.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 25 Jan 2007 13:47:26 -0500 Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 13:46:58 -0500 From: Kyle McDonald Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <20070125182741.GH12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> To: Nicolas Williams Cc: Pete Bentley , barts@eng.sun.com, gww@eng.sun.com, Joerg Schilling , Joseph Kowalski , PSARC-EXT@sun.com, Marcel Telka , Darren.Reed@sun.com Message-id: <45B8FB22.6080509@BigBandNet.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200701240607.l0O67Z4O023171@marduk.eng.sun.com> <20070124061851.GB27682@eng.sun.com> <45B75FA2.1080504@sun.com> <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45B7DE7F.705@sun.com> <45B8DD89.8020309@BigBandNet.COM> <45B8E5F2.8030402@sorted.org> <20070125182741.GH12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 25 Jan 2007 18:47:26.0837 (UTC) FILETIME=[42422A50:01C740B1] Status: RO Content-Length: 2055 Nicolas Williams wrote: > On Thu, Jan 25, 2007 at 05:16:34PM +0000, Pete Bentley wrote: > >>> A second reason to not do this: >>> [...] >>> It's bad practice in general to begin have an NFS directory too early in >>> your $PATH. >>> >> NFS or no, the more names you dump into /usr/bin (which is expected to >> be early in people's PATH), the more likely you are to mask some local >> application (or locally tailored version of an application) in a >> directory further down the PATH which I think violates the Principle of >> Least Astonishment. >> > > That's an argument for closing off /usr/bin. Everything should go into > a /usr/pkg/*/bin or /opt/*/bin or whatever, and every user is > responsible for maintaining a very long PATH or a lynk farm. > > > Engineering is about trade-offs, and that's not a very good one. Making > 90% of users happy and telling the other 10% to manage their PATHs is a > very reasonable engineering decision, and you can see serendipitous > discovery as just that. > > I agree it's about trade-offs. And if it were possible to work around this by 'managing' my PATH I'd just do it. But this change is effectively 'trading off' the users ability to do what I'm describing by managing their PATH. There is no other PATH that can be used to do this. > As for things like the multiplicity of versions of things like Perl or > Apache, this is the case regardless of whether any one version of those > appears in /usr/bin. When you know you need a specific version of Perl > then use that in your scripts, not the default version. > > If it were only calling things from scripts that'd be fine. (I do hard code #1 references and other calls to exectuables in my scripts already.) But when it comes to running things from the command line there's no other choice - well users could create aliases for every command... You think maintiaining PATHs in dot files is work, try maintaining aliases for ever executable that you want to avoid getting from /usr/bin. -Kyle > Nico > From kyle.mcdonald@bigbandnet.com Thu Jan 25 11:00:39 2007 Received: from sunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM (sunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.17]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0PJ0cte006697 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 11:00:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.11.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0PJ0XT06999; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 12:00:33 -0700 (MST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCF0050JU4V0O00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 11:00:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from sca-ea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.43.25]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCF00LJVU4VRM40@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 11:00:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay2.sun.com (relay2.sun.com [150.143.103.24] (may be forged)) by sca-ea-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l0PIcUji010242; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 11:00:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from mms04es.sun.com ([150.143.104.74] [150.143.104.74]) by relay2.sun.com with ESMTP; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 19:00:30 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay1.sun.com (relay1.sun.com [150.143.103.14]) by mms04es.sun.com with ESMTP; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 19:00:29 +0000 (Z) Received: from exprod8og53.obsmtp.com ([64.18.3.88] [64.18.3.88]) by relay1.sun.com; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 19:00:28 +0000 (Z) Received: from source ([65.126.230.68]) by exprod8ob53.obsmtp.com ([64.18.7.12]) with SMTP; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 10:57:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([10.30.8.236]) by wsb-srvr-02.bigbandnet.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 25 Jan 2007 13:57:53 -0500 Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 13:57:38 -0500 From: Kyle McDonald Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <20070125184202.GJ12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> To: Nicolas Williams Cc: Joseph Kowalski , Marcel Telka , barts@eng.sun.com, gww@eng.sun.com, Joerg Schilling , PSARC-EXT@sun.com, Darren.Reed@sun.com Message-id: <45B8FDA2.8040000@BigBandNet.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45B7DE7F.705@sun.com> <45B8DD89.8020309@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125170857.GZ12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8E642.3090006@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125173913.GC12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8F1B3.7080302@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125182042.GG12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8F77D.2060707@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125184202.GJ12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 25 Jan 2007 18:57:53.0273 (UTC) FILETIME=[B7A4B690:01C740B2] Status: RO Content-Length: 2724 Nicolas Williams wrote: > On Thu, Jan 25, 2007 at 01:31:25PM -0500, Kyle McDonald wrote: > >> If everything is in /usr/bin, how do I configure my users environments >> to look for these things on the network *before* /usr/bin, and yet allow >> them to get OS level things (mv, rm, ls, etc.) locally even when the >> network server is having issues? >> > > Networked filesystems are an issue no matter what. The issue isn't just > order of appearance in PATH: home directories are normally on NFS > servers too. > > Yes. But if my home directory is available, and I wnat to run ls on it, if /usr/bin is first in my path I don't notice that the server conaining gcc, gmake, or ghostscript or whatever is rebooting at the moment. If /some/network/path/to/gnu/bin is first everything hangs up. I dont' think I'm the only existing Solaris admin who uses the 'kepp it al in one place, update it in only one place' idea to distributing and maintaining these tools. All of Suns customers with large networks of solaris machines are most likely going to be bit in some way by this. > And networked filesystems are an issue because the relevant filesystem > system calls are synchronous and don't provide a simple way for apps to > deal with timeouts. And that's because before networked filesystems > such features weren't needed. Those interfaces have stuck around due to > their ease of use and familiarity, and now we pay this price, that when > file servers go away their clients become unresponsive. > > That's only a problem if you can get the app to start running in the first place. That's a known issue, and something many users are prepared to deal with - at least they're getting the gdb they expect to get when things are all working correctly. >> I guess I'll just have to put the network path first, and then invest in >> HA-NFS. >> > > You had to do the latter anyways. > Well, the expense trade-off wasn't required before. This change (assuming I can't just not install these packages.) will force me to spend the money. > As to the former, avoid conflicts and you're OK; of course, we can > create conflicts any time, but that's part and parcel of the trade-offs > involved in serendipitous discovery. Life's tough. > > I don't understand the suggestion to 'avoid the conflicts'... How can I avoid having the Solaris Perl or GDB or whatever tool not conflict with the one I'm installing for my users? By putting Solaris's conflicts in /usr/gnu you're admitting that using a separate directory in the users' path is a good solution... but you only want it to be available to Solaris's conflicts not the end users? Why the double standard? -Kyle > Nico > From kyle.mcdonald@bigbandnet.com Thu Jan 25 11:06:46 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0PJ6jsZ006919 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 11:06:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0PJ6KGr013966; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 03:06:36 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCF00613UEW0L00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 11:06:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from sca-ea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.43.24]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCF00LMAUEUS040@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 11:06:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay21.sun.com (relay21.sun.com [192.12.251.14] (may be forged)) by sca-ea-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l0PJ6UnK019717; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 11:06:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from mms26es.sun.com ([150.143.232.114] [150.143.232.114]) by relay21.sun.com with ESMTP; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 19:06:29 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay21.sun.com (relay21.sun.com [192.12.251.14]) by mms26es.sun.com with ESMTP; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 19:06:28 +0000 (Z) Received: from exprod8og53.obsmtp.com ([64.18.3.88] [64.18.3.88]) by relay21.sun.com; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 18:44:15 +0000 (Z) Received: from source ([65.126.230.68]) by exprod8ob53.obsmtp.com ([64.18.7.12]) with SMTP; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 10:40:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([10.30.8.236]) by wsb-srvr-02.bigbandnet.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 25 Jan 2007 13:40:11 -0500 Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 13:39:45 -0500 From: Kyle McDonald Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <17848.63067.858692.874579@gargle.gargle.HOWL> To: James Carlson Cc: Nicolas Williams , PSARC-EXT@sun.com, Marcel Telka Message-id: <45B8F971.6000903@BigBandNet.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <17847.37781.741472.969057@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20070124183623.GB17316@eng.sun.com> <17847.51094.526008.806655@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <45B7C8E0.9040808@BigBandNet.COM> <1169673362.1569.62.camel@loghost> <45B7D15E.6070708@BigBandNet.COM> <1169716337.4335.3.camel@tortuga> <45B8E049.6090701@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125171031.GA12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8E545.2090005@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125173303.GB12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8F04F.4040900@BigBandNet.COM> <17848.63067.858692.874579@gargle.gargle.HOWL> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 25 Jan 2007 18:40:11.0510 (UTC) FILETIME=[3EC88960:01C740B0] Status: RO Content-Length: 1023 James Carlson wrote: > Kyle McDonald writes: > >> When this GNU tool chain is available in /usr/bin on Solaris, What is >> going to stop Sun-original development from depending on it? >> > > At least two things will: > > - Depending on a GPLv2 object (as opposed to merely being bundled > with it) generally forces one to adopt a GPLv2 license. That > limits the possible audience. > > I'm aware that linking, and API's, etc. are restricted by licenses. I didn't think that calling external programs with exec, or from scripts qualified as something that would require GPLv2 licenseing. If it's like you say, was it jist that Apache and Perl have non GPLv2 licenses that allowed parts of Soalris to depend on them? > - A project cannot import interfaces that have stability levels > incompatible with the intended usage. Thus, the mostly "Volatile" > interfaces over in /usr/gnu can't be used outside of that > consolidation without explicit ARC approval. > > I see. -Kyle From kyle.mcdonald@bigbandnet.com Thu Jan 25 11:22:51 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0PJMonf007429 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 11:22:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0PJMfC4018734; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 03:22:43 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCF00L0RV5SN300@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 11:22:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com ([192.18.98.34]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCF009IPV5RK390@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 11:22:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay12.sun.com (relay12.sun.com [217.140.40.34] (may be forged)) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l0PJMcBl008359; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 12:22:38 -0700 (MST) Received: from mms11es.sun.com ([160.41.223.14] [160.41.223.14]) by relay12.sun.com with ESMTP; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 19:22:38 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay12.sun.com (relay12.sun.com [217.140.40.34]) by mms11es.sun.com with ESMTP; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 19:22:37 +0000 (Z) Received: from exprod8og51.obsmtp.com ([64.18.3.84] [64.18.3.84]) by relay12.sun.com; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 19:22:37 +0000 (Z) Received: from source ([65.126.230.68]) by exprod8ob51.obsmtp.com ([64.18.7.12]) with SMTP; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 11:22:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([10.30.8.236]) by wsb-srvr-02.bigbandnet.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 25 Jan 2007 14:22:34 -0500 Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 14:22:54 -0500 From: Kyle McDonald Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <45B8E9F3.2000709@Sun.COM> To: Darren J Moffat Cc: Nicolas Williams , Marcel Telka , PSARC-EXT@sun.com Message-id: <45B9038E.2090107@BigBandNet.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1169657347.2419.13.camel@tortuga> <45B78F14.6000003@Sun.COM> <17847.37781.741472.969057@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20070124183623.GB17316@eng.sun.com> <17847.51094.526008.806655@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <45B7C8E0.9040808@BigBandNet.COM> <1169673362.1569.62.camel@loghost> <45B7D15E.6070708@BigBandNet.COM> <1169716337.4335.3.camel@tortuga> <45B8E049.6090701@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125171031.GA12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8E545.2090005@BigBandNet.COM> <45B8E9F3.2000709@Sun.COM> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 25 Jan 2007 19:22:34.0832 (UTC) FILETIME=[2AB8AD00:01C740B6] Status: RO Content-Length: 1256 Darren J Moffat wrote: > Kyle McDonald wrote: >> Nicolas Williams wrote: >>> On Thu, Jan 25, 2007 at 11:52:25AM -0500, Kyle McDonald wrote: >>> >>>> But if both /usr/gnu and /usr/linux are the wrong names, how about >>>> /usr/oss?? >>>> (I'm guessing /sur/fsw - for Free Soft Ware - is too close to >>>> /usr/sfw.) >>>> >>> >>> Or keep /usr/sfw alive but move non-conflicting things into /usr/bin. >>> >>> >> As I wrote in another post. Please don't put anything OSS in /usr/bin. > > Okay, rm -rf /usr/bin > ;) > Since many of the things in /usr/bin are open source given the > existence of OpenSolaris. > > The source code license of a utiltity should not dictate its location > in the file system. > Agreed. > This case is NOT about the GPL it is about the GNU variants of tools > provided by the FSF. > Agreed. I know Solaris is OpenSource now too. So OSS is agian may not the right name. I was trying to think of a name that would imply 'freely available, but not Sun or Solaris original' and that would make it obvious what you might find there. People were saying they thought 'gnu' implied it would only be GNU/FSF software. So I tried to help with somtheing a little more general. I'll stop trying to help now. :) -Kyle From jek3@sun.com Thu Jan 25 11:25:00 2007 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0PJP05Q007508 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 11:25:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0PJOw9C027994; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 11:24:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCF00307V9MF800@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 12:24:58 -0700 (MST) Received: from jurassic.eng.sun.com ([129.146.106.31]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCF00FG6V9JT990@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 12:24:55 -0700 (MST) Received: from [129.150.12.53] (vpn-129-150-12-53.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.12.53]) by jurassic.eng.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l0PJOsBR300428; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 11:24:54 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 09:23:13 -1000 From: Joseph Kowalski Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <1169716337.4335.3.camel@tortuga> To: Marcel Telka Cc: Kyle McDonald , PSARC-EXT@sun.com Message-id: <45B903A1.1020903@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200701240607.l0O67Z4O023171@marduk.eng.sun.com> <20070124061851.GB27682@eng.sun.com> <45B75FA2.1080504@sun.com> <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45b78b19.UuA5rTidJOnO3/65%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169657347.2419.13.camel@tortuga> <45B78F14.6000003@Sun.COM> <17847.37781.741472.969057@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20070124183623.GB17316@eng.sun.com> <17847.51094.526008.806655@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <45B7C8E0.9040808@BigBandNet.COM> <1169673362.1569.62.camel@loghost> <45B7D15E.6070708@BigBandNet.COM> <1169716337.4335.3.camel@tortuga> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060925) Status: RO Content-Length: 1467 Marcel Telka wrote: > There is not something like THE Linux Distribution, so you could not > create something like /usr/linux. If you want to follow this schema you > should create something > like /usr/rh4, /usr/suse9, /usr/debian3, /usr/myown-nongnubased-linux-distro. We probably do not want this :-). > There is a point here I'd like to make more explicit. We need to consider what the goals of the "alternate environments" are. In the case of xpg/SUS, its absolute conformance to a well defined specification. A true xpg conforming application (incl. scripts) should just run. In the case of the various Linux flavors, there is no absolute spec. (The LSB may become one, but its a work in slow progress.) The best we can strive for is a compromise that minimizes porting effort and makes the transition of applications and fingers from multiple Linux based environments to Solaris as easy as possible. Perhaps if/when the LSB is of sufficient quality we could consider a LSB enviroment, but so far as I know there is no current demand for this. A number of "LSB qualified" applications would seem to be necessary before such an environment would be worth the effort. This case is providing easy/better access to a set of well accepted alternate implementation of a core set of UNIX (in the broad sense) utilities. Its not a full emulation of any specific environment. I'm sure the project team will correct me if I have this wrong. - jek3 From jek3@sun.com Thu Jan 25 11:46:52 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0PJkpe1008114 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 11:46:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0PJkfGI025263; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 03:46:47 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCF00N03W9Z3S00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 11:46:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from jurassic.eng.sun.com ([129.146.108.38]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCF0090OW9YJS90@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 11:46:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from [129.150.12.53] (vpn-129-150-12-53.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.12.53]) by jurassic.eng.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l0PJkjIr307333; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 11:46:45 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 09:45:04 -1000 From: Joseph Kowalski Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <45B8DD89.8020309@BigBandNet.COM> To: Kyle McDonald Cc: Marcel Telka , barts@eng.sun.com, gww@eng.sun.com, Joerg Schilling , PSARC-EXT@sun.com, Darren.Reed@sun.com Message-id: <45B908C0.2090301@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200701240607.l0O67Z4O023171@marduk.eng.sun.com> <20070124061851.GB27682@eng.sun.com> <45B75FA2.1080504@sun.com> <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45B7DE7F.705@sun.com> <45B8DD89.8020309@BigBandNet.COM> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060925) Status: RO Content-Length: 2231 Kyle McDonald wrote: > Joseph Kowalski wrote: >> We want to start putting all user utilities with non-conflicting >> names into /usr/bin. > Why? Please NO! > > I know I'm just a lowly long time user of Solaris, but please don't > polute /usr/bin with this stuff. > > I've always hated the linux approach of throwing everything in one > place. What was it another post said 4000+ programins in /usr/bin? > Yuck! I found the includion of GNOME in /usr/bin to be a mistake, and > I think others who orignally thought is was ok now think so too. You can't make all the people happy all of the time. Personally, I'm with you. I think PATH was a nice little invention. However, the push these days is that things should just work out of the box and it seems that PATH is too hard a concept for newbees. Go figure. I'd personally like to see a model where FOSS utilities were considered on their own merit. If they were truly useful, they should go into /usr/bin. If they are simply another way of doing something, they should go elsewhere. (Just how many c-beautifier programs do we need?) The only trouble with this approach is there always seems to be somebody with a vote who thinks some utility is "truly useful". This is all just pragmatism. If the project team wishes to enhance their specification along these lines, I'd be more than willing to listen. >> Death to sfw! We intend to make the stability commitment clear on >> the man pages >> (and not by PATH) - this is why all of these utilities are required >> to have a (perhaps >> tiny) man page - only a synopsis, attributes section and pointer to >> other documentation >> are required. > PATH is the solution to this. It's a good solution. The developers > that we are looking to attract to work on solaris should have no > problem understanding how to configure their path for their preferences. Let's not confuse "Death to sfw" with a better solution to the distribution of utilities. Inclusion in swf is based on interface instability, not FOSS source (although the two are related). This semantic is now widely viewed as inappropriate. Now that the case is derailed, I hope directory semantics are the focus of the discussion. - jek3 From jek3@Sun.COM Thu Jan 25 11:56:35 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0PJuX6v008801 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 11:56:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0PJu7vE027623; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 03:56:28 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCF0060RWQ1E400@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 12:56:25 -0700 (MST) Received: from jurassic.eng.sun.com ([129.146.104.45]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCF00F65WQ1TBA0@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 12:56:25 -0700 (MST) Received: from [129.150.12.53] (vpn-129-150-12-53.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.12.53]) by jurassic.eng.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l0PJuOkP309517; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 11:56:24 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 09:54:39 -1000 From: Joseph Kowalski Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <20070125171031.GA12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> To: Nicolas Williams Cc: Kyle McDonald , Marcel Telka , PSARC-EXT@Sun.COM Message-id: <45B90AFF.4070902@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1169657347.2419.13.camel@tortuga> <45B78F14.6000003@Sun.COM> <17847.37781.741472.969057@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20070124183623.GB17316@eng.sun.com> <17847.51094.526008.806655@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <45B7C8E0.9040808@BigBandNet.COM> <1169673362.1569.62.camel@loghost> <45B7D15E.6070708@BigBandNet.COM> <1169716337.4335.3.camel@tortuga> <45B8E049.6090701@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125171031.GA12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060925) Status: RO Content-Length: 784 Nicolas Williams wrote: > On Thu, Jan 25, 2007 at 11:52:25AM -0500, Kyle McDonald wrote: > >> But if both /usr/gnu and /usr/linux are the wrong names, how about >> /usr/oss?? >> (I'm guessing /sur/fsw - for Free Soft Ware - is too close to /usr/sfw.) >> > > Or keep /usr/sfw alive but move non-conflicting things into /usr/bin. > > I like the idea of a BSD-like /usr/pkg/ (like /opt, but in /usr). > > Nico > Which we would call /usr/opt. We really need something like this since zones hit the scene (with /opt being part of root). (Actually, I think the zones project should have taken on the huge job of making /opt a "magic mount point" like /usr is but that didn't happen and isn't likely to happen.) However, this diverges from the discussion at hand. - jek3 From John.Plocher@Sun.COM Thu Jan 25 11:58:54 2007 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0PJwrDO008835 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 11:58:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0PJwqsC005701; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 11:58:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCF0061ZWU5HM00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 12:58:53 -0700 (MST) Received: from nwk-ea-fw-1.sun.com ([10.4.134.6]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCF00FICWU0TBA0@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 12:58:52 -0700 (MST) Received: from d1-sfbay-09.sun.com ([192.18.39.119]) by nwk-ea-fw-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l0PJwlBJ017215; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 11:58:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-sfbay-09.sun.com by d1-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JCF00L01WRL0N00@d1-sfbay-09.sun.com> (original mail from John.Plocher@Sun.COM); Thu, 25 Jan 2007 11:58:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from [129.146.58.87] by d1-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JCF006G6WTZUVNA@d1-sfbay-09.sun.com>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 11:58:47 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 11:58:44 -0800 From: John Plocher Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <45B8FDA2.8040000@BigBandNet.COM> Sender: John.Plocher@Sun.COM To: Kyle McDonald Cc: Nicolas Williams , barts@eng.sun.com, gww@eng.sun.com, Joerg Schilling , Joseph Kowalski , PSARC-EXT@Sun.COM, Marcel Telka , Darren.Reed@Sun.COM Message-id: <45B90BF4.5020806@Sun.Com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45B7DE7F.705@sun.com> <45B8DD89.8020309@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125170857.GZ12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8E642.3090006@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125173913.GC12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8F1B3.7080302@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125182042.GG12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8F77D.2060707@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125184202.GJ12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8FDA2.8040000@BigBandNet.COM> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Macintosh/20061207) Status: RO Content-Length: 830 Kyle McDonald wrote: > I don't understand the suggestion to 'avoid the conflicts'... How can I > avoid having the Solaris Perl or GDB or whatever tool not conflict with > the one I'm installing for my users? It sounds like you really want to be able to choose to NOT install some set of Sun provided OSS packages, because you wish to provide them for yourself, and you are willing/able to cause your user(s) to modify their PATH to include the install location for your new programs. The problem you have identified is the creeping dependencies that get stuck on the Sun provided packages - you can't "not install" Sun's Perl and install your own because something else in Solaris depends on the "Sun Perl". If you *were* able to do the above (as an admin), would you still have the same issues with this proposal? -John From jek3@sun.com Thu Jan 25 12:01:23 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0PK1L6H008860 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 12:01:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0PK0fRM028827; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 04:01:09 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCF00D17WXUDD00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 12:01:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from jurassic.eng.sun.com ([129.146.17.55]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCF00LYJWXTRN80@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 12:01:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from [129.150.12.53] (vpn-129-150-12-53.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.12.53]) by jurassic.eng.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l0PK14pt311729; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 12:01:04 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 09:59:23 -1000 From: Joseph Kowalski Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <45B8E545.2090005@BigBandNet.COM> To: Kyle McDonald Cc: Nicolas Williams , Marcel Telka , PSARC-EXT@sun.com Message-id: <45B90C1B.5010108@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1169657347.2419.13.camel@tortuga> <45B78F14.6000003@Sun.COM> <17847.37781.741472.969057@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20070124183623.GB17316@eng.sun.com> <17847.51094.526008.806655@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <45B7C8E0.9040808@BigBandNet.COM> <1169673362.1569.62.camel@loghost> <45B7D15E.6070708@BigBandNet.COM> <1169716337.4335.3.camel@tortuga> <45B8E049.6090701@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125171031.GA12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8E545.2090005@BigBandNet.COM> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060925) Status: RO Content-Length: 405 Kyle McDonald wrote: > As I wrote in another post. Please don't put anything OSS in /usr/bin. You're a couple years too late. As I **keep** pointing out, relegation to /usr/sfw was not based on it coming from a FOSS source. It was based on our (Sun) not choosing to support the utility as Stable/Committed. There are already many utilities from a FOSS sources that we commit to in /usr/bin. - jek3 From nw141292@binky.Central.Sun.COM Thu Jan 25 12:06:57 2007 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0PK6vsa008924 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 12:06:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0PK6mmn007315; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 12:06:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCF00701X7HFH00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 13:06:53 -0700 (MST) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM ([129.153.128.104]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCF00FB3X7GT9D0@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 13:06:52 -0700 (MST) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0PK6RD3027722; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 14:06:27 -0600 (CST) Received: (from nw141292@localhost) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/Submit) id l0PK6Rbq027721; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 14:06:27 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 14:06:26 -0600 From: Nicolas Williams Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <45B90AFF.4070902@sun.com> To: Joseph Kowalski Cc: Kyle McDonald , Marcel Telka , PSARC-EXT@sun.com Message-id: <20070125200626.GM12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <17847.37781.741472.969057@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20070124183623.GB17316@eng.sun.com> <17847.51094.526008.806655@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <45B7C8E0.9040808@BigBandNet.COM> <1169673362.1569.62.camel@loghost> <45B7D15E.6070708@BigBandNet.COM> <1169716337.4335.3.camel@tortuga> <45B8E049.6090701@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125171031.GA12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B90AFF.4070902@sun.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.7i Status: RO Content-Length: 735 On Thu, Jan 25, 2007 at 09:54:39AM -1000, Joseph Kowalski wrote: > Nicolas Williams wrote: > >I like the idea of a BSD-like /usr/pkg/ (like /opt, but in /usr). > > > Which we would call /usr/opt. We really need something like this since > zones hit the scene (with /opt > being part of root). > > (Actually, I think the zones project should have taken on the huge job > of making /opt a "magic mount > point" like /usr is but that didn't happen and isn't likely to happen.) > > However, this diverges from the discussion at hand. Last post on this, I promise. It's not just zones, but diskless. I'm inclined to think that /opt was a mistake and it should have been /usr/opt all along, though I'm likely missing some history. From jek3@Sun.COM Thu Jan 25 12:10:10 2007 Received: from sunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM (sunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.17]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0PKAAti008954 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 12:10:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.11.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0PKA6T24942; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 13:10:06 -0700 (MST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCF0011LXCTNK00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 12:10:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from jurassic.eng.sun.com ([129.146.68.36]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCF009RWXCTK4B0@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 12:10:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from [129.150.12.53] (vpn-129-150-12-53.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.12.53]) by jurassic.eng.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l0PK9rYA313877; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 12:09:53 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 10:08:11 -1000 From: Joseph Kowalski Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <17848.58989.858589.51932@gargle.gargle.HOWL> To: James Carlson Cc: Kyle McDonald , Marcel Telka , barts@eng.sun.com, gww@eng.sun.com, Joerg Schilling , PSARC-EXT@Sun.COM, Darren.Reed@Sun.COM Message-id: <45B90E2B.3000801@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200701240607.l0O67Z4O023171@marduk.eng.sun.com> <20070124061851.GB27682@eng.sun.com> <45B75FA2.1080504@sun.com> <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45B7DE7F.705@sun.com> <45B8DD89.8020309@BigBandNet.COM> <17848.58989.858589.51932@gargle.gargle.HOWL> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060925) Status: RO Content-Length: 723 James Carlson wrote: > Adding /usr/sfw/bin to the path doesn't fix the problem. It's not > needed on other platforms, so you end up in a confusing and incomplete > place. > Sounding like a broken record, record, record, ... we forget that part of the semantic and the whole reason for being is that /usr/sfw/bin wouldn't be on your default path. I think this is in one of 2001/313 or 2000/488. > That's not good for Sun or for Solaris. Thus, we rescinded that > earlier mistake. See "Enabling serendipitous discovery" (PSARC > 2005/185) for details, and either file a new case or an appeal if you > wish to overturn that one. > Is that case available for public viewing? If not, it should be made so. - jek3 From nw141292@binky.Central.Sun.COM Thu Jan 25 12:13:05 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0PKD3j9009031 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 12:13:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0PKCljZ002006; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 04:12:58 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCF0010HXHHTI00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 12:12:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM ([129.153.128.104]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCF009HRXHFK3D0@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 12:12:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0PKCQsk027759; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 14:12:26 -0600 (CST) Received: (from nw141292@localhost) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/Submit) id l0PKCQ7h027758; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 14:12:26 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 14:12:26 -0600 From: Nicolas Williams Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <45B903A1.1020903@sun.com> To: Joseph Kowalski Cc: Marcel Telka , Kyle McDonald , PSARC-EXT@sun.com Message-id: <20070125201225.GN12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1169657347.2419.13.camel@tortuga> <45B78F14.6000003@Sun.COM> <17847.37781.741472.969057@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20070124183623.GB17316@eng.sun.com> <17847.51094.526008.806655@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <45B7C8E0.9040808@BigBandNet.COM> <1169673362.1569.62.camel@loghost> <45B7D15E.6070708@BigBandNet.COM> <1169716337.4335.3.camel@tortuga> <45B903A1.1020903@sun.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.7i Status: RO Content-Length: 965 On Thu, Jan 25, 2007 at 09:23:13AM -1000, Joseph Kowalski wrote: > In the case of the various Linux flavors, there is no absolute spec. > (The LSB may become one, but its a work > in slow progress.) The best we can strive for is a compromise that > minimizes porting effort and makes the > transition of applications and fingers from multiple Linux based > environments to Solaris as easy as possible. > Perhaps if/when the LSB is of sufficient quality we could consider a LSB > enviroment, but so far as I know > there is no current demand for this. A number of "LSB qualified" > applications would seem to be necessary > before such an environment would be worth the effort. I think this is an excellent argument for saying that it's too early to agree to a good name for what is proposed to be /usr/gnu. Therefore it might be better to go with /usr/opt/gnu-coreutils and other /usr/opt/gnu-*, but still add non-conflicting paths to /usr/bin. Nico -- From kyle.mcdonald@bigbandnet.com Thu Jan 25 12:16:15 2007 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0PKGFc7009072 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 12:16:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0PKGA66008861; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 12:16:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCF0080BXMYJW00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 13:16:10 -0700 (MST) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com ([192.18.98.34]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCF00FHHXMXTNB0@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 13:16:10 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay23.sun.com (relay23.sun.com [192.12.251.54] (may be forged)) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l0PKG9h1021340; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 13:16:09 -0700 (MST) Received: from mms25es.sun.com ([150.143.232.94] [150.143.232.94]) by relay23.sun.com with ESMTP; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 20:16:09 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay21.sun.com (relay21.sun.com [192.12.251.14]) by mms25es.sun.com with ESMTP; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 20:16:07 +0000 (Z) Received: from exprod8og58.obsmtp.com ([64.18.3.98] [64.18.3.98]) by relay21.sun.com; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 20:11:46 +0000 (Z) Received: from source ([65.126.230.68]) by exprod8ob58.obsmtp.com ([64.18.7.12]) with SMTP; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 12:08:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([10.30.8.236]) by wsb-srvr-02.bigbandnet.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 25 Jan 2007 15:08:42 -0500 Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 15:08:33 -0500 From: Kyle McDonald Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <45B90BF4.5020806@Sun.Com> To: John Plocher Cc: Nicolas Williams , barts@eng.sun.com, gww@eng.sun.com, Joerg Schilling , Joseph Kowalski , PSARC-EXT@sun.com, Marcel Telka , Darren.Reed@sun.com Message-id: <45B90E41.7030204@BigBandNet.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45B7DE7F.705@sun.com> <45B8DD89.8020309@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125170857.GZ12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8E642.3090006@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125173913.GC12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8F1B3.7080302@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125182042.GG12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8F77D.2060707@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125184202.GJ12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8FDA2.8040000@BigBandNet.COM> <45B90BF4.5020806@Sun.Com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 25 Jan 2007 20:08:42.0803 (UTC) FILETIME=[9C8F8830:01C740BC] Status: RO Content-Length: 1751 John Plocher wrote: > Kyle McDonald wrote: >> I don't understand the suggestion to 'avoid the conflicts'... How can >> I avoid having the Solaris Perl or GDB or whatever tool not conflict >> with the one I'm installing for my users? > > It sounds like you really want to be able to choose to NOT install some > set of Sun provided OSS packages, because you wish to provide them for > yourself, and you are willing/able to cause your user(s) to modify their > PATH to include the install location for your new programs. > Yes. Actualy whether they're installed or not. I just need to be able to promote mine over the default. > The problem you have identified is the creeping dependencies > that get stuck on the Sun provided packages - you can't "not install" > Sun's Perl and install your own because something else in Solaris > depends on the "Sun Perl". Yes. > > If you *were* able to do the above (as an admin), would you still have > the same issues with this proposal? > No, If that were true, I could live with this proposal. I would at least have the ability to do what I want. In my situation, since I provide pretty much all the things that I would choose not to install, then no, choosing to not install them is a perfectly fine solution for me. I can still offer my users the ability to configure which of the flavors, or even versions, they prefer through their PATH... I'm in control. I can image though that there will be people setting up systems who might not be in a position to replace all the things they might choose to not install. They're left with an all or nothing solution. They dont' have the option to install the tools, and then set things up differently for different users. Thanks! -Kyle > -John From jek3@sun.com Thu Jan 25 12:18:01 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0PKHxu6009116 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 12:18:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0PKHroE003902; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 04:17:53 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCF00201XPR9V00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 12:17:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from jurassic.eng.sun.com ([129.146.224.130]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCF009ODXPRJND0@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 12:17:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from [129.150.12.53] (vpn-129-150-12-53.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.12.53]) by jurassic.eng.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l0PKHgXR315948; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 12:17:42 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 10:16:01 -1000 From: Joseph Kowalski Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <45B8E900.3080005@BigBandNet.COM> To: Kyle McDonald Cc: James Carlson , Marcel Telka , barts@eng.sun.com, gww@eng.sun.com, Joerg Schilling , PSARC-EXT@sun.com, Darren.Reed@sun.com Message-id: <45B91001.2010001@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200701240607.l0O67Z4O023171@marduk.eng.sun.com> <20070124061851.GB27682@eng.sun.com> <45B75FA2.1080504@sun.com> <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45B7DE7F.705@sun.com> <45B8DD89.8020309@BigBandNet.COM> <17848.58989.858589.51932@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <45B8E900.3080005@BigBandNet.COM> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060925) Status: RO Content-Length: 367 Kyle McDonald wrote: > Why isn't updating the default PATH to include these other directories > satisfactory? > Why would a user need to know exactly where the tool lives if it's > found and runs when they type 'make'? Part of the reason is that $PATH is not always on the lhs of assignments to PATH. Many folk just set it absolutely. Its not the same. - jek3 From nw141292@binky.Central.Sun.COM Thu Jan 25 12:24:18 2007 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0PKOIoK009281 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 12:24:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0PKOCbK010824; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 12:24:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCF0090BY0CEU00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 13:24:12 -0700 (MST) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM ([129.153.128.104]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCF00F8XY0BTNC0@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 13:24:12 -0700 (MST) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0PKNjoT027832; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 14:23:45 -0600 (CST) Received: (from nw141292@localhost) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/Submit) id l0PKNfFw027831; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 14:23:41 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 14:23:41 -0600 From: Nicolas Williams Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <45B91001.2010001@sun.com> To: Joseph Kowalski Cc: Kyle McDonald , barts@eng.sun.com, gww@eng.sun.com, Joerg Schilling , PSARC-EXT@sun.com, Marcel Telka , Darren.Reed@sun.com Message-id: <20070125202341.GP12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200701240607.l0O67Z4O023171@marduk.eng.sun.com> <20070124061851.GB27682@eng.sun.com> <45B75FA2.1080504@sun.com> <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45B7DE7F.705@sun.com> <45B8DD89.8020309@BigBandNet.COM> <17848.58989.858589.51932@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <45B8E900.3080005@BigBandNet.COM> <45B91001.2010001@sun.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.7i Status: RO Content-Length: 595 On Thu, Jan 25, 2007 at 10:16:01AM -1000, Joseph Kowalski wrote: > Kyle McDonald wrote: > >Why isn't updating the default PATH to include these other directories > >satisfactory? > >Why would a user need to know exactly where the tool lives if it's > >found and runs when they type 'make'? > Part of the reason is that $PATH is not always on the lhs of assignments > to PATH. Many folk just set it > absolutely. Its not the same. I lied. One more off-topic post: a psetenv(1) proc util might be a nice way to deal with PATH management in a shell-neutral, dot-file avoiding way. Nico -- From jek3@sun.com Thu Jan 25 12:28:58 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0PKSuhO009569 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 12:28:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0PKSmKO006663; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 04:28:51 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCF00A09Y810700@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 13:28:49 -0700 (MST) Received: from jurassic.eng.sun.com ([129.146.106.105]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCF00FW4Y81T9E0@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 13:28:49 -0700 (MST) Received: from [129.150.12.53] (vpn-129-150-12-53.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.12.53]) by jurassic.eng.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l0PKSkOo319115; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 12:28:47 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 10:27:05 -1000 From: Joseph Kowalski Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <17848.61510.732116.319497@gargle.gargle.HOWL> To: James Carlson Cc: Kyle McDonald , Pete Bentley , barts@eng.sun.com, gww@eng.sun.com, Joerg Schilling , PSARC-EXT@sun.com, Marcel Telka , Darren.Reed@sun.com Message-id: <45B91299.8090403@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200701240607.l0O67Z4O023171@marduk.eng.sun.com> <20070124061851.GB27682@eng.sun.com> <45B75FA2.1080504@sun.com> <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45B7DE7F.705@sun.com> <45B8DD89.8020309@BigBandNet.COM> <45B8E5F2.8030402@sorted.org> <45B8EAA6.4000508@BigBandNet.COM> <17848.61510.732116.319497@gargle.gargle.HOWL> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060925) Status: RO Content-Length: 387 James Carlson wrote: > I sure would, unless you're just talking about "non-conflicting" > things. Moving the rest entirely misses the point. 'ucb' is an > environment; it's like /usr/xpg4. > Just a historical note. It's called /usr/ucb* because that's a name AT&T would accept into SVr4. The real name should be /usr/SunOS4.x. That's the true environment it emulates. - jek3 From jek3@Sun.COM Thu Jan 25 12:35:58 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0PKZvAm009656 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 12:35:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0PKZpWO012267; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 20:35:53 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCF00307YJSLT00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 12:35:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from jurassic.eng.sun.com ([129.146.104.31]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCF009XYYJSJZB0@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 12:35:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from [129.150.12.53] (vpn-129-150-12-53.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.12.53]) by jurassic.eng.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l0PKZg5l320998; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 12:35:46 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 10:34:02 -1000 From: Joseph Kowalski Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <45B8F21C.3030001@BigBandNet.COM> To: Kyle McDonald Cc: James Carlson , Pete Bentley , barts@eng.sun.com, gww@eng.sun.com, Joerg Schilling , PSARC-EXT@Sun.COM, Marcel Telka , Darren.Reed@Sun.COM Message-id: <45B9143A.2090804@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200701240607.l0O67Z4O023171@marduk.eng.sun.com> <20070124061851.GB27682@eng.sun.com> <45B75FA2.1080504@sun.com> <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45B7DE7F.705@sun.com> <45B8DD89.8020309@BigBandNet.COM> <45B8E5F2.8030402@sorted.org> <45B8EAA6.4000508@BigBandNet.COM> <17848.61510.732116.319497@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <45B8F21C.3030001@BigBandNet.COM> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060925) Status: RO Content-Length: 632 Kyle McDonald wrote: > You're right. I appologixe. s/ucb/ccs/ So, as long as we are talking history, we'd like to obsolete /usr/ccs. We keep talking about it and have taken steps in that direction, but we have yet to do it. Anybody interested? The history of /usr/ccs is that the OS folk and the compiler folk at AT&T couldn't get along (unlike Sun where we have *always* been best friends). In response to this the OS folk (at AT&T) created /usr/css as a playground for the AT&T compiler people. We inherited it as part of SVr4. Its origin is strictly a creation of AT&T, er Cingular, er AT&T internal politics. - jek3 From jek3@Sun.COM Thu Jan 25 13:01:07 2007 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0PL17Ig010228 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 13:01:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0PL149B017256; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 13:01:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCF00E09ZPS1P00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 14:01:04 -0700 (MST) Received: from jurassic.eng.sun.com ([129.146.108.38]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCF00F8EZPQTFD0@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 14:01:03 -0700 (MST) Received: from [129.150.12.53] (vpn-129-150-12-53.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.12.53]) by jurassic.eng.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l0PL11GL326306; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 13:01:01 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 10:59:17 -1000 From: Joseph Kowalski Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <20070125201225.GN12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> To: Nicolas Williams Cc: Marcel Telka , Kyle McDonald , PSARC-EXT@Sun.COM Message-id: <45B91A25.2040207@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1169657347.2419.13.camel@tortuga> <45B78F14.6000003@Sun.COM> <17847.37781.741472.969057@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20070124183623.GB17316@eng.sun.com> <17847.51094.526008.806655@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <45B7C8E0.9040808@BigBandNet.COM> <1169673362.1569.62.camel@loghost> <45B7D15E.6070708@BigBandNet.COM> <1169716337.4335.3.camel@tortuga> <45B903A1.1020903@sun.com> <20070125201225.GN12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060925) Status: RO Content-Length: 1744 Nicolas Williams wrote: > On Thu, Jan 25, 2007 at 09:23:13AM -1000, Joseph Kowalski wrote: > >> In the case of the various Linux flavors, there is no absolute spec. >> (The LSB may become one, but its a work >> in slow progress.) The best we can strive for is a compromise that >> minimizes porting effort and makes the >> transition of applications and fingers from multiple Linux based >> environments to Solaris as easy as possible. >> Perhaps if/when the LSB is of sufficient quality we could consider a LSB >> enviroment, but so far as I know >> there is no current demand for this. A number of "LSB qualified" >> applications would seem to be necessary >> before such an environment would be worth the effort. >> > > I think this is an excellent argument for saying that it's too early to > agree to a good name for what is proposed to be /usr/gnu. > > Therefore it might be better to go with /usr/opt/gnu-coreutils and other > /usr/opt/gnu-*, but still add non-conflicting paths to /usr/bin. > > Nico > I don't think so, but its all crystal-ball'ish at this time. I don't think the LSB will ever reach this state. Nor, do I think the various Linux based distros will line-up to it enough if it did. (Its just my opinion, but its a very spotty document being pushed by a fairly small camp.) Bottom line is I don't think planning for the possible future LSB environment is a truly good idea. Besides, I think we need to remember something I said many e-mails ago, that the name conflict issues strongly tend to be limited to alternate implementations of the core utility set. Because of the preference by Linux distros to lump everything in /usr/bin, there don't tend to be conflicts in other areas. - jek3 From John.Plocher@sun.com Thu Jan 25 13:07:06 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0PL75kU010333 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 13:07:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0PL6t5O017338; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 05:07:02 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCF0050BZZOXP00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 13:07:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-ea-fw-1.sun.com ([10.4.134.5]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCF009KPZZNK4E0@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 13:06:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from d1-sfbay-09.sun.com ([192.18.39.119]) by nwk-ea-fw-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l0PL6xnH002063; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 13:06:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-sfbay-09.sun.com by d1-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JCF00501ZXTOV00@d1-sfbay-09.sun.com> (original mail from John.Plocher@Sun.COM); Thu, 25 Jan 2007 13:06:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from [129.146.58.87] by d1-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JCF006UKZZNUVYA@d1-sfbay-09.sun.com>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 13:06:59 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 13:06:56 -0800 From: John Plocher Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <45B90E2B.3000801@sun.com> Sender: John.Plocher@sun.com To: Joseph Kowalski Cc: James Carlson , barts@eng.sun.com, gww@eng.sun.com, Joerg Schilling , PSARC-EXT@sun.com, Marcel Telka , Darren.Reed@sun.com Message-id: <45B91BF0.3070404@Sun.Com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200701240607.l0O67Z4O023171@marduk.eng.sun.com> <20070124061851.GB27682@eng.sun.com> <45B75FA2.1080504@sun.com> <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45B7DE7F.705@sun.com> <45B8DD89.8020309@BigBandNet.COM> <17848.58989.858589.51932@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <45B90E2B.3000801@sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Macintosh/20061207) Status: RO Content-Length: 312 The spec and opinion are at http://www.opensolaris.org/os/community/arc/caselog/2005/185/ The mail log would need "vetting" before it could be published. If you would be able to do so, let me know. -John Joseph Kowalski wrote: > Is that case available for public viewing? If not, it should be made so. From jek3@Sun.COM Thu Jan 25 13:07:51 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0PL7oxi010350 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 13:07:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0PL7NgO017431; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 05:07:41 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCG00E0F00SSC00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 14:07:40 -0700 (MST) Received: from jurassic.eng.sun.com ([129.146.226.130]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCG00FZB00RTBE0@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 14:07:39 -0700 (MST) Received: from [129.150.12.53] (vpn-129-150-12-53.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.12.53]) by jurassic.eng.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l0PL7Wcq328572; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 13:07:32 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 11:05:51 -1000 From: Joseph Kowalski Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <45B91299.8090403@sun.com> To: Joseph Kowalski Cc: James Carlson , Kyle McDonald , Pete Bentley , barts@eng.sun.com, gww@eng.sun.com, Joerg Schilling , PSARC-EXT@Sun.COM, Marcel Telka , Darren.Reed@Sun.COM Message-id: <45B91BAF.4010603@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200701240607.l0O67Z4O023171@marduk.eng.sun.com> <20070124061851.GB27682@eng.sun.com> <45B75FA2.1080504@sun.com> <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45B7DE7F.705@sun.com> <45B8DD89.8020309@BigBandNet.COM> <45B8E5F2.8030402@sorted.org> <45B8EAA6.4000508@BigBandNet.COM> <17848.61510.732116.319497@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <45B91299.8090403@sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060925) Status: RO Content-Length: 853 Joseph Kowalski wrote: > James Carlson wrote: >> I sure would, unless you're just talking about "non-conflicting" >> things. Moving the rest entirely misses the point. 'ucb' is an >> environment; it's like /usr/xpg4. >> > Just a historical note. It's called /usr/ucb* because that's a name > AT&T would > accept into SVr4. The real name should be /usr/SunOS4.x. That's the > true environment > it emulates. > > - jek3 Replying to my own mail. A bad sign... I said "emulates". Opps! It doesn't emulate 4.x as xpg* provides a true implementation of a xpg/SUS environment. It was populated with the subset of SunOS4.x utilities that we thought would cause the most grief in transitioning to the SVr4 versions. (This is the source compatibility package. Obviously, the binary compatibility package was intended to be complete.) - jek3 From schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de Thu Jan 25 13:11:51 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0PLBnN0010375 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 13:11:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0PLBedj018641; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 05:11:46 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCG0010D07KIA00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 13:11:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwkea-mail-4.sun.com ([192.18.42.26]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCG00L0P07JS4D0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 13:11:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay1.sun.com (relay1.sun.com [150.143.103.14] (may be forged)) by nwkea-mail-4.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l0PI41Ww014724; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 13:11:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from mms0bes.sun.com ([150.143.104.214] [150.143.104.214]) by relay1.sun.com with ESMTP; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 21:11:42 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay1.sun.com (relay1.sun.com [150.143.103.14]) by mms0bes.sun.com with ESMTP; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 21:11:42 +0000 (Z) Received: from mailhub.fokus.fraunhofer.de ([193.174.154.14] [193.174.154.14]) by relay1.sun.com with ESMTP; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 21:11:42 +0000 (Z) Received: from burner.fokus.fraunhofer.de (burner [10.147.65.166]) by mailhub.fokus.fraunhofer.de (8.11.6p2/8.11.6) with ESMTP id l0PLBf908030; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 22:11:41 +0100 (MET) Received: (from jes@localhost) by burner.fokus.fraunhofer.de (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/Submit) id l0PL9iph011799; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 22:09:44 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 22:09:43 +0100 From: Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (Joerg Schilling) Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <45B8E049.6090701@BigBandNet.COM> Sender: schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de To: Marcel.Telka@sun.com, Kyle.McDonald@bigbandnet.com Cc: PSARC-EXT@sun.com Message-id: <45b91c97.W5q7W46jJC8nxdfW%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200701240607.l0O67Z4O023171@marduk.eng.sun.com> <20070124061851.GB27682@eng.sun.com> <45B75FA2.1080504@sun.com> <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45b78b19.UuA5rTidJOnO3/65%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169657347.2419.13.camel@tortuga> <45B78F14.6000003@Sun.COM> <17847.37781.741472.969057@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20070124183623.GB17316@eng.sun.com> <17847.51094.526008.806655@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <45B7C8E0.9040808@BigBandNet.COM> <1169673362.1569.62.camel@loghost> <45B7D15E.6070708@BigBandNet.COM> <1169716337.4335.3.camel@tortuga> <45B8E049.6090701@BigBandNet.COM> User-Agent: nail 11.22 3/20/05 Status: RO Content-Length: 1039 Kyle McDonald wrote: > There may not be a single distribution, but due to the LSB, I bet all > the tools we are discussing here are located in the same place on all > (or the vast majority) linux distributions. > > But if both /usr/gnu and /usr/linux are the wrong names, how about > /usr/oss?? > (I'm guessing /sur/fsw - for Free Soft Ware - is too close to /usr/sfw.) Which program should win /usr/oss/bin/make as name? BSD's make? My smake? GNU make? let oldest program (see my order) or what? Which program should win /usr/oss/bin/tar? star's "tar" CLI emulation? GNU "tar"? There are many others but make & tar seem to be the most popular conflicting names. Let me also name cpio, pax, ..... Jörg -- EMail:joerg@schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin js@cs.tu-berlin.de (uni) schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily From John.Plocher@sun.com Thu Jan 25 13:20:29 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0PLKSv4010648 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 13:20:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0PLKMsv024400; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 21:20:26 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCG00G0J0M1HS00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 14:20:25 -0700 (MST) Received: from nwk-ea-fw-1.sun.com ([10.4.134.5]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCG00F1R0M0TOF0@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 14:20:24 -0700 (MST) Received: from d1-sfbay-10.sun.com ([192.18.39.120]) by nwk-ea-fw-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l0PLKOR1003590; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 13:20:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-sfbay-10.sun.com by d1-sfbay-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JCG00K010H60P00@d1-sfbay-10.sun.com> (original mail from John.Plocher@Sun.COM); Thu, 25 Jan 2007 13:20:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from [129.146.58.87] by d1-sfbay-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JCG00D1B0LZNT6W@d1-sfbay-10.sun.com>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 13:20:23 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 13:20:21 -0800 From: John Plocher Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <45B90E41.7030204@BigBandNet.COM> Sender: John.Plocher@sun.com To: Kyle McDonald Cc: Nicolas Williams , barts@eng.sun.com, gww@eng.sun.com, Joerg Schilling , Joseph Kowalski , PSARC-EXT@sun.com, Marcel Telka , Darren.Reed@sun.com Message-id: <45B91F15.2070804@Sun.Com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45B7DE7F.705@sun.com> <45B8DD89.8020309@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125170857.GZ12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8E642.3090006@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125173913.GC12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8F1B3.7080302@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125182042.GG12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8F77D.2060707@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125184202.GJ12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8FDA2.8040000@BigBandNet.COM> <45B90BF4.5020806@Sun.Com> <45B90E41.7030204@BigBandNet.COM> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Macintosh/20061207) Status: RO Content-Length: 1403 Kyle McDonald wrote: > John Plocher wrote: >> If you *were* able to do the above (as an admin), would you still have >> the same issues with this proposal? >> > No, If that were true, I could live with this proposal. I would at > least have the ability to do what I want. So, let me toss out a proposal: OSS stuff (purposely undefined here :-) shall install into somewhere other than /usr/bin. The various directories discussed here (/usr/sfw, /usr/gnu, /opt/wherever) are all potential locations; the exact location for a particular instance of "OSS Stuff" is intentionally not specified here. ALL package dependencies are required to be on the above packages; all PATH dependencies are required to be on the above install locations. There shall also exist a "symlink convenience package" for each "OSS Stuff" that (following the "no conflict" rules mentioned elsewhere in this thread) makes symlinks in /usr/bin. NO components may depend on the existence of these packages or require their installation - they are intended for use by human users only, and are expected to be installed (or not) at the sole discretion of the customer. This proposal says nothing about whether the Solaris Install process should default to installing or not installing these convenience symlink packages. -John From jek3@sun.com Thu Jan 25 13:23:03 2007 Received: from sunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM (sunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.17]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0PLN2YJ010707 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 13:23:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.11.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0PLN0T24240; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 14:23:00 -0700 (MST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCG0070J0QC3P00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 13:23:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from jurassic.eng.sun.com ([129.146.68.36]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCG009LY0QBJTG0@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 13:22:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from [129.150.12.53] (vpn-129-150-12-53.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.12.53]) by jurassic.eng.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l0PLMwWd331787; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 13:22:59 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 11:21:17 -1000 From: Joseph Kowalski Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <45b91c97.W5q7W46jJC8nxdfW%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> To: Joerg Schilling Cc: Marcel.Telka@sun.com, Kyle.McDonald@bigbandnet.com, PSARC-EXT@sun.com Message-id: <45B91F4D.9020107@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200701240607.l0O67Z4O023171@marduk.eng.sun.com> <20070124061851.GB27682@eng.sun.com> <45B75FA2.1080504@sun.com> <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45b78b19.UuA5rTidJOnO3/65%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169657347.2419.13.camel@tortuga> <45B78F14.6000003@Sun.COM> <17847.37781.741472.969057@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20070124183623.GB17316@eng.sun.com> <17847.51094.526008.806655@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <45B7C8E0.9040808@BigBandNet.COM> <1169673362.1569.62.camel@loghost> <45B7D15E.6070708@BigBandNet.COM> <1169716337.4335.3.camel@tortuga> <45B8E049.6090701@BigBandNet.COM> <45b91c97.W5q7W46jJC8nxdfW%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060925) Status: RO Content-Length: 1682 Joerg Schilling wrote: > Kyle McDonald wrote: > > >> There may not be a single distribution, but due to the LSB, I bet all >> the tools we are discussing here are located in the same place on all >> (or the vast majority) linux distributions. >> >> But if both /usr/gnu and /usr/linux are the wrong names, how about >> /usr/oss?? >> (I'm guessing /sur/fsw - for Free Soft Ware - is too close to /usr/sfw.) >> > > Which program should win /usr/oss/bin/make as name? > > BSD's make? > My smake? > GNU make? > > let oldest program (see my order) or what? > > Which program should win /usr/oss/bin/tar? > > star's "tar" CLI emulation? > GNU "tar"? > > There are many others but make & tar seem to be the most popular conflicting names. > > Let me also name cpio, pax, ..... > > Jörg > The existing logic is that the owner of the *specification*, not the owner of the implementation should be the name. In the case of the FOSS world, these are usually the same. The scary part is that we could end up with /usr/schilling by this logic. :-) There actually is a little substance to this. If this should be widely used, do we really want to pollute /usr with a lot of alternate subdirectories? These really don't fit the semantic of "opt", so maybe we should consider /usr/alt-env/{gnu,schilling,...} or something similar. I'm just considering this option and am not sure its a good idea, so I'm just throwing it out there. Maybe this is overkill, because most FOSS contibutors aren't working on alternate implementations of core utilities - there are only so many GNUs and Schillings in the world (no offense Jeorg!). - jek3 From nw141292@binky.Central.Sun.COM Thu Jan 25 13:27:45 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0PLRilb010802 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 13:27:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0PLRVox022648; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 05:27:36 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCG00H010XXAP00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 14:27:33 -0700 (MST) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM ([129.153.128.104]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCG00FUP0XWTKE0@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 14:27:32 -0700 (MST) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0PLR6Jj028283; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 15:27:06 -0600 (CST) Received: (from nw141292@localhost) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/Submit) id l0PLR5fp028282; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 15:27:05 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 15:27:05 -0600 From: Nicolas Williams Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <45B91F15.2070804@Sun.Com> To: John Plocher Cc: Kyle McDonald , barts@eng.sun.com, gww@eng.sun.com, Joerg Schilling , Joseph Kowalski , PSARC-EXT@sun.com, Marcel Telka , Darren.Reed@sun.com Message-id: <20070125212704.GT12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <45B8E642.3090006@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125173913.GC12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8F1B3.7080302@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125182042.GG12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8F77D.2060707@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125184202.GJ12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8FDA2.8040000@BigBandNet.COM> <45B90BF4.5020806@Sun.Com> <45B90E41.7030204@BigBandNet.COM> <45B91F15.2070804@Sun.Com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.7i Status: RO Content-Length: 356 On Thu, Jan 25, 2007 at 01:20:21PM -0800, John Plocher wrote: > There shall also exist a "symlink convenience package" > for each "OSS Stuff" that (following the "no conflict" rules > mentioned elsewhere in this thread) makes symlinks in > /usr/bin. [...] Shouldn't we avoid symlinks in /usr/bin for performance? Or is that a non-issue? From schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de Thu Jan 25 13:28:42 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0PLSgn8010835 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 13:28:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0PLSXio026869; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 21:28:39 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCG00H0H0ZQFJ00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 14:28:38 -0700 (MST) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.98.31]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCG00F9B0ZPTKF0@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 14:28:37 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay13.sun.com (relay13.sun.com [217.140.40.54] (may be forged)) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l0PLSbCh021989; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 14:28:37 -0700 (MST) Received: from mms11es.sun.com ([160.41.223.14] [160.41.223.14]) by relay13.sun.com with ESMTP; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 21:28:36 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay11.sun.com (relay11.sun.com [217.140.40.14]) by mms11es.sun.com with ESMTP; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 21:28:36 +0000 (Z) Received: from mailhub.fokus.fraunhofer.de ([193.174.154.14] [193.174.154.14]) by relay11.sun.com with ESMTP; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 21:28:36 +0000 (Z) Received: from burner.fokus.fraunhofer.de (burner [10.147.65.166]) by mailhub.fokus.fraunhofer.de (8.11.6p2/8.11.6) with ESMTP id l0PLSZ909415; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 22:28:35 +0100 (MET) Received: (from jes@localhost) by burner.fokus.fraunhofer.de (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/Submit) id l0PLQdjI011821; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 22:26:39 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 22:26:39 +0100 From: Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (Joerg Schilling) Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <45B8E9F3.2000709@Sun.COM> Sender: schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de To: Kyle.McDonald@bigbandnet.com, Darren.Moffat@sun.com Cc: PSARC-EXT@sun.com, Nicolas.Williams@sun.com, Marcel.Telka@sun.com Message-id: <45b9208f.gCfngbM0zirgMW3e%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1169657347.2419.13.camel@tortuga> <45B78F14.6000003@Sun.COM> <17847.37781.741472.969057@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20070124183623.GB17316@eng.sun.com> <17847.51094.526008.806655@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <45B7C8E0.9040808@BigBandNet.COM> <1169673362.1569.62.camel@loghost> <45B7D15E.6070708@BigBandNet.COM> <1169716337.4335.3.camel@tortuga> <45B8E049.6090701@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125171031.GA12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8E545.2090005@BigBandNet.COM> <45B8E9F3.2000709@Sun.COM> User-Agent: nail 11.22 3/20/05 Status: RO Content-Length: 758 Darren J Moffat wrote: > This case is NOT about the GPL it is about the GNU variants of tools > provided by the FSF. Sometimes license issues cannot be overlooked. The Reed solomon coder from the "GNU vcdimager" claims to be GPLd but it is based on source code that has never been published under the GPL nor with the permission to be published under GPL. Other software that is based on this code (like libcdio) is also affected. Jörg -- EMail:joerg@schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin js@cs.tu-berlin.de (uni) schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily From jek3@sun.com Thu Jan 25 13:31:18 2007 Received: from sunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM (sunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.17]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0PLVH0H011038 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 13:31:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.11.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0PLVDT01011; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 14:31:13 -0700 (MST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCG00H03140PZ00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 14:31:12 -0700 (MST) Received: from jurassic.eng.sun.com ([129.146.68.130]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCG00H52140HA00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 14:31:12 -0700 (MST) Received: from [129.150.12.53] (vpn-129-150-12-53.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.12.53]) by jurassic.eng.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l0PLV9wj334042; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 13:31:10 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 11:29:28 -1000 From: Joseph Kowalski Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <45B91F15.2070804@Sun.Com> To: John Plocher Cc: Kyle McDonald , Nicolas Williams , barts@eng.sun.com, gww@eng.sun.com, Joerg Schilling , PSARC-EXT@sun.com, Marcel Telka , Darren.Reed@sun.com Message-id: <45B92138.6040307@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45B7DE7F.705@sun.com> <45B8DD89.8020309@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125170857.GZ12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8E642.3090006@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125173913.GC12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8F1B3.7080302@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125182042.GG12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8F77D.2060707@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125184202.GJ12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8FDA2.8040000@BigBandNet.COM> <45B90BF4.5020806@Sun.Com> <45B90E41.7030204@BigBandNet.COM> <45B91F15.2070804@Sun.Com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060925) Status: RO Content-Length: 2032 I'm assuming the "default link" packages would be installed by default - our marketing would demand that. This implies to me, that all this proposal would buy you is the ability to go out of your way to construct a system where the various components could be selected by path without a fall through to /usr/bin. In a distributed computing world, you couldn't depend upon this. How many people would use this? Well, Kyle seems to be one. There are undoubtedly others, but how many? I don't think the gain is worth the effort. Your mileage may vary. - jek3 John Plocher wrote: > Kyle McDonald wrote: >> John Plocher wrote: >>> If you *were* able to do the above (as an admin), would you still have >>> the same issues with this proposal? >>> >> No, If that were true, I could live with this proposal. I would at >> least have the ability to do what I want. > > > So, let me toss out a proposal: > > OSS stuff (purposely undefined here :-) shall install into > somewhere other than /usr/bin. The various directories > discussed here (/usr/sfw, /usr/gnu, /opt/wherever) are all > potential locations; the exact location for a particular > instance of "OSS Stuff" is intentionally not specified here. > > ALL package dependencies are required to be on the above > packages; all PATH dependencies are required to be on the > above install locations. > > There shall also exist a "symlink convenience package" > for each "OSS Stuff" that (following the "no conflict" rules > mentioned elsewhere in this thread) makes symlinks in > /usr/bin. NO components may depend on the existence of > these packages or require their installation - they are > intended for use by human users only, and are expected > to be installed (or not) at the sole discretion of the > customer. > > This proposal says nothing about whether the Solaris Install > process should default to installing or not installing these > convenience symlink packages. > > -John From bart.smaalders@Sun.COM Thu Jan 25 13:33:11 2007 Received: from sunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM (sunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.17]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0PLXBBF011074 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 13:33:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.11.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0PLXAT02164; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 14:33:10 -0700 (MST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCG00I0W1790M00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 14:33:09 -0700 (MST) Received: from engmail3mpk.sfbay.Sun.COM ([129.146.11.26]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCG00H90178HA00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 14:33:08 -0700 (MST) Received: from zion.eng.sun.com (zion.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.17.75]) by engmail3mpk.sfbay.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0PLX48I017389; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 13:33:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from [129.146.228.109] (cyber [129.146.228.109]) by zion.eng.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7) with ESMTP id l0PLX3dj028306; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 13:33:04 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 13:32:45 -0800 From: Bart Smaalders Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <45B90E41.7030204@BigBandNet.COM> To: Kyle McDonald Cc: John Plocher , Nicolas Williams , barts@eng.sun.com, gww@eng.sun.com, Joerg Schilling , Joseph Kowalski , PSARC-EXT@Sun.COM, Marcel Telka , Darren.Reed@Sun.COM Message-id: <45B921FD.2020607@Sun.COM> Organization: Sun Microsystems MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45B7DE7F.705@sun.com> <45B8DD89.8020309@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125170857.GZ12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8E642.3090006@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125173913.GC12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8F1B3.7080302@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125182042.GG12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8F77D.2060707@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125184202.GJ12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8FDA2.8040000@BigBandNet.COM> <45B90BF4.5020806@Sun.Com> <45B90E41.7030204@BigBandNet.COM> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.8 (X11/20061204) Status: RO Content-Length: 2492 Kyle McDonald wrote: > John Plocher wrote: >> Kyle McDonald wrote: >>> I don't understand the suggestion to 'avoid the conflicts'... How can >>> I avoid having the Solaris Perl or GDB or whatever tool not conflict >>> with the one I'm installing for my users? >> >> It sounds like you really want to be able to choose to NOT install some >> set of Sun provided OSS packages, because you wish to provide them for >> yourself, and you are willing/able to cause your user(s) to modify their >> PATH to include the install location for your new programs. >> > Yes. Actualy whether they're installed or not. I just need to be able to > promote mine over the default. >> The problem you have identified is the creeping dependencies >> that get stuck on the Sun provided packages - you can't "not install" >> Sun's Perl and install your own because something else in Solaris >> depends on the "Sun Perl". > Yes. >> >> If you *were* able to do the above (as an admin), would you still have >> the same issues with this proposal? >> > No, If that were true, I could live with this proposal. I would at > least have the ability to do what I want. > > In my situation, since I provide pretty much all the things that I would > choose not to install, then no, choosing to not install them is a > perfectly fine solution for me. I can still offer my users the ability > to configure which of the flavors, or even versions, they prefer > through their PATH... I'm in control. > > I can image though that there will be people setting up systems who > might not be in a position to replace all the things they might choose > to not install. They're left with an all or nothing solution. They dont' > have the option to install the tools, and then set things up differently > for different users. > > Thanks! > > -Kyle > >> -John > > > So perhaps I don't get something.... why don't you set your user's path to /usr/local/bin:/usr/bin: ? You can place your favorite versions of these commands in /usr/local/bin and be done w/ it, and the system will still find the versions of things it needs in /usr/bin. For users who don't wish to customize things, they just work. Telling people the default environment can be found in /usr/bin is more compelling than saying it is in /usr/bin:/usr/ccs/bin:/usr/sfw/bin:/usr/dt/bin:/usr/openwin/bin:/usr/X11/bin:/usr/sadm/admin/bin - Bart -- Bart Smaalders Solaris Kernel Performance barts@cyber.eng.sun.com http://blogs.sun.com/barts From schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de Thu Jan 25 13:36:24 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0PLaMf8011122 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 13:36:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0PLa5ko024832; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 05:36:15 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCG005011CEJO00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 13:36:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.98.43]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCG00L8Q1CDS0D0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 13:36:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay2.sun.com (relay2.sun.com [150.143.103.24] (may be forged)) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l0PIcYcD028088; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 14:36:13 -0700 (MST) Received: from mms06es.sun.com ([150.143.104.114] [150.143.104.114]) by relay2.sun.com with ESMTP; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 21:36:13 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay1.sun.com (relay1.sun.com [150.143.103.14]) by mms06es.sun.com with ESMTP; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 21:36:13 +0000 (Z) Received: from mailhub.fokus.fraunhofer.de ([193.174.154.14] [193.174.154.14]) by relay1.sun.com with ESMTP; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 21:36:12 +0000 (Z) Received: from burner.fokus.fraunhofer.de (burner [10.147.65.166]) by mailhub.fokus.fraunhofer.de (8.11.6p2/8.11.6) with ESMTP id l0PLaA910270; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 22:36:11 +0100 (MET) Received: (from jes@localhost) by burner.fokus.fraunhofer.de (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/Submit) id l0PLYDao011855; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 22:34:13 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 22:34:13 +0100 From: Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (Joerg Schilling) Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <20070125182741.GH12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> Sender: schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de To: pete@sorted.org, Nicolas.Williams@sun.com Cc: PSARC-EXT@sun.com, Marcel.Telka@sun.com, Kyle.McDonald@bigbandnet.com, jek3@sun.com, gww@eng.sun.com, Darren.Reed@sun.com, barts@eng.sun.com Message-id: <45b92255.SyqzRrKkOs/PRkIC%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200701240607.l0O67Z4O023171@marduk.eng.sun.com> <20070124061851.GB27682@eng.sun.com> <45B75FA2.1080504@sun.com> <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45B7DE7F.705@sun.com> <45B8DD89.8020309@BigBandNet.COM> <45B8E5F2.8030402@sorted.org> <20070125182741.GH12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> User-Agent: nail 11.22 3/20/05 Status: RO Content-Length: 715 Nicolas Williams wrote: > That's an argument for closing off /usr/bin. Everything should go into > a /usr/pkg/*/bin or /opt/*/bin or whatever, and every user is > responsible for maintaining a very long PATH or a lynk farm. IIRC, software not under BSDL has a hard way going into /usr/bin/ It would make sense to have only those programs in /usr/bin/ that are fully integrated into ON Jörg -- EMail:joerg@schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin js@cs.tu-berlin.de (uni) schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily From alan.coopersmith@sun.com Thu Jan 25 13:39:24 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0PLdNqs011286 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 13:39:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0PLdKOL029884; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 21:39:21 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCG005031HHV700@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 13:39:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from sfbaymail1sca.SFBay.Sun.COM ([129.145.154.35]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCG00L6H1HHRVE0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 13:39:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from [129.146.108.211] (almas.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.108.211]) by sfbaymail1sca.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0PLdCmw000763; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 13:39:13 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 13:39:12 -0800 From: Alan Coopersmith Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <45B91F15.2070804@Sun.Com> To: John Plocher Cc: Kyle McDonald , Nicolas Williams , barts@eng.sun.com, gww@eng.sun.com, Joerg Schilling , Joseph Kowalski , PSARC-EXT@sun.com, Marcel Telka , Darren.Reed@sun.com Message-id: <45B92380.1070901@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45B7DE7F.705@sun.com> <45B8DD89.8020309@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125170857.GZ12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8E642.3090006@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125173913.GC12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8F1B3.7080302@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125182042.GG12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8F77D.2060707@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125184202.GJ12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8FDA2.8040000@BigBandNet.COM> <45B90BF4.5020806@Sun.Com> <45B90E41.7030204@BigBandNet.COM> <45B91F15.2070804@Sun.Com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.8 (X11/20061113) Status: RO Content-Length: 2013 John Plocher wrote: > So, let me toss out a proposal: > > OSS stuff (purposely undefined here :-) shall install into > somewhere other than /usr/bin. The various directories > discussed here (/usr/sfw, /usr/gnu, /opt/wherever) are all > potential locations; the exact location for a particular > instance of "OSS Stuff" is intentionally not specified here. > > ALL package dependencies are required to be on the above > packages; all PATH dependencies are required to be on the > above install locations. > > There shall also exist a "symlink convenience package" > for each "OSS Stuff" that (following the "no conflict" rules > mentioned elsewhere in this thread) makes symlinks in > /usr/bin. NO components may depend on the existence of > these packages or require their installation - they are > intended for use by human users only, and are expected > to be installed (or not) at the sole discretion of the > customer. That is getting very close to what we've always done with X in Solaris, first in /usr/openwin, now in /usr/X11, except we've only provided the symlink packages for libraries, not commands. One of the big reasons we keep X in a separate directory still, (and one of the biggest complaints I've heard about GNOME in /usr/{bin,lib}) is the ease of replacing our implementation/version with another, if the admin so chooses, whether that be XFree86, a later X.Org version than we've moved to, a third party commercial solution like XiG's or something we haven't imagined. I know a number of Solaris 10 users who wish all the gnome tools were in /usr/gnome so they could just install /usr/gnome-2.16 to replace our now-ancient GNOME 2.6 in S10. At some point, we'll similarly stop dropping new X.Org releases into S10, and there will be people who will want to install /usr/X11R7.something-newer instead. -- -Alan Coopersmith- alan.coopersmith@sun.com Sun Microsystems, Inc. - X Window System Engineering From carlsonj@phorcys.east.sun.com Thu Jan 25 13:44:37 2007 Received: from sunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM (sunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.17]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0PLiadO011350 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 13:44:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.11.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0PLiVT09988; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 14:44:31 -0700 (MST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCG0060P1Q6QG00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 13:44:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com ([129.148.174.143]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCG00L041Q5RNF0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 13:44:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l0PLiSXI002552; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 16:44:28 -0500 (EST) Received: (from carlsonj@localhost) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/Submit) id l0PLiSn2002549; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 16:44:28 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 16:44:27 -0500 From: James Carlson Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <45b92255.SyqzRrKkOs/PRkIC%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> To: Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (Joerg Schilling) Cc: pete@sorted.org, Nicolas.Williams@sun.com, PSARC-EXT@sun.com, Marcel.Telka@sun.com, Kyle.McDonald@bigbandnet.com, jek3@sun.com, gww@eng.sun.com, Darren.Reed@sun.com, barts@eng.sun.com Message-id: <17849.9403.952498.38547@gargle.gargle.HOWL> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: VM 7.01 under Emacs 21.3.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200701240607.l0O67Z4O023171@marduk.eng.sun.com> <20070124061851.GB27682@eng.sun.com> <45B75FA2.1080504@sun.com> <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45B7DE7F.705@sun.com> <45B8DD89.8020309@BigBandNet.COM> <45B8E5F2.8030402@sorted.org> <20070125182741.GH12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45b92255.SyqzRrKkOs/PRkIC%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> Status: RO Content-Length: 1164 Joerg Schilling writes: > Nicolas Williams wrote: > > > That's an argument for closing off /usr/bin. Everything should go into > > a /usr/pkg/*/bin or /opt/*/bin or whatever, and every user is > > responsible for maintaining a very long PATH or a lynk farm. > > IIRC, software not under BSDL has a hard way going into /usr/bin/ I don't think I understand why that should be. We already have non-BSD things in /usr/bin. We even have GPL'd things in ON. > It would make sense to have only those programs in /usr/bin/ that are fully > integrated into ON I disagree strongly with that assertion. /usr/bin isn't the exclusive home of ON-delivered objects. Nor is the ON consolidation the right place to stuff everything that wants (or needs) to be in /usr/bin. Nor, even, is PSARC the keeper of ON. These things are independent; please don't confuse them. There's enough of that confusion around already. -- James Carlson, Solaris Networking Sun Microsystems / 1 Network Drive 71.232W Vox +1 781 442 2084 MS UBUR02-212 / Burlington MA 01803-2757 42.496N Fax +1 781 442 1677 From jek3@sun.com Thu Jan 25 13:44:53 2007 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0PLiqe1011366 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 13:44:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0PLil7T024183; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 13:44:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCG00J071QNGH00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 14:44:47 -0700 (MST) Received: from jurassic.eng.sun.com ([129.146.106.105]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCG00HEL1QMH010@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 14:44:47 -0700 (MST) Received: from [129.150.12.53] (vpn-129-150-12-53.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.12.53]) by jurassic.eng.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l0PLiff7337821; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 13:44:41 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 11:43:00 -1000 From: Joseph Kowalski Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <45b92255.SyqzRrKkOs/PRkIC%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> To: Joerg Schilling Cc: pete@sorted.org, Nicolas.Williams@sun.com, PSARC-EXT@sun.com, Marcel.Telka@sun.com, Kyle.McDonald@bigbandnet.com, gww@eng.sun.com, Darren.Reed@sun.com, barts@eng.sun.com Message-id: <45B92464.9020402@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200701240607.l0O67Z4O023171@marduk.eng.sun.com> <20070124061851.GB27682@eng.sun.com> <45B75FA2.1080504@sun.com> <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45B7DE7F.705@sun.com> <45B8DD89.8020309@BigBandNet.COM> <45B8E5F2.8030402@sorted.org> <20070125182741.GH12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45b92255.SyqzRrKkOs/PRkIC%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060925) Status: RO Content-Length: 856 Joerg Schilling wrote: > Nicolas Williams wrote: > > >> That's an argument for closing off /usr/bin. Everything should go into >> a /usr/pkg/*/bin or /opt/*/bin or whatever, and every user is >> responsible for maintaining a very long PATH or a lynk farm. >> > > IIRC, software not under BSDL has a hard way going into /usr/bin/ > It would make sense to have only those programs in /usr/bin/ that are fully > integrated into ON > > Jörg > Correct me if I misunderstand you, but my mother (to use a previous analogy) doesn't care about the license. Even the developer of application on Solaris doesn't care about this licensing. Only we, the developers of OpenSolaris, care about this (or others who want to steal\h\h\h\h\hreuse our code). Who are we designing the system for? Am I missing something? - jek3 From schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de Thu Jan 25 13:53:26 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0PLrPDL011868 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 13:53:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0PLrD1G029117; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 05:53:14 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCG00K0124PLF00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 14:53:13 -0700 (MST) Received: from nwkea-mail-4.sun.com ([192.18.42.26]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCG00HCN24NH310@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 14:53:12 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay24.sun.com (ip192-12-251-74.block6.us.syntegra.com [192.12.251.74]) by nwkea-mail-4.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l0PLrBeP014146; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 13:53:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from mms28es.sun.com ([150.143.232.154] [150.143.232.154]) by relay24.sun.com with ESMTP; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 21:53:11 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay21.sun.com (relay21.sun.com [192.12.251.14]) by mms28es.sun.com with ESMTP; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 21:53:10 +0000 (Z) Received: from mailhub.fokus.fraunhofer.de ([193.174.154.14] [193.174.154.14]) by relay21.sun.com with ESMTP; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 21:53:10 +0000 (Z) Received: from burner.fokus.fraunhofer.de (burner [10.147.65.166]) by mailhub.fokus.fraunhofer.de (8.11.6p2/8.11.6) with ESMTP id l0PLr8912157; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 22:53:08 +0100 (MET) Received: (from jes@localhost) by burner.fokus.fraunhofer.de (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/Submit) id l0PLpBo0011903; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 22:51:11 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 22:51:11 +0100 From: Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (Joerg Schilling) Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <17849.9403.952498.38547@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Sender: schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de To: james.d.carlson@sun.com Cc: PSARC-EXT@sun.com, pete@sorted.org, Nicolas.Williams@sun.com, Marcel.Telka@sun.com, Kyle.McDonald@bigbandnet.com, jek3@sun.com, gww@eng.sun.com, Darren.Reed@sun.com, barts@eng.sun.com Message-id: <45b9264f.RSHgM9nsokcMAhkh%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200701240607.l0O67Z4O023171@marduk.eng.sun.com> <20070124061851.GB27682@eng.sun.com> <45B75FA2.1080504@sun.com> <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45B7DE7F.705@sun.com> <45B8DD89.8020309@BigBandNet.COM> <45B8E5F2.8030402@sorted.org> <20070125182741.GH12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45b92255.SyqzRrKkOs/PRkIC%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <17849.9403.952498.38547@gargle.gargle.HOWL> User-Agent: nail 11.22 3/20/05 Status: RO Content-Length: 1214 James Carlson wrote: > Joerg Schilling writes: > > Nicolas Williams wrote: > > > > > That's an argument for closing off /usr/bin. Everything should go into > > > a /usr/pkg/*/bin or /opt/*/bin or whatever, and every user is > > > responsible for maintaining a very long PATH or a lynk farm. > > > > IIRC, software not under BSDL has a hard way going into /usr/bin/ > > I don't think I understand why that should be. We already have > non-BSD things in /usr/bin. Sorry, It seems that I forgot to mention that I was talking about /usr/bin on BSD. > I disagree strongly with that assertion. /usr/bin isn't the exclusive > home of ON-delivered objects. Nor is the ON consolidation the right > place to stuff everything that wants (or needs) to be in /usr/bin. > Nor, even, is PSARC the keeper of ON. I believe that e.g. GNOME does not belong into /usr/bin Jörg -- EMail:joerg@schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin js@cs.tu-berlin.de (uni) schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily From John.Plocher@sun.com Thu Jan 25 14:06:42 2007 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0PM6gZR013427 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 14:06:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0PM6g92027753; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 14:06:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCG00A032R6V600@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 14:06:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-ea-fw-1.sun.com ([10.4.134.5]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCG00ANI2R58A10@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 14:06:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from d1-sfbay-09.sun.com ([192.18.39.119]) by nwk-ea-fw-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l0PM6fsb009355; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 14:06:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-sfbay-09.sun.com by d1-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JCG00D012P88P00@d1-sfbay-09.sun.com> (original mail from John.Plocher@Sun.COM); Thu, 25 Jan 2007 14:06:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from [129.146.58.87] by d1-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JCG006V92R4UVCB@d1-sfbay-09.sun.com>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 14:06:40 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 14:06:38 -0800 From: John Plocher Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <45B92138.6040307@sun.com> Sender: John.Plocher@sun.com To: Joseph Kowalski Cc: Kyle McDonald , Nicolas Williams , barts@eng.sun.com, gww@eng.sun.com, Joerg Schilling , PSARC-EXT@sun.com, Marcel Telka , Darren.Reed@sun.com Message-id: <45B929EE.6090101@Sun.Com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45B7DE7F.705@sun.com> <45B8DD89.8020309@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125170857.GZ12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8E642.3090006@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125173913.GC12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8F1B3.7080302@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125182042.GG12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8F77D.2060707@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125184202.GJ12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8FDA2.8040000@BigBandNet.COM> <45B90BF4.5020806@Sun.Com> <45B90E41.7030204@BigBandNet.COM> <45B91F15.2070804@Sun.Com> <45B92138.6040307@sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Macintosh/20061207) Status: RO Content-Length: 2112 Joseph Kowalski wrote: > This implies to me, that all this proposal would buy you is the ability > to go out of your way to > construct a system where the various components could be selected by > path without a fall through > to /usr/bin. Putting the executables all in /usr/bin has failure modes as Kyle pointed out. It seems worthwhile to try to address them if we can. As Alan points out as well, the problem with the "put it all into /usr/bin" is that I can no longer eeasily replace/upgrade the various OSS bits on my system to the latest ones released by their owners because Sun (or OpenSolaris) has chosen to bundle an old version in such a way as to make it impossible for me to replace it. > In a distributed computing world, you couldn't depend upon > this. How many people > would use this? The distributed world at Sun seems to be able to depend on /usr/dist (an NFS filesystem that has 20Gb of shared executables) while at the same time allowing individual servers/workstations the ability to override the bits they provide. Part of the difficulty we are having with OSS stuff is that we are not acknowledging that [Open]Solaris is just a small part of the bigger picture; that we are _not_ the owners of these bits, and the bits evolve at faster rates than we do. Every time we taks a bit of OSS out of its global context and shove it into a dusty corner of [Open]Solaris, we are making it harder for developers to "just use" [Open]Solaris. Another goal here is what Roy said: > As a developer, I really don't care where these tools are provided > as long as it is possible to find them on the path and, once found, > the tools are exactly as distributed by the tool author. Sun's Marketing doesn't really care about the technical issues around /usr/bin and /usr/gnu; they are more interested in the default user experience. The OSS bits need to be delivered by default and work by default. In their mind, a new user on Solaris *should* be able to log in, download a project off of Sourceforge, type ./configure; make; make install, and have it all just work. -John From jek3@sun.com Thu Jan 25 14:14:22 2007 Received: from sunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM (sunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.17]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0PMELVU014024 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 14:14:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.11.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0PMEHT10875; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 15:14:17 -0700 (MST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCG0001P33R1D00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 15:14:15 -0700 (MST) Received: from jurassic.eng.sun.com ([129.146.224.31]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCG00HGK33QGX10@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 15:14:14 -0700 (MST) Received: from [129.150.12.53] (vpn-129-150-12-53.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.12.53]) by jurassic.eng.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l0PME8sR346388; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 14:14:08 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 12:12:24 -1000 From: Joseph Kowalski Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <45b9264f.RSHgM9nsokcMAhkh%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> To: Joerg Schilling Cc: james.d.carlson@sun.com, PSARC-EXT@sun.com, pete@sorted.org, Nicolas.Williams@sun.com, Marcel.Telka@sun.com, Kyle.McDonald@bigbandnet.com, gww@eng.sun.com, Darren.Reed@sun.com, barts@eng.sun.com Message-id: <45B92B48.7050104@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200701240607.l0O67Z4O023171@marduk.eng.sun.com> <20070124061851.GB27682@eng.sun.com> <45B75FA2.1080504@sun.com> <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45B7DE7F.705@sun.com> <45B8DD89.8020309@BigBandNet.COM> <45B8E5F2.8030402@sorted.org> <20070125182741.GH12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45b92255.SyqzRrKkOs/PRkIC%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <17849.9403.952498.38547@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <45b9264f.RSHgM9nsokcMAhkh%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060925) Status: RO Content-Length: 1224 Joerg Schilling wrote: > I believe that e.g. GNOME does not belong into /usr/bin > And many here at Sun would agree with this (although I was a mild proponent of it). Times change. At the time this decision was made, GNOME was set as *the* window system. Accept no substitutes. Yes, it was known that there existed folk at that time who wanted an alternate windowing system, but it wasn't believed to be a significant number. There appears to be two oversights in this: 1) We didn't foresee OpenSolaris in its current form and the generation of alternate distributions of Solaris. 2) We didn't expect that S10 would become so stale. (Sometimes I wish S10 had 2.4 - that's so bad, we'd have to update it - 2.6 is just good enough.) There is nothing to really be said about #1. The future is unpredictable. I personally think we are being too compatibility concerned by not updating the S10 gnome in an S10 Update. The reality might be that this is more of a resource issue, rather than a compatibility issue. That all said, what problems (other than asthetics) does having gnome in /usr/bin cause? A properly constructed path should let you interpose another. - jek3 From kyle.mcdonald@bigbandnet.com Thu Jan 25 14:27:03 2007 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0PMR3ZP014486 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 14:27:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0PMQwmF002396; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 14:26:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCG00B093OYXG00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 14:26:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from sca-ea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.43.25]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCG007353OY6860@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 14:26:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay3.sun.com (relay3.sun.com [150.143.103.54] (may be forged)) by sca-ea-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l0PMG2Ml003485; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 14:26:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from mms0ees.sun.com ([150.143.104.244] [150.143.104.244]) by relay3.sun.com with ESMTP; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 22:26:53 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay4.sun.com (relay4.sun.com [150.143.103.74]) by mms0ees.sun.com with ESMTP; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 22:26:53 +0000 (Z) Received: from exprod8og54.obsmtp.com ([64.18.3.90] [64.18.3.90]) by relay4.sun.com; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 22:26:53 +0000 (Z) Received: from source ([65.126.230.68]) by exprod8ob54.obsmtp.com ([64.18.7.12]) with SMTP; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 14:25:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([10.30.8.236]) by wsb-srvr-02.bigbandnet.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 25 Jan 2007 17:25:07 -0500 Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 17:25:04 -0500 From: Kyle McDonald Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <45B921FD.2020607@Sun.COM> To: Bart Smaalders Cc: John Plocher , Nicolas Williams , barts@eng.sun.com, gww@eng.sun.com, Joerg Schilling , Joseph Kowalski , PSARC-EXT@sun.com, Marcel Telka , Darren.Reed@sun.com Message-id: <45B92E40.8030403@BigBandNet.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45B7DE7F.705@sun.com> <45B8DD89.8020309@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125170857.GZ12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8E642.3090006@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125173913.GC12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8F1B3.7080302@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125182042.GG12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8F77D.2060707@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125184202.GJ12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8FDA2.8040000@BigBandNet.COM> <45B90BF4.5020806@Sun.Com> <45B90E41.7030204@BigBandNet.COM> <45B921FD.2020607@Sun.COM> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 25 Jan 2007 22:25:07.0434 (UTC) FILETIME=[AAFB1CA0:01C740CF] Status: RO Content-Length: 3399 Bart Smaalders wrote: > Kyle McDonald wrote: >> John Plocher wrote: >>> Kyle McDonald wrote: >>>> I don't understand the suggestion to 'avoid the conflicts'... How >>>> can I avoid having the Solaris Perl or GDB or whatever tool not >>>> conflict with the one I'm installing for my users? >>> >>> It sounds like you really want to be able to choose to NOT install some >>> set of Sun provided OSS packages, because you wish to provide them for >>> yourself, and you are willing/able to cause your user(s) to modify >>> their >>> PATH to include the install location for your new programs. >>> >> Yes. Actualy whether they're installed or not. I just need to be able >> to promote mine over the default. >>> The problem you have identified is the creeping dependencies >>> that get stuck on the Sun provided packages - you can't "not install" >>> Sun's Perl and install your own because something else in Solaris >>> depends on the "Sun Perl". >> Yes. >>> >>> If you *were* able to do the above (as an admin), would you still have >>> the same issues with this proposal? >>> >> No, If that were true, I could live with this proposal. I would at >> least have the ability to do what I want. >> >> In my situation, since I provide pretty much all the things that I >> would choose not to install, then no, choosing to not install them is >> a perfectly fine solution for me. I can still offer my users the >> ability to configure which of the flavors, or even versions, they >> prefer through their PATH... I'm in control. >> >> I can image though that there will be people setting up systems who >> might not be in a position to replace all the things they might >> choose to not install. They're left with an all or nothing solution. >> They dont' have the option to install the tools, and then set things >> up differently for different users. >> >> Thanks! >> >> -Kyle >> >>> -John >> >> >> > > So perhaps I don't get something.... why don't you set > your user's path to /usr/local/bin:/usr/bin: ? > Because for me /usr/local/bin(for the sake of conversation) for me is a soft link to an nfs mountpoint. [I like to only install and maintain this stuff on one file server, not locally on every machine.] I don't think putting an NFS mountpoint before /usr/bin, /usr/ucb, etc. in a users $PATH is a good idea. > You can place your favorite versions of these commands in > /usr/local/bin and be done w/ it, and the system will > still find the versions of things it needs in /usr/bin. > True. If I don't mind maintaining everything locally on every machine. > For users who don't wish to customize things, they just > work. > > Telling people the default environment can be found > in /usr/bin is more compelling than saying it is in > > /usr/bin:/usr/ccs/bin:/usr/sfw/bin:/usr/dt/bin:/usr/openwin/bin:/usr/X11/bin:/usr/sadm/admin/bin > > I'm sure that could be shrunk down quite a bit. /usr/ccs/bin, /usr/sadm/admin/bin, could probably be shrunk merged to /usr/bin. (I'm not sure what's in the later though.) /usr/dt/bin and /usr/openwin/bin, I imagine will eventually be nearly empty with most everything being found in /usr/X11/bin. That leaves: /usr/bin, and /usr/X11/bin. Plus /usr/{sfw|gnu|lsb|linux|opt|whatever is decided on} if desired, and optionally a /usr/{ucb|xpg4|etc.} prefixed on the beginning to select an alternate environment. -Kyle > - Bart > > From kyle.mcdonald@bigbandnet.com Thu Jan 25 14:30:47 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0PMUktY014627 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 14:30:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0PMUTVi012846; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 22:30:40 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCG00F0T3V19N00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 14:30:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com ([192.18.98.36]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCG00AUO3UZ8AC0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 14:30:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay2.sun.com (relay2.sun.com [150.143.103.24] (may be forged)) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l0PMKuaN026932; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 15:30:35 -0700 (MST) Received: from mms0aes.sun.com ([150.143.104.194] [150.143.104.194]) by relay2.sun.com with ESMTP; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 22:30:35 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay2.sun.com (relay2.sun.com [150.143.103.24]) by mms0aes.sun.com with ESMTP; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 22:30:34 +0000 (Z) Received: from exprod8og54.obsmtp.com ([64.18.3.90] [64.18.3.90]) by relay2.sun.com; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 22:30:34 +0000 (Z) Received: from source ([65.126.230.68]) by exprod8ob54.obsmtp.com ([64.18.7.12]) with SMTP; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 14:29:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([10.30.8.236]) by wsb-srvr-02.bigbandnet.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 25 Jan 2007 17:29:03 -0500 Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 17:29:01 -0500 From: Kyle McDonald Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <45B92B48.7050104@sun.com> To: Joseph Kowalski Cc: Joerg Schilling , james.d.carlson@sun.com, PSARC-EXT@sun.com, pete@sorted.org, Nicolas.Williams@sun.com, Marcel.Telka@sun.com, gww@eng.sun.com, Darren.Reed@sun.com, barts@eng.sun.com Message-id: <45B92F2D.7020903@BigBandNet.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200701240607.l0O67Z4O023171@marduk.eng.sun.com> <20070124061851.GB27682@eng.sun.com> <45B75FA2.1080504@sun.com> <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45B7DE7F.705@sun.com> <45B8DD89.8020309@BigBandNet.COM> <45B8E5F2.8030402@sorted.org> <20070125182741.GH12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45b92255.SyqzRrKkOs/PRkIC%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <17849.9403.952498.38547@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <45b9264f.RSHgM9nsokcMAhkh%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <45B92B48.7050104@sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 25 Jan 2007 22:29:03.0138 (UTC) FILETIME=[3778B020:01C740D0] Status: RO Content-Length: 311 Joseph Kowalski wrote: > > That all said, what problems (other than asthetics) does having gnome in > /usr/bin cause? A properly constructed path should let you interpose > another. > Really only if you are wililng to install it local to the machine. Isn't the network the computer? ;) -Kyle > - jek3 > From jek3@sun.com Thu Jan 25 14:34:43 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0PMYgtg014835 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 14:34:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0PMYYb4014349; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 22:34:36 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCG0020541OF700@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 15:34:36 -0700 (MST) Received: from jurassic.eng.sun.com ([129.146.68.130]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCG00HX141MH340@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 15:34:35 -0700 (MST) Received: from [129.150.12.53] (vpn-129-150-12-53.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.12.53]) by jurassic.eng.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l0PMY1XR353147; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 14:34:02 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 12:32:21 -1000 From: Joseph Kowalski Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <45B929EE.6090101@Sun.Com> To: John Plocher Cc: Kyle McDonald , Nicolas Williams , barts@eng.sun.com, gww@eng.sun.com, Joerg Schilling , PSARC-EXT@sun.com, Marcel Telka , Darren.Reed@sun.com Message-id: <45B92FF5.9010105@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45B7DE7F.705@sun.com> <45B8DD89.8020309@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125170857.GZ12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8E642.3090006@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125173913.GC12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8F1B3.7080302@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125182042.GG12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8F77D.2060707@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125184202.GJ12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8FDA2.8040000@BigBandNet.COM> <45B90BF4.5020806@Sun.Com> <45B90E41.7030204@BigBandNet.COM> <45B91F15.2070804@Sun.Com> <45B92138.6040307@sun.com> <45B929EE.6090101@Sun.Com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060925) Status: RO Content-Length: 2687 John Plocher wrote: > As Alan points out as well, the problem with the "put it all into > /usr/bin" > is that I can no longer eeasily replace/upgrade the various OSS bits on > my system to the latest ones released by their owners because Sun (or > OpenSolaris) has chosen to bundle an old version in such a way as to make > it impossible for me to replace it. > I think this is because our packaging doesn't have the appropriate granularity and the OSS bits want to rely on "rm" and "tar". The location in the file system only seems remotely associated. >> In a distributed computing world, you couldn't depend upon this. How >> many people >> would use this? > > > The distributed world at Sun seems to be able to depend on /usr/dist > (an NFS > filesystem that has 20Gb of shared executables) while at the same time > allowing > individual servers/workstations the ability to override the bits they > provide. Think in terms of rlogin and your home directory following you. On one system the links exist, on another they do not. Ouch! > Part of the difficulty we are having with OSS stuff is that we are not > acknowledging that [Open]Solaris is just a small part of the bigger > picture; > that we are _not_ the owners of these bits, and the bits evolve at > faster rates > than we do. Every time we taks a bit of OSS out of its global context > and > shove it into a dusty corner of [Open]Solaris, we are making it harder > for > developers to "just use" [Open]Solaris. This seems to be an argument for /usr/bin. Not much dust in /usr/bin. > Another goal here is what Roy said: > > > As a developer, I really don't care where these tools are provided > > as long as it is possible to find them on the path and, once found, > > the tools are exactly as distributed by the tool author. > > Sun's Marketing doesn't really care about the technical issues around > /usr/bin and /usr/gnu; they are more interested in the default user > experience. The OSS bits need to be delivered by default and work by > default. In their mind, a new user on Solaris *should* be able to log > in, download a project off of Sourceforge, type ./configure; make; > make install, and have it all just work. Wouldn't that put it into /usr/bin, as with on all Linux distros? This isn't even an argument to put duplicates of everything into the /usr/gnu/bin directory. The senario of downloading from sourceforge and ending up with a newer copy of everything in /usr/gnu, leaving the copies in /usr/bin untouched seems like the best possible result to me. You've completely updated /usr/gnu and people who have it in there paths and left the system versions in /usr/bin unchanged. - jek3 From jek3@sun.com Thu Jan 25 14:49:59 2007 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0PMnxqo015621 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 14:49:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0PMnrPf007653; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 14:49:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCG00D1Z4R5IX00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 14:49:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from jurassic.eng.sun.com ([129.146.224.31]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCG007GF4R26D80@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 14:49:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from [129.150.12.53] (vpn-129-150-12-53.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.12.53]) by jurassic.eng.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l0PMniwI356732; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 14:49:44 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 12:48:03 -1000 From: Joseph Kowalski Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <45B92F2D.7020903@BigBandNet.COM> To: Kyle McDonald Cc: Joerg Schilling , james.d.carlson@sun.com, PSARC-EXT@sun.com, pete@sorted.org, Nicolas.Williams@sun.com, Marcel.Telka@sun.com, gww@eng.sun.com, Darren.Reed@sun.com, barts@eng.sun.com Message-id: <45B933A3.9070809@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200701240607.l0O67Z4O023171@marduk.eng.sun.com> <20070124061851.GB27682@eng.sun.com> <45B75FA2.1080504@sun.com> <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45B7DE7F.705@sun.com> <45B8DD89.8020309@BigBandNet.COM> <45B8E5F2.8030402@sorted.org> <20070125182741.GH12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45b92255.SyqzRrKkOs/PRkIC%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <17849.9403.952498.38547@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <45b9264f.RSHgM9nsokcMAhkh%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <45B92B48.7050104@sun.com> <45B92F2D.7020903@BigBandNet.COM> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060925) Status: RO Content-Length: 516 Kyle McDonald wrote: > Joseph Kowalski wrote: >> >> That all said, what problems (other than asthetics) does having gnome in >> /usr/bin cause? A properly constructed path should let you interpose >> another. >> > Really only if you are wililng to install it local to the machine. > > Isn't the network the computer? ;) > > -Kyle I don't understand. Is this to be robust in the face of a failed NFS server? We offer many mechanisms to address that problem, the simplest of which is replicated servers. - jek3 From schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de Thu Jan 25 15:56:40 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0PNud1b018345 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 15:56:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0PNuHpW002788; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 07:56:33 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCG00I057U7IO00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 15:56:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from sca-ea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.43.24]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCG0076M7U768E0@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 15:56:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay23.sun.com (relay23.sun.com [192.12.251.54] (may be forged)) by sca-ea-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l0PNuUSh016462; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 15:56:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from mms28es.sun.com ([150.143.232.154] [150.143.232.154]) by relay23.sun.com with ESMTP; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 23:56:30 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay24.sun.com (relay24.sun.com [192.12.251.74]) by mms28es.sun.com with ESMTP; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 23:56:29 +0000 (Z) Received: from mailhub.fokus.fraunhofer.de ([193.174.154.14] [193.174.154.14]) by relay24.sun.com with ESMTP; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 23:56:29 +0000 (Z) Received: from burner.fokus.fraunhofer.de (burner [10.147.65.166]) by mailhub.fokus.fraunhofer.de (8.11.6p2/8.11.6) with ESMTP id l0PNuS923789; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 00:56:28 +0100 (MET) Received: (from jes@localhost) by burner.fokus.fraunhofer.de (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/Submit) id l0PNsVux011938; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 00:54:31 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 00:54:31 +0100 From: Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (Joerg Schilling) Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <45B7FB95.3090700@sun.com> Sender: schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de To: jek3@sun.com Cc: Torrey.McMahon@sun.com, PSARC-EXT@sun.com, James.D.Carlson@sun.com Message-id: <45b94337.ARcwUIq4feRrwijA%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200701240607.l0O67Z4O023171@marduk.eng.sun.com> <20070124061851.GB27682@eng.sun.com> <45B75FA2.1080504@sun.com> <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45b78b19.UuA5rTidJOnO3/65%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169657347.2419.13.camel@tortuga> <45B78F14.6000003@Sun.COM> <17847.37781.741472.969057@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20070124183623.GB17316@eng.sun.com> <17847.51094.526008.806655@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <45B7C8E0.9040808@BigBandNet.COM> <1169673362.1569.62.camel@loghost> <17847.53544.787890.608786@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <45B7DA96.60902@sun.com> <45b7f39c.yRY9joX2ag8NQVb3%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <45B7FB95.3090700@sun.com> User-Agent: nail 11.22 3/20/05 Status: RO Content-Length: 6637 Joseph Kowalski wrote: > Joerg Schilling wrote: > > The Sun tooochest has a big value and it has a big future potential. > > Don't ever think about giving it up, but _we_ (the OpenSolaris community) > > need to find a way to overhoul it. > > > I think we all agree this is good. The devil lies in the details about > how to best make this > happen. > > BTW: I think the short term gains made by OpenSolaris will be in > userland (and device > support), simply because we've not spent enough resources on it and the > learning curve > on the kernel (and to be honest, kernel politics - IMHO) is rather > steep. (Its not that the > politics will exclude anyone, its just that the politics *and* the code > have steep learning > curves.) I also believe that the kernel did get a lot attention in the past. This was good, but the userland needs also attention. Attention in a careful way that does not add new options without carefully thinking about them. I prefer to e.g. add libfind features to a command before trying to add a few new and less powerful options the same command. See e.g. what a few options in GNU tar allow you to to while star with libfind allows you to do the same and much more using the well known find(1) command line. In the 1970s, people wo did work on the kernel did also work on the userland. Today, people seem to be not inmtersted or even afraid from enhancing the userland. > > - SCCS has been converted by Sun to use getopt() and getopt() is > > not a high quality finction. It is far way from being able to > > correctly replace hand written option parsers. Similar deficits are in > > GNU getopt_long(). > > > > As a result, admin(1) has been broken and did (as a result of another > > bug) not allow an "empty MR list" at all (although documented). After > > fixing this bug, it does still suffer from the fact that > > > > getopt(argc, argv, "m:"); > > > > does not allow "-m" as -m with no arg but only -m "". > > > If I read this right, what you are suggesting is adding a bug. POSIX claims that the man page is relevent in last consequence. Unfortunately, the old sccs admin man page did say: -m mrlist while the axctual (old) implementation did only accept -mmrlist I would argue that this was rather a bug in the documentation... > getopts is quite explicit that optional option arguments are not allowed. > > There is good reason for this. Consider the synopsis: > > foo [ -m [option-arg-for-m] ] file ... > > Now, take the example: > > foo -m foo bar > > Is foo the option argument for -m or one of the file operands? Its > ambiguous. GNU's command line > definitions allow this and commands are left to heiristically resolve > the ambiguity. We don't go there. > There is even a lengthy discussion around the CLIP standard as to why > this is. We do not desire > ambiguous command lines. This is why getopt() is not clever enough.... If you like to implement optional arguments to options, you need to be able to disallow spaces between the option name and the argument. Other reasons for being able have a more richer set of otion format flags is: - Once you have more than very few options, you need long options. (mkisofs has 200 basic options). - Once you have more long options with parameters, there is a chance that some of those options start with a common prefix. If you would allow both: -long-option argument and -long-optionargument then you end up with the problem that a small typo in the command line will assign the miss spelled part as argument to an option that is only a common prefix. This is something that happened frequently with mkisofs and this is why I did convert mkisofs from GNU getopt_long() to my getargs() family. I recommend you to have a look at a recent version of cdrtools ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/cdrecord/alpha/ and check what I did in order to prevent such problems. {{"o* ,output* ", &outfile }, "\1FILE\1Set output file name"}, The getvargs() format descriptor "o* " disallows -oarg. The problem with sccs admin was that the original did only accept -marg while the version that has been converted to use getopt() did no longer allow the "well known" way to specify no arg to -m. What I did last week, was to allow at least -m ''. Check ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/sccs/ for a fixed version of the source. > > Such problems could be solved with my getargs() which implements > > a richer set of formats and allows e.g. to enforce a space > > between the option and the parameter or to enforce no space. > > > As it so happens, I'm probably the guy to historically talk to about > getopts. getopts() cannot be enhanced without making it incompatible to the POSIX standard. But note that although POSIX contains getopt, POSIX does not require POSIX CLI compliant programs to use getopt(). > However, I'm not sure that we want a richer set of formats. We want > something that forces the caller (as > much as possible) to the getopts standard we adhear to which is a slight > extension to that from the > SUS standards. getopts() does not allow all POSIX CLI variant to be implemented. Even though Sun's getopt() allows long options, it does not allow to use it for programs like mkisofs that have 200 basic options. This is because Sun's getopt() requires an ajacent short option. My getargs() family allows to implement all POSIX CLI variants, is ready for many long options _and_ does not depend on internal state in global variables. > Of course, behind all this is the fact that there are just about as many > command line format preferences > as there are programmers in the world, perhaps more. Couple that with a > dirth of actual research and > this become a ripe area for bar room discussions. Some old but real > research (customer polls) done > by Kathy Hemmingway when she was at AT&T yielded an overwhelming answer: > > "We really don't care what it (the standard) is, but we want one and > we want it to be consisantly > applied". > > We try to follow this dictum. That's why strict getopt conformance is > strongly encouraged. As I already did try to explain, getopt() is not ready for the future, this is why I prefer the older getargs() before of the younger and less powerful getopt(). Jörg -- EMail:joerg@schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin js@cs.tu-berlin.de (uni) schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily From jek3@sun.com Thu Jan 25 18:40:37 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0Q2eaNv023712 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 18:40:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0Q2eIYt009124; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 10:40:32 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCG00G03FFHLV00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 18:40:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from jurassic.eng.sun.com ([129.146.17.55]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCG00JN5FFGYK90@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 18:40:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from [129.150.12.53] (vpn-129-150-12-53.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.12.53]) by jurassic.eng.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l0Q2eLbo417661; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 18:40:22 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 16:38:38 -1000 From: Joseph Kowalski Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <45b94337.ARcwUIq4feRrwijA%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> To: Joerg Schilling Cc: Torrey.McMahon@sun.com, PSARC-EXT@sun.com, James.D.Carlson@sun.com Message-id: <45B969AE.3060207@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200701240607.l0O67Z4O023171@marduk.eng.sun.com> <20070124061851.GB27682@eng.sun.com> <45B75FA2.1080504@sun.com> <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45b78b19.UuA5rTidJOnO3/65%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169657347.2419.13.camel@tortuga> <45B78F14.6000003@Sun.COM> <17847.37781.741472.969057@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20070124183623.GB17316@eng.sun.com> <17847.51094.526008.806655@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <45B7C8E0.9040808@BigBandNet.COM> <1169673362.1569.62.camel@loghost> <17847.53544.787890.608786@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <45B7DA96.60902@sun.com> <45b7f39c.yRY9joX2ag8NQVb3%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <45B7FB95.3090700@sun.com> <45b94337.ARcwUIq4feRrwijA%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060925) Status: RO Content-Length: 8504 Joerg Schilling wrote: > In the 1970s, people wo did work on the kernel did also work on the userland. > Today, people seem to be not inmtersted or even afraid from enhancing the > userland. > I agree this is a problem, but before OpenSolaris I don't think it was a matter of fear, but of Sun funding too few people to work on the userland. That's a form of disinterest on the part of management, but it doesn't reflect disinterest on the part of the engineering staff. > Unfortunately, the old sccs admin man page did say: > > -m mrlist > > while the axctual (old) implementation did only accept > > -mmrlist > > I would argue that this was rather a bug in the documentation... > Perhaps in this case, but maybe not. Many moons ago, the whole sccs command set didn't accept spaces between the option flag and the option operand. They were supposed to all be modified to accept either a space or not and since the preferred way (as in getopt()) was to have the space, the man pages were so modified. I think the bug is that the space isn't accepted by admin. It seems we missed an update to sccs admin. Its not surprising because we (Sun) don't use MR lists. (However, see below before responding) >> getopts is quite explicit that optional option arguments are not allowed. >> >> There is good reason for this. Consider the synopsis: >> >> foo [ -m [option-arg-for-m] ] file ... >> >> Now, take the example: >> >> foo -m foo bar >> >> Is foo the option argument for -m or one of the file operands? Its >> ambiguous. GNU's command line >> definitions allow this and commands are left to heiristically resolve >> the ambiguity. We don't go there. >> There is even a lengthy discussion around the CLIP standard as to why >> this is. We do not desire >> ambiguous command lines. >> > > This is why getopt() is not clever enough.... > > If you like to implement optional arguments to options, you need to be able > to disallow spaces between the option name and the argument. > That's the point. We not only don't like them, we hate them. Ambiguity serves nobody. This is really 15 years of Sun/Solaris culture and standard. > Other reasons for being able have a more richer set of otion format flags > is: > > - Once you have more than very few options, you need long options. > (mkisofs has 200 basic options). > Our usual view is if a command needs something like 200 options, you've incorrectly factored the command. This is also we added the "cmd subcmd" form to our standard. I can't remember if getopt_clip() enforces the "each long flag must have a short flag" rule. If getopt_long() does, it sounds like a bug to me. > - Once you have more long options with parameters, there is a chance > that some of those options start with a common prefix. > > If you would allow both: > > -long-option argument > > and > > -long-optionargument > > then you end up with the problem that a small typo in the command line > will assign the miss spelled part as argument to an option that > is only a common prefix. This is something that happened frequently > with mkisofs and this is why I did convert mkisofs from GNU > getopt_long() to my getargs() family. I recommend you to have a look > at a recent version of cdrtools ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/cdrecord/alpha/ > and check what I did in order to prevent such problems. > I'm pretty sure we removed the "a prefix is sufficient" stuff from our getopt(), getopt_clip() and getopt_long() implementations, just for the reasons you mentioned. Its also part of the reason we don't allow optional option arguments. > {{"o* ,output* ", &outfile }, > "\1FILE\1Set output file name"}, > > The getvargs() format descriptor "o* " disallows -oarg. > > The problem with sccs admin was that the original did only accept -marg > while the version that has been converted to use getopt() did no longer allow > the "well known" way to specify no arg to -m. > I'll note that the option argument for -m is not optional according to our admin man page, so why are you concerned about specifying one? Our man page doesn't provide a semantic for such a case. I'll further note that many of the other options to admin do have optional option arguments. This is an historical command, existing before anybody heard of getopt() and maybe a partial conversion (to allow spaces) was a mistake. This is just legacy and sometimes legacy should be left alone. If we introduced ambiguity in the interest of being closer to getopt(), the wrong thing happened. I would like to include two paragraphs from the getopt_long() man page: The getopt_long() function is an aid for implementing the GNU command line argument conventions. See the GNU documen- tation for the details of these conventions (glibc 2.2.3). Note that the GNU conventions are not POSIX-conforming. Most notably, the GNU conventions allow for optional option- arguments and do not enforce that operands must follow options on the command line. The getopt_clip() function provides an interface similar to getopt_long() except that it implements the Sun CLIP conven- tion, which is slightly more restrictive than the GNU/Freeware conventions. CLIP is modeled after the GNU/Freeware conventions but removes POSIX violations and syntactic ambiguities (see intro(1)). Specifically, getopt_clip() is a command line parser that can be used by applications that follow the Command Line Interface Paradigm or CLIP syntax guidelines 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 9, 10, 15, and 16. The remaining guidelines are not addressed by getopt_clip() and are the responsibility of the application. Note that we greatly frown on using getopt_long() for anything other than porting an existing, well known utility that follows the GNU conventions. If it were a new OpenSolaris command that used it, we would probably require that it didn't (Did I mention that we hate ambiguity?) There is no strong preference between using getopt() or getopt_long for commands following the CLIP guidelines. There is *strong* material in the CLIP spec and opinion as to when the use of CLIP is appropriate. I think its pretty good reading. > What I did last week, was to allow at least -m ''. > That should be allowed, provided it has a defined semantic. > getopts() cannot be enhanced without making it incompatible to the POSIX > standard. But note that although POSIX contains getopt, POSIX does not > require POSIX CLI compliant programs to use getopt() > Right. We chose, very consistantly (while retaining legacy) a different approach. > getopts() does not allow all POSIX CLI variant to be implemented. > Even though Sun's getopt() allows long options, it does not allow > to use it for programs like mkisofs that have 200 basic options. > This is because Sun's getopt() requires an ajacent short option. > My getargs() family allows to implement all POSIX CLI variants, is ready > for many long options _and_ does not depend on internal state in global > variables. > Huh? Having a long option is not allowed by POSIX. Discounting the couple of characters not allowed, you are limited to something like 70 reasonable options. This is because our getopt was enhanced not too many years ago to allow long options to be included but iff the short-option/long-option pairing rule is followed. If you don't follow this rule, I think you need to use getopt_long() or getopt_clip(). This brings me to a request. I'd appreciate it if you would stop calling our design decisions "bugs", because you don't agree with our design decisions. Its perfectly OK to question our design decisions and even revisit them, but I think its a disservice to all to make it sound like these are unintentional accidents. They are as designed and specified. A partial list of the PSARC cases you should know about: 1991/031 getopts usage (note: 15+ years ago) 1999/645 Command Line Interface (CLIP) 2003/035 getopt_long and getopt_clip The changes to getopt(3c) are to be found in 1999/645. I was to sponsor of all three of these and the submitter of two. I rewrote the CLIP one so much to get it approvable, that I perhaps should also be listed as an author there, but the motivation came from our Human Interfaces group. These are all available on the OpenSolaris site. - jek3 From Marcel.Telka@sun.com Fri Jan 26 00:03:18 2007 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0Q83I6Z028573 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 00:03:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0Q83G6f016563 for <@sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-EXT@sun.com>; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 00:03:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCG00B0JUDGTT00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Fri, 26 Jan 2007 00:03:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com ([129.156.42.5]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCG00L5SUDFBF50@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Fri, 26 Jan 2007 00:03:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from d1-emea-09.sun.com (d1-emea-09.sun.com [192.18.2.119]) by gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l0Q83ELh026299 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 08:03:14 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-emea-09.sun.com by d1-emea-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JCG00H01U9HIH00@d1-emea-09.sun.com> (original mail from Marcel.Telka@Sun.COM) for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Fri, 26 Jan 2007 08:03:14 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [129.157.71.66] by d1-emea-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JCG00M0EUDE0NQ1@d1-emea-09.sun.com> for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Fri, 26 Jan 2007 08:03:14 +0000 (GMT) Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 09:03:13 +0100 From: Marcel Telka Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <45B8E049.6090701@BigBandNet.COM> Sender: Marcel.Telka@sun.com To: Kyle McDonald Cc: PSARC-EXT@sun.com Message-id: <1169798593.7735.1.camel@tortuga> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.8.1.1 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200701240607.l0O67Z4O023171@marduk.eng.sun.com> <20070124061851.GB27682@eng.sun.com> <45B75FA2.1080504@sun.com> <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45b78b19.UuA5rTidJOnO3/65%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169657347.2419.13.camel@tortuga> <45B78F14.6000003@Sun.COM> <17847.37781.741472.969057@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20070124183623.GB17316@eng.sun.com> <17847.51094.526008.806655@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <45B7C8E0.9040808@BigBandNet.COM> <1169673362.1569.62.camel@loghost> <45B7D15E.6070708@BigBandNet.COM> <1169716337.4335.3.camel@tortuga> <45B8E049.6090701@BigBandNet.COM> Status: RO Content-Length: 825 On Thu, 2007-01-25 at 11:52 -0500, Kyle McDonald wrote: > Marcel Telka wrote: > > There is not something like THE Linux Distribution, so you could not > > create something like /usr/linux. If you want to follow this schema you > > should create something > > like /usr/rh4, /usr/suse9, /usr/debian3, /usr/myown-nongnubased-linux-distro. We probably do not want this :-). > > > > > There may not be a single distribution, but due to the LSB, I bet all > the tools we are discussing here are located in the same place on all > (or the vast majority) linux distributions. > > But if both /usr/gnu and /usr/linux are the wrong names, how about > /usr/oss?? I think that (Open)Solaris is also OSS, isn't it? > (I'm guessing /sur/fsw - for Free Soft Ware - is too close to /usr/sfw.) > > -Kyle > > -- Marcel Telka From gsf@research.att.com Fri Jan 26 00:19:27 2007 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0Q8JBEZ028788 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 00:19:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0Q8J8GM018864; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 00:19:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCG00D01V3T3L00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 00:19:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.98.43]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCG00LQCV3SAZ50@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 00:19:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay12.sun.com (relay12.sun.com [217.140.40.34] (may be forged)) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l0Q8J3pa029164; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 01:19:04 -0700 (MST) Received: from mms12es.sun.com ([160.41.223.34] [160.41.223.34]) by relay12.sun.com with ESMTP; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 08:19:03 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay12.sun.com (relay12.sun.com [217.140.40.34]) by mms12es.sun.com with ESMTP; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 08:19:03 +0000 (Z) Received: from mail-red.research.att.com ([192.20.225.110] [192.20.225.110]) by relay12.sun.com with ESMTP; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 08:19:03 +0000 (Z) Received: from penguin.research.att.com (penguin.research.att.com [135.207.20.192]) by mail-blue.research.att.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C1D7147B4D; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 03:19:02 -0500 (EST) Received: (from gsf@localhost) by penguin.research.att.com (8.13.1/8.12.10/Submit) id l0Q8J1OM005912; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 03:19:01 -0500 Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 03:19:01 -0500 From: Glenn Fowler Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page To: jek3@sun.com, Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de Cc: James.D.Carlson@sun.com, PSARC-EXT@sun.com, Torrey.McMahon@sun.com Message-id: <200701260819.l0Q8J1OM005912@penguin.research.att.com> Organization: AT&T Research MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: mailx (AT&T/BSD) 9.9 2006-04-17 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200701240607.l0O67Z4O023171@marduk.eng.sun.com> <20070124061851.GB27682@eng.sun.com> <45B75FA2.1080504@sun.com> <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45b78b19.UuA5rTidJOnO3/65%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169657347.2419.13.camel@tortuga> <45B78F14.6000003@Sun.COM> <17847.37781.741472.969057@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20070124183623.GB17316@eng.sun.com> <17847.51094.526008.806655@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <45B7C8E0.9040808@BigBandNet.COM> <1169673362.1569.62.camel@loghost> <17847.53544.787890.608786@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <45B7DA96.60902@sun.com> <45b7f39c.yRY9joX2ag8NQVb3%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <45B7FB95.3090700@sun.com> <45b94337.ARcwUIq4feRrwijA%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <45B969AE.3060207@sun.com> Status: RO Content-Length: 707 On Thu, 25 Jan 2007 16:38:38 -1000 Joseph Kowalski wrote: > Having a long option is not allowed by POSIX. long options of the form --long-name # option '-' with arg "long-name" --long-name=value # option '-' with arg "long-name=value" are supported by getopts -- -: where '-' is the option flag name that takes an option argument posix states option flags should be alnum, but does not "shall out" other chars like '-' not that long options should be coded this way (most of the work must be done outside of getopts on the optarg string) just that posix does not forbid them and actually (unintentionally?) provides an interface to handle them -- Glenn Fowler -- AT&T Research, Florham Park NJ -- From jek3@sun.com Fri Jan 26 01:45:13 2007 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0Q9jDgN000155 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 01:45:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0Q9jCj3000028; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 01:45:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCG00709Z3AUV00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 01:45:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from jurassic.eng.sun.com ([129.146.104.45]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCG00LC7Z37W950@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 01:45:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from [129.150.12.53] (vpn-129-150-12-53.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.12.53]) by jurassic.eng.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l0Q9iqZh484667; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 01:45:02 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 23:43:07 -1000 From: Joseph Kowalski Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <200701260819.l0Q8J1OM005912@penguin.research.att.com> To: Glenn Fowler Cc: Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de, James.D.Carlson@sun.com, PSARC-EXT@sun.com, Torrey.McMahon@sun.com Message-id: <45B9CD2B.1040302@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200701240607.l0O67Z4O023171@marduk.eng.sun.com> <20070124061851.GB27682@eng.sun.com> <45B75FA2.1080504@sun.com> <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45b78b19.UuA5rTidJOnO3/65%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169657347.2419.13.camel@tortuga> <45B78F14.6000003@Sun.COM> <17847.37781.741472.969057@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20070124183623.GB17316@eng.sun.com> <17847.51094.526008.806655@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <45B7C8E0.9040808@BigBandNet.COM> <1169673362.1569.62.camel@loghost> <17847.53544.787890.608786@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <45B7DA96.60902@sun.com> <45b7f39c.yRY9joX2ag8NQVb3%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <45B7FB95.3090700@sun.com> <45b94337.ARcwUIq4feRrwijA%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <45B969AE.3060207@sun.com> <200701260819.l0Q8J1OM005912@penguin.research.att.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060925) Status: RO Content-Length: 1416 Glenn Fowler wrote: > On Thu, 25 Jan 2007 16:38:38 -1000 Joseph Kowalski wrote: > >> Having a long option is not allowed by POSIX. >> > > long options of the form > --long-name # option '-' with arg "long-name" > --long-name=value # option '-' with arg "long-name=value" > are supported by > getopts -- -: > where '-' is the option flag name that takes an option argument > > posix states option flags should be alnum, but does not "shall out" > other chars like '-' > > not that long options should be coded this way > (most of the work must be done outside of getopts on the optarg string) > just that posix does not forbid them > and actually (unintentionally?) provides an interface to handle them > > -- Glenn Fowler -- AT&T Research, Florham Park NJ -- > Oh wow, this really gets into the differences between the XPG/SUS text about command line options, the XPG/SUS specification of getopt() and the semantic definition of "--". That's a pretty deep diversion from the substance of this case (and yea, I've been a huge part of that diversion). Its time for me to call a halt to this. If Joerg, Glenn or anybody else wants to continue this in a different forum, I'd be glad to. Its not like I haven't been here before. Of course, a parting shot... Its not what the routine will or will not let you do. Its about what the associated text says you should or should not do. - jek3 From casper@holland.sun.com Fri Jan 26 01:52:51 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0Q9qn6p000207 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 01:52:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0Q9qbXv011373; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 17:52:46 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCG00901ZFX8J00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 01:52:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from dm-holland-02.uk.sun.com ([129.156.101.225]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCG00D5DZFWFPF0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 01:52:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from vaticaan.holland.sun.com (vaticaan.Holland.Sun.COM [129.159.204.1]) by dm-holland-02.uk.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0Q9qaUV016231; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 09:52:36 +0000 (GMT) Received: from holland (casper@room101 [129.159.201.52]) by vaticaan.holland.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l0Q9qaTK005044; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 10:52:36 +0100 (MET) Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 10:52:36 +0100 From: Casper.Dik@sun.com Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <20070125212704.GT12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> Sender: casper@holland.sun.com To: Nicolas Williams Cc: John Plocher , Kyle McDonald , barts@eng.sun.com, gww@eng.sun.com, Joerg Schilling , Joseph Kowalski , PSARC-EXT@sun.com, Marcel Telka , Darren.Reed@sun.com Message-id: <200701260952.l0Q9qaTK005044@vaticaan.holland.sun.com> Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <45B8E642.3090006@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125173913.GC12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8F1B3.7080302@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125182042.GG12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8F77D.2060707@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125184202.GJ12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8FDA2.8040000@BigBandNet.COM> <45B90BF4.5020806@Sun.Com> <45B90E41.7030204@BigBandNet.COM> <45B91F15.2070804@Sun.Com> <20070125212704.GT12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> Status: RO Content-Length: 456 >On Thu, Jan 25, 2007 at 01:20:21PM -0800, John Plocher wrote: >> There shall also exist a "symlink convenience package" >> for each "OSS Stuff" that (following the "no conflict" rules >> mentioned elsewhere in this thread) makes symlinks in >> /usr/bin. [...] > >Shouldn't we avoid symlinks in /usr/bin for performance? Or is that a >non-issue? What do you think the overhead of a symlink in /usr/bin is compared to fork/exec? Casper From schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de Fri Jan 26 02:00:03 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0QA026s000643 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 02:00:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0Q9xqJb022534; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 09:59:56 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCG00A0BZRTBR00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 01:59:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from sca-ea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.43.24]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCG00L5EZRSVS50@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 01:59:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay11.sun.com (relay11.sun.com [217.140.40.14] (may be forged)) by sca-ea-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l0Q9xpp7020685; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 01:59:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from mms11es.sun.com ([160.41.223.14] [160.41.223.14]) by relay11.sun.com with ESMTP; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 09:59:51 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay13.sun.com (relay13.sun.com [217.140.40.54]) by mms11es.sun.com with ESMTP; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 09:59:51 +0000 (Z) Received: from mailhub.fokus.fraunhofer.de ([193.174.154.14] [193.174.154.14]) by relay13.sun.com with ESMTP; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 09:59:51 +0000 (Z) Received: from burner.fokus.fraunhofer.de (burner [10.147.65.166]) by mailhub.fokus.fraunhofer.de (8.11.6p2/8.11.6) with ESMTP id l0Q9xn919867; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 10:59:49 +0100 (MET) Received: (from jes@localhost) by burner.fokus.fraunhofer.de (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/Submit) id l0Q9vqnt012160; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 10:57:52 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 10:57:52 +0100 From: Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (Joerg Schilling) Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <20070125202341.GP12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> Sender: schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de To: Nicolas.Williams@sun.com, jek3@sun.com Cc: PSARC-EXT@sun.com, Marcel.Telka@sun.com, Kyle.McDonald@bigbandnet.com, gww@eng.sun.com, Darren.Reed@sun.com, barts@eng.sun.com Message-id: <45b9d0a0.v1vbA54+1Qs8vY48%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200701240607.l0O67Z4O023171@marduk.eng.sun.com> <20070124061851.GB27682@eng.sun.com> <45B75FA2.1080504@sun.com> <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45B7DE7F.705@sun.com> <45B8DD89.8020309@BigBandNet.COM> <17848.58989.858589.51932@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <45B8E900.3080005@BigBandNet.COM> <45B91001.2010001@sun.com> <20070125202341.GP12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> User-Agent: nail 11.22 3/20/05 Status: RO Content-Length: 606 Nicolas Williams wrote: > I lied. One more off-topic post: a psetenv(1) proc util might be a nice > way to deal with PATH management in a shell-neutral, dot-file avoiding > way. How do you like to implement this and correctly handle the memory allocation in the other process? Jörg -- EMail:joerg@schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin js@cs.tu-berlin.de (uni) schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily From casper@holland.sun.com Fri Jan 26 02:03:12 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0QA3BoN000689 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 02:03:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0QA32T2013561; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 18:03:07 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCG00K13ZX3B400@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 02:03:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from dm-holland-02.uk.sun.com ([129.156.101.225]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCG00LCMZX1B1B0@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 02:03:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from vaticaan.holland.sun.com (vaticaan.Holland.Sun.COM [129.159.212.1]) by dm-holland-02.uk.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0QA2qJE018490; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 10:02:52 +0000 (GMT) Received: from holland (casper@room101 [129.159.201.52]) by vaticaan.holland.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l0QA2q80007691; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 11:02:52 +0100 (MET) Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 11:02:52 +0100 From: Casper.Dik@sun.com Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <45B92B48.7050104@sun.com> Sender: casper@holland.sun.com To: Joseph Kowalski Cc: Joerg Schilling , James.D.Carlson@sun.com, PSARC-EXT@sun.com, pete@sorted.org, Nicolas.Williams@sun.com, Marcel.Telka@sun.com, Kyle.McDonald@bigbandnet.com, gww@eng.sun.com, Darren.Reed@sun.com, barts@eng.sun.com Message-id: <200701261002.l0QA2q80007691@vaticaan.holland.sun.com> Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200701240607.l0O67Z4O023171@marduk.eng.sun.com> <20070124061851.GB27682@eng.sun.com> <45B75FA2.1080504@sun.com> <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45B7DE7F.705@sun.com> <45B8DD89.8020309@BigBandNet.COM> <45B8E5F2.8030402@sorted.org> <20070125182741.GH12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45b92255.SyqzRrKkOs/PRkIC%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <17849.9403.952498.38547@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <45b9264f.RSHgM9nsokcMAhkh%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <45B92B48.7050104@sun.com> Status: RO Content-Length: 312 >I personally think we are being too compatibility concerned by not updating >the S10 gnome in an S10 Update. The reality might be that this is more of a >resource issue, rather than a compatibility issue. As a bar minimum, we should release a GNOME update for S10 which people can install as option. Casper From schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de Fri Jan 26 02:54:46 2007 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0QAskSX001907 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 02:54:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0QAsiSl015697; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 02:54:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCH001032B67H00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 02:54:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from sca-ea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.43.24]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCH00LV82B5B1D0@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 02:54:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay23.sun.com (relay23.sun.com [192.12.251.54] (may be forged)) by sca-ea-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l0QAsfke015467; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 02:54:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from mms28es.sun.com ([150.143.232.154] [150.143.232.154]) by relay23.sun.com with ESMTP; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 10:54:40 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay22.sun.com (relay22.sun.com [192.12.251.34]) by mms28es.sun.com with ESMTP; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 10:54:40 +0000 (Z) Received: from mailhub.fokus.fraunhofer.de ([193.174.154.14] [193.174.154.14]) by relay22.sun.com with ESMTP; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 10:54:40 +0000 (Z) Received: from burner.fokus.fraunhofer.de (burner [10.147.65.166]) by mailhub.fokus.fraunhofer.de (8.11.6p2/8.11.6) with ESMTP id l0QAsc925918; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 11:54:39 +0100 (MET) Received: (from jes@localhost) by burner.fokus.fraunhofer.de (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/Submit) id l0QAqf6r012181; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 11:52:41 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 11:52:41 +0100 From: Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (Joerg Schilling) Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <45B91F4D.9020107@sun.com> Sender: schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de To: jek3@sun.com Cc: PSARC-EXT@sun.com, Marcel.Telka@sun.com, Kyle.McDonald@bigbandnet.com Message-id: <45b9dd79.cecuxDWGNpb4Cgnj%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200701240607.l0O67Z4O023171@marduk.eng.sun.com> <20070124061851.GB27682@eng.sun.com> <45B75FA2.1080504@sun.com> <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45b78b19.UuA5rTidJOnO3/65%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169657347.2419.13.camel@tortuga> <45B78F14.6000003@Sun.COM> <17847.37781.741472.969057@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20070124183623.GB17316@eng.sun.com> <17847.51094.526008.806655@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <45B7C8E0.9040808@BigBandNet.COM> <1169673362.1569.62.camel@loghost> <45B7D15E.6070708@BigBandNet.COM> <1169716337.4335.3.camel@tortuga> <45B8E049.6090701@BigBandNet.COM> <45b91c97.W5q7W46jJC8nxdfW%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <45B91F4D.9020107@sun.com> User-Agent: nail 11.22 3/20/05 Status: RO Content-Length: 1666 Joseph Kowalski wrote: > > Which program should win /usr/oss/bin/make as name? > > > > BSD's make? > > My smake? > > GNU make? > > > > let oldest program (see my order) or what? > > > > Which program should win /usr/oss/bin/tar? > > > > star's "tar" CLI emulation? > > GNU "tar"? > > > > There are many others but make & tar seem to be the most popular conflicting names. > > > > Let me also name cpio, pax, ..... > > > > Jörg > > > The existing logic is that the owner of the *specification*, not the > owner of the implementation should > be the name. In the case of the FOSS world, these are usually the same. > > The scary part is that we could end up with /usr/schilling by this > logic. :-) There is more than one trigger for problems: - Programs like make, tar, cpio, pax are already known. Sources for this category of programs are: - AT&T/SVr4/Sun - *BSD - David Korn/Glenn Fowler - Schily ... - Programs using generic names. Examples: - Around 1984, I wrote a program "compare" that is similar to the UNIX "cmp" program. It implements a generic file compare and thus "owns" the name correctly. - Less than 3 years ago, the toolset "imagemagick" started to include a program called "compare" that is able to do some sort of image compare operation. How do you like to deal with both categories of problems. Jörg -- EMail:joerg@schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin js@cs.tu-berlin.de (uni) schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily From schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de Fri Jan 26 03:54:37 2007 Received: from sunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM (sunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.17]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0QBsaNH002592 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 03:54:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.11.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0QBsVj05828; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 04:54:31 -0700 (MST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCH00C0352VAE00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 03:54:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.98.43]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCH00L1552UB5D0@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 03:54:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay21.sun.com (relay21.sun.com [192.12.251.14] (may be forged)) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l0QBsTVg019974; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 04:54:29 -0700 (MST) Received: from mms28es.sun.com ([150.143.232.154] [150.143.232.154]) by relay21.sun.com with ESMTP; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 11:54:29 +0000 (Z) Received: from mms23bas.mms.us.syntegra.com (mms23bas.mms.us.syntegra.com [192.12.251.50]) by mms28es.sun.com with ESMTP; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 11:54:29 +0000 (Z) Received: from mailhub.fokus.fraunhofer.de ([193.174.154.14] [193.174.154.14]) by relay23.sun.com with ESMTP; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 11:54:28 +0000 (Z) Received: from burner.fokus.fraunhofer.de (burner [10.147.65.166]) by mailhub.fokus.fraunhofer.de (8.11.6p2/8.11.6) with ESMTP id l0QBsQ902024; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 12:54:26 +0100 (MET) Received: (from jes@localhost) by burner.fokus.fraunhofer.de (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/Submit) id l0QBqToD012201; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 12:52:29 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 12:52:28 +0100 From: Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (Joerg Schilling) Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <17849.9403.952498.38547@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Sender: schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de To: james.d.carlson@sun.com Cc: PSARC-EXT@sun.com, pete@sorted.org, Nicolas.Williams@sun.com, Marcel.Telka@sun.com, Kyle.McDonald@bigbandnet.com, jek3@sun.com, gww@eng.sun.com, Darren.Reed@sun.com, barts@eng.sun.com Message-id: <45b9eb7c.qQxX5mFt5VxAhxyX%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200701240607.l0O67Z4O023171@marduk.eng.sun.com> <20070124061851.GB27682@eng.sun.com> <45B75FA2.1080504@sun.com> <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45B7DE7F.705@sun.com> <45B8DD89.8020309@BigBandNet.COM> <45B8E5F2.8030402@sorted.org> <20070125182741.GH12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45b92255.SyqzRrKkOs/PRkIC%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <17849.9403.952498.38547@gargle.gargle.HOWL> User-Agent: nail 11.22 3/20/05 Status: RO Content-Length: 1316 James Carlson wrote: > Joerg Schilling writes: > > Nicolas Williams wrote: > > > > > That's an argument for closing off /usr/bin. Everything should go into > > > a /usr/pkg/*/bin or /opt/*/bin or whatever, and every user is > > > responsible for maintaining a very long PATH or a lynk farm. > > > > IIRC, software not under BSDL has a hard way going into /usr/bin/ > > I don't think I understand why that should be. We already have > non-BSD things in /usr/bin. > > We even have GPL'd things in ON. Let me a bit more specific. I was talking about /usr/bin on e.g. FreeBSD On FreeBSD, you need to have a very good reason if you like to include a program that is less free (e.g. because it is GPLd) than the BSDL. The reason is that the basic OS should be free enough. The FreeBSD people like to be able to have a working system that does not depend on GPLd software for it's basic functionality. I believe that similar rules should apply to OpenSolaris. Jörg -- EMail:joerg@schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin js@cs.tu-berlin.de (uni) schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily From schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de Fri Jan 26 03:59:04 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0QBx3fS002664 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 03:59:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0QBwg2J010170; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 19:58:55 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCH00C035A3L700@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 03:58:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from sca-ea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.43.24]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCH00LDF5A3B5D0@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 03:58:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay13.sun.com (relay13.sun.com [217.140.40.54] (may be forged)) by sca-ea-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l0QBwoWs009966; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 03:58:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from mms13es.sun.com ([160.41.223.54] [160.41.223.54]) by relay13.sun.com with ESMTP; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 11:58:49 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay12.sun.com (relay12.sun.com [217.140.40.34]) by mms13es.sun.com with ESMTP; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 11:58:49 +0000 (Z) Received: from mailhub.fokus.fraunhofer.de ([193.174.154.14] [193.174.154.14]) by relay12.sun.com with ESMTP; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 11:58:49 +0000 (Z) Received: from burner.fokus.fraunhofer.de (burner [10.147.65.166]) by mailhub.fokus.fraunhofer.de (8.11.6p2/8.11.6) with ESMTP id l0QBwm902427; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 12:58:48 +0100 (MET) Received: (from jes@localhost) by burner.fokus.fraunhofer.de (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/Submit) id l0QBupLO012206; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 12:56:51 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 12:56:51 +0100 From: Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (Joerg Schilling) Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <45B92464.9020402@sun.com> Sender: schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de To: jek3@sun.com Cc: PSARC-EXT@sun.com, pete@sorted.org, Nicolas.Williams@sun.com, Marcel.Telka@sun.com, Kyle.McDonald@bigbandnet.com, gww@eng.sun.com, Darren.Reed@sun.com, barts@eng.sun.com Message-id: <45b9ec83.Fc+NtMYyy/aMV6Bm%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200701240607.l0O67Z4O023171@marduk.eng.sun.com> <20070124061851.GB27682@eng.sun.com> <45B75FA2.1080504@sun.com> <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45B7DE7F.705@sun.com> <45B8DD89.8020309@BigBandNet.COM> <45B8E5F2.8030402@sorted.org> <20070125182741.GH12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45b92255.SyqzRrKkOs/PRkIC%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <45B92464.9020402@sun.com> User-Agent: nail 11.22 3/20/05 Status: RO Content-Length: 1111 Joseph Kowalski wrote: > Correct me if I misunderstand you, but my mother (to use a previous > analogy) doesn't > care about the license. Even the developer of application on Solaris > doesn't care about > this licensing. Only we, the developers of OpenSolaris, care about this > (or others who > want to steal\h\h\h\h\hreuse our code). > > Who are we designing the system for? If some people like to crete an embedded system that is based on OpenSolaris, it may be important to be able to have a basic system that is purely based on "free enough" software like CDDLd software. In former times, Sun did not even allow the GNU toolchain to be used in order to compile Solaris. This was too much, but it still makes sense to have a working system that could be setup without GNU software. Jörg -- EMail:joerg@schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin js@cs.tu-berlin.de (uni) schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily From Darren.Moffat@Sun.COM Fri Jan 26 04:11:34 2007 Received: from sunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM (sunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.17]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0QCBYZH002717 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 04:11:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.11.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0QCBYj14544 for <@sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-EXT@sun.com>; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 05:11:34 -0700 (MST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCH00D295V9L200@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Fri, 26 Jan 2007 04:11:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com ([129.156.42.6]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCH00LUE5V5BFE0@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Fri, 26 Jan 2007 04:11:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from d1-emea-09.sun.com ([192.18.2.119]) by gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l0QCBTKZ000045 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 12:11:29 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-emea-09.sun.com by d1-emea-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JCH00C015TGY400@d1-emea-09.sun.com> (original mail from Darren.Moffat@Sun.COM) for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Fri, 26 Jan 2007 12:11:29 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [192.168.73.102] (nessieroo.force9.co.uk [81.174.224.49]) by d1-emea-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JCH00J7T5V45H10@d1-emea-09.sun.com> for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Fri, 26 Jan 2007 12:11:29 +0000 (GMT) Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 12:11:28 +0000 From: Darren J Moffat Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <45b9dd79.cecuxDWGNpb4Cgnj%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> Sender: Darren.Moffat@Sun.COM To: PSARC-EXT@Sun.COM Message-id: <45B9EFF0.6070204@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200701240607.l0O67Z4O023171@marduk.eng.sun.com> <20070124061851.GB27682@eng.sun.com> <45B75FA2.1080504@sun.com> <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45b78b19.UuA5rTidJOnO3/65%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169657347.2419.13.camel@tortuga> <45B78F14.6000003@Sun.COM> <17847.37781.741472.969057@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20070124183623.GB17316@eng.sun.com> <17847.51094.526008.806655@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <45B7C8E0.9040808@BigBandNet.COM> <1169673362.1569.62.camel@loghost> <45B7D15E.6070708@BigBandNet.COM> <1169716337.4335.3.camel@tortuga> <45B8E049.6090701@BigBandNet.COM> <45b91c97.W5q7W46jJC8nxdfW%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <45B91F4D.9020107@sun.com> <45b9dd79.cecuxDWGNpb4Cgnj%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.8 (X11/20061127) Status: RO Content-Length: 1941 There as a been an overwhelming amount of offtopic and aside discussion on this thread, and it is getting to the point it is totally out of control and I'm considering derailing from being a fast-track and requesting standard review with opinion of the case on that ground alone (I'm not there yet but I'm close) I'd really like to see an update from the project team at this point, on what there feelings are based on the relevant architectural comments that happen been in the discussion. Does the original proposal stand, if not what is the new proposal ? I'd also like to understand if this is really an OpenSolaris case or a Solaris case. Before you all jump on me about open review let me explain why I think there could be a difference here. I believe the review should be open regardless. This case appears to me to be about setting the user environment for a given distribution, Sun's Solaris based on the constraints that Sun's Solaris distribution has historically and what Sun believes its OpenSolaris distribution should look like. Consider Nexenta, would /usr/gnu even make sense in that world ? Maybe it does maybe it doesn't. Now consider all the other OpenSolaris based distributions does it make sense for them ? Do the others have the similar /usr/xpg?/ /usr/ucb/ that Solaris does ? If not why not ? If they do is it because of a desire for binary compatibility with Sun's distribution or because they believe in multiple alternate environments (note the subtle distinction). For me if we are considering this to be an OpenSolaris architecture case then I want to hear from each of the existing distributions on wither or not they consider this case architecturally significant for them. Note I'm NOT asking for a "vote or opinion" from them only if they consider this case something that impacts all OpenSolaris distributions, and their distro in particular. -- Darren J Moffat From Darren.Moffat@Sun.COM Fri Jan 26 04:13:42 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0QCDehe002754 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 04:13:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0QCDaKo013282; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 20:13:37 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCH00D015YOPO00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 04:13:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com ([129.156.42.5]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCH00L5J5YBB5E0@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 04:13:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from d1-emea-09.sun.com (d1-emea-09.sun.com [192.18.2.119]) by gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l0QCDNXx007114; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 12:13:23 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-emea-09.sun.com by d1-emea-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JCH00F015XH1J00@d1-emea-09.sun.com> (original mail from Darren.Moffat@Sun.COM); Fri, 26 Jan 2007 12:13:23 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [192.168.73.102] (nessieroo.force9.co.uk [81.174.224.49]) by d1-emea-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JCH00J855Y95H10@d1-emea-09.sun.com>; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 12:13:22 +0000 (GMT) Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 12:13:21 +0000 From: Darren J Moffat Subject: OFF TOPIC Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <45b9ec83.Fc+NtMYyy/aMV6Bm%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> Sender: Darren.Moffat@Sun.COM To: Joerg Schilling Cc: jek3@Sun.COM, PSARC-EXT@Sun.COM, pete@sorted.org, Nicolas.Williams@Sun.COM, Marcel.Telka@Sun.COM, Kyle.McDonald@bigbandnet.com, gww@eng.sun.com, Darren.Reed@Sun.COM, barts@eng.sun.com Message-id: <45B9F061.50600@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200701240607.l0O67Z4O023171@marduk.eng.sun.com> <20070124061851.GB27682@eng.sun.com> <45B75FA2.1080504@sun.com> <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45B7DE7F.705@sun.com> <45B8DD89.8020309@BigBandNet.COM> <45B8E5F2.8030402@sorted.org> <20070125182741.GH12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45b92255.SyqzRrKkOs/PRkIC%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <45B92464.9020402@sun.com> <45b9ec83.Fc+NtMYyy/aMV6Bm%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.8 (X11/20061127) Status: RO Content-Length: 1136 Joerg Schilling wrote: > Joseph Kowalski wrote: > >> Correct me if I misunderstand you, but my mother (to use a previous >> analogy) doesn't >> care about the license. Even the developer of application on Solaris >> doesn't care about >> this licensing. Only we, the developers of OpenSolaris, care about this >> (or others who >> want to steal\h\h\h\h\hreuse our code). >> >> Who are we designing the system for? > > If some people like to crete an embedded system that is based on OpenSolaris, > it may be important to be able to have a basic system that is purely based > on "free enough" software like CDDLd software. > > In former times, Sun did not even allow the GNU toolchain to be used in order > to compile Solaris. This was too much, but it still makes sense to have a > working system that could be setup without GNU software. I don't believe "allow" is the correct word here at all. IIRC it was more about "didn't work with GNU tools and was only tested with our compiler". I don't believe Sun ever made a statement that you must not use the GNU tools to build Solaris. -- Darren J Moffat From carlsonj@phorcys.east.sun.com Fri Jan 26 05:46:37 2007 Received: from sunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM (sunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.17]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0QDkbq1004324 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 05:46:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.11.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0QDkVj21154; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 06:46:31 -0700 (MST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCH0072FA9HM900@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 05:46:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com ([129.148.174.143]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCH001Z8A9GUGB0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 05:46:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l0QDkRli006149; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 08:46:27 -0500 (EST) Received: (from carlsonj@localhost) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/Submit) id l0QDkRRh006146; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 08:46:27 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 08:46:27 -0500 From: James Carlson Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <45b9eb7c.qQxX5mFt5VxAhxyX%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> To: Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (Joerg Schilling) Cc: PSARC-EXT@sun.com, pete@sorted.org, Nicolas.Williams@sun.com, Marcel.Telka@sun.com, Kyle.McDonald@bigbandnet.com, jek3@sun.com, gww@eng.sun.com, Darren.Reed@sun.com, barts@eng.sun.com Message-id: <17850.1587.194099.242017@gargle.gargle.HOWL> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: VM 7.01 under Emacs 21.3.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200701240607.l0O67Z4O023171@marduk.eng.sun.com> <20070124061851.GB27682@eng.sun.com> <45B75FA2.1080504@sun.com> <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45B7DE7F.705@sun.com> <45B8DD89.8020309@BigBandNet.COM> <45B8E5F2.8030402@sorted.org> <20070125182741.GH12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45b92255.SyqzRrKkOs/PRkIC%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <17849.9403.952498.38547@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <45b9eb7c.qQxX5mFt5VxAhxyX%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> Status: RO Content-Length: 1366 Joerg Schilling writes: > On FreeBSD, you need to have a very good reason if you like to include > a program that is less free (e.g. because it is GPLd) than the BSDL. > The reason is that the basic OS should be free enough. The FreeBSD > people like to be able to have a working system that does not depend > on GPLd software for it's basic functionality. > > I believe that similar rules should apply to OpenSolaris. Whether Open Solaris is to develop the same sort of licensing fetish as some other open source project is, I believe, a matter for the CAB to determine, not an architectural matter. In terms of architecture, I don't necessarily care where the software came from. I care what stability it has, how it fits with the rest of the system, and whether other projects can use it for its intended purposes. The only place where licensing might come in is when the "use for intended purposes" is at odds with the licensing scheme. Absent that, it doesn't seem architectural in nature. Trying to develop some sort of General Jack D. Ripper "purity of essence" scheme for /usr/bin isn't something I think the ARC ought to do. -- James Carlson, Solaris Networking Sun Microsystems / 1 Network Drive 71.232W Vox +1 781 442 2084 MS UBUR02-212 / Burlington MA 01803-2757 42.496N Fax +1 781 442 1677 From kyle.mcdonald@bigbandnet.com Fri Jan 26 06:15:53 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0QEFqkx004796 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 06:15:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0QEFVlX017558; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 14:15:45 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCH00C07BM6MS00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 06:15:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com ([192.18.98.34]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCH0096BBM5MM10@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 06:15:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay2.sun.com (relay2.sun.com [150.143.103.24] (may be forged)) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l0QDk5l4011837; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 07:15:40 -0700 (MST) Received: from mms0des.sun.com ([150.143.104.234] [150.143.104.234]) by relay2.sun.com with ESMTP; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 14:15:17 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay4.sun.com (relay4.sun.com [150.143.103.74]) by mms0des.sun.com with ESMTP; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 14:15:17 +0000 (Z) Received: from exprod8og51.obsmtp.com ([64.18.3.84] [64.18.3.84]) by relay4.sun.com; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 14:15:17 +0000 (Z) Received: from source ([65.126.230.68]) by exprod8ob51.obsmtp.com ([64.18.7.12]) with SMTP; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 06:13:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([10.30.8.236]) by wsb-srvr-02.bigbandnet.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Fri, 26 Jan 2007 09:13:31 -0500 Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 09:13:32 -0500 From: Kyle McDonald Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <45B929EE.6090101@Sun.Com> To: John Plocher Cc: Joseph Kowalski , Nicolas Williams , barts@eng.sun.com, gww@eng.sun.com, Joerg Schilling , PSARC-EXT@sun.com, Marcel Telka , Darren.Reed@sun.com Message-id: <45BA0C8C.2040600@BigBandNet.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45B7DE7F.705@sun.com> <45B8DD89.8020309@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125170857.GZ12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8E642.3090006@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125173913.GC12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8F1B3.7080302@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125182042.GG12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8F77D.2060707@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125184202.GJ12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8FDA2.8040000@BigBandNet.COM> <45B90BF4.5020806@Sun.Com> <45B90E41.7030204@BigBandNet.COM> <45B91F15.2070804@Sun.Com> <45B92138.6040307@sun.com> <45B929EE.6090101@Sun.Com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Jan 2007 14:13:31.0564 (UTC) FILETIME=[287C46C0:01C74154] Status: RO Content-Length: 2410 John Plocher wrote: > > The distributed world at Sun seems to be able to depend on /usr/dist > (an NFS > filesystem that has 20Gb of shared executables) while at the same time > allowing > individual servers/workstations the ability to override the bits they > provide. > Interesting you bring up the Sun internal situation. I know from experience that most users in the know avoid /usr/dist if they can help it. It's OSS tends to be more out of date than Solaris. However, /pkg is a different story. While it many not be used by the majority of Sun, I would expect that /pkg is used by a very vocal minority. Can you imagine the feedback you'll get inside of sun when people are forced to move /pkg/gnu/bin in front of /usr/bin in order to continue to get the latest versions of the GNU tools from /pkg (which when I used it was maintained very well and almost always up to date.) Here's another argument. We know that for the base UNIX tools, people are supposed to pick from /usr/bin, /usr/ucb, /usr/xpg4, etc. to select their choice of environment. I think this mechanism is something that most want to keep. If, in order to get newer versions of the GNU tools than solaris has, I'm forced to put my GNU path ahead of /usr/bin (whether mine is local or not) then you've forced me to either: 1) Use the GNU environment - since the conflicitng tools installed in my GNU directory will override the Solaris ones in /usr/bin. (Won't be as big a problem if I use /usr/ucb, or one of the others.) 2) Split out the conflicting GNU tools from my 1 GNU directory, into 2 GNU directories, and maintain and update that as things are moved into /usr/bin on Solaris. Neither of those sound that good to me either. -Kyle > Another goal here is what Roy said: > > > As a developer, I really don't care where these tools are provided > > as long as it is possible to find them on the path and, once found, > > the tools are exactly as distributed by the tool author. > > Sun's Marketing doesn't really care about the technical issues around > /usr/bin and /usr/gnu; they are more interested in the default user > experience. The OSS bits need to be delivered by default and work by > default. In their mind, a new user on Solaris *should* be able to log > in, download a project off of Sourceforge, type ./configure; make; > make install, and have it all just work. > > -John > > > > From schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de Fri Jan 26 06:16:22 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0QEGLjq004813 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 06:16:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0QEG86b014010; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 22:16:10 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCH00C05BMUNL00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 06:16:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwkea-mail-4.sun.com ([192.18.42.26]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCH009Q2BMPMH00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 06:16:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay2.sun.com (relay2.sun.com [150.143.103.24] (may be forged)) by nwkea-mail-4.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l0QEBuHc025080; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 06:16:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from mms0ees.sun.com ([150.143.104.244] [150.143.104.244]) by relay2.sun.com with ESMTP; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 14:15:58 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay4.sun.com (relay4.sun.com [150.143.103.74]) by mms0ees.sun.com with ESMTP; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 14:15:57 +0000 (Z) Received: from mailhub.fokus.fraunhofer.de ([193.174.154.14] [193.174.154.14]) by relay4.sun.com with ESMTP; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 14:15:57 +0000 (Z) Received: from burner.fokus.fraunhofer.de (burner [10.147.65.166]) by mailhub.fokus.fraunhofer.de (8.11.6p2/8.11.6) with ESMTP id l0QEFt916447; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 15:15:55 +0100 (MET) Received: (from jes@localhost) by burner.fokus.fraunhofer.de (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/Submit) id l0QEDv83012336; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 15:13:57 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 15:13:57 +0100 From: Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (Joerg Schilling) Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <17850.1587.194099.242017@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Sender: schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de To: james.d.carlson@sun.com Cc: PSARC-EXT@sun.com, pete@sorted.org, Nicolas.Williams@sun.com, Marcel.Telka@sun.com, Kyle.McDonald@bigbandnet.com, jek3@sun.com, gww@eng.sun.com, Darren.Reed@sun.com, barts@eng.sun.com Message-id: <45ba0ca5.j+pSZ7LxQjwjf4ii%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200701240607.l0O67Z4O023171@marduk.eng.sun.com> <20070124061851.GB27682@eng.sun.com> <45B75FA2.1080504@sun.com> <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45B7DE7F.705@sun.com> <45B8DD89.8020309@BigBandNet.COM> <45B8E5F2.8030402@sorted.org> <20070125182741.GH12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45b92255.SyqzRrKkOs/PRkIC%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <17849.9403.952498.38547@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <45b9eb7c.qQxX5mFt5VxAhxyX%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <17850.1587.194099.242017@gargle.gargle.HOWL> User-Agent: nail 11.22 3/20/05 Status: RO Content-Length: 1263 James Carlson wrote: > Joerg Schilling writes: > > On FreeBSD, you need to have a very good reason if you like to include > > a program that is less free (e.g. because it is GPLd) than the BSDL. > > The reason is that the basic OS should be free enough. The FreeBSD > > people like to be able to have a working system that does not depend > > on GPLd software for it's basic functionality. > > > > I believe that similar rules should apply to OpenSolaris. > > Whether Open Solaris is to develop the same sort of licensing fetish > as some other open source project is, I believe, a matter for the CAB > to determine, not an architectural matter. For the FreeBSD people, this is no fetish but the base for granting that you are able to e.g. an embedded device could be created without the need to publish all sources. The basic idea behind this FreeBSD decision should be discussed for OpenSolaris also before it would be too late. Jörg -- EMail:joerg@schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin js@cs.tu-berlin.de (uni) schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily From carlsonj@phorcys.east.sun.com Fri Jan 26 06:24:58 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0QEOuuT004869 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 06:24:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0QEOZUa016153; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 22:24:48 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCH00D07C18SY00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 06:24:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com ([129.148.174.143]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCH009GDC15M510@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 06:24:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l0QEOeQt006404; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 09:24:40 -0500 (EST) Received: (from carlsonj@localhost) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/Submit) id l0QEOeO6006401; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 09:24:40 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 09:24:40 -0500 From: James Carlson Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <45ba0ca5.j+pSZ7LxQjwjf4ii%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> To: Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (Joerg Schilling) Cc: PSARC-EXT@sun.com, pete@sorted.org, Nicolas.Williams@sun.com, Marcel.Telka@sun.com, Kyle.McDonald@bigbandnet.com, jek3@sun.com, gww@eng.sun.com, Darren.Reed@sun.com, barts@eng.sun.com Message-id: <17850.3880.272391.483269@gargle.gargle.HOWL> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: VM 7.01 under Emacs 21.3.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200701240607.l0O67Z4O023171@marduk.eng.sun.com> <20070124061851.GB27682@eng.sun.com> <45B75FA2.1080504@sun.com> <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45B7DE7F.705@sun.com> <45B8DD89.8020309@BigBandNet.COM> <45B8E5F2.8030402@sorted.org> <20070125182741.GH12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45b92255.SyqzRrKkOs/PRkIC%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <17849.9403.952498.38547@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <45b9eb7c.qQxX5mFt5VxAhxyX%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <17850.1587.194099.242017@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <45ba0ca5.j+pSZ7LxQjwjf4ii%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> Status: RO Content-Length: 1161 Joerg Schilling writes: > > Whether Open Solaris is to develop the same sort of licensing fetish > > as some other open source project is, I believe, a matter for the CAB > > to determine, not an architectural matter. > > For the FreeBSD people, this is no fetish but the base for granting that > you are able to e.g. an embedded device could be created without the need > to publish all sources. The choice of what you include (and why) is at least partly a distribution question. I agree with considering licenses and the force they apply to future projects, but only in the context of architecture: that is, if the licenses push other projects off the rails, then we have a problem. > The basic idea behind this FreeBSD decision should be discussed for OpenSolaris > also before it would be too late. I agree, but please take it up with the CAB, not the ARC. I don't see how the ARC could make such a sweeping policy decision. -- James Carlson, Solaris Networking Sun Microsystems / 1 Network Drive 71.232W Vox +1 781 442 2084 MS UBUR02-212 / Burlington MA 01803-2757 42.496N Fax +1 781 442 1677 From kyle.mcdonald@bigbandnet.com Fri Jan 26 06:45:30 2007 Received: from sunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM (sunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.17]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0QEjUJq004952 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 06:45:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.11.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0QEjOj29540; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 07:45:24 -0700 (MST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCH00H07CZMS000@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 06:45:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com ([192.18.98.34]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCH009HOCZMMH20@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 06:45:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay2.sun.com (relay2.sun.com [150.143.103.24] (may be forged)) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l0QDmwZH014442; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 07:45:21 -0700 (MST) Received: from mms0bes.sun.com ([150.143.104.214] [150.143.104.214]) by relay2.sun.com with ESMTP; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 14:45:21 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay2.sun.com (relay2.sun.com [150.143.103.24]) by mms0bes.sun.com with ESMTP; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 14:45:18 +0000 (Z) Received: from exprod8og51.obsmtp.com ([64.18.3.84] [64.18.3.84]) by relay2.sun.com; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 14:43:41 +0000 (Z) Received: from source ([65.126.230.68]) by exprod8ob51.obsmtp.com ([64.18.7.12]) with SMTP; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 06:39:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([10.30.8.236]) by wsb-srvr-02.bigbandnet.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Fri, 26 Jan 2007 09:39:37 -0500 Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 09:39:38 -0500 From: Kyle McDonald Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <45B92FF5.9010105@sun.com> To: Joseph Kowalski Cc: John Plocher , Nicolas Williams , barts@eng.sun.com, gww@eng.sun.com, Joerg Schilling , PSARC-EXT@sun.com, Marcel Telka , Darren.Reed@sun.com Message-id: <45BA12AA.9020708@BigBandNet.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45B7DE7F.705@sun.com> <45B8DD89.8020309@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125170857.GZ12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8E642.3090006@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125173913.GC12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8F1B3.7080302@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125182042.GG12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8F77D.2060707@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125184202.GJ12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8FDA2.8040000@BigBandNet.COM> <45B90BF4.5020806@Sun.Com> <45B90E41.7030204@BigBandNet.COM> <45B91F15.2070804@Sun.Com> <45B92138.6040307@sun.com> <45B929EE.6090101@Sun.Com> <45B92FF5.9010105@sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Jan 2007 14:39:37.0464 (UTC) FILETIME=[CDD5A780:01C74157] Status: RO Content-Length: 3242 Joseph Kowalski wrote: > John Plocher wrote: >> The distributed world at Sun seems to be able to depend on /usr/dist >> (an NFS >> filesystem that has 20Gb of shared executables) while at the same >> time allowing >> individual servers/workstations the ability to override the bits they >> provide. > Think in terms of rlogin and your home directory following you. On one > system the links exist, on another they do not. Ouch! This is a job for whoever sets up the set of machines that share things like home dirs. This isn't Solaris's problem. If Home Dirs are shared then an effort has to be made by the admins to make things work as much as possible on all the machines they are shared to. > This seems to be an argument for /usr/bin. Not much dust in /usr/bin. >> Another goal here is what Roy said: >> >> > As a developer, I really don't care where these tools are provided >> > as long as it is possible to find them on the path and, once found, >> > the tools are exactly as distributed by the tool author. >> >> Sun's Marketing doesn't really care about the technical issues around >> /usr/bin and /usr/gnu; they are more interested in the default user >> experience. The OSS bits need to be delivered by default and work by >> default. In their mind, a new user on Solaris *should* be able to log >> in, download a project off of Sourceforge, type ./configure; make; >> make install, and have it all just work. I'm still unclear why, setting PATH in someplace like /etc/default/login to "/usr/bin:/usr/gnu/bin" wouldn't make "./configure;make;make install" just work? One suggestion I've heard is that it's because some dot files already are setup where PATH is explictly assigned with out referenceing the existing value. That doesn't seem to be a problem for the users that we're talking about attracting to Solaris, and making sure have a good OOB experience. The new users aren't going to have dot-files - or if they do bring something from linux, I'm not sure how we can ever hope to make those dotfiles 'just-work' Existing Solaris users, are going to both have some knowledge of how things are spread out in Solaris, *and* they won't be used to having these tools already. They wouldn't balk (I would think) at having to add /usr/gnu/bin to their PATH. > Wouldn't that put it into /usr/bin, as with on all Linux distros? > > This isn't even an argument to put duplicates of everything into the > /usr/gnu/bin directory. The senario of downloading from sourceforge > and ending up with a newer copy of everything in /usr/gnu, leaving > the copies in /usr/bin untouched seems like the best possible result > to me. You've completely updated /usr/gnu and people who have > it in there paths and left the system versions in /usr/bin unchanged. > Only now in order to get the new version of make in /usr/gnu, you have to accept the gnu 'ls' also. To avoid this you'd have to also create a /usr/solaris/bin that has links to all the solaris environment conflicting programs, so that a user could do /usr/solaris/bin:/usr/gnu/bin:/usr/bin: in their PATH. Is that where we want to go? By lumping more things in together you force users to take the whole thing, or override the whole thing. -Kyle From kyle.mcdonald@bigbandnet.com Fri Jan 26 06:47:36 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0QElZcV004996 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 06:47:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0QElK5t022269; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 22:47:24 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCH00903D2X7X00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 07:47:21 -0700 (MST) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com ([192.18.98.36]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCH0051YD2W1020@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 07:47:21 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay2.sun.com (relay2.sun.com [150.143.103.24] (may be forged)) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l0QEDCX9024794; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 07:47:19 -0700 (MST) Received: from mms0aes.sun.com ([150.143.104.194] [150.143.104.194]) by relay2.sun.com with ESMTP; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 14:47:16 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay3.sun.com (relay3.sun.com [150.143.103.54]) by mms0aes.sun.com with ESMTP; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 14:47:16 +0000 (Z) Received: from exprod8og57.obsmtp.com ([64.18.3.96] [64.18.3.96]) by relay3.sun.com; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 14:47:16 +0000 (Z) Received: from source ([65.126.230.68]) by exprod8ob57.obsmtp.com ([64.18.7.12]) with SMTP; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 06:45:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([10.30.8.236]) by wsb-srvr-02.bigbandnet.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Fri, 26 Jan 2007 09:43:03 -0500 Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 09:43:05 -0500 From: Kyle McDonald Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <45B933A3.9070809@sun.com> To: Joseph Kowalski Cc: Joerg Schilling , james.d.carlson@sun.com, PSARC-EXT@sun.com, pete@sorted.org, Nicolas.Williams@sun.com, Marcel.Telka@sun.com, gww@eng.sun.com, Darren.Reed@sun.com, barts@eng.sun.com Message-id: <45BA1379.90608@BigBandNet.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200701240607.l0O67Z4O023171@marduk.eng.sun.com> <20070124061851.GB27682@eng.sun.com> <45B75FA2.1080504@sun.com> <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45B7DE7F.705@sun.com> <45B8DD89.8020309@BigBandNet.COM> <45B8E5F2.8030402@sorted.org> <20070125182741.GH12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45b92255.SyqzRrKkOs/PRkIC%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <17849.9403.952498.38547@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <45b9264f.RSHgM9nsokcMAhkh%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <45B92B48.7050104@sun.com> <45B92F2D.7020903@BigBandNet.COM> <45B933A3.9070809@sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Jan 2007 14:43:03.0903 (UTC) FILETIME=[48E1BEF0:01C74158] Status: RO Content-Length: 1145 Joseph Kowalski wrote: > Kyle McDonald wrote: >> Joseph Kowalski wrote: >>> >>> That all said, what problems (other than asthetics) does having >>> gnome in >>> /usr/bin cause? A properly constructed path should let you interpose >>> another. >>> >> Really only if you are wililng to install it local to the machine. >> >> Isn't the network the computer? ;) >> >> -Kyle > I don't understand. Is this to be robust in the face of a failed NFS > server? We offer > many mechanisms to address that problem, the simplest of which is > replicated servers. > I think, it's generally a bad idea to put a network path first in your PATH no matter how robust you make the network services. I also think it's bad form for many reasons to *not* put /usr/bin (or your preferred env.) first in your path. There are security reasons, at least for this. Lastly, I don't think pushing people to invest in replicated or HA NFS services is the right solution. If someone is willing to accept the risks of a single NFS server for access to gcc, then they shouldn't have to invest in that stuff just to keep ls, cp, and rm working. -Kyle > - jek3 From kyle.mcdonald@bigbandnet.com Fri Jan 26 06:49:21 2007 Received: from sunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM (sunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.17]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0QEnLWI005017 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 06:49:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.11.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0QEnGj03452; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 07:49:16 -0700 (MST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCH00207D63WN00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 06:49:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwkea-mail-4.sun.com ([192.18.42.26]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCH00IOWD62ZA30@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 06:49:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay12.sun.com (relay12.sun.com [217.140.40.34] (may be forged)) by nwkea-mail-4.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l0QEnEZu018719; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 06:49:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from mms12es.sun.com ([160.41.223.34] [160.41.223.34]) by relay12.sun.com with ESMTP; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 14:49:13 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay11.sun.com (relay11.sun.com [217.140.40.14]) by mms12es.sun.com with ESMTP; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 14:49:13 +0000 (Z) Received: from exprod8og57.obsmtp.com ([64.18.3.96] [64.18.3.96]) by relay11.sun.com; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 14:49:12 +0000 (Z) Received: from source ([65.126.230.68]) by exprod8ob57.obsmtp.com ([64.18.7.12]) with SMTP; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 06:45:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([10.30.8.236]) by wsb-srvr-02.bigbandnet.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Fri, 26 Jan 2007 09:45:45 -0500 Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 09:45:46 -0500 From: Kyle McDonald Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <45B92138.6040307@sun.com> To: Joseph Kowalski Cc: John Plocher , Nicolas Williams , barts@eng.sun.com, gww@eng.sun.com, Joerg Schilling , PSARC-EXT@sun.com, Marcel Telka , Darren.Reed@sun.com Message-id: <45BA141A.7000807@BigBandNet.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45B7DE7F.705@sun.com> <45B8DD89.8020309@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125170857.GZ12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8E642.3090006@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125173913.GC12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8F1B3.7080302@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125182042.GG12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8F77D.2060707@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125184202.GJ12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8FDA2.8040000@BigBandNet.COM> <45B90BF4.5020806@Sun.Com> <45B90E41.7030204@BigBandNet.COM> <45B91F15.2070804@Sun.Com> <45B92138.6040307@sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Jan 2007 14:45:45.0232 (UTC) FILETIME=[A90A9900:01C74158] Status: RO Content-Length: 2528 Joseph Kowalski wrote: > > I'm assuming the "default link" packages would be installed by default > - our marketing would > demand that. > > This implies to me, that all this proposal would buy you is the > ability to go out of your way to > construct a system where the various components could be selected by > path without a fall through > to /usr/bin. In a distributed computing world, you couldn't depend > upon this. How many people > would use this? Well, Kyle seems to be one. There are undoubtedly > others, but how many? > > I don't think the gain is worth the effort. Your mileage may vary. > Like I wrote in another post. I think everyone in sun who actively uses /pkg will be interested in this capability no matter how it's implemented. I"ve always loved how flexible solaris is. Generally, while sometimes it's alot of work to do what I want with it, there's never been a case where solaris prevented me from doing it. It doesn't seem to em to be a good idea to add this now. -Kyle > - jek3 > > > John Plocher wrote: >> Kyle McDonald wrote: >>> John Plocher wrote: >>>> If you *were* able to do the above (as an admin), would you still have >>>> the same issues with this proposal? >>>> >>> No, If that were true, I could live with this proposal. I would at >>> least have the ability to do what I want. >> >> >> So, let me toss out a proposal: >> >> OSS stuff (purposely undefined here :-) shall install into >> somewhere other than /usr/bin. The various directories >> discussed here (/usr/sfw, /usr/gnu, /opt/wherever) are all >> potential locations; the exact location for a particular >> instance of "OSS Stuff" is intentionally not specified here. >> >> ALL package dependencies are required to be on the above >> packages; all PATH dependencies are required to be on the >> above install locations. >> >> There shall also exist a "symlink convenience package" >> for each "OSS Stuff" that (following the "no conflict" rules >> mentioned elsewhere in this thread) makes symlinks in >> /usr/bin. NO components may depend on the existence of >> these packages or require their installation - they are >> intended for use by human users only, and are expected >> to be installed (or not) at the sole discretion of the >> customer. >> >> This proposal says nothing about whether the Solaris Install >> process should default to installing or not installing these >> convenience symlink packages. >> >> -John > From alan.coopersmith@sun.com Fri Jan 26 07:30:49 2007 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0QFUnDm005885 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 07:30:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0QFUn6L022002; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 07:30:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCH00201F38D800@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 07:30:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from sfbaymail1sca.SFBay.Sun.COM ([129.145.154.35]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCH009T0F38MH50@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 07:30:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.0.101] (vpn-129-150-26-165.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.26.165]) by sfbaymail1sca.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0QFUUQ9012414; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 07:30:32 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 07:29:26 -0800 From: Alan Coopersmith Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <45B92B48.7050104@sun.com> To: Joseph Kowalski Cc: Joerg Schilling , James.D.Carlson@sun.com, PSARC-EXT@sun.com, pete@sorted.org, Nicolas.Williams@sun.com, Marcel.Telka@sun.com, Kyle.McDonald@bigbandnet.com, gww@eng.sun.com, Darren.Reed@sun.com, barts@eng.sun.com Message-id: <45BA1E56.7060907@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200701240607.l0O67Z4O023171@marduk.eng.sun.com> <20070124061851.GB27682@eng.sun.com> <45B75FA2.1080504@sun.com> <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45B7DE7F.705@sun.com> <45B8DD89.8020309@BigBandNet.COM> <45B8E5F2.8030402@sorted.org> <20070125182741.GH12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45b92255.SyqzRrKkOs/PRkIC%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <17849.9403.952498.38547@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <45b9264f.RSHgM9nsokcMAhkh%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <45B92B48.7050104@sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (X11/20060602) Status: RO Content-Length: 568 Joseph Kowalski wrote: > I personally think we are being too compatibility concerned by not updating > the S10 gnome in an S10 Update. The reality might be that this is more > of a > resource issue, rather than a compatibility issue. Not just might be - very much is. The discussions around doing a GNOME update for S10 usually end around "but then we'd have to pull many of the people off the Nevada GNOME work, and it would fall behind instead." -- -Alan Coopersmith- alan.coopersmith@sun.com Sun Microsystems, Inc. - X Window System Engineering From nw141292@binky.Central.Sun.COM Fri Jan 26 08:37:47 2007 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0QGbl3A008686 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 08:37:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0QGbga3011234; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 08:37:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCH00B0DI6U6I00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 08:37:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM ([129.153.128.104]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCH00ICJI6TZA90@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 08:37:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0QGbEf3004718; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 10:37:14 -0600 (CST) Received: (from nw141292@localhost) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/Submit) id l0QGbD5X004717; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 10:37:13 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 10:37:13 -0600 From: Nicolas Williams Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <45b9d0a0.v1vbA54+1Qs8vY48%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> To: Joerg Schilling Cc: jek3@sun.com, PSARC-EXT@sun.com, Marcel.Telka@sun.com, Kyle.McDonald@bigbandnet.com, gww@eng.sun.com, Darren.Reed@sun.com, barts@eng.sun.com Message-id: <20070126163712.GW12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <45B75FA2.1080504@sun.com> <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45B7DE7F.705@sun.com> <45B8DD89.8020309@BigBandNet.COM> <17848.58989.858589.51932@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <45B8E900.3080005@BigBandNet.COM> <45B91001.2010001@sun.com> <20070125202341.GP12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45b9d0a0.v1vbA54+1Qs8vY48%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.7i Status: RO Content-Length: 1701 On Fri, Jan 26, 2007 at 10:57:52AM +0100, Joerg Schilling wrote: > Nicolas Williams wrote: > > I lied. One more off-topic post: a psetenv(1) proc util might be a nice > > way to deal with PATH management in a shell-neutral, dot-file avoiding > > way. > > How do you like to implement this and correctly handle the memory allocation > in the other process? The proc tools tend to work by using something called an "agent thread" to execute code in the victim process. The execution environment of agent thread code is very, very, very barebones: there's no linker, no loader, no allocator, nothing, and you have to download the code to run to the agent thread and such code usually just makes system calls (with all other threads in that process stopped). All this is so that the proc tool can run code in the victim without having to trust any code in the victim's address space, which is very important from a security point of view. The most obvious way to make psetenv(1) work would require enhancing the agent thread environment so that for _some_ tasks (where security is not an issue, and I think modifying the victim's environ is one such task) one could load code and link it with the application's link map list. I can think of other options. E.g., treating PATH as very special and using a system call to track its value (putenv(3C)/getenv(3C) would know what to do and the usual proc tool agent thread scheme would work just fine). (BTW, a special rtld for agent threads would make it a lot easier to write proc tools too, but wouldn't help in this case since modifying the victim's environ kinda requires being linked with the victim's libc.) Nico -- From casper@holland.sun.com Fri Jan 26 09:10:08 2007 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0QHA8lh009860 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 09:10:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0QHA4in011177; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 09:10:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCH00H1FJOVJ900@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 09:10:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from dm-holland-02.uk.sun.com ([129.156.101.225]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCH0094YJOSM5C0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 09:10:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from vaticaan.holland.sun.com (vaticaan.Holland.Sun.COM [129.159.211.1]) by dm-holland-02.uk.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0QH9v3h028403; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 17:09:57 +0000 (GMT) Received: from holland (casper@room101 [129.159.201.52]) by vaticaan.holland.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l0QH9uH7012631; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 18:09:56 +0100 (MET) Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 18:09:56 +0100 From: Casper.Dik@sun.com Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <20070126163712.GW12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> Sender: casper@holland.sun.com To: Nicolas Williams Cc: Joerg Schilling , jek3@sun.com, PSARC-EXT@sun.com, Marcel.Telka@sun.com, Kyle.McDonald@bigbandnet.com, gww@eng.sun.com, Darren.Reed@sun.com, barts@eng.sun.com Message-id: <200701261709.l0QH9uH7012631@vaticaan.holland.sun.com> Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <45B75FA2.1080504@sun.com> <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45B7DE7F.705@sun.com> <45B8DD89.8020309@BigBandNet.COM> <17848.58989.858589.51932@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <45B8E900.3080005@BigBandNet.COM> <45B91001.2010001@sun.com> <20070125202341.GP12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45b9d0a0.v1vbA54+1Qs8vY48%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <20070126163712.GW12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> Status: RO Content-Length: 3509 >The proc tools tend to work by using something called an "agent thread" >to execute code in the victim process. The execution environment of >agent thread code is very, very, very barebones: there's no linker, no >loader, no allocator, nothing, and you have to download the code to run >to the agent thread and such code usually just makes system calls (with >all other threads in that process stopped). All this is so that the >proc tool can run code in the victim without having to trust any code in >the victim's address space, which is very important from a security >point of view. I hadn't looked at the security issue of the agent thread from that perspective; I find the whole "agent thread" a bug, not a feature. The agent thread was fine in the time of uid 0 but with privileges it no longer works so well. Typically, the agent thread is used in the following manner: - stop lwps - bump privileges/effective uid to 0 [NOTE: this no longer works with the limit set] - insert agent thread. - run it - remove privileges - start lwps again Clearly, there is plenty of room for serious issues here, including what Nicolas says: the agent thread being at the mercy of the context. But the basic flaw is that in order to perform the agent thread insertion your process needs to "dominate" the target process. And then it becomes clear why the mechanism is flawed: - the priocntl(2) system call works on any process so all you need is a restricted set of privileges to change any process' priority - the setrctl() system call works on the current process only; in order to affect other processes we need to use an agent thread. Potentially, we need all privileges if we want to be able to affect any odd process I maintain that the mechanism is broken and that we should not insert agent threads; rather, we should defined proper mechanisms to set parameters on other processes; we should pick the one we like best from the current mechanisms and, going forward, only allow new mechanisms to conform to that standard. To me, that means no more agent lwps. (Current mechanisms are: writes to /proc//ctl (ppriv, pcred), system interfaces (priocntl()) or agent lwps (newtask, prctl)) >The most obvious way to make psetenv(1) work would require enhancing the >agent thread environment so that for _some_ tasks (where security is not >an issue, and I think modifying the victim's environ is one such task) >one could load code and link it with the application's link map list. I fear dragons: - the agent lwp must in this case run concurrently with the other threads in the process because the environment and heap locking protocols must be honored - single threaded processes have some optimizations required to prevent performance regressions (severe enough to be patched back into S10; these optimizations can only be done when there is NO WAY that a thread gets magically created through a means other than *thread_create. - applications may assume getenv("PATH") will always return the same value - it's unlikely that psetenv will work on any shell because they are likely doing special environment handling. and all the usual "must dominate process" issues. >(BTW, a special rtld for agent threads would make it a lot easier to >write proc tools too, but wouldn't help in this case since modifying the >victim's environ kinda requires being linked with the victim's libc.) Ceterum Censeo, agent threads must die. Casper From gww@eng.sun.com Fri Jan 26 09:30:42 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0QHUf6S010818 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 09:30:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0QHUXX4007054 for <@sunmail1brm.central.sun.com:PSARC-EXT@sun.com>; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 01:30:40 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCH0041LKN1HN00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Fri, 26 Jan 2007 10:30:37 -0700 (MST) Received: from engmail3mpk.sfbay.Sun.COM ([129.146.11.26]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCH001C2KN0TE10@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Fri, 26 Jan 2007 10:30:36 -0700 (MST) Received: from marduk.eng.sun.com (marduk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.108.224]) by engmail3mpk.sfbay.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0QHUY9Q012640; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 09:30:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from marduk.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by marduk.eng.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l0QHUwLa027530; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 09:30:58 -0800 (PST) Received: (from gww@localhost) by marduk.eng.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.11/Submit) id l0QHUwK5027529; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 09:30:58 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 09:30:58 -0800 (PST) From: Gary Winiger Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page To: PSARC-EXT@sun.com, Darren.Moffat@sun.com Message-id: <200701261730.l0QHUwK5027529@marduk.eng.sun.com> Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 Status: RO Content-Length: 284 > There as a been an overwhelming amount of offtopic and aside discussion > on this thread, and it is getting to the point it is totally out of > control and I'm considering derailing from being a fast-track and I think you missed the derail mail that went out last Wed. Gary.. From John.Plocher@sun.com Fri Jan 26 09:40:23 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0QHeMhG011048 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 09:40:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0QHeGlA012992; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 17:40:17 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCH00505L33H300@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 10:40:15 -0700 (MST) Received: from nwk-ea-fw-1.sun.com ([10.4.134.5]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCH0010ML33SP20@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 10:40:15 -0700 (MST) Received: from d1-sfbay-09.sun.com ([192.18.39.119]) by nwk-ea-fw-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l0QHeE9g007420; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 09:40:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-sfbay-09.sun.com by d1-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JCH00901KQFSG00@d1-sfbay-09.sun.com> (original mail from John.Plocher@Sun.COM); Fri, 26 Jan 2007 09:40:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from [129.146.59.90] by d1-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JCH00MFRL30BLOF@d1-sfbay-09.sun.com>; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 09:40:12 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 09:40:10 -0800 From: John Plocher Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <45B92FF5.9010105@sun.com> Sender: John.Plocher@sun.com To: Joseph Kowalski Cc: Kyle McDonald , Nicolas Williams , barts@eng.sun.com, gww@eng.sun.com, Joerg Schilling , PSARC-EXT@sun.com, Marcel Telka , Darren.Reed@sun.com Message-id: <45BA3CFA.6090708@Sun.Com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45B7DE7F.705@sun.com> <45B8DD89.8020309@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125170857.GZ12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8E642.3090006@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125173913.GC12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8F1B3.7080302@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125182042.GG12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8F77D.2060707@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125184202.GJ12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8FDA2.8040000@BigBandNet.COM> <45B90BF4.5020806@Sun.Com> <45B90E41.7030204@BigBandNet.COM> <45B91F15.2070804@Sun.Com> <45B92138.6040307@sun.com> <45B929EE.6090101@Sun.Com> <45B92FF5.9010105@sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Macintosh/20061207) Status: RO Content-Length: 2401 > This isn't even an argument to put duplicates of everything into the > /usr/gnu/bin directory. The senario of downloading from sourceforge > and ending up with a newer copy of everything in /usr/gnu, leaving > the copies in /usr/bin untouched seems like the best possible result > to me. You've completely updated /usr/gnu and people who have > it in there paths and left the system versions in /usr/bin unchanged. I thought about this last night as I was playing chauffeur for our kid's school functions (lots of waiting...) When I wrote that, I wasn't thinking about the user downloading the gnu utils from sourceforge and replacing them; rather, I was thinking about the 140,000 other projects out there that are mostly under our radar - the ones we will never add into OpenSolaris, but that users want to use. But, your comment struck a chord - I am in the midst of installing a new system with B56, and the Apache httpd/Tomcat that comes with it is slightly out of date and not configured with the modules I need. This means that I'm trying to do exactly what you said. This leads me to believe that we need a different mechanism for incorporating these OSS bits into [Open]Solaris. Instead of forking a copy, massaging it privately, stuffing it into a SUNW* package and shipping the binaries with a Solaris distro, we should investigate how to push the packaging and delivery out and up. The best of all worlds would be for me to be able to go to the apache download site, grab the apache httpd source, type in the configure/make mantra and end up with a newer version of the OpenSolaris Apache Httpd package, one that could be used as an upgrade for the one shipped with the Solaris SX distro I am using. Same for the GNU toolchain, etc... This implies that the OSS stuff should not be packaged in the traditional SUNW* packages (which imply Sun control), but rather OSOL* or even APACHE* ones. It also suggests that there should be a continuing Project on OpenSolaris.org for each and every OSS thing that we decide needs to become a part of OpenSolaris, and that these project's deliverables are the upstream creation and maintenance of this package glue. Of course, such an effort also needs to figure out its relationship with the OSS things that are not part of OpenSolaris, but are delivered as part of the Blastwave, SunFreeware, SFW and Companion CD efforts. -John From nw141292@binky.Central.Sun.COM Fri Jan 26 09:53:37 2007 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0QHrbPm011316 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 09:53:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0QHrWKI020165; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 09:53:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCH00103LP85L00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 09:53:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM ([129.153.128.104]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCH00914LP7M8D0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 09:53:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0QHr4Y5005205; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 11:53:04 -0600 (CST) Received: (from nw141292@localhost) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/Submit) id l0QHr4W4005204; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 11:53:04 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 11:53:04 -0600 From: Nicolas Williams Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <200701261709.l0QH9uH7012631@vaticaan.holland.sun.com> To: Casper.Dik@sun.com Cc: Joerg Schilling , jek3@sun.com, PSARC-EXT@sun.com, Marcel.Telka@sun.com, Kyle.McDonald@bigbandnet.com, gww@eng.sun.com, Darren.Reed@sun.com, barts@eng.sun.com Message-id: <20070126175303.GB5092@binky.Central.Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45B7DE7F.705@sun.com> <45B8DD89.8020309@BigBandNet.COM> <17848.58989.858589.51932@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <45B8E900.3080005@BigBandNet.COM> <45B91001.2010001@sun.com> <20070125202341.GP12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45b9d0a0.v1vbA54+1Qs8vY48%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <20070126163712.GW12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <200701261709.l0QH9uH7012631@vaticaan.holland.sun.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.7i Status: RO Content-Length: 2328 What OpenSolaris discuss list should _this_ sub-thread move to? On Fri, Jan 26, 2007 at 06:09:56PM +0100, Casper.Dik@Sun.COM wrote: > I hadn't looked at the security issue of the agent thread from that > perspective; I find the whole "agent thread" a bug, not a feature. I think it's a feature but a bug for the proc tools to rely on it. I.e., I think it's a feature that 3rd party applications could use as a sort of _IPC_, but I agree with you on the remainder of you analysis. > [...] Right, so, proc tools don't work on victims that have reduced L where the proc tool requires a certain privilege to be available in the victim's oE. Ouch. > >The most obvious way to make psetenv(1) work would require enhancing the > >agent thread environment so that for _some_ tasks (where security is not > >an issue, and I think modifying the victim's environ is one such task) > >one could load code and link it with the application's link map list. > > I fear dragons: > > - the agent lwp must in this case run concurrently with the other > threads in the process because the environment and heap > locking protocols must be honored Yes, I forgot to mention that, but that's implied (long before you could even get to putenv() you'd have to have used the victim's rtld, and that too means not stopping the other threads, or at least very careful synchronization). > - single threaded processes have some optimizations required to > prevent performance regressions (severe enough to be patched > back into S10; these optimizations can only be done when there is > NO WAY that a thread gets magically created through a means > other than *thread_create. And we can't have a fiction of creating a thread as by a call to pthread_create() in a signal handler, right? > - applications may assume getenv("PATH") will always return the > same value Including shells. So psetenv(1) really only helps prior to an exec(2). But for PATH it would help with exec*p(2) with apps that don't implement PATH searching themselves. > >(BTW, a special rtld for agent threads would make it a lot easier to > >write proc tools too, but wouldn't help in this case since modifying the > >victim's environ kinda requires being linked with the victim's libc.) > > Ceterum Censeo, agent threads must die. Heh. Nico -- From casper@holland.sun.com Fri Jan 26 09:58:01 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0QHw0nt011709 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 09:58:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0QHvuof017818; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 17:57:58 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCH00101LWLXB00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 09:57:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from dm-holland-02.uk.sun.com ([129.156.101.225]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCH009BYLWKM8D0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 09:57:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from vaticaan.holland.sun.com (vaticaan.Holland.Sun.COM [129.159.212.1]) by dm-holland-02.uk.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0QHvoi3004412; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 17:57:50 +0000 (GMT) Received: from holland (casper@room101 [129.159.201.52]) by vaticaan.holland.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l0QHvoZH016342; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 18:57:50 +0100 (MET) Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 18:57:50 +0100 From: Casper.Dik@sun.com Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <20070126175303.GB5092@binky.Central.Sun.COM> Sender: casper@holland.sun.com To: Nicolas Williams Cc: Joerg Schilling , jek3@sun.com, PSARC-EXT@sun.com, Marcel.Telka@sun.com, Kyle.McDonald@bigbandnet.com, gww@eng.sun.com, Darren.Reed@sun.com, barts@eng.sun.com Message-id: <200701261757.l0QHvoZH016342@vaticaan.holland.sun.com> Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45B7DE7F.705@sun.com> <45B8DD89.8020309@BigBandNet.COM> <17848.58989.858589.51932@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <45B8E900.3080005@BigBandNet.COM> <45B91001.2010001@sun.com> <20070125202341.GP12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45b9d0a0.v1vbA54+1Qs8vY48%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <20070126163712.GW12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <200701261709.l0QH9uH7012631@vaticaan.holland.sun.com> <20070126175303.GB5092@binky.Central.Sun.COM> Status: RO Content-Length: 369 >And we can't have a fiction of creating a thread as by a call to >pthread_create() in a signal handler, right? No; you are not allowed to do anything in a signal handler. (Only call async-signal-safe functions) >Including shells. So psetenv(1) really only helps prior to an exec(2). Not for shells. (I don't expect shells to use the standard *environ[]) Casper From nw141292@binky.Central.Sun.COM Fri Jan 26 09:59:27 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0QHxQ3m011754 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 09:59:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0QHxFJK018125; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 17:59:20 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCH00G1ZLYVR200@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 09:59:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM ([129.153.128.104]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCH00IHULYTZID0@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 09:59:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0QHwoum005241; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 11:58:50 -0600 (CST) Received: (from nw141292@localhost) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/Submit) id l0QHwoOn005240; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 11:58:50 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 11:58:50 -0600 From: Nicolas Williams Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <45BA3CFA.6090708@Sun.Com> To: John Plocher Cc: Joseph Kowalski , Kyle McDonald , barts@eng.sun.com, gww@eng.sun.com, Joerg Schilling , PSARC-EXT@sun.com, Marcel Telka , Darren.Reed@sun.com Message-id: <20070126175849.GC5092@binky.Central.Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <45B8F77D.2060707@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125184202.GJ12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8FDA2.8040000@BigBandNet.COM> <45B90BF4.5020806@Sun.Com> <45B90E41.7030204@BigBandNet.COM> <45B91F15.2070804@Sun.Com> <45B92138.6040307@sun.com> <45B929EE.6090101@Sun.Com> <45B92FF5.9010105@sun.com> <45BA3CFA.6090708@Sun.Com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.7i Status: RO Content-Length: 676 On Fri, Jan 26, 2007 at 09:40:10AM -0800, John Plocher wrote: > This leads me to believe that we need a different mechanism for > incorporating these OSS bits into [Open]Solaris. Instead of forking > a copy, massaging it privately, stuffing it into a SUNW* package and > shipping the binaries with a Solaris distro, we should investigate > how to push the packaging and delivery out and up. Hear, hear. Shouldn't this then enhance the ARC's view of this case as specified? Since coreutils are, well, _core_ utilities, it behooves us to ship them as supported, in SUNW* pkgs, but most other FOSS should use a different location and package/distribution mechanism/namespace. From nw141292@binky.Central.Sun.COM Fri Jan 26 10:01:56 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0QI1tKV011800 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 10:01:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0QI1nqL018839; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 18:01:51 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCH00H0JM2Z0I00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 10:01:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM ([129.153.128.104]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCH00IOCM2ZZID0@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 10:01:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0QI1K3K005263; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 12:01:20 -0600 (CST) Received: (from nw141292@localhost) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/Submit) id l0QI1Kxe005262; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 12:01:20 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 12:01:20 -0600 From: Nicolas Williams Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <200701261757.l0QHvoZH016342@vaticaan.holland.sun.com> To: Casper.Dik@sun.com Cc: Joerg Schilling , jek3@sun.com, PSARC-EXT@sun.com, Marcel.Telka@sun.com, Kyle.McDonald@bigbandnet.com, gww@eng.sun.com, Darren.Reed@sun.com, barts@eng.sun.com Message-id: <20070126180119.GD5092@binky.Central.Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <45B8DD89.8020309@BigBandNet.COM> <17848.58989.858589.51932@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <45B8E900.3080005@BigBandNet.COM> <45B91001.2010001@sun.com> <20070125202341.GP12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45b9d0a0.v1vbA54+1Qs8vY48%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <20070126163712.GW12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <200701261709.l0QH9uH7012631@vaticaan.holland.sun.com> <20070126175303.GB5092@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <200701261757.l0QHvoZH016342@vaticaan.holland.sun.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.7i Status: RO Content-Length: 501 On Fri, Jan 26, 2007 at 06:57:50PM +0100, Casper.Dik@Sun.COM wrote: > > >And we can't have a fiction of creating a thread as by a call to > >pthread_create() in a signal handler, right? > > No; you are not allowed to do anything in a signal handler. > (Only call async-signal-safe functions) Right. > >Including shells. So psetenv(1) really only helps prior to an exec(2). > > Not for shells. (I don't expect shells to use the standard *environ[]) Ah, shells could be using exec*e(2), indeed. From Torrey.McMahon@Sun.COM Fri Jan 26 10:24:14 2007 Received: from sunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM (sunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.17]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0QIOEKF012046 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 10:24:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.11.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0QIODj06085; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 11:24:13 -0700 (MST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCH00A19N4CDR00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 11:24:12 -0700 (MST) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.98.43]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCH001AGN48SP40@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 11:24:08 -0700 (MST) Received: from fe-amer-04.sun.com ([192.18.108.178]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l0QIO8EW007748; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 11:24:08 -0700 (MST) Received: from conversion-daemon.mail-amer.sun.com by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JCH00501MW9QM00@mail-amer.sun.com> (original mail from Torrey.McMahon@Sun.COM); Fri, 26 Jan 2007 11:24:08 -0700 (MST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([69.143.27.128]) by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JCH00GZAN46OXEB@mail-amer.sun.com>; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 11:24:07 -0700 (MST) Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 13:26:05 -0500 From: Torrey McMahon Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <45BA3CFA.6090708@Sun.Com> Sender: Torrey.McMahon@Sun.COM To: John Plocher Cc: Joseph Kowalski , Kyle McDonald , Nicolas Williams , barts@eng.sun.com, gww@eng.sun.com, Joerg Schilling , PSARC-EXT@Sun.COM, Marcel Telka , Darren.Reed@Sun.COM Message-id: <45BA47BD.2070702@sun.com> Organization: Sun Microsystems Inc. MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45B7DE7F.705@sun.com> <45B8DD89.8020309@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125170857.GZ12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8E642.3090006@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125173913.GC12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8F1B3.7080302@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125182042.GG12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8F77D.2060707@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125184202.GJ12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8FDA2.8040000@BigBandNet.COM> <45B90BF4.5020806@Sun.Com> <45B90E41.7030204@BigBandNet.COM> <45B91F15.2070804@Sun.Com> <45B92138.6040307@sun.com> <45B929EE.6090101@Sun.Com> <45B92FF5.9010105@sun.com> <45BA3CFA.6090708@Sun.Com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) Status: RO Content-Length: 1004 John Plocher wrote: > > > The best of all worlds would be for me to be able to go to the apache > download site, grab the apache httpd source, type in the configure/make > mantra and end up with a newer version of the OpenSolaris Apache Httpd > package, one that could be used as an upgrade for the one shipped with > the Solaris SX distro I am using. Same for the GNU toolchain, etc... I really like this idea. However, the problem then becomes support and distribution. Playing Devil's Advocate... Support - I want Sun to support the software I use. Even the free stuff. Distribution - I can't get to the source, I don't trust the source. I want Sun to check things over and bundled it accordingly If you can get around those issues or waive them off as a tradeoff then I think you'll be good to go. Have a website that lists the free software bits, patches for specific versions if needed, compile options we suggest, etc. The compilers question has been solved with studio 11 being free. From alan.coopersmith@sun.com Fri Jan 26 10:27:59 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0QIRwBk012068 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 10:27:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0QIRrKF021379; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 02:27:54 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCH00609NAFYO00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 10:27:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from sfbaymail1sca.SFBay.Sun.COM ([129.145.154.35]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCH003GGNAFRD30@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 10:27:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from [129.146.108.211] (almas.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.108.211]) by sfbaymail1sca.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0QIRkZE027301; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 10:27:46 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 10:27:46 -0800 From: Alan Coopersmith Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <45BA47BD.2070702@sun.com> To: Torrey McMahon Cc: John Plocher , Joseph Kowalski , Kyle McDonald , Nicolas Williams , barts@eng.sun.com, gww@eng.sun.com, Joerg Schilling , PSARC-EXT@sun.com, Marcel Telka , Darren.Reed@sun.com Message-id: <45BA4822.8000807@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45B7DE7F.705@sun.com> <45B8DD89.8020309@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125170857.GZ12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8E642.3090006@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125173913.GC12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8F1B3.7080302@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125182042.GG12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8F77D.2060707@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125184202.GJ12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8FDA2.8040000@BigBandNet.COM> <45B90BF4.5020806@Sun.Com> <45B90E41.7030204@BigBandNet.COM> <45B91F15.2070804@Sun.Com> <45B92138.6040307@sun.com> <45B929EE.6090101@Sun.Com> <45B92FF5.9010105@sun.com> <45BA3CFA.6090708@Sun.Com> <45BA47BD.2070702@sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.8 (X11/20061113) Status: RO Content-Length: 411 Torrey McMahon wrote: > Distribution - I can't get to the source, I don't trust the source. I > want Sun to check things over and bundled it accordingly Sun doesn't do a full in-depth review of the sources we get from other communities, so we don't really have that in today's solution either. -- -Alan Coopersmith- alan.coopersmith@sun.com Sun Microsystems, Inc. - X Window System Engineering From David.Comay@sun.com Fri Jan 26 11:24:45 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0QJOifq013953 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 11:24:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0QJOZiY012192 for <@sunmail1brm.central.sun.com:PSARC-EXT@Sun.COM>; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 19:24:43 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCH00H03PX5FY00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for PSARC-EXT@Sun.COM (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@Sun.COM); Fri, 26 Jan 2007 12:24:41 -0700 (MST) Received: from izimbra.SFBay.Sun.COM ([129.146.226.141]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCH001KCPX4SW70@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for PSARC-EXT@Sun.COM (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@Sun.COM); Fri, 26 Jan 2007 12:24:40 -0700 (MST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by izimbra.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l0QJOefX006819 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 11:24:40 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 11:24:40 -0800 (PST) From: David.Comay@sun.com Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <45BA3CFA.6090708@Sun.Com> Sender: comay@izimbra.SFBay.Sun.COM To: PSARC-EXT@sun.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45B7DE7F.705@sun.com> <45B8DD89.8020309@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125170857.GZ12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8E642.3090006@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125173913.GC12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8F1B3.7080302@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125182042.GG12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8F77D.2060707@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125184202.GJ12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8FDA2.8040000@BigBandNet.COM> <45B90BF4.5020806@Sun.Com> <45B90E41.7030204@BigBandNet.COM> <45B91F15.2070804@Sun.Com> <45B92138.6040307@sun.com> <45B929EE.6090101@Sun.Com> <45B92FF5.9010105@sun.com> <45BA3CFA.6090708@Sun.Com> Status: RO Content-Length: 902 John P> This leads me to believe that we need a different mechanism for John P> incorporating these OSS bits into [Open]Solaris. Instead of forking John P> a copy, massaging it privately, stuffing it into a SUNW* package and John P> shipping the binaries with a Solaris distro, we should investigate John P> how to push the packaging and delivery out and up. Agreed, at least partially. There needs to be a different way that OpenSolaris deals with OSS in order to accomodate all of what's out there, the desire to have more of it available, the lack of resources in maintaining all of it, the abilities of distributions to choose what to include and what not to include, etc. It seems this discussion has veered fairly far afield from Stephen's original proposal - I'd like to suggest that something like sfwnv-discuss@opensolaris.org might be a better place for this interesting discussion. dsc From Torrey.McMahon@sun.com Fri Jan 26 12:02:24 2007 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0QK2OrN014736 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 12:02:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0QK2NQk012116; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 12:02:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCH00M0RRNZ4N00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 13:02:23 -0700 (MST) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com ([192.18.98.36]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCH001X5RNXSF90@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 13:02:22 -0700 (MST) Received: from fe-amer-09.sun.com ([192.18.108.183]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l0QK2IcD019696; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 13:02:21 -0700 (MST) Received: from conversion-daemon.mail-amer.sun.com by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JCH00501RM56Y00@mail-amer.sun.com> (original mail from Torrey.McMahon@Sun.COM); Fri, 26 Jan 2007 13:02:19 -0700 (MST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([69.143.27.128]) by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JCH007XNRNUJ9JT@mail-amer.sun.com>; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 13:02:19 -0700 (MST) Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 15:04:24 -0500 From: Torrey McMahon Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <45BA4822.8000807@sun.com> Sender: Torrey.McMahon@sun.com To: Alan Coopersmith Cc: John Plocher , Joseph Kowalski , Kyle McDonald , Nicolas Williams , barts@eng.sun.com, gww@eng.sun.com, Joerg Schilling , PSARC-EXT@sun.com, Marcel Telka , Darren.Reed@sun.com Message-id: <45BA5EC8.30809@sun.com> Organization: Sun Microsystems Inc. MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45B7DE7F.705@sun.com> <45B8DD89.8020309@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125170857.GZ12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8E642.3090006@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125173913.GC12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8F1B3.7080302@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125182042.GG12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8F77D.2060707@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125184202.GJ12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8FDA2.8040000@BigBandNet.COM> <45B90BF4.5020806@Sun.Com> <45B90E41.7030204@BigBandNet.COM> <45B91F15.2070804@Sun.Com> <45B92138.6040307@sun.com> <45B929EE.6090101@Sun.Com> <45B92FF5.9010105@sun.com> <45BA3CFA.6090708@Sun.Com> <45BA47BD.2070702@sun.com> <45BA4822.8000807@sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) Status: RO Content-Length: 400 Alan Coopersmith wrote: > Torrey McMahon wrote: >> Distribution - I can't get to the source, I don't trust the source. I >> want Sun to check things over and bundled it accordingly > > Sun doesn't do a full in-depth review of the sources we get from other > communities, so we don't really have that in today's solution either. Yeah ... but did they know that before this email went external? ;-) From Darren.Reed@sun.com Fri Jan 26 13:04:38 2007 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0QL4cQA016433 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 13:04:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0QL4bPI001491; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 13:04:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCH00A1PUJPX500@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 13:04:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from sineb-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.19.7]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCH00LZDUJEZQ30@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 13:04:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from fe-apac-01.sun.com (fe-apac-01.sun.com [192.18.19.172] (may be forged)) by sineb-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l0QL4Q9l000276; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 05:04:26 +0800 (SGT) Received: from conversion-daemon.mail-apac.sun.com by mail-apac.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JCH00J01UBA2X00@mail-apac.sun.com> (original mail from Darren.Reed@Sun.COM); Sat, 27 Jan 2007 05:04:25 +0800 (SGT) Received: from [129.157.19.198] by mail-apac.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JCH005O6UJ9OV00@mail-apac.sun.com>; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 05:04:25 +0800 (SGT) Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 22:03:47 +0100 From: Darren Reed Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <45BA3CFA.6090708@Sun.Com> Sender: Darren.Reed@sun.com To: John Plocher Cc: Joseph Kowalski , Kyle McDonald , Nicolas Williams , barts@eng.sun.com, gww@eng.sun.com, Joerg Schilling , PSARC-EXT@sun.com, Marcel Telka Message-id: <45BA6CB3.30504@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en-us, en X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45B7DE7F.705@sun.com> <45B8DD89.8020309@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125170857.GZ12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8E642.3090006@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125173913.GC12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8F1B3.7080302@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125182042.GG12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8F77D.2060707@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125184202.GJ12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8FDA2.8040000@BigBandNet.COM> <45B90BF4.5020806@Sun.Com> <45B90E41.7030204@BigBandNet.COM> <45B91F15.2070804@Sun.Com> <45B92138.6040307@sun.com> <45B929EE.6090101@Sun.Com> <45B92FF5.9010105@sun.com> <45BA3CFA.6090708@Sun.Com> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; SunOS i86pc; en-US; rv:1.7) Gecko/20060120 Status: RO Content-Length: 3045 John Plocher wrote: > >> This isn't even an argument to put duplicates of everything into the >> /usr/gnu/bin directory. The senario of downloading from sourceforge >> and ending up with a newer copy of everything in /usr/gnu, leaving >> the copies in /usr/bin untouched seems like the best possible result >> to me. You've completely updated /usr/gnu and people who have >> it in there paths and left the system versions in /usr/bin unchanged. > > > > I thought about this last night as I was playing chauffeur for our > kid's school functions (lots of waiting...) > > When I wrote that, I wasn't thinking about the user downloading > the gnu utils from sourceforge and replacing them; rather, I was thinking > about the 140,000 other projects out there that are mostly under our > radar - the ones we will never add into OpenSolaris, but that users > want to use. > > But, your comment struck a chord - I am in the midst of installing a > new system with B56, and the Apache httpd/Tomcat that comes with it is > slightly out of date and not configured with the modules I need. This > means that I'm trying to do exactly what you said. > > This leads me to believe that we need a different mechanism for > incorporating these OSS bits into [Open]Solaris. Instead of forking > a copy, massaging it privately, stuffing it into a SUNW* package and > shipping the binaries with a Solaris distro, we should investigate > how to push the packaging and delivery out and up. > > The best of all worlds would be for me to be able to go to the apache > download site, grab the apache httpd source, type in the configure/make > mantra and end up with a newer version of the OpenSolaris Apache Httpd > package, one that could be used as an upgrade for the one shipped with > the Solaris SX distro I am using. Same for the GNU toolchain, etc... > > This implies that the OSS stuff should not be packaged in the traditional > SUNW* packages (which imply Sun control), but rather OSOL* or even > APACHE* ones. > > It also suggests that there should be a continuing Project on > OpenSolaris.org for each and every OSS thing that we decide needs > to become a part of OpenSolaris, and that these project's deliverables > are the upstream creation and maintenance of this package glue. That is a lot of overhead in terms of projects to track and keep running and I don't believe that model scales well. An alternative might be to construct a single project that is responsible for keeping 3rd party projects "up to date" and within that project to be able to delegate responsibility for a single package to various individuals so that the workload can be spread out to those that are interested. This is the structure that FreeBSD/NetBSD use and it allows them to deliver a tree of Makefiles and information files (patches, meta data, etc) that allows you to type "make" and build the package. It has allowed them to scale their delivery of 3rd party OSS into the 100s of individual titles. Darren p.s. has this digressed far enough to be off-topic? From Ed.Gould@Sun.COM Fri Jan 26 13:22:17 2007 Received: from sunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM (sunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.17]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0QLMGiP016683 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 13:22:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.11.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0QLMGj29644 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-EXT@sun.com>; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 14:22:16 -0700 (MST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCH00E05VD38G00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Fri, 26 Jan 2007 13:22:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-ea-fw-1.sun.com ([10.4.134.6]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCH00L2UVD3ZQ50@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Fri, 26 Jan 2007 13:22:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from d1-sfbay-10.sun.com ([192.18.39.120]) by nwk-ea-fw-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l0QLMFb0029042 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 13:22:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-sfbay-10.sun.com by d1-sfbay-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JCH00101V8U8S00@d1-sfbay-10.sun.com> (original mail from Ed.Gould@Sun.COM) for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Fri, 26 Jan 2007 13:22:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.0.10] ([129.150.26.235]) by d1-sfbay-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JCH00D6EVD2NTEW@d1-sfbay-10.sun.com>; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 13:22:15 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 13:22:14 -0800 From: Ed Gould Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <200701261730.l0QHUwK5027529@marduk.eng.sun.com> Sender: Ed.Gould@Sun.COM To: PSARC-EXT@Sun.COM Cc: Gary Winiger , Darren J Moffat Message-id: <78cf5340c9e2d95b44a499c11062d397@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.624) Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200701261730.l0QHUwK5027529@marduk.eng.sun.com> Status: RO Content-Length: 1415 >> There as a been an overwhelming amount of offtopic and aside >> discussion >> on this thread, and it is getting to the point it is totally out of >> control and I'm considering derailing from being a fast-track and > > I think you missed the derail mail that went out last Wed. As a result of this case (/usr/gnu, PSARC/2007/047, not just the man page addendum) being derailed, there will be a discussion of the issues at a PSARC meeting. Exactly when that will be (the likely candidates are 31 January and 7 February) is still being negotiated. There is a high-priority internal case looking to get scheduled as well. One item I would like to ask the project team to bring to this meeting is a problem statement. I think it's important for us to have a common understanding what we're trying to do; without that, I doubt that we can converge on a satisfactory solution. A statement like, "Create a repository for FSF software on OpenSolaris" is probably not adequate. I would like to understand why doing so is interesting, and what problem is being addressed. (Please note that I believe that there is a good reason to do this; I'm not trying to be contrary. But, but I have not seen it articulated.) The sooner such a statement can be generated and agreed to by the project team, the better. I hope it can be posted here well in advance or the meeting. --Ed Gould PSARC chair From jek3@sun.com Fri Jan 26 13:40:51 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0QLeoPp016923 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 13:40:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0QLecUC017191; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 21:40:46 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCH00A03W7X6100@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 13:40:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from jurassic.eng.sun.com ([129.146.106.105]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCH008N7W7WU430@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 13:40:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from [129.150.12.53] (vpn-129-150-12-53.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.12.53]) by jurassic.eng.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l0QLebvW650768; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 13:40:38 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 11:38:54 -1000 From: Joseph Kowalski Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <45b9ec83.Fc+NtMYyy/aMV6Bm%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> To: Joerg Schilling Cc: PSARC-EXT@sun.com, pete@sorted.org, Nicolas.Williams@sun.com, Marcel.Telka@sun.com, Kyle.McDonald@bigbandnet.com, gww@eng.sun.com, Darren.Reed@sun.com, barts@eng.sun.com Message-id: <45BA74EE.9030204@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200701240607.l0O67Z4O023171@marduk.eng.sun.com> <20070124061851.GB27682@eng.sun.com> <45B75FA2.1080504@sun.com> <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45B7DE7F.705@sun.com> <45B8DD89.8020309@BigBandNet.COM> <45B8E5F2.8030402@sorted.org> <20070125182741.GH12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45b92255.SyqzRrKkOs/PRkIC%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <45B92464.9020402@sun.com> <45b9ec83.Fc+NtMYyy/aMV6Bm%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060925) Status: RO Content-Length: 621 Joerg Schilling wrote: > If some people like to crete an embedded system that is based on OpenSolaris, > it may be important to be able to have a basic system that is purely based > on "free enough" software like CDDLd software. > > In former times, Sun did not even allow the GNU toolchain to be used in order > to compile Solaris. This was too much, but it still makes sense to have a > working system that could be setup without GNU software. > > Jörg > I think this issue is beyond the ARC. It seems like a policy decision to be made by the CAB. If the CAB sets a policy, then the ARC can enforce it. - jek3 From John.Plocher@Sun.COM Fri Jan 26 13:54:00 2007 Received: from sunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM (sunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.17]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0QLs01L017175 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 13:54:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.11.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0QLrxj20790; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 14:53:59 -0700 (MST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCH00B07WTZ4600@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 13:53:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-ea-fw-1.sun.com ([10.4.134.5]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCH008K2WTYU460@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 13:53:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from d1-sfbay-09.sun.com ([192.18.39.119]) by nwk-ea-fw-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l0QLrwW5009830; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 13:53:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-sfbay-09.sun.com by d1-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JCH00C01WO1FH00@d1-sfbay-09.sun.com> (original mail from John.Plocher@Sun.COM); Fri, 26 Jan 2007 13:53:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from [129.146.59.90] by d1-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JCH00M4RWTXBKWS@d1-sfbay-09.sun.com>; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 13:53:57 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 13:53:55 -0800 From: John Plocher Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <45BA74EE.9030204@sun.com> Sender: John.Plocher@Sun.COM To: Joseph Kowalski Cc: Joerg Schilling , barts@eng.sun.com, gww@eng.sun.com, PSARC-EXT@Sun.COM, Marcel.Telka@Sun.COM, Darren.Reed@Sun.COM Message-id: <45BA7873.8080600@Sun.Com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200701240607.l0O67Z4O023171@marduk.eng.sun.com> <20070124061851.GB27682@eng.sun.com> <45B75FA2.1080504@sun.com> <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45B7DE7F.705@sun.com> <45B8DD89.8020309@BigBandNet.COM> <45B8E5F2.8030402@sorted.org> <20070125182741.GH12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45b92255.SyqzRrKkOs/PRkIC%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <45B92464.9020402@sun.com> <45b9ec83.Fc+NtMYyy/aMV6Bm%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <45BA74EE.9030204@sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Macintosh/20061207) Status: RO Content-Length: 405 Joseph Kowalski wrote: > I think this issue is beyond the ARC. It seems like a policy decision > to be made by the CAB. > If the CAB sets a policy, then the ARC can enforce it. But, I believe that it *is* a topic that the ARC community could/should drive - the CAB/OGB isn't set up to be proactive, so if nobody owns the question, there will never be the need for them to invent an answer. -John From carlsonj@phorcys.east.sun.com Fri Jan 26 14:11:11 2007 Received: from sunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM (sunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.17]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0QMBAj0017726 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 14:11:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.11.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0QMB2j03111; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 15:11:02 -0700 (MST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCH0001HXMC9P00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 14:11:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com ([129.148.174.143]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCH00L3NXMBZQ80@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 14:11:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l0QMAwpG009126; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 17:10:58 -0500 (EST) Received: (from carlsonj@localhost) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/Submit) id l0QMAwMF009123; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 17:10:58 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 17:10:58 -0500 From: James Carlson Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <45BA7873.8080600@Sun.Com> To: John Plocher Cc: Joseph Kowalski , barts@eng.sun.com, gww@eng.sun.com, Joerg Schilling , PSARC-EXT@sun.com, Marcel.Telka@sun.com, Darren.Reed@sun.com Message-id: <17850.31858.378632.803836@gargle.gargle.HOWL> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: VM 7.01 under Emacs 21.3.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200701240607.l0O67Z4O023171@marduk.eng.sun.com> <20070124061851.GB27682@eng.sun.com> <45B75FA2.1080504@sun.com> <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45B7DE7F.705@sun.com> <45B8DD89.8020309@BigBandNet.COM> <45B8E5F2.8030402@sorted.org> <20070125182741.GH12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45b92255.SyqzRrKkOs/PRkIC%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <45B92464.9020402@sun.com> <45b9ec83.Fc+NtMYyy/aMV6Bm%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <45BA74EE.9030204@sun.com> <45BA7873.8080600@Sun.Com> Status: RO Content-Length: 1192 John Plocher writes: > Joseph Kowalski wrote: > > I think this issue is beyond the ARC. It seems like a policy decision > > to be made by the CAB. > > If the CAB sets a policy, then the ARC can enforce it. > > > But, I believe that it *is* a topic that the ARC community could/should > drive - the CAB/OGB isn't set up to be proactive, so if nobody owns > the question, there will never be the need for them to invent an answer. I think that presumes that there are folks in the ARC community who believe that Open Solaris should be an "other license free zone." Are there any? If so, then they can drive ... but they'll still need to drive in the CAB. It would seem quite odd to me to have someone file a case suggesting that GPL'd (or just non-CDDL) code should be booted out of Solaris without some actual higher-level commitment behind it. It'd also be a rather tough thing to implement ... if it's indeed possible at all. (I somewhat doubt that it is.) -- James Carlson, Solaris Networking Sun Microsystems / 1 Network Drive 71.232W Vox +1 781 442 2084 MS UBUR02-212 / Burlington MA 01803-2757 42.496N Fax +1 781 442 1677 From jek3@sun.com Fri Jan 26 14:19:46 2007 Received: from sunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM (sunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.17]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0QMJk8C017864 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 14:19:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.11.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0QMJfj11353; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 15:19:41 -0700 (MST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCH00105Y0RHY00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 14:19:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from jurassic.eng.sun.com ([129.146.17.57]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCH00LRXY0RZO80@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 14:19:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from [129.150.12.53] (vpn-129-150-12-53.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.12.53]) by jurassic.eng.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l0QMJXgm662576; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 14:19:34 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 12:17:50 -1000 From: Joseph Kowalski Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <45BA12AA.9020708@BigBandNet.COM> To: Kyle McDonald Cc: John Plocher , Nicolas Williams , barts@eng.sun.com, gww@eng.sun.com, Joerg Schilling , PSARC-EXT@sun.com, Marcel Telka , Darren.Reed@sun.com Message-id: <45BA7E0E.5090809@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45B7DE7F.705@sun.com> <45B8DD89.8020309@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125170857.GZ12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8E642.3090006@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125173913.GC12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8F1B3.7080302@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125182042.GG12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8F77D.2060707@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125184202.GJ12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8FDA2.8040000@BigBandNet.COM> <45B90BF4.5020806@Sun.Com> <45B90E41.7030204@BigBandNet.COM> <45B91F15.2070804@Sun.Com> <45B92138.6040307@sun.com> <45B929EE.6090101@Sun.Com> <45B92FF5.9010105@sun.com> <45BA12AA.9020708@BigBandNet.COM> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060925) Status: RO Content-Length: 1094 Kyle McDonald wrote: > By lumping more things in together you force users to take the whole > thing, or override the whole thing. So, we only seem to be talking about granularity here. At the extreme we have: /usr/gnu/ls/bin/ls /usr/gnu/cat/bin/cat ... We undoubtedly don't want to go to that extreme. At the other extreme we have lumping everything into /usr/bin. I'm guessing that the disconnect is that we tend to believe (or at least I tend to believe) that users able to cope with setting $PATH will be able to determine the optimal location for /usr/bin in their path and that it usually tends to be towards the end. Hence, appropriately sized "groups" of utilities can be interposed on /usr/bin. I tend to think "gnu core utilities" is an appropriate grouping. I think a fair argument can be made that "gnu" might be too large. If this is your point, I'm sorry I missed it. The guy who wants gnu-make, but not gnu-ls can't reasonably solve this desire by PATH (unless you take granularization to the extreme). I have one word for this: "alias". - jek3 From John.Plocher@sun.com Fri Jan 26 15:13:27 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0QNDQUT020632 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 15:13:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0QNDM1D010512; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 23:13:24 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCI00B050IALH00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 15:13:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-ea-fw-1.sun.com ([10.4.134.6]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCI00LAU0I9ZMC0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 15:13:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from d1-sfbay-09.sun.com ([192.18.39.119]) by nwk-ea-fw-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l0QNDLl6012201; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 15:13:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-sfbay-09.sun.com by d1-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JCI00K010FNY800@d1-sfbay-09.sun.com> (original mail from John.Plocher@Sun.COM); Fri, 26 Jan 2007 15:13:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from [129.146.59.90] by d1-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JCI00MXH0I9BLFH@d1-sfbay-09.sun.com>; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 15:13:21 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 15:13:18 -0800 From: John Plocher Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <45BA7E0E.5090809@sun.com> Sender: John.Plocher@sun.com To: Joseph Kowalski Cc: Kyle McDonald , Nicolas Williams , barts@eng.sun.com, gww@eng.sun.com, Joerg Schilling , PSARC-EXT@sun.com, Marcel Telka , Darren.Reed@sun.com Message-id: <45BA8B0E.6030400@Sun.Com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45B7DE7F.705@sun.com> <45B8DD89.8020309@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125170857.GZ12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8E642.3090006@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125173913.GC12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8F1B3.7080302@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125182042.GG12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8F77D.2060707@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125184202.GJ12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8FDA2.8040000@BigBandNet.COM> <45B90BF4.5020806@Sun.Com> <45B90E41.7030204@BigBandNet.COM> <45B91F15.2070804@Sun.Com> <45B92138.6040307@sun.com> <45B929EE.6090101@Sun.Com> <45B92FF5.9010105@sun.com> <45BA12AA.9020708@BigBandNet.COM> <45BA7E0E.5090809@sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Macintosh/20061207) Status: RO Content-Length: 1315 Joseph Kowalski wrote: > I'm guessing that the disconnect is that we tend to believe (or at least > I tend to believe) that > users able to cope with setting $PATH will be able to determine the > optimal location for > /usr/bin in their path and that it usually tends to be towards the end. > Hence, appropriately > sized "groups" of utilities can be interposed on /usr/bin. As I (just) put in the issues file: jmp-1 This proposal puts a set of OSS utilities in /usr/bin where they become intermingled with core Solaris commands. It also puts conflicting commands in /usr/gnu. This lets the user choose between Solaris versions 1st + Solaris-GNU versions 2nd (PATH=/usr/bin:/usr/gnu) and Solaris-GNU versions 1st + Solaris versions 2nd (PATH=/usr/gnu:/usr/bin) It does not allow for Solaris versions 1st + User-Provided-GNU versions 2nd That is, if I download/configure/make my own version of the GNU utilities, I am faced with either using them to the exclusion of any Solaris versions (PATH=/myGNU:/usr/bin) or not using them at all. There is no way for me to use the Solaris versions 1st and my GNU versions 2nd. -John From John.Plocher@sun.com Fri Jan 26 16:00:20 2007 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0R00KXV021888 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 16:00:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0R00JbO028657; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 16:00:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCI00KAT2OJQ800@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 16:00:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-ea-fw-1.sun.com ([10.4.134.5]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCI00FXC2OHAH20@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 16:00:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from d1-sfbay-09.sun.com ([192.18.39.119]) by nwk-ea-fw-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l0R00Hfo024063; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 16:00:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-sfbay-09.sun.com by d1-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JCI00L012MYWZ00@d1-sfbay-09.sun.com> (original mail from John.Plocher@Sun.COM); Fri, 26 Jan 2007 16:00:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from [129.146.59.90] by d1-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JCI00MFL2OGBLOH@d1-sfbay-09.sun.com>; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 16:00:16 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 16:00:13 -0800 From: John Plocher Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <45BA8B0E.6030400@Sun.Com> Sender: John.Plocher@sun.com To: John Plocher Cc: Joseph Kowalski , barts@eng.sun.com, gww@eng.sun.com, Joerg Schilling , PSARC-EXT@sun.com, Marcel Telka , Darren.Reed@sun.com Message-id: <45BA960D.4040405@Sun.Com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45B7DE7F.705@sun.com> <45B8DD89.8020309@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125170857.GZ12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8E642.3090006@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125173913.GC12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8F1B3.7080302@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125182042.GG12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8F77D.2060707@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125184202.GJ12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8FDA2.8040000@BigBandNet.COM> <45B90BF4.5020806@Sun.Com> <45B90E41.7030204@BigBandNet.COM> <45B91F15.2070804@Sun.Com> <45B92138.6040307@sun.com> <45B929EE.6090101@Sun.Com> <45B92FF5.9010105@sun.com> <45BA12AA.9020708@BigBandNet.COM> <45BA7E0E.5090809@sun.com> <45BA8B0E.6030400@Sun.Com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Macintosh/20061207) Status: RO Content-Length: 1864 > Joseph Kowalski wrote: > What would the counter proposal be? Everything I can think of has some > similar case that will not work. I see several alternatives: A) Put all the stuff in /usr/gnu, modify /etc/default/login to add /usr/gnu to PATH [+] new users see the combined environment [-] existing users that didn't set their PATH to include the initial system settings (PATH=$PATH:...) don't [-] all users that wish to interpose their own version are forced to explicitly set PATH to override the default B) Put all the stuff in /usr/gnu, provide a pkg of symlinks into /usr/bin (etc - see my earlier mail) [+] new users see the combined environment [+] existing users do as well [-] The choice of installing the symlink pkg or not affects all users on a system, not just those that wish to interpose their own version. new users of systems without the symlinks, but with an alternate set of gnu utilities would have access to neither. C) Don't add this source to ON, but rather push the current proposal's pkg creation and glue out to an external consolidation; Sun would then co-ship a release of that consolidation's packages with ON. (This really starts to smell like blastwave, sunfreeware and friends) [+] new users see the combined environment [+] existing users do as well [+] Motivated admins could build a newer package on their own and upgrade to it; such an upgrade would "just work" with Sun's own upgrade processes; users would not see any difference between the pre and post "gnu upgrade". Personally, I really like "C", but it presumes that stability, dependency and release-engineering concerns could be addressed (I think they can be). -John From David.Comay@sun.com Fri Jan 26 16:12:30 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0R0CTjt022086 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 16:12:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0R0CQaW020349; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 00:12:27 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCI0070538QPI00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 17:12:26 -0700 (MST) Received: from izimbra.SFBay.Sun.COM ([129.146.226.141]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCI00KYS38PFYC0@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 17:12:25 -0700 (MST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by izimbra.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l0R0CPH9007787; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 16:12:25 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 16:12:25 -0800 (PST) From: David.Comay@sun.com Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <45BA960D.4040405@Sun.Com> Sender: comay@izimbra.SFBay.Sun.COM To: John Plocher Cc: PSARC-EXT@sun.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45B7DE7F.705@sun.com> <45B8DD89.8020309@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125170857.GZ12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8E642.3090006@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125173913.GC12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8F1B3.7080302@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125182042.GG12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8F77D.2060707@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125184202.GJ12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8FDA2.8040000@BigBandNet.COM> <45B90BF4.5020806@Sun.Com> <45B90E41.7030204@BigBandNet.COM> <45B91F15.2070804@Sun.Com> <45B92138.6040307@sun.com> <45B929EE.6090101@Sun.Com> <45B92FF5.9010105@sun.com> <45BA12AA.9020708@BigBandNet.COM> <45BA7E0E.5090809@sun.com> <45BA8B0E.6030400@Sun.Com> <45BA960D.4040405@Sun.Com> Status: RO Content-Length: 1103 > C) Don't add this source to ON, but rather push the current proposal's > pkg creation and glue out to an external consolidation; Sun would then > co-ship a release of that consolidation's packages with ON. (This > really starts to smell like blastwave, sunfreeware and friends) > [+] new users see the combined environment > [+] existing users do as well > [+] Motivated admins could build a newer package on their own and > upgrade to it; such an upgrade would "just work" with Sun's own > upgrade processes; users would not see any difference between > the pre and post "gnu upgrade". [ I really think this discussion belongs on sfwnv-discuss, but when in Rome... ] The proposal was not to add GNU coreutils into ON but rather the SFW consolidation. That's not quite an external consolidation in the vein of Blastwave or SunFreeware but it might very well be that in the future. One issue is that this consolidation currently publishes packages which Sun's branded distribution, Solaris, incorporates completely into their product. dsc From jek3@sun.com Fri Jan 26 16:43:33 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0R0hWel022541 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 16:43:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0R0hQfa025013; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 00:43:28 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCI006094OF3300@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 16:43:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from jurassic.eng.sun.com ([129.146.56.144]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCI000G64OFYK20@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 16:43:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from [129.150.12.53] (vpn-129-150-12-53.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.12.53]) by jurassic.eng.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l0R0hIxR705291; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 16:43:19 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 14:41:36 -1000 From: Joseph Kowalski Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <45BA960D.4040405@Sun.Com> To: John Plocher Cc: barts@eng.sun.com, gww@eng.sun.com, Joerg Schilling , PSARC-EXT@sun.com, Marcel Telka , Darren.Reed@sun.com Message-id: <45BA9FC0.6050302@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45B7DE7F.705@sun.com> <45B8DD89.8020309@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125170857.GZ12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8E642.3090006@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125173913.GC12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8F1B3.7080302@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125182042.GG12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8F77D.2060707@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125184202.GJ12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8FDA2.8040000@BigBandNet.COM> <45B90BF4.5020806@Sun.Com> <45B90E41.7030204@BigBandNet.COM> <45B91F15.2070804@Sun.Com> <45B92138.6040307@sun.com> <45B929EE.6090101@Sun.Com> <45B92FF5.9010105@sun.com> <45BA12AA.9020708@BigBandNet.COM> <45BA7E0E.5090809@sun.com> <45BA8B0E.6030400@Sun.Com> <45BA960D.4040405@Sun.Com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060925) Status: RO Content-Length: 2717 John Plocher wrote: > > Joseph Kowalski wrote: > > What would the counter proposal be? Everything I can think of has some > > similar case that will not work. > > I see several alternatives: > > A) Put all the stuff in /usr/gnu, modify /etc/default/login to add > /usr/gnu to PATH > [+] new users see the combined environment > [-] existing users that didn't set their PATH to include the > initial > system settings (PATH=$PATH:...) don't > [-] all users that wish to interpose their own version are > forced to > explicitly set PATH to override the default Do you remember the last time Rob went ballistic before he left? It was over login adding something to the users path. After that rucus, I think this is a non-starter, and should be. We simply shouldn't muck with PATH. > B) Put all the stuff in /usr/gnu, provide a pkg of symlinks into /usr/bin > (etc - see my earlier mail) > [+] new users see the combined environment > [+] existing users do as well > [-] The choice of installing the symlink pkg or not affects all > users > on a system, not just those that wish to interpose their > own version. > new users of systems without the symlinks, but with an > alternate set > of gnu utilities would have access to neither. Since this is a per-system choice and not a per user choice, I thing the negitive far exceed those of the current proposal. This is also fails my KISS tests. This would soon grow into a maze of semantic-free symlinks. > C) Don't add this source to ON, but rather push the current proposal's > pkg creation and glue out to an external consolidation; Sun would then > co-ship a release of that consolidation's packages with ON. (This > really starts to smell like blastwave, sunfreeware and friends) > [+] new users see the combined environment > [+] existing users do as well > [+] Motivated admins could build a newer package on their own and > upgrade to it; such an upgrade would "just work" with Sun's > own > upgrade processes; users would not see any difference between > the pre and post "gnu upgrade". And where and how would this install? Would it overwrite /usr/bin utilities? Would Sun still support the system? Who provides and supports the components seems orthoginal to where they install? Why again are we discussing this in the context of this case? > Personally, I really like "C", but it presumes that stability, > dependency and > release-engineering concerns could be addressed (I think they can be). > > -John I gotta say, I prefer the current proposal to any of these. - jek3 From bart.smaalders@sun.com Fri Jan 26 18:15:34 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0R2FXEP024347 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 18:15:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0R2FRGj010861; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 10:15:29 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCI000038XRVN00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 18:15:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from engmail3mpk.sfbay.Sun.COM ([129.146.11.26]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCI0003R8XRYK90@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 18:15:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from zion.eng.sun.com (zion.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.17.75]) by engmail3mpk.sfbay.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0R2FNi0021092; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 18:15:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from [129.146.228.109] (cyber [129.146.228.109]) by zion.eng.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7) with ESMTP id l0R2FNtw025887; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 18:15:23 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 18:15:04 -0800 From: Bart Smaalders Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <45BA9FC0.6050302@sun.com> To: Joseph Kowalski Cc: John Plocher , barts@eng.sun.com, gww@eng.sun.com, Joerg Schilling , PSARC-EXT@sun.com, Marcel Telka , Darren.Reed@sun.com Message-id: <45BAB5A8.6030900@Sun.COM> Organization: Sun Microsystems MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45B7DE7F.705@sun.com> <45B8DD89.8020309@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125170857.GZ12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8E642.3090006@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125173913.GC12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8F1B3.7080302@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125182042.GG12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8F77D.2060707@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125184202.GJ12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8FDA2.8040000@BigBandNet.COM> <45B90BF4.5020806@Sun.Com> <45B90E41.7030204@BigBandNet.COM> <45B91F15.2070804@Sun.Com> <45B92138.6040307@sun.com> <45B929EE.6090101@Sun.Com> <45B92FF5.9010105@sun.com> <45BA12AA.9020708@BigBandNet.COM> <45BA7E0E.5090809@sun.com> <45BA8B0E.6030400@Sun.Com> <45BA960D.4040405@Sun.Com> <45BA9FC0.6050302@sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.8 (X11/20061204) Status: RO Content-Length: 1767 We (OpenSolaris developers) wish to deliver a functionally complete system. It is not a kit car of parts to be assembled by skilled users. To that end, the default install should not require mucking around with PATH, etc, to find all the software we ship with OpenSolaris. To that end, I think the proposal as presented obeys the principle of least surprise, and should work "out of the box" ("off the dvd?") for the maximal number of users. Users who wish to customize the bits we deliver into a more pleasing form have several options: 1 They can select between alternate environments provided with OpenSolaris using their PATH variable. 2 They can create a ~user/bin that is a forest of symlinks into various parts of the system to create their own pastiche mixing traditional Solaris, xpg4, ucb and gnu commands. 3 They can choose to not install all of the packages that are part of whatever OpenSolaris distro they're running, and provide more desirable bits themselves, either locally or via NFS. In any case, a selection of /usr/bin as the default install location for useful binaries of any provenance enables the maximum number of users and does not forestall either substitution or removal of unwanted components. Attempting to confine exogenous software to alternate locations does nothing to facilitate its replacement with alternative versions, nor does it help indicate what license it was shipped with or what level of support might be expected. The sole result of moving various components of the system into various directories has been to make the system harder to use. It's time we stopped doing this. - Bart -- Bart Smaalders Solaris Kernel Performance barts@cyber.eng.sun.com http://blogs.sun.com/barts From schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de Sat Jan 27 03:59:43 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0RBxfNl000982 for ; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 03:59:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0RBxVaA014079; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 19:59:34 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCI00G01ZZ8G500@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 03:59:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwkea-mail-4.sun.com ([192.18.42.26]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCI008PVZZ85X60@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 03:59:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay23.sun.com (relay23.sun.com [192.12.251.54] (may be forged)) by nwkea-mail-4.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l0RBxVW4021667; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 03:59:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from mms27es.sun.com ([150.143.232.134] [150.143.232.134]) by relay23.sun.com with ESMTP; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 11:59:31 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay21.sun.com (relay21.sun.com [192.12.251.14]) by mms27es.sun.com with ESMTP; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 11:59:29 +0000 (Z) Received: from mailhub.fokus.fraunhofer.de ([193.174.154.14] [193.174.154.14]) by relay21.sun.com with ESMTP; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 11:59:28 +0000 (Z) Received: from burner.fokus.fraunhofer.de (burner [10.147.65.166]) by mailhub.fokus.fraunhofer.de (8.11.6p2/8.11.6) with ESMTP id l0RBxR906930; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 12:59:27 +0100 (MET) Received: (from jes@localhost) by burner.fokus.fraunhofer.de (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/Submit) id l0RBvRp2012815; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 12:57:27 +0100 (CET) Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 12:57:27 +0100 From: Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (Joerg Schilling) Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <45BA960D.4040405@Sun.Com> Sender: schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de To: John.Plocher@sun.com Cc: PSARC-EXT@sun.com, Marcel.Telka@sun.com, jek3@sun.com, gww@eng.sun.com, Darren.Reed@sun.com, barts@eng.sun.com Message-id: <45bb3e27.sdIPMJgMMBd3AXIR%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45B7DE7F.705@sun.com> <45B8DD89.8020309@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125170857.GZ12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8E642.3090006@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125173913.GC12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8F1B3.7080302@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125182042.GG12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8F77D.2060707@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125184202.GJ12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8FDA2.8040000@BigBandNet.COM> <45B90BF4.5020806@Sun.Com> <45B90E41.7030204@BigBandNet.COM> <45B91F15.2070804@Sun.Com> <45B92138.6040307@sun.com> <45B929EE.6090101@Sun.Com> <45B92FF5.9010105@sun.com> <45BA12AA.9020708@BigBandNet.COM> <45BA7E0E.5090809@sun.com> <45BA8B0E.6030400@Sun.Com> <45BA960D.4040405@Sun.Com> User-Agent: nail 11.22 3/20/05 Status: RO Content-Length: 1664 John Plocher wrote: > > Joseph Kowalski wrote: > > What would the counter proposal be? Everything I can think of has some > > similar case that will not work. > > I see several alternatives: > > A) Put all the stuff in /usr/gnu, modify /etc/default/login to add /usr/gnu to PATH > [+] new users see the combined environment > [-] existing users that didn't set their PATH to include the initial > system settings (PATH=$PATH:...) don't > [-] all users that wish to interpose their own version are forced to > explicitly set PATH to override the default Important in order to attract less informed linux users: - Include /usr/ccs/bin and /usr/sbin to user's PATH to make users able to compile and to use programs like traceroute out of the box, alternatively make there programs appear in /usr/bin - /usr/ccs/bin should on the other side not be part of root's PATH. ... All the other proposals still do not deal with the problems of /usr/sfw nor with the current proposal for /usr/gnu. In order to avoid these problems, it is important to find a solutions for name conflicts - of type (make, tar, cpio, pax, ...) - as well as of type generic file "compare", vs. Image-"compare" from Authors like imagemagic that do not check for existing other OSS programs of the same name. Jörg -- EMail:joerg@schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin js@cs.tu-berlin.de (uni) schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily From sch@rosseau.sfbay.sun.com Mon Jan 29 15:42:35 2007 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0TNgZEH023070 for ; Mon, 29 Jan 2007 15:42:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0TNgZoR017731 for <@sunmail1brm.central.sun.com:PSARC-EXT@sun.com>; Mon, 29 Jan 2007 15:42:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCN00F03LUZDL00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Mon, 29 Jan 2007 16:42:35 -0700 (MST) Received: from sfbaymail2sca.sfbay.sun.com ([129.145.155.42]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCN00D1ELUY10D0@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Mon, 29 Jan 2007 16:42:34 -0700 (MST) Received: from rosseau.sfbay.sun.com (rosseau.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.228.252]) by sfbaymail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.10/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0TNgYHd007637 for ; Mon, 29 Jan 2007 15:42:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from rosseau.sfbay.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rosseau.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l0TNgYqI027343; Mon, 29 Jan 2007 15:42:34 -0800 (PST) Received: (from sch@localhost) by rosseau.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/Submit) id l0TNgXCj027342; Mon, 29 Jan 2007 15:42:34 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 15:42:33 -0800 From: Stephen Hahn Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu In-reply-to: <20070122200249.GA25931@eng.sun.com> To: PSARC-EXT@sun.com Cc: Bart Smaalders Message-id: <20070129234233.GB26985@eng.sun.com> Organization: Solaris Kernel Development; Sun Microsystems, Inc. MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <20070122200249.GA25931@eng.sun.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.7i Status: RO Content-Length: 11542 Thanks to all for their input over the past days. I've updated the case, made an initial response to issues (synthesizing a few issues from mail feedback), and also made corrections to the dependent cases. Here's the revised /usr/gnu case. - Stephen ---- | PSARC/2007/047 /usr/gnu Stephen Hahn (sch@sun.com), Rainer Orth (ro@techfak.uni-bielefeld.de), and Bart Smaalders (barts@eng.sun.com) ident "$Hg$ SMI" 1. Summary A new directory hierarchy, to contain otherwise-name-conflicting GNU utilities under their original names, is proposed. A guideline for the provision of 'g'-prefixed variants in /usr/bin is also presented. | This case seeks Patch release binding. 2. Discussion In an attempt to provide a more complete offering for software developers on OpenSolaris distributions (as well as more general goals of including useful software), this case proposes the introduction of /usr/gnu as a location for alternate implementations of standard tools produced by the GNU project. This case supplements PSARC/2005/185, "Enabling serendipitous discovery" [1]. | The goals of the two cases are aligned; this case proposes refinements to the handling of specific scenarios. For the purposes of determining candidates for the GNU environment, the GNU packages of the FSF/UNESCO Free Software Directory are | considered the authoritative list [2]. This case, therefore, does | not determine how conflicting variant implementations from other | sources could be integrated into the filesystem(5) namespace. It | does, however, assume that there is no OSS collection of variant | implementations of equal significance--in terms of acceptance, | utilization, and dependencies--to the FSF/GNU collection. 2.1. Expected use Much like the use of the XPG4 [3], XPG6 [4], and SunOS/BSD compatibility environments, the expected use of the /usr/gnu environment is to prefer its binary components to the system defaults, via a setting like PATH=/usr/gnu/bin:...:/usr/bin Traditionally, the commands environments are incomplete: they do not provide entries for each and every command available in /usr/bin. In the past, the environments have also been proper subsets of the system default commands: there are no commands that are not also present in the system's default command environment. In the case that an environment composed of the non-conflicting GNU | components plus the historical variants is desired, PATH=/usr/bin:... is sufficient. The manual page path will be managed similarly. (Use of the per-section ordering support man(1) allows in MANPATH was considered, but is not suitable for heterogeneous environments.) Extended discussion led to an aesthetic preference for a complete environment, in which all components of the installed upstream package were in their normal locations within /usr/gnu. (We return to this point briefly in Section 2.5.) Although an environment could be further modified to be a full alternative commands environment, that aspect is left to a future case. 2.2. Reliance on /usr/gnu/bin utilities The individual utilities' stability levels dictate their appropriateness for use by other components. 2.3. Utility parity requirements PSARC, in its opinion for PSARC/2005/683 [5 - 6], made policy a technical requirement that XPG4 and XPG6 extensions be also made available in the /usr/bin variant of the affected utility. This policy is not a requirement for the /usr/gnu environment; project teams may choose to enhance partially or completely the /usr/bin variant as part of providing a /usr/gnu utility. (As an aside, project teams stuck on replacement of, enhancement of, or providing an additional variant for a particular command should recognize that their decision may have architectural aspects--shared components and comparative stabilites, for example--but is primarily an economic one. For instance, if an upstream variant is abandoned or undergoing remarkable change, then it is unlikely to have | economic advantages over enhancing a known variant.) 2.4. 'g' Prefixing Historically, introduction of GNU utilities into /usr/bin has been done with a 'g' character prefixed to the utility name. This proposal amends this practice: the 'g'-prefixed variant should be provided if already introduced. In cases where another operating system has provided a 'g'-prefixed variant, the project team introducing an otherwise-name-conflicting GNU component may choose to also provide one; otherwise, additional 'g'-prefixed components in /usr/bin (or any other path) are discouraged. GNU components that do not conflict with existing or anticipated components in the system's default commands environment should not be placed in /usr/gnu, and do not require 'g'-prefixing. Exceptions should reference specific examples--other operating systems, dependent software, etc.--supporting the common use or inclusion of the 'g'-prefixed name. Both 'g'-prefixed and non-conflicting interfaces will provide access via /usr/share/man to their manual pages. (Such access may be implemented via symbolic links, for example.) 2.5. Library components Although the primary focus of this case is the introduction of /usr/gnu for commands components, we can also make recommendations for the provision of library components under /usr/gnu. Similar to the commands, conflicting libraries should be placed in /usr/gnu/lib. In addition, non-conflicting libraries that depend on a conflicting library should also be placed only in /usr/gnu/lib. Otherwise, non-conflicting libraries should be placed in /usr/gnu/lib, with appropriate symbolic links in the appropriate /usr/lib subdirectories. At this point, it is recommended that components that introduce a "libexec" directory [7] leave that directory under the /usr/gnu hierarchy. Once a non-GNU component introduces /usr/libexec, this recommendation can be reviewed. 2.6. Other filesystem locations With the introduction of zones, customizable directories must be kept out of /usr to make sparse zones practical. This case reserves /etc/gnu and /var/gnu and their subdirectories as locations for customizable files required by the tools present in the environment, but does not mandate their introduction until an explicit consumer | is proposed. Since the GNU components, while the primary sources, are not the sole sources of Info format documentation, and due to the nature of the Info "dir" file, the Info files shall be installed in /usr/share/info. This directory and /usr/gnu/share/info are expected to be equivalent--separated sets of Info documents (GNU components alone and the complete Info set) are not required by this proposal. Otherwise, and with the exception of the 'g'-prefixed components and the recommendation on library components above, the /usr/gnu hierarchy will be populated in accordance with the GNU coding standards [7]. (The specific exceptions are that the localstatedir and sharedstatedir settings will be "/var/gnu" and "/var/gnu/com", respectively, and the sysconfdir will be "/etc/gnu".) The most common directories are given in the Interface Table in Section 3. | (The preceeding paragraph implies that use of /usr/gnu/var and | /usr/gnu/etc is forbidden; at a minimum, invocations of an Autoconf | configure script must read | | ./configure | --prefix=/usr/gnu | --localstatedir=/var/gnu | --sharedstatedir=/var/gnu/com | --sysconfdir=/etc/gnu | | or have installation rules that are equivalent, barring | case-specific exceptions.) | | 2.7. Manual page modifications | | Because the commands involved may change at distinctly different | rates than the Single Unix specification, it seems prudent to modify | the manual pages of GNU components separately from the manual page | of a conflicting base components. (In contrast, OpenSolaris manual | pages have unified base and XPG4/XPG6 variants into a single page.) | | On each manual page associated with a conflicting command, a | sentence similar to the following will be added to the "NOTES" | section: | | The FSF/GNU implementation of the 'ls' command can be found at | /usr/gnu/bin/ls. (See gnu(5) for additional details on FSF/GNU | commands.) | | The "SEE ALSO" section will minimally point to gnu(5). | | Furthermore, the filesystem(5) page will carry an additional | paragraph in the /usr section, such as | | /usr/gnu | | GNU commands environment: executables, documentation, and | supporting files. | | with gnu(5) additionally referenced in the "SEE ALSO" section. | | 2.8. Packaging and availability In general, project teams are strongly encouraged to match a package boundary to the upstream source boundary. By default, these new packages should be made available in either the User or Developer metacluster, to increase the likelihood of their availability in typical installations. | 2.9. Future possibilities One possible future direction is to extract the legacy tools from /usr/{bin,sbin} and provide them in a new, stable path like /usr/sunos/{bin,sbin}. The selection of the top-level /usr components can then be made a configurable aspect of the system, via one or more mechanisms. This change might also involve the provision of complete commands environments, as mentioned in Section 2.1. 3. Interfaces /usr/share/info Directory Committed /usr/gnu Directory hierarchy Committed /bin /sbin /include /lib /libexec /share /share/info /share/man /etc/gnu Directory hierarchy Committed /var/gnu Directory hierarchy Committed /com 4. References [1] B. Smaalders, PSARC/2005/185: Enabling serendipitous discovery, 2005. [2] Free Software Foundation, FSF/UNESCO Free Software Directory, "All GNU Packages", 2006 (http://directory.fsf.org/GNU/). [3] J. Tornatore, PSARC/1994/161: XCU4 Conformance (XPG4 Commands/Utilities component), 1994. [4] J. Farley, PSARC/2003/418 SUSv3 Project Update, 2003. [5] C. Fields, PSARC/2005/683: Add /usr/xpg4/bin/crontab and /usr/xpg6/bin/crontab, 2005. [6] B. Sommerfeld et al, PSARC/2005/683 Opinion, 2005. [7] Free Software Foundation, GNU Coding Standards, 2006 (http://www.gnu.org/prep/standards/standards.html#Directory-Variables). -- Stephen Hahn, PhD Solaris Kernel Development, Sun Microsystems stephen.hahn@sun.com http://blogs.sun.com/sch/ From sch@rosseau.sfbay.sun.com Mon Jan 29 15:43:45 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0TNhjLc023087 for ; Mon, 29 Jan 2007 15:43:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0TNhcKh010833 for <@sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-EXT@sun.com>; Mon, 29 Jan 2007 23:43:44 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCN00B07LWTXO00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Mon, 29 Jan 2007 15:43:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from sfbaymail2sca.sfbay.sun.com ([129.145.155.42]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCN004K4LWT9480@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Mon, 29 Jan 2007 15:43:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from rosseau.sfbay.sun.com (rosseau.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.228.252]) by sfbaymail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.10/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0TNhf3p008116 for ; Mon, 29 Jan 2007 15:43:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from rosseau.sfbay.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rosseau.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l0TNhffW027352; Mon, 29 Jan 2007 15:43:41 -0800 (PST) Received: (from sch@localhost) by rosseau.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/Submit) id l0TNhfrl027351; Mon, 29 Jan 2007 15:43:41 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 15:43:41 -0800 From: Stephen Hahn Subject: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: response to issues To: PSARC-EXT@sun.com Cc: Bart Smaalders Message-id: <20070129234341.GC26985@eng.sun.com> Organization: Solaris Kernel Development; Sun Microsystems, Inc. MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.7i Status: RO Content-Length: 8777 I've added three issues of my own to the bottom; sch-0 is the "why are you doing this?" issue. - Stephen ---- jdc-1 The proposal selects /usr/gnu as FSF/UNESCO Free Software, but why is this the important or useful determinant? More to the point: what software or user actually targets or would target operation in an "FSF environment" on this basis? It's easy to construct an argument for a "similar to [insert distribution here] Linux" environment for people adopting Solaris, or for those using Solaris within a mixed environment (something that likely is true for _most_ Sun customers). However, FSF isn't precisely Linux, because distributions of the latter are typically a superset. Similarly, "XPG4" is a complete, standards-conformant environment. Users expect it to exist on other systems, so there's an argument for allowing selection of that environment. Is there an equivalent to "the GNU environment" on any other system? If not, then what interoperability story are we trying to sell? The choice of the GNU packages of the FSF/UNESCO list is an attempt to recognize the FSF implementations of longstanding Unix commands as a second source of these commands, with wide acceptance across operating systems. In particular, this wide acceptance means that various other software components of interest to OpenSolaris are becoming dependent on the FSF/GNU implementations, at least in the build phase. This proposal attempts to share the effort of maintaining these tools, by virtue of housing them in the SFW consolidation. (See sch-0 below for more.) I don't believe there is an equivalent competing set of command variants with the same attributes. Although one could read this case as calling for the complete set of GNU packages, it does not do so--it is providing a means of resolving included packages that provide a variant implementation of existing commands. As such, the notion of equivalence of environments isn't part of the current argument; the variants being included are included because the project team (or future teams) believe the variant of sufficient utility to justify integration. jdc-2 Where are we heading? The case hints at /usr/sunos. Do we really want a forest of /usr/foo directories for different flavors? Is that an architecturally viable system? It's of course doable; the question is whether it's wise, and what the criteria are for creating a new /usr/$THING directory. (Is "gnu" the last one?) My expectation is that /usr/gnu is indeed the only one of its kind that we need (although in five or more years I may be shown wrong). The /usr/sunos notion is a suggestion for fairness in managing name conflicts, so that, from a packaging perspective /usr/bin is in fact only populated with non-conflicting commands. Other technologies are postulated to make /usr/bin appear to be complete, with a particular subset of variants selected. (But that's why it's in "Future Work".) As I note in jdc-1, I don't believe there is an additional large set of widely used variants that would necessitate a similar /usr/$THING, future standards efforts notwithstanding. jdc-3 Nit: make it clear that /usr/gnu/etc and /usr/gnu/var are explicitly disallowed, and thus just setting the basedir isn't enough for integration. Text added. jmp-0 Scope: Is this an OpenSolaris-wide proposal or a Solaris-specific one? i.e., would we expect Nextenta to follow this lead? My working position is that ARC review is a choice of each Community providing a consolidation. Solaris, as a Distribution, elects to make itself out of only consolidations that have pursued ARC review. Nexenta, as a Distribution, may or may not choose to take the published output of each consolidation; further, it may choose to take only the parts of each published consolidation it deems interesting--which could in fact lead to outcomes other than those catalogued in the ARC cases that led to the current form of a particular consolidation. So, this is an SFW-specific proposal, that various OpenSolaris distributions may choose to follow by virtue of including the SFW consolidation's output. jmp-1 This proposal puts a set of OSS utilities in /usr/bin where they become intermingled with core Solaris commands. It also puts conflicting commands in /usr/gnu. This lets the user choose between Solaris versions 1st + Solaris-GNU versions 2nd (PATH=/usr/bin:/usr/gnu) and Solaris-GNU versions 1st + Solaris versions 2nd (PATH=/usr/gnu:/usr/bin) It does not allow for Solaris versions 1st + User-Provided-GNU versions 2nd That is, if I download/configure/make my own version of the GNU utilities, I am faced with either using them to the exclusion of any Solaris versions (PATH=/myGNU:/usr/bin) or not using them at all. There is no way for me to use the Solaris versions 1st and my GNU versions 2nd. (I think a key aspect of this case is that it is primarily focussed on managing conflicting binaries. As a result, the first example, PATH=/usr/bin:/usr/gnu/bin, isn't actually fully simplified--it is equivalent to PATH=/usr/bin.) I believe the issue raised concerns the provision of a /usr/local/bin/foo, and selecting its preference on a per-command basis against /usr/bin/foo and /usr/gnu/bin/foo. It is true that the path mechanism in Unix always chooses the first executable found in the list of paths given in the environment, which leads to relatively crude outcomes when considering individual commands implementations. The proposal attempts to utilize the solution in place for other command variant collections (UCB, XPG4, XPG6). Remediation is available to local sites by placing a preferred subset of commands and placing the path to that subset ahead of the default entries, or via omission of the SFW package(s) delivering conflicting functionality. This omission may cause other, dependent packages to fail installation. sch-0 Why are you doing this? The proposal to add /usr/gnu as a filesystem tree is based on the costs derived from (a) the absence of these implementations on a system based on OpenSolaris consolidations, and (b) the reliance on filename prefixing to resolve conflicting variants of well-known Unix commands. The JDS and SFW consolidations bear these costs in common, but were providing duplicate solutions in the form of carrying a private build environment (JDS) or porting software to utilize alternate command variants, or alternate command names (SFW). More recently, the Xen project in ON declared dependencies on a variety of OSS components for its build and operation. sch-1 /usr/bin should not be populated with OSS/GPL-licensed software. The SFW consolidation (and the other active consolidations) attempt to be pragmatic about the software they include: if a large collection of developers or users would benefit from the inclusion of some software, and that software can be maintained at the declared stability levels while remaining within the resource constraints of the project teams involved, then the software is a suitable candidate for integration. Comments about a potentially license-restricted set of commands, perhaps achieved via packaging or new filesystem locations, are interesting, but contradict existing cases, like PSARC/2005/185, "Enabling serendipitous discovery", as well as the other OSS inclusion precedents. Changing this direction will require discussion beyond the scope of this case. sch-2 What about other implementations of various Unix commands? Although this case expresses the position that the FSF/GNU collection is the de facto alternative to the command variants historically associated with OpenSolaris, it does not actually propose a command variant replacement policy. The historic variants remain in /usr/bin, and remain the default choice. New command variants, on their individual merits, can of course be added via integration in an OpenSolaris consolidation. Such additions should be viewed in two parts: a means of resolving name conflicts with existing variants (usually by executable name prefixes, or alternate names), and a proposal that the default variant be replaced by the new variant. As has been observed in various cases, the latter is substantially more involved. -- Stephen Hahn, PhD Solaris Kernel Development, Sun Microsystems stephen.hahn@sun.com http://blogs.sun.com/sch/ From David.Comay@sun.com Tue Jan 30 11:55:45 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0UJtipR022510 for ; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 11:55:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0UJtaeZ012168 for <@sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-EXT@Sun.COM>; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 19:55:43 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCP00D0760SQB00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for PSARC-EXT@Sun.COM (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@Sun.COM); Tue, 30 Jan 2007 11:55:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from izimbra.SFBay.Sun.COM ([129.146.226.141]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCP005C560SLF80@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for PSARC-EXT@Sun.COM (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@Sun.COM); Tue, 30 Jan 2007 11:55:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by izimbra.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l0UJtZIL110491; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 11:55:40 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 11:55:34 -0800 (PST) From: David.Comay@sun.com Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu In-reply-to: <20070129234233.GB26985@eng.sun.com> Sender: comay@izimbra.SFBay.Sun.COM To: Stephen Hahn Cc: PSARC-EXT@sun.com, Bart Smaalders Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <20070122200249.GA25931@eng.sun.com> <20070129234233.GB26985@eng.sun.com> Status: RO Content-Length: 1167 Stephen, > Extended discussion led to an aesthetic preference for a complete > environment, in which all components of the installed upstream > package were in their normal locations within /usr/gnu. (We return > to this point briefly in Section 2.5.) Could you please confirm that this means that non-conflicting GNU utilities will appear in *both* /usr/bin and /usr/gnu/bin. Using "shred" as an example, the following names will appear in the file system name-space /usr/bin/shred /usr/gnu/bin/shred (with one being a link to the other) I only bring this up (again) since there seemed to be some confusion in the first around of psarc-ext review. Perhaps the confusion is just mine but see for example http://www.opensolaris.org/jive/message.jspa?messageID=86586#86586 http://www.opensolaris.org/jive/message.jspa?messageID=86630#86630 http://www.opensolaris.org/jive/message.jspa?messageID=86746#86746 http://www.opensolaris.org/jive/message.jspa?messageID=86757#86757 http://www.opensolaris.org/jive/message.jspa?messageID=86746#86746 http://www.opensolaris.org/jive/message.jspa?messageID=86814#86814 Thanks, dsc From jek3@sun.com Tue Jan 30 12:55:00 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0UKt0kV023783 for ; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 12:55:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0UKsrXQ000716; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 20:54:57 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCP00G058RJAA00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 12:54:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from jurassic.eng.sun.com ([129.146.56.144]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCP002X38RI8U60@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 12:54:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from [129.150.12.53] (vpn-129-150-12-53.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.12.53]) by jurassic.eng.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l0UKsrfE712224; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 12:54:54 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 10:52:59 -1000 From: Joseph Kowalski Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu In-reply-to: To: David.Comay@sun.com Cc: Stephen Hahn , PSARC-EXT@sun.com, Bart Smaalders Message-id: <45BFB02B.3030903@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <20070122200249.GA25931@eng.sun.com> <20070129234233.GB26985@eng.sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060925) Status: RO Content-Length: 900 David.Comay@sun.com wrote: > Stephen, > >> Extended discussion led to an aesthetic preference for a complete >> environment, in which all components of the installed upstream >> package were in their normal locations within /usr/gnu. (We return >> to this point briefly in Section 2.5.) > > Could you please confirm that this means that non-conflicting GNU > utilities will appear in *both* /usr/bin and /usr/gnu/bin. Using > "shred" as an example, the following names will appear in the file > system name-space > > /usr/bin/shred > /usr/gnu/bin/shred > > (with one being a link to the other) Without commenting on what the spec is, let's just say there will be discussion about this. We've set a precedence with /usr/xpg* and /usr/ucbbin and I believe we should remain consistent. Let's not start a thread on this now. Just bring your views tomorrow. - jek3 From sch@rosseau.sfbay.sun.com Tue Jan 30 13:42:23 2007 Received: from sunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM (sunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.17]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0ULgNA1025679 for ; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 13:42:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.11.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0ULgMk14755 for <@sunmail1brm.central.sun.com:PSARC-EXT@Sun.COM>; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 14:42:22 -0700 (MST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCP0085LAYLDN00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for PSARC-EXT@Sun.COM (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@Sun.COM); Tue, 30 Jan 2007 14:42:21 -0700 (MST) Received: from sfbaymail1sca.SFBay.Sun.COM ([129.145.154.35]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCP003MCAYL3360@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for PSARC-EXT@Sun.COM (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@Sun.COM); Tue, 30 Jan 2007 14:42:21 -0700 (MST) Received: from rosseau.sfbay.sun.com (rosseau.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.228.252]) by sfbaymail1sca.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0ULgKAT023966; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 13:42:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from rosseau.sfbay.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rosseau.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l0ULgKg9028102; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 13:42:20 -0800 (PST) Received: (from sch@localhost) by rosseau.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/Submit) id l0ULgKFF028101; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 13:42:20 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 13:42:20 -0800 From: Stephen Hahn Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu In-reply-to: To: David.Comay@sun.com Cc: PSARC-EXT@sun.com, Bart Smaalders Message-id: <20070130214220.GB28029@eng.sun.com> Organization: Solaris Kernel Development; Sun Microsystems, Inc. MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <20070122200249.GA25931@eng.sun.com> <20070129234233.GB26985@eng.sun.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.7i Status: RO Content-Length: 1593 * David.Comay@Sun.COM [2007-01-30 11:55]: > Stephen, > > > Extended discussion led to an aesthetic preference for a complete > > environment, in which all components of the installed upstream > > package were in their normal locations within /usr/gnu. (We return > > to this point briefly in Section 2.5.) > > Could you please confirm that this means that non-conflicting GNU > utilities will appear in *both* /usr/bin and /usr/gnu/bin. Using > "shred" as an example, the following names will appear in the file > system name-space > > /usr/bin/shred > /usr/gnu/bin/shred > > (with one being a link to the other) > > I only bring this up (again) since there seemed to be some confusion in > the first around of psarc-ext review. Perhaps the confusion is just > mine but see for example > > http://www.opensolaris.org/jive/message.jspa?messageID=86586#86586 > http://www.opensolaris.org/jive/message.jspa?messageID=86630#86630 > http://www.opensolaris.org/jive/message.jspa?messageID=86746#86746 > http://www.opensolaris.org/jive/message.jspa?messageID=86757#86757 > http://www.opensolaris.org/jive/message.jspa?messageID=86746#86746 > http://www.opensolaris.org/jive/message.jspa?messageID=86814#86814 Yes, this is what is currently being proposed. The point raised in the earlier discussions was that, without the link, someone might view the /usr/gnu/bin collection as an incomplete installation. - Stephen -- Stephen Hahn, PhD Solaris Kernel Development, Sun Microsystems stephen.hahn@sun.com http://blogs.sun.com/sch/ From kyle.mcdonald@bigbandnet.com Tue Jan 30 14:05:28 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0UM5RBk026821 for ; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 14:05:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0UM5GLp021934; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 22:05:18 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCP00405C0SSK00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 14:05:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.98.43]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCP002DPC0S8BD0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 14:05:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay11.sun.com (relay11.sun.com [217.140.40.14] (may be forged)) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l0UM5F02023371; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 15:05:15 -0700 (MST) Received: from mms13es.sun.com ([160.41.223.54] [160.41.223.54]) by relay11.sun.com with ESMTP; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 22:05:14 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay13.sun.com (relay13.sun.com [217.140.40.54]) by mms13es.sun.com with ESMTP; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 22:05:14 +0000 (Z) Received: from exprod8og55.obsmtp.com ([64.18.3.92] [64.18.3.92]) by relay13.sun.com; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 22:05:13 +0000 (Z) Received: from source ([65.126.230.68]) by exprod8ob55.obsmtp.com ([64.18.7.12]) with SMTP; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 14:03:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([10.30.8.236]) by wsb-srvr-02.bigbandnet.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Tue, 30 Jan 2007 17:03:58 -0500 Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 17:03:53 -0500 From: Kyle McDonald Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <45BA9FC0.6050302@sun.com> To: Joseph Kowalski Cc: John Plocher , barts@eng.sun.com, gww@eng.sun.com, Joerg Schilling , PSARC-EXT@sun.com, Marcel Telka , Darren.Reed@sun.com Message-id: <45BFC0C9.1080503@BigBandNet.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45B7DE7F.705@sun.com> <45B8DD89.8020309@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125170857.GZ12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8E642.3090006@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125173913.GC12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8F1B3.7080302@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125182042.GG12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8F77D.2060707@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125184202.GJ12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8FDA2.8040000@BigBandNet.COM> <45B90BF4.5020806@Sun.Com> <45B90E41.7030204@BigBandNet.COM> <45B91F15.2070804@Sun.Com> <45B92138.6040307@sun.com> <45B929EE.6090101@Sun.Com> <45B92FF5.9010105@sun.com> <45BA12AA.9020708@BigBandNet.COM> <45BA7E0E.5090809@sun.com> <45BA8B0E.6030400@Sun.Com> <45BA960D.4040405@Sun.Com> <45BA9FC0.6050302@sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 30 Jan 2007 22:03:58.0148 (UTC) FILETIME=[8A7E3040:01C744BA] Status: RO Content-Length: 2644 Joseph Kowalski wrote: > John Plocher wrote: >> > Joseph Kowalski wrote: >> > What would the counter proposal be? Everything I can think of has >> some >> > similar case that will not work. >> >> I see several alternatives: >> >> A) Put all the stuff in /usr/gnu, modify /etc/default/login to add >> /usr/gnu to PATH >> [+] new users see the combined environment >> [-] existing users that didn't set their PATH to include the >> initial >> system settings (PATH=$PATH:...) don't >> [-] all users that wish to interpose their own version are >> forced to >> explicitly set PATH to override the default > Do you remember the last time Rob went ballistic before he left? It > was over > login adding something to the users path. After that rucus, I think > this is a non-starter, > and should be. We simply shouldn't muck with PATH. Is there a link to the discussion that ensued? I'd like to read it. >> B) Put all the stuff in /usr/gnu, provide a pkg of symlinks into >> /usr/bin >> (etc - see my earlier mail) >> [+] new users see the combined environment >> [+] existing users do as well >> [-] The choice of installing the symlink pkg or not affects >> all users >> on a system, not just those that wish to interpose their >> own version. >> new users of systems without the symlinks, but with an >> alternate set >> of gnu utilities would have access to neither. > Since this is a per-system choice and not a per user choice, I thing > the negitive > far exceed those of the current proposal. > The alternatives are worse. If I'm forced to not instlall this software at all in order to make visible the version I want, then that is also not only 'per-system' but also runs a big risk of breaking dependencies of other software I do want to install. At least if it is installed, but out of the way (the symlinks aren't installed) then software that depends on it can still function (it'll know where to look.) And the Admin is free to either educate users on what to change, or can update /etc/default/login, /etc/.login, /etc/profile or user's dot files. Plus by default the links package is installed, and only those who want this flexibility need to go looking for it. Sounds like the best of all worlds to me. > This is also fails my KISS tests. This would soon grow into a maze of > semantic-free symlinks. This initially looks like many links all from one directory to another. But yes I can see where the desire to link all over the place may arise in the future. This would have to be managed. -Kyle From kyle.mcdonald@bigbandnet.com Tue Jan 30 14:13:34 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0UMDXNB027115 for ; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 14:13:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0UMDKLh023983; Wed, 31 Jan 2007 06:13:25 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCP00501CE9OK00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 14:13:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com ([192.18.98.34]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCP002S9CE98BD0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 14:13:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay24.sun.com (ip192-12-251-74.block6.us.syntegra.com [192.12.251.74]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l0UMDKgJ002637; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 15:13:20 -0700 (MST) Received: from mms23es.sun.com ([150.143.232.54] [150.143.232.54]) by relay24.sun.com with ESMTP; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 22:13:20 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay24.sun.com (relay24.sun.com [192.12.251.74]) by mms23es.sun.com with ESMTP; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 22:13:18 +0000 (Z) Received: from exprod8og50.obsmtp.com ([64.18.3.82] [64.18.3.82]) by relay24.sun.com; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 22:02:20 +0000 (Z) Received: from source ([65.126.230.68]) by exprod8ob50.obsmtp.com ([64.18.7.12]) with SMTP; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 13:57:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([10.30.8.236]) by wsb-srvr-02.bigbandnet.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Tue, 30 Jan 2007 16:57:56 -0500 Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 16:57:53 -0500 From: Kyle McDonald Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <45BA960D.4040405@Sun.Com> To: John Plocher Cc: barts@eng.sun.com, gww@eng.sun.com, Joerg Schilling , Joseph Kowalski , PSARC-EXT@sun.com, Marcel Telka , Darren.Reed@sun.com Message-id: <45BFBF61.4040305@BigBandNet.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45B7DE7F.705@sun.com> <45B8DD89.8020309@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125170857.GZ12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8E642.3090006@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125173913.GC12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8F1B3.7080302@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125182042.GG12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8F77D.2060707@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125184202.GJ12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8FDA2.8040000@BigBandNet.COM> <45B90BF4.5020806@Sun.Com> <45B90E41.7030204@BigBandNet.COM> <45B91F15.2070804@Sun.Com> <45B92138.6040307@sun.com> <45B929EE.6090101@Sun.Com> <45B92FF5.9010105@sun.com> <45BA12AA.9020708@BigBandNet.COM> <45BA7E0E.5090809@sun.com> <45BA8B0E.6030400@Sun.Com> <45BA960D.4040405@Sun.Com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 30 Jan 2007 21:57:56.0380 (UTC) FILETIME=[B2DCC5C0:01C744B9] Status: RO Content-Length: 2286 John Plocher wrote: > > Joseph Kowalski wrote: > > What would the counter proposal be? Everything I can think of has some > > similar case that will not work. > > I see several alternatives: > > A) Put all the stuff in /usr/gnu, modify /etc/default/login to add > /usr/gnu to PATH > [+] new users see the combined environment > [-] existing users that didn't set their PATH to include the > initial > system settings (PATH=$PATH:...) don't > [-] all users that wish to interpose their own version are > forced to > explicitly set PATH to override the default > > B) Put all the stuff in /usr/gnu, provide a pkg of symlinks into /usr/bin > (etc - see my earlier mail) > [+] new users see the combined environment > [+] existing users do as well > [-] The choice of installing the symlink pkg or not affects all > users > on a system, not just those that wish to interpose their > own version. > new users of systems without the symlinks, but with an > alternate set > of gnu utilities would have access to neither. > I Think B I perfectly acceptable. It's true that the one negative is still system wide, but the admin who is choosing not to install it is free to make sure there are other ways for his users to find the tools.. either autoamtically or with effort as the admin see's fit. > C) Don't add this source to ON, but rather push the current proposal's > pkg creation and glue out to an external consolidation; Sun would then > co-ship a release of that consolidation's packages with ON. (This > really starts to smell like blastwave, sunfreeware and friends) > [+] new users see the combined environment > [+] existing users do as well > [+] Motivated admins could build a newer package on their own and > upgrade to it; such an upgrade would "just work" with Sun's > own > upgrade processes; users would not see any difference between > the pre and post "gnu upgrade". > > Personally, I really like "C", but it presumes that stability, > dependency and > release-engineering concerns could be addressed (I think they can be). > C seems idealistic, but also seems like much more work. -Kyle From kyle.mcdonald@bigbandnet.com Tue Jan 30 14:22:15 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0UMMEHx027256 for ; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 14:22:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0UMLukj027059; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 22:22:09 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCP00703CSW4L00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 14:22:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com ([192.18.98.34]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCP002S6CSU8ED0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 14:22:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay2.sun.com (relay2.sun.com [150.143.103.24] (may be forged)) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l0ULZ8K0013061; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 15:22:05 -0700 (MST) Received: from mms0ees.sun.com ([150.143.104.244] [150.143.104.244]) by relay2.sun.com with ESMTP; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 22:22:05 +0000 (Z) Received: from mms04bas.mms.us.syntegra.com (mms04bas.mms.us.syntegra.com [150.143.103.70]) by mms0ees.sun.com with ESMTP; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 22:22:05 +0000 (Z) Received: from exprod8og51.obsmtp.com ([64.18.3.84] [64.18.3.84]) by relay1.sun.com; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 22:22:05 +0000 (Z) Received: from source ([65.126.230.68]) by exprod8ob51.obsmtp.com ([64.18.7.12]) with SMTP; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 14:13:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([10.30.8.236]) by wsb-srvr-02.bigbandnet.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Tue, 30 Jan 2007 17:13:51 -0500 Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 17:13:44 -0500 From: Kyle McDonald Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <45BAB5A8.6030900@Sun.COM> To: Bart Smaalders Cc: Joseph Kowalski , barts@eng.sun.com, gww@eng.sun.com, Joerg Schilling , John Plocher , PSARC-EXT@sun.com, Marcel Telka , Darren.Reed@sun.com Message-id: <45BFC318.40105@BigBandNet.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45B7DE7F.705@sun.com> <45B8DD89.8020309@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125170857.GZ12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8E642.3090006@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125173913.GC12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8F1B3.7080302@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125182042.GG12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8F77D.2060707@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125184202.GJ12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8FDA2.8040000@BigBandNet.COM> <45B90BF4.5020806@Sun.Com> <45B90E41.7030204@BigBandNet.COM> <45B91F15.2070804@Sun.Com> <45B92138.6040307@sun.com> <45B929EE.6090101@Sun.Com> <45B92FF5.9010105@sun.com> <45BA12AA.9020708@BigBandNet.COM> <45BA7E0E.5090809@sun.com> <45BA8B0E.6030400@Sun.Com> <45BA960D.4040405@Sun.Com> <45BA9FC0.6050302@sun.com> <45BAB5A8.6030900@Sun.COM> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 30 Jan 2007 22:13:51.0074 (UTC) FILETIME=[EBE78420:01C744BB] Status: RO Content-Length: 2664 Bart Smaalders wrote: > > > We (OpenSolaris developers) wish to deliver a functionally > complete system. It is not a kit car of parts to be assembled > by skilled users. To that end, the default install should not > require mucking around with PATH, etc, to find all the software > we ship with OpenSolaris. At the same time you don't want to lose those 'skilled users' who want the flexibility to make the system work the way they want it to work. > > To that end, I think the proposal as presented obeys the > principle of least surprise, and should work "out of the > box" ("off the dvd?") for the maximal number of users. > The B option presented would work 'off the DVD' by default for all users. > Users who wish to customize the bits we deliver into a more > pleasing form have several options: > > 1 They can select between alternate environments provided > with OpenSolaris using their PATH variable. They will be unable to choose the combination of 'Solaris binaries that have Gnu conflicts' first , and then 'locally installed GNU binaries' second. That combination is impossible. > > 2 They can create a ~user/bin that is a forest of > symlinks into various parts of the system to create their > own pastiche mixing traditional Solaris, xpg4, ucb and gnu commands. > Since ~user/bin would generally be on the network, all the same issues with putting it before /usr/bin apply. Not to mention the Yuck! factor of many users each having to maintain a symlink farm. > 3 They can choose to not install all of the packages > that are part of whatever OpenSolaris distro they're > running, and provide more desirable bits themselves, > either locally or via NFS. > This eliminates choice on a per user level. It's only a chouce the admin can make. > In any case, a selection of /usr/bin as the default > install location for useful binaries of any provenance > enables the maximum number of users and does not forestall > either substitution or removal of unwanted components. > The softlink option in a post before this one (Option B) also enables the maximum number of users and also enables the flexibility for the admin to allow other combinations if desired. 'removal' isn't generally what is desired... at least not on a system-wide scale. Per user maybe. 'subsitution' is desirable but not in any way that forces removal or forces all users to accept it. In option B, if the admin chooses to leave out the links package, then it's up to that admin to educate, update, etc the users or thier settings to find these tools. By default everything will be available to all users which as I understand it is the goal. -Kyle From jek3@Sun.COM Tue Jan 30 17:17:27 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0V1HPCl004324 for ; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 17:17:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0V1GogM011382; Wed, 31 Jan 2007 09:17:20 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCP00F07KWS3N00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 17:17:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from jurassic.eng.sun.com ([129.146.58.166]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCP00BPGKWRMY90@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 17:17:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from [129.150.12.53] (vpn-129-150-12-53.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.12.53]) by jurassic.eng.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l0V1H43C805855; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 17:17:07 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 15:15:12 -1000 From: Joseph Kowalski Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <45BFC0C9.1080503@BigBandNet.COM> To: Kyle McDonald Cc: John Plocher , barts@eng.sun.com, gww@eng.sun.com, Joerg Schilling , PSARC-EXT@Sun.COM, Marcel Telka , Darren.Reed@Sun.COM Message-id: <45BFEDA0.7090104@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45B7DE7F.705@sun.com> <45B8DD89.8020309@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125170857.GZ12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8E642.3090006@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125173913.GC12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8F1B3.7080302@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125182042.GG12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8F77D.2060707@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125184202.GJ12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8FDA2.8040000@BigBandNet.COM> <45B90BF4.5020806@Sun.Com> <45B90E41.7030204@BigBandNet.COM> <45B91F15.2070804@Sun.Com> <45B92138.6040307@sun.com> <45B929EE.6090101@Sun.Com> <45B92FF5.9010105@sun.com> <45BA12AA.9020708@BigBandNet.COM> <45BA7E0E.5090809@sun.com> <45BA8B0E.6030400@Sun.Com> <45BA960D.4040405@Sun.Com> <45BA9FC0.6050302@sun.com> <45BFC0C9.1080503@BigBandNet.COM> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060925) Status: RO Content-Length: 1250 Kyle McDonald wrote: >> Do you remember the last time Rob went ballistic before he left? It >> was over >> login adding something to the users path. After that rucus, I think >> this is a non-starter, >> and should be. We simply shouldn't muck with PATH. > Is there a link to the discussion that ensued? I'd like to read it. For the record, that's Rob Gingell who had an employee number in the low triple digits. The last title he held was Chief Engineer. He left the company within the last year. There isn't a formal e-mail discussion on this. Suffice it to say that many customers complain very loudly when we've mucked with the PATH on login. A couple of years ago, one of the special customers who had Scott McNealy's phone number called him about the (context was cde). The Rob "ballistic" was Gnome. (Some actually thought that this event was the straw that broke the camel's back as far as Rob leaving - not true, but it did catch him when we was fairly grouchy. I know all the details of this event, because I was the one who made him aware of the issue.) Anyway, suffice it to say, we can't even consider mucking with the user's setting of PATH. Its a non-starter. We can debate the other options tomorrow. - jek3 From jek3@sun.com Tue Jan 30 17:22:55 2007 Received: from sunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM (sunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.17]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0V1MtAX004391 for ; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 17:22:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.11.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0V1Mlk14377; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 18:22:47 -0700 (MST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCP00D17L5XNH00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 17:22:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from jurassic.eng.sun.com ([129.146.224.130]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCP003JIL5U2C70@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 17:22:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from [129.150.12.53] (vpn-129-150-12-53.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.12.53]) by jurassic.eng.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l0V1MM4r807543; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 17:22:28 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 15:20:32 -1000 From: Joseph Kowalski Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <45BFC318.40105@BigBandNet.COM> To: Kyle McDonald Cc: Bart Smaalders , barts@eng.sun.com, gww@eng.sun.com, Joerg Schilling , John Plocher , PSARC-EXT@sun.com, Marcel Telka , Darren.Reed@sun.com Message-id: <45BFEEE0.60808@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45B7DE7F.705@sun.com> <45B8DD89.8020309@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125170857.GZ12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8E642.3090006@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125173913.GC12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8F1B3.7080302@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125182042.GG12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8F77D.2060707@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125184202.GJ12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8FDA2.8040000@BigBandNet.COM> <45B90BF4.5020806@Sun.Com> <45B90E41.7030204@BigBandNet.COM> <45B91F15.2070804@Sun.Com> <45B92138.6040307@sun.com> <45B929EE.6090101@Sun.Com> <45B92FF5.9010105@sun.com> <45BA12AA.9020708@BigBandNet.COM> <45BA7E0E.5090809@sun.com> <45BA8B0E.6030400@Sun.Com> <45BA960D.4040405@Sun.Com> <45BA9FC0.6050302@sun.com> <45BAB5A8.6030900@Sun.COM> <45BFC318.40105@BigBandNet.COM> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060925) Status: RO Content-Length: 404 Kyle McDonald wrote: > They will be unable to choose the combination of 'Solaris binaries > that have Gnu conflicts' first , and then 'locally installed GNU > binaries' second. > > That combination is impossible. Uh, unless I'm missing something, the following, very elaborate and convoluted path would provide the requested semantic. PATH=/usr/bin I must be missing something. - jek3 From John.Plocher@Sun.COM Tue Jan 30 20:34:24 2007 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0V4YODv006861 for ; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 20:34:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0V4YORc027119; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 20:34:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCP00B01U18EA00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 21:34:20 -0700 (MST) Received: from nwk-ea-fw-1.sun.com ([10.4.134.6]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCP00EFFU183AF0@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 21:34:20 -0700 (MST) Received: from d1-sfbay-09.sun.com ([192.18.39.119]) by nwk-ea-fw-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l0V4YKHl019883; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 20:34:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-sfbay-09.sun.com by d1-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JCP00N01U080Y00@d1-sfbay-09.sun.com> (original mail from John.Plocher@Sun.COM); Tue, 30 Jan 2007 20:34:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.168.4] ([66.166.204.98]) by d1-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JCP00802U171YE6@d1-sfbay-09.sun.com>; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 20:34:19 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 20:34:13 -0800 From: John Plocher Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <45BFEEE0.60808@sun.com> Sender: John.Plocher@Sun.COM To: Joseph Kowalski Cc: PSARC-EXT@Sun.COM Message-id: <45C01C45.60203@Sun.Com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45B7DE7F.705@sun.com> <45B8DD89.8020309@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125170857.GZ12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8E642.3090006@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125173913.GC12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8F1B3.7080302@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125182042.GG12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8F77D.2060707@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125184202.GJ12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8FDA2.8040000@BigBandNet.COM> <45B90BF4.5020806@Sun.Com> <45B90E41.7030204@BigBandNet.COM> <45B91F15.2070804@Sun.Com> <45B92138.6040307@sun.com> <45B929EE.6090101@Sun.Com> <45B92FF5.9010105@sun.com> <45BA12AA.9020708@BigBandNet.COM> <45BA7E0E.5090809@sun.com> <45BA8B0E.6030400@Sun.Com> <45BA960D.4040405@Sun.Com> <45BA9FC0.6050302@sun.com> <45BAB5A8.6030900@Sun.COM> <45BFC318.40105@BigBandNet.COM> <45BFEEE0.60808@sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Macintosh/20061207) Status: RO Content-Length: 1151 Joseph Kowalski wrote: >> That combination is impossible. > Uh, unless I'm missing something, the following, very elaborate and > convoluted path > would provide the requested semantic. > > PATH=/usr/bin > > I must be missing something. #include Postulate the following directory layout based on what this project proposes: A) /usr/bin/ls a Posix/SUS Solaris utility B) /usr/bin/gtar a GNU utility provided by this project Also presume that there is a directory that contains a different version of the FSF's binutils: C) /opt/csw/bin/gtar a different version of the FSF's GNU utility Note that there are also "conflicting" executable names on the system: D) /usr/gnu/bin/ls, E) /usr/gnu/bin/gtar (same as B) F) /opt/csw/bin/ls How can I set my PATH such that ls resolves to A and gtar resolves to C? PATH=? gives me A and C My choices seem to be: PATH=/usr/bin:... gives me A and B - I lose the csw gtar PATH=/usr/gnu/bin:/usr/bin:... gives me D and E (aka B) - I lose the Solaris ls AND the csw gtar PATH=/opt/csw/bin:/usr/bin:... gives me F and C - I lose the Solaris ls -John From nw141292@binky.Central.Sun.COM Tue Jan 30 21:09:10 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0V599Lr007444 for ; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 21:09:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0V58q8B007921; Wed, 31 Jan 2007 13:09:00 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCP00803VMYB000@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 21:08:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM ([129.153.128.104]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCP003YLVMYJT10@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 21:08:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0V58SVN012241; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 23:08:28 -0600 (CST) Received: (from nw141292@localhost) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/Submit) id l0V58SXp012240; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 23:08:28 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 23:08:28 -0600 From: Nicolas Williams Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <45C01C45.60203@Sun.Com> To: John Plocher Cc: Joseph Kowalski , PSARC-EXT@sun.com Message-id: <20070131050828.GG28618@binky.Central.Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <45B92FF5.9010105@sun.com> <45BA12AA.9020708@BigBandNet.COM> <45BA7E0E.5090809@sun.com> <45BA8B0E.6030400@Sun.Com> <45BA960D.4040405@Sun.Com> <45BA9FC0.6050302@sun.com> <45BAB5A8.6030900@Sun.COM> <45BFC318.40105@BigBandNet.COM> <45BFEEE0.60808@sun.com> <45C01C45.60203@Sun.Com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.7i Status: RO Content-Length: 124 On Tue, Jan 30, 2007 at 08:34:13PM -0800, John Plocher wrote: > How can I set my PATH such that Don't want that? Nico -- From bart.smaalders@Sun.COM Tue Jan 30 21:10:56 2007 Received: from sunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM (sunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.17]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0V5Au3T007464 for ; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 21:10:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.11.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0V5Atk24809; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 22:10:55 -0700 (MST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCP00G0LVQ6NT00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 22:10:54 -0700 (MST) Received: from engmail3mpk.sfbay.Sun.COM ([129.146.11.26]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCP00G3YVQ4D700@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 22:10:52 -0700 (MST) Received: from zion.eng.sun.com (zion.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.17.75]) by engmail3mpk.sfbay.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0V5Aquk014612; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 21:10:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from [129.146.228.109] (cyber [129.146.228.109]) by zion.eng.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7) with ESMTP id l0V5ApuF020498; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 21:10:52 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 21:10:30 -0800 From: Bart Smaalders Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <45C01C45.60203@Sun.Com> To: John Plocher Cc: Joseph Kowalski , PSARC-EXT@Sun.COM Message-id: <45C024C6.8030008@Sun.COM> Organization: Sun Microsystems MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <45b7844b.JDkYxAywb8dv2PAY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1169656112.2419.11.camel@tortuga> <45B7DE7F.705@sun.com> <45B8DD89.8020309@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125170857.GZ12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8E642.3090006@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125173913.GC12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8F1B3.7080302@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125182042.GG12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8F77D.2060707@BigBandNet.COM> <20070125184202.GJ12135@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45B8FDA2.8040000@BigBandNet.COM> <45B90BF4.5020806@Sun.Com> <45B90E41.7030204@BigBandNet.COM> <45B91F15.2070804@Sun.Com> <45B92138.6040307@sun.com> <45B929EE.6090101@Sun.Com> <45B92FF5.9010105@sun.com> <45BA12AA.9020708@BigBandNet.COM> <45BA7E0E.5090809@sun.com> <45BA8B0E.6030400@Sun.Com> <45BA960D.4040405@Sun.Com> <45BA9FC0.6050302@sun.com> <45BAB5A8.6030900@Sun.COM> <45BFC318.40105@BigBandNet.COM> <45BFEEE0.60808@sun.com> <45C01C45.60203@Sun.Com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.8 (X11/20061204) Status: RO Content-Length: 2217 John Plocher wrote: > Joseph Kowalski wrote: >>> That combination is impossible. >> Uh, unless I'm missing something, the following, very elaborate and >> convoluted path >> would provide the requested semantic. >> >> PATH=/usr/bin >> >> I must be missing something. > > #include > > Postulate the following directory layout based on what this > project proposes: > > A) /usr/bin/ls a Posix/SUS Solaris utility > B) /usr/bin/gtar a GNU utility provided by this project > > Also presume that there is a directory that contains a different > version of the FSF's binutils: > > C) /opt/csw/bin/gtar a different version of the FSF's GNU utility > > Note that there are also "conflicting" executable names on the system: > > D) /usr/gnu/bin/ls, > E) /usr/gnu/bin/gtar (same as B) > F) /opt/csw/bin/ls > > How can I set my PATH such that > ls resolves to A > and > gtar resolves to C? > > PATH=? > gives me A and C > > > My choices seem to be: > > PATH=/usr/bin:... > gives me A and B - I lose the csw gtar > > PATH=/usr/gnu/bin:/usr/bin:... > gives me D and E (aka B) - I lose the Solaris ls AND the csw gtar > > PATH=/opt/csw/bin:/usr/bin:... > gives me F and C - I lose the Solaris ls > > > -John Note that you can make exactly the same argument if you want the Solaris version of m4 but the gnu version of ls, regardless of where we place non-conflicting names. If you want to pick individual binaries out of directories, use symbolic links: % mkdir ~/bin % ln -s /opt/csw/bin/gtar ~/bin % PATH=~/bin:/usr/bin:... It's very simple. PATH=/usr/bin should work for most people. Selecting alternate environments can be accomplished by placing those environments ahead of /usr/bin. Those wishing "Dim Sum" binary selection are encouraged to use symbolic links in their own personal bin directory. Richards' proposal to create a /usr/sunos containing only "solaris" commands might be interesting but that is not this project. I can foresee interesting arguments as to what it might contain, and what might be excluded. - Bart -- Bart Smaalders Solaris Kernel Performance barts@cyber.eng.sun.com http://blogs.sun.com/barts From nw141292@binky.Central.Sun.COM Wed Jan 31 09:16:16 2007 Received: from sunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM (sunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.17]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0VHGFcq019796 for ; Wed, 31 Jan 2007 09:16:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.11.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0VHGAk13968; Wed, 31 Jan 2007 10:16:10 -0700 (MST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCQ00G03TAX6V00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 31 Jan 2007 09:16:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM ([129.153.128.104]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCQ00C6ETAWCXA0@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 31 Jan 2007 09:16:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0VHFcP2016284; Wed, 31 Jan 2007 11:15:38 -0600 (CST) Received: (from nw141292@localhost) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/Submit) id l0VHFXEe016283; Wed, 31 Jan 2007 11:15:33 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 11:15:33 -0600 From: Nicolas Williams Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <45BFEDA0.7090104@sun.com> To: Joseph Kowalski Cc: Kyle McDonald , barts@eng.sun.com, gww@eng.sun.com, Joerg Schilling , John Plocher , PSARC-EXT@sun.com, Marcel Telka , Darren.Reed@sun.com Message-id: <20070131171533.GJ28618@binky.Central.Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <45B92138.6040307@sun.com> <45B929EE.6090101@Sun.Com> <45B92FF5.9010105@sun.com> <45BA12AA.9020708@BigBandNet.COM> <45BA7E0E.5090809@sun.com> <45BA8B0E.6030400@Sun.Com> <45BA960D.4040405@Sun.Com> <45BA9FC0.6050302@sun.com> <45BFC0C9.1080503@BigBandNet.COM> <45BFEDA0.7090104@sun.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.7i Status: RO Content-Length: 840 On Tue, Jan 30, 2007 at 03:15:12PM -1000, Joseph Kowalski wrote: > Anyway, suffice it to say, we can't even consider mucking with the > user's setting of PATH. > Its a non-starter. Could you clarify something? Just what exactly is a non-starter? Mucking with the user's PATH without asking them? (I hope so!) Or is any PATH management tool out of the question as well? I.e., can we build a GUI tool that can manage users' PATH settings? And if we can, can it be invoked on first login, on first login after update, after patch? Because I could see a voluntary PATH management tool as useful. Of course, because shell dot files are scripts whose flow control we could not analyze in such a tool, such a tool would be limited to users whose shell dot files adhere to some conventions (which the account skeleton's would). Nico -- From kyle.mcdonald@bigbandnet.com Wed Jan 31 09:37:12 2007 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0VHbCUm020595 for ; Wed, 31 Jan 2007 09:37:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0VHb4Aq020100; Wed, 31 Jan 2007 09:37:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCQ00H1NU9VR600@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 31 Jan 2007 10:37:07 -0700 (MST) Received: from nwkea-mail-4.sun.com ([192.18.42.26]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCQ00KCMU9U6AC0@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 31 Jan 2007 10:37:06 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay41i.sun.com ([192.5.209.70]) by nwkea-mail-4.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l0VHRKCB000659; Wed, 31 Jan 2007 09:37:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from mms49es.sun.com ([160.41.221.233] [160.41.221.233]) by relay41i.sun.com with ESMTP; Wed, 31 Jan 2007 17:37:05 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay43i.sun.com ([192.5.209.74] [192.5.209.74]) by mms49es.sun.com with ESMTP; Wed, 31 Jan 2007 17:37:05 +0000 (Z) Received: from exprod8og55.obsmtp.com ([64.18.3.92] [64.18.3.92]) by relay4i.sun.com; Wed, 31 Jan 2007 17:37:05 +0000 (Z) Received: from source ([65.126.230.68]) by exprod8ob55.obsmtp.com ([64.18.7.12]) with SMTP; Wed, 31 Jan 2007 09:33:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([10.30.8.236]) by wsb-srvr-02.bigbandnet.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 31 Jan 2007 12:33:43 -0500 Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 12:33:40 -0500 From: Kyle McDonald Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <20070131171533.GJ28618@binky.Central.Sun.COM> To: Nicolas Williams Cc: Joseph Kowalski , barts@eng.sun.com, gww@eng.sun.com, Joerg Schilling , John Plocher , PSARC-EXT@sun.com, Marcel Telka , Darren.Reed@sun.com Message-id: <45C0D2F4.7050602@BigBandNet.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <45B92138.6040307@sun.com> <45B929EE.6090101@Sun.Com> <45B92FF5.9010105@sun.com> <45BA12AA.9020708@BigBandNet.COM> <45BA7E0E.5090809@sun.com> <45BA8B0E.6030400@Sun.Com> <45BA960D.4040405@Sun.Com> <45BA9FC0.6050302@sun.com> <45BFC0C9.1080503@BigBandNet.COM> <45BFEDA0.7090104@sun.com> <20070131171533.GJ28618@binky.Central.Sun.COM> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 31 Jan 2007 17:33:43.0695 (UTC) FILETIME=[F456C1F0:01C7455D] Status: RO Content-Length: 2654 Nicolas Williams wrote: > On Tue, Jan 30, 2007 at 03:15:12PM -1000, Joseph Kowalski wrote: > >> Anyway, suffice it to say, we can't even consider mucking with the >> user's setting of PATH. >> Its a non-starter. >> > > Could you clarify something? Just what exactly is a non-starter? > > Mucking with the user's PATH without asking them? (I hope so!) > > Or is any PATH management tool out of the question as well? > > I.e., can we build a GUI tool that can manage users' PATH settings? > > And if we can, can it be invoked on first login, on first login after > update, after patch? > > Because I could see a voluntary PATH management tool as useful. > > Of course, because shell dot files are scripts whose flow control we > could not analyze in such a tool, such a tool would be limited to users > whose shell dot files adhere to some conventions (which the account > skeleton's would). > There is another way to do this. Actually it could play right into my reply Richard Hamilton's earlier post about moving the 'solaris' environment to /usr/sun. Consider this: The binaries that that post describes are moved to /usr/sun. The Gnu binaries are in /usr/gnu The other environments are in their locations. Other large groups of related binaries could be split out and organized also. Today the 'default' environment is made up of symlinks pulling in the pieces we think the user should see by default today - This would mostly mimic what solaris supplies in /usr/bin today. In the future, /usr/bin (or somewhere else - but then you'd have to change everyone's PATH ;) ) instead becomes many softlinks to a 'wrapper' program that is designed to look up the users' preferences on a per-program (or per-program family) basis - with defaults set as the links were set in the past. A GUI or even CLI is developed to allow the user to pick and choose, the 'flavors', or even 'versions' of the programs (or program families) that they want to use. With everything installed in seperate directories, a tool like this has the flexibility to work. No mucking with the $PATH is needed. No parsing or editing .dotfiles, or concerns about which shell is used. If done correctly perfomance shouldn't be a problem. This is something I've written in the past to manage EDA and CAD tool version selection for groups of developers working on different versions of projects. It's also something I've always would have loved to have seen rolled into the OS itself. If it could be done where it could be configured to allow users to also select and managed 3rd party locally installed software also that would be great. -Kyle From lists@mcintyreweb.com Wed Jan 31 09:39:17 2007 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0VHdHfw020743 for ; Wed, 31 Jan 2007 09:39:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0VHdCd0020574; Wed, 31 Jan 2007 09:39:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCQ00H03UDCN200@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 31 Jan 2007 09:39:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com ([192.18.98.34]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCQ00C2OUDBCXE0@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 31 Jan 2007 09:39:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay41i.sun.com ([192.5.209.70]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l0VHAMNc028142; Wed, 31 Jan 2007 10:39:11 -0700 (MST) Received: from mms49es.sun.com ([160.41.221.233] [160.41.221.233]) by relay41i.sun.com with ESMTP; Wed, 31 Jan 2007 17:39:10 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay44i.sun.com ([192.5.209.118] [192.5.209.118]) by mms49es.sun.com with ESMTP; Wed, 31 Jan 2007 17:39:10 +0000 (Z) Received: from partslist.i.mcintyreweb.com ([64.166.3.74] [64.166.3.74]) by relay4i.sun.com with ESMTP; Wed, 31 Jan 2007 17:39:09 +0000 (Z) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by partslist.i.mcintyreweb.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7) with ESMTP id l0VHbTFp007298; Wed, 31 Jan 2007 09:37:34 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 09:37:29 -0800 From: Hugh McIntyre Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <20070131171533.GJ28618@binky.Central.Sun.COM> To: Nicolas Williams Cc: Joseph Kowalski , barts@eng.sun.com, gww@eng.sun.com, Joerg Schilling , John Plocher , psarc-ext@sun.com, Marcel Telka , Darren.Reed@sun.com Message-id: <45C0D3D9.7060909@mcintyreweb.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <45B92138.6040307@sun.com> <45B929EE.6090101@Sun.Com> <45B92FF5.9010105@sun.com> <45BA12AA.9020708@BigBandNet.COM> <45BA7E0E.5090809@sun.com> <45BA8B0E.6030400@Sun.Com> <45BA960D.4040405@Sun.Com> <45BA9FC0.6050302@sun.com> <45BFC0C9.1080503@BigBandNet.COM> <45BFEDA0.7090104@sun.com> <20070131171533.GJ28618@binky.Central.Sun.COM> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (X11/20060602) Status: RO Content-Length: 1399 Nicolas Williams wrote: > Could you clarify something? Just what exactly is a non-starter? > Mucking with the user's PATH without asking them? (I hope so!) > Or is any PATH management tool out of the question as well? > > I.e., can we build a GUI tool that can manage users' PATH settings? And how is such a GUI tool going to deal with users with .cshrc files that say "source /local/projects/stdenv.cshrc"? Or some other file not owned by the user? Where the latter sets the path in some hard-coded way. Whichever way you look at this, you're back to the problem of "if a user sets an explicit path somewhere in the bowels of .cshrc, writing a general purpose GUI to fix this is problematic." > And if we can, can it be invoked on first login, on first login after > update, after patch? Not everyone has a plain .cshrc all of their own, without standard setups. In fact, most people on a large project probably source a standard file from somewhere else. (Don't ON developers do this?). > Because I could see a voluntary PATH management tool as useful. Perhaps. > Of course, because shell dot files are scripts whose flow control we > could not analyze in such a tool, such a tool would be limited to users > whose shell dot files adhere to some conventions (which the account > skeleton's would). Exactly the point above. Which prevents this being a robust solution. Hugh. From nw141292@binky.Central.Sun.COM Wed Jan 31 09:50:12 2007 Received: from sunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM (sunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.17]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0VHoB4M020923 for ; Wed, 31 Jan 2007 09:50:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.11.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0VHo5k25883; Wed, 31 Jan 2007 10:50:05 -0700 (MST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCQ0040RUVEWR00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 31 Jan 2007 09:50:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM ([129.153.128.104]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCQ00ITLUVDMV50@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 31 Jan 2007 09:50:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0VHnVhG016536; Wed, 31 Jan 2007 11:49:31 -0600 (CST) Received: (from nw141292@localhost) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/Submit) id l0VHnURi016535; Wed, 31 Jan 2007 11:49:31 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 11:49:30 -0600 From: Nicolas Williams Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <45C0D3D9.7060909@mcintyreweb.com> To: Hugh McIntyre Cc: Joseph Kowalski , barts@eng.sun.com, gww@eng.sun.com, Joerg Schilling , John Plocher , psarc-ext@sun.com, Marcel Telka , Darren.Reed@sun.com Message-id: <20070131174930.GL28618@binky.Central.Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <45B92FF5.9010105@sun.com> <45BA12AA.9020708@BigBandNet.COM> <45BA7E0E.5090809@sun.com> <45BA8B0E.6030400@Sun.Com> <45BA960D.4040405@Sun.Com> <45BA9FC0.6050302@sun.com> <45BFC0C9.1080503@BigBandNet.COM> <45BFEDA0.7090104@sun.com> <20070131171533.GJ28618@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45C0D3D9.7060909@mcintyreweb.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.7i Status: RO Content-Length: 840 On Wed, Jan 31, 2007 at 09:37:29AM -0800, Hugh McIntyre wrote: > >Of course, because shell dot files are scripts whose flow control we > >could not analyze in such a tool, such a tool would be limited to users > >whose shell dot files adhere to some conventions (which the account > >skeleton's would). > > Exactly the point above. Which prevents this being a robust solution. The convention might be that there's a new dot file where the managed *PATH variables' settings are stored and that dot files are supposed to "source" it (or a transformation of it). This would only work for users that adhere to this convention. New users would, and since we're aiming and being friendlier to new users this might be worthwhile. But more than anything I want to know just what is a non-starter w.r.t. PATH management. Any ideas? Nico -- From kyle.mcdonald@bigbandnet.com Wed Jan 31 10:00:34 2007 Received: from sunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM (sunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.17]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0VI0Yl6021850 for ; Wed, 31 Jan 2007 10:00:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.11.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0VI0Sk07128; Wed, 31 Jan 2007 11:00:28 -0700 (MST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCQ0060JVCQNM00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 31 Jan 2007 10:00:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.98.43]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCQ00IGMVCPMO60@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 31 Jan 2007 10:00:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay13.sun.com (relay13.sun.com [217.140.40.54] (may be forged)) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l0VI0OKx013443; Wed, 31 Jan 2007 11:00:24 -0700 (MST) Received: from mms11es.sun.com ([160.41.223.14] [160.41.223.14]) by relay13.sun.com with ESMTP; Wed, 31 Jan 2007 18:00:23 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay11.sun.com (relay11.sun.com [217.140.40.14]) by mms11es.sun.com with ESMTP; Wed, 31 Jan 2007 18:00:21 +0000 (Z) Received: from exprod8og55.obsmtp.com ([64.18.3.92] [64.18.3.92]) by relay11.sun.com; Wed, 31 Jan 2007 18:00:17 +0000 (Z) Received: from source ([65.126.230.68]) by exprod8ob55.obsmtp.com ([64.18.7.12]) with SMTP; Wed, 31 Jan 2007 09:58:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([10.30.8.236]) by wsb-srvr-02.bigbandnet.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 31 Jan 2007 12:58:20 -0500 Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 12:58:18 -0500 From: Kyle McDonald Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <20070131174930.GL28618@binky.Central.Sun.COM> To: Nicolas Williams Cc: Hugh McIntyre , barts@eng.sun.com, gww@eng.sun.com, Joerg Schilling , John Plocher , Joseph Kowalski , psarc-ext@sun.com, Marcel Telka , Darren.Reed@sun.com Message-id: <45C0D8BA.306@BigBandNet.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <45B92FF5.9010105@sun.com> <45BA12AA.9020708@BigBandNet.COM> <45BA7E0E.5090809@sun.com> <45BA8B0E.6030400@Sun.Com> <45BA960D.4040405@Sun.Com> <45BA9FC0.6050302@sun.com> <45BFC0C9.1080503@BigBandNet.COM> <45BFEDA0.7090104@sun.com> <20070131171533.GJ28618@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45C0D3D9.7060909@mcintyreweb.com> <20070131174930.GL28618@binky.Central.Sun.COM> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 31 Jan 2007 17:58:20.0220 (UTC) FILETIME=[646A97C0:01C74561] Status: RO Content-Length: 1163 Nicolas Williams wrote: > On Wed, Jan 31, 2007 at 09:37:29AM -0800, Hugh McIntyre wrote: > >>> Of course, because shell dot files are scripts whose flow control we >>> could not analyze in such a tool, such a tool would be limited to users >>> whose shell dot files adhere to some conventions (which the account >>> skeleton's would). >>> >> Exactly the point above. Which prevents this being a robust solution. >> > > The convention might be that there's a new dot file where the managed > *PATH variables' settings are stored and that dot files are supposed to > "source" it (or a transformation of it). > > This would only work for users that adhere to this convention. New > users would, and since we're aiming and being friendlier to new users > this might be worthwhile. > > But more than anything I want to know just what is a non-starter w.r.t. > PATH management. Any ideas? > I read it that /bin/login should never provide any other PATH than what is already provided. I've assumed that it also meant that no changes to the PATH should be done in the default /etc/.login or /etc/profile also but I'm not clear on that. -Kyle From sac-owner Wed Jan 31 11:50:48 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0VJolX4026864 for ; Wed, 31 Jan 2007 11:50:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0VJofHS003359 for <@sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com:sac-review@sun.com>; Wed, 31 Jan 2007 19:50:46 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCR003010GLJS00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for sac-review@sun.com (ORCPT sac-review@Sun.COM); Wed, 31 Jan 2007 11:50:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-ea-fw-1.sun.com ([10.4.134.6]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCR00I880GJ3V80@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for sac-review@sun.com (ORCPT sac-review@Sun.COM); Wed, 31 Jan 2007 11:50:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from d1-sfbay-09.sun.com ([192.18.39.119]) by nwk-ea-fw-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l0VJoh3b009141 for ; Wed, 31 Jan 2007 11:50:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-sfbay-09.sun.com by d1-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JCR00M010DRFN00@d1-sfbay-09.sun.com> (original mail from Sherri.Shieh@Sun.COM) for sac-review@Sun.COM (ORCPT sac-review@Sun.COM); Wed, 31 Jan 2007 11:50:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from [129.145.154.108] by d1-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JCR00FYD0G9P4O5@d1-sfbay-09.sun.com> for sac-review@Sun.COM (ORCPT sac-review@Sun.COM); Wed, 31 Jan 2007 11:50:34 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 11:50:33 -0800 From: Sherri Shieh Subject: PSARC Case Approved 01/31/2007 - 2007/047 Sender: Sherri.Shieh@sun.com To: Sherri Shieh Reply-to: Sherri.Shieh@sun.com Message-id: <45C0F309.6090908@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en-us, en X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; SunOS sun4v; en-US; rv:1.7) Gecko/20060120 Status: RO Content-Length: 386 PSARC approved 01/31/2007 Case: /usr/gnu (2007/047) Incompatible Changes: none Precedent: precedent for the GNU family of utilities (excluding those that are deemed to be administrative) to go into /usr/gnu, where conflicts exist in the normal (/usr/bin) location Note: none If more information is needed, please contact the case owner/intern. From carlsonj@phorcys.east.sun.com Wed Jan 31 11:55:36 2007 Received: from sunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM (sunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.17]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0VJtahc027363 for ; Wed, 31 Jan 2007 11:55:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.11.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0VJtTi28142; Wed, 31 Jan 2007 12:55:29 -0700 (MST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCR000150OGUA00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 31 Jan 2007 11:55:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com ([129.148.174.143]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCR00L7P0OEZZ60@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 31 Jan 2007 11:55:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l0VJtPU7009774; Wed, 31 Jan 2007 14:55:25 -0500 (EST) Received: (from carlsonj@localhost) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/Submit) id l0VJtPLY009771; Wed, 31 Jan 2007 14:55:25 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 14:55:24 -0500 From: James Carlson Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <45C0D8BA.306@BigBandNet.COM> To: Kyle McDonald Cc: Nicolas Williams , barts@eng.sun.com, gww@eng.sun.com, Joerg Schilling , John Plocher , Joseph Kowalski , psarc-ext@sun.com, Marcel Telka , Darren.Reed@sun.com Message-id: <17856.62508.539570.845551@gargle.gargle.HOWL> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: VM 7.01 under Emacs 21.3.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <45B92FF5.9010105@sun.com> <45BA12AA.9020708@BigBandNet.COM> <45BA7E0E.5090809@sun.com> <45BA8B0E.6030400@Sun.Com> <45BA960D.4040405@Sun.Com> <45BA9FC0.6050302@sun.com> <45BFC0C9.1080503@BigBandNet.COM> <45BFEDA0.7090104@sun.com> <20070131171533.GJ28618@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45C0D3D9.7060909@mcintyreweb.com> <20070131174930.GL28618@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45C0D8BA.306@BigBandNet.COM> Status: RO Content-Length: 996 Kyle McDonald writes: > I read it that /bin/login should never provide any other PATH than what > is already provided. > > I've assumed that it also meant that no changes to the PATH should be > done in the default /etc/.login or /etc/profile also but I'm not clear > on that. Two important points to make: 1. This project was not and still is not the "serendipitous discovery" case that set the "use /usr/bin for everything" precedent. That was PSARC 2005/185, and if you (still) have problems with it, then please take the argument there. 2. This project, which relates to putting non-administrative FSF conflicts into /usr/gnu, was approved during today's review. I'll have a written ARC opinion as soon as I can manage one. -- James Carlson, Solaris Networking Sun Microsystems / 1 Network Drive 71.232W Vox +1 781 442 2084 MS UBUR02-212 / Burlington MA 01803-2757 42.496N Fax +1 781 442 1677 From kyle.mcdonald@bigbandnet.com Wed Jan 31 12:08:17 2007 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0VK8HfV028014 for ; Wed, 31 Jan 2007 12:08:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0VK8CwH015845; Wed, 31 Jan 2007 12:08:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCR0020119N9A00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 31 Jan 2007 12:08:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from sca-ea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.43.25]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCR00LXK19NZZC0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 31 Jan 2007 12:08:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay3.sun.com (relay3.sun.com [150.143.103.54] (may be forged)) by sca-ea-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l0VI80Ik001049; Wed, 31 Jan 2007 12:08:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from mms0des.sun.com ([150.143.104.234] [150.143.104.234]) by relay3.sun.com with ESMTP; Wed, 31 Jan 2007 20:08:11 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay4.sun.com (relay4.sun.com [150.143.103.74]) by mms0des.sun.com with ESMTP; Wed, 31 Jan 2007 20:08:10 +0000 (Z) Received: from exprod8og58.obsmtp.com ([64.18.3.98] [64.18.3.98]) by relay4.sun.com; Wed, 31 Jan 2007 20:08:10 +0000 (Z) Received: from source ([65.126.230.68]) by exprod8ob58.obsmtp.com ([64.18.7.12]) with SMTP; Wed, 31 Jan 2007 12:04:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([10.30.8.236]) by wsb-srvr-02.bigbandnet.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 31 Jan 2007 15:04:11 -0500 Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 15:04:12 -0500 From: Kyle McDonald Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <17856.62508.539570.845551@gargle.gargle.HOWL> To: James Carlson Cc: Nicolas Williams , barts@eng.sun.com, gww@eng.sun.com, Joerg Schilling , John Plocher , Joseph Kowalski , psarc-ext@sun.com, Marcel Telka , Darren.Reed@sun.com Message-id: <45C0F63C.6090808@BigBandNet.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <45B92FF5.9010105@sun.com> <45BA12AA.9020708@BigBandNet.COM> <45BA7E0E.5090809@sun.com> <45BA8B0E.6030400@Sun.Com> <45BA960D.4040405@Sun.Com> <45BA9FC0.6050302@sun.com> <45BFC0C9.1080503@BigBandNet.COM> <45BFEDA0.7090104@sun.com> <20070131171533.GJ28618@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45C0D3D9.7060909@mcintyreweb.com> <20070131174930.GL28618@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45C0D8BA.306@BigBandNet.COM> <17856.62508.539570.845551@gargle.gargle.HOWL> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 31 Jan 2007 20:04:11.0191 (UTC) FILETIME=[F9255470:01C74572] Status: RO Content-Length: 1103 James Carlson wrote: > Kyle McDonald writes: > >> I read it that /bin/login should never provide any other PATH than what >> is already provided. >> >> I've assumed that it also meant that no changes to the PATH should be >> done in the default /etc/.login or /etc/profile also but I'm not clear >> on that. >> > > Two important points to make: > > 1. This project was not and still is not the "serendipitous > discovery" case that set the "use /usr/bin for everything" > precedent. That was PSARC 2005/185, and if you (still) have > problems with it, then please take the argument there. > > 2. This project, which relates to putting non-administrative FSF > conflicts into /usr/gnu, was approved during today's review. > I'll have a written ARC opinion as soon as I can manage one. > > Sorry if I stepped on anyone's toes. I wrote that before the call today. I have refrained from writing anything since the case was approved. With respect to #1 though, I'd be interested in reading it as soon as it can be made available to the public. -Kyle From John.Plocher@sun.com Wed Jan 31 14:53:50 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l0VMrnAE001585 for ; Wed, 31 Jan 2007 14:53:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0VMriuR027110 for <@sunmail1brm.central.sun.com:PSARC-Ext@sun.com>; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 06:53:47 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCR006058XJF200@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for PSARC-Ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-Ext@sun.com); Wed, 31 Jan 2007 15:53:43 -0700 (MST) Received: from nwk-ea-fw-1.sun.com ([10.4.134.5]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCR004BC8XI9V10@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for PSARC-Ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-Ext@sun.com); Wed, 31 Jan 2007 15:53:42 -0700 (MST) Received: from d1-sfbay-09.sun.com ([192.18.39.119]) by nwk-ea-fw-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l0VMrgaj009143 for ; Wed, 31 Jan 2007 14:53:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-sfbay-09.sun.com by d1-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JCR00C018R1J100@d1-sfbay-09.sun.com> (original mail from John.Plocher@Sun.COM) for PSARC-Ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-Ext@sun.com); Wed, 31 Jan 2007 14:53:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from [129.146.58.87] by d1-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JCR00FZD8XHP3EU@d1-sfbay-09.sun.com> for PSARC-Ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-Ext@sun.com); Wed, 31 Jan 2007 14:53:41 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 14:53:34 -0800 From: John Plocher Subject: External feedback on the ARC review of PSARC 2007/047 (/usr/gnu) Sender: John.Plocher@sun.com To: PSARC-Ext@sun.com Message-id: <45C11DEE.20608@Sun.Com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Boundary_(ID_7QSMB1tWB+He/PJNiIhNeg)" X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Macintosh/20061207) Status: RO Content-Length: 29217 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_7QSMB1tWB+He/PJNiIhNeg) Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT The following is a follow up to today's approved /usr/gnu ARC case from one of the community menbers who participated. -John --Boundary_(ID_7QSMB1tWB+He/PJNiIhNeg) Content-type: message/rfc822; name="Re: PSARC-EXT Agenda 01/24/2007" Return-path: Received: from d1-sfbay-09.sun.com ([192.18.39.119]) by nedge2-mail1.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTP id <0JCR003BX2N2PS60@nedge2-mail1.sfbay.sun.com> for plocher@nedge2-mail1.sfbay.Sun.COM; Wed, 31 Jan 2007 12:37:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-sfbay-09.sun.com by d1-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JCR00C012K5OT00@d1-sfbay-09.sun.com> for plocher@nedge2-mail1.sfbay.Sun.COM (ORCPT John.Plocher@sun.com); Wed, 31 Jan 2007 12:37:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from phys-nedge2-1.sfbay.sun.com ([10.4.135.16]) by d1-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTP id <0JCR00F582MZP4X5@d1-sfbay-09.sun.com> for plocher@nedge2-mail1.sfbay.Sun.COM (ORCPT John.Plocher@sun.com); Wed, 31 Jan 2007 12:37:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from sfbaymail1sca.SFBay.Sun.COM ([129.145.154.35]) by nedge2-mail1.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTP id <0JCR003OE2MZPK50@nedge2-mail1.sfbay.sun.com> for plocher@nedge2-mail1.sfbay.Sun.COM (ORCPT John.Plocher@sun.com); Wed, 31 Jan 2007 12:37:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from sunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM (sunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.17]) by sfbaymail1sca.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0VKbl9W001584 for ; Wed, 31 Jan 2007 12:37:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.11.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0VKbki00222 for <@sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com:John.Plocher@sun.com>; Wed, 31 Jan 2007 13:37:46 -0700 (MST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCR006012MYY100@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for John.Plocher@sun.com (ORCPT John.Plocher@sun.com); Wed, 31 Jan 2007 12:37:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwkea-mail-5.sun.com ([192.18.42.27]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCR00INO2MX4JA0@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for John.Plocher@sun.com (ORCPT John.Plocher@sun.com); Wed, 31 Jan 2007 12:37:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay1.sun.com (relay1.sun.com [150.143.103.14] (may be forged)) by nwkea-mail-5.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l0VI5jQT020698 for ; Wed, 31 Jan 2007 12:37:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from mms0ees.sun.com ([150.143.104.244] [150.143.104.244]) by relay1.sun.com with ESMTP for John.Plocher@sun.com; Wed, 31 Jan 2007 20:37:45 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay4.sun.com (relay4.sun.com [150.143.103.74]) by mms0ees.sun.com with ESMTP for John.Plocher@sun.com; Wed, 31 Jan 2007 20:37:44 +0000 (Z) Received: from exprod8og51.obsmtp.com ([64.18.3.84] [64.18.3.84]) by relay4.sun.com for John.Plocher@sun.com; Wed, 31 Jan 2007 20:37:44 +0000 (Z) Received: from source ([65.126.230.68]) by exprod8ob51.obsmtp.com ([64.18.7.12]) with SMTP; Wed, 31 Jan 2007 12:37:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([10.30.8.236]) by wsb-srvr-02.bigbandnet.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 31 Jan 2007 15:37:42 -0500 Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 15:37:44 -0500 From: Kyle McDonald Subject: Re: PSARC-EXT Agenda 01/24/2007 In-reply-to: <45B63D75.5060708@Sun.Com> To: John Plocher Message-id: <45C0FE18.8000408@BigBandNet.COM> X-Envelope-from: John.Plocher@Sun.COM X-Envelope-to: PSARC-Ext <@smarthost.sun.com:PSARC-Ext@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <45B0F008.7030607@sun.com> <45B5F645.6040406@Sun.COM> <45B63352.7050009@sun.com> <45B63D75.5060708@Sun.Com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) Original-recipient: rfc822;John.Plocher@sun.com X-OriginalArrivalTime: 31 Jan 2007 20:37:42.0625 (UTC) FILETIME=[A80DCD10:01C74577] Hi John, I was on the call today. After listening to the whole meeting, I'm left feeling like the Use Model of administrators (especially of large heterogenous installations) is either not well understood or is not considered important enough by those making the decisions. It seems too focused on a one machine,one admin model. Maybe I missed something. I'd like to know more about how these meetings run and how the public can interact in them. I noticed a disconnect to day, in that the email threads all seemed to imply that attracting new users to OpenSolaris, and making sure they had a good first experience was the driving force behind this. However in the meeting I got the idea that Sun's reason was more to make things easier on itself and to not have to have several of it's groups doing redundant work. In the meeting today, sentiment of the group that i heard is that if I want to install GNU or other free software programs myself either newer versions, or customized with my configure options, then I have to: 1. Get the sources and patches Sun uses 2. Compile everything myself (not necc. the just thing i want to replace) 3. Install what I compile into the same location as Sun puts it. For 3, I heard the term 'deliver packages' used instead of 'make install'? Are they equivalent in this case? Or a were people talking about actually making packages and then running pkgadd? The term 'deliver' to me carries more of a meaning for someone creating a Distribution. If it does imply creating pkgs and using Pkgadd, then don't people understand that's not how things are done (anywhere I've seen anyway) Once the OS is installed? No one I know maintains a set of Solaris machines by distributing pkg's and adding them to each machine. Even if it just means 'make install' , no admin I know is comfortable running a 'make install' that will overwrite pieces of the original OS. How can I know what assumptions an ISV like Cadence, or Synopsys, may have made about something officially shipped with Solaris. As a site admin I can't take that risk and replace it no matter how sure I am that it's the same thing. It's just not done. And I don't trust anyone but Sun to pay attention to the Stability that Sun assigns things in Solaris. I've seen too many applications that assumed too much about Solaris, and on most of them I wasn't in a posisiotn to have it fixed, so I don't muck with /usr or anything Solaris installs except config files. The problem's I have with the 3 things above are: 1. I only use sources today that come from the origin. 2. I don't always build everything that Sun might include. 3. I view /usr as sacred and 'machine local'. I never change anything in it if possible. I also don't want to be forced to replicate my new builds out to 1000's of machines. #3 is likely to be a big issue for any customers who also fit into one category that I think James Carlson described. The group that wants the same versions of GNU programs on all hosts in a heterogeneous (AIX, HPUX, IRIX, Solaris) network, will also probably want all of those programs in the same location on those hosts. These are the customers who are going to throw out the SFW stuff, who are *always* going to rebuild their versions their way, probably without Sun Patches, and are *always* going to install the stuff in a local directory. These I imagine will be the customers that complain the most about this change. Including these utilities hasn't (as someone said) made life easier for those out there that build software. I beleive that many Admins out there only build software with the tools that they've also already built. It won't help to have the tools packaged into Solaris. They'll use their tools anyway. When GNOME starts to depend on these packages, I won't be able to install GNOME either. Then I'll be forced to buikl it also. This will be more work not less. I don't want to be a developer. I don't want to create my own distribution, and I don't want to replace all of what sun has made for me. I want the flexibility to overlay what I do choose to build over what Sun supplies. I think I've lost that now. At the least it's going to be much harder. That's a shame. I won't know for sure till I actually see it in action and see what I can come up with to work around it. I guess I'm done venting now. Thanks for reading it. If I have misunderstood anything please let me know. -Kyle --Boundary_(ID_7QSMB1tWB+He/PJNiIhNeg) Content-type: message/rfc822; name="Attached Message" Return-path: Received: from d1-sfbay-09.sun.com ([192.18.39.119]) by nedge2-mail1.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTP id <0JCR003VB5FRPKB0@nedge2-mail1.sfbay.sun.com> for John.Plocher@Sun.com; Wed, 31 Jan 2007 13:38:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-sfbay-09.sun.com by d1-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JCR00I015CTHA00@d1-sfbay-09.sun.com> (original mail from John.Plocher@Sun.COM) for John.Plocher@Sun.com (ORCPT John.Plocher@Sun.com); Wed, 31 Jan 2007 13:38:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from [129.146.58.87] by d1-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JCR00F185FQP476@d1-sfbay-09.sun.com> for John.Plocher@Sun.com (ORCPT John.Plocher@Sun.com); Wed, 31 Jan 2007 13:38:14 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 13:38:07 -0800 From: John Plocher Subject: Community feedback and questions on 2007/047 (/usr/gnu) In-reply-to: <45C0FE18.8000408@BigBandNet.COM> Sender: John.Plocher@Sun.COM To: Kyle McDonald Cc: John.Plocher@Sun.COM Message-id: <45C10C3F.4020807@Sun.Com> X-Envelope-from: John.Plocher@Sun.COM X-Envelope-to: PSARC-Ext <@smarthost.sun.com:PSARC-Ext@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <45B0F008.7030607@sun.com> <45B5F645.6040406@Sun.COM> <45B63352.7050009@sun.com> <45B63D75.5060708@Sun.Com> <45C0FE18.8000408@BigBandNet.COM> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Macintosh/20061207) Original-recipient: rfc822;John.Plocher@Sun.com Kyle McDonald wrote: > Hi John, > > I was on the call today. Thanks for calling in. I'll answer/clarify what I can; do you mind if I forward this on to the ARC community and project team for additional comments? > the whole meeting, I'm left feeling like the Use > Model of administrators (especially of large heterogenous installations) > is either not well understood or is not considered important enough by > those > making the decisions. It seems too focused on a one machine,one admin > model. Maybe I missed something. I'd have to agree that the discussion was biased towards Solaris and didn't show much (if any) understanding or sensitivity towards heterogeneous environments. > I'd like to know more about how these meetings run and how the public > can interact in them. I noticed a disconnect to day, in that the email > threads all seemed to imply that attracting new users to OpenSolaris, > and making sure they had a good first experience was the driving force There are many ways whereby a new user's experience could be improved. I think this project (ARC and project team) focused more on "/usr/bin is the answer" than "is this the best way to solve the problem". But that is only my opinion. > behind this. However in the meeting I got the idea that Sun's reason was > more to make things easier on itself and to not have to have several of > it's groups doing redundant work. One of the key architectural foundations at Sun is that each component of the system can appear in only one package. (See the 1991/061 ARC case: http://www.opensolaris.org/os/community/arc/caselog/1991/061/opinion/ ) This combines with a distribution model that focuses on binary compatability and stability over time to make a culture where source code replication between projects is frowned upon. > > In the meeting today, sentiment of the group that i heard is that if I > want to install GNU or other free software programs myself either newer > versions, or customized with my configure options, then I have to: > > 1. Get the sources and patches Sun uses > 2. Compile everything myself (not necc. the just thing i want to replace) > 3. Install what I compile into the same location as Sun puts it. > > For 3, I heard the term 'deliver packages' used instead of 'make > install'? Are they equivalent in this case? Or a were people talking I think they are equivalent. "make install" is difficult to audit, replicate and distribute, while "pkgadd -d thispackage.pkg" doesn't have those problems. > about actually making packages and then running pkgadd? The term > 'deliver' to me carries more of a meaning for someone creating a > Distribution. As an admin who wants a newer version of , I am faced with three choices: 1) Go to the FSF web site, download the sources, do the configure/make/install dance on every system, or 2) Go to the OS.o SFW community, download the latest packages containing , and install/upgrade every system, or 3) Do some combination of the above, melding the latest FSF sources with the OS.O SFW diffs, configure/make/package and nstall/upgrade every system. Nowhere does this imply that you would need to create or distribute a new distro to anyone else... > > If it does imply creating pkgs and using Pkgadd, then don't people > understand that's not how things are done (anywhere I've seen anyway) > Once the OS is installed? No one I know maintains a set of Solaris > machines by distributing pkg's and adding them to each machine. Even if > it just means 'make install' , no admin I know is comfortable running a > 'make install' that will overwrite pieces of the original OS. This is my concern as well as we put more and more into the core system. Choice #2 above is equivalent to "add these service packs or patches to upgrade your OS". > How can I know what assumptions an ISV like Cadence, or Synopsys, may > have made about something officially shipped with Solaris. As a site We can only hope that they pay attention to the exported interface stability of the things that they consume. "Officially Shipped With" is not an attribute that has any stability promises attached to it. I'll leave the rest for the project team to address, as I am not sure I can fairly represent their views... :-) -John > admin I can't take that risk and replace it no matter how sure I am that > it's the same thing. It's just not done. And I don't trust anyone but > Sun to pay attention to the Stability that Sun assigns things in > Solaris. I've seen too many applications that assumed too much about > Solaris, and on most of them I wasn't in a posisiotn to have it fixed, > so I don't muck with /usr or anything Solaris installs except config files. > > The problem's I have with the 3 things above are: > > 1. I only use sources today that come from the origin. > 2. I don't always build everything that Sun might include. > 3. I view /usr as sacred and 'machine local'. I never change anything in > it if possible. I also don't want to be forced to replicate my new > builds out to 1000's of machines. > > #3 is likely to be a big issue for any customers who also fit into one > category that I think James Carlson described. The group that wants the > same versions of GNU programs on all hosts in a heterogeneous (AIX, > HPUX, IRIX, Solaris) network, will also probably want all of those > programs in the same location on those hosts. These are the customers > who are going to throw out the SFW stuff, who are *always* going to > rebuild their versions their way, probably without Sun Patches, and are > *always* going to install the stuff in a local directory. These I > imagine will be the customers that complain the most about this change. > > Including these utilities hasn't (as someone said) made life easier for > those out there that build software. I beleive that many Admins out > there only build software with the tools that they've also already > built. It won't help to have the tools packaged into Solaris. They'll > use their tools anyway. > > When GNOME starts to depend on these packages, I won't be able to > install GNOME either. Then I'll be forced to build it also. This will be > more work not less. > > I don't want to be a developer. I don't want to create my own > distribution, and I don't want to replace all of what sun has made for > me. I want the flexibility to overlay what I do choose to build over > what Sun supplies. > > I think I've lost that now. At the least it's going to be much harder. > That's a shame. I won't know for sure till I actually see it in action > and see what I can come up with to work around it. > > I guess I'm done venting now. Thanks for reading it. If I have > misunderstood anything please let me know. > > -Kyle > > --Boundary_(ID_7QSMB1tWB+He/PJNiIhNeg) Content-type: message/rfc822; name="Attached Message" Return-path: Received: from d1-sfbay-10.sun.com ([192.18.39.120]) by nedge2-mail1.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTP id <0JCR008OP7OCKD70@nedge2-mail1.sfbay.sun.com> for plocher@nedge2-mail1.sfbay.Sun.COM; Wed, 31 Jan 2007 14:26:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-sfbay-10.sun.com by d1-sfbay-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JCR00K017NNQV00@d1-sfbay-10.sun.com> for plocher@nedge2-mail1.sfbay.Sun.COM (ORCPT John.Plocher@Sun.COM); Wed, 31 Jan 2007 14:26:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from phys-nedge2-1.sfbay.sun.com ([10.4.135.16]) by d1-sfbay-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTP id <0JCR00DQ97OCNT2Y@d1-sfbay-10.sun.com> for plocher@nedge2-mail1.sfbay.Sun.COM (ORCPT John.Plocher@Sun.COM); Wed, 31 Jan 2007 14:26:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from sfbaymail1sca.SFBay.Sun.COM ([129.145.154.35]) by nedge2-mail1.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTP id <0JCR008ON7OCKD70@nedge2-mail1.sfbay.sun.com> for plocher@nedge2-mail1.sfbay.Sun.COM (ORCPT John.Plocher@Sun.COM); Wed, 31 Jan 2007 14:26:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sfbaymail1sca.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0VMQZPP022844 for ; Wed, 31 Jan 2007 14:26:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l0VMQSNs019427 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:John.Plocher@sun.com>; Wed, 31 Jan 2007 22:26:34 +0000 (GMT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCR0000L7O9YJ00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for John.Plocher@sun.com (ORCPT John.Plocher@Sun.COM); Wed, 31 Jan 2007 14:26:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com ([192.18.98.36]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCR003KW7O80SA0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for John.Plocher@sun.com (ORCPT John.Plocher@Sun.COM); Wed, 31 Jan 2007 14:26:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay12.sun.com (relay12.sun.com [217.140.40.34] (may be forged)) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l0VMQVQI003573 for ; Wed, 31 Jan 2007 15:26:32 -0700 (MST) Received: from mms13es.sun.com ([160.41.223.54] [160.41.223.54]) by relay12.sun.com with ESMTP for John.Plocher@Sun.COM; Wed, 31 Jan 2007 22:26:31 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay13.sun.com (relay13.sun.com [217.140.40.54]) by mms13es.sun.com with ESMTP for John.Plocher@Sun.COM; Wed, 31 Jan 2007 22:26:28 +0000 (Z) Received: from exprod8og54.obsmtp.com ([64.18.3.90] [64.18.3.90]) by relay13.sun.com for John.Plocher@Sun.COM; Wed, 31 Jan 2007 22:22:32 +0000 (Z) Received: from source ([65.126.230.68]) by exprod8ob54.obsmtp.com ([64.18.7.12]) with SMTP; Wed, 31 Jan 2007 14:21:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([10.30.8.236]) by wsb-srvr-02.bigbandnet.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 31 Jan 2007 17:21:28 -0500 Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 17:21:27 -0500 From: Kyle McDonald Subject: Re: Community feedback and questions on 2007/047 (/usr/gnu) In-reply-to: <45C10C3F.4020807@Sun.Com> To: John Plocher Message-id: <45C11667.9070501@BigBandNet.COM> X-Envelope-from: John.Plocher@Sun.COM X-Envelope-to: PSARC-Ext <@smarthost.sun.com:PSARC-Ext@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <45B0F008.7030607@sun.com> <45B5F645.6040406@Sun.COM> <45B63352.7050009@sun.com> <45B63D75.5060708@Sun.Com> <45C0FE18.8000408@BigBandNet.COM> <45C10C3F.4020807@Sun.Com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) Original-recipient: rfc822;John.Plocher@Sun.COM X-OriginalArrivalTime: 31 Jan 2007 22:21:28.0125 (UTC) FILETIME=[26BDB6D0:01C74586] John Plocher wrote: > Kyle McDonald wrote: >> Hi John, >> >> I was on the call today. > > Thanks for calling in. > > I'll answer/clarify what I can; do you mind if I forward this > on to the ARC community and project team for additional comments? > That's fine. Considering the case was closed today I didn't want to annoy anyone with more venting. :) >> the whole meeting, I'm left feeling like the Use Model of >> administrators (especially of large heterogenous installations) is >> either not well understood or is not considered important enough by >> those >> making the decisions. It seems too focused on a one machine,one admin >> model. Maybe I missed something. > > > I'd have to agree that the discussion was biased towards Solaris and > didn't show much (if any) understanding or sensitivity towards > heterogeneous environments. > > >> I'd like to know more about how these meetings run and how the public >> can interact in them. I noticed a disconnect to day, in that the >> email threads all seemed to imply that attracting new users to >> OpenSolaris, and making sure they had a good first experience was the >> driving force > > There are many ways whereby a new user's experience could be improved. > I think this project (ARC and project team) focused more on "/usr/bin > is the answer" than "is this the best way to solve the problem". But > that is only my opinion. > That's a good way to describe what I got from the discussion too. It was a "this is the way it is, don't talk about it, even if problems have appeared since then" message. >> behind this. However in the meeting I got the idea that Sun's reason >> was more to make things easier on itself and to not have to have >> several of it's groups doing redundant work. > > One of the key architectural foundations at Sun is that each component > of the system can appear in only one package. (See the 1991/061 ARC case: > http://www.opensolaris.org/os/community/arc/caselog/1991/061/opinion/ ) > > This combines with a distribution model that focuses on binary > compatability > and stability over time to make a culture where source code replication > between projects is frowned upon. >> >> In the meeting today, sentiment of the group that i heard is that if >> I want to install GNU or other free software programs myself either >> newer versions, or customized with my configure options, then I have to: >> >> 1. Get the sources and patches Sun uses >> 2. Compile everything myself (not necc. the just thing i want to >> replace) >> 3. Install what I compile into the same location as Sun puts it. >> >> For 3, I heard the term 'deliver packages' used instead of 'make >> install'? Are they equivalent in this case? Or a were people talking > > I think they are equivalent. "make install" is difficult to audit, > replicate and distribute, while "pkgadd -d thispackage.pkg" doesn't > have those problems. > > >> about actually making packages and then running pkgadd? The term >> 'deliver' to me carries more of a meaning for someone creating a >> Distribution. > > As an admin who wants a newer version of , I am faced with > three choices: > > 1) Go to the FSF web site, download the sources, do the > configure/make/install dance on every system, or > or 1A) configure/make/install on a NFS mounted directory for everyone to share. Optionally repeat for each platform you support. Use the automounter to make each platform mount the right binaries. This is the option that is much harder to do. Without some really ugly hacks. I guess this is the core of my frustration. I worked at Sun for over 7 years. I've worked with SunOS 4 and Solaris for over 12. In that time I've gained a lot of respect for the engineering decisions that are made or not made in Solaris and the designs that go with that. (Linux on the other hand seems so chaotic and un-designed) Flexibility, in the past, always seemed like it was desirable to the powers that control Solaris... It's always been important in everything I develop. If it doesn't overly complicate things, and allows another useful method of working, I try to accommodate it in my work especially when it comes to removing something that was already flexible and in use by customers in the past. I guess I was just really surprised, not by the desire to keep things visible in /usr/bin, but more by the unwillingness to discuss compromising on something that would allow both ways to work and coexist. I would have thought allowing the most choice out at the furthest levels of use (admin or user - not build or install) would have been a higher priority than it appeared today. > 2) Go to the OS.o SFW community, download the latest > packages containing , and install/upgrade > every system, or I'm not now, nor will I be anytime soon, setup to build Solaris itself. I'm happy with SX or SXCR. I don't think that should be a requirement for this either. I'm truely a user, admin, and customer. Not an OS developer. I hang out on OS.org to gain insight and hopefully influence with feedback the features that appear not in OpenSolaris, but Solaris it self. I'm a Sun Customer, and I don't see myself switching away from Solaris. I am curious though what the difference will be (once all the missing parts of Solaris are opened up) between Solaris and OpenSolaris. When I originally thought the issue was with providing a more linux like environment to developers who migrate to OpenSolaris, the thought occurred to me - Why not make this change only on Open Solaris. Now of course I see there is more at work here. > > 3) Do some combination of the above, melding the latest FSF > sources with the OS.O SFW diffs, configure/make/package > and nstall/upgrade every system. > > Nowhere does this imply that you would need to create or distribute > a new distro to anyone else... > Well yeah I knew I wouldn't be forced to do that. But I was wondering what some of the voices I heard talking thought it was that I was trying to do. >> How can I know what assumptions an ISV like Cadence, or Synopsys, >> may have made about something officially shipped with Solaris. > > We can only hope that they pay attention to the exported interface > stability > of the things that they consume. "Officially Shipped With" is not an > attribute that has any stability promises attached to it. > Exactly, unlike other parts of Solaris, the ARC can't enforce the use of interfaces by ISV's. Unfortunately as a single user, I don't have the pull with an ISV to force them to do it right. If I've recompiled something in /usr/bin my way, they're not going to care what the interface stability is, they're going to tell me it's 'unsupported' and that it's my problem. So I can't take the risk of overwriting anything in /usr and therefore suggesting that I recompile my own and install it in /usr is a non-starter. > I'll leave the rest for the project team to address, as I am not sure > I can > fairly represent their views... :-) > That's fair. Again, thanks for listening. -Kyle --Boundary_(ID_7QSMB1tWB+He/PJNiIhNeg)-- From jek3@sun.com Wed Jan 31 18:14:41 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l112EdjY006808 for ; Wed, 31 Jan 2007 18:14:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l112E5PK016374; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 10:14:27 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCR00709I7ZXY00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 31 Jan 2007 18:14:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from jurassic.eng.sun.com ([129.146.106.105]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCR00C9SI7ZQEE0@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 31 Jan 2007 18:14:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from [129.150.12.53] (vpn-129-150-12-53.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.12.53]) by jurassic.eng.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l112EDJN288005; Wed, 31 Jan 2007 18:14:14 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 16:12:19 -1000 From: Joseph Kowalski Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <20070131171533.GJ28618@binky.Central.Sun.COM> To: Nicolas Williams Cc: Kyle McDonald , barts@eng.sun.com, gww@eng.sun.com, Joerg Schilling , John Plocher , PSARC-EXT@sun.com, Marcel Telka , Darren.Reed@sun.com Message-id: <45C14C83.2000307@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <45B92138.6040307@sun.com> <45B929EE.6090101@Sun.Com> <45B92FF5.9010105@sun.com> <45BA12AA.9020708@BigBandNet.COM> <45BA7E0E.5090809@sun.com> <45BA8B0E.6030400@Sun.Com> <45BA960D.4040405@Sun.Com> <45BA9FC0.6050302@sun.com> <45BFC0C9.1080503@BigBandNet.COM> <45BFEDA0.7090104@sun.com> <20070131171533.GJ28618@binky.Central.Sun.COM> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060925) Status: RO Content-Length: 1124 Nicolas Williams wrote: > On Tue, Jan 30, 2007 at 03:15:12PM -1000, Joseph Kowalski wrote: > >> Anyway, suffice it to say, we can't even consider mucking with the >> user's setting of PATH. >> Its a non-starter. >> > > Could you clarify something? Just what exactly is a non-starter? > > Mucking with the user's PATH without asking them? (I hope so!) > Yes. > Or is any PATH management tool out of the question as well? > > I.e., can we build a GUI tool that can manage users' PATH settings? > > And if we can, can it be invoked on first login, on first login after > update, after patch? > > Because I could see a voluntary PATH management tool as useful. > > Of course, because shell dot files are scripts whose flow control we > could not analyze in such a tool, such a tool would be limited to users > whose shell dot files adhere to some conventions (which the account > skeleton's would). > > Nico > I've never seen this proposed or discussed, so I can only give a personal opinion. I see no reason this couldn't be implemented. After all, vi is such a tool, just not a very friendly one. - jek3 From jek3@sun.com Wed Jan 31 18:20:24 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l112KNPu006834 for ; Wed, 31 Jan 2007 18:20:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l112KF1H019074; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 02:20:17 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCR00H0HIHRV000@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 31 Jan 2007 18:20:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from jurassic.eng.sun.com ([129.146.106.31]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCR00A1EIHR9770@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 31 Jan 2007 18:20:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from [129.150.12.53] (vpn-129-150-12-53.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.12.53]) by jurassic.eng.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l112KAP7293513; Wed, 31 Jan 2007 18:20:11 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 16:18:17 -1000 From: Joseph Kowalski Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <45C0D8BA.306@BigBandNet.COM> To: Kyle McDonald Cc: Nicolas Williams , Hugh McIntyre , barts@eng.sun.com, gww@eng.sun.com, Joerg Schilling , John Plocher , psarc-ext@sun.com, Marcel Telka , Darren.Reed@sun.com Message-id: <45C14DE9.5080905@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <45B92FF5.9010105@sun.com> <45BA12AA.9020708@BigBandNet.COM> <45BA7E0E.5090809@sun.com> <45BA8B0E.6030400@Sun.Com> <45BA960D.4040405@Sun.Com> <45BA9FC0.6050302@sun.com> <45BFC0C9.1080503@BigBandNet.COM> <45BFEDA0.7090104@sun.com> <20070131171533.GJ28618@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45C0D3D9.7060909@mcintyreweb.com> <20070131174930.GL28618@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45C0D8BA.306@BigBandNet.COM> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060925) Status: RO Content-Length: 585 Kyle McDonald wrote: > I read it that /bin/login should never provide any other PATH than > what is already provided. Right. > I've assumed that it also meant that no changes to the PATH should be > done in the default /etc/.login or /etc/profile also but I'm not clear > on that. It actually doesn't go quite this far. I think this could be done, but we would have to consider it very, very carefully. In other words, a very contentious and difficult change, but not a "non-starter". Personally, I'd never take it on. If "you have a life" this could take it! 8^) - jek3 From jek3@sun.com Wed Jan 31 19:10:16 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l113AFhZ007669 for ; Wed, 31 Jan 2007 19:10:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l1139weo000490; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 11:10:11 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCR0030PKSWTX00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 31 Jan 2007 19:10:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from jurassic.eng.sun.com ([129.146.228.50]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCR00AQQKSW9K90@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 31 Jan 2007 19:10:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from [129.150.12.53] (vpn-129-150-12-53.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.12.53]) by jurassic.eng.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l113A6cg312151; Wed, 31 Jan 2007 19:10:07 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 17:08:13 -1000 From: Joseph Kowalski Subject: Re: External feedback on the ARC review of PSARC 2007/047 (/usr/gnu) In-reply-to: <45C11DEE.20608@Sun.Com> To: John Plocher Cc: PSARC-Ext@sun.com Message-id: <45C1599D.30508@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <45C11DEE.20608@Sun.Com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060925) Status: RO Content-Length: 1066 John Plocher wrote: > The following is a follow up to today's approved /usr/gnu ARC case > from one of the community menbers who participated. > > -John Text deleted. Many interesting observations. The most telling is "make install" vs "pkgadd". I believe that yes, the ARCs/Sun believe that pkgadd of fully tested, productized software is what the majority of our customers do and want. Quite the converse of the supposed "local machine" focus, its what the customers such as Goldman-Sachs, Ford, Boeing, the Navy and even Pixar want. Packages leave an audit trail. "make install" does not. If this view is to change, it needs to be based upon real data, not our personal working environment (and we are all somewhat guilty of that). The point of OpenSolaris is not to be another Linux with the Solaris kernel (although Nexentia (sp?) is doing that). Its intended to to be unique in its ability to accel in meeting the needs of Fortune 500 corporations while being very usable to the small shop. At least that's my belief/understanding. - jek3 From nw141292@binky.Central.Sun.COM Thu Feb 1 08:03:51 2007 Received: from sunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM (sunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.17]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l11G3ps7009421 for ; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 08:03:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.11.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l11G3gu04390; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 09:03:42 -0700 (MST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JCS00A0HKM5WS00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Thu, 01 Feb 2007 08:03:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM ([129.153.128.104]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JCS004R1KM3ZZ30@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Thu, 01 Feb 2007 08:03:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l11G37qk023972; Thu, 01 Feb 2007 10:03:07 -0600 (CST) Received: (from nw141292@localhost) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/Submit) id l11G36Pf023971; Thu, 01 Feb 2007 10:03:06 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 10:03:06 -0600 From: Nicolas Williams Subject: Re: 2007/047 /usr/gnu: gnu(5) manual page In-reply-to: <45C14C83.2000307@sun.com> To: Joseph Kowalski Cc: Kyle McDonald , barts@eng.sun.com, gww@eng.sun.com, Joerg Schilling , John Plocher , PSARC-EXT@sun.com, Marcel Telka , Darren.Reed@sun.com Message-id: <20070201160305.GY28618@binky.Central.Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <45B92FF5.9010105@sun.com> <45BA12AA.9020708@BigBandNet.COM> <45BA7E0E.5090809@sun.com> <45BA8B0E.6030400@Sun.Com> <45BA960D.4040405@Sun.Com> <45BA9FC0.6050302@sun.com> <45BFC0C9.1080503@BigBandNet.COM> <45BFEDA0.7090104@sun.com> <20070131171533.GJ28618@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <45C14C83.2000307@sun.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.7i Status: RO Content-Length: 771 On Wed, Jan 31, 2007 at 04:12:19PM -1000, Joseph Kowalski wrote: > Nicolas Williams wrote: > >Could you clarify something? Just what exactly is a non-starter? > > > >Mucking with the user's PATH without asking them? (I hope so!) > > Yes. > >Or is any PATH management tool out of the question as well? > I've never seen this proposed or discussed, so I can only give a > personal opinion. > I see no reason this couldn't be implemented. After all, vi is such a > tool, just not > a very friendly one. OK. I ask because a GUI tool that let's you pick the environment you prefer (GNU, XPG6, XPG4, SunOS 4.x, Solaris, CSW, Schilly, ... :) is, at the very least, a way to visualize what this and related cases are all about. Thanks for the clarification. Nico -- From sacadmin Fri Feb 23 14:49:03 2007 Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com (phorcys.East.Sun.COM [129.148.174.143]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l1NMn2jv028977 for ; Fri, 23 Feb 2007 14:49:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.0+Sun/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l1NMn2ma019188 for ; Fri, 23 Feb 2007 17:49:02 -0500 (EST) Received: (from carlsonj@localhost) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.0+Sun/8.14.0/Submit) id l1NMn26o019185; Fri, 23 Feb 2007 17:49:02 -0500 (EST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <17887.28509.883542.888128@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 17:49:01 -0500 From: James Carlson To: psarc@sac.sfbay.sun.com Subject: Opinion for review: 2007/047 /usr/gnu X-Mailer: VM 7.01 under Emacs 21.3.1 Status: RO Content-Length: 5499 Please review and submit comments by 03/02/2007. sun microsystems Systems Architecture Committee _________________________________________________________________ Subject: /usr/gnu Submitted by: Stephen Hahn File: PSARC/2007/047/opinion.ms Date: January 31st, 2007 Committee: James D. Carlson, Kais Belgaied, Ed Gould, Joseph Kowalski, Tim Marsland, Glenn Skinner, Bill Sommerfeld, Gary Winiger. Product Approval Committee: Solaris PAC solaris-pac@sun.com 1. Summary This project builds on "Enabling serendipitous discovery" (PSARC 2005/185) and proposes two new policies for Solaris related to GNU/FSF-derived software that conflicts with Solaris components. The first is the creation of a new "/usr/gnu" hierarchy to be delivered with Solaris, and popu- lated with GNU/FSF-derived objects that conflict with Solaris objects. The second is a policy relating to 'g'- prefixed variants in the standard file system locations. 2. Decision & Precedence Information The project is approved as specified in reference [1]. The project may deliver in a patch/micro release of Solaris. See the final specification in reference [1] for details on the new policies. 3. Interfaces The project exports the following interfaces. ____________________________________________________________ | Interfaces Exported | |___________________|________________|_____________________| |Interface | Classification| Comments | |___________________|________________|_____________________| |/usr/share/info | Committed | Single directory | |___________________|________________|_____________________| PSARC/2007/047 Copyright 2007 Sun Microsystems - 2 - ____________________________________________________________ | Interfaces Exported | |___________________|________________|_____________________| |Interface | Classification| Comments | |___________________|________________|_____________________| |/usr/gnu | Committed | Directory hierarchy| |/usr/gnu/bin | Committed | | |/usr/gnu/sbin | Committed | | |/usr/gnu/include | Committed | | |/usr/gnu/lib | Committed | | |/usr/gnu/libexec | Committed | | |/usr/gnu/share | Committed | | |/usr/gnu/share/info| Committed | | |/usr/gnu/share/man | Committed | | |/etc/gnu | Committed | Directory hierarchy| |/var/gnu | Committed | Directory hierarchy| |/var/gnu/com | Committed | | |___________________|________________|_____________________| 4. Opinion 4.1. Why GNU? The existing precedent for XPG and UCB environments is based on ideal or historic systems that the user may need to emu- late. Several ARC members asked why GNU in particular (rather than some GNU-using system, such as a particular Linux distribution) was an interesting reference point, and why we should not be examining other possible software repo- sitories. The project team made several points in response. First, this project deals with conflict resolution, and conflicts are an issue primarily with Unix-like environments. GNU is the only alternative Unix-like repository of any signifi- cance, given our intertwined BSD history, and the only one expected to exist in the future. Further, close integration of these tools into Solaris is a great benefit for JDS and other consolidations, both in building open source software and in supporting applications. The ARC members agreed with this answer. 4.2. Full Versus Sparse Directory Several ARC members objected to the fully-populated symlink forest in the original proposal, as it's both less flexible than a sparse (conflicts-only) directory and unnecessarily different from our precedents. The team agreed to update the specification to remove the symlinks. PSARC/2007/047 Copyright 2007 Sun Microsystems - 3 - 4.3. Administrative Utilities Are Special A few ARC members pointed out that administrative applica- tions designed for Linux or some other GNU system are unlikely to work correctly on Solaris, whatever their mer- its. The team agreed to update the specification to exclude the new policy from applying to things that are deemed to be administrative in nature. An unfortunate problem here is that what is considered "administrative" is sometimes subjective. The distinctions are sometimes based on how the utilities are used rather than what they do. This is an issue that may need to be examined again as future projects use the policies set forth in this case. 5. Minority Opinion(s) None 6. Advisory Information None 7. Appendices 7.1. Appendix A: Technical Changes Required None 7.2. Appendix B: Technical Changes Advised None 7.3. Appendix C: Reference Material Unless stated otherwise, path names are relative to the case directory PSARC/2007/047. 1. Final specification File: final.spec.txt PSARC/2007/047 Copyright 2007 Sun Microsystems From sacadmin Fri Feb 23 19:15:44 2007 Received: from engmail3mpk.sfbay.Sun.COM (engmail3mpk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.26]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l1O3Fiif011238 for ; Fri, 23 Feb 2007 19:15:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from marduk.eng.sun.com (marduk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.108.224]) by engmail3mpk.sfbay.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l1O3FiZ2019077; Fri, 23 Feb 2007 19:15:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from marduk.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by marduk.eng.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l1O3F5T2004546; Fri, 23 Feb 2007 19:15:05 -0800 (PST) Received: (from gww@localhost) by marduk.eng.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.11/Submit) id l1O3F5Os004545; Fri, 23 Feb 2007 19:15:05 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 19:15:05 -0800 (PST) From: Gary Winiger Message-Id: <200702240315.l1O3F5Os004545@marduk.eng.sun.com> To: james.d.carlson@sun.com, psarc@sac.sfbay.sun.com Subject: Re: Opinion for review: 2007/047 /usr/gnu Status: RO Content-Length: 2579 > 4.3. Administrative Utilities Are Special > > A few ARC members pointed out that administrative applica- > tions designed for Linux or some other GNU system are > unlikely to work correctly on Solaris, whatever their mer- > its. The team agreed to update the specification to exclude > the new policy from applying to things that are deemed to be > administrative in nature. > > An unfortunate problem here is that what is considered > "administrative" is sometimes subjective. The distinctions > are sometimes based on how the utilities are used rather > than what they do. This is an issue that may need to be > examined again as future projects use the policies set forth > in this case. I think the various precedents that I mentioned in 2007/048 Include GNU coreutils 6.4 when a similar issue was raised should be referred to here. I wrote this in particular relative to suid programs -- none of which were included in that case: "I don't recall that any part of this proposal includes suid programs. Nor any part of this proposal (except for the codification of what /usr/gnu/* and friends) that I had particular issue with. I would point out the various precedences: PSARC/1999/555 Getting with the Freeware Program PSARC/2000/488 Solaris/Linux Commands Compatibility and PSARC/2005/185 Enabling serendipitous discovery And possibly other cases. And Policies: http://opensolaris.org/os/community/arc/policies/shared-sharable/ http://opensolaris.org/os/community/arc/policies/libraries/ http://opensolaris.org/os/community/arc/policies/SMF-policy/ http://opensolaris.org/os/community/arc/policies/NITS-policy/ http://opensolaris.org/os/community/arc/policies/PAM/ http://opensolaris.org/os/community/arc/policies/audit-policy/ And possibly other policies (such as something I'm hoping to clarify as the "Solaris Security Policy") That apply in general. I don't believe it's proper to to address any one without the context of the others." Perhaps: "A number of ARC precedents and Sun policies cover what are often thought of as administrative utilities. These precedents include PSARC/1999/555 Getting with the Freeware Program, and PSARC/2000/488 Solaris/Linux Commands Compatibility, and PSARC/2005/185 Enabling serendipitous discovery. And most all the Solaris policies noted in http://opensolaris.org/os/community/arc/policies/." Gary.. From sac-owner Fri Mar 9 14:13:59 2007 Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com (phorcys.East.Sun.COM [129.148.174.143]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l29MDwqn003169 for ; Fri, 9 Mar 2007 14:13:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.0+Sun/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l29MDwtW013894 for ; Fri, 9 Mar 2007 17:13:58 -0500 (EST) Received: (from carlsonj@localhost) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.0+Sun/8.14.0/Submit) id l29MDw2X013891; Fri, 9 Mar 2007 17:13:58 -0500 (EST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <17905.56358.314287.990495@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 17:13:58 -0500 From: James Carlson To: sac-review@sac.sfbay.sun.com Subject: Opinion for review: PSARC 2007/047 /usr/gnu X-Mailer: VM 7.01 under Emacs 21.3.1 Status: RO Content-Length: 5715 Please review the following opinion, and submit any comments by 03/16/2007. sun microsystems Systems Architecture Committee _________________________________________________________________ Subject: /usr/gnu Submitted by: Stephen Hahn File: PSARC/2007/047/opinion.ms Date: January 31st, 2007 Committee: James D. Carlson, Kais Belgaied, Ed Gould, Joseph Kowalski, Tim Marsland, Glenn Skinner, Bill Sommerfeld, Gary Winiger. Product Approval Committee: Solaris PAC solaris-pac@sun.com 1. Summary This project builds on "Enabling serendipitous discovery" (PSARC 2005/185) and proposes two new policies for Solaris related to GNU/FSF-derived software that conflicts with Solaris components. The first is the creation of a new "/usr/gnu" hierarchy to be delivered with Solaris, and popu- lated with GNU/FSF-derived objects that conflict with Solaris objects. The second is a policy relating to 'g'- prefixed variants in the standard file system locations. 2. Decision & Precedence Information The project is approved as specified in reference [1]. The project may deliver in a patch/micro release of Solaris. See the final specification in reference [1] for details on the new policies. 3. Interfaces The project exports the following interfaces. ____________________________________________________________ | Interfaces Exported | |___________________|________________|_____________________| |Interface | Classification| Comments | |___________________|________________|_____________________| |/usr/share/info | Committed | Single directory | |___________________|________________|_____________________| PSARC/2007/047 Copyright 2007 Sun Microsystems - 2 - ____________________________________________________________ | Interfaces Exported | |___________________|________________|_____________________| |Interface | Classification| Comments | |___________________|________________|_____________________| |/usr/gnu | Committed | Directory hierarchy| |/usr/gnu/bin | Committed | | |/usr/gnu/sbin | Committed | | |/usr/gnu/include | Committed | | |/usr/gnu/lib | Committed | | |/usr/gnu/libexec | Committed | | |/usr/gnu/share | Committed | | |/usr/gnu/share/info| Committed | | |/usr/gnu/share/man | Committed | | |/etc/gnu | Committed | Directory hierarchy| |/var/gnu | Committed | Directory hierarchy| |/var/gnu/com | Committed | | |___________________|________________|_____________________| 4. Opinion 4.1. Why GNU? The existing precedent for XPG and UCB environments is based on ideal or historic systems that the user may need to emu- late. Several ARC members asked why GNU in particular (rather than some GNU-using system, such as a particular Linux distribution) was an interesting reference point, and why we should not be examining other possible software repo- sitories. The project team made several points in response. First, this project deals with conflict resolution, and conflicts are an issue primarily with Unix-like environments. GNU is the only alternative Unix-like repository of any signifi- cance, given our intertwined BSD history, and the only one expected to exist in the future. Further, close integration of these tools into Solaris is a great benefit for JDS and other consolidations, both in building open source software and in supporting applications. The ARC members agreed with this answer. 4.2. Full Versus Sparse Directory Several ARC members objected to the fully-populated symlink forest in the original proposal, as it's both less flexible than a sparse (conflicts-only) directory and unnecessarily different from our precedents. The team agreed to update the specification to remove the symlinks. PSARC/2007/047 Copyright 2007 Sun Microsystems - 3 - 4.3. Administrative Utilities Excluded A few ARC members pointed out that administrative applica- tions designed for Linux or some other GNU system are unlikely to work correctly on Solaris, whatever their mer- its. The team agreed to update the specification to exclude the new policy from applying to things that are deemed to be administrative in nature. One important issue is that what is considered "administra- tive" is sometimes subjective. The distinctions are some- times based on how the utilities are used rather than what they do. This is an issue that may need to be examined again as future projects use the policies set forth in this case. The ARC members did not review a proposal to include admin- istrative utilities, but it's expected that such items in a future case would be subject to much more substantial review and constraint. 5. Minority Opinion(s) None 6. Advisory Information None 7. Appendices 7.1. Appendix A: Technical Changes Required None 7.2. Appendix B: Technical Changes Advised None 7.3. Appendix C: Reference Material Unless stated otherwise, path names are relative to the case directory PSARC/2007/047. 1. Final specification File: final.spec.txt PSARC/2007/047 Copyright 2007 Sun Microsystems From sac-owner Wed Apr 4 14:50:07 2007 Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com (phorcys.East.Sun.COM [129.148.174.143]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l34Lo6T5003801; Wed, 4 Apr 2007 14:50:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.0+Sun/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l34LnYNw017686; Wed, 4 Apr 2007 17:49:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from carlsonj@localhost) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.0+Sun/8.14.0/Submit) id l34LnX6M017683; Wed, 4 Apr 2007 17:49:34 -0400 (EDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <17940.7533.926025.730667@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 17:49:33 -0400 From: James Carlson To: sac-opinion@sac.sfbay.sun.com cc: solaris-pac-opinion@sac.sfbay.sun.com Subject: Opinion: PSARC 2007/047 /usr/gnu X-Mailer: VM 7.01 under Emacs 21.3.1 Status: RO Content-Length: 5638 sun microsystems Systems Architecture Committee _________________________________________________________________ Subject: /usr/gnu Submitted by: Stephen Hahn File: PSARC/2007/047/opinion.ms Date: January 31st, 2007 Committee: James D. Carlson, Kais Belgaied, Ed Gould, Joseph Kowalski, Tim Marsland, Glenn Skinner, Bill Sommerfeld, Gary Winiger. Product Approval Committee: Solaris PAC solaris-pac@sun.com 1. Summary This project builds on "Enabling serendipitous discovery" (PSARC 2005/185) and proposes two new policies for Solaris related to GNU/FSF-derived software that conflicts with Solaris components. The first is the creation of a new "/usr/gnu" hierarchy to be delivered with Solaris, and popu- lated with GNU/FSF-derived objects that conflict with Solaris objects. The second is a policy relating to 'g'- prefixed variants in the standard file system locations. 2. Decision & Precedence Information The project is approved as specified in reference [1]. The project may deliver in a patch/micro release of Solaris. See the final specification in reference [1] for details on the new policies. 3. Interfaces The project exports the following interfaces. ____________________________________________________________ | Interfaces Exported | |___________________|________________|_____________________| |Interface | Classification| Comments | |___________________|________________|_____________________| |/usr/share/info | Committed | Single directory | |___________________|________________|_____________________| PSARC/2007/047 Copyright 2007 Sun Microsystems - 2 - ____________________________________________________________ | Interfaces Exported | |___________________|________________|_____________________| |Interface | Classification| Comments | |___________________|________________|_____________________| |/usr/gnu | Committed | Directory hierarchy| |/usr/gnu/bin | Committed | | |/usr/gnu/sbin | Committed | | |/usr/gnu/include | Committed | | |/usr/gnu/lib | Committed | | |/usr/gnu/libexec | Committed | | |/usr/gnu/share | Committed | | |/usr/gnu/share/info| Committed | | |/usr/gnu/share/man | Committed | | |/etc/gnu | Committed | Directory hierarchy| |/var/gnu | Committed | Directory hierarchy| |/var/gnu/com | Committed | | |___________________|________________|_____________________| 4. Opinion 4.1. Why GNU? The existing precedent for XPG and UCB environments is based on ideal or historic systems that the user may need to emu- late. Several ARC members asked why GNU in particular (rather than some GNU-using system, such as a particular Linux distribution) was an interesting reference point, and why we should not be examining other possible software repo- sitories. The project team made several points in response. First, this project deals with conflict resolution, and conflicts are an issue primarily with Unix-like environments. GNU is the only alternative Unix-like repository of any signifi- cance, given our intertwined BSD history, and the only one expected to exist in the future. Further, close integration of these tools into Solaris is a great benefit for JDS and other consolidations, both in building open source software and in supporting applications. The ARC members agreed with this answer. 4.2. Full Versus Sparse Directory Several ARC members objected to the fully-populated symlink forest in the original proposal, as it's both less flexible than a sparse (conflicts-only) directory and unnecessarily different from our precedents. The team agreed to update the specification to remove the symlinks. PSARC/2007/047 Copyright 2007 Sun Microsystems - 3 - 4.3. Administrative Utilities Excluded A few ARC members pointed out that administrative applica- tions designed for Linux or some other GNU system are unlikely to work correctly on Solaris, whatever their mer- its. The team agreed to update the specification to exclude the new policy from applying to things that are deemed to be administrative in nature. One important issue is that what is considered "administra- tive" is sometimes subjective. The distinctions are some- times based on how the utilities are used rather than what they do. This is an issue that may need to be examined again as future projects use the policies set forth in this case. The ARC members did not review a proposal to include admin- istrative utilities, but it's expected that such items in a future case would be subject to much more substantial review and constraint. 5. Minority Opinion(s) None 6. Advisory Information None 7. Appendices 7.1. Appendix A: Technical Changes Required None 7.2. Appendix B: Technical Changes Advised None 7.3. Appendix C: Reference Material Unless stated otherwise, path names are relative to the case directory PSARC/2007/047. 1. Final specification File: final.spec.txt PSARC/2007/047 Copyright 2007 Sun Microsystems