From sacadmin Wed Mar 28 11:47:25 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l2SIlOvp004178 for ; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 11:47:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l2SIlBKC028400 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:psarc@sun.com>; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 02:47:23 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JFM00E0BMUXA800@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for psarc@sun.com (ORCPT psarc@sun.com); Wed, 28 Mar 2007 11:47:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com ([192.18.98.36]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JFM00IRBMUX36D0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for psarc@sun.com (ORCPT psarc@sun.com); Wed, 28 Mar 2007 11:47:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fe-amer-09.sun.com ([192.18.108.183]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l2SIlLEA023622 for ; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 18:47:21 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.mail-amer.sun.com by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JFM00F01M5P9Y00@mail-amer.sun.com> (original mail from John.Fischer@Sun.COM) for psarc@sun.com (ORCPT psarc@sun.com); Wed, 28 Mar 2007 12:47:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from 129.145.154.81 ([129.145.154.81]) by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JFM004YAMTV14JW@mail-amer.sun.com> for psarc@sun.com (ORCPT psarc@sun.com); Wed, 28 Mar 2007 12:46:44 -0600 (MDT) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 11:46:43 -0700 From: John Fischer Subject: PSARC/2007/188 - GNU readline Sender: John.Fischer@sun.com To: psarc@sun.com Cc: John Fischer , Dermot McCluskey Reply-to: John.Fischer@sun.com Message-id: <1175107603.14534.57.camel@sr1-umpk-31> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.6.335 Content-type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Boundary_(ID_YS43pm3jCD4RXkN6kYJB1A)" X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 Status: RO Content-Length: 3634 --Boundary_(ID_YS43pm3jCD4RXkN6kYJB1A) Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT PSARC, I am sponsoring this project for Dermot McCluskey of the JDS group in Dublin Ireland. The case directory contains this proposal and supporting readline HTML documentation from the community website. I have set the timer for Wednesday April 4th, 2007. This project is proposing to integrate the readline libraries into the Solaris WOS in a Patch release of Solaris. It will be following the /usr/gnu recommendation per PSARC/2007/047. Thanks, John --Boundary_(ID_YS43pm3jCD4RXkN6kYJB1A) Content-type: text/plain; charset=ASCII; name=proposal.txt Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: attachment; filename=proposal.txt GNU readline 1. Summary This fast-track introduces GNU readline, version 5.2, into the Solaris WOS. Patch release binding is requested. 2. Discussion GNU readline is a library used for reading lines of text with interactive input and history editing. It is used by a variety of open-source applications including virsh (part of libvirt, which has recently been submitted to ARC [1]). A private copy of readline is currently included with PostgreSQL, which can be removed when this version is integrated. Readline is delivered as two libraries, libreadline and libhistory. The functions for editing lines are in libreadline and the functions for saving and recalling previous command-line history are in libhistory. Both libraries can be used independently, if desired. GNU readline is currently available in the Solaris Companion CD (CCD). This proposal removes it from the CCD and adds it to the SFW consolidation. Further information on readline, including APIs and user and programming guides are available at the GNU readline website [2] and copies of the manuals are in the case directory. GNU readline will be installed in /usr as per the guidelines of PSARC/2007/047, /usr/gnu [3]. 3. Interfaces Exported Interfaces =================== SUNWgnu-readline Uncommitted Package name /usr/lib/libreadline.so.4 Uncommitted Shared object library /usr/lib/libreadline.so Uncommitted Symbolic link /usr/lib/libhistory.so.4 Uncommitted Shared object library /usr/lib/libhistory.so Uncommitted Symbolic link /usr/share/man/man3/readline.3 Uncommitted manpage /usr/share/info/readline.info Uncommitted Info document /usr/share/info/rluserman.info Uncommitted Info document /usr/share/info/history.info Uncommitted Info document /usr/include/readline Uncommitted Directory /usr/include/readline/chardefs.h Uncommitted Header file /usr/include/readline/history.h Uncommitted Header file /usr/include/readline/keymaps.h Uncommitted Header file /usr/include/readline/readline.h Uncommitted Header file /usr/include/readline/rlconf.h Uncommitted Header file /usr/include/readline/rlstdc.h Uncommitted Header file /usr/include/readline/rltypedefs.h Uncommitted Header file /usr/include/readline/tilde.h Uncommitted Header file /usr/demo/readline/Inputrc Uncommitted Example init file 4. References [1] Mark Johnson, PSARC/2007/157: libvirt - a LGPL library to control guest domains [2] http://cnswww.cns.cwru.edu/php/chet/readline/rltop.html [3] S. Hahn, B. Smaalders, and R. Orth, PSARC/2007/047: /usr/gnu APPENDIX A [ copy of http://cnswww.cns.cwru.edu/php/chet/readline/readline.html ] APPENDIX B [ copy of http://cnswww.cns.cwru.edu/php/chet/readline/history.html ] APPENDIX C [ copy of http://cnswww.cns.cwru.edu/php/chet/readline/rluserman.html ] --Boundary_(ID_YS43pm3jCD4RXkN6kYJB1A)-- From sacadmin Wed Mar 28 12:01:12 2007 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l2SJ1CEF005015 for ; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 12:01:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l2SJ19GU019707 for <@sunmail1brm.central.sun.com:psarc@sun.com>; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 12:01:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JFM00K1LNHZ0000@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for psarc@sun.com (ORCPT psarc@sun.com); Wed, 28 Mar 2007 13:01:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: from gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com ([129.156.42.5]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JFM00J9VNHWPA00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for psarc@sun.com (ORCPT psarc@sun.com); Wed, 28 Mar 2007 13:01:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: from d1-emea-09.sun.com (d1-emea-09.sun.com [192.18.2.119]) by gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l2SJ18L9022498 for ; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 19:01:08 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-emea-09.sun.com by d1-emea-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JFM00301NFEMO00@d1-emea-09.sun.com> (original mail from Paul.Jakma@Sun.COM) for psarc@sun.com (ORCPT psarc@sun.com); Wed, 28 Mar 2007 20:01:08 +0100 (BST) Received: from melandri.lan ([62.6.163.68]) by d1-emea-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JFM00EM4NHVZK20@d1-emea-09.sun.com> for psarc@sun.com (ORCPT psarc@sun.com); Wed, 28 Mar 2007 20:01:08 +0100 (BST) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 20:01:03 +0100 (IST) From: Paul Jakma Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/188 - GNU readline In-reply-to: <1175107603.14534.57.camel@sr1-umpk-31> Sender: Paul.Jakma@sun.com To: John Fischer Cc: psarc@sun.com, Dermot McCluskey Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1175107603.14534.57.camel@sr1-umpk-31> Status: RO Content-Length: 945 On Wed, 28 Mar 2007, John Fischer wrote: > I am sponsoring this project for Dermot McCluskey of the JDS > group in Dublin Ireland. The case directory contains this > proposal and supporting readline HTML documentation from the > community website. I have set the timer for Wednesday April > 4th, 2007. > > This project is proposing to integrate the readline libraries > into the Solaris WOS in a Patch release of Solaris. It will > be following the /usr/gnu recommendation per PSARC/2007/047. FWIW, approval and implementation of this case would allow Quagga to deliver the 'vtysh' utility (a GNU readline consumer) to SFW. The case materials fail to mention that Solaris already delivers the 'tecla' library though, used by zoneadm and svccfg amongst other things. Probably should at least mention its existance.. regards, -- Paul Jakma, Solaris Networking http://opensolaris.org/os/project/quagga tel: EMEA x19190 / +353 1 819 9190 From sacadmin Wed Mar 28 13:18:23 2007 Received: from newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (newsunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.245]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l2SKINif007695 for ; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 13:18:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l2SKHOkQ012005; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 14:17:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JFM00M1LR10ZQ00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 13:17:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com ([129.146.17.59]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JFM00ENRR10WO50@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 13:17:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [129.150.12.53] (vpn-129-150-12-53.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.12.53]) by jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.0+Sun/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2SKHNYk352879; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 13:17:23 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 10:17:06 -1000 From: Joseph Kowalski Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/188 - GNU readline In-reply-to: <1175107603.14534.57.camel@sr1-umpk-31> To: John.Fischer@Sun.COM Cc: psarc@Sun.COM, Dermot McCluskey Message-id: <460ACD42.4070504@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1175107603.14534.57.camel@sr1-umpk-31> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060925) Status: RO Content-Length: 2098 John Fischer wrote: > 3. Interfaces > > Exported Interfaces > =================== > SUNWgnu-readline Uncommitted Package name > > /usr/lib/libreadline.so.4 Uncommitted Shared object library > /usr/lib/libreadline.so Uncommitted Symbolic link > > /usr/lib/libhistory.so.4 Uncommitted Shared object library > /usr/lib/libhistory.so Uncommitted Symbolic link > > /usr/share/man/man3/readline.3 Uncommitted manpage > > /usr/share/info/readline.info Uncommitted Info document > /usr/share/info/rluserman.info Uncommitted Info document > /usr/share/info/history.info Uncommitted Info document > > /usr/include/readline Uncommitted Directory > /usr/include/readline/chardefs.h Uncommitted Header file > /usr/include/readline/history.h Uncommitted Header file > /usr/include/readline/keymaps.h Uncommitted Header file > /usr/include/readline/readline.h Uncommitted Header file > /usr/include/readline/rlconf.h Uncommitted Header file > /usr/include/readline/rlstdc.h Uncommitted Header file > /usr/include/readline/rltypedefs.h Uncommitted Header file > /usr/include/readline/tilde.h Uncommitted Header file > > /usr/demo/readline/Inputrc Uncommitted Example init file > So, somewhere in the above should be the actual readline and history interfaces. Maybe that's implied by the manpage entry, the info files, or the headers. No matter... Where ever these are, I tend to think that we need to make these Committed. Uncommitted may work for utilities and complex systems, but it doesn't tend to work for simple libraries. Too many dependencies are built too fast to manage as Uncommitted. Might as well bite the bullet and commit. Is there a reason we are unwilling to commit to these interfaces? My **guess** is that GNU treats these with respect, because there are many users. Nit: I'd just leave the demo out of the table. Its not an interface and obviously so. Nit: Do we need a vestigial man pages for rluserman and history, just to record the commitment level and point to the info pages, or is the readline man page sufficient? - jek3 From sacadmin Wed Mar 28 13:51:45 2007 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l2SKpjwe008595 for ; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 13:51:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l2SKpj0s024846 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:psarc@sun.com>; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 13:51:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JFM0031PSM68Y00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for psarc@sun.com (ORCPT psarc@sun.com); Wed, 28 Mar 2007 13:51:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sfbaymail1sca.SFBay.Sun.COM ([129.145.154.35]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JFM00EESSM4WN60@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for psarc@sun.com (ORCPT psarc@sun.com); Wed, 28 Mar 2007 13:51:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [129.146.108.211] (almas.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.108.211]) by sfbaymail1sca.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l2SKpcWj029907; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 13:51:38 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 13:51:38 -0700 From: Alan Coopersmith Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/188 - GNU readline In-reply-to: <1175107603.14534.57.camel@sr1-umpk-31> To: John.Fischer@sun.com Cc: psarc@sun.com, Dermot McCluskey Message-id: <460AD55A.2040005@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1175107603.14534.57.camel@sr1-umpk-31> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0pre (X11/20070214) Status: RO Content-Length: 642 Is there any reason this case is closed other than the obvious failure of sac_nextcase to offer open as an option? -alan- John Fischer wrote: > PSARC, > > I am sponsoring this project for Dermot McCluskey of the JDS > group in Dublin Ireland. The case directory contains this > proposal and supporting readline HTML documentation from the > community website. I have set the timer for Wednesday April > 4th, 2007. > > This project is proposing to integrate the readline libraries > into the Solaris WOS in a Patch release of Solaris. It will > be following the /usr/gnu recommendation per PSARC/2007/047. > > Thanks, > > John > > From sacadmin Wed Mar 28 14:09:15 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l2SL9E37009524 for ; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 14:09:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l2SL93Zb011522 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:psarc@sun.com>; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 05:09:13 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JFM0050FTFB0A00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for psarc@sun.com (ORCPT psarc@sun.com); Wed, 28 Mar 2007 14:09:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.98.31]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JFM00EQDTFAWN70@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for psarc@sun.com (ORCPT psarc@sun.com); Wed, 28 Mar 2007 14:09:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fe-amer-10.sun.com ([192.18.108.184]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l2SL9AC1025791 for ; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 21:09:10 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.mail-amer.sun.com by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JFM00701T9WJM00@mail-amer.sun.com> (original mail from John.Fischer@Sun.COM) for psarc@sun.com (ORCPT psarc@sun.com); Wed, 28 Mar 2007 15:09:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from 129.145.154.81 ([129.145.154.81]) by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JFM008ZWTF9M2H5@mail-amer.sun.com> for psarc@sun.com (ORCPT psarc@sun.com); Wed, 28 Mar 2007 15:09:10 -0600 (MDT) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 14:09:09 -0700 From: John Fischer Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/188 - GNU readline In-reply-to: <460AD55A.2040005@sun.com> Sender: John.Fischer@sun.com To: Alan Coopersmith Cc: John Fischer , psarc@sun.com, Dermot McCluskey Reply-to: John.Fischer@sun.com Message-id: <1175116149.14534.80.camel@sr1-umpk-31> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.6.335 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1175107603.14534.57.camel@sr1-umpk-31> <460AD55A.2040005@sun.com> Status: RO Content-Length: 790 Alan, I thought that I had opened it. John On Wed, 2007-03-28 at 13:51, Alan Coopersmith wrote: > Is there any reason this case is closed other than the obvious > failure of sac_nextcase to offer open as an option? > > -alan- > > John Fischer wrote: > > PSARC, > > > > I am sponsoring this project for Dermot McCluskey of the JDS > > group in Dublin Ireland. The case directory contains this > > proposal and supporting readline HTML documentation from the > > community website. I have set the timer for Wednesday April > > 4th, 2007. > > > > This project is proposing to integrate the readline libraries > > into the Solaris WOS in a Patch release of Solaris. It will > > be following the /usr/gnu recommendation per PSARC/2007/047. > > > > Thanks, > > > > John > > > > From sacadmin Wed Mar 28 14:15:07 2007 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l2SLF75k009896 for ; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 14:15:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l2SLF4Yb017140 for <@sunmail1brm.central.sun.com:psarc@sun.com>; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 14:15:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JFM00913TP44P00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for psarc@sun.com (ORCPT psarc@sun.com); Wed, 28 Mar 2007 15:15:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sfbaymail1sca.SFBay.Sun.COM ([129.145.154.35]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JFM00JU3TP3P560@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for psarc@sun.com (ORCPT psarc@sun.com); Wed, 28 Mar 2007 15:15:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [129.146.108.211] (almas.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.108.211]) by sfbaymail1sca.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l2SLF1Ku013394; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 14:15:02 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 14:15:01 -0700 From: Alan Coopersmith Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/188 - GNU readline In-reply-to: <1175116149.14534.80.camel@sr1-umpk-31> To: John.Fischer@sun.com Cc: PSARC@sun.com, Dermot McCluskey Message-id: <460ADAD5.8000600@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1175107603.14534.57.camel@sr1-umpk-31> <460AD55A.2040005@sun.com> <1175116149.14534.80.camel@sr1-umpk-31> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0pre (X11/20070214) Status: RO Content-Length: 1018 You have to send the mail to psarc-ext to make the discussion open. -alan- John Fischer wrote: > Alan, > > I thought that I had opened it. > > John > > On Wed, 2007-03-28 at 13:51, Alan Coopersmith wrote: >> Is there any reason this case is closed other than the obvious >> failure of sac_nextcase to offer open as an option? >> >> -alan- >> >> John Fischer wrote: >>> PSARC, >>> >>> I am sponsoring this project for Dermot McCluskey of the JDS >>> group in Dublin Ireland. The case directory contains this >>> proposal and supporting readline HTML documentation from the >>> community website. I have set the timer for Wednesday April >>> 4th, 2007. >>> >>> This project is proposing to integrate the readline libraries >>> into the Solaris WOS in a Patch release of Solaris. It will >>> be following the /usr/gnu recommendation per PSARC/2007/047. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> John >>> >>> > -- -Alan Coopersmith- alan.coopersmith@sun.com Sun Microsystems, Inc. - X Window System Engineering From sacadmin Thu Mar 29 00:05:12 2007 Received: from newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (newsunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.245]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l2T74u33027068 for ; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 00:05:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l2T74Xxg053643; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 01:04:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JFN00K01KZKND00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 01:04:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: from jurassic.eng.sun.com ([129.146.226.130]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JFN0089AKZKD9D0@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 01:04:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: from jurassic.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by jurassic.eng.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l2T74Ppv459773 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 29 Mar 2007 00:04:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from comay@localhost) by jurassic.eng.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/Submit) id l2T74Mpo459772; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 00:04:22 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 00:04:22 -0700 (PDT) From: David Comay Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/188 - GNU readline To: John.Fischer@Sun.COM, jek3@Sun.COM Cc: Dermot.McCluskey@Sun.COM, psarc@Sun.COM Message-id: <200703290704.l2T74Mpo459772@jurassic.eng.sun.com> Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 Status: RO Content-Length: 316 Joe, > Nit: I'd just leave the demo out of the table. Its not an interface and > obviously so. Are you suggesting not delivering the /usr/demo/readline subdirectory or just not documenting it as an interface? I proposed it to Dermot as a deliverable since I believe Debian provides the file as an example. dsc From sacadmin Thu Mar 29 00:21:42 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l2T7Lf8M027512 for ; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 00:21:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l2T7LVpA012467; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 15:21:35 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JFN00M03LRXFB00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 01:21:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: from jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com ([129.146.17.59]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JFN0083QLRXD8F0@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 01:21:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [129.150.12.53] (vpn-129-150-12-53.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.12.53]) by jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.0+Sun/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2T7LPo6791652; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 00:21:25 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 21:21:07 -1000 From: Joseph Kowalski Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/188 - GNU readline In-reply-to: <200703290704.l2T74Mpo459772@jurassic.eng.sun.com> To: David Comay Cc: John.Fischer@sun.com, Dermot.McCluskey@sun.com, psarc@sun.com Message-id: <460B68E3.3060606@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200703290704.l2T74Mpo459772@jurassic.eng.sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060925) Status: RO Content-Length: 548 David Comay wrote: > Joe, > > >> Nit: I'd just leave the demo out of the table. Its not an interface and >> obviously so. >> > > Are you suggesting not delivering the /usr/demo/readline subdirectory > or just not documenting it as an interface? I proposed it to Dermot as > a deliverable since I believe Debian provides the file as an example. > > dsc > Just an old ARC policy. All demos aren't interfaces for us to worry about. Treat them as Volatile, but don't even bother telling us. Deliver all the demos you want. - jek3 From sacadmin Thu Mar 29 10:53:13 2007 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l2THrCZi011827 for ; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 10:53:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l2THrCaF020172 for <@sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com:psarc@sun.com>; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 10:53:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JFO00C03F0O6Q00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for psarc@sun.com (ORCPT psarc@sun.com); Thu, 29 Mar 2007 10:53:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com ([129.156.42.6]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JFO000FIF0NT3F0@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for psarc@sun.com (ORCPT psarc@sun.com); Thu, 29 Mar 2007 10:53:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d1-emea-09.sun.com ([192.18.2.119]) by gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l2THrATR012417 for ; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 17:53:10 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-emea-09.sun.com by d1-emea-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JFO00K01F0EAZ00@d1-emea-09.sun.com> (original mail from Dermot.McCluskey@Sun.COM) for psarc@sun.com (ORCPT psarc@sun.com); Thu, 29 Mar 2007 18:53:10 +0100 (BST) Received: from [129.156.220.16] by d1-emea-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JFO00H1NF0M17L9@d1-emea-09.sun.com>; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 18:53:10 +0100 (BST) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 18:53:10 +0100 From: Dermot McCluskey Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/188 - GNU readline In-reply-to: <460ACD42.4070504@sun.com> Sender: Dermot.McCluskey@sun.com To: Joseph Kowalski Cc: John.Fischer@sun.com, psarc@sun.com Message-id: <460BFD06.7080604@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en-us, en X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1175107603.14534.57.camel@sr1-umpk-31> <460ACD42.4070504@sun.com> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; SunOS sun4u; en-US; rv:1.7) Gecko/20060120 Status: RO Content-Length: 814 Joseph Kowalski wrote On 03/28/07 21:17,: > > Where ever these are, I tend to think that we need to make these > Committed. Uncommitted may > work for utilities and complex systems, but it doesn't tend to work > for simple libraries. Too many > dependencies are built too fast to manage as Uncommitted. Might as > well bite the bullet and > commit. > > Is there a reason we are unwilling to commit to these interfaces? My > **guess** is that GNU > treats these with respect, because there are many users. Previously, I've been considering whether this should be Volatile or Uncommitted. Although readline has been stable over the years, I'm uncomfortable agreeing to anything higher than Uncommitted as it is maintained by an external community with whom we (Sun) are not directly involved. - Dermot From sacadmin Thu Mar 29 11:53:49 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l2TIrmBY013156 for ; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 11:53:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l2TIrWS9005723; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 19:53:45 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JFO00E09HTJTR00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 11:53:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com ([129.146.17.59]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JFO00CXNHTJK120@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 11:53:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [129.150.12.53] (vpn-129-150-12-53.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.12.53]) by jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.0+Sun/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2TIrgbh906553; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 11:53:42 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 08:53:23 -1000 From: Joseph Kowalski Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/188 - GNU readline In-reply-to: <460BFD06.7080604@Sun.COM> To: Dermot McCluskey Cc: John.Fischer@sun.com, psarc@sun.com Message-id: <460C0B23.5000305@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1175107603.14534.57.camel@sr1-umpk-31> <460ACD42.4070504@sun.com> <460BFD06.7080604@Sun.COM> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060925) Status: RO Content-Length: 1490 Dermot McCluskey wrote: > Joseph Kowalski wrote On 03/28/07 21:17,: > >> >> Where ever these are, I tend to think that we need to make these >> Committed. Uncommitted may >> work for utilities and complex systems, but it doesn't tend to work >> for simple libraries. Too many >> dependencies are built too fast to manage as Uncommitted. Might as >> well bite the bullet and >> commit. >> >> Is there a reason we are unwilling to commit to these interfaces? My >> **guess** is that GNU >> treats these with respect, because there are many users. > > > Previously, I've been considering whether this should be > Volatile or Uncommitted. Although readline has been stable > over the years, I'm uncomfortable agreeing to anything > higher than Uncommitted as it is maintained by an external > community with whom we (Sun) are not directly involved. > > > - Dermot The criteria is "we trust the community to the point we are willing to take on the responsibility of possibly forking in the face of incompatable change". It generally has nothing to do with participation (although that helps us "trust"). Leaving these less than committed, forces them out of the domain of enterprise class applications. If these are just for FOSS components where the consumers expect to do the "find a set of compatable packages" dance, then less than committed is appropriate. I might be the only one with this view. Other members? (Hint: I'd derail if this was lowered to Volatile) - jek3 From sacadmin Mon Apr 2 16:02:10 2007 Received: from newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (newsunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.245]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l32N2ACJ029854 for ; Mon, 2 Apr 2007 16:02:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l32N1eJq061570; Mon, 2 Apr 2007 17:01:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JFW00I017YRNU00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Mon, 02 Apr 2007 16:01:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eastmail2bur.East.Sun.COM ([129.148.13.40]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JFW001J37YR3AB0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Mon, 02 Apr 2007 16:01:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thunk.east.sun.com (thunk.East.Sun.COM [129.148.174.66]) by eastmail2bur.East.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l32N1b1s007618; Mon, 02 Apr 2007 19:01:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [IPv6:::1] (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by thunk.east.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l32N1bZr028586; Mon, 02 Apr 2007 19:01:37 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2007 19:01:36 -0400 From: Bill Sommerfeld Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/188 - GNU readline In-reply-to: <460C0B23.5000305@sun.com> To: Joseph Kowalski Cc: Dermot McCluskey , John.Fischer@sun.com, psarc@sun.com Message-id: <1175554896.26734.115.camel@thunk> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.8.1.1 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1175107603.14534.57.camel@sr1-umpk-31> <460ACD42.4070504@sun.com> <460BFD06.7080604@Sun.COM> <460C0B23.5000305@sun.com> Status: RO Content-Length: 1057 [This is a resend. The original didn't make it into the archive..] On Thu, 2007-03-29 at 08:53 -1000, Joseph Kowalski wrote: > Leaving these less than committed, forces them out of the domain of > enterprise class applications. If these are just for FOSS components > where the consumers expect to do the "find a set of compatable packages" > dance, then less than committed is appropriate. My understanding is that the GNU implementation of readline is published under the GPL rather than the LGPL. Under a common interpretation of the GPL this requires any published application invoking it to itself be licensed under a GPL-compatible license. There is at least one non-GNU implementations of the readline API ("libedit", which is maintained as part of NetBSD) which is advertised as source-compatible and is released under a BSD license. > I might be the only one with this view. Other members? Do we have any Public library APIs which are GPL'ed? (the GNOME libraries are LGPL, IIRC). This may be treading into new ground. - Bill From sacadmin Mon Apr 2 16:07:22 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l32N7Khc029897 for ; Mon, 2 Apr 2007 16:07:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l32InLig006800; Tue, 3 Apr 2007 02:49:22 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JFV00303WA8KN00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Mon, 02 Apr 2007 12:49:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com ([129.146.17.59]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JFV00JJJWA7RF40@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Mon, 02 Apr 2007 12:49:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [129.150.12.53] (vpn-129-150-12-53.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.12.53]) by jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.0+Sun/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l32InBae843749; Mon, 02 Apr 2007 11:49:18 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2007 08:48:43 -1000 From: Joseph Kowalski Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/188 - GNU readline In-reply-to: <46113B1E.1040103@Sun.COM> To: Dermot McCluskey Cc: John.Fischer@sun.com, psarc@sun.com Message-id: <4611500B.1090605@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1175107603.14534.57.camel@sr1-umpk-31> <460ACD42.4070504@sun.com> <460BFD06.7080604@Sun.COM> <460C0B23.5000305@sun.com> <46113B1E.1040103@Sun.COM> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060925) Status: RO Content-Length: 1563 Dermot McCluskey wrote: > Resending - first attempt went missing: > > > Joseph Kowalski wrote On 03/29/07 19:53,: > >> The criteria is "we trust the community to the point we are willing >> to take on the responsibility of possibly forking in the face of >> incompatable change". It generally has nothing to do with >> participation (although that helps us "trust"). >> >> Leaving these less than committed, forces them out of the domain of >> enterprise class applications. If these are just for FOSS components >> where the consumers expect to do the "find a set of compatable >> packages" dance, then less than committed is appropriate. > > > The viral nature of the GPL means that readline will certainly > only be used by other FOSS components. These can also > be enterprise class applications (the initial consumer for > readline, Xen, certainly aspires to be), but I think this > restricts the usage model sufficiently that Committed is > not required. > > - Dermot I hadn't even thought of the GPL issue when I posted this. Bill brought that up. I know the rules keep changing, but I still think we aren't allowed to bring in traditional gpl components. Do we need legal review? Did this pass the legal "quick analysis" form (whatever they call it, assuming it still exists)? If we do bring this in, how do we keep from tainting ourselves? How to we make sure that if our customers taint themselves, they do it with full knowledge and consent? If as Bill suggests, there is a BSD equivalent, we are far better going that way. - jek3 From sacadmin Mon Apr 2 16:14:57 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l32NEucT000206 for ; Mon, 2 Apr 2007 16:14:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l32HJQaS010222 for <@sunmail1brm.central.sun.com:psarc@sun.com>; Tue, 3 Apr 2007 01:19:31 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JFV00H0BS4HQW00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for psarc@sun.com (ORCPT psarc@sun.com); Mon, 02 Apr 2007 11:19:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: from gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com ([129.156.42.6]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JFV004AAS4GFWD0@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for psarc@sun.com (ORCPT psarc@sun.com); Mon, 02 Apr 2007 11:19:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: from d1-emea-09.sun.com ([192.18.2.119]) by gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l32HJR7n026548 for ; Mon, 02 Apr 2007 17:19:27 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-emea-09.sun.com by d1-emea-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JFV00401S46JM00@d1-emea-09.sun.com> (original mail from Dermot.McCluskey@Sun.COM) for psarc@sun.com (ORCPT psarc@sun.com); Mon, 02 Apr 2007 18:19:27 +0100 (BST) Received: from [129.156.220.16] by d1-emea-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JFV00HYHS4E0VME@d1-emea-09.sun.com>; Mon, 02 Apr 2007 18:19:26 +0100 (BST) Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2007 18:19:26 +0100 From: Dermot McCluskey Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/188 - GNU readline In-reply-to: <460C0B23.5000305@sun.com> Sender: Dermot.McCluskey@sun.com To: Joseph Kowalski Cc: John.Fischer@sun.com, psarc@sun.com Message-id: <46113B1E.1040103@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en-us, en X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1175107603.14534.57.camel@sr1-umpk-31> <460ACD42.4070504@sun.com> <460BFD06.7080604@Sun.COM> <460C0B23.5000305@sun.com> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; SunOS sun4u; en-US; rv:1.7) Gecko/20060120 Status: RO Content-Length: 926 Resending - first attempt went missing: Joseph Kowalski wrote On 03/29/07 19:53,: > The criteria is "we trust the community to the point we are willing to > take on the responsibility of possibly forking in the face of > incompatable change". It generally has nothing to do with > participation (although that helps us "trust"). > > Leaving these less than committed, forces them out of the domain of > enterprise class applications. If these are just for FOSS components > where the consumers expect to do the "find a set of compatable > packages" dance, then less than committed is appropriate. The viral nature of the GPL means that readline will certainly only be used by other FOSS components. These can also be enterprise class applications (the initial consumer for readline, Xen, certainly aspires to be), but I think this restricts the usage model sufficiently that Committed is not required. - Dermot From sacadmin Tue Apr 3 04:22:15 2007 Received: from newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (newsunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.245]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l33BMFEx011257 for ; Tue, 3 Apr 2007 04:22:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l33BLinL036149 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:psarc@sun.com>; Tue, 3 Apr 2007 05:21:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JFX0050D688VY00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for psarc@sun.com (ORCPT psarc@sun.com); Tue, 03 Apr 2007 04:21:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com ([129.156.42.6]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JFX009J76846HA0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for psarc@sun.com (ORCPT psarc@sun.com); Tue, 03 Apr 2007 04:21:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d1-emea-09.sun.com ([192.18.2.119]) by gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l33BLeS5027773 for ; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 11:21:40 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-emea-09.sun.com by d1-emea-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JFX0090165X3500@d1-emea-09.sun.com> (original mail from Dermot.McCluskey@Sun.COM) for psarc@sun.com (ORCPT psarc@sun.com); Tue, 03 Apr 2007 12:21:40 +0100 (BST) Received: from [129.156.220.16] by d1-emea-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JFX00H3Q6830YUB@d1-emea-09.sun.com>; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 12:21:39 +0100 (BST) Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2007 12:21:39 +0100 From: Dermot McCluskey Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/188 - GNU readline In-reply-to: <4611500B.1090605@sun.com> Sender: Dermot.McCluskey@sun.com To: Joseph Kowalski Cc: John.Fischer@sun.com, psarc@sun.com Message-id: <461238C3.7000209@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en-us, en X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1175107603.14534.57.camel@sr1-umpk-31> <460ACD42.4070504@sun.com> <460BFD06.7080604@Sun.COM> <460C0B23.5000305@sun.com> <46113B1E.1040103@Sun.COM> <4611500B.1090605@sun.com> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; SunOS sun4u; en-US; rv:1.7) Gecko/20060120 Status: RO Content-Length: 1353 Joseph Kowalski wrote On 04/02/07 19:48,: > I hadn't even thought of the GPL issue when I posted this. Bill > brought that up. I deliberately avoided mentioning licensing matters, as I didn't think they would concen ARC. > I know the rules keep changing, but I still think we aren't allowed to > bring in > traditional gpl components. Do we need legal review? Did this pass > the legal > "quick analysis" form (whatever they call it, assuming it still exists)? > > If we do bring this in, how do we keep from tainting ourselves? > > How to we make sure that if our customers taint themselves, they do it > with > full knowledge and consent? Stephen Hahn and Marilyn Shoemaker are working with Legal on new guidelinves for GPL/LGPL integration. Amongst other things, these guidelines will put the onus on developers to ensure they are aware of the licenses of code they are using/linking to and the implications of those licenses. > If as Bill suggests, there is a BSD equivalent, we are far better > going that way. libedit (BSD) says it *aims* for 100% readline API compatibility, but the information available is very scarce and I've read that it is not a drop-in replacement. readline seems to have a more mature and better maintained codebase. If Bill or other members can shed more light on libedit, I'd be grateful. - Dermot From sacadmin Tue Apr 3 05:00:19 2007 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l33C0J4p011828 for ; Tue, 3 Apr 2007 05:00:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l33Bxi8U010024; Tue, 3 Apr 2007 04:59:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JFX00H3X7ZJ3F00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 05:59:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com ([129.148.174.143]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JFX00E5Q7ZG6920@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 05:59:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.0+Sun/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l33BxdLI028947; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 07:59:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from carlsonj@localhost) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.0+Sun/8.14.0/Submit) id l33BxdPL028942; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 07:59:39 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2007 07:59:24 -0400 From: James Carlson Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/188 - GNU readline In-reply-to: <461238C3.7000209@Sun.COM> To: Dermot McCluskey Cc: Joseph Kowalski , John.Fischer@sun.com, psarc@sun.com Message-id: <17938.16796.735598.122663@gargle.gargle.HOWL> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: VM 7.01 under Emacs 21.3.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1175107603.14534.57.camel@sr1-umpk-31> <460ACD42.4070504@sun.com> <460BFD06.7080604@Sun.COM> <460C0B23.5000305@sun.com> <46113B1E.1040103@Sun.COM> <4611500B.1090605@sun.com> <461238C3.7000209@Sun.COM> Status: RO Content-Length: 1363 Dermot McCluskey writes: > Joseph Kowalski wrote On 04/02/07 19:48,: > > > I hadn't even thought of the GPL issue when I posted this. Bill > > brought that up. > > > I deliberately avoided mentioning licensing matters, as I didn't > think they would concen ARC. To the extent that they're a constraint on the design of future projects, I think those issues are actually architectural. (It's a shame it has to be that way ...) > > How to we make sure that if our customers taint themselves, they do it > > with > > full knowledge and consent? > > > Stephen Hahn and Marilyn Shoemaker are working with Legal on > new guidelinves for GPL/LGPL integration. Amongst other things, > these guidelines will put the onus on developers to ensure they are > aware of the licenses of code they are using/linking to and the > implications of those licenses. What will our man page say? Just "this library is licensed under GPLv2?" As a process matter, I don't think we've ever had a "public and stable but you [Sun internal developer] still can't use it" sort of interface before. Do we need a new adjective in the taxonomy ("Viral"?)? -- James Carlson, Solaris Networking Sun Microsystems / 1 Network Drive 71.232W Vox +1 781 442 2084 MS UBUR02-212 / Burlington MA 01803-2757 42.496N Fax +1 781 442 1677 From sacadmin Tue Apr 3 07:27:20 2007 Received: from newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (newsunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.245]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l33ERKod013296 for ; Tue, 3 Apr 2007 07:27:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l33EQlO5015490; Tue, 3 Apr 2007 08:26:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JFX00K1JESO5V00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 07:26:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eastmail1bur.East.Sun.COM ([129.148.9.49]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JFX00HG3ESNLC20@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 07:26:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thunk.east.sun.com (thunk.East.Sun.COM [129.148.174.66]) by eastmail1bur.East.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l33EQi8F005940; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 10:26:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [IPv6:::1] (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by thunk.east.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l33EEHuw001689; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 10:14:17 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2007 10:14:16 -0400 From: Bill Sommerfeld Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/188 - GNU readline In-reply-to: <461238C3.7000209@Sun.COM> To: Dermot McCluskey Cc: Joseph Kowalski , John.Fischer@sun.com, psarc@sun.com Message-id: <1175609656.1365.33.camel@thunk> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.8.1.1 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1175107603.14534.57.camel@sr1-umpk-31> <460ACD42.4070504@sun.com> <460BFD06.7080604@Sun.COM> <460C0B23.5000305@sun.com> <46113B1E.1040103@Sun.COM> <4611500B.1090605@sun.com> <461238C3.7000209@Sun.COM> Status: RO Content-Length: 2132 On Tue, 2007-04-03 at 12:21 +0100, Dermot McCluskey wrote: > I deliberately avoided mentioning licensing matters, as I didn't > think they would concen ARC. In this case, the license affects who can use the interface, and that's architectural. > Stephen Hahn and Marilyn Shoemaker are working with Legal on > new guidelinves for GPL/LGPL integration. Amongst other things, > these guidelines will put the onus on developers to ensure they are > aware of the licenses of code they are using/linking to and the > implications of those licenses. I think we will need to take a look at the architectural implications of that work. > libedit (BSD) says it *aims* for 100% readline API compatibility, but > the information available is very scarce and I've read that it is not a > drop-in replacement. That may be because the primary copy of libedit is found in the NetBSD sources rather than as an independent package. My understanding is that it's intended to be source compatible but not ABI compatible and is maintained to be "good enough" for GDB. > readline seems to have a more mature and better maintained codebase. But that's irrelevant if the FSF threatens legal action if you try to use it from code licensed in a way they disfavor. We are not qualified to evaluate whether these threats are genuine or whether they are supported by the actual text of the GPL. I believe the ARC should treat such APIs like any other case where the maintainer has made statements discouraging use (for instance "don't call undocumented functions; they're not part of the public API of this library") and consider readline as a Project Private or Consolidation Private interface. If this creates problems we'll need to revise the taxonomy. ---- A couple additional questions for the submitter: - What's the relationship between this case and /usr/sfw/include/mysql/readline.h, packaged as part of SUNWsfwhea ? - Would it be possible to statically link GNU readline into GPL'ed code so that we do not need to distribute a readline library or header file which might be picked up as an available interface? - Bill From sacadmin Tue Apr 3 07:37:28 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l33EbRcv013398 for ; Tue, 3 Apr 2007 07:37:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l33EasCA025081; Tue, 3 Apr 2007 15:36:54 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JFX00K01F9IU900@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 07:36:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com ([129.156.42.6]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JFX00HAVF9CLF20@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 07:36:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d1-emea-10.sun.com ([192.18.2.120]) by gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l33EamjD026693; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 14:36:48 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-emea-10.sun.com by d1-emea-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JFX00501F5ZM000@d1-emea-10.sun.com> (original mail from Paul.Jakma@Sun.COM); Tue, 03 Apr 2007 15:36:48 +0100 (BST) Received: from dhcp-239-0.jakma.org (hibernia.jakma.org [212.17.55.49]) by d1-emea-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JFX00AQ4F9AGH10@d1-emea-10.sun.com>; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 15:36:48 +0100 (BST) Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2007 15:36:44 +0100 (IST) From: Paul Jakma Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/188 - GNU readline In-reply-to: <1175609656.1365.33.camel@thunk> Sender: Paul.Jakma@Sun.COM To: Bill Sommerfeld Cc: Dermot McCluskey , Joseph Kowalski , John.Fischer@Sun.COM, psarc@Sun.COM Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1175107603.14534.57.camel@sr1-umpk-31> <460ACD42.4070504@sun.com> <460BFD06.7080604@Sun.COM> <460C0B23.5000305@sun.com> <46113B1E.1040103@Sun.COM> <4611500B.1090605@sun.com> <461238C3.7000209@Sun.COM> <1175609656.1365.33.camel@thunk> Status: RO Content-Length: 445 On Tue, 3 Apr 2007, Bill Sommerfeld wrote: > library") and consider readline as a Project Private or Consolidation > Private interface. If this creates problems we'll need to revise the > taxonomy. What implications would that have for other projects in SFW making use of readline, private to ON (or a project in ON)? regards, -- Paul Jakma, Solaris Networking http://opensolaris.org/os/project/quagga tel: EMEA x19190 / +353 1 819 9190 From sacadmin Tue Apr 3 07:40:37 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l33Eea21013411 for ; Tue, 3 Apr 2007 07:40:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l33EddSj026140; Tue, 3 Apr 2007 15:40:03 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JFX0090HFEPIE00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 08:40:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from dm-holland-01.uk.sun.com ([129.156.101.192]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JFX007N5FEO1E10@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 08:40:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from vaticaan.holland.sun.com (vaticaan.Holland.Sun.COM [129.159.213.1]) by dm-holland-01.uk.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l33EdxWf001558; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 15:39:59 +0100 (BST) Received: from holland (room101 [129.159.248.23]) by vaticaan.holland.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l33Edwcv016759; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 16:39:58 +0200 (MEST) Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2007 16:39:38 +0200 From: Casper.Dik@sun.com Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/188 - GNU readline In-reply-to: Sender: casper@holland.sun.com To: Paul Jakma Cc: Bill Sommerfeld , Dermot McCluskey , Joseph Kowalski , John.Fischer@sun.com, psarc@sun.com Message-id: <200704031439.l33Edwcv016759@vaticaan.holland.sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1175107603.14534.57.camel@sr1-umpk-31> <460ACD42.4070504@sun.com> <460BFD06.7080604@Sun.COM> <460C0B23.5000305@sun.com> <46113B1E.1040103@Sun.COM> <4611500B.1090605@sun.com> <461238C3.7000209@Sun.COM> <1175609656.1365.33.camel@thunk> Status: RO Content-Length: 470 >On Tue, 3 Apr 2007, Bill Sommerfeld wrote: > >> library") and consider readline as a Project Private or Consolidation >> Private interface. If this creates problems we'll need to revise the >> taxonomy. > >What implications would that have for other projects in SFW making use >of readline, private to ON (or a project in ON)? readline cannot be used by any project not GPL'ed. For SFW projects that is fine but for code in ON under the CDDL it is not. Casper From sacadmin Tue Apr 3 07:42:35 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l33EgYxZ013565 for ; Tue, 3 Apr 2007 07:42:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l33Efuos027303; Tue, 3 Apr 2007 15:42:02 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JFX00K0JFHZHU00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 07:41:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com ([129.156.42.5]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JFX00HI5FHYVY30@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 07:41:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d1-emea-09.sun.com (d1-emea-09.sun.com [192.18.2.119]) by gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l33EfvcM026807; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 14:41:57 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-emea-09.sun.com by d1-emea-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JFX00E01FE83Q00@d1-emea-09.sun.com> (original mail from Paul.Jakma@Sun.COM); Tue, 03 Apr 2007 15:41:57 +0100 (BST) Received: from dhcp-239-0.jakma.org (hibernia.jakma.org [212.17.55.49]) by d1-emea-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JFX002NJFHVCW10@d1-emea-09.sun.com>; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 15:41:57 +0100 (BST) Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2007 15:41:53 +0100 (IST) From: Paul Jakma Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/188 - GNU readline In-reply-to: <200704031439.l33Edwcv016759@vaticaan.holland.sun.com> Sender: Paul.Jakma@sun.com To: Casper.Dik@sun.com Cc: Bill Sommerfeld , Dermot McCluskey , Joseph Kowalski , John.Fischer@sun.com, psarc@sun.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1175107603.14534.57.camel@sr1-umpk-31> <460ACD42.4070504@sun.com> <460BFD06.7080604@Sun.COM> <460C0B23.5000305@sun.com> <46113B1E.1040103@Sun.COM> <4611500B.1090605@sun.com> <461238C3.7000209@Sun.COM> <1175609656.1365.33.camel@thunk> <200704031439.l33Edwcv016759@vaticaan.holland.sun.com> Status: RO Content-Length: 489 On Tue, 3 Apr 2007, Casper.Dik@Sun.COM wrote: > readline cannot be used by any project not GPL'ed. For SFW projects > that is fine but for code in ON under the CDDL it is not. Right. I was wondering though, for a GPL codebase in SFW, would it be allowed to make use of readline in ON, if readline were commited to ON as either project or consolidation private? regards, -- Paul Jakma, Solaris Networking http://opensolaris.org/os/project/quagga tel: EMEA x19190 / +353 1 819 9190 From sacadmin Tue Apr 3 07:44:37 2007 Received: from newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (newsunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.245]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l33Eib4B013580 for ; Tue, 3 Apr 2007 07:44:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l33Ei35q020425; Tue, 3 Apr 2007 08:44:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JFX00K03FLHJK00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 07:44:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.98.43]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JFX00HU9FLGW140@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 07:44:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fe-amer-09.sun.com ([192.18.108.183]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l33Ei4xh028718; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 14:44:04 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.mail-amer.sun.com by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JFX00B01FH2W300@mail-amer.sun.com> (original mail from Mark.Johnson@Sun.COM); Tue, 03 Apr 2007 08:44:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mrj.local ([192.9.61.47]) by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JFX004H4FL914X1@mail-amer.sun.com>; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 08:44:02 -0600 (MDT) Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2007 10:44:17 -0400 From: Mark Johnson Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/188 - GNU readline In-reply-to: <1175609656.1365.33.camel@thunk> Sender: Mark.Johnson@sun.com To: Bill Sommerfeld Cc: Dermot McCluskey , Joseph Kowalski , John.Fischer@sun.com, psarc@sun.com Message-id: <46126841.4010409@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1175107603.14534.57.camel@sr1-umpk-31> <460ACD42.4070504@sun.com> <460BFD06.7080604@Sun.COM> <460C0B23.5000305@sun.com> <46113B1E.1040103@Sun.COM> <4611500B.1090605@sun.com> <461238C3.7000209@Sun.COM> <1175609656.1365.33.camel@thunk> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0b2 (Macintosh/20070116) Status: RO Content-Length: 2525 Bill Sommerfeld wrote: > On Tue, 2007-04-03 at 12:21 +0100, Dermot McCluskey wrote: >> I deliberately avoided mentioning licensing matters, as I didn't >> think they would concen ARC. > > In this case, the license affects who can use the interface, and that's > architectural. > >> Stephen Hahn and Marilyn Shoemaker are working with Legal on >> new guidelinves for GPL/LGPL integration. Amongst other things, >> these guidelines will put the onus on developers to ensure they are >> aware of the licenses of code they are using/linking to and the >> implications of those licenses. > > I think we will need to take a look at the architectural implications of > that work. > >> libedit (BSD) says it *aims* for 100% readline API compatibility, but >> the information available is very scarce and I've read that it is not a >> drop-in replacement. > > That may be because the primary copy of libedit is found in the NetBSD > sources rather than as an independent package. My understanding is that > it's intended to be source compatible but not ABI compatible and is > maintained to be "good enough" for GDB. > >> readline seems to have a more mature and better maintained codebase. > > But that's irrelevant if the FSF threatens legal action if you try to > use it from code licensed in a way they disfavor. > > We are not qualified to evaluate whether these threats are genuine or > whether they are supported by the actual text of the GPL. > > I believe the ARC should treat such APIs like any other case where the > maintainer has made statements discouraging use (for instance "don't > call undocumented functions; they're not part of the public API of this > library") and consider readline as a Project Private or Consolidation > Private interface. If this creates problems we'll need to revise the > taxonomy. > > ---- > > A couple additional questions for the submitter: > > - What's the relationship between this case > and /usr/sfw/include/mysql/readline.h, packaged as part of SUNWsfwhea ? > > - Would it be possible to statically link GNU readline into GPL'ed code > so that we do not need to distribute a readline library or header file > which might be picked up as an available interface? That's what has been done in the past to avoid this. IMO, it's time we addressed the issue instead of avoiding it. We currently ship readline in the companion CD. Extending the taxonomy seem appropriate. MRJ -- Mark Johnson Sun Microsystems, Inc. (781) 442-0869 From sacadmin Tue Apr 3 08:30:09 2007 Received: from newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (newsunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.245]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l33FU9Sn014725 for ; Tue, 3 Apr 2007 08:30:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l33FTaCx033211; Tue, 3 Apr 2007 09:29:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JFX00M1BHPCEA00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 08:29:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eastmail2bur.East.Sun.COM ([129.148.13.40]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JFX00H7JHPBVZ70@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 08:29:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thunk.east.sun.com (thunk.East.Sun.COM [129.148.174.66]) by eastmail2bur.East.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l33FTWPV021741; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 11:29:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [IPv6:::1] (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by thunk.east.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l33FTW7Y001377; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 11:29:32 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2007 10:14:16 -0400 From: Bill Sommerfeld Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/188 - GNU readline In-reply-to: <461238C3.7000209@Sun.COM> To: Dermot McCluskey Cc: Joseph Kowalski , John.Fischer@sun.com, psarc@sun.com Message-id: <1175609656.1365.33.camel@thunk> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.8.1.1 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1175107603.14534.57.camel@sr1-umpk-31> <460ACD42.4070504@sun.com> <460BFD06.7080604@Sun.COM> <460C0B23.5000305@sun.com> <46113B1E.1040103@Sun.COM> <4611500B.1090605@sun.com> <461238C3.7000209@Sun.COM> Status: RO Content-Length: 2132 On Tue, 2007-04-03 at 12:21 +0100, Dermot McCluskey wrote: > I deliberately avoided mentioning licensing matters, as I didn't > think they would concen ARC. In this case, the license affects who can use the interface, and that's architectural. > Stephen Hahn and Marilyn Shoemaker are working with Legal on > new guidelinves for GPL/LGPL integration. Amongst other things, > these guidelines will put the onus on developers to ensure they are > aware of the licenses of code they are using/linking to and the > implications of those licenses. I think we will need to take a look at the architectural implications of that work. > libedit (BSD) says it *aims* for 100% readline API compatibility, but > the information available is very scarce and I've read that it is not a > drop-in replacement. That may be because the primary copy of libedit is found in the NetBSD sources rather than as an independent package. My understanding is that it's intended to be source compatible but not ABI compatible and is maintained to be "good enough" for GDB. > readline seems to have a more mature and better maintained codebase. But that's irrelevant if the FSF threatens legal action if you try to use it from code licensed in a way they disfavor. We are not qualified to evaluate whether these threats are genuine or whether they are supported by the actual text of the GPL. I believe the ARC should treat such APIs like any other case where the maintainer has made statements discouraging use (for instance "don't call undocumented functions; they're not part of the public API of this library") and consider readline as a Project Private or Consolidation Private interface. If this creates problems we'll need to revise the taxonomy. ---- A couple additional questions for the submitter: - What's the relationship between this case and /usr/sfw/include/mysql/readline.h, packaged as part of SUNWsfwhea ? - Would it be possible to statically link GNU readline into GPL'ed code so that we do not need to distribute a readline library or header file which might be picked up as an available interface? - Bill From sacadmin Tue Apr 3 09:05:08 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l33G57ua015478 for ; Tue, 3 Apr 2007 09:05:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l33G4QSD015252; Wed, 4 Apr 2007 00:04:32 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JFX00003JBJQO00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 09:04:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail3mpk.sfbay.Sun.COM ([129.146.11.26]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JFX00H48JBIVY90@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 09:04:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zion.eng.sun.com (zion.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.17.75]) by engmail3mpk.sfbay.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l33G4Swk012367; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 09:04:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [129.146.228.109] (cyber [129.146.228.109]) by zion.eng.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7) with ESMTP id l33G4RXm006006; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 09:04:27 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2007 09:03:29 -0700 From: Bart Smaalders Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/188 - GNU readline In-reply-to: To: Paul Jakma Cc: Casper.Dik@sun.com, Bill Sommerfeld , Dermot McCluskey , Joseph Kowalski , John.Fischer@sun.com, psarc@sun.com Message-id: <46127AD1.30507@Sun.COM> Organization: Sun Microsystems MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1175107603.14534.57.camel@sr1-umpk-31> <460ACD42.4070504@sun.com> <460BFD06.7080604@Sun.COM> <460C0B23.5000305@sun.com> <46113B1E.1040103@Sun.COM> <4611500B.1090605@sun.com> <461238C3.7000209@Sun.COM> <1175609656.1365.33.camel@thunk> <200704031439.l33Edwcv016759@vaticaan.holland.sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0b2 (X11/20070227) Status: RO Content-Length: 635 Paul Jakma wrote: > On Tue, 3 Apr 2007, Casper.Dik@Sun.COM wrote: > >> readline cannot be used by any project not GPL'ed. For SFW projects >> that is fine but for code in ON under the CDDL it is not. > > Right. > > I was wondering though, for a GPL codebase in SFW, would it be allowed > to make use of readline in ON, if readline were commited to ON as either > project or consolidation private? > > regards, Well, it would certainly make sense to do so. Filing contracts for every use isn't adding value, though. - Bart -- Bart Smaalders Solaris Kernel Performance barts@cyber.eng.sun.com http://blogs.sun.com/barts From sacadmin Tue Apr 3 09:12:57 2007 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l33GCv4G015536 for ; Tue, 3 Apr 2007 09:12:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l33GCPR4004326; Tue, 3 Apr 2007 09:12:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JFX0000NJOOZ500@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 09:12:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eastmail1bur.East.Sun.COM ([129.148.9.49]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JFX00HJYJOMVY90@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 09:12:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thunk.east.sun.com (thunk.East.Sun.COM [129.148.174.66]) by eastmail1bur.East.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l33GCJAv029317; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 12:12:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [IPv6:::1] (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by thunk.east.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l33GCJCK001831; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 12:12:19 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2007 12:12:18 -0400 From: Bill Sommerfeld Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/188 - GNU readline In-reply-to: To: Paul Jakma Cc: Casper.Dik@sun.com, Dermot McCluskey , Joseph Kowalski , John.Fischer@sun.com, psarc@sun.com Message-id: <1175616738.1001.7.camel@thunk> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.8.1.1 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1175107603.14534.57.camel@sr1-umpk-31> <460ACD42.4070504@sun.com> <460BFD06.7080604@Sun.COM> <460C0B23.5000305@sun.com> <46113B1E.1040103@Sun.COM> <4611500B.1090605@sun.com> <461238C3.7000209@Sun.COM> <1175609656.1365.33.camel@thunk> <200704031439.l33Edwcv016759@vaticaan.holland.sun.com> Status: RO Content-Length: 375 On Tue, 2007-04-03 at 15:41 +0100, Paul Jakma wrote: > I was wondering though, for a GPL codebase in SFW, would it be allowed > to make use of readline in ON, if readline were commited to ON as either > project or consolidation private? it would make much more sense to put readline into SFW or a hypothetical "GNU" consolidation as Consolidation Private. - Bill From sacadmin Tue Apr 3 09:28:04 2007 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l33GS4TW015896 for ; Tue, 3 Apr 2007 09:28:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l33GRR4C008312; Tue, 3 Apr 2007 09:27:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JFX00J3DKDVMU00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 10:27:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from nwk-ea-fw-1.sun.com ([10.4.134.6]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JFX007G0KDU1480@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 10:27:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from d1-sfbay-09.sun.com ([192.18.39.119]) by nwk-ea-fw-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l33GRUu7015676; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 09:27:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-sfbay-09.sun.com by d1-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JFX00K01K05MH00@d1-sfbay-09.sun.com> (original mail from Lawrence.Lee@Sun.COM); Tue, 03 Apr 2007 09:27:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.9.61.208] by d1-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JFX0072DKDJ26UR@d1-sfbay-09.sun.com>; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 09:27:20 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2007 09:28:18 -0700 From: Larry Lee Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/188 - GNU readline In-reply-to: <1175616738.1001.7.camel@thunk> Sender: Lawrence.Lee@sun.com To: Bill Sommerfeld Cc: Paul Jakma , Casper.Dik@sun.com, Dermot McCluskey , Joseph Kowalski , John.Fischer@sun.com, psarc@sun.com Message-id: <461280A2.9010200@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1175107603.14534.57.camel@sr1-umpk-31> <460ACD42.4070504@sun.com> <460BFD06.7080604@Sun.COM> <460C0B23.5000305@sun.com> <46113B1E.1040103@Sun.COM> <4611500B.1090605@sun.com> <461238C3.7000209@Sun.COM> <1175609656.1365.33.camel@thunk> <200704031439.l33Edwcv016759@vaticaan.holland.sun.com> <1175616738.1001.7.camel@thunk> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060828) Status: RO Content-Length: 1114 Bill Sommerfeld wrote: > On Tue, 2007-04-03 at 15:41 +0100, Paul Jakma wrote: > >> I was wondering though, for a GPL codebase in SFW, would it be allowed >> to make use of readline in ON, if readline were commited to ON as either >> project or consolidation private? >> > > it would make much more sense to put readline into SFW or a hypothetical > "GNU" consolidation as Consolidation Private. > > - Bill > > > IANAL and I'm just asking for education. Is the name 'readline' GPL'd or is the API for readline somehow GPL'd? I thought only the code that implements the API could be copyrighted. From an application programs point of view, this is all that matters char *readline (const char *prompt); The line returned is allocated with malloc(3) The line returned has the final newline removed. If we chose to add an input line history or other additional features, so be it. It was my understanding that as long as we did a clean room implementation that we were not violating the FSF's copyright. Can someone explain what the specific GPL violation is? From sacadmin Tue Apr 3 09:30:22 2007 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l33GUMdp015912 for ; Tue, 3 Apr 2007 09:30:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l33GTovD022800; Tue, 3 Apr 2007 09:29:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JFX00J0XKHQUM00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 10:29:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com ([129.156.42.5]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JFX0079LKHP1E80@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 10:29:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from d1-emea-09.sun.com (d1-emea-09.sun.com [192.18.2.119]) by gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l33GTmMp009969; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 16:29:48 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-emea-09.sun.com by d1-emea-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JFX00K01KFY3000@d1-emea-09.sun.com> (original mail from Dermot.McCluskey@Sun.COM); Tue, 03 Apr 2007 17:29:48 +0100 (BST) Received: from [129.156.220.16] by d1-emea-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JFX00HQNKHO0VMI@d1-emea-09.sun.com>; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 17:29:48 +0100 (BST) Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2007 17:29:48 +0100 From: Dermot McCluskey Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/188 - GNU readline In-reply-to: <1175609656.1365.33.camel@thunk> Sender: Dermot.McCluskey@sun.com To: Bill Sommerfeld Cc: Joseph Kowalski , John.Fischer@sun.com, psarc@sun.com Message-id: <461280FC.9020906@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en-us, en X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1175107603.14534.57.camel@sr1-umpk-31> <460ACD42.4070504@sun.com> <460BFD06.7080604@Sun.COM> <460C0B23.5000305@sun.com> <46113B1E.1040103@Sun.COM> <4611500B.1090605@sun.com> <461238C3.7000209@Sun.COM> <1175609656.1365.33.camel@thunk> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; SunOS sun4u; en-US; rv:1.7) Gecko/20060120 Status: RO Content-Length: 1140 Bill Sommerfeld wrote On 04/03/07 15:14,: >>readline seems to have a more mature and better maintained codebase. >> >> > >But that's irrelevant if the FSF threatens legal action if you try to >use it from code licensed in a way they disfavor. > > Right. That comment was addressing whether it would be preferable to drop readline and integrate libedit instead. >A couple additional questions for the submitter: > > - What's the relationship between this case >and /usr/sfw/include/mysql/readline.h, packaged as part of SUNWsfwhea ? > > MySQL includes a private copy of readline (4.0). I don't know why it needs to install readline.h, unless it is exported readline interfaces in libmysqlclient.so, etc. > - Would it be possible to statically link GNU readline into GPL'ed code >so that we do not need to distribute a readline library or header file >which might be picked up as an available interface? > > Yes, but each app would need to include it's own copy, which is what this case seeks to avoid. Already PostGreSQL and MySQL and probably others are doing this. And now libvirt also requires readline. - Dermot From sacadmin Tue Apr 3 09:31:50 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l33GVobQ015925 for ; Tue, 3 Apr 2007 09:31:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l33GV4pp007743; Tue, 3 Apr 2007 17:31:11 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JFX00J05KJWZN00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 10:31:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from dm-holland-02.uk.sun.com ([129.156.101.225]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JFX007KAKJV1370@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 10:31:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from vaticaan.holland.sun.com (vaticaan.Holland.Sun.COM [129.159.211.1]) by dm-holland-02.uk.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l33GV4OU024966; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 17:31:04 +0100 (BST) Received: from holland (room101 [129.159.248.23]) by vaticaan.holland.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l33GV42P021245; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 18:31:04 +0200 (MEST) Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2007 18:30:44 +0200 From: Casper.Dik@sun.com Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/188 - GNU readline In-reply-to: <461280A2.9010200@sun.com> Sender: casper@holland.sun.com To: Larry Lee Cc: Bill Sommerfeld , Paul Jakma , Dermot McCluskey , Joseph Kowalski , John.Fischer@sun.com, psarc@sun.com Message-id: <200704031631.l33GV42P021245@vaticaan.holland.sun.com> Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1175107603.14534.57.camel@sr1-umpk-31> <460ACD42.4070504@sun.com> <460BFD06.7080604@Sun.COM> <460C0B23.5000305@sun.com> <46113B1E.1040103@Sun.COM> <4611500B.1090605@sun.com> <461238C3.7000209@Sun.COM> <1175609656.1365.33.camel@thunk> <200704031439.l33Edwcv016759@vaticaan.holland.sun.com> <1175616738.1001.7.camel@thunk> <461280A2.9010200@sun.com> Status: RO Content-Length: 401 >I thought only the code that implements the API could be copyrighted. That's not what GNU believes; when you call a GNU API in a GNU library, your work then becomes a "derived work". >It was my understanding that as long as we did a clean room implementation >that we were not violating the FSF's copyright. That is an interesting question but since we have libtecla, who gives a toss? Casper From sacadmin Tue Apr 3 09:41:34 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l33GfXRs015966 for ; Tue, 3 Apr 2007 09:41:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l33Gewl3010793; Tue, 3 Apr 2007 17:41:01 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JFX00K0NL09V500@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 10:40:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com ([129.156.42.5]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JFX007VCL071B80@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 10:40:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: from d1-emea-10.sun.com (d1-emea-10.sun.com [192.18.2.120]) by gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l33GetBW010937; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 16:40:55 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-emea-10.sun.com by d1-emea-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JFX00F01KWE6N00@d1-emea-10.sun.com> (original mail from Paul.Jakma@Sun.COM); Tue, 03 Apr 2007 17:40:55 +0100 (BST) Received: from dhcp-239-0.jakma.org (hibernia.jakma.org [212.17.55.49]) by d1-emea-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JFX00A5OL05GH20@d1-emea-10.sun.com>; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 17:40:55 +0100 (BST) Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2007 17:40:51 +0100 (IST) From: Paul Jakma Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/188 - GNU readline In-reply-to: <1175616738.1001.7.camel@thunk> Sender: Paul.Jakma@sun.com To: Bill Sommerfeld Cc: Casper.Dik@sun.com, Dermot McCluskey , Joseph Kowalski , John.Fischer@sun.com, psarc@sun.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1175107603.14534.57.camel@sr1-umpk-31> <460ACD42.4070504@sun.com> <460BFD06.7080604@Sun.COM> <460C0B23.5000305@sun.com> <46113B1E.1040103@Sun.COM> <4611500B.1090605@sun.com> <461238C3.7000209@Sun.COM> <1175609656.1365.33.camel@thunk> <200704031439.l33Edwcv016759@vaticaan.holland.sun.com> <1175616738.1001.7.camel@thunk> Status: RO Content-Length: 435 On Tue, 3 Apr 2007, Bill Sommerfeld wrote: > it would make much more sense to put readline into SFW or a > hypothetical "GNU" consolidation as Consolidation Private. Along with all its consumers presumably? Seems an idea, if one called it something other than "GNU" ;) (Xen, Quagga, MySQL, etc.. are not GNU). regards, -- Paul Jakma, Solaris Networking http://opensolaris.org/os/project/quagga tel: EMEA x19190 / +353 1 819 9190 From sacadmin Tue Apr 3 09:45:44 2007 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l33GjiPS016300 for ; Tue, 3 Apr 2007 09:45:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l33Gj361012262; Tue, 3 Apr 2007 09:45:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JFX0061TL78GH00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 09:45:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from binky.central.sun.com ([129.153.128.104]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JFX00HLML76LCC0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 09:45:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from binky.central.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by binky.central.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l33GiGtb000352; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 11:44:16 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from nw141292@localhost) by binky.central.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/Submit) id l33GiGAM000351; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 11:44:16 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2007 11:44:15 -0500 From: Nicolas Williams Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/188 - GNU readline In-reply-to: To: Paul Jakma Cc: Bill Sommerfeld , Casper.Dik@sun.com, Dermot McCluskey , Joseph Kowalski , John.Fischer@sun.com, psarc@sun.com Message-id: <20070403164415.GG28748@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <460C0B23.5000305@sun.com> <46113B1E.1040103@Sun.COM> <4611500B.1090605@sun.com> <461238C3.7000209@Sun.COM> <1175609656.1365.33.camel@thunk> <200704031439.l33Edwcv016759@vaticaan.holland.sun.com> <1175616738.1001.7.camel@thunk> X-Authentication-warning: binky.central.sun.com: nw141292 set sender to Nicolas.Williams@sun.com using -f User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.7i Status: RO Content-Length: 696 On Tue, Apr 03, 2007 at 05:40:51PM +0100, Paul Jakma wrote: > On Tue, 3 Apr 2007, Bill Sommerfeld wrote: > > >it would make much more sense to put readline into SFW or a > >hypothetical "GNU" consolidation as Consolidation Private. > > Along with all its consumers presumably? Seems an idea, if one called it > something other than "GNU" ;) (Xen, Quagga, MySQL, etc.. are not GNU). The Viral Licensed Consolidation? One consolidation for each constellation of compatible licenses? I know, that doesn't scale. Never mind this. We'll just have to manage the license fine print -- there's probably no safe, scalable way to aggregate so we can rely on Consolidation Private for enforcement. From sacadmin Tue Apr 3 09:50:20 2007 Received: from newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (newsunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.245]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l33GoKO7016603 for ; Tue, 3 Apr 2007 09:50:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l33Gnm8t056227; Tue, 3 Apr 2007 10:49:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JFX00L1DLEYSW00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 10:49:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from nwk-ea-fw-1.sun.com ([10.4.134.5]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JFX0079KLEX1H90@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 10:49:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: from d1-sfbay-09.sun.com ([192.18.39.119]) by nwk-ea-fw-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l33GnjZx000737; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 09:49:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-sfbay-09.sun.com by d1-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JFX00601LDCZR00@d1-sfbay-09.sun.com> (original mail from Lawrence.Lee@Sun.COM); Tue, 03 Apr 2007 09:49:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.9.61.208] by d1-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JFX007Z5LEV29TO@d1-sfbay-09.sun.com>; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 09:49:44 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2007 09:50:42 -0700 From: Larry Lee Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/188 - GNU readline In-reply-to: <200704031631.l33GV42P021245@vaticaan.holland.sun.com> Sender: Lawrence.Lee@sun.com To: Casper.Dik@sun.com Cc: Bill Sommerfeld , Paul Jakma , Dermot McCluskey , Joseph Kowalski , John.Fischer@sun.com, psarc@sun.com Message-id: <461285E2.1030103@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1175107603.14534.57.camel@sr1-umpk-31> <460ACD42.4070504@sun.com> <460BFD06.7080604@Sun.COM> <460C0B23.5000305@sun.com> <46113B1E.1040103@Sun.COM> <4611500B.1090605@sun.com> <461238C3.7000209@Sun.COM> <1175609656.1365.33.camel@thunk> <200704031439.l33Edwcv016759@vaticaan.holland.sun.com> <1175616738.1001.7.camel@thunk> <461280A2.9010200@sun.com> <200704031631.l33GV42P021245@vaticaan.holland.sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060828) Status: RO Content-Length: 625 Casper.Dik@Sun.COM wrote: >> I thought only the code that implements the API could be copyrighted. >> > > That's not what GNU believes; when you call a GNU API in a GNU library, > your work then becomes a "derived work". > If a GNU library contains GPL'd code, then clearly the GPL applies. The point that I was asking about is if an API could be copyrighted. I never thought so, but that seems to be the issue here, so I'm asking. All the other stuff about whether we'll infect the users applications or whether we should package a function in a separate library presupposses that the function itself is GPL'd. From sacadmin Tue Apr 3 09:57:03 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l33Gv2K6017347 for ; Tue, 3 Apr 2007 09:57:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l33GuNRQ015773; Tue, 3 Apr 2007 17:56:30 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JFX00209LQ5MH00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 09:56:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com ([129.156.42.5]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JFX00HWTLQ4W1E0@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 09:56:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d1-emea-09.sun.com (d1-emea-09.sun.com [192.18.2.119]) by gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l33GuS3B011981; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 16:56:28 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-emea-09.sun.com by d1-emea-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JFX00K01LN5FJ00@d1-emea-09.sun.com> (original mail from Darren.Moffat@Sun.COM); Tue, 03 Apr 2007 17:56:28 +0100 (BST) Received: from [192.168.73.101] (nessieroo.force9.co.uk [81.174.224.49]) by d1-emea-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JFX002XELPZCX10@d1-emea-09.sun.com>; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 17:56:24 +0100 (BST) Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2007 17:56:23 +0100 From: Darren J Moffat Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/188 - GNU readline In-reply-to: <461285E2.1030103@sun.com> Sender: Darren.Moffat@sun.com To: Larry Lee Cc: Casper.Dik@sun.com, Bill Sommerfeld , Paul Jakma , Dermot McCluskey , Joseph Kowalski , John.Fischer@sun.com, psarc@sun.com Message-id: <46128737.30501@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1175107603.14534.57.camel@sr1-umpk-31> <460ACD42.4070504@sun.com> <460BFD06.7080604@Sun.COM> <460C0B23.5000305@sun.com> <46113B1E.1040103@Sun.COM> <4611500B.1090605@sun.com> <461238C3.7000209@Sun.COM> <1175609656.1365.33.camel@thunk> <200704031439.l33Edwcv016759@vaticaan.holland.sun.com> <1175616738.1001.7.camel@thunk> <461280A2.9010200@sun.com> <200704031631.l33GV42P021245@vaticaan.holland.sun.com> <461285E2.1030103@sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.8 (X11/20061127) Status: RO Content-Length: 810 Larry Lee wrote: > Casper.Dik@Sun.COM wrote: >>> I thought only the code that implements the API could be copyrighted. >>> >> >> That's not what GNU believes; when you call a GNU API in a GNU library, >> your work then becomes a "derived work". >> > If a GNU library contains GPL'd code, then clearly the GPL applies. > > The point that I was asking about is if an API could be copyrighted. > I never thought so, but that seems to be the issue here, so I'm asking. If it is then GNU has big problems in their libraries because they have cloned APIs that Sun invented and in our header files that were explicitly marked as Sun copyright and private - there is no way they could have cloned those APIs without reading our header files. [ nsswitch is the example I'm using ]. -- Darren J Moffat From sacadmin Tue Apr 3 09:58:15 2007 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l33GwF7X017408 for ; Tue, 3 Apr 2007 09:58:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l33Gvgri029196; Tue, 3 Apr 2007 09:57:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JFX00213LS6NW00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 09:57:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com ([129.156.42.6]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JFX00HVELS5VZD0@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 09:57:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d1-emea-09.sun.com ([192.18.2.119]) by gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l33GvfAq012738; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 16:57:41 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-emea-09.sun.com by d1-emea-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JFX00K01LN5FJ00@d1-emea-09.sun.com> (original mail from Paul.Jakma@Sun.COM); Tue, 03 Apr 2007 17:57:41 +0100 (BST) Received: from dhcp-239-0.jakma.org (hibernia.jakma.org [212.17.55.49]) by d1-emea-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JFX002XGLS2CX10@d1-emea-09.sun.com>; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 17:57:41 +0100 (BST) Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2007 17:57:36 +0100 (IST) From: Paul Jakma Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/188 - GNU readline In-reply-to: <461285E2.1030103@sun.com> Sender: Paul.Jakma@sun.com To: Larry Lee Cc: Casper.Dik@sun.com, Bill Sommerfeld , Dermot McCluskey , Joseph Kowalski , John.Fischer@sun.com, psarc@sun.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1175107603.14534.57.camel@sr1-umpk-31> <460ACD42.4070504@sun.com> <460BFD06.7080604@Sun.COM> <460C0B23.5000305@sun.com> <46113B1E.1040103@Sun.COM> <4611500B.1090605@sun.com> <461238C3.7000209@Sun.COM> <1175609656.1365.33.camel@thunk> <200704031439.l33Edwcv016759@vaticaan.holland.sun.com> <1175616738.1001.7.camel@thunk> <461280A2.9010200@sun.com> <200704031631.l33GV42P021245@vaticaan.holland.sun.com> <461285E2.1030103@sun.com> Status: RO Content-Length: 548 On Tue, 3 Apr 2007, Larry Lee wrote: > The point that I was asking about is if an API could be copyrighted. I > never thought so, but that seems to be the issue here, so I'm asking. The answer is "It depends". To get a better answer than that, you'd likely need to get into specifics of the case, and you'd need a lawyer. In lieu of that, the safe, default answer is "Using a GPL interface makes your work a derivative". regards, -- Paul Jakma, Solaris Networking http://opensolaris.org/os/project/quagga tel: EMEA x19190 / +353 1 819 9190 From sacadmin Tue Apr 3 10:09:44 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l33H9hMV018065 for ; Tue, 3 Apr 2007 10:09:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l33H93dR020994; Tue, 3 Apr 2007 18:09:09 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JFX0000LMB8L000@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 11:09:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com ([129.146.17.59]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JFX007GLMB81HA0@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 11:09:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [129.150.12.53] (vpn-129-150-12-53.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.12.53]) by jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.0+Sun/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l33H96gf229857; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 10:09:06 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2007 07:08:36 -1000 From: Joseph Kowalski Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/188 - GNU readline In-reply-to: <461238C3.7000209@Sun.COM> To: Dermot McCluskey Cc: John.Fischer@sun.com, psarc@sun.com Message-id: <46128A14.4090603@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1175107603.14534.57.camel@sr1-umpk-31> <460ACD42.4070504@sun.com> <460BFD06.7080604@Sun.COM> <460C0B23.5000305@sun.com> <46113B1E.1040103@Sun.COM> <4611500B.1090605@sun.com> <461238C3.7000209@Sun.COM> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060925) Status: RO X-Status: A Content-Length: 2195 Lines: 59 Dermot McCluskey wrote: > Joseph Kowalski wrote On 04/02/07 19:48,: > >> I hadn't even thought of the GPL issue when I posted this. Bill >> brought that up. > > > I deliberately avoided mentioning licensing matters, as I didn't > think they would concen ARC. Its a special case. Management asked us a few years ago to just make sure that the appropriate legal steps had been followed. We aren't supposed to deep dive. >> I know the rules keep changing, but I still think we aren't allowed >> to bring in >> traditional gpl components. Do we need legal review? Did this pass >> the legal >> "quick analysis" form (whatever they call it, assuming it still exists)? >> >> If we do bring this in, how do we keep from tainting ourselves? >> >> How to we make sure that if our customers taint themselves, they do >> it with >> full knowledge and consent? > > > Stephen Hahn and Marilyn Shoemaker are working with Legal on > new guidelinves for GPL/LGPL integration. Amongst other things, > these guidelines will put the onus on developers to ensure they are > aware of the licenses of code they are using/linking to and the > implications of those licenses. Is this project then dependent on this policy change happening? Somebody will need to create a best practice and documentation requirements if we go this path. Are Hahn/Shoemaker intent on doing that? (This may be a good idea, but getting a thousand or so Sun software developers with the program will have a substantial cost.) Isn't Hahn now MIA? :-\ >> If as Bill suggests, there is a BSD equivalent, we are far better >> going that way. > > > libedit (BSD) says it *aims* for 100% readline API compatibility, but > the information available is very scarce and I've read that it is not a > drop-in replacement. readline seems to have a more mature and > better maintained codebase. Everything has pluses and minuses. Even if we have to do the work to convert 99.44% into 100% API compatibility we should go with the more appropriate license. Even if we are allowed to integrate a GPL license, that doesn't mean we should. > If Bill or other members can shed more light on libedit, I'd be grateful. > > - Dermot - jek3 From sacadmin Tue Apr 3 10:12:16 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l33HCF78018098 for ; Tue, 3 Apr 2007 10:12:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l33HBctU021888; Tue, 3 Apr 2007 18:11:42 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JFX00007MFERP00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 11:11:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com ([129.156.42.5]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JFX007MKMFD1790@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 11:11:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from d1-emea-09.sun.com (d1-emea-09.sun.com [192.18.2.119]) by gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l33HBbV5012840; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 17:11:37 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-emea-09.sun.com by d1-emea-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JFX00B01MBBQ800@d1-emea-09.sun.com> (original mail from Paul.Jakma@Sun.COM); Tue, 03 Apr 2007 18:11:37 +0100 (BST) Received: from dhcp-239-0.jakma.org (hibernia.jakma.org [212.17.55.49]) by d1-emea-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JFX002YVMF8CX10@d1-emea-09.sun.com>; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 18:11:36 +0100 (BST) Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2007 18:11:30 +0100 (IST) From: Paul Jakma Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/188 - GNU readline In-reply-to: <46128737.30501@Sun.COM> Sender: Paul.Jakma@sun.com To: Darren J Moffat Cc: Larry Lee , Casper.Dik@sun.com, Bill Sommerfeld , Dermot McCluskey , Joseph Kowalski , John.Fischer@sun.com, psarc@sun.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1175107603.14534.57.camel@sr1-umpk-31> <460ACD42.4070504@sun.com> <460BFD06.7080604@Sun.COM> <460C0B23.5000305@sun.com> <46113B1E.1040103@Sun.COM> <4611500B.1090605@sun.com> <461238C3.7000209@Sun.COM> <1175609656.1365.33.camel@thunk> <200704031439.l33Edwcv016759@vaticaan.holland.sun.com> <1175616738.1001.7.camel@thunk> <461280A2.9010200@sun.com> <200704031631.l33GV42P021245@vaticaan.holland.sun.com> <461285E2.1030103@sun.com> <46128737.30501@Sun.COM> Status: RO Content-Length: 1181 Lines: 30 On Tue, 3 Apr 2007, Darren J Moffat wrote: > If it is then GNU has big problems in their libraries because they > have cloned APIs that Sun invented and in our header files that were > explicitly marked as Sun copyright and private - there is no way they > could have cloned those APIs without reading our header files. Copyright, in the USA anyway, does not apply to functional expression[2], e.g. arbitrary symbol definitions and constants.[1] So that's slightly different from incorporating copyrighted code into your own work through function calls (be it by compile or run time binding to those functions). That does not mean the header file can be copied literally. Comments and explanations in the header file could be copyrightable, there might even be copyrightable code in the header via macros. This is off-topic for PSARC I think.. 1. IANAL, etc.. Don't put any value in what's written above :) 2. Note: In Ireland and UK functional data like databases are considered copyrightable. I've no idea if USA has legislated similarly. regards, -- Paul Jakma, Solaris Networking http://opensolaris.org/os/project/quagga tel: EMEA x19190 / +353 1 819 9190 From sacadmin Tue Apr 3 10:13:29 2007 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l33HDTJD018111 for ; Tue, 3 Apr 2007 10:13:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l33HCtOM020603; Tue, 3 Apr 2007 10:12:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JFX0030BMHJEY00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 10:12:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com ([129.146.17.59]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JFX00H9VMHHVYD0@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 10:12:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [129.150.12.53] (vpn-129-150-12-53.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.12.53]) by jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.0+Sun/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l33HCqWf230507; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 10:12:53 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2007 07:12:25 -1000 From: Joseph Kowalski Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/188 - GNU readline In-reply-to: <17938.16796.735598.122663@gargle.gargle.HOWL> To: James Carlson Cc: Dermot McCluskey , John.Fischer@sun.com, psarc@sun.com Message-id: <46128AF9.6000505@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1175107603.14534.57.camel@sr1-umpk-31> <460ACD42.4070504@sun.com> <460BFD06.7080604@Sun.COM> <460C0B23.5000305@sun.com> <46113B1E.1040103@Sun.COM> <4611500B.1090605@sun.com> <461238C3.7000209@Sun.COM> <17938.16796.735598.122663@gargle.gargle.HOWL> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060925) Status: RO Content-Length: 363 Lines: 11 James Carlson wrote: > As a process matter, I don't think we've ever had a "public and stable > but you [Sun internal developer] still can't use it" sort of interface > before. Do we need a new adjective in the taxonomy ("Viral"?)? > John and I already exchanged a bit of private mail on this, and the term "Viral" had already been suggested. ;-) - jek3 From sacadmin Tue Apr 3 10:16:14 2007 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l33HGEwj018127 for ; Tue, 3 Apr 2007 10:16:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l33HFfZt005773; Tue, 3 Apr 2007 10:15:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JFX00107MM56X00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 11:15:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: from jurassic.eng.sun.com ([129.146.56.36]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JFX007XMMM51HA0@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 11:15:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [129.146.108.211] (almas.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.108.211]) by jurassic.eng.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l33HFeF2185597; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 10:15:40 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2007 10:15:40 -0700 From: Alan Coopersmith Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/188 - GNU readline In-reply-to: <46128A14.4090603@sun.com> To: Joseph Kowalski Cc: Dermot McCluskey , John.Fischer@Sun.COM, psarc@Sun.COM Message-id: <46128BBC.40901@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1175107603.14534.57.camel@sr1-umpk-31> <460ACD42.4070504@sun.com> <460BFD06.7080604@Sun.COM> <460C0B23.5000305@sun.com> <46113B1E.1040103@Sun.COM> <4611500B.1090605@sun.com> <461238C3.7000209@Sun.COM> <46128A14.4090603@sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0pre (X11/20070214) Status: RO Content-Length: 687 Lines: 16 Joseph Kowalski wrote: >> Stephen Hahn and Marilyn Shoemaker are working with Legal on >> new guidelinves for GPL/LGPL integration. Amongst other things, >> these guidelines will put the onus on developers to ensure they are >> aware of the licenses of code they are using/linking to and the >> implications of those licenses. > Is this project then dependent on this policy change happening? We don't really have a current policy to change. There's a draft GPL policy from years ago, but it's clearly not enforced, since otherwise we'd never have GNOME in /usr/bin. -- -Alan Coopersmith- alan.coopersmith@sun.com Sun Microsystems, Inc. - X Window System Engineering From sacadmin Tue Apr 3 10:19:51 2007 Received: from newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (newsunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.245]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l33HJpX1018555 for ; Tue, 3 Apr 2007 10:19:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l33HJ8FI000028; Tue, 3 Apr 2007 11:19:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JFX0094TMRWAK00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 10:19:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com ([129.146.17.59]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JFX00H81MRTLAE0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 10:19:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [129.150.12.53] (vpn-129-150-12-53.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.12.53]) by jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.0+Sun/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l33HJ4Zo231957; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 10:19:04 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2007 07:18:36 -1000 From: Joseph Kowalski Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/188 - GNU readline In-reply-to: To: Paul Jakma Cc: Casper.Dik@sun.com, Bill Sommerfeld , Dermot McCluskey , John.Fischer@sun.com, psarc@sun.com Message-id: <46128C6C.9070205@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1175107603.14534.57.camel@sr1-umpk-31> <460ACD42.4070504@sun.com> <460BFD06.7080604@Sun.COM> <460C0B23.5000305@sun.com> <46113B1E.1040103@Sun.COM> <4611500B.1090605@sun.com> <461238C3.7000209@Sun.COM> <1175609656.1365.33.camel@thunk> <200704031439.l33Edwcv016759@vaticaan.holland.sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060925) Status: RO Content-Length: 495 Lines: 15 Paul Jakma wrote: > Right. > > I was wondering though, for a GPL codebase in SFW, would it be allowed > to make use of readline in ON, if readline were commited to ON as > either project or consolidation private? It would require a contract, as for any project/consolidation private interface in another consolidation. This seems to be blindly following the rules, but that would be the case. Only Committed interfaces are available for free use across consolidation boundaries. - jek3 From sacadmin Tue Apr 3 10:41:28 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l33HfRdN019638 for ; Tue, 3 Apr 2007 10:41:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l33HelTv001233; Tue, 3 Apr 2007 18:40:53 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JFX0040BNS2KU00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 10:40:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail3mpk.sfbay.Sun.COM ([129.146.11.26]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JFX00479NS1GJ00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 10:40:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zion.eng.sun.com (zion.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.17.75]) by engmail3mpk.sfbay.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l33HekBZ016762; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 10:40:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [129.146.228.109] (cyber [129.146.228.109]) by zion.eng.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7) with ESMTP id l33HekSw010125; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 10:40:46 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2007 10:39:44 -0700 From: Bart Smaalders Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/188 - GNU readline In-reply-to: To: Paul Jakma Cc: Larry Lee , Casper.Dik@sun.com, Bill Sommerfeld , Dermot McCluskey , Joseph Kowalski , John.Fischer@sun.com, psarc@sun.com Message-id: <46129160.6050400@Sun.COM> Organization: Sun Microsystems MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1175107603.14534.57.camel@sr1-umpk-31> <460ACD42.4070504@sun.com> <460BFD06.7080604@Sun.COM> <460C0B23.5000305@sun.com> <46113B1E.1040103@Sun.COM> <4611500B.1090605@sun.com> <461238C3.7000209@Sun.COM> <1175609656.1365.33.camel@thunk> <200704031439.l33Edwcv016759@vaticaan.holland.sun.com> <1175616738.1001.7.camel@thunk> <461280A2.9010200@sun.com> <200704031631.l33GV42P021245@vaticaan.holland.sun.com> <461285E2.1030103@sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0b2 (X11/20070227) Status: RO Content-Length: 784 Lines: 24 Paul Jakma wrote: > On Tue, 3 Apr 2007, Larry Lee wrote: > >> The point that I was asking about is if an API could be copyrighted. I >> never thought so, but that seems to be the issue here, so I'm asking. > > The answer is "It depends". To get a better answer than that, you'd > likely need to get into specifics of the case, and you'd need a lawyer. > > In lieu of that, the safe, default answer is "Using a GPL interface > makes your work a derivative". No. I'm about to putback code into libc; the functional interface is the same as that provided by glibc. We copy their interfaces, they copy ours, and we all copy BSD's. That's how software becomes portable. - Bart -- Bart Smaalders Solaris Kernel Performance barts@cyber.eng.sun.com http://blogs.sun.com/barts From sacadmin Tue Apr 3 11:11:11 2007 Received: from newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (newsunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.245]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l33IBBBV021156 for ; Tue, 3 Apr 2007 11:11:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l33IAV7d012159; Tue, 3 Apr 2007 12:10:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JFX00C3JP5POT00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 11:10:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com ([129.146.17.59]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JFX00B70P5POQ10@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 11:10:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [129.150.12.53] (vpn-129-150-12-53.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.12.53]) by jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.0+Sun/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l33IAaaf243621; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 11:10:36 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2007 08:10:09 -1000 From: Joseph Kowalski Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/188 - GNU readline In-reply-to: <46126841.4010409@sun.com> To: Mark Johnson Cc: Bill Sommerfeld , Dermot McCluskey , John.Fischer@sun.com, psarc@sun.com Message-id: <46129881.9040904@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1175107603.14534.57.camel@sr1-umpk-31> <460ACD42.4070504@sun.com> <460BFD06.7080604@Sun.COM> <460C0B23.5000305@sun.com> <46113B1E.1040103@Sun.COM> <4611500B.1090605@sun.com> <461238C3.7000209@Sun.COM> <1175609656.1365.33.camel@thunk> <46126841.4010409@sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060925) Status: RO Content-Length: 531 Lines: 20 Mark Johnson wrote: > Extending the taxonomy seem appropriate. Its really a new Taxonomy. The effect of the license and the stability of the interface are orthogonal. I can see the levels of Viralness right now... We could name them after various STDs. After all, they often are associated with ill-advised linking. ;-) The upper couple of levels could be: Herpes: It doesn't kill you, but its forever. HIV: Kills you (probably). I hope I haven't offended anyone with this. Apologies in advance. - jek3 From sacadmin Tue Apr 3 11:14:24 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l33IENUQ021363 for ; Tue, 3 Apr 2007 11:14:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l33IDdZ7010564; Tue, 3 Apr 2007 19:13:48 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JFX00605PAY2Q00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 11:13:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com ([129.146.17.59]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JFX004OJPAYG300@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 11:13:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [129.150.12.53] (vpn-129-150-12-53.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.12.53]) by jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.0+Sun/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l33IDhtJ244750; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 11:13:44 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2007 08:13:12 -1000 From: Joseph Kowalski Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/188 - GNU readline In-reply-to: <1175616738.1001.7.camel@thunk> To: Bill Sommerfeld Cc: Paul Jakma , Casper.Dik@sun.com, Dermot McCluskey , John.Fischer@sun.com, psarc@sun.com Message-id: <46129938.6020406@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1175107603.14534.57.camel@sr1-umpk-31> <460ACD42.4070504@sun.com> <460BFD06.7080604@Sun.COM> <460C0B23.5000305@sun.com> <46113B1E.1040103@Sun.COM> <4611500B.1090605@sun.com> <461238C3.7000209@Sun.COM> <1175609656.1365.33.camel@thunk> <200704031439.l33Edwcv016759@vaticaan.holland.sun.com> <1175616738.1001.7.camel@thunk> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060925) Status: RO Content-Length: 539 Lines: 19 Bill Sommerfeld wrote: > On Tue, 2007-04-03 at 15:41 +0100, Paul Jakma wrote: > >> I was wondering though, for a GPL codebase in SFW, would it be allowed >> to make use of readline in ON, if readline were commited to ON as either >> project or consolidation private? >> > > it would make much more sense to put readline into SFW or a hypothetical > "GNU" consolidation as Consolidation Private. > > - Bill > Wouldn't it be better to make this some level of Public? (After working through the license issues.) - jek3 From sacadmin Tue Apr 3 11:18:57 2007 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l33IIvQ4021419 for ; Tue, 3 Apr 2007 11:18:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l33IIKH3006607; Tue, 3 Apr 2007 11:18:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JFX00701PIJ4A00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 12:18:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com ([129.146.17.59]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JFX007K8PII1BE0@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 12:18:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [129.150.12.53] (vpn-129-150-12-53.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.12.53]) by jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.0+Sun/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l33IIHbr246209; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 11:18:18 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2007 08:17:50 -1000 From: Joseph Kowalski Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/188 - GNU readline In-reply-to: To: Paul Jakma Cc: Bill Sommerfeld , Casper.Dik@Sun.COM, Dermot McCluskey , John.Fischer@Sun.COM, psarc@Sun.COM Message-id: <46129A4E.6060401@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1175107603.14534.57.camel@sr1-umpk-31> <460ACD42.4070504@sun.com> <460BFD06.7080604@Sun.COM> <460C0B23.5000305@sun.com> <46113B1E.1040103@Sun.COM> <4611500B.1090605@sun.com> <461238C3.7000209@Sun.COM> <1175609656.1365.33.camel@thunk> <200704031439.l33Edwcv016759@vaticaan.holland.sun.com> <1175616738.1001.7.camel@thunk> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060925) Status: RO Content-Length: 215 Lines: 7 Paul Jakma wrote: > Along with all its consumers presumably? Seems an idea, if one called > it something other than "GNU" ;) (Xen, Quagga, MySQL, etc.. are not GNU). I know! We could call is Sun FreeWare. - jek3 From sacadmin Tue Apr 3 11:23:22 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l33INL87021695 for ; Tue, 3 Apr 2007 11:23:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l33IMkib013309; Tue, 3 Apr 2007 19:22:49 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JFX00707PPZIG00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 12:22:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: from jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com ([129.146.17.59]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JFX007RFPPY13C0@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 12:22:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [129.150.12.53] (vpn-129-150-12-53.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.12.53]) by jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.0+Sun/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l33IMjDr247100; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 11:22:46 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2007 08:22:18 -1000 From: Joseph Kowalski Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/188 - GNU readline In-reply-to: <46128BBC.40901@sun.com> To: Alan Coopersmith Cc: Dermot McCluskey , John.Fischer@sun.com, psarc@sun.com Message-id: <46129B5A.8060107@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1175107603.14534.57.camel@sr1-umpk-31> <460ACD42.4070504@sun.com> <460BFD06.7080604@Sun.COM> <460C0B23.5000305@sun.com> <46113B1E.1040103@Sun.COM> <4611500B.1090605@sun.com> <461238C3.7000209@Sun.COM> <46128A14.4090603@sun.com> <46128BBC.40901@sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060925) Status: RO Content-Length: 716 Lines: 16 Alan Coopersmith wrote: > Joseph Kowalski wrote: >>> Stephen Hahn and Marilyn Shoemaker are working with Legal on >>> new guidelinves for GPL/LGPL integration. Amongst other things, >>> these guidelines will put the onus on developers to ensure they are >>> aware of the licenses of code they are using/linking to and the >>> implications of those licenses. >> Is this project then dependent on this policy change happening? > > We don't really have a current policy to change. There's a draft GPL > policy from years ago, but it's clearly not enforced, since otherwise > we'd never have GNOME in /usr/bin. I'm not even close to an expert, but GNOME is LGPL and I thought that difference was significant. - jek3 From sacadmin Tue Apr 3 11:31:18 2007 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l33IVIa2021743 for ; Tue, 3 Apr 2007 11:31:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l33IUiCO022052; Tue, 3 Apr 2007 11:30:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JFX0080BQ3AAM00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 12:30:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from eastmail1bur.East.Sun.COM ([129.148.9.49]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JFX007DKQ391CE0@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 12:30:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from thunk.east.sun.com (thunk.East.Sun.COM [129.148.174.66]) by eastmail1bur.East.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l33IUhCG027972; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 14:30:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [IPv6:::1] (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by thunk.east.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l33IUhg4002633; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 14:30:43 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2007 14:30:42 -0400 From: Bill Sommerfeld Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/188 - GNU readline In-reply-to: <46129938.6020406@sun.com> To: Joseph Kowalski Cc: Paul Jakma , Casper.Dik@sun.com, Dermot McCluskey , John.Fischer@sun.com, psarc@sun.com Message-id: <1175625042.1001.32.camel@thunk> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.8.1.1 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1175107603.14534.57.camel@sr1-umpk-31> <460ACD42.4070504@sun.com> <460BFD06.7080604@Sun.COM> <460C0B23.5000305@sun.com> <46113B1E.1040103@Sun.COM> <4611500B.1090605@sun.com> <461238C3.7000209@Sun.COM> <1175609656.1365.33.camel@thunk> <200704031439.l33Edwcv016759@vaticaan.holland.sun.com> <1175616738.1001.7.camel@thunk> <46129938.6020406@sun.com> Status: RO Content-Length: 658 Lines: 30 On Tue, 2007-04-03 at 08:13 -1000, Joseph Kowalski wrote: > Wouldn't it be better to make this some level of Public? (After working > through the license issues.) The license issues severely constrain the ability of many projects to import the interface. I think that rules out any form of Public as it is currently understood. Just as "Private" doesn't mean "secret", "widely used" doesn't automatically imply "Public". I think there's a bunch of interfaces out there which occupy a fuzzy middle ground between Private and Public. Maybe things like the apache module API are in there, too. maybe we could say "Restricted"? - Bill From sacadmin Tue Apr 3 11:31:57 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l33IVuvh021756 for ; Tue, 3 Apr 2007 11:31:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l33IVEBx002240; Wed, 4 Apr 2007 02:31:19 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JFX00D2BQ44ZX00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 11:31:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jurassic.eng.sun.com ([129.146.108.31]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JFX00BZVQ42OO20@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 11:31:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [129.146.108.211] (almas.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.108.211]) by jurassic.eng.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l33IVDiE206385; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 11:31:13 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2007 11:31:13 -0700 From: Alan Coopersmith Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/188 - GNU readline In-reply-to: <46129B5A.8060107@sun.com> To: Joseph Kowalski Cc: Dermot McCluskey , John.Fischer@sun.com, psarc@sun.com Message-id: <46129D71.1090706@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1175107603.14534.57.camel@sr1-umpk-31> <460ACD42.4070504@sun.com> <460BFD06.7080604@Sun.COM> <460C0B23.5000305@sun.com> <46113B1E.1040103@Sun.COM> <4611500B.1090605@sun.com> <461238C3.7000209@Sun.COM> <46128A14.4090603@sun.com> <46128BBC.40901@sun.com> <46129B5A.8060107@sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0pre (X11/20070214) Status: RO Content-Length: 1721 Lines: 43 Joseph Kowalski wrote: > Alan Coopersmith wrote: >> Joseph Kowalski wrote: >>>> Stephen Hahn and Marilyn Shoemaker are working with Legal on >>>> new guidelinves for GPL/LGPL integration. Amongst other things, >>>> these guidelines will put the onus on developers to ensure they are >>>> aware of the licenses of code they are using/linking to and the >>>> implications of those licenses. >>> Is this project then dependent on this policy change happening? >> >> We don't really have a current policy to change. There's a draft GPL >> policy from years ago, but it's clearly not enforced, since otherwise >> we'd never have GNOME in /usr/bin. > I'm not even close to an expert, but GNOME is LGPL and I thought that > difference was significant. GNOME libraries are LGPL, GNOME binaries are GPL. The previous draft policy does not reflect this significance and simply states: 7. The default environment paths proprietary code or technology (e.g. $PATH, $LD_LIBRARY_PATH) should not lead Sun customers (e.g. ISVs) to GPL/LGPL code modules. Of course it also states: 1. GPL libraries may not be used or linked with Sun XXXprietary code or technology, such as Solaris. 4. No GPL source code may be incorporated into the Sun code base or technology. which is clearly both out-of-date and oversimplified. The full set of "GPL/LGPL Architectural Rules" (which no ARC has ever approved despite the name) are at: http://sunwebcms.central.sun.com:8001/sunweb/cda/mainAssembly/0,2685,455298_5190_31971727,00.html Sadly, they seem to have removed the "Draft" tag since I last looked a few months ago. -- -Alan Coopersmith- alan.coopersmith@sun.com Sun Microsystems, Inc. - X Window System Engineering From sacadmin Tue Apr 3 11:38:00 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l33Ibxg6021891 for ; Tue, 3 Apr 2007 11:37:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l33IbI3P003822; Wed, 4 Apr 2007 02:37:19 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JFX00E3NQE5DL00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 11:37:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com ([129.146.17.59]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JFX00BMAQE4OV30@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 11:37:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [129.150.12.53] (vpn-129-150-12-53.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.12.53]) by jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.0+Sun/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l33IbFeB250052; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 11:37:15 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2007 08:36:48 -1000 From: Joseph Kowalski Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/188 - GNU readline In-reply-to: <1175625042.1001.32.camel@thunk> To: Bill Sommerfeld Cc: Paul Jakma , Casper.Dik@sun.com, Dermot McCluskey , John.Fischer@sun.com, psarc@sun.com Message-id: <46129EC0.4000102@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1175107603.14534.57.camel@sr1-umpk-31> <460ACD42.4070504@sun.com> <460BFD06.7080604@Sun.COM> <460C0B23.5000305@sun.com> <46113B1E.1040103@Sun.COM> <4611500B.1090605@sun.com> <461238C3.7000209@Sun.COM> <1175609656.1365.33.camel@thunk> <200704031439.l33Edwcv016759@vaticaan.holland.sun.com> <1175616738.1001.7.camel@thunk> <46129938.6020406@sun.com> <1175625042.1001.32.camel@thunk> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060925) Status: RO Content-Length: 1120 Lines: 41 Bill Sommerfeld wrote: > On Tue, 2007-04-03 at 08:13 -1000, Joseph Kowalski wrote: > >> Wouldn't it be better to make this some level of Public? (After working >> through the license issues.) >> > > The license issues severely constrain the ability of many projects to > import the interface. I think that rules out any form of Public as it > is currently understood. > > Just as "Private" doesn't mean "secret", "widely used" doesn't > automatically imply "Public". > > I think there's a bunch of interfaces out there which occupy a fuzzy > middle ground between Private and Public. > > Maybe things like the apache module API are in there, too. > > maybe we could say "Restricted"? > > - Bill > This isn't Apache, Python or Perl. Its a simple little bit of code, not a complex stack with many person years of investment. I'm still *strongly* pushing for your suggestion of NetBSD or Lee's suggestion of a "clean room". What's better: 100% compatible which few can use or 99.44% compatible which all can use. This seems like a no-brainer to me. (libtecla not withstanding). - jek3 > > From sacadmin Tue Apr 3 11:44:16 2007 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l33IiGdJ022064 for ; Tue, 3 Apr 2007 11:44:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l33IhgIY024497; Tue, 3 Apr 2007 11:43:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JFX00E1BQOTRK00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 11:43:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dm-holland-02.uk.sun.com ([129.156.101.225]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JFX00BI4QOQOW30@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 11:43:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vaticaan.holland.sun.com (vaticaan.Holland.Sun.COM [129.159.201.10]) by dm-holland-02.uk.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l33IhZDX015829; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 19:43:35 +0100 (BST) Received: from holland (room101 [129.159.248.23]) by vaticaan.holland.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l33IhZlY026750; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 20:43:35 +0200 (MEST) Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2007 20:43:15 +0200 From: Casper.Dik@sun.com Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/188 - GNU readline In-reply-to: <461285E2.1030103@sun.com> Sender: casper@holland.sun.com To: Larry Lee Cc: Bill Sommerfeld , Paul Jakma , Dermot McCluskey , Joseph Kowalski , John.Fischer@sun.com, psarc@sun.com Message-id: <200704031843.l33IhZlY026750@vaticaan.holland.sun.com> Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1175107603.14534.57.camel@sr1-umpk-31> <460ACD42.4070504@sun.com> <460BFD06.7080604@Sun.COM> <460C0B23.5000305@sun.com> <46113B1E.1040103@Sun.COM> <4611500B.1090605@sun.com> <461238C3.7000209@Sun.COM> <1175609656.1365.33.camel@thunk> <200704031439.l33Edwcv016759@vaticaan.holland.sun.com> <1175616738.1001.7.camel@thunk> <461280A2.9010200@sun.com> <200704031631.l33GV42P021245@vaticaan.holland.sun.com> <461285E2.1030103@sun.com> Status: RO Content-Length: 343 Lines: 13 >If a GNU library contains GPL'd code, then clearly the GPL applies. No, that's not what I said. What I said that: if a program *optionally* can use a GPL'ed library, then it falls under the GPL; at least, that has always been GNU claim wrt readline. So it's the use of the API, not the linking which is claimed to force the GPL. Casper From sacadmin Tue Apr 3 11:45:37 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l33Ija1v022077 for ; Tue, 3 Apr 2007 11:45:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l33IigME006150; Wed, 4 Apr 2007 02:45:01 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JFX00705QQZH700@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 11:44:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com ([129.146.17.59]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JFX0045DQQZG320@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 11:44:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [129.150.12.53] (vpn-129-150-12-53.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.12.53]) by jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.0+Sun/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l33IiukQ251934; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 11:44:58 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2007 08:44:29 -1000 From: Joseph Kowalski Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/188 - GNU readline In-reply-to: <46129D71.1090706@sun.com> To: Alan Coopersmith Cc: Dermot McCluskey , John.Fischer@sun.com, psarc@sun.com Message-id: <4612A08D.9030206@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1175107603.14534.57.camel@sr1-umpk-31> <460ACD42.4070504@sun.com> <460BFD06.7080604@Sun.COM> <460C0B23.5000305@sun.com> <46113B1E.1040103@Sun.COM> <4611500B.1090605@sun.com> <461238C3.7000209@Sun.COM> <46128A14.4090603@sun.com> <46128BBC.40901@sun.com> <46129B5A.8060107@sun.com> <46129D71.1090706@sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060925) Status: RO Content-Length: 2022 Lines: 56 Alan Coopersmith wrote: > Joseph Kowalski wrote: >> Alan Coopersmith wrote: >>> Joseph Kowalski wrote: >>>>> Stephen Hahn and Marilyn Shoemaker are working with Legal on >>>>> new guidelinves for GPL/LGPL integration. Amongst other things, >>>>> these guidelines will put the onus on developers to ensure they are >>>>> aware of the licenses of code they are using/linking to and the >>>>> implications of those licenses. >>>> Is this project then dependent on this policy change happening? >>> >>> We don't really have a current policy to change. There's a draft GPL >>> policy from years ago, but it's clearly not enforced, since otherwise >>> we'd never have GNOME in /usr/bin. >> I'm not even close to an expert, but GNOME is LGPL and I thought that >> difference was significant. > > GNOME libraries are LGPL, GNOME binaries are GPL. The previous draft > policy does not reflect this significance and simply states: > > 7. The default environment paths proprietary code or technology (e.g. > $PATH, $LD_LIBRARY_PATH) should not lead Sun customers (e.g. ISVs) to > GPL/LGPL code modules. > > Of course it also states: > > 1. GPL libraries may not be used or linked with Sun XXXprietary code > or technology, such as Solaris. > > 4. No GPL source code may be incorporated into the Sun code base or > technology. > > which is clearly both out-of-date and oversimplified. > > The full set of "GPL/LGPL Architectural Rules" (which no ARC has ever > approved > despite the name) are at: > http://sunwebcms.central.sun.com:8001/sunweb/cda/mainAssembly/0,2685,455298_5190_31971727,00.html > > > Sadly, they seem to have removed the "Draft" tag since I last looked a > few > months ago. Wow. This is an ugly can of worms. At first glance, looks like sloppy use of GPL vs LGPL. I'm pretty sure there is a document somewhere which differenciates GPL and LGPL. Focusing on this case, its GPL, so these convolutions don't apply. (And if we messed up with Gnome, that's not a reason to mess up here.) - jek3 From sacadmin Tue Apr 3 11:57:30 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l33IvTN5022652 for ; Tue, 3 Apr 2007 11:57:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l33IuY7L009612; Wed, 4 Apr 2007 02:56:55 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JFX00B0BRAU1U00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 12:56:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com ([192.18.98.34]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JFX00A6YRATM800@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 12:56:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from fe-amer-09.sun.com ([192.18.108.183]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l33IurTZ023145; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 18:56:53 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.mail-amer.sun.com by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JFX00101R2EPI00@mail-amer.sun.com> (original mail from Mark.Johnson@Sun.COM); Tue, 03 Apr 2007 12:56:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mrj.local ([192.9.61.47]) by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JFX004UFRAG1B1K@mail-amer.sun.com>; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 12:56:46 -0600 (MDT) Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2007 14:57:03 -0400 From: Mark Johnson Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/188 - GNU readline In-reply-to: <46129881.9040904@sun.com> Sender: Mark.Johnson@sun.com To: Joseph Kowalski Cc: Bill Sommerfeld , Dermot McCluskey , John.Fischer@sun.com, psarc@sun.com Message-id: <4612A37F.7070308@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1175107603.14534.57.camel@sr1-umpk-31> <460ACD42.4070504@sun.com> <460BFD06.7080604@Sun.COM> <460C0B23.5000305@sun.com> <46113B1E.1040103@Sun.COM> <4611500B.1090605@sun.com> <461238C3.7000209@Sun.COM> <1175609656.1365.33.camel@thunk> <46126841.4010409@sun.com> <46129881.9040904@sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0b2 (Macintosh/20070116) Status: RO Content-Length: 959 Lines: 44 Joseph Kowalski wrote: > Mark Johnson wrote: >> Extending the taxonomy seem appropriate. > Its really a new Taxonomy. The effect of the license and the stability > of the interface are orthogonal. That makes sense. > I can see the levels of Viralness right now... :-) I can't tell from your joke if you suggesting that this is a bad idea.. In case you are :-) I think it would be wrong to say that Solaris cannot include any GPL'd libraries. It seems some people are suggesting that. That seems more of a policy/legal issue to me? I also think it makes sense to tag any such libraries so it's clear which libraries are GPL (or your viral license of the week). Whether that's a new taxonomy or something else doesn't matter to me. With the assumption that legal agrees that it's OK to include this, what else needs to be done to get approval from the ARC? MRJ -- Mark Johnson Sun Microsystems, Inc. (781) 442-0869 From sacadmin Tue Apr 3 12:06:50 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l33J6nkd022755 for ; Tue, 3 Apr 2007 12:06:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l33J66RB012495; Wed, 4 Apr 2007 03:06:10 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JFX00809RQ6MY00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 12:06:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com ([129.146.17.59]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JFX004KWRQ2G250@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 12:06:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [129.150.12.53] (vpn-129-150-12-53.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.12.53]) by jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.0+Sun/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l33J60LZ256603; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 12:06:00 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2007 09:05:32 -1000 From: Joseph Kowalski Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/188 - GNU readline In-reply-to: <200704031843.l33IhZlY026750@vaticaan.holland.sun.com> To: Casper.Dik@sun.com Cc: Larry Lee , Bill Sommerfeld , Paul Jakma , Dermot McCluskey , John.Fischer@sun.com, psarc@sun.com Message-id: <4612A57C.6050800@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1175107603.14534.57.camel@sr1-umpk-31> <460ACD42.4070504@sun.com> <460BFD06.7080604@Sun.COM> <460C0B23.5000305@sun.com> <46113B1E.1040103@Sun.COM> <4611500B.1090605@sun.com> <461238C3.7000209@Sun.COM> <1175609656.1365.33.camel@thunk> <200704031439.l33Edwcv016759@vaticaan.holland.sun.com> <1175616738.1001.7.camel@thunk> <461280A2.9010200@sun.com> <200704031631.l33GV42P021245@vaticaan.holland.sun.com> <461285E2.1030103@sun.com> <200704031843.l33IhZlY026750@vaticaan.holland.sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060925) Status: RO Content-Length: 519 Lines: 19 Casper.Dik@sun.com wrote: >> If a GNU library contains GPL'd code, then clearly the GPL applies. >> > > No, that's not what I said. > > What I said that: if a program *optionally* can use a GPL'ed library, > then it falls under the GPL; at least, that has always been GNU > claim wrt readline. > > So it's the use of the API, not the linking which is claimed to force > the GPL. > That's a pretty strong claim which minimally will run into problems with "prior art". Has this claim ever been tested? - jek3 From sacadmin Tue Apr 3 12:14:54 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l33JErRU022813 for ; Tue, 3 Apr 2007 12:14:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l33JEEf3026532; Tue, 3 Apr 2007 20:14:16 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JFX00803S3SY000@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 12:14:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from binky.central.sun.com ([129.153.128.104]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JFX004OBS3RG330@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 12:14:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from binky.central.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by binky.central.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l33JDOsf000436; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 14:13:24 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from nw141292@localhost) by binky.central.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/Submit) id l33JDOa8000435; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 14:13:24 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2007 14:13:24 -0500 From: Nicolas Williams Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/188 - GNU readline In-reply-to: <4612A57C.6050800@sun.com> To: Joseph Kowalski Cc: Casper.Dik@sun.com, Larry Lee , Bill Sommerfeld , Paul Jakma , Dermot McCluskey , John.Fischer@sun.com, psarc@sun.com Message-id: <20070403191323.GL28748@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1175609656.1365.33.camel@thunk> <200704031439.l33Edwcv016759@vaticaan.holland.sun.com> <1175616738.1001.7.camel@thunk> <461280A2.9010200@sun.com> <200704031631.l33GV42P021245@vaticaan.holland.sun.com> <461285E2.1030103@sun.com> <200704031843.l33IhZlY026750@vaticaan.holland.sun.com> <4612A57C.6050800@sun.com> X-Authentication-warning: binky.central.sun.com: nw141292 set sender to Nicolas.Williams@sun.com using -f User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.7i Status: RO Content-Length: 1391 Lines: 37 On Tue, Apr 03, 2007 at 09:05:32AM -1000, Joseph Kowalski wrote: > Casper.Dik@sun.com wrote: > >>If a GNU library contains GPL'd code, then clearly the GPL applies. > >> > > > >No, that's not what I said. > > > >What I said that: if a program *optionally* can use a GPL'ed library, > >then it falls under the GPL; at least, that has always been GNU > >claim wrt readline. > > > >So it's the use of the API, not the linking which is claimed to force > >the GPL. > > > That's a pretty strong claim which minimally will run into problems with > "prior art". > Has this claim ever been tested? In the AT&T/BSD cases? In general the attitude seems to be (what else can we say? uncertainty abounds) that linking is the issue, not use of the API. For example, if Sun were to ship a PAM module that is GPLed or uses a GPLDed library then all of libpam and Solaris PAM applications would be infected, even though the module in question is linked with via dlopen(3C). Customers, OTOH, can install such PAM modules without any problem. A better example would be one where the API itself was a GNU innovation -- does libedit derive from readline because it presents substantially the same API? Maybe, but glibc presents substantially a Unix API, so doesn't glibc infringe on AT&T copyrights? This is where the AT&T/BSD cases come in, though even then there will be uncertainty. Nico -- From sacadmin Tue Apr 3 12:20:35 2007 Received: from newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (newsunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.245]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l33JKZp6023140 for ; Tue, 3 Apr 2007 12:20:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l33JK3nH026654; Tue, 3 Apr 2007 13:20:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JFX00D03SD9BF00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 13:19:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com ([129.156.42.6]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JFX00AXPSD8M610@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 13:19:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from d1-emea-10.sun.com ([192.18.2.120]) by gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l33JJuP8018593; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 19:19:56 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-emea-10.sun.com by d1-emea-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JFX00A01RUFX500@d1-emea-10.sun.com> (original mail from Paul.Jakma@Sun.COM); Tue, 03 Apr 2007 20:19:56 +0100 (BST) Received: from dhcp-239-0.jakma.org (hibernia.jakma.org [212.17.55.49]) by d1-emea-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JFX00AAYSD5GH20@d1-emea-10.sun.com>; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 20:19:55 +0100 (BST) Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2007 20:19:51 +0100 (IST) From: Paul Jakma Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/188 - GNU readline In-reply-to: <200704031843.l33IhZlY026750@vaticaan.holland.sun.com> Sender: Paul.Jakma@Sun.COM To: Casper.Dik@Sun.COM Cc: Larry Lee , Bill Sommerfeld , Dermot McCluskey , Joseph Kowalski , John.Fischer@Sun.COM, psarc@Sun.COM Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1175107603.14534.57.camel@sr1-umpk-31> <460ACD42.4070504@sun.com> <460BFD06.7080604@Sun.COM> <460C0B23.5000305@sun.com> <46113B1E.1040103@Sun.COM> <4611500B.1090605@sun.com> <461238C3.7000209@Sun.COM> <1175609656.1365.33.camel@thunk> <200704031439.l33Edwcv016759@vaticaan.holland.sun.com> <1175616738.1001.7.camel@thunk> <461280A2.9010200@sun.com> <200704031631.l33GV42P021245@vaticaan.holland.sun.com> <461285E2.1030103@sun.com> <200704031843.l33IhZlY026750@vaticaan.holland.sun.com> Status: RO Content-Length: 2331 Lines: 56 On Tue, 3 Apr 2007, Casper.Dik@Sun.COM wrote: > What I said that: if a program *optionally* can use a GPL'ed library, > then it falls under the GPL; at least, that has always been GNU claim > wrt readline. I'm not sure 'optionally' correctly characterises the FSFs' view. E.g.: http://sourceware.org/ml/guile/1999-02/msg00151.html The term used is "Pre-suppose". If the application on the other hand somehow /optionally/ links, or if the API has become functional (from a copyright POV) then an application making use of the readline API no longer need pre-suppose that it must use GPLed code in order to run. > So it's the use of the API, not the linking which is claimed to force > the GPL. I have a suspicion such a claim would not be justified (under US copyright law anyway), and personally I can't imagine the FSF making such. The claim is slightly more subtle than that. Note that the facts on the ground have changed since the 90s. IFF the readline API is now, to some extent, generic - with multiple, compatible implementations - then writing to that API no longer pre-supposes that the FSF GPLed readline will be required. This must be the case, for otherwise: - NetBSD would be violating the GPL by distributing BSD licensed code linking to a BSD licensed implementation of the readline API - Which would imply the readline API itself, independent of implementation, is somehow licensed under the GPL - Which flies against existing US case law I think Ergo the claim must be absurd (whether it was made or not by the FSF being another question). To go slightly more on-topic: Bringing in libedit would be a good idea in theory. However, we would have to commit to fixing all libedit/readline compatibility problems in all software in all our consolidations, and try to get those changes accepted to any external projects, with the risk that we would have to carry those changes forever more.. If we don't commit to that, we'll end-up shipping readline anyway for some projects, rendering any libedit-compat work wasted. In which case we're better off just shipping a dynamic readline and eliminating multiple extant statically linked copies of it.. regards, -- Paul Jakma, Solaris Networking http://opensolaris.org/os/project/quagga tel: EMEA x19190 / +353 1 819 9190 From sacadmin Tue Apr 3 12:24:54 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l33JOrqs023439 for ; Tue, 3 Apr 2007 12:24:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l33JNlUJ017137; Wed, 4 Apr 2007 03:24:13 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JFX00I07SKC3O00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 12:24:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com ([129.146.17.59]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JFX00BTYSKCOQ50@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 12:24:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [129.150.12.53] (vpn-129-150-12-53.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.12.53]) by jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.0+Sun/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l33JO8RZ259436; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 12:24:10 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2007 09:23:40 -1000 From: Joseph Kowalski Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/188 - GNU readline In-reply-to: <4612A37F.7070308@sun.com> To: Mark Johnson Cc: Bill Sommerfeld , Dermot McCluskey , John.Fischer@sun.com, psarc@sun.com Message-id: <4612A9BC.4080105@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1175107603.14534.57.camel@sr1-umpk-31> <460ACD42.4070504@sun.com> <460BFD06.7080604@Sun.COM> <460C0B23.5000305@sun.com> <46113B1E.1040103@Sun.COM> <4611500B.1090605@sun.com> <461238C3.7000209@Sun.COM> <1175609656.1365.33.camel@thunk> <46126841.4010409@sun.com> <46129881.9040904@sun.com> <4612A37F.7070308@sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060925) Status: RO Content-Length: 2582 Lines: 63 Mark Johnson wrote: > > > Joseph Kowalski wrote: >> Mark Johnson wrote: >>> Extending the taxonomy seem appropriate. >> Its really a new Taxonomy. The effect of the license and the >> stability of the interface are orthogonal. > > That makes sense. > > >> I can see the levels of Viralness right now... > > :-) > > > I can't tell from your joke if you suggesting that > this is a bad idea.. In case you are :-) I am suggesting it is a terrible idea (sorry). If Sun gets into the business of publicly putting the various licenses into "bins", we are effectively giving legal advice to our customers. We don't want to go there. The most we could do would be to place an entry in the ATTRIBUTES section stating the specific license, but we can't editorialize in the least. I think this much would be good but I'm clue-challenged as to what legal would say (I am always clue-challenged about what legal would say). They might say "No Way!". They might insist upon it. > I think it would be wrong to say that Solaris cannot include > any GPL'd libraries. It seems some people are suggesting that. > That seems more of a policy/legal issue to me? Yes, it is a policy/legal issue. Its marginally an ARC issue. Circa 2000, there was a clear policy based on legal concerns to not include any GPL code. Period. The policy, based on legal issues, was nicely simple. The discussion we seem to be having is that since then the policies have become complicated. At one time, all such components had to go through legal review. The ARCs only job (as I recall) was to make sure that happened. > I also think it makes sense to tag any such libraries > so it's clear which libraries are GPL (or your viral license > of the week). Whether that's a new taxonomy or something > else doesn't matter to me. Tag? Yes, but nothing more than a reference that it has a license. > With the assumption that legal agrees that it's OK to include > this, what else needs to be done to get approval from the ARC? Well, with this assumption that legal says, "OK", I'd still like the discussion as to if this is the best way to provide readline functionality. If it is as Casper says, then it doesn't matter. If not, then I strongly believe an unencombered version is the right choice. I have to say, if the discussion leads to the above case, I will derail this, if only to write Advisory that I believe the wrong *business* choice is being made. As a project team you shouldn't have to worry about this (beyond it slowing approval down my a minimal amount of time - less than a week). - jek3 From sacadmin Tue Apr 3 12:25:49 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l33JPmGl023579 for ; Tue, 3 Apr 2007 12:25:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l33JOmLM017506; Wed, 4 Apr 2007 03:25:12 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JFX0090BSLYGY00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 12:25:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dm-holland-02.uk.sun.com ([129.156.101.225]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JFX0048GSLXGJ60@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 12:25:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vaticaan.holland.sun.com (vaticaan.Holland.Sun.COM [129.159.213.1]) by dm-holland-02.uk.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l33JP6e8020886; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 20:25:06 +0100 (BST) Received: from holland (room101 [129.159.248.23]) by vaticaan.holland.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l33JP66C028399; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 21:25:06 +0200 (MEST) Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2007 21:24:46 +0200 From: Casper.Dik@sun.com Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/188 - GNU readline In-reply-to: Sender: casper@holland.sun.com To: Paul Jakma Cc: Larry Lee , Bill Sommerfeld , Dermot McCluskey , Joseph Kowalski , John.Fischer@sun.com, psarc@sun.com Message-id: <200704031925.l33JP66C028399@vaticaan.holland.sun.com> Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1175107603.14534.57.camel@sr1-umpk-31> <460ACD42.4070504@sun.com> <460BFD06.7080604@Sun.COM> <460C0B23.5000305@sun.com> <46113B1E.1040103@Sun.COM> <4611500B.1090605@sun.com> <461238C3.7000209@Sun.COM> <1175609656.1365.33.camel@thunk> <200704031439.l33Edwcv016759@vaticaan.holland.sun.com> <1175616738.1001.7.camel@thunk> <461280A2.9010200@sun.com> <200704031631.l33GV42P021245@vaticaan.holland.sun.com> <461285E2.1030103@sun.com> <200704031843.l33IhZlY026750@vaticaan.holland.sun.com> Status: RO Content-Length: 677 Lines: 20 >This must be the case, for otherwise: > >- NetBSD would be violating the GPL by distributing BSD licensed code > linking to a BSD licensed implementation of the readline API > - Which would imply the readline API itself, independent of > implementation, is somehow licensed under the GPL > - Which flies against existing US case law I think Ah, no, but the argument goes something like "but there is (was) no such implementation therefor it can only be linked to our implementation therefor you must fall under the GPL. >Ergo the claim must be absurd (whether it was made or not by the FSF >being another question). Oh, that it most probably is .... Casper From sacadmin Tue Apr 3 12:35:17 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l33JZG37024302 for ; Tue, 3 Apr 2007 12:35:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l33JYYah020303; Wed, 4 Apr 2007 03:34:36 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JFX00J0DT1M2S00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 12:34:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com ([129.146.17.59]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JFX00BMBT1LOO70@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 12:34:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [129.150.12.53] (vpn-129-150-12-53.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.12.53]) by jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.0+Sun/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l33JYRO7261440; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 12:34:28 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2007 09:34:01 -1000 From: Joseph Kowalski Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/188 - GNU readline In-reply-to: To: Paul Jakma Cc: Casper.Dik@sun.com, Larry Lee , Bill Sommerfeld , Dermot McCluskey , John.Fischer@sun.com, psarc@sun.com Message-id: <4612AC29.60701@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1175107603.14534.57.camel@sr1-umpk-31> <460ACD42.4070504@sun.com> <460BFD06.7080604@Sun.COM> <460C0B23.5000305@sun.com> <46113B1E.1040103@Sun.COM> <4611500B.1090605@sun.com> <461238C3.7000209@Sun.COM> <1175609656.1365.33.camel@thunk> <200704031439.l33Edwcv016759@vaticaan.holland.sun.com> <1175616738.1001.7.camel@thunk> <461280A2.9010200@sun.com> <200704031631.l33GV42P021245@vaticaan.holland.sun.com> <461285E2.1030103@sun.com> <200704031843.l33IhZlY026750@vaticaan.holland.sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060925) Status: RO Content-Length: 1117 Lines: 25 Paul Jakma wrote: > To go slightly more on-topic: > > Bringing in libedit would be a good idea in theory. However, we would > have to commit to fixing all libedit/readline compatibility problems > in all software in all our consolidations, and try to get those > changes accepted to any external projects, with the risk that we would > have to carry those changes forever more. Uh, I think we would change libed to remove the incompatibilities **assuming** there were any. Remember, for all we know, its perfect. We do have that data point that it seems to satisfy NetBSD users. (Although an interesting question would be what to call the library? Under the BSD license, I think we would call it libc.) > If we don't commit to that, we'll end-up shipping readline anyway for > some projects, rendering any libedit-compat work wasted. In which case > we're better off just shipping a dynamic readline and eliminating > multiple extant statically linked copies of it.. Its all cost/benefit. If we can't make it public, I can't say I see much gain in eliminating the multiple internal copies. - jek3 From sacadmin Tue Apr 3 12:37:20 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l33JbJ1l024315 for ; Tue, 3 Apr 2007 12:37:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l33Jag8t001959; Tue, 3 Apr 2007 20:36:46 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JFX00E05T5AYX00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 13:36:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com ([129.156.42.6]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JFX00AZ0T58M520@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 13:36:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: from d1-emea-10.sun.com ([192.18.2.120]) by gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l33JaiPn019079; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 19:36:44 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-emea-10.sun.com by d1-emea-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JFX00F01T2OVC00@d1-emea-10.sun.com> (original mail from Paul.Jakma@Sun.COM); Tue, 03 Apr 2007 20:36:44 +0100 (BST) Received: from dhcp-239-0.jakma.org (hibernia.jakma.org [212.17.55.49]) by d1-emea-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JFX00ABDT56GH20@d1-emea-10.sun.com>; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 20:36:44 +0100 (BST) Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2007 20:36:40 +0100 (IST) From: Paul Jakma Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/188 - GNU readline In-reply-to: <200704031925.l33JP66C028399@vaticaan.holland.sun.com> Sender: Paul.Jakma@sun.com To: Casper.Dik@sun.com Cc: Larry Lee , Bill Sommerfeld , Dermot McCluskey , Joseph Kowalski , John.Fischer@sun.com, psarc@sun.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1175107603.14534.57.camel@sr1-umpk-31> <460ACD42.4070504@sun.com> <460BFD06.7080604@Sun.COM> <460C0B23.5000305@sun.com> <46113B1E.1040103@Sun.COM> <4611500B.1090605@sun.com> <461238C3.7000209@Sun.COM> <1175609656.1365.33.camel@thunk> <200704031439.l33Edwcv016759@vaticaan.holland.sun.com> <1175616738.1001.7.camel@thunk> <461280A2.9010200@sun.com> <200704031631.l33GV42P021245@vaticaan.holland.sun.com> <461285E2.1030103@sun.com> <200704031843.l33IhZlY026750@vaticaan.holland.sun.com> <200704031925.l33JP66C028399@vaticaan.holland.sun.com> Status: RO Content-Length: 1491 Lines: 38 On Tue, 3 Apr 2007, Casper.Dik@Sun.COM wrote: >> This must be the case, for otherwise: >> >> - NetBSD would be violating the GPL by distributing BSD licensed code >> linking to a BSD licensed implementation of the readline API >> - Which would imply the readline API itself, independent of >> implementation, is somehow licensed under the GPL >> - Which flies against existing US case law I think > > > Ah, no, but the argument goes something like "but there is (was) no > such implementation therefor it can only be linked to our > implementation therefor you must fall under the GPL Again, I'd doubt the FSF would lay claim to have copyright on an /interface/... How did RMS and the FSF start out after all? :) If their claim was that, in the 90s, coding to the readline API showed definite intent of using specific GPL code, and hence made such code subject to the GPL, then that seems a reasonable opinion for the FSF to have held. Certainly reasonable enough that the FSF were able to convince at least one copyright holder of its merit[1].. The facts have changed since then, presuming libedit is compatible enough. Have the FSF said anything about readline licensing more recently? Is libedit a 'cp && nigthtly' replacement, does anyone know? :) 1. Were any of those cases corporations with therefore presumably good legal counsel? regards, -- Paul Jakma, Solaris Networking http://opensolaris.org/os/project/quagga tel: EMEA x19190 / +353 1 819 9190 From sacadmin Tue Apr 3 12:41:27 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l33JfQRb024451 for ; Tue, 3 Apr 2007 12:41:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l33Jeh5H003123; Tue, 3 Apr 2007 20:40:53 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JFX00F03TC3BA00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 13:40:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com ([129.156.42.5]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JFX00AOWTC2M830@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 13:40:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from d1-emea-10.sun.com (d1-emea-10.sun.com [192.18.2.120]) by gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l33Jencd018545; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 19:40:49 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-emea-10.sun.com by d1-emea-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JFX00F01T2OVC00@d1-emea-10.sun.com> (original mail from Paul.Jakma@Sun.COM); Tue, 03 Apr 2007 20:40:49 +0100 (BST) Received: from dhcp-239-0.jakma.org (hibernia.jakma.org [212.17.55.49]) by d1-emea-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JFX00ABHTBZGH20@d1-emea-10.sun.com>; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 20:40:49 +0100 (BST) Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2007 20:40:45 +0100 (IST) From: Paul Jakma Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/188 - GNU readline In-reply-to: Sender: Paul.Jakma@sun.com To: Casper.Dik@sun.com Cc: Larry Lee , Bill Sommerfeld , Dermot McCluskey , Joseph Kowalski , John.Fischer@sun.com, psarc@sun.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1175107603.14534.57.camel@sr1-umpk-31> <460ACD42.4070504@sun.com> <460BFD06.7080604@Sun.COM> <460C0B23.5000305@sun.com> <46113B1E.1040103@Sun.COM> <4611500B.1090605@sun.com> <461238C3.7000209@Sun.COM> <1175609656.1365.33.camel@thunk> <200704031439.l33Edwcv016759@vaticaan.holland.sun.com> <1175616738.1001.7.camel@thunk> <461280A2.9010200@sun.com> <200704031631.l33GV42P021245@vaticaan.holland.sun.com> <461285E2.1030103@sun.com> <200704031843.l33IhZlY026750@vaticaan.holland.sun.com> Status: RO Content-Length: 735 Lines: 25 On Tue, 3 Apr 2007, Paul Jakma wrote: > On Tue, 3 Apr 2007, Casper.Dik@Sun.COM wrote: > >> What I said that: if a program *optionally* can use a GPL'ed library, then >> it falls under the GPL; at least, that has always been GNU claim wrt >> readline. > > I'm not sure 'optionally' correctly characterises the FSFs' view. E.g.: > > http://sourceware.org/ml/guile/1999-02/msg00151.html Even more clear: http://sourceware.org/ml/guile/1999-02/msg00140.html Note that Guile is/was an FSF project. According to RMS, giving the *user* the /option/ for guile to use readline with their programme would be ok. regards, -- Paul Jakma, Solaris Networking http://opensolaris.org/os/project/quagga tel: EMEA x19190 / +353 1 819 9190 From sacadmin Tue Apr 3 12:46:18 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l33JkISL024604 for ; Tue, 3 Apr 2007 12:46:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l33JjbUj004824; Tue, 3 Apr 2007 20:45:41 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JFX00F03TK5UF00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 13:45:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: from binky.central.sun.com ([129.153.128.104]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JFX00ALJTK4LX30@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 13:45:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from binky.central.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by binky.central.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l33Jin4v000465; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 14:44:49 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from nw141292@localhost) by binky.central.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/Submit) id l33Jinwm000464; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 14:44:49 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2007 14:44:49 -0500 From: Nicolas Williams Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/188 - GNU readline In-reply-to: <4612A9BC.4080105@sun.com> To: Joseph Kowalski Cc: Mark Johnson , Bill Sommerfeld , Dermot McCluskey , John.Fischer@sun.com, psarc@sun.com Message-id: <20070403194449.GN28748@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <460BFD06.7080604@Sun.COM> <460C0B23.5000305@sun.com> <46113B1E.1040103@Sun.COM> <4611500B.1090605@sun.com> <461238C3.7000209@Sun.COM> <1175609656.1365.33.camel@thunk> <46126841.4010409@sun.com> <46129881.9040904@sun.com> <4612A37F.7070308@sun.com> <4612A9BC.4080105@sun.com> X-Authentication-warning: binky.central.sun.com: nw141292 set sender to Nicolas.Williams@sun.com using -f User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.7i Status: RO Content-Length: 391 Lines: 14 On Tue, Apr 03, 2007 at 09:23:40AM -1000, Joseph Kowalski wrote: > The most we could do would be to place an entry in the > ATTRIBUTES section stating the specific license, but we How about an ELF attribute, so the linker could help enforce license requirements: ld -B CDDL -B BSD -B MPL ... -lreadline error: readline is licensed under GPL; GPL was not specifically allowed :) Nico -- From sacadmin Tue Apr 3 13:04:43 2007 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l33K4hIr025479 for ; Tue, 3 Apr 2007 13:04:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l33K47wj011161; Tue, 3 Apr 2007 13:04:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JFX00L09UEVW900@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 13:04:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from binky.central.sun.com ([129.153.128.104]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JFX00B24UEUOOA0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 13:04:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from binky.central.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by binky.central.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l33K3FNt000483; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 15:03:15 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from nw141292@localhost) by binky.central.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/Submit) id l33K3F7R000482; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 15:03:15 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2007 15:03:15 -0500 From: Nicolas Williams Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/188 - GNU readline In-reply-to: To: Paul Jakma Cc: Casper.Dik@sun.com, Larry Lee , Bill Sommerfeld , Dermot McCluskey , Joseph Kowalski , John.Fischer@sun.com, psarc@sun.com Message-id: <20070403200314.GP28748@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200704031439.l33Edwcv016759@vaticaan.holland.sun.com> <1175616738.1001.7.camel@thunk> <461280A2.9010200@sun.com> <200704031631.l33GV42P021245@vaticaan.holland.sun.com> <461285E2.1030103@sun.com> <200704031843.l33IhZlY026750@vaticaan.holland.sun.com> X-Authentication-warning: binky.central.sun.com: nw141292 set sender to Nicolas.Williams@sun.com using -f User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.7i Status: RO Content-Length: 1088 Lines: 34 On Tue, Apr 03, 2007 at 08:40:45PM +0100, Paul Jakma wrote: > On Tue, 3 Apr 2007, Paul Jakma wrote: > > >On Tue, 3 Apr 2007, Casper.Dik@Sun.COM wrote: > > > >>What I said that: if a program *optionally* can use a GPL'ed library, > >>then it falls under the GPL; at least, that has always been GNU claim wrt > >>readline. > > > >I'm not sure 'optionally' correctly characterises the FSFs' view. E.g.: > > > > http://sourceware.org/ml/guile/1999-02/msg00151.html > > Even more clear: > > http://sourceware.org/ml/guile/1999-02/msg00140.html Less clear: http://sourceware.org/ml/guile/1999-02/msg00153.html and RMS' follow-up: http://sourceware.org/ml/guile/1999-02/msg00176.html That sub-thread was about dlopen() and ends right there. But that was back in 1999. I've seen other posts that seem to indicate that some ppl believe that dynamic linking via dlopen() is covered provided that the same entity distributes both, the caller and at least one GPL'ed callee that might under some circumstances be called. I.e., infection via open SPIs like PAM's is feasible. Nico -- From sacadmin Tue Apr 3 13:19:46 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l33KJkBZ026117 for ; Tue, 3 Apr 2007 13:19:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l33KIlqR015560; Tue, 3 Apr 2007 21:19:05 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JFX00001V3S0B00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 13:19:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com ([129.148.174.143]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JFX00BPHV3SOOB0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 13:19:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.0+Sun/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l33KJ3iP012751; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 16:19:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from carlsonj@localhost) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.0+Sun/8.14.0/Submit) id l33KJ3sE012748; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 16:19:03 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2007 16:19:03 -0400 From: James Carlson Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/188 - GNU readline In-reply-to: <20070403194449.GN28748@Sun.COM> To: Nicolas Williams Cc: Mark Johnson , Dermot McCluskey , John.Fischer@sun.com, psarc@sun.com Message-id: <17938.46775.724648.284111@gargle.gargle.HOWL> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: VM 7.01 under Emacs 21.3.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <460BFD06.7080604@Sun.COM> <460C0B23.5000305@sun.com> <46113B1E.1040103@Sun.COM> <4611500B.1090605@sun.com> <461238C3.7000209@Sun.COM> <1175609656.1365.33.camel@thunk> <46126841.4010409@sun.com> <46129881.9040904@sun.com> <4612A37F.7070308@sun.com> <4612A9BC.4080105@sun.com> <20070403194449.GN28748@Sun.COM> Status: RO Content-Length: 660 Lines: 17 Nicolas Williams writes: > On Tue, Apr 03, 2007 at 09:23:40AM -1000, Joseph Kowalski wrote: > > The most we could do would be to place an entry in the > > ATTRIBUTES section stating the specific license, but we > > How about an ELF attribute, so the linker could help enforce license > requirements: > > ld -B CDDL -B BSD -B MPL ... -lreadline > error: readline is licensed under GPL; GPL was not specifically allowed Wretched. :-/ -- James Carlson, Solaris Networking Sun Microsystems / 1 Network Drive 71.232W Vox +1 781 442 2084 MS UBUR02-212 / Burlington MA 01803-2757 42.496N Fax +1 781 442 1677 From sacadmin Tue Apr 3 13:25:51 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l33KPoj8026160 for ; Tue, 3 Apr 2007 13:25:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l33KPC1P006579; Wed, 4 Apr 2007 04:25:14 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JFX00007VE1K300@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 13:25:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eastmail2bur.East.Sun.COM ([129.148.13.40]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JFX00BZXVE0OVC0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 13:25:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thunk.east.sun.com (thunk.East.Sun.COM [129.148.174.66]) by eastmail2bur.East.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l33KP4cD020116; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 16:25:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [IPv6:::1] (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by thunk.east.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l33KP4YW002902; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 16:25:04 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2007 16:25:02 -0400 From: Bill Sommerfeld Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/188 - GNU readline In-reply-to: <20070403200314.GP28748@Sun.COM> To: Nicolas Williams Cc: Paul Jakma , Casper.Dik@sun.com, Larry Lee , Dermot McCluskey , Joseph Kowalski , John.Fischer@sun.com, psarc@sun.com Message-id: <1175631902.1001.61.camel@thunk> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.8.1.1 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200704031439.l33Edwcv016759@vaticaan.holland.sun.com> <1175616738.1001.7.camel@thunk> <461280A2.9010200@sun.com> <200704031631.l33GV42P021245@vaticaan.holland.sun.com> <461285E2.1030103@sun.com> <200704031843.l33IhZlY026750@vaticaan.holland.sun.com> <20070403200314.GP28748@Sun.COM> Status: RO Content-Length: 298 Lines: 9 On Tue, 2007-04-03 at 15:03 -0500, Nicolas Williams wrote: > I.e., infection via open SPIs like PAM's is feasible. I don't believe it's helpful to use words like "infection" or "viral" in discussions of this interpretation of the GPL; it creates a significant risk of inflaming the discussion. From sacadmin Tue Apr 3 13:30:02 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l33KU17v026246 for ; Tue, 3 Apr 2007 13:30:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l33KTLwT019292; Tue, 3 Apr 2007 21:29:25 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JFX00J29VL0Q600@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 14:29:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from binky.central.sun.com ([129.153.128.104]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JFX00A4WVKWM260@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 14:29:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from binky.central.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by binky.central.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l33KSTWm000528; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 15:28:29 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from nw141292@localhost) by binky.central.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/Submit) id l33KSTrX000527; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 15:28:29 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2007 15:28:29 -0500 From: Nicolas Williams Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/188 - GNU readline In-reply-to: <1175631902.1001.61.camel@thunk> To: Bill Sommerfeld Cc: Paul Jakma , Casper.Dik@sun.com, Larry Lee , Dermot McCluskey , Joseph Kowalski , John.Fischer@sun.com, psarc@sun.com Message-id: <20070403202828.GT28748@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1175616738.1001.7.camel@thunk> <461280A2.9010200@sun.com> <200704031631.l33GV42P021245@vaticaan.holland.sun.com> <461285E2.1030103@sun.com> <200704031843.l33IhZlY026750@vaticaan.holland.sun.com> <20070403200314.GP28748@Sun.COM> <1175631902.1001.61.camel@thunk> X-Authentication-warning: binky.central.sun.com: nw141292 set sender to Nicolas.Williams@sun.com using -f User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.7i Status: RO Content-Length: 449 Lines: 10 On Tue, Apr 03, 2007 at 04:25:02PM -0400, Bill Sommerfeld wrote: > On Tue, 2007-04-03 at 15:03 -0500, Nicolas Williams wrote: > > I.e., infection via open SPIs like PAM's is feasible. > > I don't believe it's helpful to use words like "infection" or "viral" in > discussions of this interpretation of the GPL; it creates a significant > risk of inflaming the discussion. I was not actually stating that this is the case -- the context shows that. From sacadmin Tue Apr 3 17:03:07 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l34036aj005771 for ; Tue, 3 Apr 2007 17:03:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l3402Ufa008470; Wed, 4 Apr 2007 01:02:31 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JFY00I0D5G4E600@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 18:02:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: from eastmail2bur.East.Sun.COM ([129.148.13.40]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JFY0083I5G4BDA0@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 18:02:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: from thunk.east.sun.com (thunk.East.Sun.COM [129.148.174.66]) by eastmail2bur.East.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l3402O3V021566; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 20:02:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [IPv6:::1] (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by thunk.east.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l3402Oq3007189; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 20:02:24 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2007 20:02:23 -0400 From: Bill Sommerfeld Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/188 - GNU readline In-reply-to: <461285E2.1030103@sun.com> To: Larry Lee Cc: Casper.Dik@sun.com, Paul Jakma , Dermot McCluskey , Joseph Kowalski , John.Fischer@sun.com, psarc@sun.com Message-id: <1175644943.1001.152.camel@thunk> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.8.1.1 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1175107603.14534.57.camel@sr1-umpk-31> <460ACD42.4070504@sun.com> <460BFD06.7080604@Sun.COM> <460C0B23.5000305@sun.com> <46113B1E.1040103@Sun.COM> <4611500B.1090605@sun.com> <461238C3.7000209@Sun.COM> <1175609656.1365.33.camel@thunk> <200704031439.l33Edwcv016759@vaticaan.holland.sun.com> <1175616738.1001.7.camel@thunk> <461280A2.9010200@sun.com> <200704031631.l33GV42P021245@vaticaan.holland.sun.com> <461285E2.1030103@sun.com> Status: RO Content-Length: 538 Lines: 16 On Tue, 2007-04-03 at 09:50 -0700, Larry Lee wrote: > The point that I was asking about is if an API could be copyrighted. > I never thought so, but that seems to be the issue here, so I'm asking. That's a question of copyright law which we are not competant to evaluate. A few minutes searching on google will turn up postings in mail archives containing assertions from key members of FSF that any program linked with readline is a derivative work of readline and so must be licensed under the GPL or a GPL-compatible license. From sacadmin Tue Apr 3 18:41:10 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l341f9CW007276 for ; Tue, 3 Apr 2007 18:41:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l341eUPL026463; Wed, 4 Apr 2007 09:40:34 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JFY005019ZLNN00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 19:40:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: from nwk-ea-fw-1.sun.com ([10.4.134.5]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JFY003TT9ZKT200@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 19:40:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: from d1-sfbay-09.sun.com ([192.18.39.119]) by nwk-ea-fw-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l341eW6A029529; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 18:40:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-sfbay-09.sun.com by d1-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JFY00L019WUEL00@d1-sfbay-09.sun.com> (original mail from Lawrence.Lee@Sun.COM); Tue, 03 Apr 2007 18:40:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.9.61.208] by d1-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JFY007ON9ZJ27BA@d1-sfbay-09.sun.com>; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 18:40:32 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2007 18:40:30 -0700 From: Larry Lee Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/188 - GNU readline In-reply-to: <1175644943.1001.152.camel@thunk> Sender: Lawrence.Lee@sun.com To: Bill Sommerfeld Cc: Casper.Dik@sun.com, Paul Jakma , Dermot McCluskey , Joseph Kowalski , John.Fischer@sun.com, psarc@sun.com Message-id: <4613020E.7030506@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1175107603.14534.57.camel@sr1-umpk-31> <460ACD42.4070504@sun.com> <460BFD06.7080604@Sun.COM> <460C0B23.5000305@sun.com> <46113B1E.1040103@Sun.COM> <4611500B.1090605@sun.com> <461238C3.7000209@Sun.COM> <1175609656.1365.33.camel@thunk> <200704031439.l33Edwcv016759@vaticaan.holland.sun.com> <1175616738.1001.7.camel@thunk> <461280A2.9010200@sun.com> <200704031631.l33GV42P021245@vaticaan.holland.sun.com> <461285E2.1030103@sun.com> <1175644943.1001.152.camel@thunk> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060828) Status: RO Content-Length: 2878 Lines: 78 Bill Sommerfeld wrote: > On Tue, 2007-04-03 at 09:50 -0700, Larry Lee wrote: > >> The point that I was asking about is if an API could be copyrighted. >> I never thought so, but that seems to be the issue here, so I'm asking. >> > > That's a question of copyright law which we are not competant to > evaluate. > Certainly it needs to be reviewed by our lawyers on the basis of a likely challenge but I hope that copyright law has not gotten so esoteric that only lawyers can understand it. > A few minutes searching on google will turn up postings in mail archives > containing assertions from key members of FSF that any program linked > with readline is a derivative work of readline and so must be licensed > under the GPL or a GPL-compatible license. > The FSF can assert whatever they want, it's copyright law that matters. If we aren't linked to GPL'd code, then the FSF can't say a thing. As I viewed the discussion this morning it seemed to me (YMMV), that everyone just assumed that an application making a call to readline was automatically GPL'd. And that we are so afraid of FSF either suing us or bashing us in the public forums that we don't dare even consider challenging that notion. IMO that's bullshit, we sacrifice our rights and submit to the FSF without even considering the option and that's why I asked the questions that I did. It's only if an application specifically links to the GNU libreadline (or whatever GNU library it's in) that the application would link to a GPL'd code. This is a decision that the application programmer would make when he creates his makefile. One way, by including -lreadline in the makefile the application gets a readline that fully conforms to the GNU implementation, and the price is that the application must be distributed under the GPL. The other way, if we put our readline into both our libc and the GNU libc that we distribute, then an application would link to our readline by default. If we want the application programmer to consciously make the decision, then we put our readline implementation into a library called libNOGPLreadline and force the application programmer to include a -lNOGPLreadline in the Makefile. Since we distribute all our source , the FSF can examine the code to their hearts content but it will be clear that we are not using their code with the GPL encumbrances. The only issue that I can see is that if we release our source code under an license that is incompatible with the GPL (CDDL for example) and someone else decides to modify our Makefile to include the GNU libreadline and then redistributes the binary, then that someone else will be in the awkward position of being in breach of either the CDDL or the GPL. That is not Sun's problem per se. We ought to document this so we don't leave beartraps for the user to step in. From sacadmin Tue Apr 3 19:16:27 2007 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l342GR0R007952 for ; Tue, 3 Apr 2007 19:16:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l342Fpwx003608; Tue, 3 Apr 2007 19:15:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JFY00903BMEDF00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 20:15:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com ([129.146.17.59]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JFY003XDBMET720@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 20:15:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [129.150.12.53] (vpn-129-150-12-53.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.12.53]) by jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.0+Sun/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l342Fm7g321252; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 19:15:48 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2007 16:15:20 -1000 From: Joseph Kowalski Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/188 - GNU readline In-reply-to: <4613020E.7030506@sun.com> To: Larry Lee Cc: Bill Sommerfeld , Casper.Dik@sun.com, Paul Jakma , Dermot McCluskey , John.Fischer@sun.com, psarc@sun.com Message-id: <46130A38.3080403@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1175107603.14534.57.camel@sr1-umpk-31> <460ACD42.4070504@sun.com> <460BFD06.7080604@Sun.COM> <460C0B23.5000305@sun.com> <46113B1E.1040103@Sun.COM> <4611500B.1090605@sun.com> <461238C3.7000209@Sun.COM> <1175609656.1365.33.camel@thunk> <200704031439.l33Edwcv016759@vaticaan.holland.sun.com> <1175616738.1001.7.camel@thunk> <461280A2.9010200@sun.com> <200704031631.l33GV42P021245@vaticaan.holland.sun.com> <461285E2.1030103@sun.com> <1175644943.1001.152.camel@thunk> <4613020E.7030506@sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060925) Status: RO Content-Length: 1135 Lines: 26 Larry Lee wrote: > Certainly it needs to be reviewed by our lawyers on the basis of a > likely challenge > but I hope that copyright law has not gotten so esoteric that only > lawyers can understand it. Doesn't matter. Sun Policy requires the review. Get over it. >> A few minutes searching on google will turn up postings in mail archives >> containing assertions from key members of FSF that any program linked >> with readline is a derivative work of readline and so must be licensed >> under the GPL or a GPL-compatible license. >> > The FSF can assert whatever they want, it's copyright law that matters. > If we aren't linked to GPL'd code, then the FSF can't say a thing. Well, I guess either you, they or both don't understand copyright law. 8^) Then again, I'll assert that it doesn't matter. The press associated with a FSF suit is probably a bigger issue than the suit. > IMO that's bullshit, we sacrifice our rights and submit to the FSF > without even > considering the option and that's why I asked the questions that I did. That's why we need legal's opinion. The rest of us are just conjecturing. - jek3 From sacadmin Wed Apr 4 05:31:17 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l34CVGgm016562 for ; Wed, 4 Apr 2007 05:31:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l34CUeVB016011; Wed, 4 Apr 2007 13:30:42 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JFZ00N0B4345600@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 04 Apr 2007 06:30:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com ([129.156.42.5]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JFZ00MB6432S500@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 04 Apr 2007 06:30:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from d1-emea-09.sun.com (d1-emea-09.sun.com [192.18.2.119]) by gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l34CUbof022666; Wed, 04 Apr 2007 12:30:37 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-emea-09.sun.com by d1-emea-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JFZ002013N4EP00@d1-emea-09.sun.com> (original mail from Dermot.McCluskey@Sun.COM); Wed, 04 Apr 2007 13:30:37 +0100 (BST) Received: from [129.156.220.16] by d1-emea-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JFZ00H3842Z0VYM@d1-emea-09.sun.com>; Wed, 04 Apr 2007 13:30:36 +0100 (BST) Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2007 13:30:35 +0100 From: Dermot McCluskey Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/188 - GNU readline In-reply-to: <46129EC0.4000102@sun.com> Sender: Dermot.McCluskey@sun.com To: Joseph Kowalski , psarc@sun.com Cc: Bill Sommerfeld , Paul Jakma , Casper.Dik@sun.com, John.Fischer@sun.com Message-id: <46139A6B.1020502@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en-us, en X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1175107603.14534.57.camel@sr1-umpk-31> <460ACD42.4070504@sun.com> <460BFD06.7080604@Sun.COM> <460C0B23.5000305@sun.com> <46113B1E.1040103@Sun.COM> <4611500B.1090605@sun.com> <461238C3.7000209@Sun.COM> <1175609656.1365.33.camel@thunk> <200704031439.l33Edwcv016759@vaticaan.holland.sun.com> <1175616738.1001.7.camel@thunk> <46129938.6020406@sun.com> <1175625042.1001.32.camel@thunk> <46129EC0.4000102@sun.com> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; SunOS sun4u; en-US; rv:1.7) Gecko/20060120 Status: RO Content-Length: 774 Lines: 23 Joseph Kowalski wrote On 04/03/07 19:36,: > I'm still *strongly* pushing for your suggestion of NetBSD or Lee's > suggestion > of a "clean room". > > What's better: 100% compatible which few can use or 99.44% compatible > which all can use. I believe in practice that even if we provide a different, unencumbered but compatible library such as libedit, that the existing and planned users of readline (MySQL, libvirt, etc) will take the easier option of statically linking a private copy of readline. Licensing has not been an issue for these projects as they are already GPL. This case assumes Legal approval of the new GPL/LGPL guidelines, such that there will be no (self-imposed) legal bar on providing GPL libraries in the default path or elsewhere. - Dermot From sacadmin Wed Apr 4 07:31:38 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l34EVbYn018001 for ; Wed, 4 Apr 2007 07:31:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l34EUsu9026983; Wed, 4 Apr 2007 22:31:02 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JFZ00K0H9NNEQ00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 04 Apr 2007 07:30:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-ea-fw-1.sun.com ([10.4.134.6]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JFZ00GQY9NM8N80@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 04 Apr 2007 07:30:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d1-sfbay-09.sun.com ([192.18.39.119]) by nwk-ea-fw-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l34EUvfU006728; Wed, 04 Apr 2007 07:30:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-sfbay-09.sun.com by d1-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JFZ00D019LU8C00@d1-sfbay-09.sun.com> (original mail from Ed.Gould@Sun.COM); Wed, 04 Apr 2007 07:30:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.0.10] ([75.61.76.81]) by d1-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JFZ007OJ9NL2B0Z@d1-sfbay-09.sun.com>; Wed, 04 Apr 2007 07:30:57 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2007 07:30:57 -0700 From: Ed Gould Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/188 - GNU readline In-reply-to: <46139A6B.1020502@Sun.COM> Sender: Ed.Gould@sun.com To: Dermot McCluskey Cc: Paul Jakma , Casper.Dik@sun.com, John.Fischer@sun.com, Bill Sommerfeld , psarc@sun.com, Joseph Kowalski Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.624) Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1175107603.14534.57.camel@sr1-umpk-31> <460ACD42.4070504@sun.com> <460BFD06.7080604@Sun.COM> <460C0B23.5000305@sun.com> <46113B1E.1040103@Sun.COM> <4611500B.1090605@sun.com> <461238C3.7000209@Sun.COM> <1175609656.1365.33.camel@thunk> <200704031439.l33Edwcv016759@vaticaan.holland.sun.com> <1175616738.1001.7.camel@thunk> <46129938.6020406@sun.com> <1175625042.1001.32.camel@thunk> <46129EC0.4000102@sun.com> <46139A6B.1020502@Sun.COM> Status: RO Content-Length: 454 Lines: 11 On Apr 4, 2007, at 5:30, Dermot McCluskey wrote: > This case assumes Legal approval of the new GPL/LGPL guidelines, > such that there will be no (self-imposed) legal bar on providing GPL > libraries in the default path or elsewhere. It seems clear to me that we need to formulate a specific policy, in coordination with Legal, on the import of GPL libraries. I don't think we can decide what the policy should be without consulting a lawyer. --Ed From sacadmin Wed Apr 4 08:14:18 2007 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l34FEIr9018822 for ; Wed, 4 Apr 2007 08:14:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l34FDich001312; Wed, 4 Apr 2007 08:13:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JFZ00K5DBMW6T00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 04 Apr 2007 08:13:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eastmail2bur.East.Sun.COM ([129.148.13.40]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JFZ00EUDBMU0DC0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 04 Apr 2007 08:13:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thunk.east.sun.com (thunk.East.Sun.COM [129.148.174.66]) by eastmail2bur.East.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l34FDc32004386; Wed, 04 Apr 2007 11:13:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [IPv6:::1] (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by thunk.east.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l34FDc2D009853; Wed, 04 Apr 2007 11:13:38 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2007 11:13:37 -0400 From: Bill Sommerfeld Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/188 - GNU readline In-reply-to: <46130A38.3080403@sun.com> To: Joseph Kowalski Cc: Larry Lee , casper.dik@sun.com, Paul Jakma , Dermot McCluskey , john.fischer@sun.com, psarc@sun.com Message-id: <1175699617.9780.5.camel@thunk> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.8.1.1 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1175107603.14534.57.camel@sr1-umpk-31> <460ACD42.4070504@sun.com> <460BFD06.7080604@Sun.COM> <460C0B23.5000305@sun.com> <46113B1E.1040103@Sun.COM> <4611500B.1090605@sun.com> <461238C3.7000209@Sun.COM> <1175609656.1365.33.camel@thunk> <200704031439.l33Edwcv016759@vaticaan.holland.sun.com> <1175616738.1001.7.camel@thunk> <461280A2.9010200@sun.com> <200704031631.l33GV42P021245@vaticaan.holland.sun.com> <461285E2.1030103@sun.com> <1175644943.1001.152.camel@thunk> <4613020E.7030506@sun.com> <46130A38.3080403@sun.com> Status: RO Content-Length: 494 Lines: 15 On Tue, 2007-04-03 at 16:15 -1000, Joseph Kowalski wrote: > Then again, I'll assert that it doesn't matter. The press associated with > a FSF suit is probably a bigger issue than the suit. indeed. Another avenue would be to pursue this via contacts we have with FSF. Most of what people have to go on is 5+-year old mailing list posts from key members of the FSF. Simon Phipps has mentioned talking to them recently on a couple occasions on posts to opensolaris lists. - Bill From sacadmin Wed Apr 4 08:55:35 2007 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l34FtZRL019882 for ; Wed, 4 Apr 2007 08:55:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l34FswYv012890; Wed, 4 Apr 2007 08:55:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JFZ0000LDJNQN00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 04 Apr 2007 08:54:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from binky.central.sun.com ([129.153.128.104]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JFZ000T7DJMFC00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 04 Apr 2007 08:54:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from binky.central.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by binky.central.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l34Fs88m001460; Wed, 04 Apr 2007 10:54:08 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from nw141292@localhost) by binky.central.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/Submit) id l34Fs8tC001459; Wed, 04 Apr 2007 10:54:08 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2007 10:54:08 -0500 From: Nicolas Williams Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/188 - GNU readline In-reply-to: <17938.46775.724648.284111@gargle.gargle.HOWL> To: James Carlson Cc: Mark Johnson , Dermot McCluskey , John.Fischer@sun.com, psarc@sun.com Message-id: <20070404155407.GI28748@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <46113B1E.1040103@Sun.COM> <4611500B.1090605@sun.com> <461238C3.7000209@Sun.COM> <1175609656.1365.33.camel@thunk> <46126841.4010409@sun.com> <46129881.9040904@sun.com> <4612A37F.7070308@sun.com> <4612A9BC.4080105@sun.com> <20070403194449.GN28748@Sun.COM> <17938.46775.724648.284111@gargle.gargle.HOWL> X-Authentication-warning: binky.central.sun.com: nw141292 set sender to Nicolas.Williams@sun.com using -f User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.7i Status: RO Content-Length: 1030 Lines: 26 On Tue, Apr 03, 2007 at 04:19:03PM -0400, James Carlson wrote: > Nicolas Williams writes: > > On Tue, Apr 03, 2007 at 09:23:40AM -1000, Joseph Kowalski wrote: > > > The most we could do would be to place an entry in the > > > ATTRIBUTES section stating the specific license, but we > > > > How about an ELF attribute, so the linker could help enforce license > > requirements: > > > > ld -B CDDL -B BSD -B MPL ... -lreadline > > error: readline is licensed under GPL; GPL was not specifically allowed > > Wretched. :-/ Maybe, but if use restrictions such as GPL's on linking are valid or accepted as such (whether they derive from copyright on an API or whether it's just FUD), then compilation/run-time support for enforcing such restrictions could be useful in keeping _us_ out of trouble. Alternatively ON's nightly could check that nothing links to GPLed anything in ON that isn't on a white list. Repeat for each consolidation (other than SFW, unless multiple license [in]compatibility issues arise in SFW). Nico -- From sacadmin Wed Apr 4 09:06:55 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l34G6sxh019922 for ; Wed, 4 Apr 2007 09:06:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l34G6BnH029033; Wed, 4 Apr 2007 17:06:17 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JFZ00K01E2FYI00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 04 Apr 2007 10:06:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com ([129.148.174.143]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JFZ00MZ6E2ERVD0@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 04 Apr 2007 10:06:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.0+Sun/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l34G6EhT015868; Wed, 04 Apr 2007 12:06:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from carlsonj@localhost) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.0+Sun/8.14.0/Submit) id l34G6EZO015865; Wed, 04 Apr 2007 12:06:14 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2007 12:06:14 -0400 From: James Carlson Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/188 - GNU readline In-reply-to: <20070404155407.GI28748@Sun.COM> To: Nicolas Williams Cc: Mark Johnson , Dermot McCluskey , John.Fischer@sun.com, psarc@sun.com Message-id: <17939.52470.417930.185314@gargle.gargle.HOWL> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: VM 7.01 under Emacs 21.3.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <46113B1E.1040103@Sun.COM> <4611500B.1090605@sun.com> <461238C3.7000209@Sun.COM> <1175609656.1365.33.camel@thunk> <46126841.4010409@sun.com> <46129881.9040904@sun.com> <4612A37F.7070308@sun.com> <4612A9BC.4080105@sun.com> <20070403194449.GN28748@Sun.COM> <17938.46775.724648.284111@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20070404155407.GI28748@Sun.COM> Status: RO Content-Length: 1309 Lines: 27 Nicolas Williams writes: > > Wretched. :-/ > > Maybe, but if use restrictions such as GPL's on linking are valid or > accepted as such (whether they derive from copyright on an API or > whether it's just FUD), then compilation/run-time support for enforcing > such restrictions could be useful in keeping _us_ out of trouble. > > Alternatively ON's nightly could check that nothing links to GPLed > anything in ON that isn't on a white list. Repeat for each > consolidation (other than SFW, unless multiple license [in]compatibility > issues arise in SFW). As the licensing issues are much more complex than just a single "which one" question, I think this suggestion (if serious) provides a substantial risk of providing a false sense of security to users. Those who set the flags right and are told that nothing is wrong will _assume_ that they are in fact in the clear. Given that we can't actually guarantee that, and that doing so would be tantamount to providing free legal advice by way of our system utilities and linking infrastructure, I don't think it's a good idea. -- James Carlson, Solaris Networking Sun Microsystems / 1 Network Drive 71.232W Vox +1 781 442 2084 MS UBUR02-212 / Burlington MA 01803-2757 42.496N Fax +1 781 442 1677 From sacadmin Wed Apr 4 10:31:55 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l34HVsJ6025658 for ; Wed, 4 Apr 2007 10:31:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l34HVI8G029767 for <@sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com:psarc@sun.com>; Wed, 4 Apr 2007 18:31:21 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JFZ00501I072700@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for psarc@sun.com (ORCPT psarc@sun.com); Wed, 04 Apr 2007 10:31:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.98.43]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JFZ000CHI07F9A0@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for psarc@sun.com (ORCPT psarc@sun.com); Wed, 04 Apr 2007 10:31:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fe-amer-09.sun.com ([192.18.108.183]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l34HVIfS000238 for ; Wed, 04 Apr 2007 17:31:18 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.mail-amer.sun.com by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JFZ00C01GA6SZ00@mail-amer.sun.com> (original mail from John.Fischer@Sun.COM) for psarc@sun.com (ORCPT psarc@sun.com); Wed, 04 Apr 2007 11:31:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from 129.145.154.81 ([129.145.154.81]) by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JFZ00420HZF0LK3@mail-amer.sun.com> for psarc@sun.com (ORCPT psarc@sun.com); Wed, 04 Apr 2007 11:30:52 -0600 (MDT) Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2007 10:30:51 -0700 From: John Fischer Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/188 - GNU readline In-reply-to: <17939.52470.417930.185314@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Sender: John.Fischer@sun.com To: psarc@sun.com Cc: John Fischer , Dermot McCluskey Reply-to: John.Fischer@sun.com Message-id: <1175707850.14534.191.camel@sr1-umpk-31> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.6.335 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <46113B1E.1040103@Sun.COM> <4611500B.1090605@sun.com> <461238C3.7000209@Sun.COM> <1175609656.1365.33.camel@thunk> <46126841.4010409@sun.com> <46129881.9040904@sun.com> <4612A37F.7070308@sun.com> <4612A9BC.4080105@sun.com> <20070403194449.GN28748@Sun.COM> <17938.46775.724648.284111@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20070404155407.GI28748@Sun.COM> <17939.52470.417930.185314@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Status: RO Content-Length: 1645 Lines: 40 Dermot, I have extended the timer as requested at PSARC today. This was done so that we can get the legal issue(s) addressed. Please continue the dialog with PSARC and update them when you have legal's response. Thanks, John On Wed, 2007-04-04 at 09:06, James Carlson wrote: > Nicolas Williams writes: > > > Wretched. :-/ > > > > Maybe, but if use restrictions such as GPL's on linking are valid or > > accepted as such (whether they derive from copyright on an API or > > whether it's just FUD), then compilation/run-time support for enforcing > > such restrictions could be useful in keeping _us_ out of trouble. > > > > Alternatively ON's nightly could check that nothing links to GPLed > > anything in ON that isn't on a white list. Repeat for each > > consolidation (other than SFW, unless multiple license [in]compatibility > > issues arise in SFW). > > As the licensing issues are much more complex than just a single > "which one" question, I think this suggestion (if serious) provides a > substantial risk of providing a false sense of security to users. > > Those who set the flags right and are told that nothing is wrong will > _assume_ that they are in fact in the clear. Given that we can't > actually guarantee that, and that doing so would be tantamount to > providing free legal advice by way of our system utilities and linking > infrastructure, I don't think it's a good idea. > > -- > James Carlson, Solaris Networking > Sun Microsystems / 1 Network Drive 71.232W Vox +1 781 442 2084 > MS UBUR02-212 / Burlington MA 01803-2757 42.496N Fax +1 781 442 1677 From sacadmin Fri Apr 6 17:54:20 2007 Received: from newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (newsunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.245]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l370sKpo001352 for ; Fri, 6 Apr 2007 17:54:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l370rhLA014343; Fri, 6 Apr 2007 18:53:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JG300G0FRTIOD00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Fri, 06 Apr 2007 17:53:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rosseau.sfbay.sun.com ([129.146.228.252]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JG30035ERTBIN70@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Fri, 06 Apr 2007 17:53:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rosseau.sfbay.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rosseau.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.0+Sun/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l370rZQ9000848; Fri, 06 Apr 2007 17:53:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from sch@localhost) by rosseau.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.0+Sun/8.14.0/Submit) id l370rZqe000847; Fri, 06 Apr 2007 17:53:35 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2007 17:53:35 -0700 From: Stephen Hahn Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/188 - GNU readline In-reply-to: <46128A14.4090603@sun.com> To: Joseph Kowalski Cc: Dermot McCluskey , John.Fischer@sun.com, psarc@sun.com Message-id: <20070407005335.GA804@eng.sun.com> Organization: Solaris Kernel Development; Sun Microsystems, Inc. MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1175107603.14534.57.camel@sr1-umpk-31> <460ACD42.4070504@sun.com> <460BFD06.7080604@Sun.COM> <460C0B23.5000305@sun.com> <46113B1E.1040103@Sun.COM> <4611500B.1090605@sun.com> <461238C3.7000209@Sun.COM> <46128A14.4090603@sun.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.7i Status: RO Content-Length: 1669 * Joseph Kowalski [2007-04-03 10:09]: > Isn't Hahn now MIA? :-\ I don't think so, although opinions may differ. I follow ARC on opensolaris-arc@opensolaris.org, so missed this until Dermot sent me a pointer. The current GPL/LGPL architectural guidelines http://webhome.sfbay/OFR/GPL-LGPLArchRules.html are being revised, in part because we believe that the document and the open source review tool don't have enough concrete guidelines for preferred use. The guidelines are a bit out of date with respect to practices in certain products and consolidations, which has also caused some concerns. I do believe that the revision will cover the kinds of use we are already seeing within SMI, but not promote additional use. With respect to readline, my expectation is that the guidelines or an interpretation for decision makers would discourage any use of readline for components not already under a compatible license. That is, we should provide readline for end customers and for compatibly licensed components in which we are involved, but we should also evaluate promotion of our use of libtecla or further investigation of libedit. One point the SFW Consolidation believes has changed from 2001 is customer awareness of open source, specifically developer awareness of open source licensing (and its complications). At present, SFW encodes copyright information in its packages and will begin to provide license information in its source tree. As far as I know, there is no current shared practice around other forms of disclosure. - Stephen -- sch@sun.com http://blogs.sun.com/sch/ From sacadmin Wed Apr 11 10:19:17 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l3BHJGkq022465 for ; Wed, 11 Apr 2007 10:19:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l3BHHqk1007077 for <@newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com:psarc@sun.com>; Wed, 11 Apr 2007 18:18:37 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JGC00401G31B600@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for psarc@sun.com (ORCPT psarc@sun.com); Wed, 11 Apr 2007 11:18:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com ([129.156.42.6]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JGC00GDEG2ZOV80@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for psarc@sun.com (ORCPT psarc@sun.com); Wed, 11 Apr 2007 11:18:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from d1-emea-10.sun.com ([192.18.2.120]) by gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l3BHIZwT027934 for ; Wed, 11 Apr 2007 17:18:35 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-emea-10.sun.com by d1-emea-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JGC00L01FYP6500@d1-emea-10.sun.com> (original mail from Dermot.McCluskey@Sun.COM) for psarc@sun.com (ORCPT psarc@sun.com); Wed, 11 Apr 2007 18:18:35 +0100 (BST) Received: from [129.156.220.16] by d1-emea-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JGC005IHG2YUFM2@d1-emea-10.sun.com> for psarc@sun.com (ORCPT psarc@sun.com); Wed, 11 Apr 2007 18:18:35 +0100 (BST) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 18:18:34 +0100 From: Dermot McCluskey Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/188 - GNU readline In-reply-to: <1175707850.14534.191.camel@sr1-umpk-31> Sender: Dermot.McCluskey@sun.com To: John.Fischer@sun.com Cc: psarc@sun.com Message-id: <461D186A.607@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en-us, en X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <46113B1E.1040103@Sun.COM> <4611500B.1090605@sun.com> <461238C3.7000209@Sun.COM> <1175609656.1365.33.camel@thunk> <46126841.4010409@sun.com> <46129881.9040904@sun.com> <4612A37F.7070308@sun.com> <4612A9BC.4080105@sun.com> <20070403194449.GN28748@Sun.COM> <17938.46775.724648.284111@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20070404155407.GI28748@Sun.COM> <17939.52470.417930.185314@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <1175707850.14534.191.camel@sr1-umpk-31> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; SunOS sun4u; en-US; rv:1.7) Gecko/20060120 Status: RO Content-Length: 646 John Fischer wrote On 04/04/07 18:30,: >Dermot, > >I have extended the timer as requested at PSARC today. >This was done so that we can get the legal issue(s) >addressed. Please continue the dialog with PSARC and >update them when you have legal's response. > > The new GPL/LGPL legal guidelines have not yet been approved. They require further clarification and expansion, but the expectation is that the guidelines will be approved once this is complete. The earliest this can happen in May 4, but will probably be later. So, does the readline case have to be parked, pending full approval from Legal of the new guidelines? - Dermot From sacadmin Wed Feb 11 10:36:40 2009 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1BIaeXg009775 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 2009 10:36:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id n1BIadcC028957; Wed, 11 Feb 2009 10:36:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0KEW00F2DZP2ED00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 11 Feb 2009 10:36:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from gmp-eb-inf-1.sun.com ([192.18.6.21]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0KEW00K57ZP01UD0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 11 Feb 2009 10:36:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from fe-emea-10.sun.com (gmp-eb-lb-2-fe3.eu.sun.com [192.18.6.12]) by gmp-eb-inf-1.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id n1BIaa9p003407; Wed, 11 Feb 2009 18:36:36 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.fe-emea-10.sun.com by fe-emea-10.sun.com (Sun Java(tm) System Messaging Server 7.0-3.01 64bit (built Dec 23 2008)) id <0KEW00800ZI0FJ00@fe-emea-10.sun.com>; Wed, 11 Feb 2009 18:36:36 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [129.156.226.96] ([unknown] [129.156.226.96]) by fe-emea-10.sun.com (Sun Java(tm) System Messaging Server 7.0-3.01 64bit (built Dec 23 2008)) with ESMTPSA id <0KEW00C8EZP0PU80@fe-emea-10.sun.com>; Wed, 11 Feb 2009 18:36:36 +0000 (GMT) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 18:36:42 +0000 From: Dermot McCluskey Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/188 - GNU readline In-reply-to: <20070407005335.GA804@eng.sun.com> Sender: Dermot.McCluskey@Sun.COM To: psarc@Sun.COM Cc: Stephen Hahn , Joseph Kowalski , John.Fischer@Sun.COM, Dermot.McCluskey@Sun.COM Reply-to: Dermot.McCluskey@Sun.COM Message-id: <49931ABA.8010906@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <1175107603.14534.57.camel@sr1-umpk-31> <460ACD42.4070504@sun.com> <460BFD06.7080604@Sun.COM> <460C0B23.5000305@sun.com> <46113B1E.1040103@Sun.COM> <4611500B.1090605@sun.com> <461238C3.7000209@Sun.COM> <46128A14.4090603@sun.com> <20070407005335.GA804@eng.sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.17 (X11/20081023) Status: RO Content-Length: 2261 Hi, I wish to resurrect this ARC case, which has been in waiting status for almost 2 years. The main reason for parking the case was that our legal guidelines at that time prevented us from shipping GPL libraries in default locations. David Comay now informs me that he has verbal agreement with Legal to remove this restriction and will very shortly have new guidelines which require only a note in the relevant man page to highlight the license issue. John - can you restart the timer, please? Thanks, - Dermot On 04/07/07 01:53, Stephen Hahn wrote: > * Joseph Kowalski [2007-04-03 10:09]: >> Isn't Hahn now MIA? :-\ > > I don't think so, although opinions may differ. I follow ARC on > opensolaris-arc@opensolaris.org, so missed this until Dermot sent me a > pointer. > > The current GPL/LGPL architectural guidelines > > http://webhome.sfbay/OFR/GPL-LGPLArchRules.html > > are being revised, in part because we believe that the document and > the open source review tool don't have enough concrete guidelines for > preferred use. The guidelines are a bit out of date with respect to > practices in certain products and consolidations, which has also > caused some concerns. I do believe that the revision will cover the > kinds of use we are already seeing within SMI, but not promote > additional use. > > With respect to readline, my expectation is that the guidelines or an > interpretation for decision makers would discourage any use of > readline for components not already under a compatible license. > That is, we should provide readline for end customers and for > compatibly licensed components in which we are involved, but we should > also evaluate promotion of our use of libtecla or further > investigation of libedit. One point the SFW Consolidation believes > has changed from 2001 is customer awareness of open source, > specifically developer awareness of open source licensing (and its > complications). > > At present, SFW encodes copyright information in its packages and will > begin to provide license information in its source tree. As far as I > know, there is no current shared practice around other forms of > disclosure. > > - Stephen > From sacadmin Wed Feb 11 10:48:54 2009 Received: from sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1BImrZp010288 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 2009 10:48:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id n1BIlvvI028349 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:psarc@sun.com>; Thu, 12 Feb 2009 02:48:52 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0KEX00F0109CKY00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for psarc@sun.com (ORCPT psarc@sun.com); Wed, 11 Feb 2009 10:48:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from dm-sfbay-02.sfbay.sun.com ([129.146.11.31]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0KEX00BUJ09CGJA0@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for psarc@sun.com (ORCPT psarc@sun.com); Wed, 11 Feb 2009 10:48:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from sr1-umpk-12.sfbay.sun.com (sr1-umpk-12.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.154.112]) by dm-sfbay-02.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id n1BImlEd052209; Wed, 11 Feb 2009 10:48:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from sr1-umpk-12.sfbay.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sr1-umpk-12.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1BImkcT058441; Wed, 11 Feb 2009 10:48:46 -0800 (PST) Received: (from johnf@localhost) by sr1-umpk-12.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/Submit) id n1BImkk6058440; Wed, 11 Feb 2009 10:48:46 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 10:48:46 -0800 (PST) From: John Fischer Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/188 - GNU readline To: psarc@sun.com Cc: Dermot.McCluskey@sun.com, John.Fischer@sun.com Message-id: <200902111848.n1BImkk6058440@sr1-umpk-12.sfbay.sun.com> Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 Status: RO Content-Length: 80 All, I have reset the timer for Wednesday, February 11th, 2009. Thanks, John From sacadmin Wed Feb 11 10:51:11 2009 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1BIpBI6010436 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 2009 10:51:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id n1BIoYHk020003; Wed, 11 Feb 2009 10:51:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0KEX00L1F0D7MV00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 11 Feb 2009 11:51:07 -0700 (MST) Received: from dm-east-01.east.sun.com ([129.148.9.192]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0KEX00KBX0D4CT10@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 11 Feb 2009 11:51:04 -0700 (MST) Received: from [129.148.9.177] (sr1-ubur-23.East.Sun.COM [129.148.9.177]) by dm-east-01.east.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id n1BIp2JG035565; Wed, 11 Feb 2009 13:51:02 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 13:51:02 -0500 From: Brian Utterback Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/188 - GNU readline In-reply-to: <49931ABA.8010906@Sun.COM> To: Dermot.McCluskey@sun.com Cc: psarc@sun.com, Stephen Hahn , John.Fischer@sun.com Message-id: <49931E16.9090900@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <1175107603.14534.57.camel@sr1-umpk-31> <460ACD42.4070504@sun.com> <460BFD06.7080604@Sun.COM> <460C0B23.5000305@sun.com> <46113B1E.1040103@Sun.COM> <4611500B.1090605@sun.com> <461238C3.7000209@Sun.COM> <46128A14.4090603@sun.com> <20070407005335.GA804@eng.sun.com> <49931ABA.8010906@Sun.COM> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.20pre (X11/20090108) Status: RO Content-Length: 3129 I am interested in the resolution of this issue. Did legal decide that letting a user's product silently attach the GPL license didn't matter, or that the API is what was covered and if it can use the readline API it is already covered by the GPL, like it or not? Dermot McCluskey wrote: > Hi, > > I wish to resurrect this ARC case, which has been in > waiting status for almost 2 years. > > The main reason for parking the case was that our legal > guidelines at that time prevented us from shipping GPL > libraries in default locations. David Comay now informs > me that he has verbal agreement with Legal to remove this > restriction and will very shortly have new guidelines which > require only a note in the relevant man page to highlight > the license issue. > > > John - can you restart the timer, please? > > > Thanks, > - Dermot > > > > On 04/07/07 01:53, Stephen Hahn wrote: >> * Joseph Kowalski [2007-04-03 10:09]: >>> Isn't Hahn now MIA? :-\ >> >> I don't think so, although opinions may differ. I follow ARC on >> opensolaris-arc@opensolaris.org, so missed this until Dermot sent me a >> pointer. >> >> The current GPL/LGPL architectural guidelines >> >> http://webhome.sfbay/OFR/GPL-LGPLArchRules.html >> >> are being revised, in part because we believe that the document and >> the open source review tool don't have enough concrete guidelines for >> preferred use. The guidelines are a bit out of date with respect to >> practices in certain products and consolidations, which has also >> caused some concerns. I do believe that the revision will cover the >> kinds of use we are already seeing within SMI, but not promote >> additional use. >> >> With respect to readline, my expectation is that the guidelines or an >> interpretation for decision makers would discourage any use of >> readline for components not already under a compatible license. >> That is, we should provide readline for end customers and for >> compatibly licensed components in which we are involved, but we should >> also evaluate promotion of our use of libtecla or further >> investigation of libedit. One point the SFW Consolidation believes >> has changed from 2001 is customer awareness of open source, >> specifically developer awareness of open source licensing (and its >> complications). >> >> At present, SFW encodes copyright information in its packages and will >> begin to provide license information in its source tree. As far as I >> know, there is no current shared practice around other forms of >> disclosure. >> >> - Stephen >> -- blu "Murderous organizations have increased in size and scope; they are more daring, they are served by the most terrible weapons offered by modern science, and the world is nowadays threatened by new forces which, if recklessly unchained, may some day wreak universal destruction." - Arthur Griffith, 1898 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Brian Utterback - Solaris RPE, Sun Microsystems, Inc. Ph:877-259-7345, Em:brian.utterback-at-ess-you-enn-dot-kom From sacadmin Wed Feb 11 10:58:00 2009 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1BIvxB6010884 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 2009 10:57:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id n1BIvtea001656; Wed, 11 Feb 2009 18:57:56 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0KEX00M030OJ8O00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 11 Feb 2009 11:57:55 -0700 (MST) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com ([129.148.174.143]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0KEX00KS10OICO10@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 11 Feb 2009 11:57:54 -0700 (MST) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.3+Sun/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n1BIvlRa016280; Wed, 11 Feb 2009 13:57:47 -0500 (EST) Received: (from carlsonj@localhost) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.3+Sun/8.14.3/Submit) id n1BIvlnB016274; Wed, 11 Feb 2009 13:57:47 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 13:57:47 -0500 From: James Carlson Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/188 - GNU readline In-reply-to: <200902111848.n1BImkk6058440@sr1-umpk-12.sfbay.sun.com> To: John Fischer Cc: psarc@sun.com, Dermot.McCluskey@sun.com, John.Fischer@sun.com Message-id: <18835.8107.334207.8664@gargle.gargle.HOWL> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: VM 7.01 under Emacs 21.3.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <200902111848.n1BImkk6058440@sr1-umpk-12.sfbay.sun.com> Status: RO Content-Length: 429 John Fischer writes: > I have reset the timer for Wednesday, February 11th, 2009. Assuming this means we're back to the obvious /usr/lib and /usr/include installation, I'll give an enthusiastic +1. Yay! -- James Carlson, Solaris Networking Sun Microsystems / 35 Network Drive 71.232W Vox +1 781 442 2084 MS UBUR02-212 / Burlington MA 01803-2757 42.496N Fax +1 781 442 1677 From sacadmin Wed Feb 11 11:01:48 2009 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1BJ1mq5011131 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 2009 11:01:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id n1BJ1jjd027424; Wed, 11 Feb 2009 11:01:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0KEX00I190UXF300@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 11 Feb 2009 11:01:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com ([129.148.174.143]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0KEX00I3A0UWC200@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 11 Feb 2009 11:01:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.3+Sun/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n1BJ1bte028485; Wed, 11 Feb 2009 14:01:37 -0500 (EST) Received: (from carlsonj@localhost) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.3+Sun/8.14.3/Submit) id n1BJ1bYf028475; Wed, 11 Feb 2009 14:01:37 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 14:01:37 -0500 From: James Carlson Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/188 - GNU readline In-reply-to: <49931E16.9090900@sun.com> To: Brian Utterback Cc: Dermot.McCluskey@sun.com, psarc@sun.com, Stephen Hahn , John.Fischer@sun.com Message-id: <18835.8337.804330.758426@gargle.gargle.HOWL> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: VM 7.01 under Emacs 21.3.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <1175107603.14534.57.camel@sr1-umpk-31> <460ACD42.4070504@sun.com> <460BFD06.7080604@Sun.COM> <460C0B23.5000305@sun.com> <46113B1E.1040103@Sun.COM> <4611500B.1090605@sun.com> <461238C3.7000209@Sun.COM> <46128A14.4090603@sun.com> <20070407005335.GA804@eng.sun.com> <49931ABA.8010906@Sun.COM> <49931E16.9090900@sun.com> Status: RO Content-Length: 1188 Brian Utterback writes: > I am interested in the resolution of this issue. Did legal decide that > letting a user's product silently attach the GPL license didn't > matter, or that the API is what was covered and if it can use the > readline API it is already covered by the GPL, like it or not? I think the question is probably off topic for this list, but it's worth noting that GPL isn't the only license that can potentially end up fouling the plans of others, and that Sun can hardly be on the hook to do other people's legal evaluations for them, which is the implication of creating a GPL ghetto. Thus, the previous policy simply made no sense at all, and it's wonderful to see it abandoned, regardless of the rationale behind the change. It'd be swell if the change also came with a promise that (in the future) we're going to leave questions of system architecture up to the folks who are responsible for it, but maybe that's asking a bit too much. -- James Carlson, Solaris Networking Sun Microsystems / 35 Network Drive 71.232W Vox +1 781 442 2084 MS UBUR02-212 / Burlington MA 01803-2757 42.496N Fax +1 781 442 1677 From sacadmin Wed Feb 11 11:15:45 2009 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1BJFjqm019528 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 2009 11:15:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id n1BJFgmE019435; Wed, 11 Feb 2009 11:15:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0KEX00K071I14B00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 11 Feb 2009 11:15:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM ([129.153.128.104]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0KEX00IQ21I1C300@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 11 Feb 2009 11:15:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.14.3+Sun/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n1BJEEaw017198; Wed, 11 Feb 2009 13:14:14 -0600 (CST) Received: (from nw141292@localhost) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.14.3+Sun/8.14.3/Submit) id n1BJEEun017197; Wed, 11 Feb 2009 13:14:14 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 13:14:14 -0600 From: Nicolas Williams Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/188 - GNU readline In-reply-to: <18835.8337.804330.758426@gargle.gargle.HOWL> To: James Carlson Cc: Brian Utterback , Dermot.McCluskey@sun.com, psarc@sun.com, Stephen Hahn , John.Fischer@sun.com Message-id: <20090211191414.GL9992@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <460BFD06.7080604@Sun.COM> <460C0B23.5000305@sun.com> <46113B1E.1040103@Sun.COM> <4611500B.1090605@sun.com> <461238C3.7000209@Sun.COM> <46128A14.4090603@sun.com> <20070407005335.GA804@eng.sun.com> <49931ABA.8010906@Sun.COM> <49931E16.9090900@sun.com> <18835.8337.804330.758426@gargle.gargle.HOWL> X-Authentication-warning: binky.Central.Sun.COM: nw141292 set sender to Nicolas.Williams@sun.com using -f User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.7i Status: RO Content-Length: 1387 On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 02:01:37PM -0500, James Carlson wrote: > Brian Utterback writes: > > I am interested in the resolution of this issue. Did legal decide that > > letting a user's product silently attach the GPL license didn't > > matter, or that the API is what was covered and if it can use the > > readline API it is already covered by the GPL, like it or not? > > I think the question is probably off topic for this list, but it's > worth noting that GPL isn't the only license that can potentially end > up fouling the plans of others, and that Sun can hardly be on the hook > to do other people's legal evaluations for them, which is the > implication of creating a GPL ghetto. Thus, the previous policy > simply made no sense at all, and it's wonderful to see it abandoned, > regardless of the rationale behind the change. > > It'd be swell if the change also came with a promise that (in the > future) we're going to leave questions of system architecture up to > the folks who are responsible for it, but maybe that's asking a bit > too much. Lawyers provide advice and should not make business decisions. Management makes business decisions based on, among other things, advice from Legal. In this case it seems that overly-conservative lawyers and management led to this enormous delay (or perhaps it was something else?) before we did the right thing. Nico -- From sacadmin Wed Feb 11 11:33:40 2009 Received: from newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (newsunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.245]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1BJXeA8020550 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 2009 11:33:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id n1BJXV8c032107; Wed, 11 Feb 2009 12:33:39 -0700 (MST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0KEX00H372C2T900@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 11 Feb 2009 11:33:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from dm-east-01.east.sun.com ([129.148.9.192]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0KEX00HUY2BZJ600@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 11 Feb 2009 11:33:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from [129.148.9.177] (sr1-ubur-23.East.Sun.COM [129.148.9.177]) by dm-east-01.east.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id n1BJXWi1032517; Wed, 11 Feb 2009 14:33:33 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 14:33:32 -0500 From: Brian Utterback Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/188 - GNU readline In-reply-to: <18835.8337.804330.758426@gargle.gargle.HOWL> To: James Carlson Cc: Dermot.McCluskey@sun.com, psarc@sun.com, Stephen Hahn , John.Fischer@sun.com Message-id: <4993280C.9080809@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <1175107603.14534.57.camel@sr1-umpk-31> <460ACD42.4070504@sun.com> <460BFD06.7080604@Sun.COM> <460C0B23.5000305@sun.com> <46113B1E.1040103@Sun.COM> <4611500B.1090605@sun.com> <461238C3.7000209@Sun.COM> <46128A14.4090603@sun.com> <20070407005335.GA804@eng.sun.com> <49931ABA.8010906@Sun.COM> <49931E16.9090900@sun.com> <18835.8337.804330.758426@gargle.gargle.HOWL> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.20pre (X11/20090108) Status: RO Content-Length: 2344 James Carlson wrote: > Brian Utterback writes: >> I am interested in the resolution of this issue. Did legal decide that >> letting a user's product silently attach the GPL license didn't >> matter, or that the API is what was covered and if it can use the >> readline API it is already covered by the GPL, like it or not? > > I think the question is probably off topic for this list, but it's > worth noting that GPL isn't the only license that can potentially end > up fouling the plans of others, and that Sun can hardly be on the hook > to do other people's legal evaluations for them, which is the > implication of creating a GPL ghetto. Thus, the previous policy > simply made no sense at all, and it's wonderful to see it abandoned, > regardless of the rationale behind the change. > > It'd be swell if the change also came with a promise that (in the > future) we're going to leave questions of system architecture up to > the folks who are responsible for it, but maybe that's asking a bit > too much. > That's why I want to know. Does this represent a blanket business decision that the users are responsible for the bits that go into their apps, no matter the reason and source, and thus removing the license as a consideration for all libraries in the future, or is this a one off, perhaps due to negotiations with FSF regarding readline specifically? In the original thread there was a discussion of the fact that the FSF regarded the use of the readline API by itself as enough to attach the GPL. If legal concurred with that opinion, then perhaps they decided to allow readline because any program that linked to it would have already been de facto covered by the GPL and thus it did not change anything. If that is the case, then GPL'ed libraries might be off the hook, but others might still need scrutiny. -- blu "Murderous organizations have increased in size and scope; they are more daring, they are served by the most terrible weapons offered by modern science, and the world is nowadays threatened by new forces which, if recklessly unchained, may some day wreak universal destruction." - Arthur Griffith, 1898 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Brian Utterback - Solaris RPE, Sun Microsystems, Inc. Ph:877-259-7345, Em:brian.utterback-at-ess-you-enn-dot-kom From sacadmin Wed Feb 11 11:38:50 2009 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1BJcotY021229 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 2009 11:38:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id n1BJcjLw005502; Wed, 11 Feb 2009 11:38:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0KEX00I0H2KL2900@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 11 Feb 2009 11:38:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from zion.sfbay.sun.com ([129.146.17.75]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0KEX00HR02KJJ610@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 11 Feb 2009 11:38:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from [129.146.228.109] (cyber.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.228.109]) by zion.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.2+Sun/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n1BJcgCs015815; Wed, 11 Feb 2009 19:38:42 +0000 (GMT) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 11:38:40 -0800 From: Bart Smaalders Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/188 - GNU readline In-reply-to: <49931E16.9090900@sun.com> To: Brian Utterback Cc: Dermot.McCluskey@sun.com, psarc@sun.com, Stephen Hahn , John.Fischer@sun.com Message-id: <49932940.8030707@Sun.COM> Organization: Sun Microsystems MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <1175107603.14534.57.camel@sr1-umpk-31> <460ACD42.4070504@sun.com> <460BFD06.7080604@Sun.COM> <460C0B23.5000305@sun.com> <46113B1E.1040103@Sun.COM> <4611500B.1090605@sun.com> <461238C3.7000209@Sun.COM> <46128A14.4090603@sun.com> <20070407005335.GA804@eng.sun.com> <49931ABA.8010906@Sun.COM> <49931E16.9090900@sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.18 (X11/20081216) Status: RO Content-Length: 616 Brian Utterback wrote: > I am interested in the resolution of this issue. Did legal decide that > letting a user's product silently attach the GPL license didn't matter, > or that the API is what was covered and if it can use the readline API > it is already covered by the GPL, like it or not? Last time I checked, using automated tools to build products doesn't absolve anyone of the need to understand what it is they are building... - Bart -- Bart Smaalders Solaris Kernel Performance barts@cyber.eng.sun.com http://blogs.sun.com/barts "You will contribute more with mercurial than with thunderbird." From sacadmin Wed Feb 11 11:42:08 2009 Received: from newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (newsunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.245]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1BJg8hu021386 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 2009 11:42:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id n1BJg4HF040495 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:psarc@sun.com>; Wed, 11 Feb 2009 12:42:07 -0700 (MST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0KEX0035P2Q61F00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for psarc@sun.com (ORCPT psarc@sun.com); Wed, 11 Feb 2009 12:42:06 -0700 (MST) Received: from sca-es-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.43.132]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0KEX00K4M2Q6CN60@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for psarc@sun.com (ORCPT psarc@sun.com); Wed, 11 Feb 2009 12:42:06 -0700 (MST) Received: from fe-sfbay-10.sun.com ([192.18.43.129]) by sca-es-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id n1BJg5hY018021 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 2009 11:42:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from conversion-daemon.fe-sfbay-10.sun.com by fe-sfbay-10.sun.com (Sun Java(tm) System Messaging Server 7.0-3.01 64bit (built Dec 23 2008)) id <0KEX002002IXHE00@fe-sfbay-10.sun.com> for psarc@sun.com (ORCPT psarc@sun.com); Wed, 11 Feb 2009 11:42:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.251.11] ([unknown] [76.93.15.33]) by fe-sfbay-10.sun.com (Sun Java(tm) System Messaging Server 7.0-3.01 64bit (built Dec 23 2008)) with ESMTPSA id <0KEX00EXK2PISOF0@fe-sfbay-10.sun.com>; Wed, 11 Feb 2009 11:41:43 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 11:41:42 -0800 From: "Garrett D'Amore" Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/188 - GNU readline In-reply-to: <20090211191414.GL9992@Sun.COM> Sender: Garrett.Damore@sun.com To: Nicolas Williams Cc: James Carlson , Brian Utterback , Dermot.McCluskey@sun.com, psarc@sun.com, Stephen Hahn , John.Fischer@sun.com Message-id: <499329F6.4030907@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <460BFD06.7080604@Sun.COM> <460C0B23.5000305@sun.com> <46113B1E.1040103@Sun.COM> <4611500B.1090605@sun.com> <461238C3.7000209@Sun.COM> <46128A14.4090603@sun.com> <20070407005335.GA804@eng.sun.com> <49931ABA.8010906@Sun.COM> <49931E16.9090900@sun.com> <18835.8337.804330.758426@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20090211191414.GL9992@Sun.COM> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.18 (X11/20081201) Status: RO Content-Length: 1933 The key relevant bit here, I think, is that software developed by Sun, not covered by the GPL, must not use this library. I worry about someone getting burned by accident on this one. I think from a system architecture point of view, it would be *good* if the tools we use to build software could help identify possible licensing conflicts. There are a number of possible ways this could be done... has anyone given any thought to this? -- Garrett Nicolas Williams wrote: > On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 02:01:37PM -0500, James Carlson wrote: > >> Brian Utterback writes: >> >>> I am interested in the resolution of this issue. Did legal decide that >>> letting a user's product silently attach the GPL license didn't >>> matter, or that the API is what was covered and if it can use the >>> readline API it is already covered by the GPL, like it or not? >>> >> I think the question is probably off topic for this list, but it's >> worth noting that GPL isn't the only license that can potentially end >> up fouling the plans of others, and that Sun can hardly be on the hook >> to do other people's legal evaluations for them, which is the >> implication of creating a GPL ghetto. Thus, the previous policy >> simply made no sense at all, and it's wonderful to see it abandoned, >> regardless of the rationale behind the change. >> >> It'd be swell if the change also came with a promise that (in the >> future) we're going to leave questions of system architecture up to >> the folks who are responsible for it, but maybe that's asking a bit >> too much. >> > > Lawyers provide advice and should not make business decisions. > Management makes business decisions based on, among other things, advice > from Legal. In this case it seems that overly-conservative lawyers and > management led to this enormous delay (or perhaps it was something > else?) before we did the right thing. > > Nico > From sacadmin Wed Feb 11 11:47:44 2009 Received: from sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1BJlhNY021634 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 2009 11:47:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id n1BJlVXX000266 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:psarc@sun.com>; Thu, 12 Feb 2009 03:47:42 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0KEX003052ZFK200@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for psarc@sun.com (ORCPT psarc@sun.com); Wed, 11 Feb 2009 12:47:39 -0700 (MST) Received: from sca-es-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.43.133]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0KEX00K5P2ZECS60@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for psarc@sun.com (ORCPT psarc@sun.com); Wed, 11 Feb 2009 12:47:39 -0700 (MST) Received: from fe-sfbay-09.sun.com ([192.18.43.129]) by sca-es-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id n1BJlcvN028127 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 2009 11:47:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from conversion-daemon.fe-sfbay-09.sun.com by fe-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java(tm) System Messaging Server 7.0-3.01 64bit (built Dec 23 2008)) id <0KEX00J002QMYZ00@fe-sfbay-09.sun.com> for psarc@sun.com (ORCPT psarc@sun.com); Wed, 11 Feb 2009 11:47:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.251.11] ([unknown] [76.93.15.33]) by fe-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java(tm) System Messaging Server 7.0-3.01 64bit (built Dec 23 2008)) with ESMTPSA id <0KEX008SP2ZDNR50@fe-sfbay-09.sun.com>; Wed, 11 Feb 2009 11:47:37 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 11:47:37 -0800 From: "Garrett D'Amore" Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/188 - GNU readline In-reply-to: <4993280C.9080809@sun.com> Sender: Garrett.Damore@sun.com To: Brian Utterback Cc: James Carlson , Dermot.McCluskey@sun.com, psarc@sun.com, Stephen Hahn , John.Fischer@sun.com Message-id: <49932B59.5090600@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <1175107603.14534.57.camel@sr1-umpk-31> <460ACD42.4070504@sun.com> <460BFD06.7080604@Sun.COM> <460C0B23.5000305@sun.com> <46113B1E.1040103@Sun.COM> <4611500B.1090605@sun.com> <461238C3.7000209@Sun.COM> <46128A14.4090603@sun.com> <20070407005335.GA804@eng.sun.com> <49931ABA.8010906@Sun.COM> <49931E16.9090900@sun.com> <18835.8337.804330.758426@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4993280C.9080809@sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.18 (X11/20081201) Status: RO Content-Length: 2527 Brian Utterback wrote: > > > James Carlson wrote: >> Brian Utterback writes: >>> I am interested in the resolution of this issue. Did legal decide >>> that letting a user's product silently attach the GPL license didn't >>> matter, or that the API is what was covered and if it can use the >>> readline API it is already covered by the GPL, like it or not? >> >> I think the question is probably off topic for this list, but it's >> worth noting that GPL isn't the only license that can potentially end >> up fouling the plans of others, and that Sun can hardly be on the hook >> to do other people's legal evaluations for them, which is the >> implication of creating a GPL ghetto. Thus, the previous policy >> simply made no sense at all, and it's wonderful to see it abandoned, >> regardless of the rationale behind the change. >> >> It'd be swell if the change also came with a promise that (in the >> future) we're going to leave questions of system architecture up to >> the folks who are responsible for it, but maybe that's asking a bit >> too much. >> > > That's why I want to know. Does this represent a blanket business > decision that the users are responsible for the bits that go into > their apps, no matter the reason and source, and thus removing the > license as a consideration for all libraries in the future, or is this > a one off, perhaps due to negotiations with FSF regarding readline > specifically? In the original thread there was a discussion of the > fact that the FSF regarded the use of the readline API by itself as > enough to attach the GPL. If legal concurred with that opinion, then > perhaps they decided to allow readline because any program that linked > to it would have already been de facto covered by the GPL and thus it > did not change anything. If that is the case, then GPL'ed libraries > might be off the hook, but others might still need scrutiny. > IANAL. But I understand (in the US at least) that copyright covers a specific implementation. One could create an implementation, that was 100% compatible with GNU readline, and I believe that this would not necessarily be covered by the GPL. I don't think you can copyright an API, although I'm not aware that this has ever been tested in court. I think FSF would be ill advised to pursue such a test, since if APIs were copyrightable it would set a dangerous precedent that would have ugly implications for a lot of their software. (Samba, reverse engineered Linux drivers, etc.) -- Garrett From sacadmin Wed Feb 11 11:58:42 2009 Received: from sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1BJwfnr022235 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 2009 11:58:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id n1BJwaFn006566; Thu, 12 Feb 2009 03:58:36 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0KEX00J033HJ2W00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 11 Feb 2009 11:58:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from dm-east-01.east.sun.com ([129.148.9.192]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0KEX00HU33HIJ520@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 11 Feb 2009 11:58:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from [129.148.9.177] (sr1-ubur-23.East.Sun.COM [129.148.9.177]) by dm-east-01.east.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id n1BJwR0D016058; Wed, 11 Feb 2009 14:58:28 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 14:58:27 -0500 From: Brian Utterback Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/188 - GNU readline In-reply-to: <49932B59.5090600@sun.com> To: "Garrett D'Amore" Cc: James Carlson , Dermot.McCluskey@sun.com, psarc@sun.com, Stephen Hahn , John.Fischer@sun.com Message-id: <49932DE3.5080504@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <1175107603.14534.57.camel@sr1-umpk-31> <460ACD42.4070504@sun.com> <460BFD06.7080604@Sun.COM> <460C0B23.5000305@sun.com> <46113B1E.1040103@Sun.COM> <4611500B.1090605@sun.com> <461238C3.7000209@Sun.COM> <46128A14.4090603@sun.com> <20070407005335.GA804@eng.sun.com> <49931ABA.8010906@Sun.COM> <49931E16.9090900@sun.com> <18835.8337.804330.758426@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4993280C.9080809@sun.com> <49932B59.5090600@sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.20pre (X11/20090108) Status: RO Content-Length: 1353 Garrett D'Amore wrote: > IANAL. But I understand (in the US at least) that copyright covers a > specific implementation. One could create an implementation, that was > 100% compatible with GNU readline, and I believe that this would not > necessarily be covered by the GPL. > > I don't think you can copyright an API, although I'm not aware that this > has ever been tested in court. > > I think FSF would be ill advised to pursue such a test, since if APIs > were copyrightable it would set a dangerous precedent that would have > ugly implications for a lot of their software. (Samba, reverse > engineered Linux drivers, etc.) Oh, I agree. IANAL either. Which is why we tabled this until we got an opinion from legal. I think that that opinion could be relevant to cases down the road, which is why I would like to know the reasoning. -- blu "Murderous organizations have increased in size and scope; they are more daring, they are served by the most terrible weapons offered by modern science, and the world is nowadays threatened by new forces which, if recklessly unchained, may some day wreak universal destruction." - Arthur Griffith, 1898 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Brian Utterback - Solaris RPE, Sun Microsystems, Inc. Ph:877-259-7345, Em:brian.utterback-at-ess-you-enn-dot-kom From sacadmin Wed Feb 11 12:06:15 2009 Received: from sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1BK6ELv012792 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 2009 12:06:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id n1BK5mIY011070; Thu, 12 Feb 2009 04:06:05 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0KEX00J053TRFA00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 11 Feb 2009 12:05:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com ([129.148.174.143]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0KEX00HX53TQJ140@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 11 Feb 2009 12:05:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.3+Sun/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n1BK5oYq004616; Wed, 11 Feb 2009 15:05:50 -0500 (EST) Received: (from carlsonj@localhost) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.3+Sun/8.14.3/Submit) id n1BK5oSb004613; Wed, 11 Feb 2009 15:05:50 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 15:05:50 -0500 From: James Carlson Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/188 - GNU readline In-reply-to: <4993280C.9080809@sun.com> To: Brian Utterback Cc: Dermot.McCluskey@sun.com, psarc@sun.com, Stephen Hahn , John.Fischer@sun.com Message-id: <18835.12190.498557.990761@gargle.gargle.HOWL> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: VM 7.01 under Emacs 21.3.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <1175107603.14534.57.camel@sr1-umpk-31> <460ACD42.4070504@sun.com> <460BFD06.7080604@Sun.COM> <460C0B23.5000305@sun.com> <46113B1E.1040103@Sun.COM> <4611500B.1090605@sun.com> <461238C3.7000209@Sun.COM> <46128A14.4090603@sun.com> <20070407005335.GA804@eng.sun.com> <49931ABA.8010906@Sun.COM> <49931E16.9090900@sun.com> <18835.8337.804330.758426@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4993280C.9080809@sun.com> Status: RO Content-Length: 1632 Brian Utterback writes: > That's why I want to know. Does this represent a blanket business > decision that the users are responsible for the bits that go into > their apps, no matter the reason and source, and thus removing the > license as a consideration for all libraries in the future, or is this > a one off, perhaps due to negotiations with FSF regarding readline > specifically? In the original thread there was a discussion of the For the purposes of this case, I don't think it matters, but as a general legal rule, people are always responsible for their own actions, and no legal department (let alone Sun's) can change that. You might be able to turn around and sue someone else that you relied on for faulty legal advice, but you can't absolve yourself of risk in the first place. > fact that the FSF regarded the use of the readline API by itself as > enough to attach the GPL. If legal concurred with that opinion, then > perhaps they decided to allow readline because any program that linked > to it would have already been de facto covered by the GPL and thus it > did not change anything. If that is the case, then GPL'ed libraries > might be off the hook, but others might still need scrutiny. Every project requires at least some sort of legal review, so I'm not sure we have anything like a useful precedent here. In any event, we're still way off topic, so let's stop. -- James Carlson, Solaris Networking Sun Microsystems / 35 Network Drive 71.232W Vox +1 781 442 2084 MS UBUR02-212 / Burlington MA 01803-2757 42.496N Fax +1 781 442 1677 From sacadmin Wed Feb 11 12:27:02 2009 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1BKR2Il012730 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 2009 12:27:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id n1BKQri3012301; Wed, 11 Feb 2009 12:26:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0KEX0071L4SX7Z00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 11 Feb 2009 13:26:57 -0700 (MST) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM ([129.153.128.104]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0KEX00K934SXCUA0@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 11 Feb 2009 13:26:57 -0700 (MST) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.14.3+Sun/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n1BKPYUf017244; Wed, 11 Feb 2009 14:25:34 -0600 (CST) Received: (from nw141292@localhost) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.14.3+Sun/8.14.3/Submit) id n1BKPY1U017243; Wed, 11 Feb 2009 14:25:34 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 14:25:34 -0600 From: Nicolas Williams Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/188 - GNU readline In-reply-to: <499329F6.4030907@sun.com> To: "Garrett D'Amore" Cc: James Carlson , Brian Utterback , Dermot.McCluskey@sun.com, psarc@sun.com, Stephen Hahn , John.Fischer@sun.com Message-id: <20090211202533.GO9992@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <46113B1E.1040103@Sun.COM> <4611500B.1090605@sun.com> <461238C3.7000209@Sun.COM> <46128A14.4090603@sun.com> <20070407005335.GA804@eng.sun.com> <49931ABA.8010906@Sun.COM> <49931E16.9090900@sun.com> <18835.8337.804330.758426@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20090211191414.GL9992@Sun.COM> <499329F6.4030907@sun.com> X-Authentication-warning: binky.Central.Sun.COM: nw141292 set sender to Nicolas.Williams@sun.com using -f User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.7i Status: RO Content-Length: 842 On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 11:41:42AM -0800, Garrett D'Amore wrote: > The key relevant bit here, I think, is that software developed by Sun, > not covered by the GPL, must not use this library. I worry about > someone getting burned by accident on this one. Different issue. > I think from a system architecture point of view, it would be *good* > if the tools we use to build software could help identify possible > licensing conflicts. There are a number of possible ways this could > be done... has anyone given any thought to this? I've mentioned this before too. Since the mode of "infection" seems to involve the link-editor[*], it makes sense for the link-editor to also provide warnings about incompatible licenses. [*] But not necessarily dlopen(), at least when used with standard plug-in interfaces, according to Legal. From sacadmin Wed Feb 11 14:16:12 2009 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1BMGBHG018897 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 2009 14:16:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id n1BMG9DC006140; Wed, 11 Feb 2009 14:16:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0KEX00J0J9UYRI00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 11 Feb 2009 14:16:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from dm-sfbay-01.sfbay.sun.com ([129.145.155.118]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0KEX00JOV9UYD300@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 11 Feb 2009 14:16:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from izimbra.SFBay.Sun.COM (izimbra.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.226.141]) by dm-sfbay-01.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id n1BMG8l1003910; Wed, 11 Feb 2009 14:16:08 -0800 (PST) Received: (from comay@localhost) by izimbra.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.14.3+Sun/8.14.3/Submit) id n1BMG86T111728; Wed, 11 Feb 2009 14:16:08 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 14:16:08 -0800 (PST) From: David Comay Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/188 - GNU readline To: Dermot.McCluskey@sun.com, brian.utterback@sun.com Cc: John.Fischer@sun.com, psarc@sun.com, sch@sun.com Message-id: <200902112216.n1BMG86T111728@izimbra.SFBay.Sun.COM> Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 Status: RO Content-Length: 1318 > I am interested in the resolution of this issue. Did legal decide that > letting a user's product silently attach the GPL license didn't > matter, or that the API is what was covered and if it can use the > readline API it is already covered by the GPL, like it or not? This really has little to do with the architectural change proposed by this case so I hesitate to even reply but in short, there are new GPL/LGPL architectural guidelines[1] that have been created for Sun products (including OpenSolaris). Older version of the guidelines specified that GPL/LGPL component should not be delivered in places they would be seen automatically (no commands under /usr/bin, no libraries under /usr/lib, etc). After a lot of time and discussion, that part of the guidelines has been removed. As others have said, it doesn't change the fact that project teams need to understand the licenses of the components they're linking against and how they're linking or incorporating the code. And yes, it would be great to have some tooling in this area. But that's not this case. If you have an interest in working on such tools, please let me know and we can get the right set of folks in a room. [1] Yes, we need to make these guidelines more widely available so I'll get their current location and make that known. From sacadmin Wed Feb 11 14:19:03 2009 Received: from sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1BMJ2SD019032 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 2009 14:19:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id n1BMItpi022276; Thu, 12 Feb 2009 06:18:59 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0KEX0030P9ZJXI00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 11 Feb 2009 14:18:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from dm-sfbay-02.sfbay.sun.com ([129.146.11.31]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0KEX0039I9ZJQL00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 11 Feb 2009 14:18:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from izimbra.SFBay.Sun.COM (izimbra.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.226.141]) by dm-sfbay-02.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id n1BMIruf004714; Wed, 11 Feb 2009 14:18:53 -0800 (PST) Received: (from comay@localhost) by izimbra.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.14.3+Sun/8.14.3/Submit) id n1BMIrqY111757; Wed, 11 Feb 2009 14:18:53 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 14:18:53 -0800 (PST) From: David Comay Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/188 - GNU readline To: James.D.Carlson@Sun.COM, Nicolas.Williams@Sun.COM Cc: Brian.Utterback@Sun.COM, Dermot.McCluskey@Sun.COM, John.Fischer@Sun.COM, psarc@Sun.COM, sch@Sun.COM Message-id: <200902112218.n1BMIrqY111757@izimbra.SFBay.Sun.COM> Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 Status: RO Content-Length: 610 > Lawyers provide advice and should not make business decisions. > Management makes business decisions based on, among other things, advice > from Legal. In this case it seems that overly-conservative lawyers and > management led to this enormous delay (or perhaps it was something > else?) before we did the right thing. It can also be that there were not enough people able/willing to work with the various entities to educate and discuss the issues. Some of the folks involved were extremely busy with higher priority things and so resolving what seems like simple things took longer than anyone wanted. From sacadmin Wed Feb 11 14:26:05 2009 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1BMQ5ew019561 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 2009 14:26:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id n1BMQ2qJ015629; Wed, 11 Feb 2009 14:26:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0KEX00407ABFDB00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 11 Feb 2009 14:26:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from dm-sfbay-02.sfbay.sun.com ([129.146.11.31]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0KEX003NWABFQQ00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 11 Feb 2009 14:26:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from izimbra.SFBay.Sun.COM (izimbra.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.226.141]) by dm-sfbay-02.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id n1BMQ1Ws009029; Wed, 11 Feb 2009 14:26:01 -0800 (PST) Received: (from comay@localhost) by izimbra.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.14.3+Sun/8.14.3/Submit) id n1BMQ12R111799; Wed, 11 Feb 2009 14:26:01 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 14:26:01 -0800 (PST) From: David Comay Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/188 - GNU readline To: Nicolas.Williams@Sun.COM, gdamore@Sun.COM Cc: Brian.Utterback@Sun.COM, Dermot.McCluskey@Sun.COM, James.D.Carlson@Sun.COM, John.Fischer@Sun.COM, psarc@Sun.COM, sch@Sun.COM Message-id: <200902112226.n1BMQ12R111799@izimbra.SFBay.Sun.COM> Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 Status: RO Content-Length: 780 > The key relevant bit here, I think, is that software developed by Sun, > not covered by the GPL, must not use this library. I worry about > someone getting burned by accident on this one. More precisely, components (whether development by Sun or not) that are not under a GPL-compatible license may not dynamically link with libreadline. > I think from a system architecture point of view, it would be *good* if > the tools we use to build software could help identify possible > licensing conflicts. There are a number of possible ways this could be > done... has anyone given any thought to this? Yes, there have been some discussions but like so many things these days, it's a matter of priority. If someone would like to file an RFE, that would be a good start. From sacadmin Thu Feb 12 10:19:52 2009 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1CIJqVo023016 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 2009 10:19:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id n1CIJgEC026234 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:psarc@sun.com>; Thu, 12 Feb 2009 10:19:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0KEY00K31TL25000@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for psarc@sun.com (ORCPT psarc@sun.com); Thu, 12 Feb 2009 11:19:50 -0700 (MST) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com ([192.18.98.36]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0KEY0051UTL0GPF0@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for psarc@sun.com (ORCPT psarc@sun.com); Thu, 12 Feb 2009 11:19:49 -0700 (MST) Received: from fe-amer-09.sun.com ([192.18.109.79]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id n1CIJmRt027908 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 2009 18:19:48 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.mail-amer.sun.com by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java(tm) System Messaging Server 7.0-3.01 64bit (built Dec 23 2008)) id <0KEY00D00SUQGC00@mail-amer.sun.com> for psarc@sun.com (ORCPT psarc@sun.com); Thu, 12 Feb 2009 11:19:48 -0700 (MST) Received: from 129.145.154.112 ([unknown] [129.145.154.112]) by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java(tm) System Messaging Server 7.0-3.01 64bit (built Dec 23 2008)) with ESMTPSA id <0KEY00LTITKSFG00@mail-amer.sun.com>; Thu, 12 Feb 2009 11:19:48 -0700 (MST) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 10:19:40 -0800 From: John Fischer Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/188 - GNU readline In-reply-to: <200902111848.n1BImkk6058440@sr1-umpk-12.sfbay.sun.com> Sender: John.Fischer@sun.com To: John Fischer Cc: psarc@sun.com, Dermot McCluskey Reply-to: John.Fischer@sun.com Message-id: <1234413260.2067.6194.camel@sr1-umpk-12> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.6.301 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <200902111848.n1BImkk6058440@sr1-umpk-12.sfbay.sun.com> Status: RO Content-Length: 193 All, Sorry, I meant February 18th, 2009. John On Wed, 2009-02-11 at 10:48, John Fischer wrote: > All, > > I have reset the timer for Wednesday, February 11th, 2009. > > Thanks, > > John From sacadmin Wed Feb 18 12:09:02 2009 Received: from newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (newsunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.245]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1IK92Jl021568 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 2009 12:09:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id n1IK8vVW050870 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:psarc@sun.com>; Wed, 18 Feb 2009 13:09:01 -0700 (MST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0KFA0030P2N1ZC00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for psarc@sun.com (ORCPT psarc@sun.com); Wed, 18 Feb 2009 13:09:01 -0700 (MST) Received: from sca-es-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.43.132]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0KFA00HW72N1NX90@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for psarc@sun.com (ORCPT psarc@sun.com); Wed, 18 Feb 2009 13:09:01 -0700 (MST) Received: from fe-sfbay-10.sun.com ([192.18.43.129]) by sca-es-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id n1IK8ud4016306 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 2009 12:09:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from conversion-daemon.fe-sfbay-10.sun.com by fe-sfbay-10.sun.com (Sun Java(tm) System Messaging Server 7.0-3.01 64bit (built Dec 23 2008)) id <0KFA00D000YZ8G00@fe-sfbay-10.sun.com> for psarc@sun.com (ORCPT psarc@sun.com); Wed, 18 Feb 2009 12:08:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.10.10] ([unknown] [76.20.56.47]) by fe-sfbay-10.sun.com (Sun Java(tm) System Messaging Server 7.0-3.01 64bit (built Dec 23 2008)) with ESMTPSA id <0KFA007CQ2MT9L20@fe-sfbay-10.sun.com> for psarc@sun.com (ORCPT psarc@sun.com); Wed, 18 Feb 2009 12:08:54 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 12:07:53 -0800 From: John Fischer Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/188 - GNU readline In-reply-to: <1234413260.2067.6194.camel@sr1-umpk-12> Sender: John.Fischer@sun.com To: psarc@sun.com Cc: John.Fischer@sun.com, Dermot McCluskey Reply-to: John.Fischer@sun.com Message-id: <499C6A99.5080401@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <200902111848.n1BImkk6058440@sr1-umpk-12.sfbay.sun.com> <1234413260.2067.6194.camel@sr1-umpk-12> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.18 (X11/20090113) Status: RO Content-Length: 408 All, The last remaining issue (GPL licensing) having been addressed and having received the +1 I am marking this the slowest fast track ever closed approved. Thanks, John John Fischer wrote: > All, > > Sorry, I meant February 18th, 2009. > > John > > On Wed, 2009-02-11 at 10:48, John Fischer wrote: >> All, >> >> I have reset the timer for Wednesday, February 11th, 2009. >> >> Thanks, >> >> John >