From sacadmin Wed Apr 25 08:50:54 2007 Received: from sac.sfbay.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l3PFosKH001560; Wed, 25 Apr 2007 08:50:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from darrenm@localhost) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/Submit) id l3PFoqpJ001524; Wed, 25 Apr 2007 08:50:52 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 08:50:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Darren J Moffat Message-Id: <200704251550.l3PFoqpJ001524@sac.sfbay.sun.com> To: PSARC@sac.sfbay.sun.com Cc: roland.mainz@nrubsig.org Subject: Default shell environment: machine ksh93/back environment [PSARC/2007/233 Timeout: 05/02/2007] Status: RO Content-Length: 4449 Subject: PSARC FastTrack [05/02/2007]: Default shell environment: machine ksh93/back environment Template Version: @(#)sac_nextcase %I% %G% SMI 1. Introduction 1.1. Project/Component Working Name: Default shell environment: machine ksh93/back environment 1.2. Name of Document Author/Supplier: Author: Roland Mainz 1.3 Date of This Document: 25 April, 2007 4. Technical Description Default shell environment enhancements: machine ksh93/bash environment Description and Justification: This case proposes to introduce a set of enhancements for the default shell environment in Solaris to provide a more user-friendly environment for new users which are not yet familar with all the details in Unix and to provide some help for adminstrators via introducing better system-wide defaults and more configuration options. The proposed changes are: - A change to "/etc/ksh.kshrc" which sets the default prompt (PS1) for interactive ksh93 shell sessions to a value which displays the username, hostname and current working directory and a "$ "-seperator for normal users and "# " with the login name "root" (this follows the default of SuSE Linux and aims at improving the usalibity for novice unix users), e.g. setting the prompt to $ PS1='${LOGNAME}@$(hostname):${PWD/~(El)${HOME}/\~}\$ ' # will result in the following prompt (for user "gisburn" on machine "jupiterb48" with CWD="/home/gisburn/solaris/"): -- snip -- gisburn@jupiterb48:~/solaris$ -- snip -- If the prompt setting (PS1) is not desired as the default, the "/etc/ksh.kshrc" file may be changed by the system administrator, or the user may turn off or reset the prompt in their per-user "~/.kshrc" configuration file, which is executed after "/etc/ksh.kshrc". - "/etc/bash.bashrc" as new file to the system, as a per-system configuration file for interactive bash (Bourne Again Shell). This file works the same way like ksh93's "/etc/ksh.kshrc" (except this one is for the bash shell), e.g. "/etc/bash.bashrc" is sourced before the per-user file "~/.bashrc". The purpose of this file is to provide an admin-customizeable way to set a system-wide defaults interactive bash shell sessions. The default line-editing mode will be set to "gmacs" to match the behaviour of ksh93 (see PSARC 2007/587) and the default prompt (PS1) will be set to to a value which displays the username, hostname and current working directory and a "$ "-seperator for normal users and "# " for uid 0 (this follows the default of SuSE Linux and the default for ksh93 as proposed above). If the "gmacs" editor mode or prompt setting (PS1) is not desired as the default, the "/etc/bash.bashrc" file may be changed by the system administrator, or the user may turn off or reset the editing mode and/or prompt in their per-user "~/.bashrc" configuration file, which is executed after "/etc/bash.bashrc". Note that "/etc/bash.bashrc" is only used in bash initialization; it has no effect on other shells. - "/etc/bash.bash_logout" as a new file to the system as a per-system configuration file for bash login shells. This file is executed at logout time for bash shells which were used as login shell. The current file content should be a file with comments only (for now). Interfaces: (note that both "/etc/bash.bashrc" and "/etc/bash.logout" are delivered via OS/Net to keep the files at the same place as their ksh93 counterparts and "/etc/profile"). Interface Stability Description ========= ========= =========== shell-var "PS1" Committed Shell variable to define the prompt for POSIX(-like) shells /etc/ksh.kshrc Uncommitted Per-system configuration file for interactive ksh93 sessions /etc/bash.bashrc Uncommitted Per-system configuration file for interactive bash sessions /etc/bash.logout Uncommitted Per-system configuration file bash login sessions, executed at user logout time. References: 1) Korn Shell 93 Integration external PSARC case which adds /etc/ksh.kshrc http://www.opensolaris.org/os/community/arc/caselog/2006/587/ 6. Resources and Schedule 6.4. Steering Committee requested information 6.4.1. Consolidation C-team Name: ON 6.5. ARC review type: FastTrack From David.Comay@sun.com Wed May 2 09:26:00 2007 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l42GQ0sG014847 for ; Wed, 2 May 2007 09:26:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l42GP2wg020745 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-EXT@Sun.COM>; Wed, 2 May 2007 09:25:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JHF00B159LRSH00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for PSARC-EXT@Sun.COM (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@Sun.COM); Wed, 02 May 2007 09:25:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from izimbra.SFBay.Sun.COM ([129.146.226.141]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JHF004TC9LQRPD0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for PSARC-EXT@Sun.COM (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@Sun.COM); Wed, 02 May 2007 09:25:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by izimbra.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l42GP2qI118856; Wed, 02 May 2007 09:25:02 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 02 May 2007 09:25:01 -0700 (PDT) From: David.Comay@sun.com Subject: Re: PSARC FastTrack [PSARC/2007/233]: Default shell environment: machine ksh93/back environment In-reply-to: <462F7AEA.7060609@Sun.COM> Sender: comay@izimbra.sfbay.sun.com To: Roland Mainz Cc: PSARC-EXT@sun.com, shell-discuss@opensolaris.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <462F7AEA.7060609@Sun.COM> Status: RO Content-Length: 2335 Roland, I'm definitely supportive of the idea of updating the default shell environment although I have a few questions. > - A change to "/etc/ksh.kshrc" which sets the default prompt (PS1) > for interactive ksh93 shell sessions to a value which displays the > username, hostname and current working directory and a "$ "-seperator > for normal users and "# " with the login name "root" (this follows the > default of SuSE Linux and aims at improving the usalibity for novice unix > users), e.g. setting the prompt to > $ PS1='${LOGNAME}@$(hostname):${PWD/~(El)${HOME}/\~}\$ ' # will result > in the following prompt (for user "gisburn" on machine "jupiterb48" with > CWD="/home/gisburn/solaris/"): > -- snip -- > gisburn@jupiterb48:~/solaris$ > -- snip -- Personally, I find that prompt rather unreadable but I'm open to it. What I'd like to understand is what do other open-source OSs choose in this area? SuSE is one choice, but what about Ubuntu? Fedora? The BSDs? Also, does SuSE have this as a default for just ksh93 or do other bourne-like shells also have this as a default? > - "/etc/bash.bashrc" as new file to the system, as a per-system > configuration file for interactive bash (Bourne Again Shell). This file > works the same way like ksh93's "/etc/ksh.kshrc" (except this one is for > the bash shell), e.g. "/etc/bash.bashrc" is sourced before the per-user > file "~/.bashrc". > The default line-editing mode will be set to "gmacs" to match the behaviour > of ksh93 (see PSARC 2007/587) and the default prompt (PS1) will be set to > to a value which displays the username, hostname and current working > directory and a "$ "-seperator for normal users and "# " for uid 0 > (this follows the default of SuSE Linux and the default for ksh93 as > proposed above). Same question as above for bash - what do other distributions choose in this area? > Interfaces: > (note that both "/etc/bash.bashrc" and "/etc/bash.logout" are delivered > via OS/Net to keep the files at the same place as their ksh93 counterparts > and "/etc/profile"). I understand the rationale for delivering them from the same consolidation that delivers /etc/profile but given that bash is delivered via SFW, it seems that /etc/bash.bashrc and /etc/bash.logout should be delivered out of that consolidatoon as well. dsc From roland.mainz@nrubsig.org Wed May 2 09:48:04 2007 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l42Gm4Ob016513 for ; Wed, 2 May 2007 09:48:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l42Gl6tn025071; Wed, 2 May 2007 09:47:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JHF00607AMHYM00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 02 May 2007 10:47:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sca-ea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.43.24]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JHF00JTQAMGZA80@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 02 May 2007 10:47:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay2.sun.com (relay2.sun.com [150.143.103.24] (may be forged)) by sca-ea-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l42GUZp1009221; Wed, 02 May 2007 16:47:04 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mms02es.sun.com ([150.143.104.34] [150.143.104.34]) by relay2.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-723015; Wed, 02 May 2007 16:46:51 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay2.sun.com (relay2.sun.com [150.143.103.24]) by mms02es.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-894942; Wed, 02 May 2007 16:46:50 +0000 (Z) Received: from mail-in-11.arcor-online.net ([151.189.21.51] [151.189.21.51]) by relay2.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-5791740; Wed, 02 May 2007 16:46:50 +0000 (Z) Received: from mail-in-02-z2.arcor-online.net (mail-in-02-z2.arcor-online.net [151.189.8.14]) by mail-in-11.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1469D1392C; Wed, 02 May 2007 18:46:49 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mail-in-09.arcor-online.net (mail-in-09.arcor-online.net [151.189.21.49]) by mail-in-02-z2.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D059115020; Wed, 02 May 2007 18:46:48 +0200 (CEST) Received: from jupiterb48.nrubsig.org (dslb-084-058-235-204.pools.arcor-ip.net [84.58.235.204]) by mail-in-09.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02A823425E5; Wed, 02 May 2007 18:46:47 +0200 (CEST) Received: from nrubsig.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by jupiterb48.nrubsig.org (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l42GkiUa000736; Wed, 02 May 2007 18:46:45 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 02 May 2007 18:46:44 +0200 From: Roland Mainz Subject: Re: PSARC FastTrack [PSARC/2007/233]: Default shell environment:machine ksh93/back environment Sender: gisburn@jupiterb48.nrubsig.org To: David.Comay@sun.com Cc: PSARC-EXT@sun.com, shell-discuss@opensolaris.org Message-id: <4638C074.CD692B71@nrubsig.org> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.11 sun4u) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <462F7AEA.7060609@Sun.COM> Status: RO Content-Length: 3626 David.Comay@Sun.COM wrote: [snip] > > - A change to "/etc/ksh.kshrc" which sets the default prompt (PS1) > > for interactive ksh93 shell sessions to a value which displays the > > username, hostname and current working directory and a "$ "-seperator > > for normal users and "# " with the login name "root" (this follows the > > default of SuSE Linux and aims at improving the usalibity for novice unix > > users), e.g. setting the prompt to > > $ PS1='${LOGNAME}@$(hostname):${PWD/~(El)${HOME}/\~}\$ ' # will result > > in the following prompt (for user "gisburn" on machine "jupiterb48" with > > CWD="/home/gisburn/solaris/"): > > -- snip -- > > gisburn@jupiterb48:~/solaris$ > > -- snip -- > > Personally, I find that prompt rather unreadable but I'm open to it. > What I'd like to understand is what do other open-source OSs choose in > this area? SuSE is one choice, but what about Ubuntu? Fedora? AFAIK Ubuntu has the same as SuSE (and Joseph Kowalski said that "... Ubuntu 7.04 (the fastest growing distribution and my favorite) does the same thing as SuSE..."). The four RedHat servers we have have been changed to do the same as SuSE (I am not the admin of those machines but someone else thought it may be a good idea to do that globally for all users...). > The BSDs? Traditinally the *BSD distributions use only per-user configuration files... ... and MacOSX has a customer RFE running to get the SuSE/Ubuntu-defaults for editor+PS1 implemented. > Also, does SuSE have this as a default for just ksh93 or do other > bourne-like shells also have this as a default? This is the default for bash and ksh+ksh-clone shells (including ksh93). > > - "/etc/bash.bashrc" as new file to the system, as a per-system > > configuration file for interactive bash (Bourne Again Shell). This file > > works the same way like ksh93's "/etc/ksh.kshrc" (except this one is for > > the bash shell), e.g. "/etc/bash.bashrc" is sourced before the per-user > > file "~/.bashrc". > > > The default line-editing mode will be set to "gmacs" to match the behaviour > > of ksh93 (see PSARC 2007/587) and the default prompt (PS1) will be set to > > to a value which displays the username, hostname and current working > > directory and a "$ "-seperator for normal users and "# " for uid 0 > > (this follows the default of SuSE Linux and the default for ksh93 as > > proposed above). > > Same question as above for bash - what do other distributions choose in > this area? /etc/bash.bashrc and /etc/ksh.kshrc are delivered in SuSE Linux and set the defaults as described above (/etc/ksh.kshrc+gmacs is already covered by an ARC case for ksh93). > > Interfaces: > > (note that both "/etc/bash.bashrc" and "/etc/bash.logout" are delivered > > via OS/Net to keep the files at the same place as their ksh93 counterparts > > and "/etc/profile"). > > I understand the rationale for delivering them from the same > consolidation that delivers /etc/profile but given that bash is > delivered via SFW, it seems that /etc/bash.bashrc and /etc/bash.logout > should be delivered out of that consolidatoon as well. Erm, yes... but Blastwave and others deliver their versions of the bash shell, too - and those shells will look at /etc/* by default... (and as the more or less de-facto maintainer of the stuff I would prefer to keep the stuff together that we can maintain them in one step (=less work for me (yes, I am lazy... :-) ))). ---- Bye, Roland -- __ . . __ (o.\ \/ /.o) roland.mainz@nrubsig.org \__\/\/__/ MPEG specialist, C&&JAVA&&Sun&&Unix programmer /O /==\ O\ TEL +49 641 7950090 (;O/ \/ \O;) From brian.gupta@gmail.com Wed May 2 09:52:22 2007 Received: from newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (newsunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.245]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l42GqMik016959 for ; Wed, 2 May 2007 09:52:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l42GpOPT005737 for <@newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com:PSARC-EXT@sun.com>; Wed, 2 May 2007 10:51:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JHF0070BATPKH00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Wed, 02 May 2007 10:51:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sca-ea-mail-4.sun.com ([192.18.43.22]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JHF00J4IATOZA90@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Wed, 02 May 2007 10:51:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay43i.sun.com ([192.5.209.74]) by sca-ea-mail-4.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l42Gljhp003093 for ; Wed, 02 May 2007 16:51:23 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mms49es.sun.com ([160.41.221.233] [160.41.221.233]) by relay43i.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-412472 for PSARC-EXT@sun.com; Wed, 02 May 2007 16:51:23 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay41i.sun.com ([192.5.209.70] [192.5.209.70]) by mms49es.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-1168213 for PSARC-EXT@sun.com; Wed, 02 May 2007 16:51:22 +0000 (Z) Received: from an-out-0708.google.com ([209.85.132.251] [209.85.132.251]) by relay4i.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-373865 for PSARC-EXT@sun.com; Wed, 02 May 2007 16:51:22 +0000 (Z) Received: by an-out-0708.google.com with SMTP id c2so197619anc for ; Wed, 02 May 2007 09:51:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.100.119.14 with SMTP id r14mr685874anc.1178124681785; Wed, 02 May 2007 09:51:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.100.3.13 with HTTP; Wed, 02 May 2007 09:51:21 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 02 May 2007 12:51:21 -0400 From: Brian Gupta Subject: Re: PSARC FastTrack [PSARC/2007/233]: Default shell environment:machine ksh93/back environment In-reply-to: <4638C074.CD692B71@nrubsig.org> To: PSARC-EXT@sun.com, shell-discuss@opensolaris.org Message-id: <5b5090780705020951r47363b2ctc9ac74d1bca301ac@mail.gmail.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_9Hbi2nnMm24FdfTRdNAwKg)" DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=E6rCozGzWFgZRa81hZl9FjBqFde1KbkX//dXHc9kSz2BZGbCVGmP6ENdqGaeM+z3oXZHna7LaHF1dVEV3kXcy+P3qLOnUBVyunia4+jykn7YTvIV+e1D2pRtxRGcYZNlcpzbX95BbzC0hAcKb3n4ZAgyjAlf+hpwzJz2KEf2CCA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=pvxvErR5H+juVGiEqy9lgAKfS15WfK5kgfx2pWouXf3jhnW3jlEjIj0ufaxA7FRssiImQd1WxTqZS9ruS8KDiJ+seuaS9xUMwOWroPj0JAoYaQkJxUY1imohYBXNIPf4PUTNi0EPHfczCKH9ha+kVLpdlb6Fq3ufymsJ0av2AJY= X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <462F7AEA.7060609@Sun.COM> <4638C074.CD692B71@nrubsig.org> Status: RO Content-Length: 560 --Boundary_(ID_9Hbi2nnMm24FdfTRdNAwKg) Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline FYI - RHEL's default prompt does not show the full path, only the name of the current dir. -Brian --Boundary_(ID_9Hbi2nnMm24FdfTRdNAwKg) Content-type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline FYI - RHEL's default prompt does not show the full path, only the name of the current dir.

-Brian
--Boundary_(ID_9Hbi2nnMm24FdfTRdNAwKg)-- From jek3@sun.com Wed May 2 11:04:03 2007 Received: from newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (newsunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.245]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l42I42TE026092 for ; Wed, 2 May 2007 11:04:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l42I35V5021700; Wed, 2 May 2007 12:03:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JHF00E01E55VO00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 02 May 2007 12:03:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com ([129.146.17.63]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JHF00JTFE54Z7D0@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 02 May 2007 12:03:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [129.150.12.53] (vpn-129-150-12-53.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.12.53]) by jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l42I33fv996368; Wed, 02 May 2007 11:03:03 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 02 May 2007 08:02:47 -1000 From: Joseph Kowalski Subject: Re: PSARC FastTrack [PSARC/2007/233]: Default shell environment: machine ksh93/back environment In-reply-to: To: David.Comay@sun.com Cc: Roland Mainz , PSARC-EXT@sun.com, shell-discuss@opensolaris.org Message-id: <4638D247.7050800@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <462F7AEA.7060609@Sun.COM> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060925) Status: RO Content-Length: 1331 David.Comay@sun.com wrote: > Personally, I find that prompt rather unreadable but I'm open to it. > What I'd like to understand is what do other open-source OSs choose in > this area? SuSE is one choice, but what about Ubuntu? Fedora? The > BSDs? I posted this before, but it may get lost in the noise. Ubuntu is like SuSE. Red Hat EL 5 (which I assume Fedora is like) is similar, but displays only the last component of the path. (I find it interesting that you cite the non-enterprise Fedora rather than the enterprise RHEL.) BSD? No clue. >> Interfaces: >> (note that both "/etc/bash.bashrc" and "/etc/bash.logout" are delivered >> via OS/Net to keep the files at the same place as their ksh93 >> counterparts >> and "/etc/profile"). > > I understand the rationale for delivering them from the same > consolidation that delivers /etc/profile but given that bash is > delivered via SFW, it seems that /etc/bash.bashrc and /etc/bash.logout > should be delivered out of that consolidatoon as well. Unfortunately, that would be a violation of the venerable 1991/061. Only one consolidation can deliver these, and besides, the packaging interactions you would bring upon us would definately not be worth any gain. I didn't note this before, but having to choose one, I'd definately keep these with bash itself. - jek3 From jek3@Sun.COM Wed May 2 12:08:28 2007 Received: from newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (newsunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.245]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l42J8SVh000477 for ; Wed, 2 May 2007 12:08:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l42J7S5O035842; Wed, 2 May 2007 13:07:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JHF00048H4GT500@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 02 May 2007 12:07:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com ([129.146.17.63]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JHF00EAHH4EZOC0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 02 May 2007 12:07:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [129.150.12.53] (vpn-129-150-12-53.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.12.53]) by jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l42J7ODc112058; Wed, 02 May 2007 12:07:25 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 02 May 2007 09:07:09 -1000 From: Joseph Kowalski Subject: Re: PSARC FastTrack [PSARC/2007/233]: Default shell environment: machine ksh93/back environment In-reply-to: <4638D247.7050800@sun.com> To: Joseph Kowalski Cc: David.Comay@Sun.COM, Roland Mainz , PSARC-EXT@Sun.COM, shell-discuss@opensolaris.org Message-id: <4638E15D.5090302@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <462F7AEA.7060609@Sun.COM> <4638D247.7050800@sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060925) Status: RO Content-Length: 870 Joseph Kowalski wrote: >> >> I understand the rationale for delivering them from the same >> consolidation that delivers /etc/profile but given that bash is >> delivered via SFW, it seems that /etc/bash.bashrc and /etc/bash.logout >> should be delivered out of that consolidatoon as well. > Unfortunately, that would be a violation of the venerable 1991/061. > Only one consolidation can deliver these, and besides, the packaging > interactions you would bring upon us would definately not be worth > any gain. > > I didn't note this before, but having to choose one, I'd definately keep > these with bash itself. Let me retract the last paragraph. Change it to "no opinion" on my part. The requirement that its only delivered by one consolidation is the important thing. Either seems acceptable. (I forgot how the source was structured wrt similar files.) - jek3 From roland.mainz@nrubsig.org Wed May 2 12:38:06 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l42Jc5j1001537 for ; Wed, 2 May 2007 12:38:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l42Jb37I028453; Wed, 2 May 2007 20:37:06 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JHF0000NIHUCE00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 02 May 2007 12:37:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com ([192.18.98.34]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JHF00I69IHTJNC0@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 02 May 2007 12:37:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay2.sun.com (relay2.sun.com [150.143.103.24] (may be forged)) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l42HWADY002665; Wed, 02 May 2007 19:37:05 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mms03es.sun.com ([150.143.104.54] [150.143.104.54]) by relay2.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-740628; Wed, 02 May 2007 19:36:38 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay3.sun.com (relay3.sun.com [150.143.103.54]) by mms03es.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-2142364; Wed, 02 May 2007 19:36:38 +0000 (Z) Received: from mail-in-09.arcor-online.net ([151.189.21.49] [151.189.21.49]) by relay3.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-5837504; Wed, 02 May 2007 19:36:38 +0000 (Z) Received: from mail-in-01-z2.arcor-online.net (mail-in-06-z2.arcor-online.net [151.189.8.18]) by mail-in-09.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0A4417B4AC; Wed, 02 May 2007 21:36:37 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mail-in-12.arcor-online.net (mail-in-12.arcor-online.net [151.189.21.52]) by mail-in-01-z2.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9402DC39E9; Wed, 02 May 2007 21:36:37 +0200 (CEST) Received: from jupiterb48.nrubsig.org (dslb-084-058-235-204.pools.arcor-ip.net [84.58.235.204]) by mail-in-12.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E7628C470; Wed, 02 May 2007 21:36:37 +0200 (CEST) Received: from nrubsig.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by jupiterb48.nrubsig.org (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l42JaZvP000787; Wed, 02 May 2007 21:36:36 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 02 May 2007 21:36:35 +0200 From: Roland Mainz Subject: Re: PSARC FastTrack [PSARC/2007/233]: Default shell environment:machine ksh93/back environment Sender: gisburn@jupiterb48.nrubsig.org To: Joseph Kowalski Cc: David.Comay@sun.com, PSARC-EXT@sun.com, shell-discuss@opensolaris.org Message-id: <4638E843.FE9BFADC@nrubsig.org> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.11 sun4u) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <462F7AEA.7060609@Sun.COM> <4638D247.7050800@sun.com> Status: RO Content-Length: 1247 Joseph Kowalski wrote: > David.Comay@sun.com wrote: [snip] > >> Interfaces: > >> (note that both "/etc/bash.bashrc" and "/etc/bash.logout" are delivered > >> via OS/Net to keep the files at the same place as their ksh93 > >> counterparts > >> and "/etc/profile"). > > > > I understand the rationale for delivering them from the same > > consolidation that delivers /etc/profile but given that bash is > > delivered via SFW, it seems that /etc/bash.bashrc and /etc/bash.logout > > should be delivered out of that consolidatoon as well. > > Unfortunately, that would be a violation of the venerable 1991/061. > Only one consolidation can deliver these, and besides, the packaging > interactions you would bring upon us would definately not be worth > any gain. > > I didn't note this before, but having to choose one, I'd definately keep > these with bash itself. ... and I would prefer to keep them together with "/etc/ksh.kshrc", "/etc/profile" and the (future) "/etc/zshrc". Otherwise we run into problems with updating the files and keeping them in sync... ---- Bye, Roland -- __ . . __ (o.\ \/ /.o) roland.mainz@nrubsig.org \__\/\/__/ MPEG specialist, C&&JAVA&&Sun&&Unix programmer /O /==\ O\ TEL +49 641 7950090 (;O/ \/ \O;) From Charles.Debardeleben@sun.com Wed May 2 14:02:35 2007 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l42L2ZNO006614 for ; Wed, 2 May 2007 14:02:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l42L1bcf019485 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-EXT@sun.com>; Wed, 2 May 2007 14:01:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JHF0081DMEQQL00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Wed, 02 May 2007 14:01:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-ea-fw-1.sun.com ([10.4.134.6]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JHF00475MEONXD0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Wed, 02 May 2007 14:01:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d1-sfbay-10.sun.com ([192.18.39.120]) by nwk-ea-fw-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l42L1aIv026030 for ; Wed, 02 May 2007 14:01:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-sfbay-10.sun.com by d1-sfbay-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JHF00301M9UAC00@d1-sfbay-10.sun.com> (original mail from Charles.Debardeleben@Sun.COM) for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Wed, 02 May 2007 14:01:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [129.146.104.69] by d1-sfbay-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JHF00EO8MENVOF0@d1-sfbay-10.sun.com>; Wed, 02 May 2007 14:01:35 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 02 May 2007 13:59:40 -0700 From: Charles Debardeleben Subject: Re: PSARC FastTrack [PSARC/2007/233]: Default shell environment:machine ksh93/back environment In-reply-to: <4638C074.CD692B71@nrubsig.org> Sender: Charles.Debardeleben@sun.com To: Roland Mainz Cc: David.Comay@sun.com, PSARC-EXT@sun.com, shell-discuss@opensolaris.org Message-id: <4638FBBC.2050007@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <462F7AEA.7060609@Sun.COM> <4638C074.CD692B71@nrubsig.org> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060814) Status: RO Content-Length: 3917 Roland Mainz wrote: > David.Comay@Sun.COM wrote: > [snip] > >>> - A change to "/etc/ksh.kshrc" which sets the default prompt (PS1) >>> for interactive ksh93 shell sessions to a value which displays the >>> username, hostname and current working directory and a "$ "-seperator >>> for normal users and "# " with the login name "root" (this follows the >>> default of SuSE Linux and aims at improving the usalibity for novice unix >>> users), e.g. setting the prompt to >>> $ PS1='${LOGNAME}@$(hostname):${PWD/~(El)${HOME}/\~}\$ ' # will result >>> in the following prompt (for user "gisburn" on machine "jupiterb48" with >>> CWD="/home/gisburn/solaris/"): >>> -- snip -- >>> gisburn@jupiterb48:~/solaris$ >>> -- snip -- >>> >> Personally, I find that prompt rather unreadable but I'm open to it. >> What I'd like to understand is what do other open-source OSs choose in >> this area? SuSE is one choice, but what about Ubuntu? Fedora? >> > > AFAIK Ubuntu has the same as SuSE (and Joseph Kowalski said that "... > Ubuntu 7.04 (the fastest growing distribution and my favorite) does the > same thing as SuSE..."). The four RedHat servers we have have been > changed to do the same as SuSE (I am not the admin of those machines but > someone else thought it may be a good idea to do that globally for all > users...). > > >> The BSDs? >> > > Traditinally the *BSD distributions use only per-user configuration > files... > ... and MacOSX has a customer RFE running to get the > SuSE/Ubuntu-defaults for editor+PS1 implemented. > My FreeBSD system leaves the default setting up to whatever the shell has built in. I actually have a preference to not doing so much fancy stuff in the system provided environment, but seeing this discussion I seam to be in the minority in this respect. > >> Also, does SuSE have this as a default for just ksh93 or do other >> bourne-like shells also have this as a default? >> > > This is the default for bash and ksh+ksh-clone shells (including ksh93). > > >>> - "/etc/bash.bashrc" as new file to the system, as a per-system >>> configuration file for interactive bash (Bourne Again Shell). This file >>> works the same way like ksh93's "/etc/ksh.kshrc" (except this one is for >>> the bash shell), e.g. "/etc/bash.bashrc" is sourced before the per-user >>> file "~/.bashrc". >>> >>> The default line-editing mode will be set to "gmacs" to match the behaviour >>> of ksh93 (see PSARC 2007/587) and the default prompt (PS1) will be set to >>> to a value which displays the username, hostname and current working >>> directory and a "$ "-seperator for normal users and "# " for uid 0 >>> (this follows the default of SuSE Linux and the default for ksh93 as >>> proposed above). >>> >> Same question as above for bash - what do other distributions choose in >> this area? >> > > /etc/bash.bashrc and /etc/ksh.kshrc are delivered in SuSE Linux and set > the defaults as described above (/etc/ksh.kshrc+gmacs is already covered > by an ARC case for ksh93). > > >>> Interfaces: >>> (note that both "/etc/bash.bashrc" and "/etc/bash.logout" are delivered >>> via OS/Net to keep the files at the same place as their ksh93 counterparts >>> and "/etc/profile"). >>> >> I understand the rationale for delivering them from the same >> consolidation that delivers /etc/profile but given that bash is >> delivered via SFW, it seems that /etc/bash.bashrc and /etc/bash.logout >> should be delivered out of that consolidatoon as well. >> > > Erm, yes... but Blastwave and others deliver their versions of the bash > shell, too - and those shells will look at /etc/* by default... (and as > the more or less de-facto maintainer of the stuff I would prefer to keep > the stuff together that we can maintain them in one step (=less work for > me (yes, I am lazy... :-) ))). > > ---- > > Bye, > Roland > > From jek3@Sun.COM Wed May 2 14:39:53 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l42Ldq1Q008076 for ; Wed, 2 May 2007 14:39:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l42Lcgg2000524; Wed, 2 May 2007 22:38:54 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JHF00C01O4QT200@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 02 May 2007 15:38:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com ([129.146.17.59]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JHF008TPO4Q3N20@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 02 May 2007 15:38:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [129.150.12.53] (vpn-129-150-12-53.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.12.53]) by jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l42LcmGN145216; Wed, 02 May 2007 14:38:49 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 02 May 2007 11:38:30 -1000 From: Joseph Kowalski Subject: Re: PSARC FastTrack [PSARC/2007/233]: Default shell environment:machine ksh93/back environment In-reply-to: <4638FBBC.2050007@sun.com> To: Charles Debardeleben Cc: Roland Mainz , David.Comay@Sun.COM, PSARC-EXT@Sun.COM, shell-discuss@opensolaris.org Message-id: <463904D6.6060808@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <462F7AEA.7060609@Sun.COM> <4638C074.CD692B71@nrubsig.org> <4638FBBC.2050007@sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060925) Status: RO Content-Length: 561 Charles Debardeleben wrote: > My FreeBSD system leaves the default setting up to whatever the shell > has built in. > I actually have a preference to not doing so much fancy stuff in the > system provided > environment, but seeing this discussion I seam to be in the minority > in this respect. I'm not sure why you say that. I've been more than a bit concerned that it seems to be a discussion between Roland and myself. I think other opinions/views would be appropriate/helpful. BTW: Welcome to the discussion, and thanks for the data point. - jek3 From Darren.Moffat@sun.com Thu May 3 02:26:08 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l439Q7iw004638 for ; Thu, 3 May 2007 02:26:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l439P3GQ020651 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-EXT@sun.com>; Thu, 3 May 2007 10:25:08 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JHG00L1FKTVU300@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Thu, 03 May 2007 02:25:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com ([129.156.42.5]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JHG00JRGKTTHOA0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Thu, 03 May 2007 02:25:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d1-emea-10.sun.com (d1-emea-10.sun.com [192.18.2.120]) by gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l439P4cH002261 for ; Thu, 03 May 2007 09:25:04 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-emea-10.sun.com by d1-emea-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JHG00701KQAEJ00@d1-emea-10.sun.com> (original mail from Darren.Moffat@Sun.COM) for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Thu, 03 May 2007 10:25:04 +0100 (BST) Received: from [129.150.120.43] by d1-emea-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JHG007NZKTR3200@d1-emea-10.sun.com>; Thu, 03 May 2007 10:25:04 +0100 (BST) Date: Thu, 03 May 2007 10:25:03 +0100 From: Darren J Moffat Subject: Re: PSARC FastTrack [PSARC/2007/233]: Default shell environment:machine ksh93/back environment In-reply-to: <463904D6.6060808@sun.com> Sender: Darren.Moffat@sun.com To: Joseph Kowalski Cc: Charles Debardeleben , Roland Mainz , David.Comay@sun.com, PSARC-EXT@sun.com, shell-discuss@opensolaris.org Message-id: <4639AA6F.5070605@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <462F7AEA.7060609@Sun.COM> <4638C074.CD692B71@nrubsig.org> <4638FBBC.2050007@sun.com> <463904D6.6060808@sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0b2 (X11/20070227) Status: RO Content-Length: 1100 I fully support this case, even though it isn't implementing what my PS1 value is set to I believe this is over all goodness. We should all remember that this case isn't about providing the perfect prompt but providing a useful starting point. For me one of the most useful things we can do to help new OpenSolaris distro users, admins and distribution builders is make those OpenSolaris distros less scarey to migrants and old time Solaris users. Since none of the proposed changes impacts users who have already customised their environment I think this case is sufficient to make worthy progress. Now for the record my zsh PS1 is usually: %B%m:%l%(#.#.$)%b For the non zsh among you that says: in bold the hostname followed by the tty and put $ or # on the end depending on being user or root eg. islay:pts/3$ It changes if I start a shell "inside" a teamware or mercurial repository to add {`basename of workspace`} before the trailing $. I'm not suggesting we have the case use my style because most users really don't need to know what tty they are on. -- Darren J Moffat From casper@holland.sun.com Thu May 3 02:31:33 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l439VW8x004778 for ; Thu, 3 May 2007 02:31:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l439UUGH002202; Thu, 3 May 2007 17:30:31 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JHG00M03L2UCX00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Thu, 03 May 2007 02:30:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com ([129.159.237.36]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JHG00JPIL2THOC0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Thu, 03 May 2007 02:30:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from holland (room101 [129.159.248.23]) by sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7) with ESMTP id l439USkA032162; Thu, 03 May 2007 11:30:28 +0200 (MEST) Date: Thu, 03 May 2007 11:30:28 +0200 From: Casper.Dik@Sun.COM Subject: Re: PSARC FastTrack [PSARC/2007/233]: Default shell environment:machine ksh93/back environment In-reply-to: <4639AA6F.5070605@Sun.COM> Sender: casper@holland.sun.com To: Darren J Moffat Cc: Joseph Kowalski , Charles Debardeleben , Roland Mainz , David.Comay@Sun.COM, PSARC-EXT@Sun.COM, shell-discuss@opensolaris.org Message-id: <200705030930.l439USkA032162@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <462F7AEA.7060609@Sun.COM> <4638C074.CD692B71@nrubsig.org> <4638FBBC.2050007@sun.com> <463904D6.6060808@sun.com> <4639AA6F.5070605@Sun.COM> Status: RO Content-Length: 362 >I fully support this case, even though it isn't implementing what my PS1 >value is set to I believe this is over all goodness. Perhaps I'm just weird, but I find it rather strange that for ordinary users the prompt should be set to include their username and the hostname. Neither makes much sense in the "single user on a single system" scenario. Casper From Darren.Moffat@sun.com Fri May 4 03:19:00 2007 Received: from newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (newsunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.245]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l44AIxrD026775 for ; Fri, 4 May 2007 03:18:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l44AHxCj054638 for <@newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com:PSARC-EXT@sun.com>; Fri, 4 May 2007 04:18:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JHI00517HY04500@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Fri, 04 May 2007 04:18:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com ([129.156.42.6]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JHI0012IHXM9420@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Fri, 04 May 2007 04:17:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: from d1-emea-09.sun.com ([192.18.2.119]) by gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l44AHkxG023160 for ; Fri, 04 May 2007 10:17:46 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-emea-09.sun.com by d1-emea-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JHI00F01HTTEA00@d1-emea-09.sun.com> (original mail from Darren.Moffat@Sun.COM) for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Fri, 04 May 2007 11:17:46 +0100 (BST) Received: from [129.156.173.21] by d1-emea-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JHI000KJHXJCR10@d1-emea-09.sun.com> for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Fri, 04 May 2007 11:17:43 +0100 (BST) Date: Fri, 04 May 2007 11:17:43 +0100 From: Darren J Moffat Subject: PSARC/2007/233 Default shell environment: machine ksh93/bash environment In-reply-to: <20070504045537.GB5001@Sun.COM> Sender: Darren.Moffat@sun.com To: PSARC-EXT@sun.com Cc: shell-discuss@opensolaris.org Message-id: <463B0847.2080109@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <46312E4C.1020702@sun.com> <4632B411.9FC4D9C0@nrubsig.org> <46334f71.Fspbbj2lxSDxYvlQ%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <4634E881.7020303@sun.com> <4639e213.HxGcPKKZCCfnNpOr%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <463a071f.riHD0ricfsQYHFDG%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <463A1657.5070504@Sun.Com> <463a44da.yugUJHFxs2nAKwvB%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <463AB26D.5040209@sun.com> <20070504045537.GB5001@Sun.COM> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0b2 (X11/20070326) Status: RO Content-Length: 532 The timer for this case was extended by one week, the timer now expires on Wednesday 9th May 2007. A point or two of order: Please keep comments specific to the proposal under review. Please keep the feedback technical: the following are good: change x causes a regression change x is incomplete change x has a security problem change x won't work with the foo part of the system the following aren't relevant for architecture review: I prefer y over x thing x that is unrelated should be done first -- Darren J Moffat From roland.mainz@nrubsig.org Fri May 4 19:51:23 2007 Received: from newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (newsunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.245]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l452pNuD029804 for ; Fri, 4 May 2007 19:51:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l452oM19010339; Fri, 4 May 2007 20:50:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JHJ0090FRVY3Z00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Fri, 04 May 2007 19:50:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.98.31]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JHJ003X1RVRZIE0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Fri, 04 May 2007 19:50:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay43i.sun.com ([192.5.209.74]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l452oEIb002998; Sat, 05 May 2007 02:50:15 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mms48es.sun.com ([160.41.221.231] [160.41.221.231]) by relay43i.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-550765; Sat, 05 May 2007 02:50:14 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay42i.sun.com ([192.5.209.72] [192.5.209.72]) by mms48es.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-974474; Sat, 05 May 2007 02:50:13 +0000 (Z) Received: from mail-in-07.arcor-online.net ([151.189.21.47] [151.189.21.47]) by relay4i.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-4271669; Sat, 05 May 2007 02:50:13 +0000 (Z) Received: from mail-in-01-z2.arcor-online.net (mail-in-10-z2.arcor-online.net [151.189.8.27]) by mail-in-07.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43B2524BCFB; Sat, 05 May 2007 04:50:13 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mail-in-06.arcor-online.net (mail-in-06.arcor-online.net [151.189.21.46]) by mail-in-01-z2.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35D3823D4EF; Sat, 05 May 2007 04:50:13 +0200 (CEST) Received: from jupiterb48.nrubsig.org (dslb-084-059-002-154.pools.arcor-ip.net [84.59.2.154]) by mail-in-06.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 144D135E5A8; Sat, 05 May 2007 04:50:13 +0200 (CEST) Received: from nrubsig.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by jupiterb48.nrubsig.org (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l452oAkc001558; Sat, 05 May 2007 04:50:11 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sat, 05 May 2007 04:50:10 +0200 From: Roland Mainz Subject: Re: PSARC FastTrack [PSARC/2007/233]: Default shell environment:machine ksh93/back environment Sender: gisburn@jupiterb48.nrubsig.org To: Casper.Dik@sun.com Cc: Darren J Moffat , Joseph Kowalski , Charles Debardeleben , David.Comay@sun.com, PSARC-EXT@sun.com, shell-discuss@opensolaris.org Message-id: <463BF0E2.AC923F87@nrubsig.org> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.11 sun4u) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <462F7AEA.7060609@Sun.COM> <4638C074.CD692B71@nrubsig.org> <4638FBBC.2050007@sun.com> <463904D6.6060808@sun.com> <4639AA6F.5070605@Sun.COM> <200705030930.l439USkA032162@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> Status: RO Content-Length: 1043 Casper.Dik@Sun.COM wrote: > > >I fully support this case, even though it isn't implementing what my PS1 > >value is set to I believe this is over all goodness. > > Perhaps I'm just weird, but I find it rather strange that for ordinary > users the prompt should be set to include their username and the > hostname. > > Neither makes much sense in the "single user on a single system" scenario. In a "single user on a single system"-scenario the user is usually being able to set the prompt to any value he/she prefers... ... the whole "default shell environment"-cases center around "better defaults for beginners" and not "presonal preferences for the professionals/admins/developers" (who likely start ranting about the "defaults" and change them to their preferred values in their presonal config files (e.g. ~/.profile, ~/.bashrc, ~/.kshrc etc.)) ... ---- Bye, Roland -- __ . . __ (o.\ \/ /.o) roland.mainz@nrubsig.org \__\/\/__/ MPEG specialist, C&&JAVA&&Sun&&Unix programmer /O /==\ O\ TEL +49 641 7950090 (;O/ \/ \O;) From roland.mainz@nrubsig.org Fri May 4 20:28:47 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l453Skhr001042 for ; Fri, 4 May 2007 20:28:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l453RkoA026118; Sat, 5 May 2007 04:27:46 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JHJ00F01TM9FD00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Fri, 04 May 2007 21:27:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sca-ea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.43.24]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JHJ00BXQTM9PLC0@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Fri, 04 May 2007 21:27:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay24.sun.com (ip192-12-251-74.block6.us.syntegra.com [192.12.251.74]) by sca-ea-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l453RiV7010980; Sat, 05 May 2007 03:27:44 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mms23es.sun.com ([150.143.232.54] [150.143.232.54]) by relay24.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-397288; Sat, 05 May 2007 03:27:44 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay22.sun.com (relay22.sun.com [192.12.251.34]) by mms23es.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-950351; Sat, 05 May 2007 03:27:43 +0000 (Z) Received: from mail-in-12.arcor-online.net ([151.189.21.52] [151.189.21.52]) by relay22.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-11368264; Sat, 05 May 2007 03:27:43 +0000 (Z) Received: from mail-in-02-z2.arcor-online.net (mail-in-02-z2.arcor-online.net [151.189.8.14]) by mail-in-12.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CB354CBDD; Sat, 05 May 2007 05:27:43 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mail-in-03.arcor-online.net (mail-in-03.arcor-online.net [151.189.21.43]) by mail-in-02-z2.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF920114AA7; Sat, 05 May 2007 05:27:42 +0200 (CEST) Received: from jupiterb48.nrubsig.org (dslb-084-059-002-154.pools.arcor-ip.net [84.59.2.154]) by mail-in-03.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id CECD0495F; Sat, 05 May 2007 05:27:42 +0200 (CEST) Received: from nrubsig.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by jupiterb48.nrubsig.org (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l453Rflh001585; Sat, 05 May 2007 05:27:41 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sat, 05 May 2007 05:27:41 +0200 From: Roland Mainz Subject: Re: PSARC FastTrack [PSARC/2007/233]: Default shellenvironment:machine ksh93/back environment Sender: gisburn@jupiterb48.nrubsig.org To: Charles Debardeleben Cc: David.Comay@sun.com, PSARC-EXT@sun.com, shell-discuss@opensolaris.org Message-id: <463BF9AD.7B797D50@nrubsig.org> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.11 sun4u) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <462F7AEA.7060609@Sun.COM> <4638C074.CD692B71@nrubsig.org> <4638FBBC.2050007@sun.com> Status: RO Content-Length: 1315 Charles Debardeleben wrote: > Roland Mainz wrote: > > David.Comay@Sun.COM wrote: [snip] > > Traditinally the *BSD distributions use only per-user configuration > > files... > > ... and MacOSX has a customer RFE running to get the > > SuSE/Ubuntu-defaults for editor+PS1 implemented. > > My FreeBSD system leaves the default setting up to whatever the shell > has built in. > I actually have a preference to not doing so much fancy stuff in the > system provided > environment, but seeing this discussion I seam to be in the minority in > this respect. Umpf... ;-/ The whole "better default shell environment"-cases center around "better defaults for beginners" (following the lead of distributions like SuSE, Ubuntu and Debian 4.0) and not "personal preferences for the professionals/admins/developers" (who likely start ranting about the "defaults" and are able to change them to match their preferences in their per-user configuration files. I agree that the defaults are not "perfect" for experts but they are very helpfull for "beginners" (which are usually not able to change this setting without learning the shell first). ---- Bye, Roland -- __ . . __ (o.\ \/ /.o) roland.mainz@nrubsig.org \__\/\/__/ MPEG specialist, C&&JAVA&&Sun&&Unix programmer /O /==\ O\ TEL +49 641 7950090 (;O/ \/ \O;) From casper@holland.sun.com Sat May 5 02:33:04 2007 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l459X3s5011501 for ; Sat, 5 May 2007 02:33:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l459W3wG018957; Sat, 5 May 2007 02:32:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JHK0060FAHFXU00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Sat, 05 May 2007 03:32:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com ([129.159.237.36]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JHK007PQAHEQP70@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Sat, 05 May 2007 03:32:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from holland (room101 [129.159.248.23]) by sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7) with ESMTP id l459W1jn008092; Sat, 05 May 2007 11:32:01 +0200 (MEST) Date: Sat, 05 May 2007 11:32:01 +0200 From: Casper.Dik@sun.com Subject: Re: PSARC FastTrack [PSARC/2007/233]: Default shellenvironment:machine ksh93/back environment In-reply-to: <463BF9AD.7B797D50@nrubsig.org> Sender: casper@holland.sun.com To: Roland Mainz Cc: Charles Debardeleben , David.Comay@sun.com, PSARC-EXT@sun.com, shell-discuss@opensolaris.org Message-id: <200705050932.l459W1jn008092@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <462F7AEA.7060609@Sun.COM> <4638C074.CD692B71@nrubsig.org> <4638FBBC.2050007@sun.com> <463BF9AD.7B797D50@nrubsig.org> Status: RO Content-Length: 919 >Umpf... ;-/ >The whole "better default shell environment"-cases center around "better >defaults for beginners" (following the lead of distributions like SuSE, >Ubuntu and Debian 4.0) and not "personal preferences for the >professionals/admins/developers" (who likely start ranting about the >"defaults" and are able to change them to match their preferences in >their per-user configuration files. I agree that the defaults are not >"perfect" for experts but they are very helpfull for "beginners" (which >are usually not able to change this setting without learning the shell >first). Then it occurs to me that setting them in /etc/profile, /etc/*rc* is WRONG. By all means, refresh /etc/skel and have beginners populate their accounts from there (as the tools do or should do) But changes to /etc/profile and the like affect *all* users, including those who feel that the current defaults are just fine. Casper From schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de Sat May 5 02:48:12 2007 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l459mBSH011863 for ; Sat, 5 May 2007 02:48:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l459lCOh023217; Sat, 5 May 2007 02:47:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JHK00809B6NHM00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Sat, 05 May 2007 03:47:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com ([192.18.98.36]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JHK0073SB6NQZ80@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Sat, 05 May 2007 03:47:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay44i.sun.com ([192.5.209.118]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l459lASq015693; Sat, 05 May 2007 09:47:10 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mms49es.sun.com ([160.41.221.233] [160.41.221.233]) by relay44i.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-562995; Sat, 05 May 2007 09:47:10 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay44i.sun.com ([192.5.209.118] [192.5.209.118]) by mms49es.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-1141384; Sat, 05 May 2007 09:47:10 +0000 (Z) Received: from mailhub.fokus.fraunhofer.de ([193.174.154.14] [193.174.154.14]) by relay4i.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-4357906; Sat, 05 May 2007 09:47:09 +0000 (Z) Received: from burner.fokus.fraunhofer.de (burner [10.147.65.166]) by mailhub.fokus.fraunhofer.de (8.11.6p2/8.11.6) with ESMTP id l459l4f21412; Sat, 05 May 2007 11:47:04 +0200 (MEST) Received: (from jes@localhost) by burner.fokus.fraunhofer.de (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/Submit) id l459kYa4013864; Sat, 05 May 2007 11:46:34 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sat, 05 May 2007 11:46:33 +0200 From: Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (Joerg Schilling) Subject: Re: [shell-discuss] Re: PSARC FastTrack [PSARC/2007/233]: Default shellenvironment:machine ksh93/back environment In-reply-to: <200705050932.l459W1jn008092@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> Sender: schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de To: shell-discuss@opensolaris.org, roland.mainz@nrubsig.org Cc: shell-discuss@opensolaris.org, psarc-ext@sun.com, David.Comay@sun.com, Charles.Debardeleben@sun.com Message-id: <463c5279.nvAo/H6FzWkEfTNH%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <462F7AEA.7060609@Sun.COM> <4638C074.CD692B71@nrubsig.org> <4638FBBC.2050007@sun.com> <463BF9AD.7B797D50@nrubsig.org> <200705050932.l459W1jn008092@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> User-Agent: nail 11.22 3/20/05 Status: RO Content-Length: 1743 Casper.Dik@Sun.COM wrote: > > >Umpf... ;-/ > >The whole "better default shell environment"-cases center around "better > >defaults for beginners" (following the lead of distributions like SuSE, > >Ubuntu and Debian 4.0) and not "personal preferences for the > >professionals/admins/developers" (who likely start ranting about the > >"defaults" and are able to change them to match their preferences in > >their per-user configuration files. I agree that the defaults are not > >"perfect" for experts but they are very helpfull for "beginners" (which > >are usually not able to change this setting without learning the shell > >first). > > Then it occurs to me that setting them in /etc/profile, /etc/*rc* > is WRONG. > > By all means, refresh /etc/skel and have beginners populate > their accounts from there (as the tools do or should do) This seems to be the best way. > But changes to /etc/profile and the like affect *all* users, including > those who feel that the current defaults are just fine. I don't like to be forced to reverse default settings from /etc/profile. Common practice on UNIX was always "go and copy yuor ~/.?* from another person and later change them and try to understand them". This aligns with /etc/skel Putting beginners defaults into /etc/* is wrong for two reasons: - they force all user to use them - their content is "hidden" from the beginners because the files are not in the personal homedirectory. Jörg -- EMail:joerg@schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin js@cs.tu-berlin.de (uni) schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily From Charles.Debardeleben@Sun.COM Mon May 7 10:55:32 2007 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l47HtVCD017854 for ; Mon, 7 May 2007 10:55:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l47HsTpC013668 for <@sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-EXT@sun.com>; Mon, 7 May 2007 10:54:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JHO00L01N2T9V00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Mon, 07 May 2007 10:54:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-ea-fw-1.sun.com ([10.4.134.5]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JHO00IEEN2SXRA0@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Mon, 07 May 2007 10:54:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d1-sfbay-09.sun.com ([192.18.39.119]) by nwk-ea-fw-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l47HsSs7028997 for ; Mon, 07 May 2007 10:54:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-sfbay-09.sun.com by d1-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JHO00701MTGJI00@d1-sfbay-09.sun.com> (original mail from Charles.Debardeleben@Sun.COM) for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Mon, 07 May 2007 10:54:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nat.cfdhome.com ([67.100.119.58]) by d1-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JHO0063YN2PRCMX@d1-sfbay-09.sun.com>; Mon, 07 May 2007 10:54:25 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 10:55:12 -0700 From: Charles DeBardeleben Subject: Re: [shell-discuss] Re: PSARC FastTrack [PSARC/2007/233]: Default shellenvironment:machine ksh93/back environment In-reply-to: <463c5279.nvAo/H6FzWkEfTNH%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> Sender: Charles.Debardeleben@Sun.COM To: Joerg Schilling Cc: shell-discuss@opensolaris.org, roland.mainz@nrubsig.org, PSARC-EXT@Sun.COM, David.Comay@Sun.COM Message-id: <463F6800.1000705@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <462F7AEA.7060609@Sun.COM> <4638C074.CD692B71@nrubsig.org> <4638FBBC.2050007@sun.com> <463BF9AD.7B797D50@nrubsig.org> <200705050932.l459W1jn008092@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> <463c5279.nvAo/H6FzWkEfTNH%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.0 (X11/20070421) Status: RO Content-Length: 2220 Joerg Schilling wrote: > Casper.Dik@Sun.COM wrote: > > >>> Umpf... ;-/ >>> The whole "better default shell environment"-cases center around "better >>> defaults for beginners" (following the lead of distributions like SuSE, >>> Ubuntu and Debian 4.0) and not "personal preferences for the >>> professionals/admins/developers" (who likely start ranting about the >>> "defaults" and are able to change them to match their preferences in >>> their per-user configuration files. I agree that the defaults are not >>> "perfect" for experts but they are very helpfull for "beginners" (which >>> are usually not able to change this setting without learning the shell >>> first). >>> >> Then it occurs to me that setting them in /etc/profile, /etc/*rc* >> is WRONG. >> >> By all means, refresh /etc/skel and have beginners populate >> their accounts from there (as the tools do or should do) >> > > This seems to be the best way. > > >> But changes to /etc/profile and the like affect *all* users, including >> those who feel that the current defaults are just fine. >> > > I don't like to be forced to reverse default settings from /etc/profile. > > Common practice on UNIX was always "go and copy yuor ~/.?* from another > person and later change them and try to understand them". This aligns > with /etc/skel > > Putting beginners defaults into /etc/* is wrong for two reasons: > > - they force all user to use them > > - their content is "hidden" from the beginners because the > files are not in the personal homedirectory. > > Jörg > I third this idea. In addition to the previously mentioned reasons, I think you can add that there is risk of breaking "users" with the upgrade if it is in /etc/profile. It may turn out that the broken "user" is not a user at all, but a poorly designed subsystem that runs a daemon as a user and is sensitve to the environment. And as I said before, I am for the system setting up as little environment as possible for the user. There are times where the environment gets in the way. There have been many times where I have needed to run "env - /bin/sh" followed by ". /home/gatekeeper/.profile" in order to get the xyz gate to build for me. -Charles From binarycrusader@gmail.com Mon May 7 11:39:09 2007 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l47Id927019223 for ; Mon, 7 May 2007 11:39:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l47Ic8pn001996 for <@sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-EXT@sun.com>; Mon, 7 May 2007 11:38:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JHO0000HP3K3Q00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Mon, 07 May 2007 11:38:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sca-ea-mail-3.sun.com ([192.18.43.21]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JHO00MGZP3JIY20@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Mon, 07 May 2007 11:38:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay3.sun.com (relay3.sun.com [150.143.103.54] (may be forged)) by sca-ea-mail-3.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l47IaxOc015612 for ; Mon, 07 May 2007 18:38:07 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mms05es.sun.com ([150.143.104.94] [150.143.104.94]) by relay3.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-1227171 for PSARC-EXT@sun.com; Mon, 07 May 2007 18:36:23 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay1.sun.com (relay1.sun.com [150.143.103.14]) by mms05es.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-2596852 for PSARC-EXT@sun.com; Mon, 07 May 2007 18:36:23 +0000 (Z) Received: from hu-out-0506.google.com ([72.14.214.228] [72.14.214.228]) by relay1.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-10283271 for PSARC-EXT@sun.com; Mon, 07 May 2007 18:36:22 +0000 (Z) Received: by hu-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id 35so3246182hue for ; Mon, 07 May 2007 11:36:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.78.134.12 with SMTP id h12mr963737hud.1178562981327; Mon, 07 May 2007 11:36:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.78.21.13 with HTTP; Mon, 07 May 2007 11:36:21 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 13:36:21 -0500 From: Shawn Walker Subject: Re: [shell-discuss] Re: PSARC FastTrack [PSARC/2007/233]: Default shellenvironment:machine ksh93/back environment In-reply-to: <200705050932.l459W1jn008092@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> To: Shells discussion Cc: Roland Mainz , David.Comay@sun.com, Charles Debardeleben , PSARC-EXT@sun.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=Fm0fMHgrpaVDNtoPrV8Mlb0xGUUdgdIcXE5DxgmLwzrtBdCaJUCi4USaH/SmBHMqAAVuIHrftLR1/FU1hHByEG6bmAVASY8bXiu9FZgz2twmWeFT7sgBtnD3mcNGZvEZALK5UmtGxfe7vQAZqn5mJr8j/Ne6lh8ucY7ZGZAPrkE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=R8NM/c42vxaDe1oGDsRMKLY4DK+TEgNH6NMTGNmP7pfmx2DHyfwOWUkPj5j1ri6OI+gn3UV1DO68/weZHnw2cNZn/G95MKhutCnmR2csinXHUjuBH3ecZlo/35YRo+FUAi84UN2BOFmKvzTtNNasZxvLiUJHUzh0w64Lhly0pGY= X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <462F7AEA.7060609@Sun.COM> <4638C074.CD692B71@nrubsig.org> <4638FBBC.2050007@sun.com> <463BF9AD.7B797D50@nrubsig.org> <200705050932.l459W1jn008092@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> Status: RO Content-Length: 1941 On 05/05/07, Casper.Dik@sun.com wrote: > > >Umpf... ;-/ > >The whole "better default shell environment"-cases center around "better > >defaults for beginners" (following the lead of distributions like SuSE, > >Ubuntu and Debian 4.0) and not "personal preferences for the > >professionals/admins/developers" (who likely start ranting about the > >"defaults" and are able to change them to match their preferences in > >their per-user configuration files. I agree that the defaults are not > >"perfect" for experts but they are very helpfull for "beginners" (which > >are usually not able to change this setting without learning the shell > >first). > > Then it occurs to me that setting them in /etc/profile, /etc/*rc* > is WRONG. > > By all means, refresh /etc/skel and have beginners populate > their accounts from there (as the tools do or should do) > > But changes to /etc/profile and the like affect *all* users, including > those who feel that the current defaults are just fine. But then we are back to the same problem we started with. Most would agree that the current defaults are not "fine." They may be "fine" for experienced users, or those that have used Solaris before, but for "new" or other users, they are not very pleasant. Surely there must be a compromise here. Maybe an install-time option that lets you select the initial setup style? ("standard" or "advanced"?) That way you could still do the "skel" thing, but just have the installer copy them to the right place? I know you said the tools should get them from the right place, but does that really happen? /etc/skel is fine with me, as long as the user accounts created during installation have a chance to get the "new" defaults found /etc/skel automatically. -- "Less is only more where more is no good." --Frank Lloyd Wright Shawn Walker, Software and Systems Analyst binarycrusader@gmail.com - http://binarycrusader.blogspot.com/ From casper@holland.sun.com Mon May 7 11:48:11 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l47Im9Jj019516 for ; Mon, 7 May 2007 11:48:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l47Il42k023413; Tue, 8 May 2007 02:47:07 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JHO00B03PIIN800@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Mon, 07 May 2007 12:47:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com ([129.159.237.36]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JHO001GSPIGTE80@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Mon, 07 May 2007 12:47:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from holland (room101 [129.159.248.23]) by sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7) with ESMTP id l47Il34B043865; Mon, 07 May 2007 20:47:03 +0200 (MEST) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 20:47:03 +0200 From: Casper.Dik@sun.com Subject: Re: [shell-discuss] Re: PSARC FastTrack [PSARC/2007/233]: Default shellenvironment:machine ksh93/back environment In-reply-to: Sender: casper@holland.sun.com To: Shells discussion Cc: David.Comay@sun.com, PSARC-EXT@sun.com, Charles Debardeleben Message-id: <200705071847.l47Il34B043865@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <462F7AEA.7060609@Sun.COM> <4638C074.CD692B71@nrubsig.org> <4638FBBC.2050007@sun.com> <463BF9AD.7B797D50@nrubsig.org> <200705050932.l459W1jn008092@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> Status: RO Content-Length: 2038 >But then we are back to the same problem we started with. Most would >agree that the current defaults are not "fine." No we're not back were we started; I strongly believe that existing users run an extremely large risk from anything dumped in /etc. New users benefit from /etc/skel and so we are NOT back were we started from. >They may be "fine" for experienced users, or those that have used >Solaris before, but for "new" or other users, they are not very >pleasant. No argument, but - we can't really agree on the proper new defaults - adding them to /etc/* affects experienced old users and new users alike. >Surely there must be a compromise here. Maybe an install-time option >that lets you select the initial setup style? ("standard" or >"advanced"?) > >That way you could still do the "skel" thing, but just have the >installer copy them to the right place? Sorry, I don't follow. /etc/skel is there to populate all new accounts from. New accounts will get the "advanced" defaults. >I know you said the tools should get them from the right place, but >does that really happen? If the architecture of this case is to be complete, then yes. >/etc/skel is fine with me, as long as the user accounts created during >installation have a chance to get the "new" defaults found /etc/skel >automatically. Absolutely. I cannot agree with a case which changes the default for ALL users, existing and otherwise, on upgrade (or fresh install of a home directory client) I cannot agree with a case which makes Solaris X systems behave radically differently from Solaris X+1 because of different PATH, MANPATH, PAGER settings. I have no problem with a case which radically alters /etc/skell and makes sure that the files found there are used to good effect. Also make sure to check the pretty horrid i.etcprofile class action script. Other considerations are the type of the /etc/skel files and the /etc/*rc files. They're currently all "e" files, probably rightly so, but that seriously complicates matters. Casper From Nicolas.Williams@sun.com Mon May 7 11:50:18 2007 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l47IoIDQ019572 for ; Mon, 7 May 2007 11:50:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l47InHZv004386; Mon, 7 May 2007 11:49:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JHO00B0LPM5XG00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Mon, 07 May 2007 12:49:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: from binky.central.sun.com ([129.153.128.104]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JHO001WRPM4T480@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Mon, 07 May 2007 12:49:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: from binky.central.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by binky.central.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l47Im6AB009901; Mon, 07 May 2007 13:48:06 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from nw141292@localhost) by binky.central.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/Submit) id l47Im6ZN009900; Mon, 07 May 2007 13:48:06 -0500 (CDT) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 13:48:05 -0500 From: Nicolas Williams Subject: Re: PSARC FastTrack [PSARC/2007/233]: Default shellenvironment:machine ksh93/back environment In-reply-to: <200705050932.l459W1jn008092@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> To: Casper.Dik@sun.com Cc: Roland Mainz , shell-discuss@opensolaris.org, Charles Debardeleben , PSARC-EXT@sun.com Message-id: <20070507184805.GH9159@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <462F7AEA.7060609@Sun.COM> <4638C074.CD692B71@nrubsig.org> <4638FBBC.2050007@sun.com> <463BF9AD.7B797D50@nrubsig.org> <200705050932.l459W1jn008092@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> X-Authentication-warning: binky.central.sun.com: nw141292 set sender to Nicolas.Williams@sun.com using -f User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.7i Status: RO Content-Length: 410 On Sat, May 05, 2007 at 11:32:01AM +0200, Casper.Dik@Sun.COM wrote: > Then it occurs to me that setting them in /etc/profile, /etc/*rc* > is WRONG. Right: how does one write class action scripts to update these shell scripts? > By all means, refresh /etc/skel and have beginners populate > their accounts from there (as the tools do or should do) And/or change man's default PAGER/MANPATH, etc... Nico -- From casper@holland.sun.com Mon May 7 11:55:08 2007 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l47It8ec020015 for ; Mon, 7 May 2007 11:55:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l47Is4aI005141; Mon, 7 May 2007 11:54:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JHO00005PU7RZ00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Mon, 07 May 2007 11:54:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com ([129.159.237.36]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JHO00MW2PU6IY40@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Mon, 07 May 2007 11:54:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from holland (room101 [129.159.248.23]) by sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7) with ESMTP id l47Is5kq049434; Mon, 07 May 2007 20:54:05 +0200 (MEST) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 20:54:05 +0200 From: Casper.Dik@Sun.COM Subject: Re: PSARC FastTrack [PSARC/2007/233]: Default shellenvironment:machine ksh93/back environment In-reply-to: <20070507184805.GH9159@Sun.COM> Sender: casper@holland.sun.com To: Nicolas Williams Cc: Roland Mainz , shell-discuss@opensolaris.org, Charles Debardeleben , PSARC-EXT@Sun.COM Message-id: <200705071854.l47Is5kq049434@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <462F7AEA.7060609@Sun.COM> <4638C074.CD692B71@nrubsig.org> <4638FBBC.2050007@sun.com> <463BF9AD.7B797D50@nrubsig.org> <200705050932.l459W1jn008092@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> <20070507184805.GH9159@Sun.COM> Status: RO Content-Length: 437 >On Sat, May 05, 2007 at 11:32:01AM +0200, Casper.Dik@Sun.COM wrote: >> Then it occurs to me that setting them in /etc/profile, /etc/*rc* >> is WRONG. > >Right: how does one write class action scripts to update these shell >scripts? > >> By all means, refresh /etc/skel and have beginners populate >> their accounts from there (as the tools do or should do) > >And/or change man's default PAGER/MANPATH, etc... Those too, yes. Casper From joshhurst@gmail.com Mon May 7 12:33:59 2007 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l47JXxs5021120 for ; Mon, 7 May 2007 12:33:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l47JWv4V004724 for <@newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com:PSARC-EXT@sun.com>; Mon, 7 May 2007 12:32:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JHO00FI5RMYNH00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Mon, 07 May 2007 13:32:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com ([192.18.98.36]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JHO001UARMXTEC0@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Mon, 07 May 2007 13:32:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay24.sun.com (ip192-12-251-74.block6.us.syntegra.com [192.12.251.74]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l47JWuvL022726 for ; Mon, 07 May 2007 19:32:57 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mms24es.sun.com ([150.143.232.74] [150.143.232.74]) by relay24.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-538188 for PSARC-EXT@sun.com; Mon, 07 May 2007 19:32:56 +0000 (Z) Received: from mms23bas.mms.us.syntegra.com (relay23.mms.us.syntegra.com [192.12.251.50]) by mms24es.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-528742 for PSARC-EXT@sun.com; Mon, 07 May 2007 19:32:56 +0000 (Z) Received: from nz-out-0506.google.com ([64.233.162.232] [64.233.162.232]) by relay23.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-13184119 for PSARC-EXT@sun.com; Mon, 07 May 2007 19:32:56 +0000 (Z) Received: by nz-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id m7so1745937nzf for ; Mon, 07 May 2007 12:32:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.115.95.1 with SMTP id x1mr2265957wal.1178566374423; Mon, 07 May 2007 12:32:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.115.17.9 with HTTP; Mon, 07 May 2007 12:32:54 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 21:32:54 +0200 From: Josh Hurst Subject: Re: [shell-discuss] Re: PSARC FastTrack [PSARC/2007/233]: Default shellenvironment:machine ksh93/back environment In-reply-to: <200705071847.l47Il34B043865@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> To: Shells discussion Cc: David.Comay@sun.com, Charles Debardeleben , PSARC-EXT@sun.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=VuLWkZ0ayNYX1yl1L1BlcXE2N4M07JC2yCz5nJX0lik3XAtuMycbw5JTru4WtbJjfqe7yBr4RZ+AYwoUKH+YcMPFH4EMn+cN2Sj3UdkpCPIsbS2OyCEMEok2GO16Rc6MKpC4r3GBCWRbgLtHgl34v5JSd+0EcJNoCVVLXFi5K4Q= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=sPmpXa25HSTMVyr3A0677DwttsDLpHUA6p5iA2jQP2tTSZVNG/pBep2pFHUu0nunfhnd25nyoR5exRT2ZhpOn4d/gIvOqsGV5RORZk8HR0g3f40UztxTIkj+7xQ4LX7yL0/S/uLJF4GFWtkJaAoOMr+UlpiyvKZJfubmtJhuh2U= X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <462F7AEA.7060609@Sun.COM> <4638C074.CD692B71@nrubsig.org> <4638FBBC.2050007@sun.com> <463BF9AD.7B797D50@nrubsig.org> <200705050932.l459W1jn008092@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> <200705071847.l47Il34B043865@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> Status: RO Content-Length: 763 On 5/7/07, Casper.Dik@sun.com wrote: > > >But then we are back to the same problem we started with. Most would > >agree that the current defaults are not "fine." > > No we're not back were we started; I strongly believe that existing > users run an extremely large risk from anything dumped in /etc. In that case you are no longer allowed to update bash or ksh. Never ever again. Freeze bash, freeze ksh and disallow any updates because this involves the extremely large risk that users run into new defaults set by upstream. Do you see how silly this is? The upstream authors provide built in defaults and Solaris can set defaults in /etc/bash.bashrc and /etc/ksh93.kshrc, overriding the built in defaults. Both are vendor defaults. Josh From Nicolas.Williams@sun.com Mon May 7 12:54:39 2007 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l47Jsdrj021919 for ; Mon, 7 May 2007 12:54:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l47JrYNJ017585; Mon, 7 May 2007 12:53:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JHO00LPYSLBNI30@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Mon, 07 May 2007 12:53:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from binky.central.sun.com ([129.153.128.104]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JHO00HMASBKK470@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Mon, 07 May 2007 12:47:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from binky.central.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by binky.central.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l47JkXKg009952; Mon, 07 May 2007 14:46:33 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from nw141292@localhost) by binky.central.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/Submit) id l47JkXlH009951; Mon, 07 May 2007 14:46:33 -0500 (CDT) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 14:46:33 -0500 From: Nicolas Williams Subject: Re: [shell-discuss] Re: PSARC FastTrack [PSARC/2007/233]: Default shellenvironment:machine ksh93/back environment In-reply-to: To: Josh Hurst Cc: Shells discussion , Charles Debardeleben , PSARC-EXT@sun.com Message-id: <20070507194632.GA9947@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <462F7AEA.7060609@Sun.COM> <4638C074.CD692B71@nrubsig.org> <4638FBBC.2050007@sun.com> <463BF9AD.7B797D50@nrubsig.org> <200705050932.l459W1jn008092@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> <200705071847.l47Il34B043865@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> X-Authentication-warning: binky.central.sun.com: nw141292 set sender to Nicolas.Williams@sun.com using -f User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.7i Status: RO Content-Length: 1388 On Mon, May 07, 2007 at 09:32:54PM +0200, Josh Hurst wrote: > On 5/7/07, Casper.Dik@sun.com wrote: > > > >>But then we are back to the same problem we started with. Most would > >>agree that the current defaults are not "fine." > > > >No we're not back were we started; I strongly believe that existing > >users run an extremely large risk from anything dumped in /etc. > > In that case you are no longer allowed to update bash or ksh. Never > ever again. Freeze bash, freeze ksh and disallow any updates because > this involves the extremely large risk that users run into new > defaults set by upstream. > > Do you see how silly this is? The upstream authors provide built in > defaults and Solaris can set defaults in /etc/bash.bashrc and > /etc/ksh93.kshrc, overriding the built in defaults. Both are vendor > defaults. I suspect Casper's point wasn't quite that. Changing default behaviours of shells, man, etc... in ways that are overridable by the customer is OK, within limits. For me the problem is how to change these default behaviours on update. If the behaviours are encoded in complex, customer-editable files, then they are not updateable. If the default behaviours are instead encoded in files that are not customer editable but can be overridden by system-wide and per-user customer-editable files, then that at least is upgradeable. Nico -- From casper@holland.sun.com Mon May 7 13:00:16 2007 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l47K0GTr022228 for ; Mon, 7 May 2007 13:00:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l47JxFks000536; Mon, 7 May 2007 12:59:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JHO00107SUQ5100@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Mon, 07 May 2007 13:59:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com ([129.159.237.36]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JHO00GWDSUQBY30@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Mon, 07 May 2007 13:59:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: from holland (room101 [129.159.248.23]) by sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7) with ESMTP id l47JxDpH030863; Mon, 07 May 2007 21:59:13 +0200 (MEST) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 21:59:13 +0200 From: Casper.Dik@sun.com Subject: Re: [shell-discuss] Re: PSARC FastTrack [PSARC/2007/233]: Default shellenvironment:machine ksh93/back environment In-reply-to: Sender: casper@holland.sun.com To: Shells discussion Cc: David.Comay@sun.com, Charles Debardeleben , PSARC-EXT@sun.com Message-id: <200705071959.l47JxDpH030863@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <462F7AEA.7060609@Sun.COM> <4638C074.CD692B71@nrubsig.org> <4638FBBC.2050007@sun.com> <463BF9AD.7B797D50@nrubsig.org> <200705050932.l459W1jn008092@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> <200705071847.l47Il34B043865@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> Status: RO Content-Length: 852 >On 5/7/07, Casper.Dik@sun.com wrote: >> >> >But then we are back to the same problem we started with. Most would >> >agree that the current defaults are not "fine." >> >> No we're not back were we started; I strongly believe that existing >> users run an extremely large risk from anything dumped in /etc. > >In that case you are no longer allowed to update bash or ksh. Never >ever again. Freeze bash, freeze ksh and disallow any updates because >this involves the extremely large risk that users run into new >defaults set by upstream. > >Do you see how silly this is? The upstream authors provide built in >defaults and Solaris can set defaults in /etc/bash.bashrc and >/etc/ksh93.kshrc, overriding the built in defaults. Both are vendor >defaults. Maybe you should follow the discussion before you take part in it. Casper From jek3@sun.com Mon May 7 17:31:03 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l480V2Zq009270 for ; Mon, 7 May 2007 17:31:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l480Tvp0002827; Tue, 8 May 2007 01:29:59 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JHP00JJR5DXOJ50@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Mon, 07 May 2007 17:29:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com ([129.146.17.63]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JHP00H6W4C8HG70@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Mon, 07 May 2007 17:07:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [129.150.12.53] (vpn-129-150-12-53.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.12.53]) by jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l4807ICx970431; Mon, 07 May 2007 17:07:19 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 14:06:49 -1000 From: Joseph Kowalski Subject: Re: [shell-discuss] Re: PSARC FastTrack [PSARC/2007/233]: Default shellenvironment:machine ksh93/back environment In-reply-to: To: Shawn Walker Cc: Shells discussion , Roland Mainz , David.Comay@sun.com, Charles Debardeleben , PSARC-EXT@sun.com Message-id: <463FBF19.2070102@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <462F7AEA.7060609@Sun.COM> <4638C074.CD692B71@nrubsig.org> <4638FBBC.2050007@sun.com> <463BF9AD.7B797D50@nrubsig.org> <200705050932.l459W1jn008092@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060925) Status: RO Content-Length: 1566 Shawn Walker wrote: > But then we are back to the same problem we started with. Most would > agree that the current defaults are not "fine." That's not my reading of the thread. My reading indicates that there is no set of defaults that are consensus and in a multi-way vote, the current defaults may well be the most popular (although clearly not a majority). > They may be "fine" for experienced users, or those that have used > Solaris before, but for "new" or other users, they are not very > pleasant. > Surely there must be a compromise here. Maybe an install-time option > that lets you select the initial setup style? ("standard" or > "advanced"?) > > That way you could still do the "skel" thing, but just have the > installer copy them to the right place? Try cygwin. A "cute" little UNIX emulation layer on Windows. (No offense with "cute". Its gosh-darn hard to emulate UNIX on a system which can neither "fork" or "exec", only "spawn".) On first use of bash, if it doesn't find any of its configuration files, it copies the "skel" ones into place, tells you their names and gives you a one or two line blurb as to what they are for. A similar solution would work for new users to the system. If you are an experienced user who is just changing systems, you'll know what to do. > I know you said the tools should get them from the right place, but > does that really happen? > > /etc/skel is fine with me, as long as the user accounts created during > installation have a chance to get the "new" defaults found /etc/skel > automatically. > - jek3 From brian.gupta@gmail.com Mon May 7 19:12:58 2007 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l482CweB013719 for ; Mon, 7 May 2007 19:12:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l482Bugx028224 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-EXT@sun.com>; Mon, 7 May 2007 19:11:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JHP001MVA3WVL40@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Mon, 07 May 2007 19:11:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com ([192.18.98.36]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JHP00MAL62RH120@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Mon, 07 May 2007 17:44:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay21.sun.com (relay21.sun.com [192.12.251.14] (may be forged)) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l480io4N003530 for ; Tue, 08 May 2007 00:44:51 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mms22es.sun.com ([150.143.232.34] [150.143.232.34]) by relay21.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-2093583 for PSARC-EXT@sun.com; Tue, 08 May 2007 00:44:50 +0000 (Z) Received: from mms24bas.mms.us.syntegra.com (relay24.mms.us.syntegra.com [192.12.251.70]) by mms22es.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-861234 for PSARC-EXT@sun.com; Tue, 08 May 2007 00:44:50 +0000 (Z) Received: from an-out-0708.google.com ([209.85.132.247] [209.85.132.247]) by relay24.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-5695440 for PSARC-EXT@sun.com; Tue, 08 May 2007 00:44:50 +0000 (Z) Received: by an-out-0708.google.com with SMTP id c24so222154ana for ; Mon, 07 May 2007 17:44:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.100.35.17 with SMTP id i17mr5316665ani.1178585090139; Mon, 07 May 2007 17:44:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.100.3.13 with HTTP; Mon, 07 May 2007 17:44:50 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 20:44:50 -0400 From: Brian Gupta Subject: Re: [shell-discuss] Re: PSARC FastTrack [PSARC/2007/233]: Default shellenvironment:machine ksh93/back environment In-reply-to: <463FBF19.2070102@sun.com> To: Joseph Kowalski Cc: Shawn Walker , PSARC-EXT@sun.com, Shells discussion , Charles Debardeleben Message-id: <5b5090780705071744y16a48781s60c84596e1d6af77@mail.gmail.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=b9U/JJ62qY1t3x6aBUL3WxfhY7Z6u38DVcl+U8dwvjkDsDRde2Ol6MGadXv7aqmOgrtHnlHx47e9wZ4bjUUsCSDwMFs4kk2Nd2YZIgxXJQNosMIZo9RmjxTpPE/FeJIgO6ukPaEn3tpIj0JZsWWT23F2/IlhMOehET+hfcq5EQE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=LjSV1Jyte9lsW5g7+G4HVTlt8difGf9rHAMp6HUAJS20arxpDH7R50iorL+MBUy8zNaPtkYd4m13oHVyFXdsYhRymPy89zeofBkc73YrJSEmk9kOODBcuqGy1Ebgo0S/PKbAhvNqonwat1V9CfkK2RSpIlGHPwCS8XDueTV6f0A= X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <462F7AEA.7060609@Sun.COM> <4638C074.CD692B71@nrubsig.org> <4638FBBC.2050007@sun.com> <463BF9AD.7B797D50@nrubsig.org> <200705050932.l459W1jn008092@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> <463FBF19.2070102@sun.com> Status: RO Content-Length: 295 I haven't really been following this thread closely, but I do have a question. (Please forgive if it has been addressed already) Will this proposed change affect cronjob execution environment, and will it effect remote jobs that use rsh and or ssh to connect to a remote system? Thanks, Brian From schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de Tue May 8 05:28:57 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l48CSuoo002538 for ; Tue, 8 May 2007 05:28:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l48CRZFT019060; Tue, 8 May 2007 20:27:52 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JHQ00L0L2MDI200@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Tue, 08 May 2007 05:27:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com ([192.18.98.36]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JHQ00FMC2MCIA70@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Tue, 08 May 2007 05:27:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay42i.sun.com ([192.5.209.72]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l48CRmiL025499; Tue, 08 May 2007 12:27:48 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mms49es.sun.com ([160.41.221.233] [160.41.221.233]) by relay42i.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-676235; Tue, 08 May 2007 12:27:48 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay43i.sun.com ([192.5.209.74] [192.5.209.74]) by mms49es.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-286607; Tue, 08 May 2007 12:27:48 +0000 (Z) Received: from mailhub.fokus.fraunhofer.de ([193.174.154.14] [193.174.154.14]) by relay4i.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-5761329; Tue, 08 May 2007 12:27:47 +0000 (Z) Received: from burner.fokus.fraunhofer.de (burner [10.147.65.166]) by mailhub.fokus.fraunhofer.de (8.11.6p2/8.11.6) with ESMTP id l48CRjf17103; Tue, 08 May 2007 14:27:45 +0200 (MEST) Received: (from jes@localhost) by burner.fokus.fraunhofer.de (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/Submit) id l48CR9wo015408; Tue, 08 May 2007 14:27:09 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 14:27:08 +0200 From: Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (Joerg Schilling) Subject: Re: [shell-discuss] Re: PSARC FastTrack [PSARC/2007/233]: Default shellenvironment:machine ksh93/back environment In-reply-to: <463FBF19.2070102@sun.com> Sender: schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de To: shell-discuss@opensolaris.org, binarycrusader@gmail.com Cc: shell-discuss@opensolaris.org, PSARC-EXT@sun.com, David.Comay@sun.com, Charles.Debardeleben@sun.com Message-id: <46406c9c.xyelJMi8xmFwRxc8%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <462F7AEA.7060609@Sun.COM> <4638C074.CD692B71@nrubsig.org> <4638FBBC.2050007@sun.com> <463BF9AD.7B797D50@nrubsig.org> <200705050932.l459W1jn008092@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> <463FBF19.2070102@sun.com> User-Agent: nail 11.22 3/20/05 Status: RO Content-Length: 813 Joseph Kowalski wrote: > Try cygwin. A "cute" little UNIX emulation layer on Windows. > (No offense with "cute". Its gosh-darn hard to emulate UNIX on > a system which can neither "fork" or "exec", only "spawn".) The OS that is below the "MS-WIN emulation layer" seems to support something simiar. If you use SFU instead of cygwin, compiling and in special shell scripts like "configure" are much faster than with cygwin. SFU does not sit on top of the "MS-WIN emulation layer" but besides it. Jörg -- EMail:joerg@schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin js@cs.tu-berlin.de (uni) schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily From dgk@research.att.com Tue May 8 12:07:06 2007 Received: from newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (newsunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.245]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l48J76Ug017235 for ; Tue, 8 May 2007 12:07:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l48J63oc006227; Tue, 8 May 2007 13:06:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JHQ00G0LL22L900@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Tue, 08 May 2007 13:06:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sca-ea-mail-4.sun.com ([192.18.43.22]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JHQ00BFXL201E40@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Tue, 08 May 2007 13:06:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay24.sun.com (ip192-12-251-74.block6.us.syntegra.com [192.12.251.74]) by sca-ea-mail-4.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l48J60wQ001972; Tue, 08 May 2007 19:06:00 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mms25es.sun.com ([150.143.232.94] [150.143.232.94]) by relay24.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-620215; Tue, 08 May 2007 19:06:00 +0000 (Z) Received: from mms23bas.mms.us.syntegra.com (relay23.mms.us.syntegra.com [192.12.251.50]) by mms25es.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-1523350; Tue, 08 May 2007 19:06:00 +0000 (Z) Received: from mail-red.research.att.com ([192.20.225.110] [192.20.225.110]) by relay23.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-14077927; Tue, 08 May 2007 19:05:59 +0000 (Z) Received: from penguin.research.att.com (penguin.research.att.com [135.207.20.192]) by mail-blue.research.att.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C16C147BF8; Tue, 08 May 2007 15:05:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from dgk@localhost) by penguin.research.att.com (8.13.1/8.12.10/Submit) id l48J5xPI008058; Tue, 08 May 2007 15:05:59 -0400 Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 15:05:59 -0400 From: David Korn Subject: Re: Re: [shell-discuss] Re: PSARC FastTrack [PSARC/2007/233]: Default shellenvironment:machine ksh93/back environment To: Charles.Debardeleben@sun.com, David.Comay@sun.com, PSARC-EXT@sun.com, shell-discuss@opensolaris.org Message-id: <200705081905.l48J5xPI008058@penguin.research.att.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: mailx (AT&T/BSD) 9.9 2006-04-17 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 Status: RO Content-Length: 1424 cc: PSARC-EXT@sun.com Charles.Debardeleben@sun.com David.Comay@sun.com Subject: Re: Re: [shell-discuss] Re: PSARC FastTrack [PSARC/2007/233]: Default shellenvironment:machine ksh93/back environment -------- Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de wrote: > Joseph Kowalski wrote: > > > Try cygwin. A "cute" little UNIX emulation layer on Windows. > > (No offense with "cute". Its gosh-darn hard to emulate UNIX on > > a system which can neither "fork" or "exec", only "spawn".) > > The OS that is below the "MS-WIN emulation layer" seems to support > something simiar. If you use SFU instead of cygwin, compiling and in > special shell scripts like "configure" are much faster than with cygwin. > > SFU does not sit on top of the "MS-WIN emulation layer" but besides it. > As long as were mentioning UNIX emulations for Windows, I will add UWIN which, like Cygwin, is a layer on Win32. UWIN comes with the same ksh93 as on all other systems and also runs like "configure" much faster than with cygwin. It comes with a development kit with a c89 command built on top over MVSC. Unlike cygwin, it does not have the GPL restrictions since is uses the AST toolkit for the commands. It can be downloaded from the same site as the ksh93 site, http://www.research.att.com/sw/download. Unlike, SFU, you can write programs that make both WIN32 calls as well as UNIX calls. David Korn dgk@research.att.com From roland.mainz@nrubsig.org Wed May 9 03:36:27 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l49AaQwH001859 for ; Wed, 9 May 2007 03:36:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l49AZKLW024642; Wed, 9 May 2007 18:35:21 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JHR00D09S2W9P00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 09 May 2007 03:35:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sca-ea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.43.25]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JHR007GNS2VHT70@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 09 May 2007 03:35:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay24.sun.com (ip192-12-251-74.block6.us.syntegra.com [192.12.251.74]) by sca-ea-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l49AZJtC024014; Wed, 09 May 2007 10:35:19 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mms22es.sun.com ([150.143.232.34] [150.143.232.34]) by relay24.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-666577; Wed, 09 May 2007 10:35:18 +0000 (Z) Received: from mms24bas.mms.us.syntegra.com (relay24.mms.us.syntegra.com [192.12.251.70]) by mms22es.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-2169739; Wed, 09 May 2007 10:35:18 +0000 (Z) Received: from mail-in-13.arcor-online.net ([151.189.21.53] [151.189.21.53]) by relay24.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-6963003; Wed, 09 May 2007 10:35:18 +0000 (Z) Received: from mail-in-03-z2.arcor-online.net (mail-in-03-z2.arcor-online.net [151.189.8.15]) by mail-in-13.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79FD62DD6F0; Wed, 09 May 2007 12:35:17 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mail-in-10.arcor-online.net (mail-in-10.arcor-online.net [151.189.21.50]) by mail-in-03-z2.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 444802D3DC8; Wed, 09 May 2007 12:35:17 +0200 (CEST) Received: from jupiterb48.nrubsig.org (dslb-084-058-249-186.pools.arcor-ip.net [84.58.249.186]) by mail-in-10.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E706724D803; Wed, 09 May 2007 12:35:16 +0200 (CEST) Received: from nrubsig.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by jupiterb48.nrubsig.org (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l49AZEeW002705; Wed, 09 May 2007 12:35:15 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 12:35:14 +0200 From: Roland Mainz Subject: Re: PSARC FastTrack [PSARC/2007/233]: Default shellenvironment:machine ksh93/back environment Sender: gisburn@jupiterb48.nrubsig.org To: Casper.Dik@Sun.COM Cc: Charles Debardeleben , David.Comay@Sun.COM, PSARC-EXT@Sun.COM, shell-discuss@opensolaris.org Message-id: <4641A3E2.77B27D2C@nrubsig.org> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.11 sun4u) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <462F7AEA.7060609@Sun.COM> <4638C074.CD692B71@nrubsig.org> <4638FBBC.2050007@sun.com> <463BF9AD.7B797D50@nrubsig.org> <200705050932.l459W1jn008092@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> Status: RO Content-Length: 2739 Casper.Dik@Sun.COM wrote: > > >Umpf... ;-/ > >The whole "better default shell environment"-cases center around "better > >defaults for beginners" (following the lead of distributions like SuSE, > >Ubuntu and Debian 4.0) and not "personal preferences for the > >professionals/admins/developers" (who likely start ranting about the > >"defaults" and are able to change them to match their preferences in > >their per-user configuration files. I agree that the defaults are not > >"perfect" for experts but they are very helpfull for "beginners" (which > >are usually not able to change this setting without learning the shell > >first). > > Then it occurs to me that setting them in /etc/profile, /etc/*rc* > is WRONG. > > By all means, refresh /etc/skel and have beginners populate > their accounts from there (as the tools do or should do) And how can we update those files in the user accounts ? At least in europe there are issues with data privacy and many sites explicitly disallow any channges of per-user data by admins without the explicit permission of the users. Anything delivered to the users ${HOME} is "fixed in stone" and cannot easily be changed anymore once it is delivered to the user. Imagine larger university sites with something like ~~80000 accounts. If you put the "wrong" things into ~/.profile, ~/.bashrc and/or ~/.kshrc this will result in a horror for the admins. That's why this case explicitly says that the matching files in /etc/skel/ should be delivered _empty_ except comments that admins should edit the machine-wide files (e.g. /etc/profile, /etc/bash.bashrc and /etc/ksh.kshrc for side-/machine-wide defaults). Another issue is described in PSARC 2006/550: ksh93 implements the POSIX shell standard very closely, including the detail that the shell itself must not enable any flags by default - which means that any editor mode cannot be by default by the shell itself. The standard does not forbid the use of startup scripts and that's why we use /etc/ksh.kshrc to set a default editor mode to improve the _usabilty_ (and to be in sync with bash's builtin default (which is a POSIX violation but one of the primary factors why "bash" is popular - it has working cursor keys+history by default)). In theory this could be done via ~/.kshrc but this turns out to be a huge problem if we want to deploy _new_ defaults like enabling the "multiline" editor option. We are not allowed to edit or even touch per-user ~/.kshrc files - which leaves as only options "/etc/ksh.kshrc" or just say "sorry, we can't help you". ---- Bye, Roland -- __ . . __ (o.\ \/ /.o) roland.mainz@nrubsig.org \__\/\/__/ MPEG specialist, C&&JAVA&&Sun&&Unix programmer /O /==\ O\ TEL +49 641 7950090 (;O/ \/ \O;) From roland.mainz@nrubsig.org Wed May 9 03:43:22 2007 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l49AhMtV002019 for ; Wed, 9 May 2007 03:43:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l49AgIjN004351; Wed, 9 May 2007 03:42:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JHR00I07SEIWM00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 09 May 2007 04:42:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sca-ea-mail-4.sun.com ([192.18.43.22]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JHR005UJSEH55B0@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 09 May 2007 04:42:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay3.sun.com (relay3.sun.com [150.143.103.54] (may be forged)) by sca-ea-mail-4.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l49ATAMY029540; Wed, 09 May 2007 10:42:17 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mms02es.sun.com ([150.143.104.34] [150.143.104.34]) by relay3.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-66130; Wed, 09 May 2007 10:42:16 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay1.sun.com (relay1.sun.com [150.143.103.14]) by mms02es.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-1663959; Wed, 09 May 2007 10:42:16 +0000 (Z) Received: from mail-in-05.arcor-online.net ([151.189.21.45] [151.189.21.45]) by relay1.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-469761; Wed, 09 May 2007 10:42:15 +0000 (Z) Received: from mail-in-08-z2.arcor-online.net (mail-in-08-z2.arcor-online.net [151.189.8.20]) by mail-in-05.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E29F637A5D7; Wed, 09 May 2007 12:42:14 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mail-in-11.arcor-online.net (mail-in-11.arcor-online.net [151.189.21.51]) by mail-in-08-z2.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7982212FAC; Wed, 09 May 2007 12:42:14 +0200 (CEST) Received: from jupiterb48.nrubsig.org (dslb-084-058-249-186.pools.arcor-ip.net [84.58.249.186]) by mail-in-11.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5AC4C12020; Wed, 09 May 2007 12:42:14 +0200 (CEST) Received: from nrubsig.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by jupiterb48.nrubsig.org (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l49AgCKX002708; Wed, 09 May 2007 12:42:12 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 12:42:12 +0200 From: Roland Mainz Subject: Re: [shell-discuss] Re: PSARC FastTrack [PSARC/2007/233]: Defaultshellenvironment:machine ksh93/back environment Sender: gisburn@jupiterb48.nrubsig.org To: Joerg Schilling Cc: shell-discuss@opensolaris.org, PSARC-EXT@Sun.COM, David.Comay@Sun.COM, Charles.Debardeleben@Sun.COM Message-id: <4641A584.208C72F1@nrubsig.org> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.11 sun4u) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <462F7AEA.7060609@Sun.COM> <4638C074.CD692B71@nrubsig.org> <4638FBBC.2050007@sun.com> <463BF9AD.7B797D50@nrubsig.org> <200705050932.l459W1jn008092@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> <463c5279.nvAo/H6FzWkEfTNH%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> Status: RO Content-Length: 2729 Joerg Schilling wrote: > > Casper.Dik@Sun.COM wrote: > > > > > >Umpf... ;-/ > > >The whole "better default shell environment"-cases center around "better > > >defaults for beginners" (following the lead of distributions like SuSE, > > >Ubuntu and Debian 4.0) and not "personal preferences for the > > >professionals/admins/developers" (who likely start ranting about the > > >"defaults" and are able to change them to match their preferences in > > >their per-user configuration files. I agree that the defaults are not > > >"perfect" for experts but they are very helpfull for "beginners" (which > > >are usually not able to change this setting without learning the shell > > >first). > > > > Then it occurs to me that setting them in /etc/profile, /etc/*rc* > > is WRONG. > > > > By all means, refresh /etc/skel and have beginners populate > > their accounts from there (as the tools do or should do) > > This seems to be the best way. No, it isn't. The /etc/skel/ files the sources of massive adminstrative heaches for large sites. Changing them later is tricky because of data privacy and problems _if_ some better trained users really did local modifications (which means: Forgot automated updates. Even the update procedure for /etc/profile during Solaris updates is horribly broken right now). IMO the /etc/skel/* files should be delivered _empty_ except a comment that admins should edit the /etc/(bash.bashrc|ksh.kshrc|profile) counterparts for site-/machine-wide defaults and that the files in ${HOME} are explicitly _only_ for modifications done by the users him-/herself. No admin should touch them. > > But changes to /etc/profile and the like affect *all* users, including > > those who feel that the current defaults are just fine. > > I don't like to be forced to reverse default settings from /etc/profile. > > Common practice on UNIX was always "go and copy yuor ~/.?* from another > person and later change them and try to understand them". This aligns > with /etc/skel This was _never_ common pratice - at least not since both /etc/profile and ~/.profile exist. > Putting beginners defaults into /etc/* is wrong for two reasons: > > - they force all user to use them That is the pupose of the files. They are used to establish machine- and/or site-wide defaults. > - their content is "hidden" from the beginners because the > files are not in the personal homedirectory. Erm, they are not hidden. The manual pages document them and a plain "xtrace" with a login shell will show their usage. ---- Bye, Roland -- __ . . __ (o.\ \/ /.o) roland.mainz@nrubsig.org \__\/\/__/ MPEG specialist, C&&JAVA&&Sun&&Unix programmer /O /==\ O\ TEL +49 641 7950090 (;O/ \/ \O;) From roland.mainz@nrubsig.org Wed May 9 03:56:05 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l49Au4fq002624 for ; Wed, 9 May 2007 03:56:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l49Asvou012859; Wed, 9 May 2007 11:54:59 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JHR00D05SZLO000@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 09 May 2007 03:54:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sca-ea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.43.24]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JHR00MO6SZKNFH0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 09 May 2007 03:54:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay2.sun.com (relay2.sun.com [150.143.103.24] (may be forged)) by sca-ea-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l49Aot18015174; Wed, 09 May 2007 10:54:56 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mms02es.sun.com ([150.143.104.34] [150.143.104.34]) by relay2.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-68630; Wed, 09 May 2007 10:54:53 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay4.sun.com (relay4.sun.com [150.143.103.74]) by mms02es.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-1672742; Wed, 09 May 2007 10:54:53 +0000 (Z) Received: from mail-in-03.arcor-online.net ([151.189.21.43] [151.189.21.43]) by relay4.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-532697; Wed, 09 May 2007 10:54:53 +0000 (Z) Received: from mail-in-01-z2.arcor-online.net (mail-in-12-z2.arcor-online.net [151.189.8.29]) by mail-in-03.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41DFF342833; Wed, 09 May 2007 12:54:52 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mail-in-12.arcor-online.net (mail-in-12.arcor-online.net [151.189.21.52]) by mail-in-01-z2.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDC852793F9; Wed, 09 May 2007 12:54:51 +0200 (CEST) Received: from jupiterb48.nrubsig.org (dslb-084-058-249-186.pools.arcor-ip.net [84.58.249.186]) by mail-in-12.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A80B98C46D; Wed, 09 May 2007 12:54:51 +0200 (CEST) Received: from nrubsig.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by jupiterb48.nrubsig.org (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l49Asn8N002714; Wed, 09 May 2007 12:54:49 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 12:54:49 +0200 From: Roland Mainz Subject: Re: [shell-discuss] Re: PSARC FastTrack [PSARC/2007/233]: Defaultshellenvironment:machine ksh93/back environment Sender: gisburn@jupiterb48.nrubsig.org To: Charles DeBardeleben Cc: shell-discuss@opensolaris.org, PSARC-EXT@sun.com, David.Comay@sun.com Message-id: <4641A879.8A76559A@nrubsig.org> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.11 sun4u) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <462F7AEA.7060609@Sun.COM> <4638C074.CD692B71@nrubsig.org> <4638FBBC.2050007@sun.com> <463BF9AD.7B797D50@nrubsig.org> <200705050932.l459W1jn008092@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> <463c5279.nvAo/H6FzWkEfTNH%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <463F6800.1000705@sun.com> Status: RO Content-Length: 2503 Charles DeBardeleben wrote: > Joerg Schilling wrote: > > Casper.Dik@Sun.COM wrote: [snip] > > Putting beginners defaults into /etc/* is wrong for two reasons: > > > > - they force all user to use them > > > > - their content is "hidden" from the beginners because the > > files are not in the personal homedirectory. > > I third this idea. In addition to the previously mentioned reasons, I > think you can add > that there is risk of breaking "users" with the upgrade if it is in > /etc/profile. Erm, the same will happen if we update shells like "bash" which enable some switches/features by default. And you even have the reverse problem - for example with ksh93: ksh93 does not enable any flags by default as required by the POSIX shell standard. Unfortunately this is bad for usuablity (e..g no working cursor keys or history - if you think this is acceptable go to the ksh93-integration archives and read the postings about TAB-TAB, history etc (AFAIK a few hundred postings just about these "little usability things")) and that's why we had an extra ARC case (PSARC 2006/587) to populate /etc/ksh.kshrc and enable the "gmacs" editor mode there to match the requests by the community. Or short: This ARC case (which proposes to ses PS1) is just an extension of PSARC 2006/587, following the precedent made there. > It may > turn out that the broken "user" is not a user at all, but a poorly > designed subsystem that > runs a daemon as a user and is sensitve to the environment. I am not sure for /etc/profile but /etc/ksh.kshrc and /etc/bash.bashrc are for interactive shells _only_ and the setting of PS1 and the editor are local shell variables/settings which are not exported into the environment (e.g. process children won't get the changes unless you do something like $ export PS1 #). > And as I said before, I am for the system setting up as little > environment as possible for the user. > There are times where the environment gets in the way. There have been > many times > where I have needed to run "env - /bin/sh" followed by ". > /home/gatekeeper/.profile" in order > to get the xyz gate to build for me. Grumpf... that would only be a problem if we would set anything which changes the environment - which is true for the TMPFILE/PAGER/MANPATH cases but _not_ for this one... ---- Bye, Roland -- __ . . __ (o.\ \/ /.o) roland.mainz@nrubsig.org \__\/\/__/ MPEG specialist, C&&JAVA&&Sun&&Unix programmer /O /==\ O\ TEL +49 641 7950090 (;O/ \/ \O;) From roland.mainz@nrubsig.org Wed May 9 04:01:16 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l49B1Fe1002735 for ; Wed, 9 May 2007 04:01:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l49B06m0014807; Wed, 9 May 2007 12:00:11 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JHR00E0XT8AEB00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 09 May 2007 04:00:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.98.43]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JHR007SBT86HVA0@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 09 May 2007 04:00:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay44i.sun.com ([192.5.209.118]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l49B05a9018270; Wed, 09 May 2007 11:00:06 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mms48es.sun.com ([160.41.221.231] [160.41.221.231]) by relay44i.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-744878; Wed, 09 May 2007 11:00:05 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay44i.sun.com ([192.5.209.118] [192.5.209.118]) by mms48es.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-1113336; Wed, 09 May 2007 11:00:05 +0000 (Z) Received: from mail-in-03.arcor-online.net ([151.189.21.43] [151.189.21.43]) by relay4i.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-6201998; Wed, 09 May 2007 11:00:05 +0000 (Z) Received: from mail-in-03-z2.arcor-online.net (mail-in-03-z2.arcor-online.net [151.189.8.15]) by mail-in-03.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFA8C3427D0; Wed, 09 May 2007 13:00:04 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mail-in-05.arcor-online.net (mail-in-05.arcor-online.net [151.189.21.45]) by mail-in-03-z2.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 691BA2D3B28; Wed, 09 May 2007 13:00:04 +0200 (CEST) Received: from jupiterb48.nrubsig.org (dslb-084-058-249-186.pools.arcor-ip.net [84.58.249.186]) by mail-in-05.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EF3B2BAA25; Wed, 09 May 2007 13:00:04 +0200 (CEST) Received: from nrubsig.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by jupiterb48.nrubsig.org (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l49B029U002717; Wed, 09 May 2007 13:00:02 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 13:00:02 +0200 From: Roland Mainz Subject: Re: [shell-discuss] Re: PSARC FastTrack [PSARC/2007/233]: Default shellenvironment:machine ksh93/back environment Sender: gisburn@jupiterb48.nrubsig.org To: Shawn Walker Cc: Shells discussion , David.Comay@Sun.COM, Charles Debardeleben , PSARC-EXT@Sun.COM Message-id: <4641A9B2.52FBFD46@nrubsig.org> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.11 sun4u) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <462F7AEA.7060609@Sun.COM> <4638C074.CD692B71@nrubsig.org> <4638FBBC.2050007@sun.com> <463BF9AD.7B797D50@nrubsig.org> <200705050932.l459W1jn008092@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> Status: RO Content-Length: 1166 Shawn Walker wrote: > On 05/05/07, Casper.Dik@sun.com wrote: [snip] > That way you could still do the "skel" thing, but just have the > installer copy them to the right place? And how can we adjust the defaults if the binary (like "bash") changes it ? > I know you said the tools should get them from the right place, but > does that really happen? > > /etc/skel is fine with me, as long as the user accounts created during > installation have a chance to get the "new" defaults found /etc/skel > automatically. How would you "update" the installed ~/.profile , ~/.kshrc or ~/.bashrc files ? Most sites don't even allow _any_ modifications of user data by admins without explicit permission. This may be a tiny problem for machines with 1-5 accounts where the users work in the same floor or near your cube... but imagine the situation of you have ~~80000 accounts (and guess why PSARC 2006/550 and PSARC 2006/586 added + populated /etc/ksh.kshrc ...) ... ---- Bye, Roland -- __ . . __ (o.\ \/ /.o) roland.mainz@nrubsig.org \__\/\/__/ MPEG specialist, C&&JAVA&&Sun&&Unix programmer /O /==\ O\ TEL +49 641 7950090 (;O/ \/ \O;) From casper@holland.sun.com Wed May 9 04:07:06 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l49B75BE002874 for ; Wed, 9 May 2007 04:07:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l49B5nnD005274; Wed, 9 May 2007 19:06:00 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JHR00E0NTHWU300@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 09 May 2007 04:05:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com ([129.159.237.36]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JHR007B3THVI1B0@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 09 May 2007 04:05:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from holland (room101 [129.159.248.23]) by sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7) with ESMTP id l49B5smL059626; Wed, 09 May 2007 13:05:54 +0200 (MEST) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 13:05:52 +0200 From: Casper.Dik@sun.com Subject: Re: PSARC FastTrack [PSARC/2007/233]: Default shellenvironment:machine ksh93/back environment In-reply-to: <4641A3E2.77B27D2C@nrubsig.org> Sender: casper@holland.sun.com To: Roland Mainz Cc: Charles Debardeleben , David.Comay@sun.com, PSARC-EXT@sun.com, shell-discuss@opensolaris.org Message-id: <200705091105.l49B5smL059626@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <462F7AEA.7060609@Sun.COM> <4638C074.CD692B71@nrubsig.org> <4638FBBC.2050007@sun.com> <463BF9AD.7B797D50@nrubsig.org> <200705050932.l459W1jn008092@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> <4641A3E2.77B27D2C@nrubsig.org> Status: RO Content-Length: 4370 >And how can we update those files in the user accounts ? At least in >europe there are issues with data privacy and many sites explicitly >disallow any channges of per-user data by admins without the explicit >permission of the users. Anything delivered to the users ${HOME} is >"fixed in stone" and cannot easily be changed anymore once it is >delivered to the user. Correct. And that is where we have a difference of opinion; I believe that it is wrong for us to force changes upon existing users. I, for one, would be *extremely* unhappy if someone messed with my default path, TMPDIR and PAGER settings. But it is fine to change that for new users and new accounts. >Imagine larger university sites with something like ~~80000 accounts. If >you put the "wrong" things into ~/.profile, ~/.bashrc and/or ~/.kshrc >this will result in a horror for the admins. Well, such sites may choose to implement reasonable site specific changes to the /etc files. How happy do you think the admin of a site of 80000 users will be if the new settings in /etc/profile broke their existing customized login and .shellrc scripts? I don't buy the argument that a site with 8000 users is helped by us changing the settings in /etc/profile and ilk; perhaps your site because the default closely match what your site wants. But I don't see this mapping in the same way to other sites. Part of the argument is changing the usability for *new* users; but this proposal has nothing to do with *new* users at all; it inflicts change upon the 100,000s of users already using Solaris. My /etc/skel counter proposal is aimed squarely at those new users. I have no argument with changing man to be more intelligent in searching for manual pages, BTW. >That's why this case explicitly says that the matching files in >/etc/skel/ should be delivered _empty_ except comments that admins >should edit the machine-wide files (e.g. /etc/profile, /etc/bash.bashrc >and /etc/ksh.kshrc for side-/machine-wide defaults). And I strong disagree, unless the proposal also leaves all of the /etc files UNCHANGED. >Another issue is described in PSARC 2006/550: ksh93 implements the POSIX >shell standard very closely, including the detail that the shell itself >must not enable any flags by default - which means that any editor mode >cannot be by default by the shell itself. The standard does not forbid >the use of startup scripts and that's why we use /etc/ksh.kshrc to set a >default editor mode to improve the _usabilty_ (and to be in sync with >bash's builtin default (which is a POSIX violation but one of the >primary factors why "bash" is popular - it has working cursor >keys+history by default)). In theory this could be done via ~/.kshrc but >this turns out to be a huge problem if we want to deploy _new_ defaults >like enabling the "multiline" editor option. We are not allowed to edit >or even touch per-user ~/.kshrc files - which leaves as only options >"/etc/ksh.kshrc" or just say "sorry, we can't help you". You should not attempt to solve problems at your site by messing with the environment for all existing users. I have little problems with new defaults for ksh93 or any shells, but I would like to keep the paths in sync. But anything which requires users to make changes to their .* files to undo Solaris inflicted change is wrong, IMO. And don't give me any argument based on law; apart from being incorrect, as there is no problem in drawing up a policy which allows the administrator to edit those files, there is still nothing which prevents you from changing these files yourself. "But we don't want to do that" is not a valid argument; it gives rise to the ridiculous notion that these defaults are the only ones anyone would want. As it is, there are other problems which need to be addressed regardless of the outcome of the discussion: - the upgrade process currently makes some edits to the "skel" and /etc/* files this mechanism does not seem to be suited to the wholesale set of changes proposed here (also because any changes by the administrator to the files to revert the new defaults may be then later undone) Options: Punt (edit only those things which are actual bugs and don't bother ever updating the files after a system is installed) Overwrite (copy the new file in place, regardless of the old content) Casper From casper@holland.sun.com Wed May 9 04:14:12 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l49BEBmi003031 for ; Wed, 9 May 2007 04:14:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l49BD2XC007462; Wed, 9 May 2007 19:13:06 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JHR00F0DTTQFP00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 09 May 2007 04:13:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com ([129.159.237.36]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JHR00DUWTTPWI10@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 09 May 2007 04:13:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from holland (room101 [129.159.248.23]) by sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7) with ESMTP id l49BD0Qv064672; Wed, 09 May 2007 13:13:00 +0200 (MEST) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 13:12:58 +0200 From: Casper.Dik@sun.com Subject: Re: [shell-discuss] Re: PSARC FastTrack [PSARC/2007/233]: Defaultshellenvironment:machine ksh93/back environment In-reply-to: <4641A879.8A76559A@nrubsig.org> Sender: casper@holland.sun.com To: Shells discussion Cc: Charles DeBardeleben , PSARC-EXT@sun.com, David.Comay@sun.com Message-id: <200705091113.l49BD0Qv064672@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <462F7AEA.7060609@Sun.COM> <4638C074.CD692B71@nrubsig.org> <4638FBBC.2050007@sun.com> <463BF9AD.7B797D50@nrubsig.org> <200705050932.l459W1jn008092@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> <463c5279.nvAo/H6FzWkEfTNH%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <463F6800.1000705@sun.com> <4641A879.8A76559A@nrubsig.org> Status: RO Content-Length: 2046 >Erm, the same will happen if we update shells like "bash" which enable >some switches/features by default. And you even have the reverse problem >- for example with ksh93: ksh93 does not enable any flags by default as >required by the POSIX shell standard. Unfortunately this is bad for >usuablity (e..g no working cursor keys or history - if you think this is >acceptable go to the ksh93-integration archives and read the postings >about TAB-TAB, history etc (AFAIK a few hundred postings just about >these "little usability things")) and that's why we had an extra ARC >case (PSARC 2006/587) to populate /etc/ksh.kshrc and enable the "gmacs" >editor mode there to match the requests by the community. Upgrades of binaries which radically change behaviour is a problem. We've not allowed that in the past but we are allowing that now, albeit with some qualms (and being on the receiving end is never fun; the continuous retraining with netscape/mozilla/firefox is not a fun experience; whenever one thing improves another thing invariably gets worse, like the hokey per-tab closeboxes) So we're going down that path some; I'm not sure we should go down that path even further, especially when there are reasonable alternatives. >Or short: This ARC case (which proposes to ses PS1) is just an extension >of PSARC 2006/587, following the precedent made there. Can you give me the invocation of "kshelless" with sets the prompt back to "$ " or "# " respecitively? >I am not sure for /etc/profile but /etc/ksh.kshrc and /etc/bash.bashrc >are for interactive shells _only_ and the setting of PS1 and the editor >are local shell variables/settings which are not exported into the >environment (e.g. process children won't get the changes unless you do >something like $ export PS1 #). /etc/profile is for login shells; there's no way to run anything specifically for an interactive "Bourne" shell. (I may be confusing my cases here, but since all cases are intertwined it's perhaps an idea to merge the default settings cases in one) Casper From casper@holland.sun.com Wed May 9 04:22:02 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l49BM1uZ003201 for ; Wed, 9 May 2007 04:22:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l49BKphL021374; Wed, 9 May 2007 12:20:56 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JHR00F0HU6SKQ00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 09 May 2007 04:20:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com ([129.159.237.36]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JHR007GGU6RHZD0@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 09 May 2007 04:20:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from holland (room101 [129.159.248.23]) by sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7) with ESMTP id l49BKot5004645; Wed, 09 May 2007 13:20:50 +0200 (MEST) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 13:20:47 +0200 From: Casper.Dik@Sun.COM Subject: Re: [shell-discuss] Re: PSARC FastTrack [PSARC/2007/233]: Default shellenvironment:machine ksh93/back environment In-reply-to: <4641A9B2.52FBFD46@nrubsig.org> Sender: casper@holland.sun.com To: Shells discussion Cc: Shawn Walker , David.Comay@Sun.COM, Charles Debardeleben , PSARC-EXT@Sun.COM Message-id: <200705091120.l49BKot5004645@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <462F7AEA.7060609@Sun.COM> <4638C074.CD692B71@nrubsig.org> <4638FBBC.2050007@sun.com> <463BF9AD.7B797D50@nrubsig.org> <200705050932.l459W1jn008092@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> <4641A9B2.52FBFD46@nrubsig.org> Status: RO Content-Length: 1861 >And how can we adjust the defaults if the binary (like "bash") changes >it ? We can't; but that's something that is relatively easy to live with. >> I know you said the tools should get them from the right place, but >> does that really happen? >> >> /etc/skel is fine with me, as long as the user accounts created during >> installation have a chance to get the "new" defaults found /etc/skel >> automatically. > >How would you "update" the installed ~/.profile , ~/.kshrc or ~/.bashrc >files ? Most sites don't even allow _any_ modifications of user data by >admins without explicit permission. This may be a tiny problem for >machines with 1-5 accounts where the users work in the same floor or >near your cube... but imagine the situation of you have ~~80000 accounts >(and guess why PSARC 2006/550 and PSARC 2006/586 added + populated >/etc/ksh.kshrc ...) ... You don't update the installed files. So if I get this straight: - you have problems with changed defaults in shells and want to edit ~/.* files to undo these changes - yet you also want to inflict change on *all* user by changing a host of environment variables? I just don't get it. There is also a lot missing here, I think, which we need to address, before we all go of an implement the wholesale setting of the environment. The architectural problems need to be solved before we can even contemplate going further. (Except for the new files in /etc, we have no mechanism which makes upgrade work). Architectural issues I'm seeing include: - how do we make sure that administrators have the standard environment variables in sync between ksh/ksh93/sh/bash/tcsh/csh/zsh - how do we upgrade the /etc/skel/* files and the /etc/* files? I have no easy solution for the first problem; the second problem can be partially solved with a single indirection. Casper From roland.mainz@nrubsig.org Wed May 9 04:23:19 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l49BNI3i003245 for ; Wed, 9 May 2007 04:23:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l49BM9Hg010286; Wed, 9 May 2007 19:22:13 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JHR00F01U90MW00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 09 May 2007 04:22:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sca-ea-mail-3.sun.com ([192.18.43.21]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JHR007TEU8ZHVC0@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 09 May 2007 04:22:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay1.sun.com (relay1.sun.com [150.143.103.14] (may be forged)) by sca-ea-mail-3.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l498GKOS022197; Wed, 09 May 2007 11:22:11 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mms02es.sun.com ([150.143.104.34] [150.143.104.34]) by relay1.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-67866; Wed, 09 May 2007 11:21:47 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay1.sun.com (relay1.sun.com [150.143.103.14]) by mms02es.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-1691361; Wed, 09 May 2007 11:21:47 +0000 (Z) Received: from mail-in-03.arcor-online.net ([151.189.21.43] [151.189.21.43]) by relay1.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-493818; Wed, 09 May 2007 11:21:47 +0000 (Z) Received: from mail-in-04-z2.arcor-online.net (mail-in-04-z2.arcor-online.net [151.189.8.16]) by mail-in-03.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACB653427FC; Wed, 09 May 2007 13:21:46 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mail-in-01.arcor-online.net (mail-in-01.arcor-online.net [151.189.21.41]) by mail-in-04-z2.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9219CABAEC; Wed, 09 May 2007 13:21:46 +0200 (CEST) Received: from jupiterb48.nrubsig.org (dslb-084-058-249-186.pools.arcor-ip.net [84.58.249.186]) by mail-in-01.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3184419B32C; Wed, 09 May 2007 13:21:46 +0200 (CEST) Received: from nrubsig.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by jupiterb48.nrubsig.org (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l49BLh5T002725; Wed, 09 May 2007 13:21:44 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 13:21:43 +0200 From: Roland Mainz Subject: Re: [shell-discuss] Re: PSARC FastTrack [PSARC/2007/233]: Defaultshellenvironment:machine ksh93/back environment Sender: gisburn@jupiterb48.nrubsig.org To: Shells discussion Cc: David.Comay@sun.com, Charles Debardeleben , PSARC-EXT@sun.com Message-id: <4641AEC7.8B14A16D@nrubsig.org> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.11 sun4u) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <462F7AEA.7060609@Sun.COM> <4638C074.CD692B71@nrubsig.org> <4638FBBC.2050007@sun.com> <463BF9AD.7B797D50@nrubsig.org> <200705050932.l459W1jn008092@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> <200705071847.l47Il34B043865@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> Status: RO Content-Length: 3486 Casper.Dik@Sun.COM wrote: > > >But then we are back to the same problem we started with. Most would > >agree that the current defaults are not "fine." > > No we're not back were we started; I strongly believe that existing > users run an extremely large risk from anything dumped in /etc. > New users benefit from /etc/skel and so we are NOT back were we > started from. The "new users" will only benefit from defaults set in the /etc/skel/ files until the binaries itself change. If the "defaults" set there turn out to be problematic with the new binaries then a huge horror problem for the admins comes up: How do you "update" something like ~~80000 user accounts when the site policy requires an explicit, written permission from each user before the admins are allowed to touch their files (and beginners are usually not able to do the modifications themselves) ? > >They may be "fine" for experienced users, or those that have used > >Solaris before, but for "new" or other users, they are not very > >pleasant. > > No argument, but > > - we can't really agree on the proper new defaults ARC already agreed on PSARC 2006/587 to enable the "gmacs" editor mode in /etc/ksh.kshrc, following the precedent of SuSE Linux and the builtin defaults of "bash". This case is just an extension of that case. > - adding them to /etc/* affects experienced old users and > new users alike. > > >Surely there must be a compromise here. Maybe an install-time option > >that lets you select the initial setup style? ("standard" or > >"advanced"?) > > > >That way you could still do the "skel" thing, but just have the > >installer copy them to the right place? > > Sorry, I don't follow. > > /etc/skel is there to populate all new accounts from. New accounts > will get the "advanced" defaults. And old ones stay with half-broken defaults then ? That doesn't sound like a good idea. [snip] > I have no problem with a case which radically alters /etc/skell and makes > sure that the files found there are used to good effect. This will not work. I had enougth problems with garbage delivered via /etc/skel/ in my life. IMO these files should be delivered _empty_ and only the users themselves should be allowed to populate these files. Remeber that they are called "per-user files" and not "per-user default account settings". > Also make sure to check the pretty horrid i.etcprofile class action > script. IMO this horrible script should be replaced with something which preserves the old version by renaming it to something like "${filename}_$(date)_saved", installs the new one in ${filename} and sends an email to the admins to do any merges if needed. > Other considerations are the type of the /etc/skel files and > the /etc/*rc files. They're currently all "e" files, probably rightly > so, but that seriously complicates matters. For /etc/bash.bashrc and /etc/bash.bash_logout I would propose the same as done for /etc/ksh.kshrc added by PSARC 2006/550+2006/587: Switch the package database entry to "e renameold" (we did that for /etc/ksh.kshrc since otherwise we run into huge problems if we update ksh93 (or bash for /etc/bash.bashrc) and technicially it would kill the /etc/env.d/ project since it uses these files as starting points for it's machinery). ---- Bye, Roland -- __ . . __ (o.\ \/ /.o) roland.mainz@nrubsig.org \__\/\/__/ MPEG specialist, C&&JAVA&&Sun&&Unix programmer /O /==\ O\ TEL +49 641 7950090 (;O/ \/ \O;) From roland.mainz@nrubsig.org Wed May 9 04:25:23 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l49BPM5Q003300 for ; Wed, 9 May 2007 04:25:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l49BOFaJ022221; Wed, 9 May 2007 12:24:16 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JHR00005UCE3R00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 09 May 2007 05:24:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.98.43]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JHR00KM6UCEVJ10@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 09 May 2007 05:24:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay22.sun.com (relay22.sun.com [192.12.251.34] (may be forged)) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l49BOD6v024910; Wed, 09 May 2007 11:24:14 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mms25es.sun.com ([150.143.232.94] [150.143.232.94]) by relay22.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-40684; Wed, 09 May 2007 11:24:12 +0000 (Z) Received: from mms25bas.mms.us.syntegra.com (ip192-12-251-90.block6.us.syntegra.com [192.12.251.90]) by mms25es.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-2020898; Wed, 09 May 2007 11:24:11 +0000 (Z) Received: from mail-in-01.arcor-online.net ([151.189.21.41] [151.189.21.41]) by relay21.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-6163199; Wed, 09 May 2007 11:24:11 +0000 (Z) Received: from mail-in-04-z2.arcor-online.net (mail-in-04-z2.arcor-online.net [151.189.8.16]) by mail-in-01.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF7C515BB5E; Wed, 09 May 2007 13:24:10 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mail-in-01.arcor-online.net (mail-in-01.arcor-online.net [151.189.21.41]) by mail-in-04-z2.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3277ABFAE; Wed, 09 May 2007 13:24:10 +0200 (CEST) Received: from jupiterb48.nrubsig.org (dslb-084-058-249-186.pools.arcor-ip.net [84.58.249.186]) by mail-in-01.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BEB819B326; Wed, 09 May 2007 13:24:10 +0200 (CEST) Received: from nrubsig.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by jupiterb48.nrubsig.org (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l49BO7IE002728; Wed, 09 May 2007 13:24:08 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 13:24:07 +0200 From: Roland Mainz Subject: Re: PSARC FastTrack [PSARC/2007/233]: Default shellenvironment:machine ksh93/back environment Sender: gisburn@jupiterb48.nrubsig.org To: Nicolas Williams Cc: Casper.Dik@sun.com, shell-discuss@opensolaris.org, Charles Debardeleben , PSARC-EXT@sun.com Message-id: <4641AF57.A46E617F@nrubsig.org> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.11 sun4u) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <462F7AEA.7060609@Sun.COM> <4638C074.CD692B71@nrubsig.org> <4638FBBC.2050007@sun.com> <463BF9AD.7B797D50@nrubsig.org> <200705050932.l459W1jn008092@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> <20070507184805.GH9159@Sun.COM> Status: RO Content-Length: 604 Nicolas Williams wrote: > On Sat, May 05, 2007 at 11:32:01AM +0200, Casper.Dik@Sun.COM wrote: > > Then it occurs to me that setting them in /etc/profile, /etc/*rc* > > is WRONG. > > Right: how does one write class action scripts to update these shell > scripts? Erm, what about doing the same as we did for /etc/ksh.kshrc as introduced by PSARC 2006/550+2006/587 and set the package database entry to "e renameold" ? ---- Bye, Roland -- __ . . __ (o.\ \/ /.o) roland.mainz@nrubsig.org \__\/\/__/ MPEG specialist, C&&JAVA&&Sun&&Unix programmer /O /==\ O\ TEL +49 641 7950090 (;O/ \/ \O;) From casper@holland.sun.com Wed May 9 04:35:29 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l49BZSd3003539 for ; Wed, 9 May 2007 04:35:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l49BYHkT025088; Wed, 9 May 2007 12:34:22 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JHR00H01UT9JG00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 09 May 2007 04:34:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com ([129.159.237.36]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JHR00DJZUT3WE30@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 09 May 2007 04:34:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from holland (room101 [129.159.248.23]) by sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7) with ESMTP id l49BYEpj014537; Wed, 09 May 2007 13:34:14 +0200 (MEST) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 13:34:11 +0200 From: Casper.Dik@sun.com Subject: Re: PSARC FastTrack [PSARC/2007/233]: Default shellenvironment:machine ksh93/back environment In-reply-to: <4641AF57.A46E617F@nrubsig.org> Sender: casper@holland.sun.com To: Roland Mainz Cc: Nicolas Williams , shell-discuss@opensolaris.org, Charles Debardeleben , PSARC-EXT@sun.com Message-id: <200705091134.l49BYEpj014537@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <462F7AEA.7060609@Sun.COM> <4638C074.CD692B71@nrubsig.org> <4638FBBC.2050007@sun.com> <463BF9AD.7B797D50@nrubsig.org> <200705050932.l459W1jn008092@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> <20070507184805.GH9159@Sun.COM> <4641AF57.A46E617F@nrubsig.org> Status: RO Content-Length: 966 >Nicolas Williams wrote: >> On Sat, May 05, 2007 at 11:32:01AM +0200, Casper.Dik@Sun.COM wrote: >> > Then it occurs to me that setting them in /etc/profile, /etc/*rc* >> > is WRONG. >> >> Right: how does one write class action scripts to update these shell >> scripts? > >Erm, what about doing the same as we did for /etc/ksh.kshrc as >introduced by PSARC 2006/550+2006/587 and set the package database entry >to "e renameold" ? Hm, that will really make administrators happy. Note that /etc/ksh.kshrc is still an essentially new file and ksh93 a new part, so any settings for it are not what I would consider random change inflicted on existing users. But renameold and the other edits are a poor solution. Perhaps we should migrate to something like: # Include default ksh. . /etc/ksh.kshrc.default and edit them a final time (so administrators can customize them to their hearts content and we have no longer a problem updating the defaults) Casper From roland.mainz@nrubsig.org Wed May 9 04:38:30 2007 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l49BcUTx003605 for ; Wed, 9 May 2007 04:38:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l49BbP3P017766; Wed, 9 May 2007 04:37:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JHR00G0BUYCC500@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 09 May 2007 04:37:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.98.43]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JHR007NAUYBHYC0@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 09 May 2007 04:37:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay1.sun.com (relay1.sun.com [150.143.103.14] (may be forged)) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l498GHF7005487; Wed, 09 May 2007 11:37:23 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mms04es.sun.com ([150.143.104.74] [150.143.104.74]) by relay1.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-69196; Wed, 09 May 2007 11:37:23 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay4.sun.com (relay4.sun.com [150.143.103.74]) by mms04es.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-1767806; Wed, 09 May 2007 11:37:22 +0000 (Z) Received: from mail-in-07.arcor-online.net ([151.189.21.47] [151.189.21.47]) by relay4.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-554959; Wed, 09 May 2007 11:37:22 +0000 (Z) Received: from mail-in-02-z2.arcor-online.net (mail-in-02-z2.arcor-online.net [151.189.8.14]) by mail-in-07.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1492024B53E; Wed, 09 May 2007 13:37:22 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mail-in-02.arcor-online.net (mail-in-02.arcor-online.net [151.189.21.42]) by mail-in-02-z2.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C373A114DF0; Wed, 09 May 2007 13:37:21 +0200 (CEST) Received: from jupiterb48.nrubsig.org (dslb-084-058-249-186.pools.arcor-ip.net [84.58.249.186]) by mail-in-02.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87C3336E870; Wed, 09 May 2007 13:37:21 +0200 (CEST) Received: from nrubsig.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by jupiterb48.nrubsig.org (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l49BbJel002737; Wed, 09 May 2007 13:37:19 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 13:37:19 +0200 From: Roland Mainz Subject: Re: [shell-discuss] Re: PSARC FastTrack [PSARC/2007/233]: Defaultshellenvironment:machine ksh93/back environment Sender: gisburn@jupiterb48.nrubsig.org To: Brian Gupta Cc: Joseph Kowalski , PSARC-EXT@sun.com, Shawn Walker , Charles Debardeleben , Shells discussion Message-id: <4641B26F.4F970703@nrubsig.org> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.11 sun4u) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <462F7AEA.7060609@Sun.COM> <4638C074.CD692B71@nrubsig.org> <4638FBBC.2050007@sun.com> <463BF9AD.7B797D50@nrubsig.org> <200705050932.l459W1jn008092@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> <463FBF19.2070102@sun.com> <5b5090780705071744y16a48781s60c84596e1d6af77@mail.gmail.com> Status: RO Content-Length: 736 Brian Gupta wrote: > > I haven't really been following this thread closely, but I do have a > question. (Please forgive if it has been addressed already) Will this > proposed change affect cronjob execution environment, and will it > effect remote jobs that use rsh and or ssh to connect to a remote > system? AFAIK cron jobs will not be affected by anything set in /etc/ksh.kshrc or /etc/bash.bashrc since these files are for interactive shells only and we only propose to set local variables+settings which are not exported into the environment. ---- Bye, Roland -- __ . . __ (o.\ \/ /.o) roland.mainz@nrubsig.org \__\/\/__/ MPEG specialist, C&&JAVA&&Sun&&Unix programmer /O /==\ O\ TEL +49 641 7950090 (;O/ \/ \O;) From roland.mainz@nrubsig.org Wed May 9 04:38:46 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l49BcjF3003624 for ; Wed, 9 May 2007 04:38:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l49BbWTM026062; Wed, 9 May 2007 12:37:41 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JHR00G03UYRCS00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 09 May 2007 04:37:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com ([192.18.98.36]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JHR007O6UYQHYC0@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 09 May 2007 04:37:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay3.sun.com (relay3.sun.com [150.143.103.54] (may be forged)) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l49B8kL2009880; Wed, 09 May 2007 11:37:38 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mms03es.sun.com ([150.143.104.54] [150.143.104.54]) by relay3.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-70511; Wed, 09 May 2007 11:37:09 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay2.sun.com (relay2.sun.com [150.143.103.24]) by mms03es.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-605235; Wed, 09 May 2007 11:37:08 +0000 (Z) Received: from mail-in-10.arcor-online.net ([151.189.21.50] [151.189.21.50]) by relay2.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-493641; Wed, 09 May 2007 11:37:08 +0000 (Z) Received: from mail-in-01-z2.arcor-online.net (mail-in-01-z2.arcor-online.net [151.189.8.13]) by mail-in-10.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E2011F54CA; Wed, 09 May 2007 13:37:07 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mail-in-02.arcor-online.net (mail-in-02.arcor-online.net [151.189.21.42]) by mail-in-01-z2.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C5A512DF73; Wed, 09 May 2007 13:37:07 +0200 (CEST) Received: from jupiterb48.nrubsig.org (dslb-084-058-249-186.pools.arcor-ip.net [84.58.249.186]) by mail-in-02.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4614A2DA25B; Wed, 09 May 2007 13:37:07 +0200 (CEST) Received: from nrubsig.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by jupiterb48.nrubsig.org (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l49Bb41p002734; Wed, 09 May 2007 13:37:05 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 13:37:04 +0200 From: Roland Mainz Subject: Re: [shell-discuss] Re: PSARC FastTrack [PSARC/2007/233]: Defaultshellenvironment:machine ksh93/back environment Sender: gisburn@jupiterb48.nrubsig.org To: Shells discussion Cc: David.Comay@sun.com, Charles Debardeleben , PSARC-EXT@sun.com Message-id: <4641B260.EACA5ACF@nrubsig.org> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.11 sun4u) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <462F7AEA.7060609@Sun.COM> <4638C074.CD692B71@nrubsig.org> <4638FBBC.2050007@sun.com> <463BF9AD.7B797D50@nrubsig.org> <200705050932.l459W1jn008092@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> <200705071847.l47Il34B043865@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> Status: RO Content-Length: 1133 Josh Hurst wrote: > On 5/7/07, Casper.Dik@sun.com wrote: > > >But then we are back to the same problem we started with. Most would > > >agree that the current defaults are not "fine." > > > > No we're not back were we started; I strongly believe that existing > > users run an extremely large risk from anything dumped in /etc. > > In that case you are no longer allowed to update bash or ksh. Never > ever again. Freeze bash, freeze ksh and disallow any updates because > this involves the extremely large risk that users run into new > defaults set by upstream. Erm, that's not correct. The first set are builtin defaults set+controlled by the upstream authors while the 2nd set (e.g. /etc/ksh.kshrc , /etc/bash.bashrc etc.) are defaults set+controlled by (Open-)Solaris. If the first set changes in any problematic way we could use the /etc/bash.bashrc or /etc/ksh.kshrc files to "undo" any possible damage for the users. ---- Bye, Roland -- __ . . __ (o.\ \/ /.o) roland.mainz@nrubsig.org \__\/\/__/ MPEG specialist, C&&JAVA&&Sun&&Unix programmer /O /==\ O\ TEL +49 641 7950090 (;O/ \/ \O;) From Darren.Moffat@Sun.COM Wed May 9 04:47:47 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l49BlkmX003856 for ; Wed, 9 May 2007 04:47:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l49Bkgpc028794 for <@newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com:PSARC-EXT@sun.com>; Wed, 9 May 2007 12:46:42 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JHR00201VDTEP00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@Sun.COM); Wed, 09 May 2007 05:46:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: from gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com ([129.156.42.5]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JHR00KWFVDRVP20@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@Sun.COM); Wed, 09 May 2007 05:46:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from d1-emea-09.sun.com (d1-emea-09.sun.com [192.18.2.119]) by gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l49BkdWx004202 for ; Wed, 09 May 2007 11:46:39 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-emea-09.sun.com by d1-emea-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JHR00001VCVAJ00@d1-emea-09.sun.com> (original mail from Darren.Moffat@Sun.COM) for PSARC-EXT@Sun.COM (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@Sun.COM); Wed, 09 May 2007 12:46:39 +0100 (BST) Received: from [129.150.120.43] by d1-emea-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JHR00A6AVDP7T20@d1-emea-09.sun.com>; Wed, 09 May 2007 12:46:39 +0100 (BST) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 12:46:37 +0100 From: Darren J Moffat Subject: Re: PSARC FastTrack [PSARC/2007/233]: Default shellenvironment:machine ksh93/back environment In-reply-to: <4641A3E2.77B27D2C@nrubsig.org> Sender: Darren.Moffat@Sun.COM To: Roland Mainz Cc: Casper.Dik@Sun.COM, Charles Debardeleben , David.Comay@Sun.COM, PSARC-EXT@Sun.COM, shell-discuss@opensolaris.org Message-id: <4641B49D.7040209@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <462F7AEA.7060609@Sun.COM> <4638C074.CD692B71@nrubsig.org> <4638FBBC.2050007@sun.com> <463BF9AD.7B797D50@nrubsig.org> <200705050932.l459W1jn008092@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> <4641A3E2.77B27D2C@nrubsig.org> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0b2 (X11/20070227) Status: RO Content-Length: 2828 Roland Mainz wrote: > And how can we update those files in the user accounts ? At least in > europe there are issues with data privacy and many sites explicitly > disallow any channges of per-user data by admins without the explicit > permission of the users. Anything delivered to the users ${HOME} is > "fixed in stone" and cannot easily be changed anymore once it is > delivered to the user. > Imagine larger university sites with something like ~~80000 accounts. If > you put the "wrong" things into ~/.profile, ~/.bashrc and/or ~/.kshrc > this will result in a horror for the admins. > That's why this case explicitly says that the matching files in > /etc/skel/ should be delivered _empty_ except comments that admins > should edit the machine-wide files (e.g. /etc/profile, /etc/bash.bashrc > and /etc/ksh.kshrc for side-/machine-wide defaults). The way that Sun deals with this (and has done for quite some time) internally is something like this, IIRC something very similar was deployed at Glasgow Uni when I was a student there: The skeleton .profile/.cshrc/.kshrc that is placed in the users home dir when the account is created looks for a site wide profile (which is actually held in an automounted filesystem (/usr/dist/share/cue - CUE is Common User Environment)) and sources that in. Thats all it does, the comments in users .profile tell them not to modify the file at all but instead to add their changes into .profile.user (.cshrc.user). The default .profile.user that each user has is empty but has instructions for customisation. There are some CUE_ environment variables that can be set to change so defaults one of these is CUE_USERLEVEL which has values like "novice" or "advanced". I also noticed that some systems (Sun Ray servers in particular) have a modified /etc/profile that sources in /etc/profile.d/*.sh - the only file in there on the host I looked on was for setting ..... $TMPDIR :-) This solves the problem of site specific defaults and later update of site policy without changing user files. However that is only one motivation for change the default environment, the other is making Solaris more approachable to new Solaris users. I think thats a noble goal, but as Casper pointed out changes to the system files rather than the /etc/skel ones can lead to unexpected changes in the existing users environment when they do an upgrade - but worse it also applies if they login to a machine that was freshly installed. This is a hard balance to get unfortunately. One of the things that has occurred to me in sponsoring this case is that these are exactly the types of things that each OpenSolaris distribution could be doing differently. So is this really an OpenSolaris case or a case for changing Sun's OpenSolaris distribution ? -- Darren J Moffat From roland.mainz@nrubsig.org Wed May 9 05:08:32 2007 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l49C8Wwl004771 for ; Wed, 9 May 2007 05:08:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l49C7SGp023615; Wed, 9 May 2007 05:07:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JHR0040DWCGL800@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 09 May 2007 06:07:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sca-ea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.43.25]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JHR00KSHWCGVH30@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 09 May 2007 06:07:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay3.sun.com (relay3.sun.com [150.143.103.54] (may be forged)) by sca-ea-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l49Boll1010570; Wed, 09 May 2007 12:07:28 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mms05es.sun.com ([150.143.104.94] [150.143.104.94]) by relay3.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-73033; Wed, 09 May 2007 12:06:43 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay01i.sun.com (ip70.net150143-60.block3.us.syntegra.com [150.143.60.70]) by mms05es.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-1859569; Wed, 09 May 2007 12:06:43 +0000 (Z) Received: from mail-in-03.arcor-online.net ([151.189.21.43] [151.189.21.43]) by relay0i.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-7195898; Wed, 09 May 2007 12:06:42 +0000 (Z) Received: from mail-in-13-z2.arcor-online.net (mail-in-13-z2.arcor-online.net [151.189.8.30]) by mail-in-03.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73A45143739; Wed, 09 May 2007 14:06:41 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mail-in-02.arcor-online.net (mail-in-02.arcor-online.net [151.189.21.42]) by mail-in-13-z2.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2119E1B8E5B; Wed, 09 May 2007 14:06:41 +0200 (CEST) Received: from jupiterb48.nrubsig.org (dslb-084-058-249-186.pools.arcor-ip.net [84.58.249.186]) by mail-in-02.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D33B736E868; Wed, 09 May 2007 14:06:40 +0200 (CEST) Received: from nrubsig.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by jupiterb48.nrubsig.org (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l49C6cNw002746; Wed, 09 May 2007 14:06:38 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 14:06:38 +0200 From: Roland Mainz Subject: Re: PSARC FastTrack [PSARC/2007/233]: Default shellenvironment:machine ksh93/back environment Sender: gisburn@jupiterb48.nrubsig.org To: Casper.Dik@sun.com Cc: Charles Debardeleben , David.Comay@sun.com, PSARC-EXT@sun.com, shell-discuss@opensolaris.org Message-id: <4641B94E.E64BA4B1@nrubsig.org> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.11 sun4u) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <462F7AEA.7060609@Sun.COM> <4638C074.CD692B71@nrubsig.org> <4638FBBC.2050007@sun.com> <463BF9AD.7B797D50@nrubsig.org> <200705050932.l459W1jn008092@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> <4641A3E2.77B27D2C@nrubsig.org> <200705091105.l49B5smL059626@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> Status: RO Content-Length: 5555 Casper.Dik@Sun.COM wrote: > >And how can we update those files in the user accounts ? At least in > >europe there are issues with data privacy and many sites explicitly > >disallow any channges of per-user data by admins without the explicit > >permission of the users. Anything delivered to the users ${HOME} is > >"fixed in stone" and cannot easily be changed anymore once it is > >delivered to the user. > > Correct. And that is where we have a difference of opinion; I believe > that it is wrong for us to force changes upon existing users. You already do that if you deploy new versions of the same software... > I, for one, > would be *extremely* unhappy if someone messed with my default path, TMPDIR > and PAGER settings. But it is fine to change that for new users and > new accounts. But we will never get rid of the contents in ~/.profile, ~/.bashrc and ~/.kshrc. These files are close to be an ultimate nightmare for the admins. I am now doing several years some admin job and we still have problems with old accounts using these files and can't get rid of them without writing xx@@@!!-emails do each single xx@@@!!-user. Imagine how "funny" such a problem is... > >Imagine larger university sites with something like ~~80000 accounts. If > >you put the "wrong" things into ~/.profile, ~/.bashrc and/or ~/.kshrc > >this will result in a horror for the admins. > > Well, such sites may choose to implement reasonable site specific changes > to the /etc files. > > How happy do you think the admin of a site of 80000 users will be if > the new settings in /etc/profile broke their existing customized > login and .shellrc scripts? If this causes problems the admins can edit the machine-/site-wide files. Even in the worst case this is much better than sending lots of emails to grouchy users. At least the admins get the _choice_. > I don't buy the argument that a site with 8000 users is helped by us > changing the settings in /etc/profile and ilk; perhaps your site because > the default closely match what your site wants. But I don't see this > mapping in the same way to other sites. > > Part of the argument is changing the usability for *new* users; but > this proposal has nothing to do with *new* users at all; it inflicts > change upon the 100,000s of users already using Solaris. > > My /etc/skel counter proposal is aimed squarely at those new users. And how will the /etc/skel/-propsal handle the case if we fix ksh93's "multiline" editor option and then enable it by default in /etc/ksh.kshrc ? Old users won't get it. > I have no argument with changing man to be more intelligent in > searching for manual pages, BTW. Ok... but that's a different ARC case... ;-/ > >That's why this case explicitly says that the matching files in > >/etc/skel/ should be delivered _empty_ except comments that admins > >should edit the machine-wide files (e.g. /etc/profile, /etc/bash.bashrc > >and /etc/ksh.kshrc for side-/machine-wide defaults). > > And I strong disagree, unless the proposal also leaves all of the > /etc files UNCHANGED. Erm, /etc/bash.bashrc and /etc/bash.bash_logout are _new_ files, only /etc/ksh.kshrc will be changed to set PS1 if not set yet. [snip] > I have little problems with new defaults for ksh93 or any shells, but I > would like to keep the paths in sync. Erm, what do you mean with "keeping the paths in sync" ? > But anything which requires users to make changes to their .* files to > undo Solaris inflicted change is wrong, IMO. > > And don't give me any argument based on law; apart from being incorrect, > as there is no problem in drawing up a policy which allows the administrator > to edit those files, there is still nothing which prevents you from > changing these files yourself. I doubt anyone would give the univesity admins such a permission. Maybe I wasn't clear about how serious the issue is: Violating data privacy is - at least in germany - a _fireable_ _offense_ and drawing up a policy will likely not work since the data protection commissioner will start ranting (unless you try to hide the change from him/her) and the public outcry would force the officials to withdraw such a permission. We have enougth precedent for that here in germany, ranging from the current bickering about privacy issues with the electronic health card to up privacy issues with the Linux migrations in some local parliaments. > "But we don't want to do that" is not a valid argument; it gives rise > to the ridiculous notion that these defaults are the only ones anyone > would want. > > As it is, there are other problems which need to be addressed regardless > of the outcome of the discussion: > > - the upgrade process currently makes some edits to the > "skel" and /etc/* files > > this mechanism does not seem to be suited to the wholesale set > of changes proposed here (also because any changes by the > administrator to the files to revert the new defaults may be > then later undone) > > Options: > Punt > (edit only those things which are actual bugs and don't bother > ever updating the files after a system is installed) > > Overwrite > (copy the new file in place, regardless of the old content) 3rd option: Rename old, put new one in it's location and send the admin an email. ---- Bye, Roland -- __ . . __ (o.\ \/ /.o) roland.mainz@nrubsig.org \__\/\/__/ MPEG specialist, C&&JAVA&&Sun&&Unix programmer /O /==\ O\ TEL +49 641 7950090 (;O/ \/ \O;) From roland.mainz@nrubsig.org Wed May 9 05:21:16 2007 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l49CLGJc005056 for ; Wed, 9 May 2007 05:21:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l49CKCkI020297; Wed, 9 May 2007 05:20:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JHR00I25WXNED00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 09 May 2007 05:20:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com ([192.18.98.34]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JHR00HPPWXLUW00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 09 May 2007 05:20:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay21.sun.com (relay21.sun.com [192.12.251.14] (may be forged)) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l49CK8hK007178; Wed, 09 May 2007 12:20:08 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mms22es.sun.com ([150.143.232.34] [150.143.232.34]) by relay21.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-2211738; Wed, 09 May 2007 12:20:08 +0000 (Z) Received: from mms25bas.mms.us.syntegra.com (ip192-12-251-90.block6.us.syntegra.com [192.12.251.90]) by mms22es.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-2222877; Wed, 09 May 2007 12:20:08 +0000 (Z) Received: from mail-in-09.arcor-online.net ([151.189.21.49] [151.189.21.49]) by relay21.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-6193608; Wed, 09 May 2007 12:20:06 +0000 (Z) Received: from mail-in-04-z2.arcor-online.net (mail-in-04-z2.arcor-online.net [151.189.8.16]) by mail-in-09.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23B8817B82A; Wed, 09 May 2007 14:20:05 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mail-in-13.arcor-online.net (mail-in-13.arcor-online.net [151.189.21.53]) by mail-in-04-z2.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0B1CABAEC; Wed, 09 May 2007 14:20:04 +0200 (CEST) Received: from jupiterb48.nrubsig.org (dslb-084-058-249-186.pools.arcor-ip.net [84.58.249.186]) by mail-in-13.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84AF223D1E2; Wed, 09 May 2007 14:20:04 +0200 (CEST) Received: from nrubsig.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by jupiterb48.nrubsig.org (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l49CK2Kr002751; Wed, 09 May 2007 14:20:02 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 14:20:01 +0200 From: Roland Mainz Subject: Re: [shell-discuss] Re: PSARC FastTrack [PSARC/2007/233]:Defaultshellenvironment:machine ksh93/back environment Sender: gisburn@jupiterb48.nrubsig.org To: Shells discussion Cc: PSARC-EXT@sun.com, Charles DeBardeleben , David.Comay@sun.com Message-id: <4641BC71.FBD54D0C@nrubsig.org> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.11 sun4u) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <462F7AEA.7060609@Sun.COM> <4638C074.CD692B71@nrubsig.org> <4638FBBC.2050007@sun.com> <463BF9AD.7B797D50@nrubsig.org> <200705050932.l459W1jn008092@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> <463c5279.nvAo/H6FzWkEfTNH%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <463F6800.1000705@sun.com> <4641A879.8A76559A@nrubsig.org> <200705091113.l49BD0Qv064672@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> Status: RO Content-Length: 3400 Casper.Dik@Sun.COM wrote: > >Erm, the same will happen if we update shells like "bash" which enable > >some switches/features by default. And you even have the reverse problem > >- for example with ksh93: ksh93 does not enable any flags by default as > >required by the POSIX shell standard. Unfortunately this is bad for > >usuablity (e..g no working cursor keys or history - if you think this is > >acceptable go to the ksh93-integration archives and read the postings > >about TAB-TAB, history etc (AFAIK a few hundred postings just about > >these "little usability things")) and that's why we had an extra ARC > >case (PSARC 2006/587) to populate /etc/ksh.kshrc and enable the "gmacs" > >editor mode there to match the requests by the community. > > Upgrades of binaries which radically change behaviour is a problem. > We've not allowed that in the past but we are allowing that now, > albeit with some qualms (and being on the receiving end is never > fun; the continuous retraining with netscape/mozilla/firefox is > not a fun experience; BTW: Did you notice which email client I am using ? :-) > whenever one thing improves another thing > invariably gets worse, like the hokey per-tab closeboxes) Slight offtopic: I wish Solaris would stick with "Seamonkey" (=ex-Mozilla, e.g. the all-in-one Web/Mail/Calendar thing). The idea to run seperate, resource-hungry Gecko engines for Webbrowser ("FireFox"), Email client ("ThunderBird") and Calendar ("SunBird") is another horror. The SunRay servers usually do not have enougth DIMM slots to satisfy the memory hunger of each of these tasks runs an own application... > So we're going down that path some; I'm not sure we should go down > that path even further, especially when there are reasonable alternatives. I strongly think that putting any new defaults into /etc/skel/ files is the wrong solution. I am still suffering from the mistakes done by my predecessor six years ago and other sites are in a similar situation. > >Or short: This ARC case (which proposes to ses PS1) is just an extension > >of PSARC 2006/587, following the precedent made there. > > Can you give me the invocation of "kshelless" with sets the prompt back > to "$ " or "# " respecitively? You mean fall-back to the builtin defaults ? If "yes" that would be a simple $ unset PS1 # ... :-) > >I am not sure for /etc/profile but /etc/ksh.kshrc and /etc/bash.bashrc > >are for interactive shells _only_ and the setting of PS1 and the editor > >are local shell variables/settings which are not exported into the > >environment (e.g. process children won't get the changes unless you do > >something like $ export PS1 #). > > /etc/profile is for login shells; there's no way to run anything specifically > for an interactive "Bourne" shell. > > (I may be confusing my cases here, but since all cases are intertwined > it's perhaps an idea to merge the default settings cases in one) Uhm... I hope we can get at least one or two of them "approved" without derail&&vote (the default for PS1 based on the precedent of SuSE, Ubuntu and Debian4.0 looked like a near-consens a few days ago... ;-/ )... I am not sure whether merging them would make the chaos better or worse... ;-/ ---- Bye, Roland -- __ . . __ (o.\ \/ /.o) roland.mainz@nrubsig.org \__\/\/__/ MPEG specialist, C&&JAVA&&Sun&&Unix programmer /O /==\ O\ TEL +49 641 7950090 (;O/ \/ \O;) From roland.mainz@nrubsig.org Wed May 9 05:39:27 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l49CdQw6005450 for ; Wed, 9 May 2007 05:39:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l49CcHGW016749; Wed, 9 May 2007 13:38:20 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JHR00007XRTJ300@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 09 May 2007 05:38:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com ([192.18.98.34]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JHR00D21XRTWE90@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 09 May 2007 05:38:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay21.sun.com (relay21.sun.com [192.12.251.14] (may be forged)) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l49CcGoA016109; Wed, 09 May 2007 12:38:16 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mms23es.sun.com ([150.143.232.54] [150.143.232.54]) by relay21.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-2212677; Wed, 09 May 2007 12:38:16 +0000 (Z) Received: from mms24bas.mms.us.syntegra.com (relay24.mms.us.syntegra.com [192.12.251.70]) by mms23es.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-2298956; Wed, 09 May 2007 12:38:15 +0000 (Z) Received: from mail-in-03.arcor-online.net ([151.189.21.43] [151.189.21.43]) by relay24.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-7031717; Wed, 09 May 2007 12:38:13 +0000 (Z) Received: from mail-in-13-z2.arcor-online.net (mail-in-13-z2.arcor-online.net [151.189.8.30]) by mail-in-03.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C36B2760BC; Wed, 09 May 2007 14:38:11 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mail-in-01.arcor-online.net (mail-in-01.arcor-online.net [151.189.21.41]) by mail-in-13-z2.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13A471B8E58; Wed, 09 May 2007 14:38:11 +0200 (CEST) Received: from jupiterb48.nrubsig.org (dslb-084-058-249-186.pools.arcor-ip.net [84.58.249.186]) by mail-in-01.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FF1119B325; Wed, 09 May 2007 14:38:10 +0200 (CEST) Received: from nrubsig.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by jupiterb48.nrubsig.org (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l49Cc8fx002757; Wed, 09 May 2007 14:38:08 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 14:38:08 +0200 From: Roland Mainz Subject: Re: PSARC FastTrack [PSARC/2007/233]: Default shellenvironment:machine ksh93/back environment Sender: gisburn@jupiterb48.nrubsig.org To: Casper.Dik@sun.com Cc: Nicolas Williams , shell-discuss@opensolaris.org, Charles Debardeleben , PSARC-EXT@sun.com Message-id: <4641C0B0.AD62A44F@nrubsig.org> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.11 sun4u) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <462F7AEA.7060609@Sun.COM> <4638C074.CD692B71@nrubsig.org> <4638FBBC.2050007@sun.com> <463BF9AD.7B797D50@nrubsig.org> <200705050932.l459W1jn008092@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> <20070507184805.GH9159@Sun.COM> <4641AF57.A46E617F@nrubsig.org> <200705091134.l49BYEpj014537@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> Status: RO Content-Length: 2645 Casper.Dik@Sun.COM wrote: > >Nicolas Williams wrote: > >> On Sat, May 05, 2007 at 11:32:01AM +0200, Casper.Dik@Sun.COM wrote: > >> > Then it occurs to me that setting them in /etc/profile, /etc/*rc* > >> > is WRONG. > >> > >> Right: how does one write class action scripts to update these shell > >> scripts? > > > >Erm, what about doing the same as we did for /etc/ksh.kshrc as > >introduced by PSARC 2006/550+2006/587 and set the package database entry > >to "e renameold" ? > > Hm, that will really make administrators happy. Uhm... was that sarcastic (note: I don't have a good builtin sense for sarcasm... it usuaully results in problems that I misunderstand people and trouble follows... ;-( ) ? IMO at least it's better than an "automated" thing which tries to patch a script like /etc/profile. Guess why I do not prefer Solaris updates and do reinstalls from scatch (the "cleanup" after the updates usually takes more time than a clean reinstall from scratch) ? > Note that /etc/ksh.kshrc is still an essentially new file and > ksh93 a new part, so any settings for it are not what I would consider > random change inflicted on existing users. > > But renameold and the other edits are a poor solution. I slightly disagree. The general work-in-process state of the ksh93-integration project and the size+complexity (three lines) of the current /etc/ksh.kshrc script does IMO not justify the creation of a more complex "update" mechanism which later generates more heaches in this case. The file is maintained in sync with the ksh93 updates anyway. > Perhaps we should migrate to something like: > > # Include default ksh. > . /etc/ksh.kshrc.default > > and edit them a final time (so administrators can customize them > to their hearts content and we have no longer a problem updating the > defaults) Umpf... technially we'll get something similar with /etc/env.d/ (it works like /etc/profile.d/ except that supports more "methods" than just profile shells (e.g. methods={ login, logout, interactive_shell_start, interactive_shell_exit etc. } ) and has some "clever" enummeration/tagging/filter scheme) later where you can "inject" scripts (e.g. Solaris provides /etc/env.d/interactive/I010prompt.sh and a site could override these settings in /etc/env.d/interactive/I990prompt_mysite.sh (or I010prompt,pri=20.sh)) in the profile or interactive shell startup chain. Unfortunately /etc/env.d/ is still in my ToDo queue... ;-( ---- Bye, Roland -- __ . . __ (o.\ \/ /.o) roland.mainz@nrubsig.org \__\/\/__/ MPEG specialist, C&&JAVA&&Sun&&Unix programmer /O /==\ O\ TEL +49 641 7950090 (;O/ \/ \O;) From carlsonj@phorcys.east.sun.com Wed May 9 05:50:47 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l49CokhU005733 for ; Wed, 9 May 2007 05:50:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l49CnTsg020460; Wed, 9 May 2007 13:49:41 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JHR00J07YARP000@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 09 May 2007 05:49:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com ([129.148.174.143]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JHR00HHKYAQUW20@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 09 May 2007 05:49:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l49Cncvl014854; Wed, 09 May 2007 08:49:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from carlsonj@localhost) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1/Submit) id l49Cnc5o014851; Wed, 09 May 2007 08:49:38 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 08:49:38 -0400 From: James Carlson Subject: Re: [shell-discuss] Re: PSARC FastTrack [PSARC/2007/233]:Defaultshellenvironment:machine ksh93/back environment In-reply-to: <4641BC71.FBD54D0C@nrubsig.org> To: Roland Mainz Cc: Shells discussion , PSARC-EXT@sun.com, Charles DeBardeleben , David.Comay@sun.com Message-id: <17985.50018.212537.51647@gargle.gargle.HOWL> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: VM 7.01 under Emacs 21.3.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <462F7AEA.7060609@Sun.COM> <4638C074.CD692B71@nrubsig.org> <4638FBBC.2050007@sun.com> <463BF9AD.7B797D50@nrubsig.org> <200705050932.l459W1jn008092@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> <463c5279.nvAo/H6FzWkEfTNH%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <463F6800.1000705@sun.com> <4641A879.8A76559A@nrubsig.org> <200705091113.l49BD0Qv064672@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> <4641BC71.FBD54D0C@nrubsig.org> Status: RO Content-Length: 1754 Roland Mainz writes: > Casper.Dik@Sun.COM wrote: > > So we're going down that path some; I'm not sure we should go down > > that path even further, especially when there are reasonable alternatives. > > I strongly think that putting any new defaults into /etc/skel/ files is > the wrong solution. I am still suffering from the mistakes done by my > predecessor six years ago and other sites are in a similar situation. I think it's possible to achieve a balance here. If the /etc/skel/.profile were to source a file elsewhere in /etc (such as /etc/default), then almost all of the constraints would be satisfied: - Existing users would not see any change as a result of this project. - Newly-created users would see the default environment. - The default environment would be centrally-located and could be updated in the future without having to visit each user's local home directory. You could even make that two separate files -- one for defaults delivered by the OS distribution, and another for defaults set by the local administrator. (One type 'f' in packaging, the other intentionally not delivered at all.) The one constraint not satisified is for the admin who has thousands of existing "dumb" users -- those users who have their own .profile, but who are unable to modify it. It seems to me that though this is an important concern, it's still a one-time issue, and I'd be surprised if reasonable administrators hadn't already taken an approach like the above for just this sort of reason. -- James Carlson, Solaris Networking Sun Microsystems / 1 Network Drive 71.232W Vox +1 781 442 2084 MS UBUR02-212 / Burlington MA 01803-2757 42.496N Fax +1 781 442 1677 From Nicolas.Williams@sun.com Wed May 9 06:18:09 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l49DI8YW006756 for ; Wed, 9 May 2007 06:18:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l49DGx41015897; Wed, 9 May 2007 21:17:03 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JHR00B2JZKDJF00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 09 May 2007 07:17:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from binky.central.sun.com ([129.153.128.104]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JHR00K00ZKCVO90@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 09 May 2007 07:17:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from binky.central.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by binky.central.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l49DFm8i012008; Wed, 09 May 2007 08:15:48 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from nw141292@localhost) by binky.central.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/Submit) id l49DFiSE012007; Wed, 09 May 2007 08:15:44 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 08:15:44 -0500 From: Nicolas Williams Subject: Re: [shell-discuss] Re: PSARC FastTrack [PSARC/2007/233]: Default shellenvironment:machine ksh93/back environment In-reply-to: <4641A9B2.52FBFD46@nrubsig.org> To: Roland Mainz Cc: Shawn Walker , Shells discussion , David.Comay@sun.com, Charles Debardeleben , PSARC-EXT@sun.com Message-id: <20070509131542.GG10560@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <462F7AEA.7060609@Sun.COM> <4638C074.CD692B71@nrubsig.org> <4638FBBC.2050007@sun.com> <463BF9AD.7B797D50@nrubsig.org> <200705050932.l459W1jn008092@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> <4641A9B2.52FBFD46@nrubsig.org> X-Authentication-warning: binky.central.sun.com: nw141292 set sender to Nicolas.Williams@sun.com using -f User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.7i Status: RO Content-Length: 781 On Wed, May 09, 2007 at 01:00:02PM +0200, Roland Mainz wrote: > How would you "update" the installed ~/.profile , ~/.kshrc or ~/.bashrc > files ? [...] Q: How would you update /etc/profile et. al. in the future when you want to change them again? Answer: You can't; you can only replace their content (thus overwriting customer editable content) or leave them alone (thus not delivering whatever feature). That won't do. The /etc/skel files, on the other hand, are more easily updateable as they only affect new accounts. AND you can do better than /etc/skel files too! Build the better PAGER/MANPATH defaults into man(1), repeat for all tools whose defaults you wish to change, including the shells. This is easily upgradeable too: just change the programs. Nico -- From Nicolas.Williams@sun.com Wed May 9 06:18:30 2007 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l49DIUel006774 for ; Wed, 9 May 2007 06:18:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l49DHQH0009755; Wed, 9 May 2007 06:17:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JHR00B1GZL2M400@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 09 May 2007 07:17:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from binky.central.sun.com ([129.153.128.104]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JHR00KCPZL1VHA0@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 09 May 2007 07:17:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from binky.central.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by binky.central.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l49DGDo8012015; Wed, 09 May 2007 08:16:13 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from nw141292@localhost) by binky.central.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/Submit) id l49DGDOi012014; Wed, 09 May 2007 08:16:13 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 08:16:13 -0500 From: Nicolas Williams Subject: Re: PSARC FastTrack [PSARC/2007/233]: Default shellenvironment:machine ksh93/back environment In-reply-to: <4641AF57.A46E617F@nrubsig.org> To: Roland Mainz Cc: Casper.Dik@sun.com, shell-discuss@opensolaris.org, Charles Debardeleben , PSARC-EXT@sun.com Message-id: <20070509131612.GH10560@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <462F7AEA.7060609@Sun.COM> <4638C074.CD692B71@nrubsig.org> <4638FBBC.2050007@sun.com> <463BF9AD.7B797D50@nrubsig.org> <200705050932.l459W1jn008092@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> <20070507184805.GH9159@Sun.COM> <4641AF57.A46E617F@nrubsig.org> X-Authentication-warning: binky.central.sun.com: nw141292 set sender to Nicolas.Williams@sun.com using -f User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.7i Status: RO Content-Length: 530 On Wed, May 09, 2007 at 01:24:07PM +0200, Roland Mainz wrote: > Nicolas Williams wrote: > > On Sat, May 05, 2007 at 11:32:01AM +0200, Casper.Dik@Sun.COM wrote: > > > Then it occurs to me that setting them in /etc/profile, /etc/*rc* > > > is WRONG. > > > > Right: how does one write class action scripts to update these shell > > scripts? > > Erm, what about doing the same as we did for /etc/ksh.kshrc as > introduced by PSARC 2006/550+2006/587 and set the package database entry > to "e renameold" ? I think that's a mistake. From Nicolas.Williams@sun.com Wed May 9 06:26:21 2007 Received: from newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (newsunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.245]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l49DQL3t007082 for ; Wed, 9 May 2007 06:26:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l49DPE10064983; Wed, 9 May 2007 07:25:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JHR0040LZY3VI00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 09 May 2007 06:25:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from binky.central.sun.com ([129.153.128.104]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JHR00DL0ZXYWED0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 09 May 2007 06:25:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from binky.central.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by binky.central.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l49DNwlm012035; Wed, 09 May 2007 08:23:58 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from nw141292@localhost) by binky.central.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/Submit) id l49DNwO1012034; Wed, 09 May 2007 08:23:58 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 08:23:58 -0500 From: Nicolas Williams Subject: Re: PSARC FastTrack [PSARC/2007/233]: Default shellenvironment:machine ksh93/back environment In-reply-to: <4641B49D.7040209@Sun.COM> To: Darren J Moffat Cc: Roland Mainz , David.Comay@sun.com, shell-discuss@opensolaris.org, PSARC-EXT@sun.com, Charles Debardeleben , Casper.Dik@sun.com Message-id: <20070509132357.GJ10560@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <462F7AEA.7060609@Sun.COM> <4638C074.CD692B71@nrubsig.org> <4638FBBC.2050007@sun.com> <463BF9AD.7B797D50@nrubsig.org> <200705050932.l459W1jn008092@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> <4641A3E2.77B27D2C@nrubsig.org> <4641B49D.7040209@Sun.COM> X-Authentication-warning: binky.central.sun.com: nw141292 set sender to Nicolas.Williams@sun.com using -f User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.7i Status: RO Content-Length: 619 On Wed, May 09, 2007 at 12:46:37PM +0100, Darren J Moffat wrote: > One of the things that has occurred to me in sponsoring this case is > that these are exactly the types of things that each OpenSolaris > distribution could be doing differently. So is this really an > OpenSolaris case or a case for changing Sun's OpenSolaris distribution ? Depends on how we solve the problem at hand. If we "edit" customer- editable files then other OpenSolaris distros could do what they like with ease. If we build in better defaults into the actual programs then it will be harder for other OpenSolaris distros to diverge. From brian.gupta@gmail.com Wed May 9 06:26:51 2007 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l49DQp9F007106 for ; Wed, 9 May 2007 06:26:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l49DPmLn006129 for <@sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-EXT@sun.com>; Wed, 9 May 2007 06:25:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JHR00L0BZZ01R00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Wed, 09 May 2007 06:25:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com ([192.18.98.34]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JHR00HFEZYXV550@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Wed, 09 May 2007 06:25:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay3.sun.com (relay3.sun.com [150.143.103.54] (may be forged)) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l49CnuiV021139 for ; Wed, 09 May 2007 13:25:44 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mms05es.sun.com ([150.143.104.94] [150.143.104.94]) by relay3.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-79748 for PSARC-EXT@sun.com; Wed, 09 May 2007 13:25:15 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay3.sun.com (relay3.sun.com [150.143.103.54]) by mms05es.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-1916474 for PSARC-EXT@sun.com; Wed, 09 May 2007 13:25:15 +0000 (Z) Received: from an-out-0708.google.com ([209.85.132.243] [209.85.132.243]) by relay3.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-549266 for PSARC-EXT@sun.com; Wed, 09 May 2007 13:25:15 +0000 (Z) Received: by an-out-0708.google.com with SMTP id c24so55912ana for ; Wed, 09 May 2007 06:25:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.100.34.16 with SMTP id h16mr349405anh.1178717114393; Wed, 09 May 2007 06:25:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.100.3.13 with HTTP; Wed, 09 May 2007 06:25:14 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 09:25:14 -0400 From: Brian Gupta Subject: Re: [shell-discuss] Re: PSARC FastTrack [PSARC/2007/233]: Default shellenvironment:machine ksh93/back environment In-reply-to: <20070509131542.GG10560@Sun.COM> To: Nicolas Williams Cc: Roland Mainz , PSARC-EXT@sun.com, Shawn Walker , Charles Debardeleben , Shells discussion Message-id: <5b5090780705090625i7a5d50e8j2725535aa8cdd45@mail.gmail.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=mZMqWte1tNuVPV3ljdsRwhIe7iz9sTr7Huh4S95cWdDzGqR8JPyYFYKlx7F6TpLMyoeSefIUpIcfTd2CEC4e//jVMwfj1gnYkVIV+UjYIM1I/Rv2VzfiHW2mUakXWluFACcYe6xyOwqCGM75vO6s33pRTbSYxKsNF4NU39hSNZk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=Pg+vbHOI/90ovFZERtJJSP4Tsbvs2Moc70BI+61SfI8Ue1mGM9abmcxvHyjO83SNKajeNyLrCpeNLFY0S/PYUnO1QfGsE5xSqn83k2CK/x01Y13Lp29CkaiQsJtXOlgaS5XU3U9Mx3djJ2MByX5sjZyjUl5Cc0rm8qPxpDJyNmk= X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <462F7AEA.7060609@Sun.COM> <4638C074.CD692B71@nrubsig.org> <4638FBBC.2050007@sun.com> <463BF9AD.7B797D50@nrubsig.org> <200705050932.l459W1jn008092@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> <4641A9B2.52FBFD46@nrubsig.org> <20070509131542.GG10560@Sun.COM> Status: RO Content-Length: 1365 Here's a crazy thought. Might you add an installation option, "Default shell configuration" a) (Default) Expert - This setting offers the most compatibility with older systems 2) Novice - This setting configures the default shell environment with defaults that make new user's lives easier. The text needs to be tweaked, but you get the idea. -Brian On 5/9/07, Nicolas Williams wrote: > On Wed, May 09, 2007 at 01:00:02PM +0200, Roland Mainz wrote: > > How would you "update" the installed ~/.profile , ~/.kshrc or ~/.bashrc > > files ? [...] > > Q: How would you update /etc/profile et. al. in the future when you want > to change them again? > > Answer: You can't; you can only replace their content (thus overwriting > customer editable content) or leave them alone (thus not > delivering whatever feature). > > That won't do. The /etc/skel files, on the other hand, are more easily > updateable as they only affect new accounts. > > AND you can do better than /etc/skel files too! > > Build the better PAGER/MANPATH defaults into man(1), repeat for all > tools whose defaults you wish to change, including the shells. This is > easily upgradeable too: just change the programs. > > Nico > -- > _______________________________________________ > opensolaris-arc mailing list > opensolaris-arc@opensolaris.org > From Nicolas.Williams@sun.com Wed May 9 06:32:40 2007 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l49DWe54007373 for ; Wed, 9 May 2007 06:32:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l49DVaBB008013; Wed, 9 May 2007 06:31:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JHS00L0F08OBZ00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 09 May 2007 06:31:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from binky.central.sun.com ([129.153.128.104]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JHS00HXK08NV640@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 09 May 2007 06:31:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from binky.central.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by binky.central.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l49DUMdK012049; Wed, 09 May 2007 08:30:22 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from nw141292@localhost) by binky.central.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/Submit) id l49DUMqq012048; Wed, 09 May 2007 08:30:22 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 08:30:22 -0500 From: Nicolas Williams Subject: Re: PSARC FastTrack [PSARC/2007/233]: Default shellenvironment:machine ksh93/back environment In-reply-to: <4641B94E.E64BA4B1@nrubsig.org> To: Roland Mainz Cc: Casper.Dik@sun.com, shell-discuss@opensolaris.org, Charles Debardeleben , PSARC-EXT@sun.com Message-id: <20070509133022.GK10560@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <462F7AEA.7060609@Sun.COM> <4638C074.CD692B71@nrubsig.org> <4638FBBC.2050007@sun.com> <463BF9AD.7B797D50@nrubsig.org> <200705050932.l459W1jn008092@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> <4641A3E2.77B27D2C@nrubsig.org> <200705091105.l49B5smL059626@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> <4641B94E.E64BA4B1@nrubsig.org> X-Authentication-warning: binky.central.sun.com: nw141292 set sender to Nicolas.Williams@sun.com using -f User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.7i Status: RO Content-Length: 1197 On Wed, May 09, 2007 at 02:06:38PM +0200, Roland Mainz wrote: > If this causes problems the admins can edit the machine-/site-wide > files. Even in the worst case this is much better than sending lots of > emails to grouchy users. At least the admins get the _choice_. Sysadmins can't be expected to, and shouldn't have to edit the local machine files after every update/patch release. This is crucial. Look at other options. We've offered some. > > I have no argument with changing man to be more intelligent in > > searching for manual pages, BTW. > > Ok... but that's a different ARC case... ;-/ Not if this case intended to ship better defaults for man(1) (and other programs) in /etc/profile and friends. > Erm, /etc/bash.bashrc and /etc/bash.bash_logout are _new_ files, only > /etc/ksh.kshrc will be changed to set PS1 if not set yet. You get to do this once, then after that you either replace customer content or you don't install new content. On Update. On patch. That's just not nice. > 3rd option: Rename old, put new one in it's location and send the admin > an email. Absolutely not. Not on patch. Not on update. Send e-mail?! That won't fix the problem. Nico -- From Nicolas.Williams@sun.com Wed May 9 06:40:52 2007 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l49Deqa5007778 for ; Wed, 9 May 2007 06:40:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l49DdnI2010571; Wed, 9 May 2007 06:39:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JHS0062H0M99D00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 09 May 2007 06:39:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from binky.central.sun.com ([129.153.128.104]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JHS0068U0M73J00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 09 May 2007 06:39:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from binky.central.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by binky.central.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l49DcVwN012074; Wed, 09 May 2007 08:38:31 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from nw141292@localhost) by binky.central.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/Submit) id l49DcVEb012073; Wed, 09 May 2007 08:38:31 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 08:38:31 -0500 From: Nicolas Williams Subject: Re: [shell-discuss] Re: PSARC FastTrack [PSARC/2007/233]: Default shellenvironment:machine ksh93/back environment In-reply-to: <5b5090780705090625i7a5d50e8j2725535aa8cdd45@mail.gmail.com> To: Brian Gupta Cc: Roland Mainz , PSARC-EXT@sun.com, Shawn Walker , Charles Debardeleben , Shells discussion Message-id: <20070509133830.GL10560@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <462F7AEA.7060609@Sun.COM> <4638C074.CD692B71@nrubsig.org> <4638FBBC.2050007@sun.com> <463BF9AD.7B797D50@nrubsig.org> <200705050932.l459W1jn008092@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> <4641A9B2.52FBFD46@nrubsig.org> <20070509131542.GG10560@Sun.COM> <5b5090780705090625i7a5d50e8j2725535aa8cdd45@mail.gmail.com> X-Authentication-warning: binky.central.sun.com: nw141292 set sender to Nicolas.Williams@sun.com using -f User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.7i Status: RO Content-Length: 590 On Wed, May 09, 2007 at 09:25:14AM -0400, Brian Gupta wrote: > Here's a crazy thought. Might you add an installation option, "Default > shell configuration" > > a) (Default) Expert - This setting offers the most compatibility with > older systems > 2) Novice - This setting configures the default shell environment with > defaults that make new user's lives easier. > > The text needs to be tweaked, but you get the idea. More install-time options? Why can't we just fix the defaults in the programs themselves? That adds no new knobs, and it has very good update semantics. Nico -- From roland.mainz@nrubsig.org Wed May 9 06:44:08 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l49Di7bQ007866 for ; Wed, 9 May 2007 06:44:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l49DguFJ025218; Wed, 9 May 2007 21:42:59 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JHS00L610RLNM00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 09 May 2007 06:42:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sca-ea-mail-3.sun.com ([192.18.43.21]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JHS00H0C0QSUZ70@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 09 May 2007 06:42:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay23.sun.com (relay23.sun.com [192.12.251.54] (may be forged)) by sca-ea-mail-3.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l49DgSn5015755; Wed, 09 May 2007 13:42:28 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mms25es.sun.com ([150.143.232.94] [150.143.232.94]) by relay23.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-49845; Wed, 09 May 2007 13:42:18 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay22.sun.com (relay22.sun.com [192.12.251.34]) by mms25es.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-2095339; Wed, 09 May 2007 13:42:18 +0000 (Z) Received: from mail-in-06.arcor-online.net ([151.189.21.46] [151.189.21.46]) by relay22.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-463722; Wed, 09 May 2007 13:42:18 +0000 (Z) Received: from mail-in-01-z2.arcor-online.net (mail-in-07-z2.arcor-online.net [151.189.8.19]) by mail-in-06.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 785C12C8CC7; Wed, 09 May 2007 15:42:17 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mail-in-03.arcor-online.net (mail-in-03.arcor-online.net [151.189.21.43]) by mail-in-01-z2.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 666552C6D48; Wed, 09 May 2007 15:42:17 +0200 (CEST) Received: from jupiterb48.nrubsig.org (dslb-084-058-249-186.pools.arcor-ip.net [84.58.249.186]) by mail-in-03.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0AB9F3425E5; Wed, 09 May 2007 15:42:17 +0200 (CEST) Received: from nrubsig.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by jupiterb48.nrubsig.org (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l49DgEl2002772; Wed, 09 May 2007 15:42:15 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 15:42:14 +0200 From: Roland Mainz Subject: Re: PSARC FastTrack [PSARC/2007/233]: Default shellenvironment:machine ksh93/back environment Sender: gisburn@jupiterb48.nrubsig.org To: Nicolas Williams Cc: Casper.Dik@sun.com, shell-discuss@opensolaris.org, Charles Debardeleben , PSARC-EXT@sun.com Message-id: <4641CFB6.8D0FDE04@nrubsig.org> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.11 sun4u) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <462F7AEA.7060609@Sun.COM> <4638C074.CD692B71@nrubsig.org> <4638FBBC.2050007@sun.com> <463BF9AD.7B797D50@nrubsig.org> <200705050932.l459W1jn008092@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> <4641A3E2.77B27D2C@nrubsig.org> <200705091105.l49B5smL059626@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> <4641B94E.E64BA4B1@nrubsig.org> <20070509133022.GK10560@Sun.COM> Status: RO Content-Length: 2072 Nicolas Williams wrote: > On Wed, May 09, 2007 at 02:06:38PM +0200, Roland Mainz wrote: > > If this causes problems the admins can edit the machine-/site-wide > > files. Even in the worst case this is much better than sending lots of > > emails to grouchy users. At least the admins get the _choice_. > > Sysadmins can't be expected to, and shouldn't have to edit the local > machine files after every update/patch release. This is crucial. > > Look at other options. We've offered some. Both options included putting more stuff into /etc/skel/. In that case it may be better to revoke this case (PSARC 2007/233) instead of causing even _more_ /etc/skel/-related nightmares for the admins. > > > I have no argument with changing man to be more intelligent in > > > searching for manual pages, BTW. > > > > Ok... but that's a different ARC case... ;-/ > > Not if this case intended to ship better defaults for man(1) (and other > programs) in /etc/profile and friends. > > > Erm, /etc/bash.bashrc and /etc/bash.bash_logout are _new_ files, only > > /etc/ksh.kshrc will be changed to set PS1 if not set yet. > > You get to do this once, then after that you either replace customer > content or you don't install new content. On Update. On patch. That's > just not nice. Not on patch. Both "update" and "reinstall" is Ok since the admins are in charge of the machines and have to read the documentation and emails. And from my experience the "updates" cause so much damange to installations that this little ToDo-item for the admins won't hurt. Updates are never working out of the box and manual adminstments are always required. > > 3rd option: Rename old, put new one in it's location and send the admin > > an email. > > Absolutely not. Not on patch. Not on update. Send e-mail?! That > won't fix the problem. Both "update" and "reinstall" would IMHO be acceptable. ---- Bye, Roland -- __ . . __ (o.\ \/ /.o) roland.mainz@nrubsig.org \__\/\/__/ MPEG specialist, C&&JAVA&&Sun&&Unix programmer /O /==\ O\ TEL +49 641 7950090 (;O/ \/ \O;) From Nicolas.Williams@sun.com Wed May 9 06:47:48 2007 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l49Dlmd9007951 for ; Wed, 9 May 2007 06:47:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l49DkhBT014146; Wed, 9 May 2007 06:46:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JHS00L0P0XWTP00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 09 May 2007 06:46:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from binky.central.sun.com ([129.153.128.104]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JHS00H4Y0XVV870@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 09 May 2007 06:46:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from binky.central.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by binky.central.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l49DjUxA012083; Wed, 09 May 2007 08:45:30 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from nw141292@localhost) by binky.central.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/Submit) id l49DjUCj012082; Wed, 09 May 2007 08:45:30 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 08:45:30 -0500 From: Nicolas Williams Subject: Re: PSARC FastTrack [PSARC/2007/233]: Default shellenvironment:machine ksh93/back environment In-reply-to: <4641CFB6.8D0FDE04@nrubsig.org> To: Roland Mainz Cc: Casper.Dik@sun.com, shell-discuss@opensolaris.org, Charles Debardeleben , PSARC-EXT@sun.com Message-id: <20070509134530.GM10560@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <4638C074.CD692B71@nrubsig.org> <4638FBBC.2050007@sun.com> <463BF9AD.7B797D50@nrubsig.org> <200705050932.l459W1jn008092@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> <4641A3E2.77B27D2C@nrubsig.org> <200705091105.l49B5smL059626@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> <4641B94E.E64BA4B1@nrubsig.org> <20070509133022.GK10560@Sun.COM> <4641CFB6.8D0FDE04@nrubsig.org> X-Authentication-warning: binky.central.sun.com: nw141292 set sender to Nicolas.Williams@sun.com using -f User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.7i Status: RO Content-Length: 1689 On Wed, May 09, 2007 at 03:42:14PM +0200, Roland Mainz wrote: > Nicolas Williams wrote: > > Sysadmins can't be expected to, and shouldn't have to edit the local > > machine files after every update/patch release. This is crucial. > > > > Look at other options. We've offered some. > > Both options included putting more stuff into /etc/skel/. In that case > it may be better to revoke this case (PSARC 2007/233) instead of causing > even _more_ /etc/skel/-related nightmares for the admins. OR modify the relevant programs' defaults in the programs themselves. > > > Erm, /etc/bash.bashrc and /etc/bash.bash_logout are _new_ files, only > > > /etc/ksh.kshrc will be changed to set PS1 if not set yet. > > > > You get to do this once, then after that you either replace customer > > content or you don't install new content. On Update. On patch. That's > > just not nice. > > Not on patch. Both "update" and "reinstall" is Ok since the admins are > in charge of the machines and have to read the documentation and emails. Update == patch. > And from my experience the "updates" cause so much damange to > installations that this little ToDo-item for the admins won't hurt. This case won't help. This case can't be predicated on Sun abandoning updates. > Updates are never working out of the box and manual adminstments are > always required. We want updates to work, so please don't make things worse. > > > 3rd option: Rename old, put new one in it's location and send the admin > > > an email. > > > > Absolutely not. Not on patch. Not on update. Send e-mail?! That > > won't fix the problem. > > Both "update" and "reinstall" would IMHO be acceptable. Disagree. From casper@holland.sun.com Wed May 9 06:50:24 2007 Received: from newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (newsunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.245]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l49DoOVm008008 for ; Wed, 9 May 2007 06:50:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l49DnKVt008182; Wed, 9 May 2007 07:49:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JHS00L0H127VF00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 09 May 2007 06:49:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com ([129.159.237.36]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JHS00HHQ126V660@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 09 May 2007 06:49:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from holland (room101 [129.159.248.23]) by sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7) with ESMTP id l49DnHrU003622; Wed, 09 May 2007 15:49:17 +0200 (MEST) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 15:49:12 +0200 From: Casper.Dik@sun.com Subject: Re: [shell-discuss] Re: PSARC FastTrack [PSARC/2007/233]: Default shellenvironment:machine ksh93/back environment In-reply-to: <4641CFB6.8D0FDE04@nrubsig.org> Sender: casper@holland.sun.com To: Shells discussion Cc: Nicolas Williams , PSARC-EXT@sun.com, Charles Debardeleben Message-id: <200705091349.l49DnHrU003622@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <462F7AEA.7060609@Sun.COM> <4638C074.CD692B71@nrubsig.org> <4638FBBC.2050007@sun.com> <463BF9AD.7B797D50@nrubsig.org> <200705050932.l459W1jn008092@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> <4641A3E2.77B27D2C@nrubsig.org> <200705091105.l49B5smL059626@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> <4641B94E.E64BA4B1@nrubsig.org> <20070509133022.GK10560@Sun.COM> <4641CFB6.8D0FDE04@nrubsig.org> Status: RO Content-Length: 813 >Both options included putting more stuff into /etc/skel/. In that case >it may be better to revoke this case (PSARC 2007/233) instead of causing >even _more_ /etc/skel/-related nightmares for the admins. What /etc/skel related nightmare? >Not on patch. Both "update" and "reinstall" is Ok since the admins are >in charge of the machines and have to read the documentation and emails. >And from my experience the "updates" cause so much damange to >installations that this little ToDo-item for the admins won't hurt. >Updates are never working out of the box and manual adminstments are >always required. As someone who upgrades a dozen systems every two weeks, I strongly disagree with that notion. Upgrade needs to be as painless as possible, knowingly overwriting customizations is, IMO, a NO-NO. Casper From Nicolas.Williams@sun.com Wed May 9 06:52:12 2007 Received: from newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (newsunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.245]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l49DqCXZ008076 for ; Wed, 9 May 2007 06:52:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l49Dp7JI009028; Wed, 9 May 2007 07:51:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JHS00E3L158KS00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 09 May 2007 07:51:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from binky.central.sun.com ([129.153.128.104]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JHS00K65155VGD0@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 09 May 2007 07:51:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from binky.central.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by binky.central.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l49Dnrul012092; Wed, 09 May 2007 08:49:53 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from nw141292@localhost) by binky.central.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/Submit) id l49DnqUA012091; Wed, 09 May 2007 08:49:52 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 08:49:52 -0500 From: Nicolas Williams Subject: Re: [shell-discuss] Re: PSARC FastTrack [PSARC/2007/233]:Defaultshellenvironment:machine ksh93/back environment In-reply-to: <17985.50018.212537.51647@gargle.gargle.HOWL> To: James Carlson Cc: Roland Mainz , PSARC-EXT@sun.com, Shells discussion , Charles DeBardeleben Message-id: <20070509134952.GN10560@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <4638C074.CD692B71@nrubsig.org> <4638FBBC.2050007@sun.com> <463BF9AD.7B797D50@nrubsig.org> <200705050932.l459W1jn008092@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> <463c5279.nvAo/H6FzWkEfTNH%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <463F6800.1000705@sun.com> <4641A879.8A76559A@nrubsig.org> <200705091113.l49BD0Qv064672@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> <4641BC71.FBD54D0C@nrubsig.org> <17985.50018.212537.51647@gargle.gargle.HOWL> X-Authentication-warning: binky.central.sun.com: nw141292 set sender to Nicolas.Williams@sun.com using -f User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.7i Status: RO Content-Length: 290 On Wed, May 09, 2007 at 08:49:38AM -0400, James Carlson wrote: > I think it's possible to achieve a balance here. > > If the /etc/skel/.profile were to source a file elsewhere in /etc > (such as /etc/default), then almost all of the constraints would be > satisfied: That would be nice. From roland.mainz@nrubsig.org Wed May 9 06:52:51 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l49Dqon1008103 for ; Wed, 9 May 2007 06:52:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l49DpXJ7029370; Wed, 9 May 2007 21:51:42 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JHS00L3I162X000@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 09 May 2007 06:51:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sca-ea-mail-4.sun.com ([192.18.43.22]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JHS00HRY162V050@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 09 May 2007 06:51:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay24.sun.com (ip192-12-251-74.block6.us.syntegra.com [192.12.251.74]) by sca-ea-mail-4.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l49DpcUu025994; Wed, 09 May 2007 13:51:38 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mms22es.sun.com ([150.143.232.34] [150.143.232.34]) by relay24.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-678778; Wed, 09 May 2007 13:51:37 +0000 (Z) Received: from mms23bas.mms.us.syntegra.com (relay23.mms.us.syntegra.com [192.12.251.50]) by mms22es.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-2276942; Wed, 09 May 2007 13:51:37 +0000 (Z) Received: from mail-in-08.arcor-online.net ([151.189.21.48] [151.189.21.48]) by relay23.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-472450; Wed, 09 May 2007 13:51:37 +0000 (Z) Received: from mail-in-01-z2.arcor-online.net (mail-in-11-z2.arcor-online.net [151.189.8.28]) by mail-in-08.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8736927ACD5; Wed, 09 May 2007 15:51:36 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mail-in-03.arcor-online.net (mail-in-03.arcor-online.net [151.189.21.43]) by mail-in-01-z2.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E119348554; Wed, 09 May 2007 15:51:36 +0200 (CEST) Received: from jupiterb48.nrubsig.org (dslb-084-058-249-186.pools.arcor-ip.net [84.58.249.186]) by mail-in-03.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39985342652; Wed, 09 May 2007 15:51:36 +0200 (CEST) Received: from nrubsig.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by jupiterb48.nrubsig.org (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l49DpXh0002777; Wed, 09 May 2007 15:51:34 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 15:51:33 +0200 From: Roland Mainz Subject: Re: [shell-discuss] Re: PSARC FastTrack[PSARC/2007/233]:Defaultshellenvironment:machine ksh93/back environment Sender: gisburn@jupiterb48.nrubsig.org To: James Carlson Cc: Shells discussion , PSARC-EXT@sun.com, Charles DeBardeleben , David.Comay@sun.com Message-id: <4641D1E5.8407AFD2@nrubsig.org> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.11 sun4u) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <462F7AEA.7060609@Sun.COM> <4638C074.CD692B71@nrubsig.org> <4638FBBC.2050007@sun.com> <463BF9AD.7B797D50@nrubsig.org> <200705050932.l459W1jn008092@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> <463c5279.nvAo/H6FzWkEfTNH%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <463F6800.1000705@sun.com> <4641A879.8A76559A@nrubsig.org> <200705091113.l49BD0Qv064672@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> <4641BC71.FBD54D0C@nrubsig.org> <17985.50018.212537.51647@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Status: RO Content-Length: 2587 James Carlson wrote: > Roland Mainz writes: > > Casper.Dik@Sun.COM wrote: > > > So we're going down that path some; I'm not sure we should go down > > > that path even further, especially when there are reasonable alternatives. > > > > I strongly think that putting any new defaults into /etc/skel/ files is > > the wrong solution. I am still suffering from the mistakes done by my > > predecessor six years ago and other sites are in a similar situation. > > I think it's possible to achieve a balance here. > > If the /etc/skel/.profile were to source a file elsewhere in /etc > (such as /etc/default), then almost all of the constraints would be > satisfied: No, please not something which is /etc/skel/-based. It would generate even more trouble for the admins by having accounts which can avoid or bypass mandatory site-defaults (for example if mandatory site-defaults make variables read-only (think about restricted or profile shells)). > - Existing users would not see any change as a result of this > project. Which is _bad_ as described in the PSARC 2006/587-case. We need a way to deploy mandatory site-defaults. > - Newly-created users would see the default environment. > > - The default environment would be centrally-located and could be > updated in the future without having to visit each user's local > home directory. This is already going to be covered by the /etc/env.d/ stuff (one of my earlier emails had an example). > You could even make that two separate files -- one for defaults > delivered by the OS distribution, and another for defaults set by the > local administrator. (One type 'f' in packaging, the other > intentionally not delivered at all.) > > The one constraint not satisified is for the admin who has thousands > of existing "dumb" users -- those users who have their own .profile, > but who are unable to modify it. It seems to me that though this is > an important concern, it's still a one-time issue, and I'd be > surprised if reasonable administrators hadn't already taken an > approach like the above for just this sort of reason. It isn't an one-time issue - it is a "forever"-issue. I strongly think that (Open-)Solaris should completely _stop_ delivering _any_ shell script content (except comments that admins should edit the /etc/*-counterparts of these files) in the /etc/skel/-files. They only cause lots of trouble. ---- Bye, Roland -- __ . . __ (o.\ \/ /.o) roland.mainz@nrubsig.org \__\/\/__/ MPEG specialist, C&&JAVA&&Sun&&Unix programmer /O /==\ O\ TEL +49 641 7950090 (;O/ \/ \O;) From roland.mainz@nrubsig.org Wed May 9 07:02:08 2007 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l49E28bt008856 for ; Wed, 9 May 2007 07:02:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l49E0tJk020098; Wed, 9 May 2007 07:01:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JHS00F211LPAG00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 09 May 2007 08:01:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sca-ea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.43.25]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JHS00K6Q1L7VPD0@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 09 May 2007 08:00:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay2.sun.com (relay2.sun.com [150.143.103.24] (may be forged)) by sca-ea-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l49D2VCI026442; Wed, 09 May 2007 14:00:43 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mms05es.sun.com ([150.143.104.94] [150.143.104.94]) by relay2.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-87277; Wed, 09 May 2007 14:00:24 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay1.sun.com (relay1.sun.com [150.143.103.14]) by mms05es.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-1949121; Wed, 09 May 2007 14:00:23 +0000 (Z) Received: from mail-in-01.arcor-online.net ([151.189.21.41] [151.189.21.41]) by relay1.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-595636; Wed, 09 May 2007 14:00:23 +0000 (Z) Received: from mail-in-01-z2.arcor-online.net (mail-in-11-z2.arcor-online.net [151.189.8.28]) by mail-in-01.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B7591634FB; Wed, 09 May 2007 16:00:22 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mail-in-07.arcor-online.net (mail-in-07.arcor-online.net [151.189.21.47]) by mail-in-01-z2.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 815E53485F5; Wed, 09 May 2007 16:00:22 +0200 (CEST) Received: from jupiterb48.nrubsig.org (dslb-084-058-249-186.pools.arcor-ip.net [84.58.249.186]) by mail-in-07.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 540DA292B71; Wed, 09 May 2007 16:00:22 +0200 (CEST) Received: from nrubsig.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by jupiterb48.nrubsig.org (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l49E0JFW002782; Wed, 09 May 2007 16:00:20 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 16:00:19 +0200 From: Roland Mainz Subject: Re: PSARC FastTrack [PSARC/2007/233]: Default shellenvironment:machine ksh93/back environment Sender: gisburn@jupiterb48.nrubsig.org To: Nicolas Williams Cc: Casper.Dik@sun.com, shell-discuss@opensolaris.org, Charles Debardeleben , PSARC-EXT@sun.com Message-id: <4641D3F3.71E56111@nrubsig.org> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.11 sun4u) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <4638C074.CD692B71@nrubsig.org> <4638FBBC.2050007@sun.com> <463BF9AD.7B797D50@nrubsig.org> <200705050932.l459W1jn008092@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> <4641A3E2.77B27D2C@nrubsig.org> <200705091105.l49B5smL059626@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> <4641B94E.E64BA4B1@nrubsig.org> <20070509133022.GK10560@Sun.COM> <4641CFB6.8D0FDE04@nrubsig.org> <20070509134530.GM10560@Sun.COM> Status: RO Content-Length: 2726 Nicolas Williams wrote: > On Wed, May 09, 2007 at 03:42:14PM +0200, Roland Mainz wrote: > > Nicolas Williams wrote: > > > Sysadmins can't be expected to, and shouldn't have to edit the local > > > machine files after every update/patch release. This is crucial. > > > > > > Look at other options. We've offered some. > > > > Both options included putting more stuff into /etc/skel/. In that case > > it may be better to revoke this case (PSARC 2007/233) instead of causing > > even _more_ /etc/skel/-related nightmares for the admins. > > OR modify the relevant programs' defaults in the programs themselves. This will not work. Remeber PSARC 2006/587: The POSIX shell standard _requires_ that the shell binary itself does not enable any flags by default - which includes any default editor setting. For full POSIX-conformance the only option is to use an external configuration script - which is in the case of Solaris (as defined in PSARC 2006/587), Linux etc. "/etc/ksh.kshrc". And bash has a similar file called "/etc/bash.bashrc". > > > > Erm, /etc/bash.bashrc and /etc/bash.bash_logout are _new_ files, only > > > > /etc/ksh.kshrc will be changed to set PS1 if not set yet. > > > > > > You get to do this once, then after that you either replace customer > > > content or you don't install new content. On Update. On patch. That's > > > just not nice. > > > > Not on patch. Both "update" and "reinstall" is Ok since the admins are > > in charge of the machines and have to read the documentation and emails. > > Update == patch. > > > And from my experience the "updates" cause so much damange to > > installations that this little ToDo-item for the admins won't hurt. > > This case won't help. This case can't be predicated on Sun abandoning > updates. I didn't propose to abandon the updates. I am just saying that most updates and/or patches require manual cleanup work. That was always the case and will likely continue forever. > > Updates are never working out of the box and manual adminstments are > > always required. > > We want updates to work, so please don't make things worse. The current /etc/skel/-based solution are a real-life nightmare. I doubt we can make it more worse... ;-/ > > > > 3rd option: Rename old, put new one in it's location and send the admin > > > > an email. > > > > > > Absolutely not. Not on patch. Not on update. Send e-mail?! That > > > won't fix the problem. > > > > Both "update" and "reinstall" would IMHO be acceptable. > > Disagree. And I disagree with that option. ---- Bye, Roland -- __ . . __ (o.\ \/ /.o) roland.mainz@nrubsig.org \__\/\/__/ MPEG specialist, C&&JAVA&&Sun&&Unix programmer /O /==\ O\ TEL +49 641 7950090 (;O/ \/ \O;) From roland.mainz@nrubsig.org Wed May 9 07:07:08 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l49E77vh009072 for ; Wed, 9 May 2007 07:07:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l49E5oEk005494; Wed, 9 May 2007 22:06:00 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JHS00M0P1TXIL00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 09 May 2007 07:05:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.98.43]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JHS00HKH1TWUZ90@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 09 May 2007 07:05:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay1.sun.com (relay1.sun.com [150.143.103.14] (may be forged)) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l49DVlVF019798; Wed, 09 May 2007 14:05:56 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mms05es.sun.com ([150.143.104.94] [150.143.104.94]) by relay1.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-85145; Wed, 09 May 2007 14:05:31 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay2.sun.com (relay2.sun.com [150.143.103.24]) by mms05es.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-1953022; Wed, 09 May 2007 14:05:31 +0000 (Z) Received: from mail-in-09.arcor-online.net ([151.189.21.49] [151.189.21.49]) by relay2.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-583006; Wed, 09 May 2007 14:05:30 +0000 (Z) Received: from mail-in-01-z2.arcor-online.net (mail-in-09-z2.arcor-online.net [151.189.8.21]) by mail-in-09.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32A1F17B451; Wed, 09 May 2007 16:05:30 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mail-in-11.arcor-online.net (mail-in-11.arcor-online.net [151.189.21.51]) by mail-in-01-z2.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E72628EEFC; Wed, 09 May 2007 16:05:30 +0200 (CEST) Received: from jupiterb48.nrubsig.org (dslb-084-058-249-186.pools.arcor-ip.net [84.58.249.186]) by mail-in-11.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B700F2C1604; Wed, 09 May 2007 16:05:29 +0200 (CEST) Received: from nrubsig.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by jupiterb48.nrubsig.org (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l49E5RSJ002787; Wed, 09 May 2007 16:05:28 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 16:05:27 +0200 From: Roland Mainz Subject: Re: [shell-discuss] Re: PSARC FastTrack [PSARC/2007/233]: Defaultshellenvironment:machine ksh93/back environment Sender: gisburn@jupiterb48.nrubsig.org To: Shells discussion Cc: PSARC-EXT@sun.com, Charles Debardeleben , Nicolas Williams Message-id: <4641D527.2A91C5F6@nrubsig.org> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.11 sun4u) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <462F7AEA.7060609@Sun.COM> <4638C074.CD692B71@nrubsig.org> <4638FBBC.2050007@sun.com> <463BF9AD.7B797D50@nrubsig.org> <200705050932.l459W1jn008092@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> <4641A3E2.77B27D2C@nrubsig.org> <200705091105.l49B5smL059626@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> <4641B94E.E64BA4B1@nrubsig.org> <20070509133022.GK10560@Sun.COM> <4641CFB6.8D0FDE04@nrubsig.org> <200705091349.l49DnHrU003622@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> Status: RO Content-Length: 1492 Casper.Dik@Sun.COM wrote: > >Both options included putting more stuff into /etc/skel/. In that case > >it may be better to revoke this case (PSARC 2007/233) instead of causing > >even _more_ /etc/skel/-related nightmares for the admins. > > What /etc/skel related nightmare? The nightmare that these files have content which we (=admins) are no longer able to touch or change without asking the users for permission. Doing it without permission may have legal consequences, therefore we're stuck with the content once the user started using the account actively. > >Not on patch. Both "update" and "reinstall" is Ok since the admins are > >in charge of the machines and have to read the documentation and emails. > >And from my experience the "updates" cause so much damange to > >installations that this little ToDo-item for the admins won't hurt. > >Updates are never working out of the box and manual adminstments are > >always required. > > As someone who upgrades a dozen systems every two weeks, I strongly > disagree with that notion. > > Upgrade needs to be as painless as possible, knowingly overwriting > customizations is, IMO, a NO-NO. This isn't "overwriting" them. I proposed "renameold" which means the old file gets preserved and the admin gets a notification to do a merge on demand. ---- Bye, Roland -- __ . . __ (o.\ \/ /.o) roland.mainz@nrubsig.org \__\/\/__/ MPEG specialist, C&&JAVA&&Sun&&Unix programmer /O /==\ O\ TEL +49 641 7950090 (;O/ \/ \O;) From casper@holland.sun.com Wed May 9 07:10:39 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l49EAc4H009174 for ; Wed, 9 May 2007 07:10:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l49E9Txh019357; Wed, 9 May 2007 15:09:32 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JHS0081D1ZTEN00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 09 May 2007 07:09:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com ([129.159.237.36]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JHS006MP1ZQ3Q50@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 09 May 2007 07:09:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from holland (room101 [129.159.248.23]) by sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7) with ESMTP id l49E9Prm017642; Wed, 09 May 2007 16:09:25 +0200 (MEST) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 16:09:21 +0200 From: Casper.Dik@sun.com Subject: Re: [shell-discuss] Re: PSARC FastTrack[PSARC/2007/233]:Defaultshellenvironment:machine ksh93/back environment In-reply-to: <4641D1E5.8407AFD2@nrubsig.org> Sender: casper@holland.sun.com To: Shells discussion Cc: James Carlson , PSARC-EXT@sun.com, Charles DeBardeleben , David.Comay@sun.com Message-id: <200705091409.l49E9Prm017642@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <462F7AEA.7060609@Sun.COM> <4638C074.CD692B71@nrubsig.org> <4638FBBC.2050007@sun.com> <463BF9AD.7B797D50@nrubsig.org> <200705050932.l459W1jn008092@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> <463c5279.nvAo/H6FzWkEfTNH%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <463F6800.1000705@sun.com> <4641A879.8A76559A@nrubsig.org> <200705091113.l49BD0Qv064672@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> <4641BC71.FBD54D0C@nrubsig.org> <17985.50018.212537.51647@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4641D1E5.8407AFD2@nrubsig.org> Status: RO Content-Length: 2817 >No, please not something which is /etc/skel/-based. It would generate >even more trouble for the admins by having accounts which can avoid or >bypass mandatory site-defaults (for example if mandatory site-defaults >make variables read-only (think about restricted or profile shells)). You're changing the requirements all the time; first we have "site defaults" and now we have "mandatory site defaults". Our argument against changing the /etc/* files is simply this: WE MUST NOT CHANGE THE BEHAVIORU FOR EXISTING USERS WILLY NILLY IF WE CAN AVOID IT. We were *not* talking about mandatory site defaults. We are NOT interested in mandatory site defaults. If you want mandatory site defaults, then by all means edit /etc/*, it's what they're there for. But I don't see why any *distro* should parttake in *site* defaults other than providing a mechanism with which to deliver them. >> - Existing users would not see any change as a result of this >> project. > >Which is _bad_ as described in the PSARC 2006/587-case. We need a way to >deploy mandatory site-defaults. Completely irrelevant case. There is no shipping ksh93, therefor there is no change in behaviour. I'm an existing user, I don't WANT changes to any environment variable, specifically if this runs the risk of requiring me to change my .files to include code which needs to cater with old and with new defaults. >> - Newly-created users would see the default environment. >> >> - The default environment would be centrally-located and could be >> updated in the future without having to visit each user's local >> home directory. > >This is already going to be covered by the /etc/env.d/ stuff (one of my >earlier emails had an example). And why should those not be distributed through /etc/skel? If you want mandatory site defaults, then you can add them and we will need to make sure that such a mechanism survives upgrades and updates. >It isn't an one-time issue - it is a "forever"-issue. I strongly think >that (Open-)Solaris should completely _stop_ delivering _any_ shell >script content (except comments that admins should edit the >/etc/*-counterparts of these files) in the /etc/skel/-files. They only >cause lots of trouble. Well, I think we should not deliver any content in /etc/* scripts, or at least as little as we can get away with. The /etc/skel files are a fine mechanism to populate initial user acounts, but they should be used to point to system wide defaults which can be updated by the administrator, typically using something like: if [ -f /etc/site/profile ] then . /etc/site/profile else . /etc/dflt/profile fi Mandatory defaults in /etc/profile should be restricted, at least in the systems as shipping. I certainly would not want to annoy the "power-user" base. Casper From casper@holland.sun.com Wed May 9 07:14:39 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l49EEcaU009404 for ; Wed, 9 May 2007 07:14:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l49EDUge020737; Wed, 9 May 2007 15:13:31 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JHS00M0726ISL00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 09 May 2007 07:13:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com ([129.159.237.36]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JHS00HVS26HV890@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 09 May 2007 07:13:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from holland (room101 [129.159.248.23]) by sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7) with ESMTP id l49EDSXt019685; Wed, 09 May 2007 16:13:28 +0200 (MEST) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 16:13:23 +0200 From: Casper.Dik@sun.com Subject: Re: [shell-discuss] Re: PSARC FastTrack [PSARC/2007/233]: Defaultshellenvironment:machine ksh93/back environment In-reply-to: <4641D527.2A91C5F6@nrubsig.org> Sender: casper@holland.sun.com To: Shells discussion Cc: PSARC-EXT@sun.com, Nicolas Williams , Charles Debardeleben Message-id: <200705091413.l49EDSXt019685@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <462F7AEA.7060609@Sun.COM> <4638C074.CD692B71@nrubsig.org> <4638FBBC.2050007@sun.com> <463BF9AD.7B797D50@nrubsig.org> <200705050932.l459W1jn008092@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> <4641A3E2.77B27D2C@nrubsig.org> <200705091105.l49B5smL059626@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> <4641B94E.E64BA4B1@nrubsig.org> <20070509133022.GK10560@Sun.COM> <4641CFB6.8D0FDE04@nrubsig.org> <200705091349.l49DnHrU003622@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> <4641D527.2A91C5F6@nrubsig.org> Status: RO Content-Length: 1154 >Casper.Dik@Sun.COM wrote: >> >Both options included putting more stuff into /etc/skel/. In that case >> >it may be better to revoke this case (PSARC 2007/233) instead of causing >> >even _more_ /etc/skel/-related nightmares for the admins. >> >> What /etc/skel related nightmare? > >The nightmare that these files have content which we (=admins) are no >longer able to touch or change without asking the users for permission. >Doing it without permission may have legal consequences, therefore we're >stuck with the content once the user started using the account actively. You could, of course, have drawn up a different user agreement to allow that. But the redirection step just works. Of course, if you want mandatory . file content then /etc/* is the only possibility; but I see no reason to ship any more content in those files. If you want to edit them, you know where to find vi. >This isn't "overwriting" them. I proposed "renameold" which means the >old file gets preserved and the admin gets a notification to do a merge >on demand. Which is really annoying behaviour indistinguishable in practice from overwriting the file. Casper From roland.mainz@nrubsig.org Wed May 9 07:20:35 2007 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l49EKZq7009707 for ; Wed, 9 May 2007 07:20:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l49EJVcL029849; Wed, 9 May 2007 07:19:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JHS00H0D2GJ8X00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 09 May 2007 08:19:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.98.31]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JHS00K3R2GJVPF0@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 09 May 2007 08:19:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay24.sun.com (ip192-12-251-74.block6.us.syntegra.com [192.12.251.74]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l49EJViq028603; Wed, 09 May 2007 14:19:31 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mms25es.sun.com ([150.143.232.94] [150.143.232.94]) by relay24.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-681400; Wed, 09 May 2007 14:19:31 +0000 (Z) Received: from mms25bas.mms.us.syntegra.com (ip192-12-251-90.block6.us.syntegra.com [192.12.251.90]) by mms25es.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-2118314; Wed, 09 May 2007 14:19:30 +0000 (Z) Received: from mail-in-08.arcor-online.net ([151.189.21.48] [151.189.21.48]) by relay21.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-6269699; Wed, 09 May 2007 14:19:30 +0000 (Z) Received: from mail-in-03-z2.arcor-online.net (mail-in-03-z2.arcor-online.net [151.189.8.15]) by mail-in-08.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6319226B0B; Wed, 09 May 2007 16:19:29 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mail-in-10.arcor-online.net (mail-in-10.arcor-online.net [151.189.21.50]) by mail-in-03-z2.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D09E42D3DC8; Wed, 09 May 2007 16:19:28 +0200 (CEST) Received: from jupiterb48.nrubsig.org (dslb-084-058-249-186.pools.arcor-ip.net [84.58.249.186]) by mail-in-10.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 833ED24D7E4; Wed, 09 May 2007 16:19:28 +0200 (CEST) Received: from nrubsig.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by jupiterb48.nrubsig.org (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l49EJQR2002794; Wed, 09 May 2007 16:19:26 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 16:19:26 +0200 From: Roland Mainz Subject: Re: [shell-discuss] Re: PSARC FastTrack [PSARC/2007/233]: Default shellenvironment:machine ksh93/back environment Sender: gisburn@jupiterb48.nrubsig.org To: Nicolas Williams Cc: Brian Gupta , PSARC-EXT@Sun.COM, Shawn Walker , Charles Debardeleben , Shells discussion Message-id: <4641D86E.F8771644@nrubsig.org> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.11 sun4u) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <462F7AEA.7060609@Sun.COM> <4638C074.CD692B71@nrubsig.org> <4638FBBC.2050007@sun.com> <463BF9AD.7B797D50@nrubsig.org> <200705050932.l459W1jn008092@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> <4641A9B2.52FBFD46@nrubsig.org> <20070509131542.GG10560@Sun.COM> <5b5090780705090625i7a5d50e8j2725535aa8cdd45@mail.gmail.com> <20070509133830.GL10560@Sun.COM> Status: RO Content-Length: 1436 Nicolas Williams wrote: > On Wed, May 09, 2007 at 09:25:14AM -0400, Brian Gupta wrote: > > Here's a crazy thought. Might you add an installation option, "Default > > shell configuration" > > > > a) (Default) Expert - This setting offers the most compatibility with > > older systems > > 2) Novice - This setting configures the default shell environment with > > defaults that make new user's lives easier. > > > > The text needs to be tweaked, but you get the idea. > > More install-time options? Please no... > Why can't we just fix the defaults in the programs themselves? See PSARC 2006/587: The POSIX shell standard _requires_ that the shell binary itself does not enable any flags by default - which includes any default editor setting. For full POSIX-conformance the only option is to use an external configuration script - which is in the case of Solaris (as defined in PSARC 2006/587), SuSE Linux etc. "/etc/ksh.kshrc". And bash3 has a similar file called "/etc/bash.bashrc". > That > adds no new knobs, and it has very good update semantics. Right now I am starting to wonder why there is a difference between defaults settings builtin into the binary and the defaults in the /etc/(bash.bashrc|ksh.kshrc) files from the ARC viewpoint. ---- Bye, Roland -- __ . . __ (o.\ \/ /.o) roland.mainz@nrubsig.org \__\/\/__/ MPEG specialist, C&&JAVA&&Sun&&Unix programmer /O /==\ O\ TEL +49 641 7950090 (;O/ \/ \O;) From carlsonj@phorcys.east.sun.com Wed May 9 07:22:58 2007 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l49EMwQX009811 for ; Wed, 9 May 2007 07:22:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l49ELo25000540; Wed, 9 May 2007 07:21:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JHS0093V2KIEH00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 09 May 2007 07:21:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com ([129.148.174.143]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JHS006D02KG3J60@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 09 May 2007 07:21:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l49ELq9S015516; Wed, 09 May 2007 10:21:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from carlsonj@localhost) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1/Submit) id l49ELqme015513; Wed, 09 May 2007 10:21:52 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 10:21:52 -0400 From: James Carlson Subject: Re: [shell-discuss] Re: PSARC FastTrack[PSARC/2007/233]:Defaultshellenvironment:machine ksh93/back environment In-reply-to: <200705091409.l49E9Prm017642@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> To: Shells discussion Cc: PSARC-EXT@sun.com, Charles DeBardeleben , David.Comay@sun.com Message-id: <17985.55552.280663.539712@gargle.gargle.HOWL> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: VM 7.01 under Emacs 21.3.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <462F7AEA.7060609@Sun.COM> <4638C074.CD692B71@nrubsig.org> <4638FBBC.2050007@sun.com> <463BF9AD.7B797D50@nrubsig.org> <200705050932.l459W1jn008092@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> <463c5279.nvAo/H6FzWkEfTNH%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <463F6800.1000705@sun.com> <4641A879.8A76559A@nrubsig.org> <200705091113.l49BD0Qv064672@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> <4641BC71.FBD54D0C@nrubsig.org> <17985.50018.212537.51647@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4641D1E5.8407AFD2@nrubsig.org> <200705091409.l49E9Prm017642@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> Status: RO Content-Length: 1192 Casper.Dik@Sun.COM writes: > > >No, please not something which is /etc/skel/-based. It would generate > >even more trouble for the admins by having accounts which can avoid or > >bypass mandatory site-defaults (for example if mandatory site-defaults > >make variables read-only (think about restricted or profile shells)). > > You're changing the requirements all the time; first we have "site > defaults" and now we have "mandatory site defaults". > > Our argument against changing the /etc/* files is simply this: > > WE MUST NOT CHANGE THE BEHAVIORU FOR EXISTING USERS WILLY NILLY > IF WE CAN AVOID IT. > > We were *not* talking about mandatory site defaults. It's not even clear that such a thing is really possible. I think it's about time to derail this case. The original proposal clearly wasn't "obvious" enough to be a fast-track, and the discussion that has followed is simply not converging. If anything, the requirements are actually diverging. -- James Carlson, Solaris Networking Sun Microsystems / 1 Network Drive 71.232W Vox +1 781 442 2084 MS UBUR02-212 / Burlington MA 01803-2757 42.496N Fax +1 781 442 1677 From Darren.Moffat@sun.com Wed May 9 07:28:46 2007 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l49ESkJH010225 for ; Wed, 9 May 2007 07:28:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l49ERf91026833 for <@newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com:PSARC-EXT@sun.com>; Wed, 9 May 2007 07:27:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JHS00H912U4UM00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@Sun.COM); Wed, 09 May 2007 08:27:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com ([129.156.42.6]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JHS00H082TZZB00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@Sun.COM); Wed, 09 May 2007 08:27:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from d1-emea-09.sun.com ([192.18.2.119]) by gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l49ERZg7000559 for ; Wed, 09 May 2007 14:27:35 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-emea-09.sun.com by d1-emea-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JHS00G012PJ0C00@d1-emea-09.sun.com> (original mail from Darren.Moffat@Sun.COM) for PSARC-EXT@Sun.COM (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@Sun.COM); Wed, 09 May 2007 15:27:35 +0100 (BST) Received: from [129.150.120.43] by d1-emea-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JHS00ABF2TV7T30@d1-emea-09.sun.com> for PSARC-EXT@Sun.COM (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@Sun.COM); Wed, 09 May 2007 15:27:34 +0100 (BST) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 15:27:31 +0100 From: Darren J Moffat Subject: Re: [shell-discuss] Re: PSARC FastTrack [PSARC/2007/233]: Default shellenvironment:machine ksh93/back environment In-reply-to: <4641D86E.F8771644@nrubsig.org> Sender: Darren.Moffat@sun.com To: Roland Mainz Cc: Nicolas Williams , PSARC-EXT@sun.com, Shells discussion , Charles Debardeleben , Shawn Walker Message-id: <4641DA53.7090005@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <462F7AEA.7060609@Sun.COM> <4638C074.CD692B71@nrubsig.org> <4638FBBC.2050007@sun.com> <463BF9AD.7B797D50@nrubsig.org> <200705050932.l459W1jn008092@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> <4641A9B2.52FBFD46@nrubsig.org> <20070509131542.GG10560@Sun.COM> <5b5090780705090625i7a5d50e8j2725535aa8cdd45@mail.gmail.com> <20070509133830.GL10560@Sun.COM> <4641D86E.F8771644@nrubsig.org> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0b2 (X11/20070227) Status: RO Content-Length: 1125 Roland Mainz wrote: > See PSARC 2006/587: The POSIX shell standard _requires_ that the shell > binary itself does not enable any flags by default - which includes any > default editor setting. For full > POSIX-conformance the only option is to use an external configuration > script - which is in the case of Solaris (as defined in PSARC 2006/587), > SuSE Linux etc. "/etc/ksh.kshrc". And bash3 has a similar file called > "/etc/bash.bashrc". > >> That >> adds no new knobs, and it has very good update semantics. > > Right now I am starting to wonder why there is a difference between > defaults settings builtin into the binary and the defaults in the > /etc/(bash.bashrc|ksh.kshrc) files from the ARC viewpoint. I see the difference based around the fact that /etc/(bash.bashrc|ksh.kshrc) is very likely to be installed as an editable file which means consideration to how it is dealt with on upgrade needs to occur. I suspect you would get even more resistance you were suggesting changing the actual binaries to implement these changes since this would be a fork from the upstream version. -- Darren J Moffat From carlsonj@phorcys.east.sun.com Wed May 9 07:36:12 2007 Received: from newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (newsunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.245]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l49EaCnI010425 for ; Wed, 9 May 2007 07:36:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l49EZ83l021743; Wed, 9 May 2007 08:35:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JHS00A2D36KJF00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 09 May 2007 07:35:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com ([129.148.174.143]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JHS006VO36H3L60@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 09 May 2007 07:35:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l49EZ54L015656; Wed, 09 May 2007 10:35:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from carlsonj@localhost) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1/Submit) id l49EZ5JB015653; Wed, 09 May 2007 10:35:05 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 10:35:04 -0400 From: James Carlson Subject: Re: [shell-discuss] Re: PSARC FastTrack[PSARC/2007/233]:Defaultshellenvironment:machine ksh93/back environment In-reply-to: <4641D1E5.8407AFD2@nrubsig.org> To: Roland Mainz Cc: Shells discussion , PSARC-EXT@sun.com, Charles DeBardeleben , David.Comay@sun.com Message-id: <17985.56344.958020.868738@gargle.gargle.HOWL> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: VM 7.01 under Emacs 21.3.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <462F7AEA.7060609@Sun.COM> <4638C074.CD692B71@nrubsig.org> <4638FBBC.2050007@sun.com> <463BF9AD.7B797D50@nrubsig.org> <200705050932.l459W1jn008092@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> <463c5279.nvAo/H6FzWkEfTNH%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <463F6800.1000705@sun.com> <4641A879.8A76559A@nrubsig.org> <200705091113.l49BD0Qv064672@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> <4641BC71.FBD54D0C@nrubsig.org> <17985.50018.212537.51647@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4641D1E5.8407AFD2@nrubsig.org> Status: RO Content-Length: 2533 Roland Mainz writes: > > If the /etc/skel/.profile were to source a file elsewhere in /etc > > (such as /etc/default), then almost all of the constraints would be > > satisfied: > > No, please not something which is /etc/skel/-based. It would generate > even more trouble for the admins by having accounts which can avoid or > bypass mandatory site-defaults (for example if mandatory site-defaults > make variables read-only (think about restricted or profile shells)). They can already do that with the existing mechanisms, such as /etc/profile, and do it on their own. Why do we need to support such a hypothetical scenario? You original plea was that we all have a heart and consider the poor, lonesome new Solaris user. A /etc/skel/-based solution does exactly that. > > - Existing users would not see any change as a result of this > > project. > > Which is _bad_ as described in the PSARC 2006/587-case. We need a way to > deploy mandatory site-defaults. 2006/587 was about a new default for the new-to-be-added ksh93 itself. I see this as different because it's a default for _everything_. But you're right that we could just overturn 2006/587 while we're at it. > > - The default environment would be centrally-located and could be > > updated in the future without having to visit each user's local > > home directory. > > This is already going to be covered by the /etc/env.d/ stuff (one of my > earlier emails had an example). Isn't that sufficient for new users? > > The one constraint not satisified is for the admin who has thousands > > of existing "dumb" users -- those users who have their own .profile, > > but who are unable to modify it. It seems to me that though this is > > an important concern, it's still a one-time issue, and I'd be > > surprised if reasonable administrators hadn't already taken an > > approach like the above for just this sort of reason. > > It isn't an one-time issue - it is a "forever"-issue. I strongly think > that (Open-)Solaris should completely _stop_ delivering _any_ shell > script content (except comments that admins should edit the > /etc/*-counterparts of these files) in the /etc/skel/-files. They only > cause lots of trouble. Even entries that just source common files? I don't get the concern. Please elaborate. -- James Carlson, Solaris Networking Sun Microsystems / 1 Network Drive 71.232W Vox +1 781 442 2084 MS UBUR02-212 / Burlington MA 01803-2757 42.496N Fax +1 781 442 1677 From roland.mainz@nrubsig.org Wed May 9 07:45:46 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l49EjjDj010894 for ; Wed, 9 May 2007 07:45:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l49EiYKW001544; Wed, 9 May 2007 15:44:39 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JHS000093MES800@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 09 May 2007 07:44:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.98.43]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JHS00HDZ3MDUUA0@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 09 May 2007 07:44:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay1.sun.com (relay1.sun.com [150.143.103.14] (may be forged)) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l49EZBiW023639; Wed, 09 May 2007 14:44:36 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mms03es.sun.com ([150.143.104.54] [150.143.104.54]) by relay1.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-89558; Wed, 09 May 2007 14:44:02 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay4.sun.com (relay4.sun.com [150.143.103.74]) by mms03es.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-745169; Wed, 09 May 2007 14:44:02 +0000 (Z) Received: from mail-in-01.arcor-online.net ([151.189.21.41] [151.189.21.41]) by relay4.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-661570; Wed, 09 May 2007 14:44:01 +0000 (Z) Received: from mail-in-01-z2.arcor-online.net (mail-in-06-z2.arcor-online.net [151.189.8.18]) by mail-in-01.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A07015B5A7; Wed, 09 May 2007 16:44:01 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mail-in-07.arcor-online.net (mail-in-07.arcor-online.net [151.189.21.47]) by mail-in-01-z2.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D7185BD7A; Wed, 09 May 2007 16:44:01 +0200 (CEST) Received: from jupiterb48.nrubsig.org (dslb-084-058-249-186.pools.arcor-ip.net [84.58.249.186]) by mail-in-07.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D207C28ABA3; Wed, 09 May 2007 16:44:00 +0200 (CEST) Received: from nrubsig.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by jupiterb48.nrubsig.org (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l49EhvZR002807; Wed, 09 May 2007 16:43:58 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 16:43:57 +0200 From: Roland Mainz Subject: Overturning PSARC 2006/587 ? / was: Re: [shell-discuss] Re: PSARCFastTrack[PSARC/2007/233]:Defaultshellenvironment:machine ksh93/backenvironment Sender: gisburn@jupiterb48.nrubsig.org To: James Carlson Cc: Shells discussion , PSARC-EXT@sun.com, Charles DeBardeleben , David.Comay@sun.com Message-id: <4641DE2D.812C647B@nrubsig.org> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.11 sun4u) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en X-Priority: 2 (High) X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <462F7AEA.7060609@Sun.COM> <4638C074.CD692B71@nrubsig.org> <4638FBBC.2050007@sun.com> <463BF9AD.7B797D50@nrubsig.org> <200705050932.l459W1jn008092@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> <463c5279.nvAo/H6FzWkEfTNH%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <463F6800.1000705@sun.com> <4641A879.8A76559A@nrubsig.org> <200705091113.l49BD0Qv064672@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> <4641BC71.FBD54D0C@nrubsig.org> <17985.50018.212537.51647@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4641D1E5.8407AFD2@nrubsig.org> <17985.56344.958020.868738@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Status: RO Content-Length: 780 James Carlson wrote: > Roland Mainz writes: [snip] > 2006/587 was about a new default for the new-to-be-added ksh93 itself. > I see this as different because it's a default for _everything_. > > But you're right that we could just overturn 2006/587 while we're at > it. Erm... fully stop please. In that case I am going to _revoke_ this case. Much time and tears were invested in the usuablity work which was finally enabled by the settings defined PSARC 2006/587 (aiming at getting ksh93's usuablity in sync with bash3) and undoing that case would undo much of the usuabilty work done there. ---- Bye, Roland -- __ . . __ (o.\ \/ /.o) roland.mainz@nrubsig.org \__\/\/__/ MPEG specialist, C&&JAVA&&Sun&&Unix programmer /O /==\ O\ TEL +49 641 7950090 (;O/ \/ \O;) From schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de Wed May 9 07:48:10 2007 Received: from newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (newsunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.245]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l49Em9pD011001 for ; Wed, 9 May 2007 07:48:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l49El1Ou024490; Wed, 9 May 2007 08:47:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JHS00J0T3QFVR00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 09 May 2007 08:47:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sca-ea-mail-3.sun.com ([192.18.43.21]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JHS00HRN3QFYZ10@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 09 May 2007 08:47:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay21.sun.com (relay21.sun.com [192.12.251.14] (may be forged)) by sca-ea-mail-3.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l49El27L011131; Wed, 09 May 2007 14:47:03 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mms25es.sun.com ([150.143.232.94] [150.143.232.94]) by relay21.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-2223165; Wed, 09 May 2007 14:47:02 +0000 (Z) Received: from mms23bas.mms.us.syntegra.com (relay23.mms.us.syntegra.com [192.12.251.50]) by mms25es.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-2131361; Wed, 09 May 2007 14:47:02 +0000 (Z) Received: from mailhub.fokus.fraunhofer.de ([193.174.154.14] [193.174.154.14]) by relay23.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-497553; Wed, 09 May 2007 14:47:02 +0000 (Z) Received: from burner.fokus.fraunhofer.de (burner [10.147.65.166]) by mailhub.fokus.fraunhofer.de (8.11.6p2/8.11.6) with ESMTP id l49Ekwf00658; Wed, 09 May 2007 16:46:58 +0200 (MEST) Received: (from jes@localhost) by burner.fokus.fraunhofer.de (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/Submit) id l49EkLEe016291; Wed, 09 May 2007 16:46:21 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 16:46:21 +0200 From: Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (Joerg Schilling) Subject: Re: [shell-discuss] Re: PSARC FastTrack [PSARC/2007/233]: Default shellenvironment:machine ksh93/back environment In-reply-to: <4641D86E.F8771644@nrubsig.org> Sender: schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de To: shell-discuss@opensolaris.org, Nicolas.Williams@sun.com Cc: shell-discuss@opensolaris.org, PSARC-EXT@sun.com, Charles.Debardeleben@sun.com, brian.gupta@gmail.com Message-id: <4641debd.ZI4nxycWHgQS1vha%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <462F7AEA.7060609@Sun.COM> <4638C074.CD692B71@nrubsig.org> <4638FBBC.2050007@sun.com> <463BF9AD.7B797D50@nrubsig.org> <200705050932.l459W1jn008092@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> <4641A9B2.52FBFD46@nrubsig.org> <20070509131542.GG10560@Sun.COM> <5b5090780705090625i7a5d50e8j2725535aa8cdd45@mail.gmail.com> <20070509133830.GL10560@Sun.COM> <4641D86E.F8771644@nrubsig.org> User-Agent: nail 11.22 3/20/05 Status: RO Content-Length: 742 Roland Mainz wrote: > > Why can't we just fix the defaults in the programs themselves? > > See PSARC 2006/587: The POSIX shell standard _requires_ that the shell > binary itself does not enable any flags by default - which includes any > default editor setting. For full Even if you edit /etc/profile to enable e.g. editing, you break POSIX on such a system. This is why convenience changes belong into /etc/skel Jörg -- EMail:joerg@schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin js@cs.tu-berlin.de (uni) schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily From carlsonj@phorcys.east.sun.com Wed May 9 07:50:52 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l49EopuI011130 for ; Wed, 9 May 2007 07:50:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l49EnYde020057; Wed, 9 May 2007 22:49:45 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JHS0000L3USZA00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 09 May 2007 07:49:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com ([129.148.174.143]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JHS00HCK3URV2B0@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 09 May 2007 07:49:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l49EnduF015774; Wed, 09 May 2007 10:49:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from carlsonj@localhost) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1/Submit) id l49Endkn015771; Wed, 09 May 2007 10:49:39 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 10:49:39 -0400 From: James Carlson Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/233 Defaultshellenvironment:machine ksh93/backenvironment In-reply-to: <4641DE2D.812C647B@nrubsig.org> To: Roland Mainz Cc: Shells discussion , PSARC-EXT@sun.com, Charles DeBardeleben , David.Comay@sun.com Message-id: <17985.57219.16087.578841@gargle.gargle.HOWL> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: VM 7.01 under Emacs 21.3.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <462F7AEA.7060609@Sun.COM> <4638C074.CD692B71@nrubsig.org> <4638FBBC.2050007@sun.com> <463BF9AD.7B797D50@nrubsig.org> <200705050932.l459W1jn008092@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> <463c5279.nvAo/H6FzWkEfTNH%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <463F6800.1000705@sun.com> <4641A879.8A76559A@nrubsig.org> <200705091113.l49BD0Qv064672@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> <4641BC71.FBD54D0C@nrubsig.org> <17985.50018.212537.51647@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4641D1E5.8407AFD2@nrubsig.org> <17985.56344.958020.868738@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4641DE2D.812C647B@nrubsig.org> Status: RO Content-Length: 1223 [repaired broken subject line] Roland Mainz writes: > James Carlson wrote: > > Roland Mainz writes: > [snip] > > 2006/587 was about a new default for the new-to-be-added ksh93 itself. > > I see this as different because it's a default for _everything_. > > > > But you're right that we could just overturn 2006/587 while we're at > > it. > > Erm... fully stop please. In that case I am going to _revoke_ this case. > Much time and tears were invested in the usuablity work which was > finally enabled by the settings defined PSARC 2006/587 (aiming at > getting ksh93's usuablity in sync with bash3) and undoing that case > would undo much of the usuabilty work done there. I didn't say that we _should_. I'm pointing out that there's a clear difference of scope between the two cases, and it was a key issue that allowed other members to go along with it. However, if you don't see that as a significant difference, then we clearly misunderstood your intent, and a wider discussion is needed. -- James Carlson, Solaris Networking Sun Microsystems / 1 Network Drive 71.232W Vox +1 781 442 2084 MS UBUR02-212 / Burlington MA 01803-2757 42.496N Fax +1 781 442 1677 From roland.mainz@nrubsig.org Wed May 9 07:52:18 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l49EqH1D011296 for ; Wed, 9 May 2007 07:52:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l49Ep1n6020648; Wed, 9 May 2007 22:51:08 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JHS00K093X7BI00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 09 May 2007 08:51:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sca-ea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.43.24]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JHS00HRX3X6YX10@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 09 May 2007 08:51:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay24.sun.com (ip192-12-251-74.block6.us.syntegra.com [192.12.251.74]) by sca-ea-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l49Ep6uv022344; Wed, 09 May 2007 14:51:06 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mms23es.sun.com ([150.143.232.54] [150.143.232.54]) by relay24.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-683737; Wed, 09 May 2007 14:51:06 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay22.sun.com (relay22.sun.com [192.12.251.34]) by mms23es.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-2374393; Wed, 09 May 2007 14:51:05 +0000 (Z) Received: from mail-in-03.arcor-online.net ([151.189.21.43] [151.189.21.43]) by relay22.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-499798; Wed, 09 May 2007 14:51:04 +0000 (Z) Received: from mail-in-01-z2.arcor-online.net (mail-in-07-z2.arcor-online.net [151.189.8.19]) by mail-in-03.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9ECD0276B9E; Wed, 09 May 2007 16:50:52 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mail-in-05.arcor-online.net (mail-in-05.arcor-online.net [151.189.21.45]) by mail-in-01-z2.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C9112C6DEB; Wed, 09 May 2007 16:50:52 +0200 (CEST) Received: from jupiterb48.nrubsig.org (dslb-084-058-249-186.pools.arcor-ip.net [84.58.249.186]) by mail-in-05.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 404342BAA34; Wed, 09 May 2007 16:50:51 +0200 (CEST) Received: from nrubsig.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by jupiterb48.nrubsig.org (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l49EonBh002812; Wed, 09 May 2007 16:50:50 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 16:50:49 +0200 From: Roland Mainz Subject: Re: [shell-discuss] Re: PSARC FastTrack [PSARC/2007/233]: Defaultshellenvironment:machine ksh93/back environment Sender: gisburn@jupiterb48.nrubsig.org To: Shells discussion , Don Cragun Cc: Nicolas.Williams@Sun.COM, PSARC-EXT@Sun.COM, Charles.Debardeleben@Sun.COM, brian.gupta@gmail.com Message-id: <4641DFC9.EAFE4C1E@nrubsig.org> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.11 sun4u) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <462F7AEA.7060609@Sun.COM> <4638C074.CD692B71@nrubsig.org> <4638FBBC.2050007@sun.com> <463BF9AD.7B797D50@nrubsig.org> <200705050932.l459W1jn008092@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> <4641A9B2.52FBFD46@nrubsig.org> <20070509131542.GG10560@Sun.COM> <5b5090780705090625i7a5d50e8j2725535aa8cdd45@mail.gmail.com> <20070509133830.GL10560@Sun.COM> <4641D86E.F8771644@nrubsig.org> <4641debd.ZI4nxycWHgQS1vha%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> Status: RO Content-Length: 957 Joerg Schilling wrote: > Roland Mainz wrote: > > > Why can't we just fix the defaults in the programs themselves? > > > > See PSARC 2006/587: The POSIX shell standard _requires_ that the shell > > binary itself does not enable any flags by default - which includes any > > default editor setting. For full > > Even if you edit /etc/profile to enable e.g. editing, you break POSIX on such > a system. This is why convenience changes belong into /etc/skel This is AFAIK not true. Please read the email traffic for PSARC 2006/587, AFAIK Don Cragun commented exactly on this issue. Setting a default editor mode in /etc/ksh.kshrc or /etc/profile is not a violation of the POSIX shell standard since these files are read _after_ the shell started. ---- Bye, Roland -- __ . . __ (o.\ \/ /.o) roland.mainz@nrubsig.org \__\/\/__/ MPEG specialist, C&&JAVA&&Sun&&Unix programmer /O /==\ O\ TEL +49 641 7950090 (;O/ \/ \O;) From schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de Wed May 9 08:05:34 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l49F5X0J012008 for ; Wed, 9 May 2007 08:05:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l49F4Gn5008533; Wed, 9 May 2007 16:04:25 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JHS0010L4JAQH00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 09 May 2007 08:04:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.98.31]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JHS00H824J9V5C0@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 09 May 2007 08:04:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay24.sun.com (ip192-12-251-74.block6.us.syntegra.com [192.12.251.74]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l49F4L7Q017732; Wed, 09 May 2007 15:04:21 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mms23es.sun.com ([150.143.232.54] [150.143.232.54]) by relay24.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-684674; Wed, 09 May 2007 15:04:21 +0000 (Z) Received: from mms23bas.mms.us.syntegra.com (relay23.mms.us.syntegra.com [192.12.251.50]) by mms23es.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-2381270; Wed, 09 May 2007 15:04:20 +0000 (Z) Received: from mailhub.fokus.fraunhofer.de ([193.174.154.14] [193.174.154.14]) by relay23.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-504600; Wed, 09 May 2007 15:04:20 +0000 (Z) Received: from burner.fokus.fraunhofer.de (burner [10.147.65.166]) by mailhub.fokus.fraunhofer.de (8.11.6p2/8.11.6) with ESMTP id l49F4Hf02468; Wed, 09 May 2007 17:04:17 +0200 (MEST) Received: (from jes@localhost) by burner.fokus.fraunhofer.de (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/Submit) id l49F3eQL016321; Wed, 09 May 2007 17:03:40 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 17:03:40 +0200 From: Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (Joerg Schilling) Subject: Re: [shell-discuss] Re: PSARC FastTrack [PSARC/2007/233]: Defaultshellenvironment:machine ksh93/back environment In-reply-to: <4641DFC9.EAFE4C1E@nrubsig.org> Sender: schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de To: shell-discuss@opensolaris.org, don.cragun@sun.com Cc: PSARC-EXT@sun.com, Nicolas.Williams@sun.com, Charles.Debardeleben@sun.com, brian.gupta@gmail.com Message-id: <4641e2cc.v4lFHtaYwL2nWl11%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <462F7AEA.7060609@Sun.COM> <4638C074.CD692B71@nrubsig.org> <4638FBBC.2050007@sun.com> <463BF9AD.7B797D50@nrubsig.org> <200705050932.l459W1jn008092@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> <4641A9B2.52FBFD46@nrubsig.org> <20070509131542.GG10560@Sun.COM> <5b5090780705090625i7a5d50e8j2725535aa8cdd45@mail.gmail.com> <20070509133830.GL10560@Sun.COM> <4641D86E.F8771644@nrubsig.org> <4641debd.ZI4nxycWHgQS1vha%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <4641DFC9.EAFE4C1E@nrubsig.org> User-Agent: nail 11.22 3/20/05 Status: RO Content-Length: 1270 Roland Mainz wrote: > Joerg Schilling wrote: > > Roland Mainz wrote: > > > > Why can't we just fix the defaults in the programs themselves? > > > > > > See PSARC 2006/587: The POSIX shell standard _requires_ that the shell > > > binary itself does not enable any flags by default - which includes any > > > default editor setting. For full > > > > Even if you edit /etc/profile to enable e.g. editing, you break POSIX on such > > a system. This is why convenience changes belong into /etc/skel > > This is AFAIK not true. Please read the email traffic for PSARC > 2006/587, AFAIK Don Cragun commented exactly on this issue. Setting a > default editor mode in /etc/ksh.kshrc or /etc/profile is not a violation > of the POSIX shell standard since these files are read _after_ the shell > started. If you edited /etc/profile, you cannot verify anymore whether the shell behaves correctly, so I will not believe this. Jörg -- EMail:joerg@schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin js@cs.tu-berlin.de (uni) schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily From Nicolas.Williams@sun.com Wed May 9 08:18:57 2007 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l49FIutQ012403 for ; Wed, 9 May 2007 08:18:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l49FHpbw009143; Wed, 9 May 2007 08:17:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JHS00M0D55SYR00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 09 May 2007 09:17:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from binky.central.sun.com ([129.153.128.104]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JHS00HMA55RYZ40@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 09 May 2007 09:17:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from binky.central.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by binky.central.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l49FGdNO012223; Wed, 09 May 2007 10:16:39 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from nw141292@localhost) by binky.central.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/Submit) id l49FGd24012222; Wed, 09 May 2007 10:16:39 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 10:16:39 -0500 From: Nicolas Williams Subject: Re: [shell-discuss] Re: PSARC FastTrack [PSARC/2007/233]:Defaultshellenvironment:machine ksh93/back environment In-reply-to: <17985.50018.212537.51647@gargle.gargle.HOWL> To: James Carlson Cc: Roland Mainz , PSARC-EXT@sun.com, Shells discussion , Charles DeBardeleben Message-id: <20070509151638.GR10560@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <4638C074.CD692B71@nrubsig.org> <4638FBBC.2050007@sun.com> <463BF9AD.7B797D50@nrubsig.org> <200705050932.l459W1jn008092@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> <463c5279.nvAo/H6FzWkEfTNH%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <463F6800.1000705@sun.com> <4641A879.8A76559A@nrubsig.org> <200705091113.l49BD0Qv064672@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> <4641BC71.FBD54D0C@nrubsig.org> <17985.50018.212537.51647@gargle.gargle.HOWL> X-Authentication-warning: binky.central.sun.com: nw141292 set sender to Nicolas.Williams@sun.com using -f User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.7i Status: RO Content-Length: 1789 On Wed, May 09, 2007 at 08:49:38AM -0400, James Carlson wrote: > Roland Mainz writes: > > Casper.Dik@Sun.COM wrote: > > > So we're going down that path some; I'm not sure we should go down > > > that path even further, especially when there are reasonable alternatives. > > > > I strongly think that putting any new defaults into /etc/skel/ files is > > the wrong solution. I am still suffering from the mistakes done by my > > predecessor six years ago and other sites are in a similar situation. > > I think it's possible to achieve a balance here. > > If the /etc/skel/.profile were to source a file elsewhere in /etc > (such as /etc/default), then almost all of the constraints would be > satisfied: Er, how about a slight variation (what I'd actually read when I wrote this was "nice"): Ship /etc/profile that by default just sources /etc/default/profile or some such (and ship that too) -- the former is customer editable and never modified on update/patch, the latter is Sun editable and potentially replaced on update/patch. Sysadmins can always replace /etc/profile with a version that doesn't source /etc/default/profile. > - Existing users would not see any change as a result of this > project. - Existing users would see changes only to defaults they'd not set before. > - Newly-created users would see the default environment. Check. > - The default environment would be centrally-located and could be > updated in the future without having to visit each user's local > home directory. Check. > You could even make that two separate files -- one for defaults > delivered by the OS distribution, and another for defaults set by the > local administrator. (One type 'f' in packaging, the other > intentionally not delivered at all.) Check. From Nicolas.Williams@sun.com Wed May 9 08:22:20 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l49FMJj7012610 for ; Wed, 9 May 2007 08:22:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l49FKpot000723; Wed, 9 May 2007 23:21:11 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JHS002055BABJ00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 09 May 2007 08:21:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from binky.central.sun.com ([129.153.128.104]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JHS00HL15B8V0A0@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 09 May 2007 08:21:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from binky.central.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by binky.central.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l49FJux4012251; Wed, 09 May 2007 10:19:56 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from nw141292@localhost) by binky.central.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/Submit) id l49FJurt012250; Wed, 09 May 2007 10:19:56 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 10:19:56 -0500 From: Nicolas Williams Subject: Re: [shell-discuss] Re: PSARC FastTrack [PSARC/2007/233]: Defaultshellenvironment:machine ksh93/back environment In-reply-to: <4641e2cc.v4lFHtaYwL2nWl11%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> To: Joerg Schilling Cc: shell-discuss@opensolaris.org, don.cragun@sun.com, PSARC-EXT@sun.com, Charles.Debardeleben@sun.com, brian.gupta@gmail.com Message-id: <20070509151955.GU10560@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200705050932.l459W1jn008092@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> <4641A9B2.52FBFD46@nrubsig.org> <20070509131542.GG10560@Sun.COM> <5b5090780705090625i7a5d50e8j2725535aa8cdd45@mail.gmail.com> <20070509133830.GL10560@Sun.COM> <4641D86E.F8771644@nrubsig.org> <4641debd.ZI4nxycWHgQS1vha%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <4641DFC9.EAFE4C1E@nrubsig.org> <4641e2cc.v4lFHtaYwL2nWl11%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> X-Authentication-warning: binky.central.sun.com: nw141292 set sender to Nicolas.Williams@sun.com using -f User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.7i Status: RO Content-Length: 811 On Wed, May 09, 2007 at 05:03:40PM +0200, Joerg Schilling wrote: > Roland Mainz wrote: > > > Even if you edit /etc/profile to enable e.g. editing, you break POSIX on such > > > a system. This is why convenience changes belong into /etc/skel > > > > This is AFAIK not true. Please read the email traffic for PSARC > > 2006/587, AFAIK Don Cragun commented exactly on this issue. Setting a > > default editor mode in /etc/ksh.kshrc or /etc/profile is not a violation > > of the POSIX shell standard since these files are read _after_ the shell > > started. > > If you edited /etc/profile, you cannot verify anymore whether the shell > behaves correctly, so I will not believe this. So there needs to be a way to turn off reading these files so that standards compliance can be tested? From jek3@sun.com Wed May 9 10:39:42 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l49Hdfw5023380 for ; Wed, 9 May 2007 10:39:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l49HcSIq015594; Thu, 10 May 2007 01:38:36 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JHS0020HBO8UK00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 09 May 2007 10:38:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com ([129.146.17.59]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JHS00HHBBO7FRA0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 09 May 2007 10:38:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [129.150.12.53] (vpn-129-150-12-53.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.12.53]) by jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l49HcTPR419817; Wed, 09 May 2007 10:38:30 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 07:38:01 -1000 From: Joseph Kowalski Subject: Re: PSARC FastTrack [PSARC/2007/233]: Default shellenvironment:machine ksh93/back environment In-reply-to: <4641A3E2.77B27D2C@nrubsig.org> To: Roland Mainz Cc: Casper.Dik@sun.com, Charles Debardeleben , David.Comay@sun.com, PSARC-EXT@sun.com, shell-discuss@opensolaris.org Message-id: <464206F9.8020402@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <462F7AEA.7060609@Sun.COM> <4638C074.CD692B71@nrubsig.org> <4638FBBC.2050007@sun.com> <463BF9AD.7B797D50@nrubsig.org> <200705050932.l459W1jn008092@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> <4641A3E2.77B27D2C@nrubsig.org> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060925) Status: RO Content-Length: 1370 Roland Mainz wrote: > Casper.Dik@Sun.COM wrote: > >>> Umpf... ;-/ >>> The whole "better default shell environment"-cases center around "better >>> defaults for beginners" (following the lead of distributions like SuSE, >>> Ubuntu and Debian 4.0) and not "personal preferences for the >>> professionals/admins/developers" (who likely start ranting about the >>> "defaults" and are able to change them to match their preferences in >>> their per-user configuration files. I agree that the defaults are not >>> "perfect" for experts but they are very helpfull for "beginners" (which >>> are usually not able to change this setting without learning the shell >>> first). >>> >> Then it occurs to me that setting them in /etc/profile, /etc/*rc* >> is WRONG. >> >> By all means, refresh /etc/skel and have beginners populate >> their accounts from there (as the tools do or should do) >> > > And how can we update those files in the user accounts ? What about a user who carefully edited his per-user files, to get the behavior he wanted, and one (or more) of those behaviors was to let the default remain? I think the short answer is that you don't *dare* change the behavior for existing users, irrespective of how they got there. If a site should desire to change all their users, that is a site specific customization to the proposed scripts. - jek3 From jek3@sun.com Wed May 9 10:45:53 2007 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l49HjrdH023965 for ; Wed, 9 May 2007 10:45:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l49HimLT019211; Wed, 9 May 2007 10:44:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JHS00D2HBYPBW00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 09 May 2007 11:44:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com ([129.146.17.63]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JHS00D7QBYO2O00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 09 May 2007 11:44:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [129.150.12.53] (vpn-129-150-12-53.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.12.53]) by jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l49HilK5421589; Wed, 09 May 2007 10:44:47 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 07:44:18 -1000 From: Joseph Kowalski Subject: Re: PSARC FastTrack [PSARC/2007/233]: Default shellenvironment:machine ksh93/back environment In-reply-to: <200705091105.l49B5smL059626@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> To: Casper.Dik@sun.com Cc: Roland Mainz , Charles Debardeleben , David.Comay@sun.com, PSARC-EXT@sun.com, shell-discuss@opensolaris.org Message-id: <46420872.6010800@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <462F7AEA.7060609@Sun.COM> <4638C074.CD692B71@nrubsig.org> <4638FBBC.2050007@sun.com> <463BF9AD.7B797D50@nrubsig.org> <200705050932.l459W1jn008092@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> <4641A3E2.77B27D2C@nrubsig.org> <200705091105.l49B5smL059626@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060925) Status: RO Content-Length: 847 Casper.Dik@Sun.COM wrote: > As it is, there are other problems which need to be addressed regardless > of the outcome of the discussion: > > - the upgrade process currently makes some edits to the > "skel" and /etc/* files > > this mechanism does not seem to be suited to the wholesale set > of changes proposed here (also because any changes by the > administrator to the files to revert the new defaults may be > then later undone) > > Options: > Punt > (edit only those things which are actual bugs and don't bother > ever updating the files after a system is installed) > > Overwrite > (copy the new file in place, regardless of the old content) > Down in the noise, but couldn't approved changes just be put at the beginning of the file and any pre-existing and now subsequent changes will take precedence? - jek3 From binarycrusader@gmail.com Wed May 9 11:31:38 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l49IVblx026114 for ; Wed, 9 May 2007 11:31:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l49IUSGE001317 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-EXT@sun.com>; Thu, 10 May 2007 02:30:33 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JHS0070XE2WKM00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Wed, 09 May 2007 11:30:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.98.43]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JHS00626E2V5D10@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Wed, 09 May 2007 11:30:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay1.sun.com (relay1.sun.com [150.143.103.14] (may be forged)) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l49Hf7XT014012 for ; Wed, 09 May 2007 18:30:31 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mms04es.sun.com ([150.143.104.74] [150.143.104.74]) by relay1.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-115538 for PSARC-EXT@sun.com; Wed, 09 May 2007 18:27:40 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay1.sun.com (relay1.sun.com [150.143.103.14]) by mms04es.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-2053908 for PSARC-EXT@sun.com; Wed, 09 May 2007 18:27:39 +0000 (Z) Received: from wr-out-0506.google.com ([64.233.184.236] [64.233.184.236]) by relay1.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-739408 for PSARC-EXT@sun.com; Wed, 09 May 2007 18:27:39 +0000 (Z) Received: by wr-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id 67so301321wri for ; Wed, 09 May 2007 11:27:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.78.154.9 with SMTP id b9mr232355hue.1178735258419; Wed, 09 May 2007 11:27:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.78.21.13 with HTTP; Wed, 09 May 2007 11:27:38 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 13:27:38 -0500 From: Shawn Walker Subject: Re: [shell-discuss] Re: PSARC FastTrack [PSARC/2007/233]: Default shellenvironment:machine ksh93/back environment In-reply-to: <464206F9.8020402@sun.com> To: Shells discussion Cc: Roland Mainz , David.Comay@sun.com, PSARC-EXT@sun.com, Charles Debardeleben , Casper.Dik@sun.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=MPWdwgHvMcV3wYXpIV3BXdWVcYUeQxYIWNqPN5xnJFxJjcbqFQtHcZqeAvg7jPRFQvpmlhoW6SGkzErTofiX8M5COboNjzqFkCcCADulJZ8sQfXK96p4cpZZu/swJUNFkn26bXqA3QHpBWNNk3zccl77ahp9HLsF5qDB5QGSGmg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=pw0vKdrkcsaLXsixNjc0JGR8VLY8z7X6rFhK3Ak7MFDJgC1ElaHnRcucFjxHoSxmYSfGMz15aDtClhSlDsGFspLt+PsVV+U6fzWyYV7nXjXEuxoUFXkWf2OG9YH2syN4OYO7zLQYPOJxlrq1muE+22D1XjvaKAFfZ1eX3M2OQgA= X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <462F7AEA.7060609@Sun.COM> <4638C074.CD692B71@nrubsig.org> <4638FBBC.2050007@sun.com> <463BF9AD.7B797D50@nrubsig.org> <200705050932.l459W1jn008092@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> <4641A3E2.77B27D2C@nrubsig.org> <464206F9.8020402@sun.com> Status: RO Content-Length: 2590 On 09/05/07, Joseph Kowalski wrote: > Roland Mainz wrote: > > Casper.Dik@Sun.COM wrote: > > > >>> Umpf... ;-/ > >>> The whole "better default shell environment"-cases center around "better > >>> defaults for beginners" (following the lead of distributions like SuSE, > >>> Ubuntu and Debian 4.0) and not "personal preferences for the > >>> professionals/admins/developers" (who likely start ranting about the > >>> "defaults" and are able to change them to match their preferences in > >>> their per-user configuration files. I agree that the defaults are not > >>> "perfect" for experts but they are very helpfull for "beginners" (which > >>> are usually not able to change this setting without learning the shell > >>> first). > >>> > >> Then it occurs to me that setting them in /etc/profile, /etc/*rc* > >> is WRONG. > >> > >> By all means, refresh /etc/skel and have beginners populate > >> their accounts from there (as the tools do or should do) > >> > > > > And how can we update those files in the user accounts ? > What about a user who carefully edited his per-user files, to get the > behavior he > wanted, and one (or more) of those behaviors was to let the default remain? > > I think the short answer is that you don't *dare* change the behavior > for existing > users, irrespective of how they got there. > > If a site should desire to change all their users, that is a site > specific customization > to the proposed scripts. Jackpot winner! This sums up my greatest concern. Honestly, the only sane approach here seems to be the /etc/skel one. The appraoch where /etc/skel sources some other file in /etc leaves me uncomfortable since changing defaults means a change in behaviour the user doesn't expect if the shell is updated, etc. Roland's concerns regarding site-wide mandatory defaults, and his own restrictions are not relevant since administrators can continue to manually edit /etc/* whatever to enforce the behaviour he wants. Not only that, I think that the whole mandatory site defaults thing has to be addressed completely separately, if at all, from this particular case. Roland, I strongly suggest you just approach this with /etc/skel and try to deal with the other problems in a different way. Changing defaults for existing users through an update is horrid, I understand the situation you are in, but you have a way out of it that you can use on your own. -- "Less is only more where more is no good." --Frank Lloyd Wright Shawn Walker, Software and Systems Analyst binarycrusader@gmail.com - http://binarycrusader.blogspot.com/ From casper@holland.sun.com Wed May 9 11:37:40 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l49IbdV3026277 for ; Wed, 9 May 2007 11:37:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l49IaRW7018892; Wed, 9 May 2007 19:36:33 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JHS00811ECW4N00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 09 May 2007 11:36:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com ([129.159.237.36]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JHS006J8ECV5C10@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 09 May 2007 11:36:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from holland (room101 [129.159.248.23]) by sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7) with ESMTP id l49IaU5v041759; Wed, 09 May 2007 20:36:30 +0200 (MEST) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 20:36:25 +0200 From: Casper.Dik@sun.com Subject: Re: PSARC FastTrack [PSARC/2007/233]: Default shellenvironment:machine ksh93/back environment In-reply-to: <46420872.6010800@sun.com> Sender: casper@holland.sun.com To: Joseph Kowalski Cc: Roland Mainz , Charles Debardeleben , David.Comay@sun.com, PSARC-EXT@sun.com, shell-discuss@opensolaris.org Message-id: <200705091836.l49IaU5v041759@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <462F7AEA.7060609@Sun.COM> <4638C074.CD692B71@nrubsig.org> <4638FBBC.2050007@sun.com> <463BF9AD.7B797D50@nrubsig.org> <200705050932.l459W1jn008092@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> <4641A3E2.77B27D2C@nrubsig.org> <200705091105.l49B5smL059626@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> <46420872.6010800@sun.com> Status: RO Content-Length: 963 >Casper.Dik@Sun.COM wrote: >> As it is, there are other problems which need to be addressed regardless >> of the outcome of the discussion: >> >> - the upgrade process currently makes some edits to the >> "skel" and /etc/* files >> >> this mechanism does not seem to be suited to the wholesale set >> of changes proposed here (also because any changes by the >> administrator to the files to revert the new defaults may be >> then later undone) >> >> Options: >> Punt >> (edit only those things which are actual bugs and don't bother >> ever updating the files after a system is installed) >> >> Overwrite >> (copy the new file in place, regardless of the old content) >> >Down in the noise, but couldn't approved changes just be put at the >beginning >of the file and any pre-existing and now subsequent changes will take >precedence? You're just being clever, aren't you? :-) Not a bad suggestion, if a bit clumsy looking. Casper From Darren.Moffat@sun.com Mon May 14 05:31:31 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4ECVUoU004365 for ; Mon, 14 May 2007 05:31:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4ECUIvQ015308 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-EXT@sun.com>; Mon, 14 May 2007 13:30:23 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JI10002L6QLMM00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@Sun.COM); Mon, 14 May 2007 05:30:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com ([129.156.42.5]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JI1000DZ6QI7T20@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@Sun.COM); Mon, 14 May 2007 05:30:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d1-emea-09.sun.com (d1-emea-09.sun.com [192.18.2.119]) by gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l4ECUIZI000708 for ; Mon, 14 May 2007 12:30:18 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-emea-09.sun.com by d1-emea-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JI100J016KHH000@d1-emea-09.sun.com> (original mail from Darren.Moffat@Sun.COM) for PSARC-EXT@Sun.COM (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@Sun.COM); Mon, 14 May 2007 13:30:17 +0100 (BST) Received: from [129.156.173.21] by d1-emea-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JI100CMH6QH3B20@d1-emea-09.sun.com> for PSARC-EXT@Sun.COM (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@Sun.COM); Mon, 14 May 2007 13:30:17 +0100 (BST) Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 13:30:17 +0100 From: Darren J Moffat Subject: PSARC/2007/233 [derailed] default shell machine ksh93/bash environment Sender: Darren.Moffat@sun.com To: PSARC-EXT@sun.com Message-id: <46485659.40501@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0b2 (X11/20070326) Status: RO Content-Length: 818 This case was derailed at PSARC on Wednesday 9th May, since it was clear from the discussion that is was not reaching consensus and is deemed controversial to at least some members. The recommendation is to bring a full case to review covering all four of: 2007/233 Default shell environment: machine ksh93/bash environment 2007/234 Default shell environment: Skeleton user sh/ksh/ksh93/bash 2007/235 Default shell environment: manual page subsystem 2007/236 Default shell environment: TMPDIR There should be no further email discussion on this alias about these cases since they are no longer fast-tracks. The submitter and sponsor will arrange the next steps. The full case review should it happen will be an open review, details of how to attend will be sent if/when it is schedule. -- Darren J Moffat