From sacadmin Wed Apr 25 08:55:04 2007 Received: from sac.sfbay.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l3PFt40Y002547; Wed, 25 Apr 2007 08:55:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from darrenm@localhost) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/Submit) id l3PFt4vJ002543; Wed, 25 Apr 2007 08:55:04 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 08:55:04 -0700 (PDT) From: Darren J Moffat Message-Id: <200704251555.l3PFt4vJ002543@sac.sfbay.sun.com> To: PSARC@sac.sfbay.sun.com Cc: roland.mainz@nrubsig.org, shell-discussion@opensolaris.org Subject: Default shell environment: manual page subsystem [PSARC/2007/235 Timeout: 05/02/2007] Status: RO Content-Length: 3355 Subject: PSARC FastTrack [05/02/2007]: Default shell environment: manual page subsystem Template Version: @(#)sac_nextcase %I% %G% SMI 1. Introduction 1.1. Project/Component Working Name: Default shell environment: manual page subsystem 1.2. Name of Document Author/Supplier: Author: Roland Mainz 1.3 Date of This Document: 25 April, 2007 4. Technical Description Default shell environment enhancements: manual page subsystem Description and Justification: This case proposes to introduce a set of enhancements for the default shell environment in Solaris to provide a more user-friendly environment for new users which are not yet familar with all the details in Unix and to provide some help for adminstrators via introducing better system-wide defaults and more configuration options. The proposed changes are: - Modifications to "/etc/profile" (and csh's "/etc/.login") to provide beginner friendly defaults for the manual page-subsystem via the MANPATH (set to a value calculated from PATH if MANPATH was not set yet, for example if PATH is set to "/opt/SUNWspro/bin:/usr/dt/bin:/usr/bin" the value for MANPATH should be "/opt/SUNWspro/man:/usr/dt/man:/usr/man") and PAGER (set to "/usr/bin/less" if this binary is available and PAGER was not set yet, otherwise the PAGER variable will not be set) environment variables. The purpose of this change is to provide reasonable defaults for MANPATH and PAGER which are beginner-friendly and should allow an unexperienced user to easily navigate in the manual page subsystem without learning how to setup the system first (this is quite a catch22, currently you won't get help for anything outside "/usr/man" unless you learn how to modify your login shell environment). Most other operating systems like Linux or *BSD provide similar defaults. PAGER=/usr/bin/less was selected because: - Usuablity: "/usr/bin/less" is quite easy and intuitive to use, including working cursor keys for navigation, the abilty to search in documents and a built-in help system. - Improved interoperability/consistency of user environments: The majority of other Unix-like operating systems use "less" as default (for example SuSE Linux sets PAGER unconditionally to "less"). - Support for non-ASII charatcer sets/languages: "/usr/bin/less" is CSI-enabled (e.g. can handle multibyte data/locales ; "/usr/bin/more" is _not_ CSI-enabled) - "/usr/bin/less" is actively maintained by the GNU community. Notes: - The settings of MANPATH and PAGER are set in "/etc/profile" for the whole machine but users are always allowed to override these settings in their local environment files (e.g. ~/.profile, ~/.kshrc, ~/.bashrc) on demand. Interfaces: Interface Stability Description ========= ========= =========== env-var "MANPATH" Committed Environment variable to define the search path for man(1) env-var "PAGER" Committed Environment variable to define the viewer used by man(1) to browse manual pages. 6. Resources and Schedule 6.4. Steering Committee requested information 6.4.1. Consolidation C-team Name: ON 6.5. ARC review type: FastTrack From carlsonj@phorcys.east.sun.com Thu Apr 26 12:29:53 2007 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l3QJTq4o011907 for ; Thu, 26 Apr 2007 12:29:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l3QJT14T003908 for <@sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-EXT@Sun.COM>; Thu, 26 Apr 2007 12:29:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JH40071BE4AYL00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for PSARC-EXT@Sun.COM (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@Sun.COM); Thu, 26 Apr 2007 12:28:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com ([129.148.174.143]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JH4003I9E49OD50@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for PSARC-EXT@Sun.COM (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@Sun.COM); Thu, 26 Apr 2007 12:28:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l3QJSvXA003900; Thu, 26 Apr 2007 15:28:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from carlsonj@localhost) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1/Submit) id l3QJSvCU003897; Thu, 26 Apr 2007 15:28:57 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 15:28:56 -0400 From: James Carlson Subject: 2007/235 Default shell environment: manualpage subsystem In-reply-to: <4630FBC2.2CFD5C73@nrubsig.org> To: Roland Mainz Cc: Peter Tribble , PSARC-EXT@sun.com, shell-discuss@opensolaris.org Message-id: <17968.64888.989719.834586@gargle.gargle.HOWL> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: VM 7.01 under Emacs 21.3.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <462F7B67.6070606@Sun.COM> <4630FBC2.2CFD5C73@nrubsig.org> Status: RO Content-Length: 1461 [Please note the corrected subject line; mail to the ARC must have a case number in the subject line in order to be archived properly.] Roland Mainz writes: > > Also, I wouldn't want elements excluded from the MANPATH just because > > they're not in the current PATH. > > > > I also have a feeling that we're doing the search in the wrong place > > - would it not make more sense to enhance the man command > > itself to find manpages better? > > The problem is that this has been suggested over and over again and > bugs.opensolaris.org is full of various > ideas/suggestions/rants/complains. At some point I'd like to get an > improvement, even it's a small one. Better a small improvement which is > limited to changing some environment variable and improves some things > for the end-users instead of a cool plan to "fix" /usr/bin/more, > /usr/bin/man and all other tools and then never surfaces before Solaris > 11 FCS is out. As an architectural matter, I don't buy that story. If the right answer is to enhance /usr/bin/man so that it just does the right thing, then let's do that. Doing a one-time conversion of $PATH to $MANPATH seems like hackery to me, and something that's likely to get users even deeper into trouble. -- James Carlson, Solaris Networking Sun Microsystems / 1 Network Drive 71.232W Vox +1 781 442 2084 MS UBUR02-212 / Burlington MA 01803-2757 42.496N Fax +1 781 442 1677 From roland.mainz@nrubsig.org Thu Apr 26 13:05:33 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l3QK5Wfh013693 for ; Thu, 26 Apr 2007 13:05:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l3QK4XEF006460; Fri, 27 Apr 2007 04:04:36 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JH400D0DFRK4A00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Thu, 26 Apr 2007 14:04:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sca-ea-mail-4.sun.com ([192.18.43.22]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JH400DN6FRJ7GD0@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Thu, 26 Apr 2007 14:04:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay2.sun.com (relay2.sun.com [150.143.103.24] (may be forged)) by sca-ea-mail-4.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l3QHhKYR002450; Thu, 26 Apr 2007 20:04:31 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mms03es.sun.com ([150.143.104.54] [150.143.104.54]) by relay2.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-141065; Thu, 26 Apr 2007 20:04:31 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay02i.sun.com (ip72.net150143-60.block3.us.syntegra.com [150.143.60.72]) by mms03es.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-259245; Thu, 26 Apr 2007 20:04:31 +0000 (Z) Received: from mail-in-01.arcor-online.net ([151.189.21.41] [151.189.21.41]) by relay0i.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-1463478; Thu, 26 Apr 2007 20:04:30 +0000 (Z) Received: from mail-in-01-z2.arcor-online.net (mail-in-06-z2.arcor-online.net [151.189.8.18]) by mail-in-01.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2D161D31B9; Thu, 26 Apr 2007 22:02:44 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mail-in-10.arcor-online.net (mail-in-10.arcor-online.net [151.189.21.50]) by mail-in-01-z2.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA70AC39E6; Thu, 26 Apr 2007 22:02:43 +0200 (CEST) Received: from jupiterb48.nrubsig.org (dslb-084-059-024-105.pools.arcor-ip.net [84.59.24.105]) by mail-in-10.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61FBD24D7EF; Thu, 26 Apr 2007 22:02:43 +0200 (CEST) Received: from nrubsig.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by jupiterb48.nrubsig.org (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l3QK2emU008801; Thu, 26 Apr 2007 22:02:41 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 22:02:40 +0200 From: Roland Mainz Subject: Re: 2007/235 Default shell environment: manualpage subsystem Sender: gisburn@jupiterb48.nrubsig.org To: James Carlson Cc: Peter Tribble , PSARC-EXT@sun.com, shell-discuss@opensolaris.org, Michelle Olson Message-id: <46310560.FFD45580@nrubsig.org> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.11 sun4u) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <462F7B67.6070606@Sun.COM> <4630FBC2.2CFD5C73@nrubsig.org> <17968.64888.989719.834586@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Status: RO Content-Length: 1937 James Carlson wrote: [snip] > Roland Mainz writes: [snip] > > The problem is that this has been suggested over and over again and > > bugs.opensolaris.org is full of various > > ideas/suggestions/rants/complains. At some point I'd like to get an > > improvement, even it's a small one. Better a small improvement which is > > limited to changing some environment variable and improves some things > > for the end-users instead of a cool plan to "fix" /usr/bin/more, > > /usr/bin/man and all other tools and then never surfaces before Solaris > > 11 FCS is out. > > As an architectural matter, I don't buy that story. > > If the right answer is to enhance /usr/bin/man so that it just does > the right thing, then let's do that. In theory I would agree. But there is much more wrong with /usr/bin/man - during the OSDevConf2007 in Berlin this year I've met with Michelle Olson and discussed some details and she got two hand-written DIN-A4 pages from me, full of tightly-written comments listing the issues about "what's wrong with the manual page subsystem". Fixing these issues alone is much work, I estimate 4-5years/enginee to hunt down and deal with these issues... ... would you really _wait_ that long until you want to deliver any improvmentts to the endusers ? I really would prefer to get some improvements _NOW_ and not wait another year since this would _not_ improve the situation for the end-users. > Doing a one-time conversion of > $PATH to $MANPATH seems like hackery to me, and something that's > likely to get users even deeper into trouble. What about moving the matching stuff into a seperate script (e.g. /usr/lib/shell/pathtomanpath (or /usr/sbin/pathtomanpath)) that it can be used for end-users in their ~/.profile, too ? ---- Bye, Roland -- __ . . __ (o.\ \/ /.o) roland.mainz@nrubsig.org \__\/\/__/ MPEG specialist, C&&JAVA&&Sun&&Unix programmer /O /==\ O\ TEL +49 641 7950090 (;O/ \/ \O;) From roland.mainz@nrubsig.org Thu Apr 26 13:36:10 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l3QKa9Ls014440 for ; Thu, 26 Apr 2007 13:36:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l3QKZCfl014522; Fri, 27 Apr 2007 04:35:13 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JH400B09H6OAJ00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Thu, 26 Apr 2007 13:35:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sca-ea-mail-3.sun.com ([192.18.43.21]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JH4003EUH6OO280@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Thu, 26 Apr 2007 13:35:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay2.sun.com (relay2.sun.com [150.143.103.24] (may be forged)) by sca-ea-mail-3.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l3QHhMoh011775; Thu, 26 Apr 2007 20:35:11 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mms04es.sun.com ([150.143.104.74] [150.143.104.74]) by relay2.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-144607; Thu, 26 Apr 2007 20:35:11 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay2.sun.com (relay2.sun.com [150.143.103.24]) by mms04es.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-1436036; Thu, 26 Apr 2007 20:35:11 +0000 (Z) Received: from mail-in-06.arcor-online.net ([151.189.21.46] [151.189.21.46]) by relay2.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-1111836; Thu, 26 Apr 2007 20:35:11 +0000 (Z) Received: from mail-in-01-z2.arcor-online.net (mail-in-09-z2.arcor-online.net [151.189.8.21]) by mail-in-06.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94DA92C9BF7; Thu, 26 Apr 2007 22:35:10 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mail-in-06.arcor-online.net (mail-in-06.arcor-online.net [151.189.21.46]) by mail-in-01-z2.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BCD528EC66; Thu, 26 Apr 2007 22:35:10 +0200 (CEST) Received: from jupiterb48.nrubsig.org (dslb-084-059-024-105.pools.arcor-ip.net [84.59.24.105]) by mail-in-06.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5231035E5AB; Thu, 26 Apr 2007 22:35:10 +0200 (CEST) Received: from nrubsig.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by jupiterb48.nrubsig.org (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l3QKZ7Jg008811; Thu, 26 Apr 2007 22:35:08 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 22:35:07 +0200 From: Roland Mainz Subject: Re: 2007/235 Default shell environment: manualpage subsystem Sender: gisburn@jupiterb48.nrubsig.org To: James Carlson Cc: Peter Tribble , PSARC-EXT@sun.com, shell-discuss@opensolaris.org, Michelle Olson Message-id: <46310CFB.CE4D1763@nrubsig.org> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.11 sun4u) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <462F7B67.6070606@Sun.COM> <4630FBC2.2CFD5C73@nrubsig.org> <17968.64888.989719.834586@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Status: RO Content-Length: 1610 James Carlson wrote: [snip] > Roland Mainz writes: [snip] > > The problem is that this has been suggested over and over again and > > bugs.opensolaris.org is full of various > > ideas/suggestions/rants/complains. At some point I'd like to get an > > improvement, even it's a small one. Better a small improvement which is > > limited to changing some environment variable and improves some things > > for the end-users instead of a cool plan to "fix" /usr/bin/more, > > /usr/bin/man and all other tools and then never surfaces before Solaris > > 11 FCS is out. > > As an architectural matter, I don't buy that story. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Erm, I missed that line... ... from an architectural viewpoint I agree with you. But as I said /usr/bin/man needs more fixes and when I start working on fixing /usr/bin/man I'd like to make an "inception review" (or how it's really called) and then start doing a full revamp. It may need some time (and I am not sure how much time it needs since I have to find a normal job first and do that project in my free time) and I really would prefer that the people here start opening their hearts for the end-users and try to get some small improvements done _now_. It's architecturally not correct but it would help lots of the end-users. Remeber these cases are about _usuablity_ which is difficult to measure with a "foot rule" or other physical tools... ---- Bye, Roland -- __ . . __ (o.\ \/ /.o) roland.mainz@nrubsig.org \__\/\/__/ MPEG specialist, C&&JAVA&&Sun&&Unix programmer /O /==\ O\ TEL +49 641 7950090 (;O/ \/ \O;) From danek.duvall@Sun.COM Thu Apr 26 15:03:03 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l3QM32l3017531 for ; Thu, 26 Apr 2007 15:03:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l3QM29Yl017228 for <@newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com:PSARC-EXT@sun.com>; Thu, 26 Apr 2007 23:02:10 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JH400203L7K7L00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Thu, 26 Apr 2007 16:02:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sfbaymail2sca.sfbay.sun.com ([129.145.155.42]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JH400EGKL7KP850@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Thu, 26 Apr 2007 16:02:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from zruty.sfbay.sun.com (zruty.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.168.40]) by sfbaymail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.10/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l3QM27L5025933; Thu, 26 Apr 2007 15:02:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zruty.sfbay.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zruty.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.0+Sun/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3QLGu4Q029877; Thu, 26 Apr 2007 14:16:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from dduvall@localhost) by zruty.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.0+Sun/8.14.0/Submit) id l3QLGuCq029876; Thu, 26 Apr 2007 14:16:56 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 14:16:55 -0700 From: Danek Duvall Subject: Re: 2007/235 Default shell environment: manualpage subsystem In-reply-to: <46310560.FFD45580@nrubsig.org> To: Roland Mainz Cc: James Carlson , PSARC-EXT@Sun.COM, shell-discuss@opensolaris.org, Michelle Olson Message-id: <20070426211655.GM1864@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <462F7B67.6070606@Sun.COM> <4630FBC2.2CFD5C73@nrubsig.org> <17968.64888.989719.834586@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <46310560.FFD45580@nrubsig.org> User-Agent: mutt-ng/devel-r535 (SunOS) Status: RO Content-Length: 1248 On Thu, Apr 26, 2007 at 10:02:40PM +0200, Roland Mainz wrote: > In theory I would agree. But there is much more wrong with /usr/bin/man > - during the OSDevConf2007 in Berlin this year I've met with Michelle > Olson and discussed some details and she got two hand-written DIN-A4 > pages from me, full of tightly-written comments listing the issues about > "what's wrong with the manual page subsystem". Fixing these issues alone > is much work, I estimate 4-5years/enginee to hunt down and deal with > these issues... But you don't have to deal with all those issues at once. You can deliver the (pretty simple) improvement to man to make it derive MANPATH from PATH if MANPATH doesn't already exist without having to spend the next five years rewriting man from scratch, and have it in within the next build or two. That is, if you wanted to. It took me about twenty minutes, given that I hadn't looked at the man source before, to whip up a working prototype. The only thing in my mind that makes this more than a trivial feature enhancement is the possibility of considering this behavior an interface that would need to be ARCed -- how would it evolve, if at all, once man has taken all the changes you proposed in your two pages. Danek From binarycrusader@gmail.com Thu Apr 26 16:27:27 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l3QNRQYT020140 for ; Thu, 26 Apr 2007 16:27:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l3QNQNnu001762 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-EXT@sun.com>; Fri, 27 Apr 2007 07:26:34 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JH400L0DP47MV00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Thu, 26 Apr 2007 16:26:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sca-ea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.43.24]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JH4002OWP476SB0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Thu, 26 Apr 2007 16:26:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay2.sun.com (relay2.sun.com [150.143.103.24] (may be forged)) by sca-ea-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l3QMEKPi029567 for ; Thu, 26 Apr 2007 23:26:31 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mms02es.sun.com ([150.143.104.34] [150.143.104.34]) by relay2.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-161308 for PSARC-EXT@sun.com; Thu, 26 Apr 2007 23:26:17 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay3.sun.com (relay3.sun.com [150.143.103.54]) by mms02es.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-513715 for PSARC-EXT@sun.com; Thu, 26 Apr 2007 23:26:17 +0000 (Z) Received: from wr-out-0506.google.com ([64.233.184.231] [64.233.184.231]) by relay3.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-1199220 for PSARC-EXT@sun.com; Thu, 26 Apr 2007 23:26:16 +0000 (Z) Received: by wr-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id 67so771784wri for ; Thu, 26 Apr 2007 16:26:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.78.149.15 with SMTP id w15mr632263hud.1177629975892; Thu, 26 Apr 2007 16:26:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.78.17.18 with HTTP; Thu, 26 Apr 2007 16:26:15 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 18:26:15 -0500 From: Shawn Walker Subject: Re: [shell-discuss] Re: 2007/235 Default shell environment: manualpage subsystem In-reply-to: <20070426211655.GM1864@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> To: Shells discussion Cc: Roland Mainz , PSARC-EXT@sun.com, Michelle Olson Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=MK/GYiqPT5vDZyRuQdATyxEqXUmipWZ/WPG+gVLg3IbW5GMqQqdMRTCgiimq/Ix8Y3iOssx2uCE7UkMtvNxoqSN1QsV4S+UCpjgwCNXc66NYTReYewlrcoh1MnHRSVXitI8akFGjOyT8av7/S3oSh779U/OsxLH1AwGJ5jM7wvs= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=IT0SzJm3K1bIQFQns5xMqpjqzHA+mecnLijwZ9SNGXu93sQMtiWZoY4hn0ok2FkC2vel2IPMWCeZWI3362vGT18OKiZhMh3lO2aUDaEKnZxdYmgnUTQ+fITQePjQQ+RvW2UIHpJpcz2jD/Hf2Kg1E02XsFeMTdr4++1zEXBvEno= X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <462F7B67.6070606@Sun.COM> <4630FBC2.2CFD5C73@nrubsig.org> <17968.64888.989719.834586@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <46310560.FFD45580@nrubsig.org> <20070426211655.GM1864@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> Status: RO Content-Length: 1787 On 26/04/07, Danek Duvall wrote: > On Thu, Apr 26, 2007 at 10:02:40PM +0200, Roland Mainz wrote: > > > In theory I would agree. But there is much more wrong with /usr/bin/man > > - during the OSDevConf2007 in Berlin this year I've met with Michelle > > Olson and discussed some details and she got two hand-written DIN-A4 > > pages from me, full of tightly-written comments listing the issues about > > "what's wrong with the manual page subsystem". Fixing these issues alone > > is much work, I estimate 4-5years/enginee to hunt down and deal with > > these issues... > > But you don't have to deal with all those issues at once. You can deliver > the (pretty simple) improvement to man to make it derive MANPATH from PATH > if MANPATH doesn't already exist without having to spend the next five > years rewriting man from scratch, and have it in within the next build or > two. That is, if you wanted to. It took me about twenty minutes, given > that I hadn't looked at the man source before, to whip up a working > prototype. > > The only thing in my mind that makes this more than a trivial feature > enhancement is the possibility of considering this behavior an interface > that would need to be ARCed -- how would it evolve, if at all, once man has > taken all the changes you proposed in your two pages. I have to agree with Danek's sentiment here. In my personal experience, my PATH and MANPATH are fairly close to being identical. I was always annoyed that I had to set both. To me, this perfectly fits the whole serendipitous discovery conversation that occurred recently. -- "Less is only more where more is no good." --Frank Lloyd Wright Shawn Walker, Software and Systems Analyst binarycrusader@gmail.com - http://binarycrusader.blogspot.com/ From carlsonj@phorcys.east.sun.com Fri Apr 27 14:35:36 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l3RLZZu6005029 for ; Fri, 27 Apr 2007 14:35:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l3RLYGen025898; Sat, 28 Apr 2007 05:34:40 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JH600203ELR1K00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Fri, 27 Apr 2007 14:34:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com ([129.148.174.143]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JH600BNGELQNLC0@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Fri, 27 Apr 2007 14:34:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l3RLYbEY008960; Fri, 27 Apr 2007 17:34:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from carlsonj@localhost) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1/Submit) id l3RLYbJE008957; Fri, 27 Apr 2007 17:34:37 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 17:34:37 -0400 From: James Carlson Subject: Re: 2007/235 Default shell environment: manualpage subsystem In-reply-to: <46310CFB.CE4D1763@nrubsig.org> To: Roland Mainz Cc: Peter Tribble , PSARC-EXT@sun.com, shell-discuss@opensolaris.org, Michelle Olson Message-id: <17970.27757.385798.543703@gargle.gargle.HOWL> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: VM 7.01 under Emacs 21.3.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <462F7B67.6070606@Sun.COM> <4630FBC2.2CFD5C73@nrubsig.org> <17968.64888.989719.834586@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <46310CFB.CE4D1763@nrubsig.org> Status: RO Content-Length: 2049 Roland Mainz writes: > > As an architectural matter, I don't buy that story. > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > Erm, I missed that line... > ... from an architectural viewpoint I agree with you. But as I said > /usr/bin/man needs more fixes and when I start working on fixing > /usr/bin/man I'd like to make an "inception review" (or how it's really > called) and then start doing a full revamp. It may need some time (and I > am not sure how much time it needs since I have to find a normal job > first and do that project in my free time) and I really would prefer > that the people here start opening their hearts for the end-users and > try to get some small improvements done _now_. It's architecturally not > correct but it would help lots of the end-users. Remeber these cases are > about _usuablity_ which is difficult to measure with a "foot rule" or > other physical tools... It's not an issue of "opening [our] hearts." Please don't pretend as though the folks reviewing your proposal are hostile to users. That's just not the case, and it makes it very difficult to comment rationally on the proposal. The concern I have is that the proposed solution may well be at odds with a better solution. In other words, suppose we do go with your proposal to set MANPATH exactly once during shell start-up, based on the PATH at that point. If the user changes his PATH, MANPATH won't get those changes. But that's just life with environment variables. If we later come along and enhance /usr/bin/man so that it searches the ../bin parallels of PATH, but only when MANPATH is unset (in order to honor compatibility), then the proposed "fix" from this project will actually get in the way and will need to be undone -- somehow. So, why produce a poor answer when a better one is possible? -- James Carlson, Solaris Networking Sun Microsystems / 1 Network Drive 71.232W Vox +1 781 442 2084 MS UBUR02-212 / Burlington MA 01803-2757 42.496N Fax +1 781 442 1677 From roland.mainz@nrubsig.org Wed May 2 12:28:54 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l42JSrCF001292 for ; Wed, 2 May 2007 12:28:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l42JRjrA019925; Thu, 3 May 2007 03:27:51 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JHF0025PI2C9H00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 02 May 2007 12:27:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com ([192.18.98.36]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JHF00E2ZI2BZID0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 02 May 2007 12:27:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay24.sun.com (ip192-12-251-74.block6.us.syntegra.com [192.12.251.74]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l42JRlsv008321; Wed, 02 May 2007 19:27:47 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mms22es.sun.com ([150.143.232.34] [150.143.232.34]) by relay24.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-205683; Wed, 02 May 2007 19:27:47 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay22.sun.com (relay22.sun.com [192.12.251.34]) by mms22es.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-1623479; Wed, 02 May 2007 19:27:46 +0000 (Z) Received: from mail-in-08.arcor-online.net ([151.189.21.48] [151.189.21.48]) by relay22.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-10129043; Wed, 02 May 2007 19:27:46 +0000 (Z) Received: from mail-in-01-z2.arcor-online.net (mail-in-10-z2.arcor-online.net [151.189.8.27]) by mail-in-08.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58AFB292C54; Wed, 02 May 2007 21:27:45 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mail-in-04.arcor-online.net (mail-in-04.arcor-online.net [151.189.21.44]) by mail-in-01-z2.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42FFC23DE87; Wed, 02 May 2007 21:27:45 +0200 (CEST) Received: from jupiterb48.nrubsig.org (dslb-084-058-235-204.pools.arcor-ip.net [84.58.235.204]) by mail-in-04.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16B3F1BF390; Wed, 02 May 2007 21:27:44 +0200 (CEST) Received: from nrubsig.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by jupiterb48.nrubsig.org (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l42JRgaM000778; Wed, 02 May 2007 21:27:42 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 02 May 2007 21:27:41 +0200 From: Roland Mainz Subject: Re: 2007/235 Default shell environment: manualpage subsystem Sender: gisburn@jupiterb48.nrubsig.org To: James Carlson Cc: Peter Tribble , PSARC-EXT@sun.com, shell-discuss@opensolaris.org, Michelle Olson Message-id: <4638E62D.92F4E3A2@nrubsig.org> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.11 sun4u) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <462F7B67.6070606@Sun.COM> <4630FBC2.2CFD5C73@nrubsig.org> <17968.64888.989719.834586@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <46310CFB.CE4D1763@nrubsig.org> <17970.27757.385798.543703@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Status: RO Content-Length: 3722 James Carlson wrote: > Roland Mainz writes: > > > As an architectural matter, I don't buy that story. > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > > > Erm, I missed that line... > > ... from an architectural viewpoint I agree with you. But as I said > > /usr/bin/man needs more fixes and when I start working on fixing > > /usr/bin/man I'd like to make an "inception review" (or how it's really > > called) and then start doing a full revamp. It may need some time (and I > > am not sure how much time it needs since I have to find a normal job > > first and do that project in my free time) and I really would prefer > > that the people here start opening their hearts for the end-users and > > try to get some small improvements done _now_. It's architecturally not > > correct but it would help lots of the end-users. Remeber these cases are > > about _usuablity_ which is difficult to measure with a "foot rule" or > > other physical tools... > > It's not an issue of "opening [our] hearts." Please don't pretend as > though the folks reviewing your proposal are hostile to users. That's > just not the case, and it makes it very difficult to comment > rationally on the proposal. Erm... no no... this wasn't thought to accuse ARC of being a heartless 26-headed monster which eats cooked end-users ("...each meeting a different recipe...") ... :-) ... the idea was to try to remind people to think like beginners and/or end-users. Most people subscribed to opensolaris-arc@&co. work with shells for many many years and can quickly handle problems and ignore minor hiccups almost automatically by typing another key. For the beginners these "hiccups" (like setting an editor mode manually via $ set -o gmacs #) are horrible things which are black magic, written down on papers glued on the left/right side on the monitor, usually like "<->. Response is a new line and a "$" and a blinking square. If the respose is anything else call the admin, number is 7950090". They usually do not even know what the command does. Even to refresh the current line is "magic" for them (which may not be obvious for more experienced users who no longer see this as the "wonder of the shell" ...) ... > The concern I have is that the proposed solution may well be at odds > with a better solution. In other words, suppose we do go with your > proposal to set MANPATH exactly once during shell start-up, based on > the PATH at that point. If the user changes his PATH, MANPATH won't > get those changes. But that's just life with environment variables. Technically only those users change PATH or MANPATH who are familar enougth with the shell and _know_ what the change may affect. > If we later come along and enhance /usr/bin/man so that it searches > the ../bin parallels of PATH, but only when MANPATH is unset (in order > to honor compatibility), then the proposed "fix" from this project > will actually get in the way and will need to be undone -- somehow. > > So, why produce a poor answer when a better one is possible? What about the resource "manpower" ? If I take on /usr/bin/man then I want to do a complete overhaul of that thing and not a half solution. For example it makes me unhappy that the manual pages are in a DocBook-like format but /usr/bin/man exposes zero features of Docbook to the end-users (and the intermediate generation of troff files causes trouble with tables, non-ASCII charatcers, transliteration, embedded code examples etc.). ---- Bye, Roland -- __ . . __ (o.\ \/ /.o) roland.mainz@nrubsig.org \__\/\/__/ MPEG specialist, C&&JAVA&&Sun&&Unix programmer /O /==\ O\ TEL +49 641 7950090 (;O/ \/ \O;) From sommerfeld@Sun.COM Wed May 2 13:33:52 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l42KXp7H005439 for ; Wed, 2 May 2007 13:33:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l42KWqYw012242; Wed, 2 May 2007 21:32:54 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JHF0061VL2RED00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 02 May 2007 14:32:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from eastmail4bur.east.Sun.COM ([129.148.13.1]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JHF00JD0L2FVIE0@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 02 May 2007 14:32:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from thunk.east.sun.com (thunk.East.Sun.COM [129.148.174.66]) by eastmail4bur.east.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l42KWbtO016351; Wed, 02 May 2007 16:32:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [IPv6:::1] (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by thunk.east.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l42KWXCk018148; Wed, 02 May 2007 16:32:33 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 02 May 2007 16:32:32 -0400 From: Bill Sommerfeld Subject: Re: PSARC 2007/235 Default shell environment: manual page subsystem In-reply-to: <4638E735.2070002@sun.com> To: Shells discussion Cc: Roland Mainz , PSARC-EXT@Sun.COM, Peter Tribble , Darren J Moffat Message-id: <1178137952.16848.70.camel@thunk> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.8.1.1 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <462F7B67.6070606@Sun.COM> <46312E4C.1020702@sun.com> <4632B411.9FC4D9C0@nrubsig.org> <4632BE39.3090805@sun.com> <4638DF74.82B988E8@nrubsig.org> <4638E735.2070002@sun.com> Status: RO Content-Length: 644 (Noise in subject line removed; case number added) On Wed, 2007-05-02 at 09:32 -1000, Joseph Kowalski wrote: > Summary about switching "more" to "less"... > > 1) less must not be a regression from more (currently identifies > as Asian lang. support, but maybe there is more). > > 2) I believe such a switch requires a Minor binding. > > Could other ARC members chime with opinions on the above two bullets? strong agreement on #1. weak agreement on #2 -- I believe that there may be ways to implement the "more" command using the "less" codebase that would be sufficiently compatible that I'd accept a Patch binding. From don.cragun@sun.com Thu May 3 10:38:32 2007 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l43HcWts021740 for ; Thu, 3 May 2007 10:38:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l43HbYTl003535; Thu, 3 May 2007 10:37:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JHH00I0F7MKS200@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Thu, 03 May 2007 10:37:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from spartan.SFBay.Sun.COM ([129.146.226.64]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JHH00IYA7MJCN00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Thu, 03 May 2007 10:37:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from spartan.SFBay.Sun.COM (spartan.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.226.64]) by spartan.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with SMTP id l43HbVWH001894; Thu, 03 May 2007 10:37:31 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 03 May 2007 10:37:31 -0700 (PDT) From: Don Cragun Subject: re: Default shell environment: manual page subsystem (PSARC/2007/235) To: John.Plocher@sun.com Cc: shell-discuss@opensolaris.org, PSARC-EXT@sun.com Reply-to: Don Cragun Message-id: <200705031737.l43HbVWH001894@spartan.SFBay.Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: dtmail 1.3.0 @(#)CDE Version 1.5.5 SunOS 5.9 sun4u sparc Content-type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-MD5: ujmCVVd7P+xxvqp3tEJYjg== X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 Status: RO Content-Length: 862 >Date: Thu, 03 May 2007 10:05:27 -0700 >From: John Plocher ... ... ... > >AFAICT, this is not about removing more(1) from the system, >but updating less(1) and setting up the man command to use >the new less(1) instead of more(1) if PAGER is not set. Not exactly. This case will cause PAGER to be set to /usr/bin/less. It will not change the man utility and will not change the mailx utility (both of which are specified by the standards to use $PAGER). > >If your shell startup script sets PAGER=/usr/bin/more, >you won't even be affected by this discussion. True; unless your shell startup script only sets PAGER if PAGER is unset. (This case sets PAGER as one of the very early steps in login shell invocation.) If you're using ksh*, $ENV can also override the way /etc/profile sets PAGER most of the time. - Don > > -John From carlsonj@phorcys.east.sun.com Thu May 3 11:14:01 2007 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l43IE1Mj023667 for ; Thu, 3 May 2007 11:14:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l43ID2aG002740; Thu, 3 May 2007 11:13:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JHH00K2T99Q7W00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Thu, 03 May 2007 11:13:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com ([129.148.174.143]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JHH00IDU99NCH20@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Thu, 03 May 2007 11:12:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l43ICwsY026748; Thu, 03 May 2007 14:12:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from carlsonj@localhost) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1/Submit) id l43ICwOP026745; Thu, 03 May 2007 14:12:58 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 03 May 2007 14:12:58 -0400 From: James Carlson Subject: Re: 2007/235 Default shell environment: manualpage subsystem In-reply-to: <4638E62D.92F4E3A2@nrubsig.org> To: Roland Mainz Cc: Peter Tribble , PSARC-EXT@sun.com, shell-discuss@opensolaris.org, Michelle Olson Message-id: <17978.9770.105064.736801@gargle.gargle.HOWL> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: VM 7.01 under Emacs 21.3.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <462F7B67.6070606@Sun.COM> <4630FBC2.2CFD5C73@nrubsig.org> <17968.64888.989719.834586@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <46310CFB.CE4D1763@nrubsig.org> <17970.27757.385798.543703@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4638E62D.92F4E3A2@nrubsig.org> Status: RO Content-Length: 1226 Roland Mainz writes: > > So, why produce a poor answer when a better one is possible? > > What about the resource "manpower" ? If I take on /usr/bin/man then I > want to do a complete overhaul of that thing and not a half solution. I don't see why fixing /usr/bin/man to do default searches in a more intelligent manner requires any other "overhaul" of the code. It looks like it may well be a fairly straightforward and independent improvement. > For example it makes me unhappy that the manual pages are in a > DocBook-like format but /usr/bin/man exposes zero features of Docbook to > the end-users (and the intermediate generation of troff files causes > trouble with tables, non-ASCII charatcers, transliteration, embedded > code examples etc.). Sure; there's plenty to be desired. I wouldn't suggest boiling away the ocean to get to it, though. I had though we were discussing the possible ways to get at the desired MANPATH=PATH behavior, not what the future may hold for man in general. -- James Carlson, Solaris Networking Sun Microsystems / 1 Network Drive 71.232W Vox +1 781 442 2084 MS UBUR02-212 / Burlington MA 01803-2757 42.496N Fax +1 781 442 1677 From schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de Thu May 3 13:50:36 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l43KoZpK000877 for ; Thu, 3 May 2007 13:50:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l43KnK26008733; Fri, 4 May 2007 04:49:34 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JHH00C01GILQ700@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Thu, 03 May 2007 14:49:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com ([192.18.98.36]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JHH00AT0GIHA710@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Thu, 03 May 2007 14:49:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay2.sun.com (relay2.sun.com [150.143.103.24] (may be forged)) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l43Kbd0N027093; Thu, 03 May 2007 20:49:28 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mms03es.sun.com ([150.143.104.54] [150.143.104.54]) by relay2.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-879947; Thu, 03 May 2007 20:49:28 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay4.sun.com (relay4.sun.com [150.143.103.74]) by mms03es.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-643044; Thu, 03 May 2007 20:49:28 +0000 (Z) Received: from mailhub.fokus.fraunhofer.de ([193.174.154.14] [193.174.154.14]) by relay4.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-7393282; Thu, 03 May 2007 20:49:28 +0000 (Z) Received: from burner.fokus.fraunhofer.de (burner [10.147.65.166]) by mailhub.fokus.fraunhofer.de (8.11.6p2/8.11.6) with ESMTP id l43KnMf06494; Thu, 03 May 2007 22:49:22 +0200 (MEST) Received: (from jes@localhost) by burner.fokus.fraunhofer.de (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/Submit) id l43Kms6x012856; Thu, 03 May 2007 22:48:54 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 03 May 2007 22:48:54 +0200 From: Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (Joerg Schilling) Subject: Re: [shell-discuss] Re: 2007/235 Default shell environment: manualpage subsystem In-reply-to: <17978.9770.105064.736801@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Sender: schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de To: shell-discuss@opensolaris.org, roland.mainz@nrubsig.org Cc: shell-discuss@opensolaris.org, PSARC-EXT@Sun.COM, peter.tribble@gmail.com, Michelle.Olson@Sun.COM Message-id: <463a4ab6.8P/lgLrh/GrpyAiB%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <462F7B67.6070606@Sun.COM> <4630FBC2.2CFD5C73@nrubsig.org> <17968.64888.989719.834586@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <46310CFB.CE4D1763@nrubsig.org> <17970.27757.385798.543703@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4638E62D.92F4E3A2@nrubsig.org> <17978.9770.105064.736801@gargle.gargle.HOWL> User-Agent: nail 11.22 3/20/05 Status: RO Content-Length: 1312 James Carlson wrote: > > For example it makes me unhappy that the manual pages are in a > > DocBook-like format but /usr/bin/man exposes zero features of Docbook to > > the end-users (and the intermediate generation of troff files causes > > trouble with tables, non-ASCII charatcers, transliteration, embedded > > code examples etc.). > > Sure; there's plenty to be desired. I wouldn't suggest boiling away > the ocean to get to it, though. I had though we were discussing the > possible ways to get at the desired MANPATH=PATH behavior, not what > the future may hold for man in general. The main problem is the quality of the content in Docbook format and the quality of the troff conversion. Given the fact that it is impossible for me to edit the Docbook variants of the man pages, I would vote for going back to the troff format which causes less troubles. BTW: For the MANPATH I would recommend to have a look ar HP-UX and the way it deals with shell environemt variables. Jörg -- EMail:joerg@schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin js@cs.tu-berlin.de (uni) schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily From Darren.Moffat@Sun.COM Fri May 4 02:57:33 2007 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l449vXnF025825 for ; Fri, 4 May 2007 02:57:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l449uYic009791 for <@newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com:PSARC-EXT@sun.com>; Fri, 4 May 2007 02:56:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JHI00201GY9SA00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Fri, 04 May 2007 03:56:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: from gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com ([129.156.42.6]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JHI001G1GY89300@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Fri, 04 May 2007 03:56:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: from d1-emea-09.sun.com ([192.18.2.119]) by gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l449uVcT020010 for ; Fri, 04 May 2007 09:56:31 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-emea-09.sun.com by d1-emea-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JHI00F01GTM1M00@d1-emea-09.sun.com> (original mail from Darren.Moffat@Sun.COM) for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Fri, 04 May 2007 10:56:31 +0100 (BST) Received: from [129.156.173.21] by d1-emea-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JHI000G5GY6CR10@d1-emea-09.sun.com>; Fri, 04 May 2007 10:56:31 +0100 (BST) Date: Fri, 04 May 2007 10:56:30 +0100 From: Darren J Moffat Subject: Re: [shell-discuss] Re: 2007/235 Default shell environment: manualpage subsystem In-reply-to: <463a4ab6.8P/lgLrh/GrpyAiB%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> Sender: Darren.Moffat@Sun.COM To: Joerg Schilling Cc: shell-discuss@opensolaris.org, roland.mainz@nrubsig.org, PSARC-EXT@Sun.COM, peter.tribble@gmail.com, Michelle.Olson@Sun.COM Message-id: <463B034E.9080402@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <462F7B67.6070606@Sun.COM> <4630FBC2.2CFD5C73@nrubsig.org> <17968.64888.989719.834586@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <46310CFB.CE4D1763@nrubsig.org> <17970.27757.385798.543703@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4638E62D.92F4E3A2@nrubsig.org> <17978.9770.105064.736801@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <463a4ab6.8P/lgLrh/GrpyAiB%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0b2 (X11/20070326) Status: RO Content-Length: 187 Joerg Schilling wrote: > BTW: For the MANPATH I would recommend to have a look ar HP-UX and the > way it deals with shell environemt variables. So what does it do ? -- Darren J Moffat From schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de Fri May 4 03:04:13 2007 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l44A4D7V025984 for ; Fri, 4 May 2007 03:04:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l44A3C7F011194; Fri, 4 May 2007 03:03:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JHI00M0TH9CJV00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Fri, 04 May 2007 03:03:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sca-ea-mail-3.sun.com ([192.18.43.21]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JHI00LKSH9AVC00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Fri, 04 May 2007 03:03:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay41i.sun.com ([192.5.209.70]) by sca-ea-mail-3.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l44A1OCX016395; Fri, 04 May 2007 10:03:10 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mms49es.sun.com ([160.41.221.233] [160.41.221.233]) by relay41i.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-146685; Fri, 04 May 2007 10:03:10 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay41i.sun.com ([192.5.209.70] [192.5.209.70]) by mms49es.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-488628; Fri, 04 May 2007 10:03:09 +0000 (Z) Received: from mailhub.fokus.fraunhofer.de ([193.174.154.14] [193.174.154.14]) by relay4i.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-883783; Fri, 04 May 2007 10:03:09 +0000 (Z) Received: from burner.fokus.fraunhofer.de (burner [10.147.65.166]) by mailhub.fokus.fraunhofer.de (8.11.6p2/8.11.6) with ESMTP id l44A2xf16768; Fri, 04 May 2007 12:02:59 +0200 (MEST) Received: (from jes@localhost) by burner.fokus.fraunhofer.de (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/Submit) id l44A2U0V013210; Fri, 04 May 2007 12:02:30 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 04 May 2007 12:02:30 +0200 From: Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (Joerg Schilling) Subject: Re: [shell-discuss] Re: 2007/235 Default shell environment: manualpage subsystem In-reply-to: <463B034E.9080402@Sun.COM> Sender: schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de To: Darren.Moffat@sun.com Cc: shell-discuss@opensolaris.org, roland.mainz@nrubsig.org, PSARC-EXT@sun.com, peter.tribble@gmail.com, Michelle.Olson@sun.com Message-id: <463b04b6.Nhj4H/DktFXwN3iP%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <462F7B67.6070606@Sun.COM> <4630FBC2.2CFD5C73@nrubsig.org> <17968.64888.989719.834586@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <46310CFB.CE4D1763@nrubsig.org> <17970.27757.385798.543703@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4638E62D.92F4E3A2@nrubsig.org> <17978.9770.105064.736801@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <463a4ab6.8P/lgLrh/GrpyAiB%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <463B034E.9080402@Sun.COM> User-Agent: nail 11.22 3/20/05 Status: RO Content-Length: 617 Darren J Moffat wrote: > Joerg Schilling wrote: > > BTW: For the MANPATH I would recommend to have a look ar HP-UX and the > > way it deals with shell environemt variables. > > So what does it do ? There is a set of modular shell scripts that help to add PATH and MANPATH components in sync. Jörg -- EMail:joerg@schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin js@cs.tu-berlin.de (uni) schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily From Darren.Moffat@sun.com Fri May 4 03:17:09 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l44AH8cA026629 for ; Fri, 4 May 2007 03:17:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l44AG3TL020124 for <@newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com:PSARC-EXT@sun.com>; Fri, 4 May 2007 18:16:08 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JHI00513HUV2G00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Fri, 04 May 2007 04:16:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com ([129.156.42.5]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JHI001ZDHUL8U00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Fri, 04 May 2007 04:15:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from d1-emea-09.sun.com (d1-emea-09.sun.com [192.18.2.119]) by gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l44AFvLL022125 for ; Fri, 04 May 2007 10:15:57 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-emea-09.sun.com by d1-emea-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JHI00F01HTTEA00@d1-emea-09.sun.com> (original mail from Darren.Moffat@Sun.COM) for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Fri, 04 May 2007 11:15:57 +0100 (BST) Received: from [129.156.173.21] by d1-emea-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JHI000K3HUDCR10@d1-emea-09.sun.com> for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Fri, 04 May 2007 11:15:50 +0100 (BST) Date: Fri, 04 May 2007 11:15:49 +0100 From: Darren J Moffat Subject: PSARC/2007/235 Default shell environment: manual page subsystem In-reply-to: <20070504045537.GB5001@Sun.COM> Sender: Darren.Moffat@sun.com To: PSARC-EXT@sun.com Cc: shell-discuss@opensolaris.org Message-id: <463B07D5.10807@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <46312E4C.1020702@sun.com> <4632B411.9FC4D9C0@nrubsig.org> <46334f71.Fspbbj2lxSDxYvlQ%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <4634E881.7020303@sun.com> <4639e213.HxGcPKKZCCfnNpOr%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <463a071f.riHD0ricfsQYHFDG%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <463A1657.5070504@Sun.Com> <463a44da.yugUJHFxs2nAKwvB%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <463AB26D.5040209@sun.com> <20070504045537.GB5001@Sun.COM> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0b2 (X11/20070326) Status: RO Content-Length: 532 The timer for this case was extended by one week, the timer now expires on Wednesday 9th May 2007. A point or two of order: Please keep comments specific to the proposal under review. Please keep the feedback technical: the following are good: change x causes a regression change x is incomplete change x has a security problem change x won't work with the foo part of the system the following aren't relevant for architecture review: I prefer y over x thing x that is unrelated should be done first -- Darren J Moffat From jek3@sun.com Fri May 4 18:42:14 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l451gDaS028001 for ; Fri, 4 May 2007 18:42:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l451f8KD025133; Sat, 5 May 2007 09:41:11 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JHJ00201OOMFB00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Fri, 04 May 2007 18:41:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com ([129.146.17.63]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JHJ00H60OOMGNF0@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Fri, 04 May 2007 18:41:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [129.150.12.53] (vpn-129-150-12-53.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.12.53]) by jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l451f4qH615396; Fri, 04 May 2007 18:41:05 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 04 May 2007 15:40:43 -1000 From: Joseph Kowalski Subject: Re: [shell-discuss] Re: 2007/235 Default shell environment: manualpage subsystem In-reply-to: <463b04b6.Nhj4H/DktFXwN3iP%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> To: Joerg Schilling Cc: Darren.Moffat@sun.com, shell-discuss@opensolaris.org, roland.mainz@nrubsig.org, PSARC-EXT@sun.com, peter.tribble@gmail.com, Michelle.Olson@sun.com Message-id: <463BE09B.1020902@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <462F7B67.6070606@Sun.COM> <4630FBC2.2CFD5C73@nrubsig.org> <17968.64888.989719.834586@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <46310CFB.CE4D1763@nrubsig.org> <17970.27757.385798.543703@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4638E62D.92F4E3A2@nrubsig.org> <17978.9770.105064.736801@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <463a4ab6.8P/lgLrh/GrpyAiB%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <463B034E.9080402@Sun.COM> <463b04b6.Nhj4H/DktFXwN3iP%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060925) Status: RO Content-Length: 671 Joerg Schilling wrote: > Darren J Moffat wrote: > > >> Joerg Schilling wrote: >> >>> BTW: For the MANPATH I would recommend to have a look ar HP-UX and the >>> way it deals with shell environemt variables. >>> >> So what does it do ? >> > > There is a set of modular shell scripts that help to add PATH and MANPATH > components in sync. > > Jörg > Probably kinda cool and not unlike a suggestion made earlier in this thread, but these seem to address better ways of maintaining PATH/MANPATH coherence. I thought this proposal was just about the initial value and we've taken interesting digressions from there. - jek3 From jek3@sun.com Fri May 4 18:54:33 2007 Received: from newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (newsunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.245]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l451sX7h028681 for ; Fri, 4 May 2007 18:54:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l451rWa4003465; Fri, 4 May 2007 19:53:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JHJ00501P989R00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Fri, 04 May 2007 19:53:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: from jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com ([129.146.17.63]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JHJ00BJ6P97P880@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Fri, 04 May 2007 19:53:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [129.150.12.53] (vpn-129-150-12-53.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.12.53]) by jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l451rUum616649; Fri, 04 May 2007 18:53:31 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 04 May 2007 15:53:10 -1000 From: Joseph Kowalski Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/235 Default shell environment: manual page subsystem In-reply-to: <463B07D5.10807@Sun.COM> To: Darren J Moffat Cc: PSARC-EXT@sun.com, shell-discuss@opensolaris.org Message-id: <463BE386.9080909@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <46312E4C.1020702@sun.com> <4632B411.9FC4D9C0@nrubsig.org> <46334f71.Fspbbj2lxSDxYvlQ%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <4634E881.7020303@sun.com> <4639e213.HxGcPKKZCCfnNpOr%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <463a071f.riHD0ricfsQYHFDG%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <463A1657.5070504@Sun.Com> <463a44da.yugUJHFxs2nAKwvB%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <463AB26D.5040209@sun.com> <20070504045537.GB5001@Sun.COM> <463B07D5.10807@Sun.COM> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060925) Status: RO Content-Length: 1466 Darren J Moffat wrote: > A point or two of order: > > Please keep comments specific to the proposal under review. > Please keep the feedback technical: > > the following are good: > change x causes a regression > change x is incomplete > change x has a security problem > change x won't work with the foo part of the system > > the following aren't relevant for architecture review: > I prefer y over x > thing x that is unrelated should be done first > Unfortunately, we seem to have a "I want to change x to y because I prefer x to y" proposal. If Darren would accept "I think the majority of OpenSolaris customers would prefer y over x", we can hit delete now. I believe that you can't make less a fully upward compatible replacement for more, if for no other reason than the EOF handling - that's just the way each one is. Hence. it *must* be a discussion of styles. Is more broken? No. Is less broken? (Maybe - faulty i18n, but lets ignore this) Is man broken? No. I've tried to focus the choice away from personal preference to an assessment of what would provide the "greater good" for the majority of the product consumers. I've failed, but even if it were such an assessment, its still a preference. Sorry to say, I think the popularity contest between more and less has been much closer to being "customer base" focused than the PS1 discussion which seems to be nothing but personal preferences. - sigh, - jek3 From roland.mainz@nrubsig.org Fri May 4 19:14:20 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l452EJ5u029083 for ; Fri, 4 May 2007 19:14:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l452DGkf015546; Sat, 5 May 2007 03:13:19 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JHJ00401Q676F00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Fri, 04 May 2007 19:13:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.98.31]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JHJ002LKQ66I830@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Fri, 04 May 2007 19:13:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay44i.sun.com ([192.5.209.118]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l452DI5E027085; Sat, 05 May 2007 02:13:18 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mms48es.sun.com ([160.41.221.231] [160.41.221.231]) by relay44i.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-555020; Sat, 05 May 2007 02:13:18 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay42i.sun.com ([192.5.209.72] [192.5.209.72]) by mms48es.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-957972; Sat, 05 May 2007 02:13:18 +0000 (Z) Received: from mail-in-12.arcor-online.net ([151.189.21.52] [151.189.21.52]) by relay4i.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-4263099; Sat, 05 May 2007 02:13:17 +0000 (Z) Received: from mail-in-14-z2.arcor-online.net (mail-in-14-z2.arcor-online.net [151.189.8.31]) by mail-in-12.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CD164CB8C; Sat, 05 May 2007 04:13:17 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mail-in-08.arcor-online.net (mail-in-08.arcor-online.net [151.189.21.48]) by mail-in-14-z2.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24F8F100CE; Sat, 05 May 2007 04:13:17 +0200 (CEST) Received: from jupiterb48.nrubsig.org (dslb-084-059-002-154.pools.arcor-ip.net [84.59.2.154]) by mail-in-08.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7B1C2BAEF7; Sat, 05 May 2007 04:13:16 +0200 (CEST) Received: from nrubsig.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by jupiterb48.nrubsig.org (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l452DEON001548; Sat, 05 May 2007 04:13:15 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sat, 05 May 2007 04:13:14 +0200 From: Roland Mainz Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/235 Default shell environment: manual page subsystem Sender: gisburn@jupiterb48.nrubsig.org To: Joseph Kowalski Cc: Darren J Moffat , PSARC-EXT@sun.com, shell-discuss@opensolaris.org Message-id: <463BE83A.52F64EC0@nrubsig.org> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.11 sun4u) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <46312E4C.1020702@sun.com> <4632B411.9FC4D9C0@nrubsig.org> <46334f71.Fspbbj2lxSDxYvlQ%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <4634E881.7020303@sun.com> <4639e213.HxGcPKKZCCfnNpOr%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <463a071f.riHD0ricfsQYHFDG%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <463A1657.5070504@Sun.Com> <463a44da.yugUJHFxs2nAKwvB%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <463AB26D.5040209@sun.com> <20070504045537.GB5001@Sun.COM> <463B07D5.10807@Sun.COM> <463BE386.9080909@sun.com> Status: RO Content-Length: 2679 Joseph Kowalski wrote: > Darren J Moffat wrote: > > A point or two of order: > > > > Please keep comments specific to the proposal under review. > > Please keep the feedback technical: > > > > the following are good: > > change x causes a regression > > change x is incomplete > > change x has a security problem > > change x won't work with the foo part of the system > > > > the following aren't relevant for architecture review: > > I prefer y over x > > thing x that is unrelated should be done first > > > Unfortunately, we seem to have a "I want to change x to y because I > prefer x to y" proposal. > > If Darren would accept "I think the majority of OpenSolaris customers > would prefer y over x", we can hit delete now. > > I believe that you can't make less a fully upward compatible replacement > for more, if for no other reason than the EOF handling - that's just the > way each one is. Erm... doesn't /usr/xpg4/bin/more behave the same way as "less" in this case ? > Hence. it *must* be a discussion of styles. > > Is more broken? No. > > Is less broken? (Maybe - faulty i18n, but lets ignore this) Erm, /usr/bin/more is not CSI-enabled while "less" handles this at least partially correct. > Is man broken? No. > > I've tried to focus the choice away from personal preference to an > assessment of what would provide the "greater good" for the majority of > the product consumers. I've failed, but even if it were such an > assessment, its still a preference. Somewhere in my drafts/-folder is an email which tries to answer that... > Sorry to say, I think the popularity contest between more and less has > been much closer to being "customer base" focused than the PS1 > discussion which seems to be nothing but personal preferences. The proposal for a "better" _default_ PS1 is an attempt to get answers for questions which are asked often by beginners, e.g. - Where am I (in the filesystem) ? - On which machine am I logged-in ? - Who am I (= which account) ? These are three questions which many beginners need for navigation on machines (BTW: Small experiement: Setting the prompt to "$ " makes "pwd" and "hostname" very popular per accounting statistics...) and it seems that at least SuSE Linux, Ubuntu, Debian 4.0 and our little site default to this PS1 setting. The proposal does not try to prevent people to use their own prompt setting, e.g. everyone can override the defaults in his/her own personal ~/.bashrc or ~/.kshrc file. ---- Bye, Roland -- __ . . __ (o.\ \/ /.o) roland.mainz@nrubsig.org \__\/\/__/ MPEG specialist, C&&JAVA&&Sun&&Unix programmer /O /==\ O\ TEL +49 641 7950090 (;O/ \/ \O;) From roland.mainz@nrubsig.org Fri May 4 20:17:20 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l453HJG5000783 for ; Fri, 4 May 2007 20:17:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l453GBVr011104; Sat, 5 May 2007 11:16:16 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JHJ00E01T33AE00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Fri, 04 May 2007 21:16:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sca-ea-mail-3.sun.com ([192.18.43.21]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JHJ00BT8T33P8A0@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Fri, 04 May 2007 21:16:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay1.sun.com (relay1.sun.com [150.143.103.14] (may be forged)) by sca-ea-mail-3.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l4538sku022412; Sat, 05 May 2007 03:16:14 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mms04es.sun.com ([150.143.104.74] [150.143.104.74]) by relay1.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-1016738; Sat, 05 May 2007 03:16:11 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay1.sun.com (relay1.sun.com [150.143.103.14]) by mms04es.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-1295419; Sat, 05 May 2007 03:16:11 +0000 (Z) Received: from mail-in-04.arcor-online.net ([151.189.21.44] [151.189.21.44]) by relay1.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-7613033; Sat, 05 May 2007 03:16:11 +0000 (Z) Received: from mail-in-01-z2.arcor-online.net (mail-in-12-z2.arcor-online.net [151.189.8.29]) by mail-in-04.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC0831803D0; Sat, 05 May 2007 05:16:10 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mail-in-03.arcor-online.net (mail-in-03.arcor-online.net [151.189.21.43]) by mail-in-01-z2.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B04B8279452; Sat, 05 May 2007 05:16:10 +0200 (CEST) Received: from jupiterb48.nrubsig.org (dslb-084-059-002-154.pools.arcor-ip.net [84.59.2.154]) by mail-in-03.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 656FA495C; Sat, 05 May 2007 05:16:10 +0200 (CEST) Received: from nrubsig.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by jupiterb48.nrubsig.org (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l453G8lq001576; Sat, 05 May 2007 05:16:08 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sat, 05 May 2007 05:16:08 +0200 From: Roland Mainz Subject: Re: [shell-discuss] Re: 2007/235 Default shell environment:manualpage subsystem Sender: gisburn@jupiterb48.nrubsig.org To: Joerg Schilling Cc: Darren.Moffat@sun.com, shell-discuss@opensolaris.org, PSARC-EXT@sun.com, peter.tribble@gmail.com, Michelle.Olson@sun.com Message-id: <463BF6F8.2C5E70D2@nrubsig.org> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.11 sun4u) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <462F7B67.6070606@Sun.COM> <4630FBC2.2CFD5C73@nrubsig.org> <17968.64888.989719.834586@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <46310CFB.CE4D1763@nrubsig.org> <17970.27757.385798.543703@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4638E62D.92F4E3A2@nrubsig.org> <17978.9770.105064.736801@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <463a4ab6.8P/lgLrh/GrpyAiB%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <463B034E.9080402@Sun.COM> <463b04b6.Nhj4H/DktFXwN3iP%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> Status: RO Content-Length: 634 Joerg Schilling wrote: > Darren J Moffat wrote: > > Joerg Schilling wrote: > > > BTW: For the MANPATH I would recommend to have a look ar HP-UX and the > > > way it deals with shell environemt variables. > > > > So what does it do ? > > There is a set of modular shell scripts that help to add PATH and MANPATH > components in sync. ... which is AFAIK the same as my alternative proposal with the "pathtomanpath" script... ---- Bye, Roland -- __ . . __ (o.\ \/ /.o) roland.mainz@nrubsig.org \__\/\/__/ MPEG specialist, C&&JAVA&&Sun&&Unix programmer /O /==\ O\ TEL +49 641 7950090 (;O/ \/ \O;) From roland.mainz@nrubsig.org Fri May 4 20:58:41 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l453we3s002024 for ; Fri, 4 May 2007 20:58:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l453vZ5x019054; Sat, 5 May 2007 11:57:39 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JHJ00I0FV00LY00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Fri, 04 May 2007 21:57:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.98.43]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JHJ00BZTV00PGC0@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Fri, 04 May 2007 21:57:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay3.sun.com (relay3.sun.com [150.143.103.54] (may be forged)) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l453v2Th001269; Sat, 05 May 2007 03:57:36 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mms04es.sun.com ([150.143.104.74] [150.143.104.74]) by relay3.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-1018189; Sat, 05 May 2007 03:57:22 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay02i.sun.com (ip72.net150143-60.block3.us.syntegra.com [150.143.60.72]) by mms04es.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-1319424; Sat, 05 May 2007 03:57:22 +0000 (Z) Received: from mail-in-11.arcor-online.net ([151.189.21.51] [151.189.21.51]) by relay0i.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-4252043; Sat, 05 May 2007 03:57:22 +0000 (Z) Received: from mail-in-01-z2.arcor-online.net (mail-in-11-z2.arcor-online.net [151.189.8.28]) by mail-in-11.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A36E913297; Sat, 05 May 2007 05:57:21 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mail-in-03.arcor-online.net (mail-in-03.arcor-online.net [151.189.21.43]) by mail-in-01-z2.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 948D9346ABA; Sat, 05 May 2007 05:57:21 +0200 (CEST) Received: from jupiterb48.nrubsig.org (dslb-084-059-002-154.pools.arcor-ip.net [84.59.2.154]) by mail-in-03.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66D8A83BE1; Sat, 05 May 2007 05:57:21 +0200 (CEST) Received: from nrubsig.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by jupiterb48.nrubsig.org (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l453vJW0001602; Sat, 05 May 2007 05:57:19 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sat, 05 May 2007 05:57:19 +0200 From: Roland Mainz Subject: DocBook vs. troff for manual pages... / was: Re: [shell-discuss] Re: 2007/235 Default shell environment:manualpage subsystem Sender: gisburn@jupiterb48.nrubsig.org To: Joerg Schilling Cc: shell-discuss@opensolaris.org, PSARC-EXT@sun.com, peter.tribble@gmail.com, Michelle.Olson@sun.com Message-id: <463C009F.5F126B91@nrubsig.org> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.11 sun4u) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <462F7B67.6070606@Sun.COM> <4630FBC2.2CFD5C73@nrubsig.org> <17968.64888.989719.834586@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <46310CFB.CE4D1763@nrubsig.org> <17970.27757.385798.543703@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4638E62D.92F4E3A2@nrubsig.org> <17978.9770.105064.736801@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <463a4ab6.8P/lgLrh/GrpyAiB%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> Status: RO Content-Length: 1465 Joerg Schilling wrote: > James Carlson wrote: > > > For example it makes me unhappy that the manual pages are in a > > > DocBook-like format but /usr/bin/man exposes zero features of Docbook to > > > the end-users (and the intermediate generation of troff files causes > > > trouble with tables, non-ASCII charatcers, transliteration, embedded > > > code examples etc.). > > > > Sure; there's plenty to be desired. I wouldn't suggest boiling away > > the ocean to get to it, though. I had though we were discussing the > > possible ways to get at the desired MANPATH=PATH behavior, not what > > the future may hold for man in general. > > The main problem is the quality of the content in Docbook format > and the quality of the troff conversion. > > Given the fact that it is impossible for me to edit the Docbook variants of > the man pages, I would vote for going back to the troff format which > causes less troubles. Slightly offtopic: Erm, I can create and edit SolBook+DocBook documents without problems and it's not difficult to learn... You may prefer troff but I think that BookBook+SolBook is far superior in this case because it is a markup for the content and not for the layout. Going back to troff would be a _huge_ step backwards... ---- Bye, Roland -- __ . . __ (o.\ \/ /.o) roland.mainz@nrubsig.org \__\/\/__/ MPEG specialist, C&&JAVA&&Sun&&Unix programmer /O /==\ O\ TEL +49 641 7950090 (;O/ \/ \O;) From jek3@sun.com Fri May 4 21:31:46 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l454VjYX002703 for ; Fri, 4 May 2007 21:31:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l454Uc9H025023; Sat, 5 May 2007 12:30:44 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JHJ00M03WJ33000@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Fri, 04 May 2007 22:30:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com ([129.146.17.63]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JHJ00BIRWJ3P8D0@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Fri, 04 May 2007 22:30:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [129.150.12.53] (vpn-129-150-12-53.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.12.53]) by jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l454UWA8631011; Fri, 04 May 2007 21:30:33 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 04 May 2007 18:30:11 -1000 From: Joseph Kowalski Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/235 Default shell environment: manual page subsystem In-reply-to: <463BE83A.52F64EC0@nrubsig.org> To: Roland Mainz Cc: Darren J Moffat , PSARC-EXT@sun.com, shell-discuss@opensolaris.org Message-id: <463C0853.6010606@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <46312E4C.1020702@sun.com> <4632B411.9FC4D9C0@nrubsig.org> <46334f71.Fspbbj2lxSDxYvlQ%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <4634E881.7020303@sun.com> <4639e213.HxGcPKKZCCfnNpOr%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <463a071f.riHD0ricfsQYHFDG%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <463A1657.5070504@Sun.Com> <463a44da.yugUJHFxs2nAKwvB%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <463AB26D.5040209@sun.com> <20070504045537.GB5001@Sun.COM> <463B07D5.10807@Sun.COM> <463BE386.9080909@sun.com> <463BE83A.52F64EC0@nrubsig.org> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060925) Status: RO Content-Length: 906 Roland Mainz wrote: >> I believe that you can't make less a fully upward compatible replacement >> for more, if for no other reason than the EOF handling - that's just the >> way each one is. >> > > Erm... doesn't /usr/xpg4/bin/more behave the same way as "less" in this > case ? > Does it matter? /usr/xpg4/bin/more is not the current default. For all I know, this could be the reason we have two versions of more. >> Hence. it *must* be a discussion of styles. >> >> Is more broken? No. >> >> Is less broken? (Maybe - faulty i18n, but lets ignore this) >> > > Erm, /usr/bin/more is not CSI-enabled while "less" handles this at least > partially correct. > OK. How about: Is more broken? Yes Is less broken? Yes The only question is if less is a regression from more (one of Darren's allowed comments). (Discussion about PS1 deleted. Wrong thread. IMHO, nothing new.) - jek3 From schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de Sat May 5 03:19:01 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l45AJ0Qx012840 for ; Sat, 5 May 2007 03:19:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l45AHvf7018694; Sat, 5 May 2007 11:18:00 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JHK00301CLZST00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Sat, 05 May 2007 03:17:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.98.31]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JHK00HWXCLY6950@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Sat, 05 May 2007 03:17:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay44i.sun.com ([192.5.209.118]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l45AHwwE010403; Sat, 05 May 2007 10:17:58 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mms49es.sun.com ([160.41.221.233] [160.41.221.233]) by relay44i.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-563459; Sat, 05 May 2007 10:17:58 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay44i.sun.com ([192.5.209.118] [192.5.209.118]) by mms49es.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-1164369; Sat, 05 May 2007 10:17:57 +0000 (Z) Received: from mailhub.fokus.fraunhofer.de ([193.174.154.14] [193.174.154.14]) by relay4i.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-4369173; Sat, 05 May 2007 10:17:57 +0000 (Z) Received: from burner.fokus.fraunhofer.de (burner [10.147.65.166]) by mailhub.fokus.fraunhofer.de (8.11.6p2/8.11.6) with ESMTP id l45AHqf22811; Sat, 05 May 2007 12:17:52 +0200 (MEST) Received: (from jes@localhost) by burner.fokus.fraunhofer.de (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/Submit) id l45AHLT0013896; Sat, 05 May 2007 12:17:21 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sat, 05 May 2007 12:17:21 +0200 From: Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (Joerg Schilling) Subject: Re: DocBook vs. troff for manual pages... / was: Re: [shell-discuss] Re: 2007/235 Default shell environment:manualpage subsystem In-reply-to: <463C009F.5F126B91@nrubsig.org> Sender: schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de To: roland.mainz@nrubsig.org Cc: shell-discuss@opensolaris.org, PSARC-EXT@sun.com, peter.tribble@gmail.com, Michelle.Olson@sun.com Message-id: <463c59b1.qLaW43Tsg6wikwGl%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <462F7B67.6070606@Sun.COM> <4630FBC2.2CFD5C73@nrubsig.org> <17968.64888.989719.834586@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <46310CFB.CE4D1763@nrubsig.org> <17970.27757.385798.543703@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4638E62D.92F4E3A2@nrubsig.org> <17978.9770.105064.736801@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <463a4ab6.8P/lgLrh/GrpyAiB%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <463C009F.5F126B91@nrubsig.org> User-Agent: nail 11.22 3/20/05 Status: RO Content-Length: 659 Roland Mainz wrote: > > Given the fact that it is impossible for me to edit the Docbook variants of > > the man pages, I would vote for going back to the troff format which > > causes less troubles. > > Slightly offtopic: > Erm, I can create and edit SolBook+DocBook documents without problems > and it's not difficult to learn... I know of no software that allows me to edit these file and that comes with OpenSolaris. > You may prefer troff but I think that BookBook+SolBook is far superior > in this case because it is a markup for the content and not for the > layout. Going back to troff would be a _huge_ step backwards... From all what I did see before, it is worse than troff as there are Status: RO troff macros for man pages that allow to use only a few easy to identify constructs for structurizing man pages. If SolBook was OK, then is was possible to convert the format back to an editable troff version without loss, but this is obviously not the case. BTW: did yu ever try to enhance one of the man pages originated by Sun? It is a nightmare! P.S. We did decide already some time ago that man pages for OSS that is not owned by Sun stays in troff format. Jörg -- EMail:joerg@schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin js@cs.tu-berlin.de (uni) schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily From Darren.Moffat@sun.com Mon May 14 05:32:19 2007 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4ECWJYH004440 for ; Mon, 14 May 2007 05:32:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4ECV7tX027938 for <@newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com:PSARC-EXT@sun.com>; Mon, 14 May 2007 05:31:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JI100C0D6RZNJ00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@Sun.COM); Mon, 14 May 2007 06:31:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: from gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com ([129.156.42.6]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JI100AVQ6RYAE10@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@Sun.COM); Mon, 14 May 2007 06:31:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: from d1-emea-09.sun.com ([192.18.2.119]) by gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l4ECVAtg016635 for ; Mon, 14 May 2007 12:31:10 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-emea-09.sun.com by d1-emea-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JI100J016KHH000@d1-emea-09.sun.com> (original mail from Darren.Moffat@Sun.COM) for PSARC-EXT@Sun.COM (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@Sun.COM); Mon, 14 May 2007 13:31:10 +0100 (BST) Received: from [129.156.173.21] by d1-emea-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JI100CMN6RX3B20@d1-emea-09.sun.com> for PSARC-EXT@Sun.COM (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@Sun.COM); Mon, 14 May 2007 13:31:10 +0100 (BST) Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 13:31:09 +0100 From: Darren J Moffat Subject: PSARC/2007/235 [derailed] Default shell environment: manual page subsystem Sender: Darren.Moffat@sun.com To: PSARC-EXT@sun.com Message-id: <4648568D.7040101@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0b2 (X11/20070326) Status: RO Content-Length: 814 This case was derailed at PSARC on Wednesday 9th May, since it was clear from the discussion that is was not reaching consensus and is deemed controversial to at least some members. The recommendation is to bring a full case to review covering all four of: 2007/233 Default shell environment: machine ksh93/bash environment 2007/234 Default shell environment: Skeleton user sh/ksh/ksh93/bash 2007/235 Default shell environment: manual page subsystem 2007/236 Default shell environment: TMPDIR There should be no further email discussion on this alias about these cases since they are no longer fast-tracks. The submitter and sponsor will arrange the next steps. The full case review should it happen will be an open review, details of how to attend will be sent if/when it is schedule. -- Darren J Moffat