From John.Fischer@sun.com Tue May 22 16:07:32 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4MN7Vb6015171 for ; Tue, 22 May 2007 16:07:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4MN69u9008228 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-EXT@sun.com>; Wed, 23 May 2007 07:06:17 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JIG00B01TIGOG00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Tue, 22 May 2007 16:06:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com ([192.18.98.34]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JIG009ZMTIFD010@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Tue, 22 May 2007 16:06:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fe-amer-02.sun.com ([192.18.108.176]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l4MN6Fr9026442 for ; Tue, 22 May 2007 23:06:15 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.mail-amer.sun.com by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JIG00E01T5A6500@mail-amer.sun.com> (original mail from John.Fischer@Sun.COM) for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Tue, 22 May 2007 17:06:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from 129.145.154.107 ([129.145.154.107]) by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JIG00J6CTIESVK2@mail-amer.sun.com> for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Tue, 22 May 2007 17:06:15 -0600 (MDT) Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 16:06:14 -0700 From: John Fischer Subject: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake Sender: John.Fischer@sun.com To: PSARC-EXT@sun.com Cc: Dermot McCluskey Reply-to: John.Fischer@sun.com Message-id: <1179875174.57981.65.camel@sr1-umpk-57> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.6.335 Content-type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Boundary_(ID_upOPHMIWGGq0CbCHfMJspw)" X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 Status: RO Content-Length: 5021 --Boundary_(ID_upOPHMIWGGq0CbCHfMJspw) Content-type: text/plain; charset=ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT All, I am sponsoring this fast track for Dermot McCluskey of the JDS - Gnome group from Dublin, Ireland. I have set the timeout for Tuesday May 29th, 2007. The case directory contains this proposal, and automake.info files. This project introduces GNU Automake versions 1.9.6 and 1.10 into Solaris. Both versions are deemed necessary as various JDS components which are based upon open source software require one or the other version. The versions are separated by using the version number (see the proposal for details). The project is requesting a Patch release binding. Thanks, John --Boundary_(ID_upOPHMIWGGq0CbCHfMJspw) Content-type: text/plain; charset=ASCII; name=proposal.txt Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: attachment; filename=proposal.txt GNU Automake 1. Summary This fast-track introduces GNU Automake, versions 1.9.6 and 1.10, into the Solaris WOS. Patch release binding is requested. 2. Discussion Automake is a utility for generating Makefiles and is very commonly used when building open-source software. It is often used in conjunction with other "auto tools" such as autoconf, autoheader and libtool to make it easier to build applications on different platforms. The two versions proposed here are included with the CBE tools for JDS, which are available for download from opensolaris.org. Version 1.9 of Automake is still explicitly required to build some JDS components. Therefore this proposal will provide 1.9.6 and the latest stable version, 1.10, which will be the default. It is normal practise for Linux distros to include multiple versions of Automake. For example, both Red Hat Enterprise Linux 4 and Fedora Core 6 install five separate versions by default. As Automake installs most of its files in version-suffixed sub-directories (eg /usr/share/automake-1.10) and as there are no shared object libraries included, this approach is considered safe. Due to the mutliple versions required and allowing for the possibility that further additional versions may be required in future, Automake will be delivered in two packages whose names indicate the version (ie SUNWgnu-automake-19 and SUNWgnu-automake-110). Automake is delivered as: - Two command-line programs, automake and aclocal. These Perl scripts will be installed in /usr/bin with version suffixes (eg automake-1.9) and with the unsuffixed name linking to the most recent version (eg aclocal -> aclocal-1.10). As future versions of Automake are integrated, these links should be changed to always point to the latest installed version. - A number of private scripts to be installed in /usr/share/automake-$VERSION/ - A private set of Perl modules to be installed in /usr/share/automake-$VERSION/Automake/ - A private set of Automake macros to be installed in /usr/share/automake-$VERSION/am/ - A private set of M4 macros to be installed in /usr/share/aclocal-$VERSION/ - A user manual in Info format (only for latest version) - A text file listing directories to search for macros: /usr/share/aclocal/dirlist (Note: aclocal dir is different from aclocal-$VERSION.) - Some demo files In addition, other components may install M4 macros to be used by aclocal when building yet other components which depend on them. The locations /usr/share/aclocal/ and /usr/sfw/share/aclocal/ are currently used by Solaris packages for this purpose. For example, SUNWgnome-base-libs-devel installs /usr/share/aclocal/gtk-2.0.m4. These directories may be specified by command-line options to aclocal, or by listing them in the `dirlist' file. dirlist will be installed with the single value: /usr/sfw/share/aclocal (/usr/share/aclocal and /usr/share/aclocal-$VERSION do not need to be specified). This file may be edited to add additional default directories. An earlier version of Automake (1.8.3) is currently available in the Solaris Companion CD (CCD). This proposal removes Automake from the CCD and adds it to the SFW consolidation. This proposal will install the utilities in /usr, as per the guidelines of PSARC/2007/047, /usr/gnu [1]. 3. Interfaces Exported Interfaces =================== SUNWgnu-automake-110 Uncommitted Package name SUNWgnu-automake-19 Uncommitted Package name /usr/bin/automake-1.10 Uncommitted Command /usr/bin/automake Uncommitted Symbolic link /usr/bin/aclocal-1.10 Uncommitted Command /usr/bin/aclocal Uncommitted Symbolic link /usr/bin/automake-1.9 Uncommitted Command /usr/bin/aclocal-1.9 Uncommitted Command /usr/share/info/automake.info Uncommitted Info document /usr/share/aclocal/dirlist Uncommitted Macro search paths 4. References [1] S. Hahn, B. Smaalders, and R. Orth, PSARC/2007/047: /usr/gnu ATTACHED MATERIALS automake.info automake.info-1 automake.info-2 --Boundary_(ID_upOPHMIWGGq0CbCHfMJspw)-- From Garrett.Damore@sun.com Tue May 22 16:27:34 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4MNRYRM016046 for ; Tue, 22 May 2007 16:27:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4MNQEWJ017910 for <@newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com:psarc-ext@sun.com>; Wed, 23 May 2007 00:26:20 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JIG00K01UFVDI00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Tue, 22 May 2007 17:26:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from nwk-ea-fw-1.sun.com ([10.4.134.5]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JIG00A8EUFUNNB0@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Tue, 22 May 2007 17:26:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from d1-sfbay-10.sun.com ([192.18.39.120]) by nwk-ea-fw-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l4MNQItq009568 for ; Tue, 22 May 2007 16:26:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-sfbay-10.sun.com by d1-sfbay-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JIG00M01UC4Y600@d1-sfbay-10.sun.com> (original mail from Garrett.Damore@Sun.COM) for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Tue, 22 May 2007 16:26:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.251.21] ([76.174.83.55]) by d1-sfbay-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JIG0061UUFUHA32@d1-sfbay-10.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Tue, 22 May 2007 16:26:18 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 16:24:59 -0700 From: "Garrett D'Amore" Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake In-reply-to: <1179875174.57981.65.camel@sr1-umpk-57> Sender: Garrett.Damore@sun.com To: John.Fischer@sun.com Cc: psarc-ext@sun.com, Dermot McCluskey Message-id: <46537BCB.3050004@sun.com> Organization: Sun Microsystems MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1179875174.57981.65.camel@sr1-umpk-57> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0b2 (X11/20070227) Status: RO Content-Length: 1974 I wonder if /usr/{bin,share} is truly the best place for this. These tools are developer tools, generally only useful to people developing certain software that has to be portable. (They aren't even really useful to people compiling software packages downloaded from the network... the whole point is that packages are supposed to ship with a prebuilt configure script.) There is little interest to end-users. If the JDS CBE needs these tools, then perhaps it should include them in its own tools package, much like we have /opt/onbld. (These tools are pretty small, too, so it really wouldn't impose much burden on JDS.) I don't think it is generally true that one should need these to build GNOME software from scratch; though admittedly its been a long time since I tried to install GNOME from source. In contrast, I'd far rather see other GNU tools/equivalents in /usr/bin. automake/autoconf just doesn't come very close to the top of that list. Given also that automake/autoconf change in incompatible ways frequently, it seems like there would be a lot of clutter in the /usr file system. I'd rather this clutter were tucked away somewhere ... Putting automake/autoconf in /usr/bin is sort of like putting /opt/onbld/bin/nightly in /usr/bin, IMO. Just my own 2c. - Garrett John Fischer wrote: > All, > > I am sponsoring this fast track for Dermot McCluskey > of the JDS - Gnome group from Dublin, Ireland. I have > set the timeout for Tuesday May 29th, 2007. The case > directory contains this proposal, and automake.info > files. > > This project introduces GNU Automake versions 1.9.6 > and 1.10 into Solaris. Both versions are deemed > necessary as various JDS components which are based > upon open source software require one or the other > version. The versions are separated by using the > version number (see the proposal for details). The > project is requesting a Patch release binding. > > Thanks, > > John > > > From alan.coopersmith@sun.com Tue May 22 16:33:23 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4MNXMUw016118 for ; Tue, 22 May 2007 16:33:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4MNVJfd014259 for <@sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com:psarc-ext@sun.com>; Wed, 23 May 2007 07:32:07 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JIG00A05UPG4K00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Tue, 22 May 2007 16:32:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sfbaymail1sca.SFBay.Sun.COM ([129.145.154.35]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JIG005HMUPFDD70@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Tue, 22 May 2007 16:32:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [129.146.108.211] (almas.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.108.211]) by sfbaymail1sca.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4MNW24a006078; Tue, 22 May 2007 16:32:02 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 16:32:02 -0700 From: Alan Coopersmith Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake In-reply-to: <46537BCB.3050004@sun.com> To: "Garrett D'Amore" Cc: John.Fischer@sun.com, psarc-ext@sun.com, Dermot McCluskey Message-id: <46537D72.8080009@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1179875174.57981.65.camel@sr1-umpk-57> <46537BCB.3050004@sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.0 (X11/20070423) Status: RO Content-Length: 1071 Garrett D'Amore wrote: > If the JDS CBE needs these tools, then perhaps it should include them in > its own tools package, much like we have /opt/onbld. (These tools are > pretty small, too, so it really wouldn't impose much burden on JDS.) That's what JDS has done for years - LSARC has advised it in the past to try to migrate more of the generally useful portions of the JDS CBE like this into the WOS so the effort can be used by more people. > I don't think it is generally true that one should need these to build > GNOME software from scratch; though admittedly its been a long time > since I tried to install GNOME from source. We need autoconf & automake when building the X packages for the places we've applied fixes/changes to the configure.ac and/or Makefile.am files. (Currently we use the versions from the JDS CBE, but I'd love to get them from the WOS instead to make it easier for others to replicate our build environment.) -- -Alan Coopersmith- alan.coopersmith@sun.com Sun Microsystems, Inc. - X Window System Engineering From Garrett.Damore@sun.com Tue May 22 16:37:39 2007 Received: from newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (newsunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.245]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4MNbcIc016169 for ; Tue, 22 May 2007 16:37:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4MNa7jt061564 for <@sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com:psarc-ext@sun.com>; Tue, 22 May 2007 17:36:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JIG00A07UWFC700@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Tue, 22 May 2007 16:36:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-ea-fw-1.sun.com ([10.4.134.5]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JIG005LBUWFDI60@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Tue, 22 May 2007 16:36:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d1-sfbay-09.sun.com ([192.18.39.119]) by nwk-ea-fw-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l4MNaFIN010594 for ; Tue, 22 May 2007 16:36:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-sfbay-09.sun.com by d1-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JIG00001USQNH00@d1-sfbay-09.sun.com> (original mail from Garrett.Damore@Sun.COM) for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Tue, 22 May 2007 16:36:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.251.21] ([76.174.83.55]) by d1-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JIG002UAUW5DHP8@d1-sfbay-09.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Tue, 22 May 2007 16:36:06 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 16:34:47 -0700 From: "Garrett D'Amore" Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake In-reply-to: <46537D72.8080009@sun.com> Sender: Garrett.Damore@sun.com To: Alan Coopersmith Cc: John.Fischer@sun.com, psarc-ext@sun.com, Dermot McCluskey Message-id: <46537E17.8050108@sun.com> Organization: Sun Microsystems MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1179875174.57981.65.camel@sr1-umpk-57> <46537BCB.3050004@sun.com> <46537D72.8080009@sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0b2 (X11/20070227) Status: RO Content-Length: 953 Alan Coopersmith wrote: > Garrett D'Amore wrote: >> If the JDS CBE needs these tools, then perhaps it should include them >> in its own tools package, much like we have /opt/onbld. (These tools >> are pretty small, too, so it really wouldn't impose much burden on JDS.) > > That's what JDS has done for years - LSARC has advised it in the past > to try to migrate more of the generally useful portions of the JDS CBE > like this into the WOS so the effort can be used by more people. For the record I wasn't complaining about integration into the WOS. I was complaining about namespace pollution in /usr/bin. :-) If there are other consumers for this besides JDS, then it does make sense to put them somewhere common. I wonder, though, if these various tools that we use shouldn't fall into a consolidation of their own; one that isn't normally installed by default, but which developers can easily download if they want it. -- Garrett From jek3@Sun.COM Tue May 22 16:41:18 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4MNfHxW016229 for ; Tue, 22 May 2007 16:41:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4MNdwG6016434; Wed, 23 May 2007 07:39:59 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JIG00L03V2KTO00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Tue, 22 May 2007 17:39:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: from jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com ([129.146.17.59]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JIG00ALLV2KNND0@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Tue, 22 May 2007 17:39:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [129.150.12.53] (vpn-129-150-12-53.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.12.53]) by jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l4MNdrtp421722; Tue, 22 May 2007 16:39:54 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 13:39:46 -1000 From: Joseph Kowalski Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake In-reply-to: <1179875174.57981.65.camel@sr1-umpk-57> To: John.Fischer@Sun.COM Cc: psarc-ext@Sun.COM, Dermot McCluskey Message-id: <46537F42.5090908@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1179875174.57981.65.camel@sr1-umpk-57> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060925) Status: RO Content-Length: 961 John Fischer wrote: > Automake is delivered as: > - Two command-line programs, automake and aclocal. > These Perl scripts will be installed in /usr/bin with version > suffixes (eg automake-1.9) and with the unsuffixed name linking > to the most recent version (eg aclocal -> aclocal-1.10). > As future versions of Automake are integrated, these links > should be changed to always point to the latest installed > version. > ... > 3. Interfaces > > Exported Interfaces > =================== ... > /usr/bin/automake Uncommitted Symbolic link > /usr/bin/aclocal Uncommitted Symbolic link > There seems to be a little conflict here. The Uncommitted implies to me that the link target can only change in a minor release, which seems to conflict with the statement above it. If the statement above is the true intent, I don't see a problem with the links being Volatile, so long as they are clearly documented that way. - jek3 From Nicolas.Williams@sun.com Tue May 22 16:41:28 2007 Received: from newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (newsunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.245]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4MNfSeO016262 for ; Tue, 22 May 2007 16:41:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4MNe48G062117; Tue, 22 May 2007 17:40:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JIG00L03V30UU00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Tue, 22 May 2007 17:40:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from binky.central.sun.com ([129.153.128.104]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JIG00A9IV30NRF0@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Tue, 22 May 2007 17:40:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from binky.central.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by binky.central.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l4MNcqBV025226; Tue, 22 May 2007 18:38:52 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from nw141292@localhost) by binky.central.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/Submit) id l4MNcqpg025225; Tue, 22 May 2007 18:38:52 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 18:38:52 -0500 From: Nicolas Williams Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake In-reply-to: <46537E17.8050108@sun.com> To: "Garrett D'Amore" Cc: Alan Coopersmith , John.Fischer@sun.com, psarc-ext@sun.com, Dermot McCluskey Message-id: <20070522233851.GD23226@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1179875174.57981.65.camel@sr1-umpk-57> <46537BCB.3050004@sun.com> <46537D72.8080009@sun.com> <46537E17.8050108@sun.com> X-Authentication-warning: binky.central.sun.com: nw141292 set sender to Nicolas.Williams@sun.com using -f User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.7i Status: RO Content-Length: 353 On Tue, May 22, 2007 at 04:34:47PM -0700, Garrett D'Amore wrote: > For the record I wasn't complaining about integration into the WOS. I > was complaining about namespace pollution in /usr/bin. :-) No, we should want this in /bin. Lots of folks build open source without being developers. cc, gcc, autoconf, make, gmake, ... all should be in /bin. From jek3@sun.com Tue May 22 16:47:28 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4MNlRuF016504 for ; Tue, 22 May 2007 16:47:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4MNk6bO018148; Wed, 23 May 2007 07:46:09 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JIG00F0FVCUUC00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Tue, 22 May 2007 16:46:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com ([129.146.17.63]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JIG009VYVCUD050@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Tue, 22 May 2007 16:46:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [129.150.12.53] (vpn-129-150-12-53.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.12.53]) by jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l4MNk4Mk423356; Tue, 22 May 2007 16:46:05 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 13:45:57 -1000 From: Joseph Kowalski Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake In-reply-to: <46537E17.8050108@sun.com> To: "Garrett D'Amore" Cc: Alan Coopersmith , John.Fischer@sun.com, psarc-ext@sun.com, Dermot McCluskey Message-id: <465380B5.1090904@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1179875174.57981.65.camel@sr1-umpk-57> <46537BCB.3050004@sun.com> <46537D72.8080009@sun.com> <46537E17.8050108@sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060925) Status: RO Content-Length: 582 Garrett D'Amore wrote: > I wonder, though, if these various tools that we use shouldn't fall > into a consolidation of their own; one that isn't normally installed > by default, but which developers can easily download if they want it. Consolidation doesn't enter into it. They are in packages of their own. We don't have the infrastructure for the "apt-get" easy download you propose. Quite a shame that is... :-( If it makes you rest any easier, I'd *guess* these only go into the "developer" and "all" Metaclusters, so they wouldn't appear on a "user" install. - jek3 From Paul.Jakma@Sun.COM Tue May 22 16:56:00 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4MNtxSF017091 for ; Tue, 22 May 2007 16:55:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4MNsido020037 for <@sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com:psarc-ext@sun.com>; Wed, 23 May 2007 07:54:45 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JIG00B01VR8BB00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Tue, 22 May 2007 16:54:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com ([129.156.42.5]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JIG005VIVR7DI70@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Tue, 22 May 2007 16:54:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d1-emea-09.sun.com (d1-emea-09.sun.com [192.18.2.119]) by gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l4MNshv1027137 for ; Tue, 22 May 2007 23:54:43 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-emea-09.sun.com by d1-emea-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JIG00201VNF5C00@d1-emea-09.sun.com> (original mail from Paul.Jakma@Sun.COM) for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 23 May 2007 00:54:43 +0100 (BST) Received: from melandri.lan ([62.6.163.68]) by d1-emea-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JIG00FYQVR5LJ10@d1-emea-09.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 23 May 2007 00:54:42 +0100 (BST) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 00:54:38 +0100 (IST) From: Paul Jakma Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake In-reply-to: <1179875174.57981.65.camel@sr1-umpk-57> Sender: Paul.Jakma@Sun.COM To: John Fischer Cc: psarc-ext@Sun.COM, Dermot McCluskey Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1179875174.57981.65.camel@sr1-umpk-57> Status: RO Content-Length: 1123 On Tue, 22 May 2007, John Fischer wrote: > This project introduces GNU Automake versions 1.9.6 and 1.10 into > Solaris. Both versions are deemed necessary as various JDS components > which are based upon open source software require one or the other > version. The versions are separated by using the version number (see > the proposal for details). The project is requesting a Patch release > binding. Why does automake need to be in the WOS? If you have patches to auto* files in JDS, you can just deliver the result of 'make dist' to your consolidation, surely? Presuming automake really does need to be in the WOS, then how come you don't also want to deliver autoconf and libtool? It seems slightly odd to deliver just one piece of the GNU build-system trinity to the WOS. That doesn't make much sense from a Solaris POV - sounds like you're scratching some arbitrary, present-day itch of the JDS-consolidation delivery process.. regards, -- Paul Jakma, Solaris Networking Sun Microsystems, Scotland http://opensolaris.org/os/project/quagga tel: EMEA x73150 / +44 15066 73150 From David.Comay@sun.com Tue May 22 17:04:08 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4N04763017294 for ; Tue, 22 May 2007 17:04:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4N028es025742; Wed, 23 May 2007 01:02:51 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JIG00H0TW4OOF00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Tue, 22 May 2007 17:02:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from izimbra.SFBay.Sun.COM ([129.146.226.141]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JIG009JAW4ND070@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Tue, 22 May 2007 17:02:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by izimbra.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l4N02l2H105934; Tue, 22 May 2007 17:02:47 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 17:02:47 -0700 (PDT) From: David.Comay@sun.com Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake In-reply-to: Sender: comay@izimbra.sfbay.sun.com To: Paul Jakma Cc: John Fischer , Dermot McCluskey , psarc-ext@sun.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1179875174.57981.65.camel@sr1-umpk-57> Status: RO Content-Length: 1240 > Why does automake need to be in the WOS? If you have patches to auto* files > in JDS, you can just deliver the result of 'make dist' to your consolidation, > surely? Because it's a common piece of development software in the open-source world and developers on OpenSolaris expect it to be there if OpenSolaris is going to be a platform of choice for their development. > Presuming automake really does need to be in the WOS, then how come you don't > also want to deliver autoconf and libtool? Those two tools are also on the list of tools to be integrated into OpenSolaris. This particular case just covers GNU automake but the others will be coming (soon.) > It seems slightly odd to deliver just one piece of the GNU build-system > trinity to the WOS. That doesn't make much sense from a Solaris POV - sounds > like you're scratching some arbitrary, present-day itch of the > JDS-consolidation delivery process.. The requirements of the JDS consolidation mirror those of many open source development projects out there today. Again, for OpenSolaris to become a Tier 1 platform for developers, we need to be making those tools available and they need to be delivered in the file system where developers can find them. dsc From Darren.Reed@sun.com Tue May 22 17:20:47 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4N0Kkgw017512 for ; Tue, 22 May 2007 17:20:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4N0JQmw000057 for <@newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com:psarc-ext@sun.com>; Wed, 23 May 2007 01:19:32 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JIG0030BWWI5800@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Tue, 22 May 2007 18:19:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sineb-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.19.6]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JIG00NZIWWG3E20@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Tue, 22 May 2007 18:19:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: from fe-apac-06.sun.com (fe-apac-06.sun.com [192.18.19.177] (may be forged)) by sineb-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l4N0JRPh021752 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 00:19:27 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.mail-apac.sun.com by mail-apac.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JIG00H01WV9ZE00@mail-apac.sun.com> (original mail from Darren.Reed@Sun.COM) for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 23 May 2007 08:19:27 +0800 (SGT) Received: from [129.146.106.55] by mail-apac.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JIG0024OWWD94Y3@mail-apac.sun.com>; Wed, 23 May 2007 08:19:27 +0800 (SGT) Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 17:19:24 -0700 From: Darren.Reed@sun.com Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake In-reply-to: Sender: Darren.Reed@sun.com To: David.Comay@sun.com Cc: Paul Jakma , John Fischer , Dermot McCluskey , psarc-ext@sun.com Message-id: <4653888C.7040505@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en-us, en X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1179875174.57981.65.camel@sr1-umpk-57> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; SunOS i86pc; en-US; rv:1.7) Gecko/20060120 Status: RO Content-Length: 842 David.Comay@Sun.COM wrote: >> Why does automake need to be in the WOS? If you have patches to auto* >> files in JDS, you can just deliver the result of 'make dist' to your >> consolidation, surely? > > > Because it's a common piece of development software in the open-source > world and developers on OpenSolaris expect it to be there if > OpenSolaris is going to be a platform of choice for their development. > >> Presuming automake really does need to be in the WOS, then how come >> you don't also want to deliver autoconf and libtool? > > > Those two tools are also on the list of tools to be integrated into > OpenSolaris. This particular case just covers GNU automake but the > others will be coming (soon.) Is there a bigger picture project that should be an umbrella case for automake, autoconf, libtool, (others?) ? Darren From Garrett.Damore@Sun.COM Tue May 22 20:50:58 2007 Received: from newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (newsunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.245]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4N3owxt019462 for ; Tue, 22 May 2007 20:50:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4N3na18028629 for <@newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com:psarc-ext@sun.com>; Tue, 22 May 2007 21:49:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JIH002036MWRE00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Tue, 22 May 2007 21:49:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from nwk-ea-fw-1.sun.com ([10.4.134.6]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JIH00NVA6MV3KD0@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Tue, 22 May 2007 21:49:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from d1-sfbay-09.sun.com ([192.18.39.119]) by nwk-ea-fw-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l4N3nhPa009755 for ; Tue, 22 May 2007 20:49:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-sfbay-09.sun.com by d1-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JIH009016MLQD00@d1-sfbay-09.sun.com> (original mail from Garrett.Damore@Sun.COM) for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Tue, 22 May 2007 20:49:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.251.21] ([76.174.83.55]) by d1-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JIH002T26MUDH9A@d1-sfbay-09.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Tue, 22 May 2007 20:49:43 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 20:48:25 -0700 From: "Garrett D'Amore" Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake In-reply-to: <20070522233851.GD23226@Sun.COM> Sender: Garrett.Damore@Sun.COM To: Nicolas Williams Cc: Alan Coopersmith , John.Fischer@Sun.COM, psarc-ext@Sun.COM, Dermot McCluskey Message-id: <4653B989.7060604@sun.com> Organization: Sun Microsystems MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1179875174.57981.65.camel@sr1-umpk-57> <46537BCB.3050004@sun.com> <46537D72.8080009@sun.com> <46537E17.8050108@sun.com> <20070522233851.GD23226@Sun.COM> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0b2 (X11/20070227) Status: RO Content-Length: 873 Nicolas Williams wrote: > On Tue, May 22, 2007 at 04:34:47PM -0700, Garrett D'Amore wrote: > >> For the record I wasn't complaining about integration into the WOS. I >> was complaining about namespace pollution in /usr/bin. :-) >> > > No, we should want this in /bin. Lots of folks build open source > without being developers. cc, gcc, autoconf, make, gmake, ... all > should be in /bin. > My point is that unlike gcc, cc, gmake, ... the automake/autoconf toolchain is _only_ needed by _developers_. Just building sources rarely requires automake/autoconf. By design, these tools are used to generate the configure script that end users run. The idea is that _only_ the developer/distributor is building the configure script, and end-users (and site admins, etc.) just _run_ configure to configure the source tree for compilation. -- Garrett From Nicolas.Williams@sun.com Tue May 22 21:03:52 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4N43pA8019844 for ; Tue, 22 May 2007 21:03:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4N42PoO020446; Wed, 23 May 2007 12:02:32 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JIH00K05787G300@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Tue, 22 May 2007 21:02:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from binky.central.sun.com ([129.153.128.104]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JIH004BT784DA70@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Tue, 22 May 2007 21:02:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from binky.central.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by binky.central.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l4N419Ej025455; Tue, 22 May 2007 23:01:09 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from nw141292@localhost) by binky.central.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/Submit) id l4N419vT025454; Tue, 22 May 2007 23:01:09 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 23:01:09 -0500 From: Nicolas Williams Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake In-reply-to: <4653B989.7060604@sun.com> To: "Garrett D'Amore" Cc: Alan Coopersmith , John.Fischer@sun.com, psarc-ext@sun.com, Dermot McCluskey Message-id: <20070523040108.GH23226@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1179875174.57981.65.camel@sr1-umpk-57> <46537BCB.3050004@sun.com> <46537D72.8080009@sun.com> <46537E17.8050108@sun.com> <20070522233851.GD23226@Sun.COM> <4653B989.7060604@sun.com> X-Authentication-warning: binky.central.sun.com: nw141292 set sender to Nicolas.Williams@sun.com using -f User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.7i Status: RO Content-Length: 1204 On Tue, May 22, 2007 at 08:48:25PM -0700, Garrett D'Amore wrote: > Nicolas Williams wrote: > >On Tue, May 22, 2007 at 04:34:47PM -0700, Garrett D'Amore wrote: > >>For the record I wasn't complaining about integration into the WOS. I > >>was complaining about namespace pollution in /usr/bin. :-) > > > >No, we should want this in /bin. Lots of folks build open source > >without being developers. cc, gcc, autoconf, make, gmake, ... all > >should be in /bin. > > My point is that unlike gcc, cc, gmake, ... the automake/autoconf > toolchain is _only_ needed by _developers_. Just building sources > rarely requires automake/autoconf. By design, these tools are used to > generate the configure script that end users run. The idea is that > _only_ the developer/distributor is building the configure script, and > end-users (and site admins, etc.) just _run_ configure to configure the > source tree for compilation. So? How do you know nothing will ever rely on these tools for building? I'm sure one could have argued once that the C compiler, make, etcetera were all developer tools -- and /usr/ccs/bin may be good evidence of that. We wouldn't now. Where do Linux distros put these? From Garrett.Damore@sun.com Tue May 22 21:15:30 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4N4FTVS019879 for ; Tue, 22 May 2007 21:15:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4N4EDFP022330 for <@newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com:psarc-ext@sun.com>; Wed, 23 May 2007 05:14:14 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JIH005077RPA600@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Tue, 22 May 2007 22:14:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from nwk-ea-fw-1.sun.com ([10.4.134.5]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JIH003R27RPVZ00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Tue, 22 May 2007 22:14:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from d1-sfbay-10.sun.com ([192.18.39.120]) by nwk-ea-fw-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l4N4ECEp022961 for ; Tue, 22 May 2007 21:14:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-sfbay-10.sun.com by d1-sfbay-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JIH005017IVEM00@d1-sfbay-10.sun.com> (original mail from Garrett.Damore@Sun.COM) for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Tue, 22 May 2007 21:14:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.251.21] ([76.174.83.55]) by d1-sfbay-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JIH006LX7ROH9L1@d1-sfbay-10.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Tue, 22 May 2007 21:14:12 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 21:12:55 -0700 From: "Garrett D'Amore" Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake In-reply-to: <20070523040108.GH23226@Sun.COM> Sender: Garrett.Damore@sun.com To: Nicolas Williams Cc: Alan Coopersmith , John.Fischer@sun.com, psarc-ext@sun.com, Dermot McCluskey Message-id: <4653BF47.6090508@sun.com> Organization: Sun Microsystems MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1179875174.57981.65.camel@sr1-umpk-57> <46537BCB.3050004@sun.com> <46537D72.8080009@sun.com> <46537E17.8050108@sun.com> <20070522233851.GD23226@Sun.COM> <4653B989.7060604@sun.com> <20070523040108.GH23226@Sun.COM> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0b2 (X11/20070227) Status: RO Content-Length: 2054 Nicolas Williams wrote: > On Tue, May 22, 2007 at 08:48:25PM -0700, Garrett D'Amore wrote: > >> Nicolas Williams wrote: >> >>> On Tue, May 22, 2007 at 04:34:47PM -0700, Garrett D'Amore wrote: >>> >>>> For the record I wasn't complaining about integration into the WOS. I >>>> was complaining about namespace pollution in /usr/bin. :-) >>>> >>> No, we should want this in /bin. Lots of folks build open source >>> without being developers. cc, gcc, autoconf, make, gmake, ... all >>> should be in /bin. >>> >> My point is that unlike gcc, cc, gmake, ... the automake/autoconf >> toolchain is _only_ needed by _developers_. Just building sources >> rarely requires automake/autoconf. By design, these tools are used to >> generate the configure script that end users run. The idea is that >> _only_ the developer/distributor is building the configure script, and >> end-users (and site admins, etc.) just _run_ configure to configure the >> source tree for compilation. >> > > So? How do you know nothing will ever rely on these tools for building? > I'm sure one could have argued once that the C compiler, make, etcetera > were all developer tools -- and /usr/ccs/bin may be good evidence of > that. We wouldn't now. Where do Linux distros put these? > I don't know that _nothing_ ever will. It just seems like by picking on automake, we are electing to pick the most volatile tool with the smallest upside, and the biggest potential for wasteful pollution in /usr/bin. There are other gnu tools that I'd far rather see go in first. Like gcc, gmake, etc. Of course, I'm a bit of a heretic, because I actually _prefer_ the Solaris tools for most things... but we have to follow the Loonix market here, I suppose. Anyway, I've raised my concern, which is mostly related to unbounded growth in /usr. Disks have gotten so big that nobody thinks about it anymore, but I'd still like to be able to install the OS on my 4GB boot drives (yes, I have a few around, still. :-) -- Garrett From daleg@elemental.org Tue May 22 21:20:28 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4N4KR7Q019895 for ; Tue, 22 May 2007 21:20:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4N4InIv024742; Wed, 23 May 2007 12:18:50 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JIH002037ZDJR00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Tue, 22 May 2007 21:18:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.98.31]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JIH00GSP7ZCY380@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Tue, 22 May 2007 21:18:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay1.sun.com (relay1.sun.com [150.143.103.14] (may be forged)) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l4N41kmc012984; Wed, 23 May 2007 04:18:48 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mms02es.sun.com ([150.143.104.34] [150.143.104.34]) by relay1.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-1294279; Wed, 23 May 2007 04:18:48 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay01i.sun.com (ip70.net150143-60.block3.us.syntegra.com [150.143.60.70]) by mms02es.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-2616141; Wed, 23 May 2007 04:18:48 +0000 (Z) Received: from lithium.elemental.org ([130.85.5.200] [130.85.5.200]) by relay0i.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-103680; Wed, 23 May 2007 04:18:47 +0000 (Z) Received: from [192.168.1.3] (pool-72-83-163-148.washdc.fios.verizon.net [72.83.163.148]) (authenticated bits=0) by lithium.elemental.org (8.13.8/8.13.8/ELEMENTAL-3.1) with ESMTP id l4N4IlCs020361 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Wed, 23 May 2007 00:18:47 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 00:18:42 -0400 From: Dale Ghent Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake In-reply-to: <20070523040108.GH23226@Sun.COM> To: Nicolas Williams Cc: "Garrett D'Amore" , John.Fischer@sun.com, psarc-ext@sun.com, Dermot McCluskey , Alan Coopersmith Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH authentication, not delayed by milter-greylist-3.0 (lithium.elemental.org [130.85.5.200]); Wed, 23 May 2007 00:18:47 -0400 (EDT) References: <1179875174.57981.65.camel@sr1-umpk-57> <46537BCB.3050004@sun.com> <46537D72.8080009@sun.com> <46537E17.8050108@sun.com> <20070522233851.GD23226@Sun.COM> <4653B989.7060604@sun.com> <20070523040108.GH23226@Sun.COM> Status: RO Content-Length: 1449 On May 23, 2007, at 12:01 AM, Nicolas Williams wrote: > So? How do you know nothing will ever rely on these tools for > building? > I'm sure one could have argued once that the C compiler, make, > etcetera > were all developer tools -- and /usr/ccs/bin may be good evidence of > that. We wouldn't now. Where do Linux distros put these? More importantly, what stuff does everyone think Solaris admin have been putting into a /usr/local/bin for years and years? .... wait for it.... Most any GNU tool imaginable. './configure && make && make install' all the way (or via SunFreeware -local packages) I say as long as there are no name collisions, fill /usr/bin until you're out of inodes. I have yet to meet a person who judges an OS by the result of 'ls -1 /usr/bin | wc -l' ... but I do continue to hear gripes from seasoned Solaris admins and turn-offs from newbies who readily complain about the /usr/bin:/usr/ccs/bin:/usr/ucb/bin:/usr/ sfw/bin $PATH contortion (and practically speaking, /usr/local/bin can be added to that mix.) Q: "Where's gcc?" ... A: "/usr/sfw/bin" .... Q: "Why's that?" .... A: "erm... dogma" Q: "Where's make?" ... A: "/usr/ccs/bin" .... Q: "Why's that?" .... A: "erm... dogma" Yes, yes, I'm sure somewhere in the anals of Solaris history there were good reasons for doing things this way... but that was a much smaller WOS and trainable user base. Times, they are a changin'. /dale From gsf@research.att.com Tue May 22 21:29:39 2007 Received: from newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (newsunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.245]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4N4Tctt019928 for ; Tue, 22 May 2007 21:29:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4N4SED5033550; Tue, 22 May 2007 22:28:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JIH003038FB1G00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Tue, 22 May 2007 21:28:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com ([192.18.98.36]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JIH00G0P8FAY5A0@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Tue, 22 May 2007 21:28:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay1.sun.com (relay1.sun.com [150.143.103.14] (may be forged)) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l4N18VRX005174; Wed, 23 May 2007 04:28:22 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mms04es.sun.com ([150.143.104.74] [150.143.104.74]) by relay1.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-1294774; Wed, 23 May 2007 04:28:22 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay1.sun.com (relay1.sun.com [150.143.103.14]) by mms04es.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-125975; Wed, 23 May 2007 04:28:21 +0000 (Z) Received: from mail-red.research.att.com ([192.20.225.110] [192.20.225.110]) by relay1.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-12398485; Wed, 23 May 2007 04:28:21 +0000 (Z) Received: from penguin.research.att.com (penguin.research.att.com [135.207.20.192]) by mail-green.research.att.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2968A8797; Wed, 23 May 2007 00:28:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from gsf@localhost) by penguin.research.att.com (8.13.1/8.12.10/Submit) id l4N4SLGr006434; Wed, 23 May 2007 00:28:21 -0400 Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 00:28:21 -0400 From: Glenn Fowler Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake To: Garrett.Damore@sun.com, Nicolas.Williams@sun.com Cc: Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com, Dermot.McCluskey@sun.com, John.Fischer@sun.com, psarc-ext@sun.com Message-id: <200705230428.l4N4SLGr006434@penguin.research.att.com> Organization: AT&T Research MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: mailx (AT&T/BSD) 9.9 2006-04-17 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1179875174.57981.65.camel@sr1-umpk-57> <46537BCB.3050004@sun.com> <46537D72.8080009@sun.com> <46537E17.8050108@sun.com> <20070522233851.GD23226@Sun.COM> <4653B989.7060604@sun.com> <20070523040108.GH23226@Sun.COM> <4653BF47.6090508@sun.com> Status: RO Content-Length: 1147 On Tue, 22 May 2007 21:12:55 -0700 Garrett D'Amore wrote: > I don't know that _nothing_ ever will. It just seems like by picking on > automake, we are electing to pick the most volatile tool with the > smallest upside, and the biggest potential for wasteful pollution in > /usr/bin. There are other gnu tools that I'd far rather see go in > first. Like gcc, gmake, etc. > Of course, I'm a bit of a heretic, because I actually _prefer_ the > Solaris tools for most things... but we have to follow the Loonix market > here, I suppose. and from another heretic (although non-gnu and non-solaris) ... I have never had the luck of downloading two independent gnu packages that required the consistent auto* versions for the myriad auto* components each new gnu package seems to require its own auto* sandbox now I could be misreading instructions but I go along with the volatile comment above: if some auto* version is frozen in /usr, how many real world packages will actually work with that frozen version? or are there mechanisms in place to select versions from common wrappers? -- Glenn Fowler -- AT&T Research, Florham Park NJ -- From Nicolas.Williams@sun.com Tue May 22 21:35:09 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4N4Z8EK019988 for ; Tue, 22 May 2007 21:35:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4N4XNFH028053; Wed, 23 May 2007 12:33:50 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JIH007018OBCL00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Tue, 22 May 2007 22:33:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: from binky.central.sun.com ([129.153.128.104]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JIH003OB8OAVZ10@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Tue, 22 May 2007 22:33:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: from binky.central.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by binky.central.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l4N4WRio025490; Tue, 22 May 2007 23:32:27 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from nw141292@localhost) by binky.central.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/Submit) id l4N4WQfP025489; Tue, 22 May 2007 23:32:26 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 23:32:26 -0500 From: Nicolas Williams Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake In-reply-to: <200705230428.l4N4SLGr006434@penguin.research.att.com> To: Glenn Fowler Cc: Garrett.Damore@sun.com, Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com, Dermot.McCluskey@sun.com, John.Fischer@sun.com, psarc-ext@sun.com Message-id: <20070523043225.GK23226@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1179875174.57981.65.camel@sr1-umpk-57> <46537BCB.3050004@sun.com> <46537D72.8080009@sun.com> <46537E17.8050108@sun.com> <20070522233851.GD23226@Sun.COM> <4653B989.7060604@sun.com> <20070523040108.GH23226@Sun.COM> <4653BF47.6090508@sun.com> <200705230428.l4N4SLGr006434@penguin.research.att.com> X-Authentication-warning: binky.central.sun.com: nw141292 set sender to Nicolas.Williams@sun.com using -f User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.7i Status: RO Content-Length: 812 On Wed, May 23, 2007 at 12:28:21AM -0400, Glenn Fowler wrote: > I have never had the luck of downloading two independent gnu packages > that required the consistent auto* versions for the myriad auto* components > each new gnu package seems to require its own auto* sandbox I've had this problem also. Volatility and frequency of releases would be a good reason for shipping multiple versions of these things in some versioned filesystem locations (say, /usr/share(or whatever)/autoconf/). But is this a reason not to ship a default version in /usr/bin? The degree of volatility should provide the answer. We'd ship gcc in /usr/bin because it doesn't change in backwards incompatible ways very often. Does the ARC need to issue some best practice on how to decide this kind of question? Nico -- From jek3@sun.com Tue May 22 22:03:51 2007 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4N53pWQ020429 for ; Tue, 22 May 2007 22:03:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4N52YHw019272; Tue, 22 May 2007 22:02:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JIH00301A0AQY00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Tue, 22 May 2007 22:02:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com ([129.146.17.63]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JIH004IXA0AD380@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Tue, 22 May 2007 22:02:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [129.150.12.53] (vpn-129-150-12-53.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.12.53]) by jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l4N52W87457165; Tue, 22 May 2007 22:02:33 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 19:02:30 -1000 From: Joseph Kowalski Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake In-reply-to: To: Dale Ghent Cc: Nicolas Williams , "Garrett D'Amore" , John.Fischer@sun.com, psarc-ext@sun.com, Dermot McCluskey , Alan Coopersmith Message-id: <4653CAE6.5060707@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1179875174.57981.65.camel@sr1-umpk-57> <46537BCB.3050004@sun.com> <46537D72.8080009@sun.com> <46537E17.8050108@sun.com> <20070522233851.GD23226@Sun.COM> <4653B989.7060604@sun.com> <20070523040108.GH23226@Sun.COM> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060925) Status: RO Content-Length: 1162 Dale Ghent wrote: > Yes, yes, I'm sure somewhere in the anals of Solaris history there > were good reasons for doing things this way... Don't be so sure. We have the /usr/bin vs /usr/ccs/bin split only because the compilers folk and the OS folk at AT&T couldn't get along. The OS folk carved out /usr/ccs/bin just to give the compiler folk their own playground and get them out of the way of the OS folk. Yep, New Jersey is one of the most polluted states in the nation and this is just one example. :-) Note to all: The ARCs might *advise* on what Loonix utilities to include, but its not architecture. If you believe that automake (et.al.) are a poor choice to include, I think you need to talk to management. Personally, I think these make a lot more sense than an number of the loony utilities we've approved. After all, developers are the first thing we want to catch to ensure a health ecosystem. As far as /usr/bin pollution, where else would you suggest? The (now dead) semantic of /usr/sfw isn't right. The semantic of /usr/ccs might be right, but as has been pointed out, we are trying to kill it - have been for years. - jek3 From jek3@Sun.COM Tue May 22 22:10:27 2007 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4N5ARu2020598 for ; Tue, 22 May 2007 22:10:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4N59AcX020351; Tue, 22 May 2007 22:09:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JIH00505ABA8T00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Tue, 22 May 2007 22:09:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com ([129.146.17.59]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JIH00GSVABAY5B0@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Tue, 22 May 2007 22:09:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [129.150.12.53] (vpn-129-150-12-53.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.12.53]) by jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l4N599od457803; Tue, 22 May 2007 22:09:09 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 19:09:06 -1000 From: Joseph Kowalski Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake In-reply-to: <20070523043225.GK23226@Sun.COM> To: Nicolas Williams Cc: Glenn Fowler , Garrett.Damore@Sun.COM, Alan.Coopersmith@Sun.COM, Dermot.McCluskey@Sun.COM, John.Fischer@Sun.COM, psarc-ext@Sun.COM Message-id: <4653CC72.5090600@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1179875174.57981.65.camel@sr1-umpk-57> <46537BCB.3050004@sun.com> <46537D72.8080009@sun.com> <46537E17.8050108@sun.com> <20070522233851.GD23226@Sun.COM> <4653B989.7060604@sun.com> <20070523040108.GH23226@Sun.COM> <4653BF47.6090508@sun.com> <200705230428.l4N4SLGr006434@penguin.research.att.com> <20070523043225.GK23226@Sun.COM> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060925) Status: RO Content-Length: 1417 Nicolas Williams wrote: > On Wed, May 23, 2007 at 12:28:21AM -0400, Glenn Fowler wrote: > >> I have never had the luck of downloading two independent gnu packages >> that required the consistent auto* versions for the myriad auto* components >> each new gnu package seems to require its own auto* sandbox >> > > I've had this problem also. Volatility and frequency of releases would > be a good reason for shipping multiple versions of these things in some > versioned filesystem locations (say, /usr/share(or whatever)/autoconf/). > To be linux like, that would be /usr/lib/autoconf-version. The default version would be through an "alternatives" infrastructure, but in this case, only useful for developing a component from scratch - rebuilding a component is 99.44% likely to need another version. /us/lib is an incredibly logical location, don't you think? :-) > But is this a reason not to ship a default version in /usr/bin? The > degree of volatility should provide the answer. We'd ship gcc in > /usr/bin because it doesn't change in backwards incompatible ways very > often. Does the ARC need to issue some best practice on how to decide > this kind of question? > I think this is a legitimate question. Does the default version provide value, or are we just following some form of Solaris Best Practice? If so, there can easily be exceptions to a best practice. - jek3 From Torrey.McMahon@sun.com Tue May 22 22:10:41 2007 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4N5AfCb020610 for ; Tue, 22 May 2007 22:10:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4N59QnD020386 for <@sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com:psarc-ext@sun.com>; Tue, 22 May 2007 22:09:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JIH00505ABQ9700@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Tue, 22 May 2007 22:09:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.98.31]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JIH00GOGABOXZA0@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Tue, 22 May 2007 22:09:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fe-amer-01.sun.com ([192.18.108.175]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l4N59OQ8027266 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 05:09:24 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.mail-amer.sun.com by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JIH007019CXVS00@mail-amer.sun.com> (original mail from Torrey.McMahon@Sun.COM) for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Tue, 22 May 2007 23:09:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [192.168.1.100] ([69.143.10.104]) by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JIH00IVBABMT7N2@mail-amer.sun.com>; Tue, 22 May 2007 23:09:24 -0600 (MDT) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 01:09:22 -0400 From: Torrey McMahon Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake In-reply-to: <4653CAE6.5060707@sun.com> Sender: Torrey.McMahon@sun.com To: Joseph Kowalski Cc: Dale Ghent , Nicolas Williams , "Garrett D'Amore" , John.Fischer@sun.com, psarc-ext@sun.com, Dermot McCluskey , Alan Coopersmith Message-id: <4653CC82.5080502@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1179875174.57981.65.camel@sr1-umpk-57> <46537BCB.3050004@sun.com> <46537D72.8080009@sun.com> <46537E17.8050108@sun.com> <20070522233851.GD23226@Sun.COM> <4653B989.7060604@sun.com> <20070523040108.GH23226@Sun.COM> <4653CAE6.5060707@sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.0 (Windows/20070326) Status: RO Content-Length: 249 Joseph Kowalski wrote: > > > As far as /usr/bin pollution, where else would you suggest? c:\Program Files (x86) :) Seriously - Can someone expand on what /usr/bin pollution is? Conflicts I can understand. Pollution ... I'm not getting that one. From jek3@sun.com Tue May 22 22:22:37 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4N5MZAk020680 for ; Tue, 22 May 2007 22:22:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4N5LAde009573; Wed, 23 May 2007 13:21:13 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JIH00509AVAV800@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Tue, 22 May 2007 22:21:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com ([129.146.17.63]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JIH00GMOAVAY5C0@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Tue, 22 May 2007 22:21:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [129.150.12.53] (vpn-129-150-12-53.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.12.53]) by jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l4N5L8cR458861; Tue, 22 May 2007 22:21:08 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 19:21:05 -1000 From: Joseph Kowalski Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake In-reply-to: <4653CC82.5080502@sun.com> To: Torrey McMahon Cc: Dale Ghent , Nicolas Williams , "Garrett D'Amore" , John.Fischer@sun.com, psarc-ext@sun.com, Dermot McCluskey , Alan Coopersmith Message-id: <4653CF41.4060805@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1179875174.57981.65.camel@sr1-umpk-57> <46537BCB.3050004@sun.com> <46537D72.8080009@sun.com> <46537E17.8050108@sun.com> <20070522233851.GD23226@Sun.COM> <4653B989.7060604@sun.com> <20070523040108.GH23226@Sun.COM> <4653CAE6.5060707@sun.com> <4653CC82.5080502@sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060925) Status: RO Content-Length: 1239 Torrey McMahon wrote: > Joseph Kowalski wrote: >> >> >> As far as /usr/bin pollution, where else would you suggest? > > c:\Program Files (x86) :) > > Seriously - Can someone expand on what /usr/bin pollution is? > Conflicts I can understand. Pollution ... I'm not getting that one. The concern is namespace pollution. For example, we recently approved "tab2space" as part of integrating libTIDY - a marginal relationship at best, but they come from the same developer. "tab2space" is a fairly generic name (and actually is more like our dos2unix/unix2dos utilities than the name might imply). Its probably only a matter of time until something else from some other loonix developer tries to deliver something of the same name. If it were internally developed, the ARC would have forced a less generic name - tidy-tabs or something like that, even if it sounds like a toilet bowl cleaner. We are a little protected from this because loonix developers are used to lumping everything in /usr/bin and/or /bin so conflicts are discovered early and usually resolved. With something that's been around as long as automake, I don't understand the concern. Its a name every developer knows and is unlikely to step on. - jek3 From John.Plocher@sun.com Tue May 22 22:24:32 2007 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4N5OWLD020694 for ; Tue, 22 May 2007 22:24:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4N5NIEq018586 for <@newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com:psarc-ext@sun.com>; Tue, 22 May 2007 22:23:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JIH00C03AYTOC00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Tue, 22 May 2007 23:23:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: from nwk-ea-fw-1.sun.com ([10.4.134.5]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JIH003XDAYSW630@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Tue, 22 May 2007 23:23:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: from d1-sfbay-09.sun.com ([192.18.39.119]) by nwk-ea-fw-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l4N5NFqL024849 for ; Tue, 22 May 2007 22:23:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-sfbay-09.sun.com by d1-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JIH00A01AXPUH00@d1-sfbay-09.sun.com> (original mail from John.Plocher@Sun.COM) for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Tue, 22 May 2007 22:23:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.168.4] ([66.166.204.98]) by d1-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JIH002F7AYRDHMA@d1-sfbay-09.sun.com>; Tue, 22 May 2007 22:23:15 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 22:23:12 -0700 From: John Plocher Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake In-reply-to: <4653CAE6.5060707@sun.com> Sender: John.Plocher@sun.com To: Joseph Kowalski Cc: Dale Ghent , John.Fischer@sun.com, Alan Coopersmith , psarc-ext@sun.com, "Garrett D'Amore" , Dermot McCluskey Message-id: <4653CFC0.6020708@Sun.Com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1179875174.57981.65.camel@sr1-umpk-57> <46537BCB.3050004@sun.com> <46537D72.8080009@sun.com> <46537E17.8050108@sun.com> <20070522233851.GD23226@Sun.COM> <4653B989.7060604@sun.com> <20070523040108.GH23226@Sun.COM> <4653CAE6.5060707@sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Macintosh/20070221) Status: RO Content-Length: 1233 If it is true that there is a maze of different versions of automake, all alike, yet different enough that "every" consuming project needs its own specific version, then having /usr/bin/automake (even as a symlink) seems incomplete. And, as Garrett said, having a 'zillion automake-XX.YY binaries living directly in /usr/bin seems crude. We've solved this "need multiple versions of something installed at the same time" problem before, usually via some sort of sub- namespace. This proposal seems to be halfway there with its /usr/share/ hierarchy; I'd suggest that it could be improved by making /usr/share/automake the top level directory, and having each versioned package install under it in its own versioned subdir: /usr/share/automake/1.9 /usr/share/automake/1.10 I would also suggest /not/ binding the version name into the package name, but instead using the package VERSION mechanism with a "smart" pkgmap that is version aware and MAXINST != 1. This would allow one to install whatever VERSIONS one desires, simultaneously, without polluting the pkg name namespace. The WOS could also deliver a small "binding package" that simply made the symlinks between /usr/bin/automake and the version de-jour. -John From Nicolas.Williams@sun.com Tue May 22 22:29:26 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4N5TP9q020708 for ; Tue, 22 May 2007 22:29:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4N5S1ir005619; Wed, 23 May 2007 06:28:07 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JIH0060BB6TD600@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Tue, 22 May 2007 22:28:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from binky.central.sun.com ([129.153.128.104]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JIH00445B6SD1A0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Tue, 22 May 2007 22:28:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from binky.central.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by binky.central.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l4N5QhPF025530; Wed, 23 May 2007 00:26:43 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from nw141292@localhost) by binky.central.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/Submit) id l4N5Qhun025529; Wed, 23 May 2007 00:26:43 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 00:26:43 -0500 From: Nicolas Williams Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake In-reply-to: <4653CC82.5080502@sun.com> To: Torrey McMahon Cc: Joseph Kowalski , Dale Ghent , "Garrett D'Amore" , John.Fischer@sun.com, psarc-ext@sun.com, Dermot McCluskey , Alan Coopersmith Message-id: <20070523052640.GL23226@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1179875174.57981.65.camel@sr1-umpk-57> <46537BCB.3050004@sun.com> <46537D72.8080009@sun.com> <46537E17.8050108@sun.com> <20070522233851.GD23226@Sun.COM> <4653B989.7060604@sun.com> <20070523040108.GH23226@Sun.COM> <4653CAE6.5060707@sun.com> <4653CC82.5080502@sun.com> X-Authentication-warning: binky.central.sun.com: nw141292 set sender to Nicolas.Williams@sun.com using -f User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.7i Status: RO Content-Length: 1322 On Wed, May 23, 2007 at 01:09:22AM -0400, Torrey McMahon wrote: > Seriously - Can someone expand on what /usr/bin pollution is? Conflicts > I can understand. Pollution ... I'm not getting that one. OTish. Do you ever typo common commands? If a common typo of a common command is an obscure command that does something unpleasant, then *that* is pollution. E.g., adding a command called "xs" -- I'd trip over it a couple of times daily. Before Solaris added less I used to type "omre" much too often as well. Now, try writing a rule or best practice on avoiding command names that are common typos of common commands... We may all typo differently. Also, if a mostly useless command we'd add to /usr/bin today could end up conflicting with a much more useful command later on, then that might be considered pollution as well. But of course, this mostly doesn't happen, and the best way to prevent this, ironically, may be to put everything in /usr/bin, so developers know what names are taken with a reasonable degree of certainty. And if pollution is stuff most folks are not likely to need, well, then it would be pollution no matter where we put it. /bin is as good a place as any then. So, yes, I agree: namespace "pollution" does not seem like a very good argument to keep automake out of /bin. Nico -- From Nicolas.Williams@sun.com Tue May 22 22:34:44 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4N5YhX7020744 for ; Tue, 22 May 2007 22:34:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4N5XJcp012028; Wed, 23 May 2007 13:33:23 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JIH00D01BFLQ000@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Tue, 22 May 2007 23:33:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from binky.central.sun.com ([129.153.128.104]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JIH003P1BFLVY30@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Tue, 22 May 2007 23:33:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: from binky.central.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by binky.central.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l4N5W0hj025539; Wed, 23 May 2007 00:32:00 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from nw141292@localhost) by binky.central.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/Submit) id l4N5W06S025538; Wed, 23 May 2007 00:32:00 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 00:32:00 -0500 From: Nicolas Williams Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake In-reply-to: <4653CFC0.6020708@Sun.Com> To: John Plocher Cc: Joseph Kowalski , John.Fischer@sun.com, Alan Coopersmith , psarc-ext@sun.com, "Garrett D'Amore" , Dermot McCluskey Message-id: <20070523053159.GM23226@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1179875174.57981.65.camel@sr1-umpk-57> <46537BCB.3050004@sun.com> <46537D72.8080009@sun.com> <46537E17.8050108@sun.com> <20070522233851.GD23226@Sun.COM> <4653B989.7060604@sun.com> <20070523040108.GH23226@Sun.COM> <4653CAE6.5060707@sun.com> <4653CFC0.6020708@Sun.Com> X-Authentication-warning: binky.central.sun.com: nw141292 set sender to Nicolas.Williams@sun.com using -f User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.7i Status: RO Content-Length: 501 On Tue, May 22, 2007 at 10:23:12PM -0700, John Plocher wrote: > I would also suggest /not/ binding the version name into the > package name, but instead using the package VERSION mechanism > with a "smart" pkgmap that is version aware and MAXINST != 1. > This would allow one to install whatever VERSIONS one desires, > simultaneously, without polluting the pkg name namespace. Do the patch tools deal well with that? (Not that we'd ever patch these, right? New auto* version -> new pkg version.) From jek3@sun.com Tue May 22 23:33:09 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4N6X8dB021326 for ; Tue, 22 May 2007 23:33:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4N6VkP0025930; Wed, 23 May 2007 14:31:47 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JIH00903E4YG000@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Tue, 22 May 2007 23:31:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com ([129.146.17.63]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JIH009KUE4Y3C00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Tue, 22 May 2007 23:31:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [129.150.12.53] (vpn-129-150-12-53.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.12.53]) by jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l4N6VbU1465958; Tue, 22 May 2007 23:31:38 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 20:31:34 -1000 From: Joseph Kowalski Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake In-reply-to: <20070523052640.GL23226@Sun.COM> To: Nicolas Williams Cc: Torrey McMahon , Dale Ghent , "Garrett D'Amore" , John.Fischer@sun.com, psarc-ext@sun.com, Dermot McCluskey , Alan Coopersmith Message-id: <4653DFC6.80305@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1179875174.57981.65.camel@sr1-umpk-57> <46537BCB.3050004@sun.com> <46537D72.8080009@sun.com> <46537E17.8050108@sun.com> <20070522233851.GD23226@Sun.COM> <4653B989.7060604@sun.com> <20070523040108.GH23226@Sun.COM> <4653CAE6.5060707@sun.com> <4653CC82.5080502@sun.com> <20070523052640.GL23226@Sun.COM> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060925) Status: RO Content-Length: 589 Nicolas Williams wrote: > Do you ever typo common commands? If a common typo of a common command > is an obscure command that does something unpleasant, then *that* is > pollution. E.g., adding a command called "xs" -- I'd trip over it a > couple of times daily. Before Solaris added less I used to type "omre" > much too often as well. > My favorite is the rcs command "ci", right next to "vi" and difficult to get out of cleanly once started. However, I think the "typo" problem is resolved by long names - something linux (FOSS) developers seem to have no issue with. - jek3 From jek3@Sun.COM Tue May 22 23:36:45 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4N6aiGW021342 for ; Tue, 22 May 2007 23:36:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4N6ZNhv026983; Wed, 23 May 2007 14:35:27 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JIH00907EB1MG00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Tue, 22 May 2007 23:35:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com ([129.146.17.59]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JIH0096KEB03A10@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Tue, 22 May 2007 23:35:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [129.150.12.53] (vpn-129-150-12-53.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.12.53]) by jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l4N6ZNVc466601; Tue, 22 May 2007 23:35:23 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 20:35:17 -1000 From: Joseph Kowalski Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake In-reply-to: <20070523053159.GM23226@Sun.COM> To: Nicolas Williams Cc: John Plocher , John.Fischer@Sun.COM, Alan Coopersmith , psarc-ext@Sun.COM, "Garrett D'Amore" , Dermot McCluskey Message-id: <4653E0A5.3020805@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1179875174.57981.65.camel@sr1-umpk-57> <46537BCB.3050004@sun.com> <46537D72.8080009@sun.com> <46537E17.8050108@sun.com> <20070522233851.GD23226@Sun.COM> <4653B989.7060604@sun.com> <20070523040108.GH23226@Sun.COM> <4653CAE6.5060707@sun.com> <4653CFC0.6020708@Sun.Com> <20070523053159.GM23226@Sun.COM> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060925) Status: RO Content-Length: 886 Nicolas Williams wrote: > On Tue, May 22, 2007 at 10:23:12PM -0700, John Plocher wrote: > >> I would also suggest /not/ binding the version name into the >> package name, but instead using the package VERSION mechanism >> with a "smart" pkgmap that is version aware and MAXINST != 1. >> This would allow one to install whatever VERSIONS one desires, >> simultaneously, without polluting the pkg name namespace. >> > > Do the patch tools deal well with that? (Not that we'd ever patch > these, right? New auto* version -> new pkg version.) > This suggestion just simply doesn't work. It did at one time, but various fixes (or bugs, depending upon how you look at it) have been introduced to make this impractical. In any case, you would always have needed an "admin(5)" file to make it work, which is not good design for what's expected to be standard practice. - jek3 From jek3@sun.com Tue May 22 23:52:06 2007 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4N6q51X021508 for ; Tue, 22 May 2007 23:52:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4N6oqDx005495; Tue, 22 May 2007 23:50:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JIH00F05F0P1W00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Tue, 22 May 2007 23:50:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com ([129.146.17.59]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JIH004WCF0NDAD0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Tue, 22 May 2007 23:50:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [129.150.12.53] (vpn-129-150-12-53.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.12.53]) by jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l4N6odRd468179; Tue, 22 May 2007 23:50:44 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 20:50:33 -1000 From: Joseph Kowalski Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake In-reply-to: <4653CFC0.6020708@Sun.Com> To: John Plocher Cc: Dale Ghent , John.Fischer@sun.com, Alan Coopersmith , psarc-ext@sun.com, "Garrett D'Amore" , Dermot McCluskey Message-id: <4653E439.3010405@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1179875174.57981.65.camel@sr1-umpk-57> <46537BCB.3050004@sun.com> <46537D72.8080009@sun.com> <46537E17.8050108@sun.com> <20070522233851.GD23226@Sun.COM> <4653B989.7060604@sun.com> <20070523040108.GH23226@Sun.COM> <4653CAE6.5060707@sun.com> <4653CFC0.6020708@Sun.Com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060925) Status: RO Content-Length: 2595 John Plocher wrote: > If it is true that there is a maze of different versions > of automake, all alike, yet different enough that "every" > consuming project needs its own specific version, then having > /usr/bin/automake (even as a symlink) seems incomplete. Incomplete? Incorrect or "bad idea", but I don't see how its incomplete. Could you eloborate? > And, as Garrett said, having a 'zillion automake-XX.YY binaries > living directly in /usr/bin seems crude. If we can have "/usr/bin/tab2space" because that's how linux users expect it, then I fail to see an issue with the multiple automake. > We've solved this "need multiple versions of something installed > at the same time" problem before, usually via some sort of sub- > namespace. And those components consisted of multiple objects. I don't think we've done it for single objects. > This proposal seems to be halfway there with its /usr/share/ > hierarchy; I'd suggest that it could be improved by making > /usr/share/automake the top level directory, and having each > versioned package install under it in its own versioned subdir: > > /usr/share/automake/1.9 > /usr/share/automake/1.10 This is a nit, but why is "share" appropriate? If this is fully interpreted, that's just a happy coincidence. Maybe automake1.13 will be rewritten in C for efficency. This is just an executable. Treat it as such. If you buy this much, we could create: /usr/bin/automake/ I don't see that as drastically different from: /usr/bin/automake- and the later seems to be fairly standard practice, and you don't need to type full paths to make it work. > I would also suggest /not/ binding the version name into the > package name, but instead using the package VERSION mechanism > with a "smart" pkgmap that is version aware and MAXINST != 1. > This would allow one to install whatever VERSIONS one desires, > simultaneously, without polluting the pkg name namespace. One would like to think the above works. By our documentation I think it even claims to work. I filed a bug on this several years ago - no action. It doesn't work. > The WOS could also deliver a small "binding package" that simply > made the symlinks between /usr/bin/automake and the version > de-jour. Been here also. The WOS has no ability/desire to do this sort of thing. The file which tells Java what the default **Solaris** version should be delivered by the "WOS", but is delivered by ON, because I could make that happen. I couldn't get the WOS to actually contibute value. See; PSARC/2004/663 default_java file - jek3 From Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com Wed May 23 00:04:06 2007 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4N745Ff022670 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 00:04:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4N72mFd004143 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:psarc-ext@sun.com>; Wed, 23 May 2007 00:02:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JIH00G2VFKTBK00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 23 May 2007 00:02:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com ([192.18.98.36]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JIH004C9FKRD8F0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 23 May 2007 00:02:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fe-amer-05.sun.com ([192.18.108.179]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l4N72pgC019882 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 07:02:51 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.mail-amer.sun.com by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JIH00101E6YFU00@mail-amer.sun.com> (original mail from Alan.Coopersmith@Sun.COM) for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 23 May 2007 01:02:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [192.168.0.166] ([66.120.186.27]) by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JIH0032PFKLLFQ0@mail-amer.sun.com>; Wed, 23 May 2007 01:02:51 -0600 (MDT) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 00:02:28 -0700 From: Alan Coopersmith Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake In-reply-to: <4653CFC0.6020708@Sun.Com> Sender: Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com To: John Plocher Cc: Joseph Kowalski , Dale Ghent , John.Fischer@sun.com, psarc-ext@sun.com, "Garrett D'Amore" , Dermot McCluskey Message-id: <4653E704.7000200@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1179875174.57981.65.camel@sr1-umpk-57> <46537BCB.3050004@sun.com> <46537D72.8080009@sun.com> <46537E17.8050108@sun.com> <20070522233851.GD23226@Sun.COM> <4653B989.7060604@sun.com> <20070523040108.GH23226@Sun.COM> <4653CAE6.5060707@sun.com> <4653CFC0.6020708@Sun.Com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.0 (Windows/20070326) Status: RO Content-Length: 471 John Plocher wrote: > I would also suggest /not/ binding the version name into the > package name, but instead using the package VERSION mechanism > with a "smart" pkgmap that is version aware and MAXINST != 1. I'm fairly sure the Solaris OS installer enforces a "only one version of a package can be installed" rule, no matter what MAXINST says. -- -Alan Coopersmith- alan.coopersmith@sun.com Sun Microsystems, Inc. - X Window System Engineering From Nicolas.Williams@sun.com Wed May 23 00:09:33 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4N79WKa022706 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 00:09:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4N78DaE004949; Wed, 23 May 2007 15:08:14 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JIH00B05FTPHW00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 23 May 2007 00:08:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from binky.central.sun.com ([129.153.128.104]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JIH0093QFTO3C40@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 23 May 2007 00:08:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from binky.central.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by binky.central.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l4N76qko025642; Wed, 23 May 2007 02:06:52 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from nw141292@localhost) by binky.central.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/Submit) id l4N76qFD025641; Wed, 23 May 2007 02:06:52 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 02:06:52 -0500 From: Nicolas Williams Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake In-reply-to: <4653E704.7000200@sun.com> To: Alan Coopersmith Cc: John Plocher , John.Fischer@sun.com, Joseph Kowalski , psarc-ext@sun.com, "Garrett D'Amore" , Dermot McCluskey Message-id: <20070523070650.GP23226@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <46537BCB.3050004@sun.com> <46537D72.8080009@sun.com> <46537E17.8050108@sun.com> <20070522233851.GD23226@Sun.COM> <4653B989.7060604@sun.com> <20070523040108.GH23226@Sun.COM> <4653CAE6.5060707@sun.com> <4653CFC0.6020708@Sun.Com> <4653E704.7000200@sun.com> X-Authentication-warning: binky.central.sun.com: nw141292 set sender to Nicolas.Williams@sun.com using -f User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.7i Status: RO Content-Length: 566 On Wed, May 23, 2007 at 12:02:28AM -0700, Alan Coopersmith wrote: > John Plocher wrote: > >I would also suggest /not/ binding the version name into the > >package name, but instead using the package VERSION mechanism > >with a "smart" pkgmap that is version aware and MAXINST != 1. > > I'm fairly sure the Solaris OS installer enforces a "only one > version of a package can be installed" rule, no matter what > MAXINST says. OT: MAXINST should just always be =1. The whole multiple instances of pkgs thing seems incomplete and, anyways, smells like a bad idea. From casper@holland.sun.com Wed May 23 00:26:40 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4N7QdrA022873 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 00:26:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4N7P9AW009683; Wed, 23 May 2007 15:25:17 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JIH00C03GM4B000@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 23 May 2007 00:25:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com ([129.159.237.36]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JIH009CKGM33D60@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 23 May 2007 00:25:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from holland (room101 [129.159.130.93]) by sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7) with ESMTP id l4N7PEfE056229; Wed, 23 May 2007 09:25:14 +0200 (MEST) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 09:25:14 +0200 From: Casper.Dik@sun.com Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake In-reply-to: <4653E704.7000200@sun.com> Sender: casper@holland.sun.com To: Alan Coopersmith Cc: John Plocher , Joseph Kowalski , Dale Ghent , John.Fischer@sun.com, psarc-ext@sun.com, "Garrett D'Amore" , Dermot McCluskey Message-id: <200705230725.l4N7PEfE056229@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1179875174.57981.65.camel@sr1-umpk-57> <46537BCB.3050004@sun.com> <46537D72.8080009@sun.com> <46537E17.8050108@sun.com> <20070522233851.GD23226@Sun.COM> <4653B989.7060604@sun.com> <20070523040108.GH23226@Sun.COM> <4653CAE6.5060707@sun.com> <4653CFC0.6020708@Sun.Com> <4653E704.7000200@sun.com> Status: RO Content-Length: 521 >John Plocher wrote: >> I would also suggest /not/ binding the version name into the >> package name, but instead using the package VERSION mechanism >> with a "smart" pkgmap that is version aware and MAXINST != 1. > >I'm fairly sure the Solaris OS installer enforces a "only one >version of a package can be installed" rule, no matter what >MAXINST says. It does not really enforce that; in those cases in which packages failed to be removed completely you would get SUNWpkg.2 files. (On upgrades, that is) Casper From jek3@sun.com Wed May 23 01:27:10 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4N8R9j7023721 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 01:27:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4N8Pm5C026392; Wed, 23 May 2007 16:25:51 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JIH00107JF2QH00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 23 May 2007 01:25:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com ([129.146.17.59]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JIH00HQFJF10Z20@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 23 May 2007 01:25:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [129.150.12.53] (vpn-129-150-12-53.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.12.53]) by jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l4N8Pm4o480381; Wed, 23 May 2007 01:25:48 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 22:25:43 -1000 From: Joseph Kowalski Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake In-reply-to: <20070523070650.GP23226@Sun.COM> To: Nicolas Williams Cc: Alan Coopersmith , John Plocher , John.Fischer@sun.com, psarc-ext@sun.com, "Garrett D'Amore" , Dermot McCluskey Message-id: <4653FA87.2000408@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <46537BCB.3050004@sun.com> <46537D72.8080009@sun.com> <46537E17.8050108@sun.com> <20070522233851.GD23226@Sun.COM> <4653B989.7060604@sun.com> <20070523040108.GH23226@Sun.COM> <4653CAE6.5060707@sun.com> <4653CFC0.6020708@Sun.Com> <4653E704.7000200@sun.com> <20070523070650.GP23226@Sun.COM> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060925) Status: RO Content-Length: 825 Nicolas Williams wrote: > On Wed, May 23, 2007 at 12:02:28AM -0700, Alan Coopersmith wrote: > >> John Plocher wrote: >> >>> I would also suggest /not/ binding the version name into the >>> package name, but instead using the package VERSION mechanism >>> with a "smart" pkgmap that is version aware and MAXINST != 1. >>> >> I'm fairly sure the Solaris OS installer enforces a "only one >> version of a package can be installed" rule, no matter what >> MAXINST says. >> > > OT: > > MAXINST should just always be =1. The whole multiple instances > of pkgs thing seems incomplete and, anyways, smells like a bad idea. > I don't know. If you manipulate BASEDIR, I think it could be used for good purposes. Unfortunately, this is broken contrary to the documentation, so any discussion is moot. - jek3 From Garrett.Damore@sun.com Wed May 23 01:39:48 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4N8dl1a023857 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 01:39:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4N8cV3a029742 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:psarc-ext@sun.com>; Wed, 23 May 2007 16:38:35 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JIH00203K08YL00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 23 May 2007 01:38:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-ea-fw-1.sun.com ([10.4.134.5]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JIH00HDVK080U30@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 23 May 2007 01:38:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d1-sfbay-09.sun.com ([192.18.39.119]) by nwk-ea-fw-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l4N8cWqO028804 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 01:38:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-sfbay-09.sun.com by d1-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JIH00601JZTGC00@d1-sfbay-09.sun.com> (original mail from Garrett.Damore@Sun.COM) for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 23 May 2007 01:38:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.251.21] ([76.174.83.55]) by d1-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JIH002GLK07DHJB@d1-sfbay-09.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 23 May 2007 01:38:32 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 01:37:14 -0700 From: "Garrett D'Amore" Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake In-reply-to: <20070523043225.GK23226@Sun.COM> Sender: Garrett.Damore@sun.com To: Nicolas Williams Cc: Glenn Fowler , Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com, Dermot.McCluskey@sun.com, John.Fischer@sun.com, psarc-ext@sun.com Message-id: <4653FD3A.2050906@sun.com> Organization: Sun Microsystems MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1179875174.57981.65.camel@sr1-umpk-57> <46537BCB.3050004@sun.com> <46537D72.8080009@sun.com> <46537E17.8050108@sun.com> <20070522233851.GD23226@Sun.COM> <4653B989.7060604@sun.com> <20070523040108.GH23226@Sun.COM> <4653BF47.6090508@sun.com> <200705230428.l4N4SLGr006434@penguin.research.att.com> <20070523043225.GK23226@Sun.COM> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0b2 (X11/20070227) Status: RO Content-Length: 1834 Nicolas Williams wrote: > On Wed, May 23, 2007 at 12:28:21AM -0400, Glenn Fowler wrote: > >> I have never had the luck of downloading two independent gnu packages >> that required the consistent auto* versions for the myriad auto* components >> each new gnu package seems to require its own auto* sandbox >> > > I've had this problem also. Volatility and frequency of releases would > be a good reason for shipping multiple versions of these things in some > versioned filesystem locations (say, /usr/share(or whatever)/autoconf/). > > But is this a reason not to ship a default version in /usr/bin? The > degree of volatility should provide the answer. We'd ship gcc in > /usr/bin because it doesn't change in backwards incompatible ways very > often. Does the ARC need to issue some best practice on how to decide > this kind of question? > There just plain *isn't* a reasonable default version of these tools. I claim that there is not a significant audience that is going to be generally satisfied with what we choose. Additionally, putting things in /usr/bin that are *likely* to conflict with /usr/local (or wherever sites have chosen) is one of my pet peeves. /usr/bin is always at the front of my path, for performance and for ensuring that I get sane default versions of most commands. When /usr/bin provides a version of a command that isn't a sane default, I have to set up an alias, or use some other unfortunate hack. Again, I reiterate, because I don't believe that automake and autoconf are particularly useful for anyone other than the maintainers of packages, who are precisely the sort of people most likely to have their own sandbox versions, I don't believe that stuffing automake/autoconf into /usr/bin is the most sane course of action for us at this time. -- Garrett From Garrett.Damore@Sun.COM Wed May 23 01:50:36 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4N8oah0023940 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 01:50:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4N8nItv023056 for <@newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com:psarc-ext@sun.com>; Wed, 23 May 2007 09:49:22 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JIH00B0BKI79W00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 23 May 2007 02:49:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from nwk-ea-fw-1.sun.com ([10.4.134.6]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JIH0039PKI6VYE0@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 23 May 2007 02:49:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from d1-sfbay-09.sun.com ([192.18.39.119]) by nwk-ea-fw-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l4N8nIBE016334 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 01:49:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-sfbay-09.sun.com by d1-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JIH00A01KFFA500@d1-sfbay-09.sun.com> (original mail from Garrett.Damore@Sun.COM) for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 23 May 2007 01:49:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.251.21] ([76.174.83.55]) by d1-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JIH002LGKI5DHLB@d1-sfbay-09.sun.com>; Wed, 23 May 2007 01:49:17 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 01:47:59 -0700 From: "Garrett D'Amore" Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake In-reply-to: <4653CC82.5080502@sun.com> Sender: Garrett.Damore@Sun.COM To: Torrey McMahon Cc: Joseph Kowalski , Dale Ghent , Nicolas Williams , John.Fischer@Sun.COM, psarc-ext@Sun.COM, Dermot McCluskey , Alan Coopersmith Message-id: <4653FFBF.1070704@sun.com> Organization: Sun Microsystems MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1179875174.57981.65.camel@sr1-umpk-57> <46537BCB.3050004@sun.com> <46537D72.8080009@sun.com> <46537E17.8050108@sun.com> <20070522233851.GD23226@Sun.COM> <4653B989.7060604@sun.com> <20070523040108.GH23226@Sun.COM> <4653CAE6.5060707@sun.com> <4653CC82.5080502@sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0b2 (X11/20070227) Status: RO Content-Length: 1103 Torrey McMahon wrote: > Joseph Kowalski wrote: >> >> >> As far as /usr/bin pollution, where else would you suggest? > > c:\Program Files (x86) :) > > Seriously - Can someone expand on what /usr/bin pollution is? > Conflicts I can understand. Pollution ... I'm not getting that one. Probably my use. Large numbers of files in any directory have bad implications for some things. * time to back up (ufsdump/restore) for filesystems with lots of inodes goes up significantly * time to search within directories is harder * command line completion becomes decreasingly useful as the number of collisions for the first few characters in each name goes up. * generally disk space consumption goes up Taken individually, not a big deal. But I do think some thought should be given to what value adding something in /usr/bin gives. In the case of automake/autoconf, I just don't see it. Every developer for GNU software on the planet is probably used to downloading and installing their own toolchain for automake/autoconf, just because of all the differences between versions. -- Garrett From schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de Wed May 23 02:14:59 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4N9EwTB024872 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 02:14:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4N9DbZC029809; Wed, 23 May 2007 10:13:42 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JIH00H01LMTRN00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 23 May 2007 02:13:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sca-ea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.43.25]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JIH00GV5LMTGO20@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 23 May 2007 02:13:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay3.sun.com (relay3.sun.com [150.143.103.54] (may be forged)) by sca-ea-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l4N8IMc5017845; Wed, 23 May 2007 09:13:40 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mms04es.sun.com ([150.143.104.74] [150.143.104.74]) by relay3.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-1313748; Wed, 23 May 2007 09:13:40 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay4.sun.com (relay4.sun.com [150.143.103.74]) by mms04es.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-309751; Wed, 23 May 2007 09:13:39 +0000 (Z) Received: from mailhub.fokus.fraunhofer.de ([193.174.154.14] [193.174.154.14]) by relay4.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-11889727; Wed, 23 May 2007 09:13:39 +0000 (Z) Received: from burner.fokus.fraunhofer.de (burner [10.147.65.166]) by mailhub.fokus.fraunhofer.de (8.11.6p2/8.11.6) with ESMTP id l4N9DbF25879; Wed, 23 May 2007 11:13:37 +0200 (MEST) Received: (from jes@localhost) by burner.fokus.fraunhofer.de (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/Submit) id l4N9Ca22025020; Wed, 23 May 2007 11:12:36 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 11:12:36 +0200 From: Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (Joerg Schilling) Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake In-reply-to: <20070522233851.GD23226@Sun.COM> Sender: schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de To: Nicolas.Williams@Sun.COM, Garrett.Damore@Sun.COM Cc: psarc-ext@Sun.COM, John.Fischer@Sun.COM, Dermot.McCluskey@Sun.COM, Alan.Coopersmith@Sun.COM Message-id: <46540584.OjEmyNm8hZwReSiC%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1179875174.57981.65.camel@sr1-umpk-57> <46537BCB.3050004@sun.com> <46537D72.8080009@sun.com> <46537E17.8050108@sun.com> <20070522233851.GD23226@Sun.COM> User-Agent: nail 11.22 3/20/05 Status: RO Content-Length: 796 Nicolas Williams wrote: > On Tue, May 22, 2007 at 04:34:47PM -0700, Garrett D'Amore wrote: > > For the record I wasn't complaining about integration into the WOS. I > > was complaining about namespace pollution in /usr/bin. :-) > > No, we should want this in /bin. Lots of folks build open source > without being developers. cc, gcc, autoconf, make, gmake, ... all > should be in /bin. Does this mean you also like to create symlinks from /bin to /usr/ccs/bin/* Jörg -- EMail:joerg@schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin js@cs.tu-berlin.de (uni) schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily From schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de Wed May 23 02:19:45 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4N9JiCM024909 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 02:19:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4N9IKoM000950; Wed, 23 May 2007 10:18:28 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JIH00I0DLUQ3U00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 23 May 2007 02:18:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sca-ea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.43.24]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JIH00G5NLUOGS30@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 23 May 2007 02:18:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay43i.sun.com ([192.5.209.74]) by sca-ea-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l4N9HA8b016013; Wed, 23 May 2007 09:18:24 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mms48es.sun.com ([160.41.221.231] [160.41.221.231]) by relay43i.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-130766; Wed, 23 May 2007 09:18:24 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay41i.sun.com ([192.5.209.70] [192.5.209.70]) by mms48es.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-1502637; Wed, 23 May 2007 09:18:23 +0000 (Z) Received: from mailhub.fokus.fraunhofer.de ([193.174.154.14] [193.174.154.14]) by relay4i.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-1036582; Wed, 23 May 2007 09:18:23 +0000 (Z) Received: from burner.fokus.fraunhofer.de (burner [10.147.65.166]) by mailhub.fokus.fraunhofer.de (8.11.6p2/8.11.6) with ESMTP id l4N9IMF25944; Wed, 23 May 2007 11:18:22 +0200 (MEST) Received: (from jes@localhost) by burner.fokus.fraunhofer.de (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/Submit) id l4N9HNj8025027; Wed, 23 May 2007 11:17:23 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 11:17:23 +0200 From: Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (Joerg Schilling) Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake In-reply-to: <465380B5.1090904@sun.com> Sender: schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de To: jek3@Sun.COM, Garrett.Damore@Sun.COM Cc: psarc-ext@Sun.COM, John.Fischer@Sun.COM, Dermot.McCluskey@Sun.COM, Alan.Coopersmith@Sun.COM Message-id: <465406a3.vVi1c+WPXY5A1RPm%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1179875174.57981.65.camel@sr1-umpk-57> <46537BCB.3050004@sun.com> <46537D72.8080009@sun.com> <46537E17.8050108@sun.com> <465380B5.1090904@sun.com> User-Agent: nail 11.22 3/20/05 Status: RO Content-Length: 915 Joseph Kowalski wrote: > Garrett D'Amore wrote: > > I wonder, though, if these various tools that we use shouldn't fall > > into a consolidation of their own; one that isn't normally installed > > by default, but which developers can easily download if they want it. > Consolidation doesn't enter into it. They are in packages of their own. > > We don't have the infrastructure for the "apt-get" easy download you > propose. Quite a shame that is... :-( If you are talking about auto-fetching the source, there is src-get that allows you to build everything starting from a small shell script. Jörg -- EMail:joerg@schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin js@cs.tu-berlin.de (uni) schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily From schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de Wed May 23 02:23:57 2007 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4N9NvTe024942 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 02:23:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4N9Mgt9001054; Wed, 23 May 2007 02:22:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JIH00719M1UC700@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 23 May 2007 02:22:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com ([192.18.98.34]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JIH00HJCM1S0Z40@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 23 May 2007 02:22:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay22.sun.com (relay22.sun.com [192.12.251.34] (may be forged)) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l4N9MeV2021334; Wed, 23 May 2007 09:22:40 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mms24es.sun.com ([150.143.232.74] [150.143.232.74]) by relay22.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-522363; Wed, 23 May 2007 09:22:40 +0000 (Z) Received: from mms24bas.mms.us.syntegra.com (relay24.mms.us.syntegra.com [192.12.251.70]) by mms24es.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-858440; Wed, 23 May 2007 09:22:40 +0000 (Z) Received: from mailhub.fokus.fraunhofer.de ([193.174.154.14] [193.174.154.14]) by relay24.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-6909227; Wed, 23 May 2007 09:22:39 +0000 (Z) Received: from burner.fokus.fraunhofer.de (burner [10.147.65.166]) by mailhub.fokus.fraunhofer.de (8.11.6p2/8.11.6) with ESMTP id l4N9McF26014; Wed, 23 May 2007 11:22:38 +0200 (MEST) Received: (from jes@localhost) by burner.fokus.fraunhofer.de (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/Submit) id l4N9Ld1j025033; Wed, 23 May 2007 11:21:39 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 11:21:39 +0200 From: Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (Joerg Schilling) Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake In-reply-to: Sender: schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de To: Paul.Jakma@sun.com, john.fischer@sun.com Cc: psarc-ext@sun.com, Dermot.McCluskey@sun.com Message-id: <465407a3.jSGtt27B3qFSmvCV%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1179875174.57981.65.camel@sr1-umpk-57> User-Agent: nail 11.22 3/20/05 Status: RO Content-Length: 731 Paul Jakma wrote: > Presuming automake really does need to be in the WOS, then how come you > don't also want to deliver autoconf and libtool? > > It seems slightly odd to deliver just one piece of the GNU build-system > trinity to the WOS. That doesn't make much sense from a Solaris POV - > sounds like you're scratching some arbitrary, present-day itch of the > JDS-consolidation delivery process.. +1 Jörg -- EMail:joerg@schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin js@cs.tu-berlin.de (uni) schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily From schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de Wed May 23 03:37:01 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4NAb0wM025953 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 03:37:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4NAZeVh003877; Wed, 23 May 2007 18:35:41 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JIH00E03PFGRT00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 23 May 2007 03:35:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sca-ea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.43.25]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JIH00HBVPFF0U90@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 23 May 2007 03:35:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay43i.sun.com ([192.5.209.74]) by sca-ea-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l4NAVDqh018456; Wed, 23 May 2007 10:35:39 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mms48es.sun.com ([160.41.221.231] [160.41.221.231]) by relay43i.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-134307; Wed, 23 May 2007 10:35:39 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay42i.sun.com ([192.5.209.72] [192.5.209.72]) by mms48es.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-1542962; Wed, 23 May 2007 10:35:39 +0000 (Z) Received: from mailhub.fokus.fraunhofer.de ([193.174.154.14] [193.174.154.14]) by relay4i.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-316859; Wed, 23 May 2007 10:35:38 +0000 (Z) Received: from burner.fokus.fraunhofer.de (burner [10.147.65.166]) by mailhub.fokus.fraunhofer.de (8.11.6p2/8.11.6) with ESMTP id l4NAZbF26930; Wed, 23 May 2007 12:35:37 +0200 (MEST) Received: (from jes@localhost) by burner.fokus.fraunhofer.de (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/Submit) id l4NAYb1n025087; Wed, 23 May 2007 12:34:37 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 12:34:37 +0200 From: Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (Joerg Schilling) Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake In-reply-to: Sender: schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de To: Nicolas.Williams@sun.com, daleg@elemental.org Cc: psarc-ext@sun.com, John.Fischer@sun.com, Garrett.Damore@sun.com, Dermot.McCluskey@sun.com, alan.coopersmith@sun.com Message-id: <465418bd.zGSCVgP80JlSE3Hr%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1179875174.57981.65.camel@sr1-umpk-57> <46537BCB.3050004@sun.com> <46537D72.8080009@sun.com> <46537E17.8050108@sun.com> <20070522233851.GD23226@Sun.COM> <4653B989.7060604@sun.com> <20070523040108.GH23226@Sun.COM> User-Agent: nail 11.22 3/20/05 Status: RO Content-Length: 959 Dale Ghent wrote: > On May 23, 2007, at 12:01 AM, Nicolas Williams wrote: > > > So? How do you know nothing will ever rely on these tools for > > building? > > I'm sure one could have argued once that the C compiler, make, > > etcetera > > were all developer tools -- and /usr/ccs/bin may be good evidence of > > that. We wouldn't now. Where do Linux distros put these? > > More importantly, what stuff does everyone think Solaris admin have > been putting into a /usr/local/bin for years and years? > There is a reason for not putting development tools into /usr/bin/ but into /usr/ccs/bin Why should this be no longer true? Jörg -- EMail:joerg@schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin js@cs.tu-berlin.de (uni) schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily From schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de Wed May 23 04:12:30 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4NBCTsa026462 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 04:12:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4NBB800014159; Wed, 23 May 2007 19:11:11 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JIH0020BR2KTG00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 23 May 2007 05:11:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.98.43]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JIH00DF0R2JGU50@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 23 May 2007 05:11:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay21.sun.com (relay21.sun.com [192.12.251.14] (may be forged)) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l4NBB649015097; Wed, 23 May 2007 11:11:07 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mms23es.sun.com ([150.143.232.54] [150.143.232.54]) by relay21.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-860805; Wed, 23 May 2007 11:11:06 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay22.sun.com (relay22.sun.com [192.12.251.34]) by mms23es.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-1965045; Wed, 23 May 2007 11:11:06 +0000 (Z) Received: from mailhub.fokus.fraunhofer.de ([193.174.154.14] [193.174.154.14]) by relay22.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-6708029; Wed, 23 May 2007 11:11:05 +0000 (Z) Received: from burner.fokus.fraunhofer.de (burner [10.147.65.166]) by mailhub.fokus.fraunhofer.de (8.11.6p2/8.11.6) with ESMTP id l4NBB4F27413; Wed, 23 May 2007 13:11:04 +0200 (MEST) Received: (from jes@localhost) by burner.fokus.fraunhofer.de (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/Submit) id l4NBA5Y3025096; Wed, 23 May 2007 13:10:05 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 13:10:05 +0200 From: Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (Joerg Schilling) Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake In-reply-to: <200705230428.l4N4SLGr006434@penguin.research.att.com> Sender: schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de To: Nicolas.Williams@sun.com, gsf@research.att.com, Garrett.Damore@sun.com Cc: psarc-ext@sun.com, John.Fischer@sun.com, Dermot.McCluskey@sun.com, Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com Message-id: <4654210d.tfsY9gVL0j9Pp8vV%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1179875174.57981.65.camel@sr1-umpk-57> <46537BCB.3050004@sun.com> <46537D72.8080009@sun.com> <46537E17.8050108@sun.com> <20070522233851.GD23226@Sun.COM> <4653B989.7060604@sun.com> <20070523040108.GH23226@Sun.COM> <4653BF47.6090508@sun.com> <200705230428.l4N4SLGr006434@penguin.research.att.com> User-Agent: nail 11.22 3/20/05 Status: RO Content-Length: 1041 Glenn Fowler wrote: > and from another heretic (although non-gnu and non-solaris) ... > I have never had the luck of downloading two independent gnu packages > that required the consistent auto* versions for the myriad auto* components > each new gnu package seems to require its own auto* sandbox > > now I could be misreading instructions > but I go along with the volatile comment above: > if some auto* version is frozen in /usr, how many real world packages > will actually work with that frozen version? > or are there mechanisms in place to select versions from common wrappers? Glenn, you did come up with a really important point! It may be better not to have these tools available in standard directories. Jörg -- EMail:joerg@schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin js@cs.tu-berlin.de (uni) schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily From schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de Wed May 23 04:14:01 2007 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4NBE0Xs026476 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 04:14:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4NBCjVZ020613; Wed, 23 May 2007 04:12:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JIH00207R5AYP00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 23 May 2007 05:12:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sca-ea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.43.25]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JIH00DGJR59G730@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 23 May 2007 05:12:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay1.sun.com (relay1.sun.com [150.143.103.14] (may be forged)) by sca-ea-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l4N8rH93024653; Wed, 23 May 2007 11:12:45 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mms04es.sun.com ([150.143.104.74] [150.143.104.74]) by relay1.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-1325691; Wed, 23 May 2007 11:12:45 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay2.sun.com (relay2.sun.com [150.143.103.24]) by mms04es.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-397203; Wed, 23 May 2007 11:12:45 +0000 (Z) Received: from mailhub.fokus.fraunhofer.de ([193.174.154.14] [193.174.154.14]) by relay2.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-12334679; Wed, 23 May 2007 11:12:44 +0000 (Z) Received: from burner.fokus.fraunhofer.de (burner [10.147.65.166]) by mailhub.fokus.fraunhofer.de (8.11.6p2/8.11.6) with ESMTP id l4NBCgF27433; Wed, 23 May 2007 13:12:42 +0200 (MEST) Received: (from jes@localhost) by burner.fokus.fraunhofer.de (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/Submit) id l4NBBidt025104; Wed, 23 May 2007 13:11:44 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 13:11:44 +0200 From: Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (Joerg Schilling) Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake In-reply-to: <4653CAE6.5060707@sun.com> Sender: schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de To: jek3@sun.com, daleg@elemental.org Cc: psarc-ext@sun.com, John.Fischer@sun.com, Garrett.Damore@sun.com, Dermot.McCluskey@sun.com, Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com Message-id: <46542170.5F0vj4MHxWyUT5Hu%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1179875174.57981.65.camel@sr1-umpk-57> <46537BCB.3050004@sun.com> <46537D72.8080009@sun.com> <46537E17.8050108@sun.com> <20070522233851.GD23226@Sun.COM> <4653B989.7060604@sun.com> <20070523040108.GH23226@Sun.COM> <4653CAE6.5060707@sun.com> User-Agent: nail 11.22 3/20/05 Status: RO Content-Length: 924 Joseph Kowalski wrote: > Dale Ghent wrote: > > Yes, yes, I'm sure somewhere in the anals of Solaris history there > > were good reasons for doing things this way... > Don't be so sure. > > We have the /usr/bin vs /usr/ccs/bin split only because the compilers > folk and the OS folk at AT&T couldn't get along. The OS folk carved out > /usr/ccs/bin just to give the compiler folk their own playground and get > them out of the way of the OS folk. Yep, New Jersey is one of the most > polluted states in the nation and this is just one example. :-) > Are you sure that this is the reason for the split? Jörg -- EMail:joerg@schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin js@cs.tu-berlin.de (uni) schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily From Darren.Kenny@sun.com Wed May 23 04:16:03 2007 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4NBG3Aj026490 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 04:16:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4NBEo6w020926 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:psarc-ext@sun.com>; Wed, 23 May 2007 04:14:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JIH00I01R8RVX00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 23 May 2007 04:14:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com ([129.156.42.5]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JIH00HIYR8P0YB0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 23 May 2007 04:14:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d1-emea-09.sun.com (d1-emea-09.sun.com [192.18.2.119]) by gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l4NBEnqS016273 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 11:14:49 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-emea-09.sun.com by d1-emea-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JIH00J01R6SIM00@d1-emea-09.sun.com> (original mail from Darren.Kenny@Sun.COM) for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 23 May 2007 12:14:49 +0100 (BST) Received: from [129.150.120.53] by d1-emea-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JIH00HAVR8NWX6B@d1-emea-09.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 23 May 2007 12:14:48 +0100 (BST) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 12:14:44 +0100 From: Darren Kenny Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake In-reply-to: <465418bd.zGSCVgP80JlSE3Hr%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> Sender: Darren.Kenny@sun.com To: Joerg Schilling Cc: Nicolas.Williams@sun.com, daleg@elemental.org, psarc-ext@sun.com, John.Fischer@sun.com, Garrett.Damore@sun.com, Dermot.McCluskey@sun.com, Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com Message-id: <46542224.8060400@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1179875174.57981.65.camel@sr1-umpk-57> <46537BCB.3050004@sun.com> <46537D72.8080009@sun.com> <46537E17.8050108@sun.com> <20070522233851.GD23226@Sun.COM> <4653B989.7060604@sun.com> <20070523040108.GH23226@Sun.COM> <465418bd.zGSCVgP80JlSE3Hr%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.0 (X11/20070508) Status: RO Content-Length: 1723 It was my understanding that there was a very lengthy discussion about the location of s/w and paths, etc. all of which took place on opensolaris.org. This is mainly focused with the move of things from /usr/sfw, but applied to "new" opensource projects also looking to be integrated. This basically came to the (I'm simplifying) conclusion that we should try to remove the "path madness" that already exists on Solaris (many of which aren't even on the default PATH for a user) and put binaries in /usr/bin unless there is a conflict with an existing binary there (e.g. GNU find vs Solaris find), in the case where there is a conflict, the binary should be put in /usr/gnu/bin (I don't know if this name stuck or not), with the same name, so that if a user preferred the "gnu" version of the tools, they could put this directory first on their path. AFAIK, the decision was taken to do each tool individually rather than en-masse to allow for better discussion - and this case is part of that... Darren. Joerg Schilling wrote: > Dale Ghent wrote: > >> On May 23, 2007, at 12:01 AM, Nicolas Williams wrote: >> >>> So? How do you know nothing will ever rely on these tools for >>> building? >>> I'm sure one could have argued once that the C compiler, make, >>> etcetera >>> were all developer tools -- and /usr/ccs/bin may be good evidence of >>> that. We wouldn't now. Where do Linux distros put these? >> More importantly, what stuff does everyone think Solaris admin have >> been putting into a /usr/local/bin for years and years? >> > > There is a reason for not putting development tools into /usr/bin/ > but into /usr/ccs/bin > > Why should this be no longer true? > > Jörg > From casper@holland.sun.com Wed May 23 04:25:01 2007 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4NBP1P8026525 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 04:25:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4NBNkoh022484; Wed, 23 May 2007 04:23:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JIH00J07RNMRE00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 23 May 2007 04:23:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com ([129.159.237.36]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JIH00HEWRNL11C0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 23 May 2007 04:23:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from holland (room101 [129.159.130.93]) by sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7) with ESMTP id l4NBNibX049499; Wed, 23 May 2007 13:23:44 +0200 (MEST) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 13:23:44 +0200 From: Casper.Dik@sun.com Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake In-reply-to: <4654210d.tfsY9gVL0j9Pp8vV%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> Sender: casper@holland.sun.com To: Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (Joerg Schilling) Cc: Nicolas.Williams@sun.com, gsf@research.att.com, Garrett.Damore@sun.com, psarc-ext@sun.com, John.Fischer@sun.com, Dermot.McCluskey@sun.com, Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com Message-id: <200705231123.l4NBNibX049499@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1179875174.57981.65.camel@sr1-umpk-57> <46537BCB.3050004@sun.com> <46537D72.8080009@sun.com> <46537E17.8050108@sun.com> <20070522233851.GD23226@Sun.COM> <4653B989.7060604@sun.com> <20070523040108.GH23226@Sun.COM> <4653BF47.6090508@sun.com> <200705230428.l4N4SLGr006434@penguin.research.att.com> <4654210d.tfsY9gVL0j9Pp8vV%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> Status: RO Content-Length: 1083 >Glenn Fowler wrote: > >> and from another heretic (although non-gnu and non-solaris) ... >> I have never had the luck of downloading two independent gnu packages >> that required the consistent auto* versions for the myriad auto* components >> each new gnu package seems to require its own auto* sandbox >> >> now I could be misreading instructions >> but I go along with the volatile comment above: >> if some auto* version is frozen in /usr, how many real world packages >> will actually work with that frozen version? >> or are there mechanisms in place to select versions from common wrappers? > >Glenn, you did come up with a really important point! Just to add my 2cents: whenever I need autoconf or automake because I am trying to port something to Solaris, I *always* need to get a newer version. It seems to me that shipping such a volatile program with an OS release which may need to work for years is pointless to the extreme. It's almost like creating the date(1) command as follows: cat > date << EOF #!/bin/sh echo `date` EOF Casper From Darren.Kenny@sun.com Wed May 23 04:34:50 2007 Received: from newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (newsunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.245]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4NBYoFI026561 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 04:34:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4NBXSZs034383 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:psarc-ext@sun.com>; Wed, 23 May 2007 05:33:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JIH00K0RS41QA00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 23 May 2007 04:33:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com ([129.156.42.5]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JIH00HO8S400ZA0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 23 May 2007 04:33:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d1-emea-09.sun.com (d1-emea-09.sun.com [192.18.2.119]) by gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l4NBXZwd018939 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 11:33:35 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-emea-09.sun.com by d1-emea-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JIH00E01RZ1JG00@d1-emea-09.sun.com> (original mail from Darren.Kenny@Sun.COM) for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 23 May 2007 12:33:35 +0100 (BST) Received: from [129.150.120.53] by d1-emea-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JIH00HCGS3TX4M5@d1-emea-09.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 23 May 2007 12:33:33 +0100 (BST) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 12:33:26 +0100 From: Darren Kenny Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake In-reply-to: <200705231123.l4NBNibX049499@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> Sender: Darren.Kenny@sun.com To: Casper.Dik@sun.com Cc: Joerg Schilling , Nicolas.Williams@sun.com, gsf@research.att.com, Garrett.Damore@sun.com, psarc-ext@sun.com, John.Fischer@sun.com, Dermot.McCluskey@sun.com, alan.coopersmith@sun.com Message-id: <46542686.3010102@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1179875174.57981.65.camel@sr1-umpk-57> <46537BCB.3050004@sun.com> <46537D72.8080009@sun.com> <46537E17.8050108@sun.com> <20070522233851.GD23226@Sun.COM> <4653B989.7060604@sun.com> <20070523040108.GH23226@Sun.COM> <4653BF47.6090508@sun.com> <200705230428.l4N4SLGr006434@penguin.research.att.com> <4654210d.tfsY9gVL0j9Pp8vV%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <200705231123.l4NBNibX049499@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.0 (X11/20070508) Status: RO Content-Length: 1844 But this is exactly why most autogen scripts that generally are used by maintainers (e.g. /usr/bin/gnome-autogen.sh) search for the version that they like as automake- first. It would make sense to me to deliver at least the most basic version that people need, the latest is usually what /usr/bin/automake points to. Since we're using this to build GNOME we've always kept this up to date, I can't see why this is any different in Solaris - the "stability" is maintained by the fact that if a user still wants to use, for example automake-1.4, then they can call automake-1.4 as opposed to automake. This is exactly how other opensource distros tend to handle this. Darren. Casper.Dik@Sun.COM wrote: >> Glenn Fowler wrote: >> >>> and from another heretic (although non-gnu and non-solaris) ... >>> I have never had the luck of downloading two independent gnu packages >>> that required the consistent auto* versions for the myriad auto* components >>> each new gnu package seems to require its own auto* sandbox >>> >>> now I could be misreading instructions >>> but I go along with the volatile comment above: >>> if some auto* version is frozen in /usr, how many real world packages >>> will actually work with that frozen version? >>> or are there mechanisms in place to select versions from common wrappers? >> Glenn, you did come up with a really important point! > > Just to add my 2cents: whenever I need autoconf or automake because > I am trying to port something to Solaris, I *always* need to get a newer > version. > > It seems to me that shipping such a volatile program with an OS release > which may need to work for years is pointless to the extreme. > > It's almost like creating the date(1) command as follows: > > > cat > date << EOF > #!/bin/sh > echo `date` > EOF > > Casper From Dermot.McCluskey@sun.com Wed May 23 06:03:45 2007 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4ND3jAe027804 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 06:03:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4ND2TPl013779 for <@newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com:psarc-ext@sun.com>; Wed, 23 May 2007 06:02:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JIH00F0DW881D00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@Sun.COM); Wed, 23 May 2007 07:02:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: from gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com ([129.156.42.5]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JIH00C2DW85UKE0@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@Sun.COM); Wed, 23 May 2007 07:02:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from d1-emea-09.sun.com (d1-emea-09.sun.com [192.18.2.119]) by gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l4ND2SUj001636 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 13:02:29 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-emea-09.sun.com by d1-emea-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JIH00F01VU3YX00@d1-emea-09.sun.com> (original mail from Dermot.McCluskey@Sun.COM) for psarc-ext@Sun.COM (ORCPT psarc-ext@Sun.COM); Wed, 23 May 2007 14:02:28 +0100 (BST) Received: from [129.156.220.75] by d1-emea-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JIH00H6WW7RWXMB@d1-emea-09.sun.com> for psarc-ext@Sun.COM (ORCPT psarc-ext@Sun.COM); Wed, 23 May 2007 14:02:16 +0100 (BST) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 14:02:15 +0100 From: Dermot.McCluskey@sun.com Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake In-reply-to: <46542686.3010102@Sun.COM> Sender: Dermot.McCluskey@sun.com To: psarc-ext@sun.com Message-id: <46543B57.3030201@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en-us, en X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1179875174.57981.65.camel@sr1-umpk-57> <46537BCB.3050004@sun.com> <46537D72.8080009@sun.com> <46537E17.8050108@sun.com> <20070522233851.GD23226@Sun.COM> <4653B989.7060604@sun.com> <20070523040108.GH23226@Sun.COM> <4653BF47.6090508@sun.com> <200705230428.l4N4SLGr006434@penguin.research.att.com> <4654210d.tfsY9gVL0j9Pp8vV%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <200705231123.l4NBNibX049499@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> <46542686.3010102@Sun.COM> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; SunOS sun4u; en-US; rv:1.7) Gecko/20070109 Status: RO Content-Length: 1367 If I may try to address a number of the outstanding discussion points in one mail: - does it belong in /usr? Attracting developers is a big enough goal to justify adding this in /usr for their convenience. As Alan has said, it would also be useful for other Sun consolidations like X. - what about the other auto tools? They're on the way: libtool & co will be submitted soon. The only relevant "umbrella" case is probably PSARC/2007/047, /usr/gnu. The present case is also related to the Solaris Modernisation project and the Freeware Strategic team. - should "automake -> automake-1.10", etc links be provided? I take Joe's point that the links should have been listed as Volatile. So, is there value in providing these links at all? In our experience in JDS, most pkgs will happily build with whatever latest version they find first and only a very small number of pkgs explicitly require a specific older version. It's also normal practise in other distros to have the links. So, as a convenience, it is worthwhile. - use version number in pkg name? Although SUNWgnu-automake-110 is ugly, it has already been stated that having multiple instances of SUNWgnu-automake would not work. Also, SFW tend not to use the software's version in the PKG VERSION, but this could probably have been overcome if needed. Dermot From gww@eng.sun.com Wed May 23 07:20:49 2007 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4NEKn3a028859 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 07:20:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4NEJaRw000043 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:psarc-ext@Sun.COM>; Wed, 23 May 2007 07:19:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JIH00D01ZSNIG00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for psarc-ext@Sun.COM (ORCPT psarc-ext@Sun.COM); Wed, 23 May 2007 07:19:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail3mpk.sfbay.Sun.COM ([129.146.11.26]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JIH00CMZZSN5O20@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for psarc-ext@Sun.COM (ORCPT psarc-ext@Sun.COM); Wed, 23 May 2007 07:19:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from marduk.eng.sun.com (marduk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.108.224]) by engmail3mpk.sfbay.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4NEJXGe014735; Wed, 23 May 2007 07:19:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from marduk.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by marduk.eng.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l4NELaCm016564; Wed, 23 May 2007 07:21:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from gww@localhost) by marduk.eng.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.11/Submit) id l4NELaRw016563; Wed, 23 May 2007 07:21:36 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 07:21:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Gary Winiger Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake To: Nicolas.Williams@Sun.COM, Garrett.Damore@Sun.COM Cc: Alan.Coopersmith@Sun.COM, John.Fischer@Sun.COM, psarc-ext@Sun.COM, Dermot.McCluskey@Sun.COM Message-id: <200705231421.l4NELaRw016563@marduk.eng.sun.com> Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 Status: RO Content-Length: 419 > > > No, we should want this in /bin. Lots of folks build open source > > without being developers. cc, gcc, autoconf, make, gmake, ... all > > should be in /bin. > > > > My point is that unlike gcc, cc, gmake, ... the automake/autoconf > toolchain is _only_ needed by _developers_. So you're talking about which meta-cluster. Hiding things in unexpected places (/usr/ccs/* ;-) doesn't seem right. Gary.. From alan.coopersmith@sun.com Wed May 23 07:33:00 2007 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4NEX0gu029394 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 07:33:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4NEVlHi003134 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:psarc-ext@sun.com>; Wed, 23 May 2007 07:31:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JII00E0I0CYLA00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 23 May 2007 07:31:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sfbaymail1sca.SFBay.Sun.COM ([129.145.154.35]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JII00CQW0CY5S40@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 23 May 2007 07:31:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.0.101] (vpn-129-150-18-229.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.18.229]) by sfbaymail1sca.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4NEVgxJ020135; Wed, 23 May 2007 07:31:44 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 07:30:34 -0700 From: Alan Coopersmith Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake In-reply-to: <46543B57.3030201@Sun.COM> To: Dermot.McCluskey@sun.com Cc: psarc-ext@sun.com Message-id: <4654500A.1050807@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1179875174.57981.65.camel@sr1-umpk-57> <46537BCB.3050004@sun.com> <46537D72.8080009@sun.com> <46537E17.8050108@sun.com> <20070522233851.GD23226@Sun.COM> <4653B989.7060604@sun.com> <20070523040108.GH23226@Sun.COM> <4653BF47.6090508@sun.com> <200705230428.l4N4SLGr006434@penguin.research.att.com> <4654210d.tfsY9gVL0j9Pp8vV%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <200705231123.l4NBNibX049499@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> <46542686.3010102@Sun.COM> <46543B57.3030201@Sun.COM> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (X11/20060602) Status: RO Content-Length: 812 Dermot.McCluskey@Sun.COM wrote: > - use version number in pkg name? > Although SUNWgnu-automake-110 is ugly, it has already been > stated that having multiple instances of SUNWgnu-automake > would not work. Also, SFW tend not to use the software's > version in the PKG VERSION, but this could probably have been > overcome if needed. I'd vote against making package VERSION ever look anything remotely like the the upstream's package version, due to the inability to change that in patches. (Says someone who is tired of explaining "Yes, you really do have Xorg 7.2 in S10U4, even though pkginfo says 6.8 - the patches that updated to newer versions can't change pkginfo versions.") -- -Alan Coopersmith- alan.coopersmith@sun.com Sun Microsystems, Inc. - X Window System Engineering From Darren.Moffat@sun.com Wed May 23 07:35:24 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4NEZNgK029421 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 07:35:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4NEY5lJ029505 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:psarc-ext@sun.com>; Wed, 23 May 2007 15:34:10 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JII00E0H0GUQS00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@Sun.COM); Wed, 23 May 2007 07:34:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com ([129.156.42.6]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JII00C1O0GS5R50@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@Sun.COM); Wed, 23 May 2007 07:34:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d1-emea-09.sun.com ([192.18.2.119]) by gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l4NEY4JA004213 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 14:34:04 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-emea-09.sun.com by d1-emea-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JII00A01092SN00@d1-emea-09.sun.com> (original mail from Darren.Moffat@Sun.COM) for psarc-ext@Sun.COM (ORCPT psarc-ext@Sun.COM); Wed, 23 May 2007 15:34:04 +0100 (BST) Received: from [129.156.173.21] by d1-emea-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JII00K7Z0GELB00@d1-emea-09.sun.com>; Wed, 23 May 2007 15:33:51 +0100 (BST) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 15:33:50 +0100 From: Darren J Moffat Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake In-reply-to: <200705231421.l4NELaRw016563@marduk.eng.sun.com> Sender: Darren.Moffat@sun.com To: Gary Winiger Cc: Nicolas.Williams@sun.com, Garrett.Damore@sun.com, John.Fischer@sun.com, psarc-ext@sun.com, Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com, Dermot.McCluskey@sun.com Message-id: <465450CE.9030103@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200705231421.l4NELaRw016563@marduk.eng.sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.0 (X11/20070424) Status: RO Content-Length: 555 Gary Winiger wrote: >>> No, we should want this in /bin. Lots of folks build open source >>> without being developers. cc, gcc, autoconf, make, gmake, ... all >>> should be in /bin. >>> >> My point is that unlike gcc, cc, gmake, ... the automake/autoconf >> toolchain is _only_ needed by _developers_. > > So you're talking about which meta-cluster. Hiding things > in unexpected places (/usr/ccs/* ;-) doesn't seem right. Metaclusters are a concept which is only relevant to the Solaris Express OpenSolaris distribution. -- Darren J Moffat From alan.coopersmith@Sun.COM Wed May 23 07:36:57 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4NEau3J029454 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 07:36:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4NEZeD3014124; Wed, 23 May 2007 22:35:41 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JII00E0B0JFXU00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 23 May 2007 07:35:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sfbaymail1sca.SFBay.Sun.COM ([129.145.154.35]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JII00C9B0JD5O50@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 23 May 2007 07:35:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.0.101] (vpn-129-150-18-229.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.18.229]) by sfbaymail1sca.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4NEZWVA022159; Wed, 23 May 2007 07:35:34 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 07:34:23 -0700 From: Alan Coopersmith Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake In-reply-to: <200705230725.l4N7PEfE056229@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> To: Casper.Dik@Sun.COM Cc: John Plocher , Joseph Kowalski , Dale Ghent , John.Fischer@Sun.COM, psarc-ext@Sun.COM, "Garrett D'Amore" , Dermot McCluskey Message-id: <465450EF.7060000@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1179875174.57981.65.camel@sr1-umpk-57> <46537BCB.3050004@sun.com> <46537D72.8080009@sun.com> <46537E17.8050108@sun.com> <20070522233851.GD23226@Sun.COM> <4653B989.7060604@sun.com> <20070523040108.GH23226@Sun.COM> <4653CAE6.5060707@sun.com> <4653CFC0.6020708@Sun.Com> <4653E704.7000200@sun.com> <200705230725.l4N7PEfE056229@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (X11/20060602) Status: RO Content-Length: 1002 Casper.Dik@Sun.COM wrote: >> John Plocher wrote: >>> I would also suggest /not/ binding the version name into the >>> package name, but instead using the package VERSION mechanism >>> with a "smart" pkgmap that is version aware and MAXINST != 1. >> I'm fairly sure the Solaris OS installer enforces a "only one >> version of a package can be installed" rule, no matter what >> MAXINST says. > > > It does not really enforce that; in those cases in which packages > failed to be removed completely you would get SUNWpkg.2 files. > > (On upgrades, that is) Perhaps - I suppose I really meant "...can be installed by the OS installer". If you have VERSION=1.9 of SUNWautomake in an earlier version of the WOS, and deliver VERSION=1.10 to the WOS docks, it replaces the older version in the WOS install images and the WOS installer will attempt to upgrade the old one to the new one. -- -Alan Coopersmith- alan.coopersmith@sun.com Sun Microsystems, Inc. - X Window System Engineering From alan.coopersmith@sun.com Wed May 23 07:38:23 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4NEcMA1029709 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 07:38:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4NEaxei000855 for <@sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com:psarc-ext@sun.com>; Wed, 23 May 2007 15:37:09 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JII00A010LT2P00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 23 May 2007 07:37:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sfbaymail1sca.SFBay.Sun.COM ([129.145.154.35]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JII007890LTDO60@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 23 May 2007 07:37:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.0.101] (vpn-129-150-18-229.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.18.229]) by sfbaymail1sca.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4NEb0UZ022679; Wed, 23 May 2007 07:37:02 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 07:35:51 -0700 From: Alan Coopersmith Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake In-reply-to: <465418bd.zGSCVgP80JlSE3Hr%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> To: Joerg Schilling Cc: Nicolas.Williams@sun.com, daleg@elemental.org, psarc-ext@sun.com, John.Fischer@sun.com, Garrett.Damore@sun.com, Dermot.McCluskey@sun.com Message-id: <46545147.8040407@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1179875174.57981.65.camel@sr1-umpk-57> <46537BCB.3050004@sun.com> <46537D72.8080009@sun.com> <46537E17.8050108@sun.com> <20070522233851.GD23226@Sun.COM> <4653B989.7060604@sun.com> <20070523040108.GH23226@Sun.COM> <465418bd.zGSCVgP80JlSE3Hr%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (X11/20060602) Status: RO Content-Length: 411 Joerg Schilling wrote: > There is a reason for not putting development tools into /usr/bin/ > but into /usr/ccs/bin > > Why should this be no longer true? What do you think this reason is? We can't tell you why it's no longer true without knowing why you think it should ever have been true. -- -Alan Coopersmith- alan.coopersmith@sun.com Sun Microsystems, Inc. - X Window System Engineering From alan.coopersmith@sun.com Wed May 23 07:41:06 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4NEf5YM029848 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 07:41:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4NEdj1F001890 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:psarc-ext@sun.com>; Wed, 23 May 2007 15:39:52 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JII00F070QE9H00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 23 May 2007 07:39:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sfbaymail1sca.SFBay.Sun.COM ([129.145.154.35]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JII00CYK0QD5S50@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 23 May 2007 07:39:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.0.101] (vpn-129-150-18-229.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.18.229]) by sfbaymail1sca.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4NEdiYk023528; Wed, 23 May 2007 07:39:45 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 07:38:35 -0700 From: Alan Coopersmith Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake In-reply-to: <465450CE.9030103@Sun.COM> To: Darren J Moffat Cc: Gary Winiger , Nicolas.Williams@sun.com, Garrett.Damore@sun.com, John.Fischer@sun.com, psarc-ext@sun.com, Dermot.McCluskey@sun.com Message-id: <465451EB.9050904@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200705231421.l4NELaRw016563@marduk.eng.sun.com> <465450CE.9030103@Sun.COM> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (X11/20060602) Status: RO Content-Length: 922 Darren J Moffat wrote: > Gary Winiger wrote: >>>> No, we should want this in /bin. Lots of folks build open source >>>> without being developers. cc, gcc, autoconf, make, gmake, ... all >>>> should be in /bin. >>>> >>> My point is that unlike gcc, cc, gmake, ... the automake/autoconf >>> toolchain is _only_ needed by _developers_. >> >> So you're talking about which meta-cluster. Hiding things >> in unexpected places (/usr/ccs/* ;-) doesn't seem right. > > Metaclusters are a concept which is only relevant to the Solaris Express > OpenSolaris distribution. And the current metaclusters there are increasingly irrelevant. (Developers need man pages but end users don't? Maybe in the days when end users got the 105Mb disks and only developers got the 330Mb disks, but why now?) -- -Alan Coopersmith- alan.coopersmith@sun.com Sun Microsystems, Inc. - X Window System Engineering From carlsonj@phorcys.east.sun.com Wed May 23 08:13:59 2007 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4NFDxhj001403 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 08:13:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4NFCgMS017513; Wed, 23 May 2007 08:12:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JII004232966600@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 23 May 2007 09:12:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com ([129.148.174.143]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JII00M4O29594E0@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 23 May 2007 09:12:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l4NFCdhR002301; Wed, 23 May 2007 11:12:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from carlsonj@localhost) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1/Submit) id l4NFCdD8002298; Wed, 23 May 2007 11:12:39 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 11:12:39 -0400 From: James Carlson Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake In-reply-to: <465450CE.9030103@Sun.COM> To: Darren J Moffat Cc: Gary Winiger , John.Fischer@sun.com, Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com, psarc-ext@sun.com, Garrett.Damore@sun.com, Dermot.McCluskey@sun.com Message-id: <18004.23015.690776.436207@gargle.gargle.HOWL> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: VM 7.01 under Emacs 21.3.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200705231421.l4NELaRw016563@marduk.eng.sun.com> <465450CE.9030103@Sun.COM> Status: RO Content-Length: 1582 Darren J Moffat writes: > Gary Winiger wrote: > >>> No, we should want this in /bin. Lots of folks build open source > >>> without being developers. cc, gcc, autoconf, make, gmake, ... all > >>> should be in /bin. > >>> > >> My point is that unlike gcc, cc, gmake, ... the automake/autoconf > >> toolchain is _only_ needed by _developers_. > > > > So you're talking about which meta-cluster. Hiding things > > in unexpected places (/usr/ccs/* ;-) doesn't seem right. > > Metaclusters are a concept which is only relevant to the Solaris Express > OpenSolaris distribution. Sure ... but the underlying point is that administrators can remove packages that they decide they don't want. In general, the assertion that Gary's making (and with which I agree) is that an installer ought to provide the sort of flexibility that's desired here, rather than squirrelling away the binary in some hard-to-find place. I'm rather surprised by the notion that we need to deliver multiple versions of automake. I've certainly never had any problem myself in running whatever version happens to be installed on a system, provided that it doesn't come from a museum. Are there any special cases that can be cited here? I'd like to know more details before creating some sort of /usr/bin/automake/* forest -- that may be solving a problem that doesn't exist. -- James Carlson, Solaris Networking Sun Microsystems / 1 Network Drive 71.232W Vox +1 781 442 2084 MS UBUR02-212 / Burlington MA 01803-2757 42.496N Fax +1 781 442 1677 From Dermot.McCluskey@sun.com Wed May 23 08:28:12 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4NFSBXV001587 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 08:28:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4NFQpvi000569 for <@newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com:psarc-ext@sun.com>; Wed, 23 May 2007 23:26:58 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JII0050N2WYPN00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 23 May 2007 09:26:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com ([129.156.42.6]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JII005GW2WW0X00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 23 May 2007 09:26:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from d1-emea-10.sun.com ([192.18.2.120]) by gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l4NFQucE011867 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 15:26:56 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-emea-10.sun.com by d1-emea-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JII00D012VZ0Z00@d1-emea-10.sun.com> (original mail from Dermot.McCluskey@Sun.COM) for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 23 May 2007 16:26:56 +0100 (BST) Received: from [129.156.220.75] by d1-emea-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JII001OB2WVEQR6@d1-emea-10.sun.com>; Wed, 23 May 2007 16:26:56 +0100 (BST) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 16:26:55 +0100 From: Dermot.McCluskey@sun.com Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake In-reply-to: <18004.23015.690776.436207@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Sender: Dermot.McCluskey@sun.com To: James Carlson Cc: Darren J Moffat , Gary Winiger , John.Fischer@sun.com, Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com, psarc-ext@sun.com, Garrett.Damore@sun.com Message-id: <46545D3F.3030404@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en-us, en X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200705231421.l4NELaRw016563@marduk.eng.sun.com> <465450CE.9030103@Sun.COM> <18004.23015.690776.436207@gargle.gargle.HOWL> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; SunOS sun4u; en-US; rv:1.7) Gecko/20070109 Status: RO Content-Length: 810 >I'm rather surprised by the notion that we need to deliver multiple >versions of automake. I've certainly never had any problem myself in >running whatever version happens to be installed on a system, provided >that it doesn't come from a museum. Are there any special cases that >can be cited here? I'd like to know more details before creating some >sort of /usr/bin/automake/* forest -- that may be solving a problem >that doesn't exist. > > In JDS, gphoto2 (Digital Camera Utility) and virt-manager (Virtual Machine Manager) are known to explicity require automake 1.9. As can be seen from the fact that RHEL installs 5 versions of Automake by default, this is a common enough problem, although I would hope (but cannot guarantee) we won't ever need more than 2 simultaneous versions. - Dermot From schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de Wed May 23 08:44:58 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4NFivKs001831 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 08:44:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4NFhg3D026562; Wed, 23 May 2007 16:43:42 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JII007033OR9200@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 23 May 2007 09:43:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com ([192.18.98.36]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JII005WP3OR0U10@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 23 May 2007 09:43:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay3.sun.com (relay3.sun.com [150.143.103.54] (may be forged)) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l4NFRDNK016869; Wed, 23 May 2007 15:43:39 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mms03es.sun.com ([150.143.104.54] [150.143.104.54]) by relay3.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-1364090; Wed, 23 May 2007 15:43:38 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay3.sun.com (relay3.sun.com [150.143.103.54]) by mms03es.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-78047; Wed, 23 May 2007 15:43:38 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay43i.sun.com ([192.5.209.74] [192.5.209.74]) by relay3.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-12313426; Wed, 23 May 2007 15:43:38 +0000 (Z) Received: from mailhub.fokus.fraunhofer.de ([193.174.154.14] [193.174.154.14]) by relay4i.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-1119086; Wed, 23 May 2007 15:43:37 +0000 (Z) Received: from burner.fokus.fraunhofer.de (burner [10.147.65.166]) by mailhub.fokus.fraunhofer.de (8.11.6p2/8.11.6) with ESMTP id l4NFhaF00744; Wed, 23 May 2007 17:43:36 +0200 (MEST) Received: (from jes@localhost) by burner.fokus.fraunhofer.de (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/Submit) id l4NFgbpt007604; Wed, 23 May 2007 17:42:37 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 17:42:37 +0200 From: Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (Joerg Schilling) Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake In-reply-to: <46545147.8040407@sun.com> Sender: schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de To: alan.coopersmith@sun.com Cc: psarc-ext@sun.com, John.Fischer@sun.com, Garrett.Damore@sun.com, Dermot.McCluskey@sun.com Message-id: <465460ed.TYGsBzdlAuaHCrMg%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1179875174.57981.65.camel@sr1-umpk-57> <46537BCB.3050004@sun.com> <46537D72.8080009@sun.com> <46537E17.8050108@sun.com> <20070522233851.GD23226@Sun.COM> <4653B989.7060604@sun.com> <20070523040108.GH23226@Sun.COM> <465418bd.zGSCVgP80JlSE3Hr%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <46545147.8040407@sun.com> User-Agent: nail 11.22 3/20/05 Status: RO Content-Length: 799 Alan Coopersmith wrote: > Joerg Schilling wrote: > > There is a reason for not putting development tools into /usr/bin/ > > but into /usr/ccs/bin > > > > Why should this be no longer true? > > What do you think this reason is? We can't tell you why it's > no longer true without knowing why you think it should ever have > been true. I thought this was to have development tools in a separate PATH. Do you believe this was an accident? Do you know of other reasons? Jörg -- EMail:joerg@schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin js@cs.tu-berlin.de (uni) schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily From carlsonj@phorcys.east.sun.com Wed May 23 08:54:35 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4NFsYpJ002403 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 08:54:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4NFrIWo029945; Wed, 23 May 2007 16:53:19 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JII00L1R44TBZ00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 23 May 2007 08:53:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com ([129.148.174.143]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JII00J0K44SEN50@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 23 May 2007 08:53:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l4NFrFdg002559; Wed, 23 May 2007 11:53:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from carlsonj@localhost) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1/Submit) id l4NFrF4U002556; Wed, 23 May 2007 11:53:15 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 11:53:14 -0400 From: James Carlson Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake In-reply-to: <46545D3F.3030404@Sun.COM> To: Dermot.McCluskey@sun.com Cc: John.Fischer@sun.com, Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com, Gary Winiger , psarc-ext@sun.com, Garrett.Damore@sun.com Message-id: <18004.25450.887289.29487@gargle.gargle.HOWL> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: VM 7.01 under Emacs 21.3.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200705231421.l4NELaRw016563@marduk.eng.sun.com> <465450CE.9030103@Sun.COM> <18004.23015.690776.436207@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <46545D3F.3030404@Sun.COM> Status: RO Content-Length: 1156 Dermot.McCluskey@Sun.COM writes: > In JDS, gphoto2 (Digital Camera Utility) and virt-manager > (Virtual Machine Manager) are known to explicity require > automake 1.9. Thanks ... but I actually wanted to know technically what the constraint was, rather than just knowing that some developer had issued a demand. If the issue is that only version 1.9 -- no greater and no less -- can work, then is this an error in gphoto2 (they use stuff they shouldn't have) or in automake (they change stuff they shouldn't)? If the issue is that you need 1.9 or better, then that's just an argument to make sure we keep the newest one available. > As can be seen from the fact that RHEL installs 5 versions > of Automake by default, this is a common enough problem, > although I would hope (but cannot guarantee) we won't ever > need more than 2 simultaneous versions. I'd be nice to have /usr/$epithet to contain these sorts of things. :-/ -- James Carlson, Solaris Networking Sun Microsystems / 1 Network Drive 71.232W Vox +1 781 442 2084 MS UBUR02-212 / Burlington MA 01803-2757 42.496N Fax +1 781 442 1677 From Darren.Moffat@sun.com Wed May 23 08:57:59 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4NFvw2Z002450 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 08:57:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4NFuVHK001011 for <@sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com:psarc-ext@sun.com>; Wed, 23 May 2007 16:56:45 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JII00D014AK4800@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 23 May 2007 08:56:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com ([129.156.42.5]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JII007ZS4AIDNE0@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 23 May 2007 08:56:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d1-emea-09.sun.com (d1-emea-09.sun.com [192.18.2.119]) by gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l4NFuf2T027417 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 15:56:42 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-emea-09.sun.com by d1-emea-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JII00A0148FRB00@d1-emea-09.sun.com> (original mail from Darren.Moffat@Sun.COM) for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 23 May 2007 16:56:41 +0100 (BST) Received: from [129.156.173.21] by d1-emea-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JII00KP34AFLB00@d1-emea-09.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 23 May 2007 16:56:39 +0100 (BST) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 16:56:39 +0100 From: Darren J Moffat Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake In-reply-to: <465460ed.TYGsBzdlAuaHCrMg%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> Sender: Darren.Moffat@sun.com To: Joerg Schilling Cc: Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com, psarc-ext@sun.com, John.Fischer@sun.com, Garrett.Damore@sun.com, Dermot.McCluskey@sun.com Message-id: <46546437.3050501@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1179875174.57981.65.camel@sr1-umpk-57> <46537BCB.3050004@sun.com> <46537D72.8080009@sun.com> <46537E17.8050108@sun.com> <20070522233851.GD23226@Sun.COM> <4653B989.7060604@sun.com> <20070523040108.GH23226@Sun.COM> <465418bd.zGSCVgP80JlSE3Hr%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <46545147.8040407@sun.com> <465460ed.TYGsBzdlAuaHCrMg%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.0 (X11/20070424) Status: RO Content-Length: 723 Joerg Schilling wrote: > Alan Coopersmith wrote: > >> Joerg Schilling wrote: >>> There is a reason for not putting development tools into /usr/bin/ >>> but into /usr/ccs/bin >>> >>> Why should this be no longer true? >> What do you think this reason is? We can't tell you why it's >> no longer true without knowing why you think it should ever have >> been true. > > I thought this was to have development tools in a separate PATH. You thought wrongly. > Do you believe this was an accident? No it wasn't an accident. > Do you know of other reasons? Joe Kowalski (jek3) already gave the real and only reason, why can't you just believe what has already been said ? -- Darren J Moffat From Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com Wed May 23 09:28:46 2007 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4NGSkjv002848 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 09:28:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4NGRSd5007443 for <@newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com:psarc-ext@sun.com>; Wed, 23 May 2007 09:27:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JII00B295PWAE00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 23 May 2007 10:27:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sfbaymail1sca.SFBay.Sun.COM ([129.145.154.35]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JII005035PR0U50@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 23 May 2007 10:27:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [192.168.0.101] (vpn-129-150-18-229.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.18.229]) by sfbaymail1sca.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4NGRHZ0017985; Wed, 23 May 2007 09:27:19 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 09:26:08 -0700 From: Alan Coopersmith Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake In-reply-to: <46540584.OjEmyNm8hZwReSiC%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> To: Joerg Schilling Cc: Nicolas.Williams@sun.com, Garrett.Damore@sun.com, psarc-ext@sun.com, John.Fischer@sun.com, Dermot.McCluskey@sun.com Message-id: <46546B20.1090608@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1179875174.57981.65.camel@sr1-umpk-57> <46537BCB.3050004@sun.com> <46537D72.8080009@sun.com> <46537E17.8050108@sun.com> <20070522233851.GD23226@Sun.COM> <46540584.OjEmyNm8hZwReSiC%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (X11/20060602) Status: RO Content-Length: 351 Joerg Schilling wrote: > Does this mean you also like to create symlinks from /bin to /usr/ccs/bin/* PSARC/2005/420 already approved moving the binaries from /usr/ccs/bin to /usr/bin and leaving symlinks from /usr/ccs/bin to /usr/bin. -- -Alan Coopersmith- alan.coopersmith@sun.com Sun Microsystems, Inc. - X Window System Engineering From John.Plocher@sun.com Wed May 23 09:45:15 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4NGjEZf003286 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 09:45:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4NGhxNU018134 for <@sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com:psarc-ext@sun.com>; Wed, 23 May 2007 17:44:01 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JII00F0B6HAAO00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 23 May 2007 09:43:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-ea-fw-1.sun.com ([10.4.134.5]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JII00DUW6H4A420@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 23 May 2007 09:43:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d1-sfbay-09.sun.com ([192.18.39.119]) by nwk-ea-fw-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l4NGhqHW022087 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 09:43:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-sfbay-09.sun.com by d1-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JII004016E5KT00@d1-sfbay-09.sun.com> (original mail from John.Plocher@Sun.COM) for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 23 May 2007 09:43:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [129.146.58.87] by d1-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JII002CU6H3DIF7@d1-sfbay-09.sun.com>; Wed, 23 May 2007 09:43:52 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 09:43:49 -0700 From: John Plocher Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake In-reply-to: <4653E439.3010405@sun.com> Sender: John.Plocher@sun.com To: Joseph Kowalski Cc: Dale Ghent , John.Fischer@sun.com, Alan Coopersmith , psarc-ext@sun.com, "Garrett D'Amore" , Dermot McCluskey Message-id: <46546F45.4030300@Sun.Com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1179875174.57981.65.camel@sr1-umpk-57> <46537BCB.3050004@sun.com> <46537D72.8080009@sun.com> <46537E17.8050108@sun.com> <20070522233851.GD23226@Sun.COM> <4653B989.7060604@sun.com> <20070523040108.GH23226@Sun.COM> <4653CAE6.5060707@sun.com> <4653CFC0.6020708@Sun.Com> <4653E439.3010405@sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Macintosh/20070221) Status: RO Content-Length: 3538 Joseph Kowalski wrote: > John Plocher wrote: >> If it is true that there is a maze of different versions >> of automake, all alike, yet different enough that "every" >> consuming project needs its own specific version, then having >> /usr/bin/automake (even as a symlink) seems incomplete. > Incomplete? Incorrect or "bad idea", but I don't see how its incomplete. > Could you eloborate? Incomplete as in how this scales to a "useful to other than JDS" set of automake versions. If the only ones in charge of selecting versions of automake are the JDS team or the OpenSolaris Community, what happens when I (as an individual developer) need a different version? If the answer is to get automake and install it somewhere else, then I'm at a loss as to what /real/ problem this case intends to solve. As it stands, it sounds like this si simply an extrusion of the JDS CBE and not something that can be effectively used by anyone else. If it was intended to be a solution for others to use, I'd expect a list somewhere of the FOSS software that uses automake and the versions of automake that each needs... > This is a nit, but why is "share" appropriate? /usr/lib/ instead of /usr/share works for me. A subdir under /usr/bin fails the LHS/FSSND requirements...) > If you buy this much, we could create: > /usr/bin/automake/ > I don't see that as drastically different from: > /usr/bin/automake- > and the later seems to be fairly standard practice, > and you don't need to type full paths to make it > work. Garrett's point was that a reasonable FOSS development environment would need several to many different versions of automake. Assume for a moment that "all" are needed; this would fill /usr/bin with /usr/bin/automake-1.0 /usr/bin/aclocal-1.0 /usr/bin/automake-1.1 /usr/bin/aclocal-1.1 /usr/bin/automake-1.2 /usr/bin/aclocal-1.2 /usr/bin/automake-1.3 /usr/bin/aclocal-1.3 /usr/bin/automake-1.4 /usr/bin/aclocal-1.4 /usr/bin/automake-1.5 /usr/bin/aclocal-1.5 /usr/bin/automake-1.6 /usr/bin/aclocal-1.6 /usr/bin/automake-1.7 /usr/bin/aclocal-1.7 /usr/bin/automake-1.8 /usr/bin/aclocal-1.8 /usr/bin/automake-1.9 /usr/bin/aclocal-1.9 /usr/bin/automake-1.10 /usr/bin/aclocal-1.10 etc. Is that desirable? Should this design pattern follow for every (any?) other utility we put into /usr/bin? >> I would also suggest /not/ binding the version name into the >> package name, but instead using the package VERSION mechanism >> with a "smart" pkgmap that is version aware and MAXINST != 1. >> This would allow one to install whatever VERSIONS one desires, >> simultaneously, without polluting the pkg name namespace. > One would like to think the above works. By our documentation > I think it even claims to work. I filed a bug on this several years > ago - no action. It doesn't work. So, fix the bug? What is the ARCHITECTURE we are following here? >> The WOS could also deliver a small "binding package" that simply >> made the symlinks between /usr/bin/automake and the version >> de-jour. > Been here also. The WOS has no ability/desire to do this sort of thing. Don't care who creates the package. Architecturally, the package that binds the unversioned names to a specific instance needs to be distinct from the instance packaging. All else is an implementation detail. -John From jek3@sun.com Wed May 23 11:56:01 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4NIu0DJ011088 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 11:56:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4NIsZHD005181; Wed, 23 May 2007 19:54:44 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JII00303CJ82J00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 23 May 2007 12:54:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com ([129.146.17.63]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JII005ACCJ70TE0@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 23 May 2007 12:54:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [129.150.12.53] (vpn-129-150-12-53.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.12.53]) by jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l4NIsfK7585251; Wed, 23 May 2007 11:54:41 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 08:54:36 -1000 From: Joseph Kowalski Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake In-reply-to: <46540584.OjEmyNm8hZwReSiC%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> To: Joerg Schilling Cc: Nicolas.Williams@sun.com, Garrett.Damore@sun.com, psarc-ext@sun.com, John.Fischer@sun.com, Dermot.McCluskey@sun.com, Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com Message-id: <46548DEC.1090204@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1179875174.57981.65.camel@sr1-umpk-57> <46537BCB.3050004@sun.com> <46537D72.8080009@sun.com> <46537E17.8050108@sun.com> <20070522233851.GD23226@Sun.COM> <46540584.OjEmyNm8hZwReSiC%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060925) Status: RO Content-Length: 281 Joerg Schilling wrote: > Does this mean you also like to create symlinks from /bin to /usr/ccs/bin/* > Other way around. We are in the process of moving the commands to /usr/bin (and modifying the man pages accordingly) and leaving symlinks behind for compatibility. - jek3 From jek3@sun.com Wed May 23 11:58:01 2007 Received: from newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (newsunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.245]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4NIw1dT011127 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 11:58:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4NIuYfI005503; Wed, 23 May 2007 12:56:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JII00E03CMM9V00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 23 May 2007 11:56:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com ([129.146.17.63]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JII006U1CMLDYB0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 23 May 2007 11:56:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [129.150.12.53] (vpn-129-150-12-53.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.12.53]) by jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l4NIuiMW585800; Wed, 23 May 2007 11:56:44 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 08:56:39 -1000 From: Joseph Kowalski Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake In-reply-to: <465406a3.vVi1c+WPXY5A1RPm%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> To: Joerg Schilling Cc: Garrett.Damore@sun.com, psarc-ext@sun.com, John.Fischer@sun.com, Dermot.McCluskey@sun.com, Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com Message-id: <46548E67.7050408@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1179875174.57981.65.camel@sr1-umpk-57> <46537BCB.3050004@sun.com> <46537D72.8080009@sun.com> <46537E17.8050108@sun.com> <465380B5.1090904@sun.com> <465406a3.vVi1c+WPXY5A1RPm%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060925) Status: RO Content-Length: 992 Joerg Schilling wrote: > Joseph Kowalski wrote: > > >> Garrett D'Amore wrote: >> >>> I wonder, though, if these various tools that we use shouldn't fall >>> into a consolidation of their own; one that isn't normally installed >>> by default, but which developers can easily download if they want it. >>> >> Consolidation doesn't enter into it. They are in packages of their own. >> >> We don't have the infrastructure for the "apt-get" easy download you >> propose. Quite a shame that is... :-( >> > > If you are talking about auto-fetching the source, there is src-get that > allows you to build everything starting from a small shell script. > > Jörg > The script is a tiny part of the problem. Its the infrastructure to support it. However, we are getting pretty far off topic here and we aren't going to create such an infrastructure just for automake - we need to only consider options we currently have, not those we could have. - jek3 From Torrey.McMahon@sun.com Wed May 23 12:02:18 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4NJ2Hmx011197 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 12:02:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4NJ10PB014215 for <@sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-EXT@sun.com>; Thu, 24 May 2007 03:01:04 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JII00L11CTQKL00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Wed, 23 May 2007 12:01:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com ([192.18.98.36]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JII00DUECTQAGC0@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Wed, 23 May 2007 12:01:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fe-amer-10.sun.com ([192.18.108.184]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l4NJ12AZ016956 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 19:01:02 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.mail-amer.sun.com by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JII00701CPPO400@mail-amer.sun.com> (original mail from Torrey.McMahon@Sun.COM) for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Wed, 23 May 2007 13:01:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [192.168.1.101] ([69.143.10.104]) by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JII00KOTCTOSFY0@mail-amer.sun.com>; Wed, 23 May 2007 13:01:01 -0600 (MDT) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 15:01:00 -0400 From: Torrey McMahon Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake In-reply-to: <46548E67.7050408@sun.com> Sender: Torrey.McMahon@sun.com To: Joseph Kowalski Cc: Joerg Schilling , Garrett.Damore@sun.com, PSARC-EXT@sun.com, John.Fischer@sun.com, Dermot.McCluskey@sun.com, alan.coopersmith@sun.com Message-id: <46548F6C.3040009@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1179875174.57981.65.camel@sr1-umpk-57> <46537BCB.3050004@sun.com> <46537D72.8080009@sun.com> <46537E17.8050108@sun.com> <465380B5.1090904@sun.com> <465406a3.vVi1c+WPXY5A1RPm%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <46548E67.7050408@sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.0 (Windows/20070326) Status: RO Content-Length: 400 Joseph Kowalski wrote: > The script is a tiny part of the problem. Its the infrastructure to > support it. > > However, we are getting pretty far off topic here and we aren't going > to create > such an infrastructure just for automake - we need to only consider > options we > currently have, not those we could have. Perhaps someone should have a discussion with the people behind automake? From jek3@sun.com Wed May 23 12:06:05 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4NJ641K011216 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 12:06:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4NJ4kEF015380; Thu, 24 May 2007 03:04:47 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JII00F0ZCZX1300@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 23 May 2007 12:04:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com ([129.146.17.59]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JII006PPCZWFKB0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 23 May 2007 12:04:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [129.150.12.53] (vpn-129-150-12-53.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.12.53]) by jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l4NJ4gQq588244; Wed, 23 May 2007 12:04:43 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 09:04:37 -1000 From: Joseph Kowalski Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake In-reply-to: <46542170.5F0vj4MHxWyUT5Hu%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> To: Joerg Schilling Cc: daleg@elemental.org, psarc-ext@sun.com, John.Fischer@sun.com, Garrett.Damore@sun.com, Dermot.McCluskey@sun.com, Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com Message-id: <46549045.4000105@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1179875174.57981.65.camel@sr1-umpk-57> <46537BCB.3050004@sun.com> <46537D72.8080009@sun.com> <46537E17.8050108@sun.com> <20070522233851.GD23226@Sun.COM> <4653B989.7060604@sun.com> <20070523040108.GH23226@Sun.COM> <4653CAE6.5060707@sun.com> <46542170.5F0vj4MHxWyUT5Hu%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060925) Status: RO Content-Length: 1255 Joerg Schilling wrote: > Joseph Kowalski wrote: > > >> Dale Ghent wrote: >> >>> Yes, yes, I'm sure somewhere in the anals of Solaris history there >>> were good reasons for doing things this way... >>> >> Don't be so sure. >> >> We have the /usr/bin vs /usr/ccs/bin split only because the compilers >> folk and the OS folk at AT&T couldn't get along. The OS folk carved out >> /usr/ccs/bin just to give the compiler folk their own playground and get >> them out of the way of the OS folk. Yep, New Jersey is one of the most >> polluted states in the nation and this is just one example. :-) >> >> > > Are you sure that this is the reason for the split? > > Jörg > As sure as a non-AT&T employee can be. Its what I was told by AT&T employees at the time we were doing the SVR3 + SunOS4 -> SVR4 WORK. Technically in a court of law, that's hearsay, but it sure seemed to fit their behavior at the time. Does it matter? Unless we have a good reason *now* for the split, we should just merge them in the interest of being linux-like in minimizing the path. Paths should be used by the OS to offer alternate behaviors. This only restricts access to a few general use (as in non-admin) utilities. - jek3 From jek3@sun.com Wed May 23 12:11:48 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4NJBl86011284 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 12:11:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4NJASMQ016937; Thu, 24 May 2007 03:10:32 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JII00F0HD9IKT00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 23 May 2007 12:10:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com ([129.146.17.63]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JII006D5D9HFKC0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 23 May 2007 12:10:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [129.150.12.53] (vpn-129-150-12-53.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.12.53]) by jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l4NJASXF589927; Wed, 23 May 2007 12:10:28 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 09:10:23 -1000 From: Joseph Kowalski Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake In-reply-to: <46543B57.3030201@Sun.COM> To: Dermot.McCluskey@sun.com Cc: psarc-ext@sun.com Message-id: <4654919F.6040708@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1179875174.57981.65.camel@sr1-umpk-57> <46537BCB.3050004@sun.com> <46537D72.8080009@sun.com> <46537E17.8050108@sun.com> <20070522233851.GD23226@Sun.COM> <4653B989.7060604@sun.com> <20070523040108.GH23226@Sun.COM> <4653BF47.6090508@sun.com> <200705230428.l4N4SLGr006434@penguin.research.att.com> <4654210d.tfsY9gVL0j9Pp8vV%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <200705231123.l4NBNibX049499@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> <46542686.3010102@Sun.COM> <46543B57.3030201@Sun.COM> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060925) Status: RO Content-Length: 646 Dermot.McCluskey@Sun.COM wrote: > - use version number in pkg name? > Although SUNWgnu-automake-110 is ugly, it has already been > stated that having multiple instances of SUNWgnu-automake > would not work. Also, SFW tend not to use the software's > version in the PKG VERSION, but this could probably have been > overcome if needed. In the interest of *maybe* being aligned with future packaging work, I'd suggest putting the version in the name (unique name unfortunately required) and in the PKGVERSION (keeping fingers crossed for more sanity in the future). Note: Just a suggestion - hopefully this case is already resolved. - jek3 From jek3@sun.com Wed May 23 12:14:08 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4NJE7eq011317 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 12:14:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4NJCiSt017930; Thu, 24 May 2007 03:12:50 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JII00M15DDD3Q00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 23 May 2007 12:12:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com ([129.146.17.63]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JII00DMHDDC9ZC0@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 23 May 2007 12:12:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [129.150.12.53] (vpn-129-150-12-53.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.12.53]) by jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l4NJClFE590438; Wed, 23 May 2007 12:12:48 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 09:12:42 -1000 From: Joseph Kowalski Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake In-reply-to: <4654500A.1050807@sun.com> To: Alan Coopersmith Cc: Dermot.McCluskey@sun.com, psarc-ext@sun.com Message-id: <4654922A.4000100@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1179875174.57981.65.camel@sr1-umpk-57> <46537BCB.3050004@sun.com> <46537D72.8080009@sun.com> <46537E17.8050108@sun.com> <20070522233851.GD23226@Sun.COM> <4653B989.7060604@sun.com> <20070523040108.GH23226@Sun.COM> <4653BF47.6090508@sun.com> <200705230428.l4N4SLGr006434@penguin.research.att.com> <4654210d.tfsY9gVL0j9Pp8vV%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <200705231123.l4NBNibX049499@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> <46542686.3010102@Sun.COM> <46543B57.3030201@Sun.COM> <4654500A.1050807@sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060925) Status: RO Content-Length: 867 Alan Coopersmith wrote: > Dermot.McCluskey@Sun.COM wrote: >> - use version number in pkg name? >> Although SUNWgnu-automake-110 is ugly, it has already been >> stated that having multiple instances of SUNWgnu-automake >> would not work. Also, SFW tend not to use the software's >> version in the PKG VERSION, but this could probably have been >> overcome if needed. > > I'd vote against making package VERSION ever look anything remotely > like the the upstream's package version, due to the inability to > change that in patches. (Says someone who is tired of explaining > "Yes, you really do have Xorg 7.2 in S10U4, even though pkginfo > says 6.8 - the patches that updated to newer versions can't change > pkginfo versions.") Opps. Good point. Ignore my previous suggestion. Its early here and I'm only just started my second cup of coffee. - jek3 From jek3@sun.com Wed May 23 12:24:29 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4NJOTmg011420 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 12:24:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4NJND34013469; Wed, 23 May 2007 20:23:13 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JII00507DUPNE00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 23 May 2007 13:23:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com ([129.146.17.63]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JII0055EDUOC900@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 23 May 2007 13:23:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [129.150.12.53] (vpn-129-150-12-53.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.12.53]) by jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l4NJNAm7598821; Wed, 23 May 2007 12:23:10 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 09:23:05 -1000 From: Joseph Kowalski Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake In-reply-to: <465460ed.TYGsBzdlAuaHCrMg%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> To: Joerg Schilling Cc: alan.coopersmith@sun.com, psarc-ext@sun.com, John.Fischer@sun.com, Garrett.Damore@sun.com, Dermot.McCluskey@sun.com Message-id: <46549499.9050904@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1179875174.57981.65.camel@sr1-umpk-57> <46537BCB.3050004@sun.com> <46537D72.8080009@sun.com> <46537E17.8050108@sun.com> <20070522233851.GD23226@Sun.COM> <4653B989.7060604@sun.com> <20070523040108.GH23226@Sun.COM> <465418bd.zGSCVgP80JlSE3Hr%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <46545147.8040407@sun.com> <465460ed.TYGsBzdlAuaHCrMg%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060925) Status: RO Content-Length: 784 Joerg Schilling wrote: > Alan Coopersmith wrote: > > >> Joerg Schilling wrote: >> >>> There is a reason for not putting development tools into /usr/bin/ >>> but into /usr/ccs/bin >>> >>> Why should this be no longer true? >>> >> What do you think this reason is? We can't tell you why it's >> no longer true without knowing why you think it should ever have >> been true. >> > > I thought this was to have development tools in a separate PATH. > > Do you believe this was an accident? > I believe this was the AT&T rationalization. Remember, rationalization is more important than sex. Ever go a full day without a rationalization? :-) Really, does the history matter? The question is does this provide value today. - jek3 From jek3@sun.com Wed May 23 13:30:51 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165] (may be forged)) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4NKUAft012977 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 13:30:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4NKS6wi003894; Wed, 23 May 2007 21:28:13 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JII00201GUZK000@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 23 May 2007 13:28:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com ([129.146.17.63]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JII002U2GUY5L00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 23 May 2007 13:28:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [129.150.12.53] (vpn-129-150-12-53.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.12.53]) by jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l4NKS8uc610613; Wed, 23 May 2007 13:28:09 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 10:28:04 -1000 From: Joseph Kowalski Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake In-reply-to: <46546F45.4030300@Sun.Com> To: John Plocher Cc: Dale Ghent , John.Fischer@sun.com, Alan Coopersmith , psarc-ext@sun.com, "Garrett D'Amore" , Dermot McCluskey Message-id: <4654A3D4.2090506@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1179875174.57981.65.camel@sr1-umpk-57> <46537BCB.3050004@sun.com> <46537D72.8080009@sun.com> <46537E17.8050108@sun.com> <20070522233851.GD23226@Sun.COM> <4653B989.7060604@sun.com> <20070523040108.GH23226@Sun.COM> <4653CAE6.5060707@sun.com> <4653CFC0.6020708@Sun.Com> <4653E439.3010405@sun.com> <46546F45.4030300@Sun.Com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060925) Status: RO Content-Length: 5021 John Plocher wrote: > Joseph Kowalski wrote: >> John Plocher wrote: >>> If it is true that there is a maze of different versions >>> of automake, all alike, yet different enough that "every" >>> consuming project needs its own specific version, then having >>> /usr/bin/automake (even as a symlink) seems incomplete. >> Incomplete? Incorrect or "bad idea", but I don't see how its >> incomplete. >> Could you eloborate? > > > Incomplete as in how this scales to a "useful to other than JDS" set of > automake versions. If the only ones in charge of selecting versions of > automake are the JDS team or the OpenSolaris Community, what happens when > I (as an individual developer) need a different version? If the answer > is to get automake and install it somewhere else, then I'm at a loss as > to what /real/ problem this case intends to solve. > > As it stands, it sounds like this si simply an extrusion of the JDS CBE > and not something that can be effectively used by anyone else. If it > was intended to be a solution for others to use, I'd expect a list > somewhere of the FOSS software that uses automake and the versions of > automake that each needs... OK. I actually agree. I think each one we deliver is for a long time, if not forever. (Dermot's being very optimistic about 2 at a time, IMHO). That said, I don't see this as much of a problem. >> This is a nit, but why is "share" appropriate? > > /usr/lib/ instead of /usr/share works for me. > A subdir under /usr/bin fails the LHS/FSSND requirements...) Oh right, my favorite document. :-) Whatever, its just not "share". (BTW: We've not bound by the FSH - we just need to be aware that it exists.) > >> If you buy this much, we could create: >> /usr/bin/automake/ >> I don't see that as drastically different from: >> /usr/bin/automake- >> and the later seems to be fairly standard practice, >> and you don't need to type full paths to make it >> work. > > > Garrett's point was that a reasonable FOSS development > environment would need several to many different versions > of automake. Assume for a moment that "all" are needed; > this would fill /usr/bin with > > /usr/bin/automake-1.0 > /usr/bin/aclocal-1.0 > /usr/bin/automake-1.1 > /usr/bin/aclocal-1.1 > /usr/bin/automake-1.2 > /usr/bin/aclocal-1.2 > /usr/bin/automake-1.3 > /usr/bin/aclocal-1.3 > /usr/bin/automake-1.4 > /usr/bin/aclocal-1.4 > /usr/bin/automake-1.5 > /usr/bin/aclocal-1.5 > /usr/bin/automake-1.6 > /usr/bin/aclocal-1.6 > /usr/bin/automake-1.7 > /usr/bin/aclocal-1.7 > /usr/bin/automake-1.8 > /usr/bin/aclocal-1.8 > /usr/bin/automake-1.9 > /usr/bin/aclocal-1.9 > /usr/bin/automake-1.10 > /usr/bin/aclocal-1.10 > etc. > > Is that desirable? Should this design pattern follow > for every (any?) other utility we put into /usr/bin? Desirable? Nah,... Acceptable? Yes, to me. Simply because its what the distro's do and it doesn't violate any of the semantics. We have better things to fine tune. (Although I think we just start with 1.9/1.10 and wait for requests for others). I'm not sure where the line is, but I think there are few dependencies further back than 1.7 or 1.8.) >>> I would also suggest /not/ binding the version name into the >>> package name, but instead using the package VERSION mechanism >>> with a "smart" pkgmap that is version aware and MAXINST != 1. >>> This would allow one to install whatever VERSIONS one desires, >>> simultaneously, without polluting the pkg name namespace. >> One would like to think the above works. By our documentation >> I think it even claims to work. I filed a bug on this several years >> ago - no action. It doesn't work. > > So, fix the bug? What is the ARCHITECTURE we are following here? BIG UGLY ARGUMENT. The behavior in question was ARCHITECTUALLY approved for patchadd. It was implemented in pkgadd. I tried very hard to deal with this a couple of years ago. No success. It would be pointless to hold this case hostage to resolve this. Besides, even if it worked, I think your proposal fails the EOU tests. Also, there is precedence - see 2003/321 - Multiple JRE support. // >>> The WOS could also deliver a small "binding package" that simply >>> made the symlinks between /usr/bin/automake and the version >>> de-jour. >> Been here also. The WOS has no ability/desire to do this sort of thing. > > Don't care who creates the package. Architecturally, the package > that binds the unversioned names to a specific instance needs to > be distinct from the instance packaging. All else is an implementation > detail. OK. Agreed in concept. If the rule is "newest always", the best implementation is in a post install script (although there are those listening who I know will disagree). This way all you need to do is add a newer package, and everything is right. > -John - jek3 From laca@sun.com Wed May 23 14:02:26 2007 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4NL2QIW013786 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 14:02:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4NL16q1011026 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:psarc-ext@sun.com>; Wed, 23 May 2007 14:01:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JII0026TIDYN300@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 23 May 2007 14:01:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com ([129.156.42.5]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JII00ILCIDO4W70@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 23 May 2007 14:01:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d1-emea-09.sun.com (d1-emea-09.sun.com [192.18.2.119]) by gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l4NL10Ph012062 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 21:01:00 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-emea-09.sun.com by d1-emea-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JII00G01IATFP00@d1-emea-09.sun.com> (original mail from laca@sun.com) for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 23 May 2007 22:01:00 +0100 (BST) Received: from [129.150.12.192] by d1-emea-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JII00H90IDKWXVD@d1-emea-09.sun.com>; Wed, 23 May 2007 22:00:59 +0100 (BST) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 17:01:06 -0400 From: "Laszlo (Laca) Peter" Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake In-reply-to: <18004.25450.887289.29487@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Sender: Laszlo.Peter@sun.com To: James Carlson Cc: Dermot.McCluskey@sun.com, John.Fischer@sun.com, psarc-ext@sun.com, Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com, Garrett.Damore@sun.com, Gary Winiger Reply-to: Laszlo.Peter@sun.com Message-id: <1179954066.1605.73.camel@loghost> Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc. MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.10.0 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200705231421.l4NELaRw016563@marduk.eng.sun.com> <465450CE.9030103@Sun.COM> <18004.23015.690776.436207@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <46545D3F.3030404@Sun.COM> <18004.25450.887289.29487@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Status: RO Content-Length: 1074 On Wed, 2007-05-23 at 11:53 -0400, James Carlson wrote: > > In JDS, gphoto2 (Digital Camera Utility) and virt-manager > > (Virtual Machine Manager) are known to explicity require > > automake 1.9. > > Thanks ... but I actually wanted to know technically what the > constraint was, rather than just knowing that some developer had > issued a demand. > > If the issue is that only version 1.9 -- no greater and no less -- can > work, then is this an error in gphoto2 (they use stuff they shouldn't > have) or in automake (they change stuff they shouldn't)? automake 1.10 is NOT compatible with 1.9.x. There are many modules that don't make new releases often and have not been updated to work with the latest version of automake. This is not their fault, it's automake's fault. They know that they break compatibility all the time and their "solution" is making sure multiple versions can be installed in parallel. I haven't met a single package in the past couple of years that required anything older than 1.9.x. (Note that 1.9.1 was released in Aug 2004). Laca From John.Plocher@sun.com Wed May 23 14:04:14 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4NL4DCA013877 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 14:04:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4NL2wDf016593 for <@sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com:psarc-ext@sun.com>; Wed, 23 May 2007 22:03:00 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JII00405IGY7O00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 23 May 2007 14:02:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-ea-fw-1.sun.com ([10.4.134.6]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JII002SNIGY5P40@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 23 May 2007 14:02:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d1-sfbay-09.sun.com ([192.18.39.119]) by nwk-ea-fw-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l4NL2vJD010050 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 14:02:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-sfbay-09.sun.com by d1-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JII00B01IDWTH00@d1-sfbay-09.sun.com> (original mail from John.Plocher@Sun.COM) for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 23 May 2007 14:02:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [129.146.58.87] by d1-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JII002M3IGXDHXH@d1-sfbay-09.sun.com>; Wed, 23 May 2007 14:02:57 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 14:02:54 -0700 From: John Plocher Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake In-reply-to: <4654A3D4.2090506@sun.com> Sender: John.Plocher@sun.com To: Joseph Kowalski Cc: John.Fischer@sun.com, Alan Coopersmith , psarc-ext@sun.com, "Garrett D'Amore" , Dermot McCluskey Message-id: <4654ABFE.5000408@Sun.Com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1179875174.57981.65.camel@sr1-umpk-57> <46537BCB.3050004@sun.com> <46537D72.8080009@sun.com> <46537E17.8050108@sun.com> <20070522233851.GD23226@Sun.COM> <4653B989.7060604@sun.com> <20070523040108.GH23226@Sun.COM> <4653CAE6.5060707@sun.com> <4653CFC0.6020708@Sun.Com> <4653E439.3010405@sun.com> <46546F45.4030300@Sun.Com> <4654A3D4.2090506@sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Macintosh/20070221) Status: RO Content-Length: 1188 Joseph Kowalski wrote: > That said, I don't see this as much of a problem. OK, I just wanted to make sure the question was asked. > (Although I think we just start with 1.9/1.10 and wait > for requests for others). I'm not sure where the > line is, but I think there are few dependencies > further back than 1.7 or 1.8.) OK >> So, fix the bug? What is the ARCHITECTURE we are following here? > The behavior in question was ARCHITECTUALLY approved for patchadd. > Also, there is precedence - see 2003/321 - Multiple JRE support. OK as well. > If the rule is "newest always", the best implementation is in a post > install > script (although there are those listening who I know will disagree). This > way all you need to do is add a newer package, and everything is right. This seems to be more of "last installed wins" rather than "newest", unless every postinstall script iterates thru the set of installed versions, and I don't know how to do this when the pkg names are variable... If so, the usage model falls apart: I have 1.9 and 1.10 installed I find I need 1.8 I install 1.8, and now my "other stuff" starts using 1.8 instead of 1.10... -John From John.Plocher@Sun.COM Wed May 23 14:07:59 2007 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4NL7xJl013898 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 14:07:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4NL6i0I010025 for <@newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com:psarc-ext@sun.com>; Wed, 23 May 2007 14:06:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JII00G29IN9PE00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 23 May 2007 15:06:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: from nwk-ea-fw-1.sun.com ([10.4.134.6]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JII005CZIN6CC90@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 23 May 2007 15:06:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: from d1-sfbay-10.sun.com ([192.18.39.120]) by nwk-ea-fw-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l4NL6fxW010486 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 14:06:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-sfbay-10.sun.com by d1-sfbay-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JII00K01IJ6UF00@d1-sfbay-10.sun.com> (original mail from John.Plocher@Sun.COM) for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 23 May 2007 14:06:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [129.146.58.87] by d1-sfbay-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JII00605IN5H8H4@d1-sfbay-10.sun.com>; Wed, 23 May 2007 14:06:41 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 14:06:38 -0700 From: John Plocher Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake In-reply-to: <1179954066.1605.73.camel@loghost> Sender: John.Plocher@Sun.COM To: Laszlo.Peter@Sun.COM Cc: James Carlson , John.Fischer@Sun.COM, Alan.Coopersmith@Sun.COM, Gary Winiger , psarc-ext@Sun.COM, Garrett.Damore@Sun.COM, Dermot.McCluskey@Sun.COM Message-id: <4654ACDE.7010201@Sun.Com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200705231421.l4NELaRw016563@marduk.eng.sun.com> <465450CE.9030103@Sun.COM> <18004.23015.690776.436207@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <46545D3F.3030404@Sun.COM> <18004.25450.887289.29487@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <1179954066.1605.73.camel@loghost> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Macintosh/20070221) Status: RO Content-Length: 448 Laszlo (Laca) Peter wrote: > required anything older than 1.9.x. (Note that 1.9.1 was released > in Aug 2004). Is it sufficient to restrict the copies to X.Y varients or do we need to support multiple X.Y.Z flavors? i.e., can we install 1.9[.0] in the 1.9 tree, and then later replace its bits with those from 1.9.1, such that the stuff found in automake-1.9 is actually the 1.9.1 bits? Or must we have automake-1.9 automake-1.9.1 -John From Nicolas.Williams@sun.com Wed May 23 14:08:25 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4NL8OSK013919 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 14:08:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4NL71NS017804; Wed, 23 May 2007 22:07:08 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JII00405INTGJ00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 23 May 2007 14:07:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from binky.central.sun.com ([129.153.128.104]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JII002DHINS5P50@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 23 May 2007 14:07:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from binky.central.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by binky.central.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l4NL5iv4026673; Wed, 23 May 2007 16:05:44 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from nw141292@localhost) by binky.central.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/Submit) id l4NL5iLr026672; Wed, 23 May 2007 16:05:44 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 16:05:44 -0500 From: Nicolas Williams Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake In-reply-to: <4654ABFE.5000408@Sun.Com> To: John Plocher Cc: Joseph Kowalski , John.Fischer@sun.com, psarc-ext@sun.com, Dermot McCluskey , Alan Coopersmith , "Garrett D'Amore" Message-id: <20070523210543.GA23226@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <20070522233851.GD23226@Sun.COM> <4653B989.7060604@sun.com> <20070523040108.GH23226@Sun.COM> <4653CAE6.5060707@sun.com> <4653CFC0.6020708@Sun.Com> <4653E439.3010405@sun.com> <46546F45.4030300@Sun.Com> <4654A3D4.2090506@sun.com> <4654ABFE.5000408@Sun.Com> X-Authentication-warning: binky.central.sun.com: nw141292 set sender to Nicolas.Williams@sun.com using -f User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.7i Status: RO Content-Length: 568 On Wed, May 23, 2007 at 02:02:54PM -0700, John Plocher wrote: > Joseph Kowalski wrote: > >If the rule is "newest always", the best implementation is in a post > >install script (although there are those listening who I know will > >disagree). This way all you need to do is add a newer package, and > >everything is right. > > This seems to be more of "last installed wins" rather than "newest", > unless every postinstall script iterates thru the set of installed > versions, and I don't know how to do this when the pkg names are > variable... pkgchk -l -p ...? From Garrett.Damore@sun.com Wed May 23 14:10:34 2007 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4NLAYAY014117 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 14:10:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4NL9IWH012987 for <@newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com:psarc-ext@sun.com>; Wed, 23 May 2007 14:09:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JII00G1PIRKVS00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 23 May 2007 15:09:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from nwk-ea-fw-1.sun.com ([10.4.134.6]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JII005DBIRGCD70@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 23 May 2007 15:09:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: from d1-sfbay-10.sun.com ([192.18.39.120]) by nwk-ea-fw-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l4NL9FHJ010772 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 14:09:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-sfbay-10.sun.com by d1-sfbay-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JII00001IOC1900@d1-sfbay-10.sun.com> (original mail from Garrett.Damore@Sun.COM) for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 23 May 2007 14:09:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.251.21] ([76.174.83.55]) by d1-sfbay-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JII006Y2IRFGY53@d1-sfbay-10.sun.com>; Wed, 23 May 2007 14:09:15 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 14:07:55 -0700 From: "Garrett D'Amore" Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake In-reply-to: <1179954066.1605.73.camel@loghost> Sender: Garrett.Damore@sun.com To: Laszlo.Peter@sun.com Cc: James Carlson , Dermot.McCluskey@sun.com, John.Fischer@sun.com, psarc-ext@sun.com, Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com, Gary Winiger Message-id: <4654AD2B.1060306@sun.com> Organization: Sun Microsystems MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200705231421.l4NELaRw016563@marduk.eng.sun.com> <465450CE.9030103@Sun.COM> <18004.23015.690776.436207@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <46545D3F.3030404@Sun.COM> <18004.25450.887289.29487@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <1179954066.1605.73.camel@loghost> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0b2 (X11/20070227) Status: RO Content-Length: 2758 Laszlo (Laca) Peter wrote: > On Wed, 2007-05-23 at 11:53 -0400, James Carlson wrote: > >>> In JDS, gphoto2 (Digital Camera Utility) and virt-manager >>> (Virtual Machine Manager) are known to explicity require >>> automake 1.9. >>> >> Thanks ... but I actually wanted to know technically what the >> constraint was, rather than just knowing that some developer had >> issued a demand. >> >> If the issue is that only version 1.9 -- no greater and no less -- can >> work, then is this an error in gphoto2 (they use stuff they shouldn't >> have) or in automake (they change stuff they shouldn't)? >> > > automake 1.10 is NOT compatible with 1.9.x. There are many modules > that don't make new releases often and have not been updated to > work with the latest version of automake. This is not their fault, > it's automake's fault. They know that they break compatibility > all the time and their "solution" is making sure multiple versions > can be installed in parallel. > > I haven't met a single package in the past couple of years that > required anything older than 1.9.x. (Note that 1.9.1 was released > in Aug 2004). > > Laca > How many people actually use the "default" version on a Linux distro? Are there folks who are not maintainers of these FOSS packages who feel they need automake/autoconf for some reason? What happens when 1.11 comes out? Nearly everyone will switch to it, and whatever we provide will immediately become stale. Yet, it will be impossible to remove 1.10 without major headaches in the future, because of binary compatibility guarantees. The more I think about this, the more strongly I feel that apart from the folks who want it for JDS CBE or X11 building, delivering automake/autoconf to our customers is a mistake; the only people who are likely to want them are folks that: a) have been downloading them and installing them themselves for years (not just on Solaris, but also on Linux, etc.) (these downloads are typically tiny, also... a few megabytes at most) b) are going to curse us for having ancient versions around in a few years c) aren't going to want to use the bundled versions we provide anyway I know there is a push to make Solaris look more and more like a Linux clone. But lets tackle the tools/applications that our end-users (and developers!) need, use, and that won't be biting us in the arse in a couple of years because of compatibility problems/stale versions. I don't think any of the proposers have addressed my concern that there is little upside compared to the cost of this integration. I hope that someone will, before we add something that will become obsolete baggage just a couple of days after it is putback. -- Garrett From schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de Wed May 23 14:21:17 2007 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4NLLHgc014171 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 14:21:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4NLK2Nf012941; Wed, 23 May 2007 14:20:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JII0040VJ9DJ600@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 23 May 2007 14:20:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sca-ea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.43.25]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JII00I7CJ9C4WA0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 23 May 2007 14:20:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay1.sun.com (relay1.sun.com [150.143.103.14] (may be forged)) by sca-ea-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l4NL08Eh015502; Wed, 23 May 2007 21:20:00 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mms02es.sun.com ([150.143.104.34] [150.143.104.34]) by relay1.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-1431161; Wed, 23 May 2007 21:19:59 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay2.sun.com (relay2.sun.com [150.143.103.24]) by mms02es.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-749549; Wed, 23 May 2007 21:19:59 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay42i.sun.com ([192.5.209.72] [192.5.209.72]) by relay2.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-12779721; Wed, 23 May 2007 21:19:59 +0000 (Z) Received: from mailhub.fokus.fraunhofer.de ([193.174.154.14] [193.174.154.14]) by relay4i.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-512715; Wed, 23 May 2007 21:19:58 +0000 (Z) Received: from burner.fokus.fraunhofer.de (burner [10.147.65.166]) by mailhub.fokus.fraunhofer.de (8.11.6p2/8.11.6) with ESMTP id l4NLJvF02841; Wed, 23 May 2007 23:19:57 +0200 (MEST) Received: (from jes@localhost) by burner.fokus.fraunhofer.de (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/Submit) id l4NLIvxx007718; Wed, 23 May 2007 23:18:57 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 23:18:57 +0200 From: Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (Joerg Schilling) Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake In-reply-to: <46549499.9050904@sun.com> Sender: schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de To: jek3@sun.com Cc: psarc-ext@sun.com, John.Fischer@sun.com, Garrett.Damore@sun.com, Dermot.McCluskey@sun.com, alan.coopersmith@sun.com Message-id: <4654afc1.xODEQSuKIlZcDJ/W%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1179875174.57981.65.camel@sr1-umpk-57> <46537BCB.3050004@sun.com> <46537D72.8080009@sun.com> <46537E17.8050108@sun.com> <20070522233851.GD23226@Sun.COM> <4653B989.7060604@sun.com> <20070523040108.GH23226@Sun.COM> <465418bd.zGSCVgP80JlSE3Hr%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <46545147.8040407@sun.com> <465460ed.TYGsBzdlAuaHCrMg%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <46549499.9050904@sun.com> User-Agent: nail 11.22 3/20/05 Status: RO Content-Length: 1128 Joseph Kowalski wrote: > >>> There is a reason for not putting development tools into /usr/bin/ > >>> but into /usr/ccs/bin > >>> > >>> Why should this be no longer true? > >>> > >> What do you think this reason is? We can't tell you why it's > >> no longer true without knowing why you think it should ever have > >> been true. > >> > > > > I thought this was to have development tools in a separate PATH. > > > > Do you believe this was an accident? > > > I believe this was the AT&T rationalization. > > Remember, rationalization is more important than sex. Ever go a full > day without a rationalization? :-) > > Really, does the history matter? The question is does this provide > value today. But then we should also take care of the sources and put e.g. "make" into the ON tree ;-) Jörg -- EMail:joerg@schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin js@cs.tu-berlin.de (uni) schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily From John.Plocher@sun.com Wed May 23 14:22:29 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4NLMSRq014205 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 14:22:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4NLLALY021941 for <@newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com:psarc-ext@sun.com>; Wed, 23 May 2007 22:21:15 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JII00H03JBEZD00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 23 May 2007 15:21:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: from nwk-ea-fw-1.sun.com ([10.4.134.6]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JII005QGJBDCB90@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 23 May 2007 15:21:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from d1-sfbay-09.sun.com ([192.18.39.119]) by nwk-ea-fw-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l4NLLDa7012075 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 14:21:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-sfbay-09.sun.com by d1-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JII00J01J82V600@d1-sfbay-09.sun.com> (original mail from John.Plocher@Sun.COM) for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 23 May 2007 14:21:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [129.146.58.87] by d1-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JII002V6JBCDH3I@d1-sfbay-09.sun.com>; Wed, 23 May 2007 14:21:12 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 14:21:09 -0700 From: John Plocher Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake In-reply-to: <20070523210543.GA23226@Sun.COM> Sender: John.Plocher@sun.com To: Nicolas Williams Cc: Joseph Kowalski , John.Fischer@sun.com, psarc-ext@sun.com, Dermot McCluskey , Alan Coopersmith , "Garrett D'Amore" Message-id: <4654B045.3030908@Sun.Com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <20070522233851.GD23226@Sun.COM> <4653B989.7060604@sun.com> <20070523040108.GH23226@Sun.COM> <4653CAE6.5060707@sun.com> <4653CFC0.6020708@Sun.Com> <4653E439.3010405@sun.com> <46546F45.4030300@Sun.Com> <4654A3D4.2090506@sun.com> <4654ABFE.5000408@Sun.Com> <20070523210543.GA23226@Sun.COM> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Macintosh/20070221) Status: RO Content-Length: 1033 Nicolas Williams wrote: >> versions, and I don't know how to do this when the pkg names are >> variable... > > pkgchk -l -p ...? > It is the ... part that eludes me. I can find out the current "owner" of the link via pkgchk -l -p /usr/bin/automake but I have no way to determine which package is "newer" unless I presume knowledge of implementation details that are not exposed in this case - in particular, how to find the version info in some other package's meta-info or name. Even if I knew where to find the version info via a supported interface, I still would need additional info to be able to do the comparison. (i.e., is v=110 newer than v=191? What do patches do to that version info? ...) This is part of why I suggested that the policy question of "what is the default" be answered by a simple explicit package that can be changed and overridden if local policy dictates rather than inventing a policy enforcement engine and hardcoding it and its embedded policy into every package's postinstall. -John From laca@sun.com Wed May 23 14:27:46 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4NLRjEv014220 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 14:27:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4NLQJ7e023694 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:psarc-ext@sun.com>; Wed, 23 May 2007 22:26:32 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JII0050HJK55600@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 23 May 2007 14:26:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com ([129.156.42.5]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JII00IDWJK44ZD0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 23 May 2007 14:26:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d1-emea-09.sun.com (d1-emea-09.sun.com [192.18.2.119]) by gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l4NLQRfb012746 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 21:26:28 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-emea-09.sun.com by d1-emea-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JII00401JFUY200@d1-emea-09.sun.com> (original mail from laca@sun.com) for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 23 May 2007 22:26:27 +0100 (BST) Received: from [129.150.12.192] by d1-emea-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JII00H2CJJZWX0E@d1-emea-09.sun.com>; Wed, 23 May 2007 22:26:27 +0100 (BST) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 17:26:33 -0400 From: "Laszlo (Laca) Peter" Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake In-reply-to: <4654ACDE.7010201@Sun.Com> Sender: Laszlo.Peter@sun.com To: John Plocher Cc: James Carlson , John.Fischer@sun.com, alan.coopersmith@sun.com, Gary Winiger , psarc-ext@sun.com, Garrett.Damore@sun.com, Dermot.McCluskey@sun.com Reply-to: Laszlo.Peter@sun.com Message-id: <1179955593.1605.81.camel@loghost> Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc. MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.10.0 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200705231421.l4NELaRw016563@marduk.eng.sun.com> <465450CE.9030103@Sun.COM> <18004.23015.690776.436207@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <46545D3F.3030404@Sun.COM> <18004.25450.887289.29487@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <1179954066.1605.73.camel@loghost> <4654ACDE.7010201@Sun.Com> Status: RO Content-Length: 582 On Wed, 2007-05-23 at 14:06 -0700, John Plocher wrote: > Is it sufficient to restrict the copies to X.Y varients Yes. > or do we need to support multiple X.Y.Z flavors? > > i.e., can we install 1.9[.0] in the 1.9 tree, and then > later replace its bits with those from 1.9.1, such that > the stuff found in automake-1.9 is actually the 1.9.1 bits? > Or must we have > > automake-1.9 > automake-1.9.1 No, we don't need this. Consider the automake version numbers as if the "^1\." wasn't there. I.e. 9.x and 10.x are major releases and 9.1 is just a minor release (: Laca From laca@sun.com Wed May 23 14:36:47 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4NLakMo014311 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 14:36:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4NLZF8e001208 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:psarc-ext@sun.com>; Thu, 24 May 2007 05:35:33 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JII00507JZ6X300@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 23 May 2007 14:35:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com ([129.156.42.6]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JII00IKIJZ54WB0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 23 May 2007 14:35:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d1-emea-09.sun.com ([192.18.2.119]) by gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l4NLZTMT000992 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 21:35:29 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-emea-09.sun.com by d1-emea-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JII00801JUH5Q00@d1-emea-09.sun.com> (original mail from laca@sun.com) for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 23 May 2007 22:35:29 +0100 (BST) Received: from [129.150.12.192] by d1-emea-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JII00H17JZ1WX1E@d1-emea-09.sun.com>; Wed, 23 May 2007 22:35:29 +0100 (BST) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 17:35:35 -0400 From: "Laszlo (Laca) Peter" Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake In-reply-to: <4654AD2B.1060306@sun.com> Sender: Laszlo.Peter@sun.com To: "Garrett D'Amore" Cc: James Carlson , Dermot.McCluskey@sun.com, John.Fischer@sun.com, psarc-ext@sun.com, Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com, Gary Winiger Reply-to: Laszlo.Peter@sun.com Message-id: <1179956135.1605.89.camel@loghost> Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc. MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.10.0 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200705231421.l4NELaRw016563@marduk.eng.sun.com> <465450CE.9030103@Sun.COM> <18004.23015.690776.436207@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <46545D3F.3030404@Sun.COM> <18004.25450.887289.29487@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <1179954066.1605.73.camel@loghost> <4654AD2B.1060306@sun.com> Status: RO Content-Length: 1020 On Wed, 2007-05-23 at 14:07 -0700, Garrett D'Amore wrote: > How many people actually use the "default" version on a Linux distro? > Are there folks who are not maintainers of these FOSS packages who feel > they need automake/autoconf for some reason? Maybe not on Linux distros, but on Solaris you need to adjust Makefile.am's or configure.in/configure.ac scripts sometimes, and then you need to run automake/autoconf to regenerate the Makefiles/configure script. > What happens when 1.11 comes out? Nearly everyone will switch to it, > and whatever we provide will immediately become stale. Isn't that true for all 3rd party F/OSS sw we include in Solaris? GNOME 2.6 in Solaris 10... ancient! (; Python 2.4 just landed in Solaris 10 and people already want 2.5.1. > Yet, it will be impossible to remove 1.10 without major headaches in the > future, because of binary compatibility guarantees. We can obsolete it, announce it and remove it. We do that all the time. Python 2.3 is gone from Nevada. Laca From Nicolas.Williams@sun.com Wed May 23 14:45:09 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4NLj8Yh014452 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 14:45:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4NLhfLR028898; Wed, 23 May 2007 22:43:52 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JII0061DKD37100@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 23 May 2007 14:43:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from binky.central.sun.com ([129.153.128.104]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JII002HIKD25P80@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 23 May 2007 14:43:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from binky.central.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by binky.central.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l4NLgU8F026708; Wed, 23 May 2007 16:42:30 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from nw141292@localhost) by binky.central.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/Submit) id l4NLgUGn026707; Wed, 23 May 2007 16:42:30 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 16:42:29 -0500 From: Nicolas Williams Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake In-reply-to: <4654B045.3030908@Sun.Com> To: John Plocher Cc: Joseph Kowalski , John.Fischer@sun.com, psarc-ext@sun.com, Dermot McCluskey , Alan Coopersmith , "Garrett D'Amore" Message-id: <20070523214228.GB23226@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <20070523040108.GH23226@Sun.COM> <4653CAE6.5060707@sun.com> <4653CFC0.6020708@Sun.Com> <4653E439.3010405@sun.com> <46546F45.4030300@Sun.Com> <4654A3D4.2090506@sun.com> <4654ABFE.5000408@Sun.Com> <20070523210543.GA23226@Sun.COM> <4654B045.3030908@Sun.Com> X-Authentication-warning: binky.central.sun.com: nw141292 set sender to Nicolas.Williams@sun.com using -f User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.7i Status: RO Content-Length: 1495 On Wed, May 23, 2007 at 02:21:09PM -0700, John Plocher wrote: > Nicolas Williams wrote: > >>versions, and I don't know how to do this when the pkg names are > >>variable... > > > >pkgchk -l -p ...? > > > > It is the ... part that eludes me. > > I can find out the current "owner" of the link via > > pkgchk -l -p /usr/bin/automake > > but I have no way to determine which package is "newer" > unless I presume knowledge of implementation details > that are not exposed in this case - in particular, > how to find the version info in some other package's > meta-info or name. Even if I knew where to find the > version info via a supported interface, I still would > need additional info to be able to do the comparison. > (i.e., is v=110 newer than v=191? What do patches do > to that version info? ...) > > This is part of why I suggested that the policy question > of "what is the default" be answered by a simple explicit > package that can be changed and overridden if local > policy dictates rather than inventing a policy enforcement > engine and hardcoding it and its embedded policy into every > package's postinstall. Well, given your suggestion I think this can be implemented. The case materials don't specify this, and, arguably, shouldn't have to until the we have to cross the automoake versioning bridge (who knows, we might get lucky and not have to for a while yet). BTW, I don't understand why have separate ARC cases for GNU auto*. It all goes together. Nico -- From carlsonj@phorcys.east.sun.com Wed May 23 14:50:36 2007 Received: from newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (newsunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.245]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4NLoadw014472 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 14:50:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4NLnA3M041923; Wed, 23 May 2007 15:49:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JII0070HKM86A00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 23 May 2007 14:49:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com ([129.148.174.143]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JII00I63KM84WE0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 23 May 2007 14:49:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l4NLnJVf004146; Wed, 23 May 2007 17:49:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from carlsonj@localhost) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1/Submit) id l4NLnJnX004143; Wed, 23 May 2007 17:49:19 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 17:49:19 -0400 From: James Carlson Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake In-reply-to: <4654afc1.xODEQSuKIlZcDJ/W%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> To: Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (Joerg Schilling) Cc: jek3@sun.com, psarc-ext@sun.com, John.Fischer@sun.com, Garrett.Damore@sun.com, Dermot.McCluskey@sun.com, Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com Message-id: <18004.46815.555612.343730@gargle.gargle.HOWL> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: VM 7.01 under Emacs 21.3.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1179875174.57981.65.camel@sr1-umpk-57> <46537BCB.3050004@sun.com> <46537D72.8080009@sun.com> <46537E17.8050108@sun.com> <20070522233851.GD23226@Sun.COM> <4653B989.7060604@sun.com> <20070523040108.GH23226@Sun.COM> <465418bd.zGSCVgP80JlSE3Hr%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <46545147.8040407@sun.com> <465460ed.TYGsBzdlAuaHCrMg%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <46549499.9050904@sun.com> <4654afc1.xODEQSuKIlZcDJ/W%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> Status: RO Content-Length: 992 Joerg Schilling writes: > But then we should also take care of the sources and put e.g. "make" into the ON > tree ;-) This looks like a fundamental misunderstanding to me. There is no requirement that the sources for things in /usr/bin are all delivered from ON -- they're not all from ON, nor have they historically been so -- or that more generally the consolidation has something to do with the file system layout. The two are fairly independent concepts. I'd be very much opposed to including 'make' into ON. It looks like baggage to me. The things that belong in ON are (properly, at least) those that are related to the kernel and must be built together with it. (Yes, it's true that some of what's in ON today is also baggage. We just don't need more.) -- James Carlson, Solaris Networking Sun Microsystems / 1 Network Drive 71.232W Vox +1 781 442 2084 MS UBUR02-212 / Burlington MA 01803-2757 42.496N Fax +1 781 442 1677 From jek3@sun.com Wed May 23 15:00:06 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4NM05Ee014836 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 15:00:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4NLwdqU007508; Thu, 24 May 2007 05:58:48 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JII00803L1Z3D00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 23 May 2007 14:58:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com ([129.146.17.63]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JII007OOL1Y8100@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 23 May 2007 14:58:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [129.150.12.53] (vpn-129-150-12-53.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.12.53]) by jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l4NLwjip107508; Wed, 23 May 2007 14:58:46 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 11:58:41 -1000 From: Joseph Kowalski Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake In-reply-to: <4654ABFE.5000408@Sun.Com> To: John Plocher Cc: John.Fischer@sun.com, Alan Coopersmith , psarc-ext@sun.com, "Garrett D'Amore" , Dermot McCluskey Message-id: <4654B911.8020903@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1179875174.57981.65.camel@sr1-umpk-57> <46537BCB.3050004@sun.com> <46537D72.8080009@sun.com> <46537E17.8050108@sun.com> <20070522233851.GD23226@Sun.COM> <4653B989.7060604@sun.com> <20070523040108.GH23226@Sun.COM> <4653CAE6.5060707@sun.com> <4653CFC0.6020708@Sun.Com> <4653E439.3010405@sun.com> <46546F45.4030300@Sun.Com> <4654A3D4.2090506@sun.com> <4654ABFE.5000408@Sun.Com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060925) Status: RO Content-Length: 1261 John Plocher wrote: >> If the rule is "newest always", the best implementation is in a post >> install >> script (although there are those listening who I know will >> disagree). This >> way all you need to do is add a newer package, and everything is right. > > > This seems to be more of "last installed wins" rather than "newest", > unless every postinstall script iterates thru the set of installed > versions, and I don't know how to do this when the pkg names are > variable... > > If so, the usage model falls apart: > > I have 1.9 and 1.10 installed > I find I need 1.8 > I install 1.8, and now my "other stuff" starts > using 1.8 instead of 1.10... You iterate through the known names of the installed systems. We know this because we are in the process of approving the names, probably /usr/bin/automake- If the postinstall script for 1.8, finds something greater than 1.8, it does nothing. If it only finds older than 1.8, then it updates the link. Of course, I think its a legitimate question to ask if the generic name provides value in this *particular* case (although we've at least informally agreed its generally best practice). Actually, to me this seems to be the one big unresolved question wrt this case. - jek3 From jek3@sun.com Wed May 23 15:07:33 2007 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4NM7XvO014874 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 15:07:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4NM6Hum022354; Wed, 23 May 2007 15:06:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JII00M03LEINW00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 23 May 2007 16:06:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com ([129.146.17.63]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JII005HYLEICIB0@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 23 May 2007 16:06:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [129.150.12.53] (vpn-129-150-12-53.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.12.53]) by jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l4NM6Gkg114173; Wed, 23 May 2007 15:06:17 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 12:06:12 -1000 From: Joseph Kowalski Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake In-reply-to: <4654B911.8020903@sun.com> To: Joseph Kowalski Cc: John Plocher , John.Fischer@sun.com, Alan Coopersmith , psarc-ext@sun.com, "Garrett D'Amore" , Dermot McCluskey Message-id: <4654BAD4.5070705@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1179875174.57981.65.camel@sr1-umpk-57> <46537BCB.3050004@sun.com> <46537D72.8080009@sun.com> <46537E17.8050108@sun.com> <20070522233851.GD23226@Sun.COM> <4653B989.7060604@sun.com> <20070523040108.GH23226@Sun.COM> <4653CAE6.5060707@sun.com> <4653CFC0.6020708@Sun.Com> <4653E439.3010405@sun.com> <46546F45.4030300@Sun.Com> <4654A3D4.2090506@sun.com> <4654ABFE.5000408@Sun.Com> <4654B911.8020903@sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060925) Status: RO Content-Length: 537 Joseph Kowalski wrote: > You iterate through the known names of the installed systems. > We know this because we are in the process of approving the > names, probably /usr/bin/automake- BTW: This is more "sh code" than one might guess. I can supply a well tested version which has been in use for a couple of years. I think all the bugs are chased out by now. However, since I believe Laca's assertions about commitment stabilities, I thinking more and more that we should just punt on the generic name in this case. - jek3 From Garrett.Damore@sun.com Wed May 23 15:09:18 2007 Received: from newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (newsunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.245]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4NM9IdL014889 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 15:09:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4NM7qQ6045508 for <@newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com:psarc-ext@sun.com>; Wed, 23 May 2007 16:07:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JII00M11LHFUX00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 23 May 2007 16:08:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from nwk-ea-fw-1.sun.com ([10.4.134.6]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JII005ILLHFCH90@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 23 May 2007 16:08:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from d1-sfbay-09.sun.com ([192.18.39.119]) by nwk-ea-fw-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l4NM823L017180 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 15:08:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-sfbay-09.sun.com by d1-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JII00E01LF89U00@d1-sfbay-09.sun.com> (original mail from Garrett.Damore@Sun.COM) for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 23 May 2007 15:08:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.251.21] ([76.174.83.55]) by d1-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JII002R5LHDDHNI@d1-sfbay-09.sun.com>; Wed, 23 May 2007 15:08:02 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 15:06:42 -0700 From: "Garrett D'Amore" Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake In-reply-to: <1179956135.1605.89.camel@loghost> Sender: Garrett.Damore@sun.com To: Laszlo.Peter@sun.com Cc: James Carlson , Dermot.McCluskey@sun.com, John.Fischer@sun.com, psarc-ext@sun.com, Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com, Gary Winiger Message-id: <4654BAF2.4010207@sun.com> Organization: Sun Microsystems MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200705231421.l4NELaRw016563@marduk.eng.sun.com> <465450CE.9030103@Sun.COM> <18004.23015.690776.436207@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <46545D3F.3030404@Sun.COM> <18004.25450.887289.29487@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <1179954066.1605.73.camel@loghost> <4654AD2B.1060306@sun.com> <1179956135.1605.89.camel@loghost> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0b2 (X11/20070227) Status: RO Content-Length: 1602 Laszlo (Laca) Peter wrote: > On Wed, 2007-05-23 at 14:07 -0700, Garrett D'Amore wrote: > > >> How many people actually use the "default" version on a Linux distro? >> Are there folks who are not maintainers of these FOSS packages who feel >> they need automake/autoconf for some reason? >> > > Maybe not on Linux distros, but on Solaris you need to adjust > Makefile.am's or configure.in/configure.ac scripts sometimes, > and then you need to run automake/autoconf to regenerate the > Makefiles/configure script. > Yikes. This represents a bug in those packages. I hope people are sending those diffs back upstream. If folks have to do this, it really points to a general failure of automake/autoconf to deliver on the promise of portability.... but I digress... > >> What happens when 1.11 comes out? Nearly everyone will switch to it, >> and whatever we provide will immediately become stale. >> > > Isn't that true for all 3rd party F/OSS sw we include in Solaris? > GNOME 2.6 in Solaris 10... ancient! (; > Python 2.4 just landed in Solaris 10 and people already want 2.5.1. > Right, but _everyone_ wants Python runtimes. (Just like e.g. Java.) Only a few people should want automake. > >> Yet, it will be impossible to remove 1.10 without major headaches in the >> future, because of binary compatibility guarantees. >> > > We can obsolete it, announce it and remove it. We do that all the time. > Python 2.3 is gone from Nevada. > This doesn't come for free. Again, I'm suggesting that a cost/benefit assessment be done. -- Garrett From Artem.Kachitchkin@Sun.COM Wed May 23 15:09:50 2007 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4NM9oeV014903 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 15:09:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4NM8Ymr022605 for <@newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com:psarc-ext@sun.com>; Wed, 23 May 2007 15:08:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JII00M09LI7W700@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 23 May 2007 16:08:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from nwk-ea-fw-1.sun.com ([10.4.134.6]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JII005M8LI6CIB0@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 23 May 2007 16:08:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from d1-sfbay-10.sun.com ([192.18.39.120]) by nwk-ea-fw-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l4NM8UWn017213 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 15:08:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-sfbay-10.sun.com by d1-sfbay-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JII00701LHT0A00@d1-sfbay-10.sun.com> (original mail from Artem.Kachitchkin@Sun.COM) for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 23 May 2007 15:08:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [129.146.228.101] by d1-sfbay-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JII006QHLI4GY93@d1-sfbay-10.sun.com>; Wed, 23 May 2007 15:08:29 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 15:08:44 -0700 From: Artem Kachitchkine Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake In-reply-to: <1179954066.1605.73.camel@loghost> Sender: Artem.Kachitchkin@Sun.COM To: Laszlo.Peter@Sun.COM Cc: James Carlson , Dermot.McCluskey@Sun.COM, John.Fischer@Sun.COM, psarc-ext@Sun.COM, Alan.Coopersmith@Sun.COM, Garrett.Damore@Sun.COM, Gary Winiger Message-id: <4654BB6C.10901@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200705231421.l4NELaRw016563@marduk.eng.sun.com> <465450CE.9030103@Sun.COM> <18004.23015.690776.436207@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <46545D3F.3030404@Sun.COM> <18004.25450.887289.29487@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <1179954066.1605.73.camel@loghost> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (X11/20060113) Status: RO Content-Length: 700 > automake 1.10 is NOT compatible with 1.9.x. There are many modules > that don't make new releases often and have not been updated to > work with the latest version of automake. This is not their fault, > it's automake's fault. They know that they break compatibility > all the time and their "solution" is making sure multiple versions > can be installed in parallel. Right. About the concept of parallel install: http://www106.pair.com/rhp/parallel.html in relation to automake: http://sources.redhat.com/ml/automake/2002-01/msg00046.html -Artem. P.S. Havoc Pennington (HP) is also the maintainer of DBus. This explains /usr/lib/libdbus-1.so, /usr/include/dbus-1.0/ and /etc/dbus-1/ :) From John.Plocher@sun.com Wed May 23 15:11:43 2007 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4NMBhWT014932 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 15:11:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4NMAUc3026032 for <@sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com:psarc-ext@sun.com>; Wed, 23 May 2007 15:10:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JII00705LLIKS00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 23 May 2007 15:10:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-ea-fw-1.sun.com ([10.4.134.6]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JII0020JLLI5LB0@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 23 May 2007 15:10:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d1-sfbay-09.sun.com ([192.18.39.119]) by nwk-ea-fw-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l4NMAU1o017400 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 15:10:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-sfbay-09.sun.com by d1-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JII00K01LKUQU00@d1-sfbay-09.sun.com> (original mail from John.Plocher@Sun.COM) for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 23 May 2007 15:10:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [129.146.58.87] by d1-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JII002X9LLGDHOI@d1-sfbay-09.sun.com>; Wed, 23 May 2007 15:10:28 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 15:10:25 -0700 From: John Plocher Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake In-reply-to: <1179956135.1605.89.camel@loghost> Sender: John.Plocher@sun.com To: Laszlo.Peter@sun.com Cc: "Garrett D'Amore" , John.Fischer@sun.com, Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com, Gary Winiger , James Carlson , psarc-ext@sun.com, Dermot.McCluskey@sun.com Message-id: <4654BBD1.9090204@Sun.Com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200705231421.l4NELaRw016563@marduk.eng.sun.com> <465450CE.9030103@Sun.COM> <18004.23015.690776.436207@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <46545D3F.3030404@Sun.COM> <18004.25450.887289.29487@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <1179954066.1605.73.camel@loghost> <4654AD2B.1060306@sun.com> <1179956135.1605.89.camel@loghost> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Macintosh/20070221) Status: RO Content-Length: 483 >> Yet, it will be impossible to remove 1.10 without major headaches in the >> future, because of binary compatibility guarantees. > > We can obsolete it, announce it and remove it. We do that all the time. > Python 2.3 is gone from Nevada. Remember, these interfaces are /Un/committed - they can be removed at any Minor release boundry, and should have no real impact on binary compatibility guarantees, guarantees focused almost completely on Committed interfaces. -John From jek3@Sun.COM Wed May 23 15:15:28 2007 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4NMFSjT014975 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 15:15:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4NMECjD026529; Wed, 23 May 2007 15:14:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JII0000NLROAZ00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 23 May 2007 16:14:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com ([129.146.17.63]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JII005N1LROC9E0@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 23 May 2007 16:14:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [129.150.12.53] (vpn-129-150-12-53.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.12.53]) by jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l4NMEAKD119640; Wed, 23 May 2007 15:14:10 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 12:14:05 -1000 From: Joseph Kowalski Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake In-reply-to: <4654afc1.xODEQSuKIlZcDJ/W%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> To: Joerg Schilling Cc: psarc-ext@Sun.COM, John.Fischer@Sun.COM, Garrett.Damore@Sun.COM, Dermot.McCluskey@Sun.COM, Alan.Coopersmith@Sun.COM Message-id: <4654BCAD.7010408@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1179875174.57981.65.camel@sr1-umpk-57> <46537BCB.3050004@sun.com> <46537D72.8080009@sun.com> <46537E17.8050108@sun.com> <20070522233851.GD23226@Sun.COM> <4653B989.7060604@sun.com> <20070523040108.GH23226@Sun.COM> <465418bd.zGSCVgP80JlSE3Hr%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <46545147.8040407@sun.com> <465460ed.TYGsBzdlAuaHCrMg%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <46549499.9050904@sun.com> <4654afc1.xODEQSuKIlZcDJ/W%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060925) Status: RO Content-Length: 765 Joerg Schilling wrote: >> >> Really, does the history matter? The question is does this provide >> value today. >> > > But then we should also take care of the sources and put e.g. "make" into the ON > tree ;-) > > Jörg > I don't see how this follows and as others have said, the consolidation/management boundaries historically within Sun just aren't worth messing with. There were a couple of paragraphs on this somewhere under the initial set of OpenSolaris policies (in this case maybe apologies), but I don't know where they are today. When I started at Sun some 17 years ago I was very surprised to find that OS (before ON) owned ld while the compiler group owned libm. People still laugh at me for briefly trying to change that. - jek3 From carlsonj@phorcys.east.sun.com Wed May 23 15:17:24 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4NMHOgs014990 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 15:17:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4NMG5l5007160; Wed, 23 May 2007 23:16:08 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JII0070DLUVXN00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 23 May 2007 15:16:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com ([129.148.174.143]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JII002W8LUU5PC0@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 23 May 2007 15:16:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l4NMG5Tl004350; Wed, 23 May 2007 18:16:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from carlsonj@localhost) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1/Submit) id l4NMG5lu004347; Wed, 23 May 2007 18:16:05 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 18:16:05 -0400 From: James Carlson Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake In-reply-to: <4654BB6C.10901@sun.com> To: Artem Kachitchkine Cc: Laszlo.Peter@sun.com, John.Fischer@sun.com, Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com, Gary Winiger , psarc-ext@sun.com, Garrett.Damore@sun.com, Dermot.McCluskey@sun.com Message-id: <18004.48421.338296.538491@gargle.gargle.HOWL> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: VM 7.01 under Emacs 21.3.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200705231421.l4NELaRw016563@marduk.eng.sun.com> <465450CE.9030103@Sun.COM> <18004.23015.690776.436207@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <46545D3F.3030404@Sun.COM> <18004.25450.887289.29487@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <1179954066.1605.73.camel@loghost> <4654BB6C.10901@sun.com> Status: RO Content-Length: 543 Artem Kachitchkine writes: > P.S. Havoc Pennington (HP) is also the maintainer of DBus. This explains > /usr/lib/libdbus-1.so, /usr/include/dbus-1.0/ and /etc/dbus-1/ :) If we ever need more than one incompatible version of that, then I suspect we will indeed have havoc. Those who don't remember libresolv.so.2 ... -- James Carlson, Solaris Networking Sun Microsystems / 1 Network Drive 71.232W Vox +1 781 442 2084 MS UBUR02-212 / Burlington MA 01803-2757 42.496N Fax +1 781 442 1677 From carlsonj@phorcys.east.sun.com Wed May 23 15:20:31 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4NMKUjl015038 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 15:20:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4NMIElj007747; Wed, 23 May 2007 23:18:16 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JII00A01LYF2S00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 23 May 2007 15:18:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com ([129.148.174.143]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JII007FPLYE7W20@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 23 May 2007 15:18:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l4NMIEMW004356; Wed, 23 May 2007 18:18:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from carlsonj@localhost) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1/Submit) id l4NMIE2j004353; Wed, 23 May 2007 18:18:14 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 18:18:13 -0400 From: James Carlson Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake In-reply-to: <4654BAD4.5070705@sun.com> To: Joseph Kowalski Cc: John.Fischer@sun.com, Alan Coopersmith , John Plocher , psarc-ext@sun.com, "Garrett D'Amore" , Dermot McCluskey Message-id: <18004.48549.982420.83651@gargle.gargle.HOWL> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: VM 7.01 under Emacs 21.3.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1179875174.57981.65.camel@sr1-umpk-57> <46537BCB.3050004@sun.com> <46537D72.8080009@sun.com> <46537E17.8050108@sun.com> <20070522233851.GD23226@Sun.COM> <4653B989.7060604@sun.com> <20070523040108.GH23226@Sun.COM> <4653CAE6.5060707@sun.com> <4653CFC0.6020708@Sun.Com> <4653E439.3010405@sun.com> <46546F45.4030300@Sun.Com> <4654A3D4.2090506@sun.com> <4654ABFE.5000408@Sun.Com> <4654B911.8020903@sun.com> <4654BAD4.5070705@sun.com> Status: RO Content-Length: 923 Joseph Kowalski writes: > However, since I believe Laca's assertions about commitment > stabilities, I thinking more and more that we should just punt on > the generic name in this case. I've never seen those sorts of instabilities myself, but if they're correct, then I agree with that. (As for the postinstall, I think Joe might have been referring to me. I think it's an absolutely awful solution. I'd rather see all of the variants delivered by a single package including a pkgmap entry for a symlink if the generic name is useful. That way, you can use a patch to add new ones to the list trivially, without having to worry about the fact that new package versions cause new patch trains.) -- James Carlson, Solaris Networking Sun Microsystems / 1 Network Drive 71.232W Vox +1 781 442 2084 MS UBUR02-212 / Burlington MA 01803-2757 42.496N Fax +1 781 442 1677 From Garrett.Damore@sun.com Wed May 23 15:28:57 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4NMSuck015079 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 15:28:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4NMRe0H010567 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:psarc-ext@sun.com>; Wed, 23 May 2007 23:27:43 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JII00A01ME5XT00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 23 May 2007 15:27:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-ea-fw-1.sun.com ([10.4.134.5]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JII007IPME57W30@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 23 May 2007 15:27:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d1-sfbay-10.sun.com ([192.18.39.120]) by nwk-ea-fw-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l4NMReBS001926 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 15:27:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-sfbay-10.sun.com by d1-sfbay-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JII00L01MDF0J00@d1-sfbay-10.sun.com> (original mail from Garrett.Damore@Sun.COM) for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 23 May 2007 15:27:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.251.21] ([76.174.83.55]) by d1-sfbay-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JII00625ME3GYC3@d1-sfbay-10.sun.com>; Wed, 23 May 2007 15:27:40 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 15:26:20 -0700 From: "Garrett D'Amore" Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake In-reply-to: <18004.48549.982420.83651@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Sender: Garrett.Damore@sun.com To: James Carlson Cc: Joseph Kowalski , John.Fischer@sun.com, Alan Coopersmith , John Plocher , psarc-ext@sun.com, Dermot McCluskey Message-id: <4654BF8C.6030300@sun.com> Organization: Sun Microsystems MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1179875174.57981.65.camel@sr1-umpk-57> <46537BCB.3050004@sun.com> <46537D72.8080009@sun.com> <46537E17.8050108@sun.com> <20070522233851.GD23226@Sun.COM> <4653B989.7060604@sun.com> <20070523040108.GH23226@Sun.COM> <4653CAE6.5060707@sun.com> <4653CFC0.6020708@Sun.Com> <4653E439.3010405@sun.com> <46546F45.4030300@Sun.Com> <4654A3D4.2090506@sun.com> <4654ABFE.5000408@Sun.Com> <4654B911.8020903@sun.com> <4654BAD4.5070705@sun.com> <18004.48549.982420.83651@gargle.gargle.HOWL> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0b2 (X11/20070227) Status: RO Content-Length: 1456 James Carlson wrote: > Joseph Kowalski writes: > >> However, since I believe Laca's assertions about commitment >> stabilities, I thinking more and more that we should just punt on >> the generic name in this case. >> > > I've never seen those sorts of instabilities myself, but if they're > correct, then I agree with that. > > (As for the postinstall, I think Joe might have been referring to me. > I think it's an absolutely awful solution. I'd rather see all of the > variants delivered by a single package including a pkgmap entry for a > symlink if the generic name is useful. That way, you can use a patch > to add new ones to the list trivially, without having to worry about > the fact that new package versions cause new patch trains.) > I think if we're going to go down this road, that a generic link is more likely to be harmful than useful. For some significant number of users, the default version will be the wrong version, and whether its the wrong version or not will depend on which directory they are working in. The exception to this case would be the someone who's thinking of starting a new project using automake/autoconf. In that case, I'd just assume the default link point to a program that asked the user to consider whether their choice of automake/autoconf was really the best decision they could make. :-) Since _that's_ not likely to happen, just skip the default link altogether. -- Garrett From David.Comay@sun.com Wed May 23 15:45:08 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4NMj7Vt015334 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 15:45:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4NMhhNj020939; Thu, 24 May 2007 06:43:48 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JII0030LN4YE600@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 23 May 2007 16:43:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from izimbra.SFBay.Sun.COM ([129.146.226.141]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JII0059XN4XCHD0@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 23 May 2007 16:43:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by izimbra.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l4NMhjhU107524; Wed, 23 May 2007 15:43:45 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 15:43:44 -0700 (PDT) From: David.Comay@sun.com Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake In-reply-to: <4653B989.7060604@sun.com> Sender: comay@izimbra.sfbay.sun.com To: "Garrett D'Amore" Cc: Nicolas Williams , John.Fischer@sun.com, psarc-ext@sun.com, Alan Coopersmith , Dermot McCluskey Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1179875174.57981.65.camel@sr1-umpk-57> <46537BCB.3050004@sun.com> <46537D72.8080009@sun.com> <46537E17.8050108@sun.com> <20070522233851.GD23226@Sun.COM> <4653B989.7060604@sun.com> Status: RO Content-Length: 1064 Garrett, > My point is that unlike gcc, cc, gmake, ... the automake/autoconf toolchain > is _only_ needed by _developers_. Just building sources rarely requires > automake/autoconf. By design, these tools are used to generate the configure > script that end users run. The idea is that _only_ the developer/distributor > is building the configure script, and end-users (and site admins, etc.) just > _run_ configure to configure the source tree for compilation. But one of the reasons for including automake/autoconf and other such programs in the toolchain is to make OpenSolaris a useful platform for *those* developers in addition to the users who end up downloading the component and typing ./configure. Is it really the case that the vendor supplied version of automake is unusable in most of the cases? Do typical Fedora or Ubuntu developers download the latest (or whatever special version) from FSF they require rather than using what those open source OS projects supply? Has this discussion moved away from architecture review yet? :-) dsc From David.Comay@sun.com Wed May 23 16:03:44 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4NN3h21015738 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 16:03:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4NN2Nhm019201; Thu, 24 May 2007 00:02:26 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JII00A01O008J00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 23 May 2007 16:02:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from izimbra.SFBay.Sun.COM ([129.146.226.141]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JII002V8O005MC0@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 23 May 2007 16:02:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by izimbra.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l4NN2L94107584; Wed, 23 May 2007 16:02:21 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 16:02:21 -0700 (PDT) From: David.Comay@sun.com Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake In-reply-to: <4654AD2B.1060306@sun.com> Sender: comay@izimbra.sfbay.sun.com To: "Garrett D'Amore" Cc: Laszlo.Peter@sun.com, John.Fischer@sun.com, Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com, Gary Winiger , James Carlson , psarc-ext@sun.com, Dermot.McCluskey@sun.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200705231421.l4NELaRw016563@marduk.eng.sun.com> <465450CE.9030103@Sun.COM> <18004.23015.690776.436207@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <46545D3F.3030404@Sun.COM> <18004.25450.887289.29487@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <1179954066.1605.73.camel@loghost> <4654AD2B.1060306@sun.com> Status: RO Content-Length: 758 > What happens when 1.11 comes out? Nearly everyone will switch to it, and > whatever we provide will immediately become stale. > > Yet, it will be impossible to remove 1.10 without major headaches in the > future, because of binary compatibility guarantees. If the intent of developers who use automake are to switch quickly to 1.11 and their expectation around the tool are such that they'll accept incompatibilities in moving to such a version, then delivering it as Volatile should be acceptable. It won't satisfy everyone but it sounds like it may serve the primary audience of the tool in question. Such a commitment level would allow much more frequent updates (resources pending, of course) without requiring keeping many versions around. dsc From Darren.Reed@Sun.COM Wed May 23 17:01:36 2007 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4O01aDM016917 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 17:01:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4O00NlG013643 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:psarc-ext@sun.com>; Wed, 23 May 2007 17:00:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JII00K5JQOLEB00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 23 May 2007 17:00:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sineb-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.19.6]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JII007MSQOJ7WC0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 23 May 2007 17:00:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fe-apac-06.sun.com (fe-apac-06.sun.com [192.18.19.177] (may be forged)) by sineb-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l4O00J9B019812 for ; Thu, 24 May 2007 00:00:19 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.mail-apac.sun.com by mail-apac.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JII00501QN9IV00@mail-apac.sun.com> (original mail from Darren.Reed@Sun.COM) for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Thu, 24 May 2007 08:00:19 +0800 (SGT) Received: from [129.146.106.55] by mail-apac.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JII002GVQOG8Y77@mail-apac.sun.com>; Thu, 24 May 2007 08:00:18 +0800 (SGT) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 17:00:15 -0700 From: Darren.Reed@Sun.COM Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake In-reply-to: <1179956135.1605.89.camel@loghost> Sender: Darren.Reed@Sun.COM To: Laszlo.Peter@Sun.COM Cc: "Garrett D'Amore" , James Carlson , Dermot.McCluskey@Sun.COM, John.Fischer@Sun.COM, psarc-ext@Sun.COM, Alan.Coopersmith@Sun.COM, Gary Winiger Message-id: <4654D58F.6070405@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en-us, en X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200705231421.l4NELaRw016563@marduk.eng.sun.com> <465450CE.9030103@Sun.COM> <18004.23015.690776.436207@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <46545D3F.3030404@Sun.COM> <18004.25450.887289.29487@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <1179954066.1605.73.camel@loghost> <4654AD2B.1060306@sun.com> <1179956135.1605.89.camel@loghost> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; SunOS i86pc; en-US; rv:1.7) Gecko/20060120 Status: RO Content-Length: 1310 Laszlo (Laca) Peter wrote: >On Wed, 2007-05-23 at 14:07 -0700, Garrett D'Amore wrote: > > > >>How many people actually use the "default" version on a Linux distro? >>Are there folks who are not maintainers of these FOSS packages who feel >>they need automake/autoconf for some reason? >> >> > >Maybe not on Linux distros, but on Solaris you need to adjust >Makefile.am's or configure.in/configure.ac scripts sometimes, >and then you need to run automake/autoconf to regenerate the >Makefiles/configure script. > > In the last 10+ years, I've never had this problem with Solaris and I'd class it as a bug in the package if I ran into it. >>Yet, it will be impossible to remove 1.10 without major headaches in the >>future, because of binary compatibility guarantees. >> >> > >We can obsolete it, announce it and remove it. We do that all the time. >Python 2.3 is gone from Nevada. > > That seems like a lot of unnecessary overhead. And the issue I think we're continuing to dodge is... It seems to me like we need a better architecture for including and packaging FOSS software than we currently have. Whether it is this case or some other case, at some point in time we need to get to a point where updating Python from 2.4 to 2.5.1 does not require even a PSARC fast track. Darren From Nicolas.Williams@sun.com Wed May 23 17:04:29 2007 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4O04T2H017002 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 17:04:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4O03AgQ016452; Wed, 23 May 2007 17:03:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JII00D05QTBP200@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 23 May 2007 17:03:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from binky.central.sun.com ([129.153.128.104]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JII00AI3QTBQU50@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 23 May 2007 17:03:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from binky.central.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by binky.central.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l4O01nbE026821; Wed, 23 May 2007 19:01:49 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from nw141292@localhost) by binky.central.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/Submit) id l4O01nDr026820; Wed, 23 May 2007 19:01:49 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 19:01:49 -0500 From: Nicolas Williams Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake In-reply-to: <4654D58F.6070405@Sun.COM> To: Darren.Reed@sun.com Cc: Laszlo.Peter@sun.com, "Garrett D'Amore" , James Carlson , Dermot.McCluskey@sun.com, John.Fischer@sun.com, psarc-ext@sun.com, Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com, Gary Winiger Message-id: <20070524000148.GI23226@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200705231421.l4NELaRw016563@marduk.eng.sun.com> <465450CE.9030103@Sun.COM> <18004.23015.690776.436207@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <46545D3F.3030404@Sun.COM> <18004.25450.887289.29487@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <1179954066.1605.73.camel@loghost> <4654AD2B.1060306@sun.com> <1179956135.1605.89.camel@loghost> <4654D58F.6070405@Sun.COM> X-Authentication-warning: binky.central.sun.com: nw141292 set sender to Nicolas.Williams@sun.com using -f User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.7i Status: RO Content-Length: 630 On Wed, May 23, 2007 at 05:00:15PM -0700, Darren.Reed@Sun.COM wrote: > Laszlo (Laca) Peter wrote: > >Maybe not on Linux distros, but on Solaris you need to adjust > >Makefile.am's or configure.in/configure.ac scripts sometimes, > >and then you need to run automake/autoconf to regenerate the > >Makefiles/configure script. > > In the last 10+ years, I've never had this problem with > Solaris and I'd class it as a bug in the package if I ran into it. I've had this problem with MIT krb5, which used to require older versions of GNU autoconf, IIRC. Yes, that would have been a bug in that software, not GNU auto*, not Solaris. From Darren.Reed@Sun.COM Wed May 23 17:12:16 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4O0CFjj017144 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 17:12:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4O0AxWs006650 for <@newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com:psarc-ext@sun.com>; Thu, 24 May 2007 01:11:01 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JII00C0DR6CHM00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 23 May 2007 18:11:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sineb-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.19.6]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JII00413R6AB040@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 23 May 2007 18:10:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from fe-apac-06.sun.com (fe-apac-06.sun.com [192.18.19.177] (may be forged)) by sineb-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l4O0AwBs020146 for ; Thu, 24 May 2007 00:10:58 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.mail-apac.sun.com by mail-apac.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JII00A01R36RN00@mail-apac.sun.com> (original mail from Darren.Reed@Sun.COM) for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Thu, 24 May 2007 08:10:58 +0800 (SGT) Received: from [129.146.106.55] by mail-apac.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JII002F3R6794T6@mail-apac.sun.com>; Thu, 24 May 2007 08:10:57 +0800 (SGT) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 17:10:54 -0700 From: Darren.Reed@Sun.COM Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake In-reply-to: <4654AD2B.1060306@sun.com> Sender: Darren.Reed@Sun.COM To: "Garrett D'Amore" Cc: Laszlo.Peter@Sun.COM, James Carlson , Dermot.McCluskey@Sun.COM, John.Fischer@Sun.COM, psarc-ext@Sun.COM, Alan.Coopersmith@Sun.COM, Gary Winiger Message-id: <4654D80E.6000900@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en-us, en X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200705231421.l4NELaRw016563@marduk.eng.sun.com> <465450CE.9030103@Sun.COM> <18004.23015.690776.436207@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <46545D3F.3030404@Sun.COM> <18004.25450.887289.29487@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <1179954066.1605.73.camel@loghost> <4654AD2B.1060306@sun.com> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; SunOS i86pc; en-US; rv:1.7) Gecko/20060120 Status: RO Content-Length: 1280 Garrett D'Amore wrote: > ... > I don't think any of the proposers have addressed my concern that > there is little upside compared to the cost of this integration. I > hope that someone will, before we add something that will become > obsolete baggage just a couple of days after it is putback. Having read your comments, it makes me think that delivering autoconf/automake as part of [Open]Solaris is a mistake and rather we should deliver something to download and install both of these packages. And perhaps we should think about doing that for other FOSS things too! I'm with Garrett in that what we package up is often quickly obsoleted and adding more packages simply gets in the way of people doing work at some later point in time. Which is to say that the architecture being used here to include and deliver open source software doesn't seem to bring with it the real benefits and progressive nature of open source software. Maybe fixing that problem is outside of the scope of this case but every time we go to include a new open source package, the same issue is going to come up and we'll have more endless debates about "what to do" - surely we've got better things to do with our time than discuss these kinds of details over and over again? Darren From John.Plocher@Sun.COM Wed May 23 17:20:57 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4O0KuXB017164 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 17:20:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4O0JgET008662 for <@sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com:psarc-ext@sun.com>; Thu, 24 May 2007 01:19:43 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JII00E01RKUHB00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 23 May 2007 17:19:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-ea-fw-1.sun.com ([10.4.134.5]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JII00A0GRKTR060@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 23 May 2007 17:19:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d1-sfbay-10.sun.com ([192.18.39.120]) by nwk-ea-fw-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l4O0Jfcb012495 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 17:19:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-sfbay-10.sun.com by d1-sfbay-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JII00B01RCZ1X00@d1-sfbay-10.sun.com> (original mail from John.Plocher@Sun.COM) for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 23 May 2007 17:19:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [129.146.58.87] by d1-sfbay-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JII006V9RKTGYI3@d1-sfbay-10.sun.com>; Wed, 23 May 2007 17:19:41 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 17:19:37 -0700 From: John Plocher Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake In-reply-to: <4654D58F.6070405@Sun.COM> Sender: John.Plocher@Sun.COM To: Darren.Reed@Sun.COM Cc: Laszlo.Peter@Sun.COM, John.Fischer@Sun.COM, Alan.Coopersmith@Sun.COM, Gary Winiger , James Carlson , psarc-ext@Sun.COM, "Garrett D'Amore" , Dermot.McCluskey@Sun.COM Message-id: <4654DA19.6070206@Sun.Com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200705231421.l4NELaRw016563@marduk.eng.sun.com> <465450CE.9030103@Sun.COM> <18004.23015.690776.436207@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <46545D3F.3030404@Sun.COM> <18004.25450.887289.29487@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <1179954066.1605.73.camel@loghost> <4654AD2B.1060306@sun.com> <1179956135.1605.89.camel@loghost> <4654D58F.6070405@Sun.COM> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Macintosh/20070221) Status: RO Content-Length: 1218 Darren.Reed@Sun.COM wrote: > we need > to get to a point where updating Python from 2.4 to 2.5.1 does > not require even a PSARC fast track. > Why do you see this as a desirable state? (Or, do you and I have differing expectations about this set of FOSS stuff? I'm assuming that a particular FOSS thing is either A) completely Volatile, or B) Has some aspects that are either Committed or Uncommitted. For "A" style FOSS stuff, I actually agree with you; however, one implication of choosing "A" is that it is difficult* to depend on it elsewhere - so much so that it may be impossible for other parts of [Open]Solaris to depend on it. If there are going to be things that we do that depend on that FOSS component, then those aspects /must/ be more stable than Volatile, and we need to understand when they change out from under us. Thus ARC interactions - and my confusion about your comment. Are you saying that we can have Style "B" FOSS components without any ARC interactions when they change? -John ____ [*] JoeK and I disagree slightly here - I claim it is impossible to effectively depend on a Volatile interface; he says it might be possible for someone else to figure out how to do so... From laca@sun.com Wed May 23 17:26:34 2007 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4O0QYr9017240 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 17:26:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4O0PKOV020236 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:psarc-ext@sun.com>; Wed, 23 May 2007 17:25:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JII00N09RU81O00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 23 May 2007 17:25:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com ([129.156.42.5]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JII00MDORU69M00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 23 May 2007 17:25:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d1-emea-09.sun.com (d1-emea-09.sun.com [192.18.2.119]) by gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l4O0PIaI016386 for ; Thu, 24 May 2007 00:25:18 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-emea-09.sun.com by d1-emea-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JII00K01RSJ8R00@d1-emea-09.sun.com> (original mail from laca@sun.com) for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Thu, 24 May 2007 01:25:18 +0100 (BST) Received: from [129.150.12.192] by d1-emea-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JII00HFQRU2WXQE@d1-emea-09.sun.com>; Thu, 24 May 2007 01:25:18 +0100 (BST) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 20:25:24 -0400 From: "Laszlo (Laca) Peter" Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake In-reply-to: <4654D58F.6070405@Sun.COM> Sender: Laszlo.Peter@sun.com To: Darren.Reed@sun.com Cc: "Garrett D'Amore" , James Carlson , Dermot.McCluskey@sun.com, John.Fischer@sun.com, psarc-ext@sun.com, Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com, Gary Winiger Reply-to: Laszlo.Peter@sun.com Message-id: <1179966324.1605.115.camel@loghost> Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc. MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.10.0 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200705231421.l4NELaRw016563@marduk.eng.sun.com> <465450CE.9030103@Sun.COM> <18004.23015.690776.436207@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <46545D3F.3030404@Sun.COM> <18004.25450.887289.29487@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <1179954066.1605.73.camel@loghost> <4654AD2B.1060306@sun.com> <1179956135.1605.89.camel@loghost> <4654D58F.6070405@Sun.COM> Status: RO Content-Length: 1225 On Wed, 2007-05-23 at 17:00 -0700, Darren.Reed@Sun.COM wrote: > >Maybe not on Linux distros, but on Solaris you need to adjust > >Makefile.am's or configure.in/configure.ac scripts sometimes, > >and then you need to run automake/autoconf to regenerate the > >Makefiles/configure script. > > > In the last 10+ years, I've never had this problem with > Solaris and I'd class it as a bug in the package if I ran into it. Yes, it's a bug in the package, still, if you want to build it, you need to do something. Typical examples that we see every day is hard coding compiler specific flags (-Wall) in Makefiles or configure scripts. You either go and change each generated file to fix this or you change it in one place and regenerate the files. > And the issue I think we're continuing to dodge is... > > It seems to me like we need a better architecture for including > and packaging FOSS software than we currently have. Whether > it is this case or some other case, at some point in time we need > to get to a point where updating Python from 2.4 to 2.5.1 does > not require even a PSARC fast track. Yes, I agree that there is an issue around including multiple incompatible versions of sw, be it FOSS or not. Laca From carlsonj@phorcys.east.sun.com Wed May 23 17:51:15 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4O0pELQ017490 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 17:51:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4O0nqKS023239; Thu, 24 May 2007 08:49:56 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JII0020NSZ4G300@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 23 May 2007 17:49:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com ([129.148.174.143]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JII00M4HSZ39O10@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 23 May 2007 17:49:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l4O0noE1005002; Wed, 23 May 2007 20:49:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from carlsonj@localhost) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1/Submit) id l4O0noZe004999; Wed, 23 May 2007 20:49:50 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 20:49:50 -0400 From: James Carlson Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake In-reply-to: <4654DA19.6070206@Sun.Com> To: John Plocher Cc: Darren.Reed@Sun.COM, Laszlo.Peter@Sun.COM, John.Fischer@Sun.COM, Alan.Coopersmith@Sun.COM, Gary Winiger , psarc-ext@Sun.COM, "Garrett D'Amore" , Dermot.McCluskey@Sun.COM Message-id: <18004.57646.62168.466556@gargle.gargle.HOWL> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: VM 7.01 under Emacs 21.3.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200705231421.l4NELaRw016563@marduk.eng.sun.com> <465450CE.9030103@Sun.COM> <18004.23015.690776.436207@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <46545D3F.3030404@Sun.COM> <18004.25450.887289.29487@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <1179954066.1605.73.camel@loghost> <4654AD2B.1060306@sun.com> <1179956135.1605.89.camel@loghost> <4654D58F.6070405@Sun.COM> <4654DA19.6070206@Sun.Com> Status: RO Content-Length: 1315 John Plocher writes: > If there are going to be things that we do that depend on > that FOSS component, then those aspects /must/ be more stable > than Volatile, and we need to understand when they change > out from under us. Thus ARC interactions - and my confusion > about your comment. Are you saying that we can have Style "B" > FOSS components without any ARC interactions when they change? I think one possible implication of what Darren is saying is that someone else (other than Sun's ARC) actually handles those guarantees among the cooperating projects. It's not any sort of "stable" from Sun's perspective, nor from any unrelated project's perspective, but for those projects in the clique, it works. I certainly don't think it works at all for Python. The upgrade with minimal architectural review is probably fine if it's fully compatible, but just shouldn't be allowed if it's not. Otherwise, if some other policy is really needed, Python doesn't belong in the WOS. "Breaks all the time, users depend on it, it's shipped with Sun's imprimatur" isn't a desirable state. -- James Carlson, Solaris Networking Sun Microsystems / 1 Network Drive 71.232W Vox +1 781 442 2084 MS UBUR02-212 / Burlington MA 01803-2757 42.496N Fax +1 781 442 1677 From Darren.Reed@sun.com Wed May 23 17:57:46 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4O0vjlu018090 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 17:57:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4O0uQZH024940 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:psarc-ext@sun.com>; Thu, 24 May 2007 08:56:31 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JII00303TA64D00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@SUN.COM); Wed, 23 May 2007 17:56:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sineb-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.19.6]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JII00M7HTA59E10@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@SUN.COM); Wed, 23 May 2007 17:56:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fe-apac-06.sun.com (fe-apac-06.sun.com [192.18.19.177] (may be forged)) by sineb-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l4O0uSeC022055 for ; Thu, 24 May 2007 00:56:28 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.mail-apac.sun.com by mail-apac.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JII00701T6DK100@mail-apac.sun.com> (original mail from Darren.Reed@Sun.COM) for psarc-ext@SUN.COM (ORCPT psarc-ext@SUN.COM); Thu, 24 May 2007 08:56:28 +0800 (SGT) Received: from [129.146.106.55] by mail-apac.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JII002YRTA194X6@mail-apac.sun.com>; Thu, 24 May 2007 08:56:28 +0800 (SGT) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 17:56:24 -0700 From: Darren.Reed@sun.com Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake In-reply-to: <4654DA19.6070206@Sun.Com> Sender: Darren.Reed@sun.com To: John Plocher Cc: Laszlo.Peter@sun.com, John.Fischer@sun.com, Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com, Gary Winiger , James Carlson , psarc-ext@sun.com, "Garrett D'Amore" , Dermot.McCluskey@sun.com Message-id: <4654E2B8.7060907@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en-us, en X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200705231421.l4NELaRw016563@marduk.eng.sun.com> <465450CE.9030103@Sun.COM> <18004.23015.690776.436207@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <46545D3F.3030404@Sun.COM> <18004.25450.887289.29487@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <1179954066.1605.73.camel@loghost> <4654AD2B.1060306@sun.com> <1179956135.1605.89.camel@loghost> <4654D58F.6070405@Sun.COM> <4654DA19.6070206@Sun.Com> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; SunOS i86pc; en-US; rv:1.7) Gecko/20060120 Status: RO Content-Length: 3313 John Plocher wrote: > Darren.Reed@Sun.COM wrote: > >> we need >> to get to a point where updating Python from 2.4 to 2.5.1 does >> not require even a PSARC fast track. >> > > Why do you see this as a desirable state? Because having a PSARC case for every such package and relevant change does not scale. Never mind that they're not likely to be very interesting and take more time to deal with than they ever should. > (Or, do you and I have differing expectations about this set of > FOSS stuff? I'm assuming that a particular FOSS thing is either > A) completely Volatile, or Yes. > B) Has some aspects that are either Committed or Uncommitted. > > For "A" style FOSS stuff, I actually agree with you; however, > one implication of choosing "A" is that it is difficult* to > depend on it elsewhere - so much so that it may be impossible > for other parts of [Open]Solaris to depend on it. > > If there are going to be things that we do that depend on > that FOSS component, then those aspects /must/ be more stable > than Volatile, and we need to understand when they change > out from under us. Thus ARC interactions - and my confusion > about your comment. Are you saying that we can have Style "B" > FOSS components without any ARC interactions when they change? > > -John > ____ > [*] JoeK and I disagree slightly here - I claim it is impossible > to effectively depend on a Volatile interface; he says it might > be possible for someone else to figure out how to do so... If we want to include open source products because we have internal dependencies then we should put them in some corner of the directory tree where nobody needs to know about them. Why? Because changing them is too hard and takes too long. If that is what this case is about, delivering automake because there is an internal dependency, then we should put it somewhere stupid, like /usr/.sunprivate/bin and configure our things to use that without impacting the ability of people out there to install the "correct version." Forget about trying to deliver it as a package that outsiders can use. Furthermore, installing up to date versions of the same such software in /usr/bin or elsewhere should not break our use of our internal dependencies. For outsiders we should be either always be delivering them the "latest" or a mechanism to "get the latest." I think it is a mistake to have any FOSS software in a Committed or Uncommitted state, especially if it is present in a directory that a user is likely to stumble across. Yes these packages are replicas of what the open source community uses but if we're making them Committed then our use of them is different to how the open source community generally views it. To take JoeK's statement one step further, unless we can find a mechanism to depend on (or use) an interface that is volatile then our attempts at properly integrating FOSS are doomed (we'll always be behind the 8-ball, slow to respond and so on.) This speaks of our need to change the way we work internally as much as we need to change the way we think about stability of such things. I suppose there's one other big wildcard to this problem and it goes by the name "Project Indiana". It's not hard to see that making all of this discussion redundant when it completes. Darren From Torrey.McMahon@sun.com Wed May 23 19:31:23 2007 Received: from newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (newsunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.245]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4O2VNNn020214 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 19:31:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4O2TxJP021691 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:psarc-ext@sun.com>; Wed, 23 May 2007 20:29:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JII00D1VXM84500@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 23 May 2007 19:30:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.98.43]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JII00MT7XM79O40@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 23 May 2007 19:30:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fe-amer-09.sun.com ([192.18.108.183]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l4O2U74F009320 for ; Thu, 24 May 2007 02:30:07 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.mail-amer.sun.com by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JII00L01XIVBW00@mail-amer.sun.com> (original mail from Torrey.McMahon@Sun.COM) for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 23 May 2007 20:30:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [192.168.1.101] ([69.143.10.104]) by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JII00M9HXM22BDP@mail-amer.sun.com>; Wed, 23 May 2007 20:30:05 -0600 (MDT) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 22:30:03 -0400 From: Torrey McMahon Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake In-reply-to: <4654D80E.6000900@Sun.COM> Sender: Torrey.McMahon@sun.com To: Darren.Reed@sun.com Cc: "Garrett D'Amore" , Laszlo.Peter@sun.com, James Carlson , Dermot.McCluskey@sun.com, John.Fischer@sun.com, psarc-ext@sun.com, Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com, Gary Winiger Message-id: <4654F8AB.5040303@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200705231421.l4NELaRw016563@marduk.eng.sun.com> <465450CE.9030103@Sun.COM> <18004.23015.690776.436207@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <46545D3F.3030404@Sun.COM> <18004.25450.887289.29487@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <1179954066.1605.73.camel@loghost> <4654AD2B.1060306@sun.com> <4654D80E.6000900@Sun.COM> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.0 (Windows/20070326) Status: RO Content-Length: 1057 Darren.Reed@Sun.COM wrote: > Garrett D'Amore wrote: > >> ... >> I don't think any of the proposers have addressed my concern that >> there is little upside compared to the cost of this integration. I >> hope that someone will, before we add something that will become >> obsolete baggage just a couple of days after it is putback. > > > Having read your comments, it makes me think that delivering > autoconf/automake as part of [Open]Solaris is a mistake and > rather we should deliver something to download and install both > of these packages. And perhaps we should think about doing > that for other FOSS things too! Some of us have been saying that for awhile. The problem is certain customers want the bits from Sun and on the media. They don't want to have to build it themselves and want Sun to provide support. In of itself that isn't an architecture discussion so much as it is a packaging/distribution problem. There are conflicting requirements here and I don't think this case is the place to solve them....but I'm up for debate. From Garrett.Damore@sun.com Wed May 23 19:50:37 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4O2oa05020295 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 19:50:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4O2nKiY022935 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:psarc-ext@sun.com>; Thu, 24 May 2007 10:49:22 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JII00F07YIA3500@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 23 May 2007 19:49:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-ea-fw-1.sun.com ([10.4.134.6]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JII00MMFYI99G50@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 23 May 2007 19:49:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d1-sfbay-09.sun.com ([192.18.39.119]) by nwk-ea-fw-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l4O2nLC9006745 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 19:49:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-sfbay-09.sun.com by d1-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JII00B01YHR2C00@d1-sfbay-09.sun.com> (original mail from Garrett.Damore@Sun.COM) for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 23 May 2007 19:49:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.251.21] ([76.174.83.55]) by d1-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JII0028JYI8DHPK@d1-sfbay-09.sun.com>; Wed, 23 May 2007 19:49:21 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 19:48:00 -0700 From: "Garrett D'Amore" Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake In-reply-to: <4654F8AB.5040303@sun.com> Sender: Garrett.Damore@sun.com To: Torrey McMahon Cc: Darren.Reed@sun.com, Laszlo.Peter@sun.com, James Carlson , Dermot.McCluskey@sun.com, John.Fischer@sun.com, psarc-ext@sun.com, Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com, Gary Winiger Message-id: <4654FCE0.7090403@sun.com> Organization: Sun Microsystems MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200705231421.l4NELaRw016563@marduk.eng.sun.com> <465450CE.9030103@Sun.COM> <18004.23015.690776.436207@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <46545D3F.3030404@Sun.COM> <18004.25450.887289.29487@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <1179954066.1605.73.camel@loghost> <4654AD2B.1060306@sun.com> <4654D80E.6000900@Sun.COM> <4654F8AB.5040303@sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0b2 (X11/20070227) Status: RO Content-Length: 2604 Torrey McMahon wrote: > Darren.Reed@Sun.COM wrote: >> Garrett D'Amore wrote: >> >>> ... >>> I don't think any of the proposers have addressed my concern that >>> there is little upside compared to the cost of this integration. I >>> hope that someone will, before we add something that will become >>> obsolete baggage just a couple of days after it is putback. >> >> >> Having read your comments, it makes me think that delivering >> autoconf/automake as part of [Open]Solaris is a mistake and >> rather we should deliver something to download and install both >> of these packages. And perhaps we should think about doing >> that for other FOSS things too! > > Some of us have been saying that for awhile. The problem is certain > customers want the bits from Sun and on the media. They don't want to > have to build it themselves and want Sun to provide support. In of > itself that isn't an architecture discussion so much as it is a > packaging/distribution problem. > > There are conflicting requirements here and I don't think this case is > the place to solve them....but I'm up for debate. > I strongly doubt that _this_ particular case (automake, though I will extend that to autoconf and libtool as well) is one where the customers are demanding it. I suspect that customers want things like gcc, bison, flex, gnu grep, emacs, textutils, etc. (Actually, what they really want is the same command line environment that they have in Linux. Because, for better or worse, Linux market share is huge.) And for most of those tools, I agree that it makes sense to have them in /usr/bin (or at least on the default path) per the /usr/gnu PSARC case. Automake/autoconf/libtool fail a few key tests for packaging by Sun, IMO, though: * will users of one version generally be happy with a different version (i.e. is there generally pretty good compatibility between versions) * is it something typical end-users (or even system administrators) are going to want on their system? * are customers likely to be happy with what we provide? * do we really save customers any effort by prepackaging it? (a few MB download for the tiny number of users who need it.) I think automake/autoconf/libtool is a poster child for FOSS that we _should not_ include in Solaris. Compare that with gcc, which is also used for development. But most developers want gcc, and are likely to be happy with nearly any version that isn't ancient. And which is useful to more than just a few package maintainers, but to _everyone_ who works with FOSS. -- Garrett From Darren.Reed@sun.com Wed May 23 20:01:58 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4O31vjd020690 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 20:01:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4O30d7F025291 for <@sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com:psarc-ext@sun.com>; Thu, 24 May 2007 11:00:43 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JII00N05Z144W00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 23 May 2007 20:00:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sineb-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.19.7]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JII00A57Z13QYF0@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 23 May 2007 20:00:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fe-apac-06.sun.com (fe-apac-06.sun.com [192.18.19.177] (may be forged)) by sineb-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l4O30cZO008196 for ; Thu, 24 May 2007 03:00:38 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.mail-apac.sun.com by mail-apac.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JII00901YS8TN00@mail-apac.sun.com> (original mail from Darren.Reed@Sun.COM) for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Thu, 24 May 2007 11:00:38 +0800 (SGT) Received: from [129.146.106.55] by mail-apac.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JII0029VZ0Z9477@mail-apac.sun.com>; Thu, 24 May 2007 11:00:38 +0800 (SGT) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 20:00:34 -0700 From: Darren.Reed@sun.com Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake In-reply-to: <4654FCE0.7090403@sun.com> Sender: Darren.Reed@sun.com To: "Garrett D'Amore" Cc: Torrey McMahon , Laszlo.Peter@sun.com, James Carlson , Dermot.McCluskey@sun.com, John.Fischer@sun.com, psarc-ext@sun.com, Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com, Gary Winiger Message-id: <4654FFD2.2070200@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en-us, en X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200705231421.l4NELaRw016563@marduk.eng.sun.com> <465450CE.9030103@Sun.COM> <18004.23015.690776.436207@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <46545D3F.3030404@Sun.COM> <18004.25450.887289.29487@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <1179954066.1605.73.camel@loghost> <4654AD2B.1060306@sun.com> <4654D80E.6000900@Sun.COM> <4654F8AB.5040303@sun.com> <4654FCE0.7090403@sun.com> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; SunOS i86pc; en-US; rv:1.7) Gecko/20060120 Status: RO Content-Length: 880 Garrett D'Amore wrote: > ... > I think automake/autoconf/libtool is a poster child for FOSS that we > _should not_ include in Solaris. But contrary to that is that OpenSolaris needs to consider using libtool in the event that it becomes fully self-hosting using source code from the open that compiles. Either that or SUNWspro gets open sourced :> I don't believe the same need applies to auto*. Well, actually not libtool, but binutils. > Compare that with gcc, which is also used for development. But most > developers want gcc, and are likely to be happy with nearly any > version that isn't ancient. And which is useful to more than just a > few package maintainers, but to _everyone_ who works with FOSS. And things like autoconf take care of differences in capabilities of various compilers, anyway. Yes, gdb & gcc are must haves and after that... Darren From jek3@sun.com Wed May 23 20:06:42 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4O36flR020726 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 20:06:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4O35HjQ026474; Thu, 24 May 2007 11:05:21 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JII0000DZ8VBX00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 23 May 2007 20:05:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com ([129.146.17.59]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JII0000WZ8VBJ00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 23 May 2007 20:05:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [129.150.12.53] (vpn-129-150-12-53.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.12.53]) by jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l4O35HV2171189; Wed, 23 May 2007 20:05:18 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 17:05:11 -1000 From: Joseph Kowalski Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake In-reply-to: <18004.48549.982420.83651@gargle.gargle.HOWL> To: James Carlson Cc: John.Fischer@sun.com, Alan Coopersmith , John Plocher , psarc-ext@sun.com, "Garrett D'Amore" , Dermot McCluskey Message-id: <465500E7.6030406@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1179875174.57981.65.camel@sr1-umpk-57> <46537BCB.3050004@sun.com> <46537D72.8080009@sun.com> <46537E17.8050108@sun.com> <20070522233851.GD23226@Sun.COM> <4653B989.7060604@sun.com> <20070523040108.GH23226@Sun.COM> <4653CAE6.5060707@sun.com> <4653CFC0.6020708@Sun.Com> <4653E439.3010405@sun.com> <46546F45.4030300@Sun.Com> <4654A3D4.2090506@sun.com> <4654ABFE.5000408@Sun.Com> <4654B911.8020903@sun.com> <4654BAD4.5070705@sun.com> <18004.48549.982420.83651@gargle.gargle.HOWL> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060925) Status: RO Content-Length: 1014 James Carlson wrote: > Joseph Kowalski writes: > >> However, since I believe Laca's assertions about commitment >> stabilities, I thinking more and more that we should just punt on >> the generic name in this case. >> > > I've never seen those sorts of instabilities myself, but if they're > correct, then I agree with that. > > (As for the postinstall, I think Joe might have been referring to me. > I think it's an absolutely awful solution. I'd rather see all of the > variants delivered by a single package including a pkgmap entry for a > symlink if the generic name is useful. That way, you can use a patch > to add new ones to the list trivially, without having to worry about > the fact that new package versions cause new patch trains.) > Nope, actually wasn't referring to you. Yes, it would be possible to do as Jim proposes - make automake an all or nothing proposal. "Awful" does sound a bit strong however. We can still decide "generic" does no good in this particular case. - jek3 From jek3@sun.com Wed May 23 20:13:23 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4O3DMii020759 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 20:13:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4O3BqLJ012101; Thu, 24 May 2007 04:12:04 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JII00H01ZK3MM00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 23 May 2007 20:12:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com ([129.146.17.63]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JII00MEKZK39G60@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 23 May 2007 20:12:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [129.150.12.53] (vpn-129-150-12-53.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.12.53]) by jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l4O3C2Kt171698; Wed, 23 May 2007 20:12:02 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 17:11:56 -1000 From: Joseph Kowalski Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake In-reply-to: To: David.Comay@sun.com Cc: "Garrett D'Amore" , Laszlo.Peter@sun.com, John.Fischer@sun.com, Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com, Gary Winiger , James Carlson , psarc-ext@sun.com, Dermot.McCluskey@sun.com Message-id: <4655027C.4030003@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200705231421.l4NELaRw016563@marduk.eng.sun.com> <465450CE.9030103@Sun.COM> <18004.23015.690776.436207@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <46545D3F.3030404@Sun.COM> <18004.25450.887289.29487@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <1179954066.1605.73.camel@loghost> <4654AD2B.1060306@sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060925) Status: RO Content-Length: 1164 David.Comay@sun.com wrote: >> What happens when 1.11 comes out? Nearly everyone will switch to it, >> and whatever we provide will immediately become stale. >> >> Yet, it will be impossible to remove 1.10 without major headaches in >> the future, because of binary compatibility guarantees. > > If the intent of developers who use automake are to switch quickly to > 1.11 and their expectation around the tool are such that they'll accept > incompatibilities in moving to such a version, then delivering it as > Volatile should be acceptable. It won't satisfy everyone but it sounds > like it may serve the primary audience of the tool in question. Such a > commitment level would allow much more frequent updates (resources > pending, of course) without requiring keeping many versions around. > > dsc I think people might be misinterpreting what I said. I think Uncommitted (as proposed) was appropriate for the versioned names. We really shouldn't remove anything in an Update and the cost of keeping them should be small. It was the potential symlink which I suggested as volatile - so it could always point at the most recent. Nothing more. - jek3 From jek3@sun.com Wed May 23 20:19:46 2007 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4O3JkVa020775 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 20:19:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4O3HNqh014230; Wed, 23 May 2007 20:17:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JII00001ZT1Y800@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 23 May 2007 20:17:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com ([129.146.17.63]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JII000QMZT1BE00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 23 May 2007 20:17:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [129.150.12.53] (vpn-129-150-12-53.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.12.53]) by jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l4O3HNER172108; Wed, 23 May 2007 20:17:24 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 17:17:17 -1000 From: Joseph Kowalski Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake In-reply-to: <4654D58F.6070405@Sun.COM> To: Darren.Reed@sun.com Cc: Laszlo.Peter@sun.com, "Garrett D'Amore" , James Carlson , Dermot.McCluskey@sun.com, John.Fischer@sun.com, psarc-ext@sun.com, Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com, Gary Winiger Message-id: <465503BD.2030207@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200705231421.l4NELaRw016563@marduk.eng.sun.com> <465450CE.9030103@Sun.COM> <18004.23015.690776.436207@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <46545D3F.3030404@Sun.COM> <18004.25450.887289.29487@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <1179954066.1605.73.camel@loghost> <4654AD2B.1060306@sun.com> <1179956135.1605.89.camel@loghost> <4654D58F.6070405@Sun.COM> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060925) Status: RO Content-Length: 698 Darren.Reed@sun.com wrote: > It seems to me like we need a better architecture for including > and packaging FOSS software than we currently have. Whether > it is this case or some other case, at some point in time we need > to get to a point where updating Python from 2.4 to 2.5.1 does > not require even a PSARC fast track. I almost agree, assuming 2.5.1 is upward compatible with 2.4. If its incompatible, I think we need review. I said almost, because I do think such events need to be recorded. A one paragraph "Closed approved automatic" seems sufficient. Note, this wouldn't apply to putting Python in the first time. That should require review. This is a "first time" case. - jek3 From laca@sun.com Wed May 23 20:23:48 2007 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4O3NmEp020808 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 20:23:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4O3MZGk015024 for <@sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com:psarc-ext@sun.com>; Wed, 23 May 2007 20:22:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JIJ0010301N6900@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 23 May 2007 20:22:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com ([129.156.42.5]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JIJ000ZI01LBD00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 23 May 2007 20:22:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d1-emea-09.sun.com (d1-emea-09.sun.com [192.18.2.119]) by gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l4O3MXP0018812 for ; Thu, 24 May 2007 03:22:33 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-emea-09.sun.com by d1-emea-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JII00B01ZVGTO00@d1-emea-09.sun.com> (original mail from laca@sun.com) for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Thu, 24 May 2007 04:22:33 +0100 (BST) Received: from [192.168.1.1] ([74.98.147.139]) by d1-emea-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JIJ00GHQ01JMK1L@d1-emea-09.sun.com>; Thu, 24 May 2007 04:22:33 +0100 (BST) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 23:20:00 -0400 From: "Laszlo (Laca) Peter" Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake In-reply-to: <4654FCE0.7090403@sun.com> Sender: Laszlo.Peter@sun.com To: "Garrett D'Amore" Cc: Torrey McMahon , Darren.Reed@sun.com, James Carlson , Dermot.McCluskey@sun.com, John.Fischer@sun.com, psarc-ext@sun.com, Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com, Gary Winiger Reply-to: Laszlo.Peter@sun.com Message-id: <1179976800.2376.12.camel@loghost> Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc. MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.10.0 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200705231421.l4NELaRw016563@marduk.eng.sun.com> <465450CE.9030103@Sun.COM> <18004.23015.690776.436207@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <46545D3F.3030404@Sun.COM> <18004.25450.887289.29487@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <1179954066.1605.73.camel@loghost> <4654AD2B.1060306@sun.com> <4654D80E.6000900@Sun.COM> <4654F8AB.5040303@sun.com> <4654FCE0.7090403@sun.com> Status: RO Content-Length: 1262 On Wed, 2007-05-23 at 19:48 -0700, Garrett D'Amore wrote: > Automake/autoconf/libtool fail a few key tests for packaging by Sun, > IMO, though: > > * will users of one version generally be happy with a different > version (i.e. is there generally pretty good compatibility between > versions) No, we will need to include the 2 most recent versions. They will be good enough for at least 99% of users/developers who need it. > * is it something typical end-users no > (or even system administrators) are going to want on their system? maybe I would add: * is the lack of these tools a source of frustration for GNUish developers? Yes, totally. > * are customers likely to be happy with what we provide? Those who care are likely to be happy. Those who don't care don't care. (: > * do we really save customers any effort by prepackaging it? (a > few MB download for the tiny number of users who need it.) We save the frustration of having to download and build yet another package that doesn't come with Solaris. > I think automake/autoconf/libtool is a poster child for FOSS that we > _should not_ include in Solaris. The fact that we need these tools for building significant parts of Solaris says otherwise. Laca From jek3@sun.com Wed May 23 20:27:06 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4O3R57R020822 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 20:27:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4O3PcMG014965; Thu, 24 May 2007 04:25:48 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JIJ00I0306YZ300@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 23 May 2007 20:25:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com ([129.146.17.59]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JIJ00MXU06Y9E50@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 23 May 2007 20:25:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [129.150.12.53] (vpn-129-150-12-53.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.12.53]) by jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l4O3Pijv172982; Wed, 23 May 2007 20:25:45 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 17:25:39 -1000 From: Joseph Kowalski Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake In-reply-to: <4654DA19.6070206@Sun.Com> To: John Plocher Cc: Darren.Reed@sun.com, Laszlo.Peter@sun.com, John.Fischer@sun.com, Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com, Gary Winiger , James Carlson , psarc-ext@sun.com, "Garrett D'Amore" , Dermot.McCluskey@sun.com Message-id: <465505B3.4080401@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200705231421.l4NELaRw016563@marduk.eng.sun.com> <465450CE.9030103@Sun.COM> <18004.23015.690776.436207@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <46545D3F.3030404@Sun.COM> <18004.25450.887289.29487@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <1179954066.1605.73.camel@loghost> <4654AD2B.1060306@sun.com> <1179956135.1605.89.camel@loghost> <4654D58F.6070405@Sun.COM> <4654DA19.6070206@Sun.Com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060925) Status: RO Content-Length: 830 John Plocher wrote: > [*] JoeK and I disagree slightly here - I claim it is impossible > to effectively depend on a Volatile interface; he says it might > be possible for someone else to figure out how to do so... JoeK says Volatile is viral. If you depend on something Volatile, you are now Volatile. The question is if Volatile is useful to the end user. I think the discussion associated with this shows that it is. Developers can live with Volatile. The Atomic Energy Commission can't. I've often said that Volatile libraries are useless. I'm not so sure Volatile utilities are equally useless. Part of the charm of FOSS is that when something breaks because it depended on something Volatile (explicit or not) is how quickly new versions appear to deal with the change. Some deployments can live like this. - jek3 From David.Comay@sun.com Thu May 24 00:05:10 2007 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4O75Ak0024188 for ; Thu, 24 May 2007 00:05:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4O73rB8021642; Thu, 24 May 2007 00:03:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JIJ00I0JAAGXF00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Thu, 24 May 2007 00:03:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from izimbra.SFBay.Sun.COM ([129.146.226.141]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JIJ00M9WAAF9BF0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Thu, 24 May 2007 00:03:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by izimbra.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l4O73nL7107925; Thu, 24 May 2007 00:03:49 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 00:03:49 -0700 (PDT) From: David.Comay@sun.com Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake In-reply-to: <4655027C.4030003@sun.com> Sender: comay@izimbra.sfbay.sun.com To: Joseph Kowalski Cc: "Garrett D'Amore" , Laszlo.Peter@sun.com, John.Fischer@sun.com, Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com, Gary Winiger , James Carlson , psarc-ext@sun.com, Dermot.McCluskey@sun.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200705231421.l4NELaRw016563@marduk.eng.sun.com> <465450CE.9030103@Sun.COM> <18004.23015.690776.436207@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <46545D3F.3030404@Sun.COM> <18004.25450.887289.29487@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <1179954066.1605.73.camel@loghost> <4654AD2B.1060306@sun.com> <4655027C.4030003@sun.com> Status: RO Content-Length: 556 > I think Uncommitted (as proposed) was appropriate for the versioned names. > We really shouldn't remove anything in an Update and the cost of keeping > them should be small. I agree but was responding (with tongue partially in cheek) that if the customer expectation around a particular tool is that they will *always* want the bleeding edge version (which I thought someone had advocated), then it could be committed as Volatile and that would match their expectation. Personally, I think Uncommitted is the right commitment level for this too. dsc From casper@holland.sun.com Thu May 24 00:46:08 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4O7k7Pa024918 for ; Thu, 24 May 2007 00:46:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4O7ih2i008183; Thu, 24 May 2007 15:44:44 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JIJ00F07C6IC500@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Thu, 24 May 2007 00:44:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com ([129.159.237.36]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JIJ00BO3C6HXH40@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Thu, 24 May 2007 00:44:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from holland (room101 [129.159.130.93]) by sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7) with ESMTP id l4O7icjU038078; Thu, 24 May 2007 09:44:39 +0200 (MEST) Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 09:44:38 +0200 From: Casper.Dik@sun.com Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake In-reply-to: <20070524000148.GI23226@Sun.COM> Sender: casper@holland.sun.com To: Nicolas Williams Cc: Darren.Reed@sun.com, Laszlo.Peter@sun.com, "Garrett D'Amore" , James Carlson , Dermot.McCluskey@sun.com, john.fischer@sun.com, psarc-ext@sun.com, Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com, Gary Winiger Message-id: <200705240744.l4O7icjU038078@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200705231421.l4NELaRw016563@marduk.eng.sun.com> <465450CE.9030103@Sun.COM> <18004.23015.690776.436207@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <46545D3F.3030404@Sun.COM> <18004.25450.887289.29487@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <1179954066.1605.73.camel@loghost> <4654AD2B.1060306@sun.com> <1179956135.1605.89.camel@loghost> <4654D58F.6070405@Sun.COM> <20070524000148.GI23226@Sun.COM> Status: RO Content-Length: 918 >On Wed, May 23, 2007 at 05:00:15PM -0700, Darren.Reed@Sun.COM wrote: >> Laszlo (Laca) Peter wrote: >> >Maybe not on Linux distros, but on Solaris you need to adjust >> >Makefile.am's or configure.in/configure.ac scripts sometimes, >> >and then you need to run automake/autoconf to regenerate the >> >Makefiles/configure script. >> >> In the last 10+ years, I've never had this problem with >> Solaris and I'd class it as a bug in the package if I ran into it. > >I've had this problem with MIT krb5, which used to require older >versions of GNU autoconf, IIRC. Yes, that would have been a bug in that >software, not GNU auto*, not Solaris. I beg to differ. GNU autoconf really isn't "auto". If an author of a package does not know that "socket()" may be in libsocket autoconf is no help. Autoconf should come with a library of such choices; it should not leave that to the individual package writers. Casper From schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de Thu May 24 02:48:40 2007 Received: from newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (newsunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.245]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4O9meqQ026193 for ; Thu, 24 May 2007 02:48:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4O9lBmO025497; Thu, 24 May 2007 03:47:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JIJ00C01HUX2500@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Thu, 24 May 2007 02:47:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sca-ea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.43.25]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JIJ00JB7HUXXZC0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Thu, 24 May 2007 02:47:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay3.sun.com (relay3.sun.com [150.143.103.54] (may be forged)) by sca-ea-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l4O9lGdN003484; Thu, 24 May 2007 09:47:20 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mms04es.sun.com ([150.143.104.74] [150.143.104.74]) by relay3.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-1520044; Thu, 24 May 2007 09:47:01 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay3.sun.com (relay3.sun.com [150.143.103.54]) by mms04es.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-1554379; Thu, 24 May 2007 09:47:00 +0000 (Z) Received: from mailhub.fokus.fraunhofer.de ([193.174.154.14] [193.174.154.14]) by relay3.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-12999552; Thu, 24 May 2007 09:47:00 +0000 (Z) Received: from burner.fokus.fraunhofer.de (burner [10.147.65.166]) by mailhub.fokus.fraunhofer.de (8.11.6p2/8.11.6) with ESMTP id l4O9kvF09117; Thu, 24 May 2007 11:46:58 +0200 (MEST) Received: (from jes@localhost) by burner.fokus.fraunhofer.de (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/Submit) id l4O9ju6K007914; Thu, 24 May 2007 11:45:56 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 11:45:56 +0200 From: Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (Joerg Schilling) Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake In-reply-to: <200705240744.l4O7icjU038078@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> Sender: schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de To: Nicolas.Williams@sun.com, Casper.Dik@sun.com Cc: psarc-ext@sun.com, john.fischer@sun.com, James.D.Carlson@sun.com, gww@eng.sun.com, Garrett.Damore@sun.com, Dermot.McCluskey@sun.com, Darren.Reed@sun.com, Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com Message-id: <46555ed4.MGf9EA7PEBZjGStW%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200705231421.l4NELaRw016563@marduk.eng.sun.com> <465450CE.9030103@Sun.COM> <18004.23015.690776.436207@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <46545D3F.3030404@Sun.COM> <18004.25450.887289.29487@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <1179954066.1605.73.camel@loghost> <4654AD2B.1060306@sun.com> <1179956135.1605.89.camel@loghost> <4654D58F.6070405@Sun.COM> <20070524000148.GI23226@Sun.COM> <200705240744.l4O7icjU038078@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> User-Agent: nail 11.22 3/20/05 Status: RO Content-Length: 3279 Casper.Dik@sun.com wrote: > >I've had this problem with MIT krb5, which used to require older > >versions of GNU autoconf, IIRC. Yes, that would have been a bug in that > >software, not GNU auto*, not Solaris. > > I beg to differ. > > GNU autoconf really isn't "auto". > > If an author of a package does not know that "socket()" may be in libsocket > autoconf is no help. > > Autoconf should come with a library of such choices; it should not leave > that to the individual package writers. Autoconf has a lot of problems: - It does not work at all if you are on an "unknown" platform. If Apple e.g. changes from PPC to Intel, this makes all GNU autoconf based programs fail to compile at alll. This is why Schily Autoconf (available with the Schily Makefilesystem) has been enhanced at this point. - Newer GNU autoconf versions insist in using /bin/bash or will need _hours_ to complete. - A typical program using GNU autoconf needs to call "configure" as many times as there are different programs with different constraints in the complete packet. This is caused by the fact that many tests are done in a way that let them base on earlier tests that are based on specific assumptions. The main bugs in GNU autoconf in this area are: - Not planning the order of the tests the right way - Accumulating the lib list like: LIBS="$LIBS $lib_acl" - Either asuming non-large file or large file programs. If you compile a program that used GNU autoconf, you need to link it against _all_ libs that have been tested in "configure", or it may fail to get all symbols. - It is really hard to understand by newcomers. People are unable to create an own configure.in from reading the documentatoion only. - The basig idea that is exp[lained in the documentation is wrong: - If you follow the documentation, you do not get reusable code but start copy/paste code fragments that are already wrong in the autoconf documentation into your program. - While the .m4 files are highly reusable, GNU autoconf leads people to write non reusable code that is hard to maintain. - It creates a really big shell script that would increase by less than 5% if it did also control compilation, so why do they use "make"? BTW: GNU "automake" is no automake system but just another step in the wrong dorection of a system that needs to modify makefiles for a specific platform. I did fix all these problems in my schily makefilesystem. - Schily autoconf does not fail on unknown platforms - Schily autoconf comes with the 500+ most important tests preconfigured - The Schily Makefilesystem comes with a set of include files that hide the portability code from the programs that use it. If you find a portability bug, you only need to fix one of the reusable include files and to recompile your code. - smake compiles and runs on more platforms than GNU make and smake includes real "automake" features that allow to compile on unknown platforms. Jörg -- EMail:joerg@schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin js@cs.tu-berlin.de (uni) schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily From schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de Thu May 24 03:43:18 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4OAhHtW026888 for ; Thu, 24 May 2007 03:43:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4OAfsb2001096; Thu, 24 May 2007 11:41:58 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JIJ00H03KDVMN00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Thu, 24 May 2007 03:41:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com ([192.18.98.34]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JIJ00GE8KDVXL00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Thu, 24 May 2007 03:41:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay2.sun.com (relay2.sun.com [150.143.103.24] (may be forged)) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l4OANQWW024865; Thu, 24 May 2007 10:41:54 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mms05es.sun.com ([150.143.104.94] [150.143.104.94]) by relay2.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-1527741; Thu, 24 May 2007 10:41:54 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay2.sun.com (relay2.sun.com [150.143.103.24]) by mms05es.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-1376648; Thu, 24 May 2007 10:41:54 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay41i.sun.com ([192.5.209.70] [192.5.209.70]) by relay2.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-13254144; Thu, 24 May 2007 10:41:53 +0000 (Z) Received: from mailhub.fokus.fraunhofer.de ([193.174.154.14] [193.174.154.14]) by relay4i.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-194097; Thu, 24 May 2007 10:41:53 +0000 (Z) Received: from burner.fokus.fraunhofer.de (burner [10.147.65.166]) by mailhub.fokus.fraunhofer.de (8.11.6p2/8.11.6) with ESMTP id l4OAfpF09783; Thu, 24 May 2007 12:41:52 +0200 (MEST) Received: (from jes@localhost) by burner.fokus.fraunhofer.de (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/Submit) id l4OAeoVr008035; Thu, 24 May 2007 12:40:50 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 12:40:50 +0200 From: Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (Joerg Schilling) Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake In-reply-to: <4654FFD2.2070200@Sun.COM> Sender: schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de To: Garrett.Damore@sun.com, Darren.Reed@sun.com Cc: Torrey.McMahon@sun.com, psarc-ext@sun.com, John.Fischer@sun.com, James.D.Carlson@sun.com, gww@eng.sun.com, Dermot.McCluskey@sun.com, Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com Message-id: <46556bb2.L4iKFwvhzNXPZDxE%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200705231421.l4NELaRw016563@marduk.eng.sun.com> <465450CE.9030103@Sun.COM> <18004.23015.690776.436207@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <46545D3F.3030404@Sun.COM> <18004.25450.887289.29487@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <1179954066.1605.73.camel@loghost> <4654AD2B.1060306@sun.com> <4654D80E.6000900@Sun.COM> <4654F8AB.5040303@sun.com> <4654FCE0.7090403@sun.com> <4654FFD2.2070200@Sun.COM> User-Agent: nail 11.22 3/20/05 Status: RO Content-Length: 948 Darren.Reed@sun.com wrote: > Garrett D'Amore wrote: > > > ... > > I think automake/autoconf/libtool is a poster child for FOSS that we > > _should not_ include in Solaris. > > > > But contrary to that is that OpenSolaris needs to consider using > libtool in the event that it becomes fully self-hosting using source > code from the open that compiles. Either that or SUNWspro gets > open sourced :> I don't believe the same need applies to auto*. > Well, actually not libtool, but binutils. So far, I remember that most if not all projects that are using libtool do not compile correctly on Solaris. I cannot understand why people use libtool. Jörg -- EMail:joerg@schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin js@cs.tu-berlin.de (uni) schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily From Darren.Moffat@Sun.COM Thu May 24 03:48:27 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4OAmPWJ026940 for ; Thu, 24 May 2007 03:48:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4OAl8ux001401 for <@sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com:psarc-ext@sun.com>; Thu, 24 May 2007 18:47:11 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JIJ00101KMLZM00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Thu, 24 May 2007 03:47:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com ([129.156.42.6]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JIJ00BN1KMJXGF0@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Thu, 24 May 2007 03:47:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d1-emea-09.sun.com ([192.18.2.119]) by gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l4OAl7YF019360 for ; Thu, 24 May 2007 10:47:07 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-emea-09.sun.com by d1-emea-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JIJ00801KLN0C00@d1-emea-09.sun.com> (original mail from Darren.Moffat@Sun.COM) for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Thu, 24 May 2007 11:47:07 +0100 (BST) Received: from [129.156.173.21] by d1-emea-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JIJ00KAAKMILB30@d1-emea-09.sun.com>; Thu, 24 May 2007 11:47:07 +0100 (BST) Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 11:47:06 +0100 From: Darren J Moffat Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake In-reply-to: <4654afc1.xODEQSuKIlZcDJ/W%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> Sender: Darren.Moffat@Sun.COM To: Joerg Schilling Cc: jek3@Sun.COM, psarc-ext@Sun.COM, John.Fischer@Sun.COM, Garrett.Damore@Sun.COM, Dermot.McCluskey@Sun.COM, Alan.Coopersmith@Sun.COM Message-id: <46556D2A.9020302@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1179875174.57981.65.camel@sr1-umpk-57> <46537BCB.3050004@sun.com> <46537D72.8080009@sun.com> <46537E17.8050108@sun.com> <20070522233851.GD23226@Sun.COM> <4653B989.7060604@sun.com> <20070523040108.GH23226@Sun.COM> <465418bd.zGSCVgP80JlSE3Hr%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <46545147.8040407@sun.com> <465460ed.TYGsBzdlAuaHCrMg%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <46549499.9050904@sun.com> <4654afc1.xODEQSuKIlZcDJ/W%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.0 (X11/20070424) Status: RO Content-Length: 522 Joerg Schilling wrote: > But then we should also take care of the sources and put e.g. "make" into the ON > tree ;-) I know you have a smiley on the end but it is is very important that everyone understands that the location of an installed given filesystem object has no relationship what so ever to the consolidation that delivers it. Lots of people assume that the SFW consolidation doesn't devlier stuff to /usr/bin and that only SFW delivers stuff to /usr/sfw neither of those are true. -- Darren J Moffat From Darren.Moffat@sun.com Thu May 24 03:52:04 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4OAq2lw027042 for ; Thu, 24 May 2007 03:52:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4OAoiPV003464 for <@sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com:psarc-ext@sun.com>; Thu, 24 May 2007 11:50:48 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JIJ00203KSM6000@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Thu, 24 May 2007 03:50:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com ([129.156.42.5]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JIJ00238KSK4X00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Thu, 24 May 2007 03:50:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d1-emea-10.sun.com (d1-emea-10.sun.com [192.18.2.120]) by gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l4OAoiNX001969 for ; Thu, 24 May 2007 10:50:44 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-emea-10.sun.com by d1-emea-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JIJ00001KP8J200@d1-emea-10.sun.com> (original mail from Darren.Moffat@Sun.COM) for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Thu, 24 May 2007 11:50:44 +0100 (BST) Received: from [129.156.173.21] by d1-emea-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JIJ0097NKSJ8120@d1-emea-10.sun.com>; Thu, 24 May 2007 11:50:43 +0100 (BST) Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 11:50:43 +0100 From: Darren J Moffat Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake In-reply-to: <46555ed4.MGf9EA7PEBZjGStW%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> Sender: Darren.Moffat@sun.com To: Joerg Schilling Cc: Nicolas.Williams@sun.com, Casper.Dik@sun.com, psarc-ext@sun.com, John.Fischer@sun.com, James.D.Carlson@sun.com, gww@eng.sun.com, Garrett.Damore@sun.com, Dermot.McCluskey@sun.com, Darren.Reed@sun.com, Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com Message-id: <46556E03.70408@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200705231421.l4NELaRw016563@marduk.eng.sun.com> <465450CE.9030103@Sun.COM> <18004.23015.690776.436207@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <46545D3F.3030404@Sun.COM> <18004.25450.887289.29487@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <1179954066.1605.73.camel@loghost> <4654AD2B.1060306@sun.com> <1179956135.1605.89.camel@loghost> <4654D58F.6070405@Sun.COM> <20070524000148.GI23226@Sun.COM> <200705240744.l4O7icjU038078@sr1-eaft06-01.holland.sun.com> <46555ed4.MGf9EA7PEBZjGStW%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.0 (X11/20070424) Status: RO Content-Length: 674 Regardless of what you think about automake versus your stuff GNU automake is needed by developers. It is needed by those developers working *in* OpenSolaris hosted source bases because they are working with upstream source. It is also needed by developers running *on* OpenSolaris distributions. I think the assumption here is that this case is for the Solaris Express distribution of OpenSolaris and that your distro or any other can choose to include this or not. If you want your make system included in Solaris Express or other OpenSolaris distros other than your own then *please* come to ARC with a case. But that is NOT *this* case. -- Darren J Moffat From schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de Thu May 24 05:14:18 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4OCEHqw028577 for ; Thu, 24 May 2007 05:14:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4OCCpBU025793; Thu, 24 May 2007 20:12:54 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JIJ0060NOLFFO00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Thu, 24 May 2007 05:12:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.98.43]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JIJ00285OLE4T50@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Thu, 24 May 2007 05:12:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay3.sun.com (relay3.sun.com [150.143.103.54] (may be forged)) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l4OBeudO009321; Thu, 24 May 2007 12:12:50 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mms05es.sun.com ([150.143.104.94] [150.143.104.94]) by relay3.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-1541228; Thu, 24 May 2007 12:12:50 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay3.sun.com (relay3.sun.com [150.143.103.54]) by mms05es.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-1452994; Thu, 24 May 2007 12:12:49 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay41i.sun.com ([192.5.209.70] [192.5.209.70]) by relay3.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-13091312; Thu, 24 May 2007 12:12:49 +0000 (Z) Received: from mailhub.fokus.fraunhofer.de ([193.174.154.14] [193.174.154.14]) by relay4i.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-213805; Thu, 24 May 2007 12:12:49 +0000 (Z) Received: from burner.fokus.fraunhofer.de (burner [10.147.65.166]) by mailhub.fokus.fraunhofer.de (8.11.6p2/8.11.6) with ESMTP id l4OCCmF11028; Thu, 24 May 2007 14:12:48 +0200 (MEST) Received: (from jes@localhost) by burner.fokus.fraunhofer.de (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/Submit) id l4OCBlAB008124; Thu, 24 May 2007 14:11:47 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 14:11:47 +0200 From: Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (Joerg Schilling) Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake In-reply-to: <18004.46815.555612.343730@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Sender: schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de To: james.d.carlson@sun.com Cc: psarc-ext@sun.com, John.Fischer@sun.com, jek3@sun.com, Garrett.Damore@sun.com, Dermot.McCluskey@sun.com, Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com Message-id: <46558103.zgODfdYRC+JUUpMR%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1179875174.57981.65.camel@sr1-umpk-57> <46537BCB.3050004@sun.com> <46537D72.8080009@sun.com> <46537E17.8050108@sun.com> <20070522233851.GD23226@Sun.COM> <4653B989.7060604@sun.com> <20070523040108.GH23226@Sun.COM> <465418bd.zGSCVgP80JlSE3Hr%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <46545147.8040407@sun.com> <465460ed.TYGsBzdlAuaHCrMg%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <46549499.9050904@sun.com> <4654afc1.xODEQSuKIlZcDJ/W%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <18004.46815.555612.343730@gargle.gargle.HOWL> User-Agent: nail 11.22 3/20/05 Status: RO Content-Length: 1259 James Carlson wrote: > Joerg Schilling writes: > > But then we should also take care of the sources and put e.g. "make" into the ON > > tree ;-) > > This looks like a fundamental misunderstanding to me. There is no > requirement that the sources for things in /usr/bin are all delivered > from ON -- they're not all from ON, nor have they historically been so > -- or that more generally the consolidation has something to do with > the file system layout. The two are fairly independent concepts. There is a lot of software that then also does not belong into ON.... > I'd be very much opposed to including 'make' into ON. It looks like > baggage to me. The things that belong in ON are (properly, at least) > those that are related to the kernel and must be built together with > it. (Yes, it's true that some of what's in ON today is also baggage. > We just don't need more.) Could you explain why make is baggage in ON? Jörg -- EMail:joerg@schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin js@cs.tu-berlin.de (uni) schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily From Paul.Jakma@sun.com Thu May 24 05:52:14 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4OCqD7U029536 for ; Thu, 24 May 2007 05:52:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4OCorUS007208 for <@newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com:psarc-ext@sun.com>; Thu, 24 May 2007 20:50:58 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JIJ0010RQCT8H00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Thu, 24 May 2007 06:50:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com ([129.156.42.6]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JIJ00JORQCSAOE0@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Thu, 24 May 2007 06:50:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from d1-emea-09.sun.com ([192.18.2.119]) by gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l4OCoqoS006764 for ; Thu, 24 May 2007 12:50:52 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-emea-09.sun.com by d1-emea-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JIJ00B01Q6B1R00@d1-emea-09.sun.com> (original mail from Paul.Jakma@Sun.COM) for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Thu, 24 May 2007 13:50:51 +0100 (BST) Received: from melandri.lan ([62.6.163.68]) by d1-emea-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JIJ00KY1QCOLB30@d1-emea-09.sun.com>; Thu, 24 May 2007 13:50:49 +0100 (BST) Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 13:50:46 +0100 (IST) From: Paul Jakma Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake In-reply-to: <4654FCE0.7090403@sun.com> Sender: Paul.Jakma@sun.com To: "Garrett D'Amore" Cc: Torrey McMahon , Darren.Reed@sun.com, Laszlo.Peter@sun.com, James Carlson , Dermot.McCluskey@sun.com, John.Fischer@sun.com, psarc-ext@sun.com, Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com, Gary Winiger Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200705231421.l4NELaRw016563@marduk.eng.sun.com> <465450CE.9030103@Sun.COM> <18004.23015.690776.436207@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <46545D3F.3030404@Sun.COM> <18004.25450.887289.29487@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <1179954066.1605.73.camel@loghost> <4654AD2B.1060306@sun.com> <4654D80E.6000900@Sun.COM> <4654F8AB.5040303@sun.com> <4654FCE0.7090403@sun.com> Status: RO Content-Length: 1447 On Wed, 23 May 2007, Garrett D'Amore wrote: > * will users of one version generally be happy with a different version > (i.e. is there generally pretty good compatibility between versions) > > * is it something typical end-users (or even system administrators) are > going to want on their system? > > * are customers likely to be happy with what we provide? Latest stable releases should satisfy a significant portion. > * do we really save customers any effort by prepackaging it? (a few MB > download for the tiny number > of users who need it.) Course we do. Lack of packaged software is an incremental cost: For each package, the cost of having to manually download/compile/install may be relatively low to the user, but the cumulative cost across many packages of such installs along with the administrative overheads is such the user likely would be pushed into looking at BSD/ports and/or Linux distributions. I.e. you should err on the side of packaging things (presuming resources are there). > I think automake/autoconf/libtool is a poster child for FOSS that we _should > not_ include in Solaris. I'd have to conclude the opposite, myself. If someone is willing to do the work to integrate these tools, there's value in having them. regards, -- Paul Jakma, Solaris Networking Sun Microsystems, Scotland http://opensolaris.org/os/project/quagga tel: EMEA x73150 / +44 15066 73150 From Dermot.McCluskey@sun.com Thu May 24 06:15:43 2007 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4ODFhaL000033 for ; Thu, 24 May 2007 06:15:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4ODESBU005897 for <@newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com:psarc-ext@sun.com>; Thu, 24 May 2007 06:14:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JIJ00305RG3LV00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Thu, 24 May 2007 07:14:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com ([129.156.42.5]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JIJ001N6RG0N310@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Thu, 24 May 2007 07:14:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from d1-emea-09.sun.com (d1-emea-09.sun.com [192.18.2.119]) by gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l4ODENjh022501 for ; Thu, 24 May 2007 13:14:23 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-emea-09.sun.com by d1-emea-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JIJ00E01R8IRV00@d1-emea-09.sun.com> (original mail from Dermot.McCluskey@Sun.COM) for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Thu, 24 May 2007 14:14:23 +0100 (BST) Received: from [129.156.220.75] by d1-emea-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JIJ00GEDRFYMKXM@d1-emea-09.sun.com>; Thu, 24 May 2007 14:14:23 +0100 (BST) Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 14:14:22 +0100 From: Dermot.McCluskey@sun.com Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake In-reply-to: Sender: Dermot.McCluskey@sun.com To: Paul Jakma Cc: "Garrett D'Amore" , Torrey McMahon , Darren.Reed@sun.com, Laszlo.Peter@sun.com, James Carlson , John.Fischer@sun.com, psarc-ext@sun.com, Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com, Gary Winiger Message-id: <46558FAE.7000102@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en-us, en X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200705231421.l4NELaRw016563@marduk.eng.sun.com> <465450CE.9030103@Sun.COM> <18004.23015.690776.436207@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <46545D3F.3030404@Sun.COM> <18004.25450.887289.29487@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <1179954066.1605.73.camel@loghost> <4654AD2B.1060306@sun.com> <4654D80E.6000900@Sun.COM> <4654F8AB.5040303@sun.com> <4654FCE0.7090403@sun.com> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; SunOS sun4u; en-US; rv:1.7) Gecko/20070109 Status: RO Content-Length: 1685 > Latest stable releases should satisfy a significant portion. The Automake docs say that they intend for multiple versions to be installed simultaneously: Automake installs versioned binaries. This means you can install several versions of Automake in the same `$prefix', and can select an arbitrary Automake version by running automake-1.6 or automake-1.7 without juggling with `$PATH' (http://sources.redhat.com/automake/automake.html#API-versioning ) Installing the latest stable version and the 1 older version that we know is currently required to build our own software should satisfy (random statistic alert:) 99% of users. >> * do we really save customers any effort by prepackaging it? (a >> few MB download for the tiny number >> of users who need it.) > > > Course we do. Lack of packaged software is an incremental cost: For > each package, the cost of having to manually download/compile/install > may be relatively low to the user, but the cumulative cost across many > packages of such installs along with the administrative overheads is > such the user likely would be pushed into looking at BSD/ports and/or > Linux distributions. > > I.e. you should err on the side of packaging things (presuming > resources are there). > >> I think automake/autoconf/libtool is a poster child for FOSS that we >> _should not_ include in Solaris. > > > I'd have to conclude the opposite, myself. > > If someone is willing to do the work to integrate these tools, there's > value in having them. Stongly agree. If we're serious about attracting developers to Solaris, this is the kind of utility they will expect to find available. - Dermot From carlsonj@phorcys.east.sun.com Thu May 24 09:36:07 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4OGa6YT004441 for ; Thu, 24 May 2007 09:36:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4OGYbRI024827; Thu, 24 May 2007 17:34:48 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JIK001050PWEM00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Thu, 24 May 2007 10:34:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com ([129.148.174.143]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JIK00HX40PWF7D0@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Thu, 24 May 2007 10:34:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l4OGYhoU007359; Thu, 24 May 2007 12:34:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from carlsonj@localhost) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1/Submit) id l4OGYh6t007356; Thu, 24 May 2007 12:34:43 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 12:34:43 -0400 From: James Carlson Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake In-reply-to: <46558103.zgODfdYRC+JUUpMR%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> To: Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (Joerg Schilling) Cc: psarc-ext@sun.com, John.Fischer@sun.com, jek3@sun.com, Garrett.Damore@sun.com, Dermot.McCluskey@sun.com, Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com Message-id: <18005.48803.650870.507839@gargle.gargle.HOWL> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: VM 7.01 under Emacs 21.3.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1179875174.57981.65.camel@sr1-umpk-57> <46537BCB.3050004@sun.com> <46537D72.8080009@sun.com> <46537E17.8050108@sun.com> <20070522233851.GD23226@Sun.COM> <4653B989.7060604@sun.com> <20070523040108.GH23226@Sun.COM> <465418bd.zGSCVgP80JlSE3Hr%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <46545147.8040407@sun.com> <465460ed.TYGsBzdlAuaHCrMg%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <46549499.9050904@sun.com> <4654afc1.xODEQSuKIlZcDJ/W%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <18004.46815.555612.343730@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <46558103.zgODfdYRC+JUUpMR%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> Status: RO Content-Length: 2225 Joerg Schilling writes: > James Carlson wrote: > > -- or that more generally the consolidation has something to do with > > the file system layout. The two are fairly independent concepts. > > There is a lot of software that then also does not belong into ON.... Indeed. > > I'd be very much opposed to including 'make' into ON. It looks like > > baggage to me. The things that belong in ON are (properly, at least) > > those that are related to the kernel and must be built together with > > it. (Yes, it's true that some of what's in ON today is also baggage. > > We just don't need more.) > > Could you explain why make is baggage in ON? As best I can tell, there's nothing about the operation of 'make' that depends on any private interfaces in the kernel itself or in any of the kernel-entangled libraries (such as libc). There's no particular reason I can see to believe that maintaining and building 'make' at the same time the rest of ON would alleviate any particular problems. Nor is there any reason that you'd have a [binary] patch that'd contain a new 'make' executable that needs to be synchronized with anything else from ON. The interfaces that 'make' depends on and offers are all standards-compliant and well-defined interfaces, and the results it produces are not bound tightly with anything that ON code needs to do. It doesn't seem to share fate. Thus, integrating it in ON would represent "baggage:" stuff that's built alongside the rest of the ON bits but that could comfortably live just about anywhere else in the world. Contrast that with (say) libc or the VM subsystem. These are things that couldn't reasonably be built anywhere else. There are too many private and rapidly-changing interfaces between either of those and the rest of the ON consolidation. Building them elsewhere would be a disaster: we'd forever be having cross-consolidation flag days, build failures, and complex (and perhaps unresolvable) patching scenarios. -- James Carlson, Solaris Networking Sun Microsystems / 1 Network Drive 71.232W Vox +1 781 442 2084 MS UBUR02-212 / Burlington MA 01803-2757 42.496N Fax +1 781 442 1677 From schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de Thu May 24 10:07:46 2007 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4OH7k2C005142 for ; Thu, 24 May 2007 10:07:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4OH6SQf017172; Thu, 24 May 2007 10:06:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JIK0044D26TJH00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Thu, 24 May 2007 11:06:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sca-ea-mail-3.sun.com ([192.18.43.21]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JIK002RL26QYD40@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Thu, 24 May 2007 11:06:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay24.sun.com (ip192-12-251-74.block6.us.syntegra.com [192.12.251.74]) by sca-ea-mail-3.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l4OH6PtI017259; Thu, 24 May 2007 17:06:25 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mms25es.sun.com ([150.143.232.94] [150.143.232.94]) by relay24.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-641496; Thu, 24 May 2007 17:06:25 +0000 (Z) Received: from mms23bas.mms.us.syntegra.com (relay23.mms.us.syntegra.com [192.12.251.50]) by mms25es.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-1732148; Thu, 24 May 2007 17:06:24 +0000 (Z) Received: from mailhub.fokus.fraunhofer.de ([193.174.154.14] [193.174.154.14]) by relay23.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-7251604; Thu, 24 May 2007 17:06:24 +0000 (Z) Received: from burner.fokus.fraunhofer.de (burner [10.147.65.166]) by mailhub.fokus.fraunhofer.de (8.11.6p2/8.11.6) with ESMTP id l4OH6MF14451; Thu, 24 May 2007 19:06:22 +0200 (MEST) Received: (from jes@localhost) by burner.fokus.fraunhofer.de (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/Submit) id l4OH5Lo9010092; Thu, 24 May 2007 19:05:21 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 19:05:21 +0200 From: Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (Joerg Schilling) Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake In-reply-to: <18005.48803.650870.507839@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Sender: schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de To: james.d.carlson@sun.com Cc: psarc-ext@sun.com, John.Fischer@sun.com, jek3@sun.com, Garrett.Damore@sun.com, Dermot.McCluskey@sun.com, Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com Message-id: <4655c5d1.Ce9cELjlrMlLEvXK%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1179875174.57981.65.camel@sr1-umpk-57> <46537BCB.3050004@sun.com> <46537D72.8080009@sun.com> <46537E17.8050108@sun.com> <20070522233851.GD23226@Sun.COM> <4653B989.7060604@sun.com> <20070523040108.GH23226@Sun.COM> <465418bd.zGSCVgP80JlSE3Hr%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <46545147.8040407@sun.com> <465460ed.TYGsBzdlAuaHCrMg%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <46549499.9050904@sun.com> <4654afc1.xODEQSuKIlZcDJ/W%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <18004.46815.555612.343730@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <46558103.zgODfdYRC+JUUpMR%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <18005.48803.650870.507839@gargle.gargle.HOWL> User-Agent: Heirloom mailx 12.2 01/07/07 Status: RO Content-Length: 1247 > > > I'd be very much opposed to including 'make' into ON. It looks like > > > baggage to me. The things that belong in ON are (properly, at least) > > > those that are related to the kernel and must be built together with > > > it. (Yes, it's true that some of what's in ON today is also baggage. > > > We just don't need more.) > > > > Could you explain why make is baggage in ON? > > As best I can tell, there's nothing about the operation of 'make' that > depends on any private interfaces in the kernel itself or in any of > the kernel-entangled libraries (such as libc). There's no particular > reason I can see to believe that maintaining and building 'make' at > the same time the rest of ON would alleviate any particular problems. > Nor is there any reason that you'd have a [binary] patch that'd > contain a new 'make' executable that needs to be synchronized with > anything else from ON. But ON is more than just the kernel. Jörg -- EMail:joerg@schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin js@cs.tu-berlin.de (uni) schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily From John.Plocher@sun.com Thu May 24 10:24:33 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4OHOW25005741 for ; Thu, 24 May 2007 10:24:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4OHN4Oh012532 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:psarc-ext@sun.com>; Fri, 25 May 2007 01:23:17 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JIK007012YPOX00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Thu, 24 May 2007 10:23:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-ea-fw-1.sun.com ([10.4.134.5]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JIK000IB2YO8IE0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Thu, 24 May 2007 10:23:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d1-sfbay-10.sun.com ([192.18.39.120]) by nwk-ea-fw-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l4OHNCi8029911 for ; Thu, 24 May 2007 10:23:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-sfbay-10.sun.com by d1-sfbay-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JIK004012XI4S00@d1-sfbay-10.sun.com> (original mail from John.Plocher@Sun.COM) for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Thu, 24 May 2007 10:23:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [129.146.58.87] by d1-sfbay-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JIK0065M2YOGYM4@d1-sfbay-10.sun.com>; Thu, 24 May 2007 10:23:12 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 10:23:08 -0700 From: John Plocher Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake In-reply-to: <4655c5d1.Ce9cELjlrMlLEvXK%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> Sender: John.Plocher@sun.com To: Joerg Schilling Cc: James.D.Carlson@sun.com, John.Fischer@sun.com, Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com, jek3@sun.com, psarc-ext@sun.com, Garrett.Damore@sun.com, Dermot.McCluskey@sun.com Message-id: <4655C9FC.6070204@Sun.Com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1179875174.57981.65.camel@sr1-umpk-57> <46537BCB.3050004@sun.com> <46537D72.8080009@sun.com> <46537E17.8050108@sun.com> <20070522233851.GD23226@Sun.COM> <4653B989.7060604@sun.com> <20070523040108.GH23226@Sun.COM> <465418bd.zGSCVgP80JlSE3Hr%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <46545147.8040407@sun.com> <465460ed.TYGsBzdlAuaHCrMg%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <46549499.9050904@sun.com> <4654afc1.xODEQSuKIlZcDJ/W%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <18004.46815.555612.343730@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <46558103.zgODfdYRC+JUUpMR%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <18005.48803.650870.507839@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4655c5d1.Ce9cELjlrMlLEvXK%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Macintosh/20070221) Status: RO Content-Length: 698 Joerg Schilling wrote: > But ON is more than just the kernel. Some (many?) of us feel that that is a bug. There is a [very difficult] project waiting for someone here, to refactor ON into a few smaller, independent parts. The obvious split is to move all the posix/binutils out into their own consolidation; another (not so obvious or easy) one is to split out the various device drivers. There may be other desirable spin-off's as well. Sun went thru a phase years ago where it was convenient to dump everything into ON rather than figure out how to manage an independent consolidation - and we have been paying for those choices ever since in added complexity, build times, etc. -John From danek.duvall@sun.com Thu May 24 11:29:34 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4OITX3Y007261 for ; Thu, 24 May 2007 11:29:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4OIRtru005695 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-EXT@sun.com>; Fri, 25 May 2007 02:28:18 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JIK00D015Z26500@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Thu, 24 May 2007 11:28:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sfbaymail1sca.SFBay.Sun.COM ([129.145.154.35]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JIK007FV5Z2V140@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Thu, 24 May 2007 11:28:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zruty.sfbay.sun.com (zruty.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.168.40]) by sfbaymail1sca.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4OISDkq004842; Thu, 24 May 2007 11:28:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zruty.sfbay.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zruty.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.0+Sun/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l4OIRm8q015597; Thu, 24 May 2007 11:27:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from dduvall@localhost) by zruty.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.0+Sun/8.14.0/Submit) id l4OIRmnn015596; Thu, 24 May 2007 11:27:48 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 11:27:48 -0700 From: Danek Duvall Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake (latest version symlink) In-reply-to: <1179875174.57981.65.camel@sr1-umpk-57> To: John Fischer Cc: PSARC-EXT@sun.com, Dermot McCluskey Message-id: <20070524182748.GO11507@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1179875174.57981.65.camel@sr1-umpk-57> User-Agent: mutt-ng/devel-r535 (SunOS) Status: RO Content-Length: 651 Just a comment on the latest version symlink issue ... Gentoo has a different solution, and it looks like it was taken from Mandrake. /usr/bin/automake (and aclocal) are actually a wrapper script that does a little poking in the project that you're working on. Specifically, if any of - The $WANT_AUTOMAKE environment variable - Makefile.in - aclocal.m4 specify an automake version, it'll use that version. Failing that, it defaults to the latest installed. (I'm not sure what happens if the version that was requested isn't available.) Would this sort of mechanism alleviate any of the concerns surrounding this particular issue? Danek From schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de Thu May 24 13:24:58 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4OKOv7F010297 for ; Thu, 24 May 2007 13:24:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4OKNSb0012353; Fri, 25 May 2007 04:23:37 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JIK00003BBCT000@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Thu, 24 May 2007 13:23:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sca-ea-mail-4.sun.com ([192.18.43.22]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JIK007GTBBBV7A0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Thu, 24 May 2007 13:23:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay2.sun.com (relay2.sun.com [150.143.103.24] (may be forged)) by sca-ea-mail-4.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l4OK40EU019111; Thu, 24 May 2007 20:23:35 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mms05es.sun.com ([150.143.104.94] [150.143.104.94]) by relay2.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-1646710; Thu, 24 May 2007 20:23:34 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay2.sun.com (relay2.sun.com [150.143.103.24]) by mms05es.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-255096; Thu, 24 May 2007 20:23:34 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay41i.sun.com ([192.5.209.70] [192.5.209.70]) by relay2.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-13690025; Thu, 24 May 2007 20:23:34 +0000 (Z) Received: from mailhub.fokus.fraunhofer.de ([193.174.154.14] [193.174.154.14]) by relay4i.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-351426; Thu, 24 May 2007 20:23:34 +0000 (Z) Received: from burner.fokus.fraunhofer.de (burner [10.147.65.166]) by mailhub.fokus.fraunhofer.de (8.11.6p2/8.11.6) with ESMTP id l4OKNWF15636; Thu, 24 May 2007 22:23:32 +0200 (MEST) Received: (from jes@localhost) by burner.fokus.fraunhofer.de (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/Submit) id l4OKMVlD010357; Thu, 24 May 2007 22:22:31 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 22:22:30 +0200 From: Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (Joerg Schilling) Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake In-reply-to: <4654BCAD.7010408@sun.com> Sender: schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de To: jek3@sun.com Cc: psarc-ext@sun.com, John.Fischer@sun.com, Garrett.Damore@sun.com, Dermot.McCluskey@sun.com, alan.coopersmith@sun.com Message-id: <4655f406.6yFcAnpaHkKaDQwr%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1179875174.57981.65.camel@sr1-umpk-57> <46537BCB.3050004@sun.com> <46537D72.8080009@sun.com> <46537E17.8050108@sun.com> <20070522233851.GD23226@Sun.COM> <4653B989.7060604@sun.com> <20070523040108.GH23226@Sun.COM> <465418bd.zGSCVgP80JlSE3Hr%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <46545147.8040407@sun.com> <465460ed.TYGsBzdlAuaHCrMg%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <46549499.9050904@sun.com> <4654afc1.xODEQSuKIlZcDJ/W%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <4654BCAD.7010408@sun.com> User-Agent: nail 11.22 3/20/05 Status: RO Content-Length: 669 Joseph Kowalski wrote: > When I started at Sun some 17 years ago I was very surprised to find > that OS (before ON) > owned ld while the compiler group owned libm. People still laugh at me > for briefly trying > to change that. There may be a simple explanation: ld and cc have been part of the os in the 1970s but Sun's cc is a derivate from pcc. Jörg -- EMail:joerg@schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin js@cs.tu-berlin.de (uni) schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily From sommerfeld@sun.com Thu May 24 14:05:52 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4OL5peo011199 for ; Thu, 24 May 2007 14:05:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4OL4TsL023753; Thu, 24 May 2007 22:04:35 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JIK00409D7NLM00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Thu, 24 May 2007 14:04:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eastmail4bur.east.Sun.COM ([129.148.13.1]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JIK007J3D7MV7C0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Thu, 24 May 2007 14:04:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thunk.east.sun.com (thunk.East.Sun.COM [129.148.174.66]) by eastmail4bur.east.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4OL4Vg0008544; Thu, 24 May 2007 17:04:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [IPv6:::1] (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by thunk.east.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4OL4Vln004874; Thu, 24 May 2007 17:04:31 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 17:04:30 -0400 From: Bill Sommerfeld Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake In-reply-to: <4655f406.6yFcAnpaHkKaDQwr%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> To: Joerg Schilling Cc: jek3@sun.com, John.Fischer@sun.com, psarc-ext@sun.com, Dermot.McCluskey@sun.com, alan.coopersmith@sun.com, Garrett.Damore@sun.com Message-id: <1180040670.4331.14.camel@thunk> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.8.1.1 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1179875174.57981.65.camel@sr1-umpk-57> <46537BCB.3050004@sun.com> <46537D72.8080009@sun.com> <46537E17.8050108@sun.com> <20070522233851.GD23226@Sun.COM> <4653B989.7060604@sun.com> <20070523040108.GH23226@Sun.COM> <465418bd.zGSCVgP80JlSE3Hr%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <46545147.8040407@sun.com> <465460ed.TYGsBzdlAuaHCrMg%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <46549499.9050904@sun.com> <4654afc1.xODEQSuKIlZcDJ/W%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <4654BCAD.7010408@sun.com> <4655f406.6yFcAnpaHkKaDQwr%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> Status: RO Content-Length: 533 On Thu, 2007-05-24 at 22:22 +0200, Joerg Schilling wrote: > There may be a simple explanation.. Then again, there may not be. I don't know. I wasn't there, you haven't said you were there. Joe has at least talked to people who were there, and that's better than either of us. Unauthoritative speculation about the motivation for past decisions in other organizations does not help PSARC to evaluate the proposal at hand: integrating GNU automake. Please try to stay on topic and avoid these sorts of ratholes. - Bill From jek3@sun.com Thu May 24 14:37:00 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4OLaxl8011651 for ; Thu, 24 May 2007 14:37:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4OLZeDK003496; Thu, 24 May 2007 22:35:42 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JIK0071TENHD000@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Thu, 24 May 2007 15:35:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: from jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com ([129.146.17.63]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JIK003VCENDPT10@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Thu, 24 May 2007 15:35:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [129.150.12.53] (vpn-129-150-12-53.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.12.53]) by jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l4OLZXi3431456; Thu, 24 May 2007 14:35:34 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 11:35:25 -1000 From: Joseph Kowalski Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake In-reply-to: <4655f406.6yFcAnpaHkKaDQwr%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> To: Joerg Schilling Cc: psarc-ext@sun.com, John.Fischer@sun.com, Garrett.Damore@sun.com, Dermot.McCluskey@sun.com, alan.coopersmith@sun.com Message-id: <4656051D.7020907@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1179875174.57981.65.camel@sr1-umpk-57> <46537BCB.3050004@sun.com> <46537D72.8080009@sun.com> <46537E17.8050108@sun.com> <20070522233851.GD23226@Sun.COM> <4653B989.7060604@sun.com> <20070523040108.GH23226@Sun.COM> <465418bd.zGSCVgP80JlSE3Hr%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <46545147.8040407@sun.com> <465460ed.TYGsBzdlAuaHCrMg%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <46549499.9050904@sun.com> <4654afc1.xODEQSuKIlZcDJ/W%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <4654BCAD.7010408@sun.com> <4655f406.6yFcAnpaHkKaDQwr%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060925) Status: RO Content-Length: 814 Joerg Schilling wrote: > Joseph Kowalski wrote: > > >> When I started at Sun some 17 years ago I was very surprised to find >> that OS (before ON) >> owned ld while the compiler group owned libm. People still laugh at me >> for briefly trying >> to change that. >> > > There may be a simple explanation: > > ld and cc have been part of the os in the 1970s but Sun's cc is a derivate > from pcc. > > Jörg > Nothing like that. Rob Gingell, Mr. ld.so.1 himself, was a senior fellow in the OS group. Hence ld went with ld.so.1 went with the OS. The libm guy, whose name I've forgotten, went with the compiler group because he liked the management there. I enjoy talking history, but this is getting out of hand. Better over a beer, or at least on a smaller distribution. - jek3 From schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de Thu May 24 15:08:17 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4OM8GKS012570 for ; Thu, 24 May 2007 15:08:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4OM6ojT014703; Fri, 25 May 2007 06:06:55 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JIK00A01G3GD500@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Thu, 24 May 2007 16:06:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sca-ea-mail-4.sun.com ([192.18.43.22]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JIK003KEG3GPK30@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Thu, 24 May 2007 16:06:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay23.sun.com (relay23.sun.com [192.12.251.54] (may be forged)) by sca-ea-mail-4.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l4OM6plq025756; Thu, 24 May 2007 22:06:51 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mms22es.sun.com ([150.143.232.34] [150.143.232.34]) by relay23.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-2341; Thu, 24 May 2007 22:06:51 +0000 (Z) Received: from mms25bas.mms.us.syntegra.com (ip192-12-251-90.block6.us.syntegra.com [192.12.251.90]) by mms22es.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-199117; Thu, 24 May 2007 22:06:51 +0000 (Z) Received: from mailhub.fokus.fraunhofer.de ([193.174.154.14] [193.174.154.14]) by relay21.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-15131064; Thu, 24 May 2007 22:06:51 +0000 (Z) Received: from burner.fokus.fraunhofer.de (burner [10.147.65.166]) by mailhub.fokus.fraunhofer.de (8.11.6p2/8.11.6) with ESMTP id l4OM6nF16835; Fri, 25 May 2007 00:06:49 +0200 (MEST) Received: (from jes@localhost) by burner.fokus.fraunhofer.de (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/Submit) id l4OM5lCJ010512; Fri, 25 May 2007 00:05:47 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 00:05:47 +0200 From: Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (Joerg Schilling) Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake In-reply-to: <46548E67.7050408@sun.com> Sender: schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de To: jek3@sun.com Cc: psarc-ext@sun.com, John.Fischer@sun.com, Garrett.Damore@sun.com, Dermot.McCluskey@sun.com, Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com Message-id: <46560c3b.8YkagR0BYzoi2fch%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1179875174.57981.65.camel@sr1-umpk-57> <46537BCB.3050004@sun.com> <46537D72.8080009@sun.com> <46537E17.8050108@sun.com> <465380B5.1090904@sun.com> <465406a3.vVi1c+WPXY5A1RPm%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <46548E67.7050408@sun.com> User-Agent: nail 11.22 3/20/05 Status: RO Content-Length: 775 Joseph Kowalski wrote: > >> We don't have the infrastructure for the "apt-get" easy download you > >> propose. Quite a shame that is... :-( > >> > > > > If you are talking about auto-fetching the source, there is src-get that > > allows you to build everything starting from a small shell script. > > > > Jörg > > > The script is a tiny part of the problem. Its the infrastructure to > support it. My src-get auto-installs the infrastructure..... Jörg -- EMail:joerg@schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin js@cs.tu-berlin.de (uni) schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily From sommerfeld@sun.com Thu May 24 15:25:07 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4OMP6MX012724 for ; Thu, 24 May 2007 15:25:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4OMNVMK016140; Thu, 24 May 2007 23:23:49 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JIK00B0NGVN8R00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Thu, 24 May 2007 15:23:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eastmail2bur.East.Sun.COM ([129.148.13.40]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JIK002ADGVLPJD0@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Thu, 24 May 2007 15:23:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thunk.east.sun.com (thunk.East.Sun.COM [129.148.174.66]) by eastmail2bur.East.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4OMNgEt012127; Thu, 24 May 2007 18:23:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [IPv6:::1] (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by thunk.east.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4OMNgYB005060; Thu, 24 May 2007 18:23:42 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 18:23:41 -0400 From: Bill Sommerfeld Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake In-reply-to: <46560c3b.8YkagR0BYzoi2fch%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> To: Joerg Schilling Cc: jek3@sun.com, John.Fischer@sun.com, psarc-ext@sun.com, Dermot.McCluskey@sun.com, Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com, Garrett.Damore@sun.com Message-id: <1180045421.4331.29.camel@thunk> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.8.1.1 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1179875174.57981.65.camel@sr1-umpk-57> <46537BCB.3050004@sun.com> <46537D72.8080009@sun.com> <46537E17.8050108@sun.com> <465380B5.1090904@sun.com> <465406a3.vVi1c+WPXY5A1RPm%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <46548E67.7050408@sun.com> <46560c3b.8YkagR0BYzoi2fch%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> Status: RO Content-Length: 333 On Fri, 2007-05-25 at 00:05 +0200, Joerg Schilling wrote: > > The script is a tiny part of the problem. Its the infrastructure to > > support it. > > My src-get auto-installs the infrastructure..... again, this is off-topic for this case and doesn't help us decide if and how to integrate automake into solaris. - Bill From Dermot.McCluskey@sun.com Fri May 25 03:41:46 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4PAfj2x027628 for ; Fri, 25 May 2007 03:41:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4PAeDAD009771 for <@sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-EXT@sun.com>; Fri, 25 May 2007 11:40:29 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JIL00A0DEZGD600@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Fri, 25 May 2007 03:40:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com ([129.156.42.5]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JIL0011VEZEQK20@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Fri, 25 May 2007 03:40:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d1-emea-10.sun.com (d1-emea-10.sun.com [192.18.2.120]) by gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l4PAeQWC015889 for ; Fri, 25 May 2007 10:40:26 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-emea-10.sun.com by d1-emea-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JIL00601EXQDU00@d1-emea-10.sun.com> (original mail from Dermot.McCluskey@Sun.COM) for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Fri, 25 May 2007 11:40:26 +0100 (BST) Received: from [129.156.220.75] by d1-emea-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JIL001WGEZDELDB@d1-emea-10.sun.com>; Fri, 25 May 2007 11:40:26 +0100 (BST) Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 11:40:25 +0100 From: Dermot.McCluskey@sun.com Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake (latest version symlink) In-reply-to: <20070524182748.GO11507@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> Sender: Dermot.McCluskey@sun.com To: Danek Duvall Cc: John Fischer , PSARC-EXT@sun.com Message-id: <4656BD19.1080704@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en-us, en X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1179875174.57981.65.camel@sr1-umpk-57> <20070524182748.GO11507@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; SunOS sun4u; en-US; rv:1.7) Gecko/20070109 Status: RO Content-Length: 831 Danek Duvall wrote: >Just a comment on the latest version symlink issue ... > >Gentoo has a different solution, and it looks like it was taken from >Mandrake. /usr/bin/automake (and aclocal) are actually a wrapper script >that does a little poking in the project that you're working on. > > If PSARC place a recommendation or requirement on this case to either remove the latest-version-symlink or to implement a Gentoo/Mandrake-style best-version-finding script, then I'm fine with that. My proposed method of a simple link to the latest known version was intended as a convenience, but is not a core part of the case. Slightly OT - if there were only 1 version installed, would a non-version-suffixed symlink to the one and only installed version be OK? (This is in relation to another case I'm working on.) - Dermot From danek.duvall@sun.com Fri May 25 08:21:45 2007 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4PFLjYA001003 for ; Fri, 25 May 2007 08:21:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4PFKPxf016393 for <@newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com:PSARC-EXT@Sun.COM>; Fri, 25 May 2007 08:20:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JIL0031XRY3BG00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for PSARC-EXT@Sun.COM (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@Sun.COM); Fri, 25 May 2007 09:20:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sfbaymail1sca.SFBay.Sun.COM ([129.145.154.35]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JIL00GLERXZCR50@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for PSARC-EXT@Sun.COM (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@Sun.COM); Fri, 25 May 2007 09:20:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from zruty.sfbay.sun.com (zruty.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.168.40]) by sfbaymail1sca.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4PFKMub002674; Fri, 25 May 2007 08:20:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zruty.sfbay.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zruty.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.0+Sun/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l4PFJuYP024849; Fri, 25 May 2007 08:19:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from dduvall@localhost) by zruty.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.0+Sun/8.14.0/Submit) id l4PFJuPt024848; Fri, 25 May 2007 08:19:56 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 08:19:56 -0700 From: Danek Duvall Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake (latest version symlink) In-reply-to: <4656BD19.1080704@Sun.COM> To: Dermot.McCluskey@sun.com Cc: John Fischer , psarc-ext@sun.com Message-id: <20070525151956.GE11507@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1179875174.57981.65.camel@sr1-umpk-57> <20070524182748.GO11507@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <4656BD19.1080704@Sun.COM> User-Agent: mutt-ng/devel-r535 (SunOS) Status: RO Content-Length: 1176 On Fri, May 25, 2007 at 11:40:25AM +0100, Dermot.McCluskey@Sun.COM wrote: > If PSARC place a recommendation or requirement on this case > to either remove the latest-version-symlink or to implement a > Gentoo/Mandrake-style best-version-finding script, then I'm fine > with that. I don't think PSARC is going to do either one, at the moment, but there's so much noise regarding this bit, it's hard to tell. I suggested this because people seemed to be upset with the symlink for various reasons, and I think this script addresses those issues, though possibly it raises others. Seems like you have a couple of choices in this regard: - Stick with the symlink. Might be an uphill battle. - Remove the symlink from the case. Addresses the objections against the symlink, but maybe someone will complain that a bare "automake" isn't present. - Propose the script. Too early to say whether anyone will have any objections to that. But figure *someone* will complain. ;-) It's still up to you to decide what you want to do, and try to persuade PSARC that it's what they should approve. They just may make some proposals harder than others. :) Danek From John.Plocher@sun.com Fri May 25 10:15:14 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4PHFDS0002865 for ; Fri, 25 May 2007 10:15:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4PHDpqm009368 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-EXT@sun.com>; Fri, 25 May 2007 18:13:56 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JIL00B07X773B00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Fri, 25 May 2007 10:13:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-ea-fw-1.sun.com ([10.4.134.6]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JIL00EHAX77FVD0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Fri, 25 May 2007 10:13:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d1-sfbay-09.sun.com ([192.18.39.119]) by nwk-ea-fw-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l4PHDsdd012217 for ; Fri, 25 May 2007 10:13:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-sfbay-09.sun.com by d1-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JIL00601X572S00@d1-sfbay-09.sun.com> (original mail from John.Plocher@Sun.COM) for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Fri, 25 May 2007 10:13:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.168.4] ([66.166.204.98]) by d1-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JIL002IXX76DIXM@d1-sfbay-09.sun.com>; Fri, 25 May 2007 10:13:54 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 10:13:50 -0700 From: John Plocher Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake (latest version symlink) In-reply-to: <4656BD19.1080704@Sun.COM> Sender: John.Plocher@sun.com To: Dermot.McCluskey@sun.com Cc: Danek Duvall , John Fischer , PSARC-EXT@sun.com Message-id: <4657194E.2000001@Sun.Com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1179875174.57981.65.camel@sr1-umpk-57> <20070524182748.GO11507@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <4656BD19.1080704@Sun.COM> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Macintosh/20070221) Status: RO Content-Length: 696 Dermot.McCluskey@Sun.COM wrote: > Slightly OT - if there were only 1 version installed, would a > non-version-suffixed symlink to the one and only installed version > be OK? (This is in relation to another case I'm working on.) In places where we need older versions for runtime compatibility, but developers/users generally only care about "latest", we do this frequently - see the libfoo.so->libfoo.versionnumber.so links in /usr/lib, the /usr/bin/java links, etc). If this is simply asking about a degenerate case for automake like things, where the expectation is that there may not be a single preferred version (and a future install might muddy the waters), then maybe not... -John From Garrett.Damore@sun.com Fri May 25 14:18:45 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4PLIiGN006050 for ; Fri, 25 May 2007 14:18:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4PLHL1h020047 for <@sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com:psarc-ext@sun.com>; Fri, 25 May 2007 22:17:28 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JIM00J038GZ0Q00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Fri, 25 May 2007 14:17:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-ea-fw-1.sun.com ([10.4.134.6]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JIM00DDG8GU3E50@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Fri, 25 May 2007 14:17:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d1-sfbay-09.sun.com ([192.18.39.119]) by nwk-ea-fw-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l4PLHItB006414 for ; Fri, 25 May 2007 14:17:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-sfbay-09.sun.com by d1-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JIM000018EXVG00@d1-sfbay-09.sun.com> (original mail from Garrett.Damore@Sun.COM) for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Fri, 25 May 2007 14:17:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.251.21] ([76.174.83.55]) by d1-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JIM00G8D8GTWEZ1@d1-sfbay-09.sun.com>; Fri, 25 May 2007 14:17:17 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 14:15:53 -0700 From: "Garrett D'Amore" Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake In-reply-to: <4655C9FC.6070204@Sun.Com> Sender: Garrett.Damore@sun.com To: John Plocher Cc: Joerg Schilling , James.D.Carlson@sun.com, John.Fischer@sun.com, Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com, jek3@sun.com, psarc-ext@sun.com, Dermot.McCluskey@sun.com Message-id: <46575209.10507@sun.com> Organization: Sun Microsystems MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1179875174.57981.65.camel@sr1-umpk-57> <46537BCB.3050004@sun.com> <46537D72.8080009@sun.com> <46537E17.8050108@sun.com> <20070522233851.GD23226@Sun.COM> <4653B989.7060604@sun.com> <20070523040108.GH23226@Sun.COM> <465418bd.zGSCVgP80JlSE3Hr%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <46545147.8040407@sun.com> <465460ed.TYGsBzdlAuaHCrMg%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <46549499.9050904@sun.com> <4654afc1.xODEQSuKIlZcDJ/W%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <18004.46815.555612.343730@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <46558103.zgODfdYRC+JUUpMR%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <18005.48803.650870.507839@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4655c5d1.Ce9cELjlrMlLEvXK%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <4655C9FC.6070204@Sun.Com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0b2 (X11/20070227) Status: RO Content-Length: 2005 John Plocher wrote: > Joerg Schilling wrote: >> But ON is more than just the kernel. > > > Some (many?) of us feel that that is a bug. > > There is a [very difficult] project waiting for someone here, > to refactor ON into a few smaller, independent parts. > > The obvious split is to move all the posix/binutils out into > their own consolidation; another (not so obvious or easy) one > is to split out the various device drivers. There may be other > desirable spin-off's as well. Splitting off device drivers creates a few unfortunate problems. 1) Lots of drivers in ON are there because they make use of ON-private APIs. For example, all the GLDv3 NIC drivers. Pretty much any nexus driver. etc. The sad truth is that while a lot of progress has been made here since S9, there is still a way to go before most drivers will be able to be DDI compliant. 2) A non-trivial number of drivers have special interactions with install. (E.g. SUNWcar sets up /etc/driver_aliases, etc.) 3) A non-trivial number of drivers have special interactions with other commands, some times private, sometimes not. > > Sun went thru a phase years ago where it was convenient to > dump everything into ON rather than figure out how to manage > an independent consolidation - and we have been paying for > those choices ever since in added complexity, build times, > etc. I'd love to see some of the meatier parts of userland moved out. Putting perl in ON, for example, seems like an astonishingly poor choice in retrospect. But then I guess following the example set by sendmail, named, etc. didn't seem like such a bad idea the time. The problem I think is that management sees no value in addressing the problem here, because it doesn't have any tangible impact on what we deliver to customers. But I'd still love to see someone take apart some of those bigger bits of userland from ON. I think the kernel bits (including drivers) really should stay there for now, though. -- Garrett From jek3@sun.com Fri May 25 16:17:30 2007 Received: from newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (newsunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.245]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4PNHUSb008047 for ; Fri, 25 May 2007 16:17:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4PNFxrs020742; Fri, 25 May 2007 17:15:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JIM00511DYZB800@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Fri, 25 May 2007 17:16:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: from jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com ([129.146.17.63]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JIM0094KDYXT4C0@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Fri, 25 May 2007 17:16:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [129.150.12.53] (vpn-129-150-12-53.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.12.53]) by jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l4PNG8d4263171; Fri, 25 May 2007 16:16:08 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 13:15:58 -1000 From: Joseph Kowalski Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake (latest version symlink) In-reply-to: <4656BD19.1080704@Sun.COM> To: Dermot.McCluskey@sun.com Cc: Danek Duvall , John Fischer , PSARC-EXT@sun.com Message-id: <46576E2E.1010005@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1179875174.57981.65.camel@sr1-umpk-57> <20070524182748.GO11507@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <4656BD19.1080704@Sun.COM> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060925) Status: RO Content-Length: 1147 Dermot.McCluskey@sun.com wrote: > Danek Duvall wrote: > >> Just a comment on the latest version symlink issue ... >> >> Gentoo has a different solution, and it looks like it was taken from >> Mandrake. /usr/bin/automake (and aclocal) are actually a wrapper script >> that does a little poking in the project that you're working on. >> >> > > If PSARC place a recommendation or requirement on this case > to either remove the latest-version-symlink or to implement a > Gentoo/Mandrake-style best-version-finding script, then I'm fine > with that. My proposed method of a simple link to the latest > known version was intended as a convenience, but is not a core > part of the case. A couple of us have mentioned special casing autoconf and not including a convenience symlink. How do you, the project team, feel about that. > Slightly OT - if there were only 1 version installed, would a > non-version-suffixed symlink to the one and only installed version > be OK? (This is in relation to another case I'm working on.) I'd have no problem with it. Kinda like libc.so -> libc.so.1 (and by the ABI, we can never move to libc.so.2). - jek3 From jek3@sun.com Fri May 25 16:31:50 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4PNVnBS008159 for ; Fri, 25 May 2007 16:31:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4PNUHaK014842; Sat, 26 May 2007 07:30:27 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JIM0031TEMQGV00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Fri, 25 May 2007 16:30:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com ([129.146.17.59]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JIM00I1LEMPPT40@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Fri, 25 May 2007 16:30:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [129.150.12.53] (vpn-129-150-12-53.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.12.53]) by jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l4PNUK0F266467; Fri, 25 May 2007 16:30:24 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 13:30:10 -1000 From: Joseph Kowalski Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake (latest version symlink) In-reply-to: <20070525151956.GE11507@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> To: Danek Duvall Cc: Dermot.McCluskey@sun.com, John Fischer , psarc-ext@sun.com Message-id: <46577182.10500@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1179875174.57981.65.camel@sr1-umpk-57> <20070524182748.GO11507@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <4656BD19.1080704@Sun.COM> <20070525151956.GE11507@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060925) Status: RO Content-Length: 651 Danek Duvall wrote: > - Propose the script. Too early to say whether anyone will have any > objections to that. But figure *someone* will complain. ;-) > That looks like Danek threw down the gauntlet. I'll take that challenge! Seriously, I don't like the script proposal only from a business/resources point of view. For the minimal gain, I think Dermot has better things to do. I'm not sure the objection to the link is that strong. The debate seems to be how to implement the symlink, which seems to be marginally architecture. (And if you don't mind an "all or none" packaging as Jim suggested, even this becomes easy.) - jek3 From Dermot.McCluskey@sun.com Mon May 28 07:48:24 2007 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4SEmOWF011523 for ; Mon, 28 May 2007 07:48:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4SEl3J7008857 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-EXT@sun.com>; Mon, 28 May 2007 07:47:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JIR00E0NAEFXM00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Mon, 28 May 2007 07:47:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com ([129.156.42.6]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JIR00DGGAEDB700@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Mon, 28 May 2007 07:47:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d1-emea-09.sun.com ([192.18.2.119]) by gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l4SEl171002585 for ; Mon, 28 May 2007 14:47:01 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-emea-09.sun.com by d1-emea-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JIR00I01AD8MI00@d1-emea-09.sun.com> (original mail from Dermot.McCluskey@Sun.COM) for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Mon, 28 May 2007 15:47:01 +0100 (BST) Received: from [129.156.220.75] by d1-emea-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JIR00HV1AECWXEN@d1-emea-09.sun.com>; Mon, 28 May 2007 15:47:01 +0100 (BST) Date: Mon, 28 May 2007 15:47:00 +0100 From: Dermot.McCluskey@sun.com Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake (latest version symlink) In-reply-to: <46576E2E.1010005@sun.com> Sender: Dermot.McCluskey@sun.com To: Joseph Kowalski Cc: Danek Duvall , John Fischer , PSARC-EXT@sun.com Message-id: <465AEB64.2070100@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Boundary_(ID_7ls2+Kfazo0ej1FTZNItsw)" X-Accept-Language: en-us, en X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1179875174.57981.65.camel@sr1-umpk-57> <20070524182748.GO11507@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <4656BD19.1080704@Sun.COM> <46576E2E.1010005@sun.com> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; SunOS sun4u; en-US; rv:1.7) Gecko/20070109 Status: RO Content-Length: 4707 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_7ls2+Kfazo0ej1FTZNItsw) Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Joseph Kowalski wrote: > A couple of us have mentioned special casing autoconf and not > including a convenience symlink. How do you, the project team, > feel about that. (Did you mean automake -- not autoconf)? I am not too keen on the proposed approaches that involve post-install or runtime scripts to find the best of the installed versions, when no specific version is invoked. Therefore, I am *removing* the symlinks from this case. The revised FastTrack document is attached (just removed references to the symlinks). - Dermot --Boundary_(ID_7ls2+Kfazo0ej1FTZNItsw) Content-type: text/plain; name=automake_FASTTRACK.txt Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline; filename=automake_FASTTRACK.txt GNU Automake 1. Summary This fast-track introduces GNU Automake, versions 1.9.6 and 1.10, into the Solaris WOS. Patch release binding is requested. 2. Discussion Automake is a utility for generating Makefiles and is very commonly used when building open-source software. It is often used in conjunction with other "auto tools" such as autoconf, autoheader and libtool to make it easier to build applications on different platforms. The two versions proposed here are included with the CBE tools for JDS, which are available for download from opensolaris.org. Version 1.9 of Automake is still explicitly required to build some JDS components. Therefore this proposal will provide 1.9.6 and the latest stable version, 1.10, which will be the default. It is normal practise for Linux distros to include multiple versions of Automake. For example, both Red Hat Enterprise Linux 4 and Fedora Core 6 install five separate versions by default. As Automake installs most of its files in version-suffixed sub-directories (eg /usr/share/automake-1.10) and as there are no shared object libraries included, this approach is considered safe. Due to the mutliple versions required and allowing for the possibility that further additional versions may be required in future, Automake will be delivered in two packages whose names indicate the version (ie SUNWgnu-automake-19 and SUNWgnu-automake-110). Automake is delivered as: - Two command-line programs, automake and aclocal. These Perl scripts will be installed in /usr/bin with version suffixes (eg automake-1.9). - A number of private scripts to be installed in /usr/share/automake-$VERSION/ - A private set of Perl modules to be installed in /usr/share/automake-$VERSION/Automake/ - A private set of Automake macros to be installed in /usr/share/automake-$VERSION/am/ - A private set of M4 macros to be installed in /usr/share/aclocal-$VERSION/ - A user manual in Info format (only for latest version) - A text file listing directories to search for macros: /usr/share/aclocal/dirlist (Note: aclocal dir is different from aclocal-$VERSION.) - Some demo files In addition, other components may install M4 macros to be used by aclocal when building yet other components which depend on them. The locations /usr/share/aclocal/ and /usr/sfw/share/aclocal/ are currently used by Solaris packages for this purpose. For example, SUNWgnome-base-libs-devel installs /usr/share/aclocal/gtk-2.0.m4. These directories may be specified by command-line options to aclocal, or by listing them in the `dirlist' file. dirlist will be installed with the single value: /usr/sfw/share/aclocal (/usr/share/aclocal and /usr/share/aclocal-$VERSION do not need to be specified). This file may be edited to add additional default directories. An earlier version of Automake (1.8.3) is currently available in the Solaris Companion CD (CCD). This proposal removes Automake from the CCD and adds it to the SFW consolidation. This proposal will install the utilities in /usr, as per the guidelines of PSARC/2007/047, /usr/gnu [1]. 3. Interfaces Exported Interfaces =================== SUNWgnu-automake-110 Uncommitted Package name SUNWgnu-automake-19 Uncommitted Package name /usr/bin/automake-1.10 Uncommitted Command /usr/bin/aclocal-1.10 Uncommitted Command /usr/bin/automake-1.9 Uncommitted Command /usr/bin/aclocal-1.9 Uncommitted Command /usr/share/info/automake.info Uncommitted Info document /usr/share/aclocal/dirlist Uncommitted Macro search paths 4. References [1] S. Hahn, B. Smaalders, and R. Orth, PSARC/2007/047: /usr/gnu ATTACHED MATERIALS automake.info automake.info-1 automake.info-2 --Boundary_(ID_7ls2+Kfazo0ej1FTZNItsw)-- From John.Fischer@sun.com Wed May 30 10:19:38 2007 Received: from newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (newsunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.245]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l4UHJcDP006783 for ; Wed, 30 May 2007 10:19:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l4UHI28p036586 for <@newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com:PSARC-EXT@sun.com>; Wed, 30 May 2007 11:18:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JIV00I076QISN00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Wed, 30 May 2007 11:18:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sca-es-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.43.133]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JIV00A4X6QI1W90@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Wed, 30 May 2007 11:18:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from fe-sfbay-09.sun.com ([192.18.43.129]) by sca-es-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l4UHIIkw026631 for ; Wed, 30 May 2007 10:18:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.fe-sfbay-09.sun.com by fe-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0JIV00F016G5X100@fe-sfbay-09.sun.com> (original mail from John.Fischer@Sun.COM) for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Wed, 30 May 2007 10:18:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [129.150.12.240] by fe-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0JIV00CEP6QH23C0@fe-sfbay-09.sun.com>; Wed, 30 May 2007 10:18:18 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 10:12:20 -0700 From: John Fischer Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/293 - GNU Automake (latest version symlink) In-reply-to: <465AEB64.2070100@Sun.COM> Sender: John.Fischer@sun.com To: Dermot.McCluskey@sun.com Cc: Joseph Kowalski , Danek Duvall , PSARC-EXT@sun.com Message-id: <465DB074.1020506@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en-us, en X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <1179875174.57981.65.camel@sr1-umpk-57> <20070524182748.GO11507@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <4656BD19.1080704@Sun.COM> <46576E2E.1010005@sun.com> <465AEB64.2070100@Sun.COM> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; SunOS i86pc; en-US; rv:1.7) Gecko/20051027 Status: RO Content-Length: 4760 Dermot, This case was approved at the committee meeting today with a sigh. Thanks, John Dermot.McCluskey@Sun.COM wrote: > Joseph Kowalski wrote: > >> A couple of us have mentioned special casing autoconf and not >> including a convenience symlink. How do you, the project team, >> feel about that. > > > > (Did you mean automake -- not autoconf)? > > I am not too keen on the proposed approaches that involve > post-install or runtime scripts to find the best of the installed > versions, when no specific version is invoked. > > Therefore, I am *removing* the symlinks from this case. > The revised FastTrack document is attached (just removed > references to the symlinks). > > - Dermot > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > GNU Automake > > 1. Summary > > This fast-track introduces GNU Automake, versions 1.9.6 and 1.10, > into the Solaris WOS. > > Patch release binding is requested. > > 2. Discussion > > Automake is a utility for generating Makefiles and is very > commonly used when building open-source software. It is often > used in conjunction with other "auto tools" such as autoconf, > autoheader and libtool to make it easier to build applications > on different platforms. > > The two versions proposed here are included with the CBE tools > for JDS, which are available for download from opensolaris.org. > > Version 1.9 of Automake is still explicitly required to build some > JDS components. Therefore this proposal will provide 1.9.6 and > the latest stable version, 1.10, which will be the default. It > is normal practise for Linux distros to include multiple versions > of Automake. For example, both Red Hat Enterprise Linux 4 and > Fedora Core 6 install five separate versions by default. As > Automake installs most of its files in version-suffixed > sub-directories (eg /usr/share/automake-1.10) and as there are > no shared object libraries included, this approach is considered > safe. > > Due to the mutliple versions required and allowing for the > possibility that further additional versions may be required in > future, Automake will be delivered in two packages whose names > indicate the version (ie SUNWgnu-automake-19 and > SUNWgnu-automake-110). > > Automake is delivered as: > - Two command-line programs, automake and aclocal. > These Perl scripts will be installed in /usr/bin with version > suffixes (eg automake-1.9). > > - A number of private scripts to be installed in > /usr/share/automake-$VERSION/ > > - A private set of Perl modules to be installed in > /usr/share/automake-$VERSION/Automake/ > > - A private set of Automake macros to be installed in > /usr/share/automake-$VERSION/am/ > > - A private set of M4 macros to be installed in > /usr/share/aclocal-$VERSION/ > > - A user manual in Info format (only for latest version) > > - A text file listing directories to search for macros: > /usr/share/aclocal/dirlist > (Note: aclocal dir is different from aclocal-$VERSION.) > > - Some demo files > > In addition, other components may install M4 macros to be used by > aclocal when building yet other components which depend on them. > The locations /usr/share/aclocal/ and /usr/sfw/share/aclocal/ > are currently used by Solaris packages for this purpose. For > example, SUNWgnome-base-libs-devel installs > /usr/share/aclocal/gtk-2.0.m4. These directories may be specified > by command-line options to aclocal, or by listing them in the > `dirlist' file. dirlist will be installed with the single value: > /usr/sfw/share/aclocal > (/usr/share/aclocal and /usr/share/aclocal-$VERSION do not need > to be specified). This file may be edited to add additional > default directories. > > An earlier version of Automake (1.8.3) is currently available in > the Solaris Companion CD (CCD). This proposal removes Automake > from the CCD and adds it to the SFW consolidation. > > This proposal will install the utilities in /usr, as per the > guidelines of PSARC/2007/047, /usr/gnu [1]. > > 3. Interfaces > > Exported Interfaces > =================== > SUNWgnu-automake-110 Uncommitted Package name > SUNWgnu-automake-19 Uncommitted Package name > > /usr/bin/automake-1.10 Uncommitted Command > /usr/bin/aclocal-1.10 Uncommitted Command > /usr/bin/automake-1.9 Uncommitted Command > /usr/bin/aclocal-1.9 Uncommitted Command > > /usr/share/info/automake.info Uncommitted Info document > > /usr/share/aclocal/dirlist Uncommitted Macro search paths > > > 4. References > > [1] S. Hahn, B. Smaalders, and R. Orth, PSARC/2007/047: /usr/gnu > > > ATTACHED MATERIALS > > automake.info > automake.info-1 > automake.info-2