From sacadmin Wed Jun 27 14:47:33 2007 Received: from sac.sfbay.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l5RLlX7Z015337; Wed, 27 Jun 2007 14:47:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from carlsonj@localhost) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/Submit) id l5RLlXfF015329; Wed, 27 Jun 2007 14:47:33 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 14:47:33 -0700 (PDT) From: James Carlson Message-Id: <200706272147.l5RLlXfF015329@sac.sfbay.sun.com> To: PSARC-record@sac.sfbay.sun.com Subject: Netcat In Solaris [PSARC/2007/389 FastTrack timeout 07/11/2007] Status: RO Content-Length: 552 Template Version: @(#)sac_nextcase 1.63 06/14/07 SMI This information is Copyright 2007 Sun Microsystems 1. Introduction 1.1. Project/Component Working Name: Netcat In Solaris 1.2. Name of Document Author/Supplier: Author: Vladimir Kotal 1.3 Date of This Document: 27 June, 2007 4. Technical Description See the case directory for more detail 6. Resources and Schedule 6.4. Steering Committee requested information 6.4.1. Consolidation C-team Name: ON 6.5. ARC review type: FastTrack 6.6. ARC Exposure: open From carlsonj@phorcys.east.sun.com Wed Jun 27 14:51:26 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l5RLpPgY015437 for ; Wed, 27 Jun 2007 14:51:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l5RLnQ7N005225; Wed, 27 Jun 2007 22:49:41 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JKB0060ODYNXP00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 27 Jun 2007 14:49:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com ([129.148.174.143]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JKB005TDDYMJP10@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 27 Jun 2007 14:49:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l5RLnY8k007071; Wed, 27 Jun 2007 17:49:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from carlsonj@localhost) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1/Submit) id l5RLnYOX007068; Wed, 27 Jun 2007 17:49:34 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 17:49:34 -0400 From: James Carlson Subject: 2007/389 Netcat In Solaris To: psarc-ext@sun.com Cc: vladimir.kotal@sun.com Message-id: <18050.56174.10487.287158@gargle.gargle.HOWL> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: VM 7.01 under Emacs 21.3.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 Status: RO Content-Length: 2466 I'm sponsoring this fast-track request for Vladimir Kotal. The timer is set to 07/11/2007 due to the holiday, and a draft man page is included in the case directory. Release binding is Patch/Micro. 4. Technical Description Background ---------- Since its birth in 1996 Netcat utility has been widely used for network debugging, testing and scripting. Because of its versatility, it is often called "TCP/IP Swiss Army knife". During the course of time multiple implementations of Netcat became available. Because of the high demand for the utility it was included in base of systems such as various Linux distributions, FreeBSD and OpenBSD. Now it's time for Solaris to join the club too. Proposal -------- This case proposes to integrate the Netcat utility into Solaris. The implementation which was chosen for inclusion is OpenBSD's Netcat which is clean reimplementation of the original 'nc110' utility which was further extended. This implementation is covered by the BSD license. For inclusion into Solaris, source code of OpenBSD's Netcat was cleaned and adapted to better match interfaces and functional capabilities in Solaris. This case depends on "Make err/warn part of Solaris's libc" (PSARC 2006/662). There are plans to integrate Netcat more tightly with Solaris, namely to add IPsec, SSL and SCTP support. This is however out of scope of this case. Interfaces ---------- This case delivers the following interfaces: Exported Interfaces: +-----------------------------+-----------------+---------------------+ |Interfaces: | Classification: | Comments: | +-----------------------------+-----------------+---------------------+ SUNWnetcat Committed package name /usr/bin/nc Committed executable location /usr/bin/nc [host] [port[s]] Committed connect usage (1) /usr/bin/nc -4 Committed IPv4 flag /usr/bin/nc -6 Committed IPv6 flag /usr/bin/nc -l Committed listen flag /usr/bin/nc -n Committed non-resolve flag /usr/bin/nc -p Committed local/listen port option /usr/bin/nc -u Committed UDP flag /usr/bin/nc -w Committed timeout option Stability level for all other command line options is Uncommitted. Note (1): The port list syntax is Uncommitted. Man page -------- Man page in the case directory for Netcat is taken from OpenBSD. Some sections were modified to align with the source code changes. The 'INETD CAPABILITIES' section was added to reflect Solaris' specifics. From roland.mainz@nrubsig.org Wed Jun 27 15:02:09 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l5RM28am016033 for ; Wed, 27 Jun 2007 15:02:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l5RM0Lwg007750; Wed, 27 Jun 2007 23:00:23 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JKB0053NEGLBT00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 27 Jun 2007 15:00:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com ([192.18.98.36]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JKB00MJ9EGCRZ50@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 27 Jun 2007 15:00:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay21.sun.com (relay21.sun.com [192.12.251.14] (may be forged)) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l5RM0BOr020114; Wed, 27 Jun 2007 22:00:12 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mms22es.sun.com ([150.143.232.34] [150.143.232.34]) by relay21.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-63879; Wed, 27 Jun 2007 22:00:11 +0000 (Z) Received: from mms25bas.mms.us.syntegra.com (mms25bas.mms.us.syntegra.com [192.12.251.90]) by mms22es.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-682682; Wed, 27 Jun 2007 22:00:11 +0000 (Z) Received: from mail-in-03.arcor-online.net ([151.189.21.43] [151.189.21.43]) by relay21.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-666874; Wed, 27 Jun 2007 22:00:11 +0000 (Z) Received: from mail-in-04-z2.arcor-online.net (mail-in-04-z2.arcor-online.net [151.189.8.16]) by mail-in-03.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3282643E4A; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 00:00:10 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mail-in-06.arcor-online.net (mail-in-06.arcor-online.net [151.189.21.46]) by mail-in-04-z2.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27FE7ABAEC; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 00:00:10 +0200 (CEST) Received: from jupiterb48.nrubsig.org (dslb-084-059-018-027.pools.arcor-ip.net [84.59.18.27]) by mail-in-06.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A987035E5AA; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 00:00:09 +0200 (CEST) Received: from nrubsig.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by jupiterb48.nrubsig.org (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l5RM07Ml007874; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 00:00:08 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 00:00:07 +0200 From: Roland Mainz Subject: Re: 2007/389 Netcat In Solaris Sender: gisburn@jupiterb48.nrubsig.org To: James Carlson Cc: psarc-ext@Sun.COM, vladimir.kotal@Sun.COM Message-id: <4682DDE7.55CD604A@nrubsig.org> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.11 sun4u) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.90.3/3542/Wed Jun 27 18:55:00 2007 on mail-in-06.arcor-online.net X-Virus-Status: Clean References: <18050.56174.10487.287158@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Status: RO Content-Length: 1071 James Carlson wrote: [snip] > Interfaces > ---------- > > This case delivers the following interfaces: > > Exported Interfaces: > +-----------------------------+-----------------+---------------------+ > |Interfaces: | Classification: | Comments: | > +-----------------------------+-----------------+---------------------+ > SUNWnetcat Committed package name > /usr/bin/nc Committed executable location Erm, there are two issues: 1. "nc" is already occupied by the frontend for the "nedit" editor and using this name may render nedit defunct 2. IMO the name /usr/bin/netcat would be more descriptive, avoid namespace collisions (see [1]) and would avoid that the two-letter namespace in /usr/bin/ gets even more spammed by specialist tools (e.g. tools which are usally not needed by "normal" end-users) ---- Bye, Roland -- __ . . __ (o.\ \/ /.o) roland.mainz@nrubsig.org \__\/\/__/ MPEG specialist, C&&JAVA&&Sun&&Unix programmer /O /==\ O\ TEL +49 641 7950090 (;O/ \/ \O;) From Nicolas.Williams@sun.com Wed Jun 27 15:05:02 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l5RM51vF016073 for ; Wed, 27 Jun 2007 15:05:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l5RM3Gqt008845; Wed, 27 Jun 2007 23:03:17 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JKB00505ELFQG00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 27 Jun 2007 15:03:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM ([129.153.128.104]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JKB00M57ELFRW60@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 27 Jun 2007 15:03:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.Central.Sun.COM (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l5RM2Ds5001742; Wed, 27 Jun 2007 17:02:13 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from nw141292@localhost) by localhost.Central.Sun.COM (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1/Submit) id l5RM2DSf001741; Wed, 27 Jun 2007 17:02:13 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 17:02:13 -0500 From: Nicolas Williams Subject: Re: 2007/389 Netcat In Solaris In-reply-to: <4682DDE7.55CD604A@nrubsig.org> To: Roland Mainz Cc: James Carlson , Vladimir.Kotal@sun.com, psarc-ext@sun.com Message-id: <20070627220212.GL1496@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <18050.56174.10487.287158@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4682DDE7.55CD604A@nrubsig.org> X-Authentication-warning: localhost.Central.Sun.COM: nw141292 set sender to Nicolas.Williams@sun.com using -f User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.7i Status: RO Content-Length: 406 On Thu, Jun 28, 2007 at 12:00:07AM +0200, Roland Mainz wrote: > 2. IMO the name /usr/bin/netcat would be more descriptive, avoid > namespace collisions (see [1]) and would avoid that the two-letter > namespace in /usr/bin/ gets even more spammed by specialist tools (e.g. > tools which are usally not needed by "normal" end-users) The less sparse the namespace the higher the likelihood of painful typos. From Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de Wed Jun 27 15:08:46 2007 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l5RM8krZ016109 for ; Wed, 27 Jun 2007 15:08:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l5RM6xE3024528; Wed, 27 Jun 2007 15:07:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JKB00A01EROH200@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 27 Jun 2007 16:07:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sca-ea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.43.24]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JKB00I7UERNADA0@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 27 Jun 2007 16:06:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay21.sun.com (relay21.sun.com [192.12.251.14] (may be forged)) by sca-ea-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l5RM6wou003330; Wed, 27 Jun 2007 22:06:59 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mms25es.sun.com ([150.143.232.94] [150.143.232.94]) by relay21.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-64708; Wed, 27 Jun 2007 22:06:58 +0000 (Z) Received: from mms25bas.mms.us.syntegra.com (mms25bas.mms.us.syntegra.com [192.12.251.90]) by mms25es.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-673333; Wed, 27 Jun 2007 22:06:58 +0000 (Z) Received: from mailgw11.fraunhofer.de ([153.96.1.23] [153.96.1.23]) by relay21.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-676344; Wed, 27 Jun 2007 22:06:57 +0000 (Z) Received: from mailgw11.fraunhofer.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailgw11.fraunhofer.de (8.13.5+/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l5RM6roE027660; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 00:06:54 +0200 (MEST) Received: from pluto.fokus.fraunhofer.de (pluto.fokus.fraunhofer.de [195.37.77.164]) by mailgw11.fraunhofer.de (8.13.5+/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l5RM6rk0027651 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 28 Jun 2007 00:06:53 +0200 (MEST) Received: from EXCHSRV.fokus.fraunhofer.de (bohr [10.147.9.231]) by pluto.fokus.fraunhofer.de (8.13.7/8.13.7) with SMTP id l5RM6rQK022058; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 00:06:53 +0200 (MEST) Received: from burner ([10.147.65.166]) by EXCHSRV.fokus.fraunhofer.de with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Thu, 28 Jun 2007 00:06:53 +0200 Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 00:04:54 +0200 From: Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (Joerg Schilling) Subject: Re: 2007/389 Netcat In Solaris In-reply-to: <4682DDE7.55CD604A@nrubsig.org> To: roland.mainz@nrubsig.org, james.d.carlson@sun.com Cc: vladimir.kotal@sun.com, psarc-ext@sun.com Message-id: <4682df06.U9sRYkgkGz9gnU/+%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 X-Fraunhofer-Email-Policy: accepted References: <18050.56174.10487.287158@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4682DDE7.55CD604A@nrubsig.org> User-Agent: nail 11.22 3/20/05 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Jun 2007 22:06:53.0561 (UTC) FILETIME=[782F1690:01C7B907] Status: RO Content-Length: 1181 Roland Mainz wrote: > > +-----------------------------+-----------------+---------------------+ > > |Interfaces: | Classification: | Comments: | > > +-----------------------------+-----------------+---------------------+ > > SUNWnetcat Committed package name > > /usr/bin/nc Committed executable location > > Erm, there are two issues: > 1. "nc" is already occupied by the frontend for the "nedit" editor and > using this name may render nedit defunct > 2. IMO the name /usr/bin/netcat would be more descriptive, avoid > namespace collisions (see [1]) and would avoid that the two-letter > namespace in /usr/bin/ gets even more spammed by specialist tools (e.g. > tools which are usally not needed by "normal" end-users) +1 Also there is "mc", and nc/mc are typo victims. Jörg -- EMail:joerg@schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin js@cs.tu-berlin.de (uni) schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily From roland.mainz@nrubsig.org Wed Jun 27 15:16:30 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l5RMGTTb016224 for ; Wed, 27 Jun 2007 15:16:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l5RMEdlZ001708; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 06:14:40 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JKB00601F4FSU00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 27 Jun 2007 15:14:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com ([192.18.98.34]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JKB00MJHF4ERV70@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 27 Jun 2007 15:14:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay43i.sun.com ([192.5.209.74]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l5RM98e4018899; Wed, 27 Jun 2007 22:14:38 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mms49es.sun.com ([160.41.221.233] [160.41.221.233]) by relay43i.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-64834; Wed, 27 Jun 2007 22:14:38 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay41i.sun.com ([192.5.209.70] [192.5.209.70]) by mms49es.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-603535; Wed, 27 Jun 2007 22:14:37 +0000 (Z) Received: from mail-in-01.arcor-online.net ([151.189.21.41] [151.189.21.41]) by relay4i.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-288817; Wed, 27 Jun 2007 22:14:37 +0000 (Z) Received: from mail-in-01-z2.arcor-online.net (mail-in-06-z2.arcor-online.net [151.189.8.18]) by mail-in-01.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85C2D15B9F6; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 00:14:36 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mail-in-05.arcor-online.net (mail-in-05.arcor-online.net [151.189.21.45]) by mail-in-01-z2.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 772EA5BE96; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 00:14:36 +0200 (CEST) Received: from jupiterb48.nrubsig.org (dslb-084-059-018-027.pools.arcor-ip.net [84.59.18.27]) by mail-in-05.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 470DF1DB602; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 00:14:36 +0200 (CEST) Received: from nrubsig.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by jupiterb48.nrubsig.org (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l5RMEZ7T007886; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 00:14:35 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 00:14:35 +0200 From: Roland Mainz Subject: Re: 2007/389 Netcat In Solaris Sender: gisburn@jupiterb48.nrubsig.org To: Nicolas Williams Cc: James Carlson , Vladimir.Kotal@sun.com, psarc-ext@sun.com Message-id: <4682E14B.8C474C8F@nrubsig.org> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.11 sun4u) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.90.3/3542/Wed Jun 27 18:55:00 2007 on mail-in-05.arcor-online.net X-Virus-Status: Clean References: <18050.56174.10487.287158@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4682DDE7.55CD604A@nrubsig.org> <20070627220212.GL1496@Sun.COM> Status: RO Content-Length: 1448 Nicolas Williams wrote: > On Thu, Jun 28, 2007 at 12:00:07AM +0200, Roland Mainz wrote: > > 2. IMO the name /usr/bin/netcat would be more descriptive, avoid > > namespace collisions (see [1]) and would avoid that the two-letter > > namespace in /usr/bin/ gets even more spammed by specialist tools (e.g. > > tools which are usally not needed by "normal" end-users) > > The less sparse the namespace the higher the likelihood of painful > typos. Erm... 1. ... we're not in the 60' anymore where every byte on the harddisk counts. 2. I would strongly prefer descriptive application names with at least four or more letters (unless the tools have a precedent to use the specific name since a decade or longer and/or is going to superset an existing tool with a shorter name) 3. IMO it is not very user friendly to create lots of tools with two letters in it's name where one single typo results in starting potentially dangerous tools 4. SuSE Linux 10.0 installs "netcat" as /usr/bin/netcat 5. Replace the "n" in "nc" with "m" and you call the "mc" (midnight commander) ... or replace it with the "b" letter and you get the "arbitrary precision arithmetic language" thing (/usr/bin/bc). In any case the use of /usr/bin/nc for a new tool is IMO not a good idea ---- Bye, Roland -- __ . . __ (o.\ \/ /.o) roland.mainz@nrubsig.org \__\/\/__/ MPEG specialist, C&&JAVA&&Sun&&Unix programmer /O /==\ O\ TEL +49 641 7950090 (;O/ \/ \O;) From Nicolas.Williams@sun.com Wed Jun 27 15:19:46 2007 Received: from newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (newsunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.245]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l5RMJkGD016256 for ; Wed, 27 Jun 2007 15:19:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l5RMHKlJ035217; Wed, 27 Jun 2007 16:17:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JKB00801F9XBV00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 27 Jun 2007 15:17:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM ([129.153.128.104]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JKB005EMF9XJP30@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 27 Jun 2007 15:17:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.Central.Sun.COM (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l5RMGqkV001758; Wed, 27 Jun 2007 17:16:52 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from nw141292@localhost) by localhost.Central.Sun.COM (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1/Submit) id l5RMGqLx001757; Wed, 27 Jun 2007 17:16:52 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 17:16:52 -0500 From: Nicolas Williams Subject: Re: 2007/389 Netcat In Solaris In-reply-to: <4682E14B.8C474C8F@nrubsig.org> To: Roland Mainz Cc: James Carlson , Vladimir.Kotal@sun.com, psarc-ext@sun.com Message-id: <20070627221651.GM1496@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <18050.56174.10487.287158@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4682DDE7.55CD604A@nrubsig.org> <20070627220212.GL1496@Sun.COM> <4682E14B.8C474C8F@nrubsig.org> X-Authentication-warning: localhost.Central.Sun.COM: nw141292 set sender to Nicolas.Williams@sun.com using -f User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.7i Status: RO Content-Length: 332 On Thu, Jun 28, 2007 at 12:14:35AM +0200, Roland Mainz wrote: > > The less sparse the namespace the higher the likelihood of painful > > typos. > > Erm... > 1. ... we're not in the 60' anymore where every byte on the harddisk > counts. > > [...] I can't tell if you thought I meant the opposite of what I wrote. To clarify: +1. From Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de Wed Jun 27 15:26:50 2007 Received: from newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (newsunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.245]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l5RMQoue016375 for ; Wed, 27 Jun 2007 15:26:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l5RMONqx036242; Wed, 27 Jun 2007 16:24:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JKB0080PFLTN800@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 27 Jun 2007 15:25:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sca-ea-mail-3.sun.com ([192.18.43.21]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JKB005W7FLSJR20@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 27 Jun 2007 15:25:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay43i.sun.com ([192.5.209.74]) by sca-ea-mail-3.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l5RMJ4x4007688; Wed, 27 Jun 2007 22:25:04 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mms49es.sun.com ([160.41.221.233] [160.41.221.233]) by relay43i.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-65751; Wed, 27 Jun 2007 22:25:04 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay44i.sun.com ([192.5.209.118] [192.5.209.118]) by mms49es.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-612545; Wed, 27 Jun 2007 22:25:04 +0000 (Z) Received: from mailgw10.fraunhofer.de ([153.96.1.22] [153.96.1.22]) by relay4i.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-294364; Wed, 27 Jun 2007 22:25:03 +0000 (Z) Received: from mailgw10.fraunhofer.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailgw10.fraunhofer.de (8.13.5+/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l5RMP0AE026325; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 00:25:00 +0200 (CEST) Received: from pluto.fokus.fraunhofer.de (pluto.fokus.fraunhofer.de [195.37.77.164]) by mailgw10.fraunhofer.de (8.13.5+/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l5RMOxcH026313 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 28 Jun 2007 00:25:00 +0200 (CEST) Received: from EXCHSRV.fokus.fraunhofer.de (bohr [10.147.9.231]) by pluto.fokus.fraunhofer.de (8.13.7/8.13.7) with SMTP id l5RMOx1Z022650; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 00:24:59 +0200 (MEST) Received: from burner ([10.147.65.166]) by EXCHSRV.fokus.fraunhofer.de with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Thu, 28 Jun 2007 00:24:59 +0200 Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 00:23:01 +0200 From: Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (Joerg Schilling) Subject: Re: 2007/389 Netcat In Solaris In-reply-to: <4682E14B.8C474C8F@nrubsig.org> To: roland.mainz@nrubsig.org, Nicolas.Williams@sun.com Cc: Vladimir.Kotal@sun.com, psarc-ext@sun.com, James.D.Carlson@sun.com Message-id: <4682e345.MO8bQ1J38oUpq1e2%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 X-Fraunhofer-Email-Policy: accepted References: <18050.56174.10487.287158@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4682DDE7.55CD604A@nrubsig.org> <20070627220212.GL1496@Sun.COM> <4682E14B.8C474C8F@nrubsig.org> User-Agent: nail 11.22 3/20/05 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Jun 2007 22:24:59.0808 (UTC) FILETIME=[FFA33A00:01C7B909] Status: RO Content-Length: 1119 Roland Mainz wrote: > Nicolas Williams wrote: > > On Thu, Jun 28, 2007 at 12:00:07AM +0200, Roland Mainz wrote: > > > 2. IMO the name /usr/bin/netcat would be more descriptive, avoid > > > namespace collisions (see [1]) and would avoid that the two-letter > > > namespace in /usr/bin/ gets even more spammed by specialist tools (e.g. > > > tools which are usally not needed by "normal" end-users) > > > > The less sparse the namespace the higher the likelihood of painful > > typos. > > Erm... > 1. ... we're not in the 60' anymore where every byte on the harddisk > counts. Short command names did not exist on UNIX before the mid 1970 when Modems became popular.... it is a pain to type the "old" "chdir" on a 110 Baud line, so "cd" has been introduced, old shells still support "chdir". Jörg -- EMail:joerg@schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin js@cs.tu-berlin.de (uni) schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily From roland.mainz@nrubsig.org Wed Jun 27 15:36:39 2007 Received: from newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (newsunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.245]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l5RMadrJ016810 for ; Wed, 27 Jun 2007 15:36:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l5RMYFUF037813; Wed, 27 Jun 2007 16:34:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JKB00805G24SO00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 27 Jun 2007 15:34:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sca-ea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.43.24]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JKB00MZGG24RW80@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 27 Jun 2007 15:34:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay41i.sun.com ([192.5.209.70]) by sca-ea-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l5RMRWHu008916; Wed, 27 Jun 2007 22:34:52 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mms48es.sun.com ([160.41.221.231] [160.41.221.231]) by relay41i.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-67318; Wed, 27 Jun 2007 22:34:51 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay41i.sun.com ([192.5.209.70] [192.5.209.70]) by mms48es.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-624806; Wed, 27 Jun 2007 22:34:51 +0000 (Z) Received: from mail-in-03.arcor-online.net ([151.189.21.43] [151.189.21.43]) by relay4i.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-298541; Wed, 27 Jun 2007 22:34:51 +0000 (Z) Received: from mail-in-02-z2.arcor-online.net (mail-in-02-z2.arcor-online.net [151.189.8.14]) by mail-in-03.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C29AE2CAD5C; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 00:34:50 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mail-in-02.arcor-online.net (mail-in-02.arcor-online.net [151.189.21.42]) by mail-in-02-z2.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92571114491; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 00:34:50 +0200 (CEST) Received: from jupiterb48.nrubsig.org (dslb-084-059-018-027.pools.arcor-ip.net [84.59.18.27]) by mail-in-02.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 724A82D9FBF; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 00:34:50 +0200 (CEST) Received: from nrubsig.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by jupiterb48.nrubsig.org (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l5RMYn2D007901; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 00:34:49 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 00:34:49 +0200 From: Roland Mainz Subject: Naming policy for new commands ? / was: Re: 2007/389 Netcat In Solaris Sender: gisburn@jupiterb48.nrubsig.org To: Nicolas Williams Cc: James Carlson , Vladimir.Kotal@sun.com, psarc-ext@sun.com Message-id: <4682E609.B1183D9B@nrubsig.org> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.11 sun4u) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.90.3/3542/Wed Jun 27 18:55:00 2007 on mail-in-02.arcor-online.net X-Virus-Status: Clean References: <18050.56174.10487.287158@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4682DDE7.55CD604A@nrubsig.org> <20070627220212.GL1496@Sun.COM> <4682E14B.8C474C8F@nrubsig.org> <20070627221651.GM1496@Sun.COM> Status: RO Content-Length: 981 Nicolas Williams wrote: > On Thu, Jun 28, 2007 at 12:14:35AM +0200, Roland Mainz wrote: > > > The less sparse the namespace the higher the likelihood of painful > > > typos. > > > > Erm... > > 1. ... we're not in the 60' anymore where every byte on the harddisk > > counts. > > > > [...] > > I can't tell if you thought I meant the opposite of what I wrote. To > clarify: +1. Sorry.. I didn't realise that... ;-( ... I wish there would be an ARC policy which says "... use command names longer than four characters for new commands unless the command has a precedent to use the specific "short" name since a decade or longer and/or is going to replace or superset an existing tool with a shorter name (or "derail" and write an opinion why a one/two/three-letter name is a good idea...) ...". ---- Bye, Roland -- __ . . __ (o.\ \/ /.o) roland.mainz@nrubsig.org \__\/\/__/ MPEG specialist, C&&JAVA&&Sun&&Unix programmer /O /==\ O\ TEL +49 641 7950090 (;O/ \/ \O;) From carlsonj@phorcys.east.sun.com Wed Jun 27 15:36:53 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l5RMaq2C016822 for ; Wed, 27 Jun 2007 15:36:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l5RMZ3qF007506; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 06:35:05 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JKB00C03G2GIU00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 27 Jun 2007 16:35:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com ([129.148.174.143]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JKB00IYUG2FAFD0@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 27 Jun 2007 16:35:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l5RMRXEp007344; Wed, 27 Jun 2007 18:27:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from carlsonj@localhost) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1/Submit) id l5RMRXZC007341; Wed, 27 Jun 2007 18:27:33 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 18:27:33 -0400 From: James Carlson Subject: Re: 2007/389 Netcat In Solaris In-reply-to: <4682E14B.8C474C8F@nrubsig.org> To: Roland Mainz Cc: Nicolas Williams , Vladimir.Kotal@sun.com, psarc-ext@sun.com Message-id: <18050.58453.154259.824654@gargle.gargle.HOWL> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: VM 7.01 under Emacs 21.3.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <18050.56174.10487.287158@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4682DDE7.55CD604A@nrubsig.org> <20070627220212.GL1496@Sun.COM> <4682E14B.8C474C8F@nrubsig.org> Status: RO Content-Length: 624 Roland Mainz writes: > 4. SuSE Linux 10.0 installs "netcat" as /usr/bin/netcat The rest of the issues I think are red herrings, but that one I agree with. Vladimir, can you investigate how this is installed on other platforms? I took it that 'nc' was the standard, but if that's not so, and if there are allowable variants here that won't confuse anyone, then let's pick something less ambiguous. -- James Carlson, Solaris Networking Sun Microsystems / 1 Network Drive 71.232W Vox +1 781 442 2084 MS UBUR02-212 / Burlington MA 01803-2757 42.496N Fax +1 781 442 1677 From alan.coopersmith@sun.com Wed Jun 27 15:46:11 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l5RMkAmq017086 for ; Wed, 27 Jun 2007 15:46:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l5RMiOnK018309 for <@sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com:psarc-ext@sun.com>; Wed, 27 Jun 2007 23:44:27 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JKB00901GI2J800@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 27 Jun 2007 15:44:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sfbaymail1sca.SFBay.Sun.COM ([129.145.154.35]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JKB005LBGI2JI30@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 27 Jun 2007 15:44:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [129.146.108.211] (almas.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.108.211]) by sfbaymail1sca.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l5RMiNpH005315; Wed, 27 Jun 2007 15:44:24 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 15:44:23 -0700 From: Alan Coopersmith Subject: Re: Naming policy for new commands ? / was: Re: 2007/389 Netcat In Solaris In-reply-to: <4682E609.B1183D9B@nrubsig.org> To: Roland Mainz Cc: Nicolas Williams , James Carlson , Vladimir.Kotal@sun.com, psarc-ext@sun.com Message-id: <4682E847.4080607@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <18050.56174.10487.287158@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4682DDE7.55CD604A@nrubsig.org> <20070627220212.GL1496@Sun.COM> <4682E14B.8C474C8F@nrubsig.org> <20070627221651.GM1496@Sun.COM> <4682E609.B1183D9B@nrubsig.org> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.0 (X11/20070423) Status: RO Content-Length: 884 Roland Mainz wrote: > ... I wish there would be an ARC policy which says "... use command > names longer than four characters for new commands unless the command > has a precedent to use the specific "short" name since a decade or > longer and/or is going to replace or superset an existing tool with a > shorter name (or "derail" and write an opinion why a > one/two/three-letter name is a good idea...) ...". That would be an update to the current ARC policy which says "Utility names should be between two and nine characters, inclusive." (which you can find linked from the Command Line Syntax Best Practices ) -- -Alan Coopersmith- alan.coopersmith@sun.com Sun Microsystems, Inc. - X Window System Engineering From roland.mainz@nrubsig.org Wed Jun 27 15:53:28 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l5RMrRtI017312 for ; Wed, 27 Jun 2007 15:53:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l5RMpXXo011893; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 06:51:37 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JKB00901GTYWZ00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 27 Jun 2007 15:51:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.98.31]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JKB0053IGTYJR40@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 27 Jun 2007 15:51:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay22.sun.com (relay22.sun.com [192.12.251.34] (may be forged)) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l5RMpXFM019126; Wed, 27 Jun 2007 22:51:34 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mms23es.sun.com ([150.143.232.54] [150.143.232.54]) by relay22.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-71994; Wed, 27 Jun 2007 22:51:33 +0000 (Z) Received: from mms23bas.mms.us.syntegra.com (mms23bas.mms.us.syntegra.com [192.12.251.50]) by mms23es.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-735409; Wed, 27 Jun 2007 22:51:33 +0000 (Z) Received: from mail-in-01.arcor-online.net ([151.189.21.41] [151.189.21.41]) by relay23.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-542295; Wed, 27 Jun 2007 22:51:33 +0000 (Z) Received: from mail-in-03-z2.arcor-online.net (mail-in-03-z2.arcor-online.net [151.189.8.15]) by mail-in-01.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53EE915B6C6; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 00:51:32 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mail-in-11.arcor-online.net (mail-in-11.arcor-online.net [151.189.21.51]) by mail-in-03-z2.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 229382D378F; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 00:51:32 +0200 (CEST) Received: from jupiterb48.nrubsig.org (dslb-084-059-018-027.pools.arcor-ip.net [84.59.18.27]) by mail-in-11.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id EAF1911A0E; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 00:51:31 +0200 (CEST) Received: from nrubsig.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by jupiterb48.nrubsig.org (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l5RMpUQE007913; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 00:51:30 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 00:51:30 +0200 From: Roland Mainz Subject: Re: 2007/389 Netcat In Solaris Sender: gisburn@jupiterb48.nrubsig.org To: James Carlson Cc: Nicolas Williams , Vladimir.Kotal@sun.com, psarc-ext@sun.com Message-id: <4682E9F2.EA43B72C@nrubsig.org> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.11 sun4u) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.90.3/3542/Wed Jun 27 18:55:00 2007 on mail-in-11.arcor-online.net X-Virus-Status: Clean References: <18050.56174.10487.287158@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4682DDE7.55CD604A@nrubsig.org> <20070627220212.GL1496@Sun.COM> <4682E14B.8C474C8F@nrubsig.org> <18050.58453.154259.824654@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Status: RO Content-Length: 1392 James Carlson wrote: > Roland Mainz writes: > > 4. SuSE Linux 10.0 installs "netcat" as /usr/bin/netcat > > The rest of the issues I think are red herrings, but that one I agree > with. Erm... I would not be happy if the introduction of "netcat" as "nc" ruins nedit... ... and IMO it is better to use "long" names. > Vladimir, can you investigate how this is installed on other > platforms? I took it that 'nc' was the standard, but if that's not > so, and if there are allowable variants here that won't confuse > anyone, then let's pick something less ambiguous. - RedHat/Fedora seems to use /usr/bin/netcat (see http://rpmseek.com/rpm/netcat-3.6-alt2.x86_64.html?hl=com&cs=netcat:PN:0:0:0:0:2223268) - SuSE Linux10.0 and 10.1 and 10.2 use /usr/bin/netcat (see http://rpmseek.com/rpm/netcat-1.10-902.i586.html?hl=com&cs=netcat:PN:0:0:0:0:3459969) - The Linux RPM from netcat.sourceforge.net uses both /usr/bin/netcat and /usr/bin/nc (see http://rpmseek.com/rpm/netcat-0.7.1-1.i386.html?hl=com&cs=netcat:PN:0:0:0:0:1599896) - Debian seems to use both /usr/bin/netcat and /usr/bin/nc per http://packages.debian.org/cgi-bin/search_contents.pl?searchmode=filelist&word=netcat&version=unstable&arch=sparc ---- bye, Roland -- __ . . __ (o.\ \/ /.o) roland.mainz@nrubsig.org \__\/\/__/ MPEG specialist, C&&JAVA&&Sun&&Unix programmer /O /==\ O\ TEL +49 641 7950090 (;O/ \/ \O;) From Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de Wed Jun 27 15:53:52 2007 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l5RMrqxh017348 for ; Wed, 27 Jun 2007 15:53:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l5RMq4tL001888; Wed, 27 Jun 2007 15:52:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JKB00D0ZGUTV500@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 27 Jun 2007 16:52:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.98.31]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JKB00IQRGUSADC0@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 27 Jun 2007 16:52:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay22.sun.com (relay22.sun.com [192.12.251.34] (may be forged)) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l5RMq46w019260; Wed, 27 Jun 2007 22:52:04 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mms24es.sun.com ([150.143.232.74] [150.143.232.74]) by relay22.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-72025; Wed, 27 Jun 2007 22:52:02 +0000 (Z) Received: from mms25bas.mms.us.syntegra.com (mms25bas.mms.us.syntegra.com [192.12.251.90]) by mms24es.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-731826; Wed, 27 Jun 2007 22:52:02 +0000 (Z) Received: from mailgw10.fraunhofer.de ([153.96.1.22] [153.96.1.22]) by relay21.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-736262; Wed, 27 Jun 2007 22:52:01 +0000 (Z) Received: from mailgw10.fraunhofer.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailgw10.fraunhofer.de (8.13.5+/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l5RMpvS7017393; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 00:51:57 +0200 (CEST) Received: from pluto.fokus.fraunhofer.de (pluto.fokus.fraunhofer.de [195.37.77.164]) by mailgw10.fraunhofer.de (8.13.5+/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l5RMpubu017380 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 28 Jun 2007 00:51:57 +0200 (CEST) Received: from EXCHSRV.fokus.fraunhofer.de (bohr [10.147.9.231]) by pluto.fokus.fraunhofer.de (8.13.7/8.13.7) with SMTP id l5RMpuir023748; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 00:51:56 +0200 (MEST) Received: from burner ([10.147.65.166]) by EXCHSRV.fokus.fraunhofer.de with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Thu, 28 Jun 2007 00:51:56 +0200 Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 00:49:58 +0200 From: Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (Joerg Schilling) Subject: Re: Naming policy for new commands ? / was: Re: 2007/389 Netcat In Solaris In-reply-to: <4682E847.4080607@sun.com> To: roland.mainz@nrubsig.org, alan.coopersmith@sun.com Cc: Vladimir.Kotal@sun.com, psarc-ext@sun.com Message-id: <4682e996.yYAa+ZJ46uvc3qKt%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 X-Fraunhofer-Email-Policy: accepted References: <18050.56174.10487.287158@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4682DDE7.55CD604A@nrubsig.org> <20070627220212.GL1496@Sun.COM> <4682E14B.8C474C8F@nrubsig.org> <20070627221651.GM1496@Sun.COM> <4682E609.B1183D9B@nrubsig.org> <4682E847.4080607@sun.com> User-Agent: nail 11.22 3/20/05 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Jun 2007 22:51:56.0927 (UTC) FILETIME=[C38400F0:01C7B90D] Status: RO Content-Length: 1032 Alan Coopersmith wrote: > Roland Mainz wrote: > > ... I wish there would be an ARC policy which says "... use command > > names longer than four characters for new commands unless the command > > has a precedent to use the specific "short" name since a decade or > > longer and/or is going to replace or superset an existing tool with a > > shorter name (or "derail" and write an opinion why a > > one/two/three-letter name is a good idea...) ...". > > That would be an update to the current ARC policy which says > "Utility names should be between two and nine characters, inclusive." I believe that shorter names should be reserved for programs that use the short name already for a very long time. Jörg -- EMail:joerg@schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin js@cs.tu-berlin.de (uni) schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily From jek3@sun.com Wed Jun 27 16:45:14 2007 Received: from newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (newsunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.245]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l5RNjERV019246 for ; Wed, 27 Jun 2007 16:45:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l5RNgmDc047496; Wed, 27 Jun 2007 17:42:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JKB00C01J8FKP00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 27 Jun 2007 16:43:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com ([129.146.17.59]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JKB00513J8FJI60@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 27 Jun 2007 16:43:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [129.150.12.53] (vpn-129-150-12-53.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.12.53]) by jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l5RNhQ3H947943; Wed, 27 Jun 2007 16:43:26 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 13:42:12 -1000 From: Joseph Kowalski Subject: Re: Naming policy for new commands ? / was: Re: 2007/389 Netcat In Solaris In-reply-to: <4682E847.4080607@sun.com> To: Alan Coopersmith Cc: Roland Mainz , Nicolas Williams , James Carlson , Vladimir.Kotal@sun.com, psarc-ext@sun.com Message-id: <4682F5D4.4090602@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <18050.56174.10487.287158@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4682DDE7.55CD604A@nrubsig.org> <20070627220212.GL1496@Sun.COM> <4682E14B.8C474C8F@nrubsig.org> <20070627221651.GM1496@Sun.COM> <4682E609.B1183D9B@nrubsig.org> <4682E847.4080607@sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060925) Status: RO Content-Length: 1894 Alan Coopersmith wrote: > Roland Mainz wrote: >> ... I wish there would be an ARC policy which says "... use command >> names longer than four characters for new commands unless the command >> has a precedent to use the specific "short" name since a decade or >> longer and/or is going to replace or superset an existing tool with a >> shorter name (or "derail" and write an opinion why a >> one/two/three-letter name is a good idea...) ...". > > That would be an update to the current ARC policy which says > "Utility names should be between two and nine characters, inclusive." > > > (which you can find linked from the Command Line Syntax Best Practices > > ) > The "between two and nine characters, inclusive" comes from AT&T getopts which comes from surveys done by Kathy Hemminway (of AT&T at the time). I talked with her (while at Sun) and there wasn't a really good reason for the lower limit of "2". Of course, we all realize why the 9 limit exists: [s.][.cc] - the 14 character SVr4 filesystem limit. Although 9 is still the "getopt" limit, we've already provided guidance that 9 can be better (mostly for prefixes - gootool-admin and such). We didn't provide any guidance about 2, but we probably should have - we felt the 26*26 space was already rather full. If anyone updates the documents, feel free to provide such guidance - I've just about enough "nits" to make these updates anyway. Most importantly, the ARC can always "suggest" longer (or shorter) names. All the "policies" are just places to start from. In this case, this was probably just a mis-understanding that "nc" was legacy, and it appears that it wasn't legacy. I've often groused at my favorite typo --- "vi" vs. "ci" (as in rcs). - jek3 From johnlev@barman.uk.sun.com Wed Jun 27 17:08:16 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l5S08Fot019921 for ; Wed, 27 Jun 2007 17:08:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l5S06T7E006896 for <@sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com:psarc-ext@sun.com>; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 01:06:31 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JKB00D05KAUU200@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 27 Jun 2007 17:06:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dm-uk-01.uk.sun.com ([129.156.101.115]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JKB0055XKATJO80@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 27 Jun 2007 17:06:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from barman.uk.sun.com (barman.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.132.12]) by dm-uk-01.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.6/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l5S06O5O025401; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 01:06:24 +0100 (BST) Received: from johnlev by barman.uk.sun.com with local (Exim 4.42) id 1I3hXM-0000hz-48; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 01:07:04 +0100 X-URL: http://jurassic.eng/~johnlev/ Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 01:07:04 +0100 From: John Levon Subject: Re: 2007/389 Netcat In Solaris In-reply-to: <4682E9F2.EA43B72C@nrubsig.org> Sender: John Levon To: Roland Mainz Cc: James Carlson , Vladimir.Kotal@sun.com, psarc-ext@sun.com Message-id: <20070628000703.GA2420@barman.uk.sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <18050.56174.10487.287158@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4682DDE7.55CD604A@nrubsig.org> <20070627220212.GL1496@Sun.COM> <4682E14B.8C474C8F@nrubsig.org> <18050.58453.154259.824654@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4682E9F2.EA43B72C@nrubsig.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i Status: RO Content-Length: 371 On Thu, Jun 28, 2007 at 12:51:30AM +0200, Roland Mainz wrote: > - RedHat/Fedora seems to use /usr/bin/netcat (see > http://rpmseek.com/rpm/netcat-3.6-alt2.x86_64.html?hl=com&cs=netcat:PN:0:0:0:0:2223268) This is not correct, by default you get an 'nc' RPM that installs /usr/bin/nc in at least Fedora 4 and RHEL, and there is no netcat or /usr/bin/netcat regards john From Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de Thu Jun 28 00:59:41 2007 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l5S7xfPe028483 for ; 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Thu, 28 Jun 2007 09:57:50 +0200 Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 09:55:51 +0200 From: Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (Joerg Schilling) Subject: Re: Naming policy for new commands ? / was: Re: 2007/389 Netcat In Solaris In-reply-to: <4682F5D4.4090602@sun.com> To: jek3@sun.com, alan.coopersmith@sun.com Cc: Vladimir.Kotal@sun.com, psarc-ext@sun.com Message-id: <46836987.mBl65w3KdVixW2IY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 X-Fraunhofer-Email-Policy: accepted References: <18050.56174.10487.287158@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4682DDE7.55CD604A@nrubsig.org> <20070627220212.GL1496@Sun.COM> <4682E14B.8C474C8F@nrubsig.org> <20070627221651.GM1496@Sun.COM> <4682E609.B1183D9B@nrubsig.org> <4682E847.4080607@sun.com> <4682F5D4.4090602@sun.com> User-Agent: nail 11.22 3/20/05 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Jun 2007 07:57:50.0502 (UTC) FILETIME=[062AEC60:01C7B95A] Status: RO Content-Length: 1174 Joseph Kowalski wrote: > The "between two and nine characters, inclusive" comes from AT&T getopts > which comes from surveys done by Kathy Hemminway (of AT&T at the time). > I talked with her (while at Sun) and there wasn't a really good reason > for the > lower limit of "2". > > Of course, we all realize why the 9 limit exists: [s.][.cc] - the > 14 character > SVr4 filesystem limit. > > Although 9 is still the "getopt" limit, we've already provided guidance > that 9 > can be better (mostly for prefixes - gootool-admin and such). We didn't > provide Why do you believe that such a "getopt()" limit exists? > just a mis-understanding that "nc" was legacy, and it appears that it wasn't > legacy. > > I've often groused at my favorite typo --- "vi" vs. "ci" (as in rcs). Well, try to add a new command called "xs" and see what happens ;-) Jörg -- EMail:joerg@schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin js@cs.tu-berlin.de (uni) schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily From James.Hughes@sun.com Thu Jun 28 07:51:11 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l5SEpAC3008860 for ; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 07:51:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l5SEnNAs012694 for <@sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com:psarc-ext@sun.com>; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 15:49:26 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JKC00B0HP6CBM00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Thu, 28 Jun 2007 07:49:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sca-es-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.43.133]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JKC00AZCP66P610@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Thu, 28 Jun 2007 07:49:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fe-sfbay-09.sun.com ([192.18.43.129]) by sca-es-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l5SEnIXa005291 for ; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 07:49:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.fe-sfbay-09.sun.com by fe-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0JKC00901P2AX900@fe-sfbay-09.sun.com> (original mail from James.Hughes@Sun.COM) for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Thu, 28 Jun 2007 07:49:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.118] ([67.164.171.221]) by fe-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0JKC00JK9P63H9G0@fe-sfbay-09.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Thu, 28 Jun 2007 07:49:15 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 07:49:14 -0700 From: James Hughes Subject: Re: Naming policy for new commands ? / was: Re: 2007/389 Netcat In Solaris In-reply-to: <4682e996.yYAa+ZJ46uvc3qKt%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> Sender: James.Hughes@sun.com To: Joerg Schilling Cc: James Hughes , roland.mainz@nrubsig.org, Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com, Vladimir.Kotal@sun.com, psarc-ext@sun.com Message-id: <043A35D1-3469-4547-8254-840AC5FB79D3@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.880) Content-type: text/plain; delsp=yes; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <18050.56174.10487.287158@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4682DDE7.55CD604A@nrubsig.org> <20070627220212.GL1496@Sun.COM> <4682E14B.8C474C8F@nrubsig.org> <20070627221651.GM1496@Sun.COM> <4682E609.B1183D9B@nrubsig.org> <4682E847.4080607@sun.com> <4682e996.yYAa+ZJ46uvc3qKt%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> Status: RO Content-Length: 1417 I use nc. I find it to be what is advertised. "netcat is a simple unix utility which reads and writes data across network connections". No more no less. A hacker's (in the positive sense) tool. The tool is simple and powerful and could easily be considered by any networking person as important as mv or cp is to a file system person. On Jun 27, 2007, at 3:49 PM, Joerg Schilling wrote: > Alan Coopersmith wrote: >> >> That would be an update to the current ARC policy which says >> "Utility names should be between two and nine characters, inclusive." > > I believe that shorter names should be reserved for programs that > use the short name already for a very long time. Donno, is 1995 "a very long time"? http://www.hmug.org/man/1/nc.php "nc" is the command name on several lini as well as Debian and MacOS X as well as Joyent. Joyent is/uses a Solaris distro SunOS [...].textdrive.com 5.11 snv_62 i86pc i386 i86pc On Joyent, nedit is nowhere to be found. From a history perspective nedit was introduced in Nov 1993 beating netcat by a year or two? http://nedit.gmxhome.de/history.html NEdit (nedit project) 132,865 total downloads to date http://www.nedit.org/download.php netcat, downloads since 2002 a total of 6,935,628 http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=52204&package_id=46263 I am not suggesting a solution, but making observations From gww@eng.sun.com Thu Jun 28 13:26:10 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l5SKQ9lC018121 for ; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 13:26:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l5SKONM4004915 for <@sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com:psarc-ext@sun.com>; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 21:24:24 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JKD0020D4ONGV00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Thu, 28 Jun 2007 13:24:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail3mpk.sfbay.Sun.COM ([129.146.11.26]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JKD000MI4OMEV30@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Thu, 28 Jun 2007 13:24:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from marduk.eng.sun.com (marduk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.108.224]) by engmail3mpk.sfbay.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l5SKOLF8019299; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 13:24:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from marduk.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by marduk.eng.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l5SKRJqv003472; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 13:27:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from gww@localhost) by marduk.eng.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.11/Submit) id l5SKRJj1003471; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 13:27:19 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 13:27:19 -0700 (PDT) From: Gary Winiger Subject: Re: 2007/389 Netcat In Solaris To: james.d.carlson@sun.com, psarc-ext@sun.com Cc: vladimir.kotal@sun.com Message-id: <200706282027.l5SKRJj1003471@marduk.eng.sun.com> Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 Status: RO Content-Length: 715 > Background > ---------- > > Since its birth in 1996 Netcat utility has been widely used for network > debugging, testing and scripting. Because of its versatility, it is often > called "TCP/IP Swiss Army knife". During the course of time multiple > implementations of Netcat became available. Because of the high demand > for the utility it was included in base of systems such as various Linux > distributions, FreeBSD and OpenBSD. Now it's time for Solaris to join > the club too. It looks like some of the use of netcat either requires or would be done in an enviroment with greater privilege than the noaccess user. Perhaps an appropriate RBAC netcat/nc entry should be part of this project. Gary.. From carlsonj@phorcys.east.sun.com Thu Jun 28 13:38:11 2007 Received: from newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (newsunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.245]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l5SKcBu2018456 for ; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 13:38:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l5SKZjoi012524; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 14:35:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JKD0020D58OYU00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 13:36:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com ([129.148.174.143]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JKD000GH58NEP40@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 13:36:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l5SKaN5x011892; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 16:36:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from carlsonj@localhost) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1/Submit) id l5SKaMqL011889; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 16:36:22 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 16:36:22 -0400 From: James Carlson Subject: Re: 2007/389 Netcat In Solaris In-reply-to: <200706282027.l5SKRJj1003471@marduk.eng.sun.com> To: Gary Winiger Cc: psarc-ext@sun.com, Vladimir.Kotal@sun.com Message-id: <18052.7110.926638.466681@gargle.gargle.HOWL> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: VM 7.01 under Emacs 21.3.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200706282027.l5SKRJj1003471@marduk.eng.sun.com> Status: RO Content-Length: 1993 Gary Winiger writes: > > Background > > ---------- > > > > Since its birth in 1996 Netcat utility has been widely used for network > > debugging, testing and scripting. Because of its versatility, it is often > > called "TCP/IP Swiss Army knife". During the course of time multiple > > implementations of Netcat became available. Because of the high demand > > for the utility it was included in base of systems such as various Linux > > distributions, FreeBSD and OpenBSD. Now it's time for Solaris to join > > the club too. > > It looks like some of the use of netcat either requires or > would be done in an enviroment with greater privilege than > the noaccess user. Perhaps an appropriate RBAC netcat/nc entry > should be part of this project. I'm not sure how that would be used. Can you clarify? The ordinary uses of netcat include: - from the command line, using the users ordinary privilege (or lack thereof), to make TCP/UDP connections that the user could otherwise do with things like Perl. - in inetd.conf (or now as inetd SMF services) to redirect from one port to another. In the former case, you're using the user's privileges, and it's unclear to me why you'd want a blanket grant based on netcat itself. It doesn't make administrative sense to me. Granting special authorizations for scripted tools built on _top_ of netcat makes sense, but I think it's those tools that would need RBAC, not netcat itself. Netcat is just too generic. For the latter case, inetd itself has the right privileges to bind the source address and port for netcat to use. Netcat doesn't need to be anything other than "noaccess." The TCP/IP remote address and port are not subject to any sort of privilege-based controls. -- James Carlson, Solaris Networking Sun Microsystems / 1 Network Drive 71.232W Vox +1 781 442 2084 MS UBUR02-212 / Burlington MA 01803-2757 42.496N Fax +1 781 442 1677 From Garrett.Damore@Sun.COM Thu Jun 28 13:40:16 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l5SKeFJC018470 for ; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 13:40:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l5SKcTLv017280 for <@sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com:psarc-ext@sun.com>; Fri, 29 Jun 2007 04:38:30 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JKD003055C31P00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Thu, 28 Jun 2007 13:38:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sca-es-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.43.133]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JKD000295C3EQ40@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Thu, 28 Jun 2007 13:38:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fe-sfbay-10.sun.com ([192.18.43.129]) by sca-es-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l5SKcRlB017403 for ; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 13:38:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.fe-sfbay-10.sun.com by fe-sfbay-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0JKD00I014W9QL00@fe-sfbay-10.sun.com> (original mail from Garrett.Damore@Sun.COM) for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Thu, 28 Jun 2007 13:38:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.251.21] ([76.174.83.55]) by fe-sfbay-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0JKD00ADZ5C2HMD0@fe-sfbay-10.sun.com>; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 13:38:27 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 13:35:56 -0700 From: "Garrett D'Amore" Subject: Re: 2007/389 Netcat In Solaris In-reply-to: <200706282027.l5SKRJj1003471@marduk.eng.sun.com> Sender: Garrett.Damore@Sun.COM To: Gary Winiger Cc: James.D.Carlson@Sun.COM, psarc-ext@Sun.COM, Vladimir.Kotal@Sun.COM Message-id: <46841BAC.1010708@sun.com> Organization: Sun Microsystems MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200706282027.l5SKRJj1003471@marduk.eng.sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0b2 (X11/20070227) Status: RO Content-Length: 916 Gary Winiger wrote: >> Background >> ---------- >> >> Since its birth in 1996 Netcat utility has been widely used for network >> debugging, testing and scripting. Because of its versatility, it is often >> called "TCP/IP Swiss Army knife". During the course of time multiple >> implementations of Netcat became available. Because of the high demand >> for the utility it was included in base of systems such as various Linux >> distributions, FreeBSD and OpenBSD. Now it's time for Solaris to join >> the club too. >> > > It looks like some of the use of netcat either requires or > would be done in an enviroment with greater privilege than > the noaccess user. Perhaps an appropriate RBAC netcat/nc entry > should be part of this project. > Huh? Can you clarify? I think netcat is just a generic server/client application. It shouldn't (IMO) need any extra network privileges. -- Garrett From Darren.Reed@sun.com Thu Jun 28 13:45:52 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l5SKjptW018529 for ; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 13:45:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l5SKhxh2010581 for <@newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com:psarc-ext@sun.com>; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 21:44:06 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JKD00E0B5LHF800@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Thu, 28 Jun 2007 14:44:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sineb-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.19.7]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JKD001A65LGEMF0@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Thu, 28 Jun 2007 14:44:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from fe-apac-06.sun.com (fe-apac-06.sun.com [192.18.19.177] (may be forged)) by sineb-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l5SKi3e9017239 for ; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 20:44:03 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.mail-apac.sun.com by mail-apac.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JKD00L015J24Z00@mail-apac.sun.com> (original mail from Darren.Reed@Sun.COM) for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Fri, 29 Jun 2007 04:44:03 +0800 (SGT) Received: from [129.146.106.55] by mail-apac.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JKD000E95LD8ITK@mail-apac.sun.com>; Fri, 29 Jun 2007 04:44:03 +0800 (SGT) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 13:44:00 -0700 From: Darren.Reed@sun.com Subject: Re: 2007/389 Netcat In Solaris In-reply-to: <200706282027.l5SKRJj1003471@marduk.eng.sun.com> Sender: Darren.Reed@sun.com To: Gary Winiger Cc: james.d.carlson@sun.com, psarc-ext@sun.com, Vladimir.Kotal@sun.com Message-id: <46841D90.6000506@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en-us, en X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200706282027.l5SKRJj1003471@marduk.eng.sun.com> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; SunOS i86pc; en-US; rv:1.7) Gecko/20060120 Status: RO Content-Length: 957 Gary Winiger wrote: >>Background >>---------- >> >>Since its birth in 1996 Netcat utility has been widely used for network >>debugging, testing and scripting. Because of its versatility, it is often >>called "TCP/IP Swiss Army knife". During the course of time multiple >>implementations of Netcat became available. Because of the high demand >>for the utility it was included in base of systems such as various Linux >>distributions, FreeBSD and OpenBSD. Now it's time for Solaris to join >>the club too. >> >> > > It looks like some of the use of netcat either requires or > would be done in an enviroment with greater privilege than > the noaccess user. Perhaps an appropriate RBAC netcat/nc entry > should be part of this project. > > Granting netcat the net_privaddr privilege for a user would enable them to listen on any unbound privilege port... This seems like a tad too much rope? Unless there is another relevant privilege? Darren From gww@eng.sun.com Thu Jun 28 13:53:17 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l5SKrGKu018934 for ; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 13:53:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l5SKoogh020732 for <@newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com:psarc-ext@sun.com>; Fri, 29 Jun 2007 04:51:31 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JKD00F035XV3J00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Thu, 28 Jun 2007 14:51:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from engmail3mpk.sfbay.Sun.COM ([129.146.11.26]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JKD001QW5XUEPD0@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Thu, 28 Jun 2007 14:51:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from marduk.eng.sun.com (marduk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.108.224]) by engmail3mpk.sfbay.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l5SKpTFR022938; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 13:51:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from marduk.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by marduk.eng.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l5SKsR4H003534; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 13:54:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from gww@localhost) by marduk.eng.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.11/Submit) id l5SKsRNL003533; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 13:54:27 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 13:54:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Gary Winiger Subject: Re: 2007/389 Netcat In Solaris To: gww@eng.sun.com, james.d.carlson@sun.com Cc: psarc-ext@sun.com, Vladimir.Kotal@sun.com Message-id: <200706282054.l5SKsRNL003533@marduk.eng.sun.com> Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 Status: RO Content-Length: 1769 > Gary Winiger writes: > > > Background > > > ---------- > > > > > > Since its birth in 1996 Netcat utility has been widely used for network > > > debugging, testing and scripting. Because of its versatility, it is often > > > called "TCP/IP Swiss Army knife". During the course of time multiple > > > implementations of Netcat became available. Because of the high demand > > > for the utility it was included in base of systems such as various Linux > > > distributions, FreeBSD and OpenBSD. Now it's time for Solaris to join > > > the club too. > > > > It looks like some of the use of netcat either requires or > > would be done in an enviroment with greater privilege than > > the noaccess user. Perhaps an appropriate RBAC netcat/nc entry > > should be part of this project. > > I'm not sure how that would be used. Can you clarify? If an administrator would want to run netcat to debug something that take listening on a reserved port, or some other network related privilege. Do any of the options require raw access, I wasn't sure. Similarly for icmp. > > The ordinary uses of netcat include: > > - from the command line, using the users ordinary privilege > (or lack thereof), to make TCP/UDP connections that the user > could otherwise do with things like Perl. > > - in inetd.conf (or now as inetd SMF services) to redirect > from one port to another. > > In the former case, you're using the user's privileges, and it's > unclear to me why you'd want a blanket grant based on netcat itself. I wouldn't. As I noted above, I wasn't sure. It's possible it would make sense to have a rights profile grant net_icmp and or net_priv_addr, net_raw_access if there are options that require them. Gary.. From jek3@sun.com Thu Jun 28 14:04:37 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l5SL4bIo019744 for ; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 14:04:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l5SL2nPj015260; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 22:02:50 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JKD00M036GO3Y00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 14:02:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com ([129.146.17.63]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JKD005J46GN86A0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 14:02:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [129.150.12.53] (vpn-129-150-12-53.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.12.53]) by jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l5SL2j0W209962; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 14:02:45 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 11:01:30 -1000 From: Joseph Kowalski Subject: Re: Naming policy for new commands ? / was: Re: 2007/389 Netcat In Solaris In-reply-to: <46836987.mBl65w3KdVixW2IY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> To: Joerg Schilling Cc: alan.coopersmith@sun.com, Vladimir.Kotal@sun.com, psarc-ext@sun.com Message-id: <468421AA.9020909@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <18050.56174.10487.287158@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4682DDE7.55CD604A@nrubsig.org> <20070627220212.GL1496@Sun.COM> <4682E14B.8C474C8F@nrubsig.org> <20070627221651.GM1496@Sun.COM> <4682E609.B1183D9B@nrubsig.org> <4682E847.4080607@sun.com> <4682F5D4.4090602@sun.com> <46836987.mBl65w3KdVixW2IY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060925) Status: RO Content-Length: 2108 Joerg Schilling wrote: > Joseph Kowalski wrote: > > >> The "between two and nine characters, inclusive" comes from AT&T getopts >> which comes from surveys done by Kathy Hemminway (of AT&T at the time). >> I talked with her (while at Sun) and there wasn't a really good reason >> for the >> lower limit of "2". >> >> Of course, we all realize why the 9 limit exists: [s.][.cc] - the >> 14 character >> SVr4 filesystem limit. >> >> Although 9 is still the "getopt" limit, we've already provided guidance >> that 9 >> can be better (mostly for prefixes - gootool-admin and such). We didn't >> provide >> > > Why do you believe that such a "getopt()" limit exists? > I'm not sure what you are asking. I tried to motivate why the upper limit of 9 exists. It comes from developer conventions bounded by the 14 character limit on the legacy SysV file system. Long ago,... Far away,... Why the lower limit of 2? It seems that the people (driven by Kathy) thought that 1 was too low, but 2 was ok. I *suspect* that since that there were many legacy 2 letter utility names existed, they decided on 2. This was nothing more than a random choice which probably seems to be a bad choice from today's perspective, but probably seemed to be a reasonable choice at that time. Its still found in SVID, POSIX and SUS. Some things never die. If you asking about what getopt(3c) actually does... nothing... DESCRIPTION The getopt() function is a command line parser that can be used by applications that follow Basic Utility Syntax Guide- lines 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 9, and 10 which parallel those defined by application portability standards (see intro(1)). (This is "Basic Utility Syntax Guideline 1"). There really isn't interesting to discuss here. The ARCs will decide if the utility names suggested by the project teams are appropriate. 2 or 3 or even 4 character names for non-legacy utilities would be under close scrutiny. Then again, so would some FOSS names like this_is_georges_utility_which_was_designed_while_drinking... :-) - jek3 From carlsonj@phorcys.east.sun.com Thu Jun 28 14:07:11 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l5SL7AL7019814 for ; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 14:07:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l5SL5MXE016038; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 22:05:25 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JKD00G076L06I00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 15:05:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com ([129.148.174.143]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JKD00FHE6KZON00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 15:05:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l5SL5N1M012089; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 17:05:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from carlsonj@localhost) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1/Submit) id l5SL5MlX012086; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 17:05:22 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 17:05:22 -0400 From: James Carlson Subject: Re: 2007/389 Netcat In Solaris In-reply-to: <200706282054.l5SKsRNL003533@marduk.eng.sun.com> To: Gary Winiger Cc: psarc-ext@sun.com, Vladimir.Kotal@sun.com Message-id: <18052.8850.917897.912834@gargle.gargle.HOWL> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: VM 7.01 under Emacs 21.3.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200706282054.l5SKsRNL003533@marduk.eng.sun.com> Status: RO Content-Length: 1812 Gary Winiger writes: > > I'm not sure how that would be used. Can you clarify? > > If an administrator would want to run netcat to debug something > that take listening on a reserved port, or some other network > related privilege. Do any of the options require raw access, > I wasn't sure. Similarly for icmp. Neither raw nor ICMP access are handled. It does TCP, UDP, and related Unix-domain sockets. > > In the former case, you're using the user's privileges, and it's > > unclear to me why you'd want a blanket grant based on netcat itself. > > I wouldn't. As I noted above, I wasn't sure. It's possible it > would make sense to have a rights profile grant net_icmp and or > net_priv_addr, net_raw_access if there are options that require > them. It'd be possible to make use of net_priv_addr, but not the other two. However, I'd seriously question using the profile to grant rights for netcat itself. That seems like a mistake, because netcat (otherwise) lets you bind anything you want, and giving that out would be like giving net_priv_addr to /usr/bin/perl for some profile. It might make sense to have a "listen_on_netbios" script (or some such) that does "nc -lu -p 139", and then grant net_priv_addr to that script. (Looking at the draft man page again, it looks like we need at least one update here before. Somehow, the -l option has both [hostname] and [port] being independently optional, and that can't possibly be. I tried to help the submitter clean up the imprecise and strange BSD source page, but somehow that slipped through. Apologies ...) -- James Carlson, Solaris Networking Sun Microsystems / 1 Network Drive 71.232W Vox +1 781 442 2084 MS UBUR02-212 / Burlington MA 01803-2757 42.496N Fax +1 781 442 1677 From gww@eng.sun.com Thu Jun 28 14:10:45 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l5SLAiQ2019829 for ; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 14:10:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l5SL8wJ2024870 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:psarc-ext@sun.com>; Fri, 29 Jun 2007 05:08:59 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JKD00M036QXP900@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Thu, 28 Jun 2007 14:08:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail3mpk.sfbay.Sun.COM ([129.146.11.26]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JKD0057R6QX89B0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Thu, 28 Jun 2007 14:08:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from marduk.eng.sun.com (marduk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.108.224]) by engmail3mpk.sfbay.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l5SL8ttU024627; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 14:08:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from marduk.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by marduk.eng.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l5SLBsLS003578; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 14:11:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from gww@localhost) by marduk.eng.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.11/Submit) id l5SLBruc003577; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 14:11:53 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 14:11:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Gary Winiger Subject: Re: 2007/389 Netcat In Solaris To: gww@eng.sun.com, james.d.carlson@sun.com Cc: psarc-ext@sun.com, Vladimir.Kotal@sun.com Message-id: <200706282111.l5SLBruc003577@marduk.eng.sun.com> Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 Status: RO Content-Length: 439 > It'd be possible to make use of net_priv_addr, but not the other two. > > However, I'd seriously question using the profile to grant rights for > netcat itself. That seems like a mistake, because netcat (otherwise) > lets you bind anything you want, and giving that out would be like > giving net_priv_addr to /usr/bin/perl for some profile. Fine. I just wasn't sure how much privilege might be expected by an admin user. Gary.. From alan.coopersmith@sun.com Thu Jun 28 14:11:35 2007 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l5SLBZBJ019843 for ; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 14:11:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l5SL9nbx010865; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 14:09:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JKD00G056SEI900@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 15:09:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sfbaymail1sca.SFBay.Sun.COM ([129.145.154.35]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JKD00FRK6SDON00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 15:09:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [129.146.108.211] (almas.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.108.211]) by sfbaymail1sca.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l5SL9lwf000070; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 14:09:48 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 14:09:47 -0700 From: Alan Coopersmith Subject: Re: Naming policy for new commands ? / was: Re: 2007/389 Netcat In Solaris In-reply-to: <468421AA.9020909@sun.com> To: Joseph Kowalski Cc: Joerg Schilling , Vladimir.Kotal@sun.com, psarc-ext@sun.com Message-id: <4684239B.6000102@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <18050.56174.10487.287158@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4682DDE7.55CD604A@nrubsig.org> <20070627220212.GL1496@Sun.COM> <4682E14B.8C474C8F@nrubsig.org> <20070627221651.GM1496@Sun.COM> <4682E609.B1183D9B@nrubsig.org> <4682E847.4080607@sun.com> <4682F5D4.4090602@sun.com> <46836987.mBl65w3KdVixW2IY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <468421AA.9020909@sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.0 (X11/20070423) Status: RO Content-Length: 665 Joseph Kowalski wrote: > Joerg Schilling wrote: >> Joseph Kowalski wrote: >>> Although 9 is still the "getopt" limit, we've already provided >>> guidance that 9 >>> can be better (mostly for prefixes - gootool-admin and such). We >>> didn't provide >>> >> >> Why do you believe that such a "getopt()" limit exists? >> > I'm not sure what you are asking. I think he's trying to ask the same thing that's confusing me - why do you call this a "getopt" limit? It doesn't seem to be related to the getopt(3c) function call. -- -Alan Coopersmith- alan.coopersmith@sun.com Sun Microsystems, Inc. - X Window System Engineering From Michael.Hunter@sun.com Thu Jun 28 14:20:03 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l5SLK1Lt020422 for ; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 14:20:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l5SLIBfs027455 for <@newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com:psarc-ext@sun.com>; Fri, 29 Jun 2007 05:18:16 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JKD00H0576E4P00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Thu, 28 Jun 2007 15:18:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sca-es-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.43.132]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JKD00FDM76EOT10@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Thu, 28 Jun 2007 15:18:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: from fe-sfbay-09.sun.com ([192.18.43.129]) by sca-es-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l5SLIEX4025684 for ; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 14:18:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.fe-sfbay-09.sun.com by fe-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0JKD0080171MJ700@fe-sfbay-09.sun.com> (original mail from Michael.Hunter@Sun.COM) for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Thu, 28 Jun 2007 14:18:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sun.com ([10.7.251.174]) by fe-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0JKD009YP76DM590@fe-sfbay-09.sun.com>; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 14:18:13 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 14:18:13 -0700 From: Michael Hunter Subject: Re: 2007/389 Netcat In Solaris In-reply-to: <200706282111.l5SLBruc003577@marduk.eng.sun.com> Sender: Michael.Hunter@sun.com To: Gary Winiger Cc: gww@eng.sun.com, James.D.Carlson@sun.com, psarc-ext@sun.com, Vladimir.Kotal@sun.com Message-id: <20070628141813.000020f4@localhost> Organization: SMI MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Claws Mail 2.9.2-csw (GTK+ 2.10.11; i386-pc-solaris2.8) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200706282111.l5SLBruc003577@marduk.eng.sun.com> Status: RO Content-Length: 796 On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 14:11:53 -0700 (PDT) Gary Winiger wrote: > > > It'd be possible to make use of net_priv_addr, but not the other two. > > > > However, I'd seriously question using the profile to grant rights for > > netcat itself. That seems like a mistake, because netcat (otherwise) > > lets you bind anything you want, and giving that out would be like > > giving net_priv_addr to /usr/bin/perl for some profile. > > Fine. I just wasn't sure how much privilege might be expected > by an admin user. As a comparison snoop(1M) is shipped without anything special and its notwhere near as multipurpose sharp an instrument as netcat. I think people expect to have to get privs to use such tools and administrators expect to have to enable use of such tools. mph From carlsonj@phorcys.east.sun.com Thu Jun 28 14:24:41 2007 Received: from newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (newsunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.245]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l5SLOfLp020763 for ; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 14:24:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l5SLMFue019190; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 15:22:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JKD00H057E7HI00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 15:22:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com ([129.148.174.143]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JKD00FE87E6OL10@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 15:22:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l5SLMrEW012233; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 17:22:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from carlsonj@localhost) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1/Submit) id l5SLMrVO012230; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 17:22:53 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 17:22:53 -0400 From: James Carlson Subject: Re: 2007/389 Netcat In Solaris In-reply-to: <20070628141813.000020f4@localhost> To: Michael Hunter Cc: Gary Winiger , psarc-ext@sun.com, Vladimir.Kotal@sun.com Message-id: <18052.9901.62787.209710@gargle.gargle.HOWL> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: VM 7.01 under Emacs 21.3.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200706282111.l5SLBruc003577@marduk.eng.sun.com> <20070628141813.000020f4@localhost> Status: RO Content-Length: 1313 Michael Hunter writes: > On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 14:11:53 -0700 (PDT) > Gary Winiger wrote: > > > > > > It'd be possible to make use of net_priv_addr, but not the other two. > > > > > > However, I'd seriously question using the profile to grant rights for > > > netcat itself. That seems like a mistake, because netcat (otherwise) > > > lets you bind anything you want, and giving that out would be like > > > giving net_priv_addr to /usr/bin/perl for some profile. > > > > Fine. I just wasn't sure how much privilege might be expected > > by an admin user. > > As a comparison snoop(1M) is shipped without anything special and its > notwhere near as multipurpose sharp an instrument as netcat. I think > people expect to have to get privs to use such tools and administrators > expect to have to enable use of such tools. Snoop is quite a different beast from netcat. I'd compare netcat to telnet(1) before comparing it to snoop(1M). In any event, snoop is special: % grep snoop /etc/security/exec_attr Network Management:suser:cmd:::/usr/sbin/snoop:uid=0 % -- James Carlson, Solaris Networking Sun Microsystems / 1 Network Drive 71.232W Vox +1 781 442 2084 MS UBUR02-212 / Burlington MA 01803-2757 42.496N Fax +1 781 442 1677 From gww@eng.sun.com Thu Jun 28 14:25:47 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l5SLPkJX020802 for ; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 14:25:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l5SLNn9k028920 for <@sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com:psarc-ext@sun.com>; Fri, 29 Jun 2007 05:24:01 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JKD0050L7FYEZ00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Thu, 28 Jun 2007 14:23:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail3mpk.sfbay.Sun.COM ([129.146.11.26]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JKD000BF7FXET50@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Thu, 28 Jun 2007 14:23:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from marduk.eng.sun.com (marduk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.108.224]) by engmail3mpk.sfbay.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l5SLNtx6025928; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 14:23:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from marduk.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by marduk.eng.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l5SLQrUs003662; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 14:26:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from gww@localhost) by marduk.eng.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.11/Submit) id l5SLQrP7003661; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 14:26:53 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 14:26:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Gary Winiger Subject: Re: 2007/389 Netcat In Solaris To: gww@eng.sun.com, Michael.Hunter@sun.com Cc: James.D.Carlson@sun.com, psarc-ext@sun.com, Vladimir.Kotal@sun.com Message-id: <200706282126.l5SLQrP7003661@marduk.eng.sun.com> Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 Status: RO Content-Length: 396 > > Fine. I just wasn't sure how much privilege might be expected > > by an admin user. > > As a comparison snoop(1M) is shipped without anything special and its > notwhere near as multipurpose sharp an instrument as netcat. I think Not so. snoop is part of the Network Management Rights Profile. Any administrator/user granted that Rights Profile can run snoop as themselves. Gary.. From Bart.Blanquart@Sun.COM Thu Jun 28 14:55:36 2007 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l5SLtaDk021759 for ; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 14:55:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l5SLrp1V022005 for <@sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com:psarc-ext@sun.com>; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 14:53:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JKD006018TRIA00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Thu, 28 Jun 2007 14:53:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com ([129.156.42.6]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JKD000HZ8TQEPA0@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Thu, 28 Jun 2007 14:53:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d1-emea-10.sun.com ([192.18.2.120]) by gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l5SLrnCZ020580 for ; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 21:53:49 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-emea-10.sun.com by d1-emea-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JKD00G018RXNQ00@d1-emea-10.sun.com> (original mail from Bart.Blanquart@Sun.COM) for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Thu, 28 Jun 2007 22:53:49 +0100 (BST) Received: from [192.168.56.101] ([81.244.217.100]) by d1-emea-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JKD00NL58TP30CB@d1-emea-10.sun.com>; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 22:53:49 +0100 (BST) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 23:53:47 +0200 From: Bart Blanquart Subject: Re: 2007/389 Netcat In Solaris In-reply-to: <18052.8850.917897.912834@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Sender: Bart.Blanquart@Sun.COM To: James Carlson Cc: Gary Winiger , psarc-ext@Sun.COM, Vladimir.Kotal@Sun.COM Message-id: <4CB513C3-8502-4B06-A37F-431D44B8D891@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200706282054.l5SKsRNL003533@marduk.eng.sun.com> <18052.8850.917897.912834@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Status: RO Content-Length: 449 > It might make sense to have a "listen_on_netbios" script (or some > such) that does "nc -lu -p 139", and then grant net_priv_addr to that > script. It might be interesting to provide something along these lines in the EXAMPLES and/or INETD CAPABILITIES sections of the man page (one with a script and maybe one with an inetd manifest; to clarify both the possible need for net_priv_addr and the recommended ways of going about it). Bart From Vladimir.Kotal@sun.com Thu Jun 28 15:23:41 2007 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l5SMNfPD022622 for ; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 15:23:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l5SMLud7007163 for <@sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com:psarc-ext@sun.com>; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 15:21:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JKD0070FA4IYC00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Thu, 28 Jun 2007 15:21:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com ([129.156.42.5]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JKD000XPA4GEV90@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Thu, 28 Jun 2007 15:21:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d1-emea-09.sun.com (d1-emea-09.sun.com [192.18.2.119]) by gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l5SMLqgF001248 for ; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 22:21:52 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-emea-09.sun.com by d1-emea-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JKD004019ZXR300@d1-emea-09.sun.com> (original mail from Vladimir.Kotal@Sun.COM) for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Thu, 28 Jun 2007 23:21:52 +0100 (BST) Received: from [129.150.121.36] by d1-emea-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JKD00I11A4F9JTH@d1-emea-09.sun.com>; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 23:21:51 +0100 (BST) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 00:12:52 +0200 From: Vladimir Kotal Subject: Re: 2007/389 Netcat In Solaris In-reply-to: <18052.8850.917897.912834@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Sender: Vladimir.Kotal@sun.com To: James Carlson Cc: Gary Winiger , psarc-ext@sun.com Message-id: <46843264.3050406@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200706282054.l5SKsRNL003533@marduk.eng.sun.com> <18052.8850.917897.912834@gargle.gargle.HOWL> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.0 (X11/20070508) Status: RO Content-Length: 1148 James Carlson wrote: > (Looking at the draft man page again, it looks like we need at least > one update here before. Somehow, the -l option has both [hostname] > and [port] being independently optional, and that can't possibly be. > I tried to help the submitter clean up the imprecise and strange BSD > source page, but somehow that slipped through. Apologies ...) Doh, that's a gap indeed. All of the following uses are valid: nc -l -p 2222 nc -l 2222 nc -l tessier 2222 But this one is not: nc -l -p 2222 tessier So, the update in the man page would be: --- netcat.fast-track.txt.submitted Thu Jun 28 23:59:02 2007 +++ netcat.fast-track.txt Fri Jun 29 00:03:16 2007 @@ -86,8 +86,10 @@ [-s source_ip_address] [-T ToS] [-w timeout] [-X proxy_protocol] [-x proxy_address[:port]] hostname port[s] - nc -l [-46Ddkntuv] [-i interval] [-p port] [-T ToS] [hostname] [port] + nc -l [-46Ddkntuv] [-i interval] [-T ToS] hostname port + nc -l [-46Ddkntuv] [-i interval] [-p port] [-T ToS] [port] + nc -U [-Ddtvz] [-i interval] [-w timeout] path nc -Ul [-Ddktv] [-i interval] path From Michael.Hunter@Sun.COM Thu Jun 28 15:47:00 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l5SMkx1g022925 for ; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 15:47:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l5SMj7KH022595 for <@newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com:psarc-ext@sun.com>; Fri, 29 Jun 2007 06:45:14 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JKD00N1LB7C3B00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Thu, 28 Jun 2007 16:45:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sca-es-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.43.133]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JKD00FPYB7BOT80@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Thu, 28 Jun 2007 16:45:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: from fe-sfbay-09.sun.com ([192.18.43.129]) by sca-es-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l5SMjBTM001436 for ; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 15:45:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.fe-sfbay-09.sun.com by fe-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0JKD00001B5FAE00@fe-sfbay-09.sun.com> (original mail from Michael.Hunter@Sun.COM) for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Thu, 28 Jun 2007 15:45:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sun.com ([10.7.251.174]) by fe-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0JKD00526B79SSF0@fe-sfbay-09.sun.com>; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 15:45:09 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 15:45:09 -0700 From: Michael Hunter Subject: Re: 2007/389 Netcat In Solaris In-reply-to: <18052.9901.62787.209710@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Sender: Michael.Hunter@Sun.COM To: James Carlson Cc: Gary Winiger , psarc-ext@Sun.COM, Vladimir.Kotal@Sun.COM Message-id: <20070628154509.00007b1c@localhost> Organization: SMI MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Claws Mail 2.9.2-csw (GTK+ 2.10.11; i386-pc-solaris2.8) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200706282111.l5SLBruc003577@marduk.eng.sun.com> <20070628141813.000020f4@localhost> <18052.9901.62787.209710@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Status: RO Content-Length: 2232 On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 17:22:53 -0400 James Carlson wrote: > Michael Hunter writes: > > On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 14:11:53 -0700 (PDT) > > Gary Winiger wrote: [...] > Snoop is quite a different beast from netcat. I'd compare netcat to > telnet(1) before comparing it to snoop(1M). So the man page you put out says in its description: The nc (or netcat) utility is used for just about anything under the sun involving TCP or UDP. It can open TCP connections, send UDP packets, listen on arbitrary TCP and UDP ports, do port scanning, and deal with both IPv4 and IPv6. Unlike telnet(1), nc scripts nicely, and separates error messages onto standard error instead of sending them to standard output, as telnet(1) does with some. which says its a swiss army knife but calls out its scriptability in comparison to telnet. But the GNU manpage description says: Netcat is a simple Unix utility which reads and writes data across network connections, using TCP or UDP protocol. It is designed to be a reliable "back-end" tool that can be used directly or easily driven by other programs and scripts. At the same time, it is a feature-rich network debugging and exploration tool, since it can create almost any kind of connection you would need and has several interesting built-in capabilities. Netcat, or "nc" as the original program was named, should have been supplied long ago as another one of those cryptic but standard Unix tools. Not really different. But it does play up the debug/exploration features of netcat which is how I use it and why I affinitized its usage model with snoop. So Gary's question does make sense. There are different usage models. > > In any event, snoop is special: > > % grep snoop /etc/security/exec_attr > Network Management:suser:cmd:::/usr/sbin/snoop:uid=0 > % *blush* I'd hate anybody to see whats in my shell history... mph > > -- > James Carlson, Solaris Networking > Sun Microsystems / 1 Network Drive 71.232W Vox +1 781 442 2084 > MS UBUR02-212 / Burlington MA 01803-2757 42.496N Fax +1 781 442 1677 From Vladimir.Kotal@sun.com Thu Jun 28 16:28:30 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l5SNSTvB024226 for ; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 16:28:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l5SNQdPO002056 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:psarc-ext@sun.com>; Fri, 29 Jun 2007 07:26:44 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JKD00A23D4H7500@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Thu, 28 Jun 2007 16:26:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com ([129.156.42.5]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JKD0045ED4GPC70@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Thu, 28 Jun 2007 16:26:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d1-emea-09.sun.com (d1-emea-09.sun.com [192.18.2.119]) by gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l5SNQdt1002474 for ; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 23:26:39 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-emea-09.sun.com by d1-emea-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JKD00201D296700@d1-emea-09.sun.com> (original mail from Vladimir.Kotal@Sun.COM) for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Fri, 29 Jun 2007 00:26:39 +0100 (BST) Received: from [129.150.121.36] by d1-emea-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JKD00ILID4E9J4I@d1-emea-09.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Fri, 29 Jun 2007 00:26:39 +0100 (BST) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 01:17:39 +0200 From: Vladimir Kotal Subject: Re: 2007/389 Netcat In Solaris In-reply-to: <18050.58453.154259.824654@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Sender: Vladimir.Kotal@sun.com To: James Carlson Cc: Roland Mainz , Nicolas Williams , psarc-ext@sun.com Message-id: <46844193.5080500@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <18050.56174.10487.287158@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4682DDE7.55CD604A@nrubsig.org> <20070627220212.GL1496@Sun.COM> <4682E14B.8C474C8F@nrubsig.org> <18050.58453.154259.824654@gargle.gargle.HOWL> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.0 (X11/20070508) Status: RO Content-Length: 2347 James Carlson wrote: > Roland Mainz writes: >> 4. SuSE Linux 10.0 installs "netcat" as /usr/bin/netcat > > The rest of the issues I think are red herrings, but that one I agree > with. > > Vladimir, can you investigate how this is installed on other > platforms? I took it that 'nc' was the standard, but if that's not > so, and if there are allowable variants here that won't confuse > anyone, then let's pick something less ambiguous. I've done a bit of juggling with CDs and bit of searching and it is apparent that the use of 'nc' is prevailing (see table below). While the argument with typos might be valid (for some), most (a poll needed ?) are used to the notion of 'nc' representing Netcat (and vice versa). As for NEdit: binary called 'nc' is bundled with SunStudio 8 (in contrib directory which is not in regular user's $PATH) but that still IMHO does not speak with loud enough voice for using just 'netcat'. ---- Netcat locations --- Base system: /usr/bin/nc /usr/bin/netcat --------------------------------+----------------+-------------------+ Fedora Core 7 Live CD (i686) | X | N/A | Ubuntu 7.04 Live CD (x86) | /bin/nc | /bin/netcat | Gentoo 2007.0 Live CD (i686) | X | N/A | FreeBSD 5.4 (i386) | X | N/A | OpenBSD 4.1 | X | N/A | Apple OS X 10.4.10 | X | N/A | Suse 10.2 src-oss repo | N/A | X | SLAX (Slackware) 6.xrc4 LCD(x86)| X | N/A | Knoppix (Debian) 5.0 1CD 06-2006| /bin/nc | /bin/netcat | --- Packages: /usr/bin/nc /usr/bin/netcat --------------------------------+----------------+-------------------+ NetBSD (pkgsrc/net/netcat) |/usr/pkg/sbin/nc| N/A | NetBSD (pkgsrc/net/gnetcat) | N/A |/usr/pkg/bin/netcat| fink 0.8.1 (current) | /sw/bin/nc | N/A | Blastwave (Nevada) |/opt/csw/bin/nc |/opt/csw/bin/netcat| Note: 'X' means binary in given column is present, 'N/A' means not present. Otherwise, specific locations matching basename(1) of given column are given. From jek3@sun.com Thu Jun 28 16:29:11 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l5SNTAj4024361 for ; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 16:29:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l5SNRNPC021407; Fri, 29 Jun 2007 00:27:24 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JKD00B0DD5N5T00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 16:27:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com ([129.146.17.59]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JKD000C7D5MEVF0@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 16:27:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [129.150.12.53] (vpn-129-150-12-53.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.12.53]) by jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l5SNRKlo235996; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 16:27:20 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 13:26:04 -1000 From: Joseph Kowalski Subject: Re: Naming policy for new commands ? / was: Re: 2007/389 Netcat In Solaris In-reply-to: <4684239B.6000102@sun.com> To: Alan Coopersmith Cc: Joerg Schilling , Vladimir.Kotal@sun.com, psarc-ext@sun.com Message-id: <4684438C.2050400@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <18050.56174.10487.287158@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4682DDE7.55CD604A@nrubsig.org> <20070627220212.GL1496@Sun.COM> <4682E14B.8C474C8F@nrubsig.org> <20070627221651.GM1496@Sun.COM> <4682E609.B1183D9B@nrubsig.org> <4682E847.4080607@sun.com> <4682F5D4.4090602@sun.com> <46836987.mBl65w3KdVixW2IY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <468421AA.9020909@sun.com> <4684239B.6000102@sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060925) Status: RO Content-Length: 785 Alan Coopersmith wrote: > Joseph Kowalski wrote: >> Joerg Schilling wrote: >>> Joseph Kowalski wrote: >>>> Although 9 is still the "getopt" limit, we've already provided >>>> guidance that 9 >>>> can be better (mostly for prefixes - gootool-admin and such). We >>>> didn't provide >>>> >>> >>> Why do you believe that such a "getopt()" limit exists? >>> >> I'm not sure what you are asking. > > I think he's trying to ask the same thing that's confusing me - why > do you call this a "getopt" limit? It doesn't seem to be related > to the getopt(3c) function call. Oh... There are guidelines (see intro(1) or elsewhere). The 2 to 9 character limit is **guideline** #1. Guideline #1 is not implemented by getopt(3c). Sorry about the confusion. - jek3 From roland.mainz@nrubsig.org Thu Jun 28 16:47:50 2007 Received: from newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (newsunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.245]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l5SNloCV025148 for ; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 16:47:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l5SNjOju047447; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 17:45:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JKD00C05E0R4V00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 16:46:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.98.43]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JKD00BGXE0QBG00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 16:46:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay22.sun.com (relay22.sun.com [192.12.251.34] (may be forged)) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l5SNk2Qe010048; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 23:46:02 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mms23es.sun.com ([150.143.232.54] [150.143.232.54]) by relay22.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-226944; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 23:46:01 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay22.sun.com (relay22.sun.com [192.12.251.34]) by mms23es.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-530057; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 23:46:01 +0000 (Z) Received: from mail-in-05.arcor-online.net ([151.189.21.45] [151.189.21.45]) by relay22.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-1967360; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 23:46:01 +0000 (Z) Received: from mail-in-12-z2.arcor-online.net (mail-in-12-z2.arcor-online.net [151.189.8.29]) by mail-in-05.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 853A51FB083; Fri, 29 Jun 2007 01:46:00 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mail-in-08.arcor-online.net (mail-in-08.arcor-online.net [151.189.21.48]) by mail-in-12-z2.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39E7B27943C; Fri, 29 Jun 2007 01:46:00 +0200 (CEST) Received: from jupiterb48.nrubsig.org (dslb-084-058-194-125.pools.arcor-ip.net [84.58.194.125]) by mail-in-08.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A52F2BAED9; Fri, 29 Jun 2007 01:45:59 +0200 (CEST) Received: from nrubsig.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by jupiterb48.nrubsig.org (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l5SNjvT8008292; Fri, 29 Jun 2007 01:45:58 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 01:45:57 +0200 From: Roland Mainz Subject: Re: 2007/389 Netcat In Solaris Sender: gisburn@jupiterb48.nrubsig.org To: Vladimir Kotal Cc: James Carlson , Nicolas Williams , psarc-ext@sun.com Message-id: <46844835.5F586D94@nrubsig.org> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.11 sun4u) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.90.3/3547/Thu Jun 28 23:10:57 2007 on mail-in-08.arcor-online.net X-Virus-Status: Clean References: <18050.56174.10487.287158@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4682DDE7.55CD604A@nrubsig.org> <20070627220212.GL1496@Sun.COM> <4682E14B.8C474C8F@nrubsig.org> <18050.58453.154259.824654@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <46844193.5080500@sun.com> Status: RO Content-Length: 1034 Vladimir Kotal wrote: > James Carlson wrote: > > Roland Mainz writes: > >> 4. SuSE Linux 10.0 installs "netcat" as /usr/bin/netcat > > > > The rest of the issues I think are red herrings, but that one I agree > > with. > > > > Vladimir, can you investigate how this is installed on other > > platforms? I took it that 'nc' was the standard, but if that's not > > so, and if there are allowable variants here that won't confuse > > anyone, then let's pick something less ambiguous. > > I've done a bit of juggling with CDs and bit of searching and it is > apparent that the use of 'nc' is prevailing (see table below). I still think it is better to use "long names" to describe the tool. We're not in the 60/70 with 110 baud modems anymore... if you disagree please "derail" and write an opinion why a two-letter name is mandatory in this case... ---- Bye, Roland -- __ . . __ (o.\ \/ /.o) roland.mainz@nrubsig.org \__\/\/__/ MPEG specialist, C&&JAVA&&Sun&&Unix programmer /O /==\ O\ TEL +49 641 7950090 (;O/ \/ \O;) From jek3@sun.com Thu Jun 28 20:25:19 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l5T3PIPO028896 for ; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 20:25:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l5T3NP7D028619; Fri, 29 Jun 2007 11:23:25 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JKD00A01O30PV00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 20:23:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com ([129.146.17.63]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JKD00LJWO30UC80@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 20:23:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [129.150.12.53] (vpn-129-150-12-53.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.12.53]) by jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l5T3NJWF259444; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 20:23:20 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 17:22:03 -1000 From: Joseph Kowalski Subject: Re: 2007/389 Netcat In Solaris In-reply-to: <46844835.5F586D94@nrubsig.org> To: Roland Mainz Cc: Vladimir Kotal , James Carlson , Nicolas Williams , psarc-ext@sun.com Message-id: <46847ADB.40506@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <18050.56174.10487.287158@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4682DDE7.55CD604A@nrubsig.org> <20070627220212.GL1496@Sun.COM> <4682E14B.8C474C8F@nrubsig.org> <18050.58453.154259.824654@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <46844193.5080500@sun.com> <46844835.5F586D94@nrubsig.org> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060925) Status: RO Content-Length: 1570 Roland Mainz wrote: > Vladimir Kotal wrote: > >> James Carlson wrote: >> >>> Roland Mainz writes: >>> >>>> 4. SuSE Linux 10.0 installs "netcat" as /usr/bin/netcat >>>> >>> The rest of the issues I think are red herrings, but that one I agree >>> with. >>> >>> Vladimir, can you investigate how this is installed on other >>> platforms? I took it that 'nc' was the standard, but if that's not >>> so, and if there are allowable variants here that won't confuse >>> anyone, then let's pick something less ambiguous. >>> >> I've done a bit of juggling with CDs and bit of searching and it is >> apparent that the use of 'nc' is prevailing (see table below). >> > > I still think it is better to use "long names" to describe the tool. > We're not in the 60/70 with 110 baud modems anymore... if you disagree > please "derail" and write an opinion why a two-letter name is mandatory > in this case... > Such a "derail" would be not be appropriate. The supposed act of the ARC accepting the two-letter fits well within the guidelines (as per SVID, POSIX, SUS and OpenSolaris). The clear rationale is the "nc" is already legacy, even if it is FOSS legacy. "110 baud" references only serve to incite people. It serves no good purpose. The choice of a 2 character (nc) or 6 character (netcat) name is one of a trade-off: "nc" is the most well accepted name (or so it seems) "netcat" is more informative and does not conflict with nedit. How did "nc" become to stand for "nedit"? Now that is a puzzle... 8^) - jek3 From Michael.Hunter@sun.com Thu Jun 28 21:07:44 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l5T47hml029756 for ; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 21:07:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l5T45vHV012552 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:psarc-ext@sun.com>; Fri, 29 Jun 2007 05:05:58 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JKD00F03Q1X9D00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Thu, 28 Jun 2007 21:05:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sca-es-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.43.132]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JKD00LYOQ1TUCA0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Thu, 28 Jun 2007 21:05:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fe-sfbay-10.sun.com ([192.18.43.129]) by sca-es-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l5T45rOe024617 for ; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 21:05:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.fe-sfbay-10.sun.com by fe-sfbay-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0JKD00L01PX7LF00@fe-sfbay-10.sun.com> (original mail from Michael.Hunter@Sun.COM) for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Thu, 28 Jun 2007 21:05:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sun.com ([10.7.251.174]) by fe-sfbay-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0JKD00IV6Q1SAB10@fe-sfbay-10.sun.com>; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 21:05:53 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 21:05:52 -0700 From: Michael Hunter Subject: Re: 2007/389 Netcat In Solaris In-reply-to: <46847ADB.40506@sun.com> Sender: Michael.Hunter@sun.com To: Joseph Kowalski Cc: Roland Mainz , Vladimir Kotal , James Carlson , Nicolas Williams , psarc-ext@sun.com Message-id: <20070628210552.00005bad@localhost> Organization: SMI MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Claws Mail 2.9.2-csw (GTK+ 2.10.11; i386-pc-solaris2.8) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <18050.56174.10487.287158@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4682DDE7.55CD604A@nrubsig.org> <20070627220212.GL1496@Sun.COM> <4682E14B.8C474C8F@nrubsig.org> <18050.58453.154259.824654@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <46844193.5080500@sun.com> <46844835.5F586D94@nrubsig.org> <46847ADB.40506@sun.com> Status: RO Content-Length: 253 On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 17:22:03 -1000 Joseph Kowalski wrote: [...] > How did "nc" become to stand for "nedit"? Now that is a puzzle... 8^) Nedit has a client/server mode. I believe nc stands for Nedit Client. mph > > - jek3 > > From Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de Fri Jun 29 02:34:40 2007 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l5T9YdaV006277 for ; Fri, 29 Jun 2007 02:34:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l5T9WpBO005116; Fri, 29 Jun 2007 02:32:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JKE0010F56R3600@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Fri, 29 Jun 2007 03:32:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sca-ea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.43.24]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JKE000ZU56QO010@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Fri, 29 Jun 2007 03:32:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay21.sun.com (relay21.sun.com [192.12.251.14] (may be forged)) by sca-ea-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l5T9Wn5T003546; Fri, 29 Jun 2007 09:32:50 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mms23es.sun.com ([150.143.232.54] [150.143.232.54]) by relay21.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-266882; Fri, 29 Jun 2007 09:32:49 +0000 (Z) Received: from mms25bas.mms.us.syntegra.com (mms25bas.mms.us.syntegra.com [192.12.251.90]) by mms23es.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-1146658; Fri, 29 Jun 2007 09:32:49 +0000 (Z) Received: from mailgw12.fraunhofer.de ([153.96.1.24] [153.96.1.24]) by relay21.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-3285154; Fri, 29 Jun 2007 09:32:48 +0000 (Z) Received: from mailgw12.fraunhofer.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailgw12.fraunhofer.de (8.13.5+/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l5T9Wi6G027932; Fri, 29 Jun 2007 11:32:44 +0200 (CEST) Received: from pluto.fokus.fraunhofer.de (pluto.fokus.fraunhofer.de [195.37.77.164]) by mailgw12.fraunhofer.de (8.13.5+/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l5T9Wif5027924 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Fri, 29 Jun 2007 11:32:44 +0200 (CEST) Received: from EXCHSRV.fokus.fraunhofer.de (bohr [10.147.9.231]) by pluto.fokus.fraunhofer.de (8.13.7/8.13.7) with SMTP id l5T9WhFE003646; Fri, 29 Jun 2007 11:32:43 +0200 (MEST) Received: from burner ([10.147.65.166]) by EXCHSRV.fokus.fraunhofer.de with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Fri, 29 Jun 2007 11:32:43 +0200 Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 11:30:43 +0200 From: Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (Joerg Schilling) Subject: Re: 2007/389 Netcat In Solaris In-reply-to: <46847ADB.40506@sun.com> To: roland.mainz@nrubsig.org, jek3@sun.com Cc: Vladimir.Kotal@sun.com, psarc-ext@sun.com, James.D.Carlson@sun.com Message-id: <4684d143.FEapKtiqZrPWE41O%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 X-Fraunhofer-Email-Policy: accepted References: <18050.56174.10487.287158@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4682DDE7.55CD604A@nrubsig.org> <20070627220212.GL1496@Sun.COM> <4682E14B.8C474C8F@nrubsig.org> <18050.58453.154259.824654@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <46844193.5080500@sun.com> <46844835.5F586D94@nrubsig.org> <46847ADB.40506@sun.com> User-Agent: nail 11.22 3/20/05 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 29 Jun 2007 09:32:43.0802 (UTC) FILETIME=[720D4FA0:01C7BA30] Status: RO Content-Length: 1495 Joseph Kowalski wrote: > The choice of a 2 character (nc) or 6 character (netcat) name is one of > a trade-off: > > "nc" is the most well accepted name (or so it seems) > > "netcat" is more informative and does not conflict with nedit. > > How did "nc" become to stand for "nedit"? Now that is a puzzle... 8^) Well, even in the OSS world besides OpenSolaris there is a lot of thigs that could be done better ;-) Unfortunately, there are OSS authors that do not care about what already exists when they make a decision. This even applies to longer named commands. As an example, you might check for "compare". This is a program I maintain since 1984 that is similar to "cmp(1)". Around 2004, the people from ImageMagick decided to write a non-generic image compare program and gave them the name "compare". It took about a year until I received a note about this.... If you look at the 0x82 fdisk signature problem between Solaris and Linux, where Linux did chose 0x82 for "Linux swap" ~ 3 months after Sun did chose the same signature, the answer would be: publish eadly and often. For people who ignore what happens outside their rooms, this does not help. Jörg -- EMail:joerg@schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin js@cs.tu-berlin.de (uni) schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily From Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de Fri Jun 29 03:46:42 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l5TAkfd7007426 for ; Fri, 29 Jun 2007 03:46:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l5TAijQG008329; Fri, 29 Jun 2007 11:44:52 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JKE005018INN700@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Fri, 29 Jun 2007 03:44:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sca-ea-mail-3.sun.com ([192.18.43.21]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JKE00COQ8INEWA0@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Fri, 29 Jun 2007 03:44:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay22.sun.com (relay22.sun.com [192.12.251.34] (may be forged)) by sca-ea-mail-3.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l5TAilTJ012113; Fri, 29 Jun 2007 10:44:47 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mms24es.sun.com ([150.143.232.74] [150.143.232.74]) by relay22.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-276925; Fri, 29 Jun 2007 10:44:46 +0000 (Z) Received: from mms25bas.mms.us.syntegra.com (mms25bas.mms.us.syntegra.com [192.12.251.90]) by mms24es.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-1239497; Fri, 29 Jun 2007 10:44:45 +0000 (Z) Received: from mailgw1.fraunhofer.de ([153.96.1.18] [153.96.1.18]) by relay21.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-3394229; Fri, 29 Jun 2007 10:44:45 +0000 (Z) Received: from mailgw1.fraunhofer.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailgw1.fraunhofer.de (8.13.5+/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l5TAiiWv018874; Fri, 29 Jun 2007 12:44:44 +0200 (CEST) Received: from pluto.fokus.fraunhofer.de (pluto.fokus.fraunhofer.de [195.37.77.164]) by mailgw1.fraunhofer.de (8.13.5+/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l5TAihKI018838 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Fri, 29 Jun 2007 12:44:43 +0200 (CEST) Received: from EXCHSRV.fokus.fraunhofer.de (bohr [10.147.9.231]) by pluto.fokus.fraunhofer.de (8.13.7/8.13.7) with SMTP id l5TAihTs007016; Fri, 29 Jun 2007 12:44:43 +0200 (MEST) Received: from burner ([10.147.65.166]) by EXCHSRV.fokus.fraunhofer.de with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Fri, 29 Jun 2007 12:44:43 +0200 Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 12:42:43 +0200 From: Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (Joerg Schilling) Subject: Re: Naming policy for new commands ? / was: Re: 2007/389 Netcat In Solaris In-reply-to: <468421AA.9020909@sun.com> To: jek3@Sun.COM Cc: Vladimir.Kotal@Sun.COM, psarc-ext@Sun.COM, alan.coopersmith@Sun.COM Message-id: <4684e223.D7HTFpC8n5nxOKCe%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 X-Fraunhofer-Email-Policy: accepted References: <18050.56174.10487.287158@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4682DDE7.55CD604A@nrubsig.org> <20070627220212.GL1496@Sun.COM> <4682E14B.8C474C8F@nrubsig.org> <20070627221651.GM1496@Sun.COM> <4682E609.B1183D9B@nrubsig.org> <4682E847.4080607@sun.com> <4682F5D4.4090602@sun.com> <46836987.mBl65w3KdVixW2IY%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <468421AA.9020909@sun.com> User-Agent: nail 11.22 3/20/05 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 29 Jun 2007 10:44:43.0490 (UTC) FILETIME=[80C96420:01C7BA3A] Status: RO Content-Length: 1867 Joseph Kowalski wrote: > >> Although 9 is still the "getopt" limit, we've already provided guidance > >> that 9 > >> can be better (mostly for prefixes - gootool-admin and such). We didn't > >> provide > >> > > > > Why do you believe that such a "getopt()" limit exists? > > > I'm not sure what you are asking. > > I tried to motivate why the upper limit of 9 exists. It comes from > developer conventions > bounded by the 14 character limit on the legacy SysV file system. Long > ago,... Far away,... The question has already been answered... there is no such limit. > Why the lower limit of 2? It seems that the people (driven by Kathy) > thought that 1 was > too low, but 2 was ok. I *suspect* that since that there were many > legacy 2 letter utility There is even one 1 letter legacy program "p" (a pager) which decided to use this name in 1982. I am still maintaining this program and I am not willing to change the name altough I today would never create a 1 letter program name. > There really isn't interesting to discuss here. The ARCs will decide if > the utility names > suggested by the project teams are appropriate. 2 or 3 or even 4 > character names for > non-legacy utilities would be under close scrutiny. Then again, so would > some FOSS > names like this_is_georges_utility_which_was_designed_while_drinking... > :-) X.org exists even thoug you would not be able to register it today. The name length for commands that have been created no earlier than in the past 10 years should not be less than 3. Jörg -- EMail:joerg@schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin js@cs.tu-berlin.de (uni) schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily From carlsonj@phorcys.east.sun.com Fri Jun 29 06:48:50 2007 Received: from newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (newsunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.245]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l5TDmogS010860 for ; Fri, 29 Jun 2007 06:48:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l5TDkLqZ036995; Fri, 29 Jun 2007 07:46:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JKE00J0ZGYCDH00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Fri, 29 Jun 2007 07:47:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com ([129.148.174.143]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JKE00BMCGYCC580@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Fri, 29 Jun 2007 07:47:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l5TDkxgC013980; Fri, 29 Jun 2007 09:46:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from carlsonj@localhost) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1/Submit) id l5TDkxD4013977; Fri, 29 Jun 2007 09:46:59 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 09:46:59 -0400 From: James Carlson Subject: Re: 2007/389 Netcat In Solaris In-reply-to: <20070628154509.00007b1c@localhost> To: Michael Hunter Cc: Gary Winiger , psarc-ext@sun.com, Vladimir.Kotal@sun.com Message-id: <18053.3411.188023.335521@gargle.gargle.HOWL> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: VM 7.01 under Emacs 21.3.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200706282111.l5SLBruc003577@marduk.eng.sun.com> <20070628141813.000020f4@localhost> <18052.9901.62787.209710@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20070628154509.00007b1c@localhost> Status: RO Content-Length: 2002 Michael Hunter writes: > On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 17:22:53 -0400 > James Carlson wrote: > > Snoop is quite a different beast from netcat. I'd compare netcat to > > telnet(1) before comparing it to snoop(1M). > > So the man page you put out says in its description: "I" was doing the comparing, not the man page. The tool just opens TCP and UDP sockets based on command line arguments. In its most basic form, it serves as a way to manipulate sockets from the command line, and logically 'connect' them to pipes. Sure, you can do all sorts of things with it. Some of them look like "debug." Some of them look like "workarounds." Some look like "hackery." I don't think that's really the issue. Snoop is a fundamentally different beast. It opens raw device drivers and spews forth decoded packet representations. Netcat is nothing like that. I don't think a sane person would use snoop in a script that receives data on one port and relays it to another system on another port. That's probably _the_ most common use of netcat -- working around applications that have (say) the LDAP server configured on the wrong port. Netcat isn't really a network monitor application. > Not really different. But it does play up the debug/exploration > features of netcat which is how I use it and why I affinitized its > usage model with snoop. So Gary's question does make sense. There are > different usage models. Indeed. You can also use telnet(1) to debug sendmail. That doesn't make it a debug application either. > > % grep snoop /etc/security/exec_attr > > Network Management:suser:cmd:::/usr/sbin/snoop:uid=0 > > % > > *blush* I'd hate anybody to see whats in my shell history... Probably a lot of "sudo snoop ...", just like mine. ;-} -- James Carlson, Solaris Networking Sun Microsystems / 1 Network Drive 71.232W Vox +1 781 442 2084 MS UBUR02-212 / Burlington MA 01803-2757 42.496N Fax +1 781 442 1677 From carlsonj@phorcys.east.sun.com Fri Jun 29 06:52:35 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l5TDqYjU011006 for ; Fri, 29 Jun 2007 06:52:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l5TDojfP023000; Fri, 29 Jun 2007 14:50:48 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JKE00J0HH4LMJ00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Fri, 29 Jun 2007 06:50:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com ([129.148.174.143]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JKE00HHRH4J55A0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Fri, 29 Jun 2007 06:50:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l5TDoh8D014013; Fri, 29 Jun 2007 09:50:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from carlsonj@localhost) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1/Submit) id l5TDoguR014010; Fri, 29 Jun 2007 09:50:42 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 09:50:42 -0400 From: James Carlson Subject: Re: 2007/389 Netcat In Solaris In-reply-to: <46843264.3050406@sun.com> To: Vladimir Kotal Cc: Gary Winiger , psarc-ext@sun.com Message-id: <18053.3634.927760.888336@gargle.gargle.HOWL> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: VM 7.01 under Emacs 21.3.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200706282054.l5SKsRNL003533@marduk.eng.sun.com> <18052.8850.917897.912834@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <46843264.3050406@sun.com> Status: RO Content-Length: 928 Vladimir Kotal writes: > - nc -l [-46Ddkntuv] [-i interval] [-p port] [-T ToS] [hostname] [port] > + nc -l [-46Ddkntuv] [-i interval] [-T ToS] hostname port > > + nc -l [-46Ddkntuv] [-i interval] [-p port] [-T ToS] [port] > + Based on the examples you provided, I think you actually mean something like this: nc -l [-46Ddkntuv] [-i interval] [-T ToS] [hostname] port nc -l [-46Ddkntuv] [-i interval] [-T ToS] -p port (Unclear if that latter one has "[hostname]" on it, but it doesn't seem that it could logically have "[port]" given the -p usage.) In any event, I think this is getting into what's effectively code review for the man page, so we should probably work this offline. -- James Carlson, Solaris Networking Sun Microsystems / 1 Network Drive 71.232W Vox +1 781 442 2084 MS UBUR02-212 / Burlington MA 01803-2757 42.496N Fax +1 781 442 1677 From carlsonj@phorcys.east.sun.com Fri Jun 29 06:53:59 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l5TDrxd6011057 for ; Fri, 29 Jun 2007 06:53:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l5TDq5QQ023552; Fri, 29 Jun 2007 14:52:12 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JKE00J01H6YTR00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Fri, 29 Jun 2007 06:52:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com ([129.148.174.143]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JKE00H2NH6X55B0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Fri, 29 Jun 2007 06:52:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l5TDq8Dh014021; Fri, 29 Jun 2007 09:52:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from carlsonj@localhost) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1/Submit) id l5TDq8mp014018; Fri, 29 Jun 2007 09:52:08 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 09:52:08 -0400 From: James Carlson Subject: Re: 2007/389 Netcat In Solaris In-reply-to: <4CB513C3-8502-4B06-A37F-431D44B8D891@Sun.COM> To: Bart Blanquart Cc: Vladimir.Kotal@Sun.Com, psarc-ext@Sun.Com, Gary Winiger Message-id: <18053.3720.788031.114003@gargle.gargle.HOWL> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: VM 7.01 under Emacs 21.3.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200706282054.l5SKsRNL003533@marduk.eng.sun.com> <18052.8850.917897.912834@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4CB513C3-8502-4B06-A37F-431D44B8D891@Sun.COM> Status: RO Content-Length: 813 Bart Blanquart writes: > > It might make sense to have a "listen_on_netbios" script (or some > > such) that does "nc -lu -p 139", and then grant net_priv_addr to that > > script. > > It might be interesting to provide something along these lines in the > EXAMPLES and/or INETD CAPABILITIES sections of the man page (one with > a script and maybe one with an inetd manifest; to clarify both the > possible need for net_priv_addr and the recommended ways of going > about it). Agreed; having worked examples, including one that explains how you'd use it with RBAC, is a good idea. -- James Carlson, Solaris Networking Sun Microsystems / 1 Network Drive 71.232W Vox +1 781 442 2084 MS UBUR02-212 / Burlington MA 01803-2757 42.496N Fax +1 781 442 1677 From carlsonj@phorcys.east.sun.com Fri Jun 29 06:56:09 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l5TDu8Ui011404 for ; Fri, 29 Jun 2007 06:56:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l5TDsHpT024271; Fri, 29 Jun 2007 14:54:21 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JKE00J0FHAJZJ00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Fri, 29 Jun 2007 06:54:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com ([129.148.174.143]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JKE00HUTHAI55B0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Fri, 29 Jun 2007 06:54:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l5TDdI91013960; Fri, 29 Jun 2007 09:39:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from carlsonj@localhost) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1/Submit) id l5TDdHsP013957; Fri, 29 Jun 2007 09:39:17 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 09:39:17 -0400 From: James Carlson Subject: Re: 2007/389 Netcat In Solaris In-reply-to: <4684d143.FEapKtiqZrPWE41O%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> To: Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (Joerg Schilling) Cc: roland.mainz@nrubsig.org, jek3@sun.com, Vladimir.Kotal@sun.com, psarc-ext@sun.com Message-id: <18053.2949.862798.29261@gargle.gargle.HOWL> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: VM 7.01 under Emacs 21.3.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <18050.56174.10487.287158@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4682DDE7.55CD604A@nrubsig.org> <20070627220212.GL1496@Sun.COM> <4682E14B.8C474C8F@nrubsig.org> <18050.58453.154259.824654@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <46844193.5080500@sun.com> <46844835.5F586D94@nrubsig.org> <46847ADB.40506@sun.com> <4684d143.FEapKtiqZrPWE41O%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> Status: RO Content-Length: 2632 Joerg Schilling writes: > If you look at the 0x82 fdisk signature problem between Solaris and Linux, > where Linux did chose 0x82 for "Linux swap" ~ 3 months after Sun did chose the > same signature, the answer would be: publish eadly and often. For people who > ignore what happens outside their rooms, this does not help. Yes, these are all problems with an uncontrolled name space. It's not as though it's a new problem or even one that we can solve with any finality here. Even publishing early doesn't fix the problem. I think that disk partition issue is an illustrative example. The first real x86 support for Solaris showed up in 2.4, released in December 1994. This was after Linux 1.0, and well after the first Linux kernel releases. Who came first? I don't really know. I do know that it just doesn't matter. What matters is delivering systems that actually work. Thus, we simply changed our default from 0x82 to 0xBF, because waiting for Linux to change its swap ID based on arguments from us would simply be silly. It doesn't matter who chose what or when, and the problem is solved (albeit at some cost). In this case, we have a choice between installing as "nc" to be the same as nearly all other systems we can find that ship something comparable, or as "netcat" to avoid the ambiguity. Fortunately, and not surprisingly, it looks like we're not the first people on the planet to run into this particular problem. The nedit FAQ (http://www.nedit.org/faq/faq.txt) gives the recommended procedure as renaming the nedit client application to "ncl." See also: http://www.nedit.org/faq/sect_bugs.php#N1140 And the "Droplet" utility for nedit (used on Mac OS X) helpfully searches for ncl first before trying nc: http://www.nedit.org/niki/index.php/NEdit%20droplet I don't have many other systems available to test, but a quick web search shows: - Debian has "/usr/bin/nedit-nc" http://packages.debian.org/cgi-bin/search_contents.pl?searchmode=filelist&word=nedit&version=stable&arch=i386 - RedHat has "/usr/bin/nedit-client" http://rpmfind.net//linux/RPM/fedora/extras/5/i386/nedit-5.5-7.fc5.i386.html - FreeBSD has "/usr/bin/nclient" http://portsmon.freebsd.org/portoverview.py?category=editors&portname=nedit So, I don't think the reported problem actually exists. It's nedit that changes, and I believe the original proposal for /usr/bin/nc was correct. -- James Carlson, Solaris Networking Sun Microsystems / 1 Network Drive 71.232W Vox +1 781 442 2084 MS UBUR02-212 / Burlington MA 01803-2757 42.496N Fax +1 781 442 1677 From Michael.Hunter@sun.com Fri Jun 29 08:01:05 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l5TF14kS012835 for ; Fri, 29 Jun 2007 08:01:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l5TExA7N023151 for <@newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com:psarc-ext@sun.com>; Fri, 29 Jun 2007 22:59:17 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JKE0010KKAOGT00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Fri, 29 Jun 2007 08:59:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sca-es-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.43.133]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JKE00BOWKAOC1D0@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Fri, 29 Jun 2007 08:59:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from fe-sfbay-10.sun.com ([192.18.43.129]) by sca-es-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l5TExB7B001192 for ; Fri, 29 Jun 2007 07:59:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.fe-sfbay-10.sun.com by fe-sfbay-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0JKE00G01K88UR00@fe-sfbay-10.sun.com> (original mail from Michael.Hunter@Sun.COM) for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Fri, 29 Jun 2007 07:59:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sun.com ([10.7.251.174]) by fe-sfbay-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0JKE00GPSKAN3Y00@fe-sfbay-10.sun.com>; Fri, 29 Jun 2007 07:59:11 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 07:59:11 -0700 From: Michael Hunter Subject: Re: 2007/389 Netcat In Solaris In-reply-to: <18053.3411.188023.335521@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Sender: Michael.Hunter@sun.com To: James Carlson Cc: Gary Winiger , psarc-ext@sun.com, Vladimir.Kotal@sun.com Message-id: <20070629075911.00002364@localhost> Organization: SMI MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Claws Mail 2.9.2-csw (GTK+ 2.10.11; i386-pc-solaris2.8) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200706282111.l5SLBruc003577@marduk.eng.sun.com> <20070628141813.000020f4@localhost> <18052.9901.62787.209710@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20070628154509.00007b1c@localhost> <18053.3411.188023.335521@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Status: RO Content-Length: 1148 On Fri, 29 Jun 2007 09:46:59 -0400 James Carlson wrote: > Michael Hunter writes: > > On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 17:22:53 -0400 > > James Carlson wrote: > > > Snoop is quite a different beast from netcat. I'd compare netcat to > > > telnet(1) before comparing it to snoop(1M). > > > > So the man page you put out says in its description: > > "I" was doing the comparing, not the man page. Understood. You were comparing telent and netcat. I was comparing man pages from different implementations of netcat. [...] > Netcat isn't really a network monitor application. [...] I wasn't comparing its features. I was asserting that the sets of users who used snoop and nc have substantial overlap. Thus a similar RBAC model might make sense. In hindsight that is projecting my past uses of nc too strongly onto the user demographics. It was developed as a network debug/hack tool but I suspect you are right that there are more "scriptable telnet" types of users nowadays. My comment was in response to Gary's: > I just wasn't sure how much privilege might be expected by an admin user. mph From carlsonj@phorcys.east.sun.com Fri Jun 29 08:31:29 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l5TFVS9o012962 for ; Fri, 29 Jun 2007 08:31:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l5TFTdr4026091; Fri, 29 Jun 2007 16:29:40 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JKE00J05LPFGI00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Fri, 29 Jun 2007 08:29:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com ([129.148.174.143]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JKE00GNULPENN30@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Fri, 29 Jun 2007 08:29:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l5TFTbXc014439; Fri, 29 Jun 2007 11:29:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from carlsonj@localhost) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1/Submit) id l5TFTbcc014436; Fri, 29 Jun 2007 11:29:37 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 11:29:37 -0400 From: James Carlson Subject: Re: 2007/389 Netcat In Solaris In-reply-to: <20070629075911.00002364@localhost> To: Michael Hunter Cc: Gary Winiger , psarc-ext@sun.com, Vladimir.Kotal@sun.com Message-id: <18053.9569.647445.235669@gargle.gargle.HOWL> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: VM 7.01 under Emacs 21.3.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200706282111.l5SLBruc003577@marduk.eng.sun.com> <20070628141813.000020f4@localhost> <18052.9901.62787.209710@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20070628154509.00007b1c@localhost> <18053.3411.188023.335521@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20070629075911.00002364@localhost> Status: RO Content-Length: 1758 Michael Hunter writes: > I wasn't comparing its features. I was asserting that the sets of > users who used snoop and nc have substantial overlap. Thus a similar > RBAC model might make sense. In hindsight that is projecting my past > uses of nc too strongly onto the user demographics. It was developed > as a network debug/hack tool but I suspect you are right that there are > more "scriptable telnet" types of users nowadays. Unless you're binding a port used by broadcasts or multicasts, a fairly narrow usage case, I think you're really not going to get too far in your "network debug" effort with a tool that just uses sockets, given the normal binding semantics, and even with privilege. It doesn't look like the right droid. > My comment was in response to Gary's: > > > I just wasn't sure how much privilege might be expected by an admin user. I find it hard to envision the case in which allowing a given class of user (or usage) the ability to _bind_ all and arbitrary privileged local ports is the right answer here. That'd be the implication of having netcat in some RBAC profile. That's why I asked for clarification. If we had a more fine-grained RBAC -- one that (say) allowed each port in each transport to be controlled individually, so that "web provider" users could use netcat to bind TCP port 80 but nothing else -- then there might be a decent usage case, but that's not what it does. The simpler solution, I think, is to bump the problem up a level, and let tools based on netcat control access. -- James Carlson, Solaris Networking Sun Microsystems / 1 Network Drive 71.232W Vox +1 781 442 2084 MS UBUR02-212 / Burlington MA 01803-2757 42.496N Fax +1 781 442 1677 From Michael.Hunter@sun.com Fri Jun 29 08:36:17 2007 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l5TFaHl6013046 for ; Fri, 29 Jun 2007 08:36:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l5TFYUe0026909 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:psarc-ext@sun.com>; Fri, 29 Jun 2007 08:34:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JKE0060TLXJCB00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Fri, 29 Jun 2007 08:34:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sca-es-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.43.133]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JKE00KKELXHKS50@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Fri, 29 Jun 2007 08:34:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fe-sfbay-10.sun.com ([192.18.43.129]) by sca-es-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l5TFYTeH004310 for ; Fri, 29 Jun 2007 08:34:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.fe-sfbay-10.sun.com by fe-sfbay-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0JKE00401LR4T500@fe-sfbay-10.sun.com> (original mail from Michael.Hunter@Sun.COM) for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Fri, 29 Jun 2007 08:34:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sun.com ([10.7.251.174]) by fe-sfbay-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0JKE00GXLLXG3YE0@fe-sfbay-10.sun.com>; Fri, 29 Jun 2007 08:34:28 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 08:34:28 -0700 From: Michael Hunter Subject: Re: 2007/389 Netcat In Solaris In-reply-to: <18053.9569.647445.235669@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Sender: Michael.Hunter@sun.com To: James Carlson Cc: Gary Winiger , psarc-ext@sun.com, Vladimir.Kotal@sun.com Message-id: <20070629083428.00001f3f@localhost> Organization: SMI MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Claws Mail 2.9.2-csw (GTK+ 2.10.11; i386-pc-solaris2.8) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200706282111.l5SLBruc003577@marduk.eng.sun.com> <20070628141813.000020f4@localhost> <18052.9901.62787.209710@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20070628154509.00007b1c@localhost> <18053.3411.188023.335521@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20070629075911.00002364@localhost> <18053.9569.647445.235669@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Status: RO Content-Length: 762 On Fri, 29 Jun 2007 11:29:37 -0400 James Carlson wrote: > Michael Hunter writes: [...] > If we had a more fine-grained RBAC -- one that (say) allowed each port > in each transport to be controlled individually, so that "web > provider" users could use netcat to bind TCP port 80 but nothing else > -- then there might be a decent usage case, but that's not what it > does. The simpler solution, I think, is to bump the problem up a > level, and let tools based on netcat control access. yes. mph > > -- > James Carlson, Solaris Networking > Sun Microsystems / 1 Network Drive 71.232W Vox +1 781 442 2084 > MS UBUR02-212 / Burlington MA 01803-2757 42.496N Fax +1 781 442 1677 From carlsonj@phorcys.east.sun.com Wed Aug 1 10:31:48 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l71HVl0p024316 for ; Wed, 1 Aug 2007 10:31:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l71HTCO8024488; Thu, 2 Aug 2007 01:29:30 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JM30000NV928X00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 01 Aug 2007 11:29:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com ([129.148.174.143]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JM3005V3V91XZE0@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 01 Aug 2007 11:29:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l71HTP6A025269; Wed, 01 Aug 2007 13:29:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from carlsonj@localhost) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1/Submit) id l71HTP8l025266; Wed, 01 Aug 2007 13:29:25 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2007 13:29:24 -0400 From: James Carlson Subject: Re: 2007/389 Netcat In Solaris In-reply-to: <18050.56174.10487.287158@gargle.gargle.HOWL> To: psarc-ext@sun.com Cc: vladimir.kotal@sun.com Message-id: <18096.49908.948935.484914@gargle.gargle.HOWL> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: VM 7.01 under Emacs 21.3.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <18050.56174.10487.287158@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Status: RO Content-Length: 493 This fast-track was approved during ARC business back on 07/11/2007. I've updated the draft man page in the case directory to reflect the known behavior of the utility. We expect that the man page will be proofed by a writer and not need further architectural review. -- James Carlson, Solaris Networking Sun Microsystems / 1 Network Drive 71.232W Vox +1 781 442 2084 MS UBUR02-212 / Burlington MA 01803-2757 42.496N Fax +1 781 442 1677