From dwc@sac.sfbay.sun.com Fri Jun 29 14:59:26 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l5TLxPwf023164 for ; Fri, 29 Jun 2007 14:59:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l5TLvbhb009922; Fri, 29 Jun 2007 22:57:38 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JKF008033O17700@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Fri, 29 Jun 2007 15:57:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sfbaymail2sca.sfbay.sun.com ([129.145.155.42]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JKF000KG3O07450@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Fri, 29 Jun 2007 15:57:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sac.sfbay.sun.com (sac.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.226.132]) by sfbaymail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.10/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l5TLvaX7026383; Fri, 29 Jun 2007 14:57:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sac.sfbay.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l5TLxLIn023159; Fri, 29 Jun 2007 14:59:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from dwc@localhost) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/Submit) id l5TLxLbT023155; Fri, 29 Jun 2007 14:59:21 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 14:59:21 -0700 (PDT) From: Don Cragun Subject: ls(1) new command line options '-/' and '-%': CIFS system attributes support [PSARC/2007/394 FastTrack timeout 07/11/2007] To: PSARC-ext@sun.com Cc: Basabi.Bhattacharya@sun.com Message-id: <200706292159.l5TLxLbT023155@sac.sfbay.sun.com> Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 Status: RO Content-Length: 8401 Template Version: @(#)sac_nextcase 1.63 06/14/07 SMI This information is Copyright 2007 Sun Microsystems 1. Introduction 1.1. Project/Component Working Name: ls(1) new command line options '-/' and '-%': CIFS system attributes support 1.2. Name of Document Author/Supplier: Author: Basabi Bhattacharya 1.3 Date of This Document: 29 June, 2007 4. Technical Description 1. Introduction 1.1. Project/Component Working Name: ls(1) new command line options '-/' and '-%': CIFS system attributes support 1.2. Name of Document Author/Supplier: Author: Basabi Bhattacharya 1.3 Date of This Document: June 29, 2007 4. Technical Description This case adds two new command line options '-/' and '-%' to ls(1) to support the extended system attributes added in PSARC case 2007/315. I.Overview The Extensible Attribute Interfaces (PSARC/2007/315) project introduced a number of extended system file attributes. The system utilities need to be able to display and manipulate these new attributes. This fasttrack case adds two new options ("-/ flag" and "-% timestamp") to the ls utility to display the new system attributes and to allow the file creation timestamp attribute to be used (as well as the atime, ctime, and mtime timestamps) for sorting the list of files displayed. The option names '/' and '%' were chosen because all of the alphabetic characters are already in use by the set of utilities that need to be updated to support extended system attributes and the numeric options didn't seem appropriate this use. The project team, therefore, asks for a waiver to CLIP Guideline #3 ("Each option name should be a single alphanumeric character (the alnum character classification) from the portable character set. ...") so the use of these option names can be consistent across all of the affected utilities. II. Release Binding The project team requests a minor release binding. III. Details When "-/ verbosity_flag" is specified, a single line of output will follow the normal -l output using the format: "\t{%s}\n", list of attributes If the verbosity_flag option argument is 'v' (verbose), the state of each boolean system attribute associated with the file will be displayed in a comma separated list using the attribute name. For each boolean extended system attribute, if the attribute is set, the attribute name will be in the list; if the attribute is not set, "no" immediately followed by the attribute name will be in the list. With the attributes listed in PSARC/2007/315 on a ZFS filesystem, an example second line of output would be: {archive,hidden,readonly,system,appendonly,nonodump,immutable,noav_modified,opaque,noav_quarantined,settable,nounlink} If the verbosity_flag option argument is 'c' (compact), the state of each boolean system attribute associated with the file will be displayed as a single character (a unique alphabetic character if the attribute is set, or '-' if the attribute is not set). With the attributes listed in PSARC/2007/315 on a ZFS filesystem, an example second line of output (corresponding to the same attribute settings shown in the verbose form above) would be: {AHRSa-i-o-tu} If there are no extended system attributes associated with a file, the list of attributes will be an empty string: {} If the user doesn't have permission to access extended attributes for a file, a dignostic message will be written to stderr and the list of attributes will be replaced with a single '?' character: {?} When "-% timestamp" is specified, the corresponding timestamp from the file is displayed (in long listing formats) or used to determine sort order of files listed. A timestamp operand is specifed even though only one new timestamp (file creation time) was added by PSARC/2007/315 for two reasons. First, the project team has had requests to have ls provide a way to display all time stamps associated with a file. And, second, because it is likely that other new timestamps will be added later. (A retention [file can't be deleted until] timestamp and a deletion [file will be removed by the system at this time] timestamp have already been suggested as possible future timestamp attributes.) Given the shortage of available option characters for ls now, we want to be able to use this one option character for all future timestamp requests. To make this easier (and with a minor hope that -c and -u could be reclaimed for other uses in a few decades ;-} ), timestamp strings are also specified to allow the last file access timestamp (atime) (currently specified by -u), last file modification timestamp (mtime) (the default), and last file status modification time (ctime) (currently specified by -c) to be specified as well as the new file creation timestamp (crtime). If any of these are specified, the timestamp specified will be used for sorting (such as when -t is specified) or displayed as the timestamp on long format listings. If the timestamp option argument is "all", all timestamps associated with each file listed will be displayed on separate lines following the line containing the file's name. Specifying "-% all" will not affect which timestamp is used for sorting nor for display on the first line in long format listing. By default, the format of all of these time stamps will match the output used on long listing format timestamps when -e is specified. If -E is specified on the command line, the format including nanosecond timestamp resolution will be used for all of the timestamps displayed. See the diff-marked, updated ls(1) man page in this case's materials directory for a detailed description of these options including the boolean extended system attribute names and their single character abbreviations. IV. Interfaces IV.1 Exported Interfaces ______________________________________ | Interface |Classification| |_____________________|______________| |/usr/bin/ls | | |/usr/xpg4/bin/ls | Committed | |/usr/xpg6/bin/ls | | |_____________________|______________| IV.2 Imported Interfaces _________________________________________________________________ | Interface | Classification | Comments | |================================================================| | _PC_SATTR_ENABLED | Consolidation | [f]pathconf() variables | | _PC_SATTR_EXISTS | Private | from PSARC/2007/315. | |_____________________+________________+_________________________| | fgetattr() | Consolidation | From PSARC/2007/315. | | | Private | | |_____________________+________________+_________________________| | | | From the project team | | | | that is implementing | | | | PSARC/2007/315. Used | | | | to get the system | | attr_to_option() | Consolidation | attribute names, their | | name_to_attr() | Private | single character | | | | abbreviations, and the | | | | order in which they | | | | should be displayed. | |_____________________+________________+_________________________| All of these are mentioned here only to register use of these interfaces. Note, however, that PSARC/2007/315 case materials don't make clear the interface taxonomy for fgetattr() and other functions listed on the fgetattr(3C) man page. (The last specification (spec.final.txt) says that all of the functions listed on the fgetattr(3C) man page including fgetattr() are consolidation private; fgetattr.3c (in the same directory) says that all of the functions described there are Evolving). 5. References PSARC/1999/645 Command Line Interface (CLIP) PSARC/2006/715 CIFS Service PSARC/2007/315 Extensible Attribute Interfaces CR 6565581 The command ls(1) needs to support additional file system attributes proposed in PSARC/2007/315. 6. Resources and Schedule 6.4. Steering Committee requested information 6.4.1. Consolidation C-team Name: ON 6.5. ARC review type: FastTrack 6.6. ARC Exposure: open From Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de Fri Jun 29 15:12:32 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l5TMCU75023481 for ; Fri, 29 Jun 2007 15:12:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l5TMAS51020898; Sat, 30 Jun 2007 06:10:40 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JKF0090149K3I00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Fri, 29 Jun 2007 16:10:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sca-ea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.43.24]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JKF000SJ49K7250@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Fri, 29 Jun 2007 16:10:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay24.sun.com (ip192-12-251-74.block6.us.syntegra.com [192.12.251.74]) by sca-ea-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l5TMAWR4019008; Fri, 29 Jun 2007 22:10:32 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mms25es.sun.com ([150.143.232.94] [150.143.232.94]) by relay24.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-342734; Fri, 29 Jun 2007 22:10:31 +0000 (Z) Received: from mms21bas.mms.us.syntegra.com (mms21bas.mms.us.syntegra.com [192.12.251.10]) by mms25es.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-2108551; Fri, 29 Jun 2007 22:10:31 +0000 (Z) Received: from mailgw1.fraunhofer.de ([153.96.1.18] [153.96.1.18]) by relay25.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-3034389; Fri, 29 Jun 2007 22:10:31 +0000 (Z) Received: from mailgw1.fraunhofer.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailgw1.fraunhofer.de (8.13.5+/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l5TMAUee005841; Sat, 30 Jun 2007 00:10:30 +0200 (CEST) Received: from pluto.fokus.fraunhofer.de (pluto.fokus.fraunhofer.de [195.37.77.164]) by mailgw1.fraunhofer.de (8.13.5+/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l5TMATp8005801 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sat, 30 Jun 2007 00:10:29 +0200 (CEST) Received: from EXCHSRV.fokus.fraunhofer.de (bohr [10.147.9.231]) by pluto.fokus.fraunhofer.de (8.13.7/8.13.7) with SMTP id l5TMATMV028829; Sat, 30 Jun 2007 00:10:29 +0200 (MEST) Received: from burner ([10.147.65.166]) by EXCHSRV.fokus.fraunhofer.de with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Sat, 30 Jun 2007 00:10:29 +0200 Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2007 00:08:28 +0200 From: Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (Joerg Schilling) Subject: Re: ls(1) new command line options '-/' and '-%': CIFS system attributes support [PSARC/2007/394 FastTrack timeout 07/11/2007] In-reply-to: <200706292159.l5TLxLbT023155@sac.sfbay.sun.com> To: PSARC-ext@Sun.COM, don.cragun@Sun.COM Cc: Basabi.Bhattacharya@Sun.COM Message-id: <468582dc.TSCWC8v+em54LyHk%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 X-Fraunhofer-Email-Policy: accepted References: <200706292159.l5TLxLbT023155@sac.sfbay.sun.com> User-Agent: nail 11.22 3/20/05 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 29 Jun 2007 22:10:29.0000 (UTC) FILETIME=[4D6BF880:01C7BA9A] Status: RO Content-Length: 2061 Don Cragun wrote: > > Template Version: @(#)sac_nextcase 1.63 06/14/07 SMI > This information is Copyright 2007 Sun Microsystems > 1. Introduction > 1.1. Project/Component Working Name: > ls(1) new command line options '-/' and '-%': CIFS system attributes support > 1.2. Name of Document Author/Supplier: > Author: Basabi Bhattacharya > 1.3 Date of This Document: > 29 June, 2007 > 4. Technical Description > 1. Introduction > 1.1. Project/Component Working Name: > ls(1) new command line options '-/' and '-%': CIFS system attributes > support > 1.2. Name of Document Author/Supplier: > Author: Basabi Bhattacharya > 1.3 Date of This Document: > June 29, 2007 > > 4. Technical Description > > This case adds two new command line options '-/' and '-%' to ls(1) to > support the extended system attributes added in PSARC case 2007/315. > > I.Overview > > The Extensible Attribute Interfaces (PSARC/2007/315) project introduced > a number of extended system file attributes. The system utilities need > to be able to display and manipulate these new attributes. > > This fasttrack case adds two new options ("-/ flag" and "-% timestamp") > to the ls utility to display the new system attributes and to allow the > file creation timestamp attribute to be used (as well as the atime, > ctime, and mtime timestamps) for sorting the list of files displayed. The option -/ is already used by star: -/ don't strip leading '/'s from file names I believe that special characters like '/' should be use for similar tasks in order to make it easier to memorize options. I propose to use either a different character or to introduce long options, e.g. by switching from getopt() to getargs(). Jörg -- EMail:joerg@schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin js@cs.tu-berlin.de (uni) schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily From jgh@wizmail.org Sun Jul 1 08:56:31 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l61FuUf7022762 for ; Sun, 1 Jul 2007 08:56:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l61Fsgpi026240 for <@sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-ext@sun.com>; Sun, 1 Jul 2007 23:54:43 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JKI00403C75QZ00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Sun, 01 Jul 2007 08:54:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sca-ea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.43.25]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JKI009PIC75TYC0@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Sun, 01 Jul 2007 08:54:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay22.sun.com (relay22.sun.com [192.12.251.34] (may be forged)) by sca-ea-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l61FsXOS003959 for ; Sun, 01 Jul 2007 15:54:41 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mms22es.sun.com ([150.143.232.34] [150.143.232.34]) by relay22.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-464375 for PSARC-ext@sun.com; Sun, 01 Jul 2007 15:54:32 +0000 (Z) Received: from mms24bas.mms.us.syntegra.com (mms24bas.mms.us.syntegra.com [192.12.251.70]) by mms22es.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-2260029 for PSARC-ext@sun.com; Sun, 01 Jul 2007 15:54:32 +0000 (Z) Received: from wizmail.org ([217.146.107.12] [217.146.107.12]) by relay24.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-5108455 for PSARC-ext@sun.com; Sun, 01 Jul 2007 15:54:32 +0000 (Z) Received: from ebony.jgh.adsl.wizards.co.uk ([217.146.123.59]) (from_AS 16353) by wizmail.org with esmtpsa (TLSv1:DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67) id 1I51kd-0006UK-9n for PSARC-ext@sun.com (return-path ) ; Sun, 01 Jul 2007 15:54:15 +0000 Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2007 16:54:28 +0100 From: Jeremy Harris Subject: Re: ls(1) new command line options '-/' and '-%': CIFS system attributes support [PSARC/2007/394 FastTrack timeout 07/11/2007] In-reply-to: <200706292159.l5TLxLbT023155@sac.sfbay.sun.com> To: PSARC-ext@sun.com Message-id: <4687CE34.5020803@wizmail.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200706292159.l5TLxLbT023155@sac.sfbay.sun.com> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux x86_64; en-US; rv:1.8.0.12) Gecko/20070530 Fedora/1.5.0.12-1.fc6 pango-text Thunderbird/1.5.0.12 Mnenhy/0.7.5.0 Status: RO Content-Length: 910 Don Cragun wrote: > 4. Technical Description > > This case adds two new command line options '-/' and '-%' to ls(1) to > support the extended system attributes added in PSARC case 2007/315. > > I.Overview > > The Extensible Attribute Interfaces (PSARC/2007/315) project introduced > a number of extended system file attributes. The system utilities need > to be able to display and manipulate these new attributes. > > This fasttrack case adds two new options ("-/ flag" and "-% timestamp") > to the ls utility to display the new system attributes and to allow the > file creation timestamp attribute to be used (as well as the atime, > ctime, and mtime timestamps) for sorting the list of files displayed. Linux seems to have a new command in this region: "lsattr". Ref: http://linux.about.com/library/cmd/blcmdl1_lsattr.htm Was this approach considered? Do we risk incompatibility? - Jeremy Harris From Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de Tue Jul 3 08:57:40 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l63FvdVu010670 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2007 08:57:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l63FtPK1019193; Tue, 3 Jul 2007 23:55:29 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JKM00C011KEHY00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 08:55:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.98.43]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JKM00ASL1KDTS80@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 08:55:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay42i.sun.com ([192.5.209.72]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l63Flqld001914; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 15:55:25 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mms49es.sun.com ([160.41.221.233] [160.41.221.233]) by relay42i.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-359; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 15:55:25 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay43i.sun.com ([192.5.209.74] [192.5.209.74]) by mms49es.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-2692261; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 15:55:25 +0000 (Z) Received: from mailgw1.fraunhofer.de ([153.96.1.18] [153.96.1.18]) by relay4i.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-857; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 15:55:24 +0000 (Z) Received: from mailgw1.fraunhofer.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailgw1.fraunhofer.de (8.13.5+/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l63FtNTb009324; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 17:55:23 +0200 (CEST) Received: from pluto.fokus.fraunhofer.de (pluto.fokus.fraunhofer.de [195.37.77.164]) by mailgw1.fraunhofer.de (8.13.5+/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l63FtMa7009239 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Tue, 03 Jul 2007 17:55:23 +0200 (CEST) Received: from EXCHSRV.fokus.fraunhofer.de (bohr [10.147.9.231]) by pluto.fokus.fraunhofer.de (8.13.7/8.13.7) with SMTP id l63FtMTE019208; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 17:55:22 +0200 (MEST) Received: from burner ([10.147.65.166]) by EXCHSRV.fokus.fraunhofer.de with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Tue, 03 Jul 2007 17:55:22 +0200 Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2007 17:53:17 +0200 From: Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (Joerg Schilling) Subject: Re: ls(1) new command line options '-/' and '-%': CIFS system attributes support [PSARC/2007/394 FastTrack timeout 07/11/2007] In-reply-to: <4688ECC2.4050509@Sun.COM> To: Darren.Moffat@sun.com, Basabi.Bhattacharya@sun.com Cc: PSARC-ext@sun.com, don.cragun@sun.com Message-id: <468a70ed.LmmfZMLTAGOepASV%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT Received-SPF: None (mailgw1.fraunhofer.de: domain of Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de does not designate permitted sender hosts) receiver=mailgw1.fraunhofer.de; client-ip=195.37.77.164; envelope-from=; helo=pluto.fokus.fraunhofer.de; x-agent=smf-spf; X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 X-Fraunhofer-Email-Policy: accepted References: <200706292159.l5TLxLbT023155@sac.sfbay.sun.com> <468582dc.TSCWC8v+em54LyHk%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <4688ECC2.4050509@Sun.COM> User-Agent: nail 11.22 3/20/05 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Jul 2007 15:55:22.0585 (UTC) FILETIME=[90349490:01C7BD8A] Status: RO Content-Length: 3763 Darren J Moffat wrote: > Joerg Schilling wrote: > > The option -/ is already used by star: > > > > -/ don't strip leading '/'s from file names > > > > I believe that special characters like '/' should be use for similar tasks > > in order to make it easier to memorize options. > > Joerg: > > there are already HUGE clashes of option letters between ls(1) and > tar(1) and what they mean Darren, these clashes are historical and cannot be avoided. I believe that today, when most programs implement a lot of options, we need to take much more care about usability of the resulting system. I see more than 1000 programs in /usr/bin and if every program implements only 25 short options, then I would need to remember 25,000 different options - many of them most likely contradicting between programs. In such an enviroment, short options become unusable while long options make it easier to remember the meaning and even could allow to use similar options for similar behavior. Let me try to explain the POSIX standard for this case. As POSIX does not define a new standard from scratch but just documents existing practice, there are many irregularities in the CLI definitions for the various utilities from the POSIX standard. There are e.g. programs that define something like '-Fc' and others that define '-F c'. The first does not like to see a space between the option and the parameter, the second needs a space. The related standard that writes down the rules for utilities is here: http://www.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/009695399/basedefs/xbd_chap12.html Let me explain the wording to avoid confusion: - "must" or "shall" defines a "law", you are not allowed to ignore such a definition. - "should" defines a "rule", something that is desired but not 100% mandatory. The word "shall" is used mainly to write down that some applications are defined by '-Fc' option definitions while the POSIX standard likes to see '-F c'. A utility that has '-Fc' in the documentation _needs_ to implement '-Fc' and '-F c' in order to be POSIX compliant. All other CLI basic definitions are rather "rules" and thus may be ignored if this cannot be avoided. In order to be able to judge on a new option, it may make sense to check how many of the POSIX rules would be ignored if it would be implemented. Let me first start with something unrelated but probably of interest. The POSIX CLI guidlines say that an option should be a single letter and should be behind the "-" delimiter. - Implementing an option '-foo' would ignore one of the rules from the POSIX CLI guidlines. - Implementing an option '--foo' would ignore two of the rules from the POSIX CLI guidlines. The options in this proposal are clearly vendor unique extensions, so POSIX would like them to be hidden behind '-W something', where "someting" is a single argument to the application. - Implementing '-/ v' ignores one of the rules from the POSIX CLI guidlines (not using -W for vendoer unique extensions). - Implementing something like '-attr' would also only ignore one of the rules from the POSIX CLI guidlines (option names should be single letters). Similar conclusions apply to the -% proposal. For this reason, I would like to know why not a long option was chosen instead. I don't like to see -/ nor -% in ls(1) and am not willing to aprove this case. It seems that you Darren would also prefer a different solution. Jörg -- EMail:joerg@schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin js@cs.tu-berlin.de (uni) schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily From Darren.Moffat@sun.com Tue Jul 3 09:03:29 2007 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l63G3TvM011287 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2007 09:03:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l63G1YxV027703; Tue, 3 Jul 2007 09:01:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JKM0080B1UM9Z00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 09:01:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com ([129.156.42.5]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JKM005971UKGC30@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 09:01:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d1-emea-10.sun.com (d1-emea-10.sun.com [192.18.2.120]) by gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l63G1VJH029344; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 16:01:31 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-emea-10.sun.com by d1-emea-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JKM003011RM6600@d1-emea-10.sun.com> (original mail from Darren.Moffat@Sun.COM); Tue, 03 Jul 2007 17:01:31 +0100 (BST) Received: from [129.156.173.21] by d1-emea-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JKM007UP1UJVB00@d1-emea-10.sun.com>; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 17:01:31 +0100 (BST) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2007 17:01:31 +0100 From: Darren J Moffat Subject: Re: ls(1) new command line options '-/' and '-%': CIFS system attributes support [PSARC/2007/394 FastTrack timeout 07/11/2007] In-reply-to: <468a70ed.LmmfZMLTAGOepASV%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> Sender: Darren.Moffat@sun.com To: Joerg Schilling Cc: Basabi.Bhattacharya@sun.com, PSARC-ext@sun.com, don.cragun@sun.com Message-id: <468A72DB.6010900@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200706292159.l5TLxLbT023155@sac.sfbay.sun.com> <468582dc.TSCWC8v+em54LyHk%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <4688ECC2.4050509@Sun.COM> <468a70ed.LmmfZMLTAGOepASV%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.0 (X11/20070605) Status: RO Content-Length: 628 Joerg Schilling wrote: > I don't like to see -/ nor -% in ls(1) and am not willing to aprove this case. At this time you are not a PSARC member so you don't have the ability to not approve it. Someone who is a PSARC member may choose to agree with you and take the decision to derail the case. While I am a PSARC member and I'm would have preferred something different than -/ and -% I don't feel strongly enough to derail this case. I think long options may actually be a worse outcome if it is done just for these two new bits of functionality without considering all of the other ls(1) usage. -- Darren J Moffat From dwc@spartan.eng.sun.com Tue Jul 3 09:47:20 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l63GlJNI012301 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2007 09:47:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l63GjKGC001814 for <@sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-ext@sun.com>; Wed, 4 Jul 2007 00:45:29 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JKM00E033VRPR00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Tue, 03 Jul 2007 09:45:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from spartan.SFBay.Sun.COM ([129.146.226.64]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JKM00D4X3VRVA40@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Tue, 03 Jul 2007 09:45:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from spartan.SFBay.Sun.COM (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spartan.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l63GjR2w025129; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 09:45:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from dwc@localhost) by spartan.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/Submit) id l63GjRKG025128; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 09:45:27 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2007 09:45:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Don Cragun Subject: Re: ls(1) new command line options '-/' and '-%': CIFS system attributes support [PSARC/2007/394 FastTrack timeout 07/11/2007] To: PSARC-ext@sun.com, jgh@wizmail.org Message-id: <200707031645.l63GjRKG025128@spartan.SFBay.Sun.COM> Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 Status: RO Content-Length: 1264 >Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2007 16:54:28 +0100 >From: Jeremy Harris > >Don Cragun wrote: >> 4. Technical Description >> ... ... ... >> This fasttrack case adds two new options ("-/ flag" and "-% timestamp") >> to the ls utility to display the new system attributes and to allow the >> file creation timestamp attribute to be used (as well as the atime, >> ctime, and mtime timestamps) for sorting the list of files displayed. > >Linux seems to have a new command in this region: "lsattr". >Ref: http://linux.about.com/library/cmd/blcmdl1_lsattr.htm > >Was this approach considered? Do we risk incompatibility? The project team considered this approach and decided that ls is the appropriate utility to list file attributes whether those attributes be one of the three original timestamps, the file mode bits, or ACLs already handled by ls or the new creation time timestamp and the new extended system attributes. There is no incompatibility. If lsattr proves to be popular, there is no reason why this version of ls and lsattr cannot coexist. And, the output from any ls command in a script today is unchanged by this proposal. The ls output changes only if one of the new options appears when the command is invoked. - Don > >- Jeremy Harris From Garrett.Damore@Sun.COM Tue Jul 3 09:51:49 2007 Received: from newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (newsunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.245]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l63Gpmwk012452 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2007 09:51:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l63GnGOp060655; Tue, 3 Jul 2007 10:49:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JKM00A0343BYV00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 10:49:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sca-es-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.43.132]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JKM00835435PL20@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 10:49:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from fe-sfbay-09.sun.com ([192.18.43.129]) by sca-es-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l63GnrMs005769; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 09:49:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.fe-sfbay-09.sun.com by fe-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0JKM0020140I6100@fe-sfbay-09.sun.com> (original mail from Garrett.Damore@Sun.COM); Tue, 03 Jul 2007 09:49:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.251.21] ([76.174.83.55]) by fe-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0JKM00EBB434N6E0@fe-sfbay-09.sun.com>; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 09:49:53 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2007 09:47:10 -0700 From: "Garrett D'Amore" Subject: Re: ls(1) new command line options '-/' and '-%': CIFS system attributes support [PSARC/2007/394 FastTrack timeout 07/11/2007] In-reply-to: <468A72DB.6010900@Sun.COM> Sender: Garrett.Damore@Sun.COM To: Darren J Moffat Cc: Joerg Schilling , Basabi.Bhattacharya@Sun.COM, PSARC-ext@Sun.COM, don.cragun@Sun.COM Message-id: <468A7D8E.50507@sun.com> Organization: Sun Microsystems MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200706292159.l5TLxLbT023155@sac.sfbay.sun.com> <468582dc.TSCWC8v+em54LyHk%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <4688ECC2.4050509@Sun.COM> <468a70ed.LmmfZMLTAGOepASV%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <468A72DB.6010900@Sun.COM> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.0 (X11/20070605) Status: RO Content-Length: 1069 Darren J Moffat wrote: > Joerg Schilling wrote: >> I don't like to see -/ nor -% in ls(1) and am not willing to aprove >> this case. > > At this time you are not a PSARC member so you don't have the ability > to not approve it. Sure he does. He just doesn't have the authority to *approve it*. So his statement here means nothing. :-) > Someone who is a PSARC member may choose to agree with you and take > the decision to derail the case. While I am a PSARC member and I'm > would have preferred something different than -/ and -% I don't feel > strongly enough to derail this case. > > I think long options may actually be a worse outcome if it is done > just for these two new bits of functionality without considering all > of the other ls(1) usage. Agreed. I would ask the project team to consider what options GNU ls uses, and try to avoid clashes within that much more narrowly defined namespace, though. Especially as it is somewhat likely that some users will choose to use GNU ls (color-ls) as their default ls program. -- Garrett From dwc@spartan.eng.sun.com Tue Jul 3 09:55:59 2007 Received: from newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (newsunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.245]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l63GtxwV013020 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2007 09:55:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l63GrODA061469; Tue, 3 Jul 2007 10:53:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JKM00B2N4A8TD00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 09:54:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from spartan.SFBay.Sun.COM ([129.146.226.64]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JKM005234A6GHA0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 09:54:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from spartan.SFBay.Sun.COM (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spartan.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l63Gs5sD025157; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 09:54:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from dwc@localhost) by spartan.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/Submit) id l63Gs5Pe025156; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 09:54:05 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2007 09:54:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Don Cragun Subject: Re: ls(1) new command line options '-/' and '-%': CIFS system attributes support [PSARC/2007/394 FastTrack timeout 07/11/2007] To: Basabi.Bhattacharya@sun.com Cc: PSARC-ext@sun.com Message-id: <200707031654.l63Gs5Pe025156@spartan.SFBay.Sun.COM> Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 Status: RO Content-Length: 1189 >Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2007 13:17:06 +0100 >From: Darren J Moffat > >Project team: > >I really like that the project team chose to extend ls(1) rather than >doing what other systems did by introducing an additional tool, >particularly given that ls(1) can fully display acls now. Thanks. > >Was consideration given to just extending the meaning of -V so that it >also displayed system attribute info as well as the verbose ACL ? Yes. The project team chose not to do that because it could break scripts that are using ls to process ACLs. > >The syntax "-/" seems strange to me but I guess no stranger than what we >already have with "-@". When I saw the title of the case and this new >option I first match this to "dir /p" from MS-DOS era. > >As an aside had I been choosing a non alphanumeric char for this I would >have picked '$' since it has to me some connection to system from other >OSes that I've used. But as I said just an aside. The project team considered -$, but quickly abandonded it due to the special handling users have to perform to keep '$' from being evaluated by the shells as a variable expansion request. > >-- >Darren J Moffat From Darren.Moffat@sun.com Tue Jul 3 10:11:48 2007 Received: from newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (newsunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.245]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l63HBlDf013610 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2007 10:11:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l63H9EcZ000100; Tue, 3 Jul 2007 11:09:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JKM00C0F50LW200@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 10:09:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com ([129.156.42.5]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JKM005TM50EGHB0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 10:09:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d1-emea-09.sun.com (d1-emea-09.sun.com [192.18.2.119]) by gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l63H9o2j003993; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 17:09:50 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-emea-09.sun.com by d1-emea-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JKM009014Z1Q500@d1-emea-09.sun.com> (original mail from Darren.Moffat@Sun.COM); Tue, 03 Jul 2007 18:09:50 +0100 (BST) Received: from [129.156.173.21] by d1-emea-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JKM0061K50DB510@d1-emea-09.sun.com>; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 18:09:49 +0100 (BST) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2007 18:09:49 +0100 From: Darren J Moffat Subject: Re: ls(1) new command line options '-/' and '-%': CIFS system attributes support [PSARC/2007/394 FastTrack timeout 07/11/2007] In-reply-to: <200707031654.l63Gs5Pe025156@spartan.SFBay.Sun.COM> Sender: Darren.Moffat@sun.com To: Don Cragun Cc: Basabi.Bhattacharya@sun.com, PSARC-ext@sun.com Message-id: <468A82DD.1030507@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200707031654.l63Gs5Pe025156@spartan.SFBay.Sun.COM> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.0 (X11/20070605) Status: RO Content-Length: 1308 Don Cragun wrote: >> Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2007 13:17:06 +0100 >> From: Darren J Moffat >> >> Project team: >> >> I really like that the project team chose to extend ls(1) rather than >> doing what other systems did by introducing an additional tool, >> particularly given that ls(1) can fully display acls now. > > Thanks. > >> Was consideration given to just extending the meaning of -V so that it >> also displayed system attribute info as well as the verbose ACL ? > > Yes. The project team chose not to do that because it could break > scripts that are using ls to process ACLs. Is the syntax of the -v an -V ACL display defined in PSARC/2006/043 actually intended to be and given a taxonomy that allows for parsing ? That arc case doesn't actually say what stability the output has. Also given that it is really still quite new and currently only applies to ZFS and NFSv4 anyway (for -V) I think the risk of extending it is minimal and would be my preferred outcome. One has to know what the underlying filesystem actually is to know what output style you will get from -v and -V (UFS,TMPFS,NFSv3 will give very different output than NFSv4 and ZFS) means that parsing the output of ls(1) is very complex and IMO unlikely to be reliable anyway. -- Darren J Moffat From Nicolas.Williams@sun.com Tue Jul 3 10:23:31 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l63HNUVJ013893 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2007 10:23:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l63HLQ2D011533; Wed, 4 Jul 2007 01:21:35 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JKM00G035JZMO00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 10:21:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM ([129.153.128.104]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JKM00DUW5JYVAB0@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 10:21:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l63HKRxj010227; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 12:20:27 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from nw141292@localhost) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1/Submit) id l63HKRtJ010226; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 12:20:27 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2007 12:20:27 -0500 From: Nicolas Williams Subject: Re: ls(1) new command line options '-/' and '-%': CIFS system attributes support [PSARC/2007/394 FastTrack timeout 07/11/2007] In-reply-to: <468A82DD.1030507@Sun.COM> To: Darren J Moffat Cc: Don Cragun , PSARC-ext@sun.com, Basabi.Bhattacharya@sun.com Message-id: <20070703172026.GA1425@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200707031654.l63Gs5Pe025156@spartan.SFBay.Sun.COM> <468A82DD.1030507@Sun.COM> X-Authentication-warning: binky.Central.Sun.COM: nw141292 set sender to Nicolas.Williams@sun.com using -f User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.7i Status: RO Content-Length: 572 On Tue, Jul 03, 2007 at 06:09:49PM +0100, Darren J Moffat wrote: > One has to know what the underlying filesystem actually is to know what > output style you will get from -v and -V (UFS,TMPFS,NFSv3 will give very > different output than NFSv4 and ZFS) means that parsing the output of > ls(1) is very complex and IMO unlikely to be reliable anyway. OT: This is why a new command would be good, but I agree that as the current reigning human-oriented interface for listing directories and file attributes all these extensions need to be applied to ls(1). From Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de Tue Jul 3 10:25:14 2007 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l63HPEOg014068 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2007 10:25:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l63HNMjP013228; Tue, 3 Jul 2007 10:23:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JKM00G1L5MZOO00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 10:23:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sca-ea-mail-4.sun.com ([192.18.43.22]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JKM00DLK5MYVDC0@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 10:23:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay23.sun.com (relay23.sun.com [192.12.251.54] (may be forged)) by sca-ea-mail-4.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l63HNL98018596; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 17:23:21 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mms23es.sun.com ([150.143.232.54] [150.143.232.54]) by relay23.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-22191; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 17:23:17 +0000 (Z) Received: from mms25bas.mms.us.syntegra.com (mms25bas.mms.us.syntegra.com [192.12.251.90]) by mms23es.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-1236729; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 17:23:17 +0000 (Z) Received: from mailgw1.fraunhofer.de ([153.96.1.18] [153.96.1.18]) by relay21.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-11473217; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 17:23:16 +0000 (Z) Received: from mailgw1.fraunhofer.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailgw1.fraunhofer.de (8.13.5+/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l63HNFXq016897; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 19:23:15 +0200 (CEST) Received: from pluto.fokus.fraunhofer.de (pluto.fokus.fraunhofer.de [195.37.77.164]) by mailgw1.fraunhofer.de (8.13.5+/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l63HNE4K016840 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Tue, 03 Jul 2007 19:23:15 +0200 (CEST) Received: from EXCHSRV.fokus.fraunhofer.de (bohr [10.147.9.231]) by pluto.fokus.fraunhofer.de (8.13.7/8.13.7) with SMTP id l63HNEOV022466; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 19:23:14 +0200 (MEST) Received: from burner ([10.147.65.166]) by EXCHSRV.fokus.fraunhofer.de with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Tue, 03 Jul 2007 19:23:14 +0200 Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2007 19:21:09 +0200 From: Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (Joerg Schilling) Subject: Re: ls(1) new command line options '-/' and '-%': CIFS system attributes support [PSARC/2007/394 FastTrack timeout 07/11/2007] In-reply-to: <200707031654.l63Gs5Pe025156@spartan.SFBay.Sun.COM> To: don.cragun@sun.com, Basabi.Bhattacharya@sun.com Cc: PSARC-ext@sun.com Message-id: <468a8585.wjS0R78WijLZ2C82%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT Received-SPF: None (mailgw1.fraunhofer.de: domain of Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de does not designate permitted sender hosts) receiver=mailgw1.fraunhofer.de; client-ip=195.37.77.164; envelope-from=; helo=pluto.fokus.fraunhofer.de; x-agent=smf-spf; X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 X-Fraunhofer-Email-Policy: accepted References: <200707031654.l63Gs5Pe025156@spartan.SFBay.Sun.COM> User-Agent: nail 11.22 3/20/05 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Jul 2007 17:23:14.0098 (UTC) FILETIME=[D645A120:01C7BD96] Status: RO Content-Length: 657 Don Cragun wrote: > >The syntax "-/" seems strange to me but I guess no stranger than what we > >already have with "-@". When I saw the title of the case and this new > >option I first match this to "dir /p" from MS-DOS era. > > > >As an aside had I been choosing a non alphanumeric char for this I would > >have picked '$' since it has to me some connection to system from other > >OSes that I've used. But as I said just an aside. > > The project team considered -$, but quickly abandonded it due to the > special handling users have to perform to keep '$' from being evaluated > by the shells as a variable expansion request. From the other replies it seems to be obvious that -% is in the same state as it Status: RO nees quoting by at least 2 shells. Jörg -- EMail:joerg@schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin js@cs.tu-berlin.de (uni) schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily From Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de Tue Jul 3 10:28:00 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l63HRxPE014254 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2007 10:28:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l63HPxFm012862; Wed, 4 Jul 2007 01:26:04 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JKM00E2T5RF7600@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 10:26:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.98.31]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JKM005EB5RDGGC0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 10:26:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay22.sun.com (relay22.sun.com [192.12.251.34] (may be forged)) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l63HQ1OJ008549; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 17:26:01 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mms25es.sun.com ([150.143.232.94] [150.143.232.94]) by relay22.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-711698; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 17:26:01 +0000 (Z) Received: from mms21bas.mms.us.syntegra.com (mms21bas.mms.us.syntegra.com [192.12.251.10]) by mms25es.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-1022722; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 17:26:01 +0000 (Z) Received: from mailgw12.fraunhofer.de ([153.96.1.24] [153.96.1.24]) by relay25.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-87988; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 17:26:00 +0000 (Z) Received: from mailgw12.fraunhofer.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailgw12.fraunhofer.de (8.13.5+/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l63HPxVf022968; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 19:25:59 +0200 (CEST) Received: from pluto.fokus.fraunhofer.de (pluto.fokus.fraunhofer.de [195.37.77.164]) by mailgw12.fraunhofer.de (8.13.5+/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l63HPxH0022955 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Tue, 03 Jul 2007 19:25:59 +0200 (CEST) Received: from EXCHSRV.fokus.fraunhofer.de (bohr [10.147.9.231]) by pluto.fokus.fraunhofer.de (8.13.7/8.13.7) with SMTP id l63HPxjQ022547; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 19:25:59 +0200 (MEST) Received: from burner ([10.147.65.166]) by EXCHSRV.fokus.fraunhofer.de with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Tue, 03 Jul 2007 19:25:58 +0200 Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2007 19:23:54 +0200 From: Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (Joerg Schilling) Subject: Re: ls(1) new command line options '-/' and '-%': CIFS system attributes support [PSARC/2007/394 FastTrack timeout 07/11/2007] In-reply-to: <468A82DD.1030507@Sun.COM> To: don.cragun@sun.com, Darren.Moffat@sun.com Cc: PSARC-ext@sun.com, Basabi.Bhattacharya@sun.com Message-id: <468a862a.XPDk4yuLdx77j4pL%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT Received-SPF: None (mailgw12.fraunhofer.de: domain of Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de does not designate permitted sender hosts) receiver=mailgw12.fraunhofer.de; client-ip=195.37.77.164; envelope-from=; helo=pluto.fokus.fraunhofer.de; x-agent=smf-spf; X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 X-Fraunhofer-Email-Policy: accepted References: <200707031654.l63Gs5Pe025156@spartan.SFBay.Sun.COM> <468A82DD.1030507@Sun.COM> User-Agent: nail 11.22 3/20/05 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Jul 2007 17:25:58.0930 (UTC) FILETIME=[3884FF20:01C7BD97] Status: RO Content-Length: 1290 Darren J Moffat wrote: > > Yes. The project team chose not to do that because it could break > > scripts that are using ls to process ACLs. > > Is the syntax of the -v an -V ACL display defined in PSARC/2006/043 > actually intended to be and given a taxonomy that allows for parsing ? > That arc case doesn't actually say what stability the output has. > > Also given that it is really still quite new and currently only applies > to ZFS and NFSv4 anyway (for -V) I think the risk of extending it is > minimal and would be my preferred outcome. > > One has to know what the underlying filesystem actually is to know what > output style you will get from -v and -V (UFS,TMPFS,NFSv3 will give very > different output than NFSv4 and ZFS) means that parsing the output of > ls(1) is very complex and IMO unlikely to be reliable anyway. If I understand you correctly, you like to propose to add an optional argument to -V. This is something POSIX does not like. Jörg -- EMail:joerg@schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin js@cs.tu-berlin.de (uni) schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily From casper@holland.sun.com Tue Jul 3 10:30:07 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l63HU6aw014313 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2007 10:30:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l63HSFhs004523 for <@sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-ext@sun.com>; Tue, 3 Jul 2007 18:28:16 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JKM00G0D5V3VW00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Tue, 03 Jul 2007 10:28:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dm-holland-02.uk.sun.com ([129.156.101.225]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JKM00DNT5V1VDD0@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Tue, 03 Jul 2007 10:28:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from holland (room101.Holland.Sun.COM [129.159.130.93]) by dm-holland-02.uk.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l63HS8jN017057; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 18:28:08 +0100 (BST) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2007 19:28:08 +0200 From: Casper.Dik@sun.com Subject: Re: ls(1) new command line options '-/' and '-%': CIFS system attributes support [PSARC/2007/394 FastTrack timeout 07/11/2007] In-reply-to: <468a8585.wjS0R78WijLZ2C82%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> Sender: casper@holland.sun.com To: Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (Joerg Schilling) Cc: don.cragun@sun.com, Basabi.Bhattacharya@sun.com, PSARC-ext@sun.com Message-id: <200707031728.l63HS8jN017057@dm-holland-02.uk.sun.com> Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200707031654.l63Gs5Pe025156@spartan.SFBay.Sun.COM> <468a8585.wjS0R78WijLZ2C82%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> Status: RO Content-Length: 861 >Don Cragun wrote: > >> >The syntax "-/" seems strange to me but I guess no stranger than what we >> >already have with "-@". When I saw the title of the case and this new >> >option I first match this to "dir /p" from MS-DOS era. >> > >> >As an aside had I been choosing a non alphanumeric char for this I would >> >have picked '$' since it has to me some connection to system from other >> >OSes that I've used. But as I said just an aside. >> >> The project team considered -$, but quickly abandonded it due to the >> special handling users have to perform to keep '$' from being evaluated >> by the shells as a variable expansion request. > >>From the other replies it seems to be obvious that -% is in the same state as it >nees quoting by at least 2 shells. Which shells? (sh/ ksh, tcsh, bash, zsh all worked for me) Casper From Nicolas.Williams@sun.com Tue Jul 3 10:33:51 2007 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l63HXo9w014454 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2007 10:33:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l63HW0bm017485; Tue, 3 Jul 2007 10:32:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JKM00E0L61CK500@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 10:32:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM ([129.153.128.104]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JKM005IA619GGD0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 10:31:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l63HUo4x010260; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 12:30:50 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from nw141292@localhost) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1/Submit) id l63HUk16010259; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 12:30:46 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2007 12:30:46 -0500 From: Nicolas Williams Subject: Re: ls(1) new command line options '-/' and '-%': CIFS system attributes support [PSARC/2007/394 FastTrack timeout 07/11/2007] In-reply-to: <468a8585.wjS0R78WijLZ2C82%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> To: Joerg Schilling Cc: don.cragun@sun.com, Basabi.Bhattacharya@sun.com, PSARC-ext@sun.com Message-id: <20070703173046.GB1425@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200707031654.l63Gs5Pe025156@spartan.SFBay.Sun.COM> <468a8585.wjS0R78WijLZ2C82%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> X-Authentication-warning: binky.Central.Sun.COM: nw141292 set sender to Nicolas.Williams@sun.com using -f User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.7i Status: RO Content-Length: 1232 On Tue, Jul 03, 2007 at 07:21:09PM +0200, Joerg Schilling wrote: > Don Cragun wrote: > > > >The syntax "-/" seems strange to me but I guess no stranger than what we > > >already have with "-@". When I saw the title of the case and this new > > >option I first match this to "dir /p" from MS-DOS era. > > > > > >As an aside had I been choosing a non alphanumeric char for this I would > > >have picked '$' since it has to me some connection to system from other > > >OSes that I've used. But as I said just an aside. > > > > The project team considered -$, but quickly abandonded it due to the > > special handling users have to perform to keep '$' from being evaluated > > by the shells as a variable expansion request. > > From the other replies it seems to be obvious that -% is in the same state as it > nees quoting by at least 2 shells. Neither -$ nor -% need quoting if followed by whitespace, not in any shell that I use anyways, but if you try -$altr then things break. Which shell uses % in such a way? Also, @, ! and + are special in KSH as well, when followed by an open parenthesis (they're not the only ones, of course, but the others, ? and *, are special by their lonesomes). Nico -- From Darren.Moffat@Sun.COM Tue Jul 3 10:40:22 2007 Received: from newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (newsunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.245]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l63HeMxe014474 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2007 10:40:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l63HbnYg006788; Tue, 3 Jul 2007 11:37:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JKM00E0B6C7F100@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 11:38:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com ([129.156.42.5]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JKM008MH6C6PO50@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 11:38:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from d1-emea-10.sun.com (d1-emea-10.sun.com [192.18.2.120]) by gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l63HcTHj005300; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 17:38:29 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-emea-10.sun.com by d1-emea-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JKM00E016AYHO00@d1-emea-10.sun.com> (original mail from Darren.Moffat@Sun.COM); Tue, 03 Jul 2007 18:38:29 +0100 (BST) Received: from [129.156.173.21] by d1-emea-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JKM0070C6C4VB10@d1-emea-10.sun.com>; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 18:38:29 +0100 (BST) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2007 18:38:28 +0100 From: Darren J Moffat Subject: Re: ls(1) new command line options '-/' and '-%': CIFS system attributes support [PSARC/2007/394 FastTrack timeout 07/11/2007] In-reply-to: <468a8585.wjS0R78WijLZ2C82%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> Sender: Darren.Moffat@Sun.COM To: Joerg Schilling Cc: don.cragun@Sun.COM, Basabi.Bhattacharya@Sun.COM, PSARC-ext@Sun.COM Message-id: <468A8994.6080104@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200707031654.l63Gs5Pe025156@spartan.SFBay.Sun.COM> <468a8585.wjS0R78WijLZ2C82%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.0 (X11/20070605) Status: RO Content-Length: 930 Joerg Schilling wrote: > Don Cragun wrote: > >>> The syntax "-/" seems strange to me but I guess no stranger than what we >>> already have with "-@". When I saw the title of the case and this new >>> option I first match this to "dir /p" from MS-DOS era. >>> >>> As an aside had I been choosing a non alphanumeric char for this I would >>> have picked '$' since it has to me some connection to system from other >>> OSes that I've used. But as I said just an aside. >> The project team considered -$, but quickly abandonded it due to the >> special handling users have to perform to keep '$' from being evaluated >> by the shells as a variable expansion request. > > From the other replies it seems to be obvious that -% is in the same state as it > nees quoting by at least 2 shells. Which two shells currently in Solaris Express or other OpenSolaris distributions are those ? -- Darren J Moffat From Darren.Moffat@sun.com Tue Jul 3 10:43:44 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l63Hhh4o014514 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2007 10:43:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l63HfdqX017305; Wed, 4 Jul 2007 01:41:51 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JKM00H016HQFW00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 10:41:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com ([129.156.42.6]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JKM00HR16HP8F00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 10:41:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d1-emea-09.sun.com ([192.18.2.119]) by gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l63Hfm7p025261; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 17:41:48 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-emea-09.sun.com by d1-emea-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JKM002016DSYS00@d1-emea-09.sun.com> (original mail from Darren.Moffat@Sun.COM); Tue, 03 Jul 2007 18:41:48 +0100 (BST) Received: from [129.156.173.21] by d1-emea-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JKM0069H6HNBB10@d1-emea-09.sun.com>; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 18:41:48 +0100 (BST) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2007 18:41:47 +0100 From: Darren J Moffat Subject: Re: ls(1) new command line options '-/' and '-%': CIFS system attributes support [PSARC/2007/394 FastTrack timeout 07/11/2007] In-reply-to: <468a862a.XPDk4yuLdx77j4pL%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> Sender: Darren.Moffat@sun.com To: Joerg Schilling Cc: don.cragun@sun.com, PSARC-ext@sun.com, Basabi.Bhattacharya@sun.com Message-id: <468A8A5B.3020207@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200707031654.l63Gs5Pe025156@spartan.SFBay.Sun.COM> <468A82DD.1030507@Sun.COM> <468a862a.XPDk4yuLdx77j4pL%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.0 (X11/20070605) Status: RO Content-Length: 1482 Joerg Schilling wrote: > Darren J Moffat wrote: > >>> Yes. The project team chose not to do that because it could break >>> scripts that are using ls to process ACLs. >> Is the syntax of the -v an -V ACL display defined in PSARC/2006/043 >> actually intended to be and given a taxonomy that allows for parsing ? >> That arc case doesn't actually say what stability the output has. >> >> Also given that it is really still quite new and currently only applies >> to ZFS and NFSv4 anyway (for -V) I think the risk of extending it is >> minimal and would be my preferred outcome. >> >> One has to know what the underlying filesystem actually is to know what >> output style you will get from -v and -V (UFS,TMPFS,NFSv3 will give very >> different output than NFSv4 and ZFS) means that parsing the output of >> ls(1) is very complex and IMO unlikely to be reliable anyway. > > If I understand you correctly, you like to propose to add an optional argument > to -V. This is something POSIX does not like. No that is not what I'm proposing. I'm proposing that the output of -V be changed to include information on extended attributes in addition to ACLs when they exist for files. I'm suggesting that this is possible since I don't believe the output of -v and -V is really parsable anyway but I can't find an ARC case that states what the taxonomy of the output is (the options and what they do are Committed (nee Stable)). -- Darren J Moffat From Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de Tue Jul 3 10:49:35 2007 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l63HnYWA014536 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2007 10:49:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l63HlhC1019040; Tue, 3 Jul 2007 10:47:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JKM00F056RJKI00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 10:47:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com ([192.18.98.36]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JKM00FH96RG0Y00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 10:47:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay41i.sun.com ([192.5.209.70]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l63HPLO4014128; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 17:47:40 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mms48es.sun.com ([160.41.221.231] [160.41.221.231]) by relay41i.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-13654; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 17:47:39 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay41i.sun.com ([192.5.209.70] [192.5.209.70]) by mms48es.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-1812880; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 17:47:39 +0000 (Z) Received: from mailgw11.fraunhofer.de ([153.96.1.23] [153.96.1.23]) by relay4i.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-53193; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 17:47:39 +0000 (Z) Received: from mailgw11.fraunhofer.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailgw11.fraunhofer.de (8.13.5+/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l63Hlc5j012900; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 19:47:38 +0200 (MEST) Received: from pluto.fokus.fraunhofer.de (pluto.fokus.fraunhofer.de [195.37.77.164]) by mailgw11.fraunhofer.de (8.13.5+/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l63Hlbw6012882 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Tue, 03 Jul 2007 19:47:38 +0200 (MEST) Received: from EXCHSRV.fokus.fraunhofer.de (bohr [10.147.9.231]) by pluto.fokus.fraunhofer.de (8.13.7/8.13.7) with SMTP id l63HlbID023969; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 19:47:37 +0200 (MEST) Received: from burner ([10.147.65.166]) by EXCHSRV.fokus.fraunhofer.de with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Tue, 03 Jul 2007 19:47:37 +0200 Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2007 19:45:33 +0200 From: Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (Joerg Schilling) Subject: Re: ls(1) new command line options '-/' and '-%': CIFS system attributes support [PSARC/2007/394 FastTrack timeout 07/11/2007] In-reply-to: <200707031728.l63HS8jN017057@dm-holland-02.uk.sun.com> To: Casper.Dik@sun.com Cc: PSARC-ext@sun.com, don.cragun@sun.com, Basabi.Bhattacharya@sun.com Message-id: <468a8b3d.XHlGxH9jskUMvu7J%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT Received-SPF: None (mailgw11.fraunhofer.de: domain of Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de does not designate permitted sender hosts) receiver=mailgw11.fraunhofer.de; client-ip=195.37.77.164; envelope-from=; helo=pluto.fokus.fraunhofer.de; x-agent=smf-spf; X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 X-Fraunhofer-Email-Policy: accepted References: <200707031654.l63Gs5Pe025156@spartan.SFBay.Sun.COM> <468a8585.wjS0R78WijLZ2C82%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <200707031728.l63HS8jN017057@dm-holland-02.uk.sun.com> User-Agent: nail 11.22 3/20/05 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Jul 2007 17:47:37.0776 (UTC) FILETIME=[3EB12B00:01C7BD9A] Status: RO Content-Length: 1316 Casper.Dik@sun.com wrote: > > >Don Cragun wrote: > > > >> >The syntax "-/" seems strange to me but I guess no stranger than what we > >> >already have with "-@". When I saw the title of the case and this new > >> >option I first match this to "dir /p" from MS-DOS era. > >> > > >> >As an aside had I been choosing a non alphanumeric char for this I would > >> >have picked '$' since it has to me some connection to system from other > >> >OSes that I've used. But as I said just an aside. > >> > >> The project team considered -$, but quickly abandonded it due to the > >> special handling users have to perform to keep '$' from being evaluated > >> by the shells as a variable expansion request. > > > >From the other replies it seems to be obvious that -% is in the same state as it > >nees quoting by at least 2 shells. > > Which shells? > > (sh/ ksh, tcsh, bash, zsh all worked for me) My bsh needs quoting and there was another mail from a person who did report a similar problem. Jörg -- EMail:joerg@schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin js@cs.tu-berlin.de (uni) schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily From dwc@spartan.eng.sun.com Tue Jul 3 11:10:11 2007 Received: from newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (newsunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.245]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l63IABG5015183 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2007 11:10:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l63I7aTG013961; Tue, 3 Jul 2007 12:07:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JKM00H157PX0E00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 11:08:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from spartan.SFBay.Sun.COM ([129.146.226.64]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JKM00FNL7PV0T10@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 11:08:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from spartan.SFBay.Sun.COM (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spartan.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l63I8JBc025302; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 11:08:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from dwc@localhost) by spartan.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/Submit) id l63I8IPl025301; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 11:08:18 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2007 11:08:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Don Cragun Subject: Re: ls(1) new command line options '-/' and '-%': CIFS system attributes support [PSARC/2007/394 FastTrack timeout 07/11/2007] To: Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de Cc: Basabi.Bhattacharya@sun.com, PSARC-ext@sun.com Message-id: <200707031808.l63I8IPl025301@spartan.SFBay.Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 Status: RO Content-Length: 5405 >Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2007 17:53:17 +0200 >From: Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (Joerg Schilling) > >Darren J Moffat wrote: > >> Joerg Schilling wrote: >> > The option -/ is already used by star: >> > >> > -/ don't strip leading '/'s from file names >> > >> > I believe that special characters like '/' should be use for similar tasks >> > in order to make it easier to memorize options. This is true for all options, not just those using "special" option characters. As you have already pointed out, there are lots of options and too few available option characters to make single character options unique. So, we do our best to use consistent option characters for "similar", "related" Solaris utilities. >> >> Joerg: >> >> there are already HUGE clashes of option letters between ls(1) and >> tar(1) and what they mean > >Darren, these clashes are historical and cannot be avoided. I believe that >today, when most programs implement a lot of options, we need to take much more >care about usability of the resulting system. I see more than 1000 programs in >/usr/bin and if every program implements only 25 short options, then I would >need to remember 25,000 different options - many of them most likely >contradicting between programs. In such an enviroment, short options become >unusable while long options make it easier to remember the meaning and even >could allow to use similar options for similar behavior. Fortunately, the vast majority of Solaris utilities have much less than 25 option letters in use. > >Let me try to explain the POSIX standard for this case. As POSIX does not >define a new standard from scratch but just documents existing practice, there >are many irregularities in the CLI definitions for the various utilities from >the POSIX standard. There are e.g. programs that define something like '-Fc' >and others that define '-F c'. The first does not like to see a space between >the option and the parameter, the second needs a space. The related standard >that writes down the rules for utilities is here: > You don't need to explain the POSIX standard for me. >http://www.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/009695399/basedefs/xbd_chap12.html > >Let me explain the wording to avoid confusion: > >- "must" or "shall" defines a "law", you are not allowed to ignore > such a definition. > >- "should" defines a "rule", something that is desired but not 100% > mandatory. > >The word "shall" is used mainly to write down that some applications >are defined by '-Fc' option definitions while the POSIX standard likes >to see '-F c'. A utility that has '-Fc' in the documentation _needs_ to >implement '-Fc' and '-F c' in order to be POSIX compliant. This is totall irrelevant here. The "-/ verbosity_flag" and "-% timestamp" options fully support the Utility Syntax Guidelines except (as pointed out in the case submission) guideline #3 (which says that option characters "should" be alphanumeric character from the portable character set. The -/ and -% option arguments are shown in the synopsis as separate arguments as suggested by USG #6. But, "-/ c" and "-/c", "-/ v" and "-/v", "-% crtime" and "-%crtime", and "-% all" and "-%all" are all accepted as suggested by the POSIX/SUS Utility Argument Syntax point 2. As suggested by USG #7, -/ and -% option arguments are not optional. > >All other CLI basic definitions are rather "rules" and thus may be ignored if >this cannot be avoided. > >In order to be able to judge on a new option, it may make sense to check how >many of the POSIX rules would be ignored if it would be implemented. > >Let me first start with something unrelated but probably of interest. >The POSIX CLI guidlines say that an option should be a single letter and >should be behind the "-" delimiter. > >- Implementing an option '-foo' would ignore one of the rules from > the POSIX CLI guidlines. > >- Implementing an option '--foo' would ignore two of the rules from > the POSIX CLI guidlines. > >The options in this proposal are clearly vendor unique extensions, so POSIX >would like them to be hidden behind '-W something', where "someting" is a >single argument to the application. You're grossly overstating what the POSIX authors would like here. The POSIX standard reserves the -W option for vendor specific extensions and promises that it will never standardize an option using "W" as the option character. The POSIX standard never suggests that all vendor extensions should be implemented as -W "something". > >- Implementing '-/ v' ignores one of the rules from the POSIX CLI > guidlines (not using -W for vendoer unique extensions). > >- Implementing something like '-attr' would also only ignore one of > the rules from the POSIX CLI guidlines (option names should be single > letters). > >Similar conclusions apply to the -% proposal. For this reason, I would >like to know why not a long option was chosen instead. The PSARC CLIP case (1999/645) guideline #18 says that when long options are used, each long option should have a single character option equivalent and each single character option should have a long option equivalent. So, converting to long options does not get rid of the problem. - Don > >I don't like to see -/ nor -% in ls(1) and am not willing to aprove this case. > >It seems that you Darren would also prefer a different solution. > > >Jörg From dwc@spartan.eng.sun.com Tue Jul 3 11:14:42 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l63IEfbK015243 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2007 11:14:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l63ICkjg019493; Tue, 3 Jul 2007 19:12:48 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JKM00H1J7XBD400@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 11:12:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from spartan.SFBay.Sun.COM ([129.146.226.64]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JKM00FYH7XB0Y10@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 11:12:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from spartan.SFBay.Sun.COM (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spartan.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l63ICkul025319; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 11:12:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from dwc@localhost) by spartan.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/Submit) id l63ICksm025318; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 11:12:46 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2007 11:12:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Don Cragun Subject: Re: ls(1) new command line options '-/' and '-%': CIFS system attributes support [PSARC/2007/394 FastTrack timeout 07/11/2007] To: Garrett.Damore@sun.com Cc: Basabi.Bhattacharya@sun.com, PSARC-ext@sun.com Message-id: <200707031812.l63ICksm025318@spartan.SFBay.Sun.COM> Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 Status: RO Content-Length: 509 >Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2007 09:47:10 -0700 >From: "Garrett D'Amore" ... ... ... >I would ask the project team to consider what options GNU ls uses, and >try to avoid clashes within that much more narrowly defined namespace, >though. Especially as it is somewhat likely that some users will choose >to use GNU ls (color-ls) as their default ls program. > The project team did consider GNU ls. There is no conflict with -/ and -% as proposed in this case. - Don > > -- Garrett From Garrett.Damore@sun.com Tue Jul 3 11:21:02 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l63IL1lW015265 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2007 11:21:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l63IJ1aM028866; Wed, 4 Jul 2007 02:19:09 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JKM00H0H87XH000@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 12:19:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sca-es-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.43.133]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JKM008LX87WPR70@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 12:19:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from fe-sfbay-09.sun.com ([192.18.43.129]) by sca-es-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l63IJ8Wa027527; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 11:19:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.fe-sfbay-09.sun.com by fe-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0JKM00D0184ZL700@fe-sfbay-09.sun.com> (original mail from Garrett.Damore@Sun.COM); Tue, 03 Jul 2007 11:19:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.251.21] ([76.174.83.55]) by fe-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0JKM005U587V0930@fe-sfbay-09.sun.com>; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 11:19:08 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2007 11:16:26 -0700 From: "Garrett D'Amore" Subject: Re: ls(1) new command line options '-/' and '-%': CIFS system attributes support [PSARC/2007/394 FastTrack timeout 07/11/2007] In-reply-to: <200707031812.l63ICksm025318@spartan.SFBay.Sun.COM> Sender: Garrett.Damore@sun.com To: Don Cragun Cc: Basabi.Bhattacharya@sun.com, PSARC-ext@sun.com Message-id: <468A927A.6070307@sun.com> Organization: Sun Microsystems MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200707031812.l63ICksm025318@spartan.SFBay.Sun.COM> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.0 (X11/20070605) Status: RO Content-Length: 867 Don Cragun wrote: >> Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2007 09:47:10 -0700 >> From: "Garrett D'Amore" >> > ... ... ... > >> I would ask the project team to consider what options GNU ls uses, and >> try to avoid clashes within that much more narrowly defined namespace, >> though. Especially as it is somewhat likely that some users will choose >> to use GNU ls (color-ls) as their default ls program. >> >> > > The project team did consider GNU ls. There is no conflict with -/ and > -% as proposed in this case. > Thank you. At some point in the future, will it be logical that these extensions could become part of GNU ls? Has anyone approached the GNU folks for input? I'd hate to wind up with future incompatibilities between GNU ls and Solaris ls if it could easily be avoided by having communication now? -- Garrett From dwc@spartan.eng.sun.com Tue Jul 3 11:57:50 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l63IvnOK016172 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2007 11:57:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l63ItrSl010247; Wed, 4 Jul 2007 02:55:55 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JKM00K059X4TP00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 11:55:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from spartan.SFBay.Sun.COM ([129.146.226.64]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JKM00HVX9X48FC0@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 11:55:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from spartan.SFBay.Sun.COM (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spartan.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l63ItqCq025410; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 11:55:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from dwc@localhost) by spartan.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/Submit) id l63Itq4t025409; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 11:55:52 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2007 11:55:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Don Cragun Subject: Re: ls(1) new command line options '-/' and '-%': CIFS system attributes support [PSARC/2007/394 FastTrack timeout 07/11/2007] To: Darren.Moffat@sun.com Cc: Basabi.Bhattacharya@sun.com, PSARC-ext@sun.com Message-id: <200707031855.l63Itq4t025409@spartan.SFBay.Sun.COM> Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 Status: RO Content-Length: 1847 >Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2007 18:09:49 +0100 >From: Darren J Moffat > >Don Cragun wrote: >>> Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2007 13:17:06 +0100 >>> From: Darren J Moffat >>> >>> Was consideration given to just extending the meaning of -V so that it >>> also displayed system attribute info as well as the verbose ACL ? >> >> Yes. The project team chose not to do that because it could break >> scripts that are using ls to process ACLs. > >Is the syntax of the -v an -V ACL display defined in PSARC/2006/043 >actually intended to be and given a taxonomy that allows for parsing ? >That arc case doesn't actually say what stability the output has. > The project team for this case noted that all of the output produced by ls before PSARC/2006/043 was approved was standard, stable, or committed. Since 2006/043 didn't say otherwise, the it was assumed the output added by that case was also committed. If the ARC would like to amend 2006/043 to make the -v and -V output be clearly intended only for human readable uses, I believe the project team would be willing to add -/c output to -v and -V and drop the -/ option. But, there is still the question of how to specify compact versus verbose extended system attribute output format. Would you also want to add an option argument to -v and -V at this point? >Also given that it is really still quite new and currently only applies >to ZFS and NFSv4 anyway (for -V) I think the risk of extending it is >minimal and would be my preferred outcome. > >One has to know what the underlying filesystem actually is to know what >output style you will get from -v and -V (UFS,TMPFS,NFSv3 will give very >different output than NFSv4 and ZFS) means that parsing the output of >ls(1) is very complex and IMO unlikely to be reliable anyway. > >-- >Darren J Moffat From dwc@spartan.eng.sun.com Tue Jul 3 12:11:57 2007 Received: from newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (newsunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.245]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l63JBvWc016570 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2007 12:11:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l63J9Jbr026367; Tue, 3 Jul 2007 13:09:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JKM00L1FAKT4J00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 13:10:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from spartan.SFBay.Sun.COM ([129.146.226.64]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JKM0083QAKSPWA0@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 13:10:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from spartan.SFBay.Sun.COM (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spartan.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l63JA4iW025446; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 12:10:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from dwc@localhost) by spartan.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/Submit) id l63JA4Wf025445; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 12:10:04 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2007 12:10:04 -0700 (PDT) From: Don Cragun Subject: Re: ls(1) new command line options '-/' and '-%': CIFS system attributes support [PSARC/2007/394 FastTrack timeout 07/11/2007] To: Garrett.Damore@sun.com Cc: Basabi.Bhattacharya@sun.com, PSARC-ext@sun.com Message-id: <200707031910.l63JA4Wf025445@spartan.SFBay.Sun.COM> Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 Status: RO Content-Length: 684 >Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2007 11:16:26 -0700 >From: "Garrett D'Amore" > >At some point in the future, will it be logical that these extensions >could become part of GNU ls? Has anyone approached the GNU folks for >input? I'd hate to wind up with future incompatibilities between GNU ls >and Solaris ls if it could easily be avoided by having communication now? > It is always possible. Since GNU has added lsattr, it seems less likely. If they decide to go this way there should be no problem (except that the extended attributes team has chosen to make the interfaces ls needs to get and display attributes consolidation private). - Don > -- Garrett From Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de Wed Jul 4 08:06:06 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l64F65nP010125 for ; Wed, 4 Jul 2007 08:06:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l64F4CUE023764; Wed, 4 Jul 2007 16:04:13 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JKN00D03TV0X100@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 04 Jul 2007 08:04:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sca-ea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.43.25]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JKN007Y0TV0LR60@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 04 Jul 2007 08:04:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay41i.sun.com ([192.5.209.70]) by sca-ea-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l64EuiVm009987; Wed, 04 Jul 2007 15:04:11 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mms49es.sun.com ([160.41.221.233] [160.41.221.233]) by relay41i.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-77318; Wed, 04 Jul 2007 15:04:11 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay44i.sun.com ([192.5.209.118] [192.5.209.118]) by mms49es.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-629847; Wed, 04 Jul 2007 15:04:10 +0000 (Z) Received: from mailgw10.fraunhofer.de ([153.96.1.22] [153.96.1.22]) by relay4i.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-446548; Wed, 04 Jul 2007 15:04:10 +0000 (Z) Received: from mailgw10.fraunhofer.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailgw10.fraunhofer.de (8.13.5+/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l64F4920010960; Wed, 04 Jul 2007 17:04:09 +0200 (CEST) Received: from pluto.fokus.fraunhofer.de (pluto.fokus.fraunhofer.de [195.37.77.164]) by mailgw10.fraunhofer.de (8.13.5+/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l64F4760010937 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 04 Jul 2007 17:04:08 +0200 (CEST) Received: from EXCHSRV.fokus.fraunhofer.de (bohr [10.147.9.231]) by pluto.fokus.fraunhofer.de (8.13.7/8.13.7) with SMTP id l64F47vU023088; Wed, 04 Jul 2007 17:04:07 +0200 (MEST) Received: from burner ([10.147.65.166]) by EXCHSRV.fokus.fraunhofer.de with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Wed, 04 Jul 2007 17:04:07 +0200 Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2007 17:02:01 +0200 From: Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (Joerg Schilling) Subject: Re: ls(1) new command line options '-/' and '-%': CIFS system attributes support [PSARC/2007/394 FastTrack timeout 07/11/2007] In-reply-to: <200707031808.l63I8IPl025301@spartan.SFBay.Sun.COM> To: don.cragun@sun.com Cc: PSARC-ext@sun.com, Basabi.Bhattacharya@sun.com Message-id: <468bb669.zVt635G3g4r3Qgiv%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT Received-SPF: None (mailgw10.fraunhofer.de: domain of Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de does not designate permitted sender hosts) receiver=mailgw10.fraunhofer.de; client-ip=195.37.77.164; envelope-from=; helo=pluto.fokus.fraunhofer.de; x-agent=smf-spf; X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 X-Fraunhofer-Email-Policy: accepted References: <200707031808.l63I8IPl025301@spartan.SFBay.Sun.COM> User-Agent: nail 11.22 3/20/05 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 Jul 2007 15:04:07.0160 (UTC) FILETIME=[9185B780:01C7BE4C] Status: RO Content-Length: 4586 Don Cragun wrote: > >> > The option -/ is already used by star: > >> > > >> > -/ don't strip leading '/'s from file names > >> > > >> > I believe that special characters like '/' should be use for similar tasks > >> > in order to make it easier to memorize options. > > This is true for all options, not just those using "special" option > characters. As you have already pointed out, there are lots of options > and too few available option characters to make single character > options unique. So, we do our best to use consistent option characters > for "similar", "related" Solaris utilities. This is a good reason to introduce long options. > >Let me try to explain the POSIX standard for this case. As POSIX does not > >define a new standard from scratch but just documents existing practice, there > >are many irregularities in the CLI definitions for the various utilities from > >the POSIX standard. There are e.g. programs that define something like '-Fc' > >and others that define '-F c'. The first does not like to see a space between > >the option and the parameter, the second needs a space. The related standard > >that writes down the rules for utilities is here: > > > > You don't need to explain the POSIX standard for me. You are not the only person to receive this mail. I did at least see one person from Sun during the past week who may benefit from the explanation ;-) > >http://www.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/009695399/basedefs/xbd_chap12.html ... > This is totall irrelevant here. The "-/ verbosity_flag" and "-% > timestamp" options fully support the Utility Syntax Guidelines except > (as pointed out in the case submission) guideline #3 (which says that > option characters "should" be alphanumeric character from the portable Currect, so they deviate in one point from the Utility Syntax Guidelines. They would also deviate in one point of long options would be used instead. Another problem is that -% would need quoting on my shell. This problem could be avoided by not using -%. > character set. The -/ and -% option arguments are shown in the > synopsis as separate arguments as suggested by USG #6. But, "-/ c" and > "-/c", "-/ v" and "-/v", "-% crtime" and "-%crtime", and "-% all" and > "-%all" are all accepted as suggested by the POSIX/SUS Utility Argument > Syntax point 2. As suggested by USG #7, -/ and -% option arguments are > not optional. You do not need to explain the POSIX standard for me. > >- Implementing '-/ v' ignores one of the rules from the POSIX CLI > > guidlines (not using -W for vendoer unique extensions). > > > >- Implementing something like '-attr' would also only ignore one of > > the rules from the POSIX CLI guidlines (option names should be single > > letters). > > > >Similar conclusions apply to the -% proposal. For this reason, I would > >like to know why not a long option was chosen instead. > > The PSARC CLIP case (1999/645) guideline #18 says that when long > options are used, each long option should have a single character > option equivalent and each single character option should have a long > option equivalent. So, converting to long options does not get rid of > the problem. It makes no sense to point to rules that are not written the right way. One important reason for introducing long options is to extend the option name space and to allow to use similar or equal option names for more than one utility if these utilities implement similar or equal tasks behind this option. I don't know why someone tries to mandate that every long option should have a short option equivalent. It looks to me as if somebody did use the disadvantages of the Sun getopt() implementation as prototype for some guidelines. As I pointed out before, POSIX does not require that a usility uses getopt() for option parsing and there is a better option parser that is better than getopt() which is available under the CDDL. My getargs() implementation is fully POSIX Utility Syntax Guidelines compliant and allows to implement long options without the need to a short option equivalent. The conversion from getopt() to getargs() is simple in case that the utility follows USG #11, which is mainly the case for the documented behavior of ls(1). Jörg -- EMail:joerg@schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin js@cs.tu-berlin.de (uni) schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily From jek3@sun.com Thu Jul 5 18:02:05 2007 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l66125tE015355 for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2007 18:02:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l6610C5O024810; Thu, 5 Jul 2007 18:00:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JKQ0032VG4EQI00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Thu, 05 Jul 2007 18:00:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com ([129.146.17.59]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JKQ0073SG4EUND0@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Thu, 05 Jul 2007 18:00:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [129.150.12.80] (vpn-129-150-12-80.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.12.80]) by jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l6610CSx127419; Thu, 05 Jul 2007 18:00:12 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 14:58:41 -1000 From: Joseph Kowalski Subject: Re: ls(1) new command line options '-/' and '-%': CIFS system attributes support [PSARC/2007/394 FastTrack timeout 07/11/2007] In-reply-to: <468bb669.zVt635G3g4r3Qgiv%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> To: Joerg Schilling Cc: don.cragun@sun.com, PSARC-ext@sun.com, Basabi.Bhattacharya@sun.com Message-id: <468D93C1.6020406@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200707031808.l63I8IPl025301@spartan.SFBay.Sun.COM> <468bb669.zVt635G3g4r3Qgiv%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060925) Status: RO Content-Length: 1270 Joerg Schilling wrote: > I don't know why someone tries to mandate that every long option should have > a short option equivalent. It looks to me as if somebody did use the > disadvantages of the Sun getopt() implementation as prototype for some > guidelines. > It was to allow all options to be expressible a short options. By the rationale, long-options are just a EOU for people need mnemonic hints. (This is in the CLIP rationale if anybody wants to read it or read it beyond a few tables.) It find it funny that we are asserting that we need a greater option space other than [a-zA-Z0-9]. That's 62 distinct option flags. We should be very red-faced that we are having this discussion rather than a discussion about well factored utilities. Sigh,... Poorly considered incremental changes... At this point, somebody can create "Son of CLIP" if they want. After the discussion about CLIP it should be obvious incremental additions are not going to accepted. This was a painful exercise where everyone had a view and, more importantly, the concepts related to each other in ways which aren't obvious. The CLIP cases took something on the order of 4 years to complete and "killed" a number of sponsors. Else, please accept the policy. - jek3 From Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de Fri Jul 6 03:58:02 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l66Aw1x6026028 for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2007 03:58:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l66Atxvh014470; Fri, 6 Jul 2007 11:56:06 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JKR009017PF7I00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Fri, 06 Jul 2007 03:56:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com ([192.18.98.34]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JKR008I57PAQV10@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Fri, 06 Jul 2007 03:55:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay43i.sun.com ([192.5.209.74]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l66AkeDt015976; Fri, 06 Jul 2007 10:55:57 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mms49es.sun.com ([160.41.221.233] [160.41.221.233]) by relay43i.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-59022; Fri, 06 Jul 2007 10:55:57 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay41i.sun.com ([192.5.209.70] [192.5.209.70]) by mms49es.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-704261; Fri, 06 Jul 2007 10:55:56 +0000 (Z) Received: from mailgw12.fraunhofer.de ([153.96.1.24] [153.96.1.24]) by relay4i.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-365805; Fri, 06 Jul 2007 10:55:56 +0000 (Z) Received: from mailgw12.fraunhofer.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailgw12.fraunhofer.de (8.13.5+/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l66AttUP028166; Fri, 06 Jul 2007 12:55:55 +0200 (CEST) Received: from pluto.fokus.fraunhofer.de (pluto.fokus.fraunhofer.de [195.37.77.164]) by mailgw12.fraunhofer.de (8.13.5+/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l66Atsvs028156 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Fri, 06 Jul 2007 12:55:54 +0200 (CEST) Received: from EXCHSRV.fokus.fraunhofer.de (bohr [10.147.9.231]) by pluto.fokus.fraunhofer.de (8.13.7/8.13.7) with SMTP id l66Atskf023325; Fri, 06 Jul 2007 12:55:54 +0200 (MEST) Received: from burner ([10.147.65.166]) by EXCHSRV.fokus.fraunhofer.de with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Fri, 06 Jul 2007 12:55:54 +0200 Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 12:53:46 +0200 From: Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (Joerg Schilling) Subject: Re: ls(1) new command line options '-/' and '-%': CIFS system attributes support [PSARC/2007/394 FastTrack timeout 07/11/2007] In-reply-to: <468D93C1.6020406@sun.com> To: jek3@sun.com Cc: PSARC-ext@sun.com, don.cragun@sun.com, Basabi.Bhattacharya@sun.com Message-id: <468e1f3a.DMEtaFpbM6w46Lut%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT Received-SPF: None (mailgw12.fraunhofer.de: domain of Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de does not designate permitted sender hosts) receiver=mailgw12.fraunhofer.de; client-ip=195.37.77.164; envelope-from=; helo=pluto.fokus.fraunhofer.de; x-agent=smf-spf; X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 X-Fraunhofer-Email-Policy: accepted References: <200707031808.l63I8IPl025301@spartan.SFBay.Sun.COM> <468bb669.zVt635G3g4r3Qgiv%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <468D93C1.6020406@sun.com> User-Agent: nail 11.22 3/20/05 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Jul 2007 10:55:54.0143 (UTC) FILETIME=[396B2AF0:01C7BFBC] Status: RO Content-Length: 8027 Joseph Kowalski wrote: > Joerg Schilling wrote: > > I don't know why someone tries to mandate that every long option should have > > a short option equivalent. It looks to me as if somebody did use the > > disadvantages of the Sun getopt() implementation as prototype for some > > guidelines. > > > It was to allow all options to be expressible a short options. By the > rationale, long-options > are just a EOU for people need mnemonic hints. (This is in the CLIP > rationale if anybody > wants to read it or read it beyond a few tables.) This is a paradigma that helps if the utility offers between 5..20 options but it does not help for modern programs that give a lot more functionality than programs did imlement in the 1970s. In the 1970s, programs have been limited in functionality by low amounts of RAM. Pipes have been invented and more complex functionality has been implemented as a pipeline chain of filter programs. But pipeline filters are limited in their functionality as they only may filter the output of programs. They are not able to act as a filter to the internal data structures of a program. A notable example in this context is "libfind". It is used by mkisofs and star and allows to filter the internal data flow of the programs, giving you the ability to implement features that are impossible with pilepines. We live in the age of shared libraries and could use them more widely than done already ;-) The paradigma of the 1970s was: "Write small programs and resuse them by combining their functionality via pipes." This works with limited RAM and needs few options. The paradigma of today is: "Write reusable libraries and let more propgrams use them." This needs more RAM (we just have it now) and more options in the resulting programs. For implementing option, we should not use the methods from the 1970s but the methods of today.... > It find it funny that we are asserting that we need a greater option > space other than > [a-zA-Z0-9]. That's 62 distinct option flags. We should be very > red-faced that we > are having this discussion rather than a discussion about well factored > utilities. > > Sigh,... Poorly considered incremental changes... If you really "design" a utility this way to have 62 single char options, this would result in a utility that would be really hard to use. Nobody would remember the relation between options and functionality. You are right, utilities with more than 10 single char (only) options are poorly designed and in most cases a result of incremental changes. Let us look at the reality of today, for all listed utilities, I did count only basic options and not alias names to options: GNU tar implemented 70 options the last time I checked. I would guess it has ~ 80 options today. Studio 12 cc implements 142 options mkisofs implements 152 options star implements 157 options Studio 12 CC implements 159 options GNU cc implements an unknown but much bigger amount of options All these utilities use long options and none of these utilities would be able to live with single char option aliases for all options they implement. For utilities that have less than ~ 10-20 options, I would like to see long mnemonic options as aliases but we need to be very careful here and don't do the same mistake that has been done by the FSF. I do not like to see FAQs that mention long options (being mnemocial help for POSIX short options only) because this will create at least non-portable shell scripts as widely seen on Linux. If we would offer long option aliases (but not only then), I would like to see warnings in the man pages that inform people about enhancements on the POSIX utility interface and a note that shell scripts should not use these enhancements if portablity might be an issue. As an example for the in-line help of a utility that helps people to avoid non-portable scripts, I append the "sfind -help" output to the end of this mail... > At this point, somebody can create "Son of CLIP" if they want. After > the discussion > about CLIP it should be obvious incremental additions are not going to > accepted. This > was a painful exercise where everyone had a view and, more importantly, > the concepts > related to each other in ways which aren't obvious. The CLIP cases took > something > on the order of 4 years to complete and "killed" a number of sponsors. > Else, please > accept the policy. If the policy does no longer meet the reality, it needs to be updated. I am willing to cooperate for such an updated guideline. BTW: could you explain what you understand by "incremental additions are not going to accepted"? /*--------------------------------------------------------------------------*/ Usage: sfind [options] [path_1 ... path_n] [expression] Options: -H follow symbolic links encountered on command line -L follow all symbolic links * -P do not follow symbolic links (default) * -help Print this help. * -version Print version number. Operators in decreasing precedence: ( ) group an expression !, -a, -o negate a primary (unary NOT), logical AND, logical OR Primaries: * -acl TRUE if the file has additional ACLs defined -atime # TRUE if st_atime is in specified range * -chgrp gname/gid always TRUE, sets st_gid to gname/gid * -chmod mode/onum always TRUE, sets permissions to mode/onum * -chown uname/uid always TRUE, sets st_uid to uname/uid -ctime # TRUE if st_ctime is in specified range -depth evaluate directory content before directory (always TRUE) * -dostat Do not do stat optimization (always TRUE) -exec program [argument ...] \; -exec program [argument ...] {} + * -false always FALSE * -follow outdated: follow all symbolic links (always TRUE) * -fstype type TRUE if st_fstype matches type -group gname/gid TRUE if st_gid matches gname/gid * -inum # TRUE if st_ino is in specified range * -linkedto path TRUE if the file is linked to path -links # TRUE if st_nlink is in specified range * -lname glob TRUE if symlink name matches shell glob * -local TRUE if st_fstype does not match remote fs types * -lpat pattern TRUE if symlink name matches pattern * -ls list files similar to 'ls -ilds' (always TRUE) * -maxdepth # descend at most # directory levels (always TRUE) * -mindepth # start tests at directory level # (always TRUE) -mtime # TRUE if st_mtime is in specified range -name glob TRUE if path component matches shell glob -newer file TRUE if st_mtime newer then mtime of file -newerXY file TRUE if [acm]time (X) newer then [acm]time (Y) of file -nogroup TRUE if not in group database -nouser TRUE if not in user database -ok program [argument ...] \; * -pat pattern TRUE if path component matches pattern * -path glob TRUE if full path matches shell glob -perm mode/onum TRUE if symbolic/octal permission matches * -ppat pattern TRUE if full path matches pattern -print print file names line separated to stdout (always TRUE) * -printnnl print file names space separated to stdout (always TRUE) -prune do not descent current directory (always TRUE) -size # TRUE if st_size is in specified range * -sparse TRUE if file appears to be sparse * -true always TRUE -type c TRUE if file type matches, c is from (b c d D e f l p P s) -user uname/uid TRUE if st_uid matches uname/uid * -xattr TRUE if the file has extended attributes -xdev, -mount restrict search to current filesystem (always TRUE) Primaries marked with '*' are POSIX extensions, don't use them in portable scripts. If path is omitted, '.' is used. If expression is omitted, -print is used. Jörg -- EMail:joerg@schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin js@cs.tu-berlin.de (uni) schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily From jek3@sun.com Fri Jul 6 16:25:49 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l66NPlkk010664 for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2007 16:25:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l66NNoFj018576; Sat, 7 Jul 2007 07:23:51 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JKS006016BQFU00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Fri, 06 Jul 2007 16:23:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com ([129.146.17.63]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JKS004W26BPSE30@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Fri, 06 Jul 2007 16:23:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [129.150.12.80] (vpn-129-150-12-80.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.12.80]) by jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l66NNm14260812; Fri, 06 Jul 2007 16:23:48 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 13:22:14 -1000 From: Joseph Kowalski Subject: Re: ls(1) new command line options '-/' and '-%': CIFS system attributes support [PSARC/2007/394 FastTrack timeout 07/11/2007] In-reply-to: <468e1f3a.DMEtaFpbM6w46Lut%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> To: Joerg Schilling Cc: PSARC-ext@sun.com, don.cragun@sun.com, Basabi.Bhattacharya@sun.com Message-id: <468ECEA6.6090502@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200707031808.l63I8IPl025301@spartan.SFBay.Sun.COM> <468bb669.zVt635G3g4r3Qgiv%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <468D93C1.6020406@sun.com> <468e1f3a.DMEtaFpbM6w46Lut%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060925) Status: RO Content-Length: 3154 I think this discussion, although worthwhile, is starting to be out-of-bounds for this exact PSARC case. Additional discussion should be in another forum. Still, one big clarification should be made.... Joerg Schilling wrote: > If the policy does no longer meet the reality, it needs to be updated. > I am willing to cooperate for such an updated guideline. > > BTW: could you explain what you understand by "incremental additions are not > going to accepted"? > First, I said this as an absolute. That isn't right. This "assertion" is just my view as to what SAC would accept. What I was trying to say is that I don't think that a simple addition isn't going to provide much value to the specification. For example, what if somebody proposed that in "gnu like" fashion, optional argument values were to be supported. Its an ambiguous construction (that gnu seem OK with - go figure), but it could be proposed. This is the type of "incremental addition" that I doubt will be accepted. Why? Because we've already had the discussion when CLIP was accepted. All the simple "incremental additions" were all ready considered. The requirement that long-options have equivalent short-options was beaten to death when CLIP was considered. Been there,... Done that,... I wasn't joking that this took something on the order of 4 years and "killed" a number of sponsors. I'm the sponsor who finally got the discussion to close. Nobody got the specific prose they wanted. I certainly didn't get the prose I wanted. I'm actually proud that I was able to close this - not that its a great specification, but that I was able to negotiate so many diverse opinions. What you don't like (long-options require short-option equivalent) has already been beaten to death. There is nothing a single person, or even a small group, can change something like this because of the **huge** group of people which weighed-in on this policy. It has a **lot** of inertia behind it. So, how can such a change happen? One way is that a new "CLIP" started from scratch. If might not be based of the existing CLIP (which was based on the 1991 getopt case). For all I know, options will be preceded by "/" rather than "-". 8^) This is the "non-incremental" type of change I was referring to. The other way would be that a huge population of community members believe that such an incremental change is a "good thing". This could happen, and maybe happen in a few years, but I doubt that such a "huge population" of community members will have such a uniform belief any time soon. (Hurt me with that problem.) Now, coming down from the 50,000 ft level, you said "If the policy does no longer meet the reality". Have bunches of new utilities with large numbers of options just suddenly appeared? I don't think so. When we considered CLIP, we knew that some utilities had this property. We knew they couldn't conform to CLIP (in this one way). So what? There are exceptions. The goal is to limit the number of exceptions, particularly extraneous exceptions. (Let's not decompose is the current examples are extraneous or not.) - jek3 From John.Plocher@sun.com Mon Jul 9 09:06:46 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l69G6jL2027739 for ; Mon, 9 Jul 2007 09:06:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l69G4gWU024673; Mon, 9 Jul 2007 17:04:48 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JKX00D2P6000800@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Mon, 09 Jul 2007 10:04:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sca-es-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.43.132]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JKX0065X5ZSWK90@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Mon, 09 Jul 2007 10:04:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: from fe-sfbay-09.sun.com ([192.18.43.129]) by sca-es-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l69G4em2025385; Mon, 09 Jul 2007 09:04:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.fe-sfbay-09.sun.com by fe-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0JKX00J015V3I800@fe-sfbay-09.sun.com> (original mail from John.Plocher@Sun.COM); Mon, 09 Jul 2007 09:04:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [129.146.58.86] by fe-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0JKX003MK5ZK0570@fe-sfbay-09.sun.com>; Mon, 09 Jul 2007 09:04:33 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 09:00:26 -0700 From: John Plocher Subject: Re: ls(1) new command line options '-/' and '-%': CIFS system attributes support [PSARC/2007/394 FastTrack timeout 07/11/2007] In-reply-to: <468ECEA6.6090502@sun.com> Sender: John.Plocher@sun.com To: Joseph Kowalski Cc: Joerg Schilling , PSARC-ext@sun.com, don.cragun@sun.com, Basabi.Bhattacharya@sun.com Reply-to: John.Plocher@sun.com Message-id: <46925B9A.9050205@sun.com> Organization: Systems Architecture Council - Tools and Process MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200707031808.l63I8IPl025301@spartan.SFBay.Sun.COM> <468bb669.zVt635G3g4r3Qgiv%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <468D93C1.6020406@sun.com> <468e1f3a.DMEtaFpbM6w46Lut%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <468ECEA6.6090502@sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060925) Status: RO Content-Length: 2115 Joseph Kowalski wrote: > Now, coming down from the 50,000 ft level, One "given" in the CLIP discussion was that all the commands within a logical grouping should have similar styles of options. That is, within the "posix" commands, one expects getopt-style behavior, within the X11 set, one expects -display to work everywhere, etc. A direct corollary of this is the assertion that it is undesirable to have one command within such a family be gratuitously different from the others (leaving aside the historical misfits like tar and dd which simply serve to prove this point...). Finally, there was an assumption that going back and retrofitting a whole family with new command line behavior was infeasible at best; at worst, it would be undesirable if it resulted in incompatible changes being made to existing Committed interfaces. This was to prevent us from spending time on efforts that, while well intentioned, would effectively make things more difficult for customers. Efforts (for example) like adding "gnu-style" long options to /just/ the ls(1) command. The failure mode here being that, if users found that if ls --help worked while df --help did not, we would see an increase in service calls noting the difference and asking that the new --help feature be added to the other posix commands as well. The thing that has changed with OpenSolaris is that the "infeasible" argument can be reevaluated - while it my not make sense for Sun to spend its limited development resources on fixing things that are not exactly broken, there is nothing that says that others couldn't or shouldn't be able to make a different decision for themselves. That is, while I'm still against a piecemeal approach, there is room on the table for a proposal to go thru all the commands in the family and "improve" them. In particular, Garrett's thread on the overlap between ON/Posix commands and SFW/gnu ones and this ls(1) one could come together in a larger plan/roadmap.... But, as Joe said, this particular thread on this particular alias is probably NOT the right place to have that discussion. -John From don.cragun@sun.com Wed Jul 11 12:23:08 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l6BJN79F004488 for ; Wed, 11 Jul 2007 12:23:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l6BJL5bV001934; Thu, 12 Jul 2007 03:21:09 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JL1002014F7WZ00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 11 Jul 2007 12:21:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from spartan.SFBay.Sun.COM ([129.146.226.64]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JL1009ZG4F759C0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 11 Jul 2007 12:21:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from spartan.SFBay.Sun.COM (spartan.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.226.64]) by spartan.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with SMTP id l6BJL7QR004506; Wed, 11 Jul 2007 12:21:07 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 12:21:07 -0700 (PDT) From: Don Cragun Subject: Re: ls(1) new command line options '-/' and '-%': CIFS system attributes support [PSARC/2007/394 FastTrack timeout 07/11/2007] To: Basabi.Bhattacharya@sun.com Cc: PSARC-ext@sun.com Reply-to: Don Cragun Message-id: <200707111921.l6BJL7QR004506@spartan.SFBay.Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: dtmail 1.3.0 @(#)CDE Version 1.5.5 SunOS 5.9 sun4u sparc Content-type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-MD5: idIlkZxr4v6a9K1es5MaYA== X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 Status: RO Content-Length: 63 This case was approved during today's PSARC meeting. - Don From gsf@research.att.com Mon Jul 16 14:13:03 2007 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l6GLD3xX024344 for ; Mon, 16 Jul 2007 14:13:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l6GLB1kv011464; Mon, 16 Jul 2007 14:11:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JLA00L03IUBJZ00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Mon, 16 Jul 2007 14:10:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sca-ea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.43.24]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JLA00D8CIUA3YB0@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Mon, 16 Jul 2007 14:10:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay17i.sun.com (ip127.net129179-4.block1.us.syntegra.com [129.179.4.127]) by sca-ea-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l6GLAwox006287; Mon, 16 Jul 2007 21:10:58 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mmp11es.sun.com ([160.41.209.21] [160.41.209.21]) by relay17i.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-158491; Mon, 16 Jul 2007 21:10:58 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay17i.sun.com (relay17i.sun.com [129.179.4.127]) by mmp11es.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-546624; Mon, 16 Jul 2007 21:10:57 +0000 (Z) Received: from mail-red.research.att.com ([192.20.225.110] [192.20.225.110]) by relay1i.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-773673; Mon, 16 Jul 2007 21:10:57 +0000 (Z) Received: from penguin.research.att.com (penguin.research.att.com [135.207.20.192]) by mail-blue.research.att.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F2A9147E1C; Mon, 16 Jul 2007 17:10:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from gsf@localhost) by penguin.research.att.com (8.13.1/8.12.10/Submit) id l6GLAvHW017024; Mon, 16 Jul 2007 17:10:57 -0400 Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 17:10:57 -0400 From: Glenn Fowler Subject: Re: ls(1) new command line options '-/' and '-%': CIFS system attributes support [PSARC/2007/394 FastTrack timeout 07/11/2007] To: Basabi.Bhattacharya@sun.com, Darren.Moffat@sun.com, Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de Cc: don.cragun@sun.com, PSARC-ext@sun.com Message-id: <200707162110.l6GLAvHW017024@penguin.research.att.com> Organization: AT&T Research MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: mailx (AT&T/BSD) 9.9 2006-04-17 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200706292159.l5TLxLbT023155@sac.sfbay.sun.com> <468582dc.TSCWC8v+em54LyHk%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> <4688ECC2.4050509@Sun.COM> <468a70ed.LmmfZMLTAGOepASV%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> Status: RO Content-Length: 1087 On Tue, 03 Jul 2007 17:53:17 +0200 Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (Joerg Schilling) wrote: > The POSIX CLI guidlines say that an option should be a single letter and > should be behind the "-" delimiter. > - Implementing an option '--foo' would ignore two of the rules from > the POSIX CLI guidlines. (late comment due to vacation -- wish it could have been even later ...) by bending a should, long options can be supported by getopt(3) just add the single option flag '-' that takes a mandatory value and use the --name=value form for long options with values not the way I do it, but also not prohibited by posix also, the ksh-integration provides getopts(1) and the underlying ast::optget(3) that provides getopts(1) and getopt(3) compatibility and extensions for long options, a mechanism for long options with or without a corresponding option flag, l10n long option translation, and pre-defined { --help --man --html } options shell scripts using getopts(1) and utilities using optget(3) use the same interface -- Glenn Fowler -- AT&T Research, Florham Park NJ -- From Nicolas.Williams@sun.com Tue Jul 24 09:07:57 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l6OG7uYN028798 for ; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 09:07:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l6OG5iIM021262 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-ext@sun.com>; Wed, 25 Jul 2007 00:05:48 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JLO00601Y1LM200@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Tue, 24 Jul 2007 09:05:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.east.sun.com ([129.148.19.35]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JLO003HIY1KRZ60@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Tue, 24 Jul 2007 09:05:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.east.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.east.sun.com (8.14.0+Sun/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l6OG2V4P001839; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 11:02:40 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from nico@localhost) by localhost.east.sun.com (8.14.0+Sun/8.14.0/Submit) id l61LoPWT003492; Sun, 01 Jul 2007 16:50:25 -0500 (CDT) Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2007 16:50:24 -0500 From: Nico Subject: Re: ls(1) new command line options '-/' and '-%': CIFS system attributes support [PSARC/2007/394 FastTrack timeout 07/11/2007] In-reply-to: <4687CE34.5020803@wizmail.org> To: Jeremy Harris Cc: PSARC-ext@sun.com Message-id: <20070701215023.GB3314@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200706292159.l5TLxLbT023155@sac.sfbay.sun.com> <4687CE34.5020803@wizmail.org> X-Authentication-warning: localhost.east.sun.com: nico set sender to Nicolas.Williams@sun.com using -f User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.7i Status: RO Content-Length: 432 On Sun, Jul 01, 2007 at 04:54:28PM +0100, Jeremy Harris wrote: > Linux seems to have a new command in this region: "lsattr". > Ref: http://linux.about.com/library/cmd/blcmdl1_lsattr.htm > > Was this approach considered? Do we risk incompatibility? Dunno, dunno, but ISTM that it's time to consider a new ls command that has a ps/zfs-like -o argument of what to print, and one that is more scriptable. Nico -- From gsf@research.att.com Tue Jul 24 10:25:14 2007 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l6OHPE3V004489 for ; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 10:25:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l6OHN2A2014197; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 10:23:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JLP00F111MGYC00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 11:23:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sca-ea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.43.24]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JLP00FEE1MAM500@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 11:23:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay23.sun.com (relay23.sun.com [192.12.251.54] (may be forged)) by sca-ea-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l6OHMwqo002386; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 17:22:58 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mms25es.sun.com ([150.143.232.94] [150.143.232.94]) by relay23.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-124939; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 17:22:57 +0000 (Z) Received: from mms21bas.mms.us.syntegra.com (mms21bas.mms.us.syntegra.com [192.12.251.10]) by mms25es.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-2001555; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 17:22:57 +0000 (Z) Received: from mail-red.research.att.com ([192.20.225.110] [192.20.225.110]) by relay25.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-1448081; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 17:22:56 +0000 (Z) Received: from penguin.research.att.com (penguin.research.att.com [135.207.20.192]) by mail-blue.research.att.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93359147CD6; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 13:22:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from gsf@localhost) by penguin.research.att.com (8.13.1/8.12.10/Submit) id l6OHMu7E016033; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 13:22:56 -0400 Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 13:22:56 -0400 From: Glenn Fowler Subject: Re: ls(1) new command line options '-/' and '-%': CIFS system attributes support [PSARC/2007/394 FastTrack timeout 07/11/2007] To: jgh@wizmail.org, Nicolas.Williams@Sun.COM Cc: PSARC-ext@Sun.COM Message-id: <200707241722.l6OHMu7E016033@penguin.research.att.com> Organization: AT&T Research MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: mailx (AT&T/BSD) 9.9 2006-04-17 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200706292159.l5TLxLbT023155@sac.sfbay.sun.com> <4687CE34.5020803@wizmail.org> <20070701215023.GB3314@Sun.COM> Status: RO Content-Length: 1410 probably off-topic, but ps -o style lists are probably too weak to emulate current ls formatting the ast ls(1) has full printf(3) formatting the same supporting code is used in the ast pax(1) and ps(1) commands this shows the supported format data fields ls --?format and --dump shows the format generated by the options in scope (and exits) e.g., this lists the format used for -l: ls -l --dump because each file type may have different fields active, formatting can get complicated e.g., device files list major,minor instead of size, and symlinks list the link text when certain options are in scope alternatives based on file type are supported in the format syntax ast ls does not address attributes adding them will be handled by adding fields to the format table new option(s) would not be required but would probably be added for consensus compatibility -- Glenn Fowler -- AT&T Research, Florham Park NJ -- On Sun, 01 Jul 2007 16:50:24 -0500 Nico wrote: > On Sun, Jul 01, 2007 at 04:54:28PM +0100, Jeremy Harris wrote: > > Linux seems to have a new command in this region: "lsattr". > > Ref: http://linux.about.com/library/cmd/blcmdl1_lsattr.htm > > > > Was this approach considered? Do we risk incompatibility? > Dunno, dunno, but ISTM that it's time to consider a new ls command that > has a ps/zfs-like -o argument of what to print, and one > that is more scriptable.