From Artem.Kachitchkin@sun.com Wed Aug 29 12:09:35 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l7TJ9YXH022293 for ; Wed, 29 Aug 2007 12:09:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l7TJ6sbp004363 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-ext@sun.com>; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 03:06:55 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JNJ00J0HUFHD100@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@Sun.Com); Wed, 29 Aug 2007 12:06:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sca-es-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.43.133]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JNJ005WSUFDMA80@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@Sun.Com); Wed, 29 Aug 2007 12:06:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fe-sfbay-09.sun.com ([192.18.43.129]) by sca-es-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l7TJ6neG021238 for ; Wed, 29 Aug 2007 12:06:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.fe-sfbay-09.sun.com by fe-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0JNJ00701U6K0S00@fe-sfbay-09.sun.com> (original mail from Artem.Kachitchkin@Sun.COM) for PSARC-ext@Sun.Com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@Sun.Com); Wed, 29 Aug 2007 12:06:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [129.150.19.76] by fe-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0JNJ000OSUEYTRD0@fe-sfbay-09.sun.com>; Wed, 29 Aug 2007 12:06:36 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 12:04:55 -0700 From: Artem Kachitchkine Subject: PSARC/2007/499 Automatic discovery of network attached printers Sender: Artem.Kachitchkin@sun.com To: PSARC-ext@sun.com Cc: Norm Jacobs Message-id: <46D5C357.7080900@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 Gecko/20040113 Status: RO Content-Length: 13115 I am sponsoring this case for Norm Jacobs. Requested binding is minor, timeout 09/06/2007. -Artem Template Version: @(#)sac_nextcase 1.64 07/13/07 SMI This information is Copyright 2007 Sun Microsystems 1. Introduction 1.1. Project/Component Working Name: Automatic discovery of network attached printers 1.2. Name of Document Author/Supplier: Author: Norm Jacobs 1.3 Date of This Document: 29 August, 2007 4. Technical Description Description ----------- Solaris currently includes USB printer detection and configuration support via HAL and a desktop applet (ospm-applet). This support allows users to hotplug a printer into the USB on a system and virtually automatically create a print queue for it. While USB printers are often used to fill low end desktop user's needs, network attached printers are slowly moving toward that space and have become (or are becoming) predominant in homes, small offices, and workgroup environments, as well as larger scale installations. In order to better support these devices, this case seeks to extend the current HAL offering by adding a network attached device discovery service addon module and a probe module to probe network attached printers for identifying data. These modules will be connected to HAL via .fdi files. Internally, the discovery service will be managed by D-BUS method calls with a corresponding public SMF service instance for each discovery method. Each service instance will have D-BUS methods that correspond to enabling, disabling, and refreshing the service. Management of the SMF service instances (and modification of their attributes) will be controlled by instance specific authorizations. These authorizations will be added to the "Printer Management" profile. Network Device Discovery ------------------------ Actual network device discovery will be handled by the HAL addon module named hald-addon-network-discovery. This module will be tied into the HAL device tree at /org/freedesktop/hal/devices/network_attached by configuration stored in a HAL configuration file, /etc/hal/fdi/policy/10osvendor/10-network-attached.fdi. At startup, this module will claim the org.freedesktop.Hal.Device.NetworkDiscovery interface on the D-BUS and process a set of method calls that control it's operation. Actual network attached device discovery will start in an idle state. That is to say that network attached device discovery will not occur until it has been enabled via D-BUS method call(s). Management of network attached device discovery will be handled by instances of a new SMF service (svc:/network/device-discovery). These service instances will each correspond to a discovery method. The service instances will make D-BUS method calls in response to being enabled, disabled, and/or refreshed. Persistant configuration relevant to each supported discovery method will be stored in the SMF repository in a "config" property group associated with each service instance. Management of the service instances will require authorizations specific to the discovery method. Each of these authorizations will be added to the "Printer Management" profile. As network attached printers are discovered, they will be added to the HAL device tree at /org/freedesktop/hal/devices/network_attached/{addr}. These nodes will contain a set of HAL properties that include elements of the "printer" property group, "info" property group, and a new "network_device" property group. The network_device property group contains a required "address" property. The info property group will list "printer" and "network_device" as two of the device's capabilities. HAL does not currently define ownership of devices in it's device tree, instead all devices are assumed to be under control of the console owner. Devices discovered through this module are expected to be assigned the same way all local devices are assigned. Since virtually all network attached printers (or attachment devices) seem to support SNMP v1, the initial implementation will support an SNMP_GET broadcast mechanism for device discovery. The SNMP discovery method will use the following SMF service instance/properties, and D-BUS methods/arguments SMF Service Instance D-BUS Method svc:/network/device-discovery:snmp org.freedesktop.Hal.Device. enable NetworkDiscovery.EnableScanningViaSNMP() config/interval int32:interval config/network string:network config/community string:community org.freedesktop.Hal.Device. disable NetworkDiscovery.DisableScanningViaSNMP() org.freedesktop.Hal.Device. refresh NetworkDiscovery.ScanViaSNMP() config/network string:network config/community string:community interval specifies the number of seconds to wait between active SNMP scans. community specifies the SNMP community string to use in SNMP_GET requests. network specifies the network broadcast address to use in the SNMP_GET request. Network Printer Probe --------------------- Probing of network attached printers for identifying data will be handled by a HAL probe module named hal-probe-network-printer. This module will be attached to and invoked for each device who's info.capabilities propery contains the 'printer' capability and contains a network_device.address. This will be achieved through configuration in the HAL configuration file /etc/hal/fdi/preprobe/10osvendor/20-printers.fdi. The network attached printer probe will make use of SNMP to probe each device and extract manufacturer, model, description, serial number, device-uri, and other information. Since most SNMP implementations on network attached printers don't use a standard representation for this data, several vendor specific MIB objects will be queried, along with newer standard MIB objects to extract this information. An example network attached printer entry looks remarkably like this: udi = '/org/freedesktop/Hal/devices/network_attached/192_168_0_15' printer.commandset = {'PJL', 'MLC', 'BIDI-ECP', 'PCLXL', 'PCL', 'PDF', 'PJL', 'MIME', 'POSTSCRIPT'} (string list) printer.description = 'Hewlett-Packard color LaserJet 4650' (string) printer.product = 'hp color LaserJet 4650' (string) printer.vendor = 'Hewlett-Packard' (string) info.callouts.add = {'hald-probe-network-printer'} (string list) info.udi = '/org/freedesktop/Hal/devices/network_attached/192_168_0_15' (string) printer.device = 'socket://192.168.0.15:9100' (string) network_device.address = '192.168.0.15' (string) info.capabilities = {'printer', 'network_device'} (string list) info.category = 'printer' (string) info.parent = '/org/freedesktop/Hal/devices/network_attached' (string) In this example, all of the info.*, network_device.*, and the printer.device properties were supplied by the discovery service addon module. The balance of the printer properties were supplied by the network-printer-probe. EXPORTED INTERFACES ------------------- /usr/lib/hal/ hald-addon-network-discovery Project Private discovery service addon hald-network-printer-probe Project Private printer property probe /etc/hal/fdi/policy/10osvendor/ 10-network-attached.fdi Project Private Attach discovery service to HAL /etc/hal/fdi/preprobe/10osvendor/ 20-printers.fdi Project Private Attach network printer probe to newly discovered network attached printers /org/freedesktop/hal/devices/ HAL Device Tree network_attached Volatile Discovery service node network_attached/{addr} Volatile Device node HAL Device properties network_device.address Project Private network_device.snmp_community Project Private org.freedesktop. D-BUS Network API Hal.Device.NetworkDiscovery Volatile " discovery service interface EnableScanningViaSNMP() Volatile Start periodic SNMP device discovery DisableScanningViaSNMP() Volatile Stop periodic SNMP device discovery ScanViaSNMP() Volatile Search the network once for attached devices using SNMP svc:/network/device-discovery:snmp Committed SMF FMRI to start/stop SNMP device discovery config/network Committed broadcast address for active SNMP scanning config/community Committed SNMP community string for active scanning config/interval Committed seconds between active network scans solaris.smf.manage.discovery.snmp Committed Authorization required to manage SNMP discovery solaris.smf.value.discovery.snmp Committed Authorization required to manipulate SNMP discovery properties. Binding: minor IMPORTED INTERFACES ------------------- libhal Volatile libdbus-1 Volatile libdbus-glib-1 Volatile fdi(4) file format Volatile hal-device(1M) Volatile dbus-send(1M) Volatile Utility to send a message on the D-BUS message bus. libnetsnmp Stable Core SNMP library SNMPv2-MIB::sysDescr.0 Committed SNMP MIB system description HOST-RESOURCES-MIB::hrDeviceDescr.1 Committed Host-Resource MIB device description SNMPv2-SMI::enterprises. 2699.1.2.1.1.1.3 Committed PWG PortMon MIB 1284 Device ID 253.8.51.1.2.1.20.1 Committed Xerox MIB 1284 Device ID 253.8.53.3.2.1.2.1 Committed Xerox MIB Description 253.8.53.3.2.1.3.1 Committed Xerox MIB Serial Number 128.2.1.3.1.1.0 Committed Xerox MIB Manufacturer 128.2.1.3.1.2.0 Committed Xerox MIB Model 128.2.1.3.6.23.1.5.1 Committed Xerox MIB Device-URI 23.2.32.3.2.1.10.1.16 Committed Xerox MIB Manufacturer 23.2.32.3.2.1.10.1.17 Committed Xerox MIB Model 23.2.32.4.1.0 Committed Xerox MIB Manufacturer 23.2.32.4.2.0 Committed Xerox MIB Model 367.3.2.1.1.1.11.0 Committed Ricoh MIB 1284 Device ID 367.3.2.1.2.1.4.0 Committed Ricoh MIB Serial Number 2001.1.2.683.1.3 Committed OKIdata MIB Product Name 2001.1.2.683.1.5 Committed OKIdata MIB Serial Number 2590.1.1.2.1.5.7.14.2.1.1.16.1 Committed QMS MIB Product Name 2590.1.1.1.5.5.1.1.3.2 Committed QMS MIB Serial Number 2590.1.1.2.1.5.7.14.2.2.1.3.1.1 Committed QMS MIB Device-URI 641.2.1.2.1.3.1 Committed Lexmark MIB 1284 Device ID 641.2.1.2.1.6.1 Committed Lexmark MIB Serial Number 2435.2.3.9.1.1.7.0 Committed Brother MIB 1284 Device ID 2435.2.3.9.4.2.1.5.5.1.0 Committed Brother MIB Serial Number 11.2.3.9.1.1.7.0 Committed HP MIB 1284 Device ID 11.2.3.9.4.2.2.5.1.1.17 Committed HP MIB Serial Number Related ARC Cases ----------------- LSARC/2003/103 Solaris Management Agent 1.0 PSARC/2005/399 Tamarack: Removable Media Enhancements in Solaris PSARC/2005/562 Multicast DNS and Service Discovery LSARC/2006/368 D-BUS Message Bus System PSARC/2006/467 Printers Devfs Events LSARC/2007/287 Presto (Phase I) - Automatic detection of local USB printers 6. Resources and Schedule 6.4. Steering Committee requested information 6.4.1. Consolidation C-team Name: ON 6.5. ARC review type: FastTrack 6.6. ARC Exposure: open From carlsonj@phorcys.east.sun.com Wed Aug 29 12:55:45 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l7TJtidn023668 for ; Wed, 29 Aug 2007 12:55:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l7TJqumP022679; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 03:53:01 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JNJ00M15WKAD500@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 29 Aug 2007 12:52:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com ([129.148.174.143]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JNJ005TGWK5MIB0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 29 Aug 2007 12:52:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l7TJqqUb111932; Wed, 29 Aug 2007 15:52:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from carlsonj@localhost) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1/Submit) id l7TJqqVV111929; Wed, 29 Aug 2007 15:52:52 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 15:52:52 -0400 From: James Carlson Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/499 Automatic discovery of network attached printers In-reply-to: <46D5C357.7080900@sun.com> To: Artem Kachitchkine Cc: PSARC-ext@Sun.COM, Norm Jacobs Message-id: <18133.52884.802810.152560@gargle.gargle.HOWL> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: VM 7.01 under Emacs 21.3.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <46D5C357.7080900@sun.com> Status: RO Content-Length: 2120 Artem Kachitchkine writes: > In order to better support these devices, this case seeks to extend the > current HAL offering by adding a network attached device discovery > service addon module and a probe module to probe network attached > printers for identifying data. These modules will be connected to HAL > via .fdi files. Just to clarify: we're only discovering printers on the network. If we have a printer (attached via some other method, such as USB), we won't be advertising that device to others, right? > Since virtually all network attached printers (or attachment devices) > seem to support SNMP v1, the initial implementation will support an > SNMP_GET broadcast mechanism for device discovery. The SNMP discovery > method will use the following SMF service instance/properties, and > D-BUS methods/arguments I didn't see a reference here to RFC 1759 or 3805. Will this project use any of the standardized Printer MIB interfaces, or does it only support the enumerated vendor MIB entries and Host Resources? What about Avahi? > svc:/network/device-discovery:snmp org.freedesktop.Hal.Device. Enabled or disabled by default? And under what system profile? > interval specifies the number of seconds to wait between active SNMP > scans. community specifies the SNMP community string to use in > SNMP_GET requests. network specifies the network broadcast address to > use in the SNMP_GET request. What's the default for config/network? Why does that need to be specified anyway? You should be able to use SIOCGIF* ioctls to get every bit of information needed to perform broadcast-based queries. > libnetsnmp Stable Core SNMP library Nit: should be Committed. > PSARC/2006/467 Printers Devfs Events How is this related to devfs? (Is it just because of the reference to USB printers, or is there something deeper here?) -- James Carlson, Solaris Networking Sun Microsystems / 1 Network Drive 71.232W Vox +1 781 442 2084 MS UBUR02-212 / Burlington MA 01803-2757 42.496N Fax +1 781 442 1677 From danek.duvall@sun.com Wed Aug 29 13:47:02 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l7TKl1VM024743 for ; Wed, 29 Aug 2007 13:47:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l7TKiJ5a013540 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-ext@sun.com>; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 04:44:22 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JNJ00E03YXWX400@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Wed, 29 Aug 2007 13:44:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sfbaymail1sca.SFBay.Sun.COM ([129.145.154.35]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JNJ006J1YXW19A0@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Wed, 29 Aug 2007 13:44:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zruty.sfbay.sun.com (zruty.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.168.40]) by sfbaymail1sca.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l7TKiEWv010924; Wed, 29 Aug 2007 13:44:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zruty.sfbay.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zruty.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l7TKguXS023941; Wed, 29 Aug 2007 13:42:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from dduvall@localhost) by zruty.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1/Submit) id l7TKgueH023940; Wed, 29 Aug 2007 13:42:56 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 13:42:56 -0700 From: Danek Duvall Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/499 Automatic discovery of network attached printers In-reply-to: <46D5C357.7080900@sun.com> To: Norm Jacobs Cc: PSARC-ext@sun.com, Artem Kachitchkine Message-id: <20070829204256.GU13350@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <46D5C357.7080900@sun.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.16 (2007-06-27) Status: RO Content-Length: 1394 > Network Device Discovery > ------------------------ > > Actual network device discovery will be handled by the HAL addon module > named hald-addon-network-discovery. This module will be tied into the > HAL device tree at /org/freedesktop/hal/devices/network_attached by > configuration stored in a HAL configuration file, > /etc/hal/fdi/policy/10osvendor/10-network-attached.fdi. At startup, > this module will claim the org.freedesktop.Hal.Device.NetworkDiscovery All these names (as well as the SMF method) don't include "printer" in them. Does this mean that they're more generic than that? It seems like that might be the case from some of the rest of your material, but it's not entirely clear to me. How is this expected to be used in an environment like Sun's, where network printers are managed by an IT department and added to the NIS maps? Along the same lines, should this project be discovering new printers from the NIS map, too (or should there be a project to do so)? > HAL device tree at /org/freedesktop/hal/devices/network_attached/{addr}. Your example gives {addr} as being an IPv4 dotted quad, replacing the dots with underscores. Is there any reason to believe that IPv6 devices would be discovered and placed here? Is there any sense of a uuid that might enable the system to recognize when a printer changes its IP address (presumably some use DHCP)? Danek From Norm.Jacobs@sun.com Wed Aug 29 13:55:55 2007 Received: from newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (newsunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.245]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l7TKts4f025549 for ; Wed, 29 Aug 2007 13:55:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l7TKqnRU020699; Wed, 29 Aug 2007 14:52:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JNJ00307ZCQUH00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 29 Aug 2007 13:53:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from printing.Eng.Sun.COM ([129.146.178.26]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JNJ0039ZZCQHJ20@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 29 Aug 2007 13:53:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from snappy.SNAPCon.COM (punchin-jacobs.SFBay.Sun.COM [10.7.251.237]) by printing.Eng.Sun.COM (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l7TKriGb012732; Wed, 29 Aug 2007 13:53:45 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 15:51:52 -0500 From: Norm Jacobs Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/499 Automatic discovery of network attached printers In-reply-to: <18133.52884.802810.152560@gargle.gargle.HOWL> To: James Carlson Cc: Artem Kachitchkine , PSARC-ext@sun.com Message-id: <46D5DC68.8060603@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <46D5C357.7080900@sun.com> <18133.52884.802810.152560@gargle.gargle.HOWL> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.4 (X11/20070730) Status: RO Content-Length: 3284 James Carlson wrote: > Artem Kachitchkine writes: > >> In order to better support these devices, this case seeks to extend the >> current HAL offering by adding a network attached device discovery >> service addon module and a probe module to probe network attached >> printers for identifying data. These modules will be connected to HAL >> via .fdi files. >> > > Just to clarify: we're only discovering printers on the network. If > we have a printer (attached via some other method, such as USB), we > won't be advertising that device to others, right? > That is correct. > >> Since virtually all network attached printers (or attachment devices) >> seem to support SNMP v1, the initial implementation will support an >> SNMP_GET broadcast mechanism for device discovery. The SNMP discovery >> method will use the following SMF service instance/properties, and >> D-BUS methods/arguments >> > > I didn't see a reference here to RFC 1759 or 3805. Will this project > use any of the standardized Printer MIB interfaces, or does it only > support the enumerated vendor MIB entries and Host Resources? > The Printer-MIB prtInputVendorName, prtInputModel, prtInputSerialNumber, and prtInputDescription didn't appear to be in use in the printers that I tried so I took them out. I can add them back in as a fallback. That will add SNMPv2-SMI::mib-2.43.8.2.1.14 Committed Printer MIB Manufacturer SNMPv2-SMI::mib-2.43.8.2.1.15 Committed Printer MIB Model SNMPv2-SMI::mib-2.43.8.2.1.17 Committed Printer MIB Serial Number SNMPv2-SMI::mib-2.43.8.2.1.18 Committed Printer MIB Description To the Imported interfaces. > What about Avahi? > Most of the printers that I have come across don't support mDNS. A couple of the newer ones that I have tested with do. I am looking at incorporating it as a discovery method. mDNS support should introduce a relatively small incremental change to this case to import the necessary interfaces and introduce an interface to control the discovery method. >> svc:/network/device-discovery:snmp org.freedesktop.Hal.Device. >> > > Enabled or disabled by default? And under what system profile? > Disabled by default. > >> interval specifies the number of seconds to wait between active SNMP >> scans. community specifies the SNMP community string to use in >> SNMP_GET requests. network specifies the network broadcast address to >> use in the SNMP_GET request. >> > > What's the default for config/network? > > Why does that need to be specified anyway? You should be able to use > SIOCGIF* ioctls to get every bit of information needed to perform > broadcast-based queries. > The default is currently all 1s, but could be auto-detected. The reason I put in config/network was to allow for the possibility of limiting the scope. > >> libnetsnmp Stable Core SNMP library >> > > Nit: should be Committed. > > >> PSARC/2006/467 Printers Devfs Events >> > > How is this related to devfs? (Is it just because of the reference to > USB printers, or is there something deeper here?) > It's not related to devfs. This is only because of the reference to USB printer support. From carlsonj@phorcys.east.sun.com Wed Aug 29 14:22:33 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l7TLMWuq026192 for ; Wed, 29 Aug 2007 14:22:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l7TLJj2e027704; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 05:19:49 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JNK00F010KY7O00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 29 Aug 2007 15:19:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com ([129.148.174.143]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JNK005Y80KXMCA0@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 29 Aug 2007 15:19:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l7TLJjA5112881; Wed, 29 Aug 2007 17:19:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from carlsonj@localhost) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1/Submit) id l7TLJjnJ112878; Wed, 29 Aug 2007 17:19:45 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 17:19:45 -0400 From: James Carlson Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/499 Automatic discovery of network attached printers In-reply-to: <46D5DC68.8060603@Sun.COM> To: Norm Jacobs Cc: Artem Kachitchkine , PSARC-ext@sun.com Message-id: <18133.58097.62444.439539@gargle.gargle.HOWL> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: VM 7.01 under Emacs 21.3.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <46D5C357.7080900@sun.com> <18133.52884.802810.152560@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <46D5DC68.8060603@Sun.COM> Status: RO Content-Length: 2416 Norm Jacobs writes: > James Carlson wrote: > > I didn't see a reference here to RFC 1759 or 3805. Will this project > > use any of the standardized Printer MIB interfaces, or does it only > > support the enumerated vendor MIB entries and Host Resources? > > > The Printer-MIB prtInputVendorName, prtInputModel, prtInputSerialNumber, > and prtInputDescription didn't appear to be in use in the printers that > I tried so I took them out. I can add them back in as a fallback. That > will add OK. I did some looking at some competitive products, and it seems that others are querying those values. Whether they work on printers we find interesting is perhaps another matter. > > What about Avahi? > > > Most of the printers that I have come across don't support mDNS. A > couple of the newer ones that I have tested with do. I am looking at > incorporating it as a discovery method. mDNS support should introduce a > relatively small incremental change to this case to import the necessary > interfaces and introduce an interface to control the discovery method. That seems reasonable. I was just surprised at the absence of any mention, as this was (at one point) the direction we were going for network discovery. Another source of printer discovery would be DHCP. > >> svc:/network/device-discovery:snmp org.freedesktop.Hal.Device. > >> > > > > Enabled or disabled by default? And under what system profile? > > > Disabled by default. You might want it to be enabled when configured for generic_open operation. > > Why does that need to be specified anyway? You should be able to use > > SIOCGIF* ioctls to get every bit of information needed to perform > > broadcast-based queries. > > > The default is currently all 1s, but could be auto-detected. The reason > I put in config/network was to allow for the possibility of limiting the > scope. Using all-ones though probably won't work as well as expected on multihomed systems. Trolling through the interface list will be more reliable. There's probably also a relationship here between this case and NWAM ... but I'm not sure exactly what that would be. Have you been in touch with them? -- James Carlson, Solaris Networking Sun Microsystems / 1 Network Drive 71.232W Vox +1 781 442 2084 MS UBUR02-212 / Burlington MA 01803-2757 42.496N Fax +1 781 442 1677 From Norm.Jacobs@sun.com Wed Aug 29 14:24:04 2007 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l7TLO49A026207 for ; Wed, 29 Aug 2007 14:24:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l7TLLNXo026528; Wed, 29 Aug 2007 14:21:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JNK0062J0NNG300@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 29 Aug 2007 14:21:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from printing.Eng.Sun.COM ([129.146.178.26]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JNK003620N8HJ90@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 29 Aug 2007 14:21:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from snappy.SNAPCon.COM (punchin-jacobs.SFBay.Sun.COM [10.7.251.237]) by printing.Eng.Sun.COM (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l7TLLdvl012772; Wed, 29 Aug 2007 14:21:39 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 16:19:46 -0500 From: Norm Jacobs Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/499 Automatic discovery of network attached printers In-reply-to: <20070829204256.GU13350@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> To: Danek Duvall Cc: PSARC-ext@sun.com, Artem Kachitchkine Message-id: <46D5E2F2.9060602@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <46D5C357.7080900@sun.com> <20070829204256.GU13350@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.4 (X11/20070730) Status: RO Content-Length: 2699 Danek Duvall wrote: >> Network Device Discovery >> ------------------------ >> >> Actual network device discovery will be handled by the HAL addon module >> named hald-addon-network-discovery. This module will be tied into the >> HAL device tree at /org/freedesktop/hal/devices/network_attached by >> configuration stored in a HAL configuration file, >> /etc/hal/fdi/policy/10osvendor/10-network-attached.fdi. At startup, >> this module will claim the org.freedesktop.Hal.Device.NetworkDiscovery >> > > All these names (as well as the SMF method) don't include "printer" in > them. Does this mean that they're more generic than that? It seems like > that might be the case from some of the rest of your material, but it's not > entirely clear to me. > The hald-addon-network-discovery module could be used to detect other types of network attached devices, like scanners or storage, but it is specifically looking for printers. The hald-probe-network-printer module is tied to printers and only looks for printer specific data on the device it's probing. > How is this expected to be used in an environment like Sun's, where network > printers are managed by an IT department and added to the NIS maps? > It's not. In a managed environment, like the SWAN, you would probably turn this off and use the network name service (or discovery method specific to print queues) to locate existing queues on the network > Along the same lines, should this project be discovering new printers from > the NIS map, too (or should there be a project to do so)? > We are looking at augmenting the discovery of print queues to support a more ad hoc mechanism separate from this project. > >> HAL device tree at /org/freedesktop/hal/devices/network_attached/{addr}. >> > > Your example gives {addr} as being an IPv4 dotted quad, replacing the dots > with underscores. Is there any reason to believe that IPv6 devices would > be discovered and placed here? There is no reason that IPv6 devices can't be discovered and placed here. Well, except that I can't seem to find any printers that support IPv6. > Is there any sense of a uuid that might > enable the system to recognize when a printer changes its IP address > (presumably some use DHCP)? > The printers are uniquely identified by a serial number when one can be retrieved from it. Some of my earlier prototype code generated a unique ID based on the MAC address when a serial number wasn't available from the device. I had originally used this unique id instead of {addr} in the HAL device tree and switched to {addr}. I can see some value in using something more static than IP addr like MAC addr. -Norm From danek.duvall@sun.com Wed Aug 29 14:44:34 2007 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l7TLiYt9026894 for ; Wed, 29 Aug 2007 14:44:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l7TLftxA007001 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-ext@sun.com>; Wed, 29 Aug 2007 14:41:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JNK008011LVI200@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Wed, 29 Aug 2007 14:41:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sfbaymail2sca.sfbay.sun.com ([129.145.155.42]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JNK003O91LVHJC0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Wed, 29 Aug 2007 14:41:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zruty.sfbay.sun.com (zruty.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.168.40]) by sfbaymail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.10/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l7TLfq2l013928; Wed, 29 Aug 2007 14:41:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zruty.sfbay.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zruty.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l7TLeZqH024352; Wed, 29 Aug 2007 14:40:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from dduvall@localhost) by zruty.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1/Submit) id l7TLeZga024351; Wed, 29 Aug 2007 14:40:35 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 14:40:35 -0700 From: Danek Duvall Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/499 Automatic discovery of network attached printers In-reply-to: <46D5E2F2.9060602@Sun.COM> To: Norm Jacobs Cc: PSARC-ext@sun.com, Artem Kachitchkine Message-id: <20070829214035.GA24251@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <46D5C357.7080900@sun.com> <20070829204256.GU13350@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <46D5E2F2.9060602@Sun.COM> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.16 (2007-06-27) Status: RO Content-Length: 2242 On Wed, Aug 29, 2007 at 04:19:46PM -0500, Norm Jacobs wrote: > The hald-addon-network-discovery module could be used to detect other types > of network attached devices, like scanners or storage, but it is > specifically looking for printers. The hald-probe-network-printer module > is tied to printers and only looks for printer specific data on the device > it's probing. Okay. Isn't it strange, then, that you're assigning the Printer Management profile to the SMF service instances when those instances could be discovering things other than Printers? Would "Device Management" be more appropriate? Or would it be preferable to restructure the service so that the device types are the instance names, and the discovery protocols are properties on those instances? (Or something like that.) >> How is this expected to be used in an environment like Sun's, where >> network printers are managed by an IT department and added to the NIS >> maps? > > It's not. In a managed environment, like the SWAN, you would probably turn > this off and use the network name service (or discovery method specific to > print queues) to locate existing queues on the network You said in your reply to Jim that the service would be off by default. How would a user in a non-managed environment know to turn it on? Is there anything you can do to make this more automagic? Maybe based on whether the printers map is empty? > We are looking at augmenting the discovery of print queues to support a > more ad hoc mechanism separate from this project. Cool. > The printers are uniquely identified by a serial number when one can be > retrieved from it. Some of my earlier prototype code generated a unique ID > based on the MAC address when a serial number wasn't available from the > device. I had originally used this unique id instead of {addr} in the HAL > device tree and switched to {addr}. I can see some value in using > something more static than IP addr like MAC addr. If you can uniquely identify by serial number in some large percentage of the printers out there, that's probably good enough -- I bet people are more likely to recognize a printer by IP address than MAC address, if they need to get down to it. Danek From John.Plocher@sun.com Wed Aug 29 14:59:31 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l7TLxVj0027631 for ; Wed, 29 Aug 2007 14:59:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l7TLujNv026920 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-ext@sun.com>; Wed, 29 Aug 2007 22:56:51 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JNK00A012AP1700@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Wed, 29 Aug 2007 14:56:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sca-es-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.43.133]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JNK0031G2APHJF0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Wed, 29 Aug 2007 14:56:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fe-sfbay-10.sun.com ([192.18.43.129]) by sca-es-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l7TLunn4011360 for ; Wed, 29 Aug 2007 14:56:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.fe-sfbay-10.sun.com by fe-sfbay-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0JNK00A0129LYE00@fe-sfbay-10.sun.com> (original mail from John.Plocher@Sun.COM) for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Wed, 29 Aug 2007 14:56:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [129.146.58.87] by fe-sfbay-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0JNK007BZ2ABQI10@fe-sfbay-10.sun.com>; Wed, 29 Aug 2007 14:56:35 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 14:56:24 -0700 From: John Plocher Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/499 Automatic discovery of network attached printers In-reply-to: <20070829214035.GA24251@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> Sender: John.Plocher@sun.com To: Danek Duvall Cc: Norm Jacobs , PSARC-ext@sun.com, Artem Kachitchkine Message-id: <46D5EB88.9090607@Sun.Com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <46D5C357.7080900@sun.com> <20070829204256.GU13350@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <46D5E2F2.9060602@Sun.COM> <20070829214035.GA24251@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.12 (Macintosh/20070509) Status: RO Content-Length: 785 Danek Duvall wrote: > If you can uniquely identify by serial number in some large percentage of > the printers out there, that's probably good enough -- I bet people are > more likely to recognize a printer by IP address than MAC address, if they > need to get down to it. The printers found automagically by my intel-mac show their MAC address, though this may be more due to it being in the printer's default name property (lexmark, hp...) In a managed env like Sun's, it is still useful/desirable to have network autodiscovery: The NIS maps have all 5,000 printers in them, I drop into a remote office and need to print, network discovery shows me the 3 printers that are somehow "near" me, making it rather intuitive which ones to use... -John From danek.duvall@sun.com Wed Aug 29 15:12:22 2007 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l7TMCMfb027927 for ; Wed, 29 Aug 2007 15:12:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l7TM9hEF008971 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-ext@Sun.COM>; Wed, 29 Aug 2007 15:09:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JNK00I032W6V400@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@Sun.COM (ORCPT PSARC-ext@Sun.COM); Wed, 29 Aug 2007 15:09:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sfbaymail2sca.sfbay.sun.com ([129.145.155.42]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JNK006A32W519E0@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@Sun.COM (ORCPT PSARC-ext@Sun.COM); Wed, 29 Aug 2007 15:09:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zruty.sfbay.sun.com (zruty.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.168.40]) by sfbaymail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.10/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l7TM9d6b028821; Wed, 29 Aug 2007 15:09:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zruty.sfbay.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zruty.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l7TM8MAi024613; Wed, 29 Aug 2007 15:08:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from dduvall@localhost) by zruty.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1/Submit) id l7TM8MGv024612; Wed, 29 Aug 2007 15:08:22 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 15:08:22 -0700 From: Danek Duvall Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/499 Automatic discovery of network attached printers In-reply-to: <46D5EB88.9090607@Sun.Com> To: John Plocher Cc: Norm Jacobs , PSARC-ext@sun.com, Artem Kachitchkine Message-id: <20070829220822.GB24251@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <46D5C357.7080900@sun.com> <20070829204256.GU13350@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <46D5E2F2.9060602@Sun.COM> <20070829214035.GA24251@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <46D5EB88.9090607@Sun.Com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.16 (2007-06-27) Status: RO Content-Length: 487 On Wed, Aug 29, 2007 at 02:56:24PM -0700, John Plocher wrote: > The NIS maps have all 5,000 printers in them, > I drop into a remote office and need to print, > network discovery shows me the 3 printers that > are somehow "near" me, making it rather > intuitive which ones to use... That raises another good question -- in our environment, would all 5000 printers show up, or some subset of those? If the latter, what subset, and how is that determined? Danek From John.Plocher@sun.com Wed Aug 29 15:22:11 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l7TMMAFR028092 for ; Wed, 29 Aug 2007 15:22:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l7TMJLIZ022730 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-ext@sun.com>; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 06:19:30 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JNK00J033CFGY00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@Sun.COM); Wed, 29 Aug 2007 15:19:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sca-es-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.43.132]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JNK0065S3CE13D0@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@Sun.COM); Wed, 29 Aug 2007 15:19:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fe-sfbay-10.sun.com ([192.18.43.129]) by sca-es-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l7TMJQQM012569 for ; Wed, 29 Aug 2007 15:19:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.fe-sfbay-10.sun.com by fe-sfbay-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0JNK003010Z9D800@fe-sfbay-10.sun.com> (original mail from John.Plocher@Sun.COM) for PSARC-ext@Sun.COM (ORCPT PSARC-ext@Sun.COM); Wed, 29 Aug 2007 15:19:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [129.146.58.87] by fe-sfbay-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0JNK007NF3C7QIA0@fe-sfbay-10.sun.com>; Wed, 29 Aug 2007 15:19:19 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 15:19:09 -0700 From: John Plocher Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/499 Automatic discovery of network attached printers In-reply-to: <20070829220822.GB24251@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> Sender: John.Plocher@sun.com To: Danek Duvall Cc: Norm Jacobs , PSARC-ext@sun.com, Artem Kachitchkine Message-id: <46D5F0DD.10208@Sun.Com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <46D5C357.7080900@sun.com> <20070829204256.GU13350@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <46D5E2F2.9060602@Sun.COM> <20070829214035.GA24251@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <46D5EB88.9090607@Sun.Com> <20070829220822.GB24251@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.12 (Macintosh/20070509) Status: RO Content-Length: 492 Danek Duvall wrote: > in our environment, would all 5000 > printers show up, or some subset of those? I assume that, like today, if the user has a ~/.printers file, its "all:" entry will be used. If this is done naively, it could completely hide any auto-discovered printers... I'm a bit worried about the "out of the box" use-case; the usability of the system seems to be directly tied to this being on, yet network secure-by-default means that it probably should be off... -John From sommerfeld@Sun.COM Wed Aug 29 15:37:24 2007 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l7TMbO5n028248 for ; Wed, 29 Aug 2007 15:37:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l7TMYi53016043; Wed, 29 Aug 2007 15:34:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JNK00D1541XQC00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 29 Aug 2007 15:34:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dm-east-01.east.sun.com ([129.148.9.192]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JNK00AG241VF630@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 29 Aug 2007 15:34:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thunk.east.sun.com (thunk.East.Sun.COM [129.148.174.66]) by dm-east-01.east.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l7TMYc4k038382; Wed, 29 Aug 2007 18:34:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [IPv6:::1] (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by thunk.east.sun.com (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l7TMYc9W005798; Wed, 29 Aug 2007 18:34:38 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 18:34:37 -0400 From: Bill Sommerfeld Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/499 Automatic discovery of network attached printers In-reply-to: <20070829214035.GA24251@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> To: Danek Duvall Cc: Norm Jacobs , PSARC-ext@Sun.COM, Artem Kachitchkine Message-id: <1188426877.3850.89.camel@thunk> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.10.2 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <46D5C357.7080900@sun.com> <20070829204256.GU13350@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <46D5E2F2.9060602@Sun.COM> <20070829214035.GA24251@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> Status: RO Content-Length: 1220 On Wed, 2007-08-29 at 14:40 -0700, Danek Duvall wrote: > If you can uniquely identify by serial number in some large percentage of > the printers out there, that's probably good enough -- I bet people are > more likely to recognize a printer by IP address than MAC address, if they > need to get down to it. Given the diversity of network-attached printers out there, whatever we do, we're going to be stuck with messy heuristics. I'd rather not throw long strings of numbers into the mix until more human-friendly identifiers are exhausted. At the smallest scale (home office/small office), people are most likely to recognize printers by make & model because if there is more than one printer, they will be of different types. At the other end of the scale, the two printers nearest me within Sun's burlington office both have SNMP sysName values set sensibly (matching the name on the label pasted to the outside of the printer). Both have reasonable looking sysLocation values containing sun building codes and room numbers. Unfortunately one of them is wrong (right building, wrong floor...) But I think we could do better than to force users to pick printers by mac address or ip address. - Bill From boyd-adamson@usa.net Wed Aug 29 15:37:49 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l7TMbms0028260 for ; Wed, 29 Aug 2007 15:37:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l7TMYwck009877; Wed, 29 Aug 2007 23:35:05 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JNK00K0Z42E7600@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 29 Aug 2007 15:35:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com ([192.18.98.36]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JNK0064942D1EF0@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 29 Aug 2007 15:35:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay22.sun.com (relay22.sun.com [192.12.251.34] (may be forged)) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l7TMN7jY011870; Wed, 29 Aug 2007 22:35:01 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mms24es.sun.com ([150.143.232.74] [150.143.232.74]) by relay22i.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-294361; Wed, 29 Aug 2007 22:35:01 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay23.sun.com (relay23.sun.com [192.12.251.54]) by mms24es.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-222710; Wed, 29 Aug 2007 22:35:01 +0000 (Z) Received: from ipmail03.adl2.internode.on.net ([203.16.214.135] [203.16.214.135]) by relay23i.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-1700833; Wed, 29 Aug 2007 22:35:01 +0000 (Z) Received: from ppp157-138.static.internode.on.net (HELO whirlpool) ([150.101.157.138]) by ipmail03.adl2.internode.on.net with ESMTP; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 08:04:50 +0930 Received: from eddy.tactio.lan ([10.11.12.2] ident=brontitall) by whirlpool with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1IQW7d-0002nD-00; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 08:34:49 +1000 Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2007 08:34:49 +1000 From: Boyd Adamson Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/499 Automatic discovery of network attached printers In-reply-to: <18133.58097.62444.439539@gargle.gargle.HOWL> To: James Carlson Cc: Norm Jacobs , PSARC-ext@sun.com, Artem Kachitchkine Message-id: <877ineufzq.fsf@eddy.tactio.lan> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Ao8CAK+R1UaWZZ2K/2dsb2JhbAA X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.19,323,1183300200"; d="scan'208";a="139954793" References: <46D5C357.7080900@sun.com> <18133.52884.802810.152560@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <46D5DC68.8060603@Sun.COM> <18133.58097.62444.439539@gargle.gargle.HOWL> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110006 (No Gnus v0.6) Emacs/21.4 (gnu/linux) Status: RO Content-Length: 838 James Carlson writes: > Norm Jacobs writes: >> James Carlson wrote: >> > What about Avahi? >> > >> Most of the printers that I have come across don't support mDNS. A >> couple of the newer ones that I have tested with do. I am looking at >> incorporating it as a discovery method. mDNS support should >> introduce a relatively small incremental change to this case to >> import the necessary interfaces and introduce an interface to control >> the discovery method. > > That seems reasonable. I was just surprised at the absence of any > mention, as this was (at one point) the direction we were going for > network discovery. I believe it's the way Apple are going too, and I think they're working on convincing printer manufacturers to use more mDNS. It would be nice to piggy-back on that work. Boyd From danek.duvall@sun.com Wed Aug 29 15:44:08 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l7TMi7eS028326 for ; Wed, 29 Aug 2007 15:44:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l7TMfNND001714; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 06:41:27 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JNK00K0B4CZIW00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 29 Aug 2007 15:41:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sfbaymail1sca.SFBay.Sun.COM ([129.145.154.35]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JNK0065A4CZ13F0@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 29 Aug 2007 15:41:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zruty.sfbay.sun.com (zruty.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.168.40]) by sfbaymail1sca.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l7TMfLbZ010140; Wed, 29 Aug 2007 15:41:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zruty.sfbay.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zruty.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l7TMe4IB024792; Wed, 29 Aug 2007 15:40:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from dduvall@localhost) by zruty.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1/Submit) id l7TMe3jn024791; Wed, 29 Aug 2007 15:40:03 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 15:40:03 -0700 From: Danek Duvall Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/499 Automatic discovery of network attached printers In-reply-to: <1188426877.3850.89.camel@thunk> To: Bill Sommerfeld Cc: Norm Jacobs , PSARC-ext@sun.com, Artem Kachitchkine Message-id: <20070829224003.GC24251@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <46D5C357.7080900@sun.com> <20070829204256.GU13350@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <46D5E2F2.9060602@Sun.COM> <20070829214035.GA24251@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <1188426877.3850.89.camel@thunk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.16 (2007-06-27) Status: RO Content-Length: 956 On Wed, Aug 29, 2007 at 06:34:37PM -0400, Bill Sommerfeld wrote: > But I think we could do better than to force users to pick printers by > mac address or ip address. That's not what this is about -- I think that as long as a human-readable name is available, that will be used on the usual label a printer gets when presented to a human being. I was wondering more about when a printer disappears from one IP address and gets added again with another -- say, the DHCP lease times out, and it's not statically assigned -- will the system be able to recognize that it's the same printer, only under a different IP address, and do whatever reconfig is necessary without the user ever needing to know about the change. (Unless they go diving, in which case they get what they deserve. :) It sounds like the serial number will be used for that if it's available, falling back to the IP. And if the MAC address is the fallback, it might be better. Danek From Norm.Jacobs@sun.com Wed Aug 29 15:44:58 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l7TMiveg028416 for ; Wed, 29 Aug 2007 15:44:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l7TMgAJ6012973; Wed, 29 Aug 2007 23:42:14 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JNK00K034ECK100@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 29 Aug 2007 15:42:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from printing.Eng.Sun.COM ([129.146.178.26]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JNK0069Q4EB13F0@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 29 Aug 2007 15:42:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from snappy.SNAPCon.COM (punchin-jacobs.SFBay.Sun.COM [10.7.251.237]) by printing.Eng.Sun.COM (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l7TMggkS012873; Wed, 29 Aug 2007 15:42:43 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 17:40:49 -0500 From: Norm Jacobs Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/499 Automatic discovery of network attached printers In-reply-to: <1188426877.3850.89.camel@thunk> To: Bill Sommerfeld Cc: Danek Duvall , PSARC-ext@sun.com, Artem Kachitchkine Message-id: <46D5F5F1.5010404@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <46D5C357.7080900@sun.com> <20070829204256.GU13350@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <46D5E2F2.9060602@Sun.COM> <20070829214035.GA24251@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <1188426877.3850.89.camel@thunk> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.4 (X11/20070730) Status: RO Content-Length: 1554 Bill Sommerfeld wrote: > On Wed, 2007-08-29 at 14:40 -0700, Danek Duvall wrote: > >> If you can uniquely identify by serial number in some large percentage of >> the printers out there, that's probably good enough -- I bet people are >> more likely to recognize a printer by IP address than MAC address, if they >> need to get down to it. >> > > Given the diversity of network-attached printers out there, whatever we > do, we're going to be stuck with messy heuristics. I'd rather not throw > long strings of numbers into the mix until more human-friendly > identifiers are exhausted. > > At the smallest scale (home office/small office), people are most likely > to recognize printers by make & model because if there is more than one > printer, they will be of different types. > > At the other end of the scale, the two printers nearest me within Sun's > burlington office both have SNMP sysName values set sensibly (matching > the name on the label pasted to the outside of the printer). Both have > reasonable looking sysLocation values containing sun building codes and > room numbers. Unfortunately one of them is wrong (right building, wrong > floor...) > > But I think we could do better than to force users to pick printers by > mac address or ip address. > The HAL device tree name is nothing more than a token that is virtually invisible to the user. The desktop component that actually uses the HAL device tree entries presents the user with the manufacturer, model, description information from the device. -Norm From Norm.Jacobs@Sun.COM Wed Aug 29 15:55:48 2007 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l7TMtl3v028964 for ; Wed, 29 Aug 2007 15:55:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l7TMr87g026859; Wed, 29 Aug 2007 15:53:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JNK00F134WKJL00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 29 Aug 2007 15:53:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from printing.Eng.Sun.COM ([129.146.178.26]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JNK00A8F4WIF850@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 29 Aug 2007 15:53:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from snappy.SNAPCon.COM (punchin-jacobs.SFBay.Sun.COM [10.7.251.237]) by printing.Eng.Sun.COM (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l7TMrbTO012898; Wed, 29 Aug 2007 15:53:37 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 17:51:44 -0500 From: Norm Jacobs Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/499 Automatic discovery of network attached printers In-reply-to: <20070829224003.GC24251@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> To: Danek Duvall Cc: Bill Sommerfeld , PSARC-ext@Sun.COM, Artem Kachitchkine Message-id: <46D5F880.5090404@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <46D5C357.7080900@sun.com> <20070829204256.GU13350@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <46D5E2F2.9060602@Sun.COM> <20070829214035.GA24251@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <1188426877.3850.89.camel@thunk> <20070829224003.GC24251@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.4 (X11/20070730) Status: RO Content-Length: 1371 Danek Duvall wrote: > On Wed, Aug 29, 2007 at 06:34:37PM -0400, Bill Sommerfeld wrote: > > >> But I think we could do better than to force users to pick printers by >> mac address or ip address. >> > > That's not what this is about -- I think that as long as a human-readable > name is available, that will be used on the usual label a printer gets when > presented to a human being. > > I was wondering more about when a printer disappears from one IP address > and gets added again with another -- say, the DHCP lease times out, and > it's not statically assigned -- will the system be able to recognize that > it's the same printer, only under a different IP address, and do whatever > reconfig is necessary without the user ever needing to know about the > change. (Unless they go diving, in which case they get what they deserve. :) > > It sounds like the serial number will be used for that if it's available, > falling back to the IP. And if the MAC address is the fallback, it might > be better. > When a printer changes IP address, it drops out of the HAL device tree and reappears at a new path in the tree with it's original serial number. If it doesn't have one, I don't currently fallback to anything, though I originally prototyped it to fallback to one based on MAC address, which should be static and unique to the device. -Norm From Norm.Jacobs@sun.com Wed Aug 29 16:07:49 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l7TN7mPd029309 for ; Wed, 29 Aug 2007 16:07:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l7TN4pR8011418; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 07:05:05 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JNK00L015GFOW00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 29 Aug 2007 16:05:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from printing.Eng.Sun.COM ([129.146.178.26]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JNK00KUG5GFTD00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 29 Aug 2007 16:05:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from snappy.SNAPCon.COM (punchin-jacobs.SFBay.Sun.COM [10.7.251.237]) by printing.Eng.Sun.COM (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l7TN5Xqk012918; Wed, 29 Aug 2007 16:05:34 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 18:03:40 -0500 From: Norm Jacobs Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/499 Automatic discovery of network attached printers In-reply-to: <46D5F0DD.10208@Sun.Com> To: John Plocher Cc: Danek Duvall , PSARC-ext@sun.com, Artem Kachitchkine Message-id: <46D5FB4C.2040400@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <46D5C357.7080900@sun.com> <20070829204256.GU13350@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <46D5E2F2.9060602@Sun.COM> <20070829214035.GA24251@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <46D5EB88.9090607@Sun.Com> <20070829220822.GB24251@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <46D5F0DD.10208@Sun.Com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.4 (X11/20070730) Status: RO Content-Length: 1485 John Plocher wrote: > Danek Duvall wrote: >> in our environment, would all 5000 >> printers show up, or some subset of those? > > > I assume that, like today, if the user has a ~/.printers file, > its "all:" entry will be used. If this is done naively, it could > completely hide any auto-discovered printers... > > I'm a bit worried about the "out of the box" use-case; the usability > of the system seems to be directly tied to this being on, yet network > secure-by-default means that it probably should be off... > The SWAN's 5000 printers that you are referring to are not physical printers, but queues "advertised" in the network name services. These queues are what you interact with when you print from the command line or desktop application. These queues are a software representation of a physical device out on the network. In the SWAN there are often at least two queues in the network name service per physical device. This is largely so that you could access features like the duplexers on the printers. (though that really isn't necessary) This case does not address advertisement or discovery of these queues. This case proposes to discover physical printers sitting out on the network so that queues can be created for them. I/We will be putting forth a separate case to deal with print queue advertisement/discovery in a more ad hoc manner so that we don't need to have 5000 print queue network maps and their associated problems. -Norm From John.Plocher@sun.com Wed Aug 29 16:10:16 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l7TNAFID029428 for ; Wed, 29 Aug 2007 16:10:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l7TN7XEj021861; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 00:07:35 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JNK00L0V5KLGU00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 29 Aug 2007 17:07:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sca-es-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.43.133]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JNK00JTH5KK6V10@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 29 Aug 2007 17:07:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: from fe-sfbay-10.sun.com ([192.18.43.129]) by sca-es-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l7TN7VXb019382; Wed, 29 Aug 2007 16:07:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.fe-sfbay-10.sun.com by fe-sfbay-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0JNK00A015AFJM00@fe-sfbay-10.sun.com> (original mail from John.Plocher@Sun.COM); Wed, 29 Aug 2007 16:07:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [129.146.58.87] by fe-sfbay-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0JNK004ZS5KF49D0@fe-sfbay-10.sun.com>; Wed, 29 Aug 2007 16:07:27 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 16:07:17 -0700 From: John Plocher Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/499 Automatic discovery of network attached printers In-reply-to: <1188426877.3850.89.camel@thunk> Sender: John.Plocher@sun.com To: Bill Sommerfeld Cc: Danek Duvall , Norm Jacobs , PSARC-ext@sun.com, Artem Kachitchkine Message-id: <46D5FC25.9000105@Sun.Com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <46D5C357.7080900@sun.com> <20070829204256.GU13350@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <46D5E2F2.9060602@Sun.COM> <20070829214035.GA24251@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <1188426877.3850.89.camel@thunk> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.12 (Macintosh/20070509) Status: RO Content-Length: 920 Bill Sommerfeld wrote: > But I think we could do better than to force users to pick printers by > mac address or ip address. Out of the box, my new HP printer had the name "HP Color Laserjet 3700 (BDB692)", my existing mono one said "HP Laserjet 2100", and the Lexmark had "LXK0DD9EE". I have not (and probably will never) bother to set any SNMP properties for them because the interface to do so is relatively cumbersome, so the printers' knowledge of their environment won't get changeed. If I was in a typical small office, chances are that we would have purchased many of these at the same time (preferred vendor...), leading to the situation whereby the only way of telling them apart is via the MAC address/serial number. Even if I was the sysadmin, I'd still need help discovering them the first time... Don't make things harder by making it impossible to do the logical-to-physical mapping.... -John From danek.duvall@sun.com Wed Aug 29 16:14:43 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l7TNEheY029638 for ; Wed, 29 Aug 2007 16:14:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l7TNC2VR023702 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-ext@sun.com>; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 00:12:03 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JNK00M075S15P00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Wed, 29 Aug 2007 16:12:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sfbaymail1sca.SFBay.Sun.COM ([129.145.154.35]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JNK00KXQ5S1T000@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Wed, 29 Aug 2007 16:12:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zruty.sfbay.sun.com (zruty.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.168.40]) by sfbaymail1sca.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l7TNBwWl025389; Wed, 29 Aug 2007 16:11:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zruty.sfbay.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zruty.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l7TNAfFx019441; Wed, 29 Aug 2007 16:10:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from dduvall@localhost) by zruty.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1/Submit) id l7TNAfU8019440; Wed, 29 Aug 2007 16:10:41 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 16:10:41 -0700 From: Danek Duvall Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/499 Automatic discovery of network attached printers In-reply-to: <46D5FB4C.2040400@Sun.COM> To: Norm Jacobs Cc: John Plocher , PSARC-ext@sun.com, Artem Kachitchkine Message-id: <20070829231041.GE24251@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <46D5C357.7080900@sun.com> <20070829204256.GU13350@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <46D5E2F2.9060602@Sun.COM> <20070829214035.GA24251@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <46D5EB88.9090607@Sun.Com> <20070829220822.GB24251@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <46D5F0DD.10208@Sun.Com> <46D5FB4C.2040400@Sun.COM> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.16 (2007-06-27) Status: RO Content-Length: 339 On Wed, Aug 29, 2007 at 06:03:40PM -0500, Norm Jacobs wrote: > The SWAN's 5000 printers that you are referring to are not physical > printers, but queues "advertised" in the network name services. But presumably a large number of those printers so represented are also network printers that would show up via snmp discovery, no? Danek From Norm.Jacobs@sun.com Wed Aug 29 16:44:47 2007 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l7TNiliU029953 for ; Wed, 29 Aug 2007 16:44:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l7TNg7iu004014; Wed, 29 Aug 2007 16:42:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JNK00007767BT00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 29 Aug 2007 17:42:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from printing.Eng.Sun.COM ([129.146.178.26]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JNK00J0D7666W30@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 29 Aug 2007 17:42:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: from snappy.SNAPCon.COM (punchin-jacobs.SFBay.Sun.COM [10.7.251.237]) by printing.Eng.Sun.COM (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l7TNgaEA012957; Wed, 29 Aug 2007 16:42:37 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 18:40:44 -0500 From: Norm Jacobs Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/499 Automatic discovery of network attached printers In-reply-to: <20070829231041.GE24251@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> To: Danek Duvall Cc: John Plocher , PSARC-ext@sun.com, Artem Kachitchkine Message-id: <46D603FC.2060601@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <46D5C357.7080900@sun.com> <20070829204256.GU13350@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <46D5E2F2.9060602@Sun.COM> <20070829214035.GA24251@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <46D5EB88.9090607@Sun.Com> <20070829220822.GB24251@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <46D5F0DD.10208@Sun.Com> <46D5FB4C.2040400@Sun.COM> <20070829231041.GE24251@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.4 (X11/20070730) Status: RO Content-Length: 429 Danek Duvall wrote: > On Wed, Aug 29, 2007 at 06:03:40PM -0500, Norm Jacobs wrote: > > >> The SWAN's 5000 printers that you are referring to are not physical >> printers, but queues "advertised" in the network name services. >> > > But presumably a large number of those printers so represented are also > network printers that would show up via snmp discovery, no? > Those on your subnet will show up. -Norm From Darren.Moffat@Sun.COM Thu Aug 30 02:36:51 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l7U9aopj010312 for ; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 02:36:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l7U9Y8Y6024376 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-ext@sun.com>; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 10:34:09 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JNK00405YKWL100@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Thu, 30 Aug 2007 02:34:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com ([129.156.42.5]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JNK00FU2YKV4HD0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Thu, 30 Aug 2007 02:34:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d1-emea-09.sun.com (d1-emea-09.sun.com [192.18.2.119]) by gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l7U9Y6sx021529 for ; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 09:34:06 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-emea-09.sun.com by d1-emea-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JNK00901YFJ0I00@d1-emea-09.sun.com> (original mail from Darren.Moffat@Sun.COM) for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Thu, 30 Aug 2007 10:34:06 +0100 (BST) Received: from [129.156.173.21] by d1-emea-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JNK00KAQYKTTR30@d1-emea-09.sun.com>; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 10:34:06 +0100 (BST) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2007 10:34:05 +0100 From: Darren J Moffat Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/499 Automatic discovery of network attached printers In-reply-to: <46D5F0DD.10208@Sun.Com> Sender: Darren.Moffat@Sun.COM To: John Plocher Cc: Danek Duvall , Norm Jacobs , PSARC-ext@Sun.COM, Artem Kachitchkine Message-id: <46D68F0D.2030308@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <46D5C357.7080900@sun.com> <20070829204256.GU13350@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <46D5E2F2.9060602@Sun.COM> <20070829214035.GA24251@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <46D5EB88.9090607@Sun.Com> <20070829220822.GB24251@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <46D5F0DD.10208@Sun.Com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.4 (X11/20070731) Status: RO Content-Length: 1370 John Plocher wrote: > Danek Duvall wrote: >> in our environment, would all 5000 >> printers show up, or some subset of those? > > > I assume that, like today, if the user has a ~/.printers file, > its "all:" entry will be used. If this is done naively, it could > completely hide any auto-discovered printers... > > I'm a bit worried about the "out of the box" use-case; the usability > of the system seems to be directly tied to this being on, yet network > secure-by-default means that it probably should be off... I'm not sure that secure-by-default does require that this be off. As I understand this case it is egress probing not a daemon listening of ingress requests. Secure-by-default for network services is mostly about the attack surface of the host so concentrates mostly on the ingress case. For example security-by-default has a lot to say about things like telnetd and friends being off by default but says nothing about disallowing outbound telnet(1). Closer to this case a host being a printer server is off by default but allowing printing to network printers is on. I may be missing something about how this case actually works but my reading of the materials didn't show that there as a daemon actively listening for incoming connections rather it was a service sending out probes and acting on the results. -- Darren J Moffat From sommerfeld@sun.com Thu Aug 30 06:32:33 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l7UDWWKT015123 for ; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 06:32:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l7UDTfm3028083; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 14:29:48 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JNL004039HM3I00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 07:29:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost.east.sun.com ([129.148.19.3]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JNL00KFG9HKLP90@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 07:29:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost.east.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.east.sun.com (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l7UDSoO4021067; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 09:28:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from sommerfeld@localhost) by localhost.east.sun.com (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1/Submit) id l7UDSoRs021066; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 09:28:50 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2007 09:28:50 -0400 From: Bill Sommerfeld Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/499 Automatic discovery of network attached printers In-reply-to: <46D68F0D.2030308@Sun.COM> To: Darren J Moffat Cc: John Plocher , Norm Jacobs , PSARC-ext@sun.com, Artem Kachitchkine , Danek Duvall Message-id: <1188480530.20503.80.camel@localhost> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.10.2 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <46D5C357.7080900@sun.com> <20070829204256.GU13350@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <46D5E2F2.9060602@Sun.COM> <20070829214035.GA24251@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <46D5EB88.9090607@Sun.Com> <20070829220822.GB24251@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <46D5F0DD.10208@Sun.Com> <46D68F0D.2030308@Sun.COM> X-Authentication-warning: localhost.east.sun.com: sommerfeld set sender to sommerfeld@sun.com using -f Status: RO Content-Length: 1039 On Thu, 2007-08-30 at 10:34 +0100, Darren J Moffat wrote: > I'm not sure that secure-by-default does require that this be off. As I > understand this case it is egress probing not a daemon listening of > ingress requests. So we're ok at the transport layer, but I think we also need an application-layer analysis. At least some of what people send to printers tends to be sensitive. So one critical question for a SbD analysis is how automatically-discovered printers turn into usable destinations for print jobs. So long as there is a administrative step needed to "move" a printer from a "I hear it's out there somewhere" to a "ready to print" state I think we're most of the way there. (and as a largely unrelated gripe, maybe I'm missing the trick but it seems like it would be clever to be able to configure a user account or system so that printers listed in NIS or LDAP were merely "out there" so that gui print menus wouldn't take forever to enumerate printers before putting up an unusably long list). - Bill From Norm.Jacobs@sun.com Thu Aug 30 07:26:41 2007 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l7UEQeZS015856 for ; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 07:26:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l7UENvZ0012924; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 07:23:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JNL00711BZYDY00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 07:23:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from printing.Eng.Sun.COM ([129.146.178.26]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JNL00EX0BZUMSC0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 07:23:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from snappy.SNAPCon.COM (punchin-jacobs.SFBay.Sun.COM [10.7.251.237]) by printing.Eng.Sun.COM (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l7UEOOuJ013446; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 07:24:25 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2007 09:22:30 -0500 From: Norm Jacobs Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/499 Automatic discovery of network attached printers In-reply-to: <1188480530.20503.80.camel@localhost> To: Bill Sommerfeld Cc: Darren J Moffat , John Plocher , PSARC-ext@sun.com, Artem Kachitchkine , Danek Duvall Message-id: <46D6D2A6.60404@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <46D5C357.7080900@sun.com> <20070829204256.GU13350@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <46D5E2F2.9060602@Sun.COM> <20070829214035.GA24251@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <46D5EB88.9090607@Sun.Com> <20070829220822.GB24251@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <46D5F0DD.10208@Sun.Com> <46D68F0D.2030308@Sun.COM> <1188480530.20503.80.camel@localhost> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.4 (X11/20070730) Status: RO Content-Length: 1847 Bill Sommerfeld wrote: > On Thu, 2007-08-30 at 10:34 +0100, Darren J Moffat wrote: > >> I'm not sure that secure-by-default does require that this be off. As I >> understand this case it is egress probing not a daemon listening of >> ingress requests. >> > > So we're ok at the transport layer, but I think we also need an > application-layer analysis. > > At least some of what people send to printers tends to be sensitive. > So one critical question for a SbD analysis is how > automatically-discovered printers turn into usable destinations for > print jobs. So long as there is a administrative step needed to "move" > a printer from a "I hear it's out there somewhere" to a "ready to print" > state I think we're most of the way there. > There is. The printers are discovered and placed in the HAL device tree. From there, there is a desktop applet that looks for changes to the HAL device tree and prompts the user to create a queue. If you are running build 69 or later and plug in a USB printer you will get the idea. Or you can take a look at http://www.opensolaris.org/os/project/presto/Movie/ > (and as a largely unrelated gripe, maybe I'm missing the trick but it > seems like it would be clever to be able to configure a user account or > system so that printers listed in NIS or LDAP were merely "out there" so > that gui print menus wouldn't take forever to enumerate printers before > putting up an unusably long list). > You can limit the current list of queues by adding an "_all" entry to ${HOME}/.printers, but that may not be ideal for everyone. As a result, we are looking at putting forth a separate case to deal with advertising and discovering print queues so that you get more reasonable (and relevant) lists of available queues than the 5000 queues in the name service. -Norm From gww@eng.sun.com Thu Aug 30 07:54:36 2007 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l7UEsa4K016481 for ; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 07:54:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l7UEptTJ023030 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-ext@Sun.COM>; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 07:51:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JNL0081FDAHYR00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@Sun.COM (ORCPT PSARC-ext@Sun.COM); Thu, 30 Aug 2007 08:51:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from engmail3mpk.sfbay.Sun.COM ([129.146.11.26]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JNL007YEDAGTE00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@Sun.COM (ORCPT PSARC-ext@Sun.COM); Thu, 30 Aug 2007 08:51:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from marduk.eng.sun.com (marduk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.108.224]) by engmail3mpk.sfbay.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l7UEpmW2011871; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 07:51:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from marduk.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by marduk.eng.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l7UEqhDr005676; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 07:52:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from gww@localhost) by marduk.eng.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.11/Submit) id l7UEqheP005675; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 07:52:43 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2007 07:52:43 -0700 (PDT) From: Gary Winiger Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/499 Automatic discovery of network attached printers To: John.Plocher@sun.com, Darren.Moffat@sun.com Cc: Danek.Duvall@sun.com, Norm.Jacobs@sun.com, PSARC-ext@sun.com, Artem.Kachitchkin@sun.com Message-id: <200708301452.l7UEqheP005675@marduk.eng.sun.com> Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 Status: RO Content-Length: 649 > > I'm a bit worried about the "out of the box" use-case; the usability > > of the system seems to be directly tied to this being on, yet network > > secure-by-default means that it probably should be off... > > I'm not sure that secure-by-default does require that this be off. As I > understand this case it is egress probing not a daemon listening of > ingress requests. The SMF policy requires that the manifest be delivered with services disabled. The SBD policy requires listening services be administratively enabled, or listen local only. Non-listening services (outbound only) may be enabled in the default profile(s). Gary.. From gww@eng.sun.com Thu Aug 30 08:08:08 2007 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l7UF88MK016667 for ; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 08:08:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l7UF5NZh020367; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 08:05:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JNL00931DX2SJ00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 09:05:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from engmail3mpk.sfbay.Sun.COM ([129.146.11.26]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JNL0079QDX1TG20@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 09:05:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from marduk.eng.sun.com (marduk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.108.224]) by engmail3mpk.sfbay.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l7UF5L0w014153; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 08:05:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from marduk.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by marduk.eng.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l7UF6Fm7005688; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 08:06:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from gww@localhost) by marduk.eng.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.11/Submit) id l7UF6Fhb005687; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 08:06:15 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2007 08:06:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Gary Winiger Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/499 Automatic discovery of network attached printers To: Darren.Moffat@Sun.COM, sommerfeld@Sun.COM Cc: John.Plocher@Sun.COM, Norm.Jacobs@Sun.COM, PSARC-ext@Sun.COM, Artem.Kachitchkin@Sun.COM, Danek.Duvall@Sun.COM Message-id: <200708301506.l7UF6Fhb005687@marduk.eng.sun.com> Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 Status: RO Content-Length: 989 > So we're ok at the transport layer, but I think we also need an > application-layer analysis. I suspect even with TX. > At least some of what people send to printers tends to be sensitive. And for TX, I'd hope this is covered. How does this project relate to TX? Does HAL run in each of the labeled zones and pick up network printers at that label? How would a TX machine advertise it's a network host for a printer? Or is this project only related to directly attached to the network printers? > (and as a largely unrelated gripe, maybe I'm missing the trick but it > seems like it would be clever to be able to configure a user account or > system so that printers listed in NIS or LDAP were merely "out there" so > that gui print menus wouldn't take forever to enumerate printers before > putting up an unusably long list). ~/.printers I'm told, though I've not gotten it correctly configured, so maybe there are bugs in the old software that I'm using. Gary.. From carlsonj@phorcys.east.sun.com Thu Aug 30 08:53:03 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l7UFr2aB017496 for ; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 08:53:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l7UFoDOm014824; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 23:50:16 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JNL0070RFZQ9R00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 08:50:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com ([129.148.174.143]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JNL005LMFZQWA20@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 08:50:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l7UFoDtK114943; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 11:50:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from carlsonj@localhost) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1/Submit) id l7UFoDUq114940; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 11:50:13 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2007 11:50:13 -0400 From: James Carlson Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/499 Automatic discovery of network attached printers In-reply-to: <200708301452.l7UEqheP005675@marduk.eng.sun.com> To: Gary Winiger Cc: John.Plocher@sun.com, Darren.Moffat@sun.com, Norm.Jacobs@sun.com, PSARC-ext@sun.com, Artem.Kachitchkin@sun.com, Danek.Duvall@sun.com Message-id: <18134.59189.122269.877336@gargle.gargle.HOWL> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: VM 7.01 under Emacs 21.3.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200708301452.l7UEqheP005675@marduk.eng.sun.com> Status: RO Content-Length: 1982 Gary Winiger writes: > > > > I'm a bit worried about the "out of the box" use-case; the usability > > > of the system seems to be directly tied to this being on, yet network > > > secure-by-default means that it probably should be off... > > > > I'm not sure that secure-by-default does require that this be off. As I > > understand this case it is egress probing not a daemon listening of > > ingress requests. > > The SMF policy requires that the manifest be delivered with > services disabled. The SBD policy requires listening services > be administratively enabled, or listen local only. Non-listening > services (outbound only) may be enabled in the default profile(s). This is one of the sticky parts of SBD. I don't think "outbound only" makes a lot of sense in the context of UDP. For this service, the daemon would end up establishing a listening socket. It would then periodically send out broadcast "query" messages to try to prod other systems into responding, but that listening socket would always be open and always listening. A system that wanted to could ignore (or just not wait for) the query and send a packet destined for the open socket. Is that an "outbound only" service, an "inbound" one, or something else? I think many of those terms from SBD make some sense when applied to TCP and to some particular application protocols, but making sense of it in this context is difficult at best. That's why I was so critical of SBD during the many reviews. To comply with the letter of the SBD law, I believe this does need to be shut down by default, and enabled only when requested. Yes, that does mean that usability suffers at the hands of security, but that's exactly what we signed up to do when we adopted SBD. -- James Carlson, Solaris Networking Sun Microsystems / 1 Network Drive 71.232W Vox +1 781 442 2084 MS UBUR02-212 / Burlington MA 01803-2757 42.496N Fax +1 781 442 1677 From sommerfeld@sun.com Thu Aug 30 09:28:01 2007 Received: from newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (newsunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.245]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l7UGS1lo018611 for ; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 09:28:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l7UGOsMa026965; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 10:24:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JNL0080ZHM8SM00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 09:25:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dm-east-01.east.sun.com ([129.148.9.192]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JNL005C4HM8W060@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 09:25:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thunk.east.sun.com (thunk.East.Sun.COM [129.148.174.66]) by dm-east-01.east.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l7UGPCnf015525; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 12:25:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [IPv6:::1] (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by thunk.east.sun.com (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l7UGPCIe010273; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 12:25:12 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2007 12:25:11 -0400 From: Bill Sommerfeld Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/499 Automatic discovery of network attached printers In-reply-to: <200708301452.l7UEqheP005675@marduk.eng.sun.com> To: Gary Winiger Cc: John.Plocher@sun.com, Darren.Moffat@sun.com, Norm.Jacobs@sun.com, PSARC-ext@sun.com, Artem.Kachitchkin@sun.com, Danek.Duvall@sun.com Message-id: <1188491111.9673.27.camel@thunk> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.10.2 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200708301452.l7UEqheP005675@marduk.eng.sun.com> Status: RO Content-Length: 1852 On Thu, 2007-08-30 at 07:52 -0700, Gary Winiger wrote: > The SBD policy requires listening services > be administratively enabled, or listen local only. Non-listening > services (outbound only) may be enabled in the default profile(s). The SBD policy is higher level than that, while the Install-Time Security policy is more flexible than that. See: http://sac.eng/cgi-bin/bp.cgi?NAME=ITS.bp Quoting: For each service that is created, installed, used, or depended on by the product, there are four ways to achieve secure execution: SVC1 Do not install the components that comprise the service. SVC2 Ensure that the service is never enabled or automatically used by the product itself, during or as a result of installation. (There is no requirement to prevent layered products or post-install administration from enabling or using the service.) SVC3 Ensure that the service is always enabled or automatically used by the product itself in a way that satisfies all of the minimum security requirements specified further below, both during and as a result of installation. (There is no requirement to prevent layered products or post-install administration from enabling or using the service in ways that do not satisfy the minimum security requirements.) SVC4 Ensure that failure to satisfy the minimum security requirements introduces no vulnerabilities or exposures. As you move up this scale, the amount of work needed to comply increases. We're arguing about whether SVC2 or SVC3 is appropriate for this project. From erik.nordmark@sun.com Thu Aug 30 09:29:55 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l7UGTsE2018625 for ; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 09:29:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l7UGR74e023876; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 17:27:10 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JNL00D07HP9VT00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 10:27:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: from jurassic.eng.sun.com ([129.146.58.166]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JNL007LWHP7TE60@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 10:27:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [10.7.251.248] (punchin-nordmark.SFBay.Sun.COM [10.7.251.248]) by jurassic.eng.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l7UGR7Ya589558 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 30 Aug 2007 09:27:07 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2007 09:27:07 -0700 From: Erik Nordmark Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/499 Automatic discovery of network attached printers In-reply-to: <46D5C357.7080900@sun.com> To: Artem Kachitchkine Cc: PSARC-ext@sun.com, Norm Jacobs Message-id: <46D6EFDB.9060108@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <46D5C357.7080900@sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0b2 (X11/20070326) Status: RO Content-Length: 669 Artem Kachitchkine wrote: > An example network attached printer entry looks remarkably like this: > > udi = '/org/freedesktop/Hal/devices/network_attached/192_168_0_15' What would happen if a user has a printer at work at (private) IP address 192.168.0.15, and has a completely different printer at home which happens to be at the same private IP address? Can the system handle that? Or will the poor user have to reassign the IP address for one of those printers? (The fact the identifier would be the same for both is why it looks suspicious - using IPv4 address as global identifiers doesn't work since private IPv4 addresses are commonplace.) Erik From Norm.Jacobs@sun.com Thu Aug 30 09:41:27 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l7UGfQNc018941 for ; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 09:41:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l7UGcccg029845; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 17:38:43 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JNL00I01I8HSI00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 09:38:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from printing.Eng.Sun.COM ([129.146.178.26]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JNL009A7I8H16C0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 09:38:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from snappy.SNAPCon.COM (punchin-jacobs.SFBay.Sun.COM [10.7.251.237]) by printing.Eng.Sun.COM (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l7UGdBhs013630; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 09:39:12 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2007 11:37:17 -0500 From: Norm Jacobs Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/499 Automatic discovery of network attached printers In-reply-to: <46D6EFDB.9060108@sun.com> To: Erik Nordmark Cc: Artem Kachitchkine , PSARC-ext@sun.com Message-id: <46D6F23D.4000703@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <46D5C357.7080900@sun.com> <46D6EFDB.9060108@sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.4 (X11/20070730) Status: RO Content-Length: 1066 Erik Nordmark wrote: > Artem Kachitchkine wrote: > >> An example network attached printer entry looks remarkably like this: >> >> udi = '/org/freedesktop/Hal/devices/network_attached/192_168_0_15' > > > What would happen if a user has a printer at work at (private) IP > address 192.168.0.15, and has a completely different printer at home > which happens to be at the same private IP address? > > Can the system handle that? Or will the poor user have to reassign the > IP address for one of those printers? > > (The fact the identifier would be the same for both is why it looks > suspicious - using IPv4 address as global identifiers doesn't work > since private IPv4 addresses are commonplace.) > > Erik The path in the HAL device tree is nothing more than a temporary place holder. The consumer of this data uses the device supplied serial number to uniquely identify it. After some of the email exchange yesterday, I will augment that to use a MAC address based unique id if the device doesn't supply a serial number of it's own.. -Norm From John.Plocher@sun.com Thu Aug 30 10:23:51 2007 Received: from newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (newsunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.245]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l7UHNp8I020501 for ; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 10:23:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l7UHKi6R046269 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-ext@sun.com>; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 11:20:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JNL00M07K7AR300@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Thu, 30 Aug 2007 10:21:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sca-es-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.43.132]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JNL00M1DK770120@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Thu, 30 Aug 2007 10:21:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fe-sfbay-10.sun.com ([192.18.43.129]) by sca-es-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l7UHL77N018098 for ; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 10:21:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.fe-sfbay-10.sun.com by fe-sfbay-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0JNL00L01JWA8900@fe-sfbay-10.sun.com> (original mail from John.Plocher@Sun.COM) for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Thu, 30 Aug 2007 10:21:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.168.4] ([66.166.204.98]) by fe-sfbay-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0JNL002EPK6UGVA0@fe-sfbay-10.sun.com>; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 10:20:55 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2007 10:20:43 -0700 From: John Plocher Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/499 Automatic discovery of network attached printers In-reply-to: <46D68F0D.2030308@Sun.COM> Sender: John.Plocher@sun.com To: Darren J Moffat Cc: Danek Duvall , Norm Jacobs , PSARC-ext@sun.com, Artem Kachitchkine Message-id: <46D6FC6B.3080605@Sun.Com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <46D5C357.7080900@sun.com> <20070829204256.GU13350@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <46D5E2F2.9060602@Sun.COM> <20070829214035.GA24251@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <46D5EB88.9090607@Sun.Com> <20070829220822.GB24251@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <46D5F0DD.10208@Sun.Com> <46D68F0D.2030308@Sun.COM> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.12 (Macintosh/20070509) Status: RO Content-Length: 895 Darren J Moffat wrote: > I'm not sure that secure-by-default does require that this be off. As I > understand this case it is egress probing not a daemon listening of > ingress requests. I defer to your expertise :-) My concern was one of 2nd-order exposure: I (the bad guy) place a box on the network that pretends to be a printer (i.e., it does the things that this case probes for...) You place a new, secure system on the net, and it probes for printers, finding me... Q: is there anything I could do to you or find out about you at this point, before any print jobs are sent? Does your system open up a printer queue connection to me at this point, or does it simply harvest my name & property info (via the MIB) for your local perusal? I'm pretty sure (but don't know for sure, thus the question) that there is no creation of an ingress path here, and thus no issue. -John From Norm.Jacobs@sun.com Thu Aug 30 10:24:30 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l7UHOURZ020515 for ; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 10:24:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l7UHLbMm027599; Fri, 31 Aug 2007 01:21:44 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JNL00B01K86M700@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 10:21:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from printing.Eng.Sun.COM ([129.146.178.26]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JNL005A6K86W4A0@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 10:21:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from snappy.SNAPCon.COM (punchin-jacobs.SFBay.Sun.COM [10.7.251.237]) by printing.Eng.Sun.COM (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l7UHMBKq013703; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 10:22:12 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2007 12:20:16 -0500 From: Norm Jacobs Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/499 Automatic discovery of network attached printers In-reply-to: <200708301506.l7UF6Fhb005687@marduk.eng.sun.com> To: Gary Winiger Cc: Darren.Moffat@sun.com, sommerfeld@sun.com, John.Plocher@sun.com, PSARC-ext@sun.com, Artem.Kachitchkin@sun.com, Danek.Duvall@sun.com Message-id: <46D6FC50.4080003@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200708301506.l7UF6Fhb005687@marduk.eng.sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.4 (X11/20070730) Status: RO Content-Length: 699 Gary Winiger wrote > > >> At least some of what people send to printers tends to be sensitive. >> > > And for TX, I'd hope this is covered. How does this project relate > to TX? Does HAL run in each of the labeled zones and pick up > network printers at that label? Artem can correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that HAL only runs in the global zone. > How would a TX machine advertise > it's a network host for a printer? > Or is this project only related to directly attached to the network > printers? > We are only detecting printers that are directly attached to the network. Discovery and advertisement of print queues will come in a separate case. -Norm From Norm.Jacobs@Sun.COM Thu Aug 30 10:49:46 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l7UHnj2e021031 for ; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 10:49:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l7UHkxcS009637; Fri, 31 Aug 2007 01:46:59 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JNL00I0BLEAQB00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 11:46:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from printing.Eng.Sun.COM ([129.146.178.26]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JNL00757LE8T9C0@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 11:46:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from snappy.SNAPCon.COM (punchin-jacobs.SFBay.Sun.COM [10.7.251.237]) by printing.Eng.Sun.COM (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l7UHlQ3P013724; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 10:47:27 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2007 12:45:32 -0500 From: Norm Jacobs Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/499 Automatic discovery of network attached printers In-reply-to: <46D6FC6B.3080605@Sun.Com> To: John Plocher Cc: Darren J Moffat , Danek Duvall , PSARC-ext@Sun.COM, Artem Kachitchkine Message-id: <46D7023C.9070401@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <46D5C357.7080900@sun.com> <20070829204256.GU13350@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <46D5E2F2.9060602@Sun.COM> <20070829214035.GA24251@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <46D5EB88.9090607@Sun.Com> <20070829220822.GB24251@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <46D5F0DD.10208@Sun.Com> <46D68F0D.2030308@Sun.COM> <46D6FC6B.3080605@Sun.Com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.4 (X11/20070730) Status: RO Content-Length: 1009 John Plocher wrote: > Darren J Moffat wrote: >> I'm not sure that secure-by-default does require that this be off. >> As I understand this case it is egress probing not a daemon listening >> of ingress requests. > > I defer to your expertise :-) > > My concern was one of 2nd-order exposure: > > I (the bad guy) place a box on the network that pretends to be a printer > (i.e., it does the things that this case probes for...) > > You place a new, secure system on the net, and it probes for printers, > finding me... > > Q: is there anything I could do to you or find out about you at this > point, before any print jobs are sent? NO > Does your system open up a > printer queue connection to me at this point, or does it simply harvest > my name & property info (via the MIB) for your local perusal? It simply harvests the data and stores it in the HAL device tree. There is a desktop applet that watches the HAL device tree for new printers and asks you if you would like a queue created. -Norm From carlsonj@phorcys.east.sun.com Thu Aug 30 11:03:56 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l7UI3t9m022171 for ; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 11:03:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l7UI136W006434; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 19:01:11 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JNL00305M1YP100@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 11:01:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com ([129.148.174.143]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JNL00M56M1W01B0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 11:01:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l7UI18rn115502; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 14:01:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from carlsonj@localhost) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1/Submit) id l7UI18pp115499; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 14:01:08 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2007 14:01:08 -0400 From: James Carlson Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/499 Automatic discovery of network attached printers In-reply-to: <46D7023C.9070401@Sun.COM> To: Norm Jacobs Cc: John Plocher , PSARC-ext@sun.com, Artem Kachitchkine , Danek Duvall , Darren J Moffat Message-id: <18135.1508.378658.427609@gargle.gargle.HOWL> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: VM 7.01 under Emacs 21.3.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <46D5C357.7080900@sun.com> <20070829204256.GU13350@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <46D5E2F2.9060602@Sun.COM> <20070829214035.GA24251@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <46D5EB88.9090607@Sun.Com> <20070829220822.GB24251@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <46D5F0DD.10208@Sun.Com> <46D68F0D.2030308@Sun.COM> <46D6FC6B.3080605@Sun.Com> <46D7023C.9070401@Sun.COM> Status: RO Content-Length: 701 Norm Jacobs writes: > John Plocher wrote: > > Darren J Moffat wrote: > > Q: is there anything I could do to you or find out about you at this > > point, before any print jobs are sent? > NO Not quite true. You'll have an open UDP port to receive those SNMP replies. If a Bad Guy on the network can forge packets that cause your daemon to malfunction, then he can potentially get access to whatever privileges your daemon has. It's _at least_ the classic open-port problem. -- James Carlson, Solaris Networking Sun Microsystems / 1 Network Drive 71.232W Vox +1 781 442 2084 MS UBUR02-212 / Burlington MA 01803-2757 42.496N Fax +1 781 442 1677 From casper@holland.sun.com Thu Aug 30 11:12:43 2007 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l7UIChru022287 for ; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 11:12:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l7UIA3nK021443 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-ext@Sun.COM>; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 11:10:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JNL0040DMGQE700@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for PSARC-ext@Sun.COM (ORCPT PSARC-ext@Sun.COM); Thu, 30 Aug 2007 11:10:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dm-holland-01.uk.sun.com ([129.156.101.192]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JNL00MGNMGM01D0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for PSARC-ext@Sun.COM (ORCPT PSARC-ext@Sun.COM); Thu, 30 Aug 2007 11:09:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from holland (room101.Holland.Sun.COM [129.159.130.93]) by dm-holland-01.uk.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l7UI9iqe026310; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 19:09:44 +0100 (BST) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2007 20:09:44 +0200 From: Casper.Dik@sun.com Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/499 Automatic discovery of network attached printers In-reply-to: <18135.1508.378658.427609@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Sender: casper@holland.sun.com To: James Carlson Cc: Norm Jacobs , John Plocher , PSARC-ext@sun.com, Artem Kachitchkine , Danek Duvall , Darren J Moffat Message-id: <200708301809.l7UI9iqe026310@dm-holland-01.uk.sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <46D5C357.7080900@sun.com> <20070829204256.GU13350@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <46D5E2F2.9060602@Sun.COM> <20070829214035.GA24251@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <46D5EB88.9090607@Sun.Com> <20070829220822.GB24251@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <46D5F0DD.10208@Sun.Com> <46D68F0D.2030308@Sun.COM> <46D6FC6B.3080605@Sun.Com> <46D7023C.9070401@Sun.COM> <18135.1508.378658.427609@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Status: RO Content-Length: 568 >Norm Jacobs writes: >> John Plocher wrote: >> > Darren J Moffat wrote: >> > Q: is there anything I could do to you or find out about you at this >> > point, before any print jobs are sent? >> NO > >Not quite true. You'll have an open UDP port to receive those SNMP >replies. If a Bad Guy on the network can forge packets that cause >your daemon to malfunction, then he can potentially get access to >whatever privileges your daemon has. > >It's _at least_ the classic open-port problem. And it's detected in port scans which generally upsets customers. Casper From Nicolas.Williams@sun.com Thu Aug 30 11:16:12 2007 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l7UIGCQY022333 for ; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 11:16:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l7UIDRqC022268; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 11:13:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JNL0040BMMFOS00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 11:13:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM ([129.153.128.104]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JNL00M2LMMF00C0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 11:13:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l7UIDRPN020161; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 13:13:27 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from nw141292@localhost) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1/Submit) id l7UIDR8Y020160; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 13:13:27 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2007 13:13:27 -0500 From: Nicolas Williams Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/499 Automatic discovery of network attached printers In-reply-to: <200708301809.l7UI9iqe026310@dm-holland-01.uk.sun.com> To: Casper.Dik@sun.com Cc: James Carlson , Norm Jacobs , John Plocher , PSARC-ext@sun.com, Artem Kachitchkine , Danek Duvall , Darren J Moffat Message-id: <20070830181326.GF20013@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <46D5E2F2.9060602@Sun.COM> <20070829214035.GA24251@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <46D5EB88.9090607@Sun.Com> <20070829220822.GB24251@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <46D5F0DD.10208@Sun.Com> <46D68F0D.2030308@Sun.COM> <46D6FC6B.3080605@Sun.Com> <46D7023C.9070401@Sun.COM> <18135.1508.378658.427609@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <200708301809.l7UI9iqe026310@dm-holland-01.uk.sun.com> X-Authentication-warning: binky.Central.Sun.COM: nw141292 set sender to Nicolas.Williams@sun.com using -f User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.7i Status: RO Content-Length: 844 On Thu, Aug 30, 2007 at 08:09:44PM +0200, Casper.Dik@Sun.COM wrote: > > >Norm Jacobs writes: > >> John Plocher wrote: > >> > Darren J Moffat wrote: > >> > Q: is there anything I could do to you or find out about you at this > >> > point, before any print jobs are sent? > >> NO > > > >Not quite true. You'll have an open UDP port to receive those SNMP > >replies. If a Bad Guy on the network can forge packets that cause > >your daemon to malfunction, then he can potentially get access to > >whatever privileges your daemon has. > > > >It's _at least_ the classic open-port problem. > > And it's detected in port scans which generally upsets customers. What if the software uses only "connected" UDP sockets? Will UDP datagrams sent to that port by nodes which are not the remote side of a connected UDP socket elicit an ICMP? Nico -- From carlsonj@phorcys.east.sun.com Thu Aug 30 11:24:56 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l7UIOtbq023049 for ; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 11:24:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l7UIM8td016397; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 19:22:10 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JNL00K07N0XQR00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 12:22:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com ([129.148.174.143]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JNL007K7N0WT1C0@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 12:22:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l7UIM7Ow115671; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 14:22:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from carlsonj@localhost) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1/Submit) id l7UIM7Qn115668; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 14:22:07 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2007 14:22:07 -0400 From: James Carlson Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/499 Automatic discovery of network attached printers In-reply-to: <20070830181326.GF20013@Sun.COM> To: Nicolas Williams Cc: Casper.Dik@sun.com, Norm Jacobs , John Plocher , Danek Duvall , PSARC-ext@sun.com, Artem Kachitchkine Message-id: <18135.2767.791835.869087@gargle.gargle.HOWL> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: VM 7.01 under Emacs 21.3.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <46D5E2F2.9060602@Sun.COM> <20070829214035.GA24251@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <46D5EB88.9090607@Sun.Com> <20070829220822.GB24251@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <46D5F0DD.10208@Sun.Com> <46D68F0D.2030308@Sun.COM> <46D6FC6B.3080605@Sun.Com> <46D7023C.9070401@Sun.COM> <18135.1508.378658.427609@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <200708301809.l7UI9iqe026310@dm-holland-01.uk.sun.com> <20070830181326.GF20013@Sun.COM> Status: RO Content-Length: 1450 Nicolas Williams writes: > On Thu, Aug 30, 2007 at 08:09:44PM +0200, Casper.Dik@Sun.COM wrote: > > > > >Norm Jacobs writes: > > >> John Plocher wrote: > > >> > Darren J Moffat wrote: > > >> > Q: is there anything I could do to you or find out about you at this > > >> > point, before any print jobs are sent? > > >> NO > > > > > >Not quite true. You'll have an open UDP port to receive those SNMP > > >replies. If a Bad Guy on the network can forge packets that cause > > >your daemon to malfunction, then he can potentially get access to > > >whatever privileges your daemon has. > > > > > >It's _at least_ the classic open-port problem. > > > > And it's detected in port scans which generally upsets customers. > > What if the software uses only "connected" UDP sockets? Will UDP > datagrams sent to that port by nodes which are not the remote side of a > connected UDP socket elicit an ICMP? How are you going to use a "connected" UDP socket when the point of this project is to _discover_ nodes on the network, and thus the daemon doesn't already know what addresses those nodes have and cannot formulate a viable connect() call? This is a broadcast-query-listen-for-answers sort of mechanism, not a direct query. -- James Carlson, Solaris Networking Sun Microsystems / 1 Network Drive 71.232W Vox +1 781 442 2084 MS UBUR02-212 / Burlington MA 01803-2757 42.496N Fax +1 781 442 1677 From Nicolas.Williams@sun.com Thu Aug 30 11:34:58 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l7UIYvpA023541 for ; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 11:34:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l7UIW9UO020804; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 19:32:12 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JNL00L03NHLCO00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 12:32:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM ([129.153.128.104]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JNL007Z9NHITBD0@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 12:32:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l7UIW28N020179; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 13:32:02 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from nw141292@localhost) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1/Submit) id l7UIW2M7020178; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 13:32:02 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2007 13:32:02 -0500 From: Nicolas Williams Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/499 Automatic discovery of network attached printers In-reply-to: <18135.2767.791835.869087@gargle.gargle.HOWL> To: James Carlson Cc: Casper.Dik@sun.com, Norm Jacobs , John Plocher , Danek Duvall , PSARC-ext@sun.com, Artem Kachitchkine Message-id: <20070830183202.GH20013@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <46D5EB88.9090607@Sun.Com> <20070829220822.GB24251@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <46D5F0DD.10208@Sun.Com> <46D68F0D.2030308@Sun.COM> <46D6FC6B.3080605@Sun.Com> <46D7023C.9070401@Sun.COM> <18135.1508.378658.427609@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <200708301809.l7UI9iqe026310@dm-holland-01.uk.sun.com> <20070830181326.GF20013@Sun.COM> <18135.2767.791835.869087@gargle.gargle.HOWL> X-Authentication-warning: binky.Central.Sun.COM: nw141292 set sender to Nicolas.Williams@sun.com using -f User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.7i Status: RO Content-Length: 754 On Thu, Aug 30, 2007 at 02:22:07PM -0400, James Carlson wrote: > Nicolas Williams writes: > > What if the software uses only "connected" UDP sockets? Will UDP > > datagrams sent to that port by nodes which are not the remote side of a > > connected UDP socket elicit an ICMP? > > How are you going to use a "connected" UDP socket when the point of > this project is to _discover_ nodes on the network, and thus the > daemon doesn't already know what addresses those nodes have and cannot > formulate a viable connect() call? Unicast to every node on the subnet, rather than broadcast and listen. But of course, if you'll do that then you'll have a connected socket to every address on the subnet, at least during queries, which makes this pointless. From carlsonj@phorcys.east.sun.com Thu Aug 30 11:38:25 2007 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l7UIcPKB023586 for ; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 11:38:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l7UIZgHC029895; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 11:35:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JNL0060LNNISH00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 11:35:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com ([129.148.174.143]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JNL0051WNNHGO60@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 11:35:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l7UIZfKu115764; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 14:35:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from carlsonj@localhost) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1/Submit) id l7UIZfMk115761; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 14:35:41 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2007 14:35:41 -0400 From: James Carlson Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/499 Automatic discovery of network attached printers In-reply-to: <20070830183202.GH20013@Sun.COM> To: Nicolas Williams Cc: Casper.Dik@sun.com, Norm Jacobs , John Plocher , Danek Duvall , PSARC-ext@sun.com, Artem Kachitchkine Message-id: <18135.3581.287101.887242@gargle.gargle.HOWL> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: VM 7.01 under Emacs 21.3.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <46D5EB88.9090607@Sun.Com> <20070829220822.GB24251@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <46D5F0DD.10208@Sun.Com> <46D68F0D.2030308@Sun.COM> <46D6FC6B.3080605@Sun.Com> <46D7023C.9070401@Sun.COM> <18135.1508.378658.427609@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <200708301809.l7UI9iqe026310@dm-holland-01.uk.sun.com> <20070830181326.GF20013@Sun.COM> <18135.2767.791835.869087@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20070830183202.GH20013@Sun.COM> Status: RO Content-Length: 1132 Nicolas Williams writes: > On Thu, Aug 30, 2007 at 02:22:07PM -0400, James Carlson wrote: > > Nicolas Williams writes: > > > What if the software uses only "connected" UDP sockets? Will UDP > > > datagrams sent to that port by nodes which are not the remote side of a > > > connected UDP socket elicit an ICMP? > > > > How are you going to use a "connected" UDP socket when the point of > > this project is to _discover_ nodes on the network, and thus the > > daemon doesn't already know what addresses those nodes have and cannot > > formulate a viable connect() call? > > Unicast to every node on the subnet, rather than broadcast and listen. Ick. > But of course, if you'll do that then you'll have a connected socket to > every address on the subnet, at least during queries, which makes this > pointless. Right. Besides infeasible for subnets configured with short prefixes and (of course) IPv6. -- James Carlson, Solaris Networking Sun Microsystems / 1 Network Drive 71.232W Vox +1 781 442 2084 MS UBUR02-212 / Burlington MA 01803-2757 42.496N Fax +1 781 442 1677 From Norm.Jacobs@sun.com Thu Aug 30 12:53:00 2007 Received: from newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (newsunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.245]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l7UJr0X5026439 for ; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 12:53:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l7UJnn3a029888; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 13:49:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JNL00I0PR3QLE00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 12:50:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from printing.Eng.Sun.COM ([129.146.178.26]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JNL00HN0R3PXD50@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 12:50:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from snappy.SNAPCon.COM (punchin-jacobs.SFBay.Sun.COM [10.7.251.237]) by printing.Eng.Sun.COM (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l7UJohAf013897; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 12:50:44 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2007 14:48:49 -0500 From: Norm Jacobs Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/499 Automatic discovery of network attached printers In-reply-to: <200708301809.l7UI9iqe026310@dm-holland-01.uk.sun.com> To: Casper.Dik@sun.com Cc: James Carlson , John Plocher , PSARC-ext@sun.com, Artem Kachitchkine , Danek Duvall , Darren J Moffat Message-id: <46D71F21.1060301@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <46D5C357.7080900@sun.com> <20070829204256.GU13350@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <46D5E2F2.9060602@Sun.COM> <20070829214035.GA24251@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <46D5EB88.9090607@Sun.Com> <20070829220822.GB24251@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <46D5F0DD.10208@Sun.Com> <46D68F0D.2030308@Sun.COM> <46D6FC6B.3080605@Sun.Com> <46D7023C.9070401@Sun.COM> <18135.1508.378658.427609@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <200708301809.l7UI9iqe026310@dm-holland-01.uk.sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.4 (X11/20070730) Status: RO Content-Length: 1356 Casper.Dik@sun.com wrote: >> Norm Jacobs writes: >> >>> John Plocher wrote: >>> >>>> Darren J Moffat wrote: >>>> Q: is there anything I could do to you or find out about you at this >>>> point, before any print jobs are sent? >>>> >>> NO >>> >> Not quite true. You'll have an open UDP port to receive those SNMP >> replies. If a Bad Guy on the network can forge packets that cause >> your daemon to malfunction, then he can potentially get access to >> whatever privileges your daemon has. >> >> It's _at least_ the classic open-port problem. >> > > > And it's detected in port scans which generally upsets customers. > > Casper > > A few things. 1. It doesn't send out a response to any queries on the network. 2. The port that is uses is not a well known port. It's effectively random. 3. It doesn't keep the port open all of the time. It only opens it, broadcasts and waits for responses. When it hasn't seen any responses for a while it closes the port and waits the scan interval to try again (at what ever port it gets that time). The result is that you really can't scan for it. Of course, this doesn't mean that someone can't write a little software to pretend to be a network attached printer and try and exploit it. It's just more work to make the attempt. -Norm From carlsonj@phorcys.east.sun.com Thu Aug 30 14:12:38 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l7ULCbLm028766 for ; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 14:12:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l7UL9iVv005612; Fri, 31 Aug 2007 05:09:47 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JNL00I0BUS98P00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 14:09:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com ([129.148.174.143]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JNL008G7US85LD0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 14:09:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l7UL9iDS116356; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 17:09:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from carlsonj@localhost) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1/Submit) id l7UL9i2d116353; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 17:09:44 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2007 17:09:44 -0400 From: James Carlson Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/499 Automatic discovery of network attached printers In-reply-to: <46D71F21.1060301@Sun.COM> To: Norm Jacobs Cc: Casper.Dik@sun.com, John Plocher , PSARC-ext@sun.com, Artem Kachitchkine , Danek Duvall , Darren J Moffat Message-id: <18135.12824.514950.306391@gargle.gargle.HOWL> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: VM 7.01 under Emacs 21.3.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <46D5C357.7080900@sun.com> <20070829204256.GU13350@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <46D5E2F2.9060602@Sun.COM> <20070829214035.GA24251@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <46D5EB88.9090607@Sun.Com> <20070829220822.GB24251@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <46D5F0DD.10208@Sun.Com> <46D68F0D.2030308@Sun.COM> <46D6FC6B.3080605@Sun.Com> <46D7023C.9070401@Sun.COM> <18135.1508.378658.427609@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <200708301809.l7UI9iqe026310@dm-holland-01.uk.sun.com> <46D71F21.1060301@Sun.COM> Status: RO Content-Length: 1033 Norm Jacobs writes: > 1. It doesn't send out a response to any queries on the network. Just being open is enough. The fact that it's open is easily detectable, because the system won't send back an ICMP Destination Unreachable / Port Unreachable when a packet for that port is received. Scanners use that feature to find the open and closed ports. > 2. The port that is uses is not a well known port. It's effectively > random. Sure. All open ports are interesting, though. > The result is that you really can't scan for it. Of course, this > doesn't mean that someone can't write a little software to pretend to be > a network attached printer and try and exploit it. It's just more work > to make the attempt. As far as security is concerned, I'd say that it's not much more work. -- James Carlson, Solaris Networking Sun Microsystems / 1 Network Drive 71.232W Vox +1 781 442 2084 MS UBUR02-212 / Burlington MA 01803-2757 42.496N Fax +1 781 442 1677 From Norm.Jacobs@Sun.COM Thu Aug 30 14:45:16 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l7ULjFCl029482 for ; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 14:45:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l7ULgJiH019411; Fri, 31 Aug 2007 05:42:24 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JNL00L09WAMI000@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 14:42:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from printing.Eng.Sun.COM ([129.146.178.26]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JNL00JLWWAMU450@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 14:42:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from snappy.SNAPCon.COM (punchin-jacobs.SFBay.Sun.COM [10.7.251.237]) by printing.Eng.Sun.COM (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l7ULgqjN014001; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 14:42:52 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2007 16:40:57 -0500 From: Norm Jacobs Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/499 Automatic discovery of network attached printers In-reply-to: <18135.12824.514950.306391@gargle.gargle.HOWL> To: James Carlson Cc: Casper.Dik@Sun.COM, John Plocher , PSARC-ext@Sun.COM, Artem Kachitchkine , Danek Duvall , Darren J Moffat Message-id: <46D73969.10502@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <46D5C357.7080900@sun.com> <20070829204256.GU13350@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <46D5E2F2.9060602@Sun.COM> <20070829214035.GA24251@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <46D5EB88.9090607@Sun.Com> <20070829220822.GB24251@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <46D5F0DD.10208@Sun.Com> <46D68F0D.2030308@Sun.COM> <46D6FC6B.3080605@Sun.Com> <46D7023C.9070401@Sun.COM> <18135.1508.378658.427609@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <200708301809.l7UI9iqe026310@dm-holland-01.uk.sun.com> <46D71F21.1060301@Sun.COM> <18135.12824.514950.306391@gargle.gargle.HOWL> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.4 (X11/20070730) Status: RO Content-Length: 1079 James Carlson wrote: > Norm Jacobs writes: > >> 1. It doesn't send out a response to any queries on the network. >> > > Just being open is enough. The fact that it's open is easily > detectable, because the system won't send back an ICMP Destination > Unreachable / Port Unreachable when a packet for that port is > received. Scanners use that feature to find the open and closed > ports. > > >> 2. The port that is uses is not a well known port. It's effectively >> random. >> > > Sure. All open ports are interesting, though. > > >> The result is that you really can't scan for it. Of course, this >> doesn't mean that someone can't write a little software to pretend to be >> a network attached printer and try and exploit it. It's just more work >> to make the attempt. >> > > As far as security is concerned, I'd say that it's not much more work All points well taken. The discovery addon uses a HAL supplied drop_privileges() function to limit what the process can do should some form of attack find a compromise. -Norm From Nicolas.Williams@sun.com Thu Aug 30 16:30:12 2007 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l7UNUCXe003909 for ; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 16:30:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l7UNRReh026237; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 16:27:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JNM00F1J15R0500@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 17:27:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM ([129.153.128.104]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JNM000MB15MHFA0@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 17:27:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l7UNRMbq020385; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 18:27:22 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from nw141292@localhost) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1/Submit) id l7UNRMWJ020384; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 18:27:22 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2007 18:27:21 -0500 From: Nicolas Williams Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/499 Automatic discovery of network attached printers In-reply-to: <18135.12824.514950.306391@gargle.gargle.HOWL> To: James Carlson Cc: Norm Jacobs , Casper.Dik@sun.com, John Plocher , PSARC-ext@sun.com, Artem Kachitchkine , Danek Duvall , Darren J Moffat Message-id: <20070830232721.GT20013@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <46D5EB88.9090607@Sun.Com> <20070829220822.GB24251@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <46D5F0DD.10208@Sun.Com> <46D68F0D.2030308@Sun.COM> <46D6FC6B.3080605@Sun.Com> <46D7023C.9070401@Sun.COM> <18135.1508.378658.427609@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <200708301809.l7UI9iqe026310@dm-holland-01.uk.sun.com> <46D71F21.1060301@Sun.COM> <18135.12824.514950.306391@gargle.gargle.HOWL> X-Authentication-warning: binky.Central.Sun.COM: nw141292 set sender to Nicolas.Williams@sun.com using -f User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.7i Status: RO Content-Length: 685 On Thu, Aug 30, 2007 at 05:09:44PM -0400, James Carlson wrote: > Norm Jacobs writes: > > 1. It doesn't send out a response to any queries on the network. > > Just being open is enough. The fact that it's open is easily > detectable, because the system won't send back an ICMP Destination > Unreachable / Port Unreachable when a packet for that port is > received. Scanners use that feature to find the open and closed > ports. Evil thought: since no response will be sent by the prober, could we have a socket option (SO_CLOAK) that says "send back an ICMP port unreachable message in response to any datagrams sent to this port"? But, like I said, that'd be evil :) Nico -- From Norm.Jacobs@Sun.COM Tue Sep 4 12:16:33 2007 Received: from newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (newsunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.245]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l84JGXti019351 for ; Tue, 4 Sep 2007 12:16:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l84JDFNf019093; Tue, 4 Sep 2007 13:13:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JNU00B01YQZEV00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Tue, 04 Sep 2007 12:13:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from printing.Eng.Sun.COM ([129.146.178.26]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JNU0067UYQYHX60@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Tue, 04 Sep 2007 12:13:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from snappy.SNAPCon.COM (punchin-jacobs.SFBay.Sun.COM [10.7.251.237]) by printing.Eng.Sun.COM (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l84JEIDC017399; Tue, 04 Sep 2007 12:14:19 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 14:12:18 -0500 From: Norm Jacobs Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/499 Automatic discovery of network attached printers In-reply-to: <20070829214035.GA24251@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> To: Danek Duvall Cc: PSARC-ext@Sun.COM, Artem Kachitchkine Message-id: <46DDAE12.60906@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <46D5C357.7080900@sun.com> <20070829204256.GU13350@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <46D5E2F2.9060602@Sun.COM> <20070829214035.GA24251@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.4 (X11/20070730) Status: RO Content-Length: 1970 Danek Duvall wrote: > On Wed, Aug 29, 2007 at 04:19:46PM -0500, Norm Jacobs wrote: > > >> The hald-addon-network-discovery module could be used to detect other types >> of network attached devices, like scanners or storage, but it is >> specifically looking for printers. The hald-probe-network-printer module >> is tied to printers and only looks for printer specific data on the device >> it's probing. >> > > Okay. Isn't it strange, then, that you're assigning the Printer Management > profile to the SMF service instances when those instances could be > discovering things other than Printers? > Control of network attached device discovery requires the solaris.smf.manage.discovery.snmp solaris.smf.value.discovery.snmp authorizations. I added them to the "Printer Management" profile so that someone that already has the ability to manage printing could also manage the discovery of network attached printers. > Would "Device Management" be more appropriate? Or would it be preferable > to restructure the service so that the device types are the instance names, > and the discovery protocols are properties on those instances? (Or > something like that.) > The HAL addon, hald-addon-network-discovery, doesn't currently discovery anything other than printers and we don't have plans to extend it to look for anything else. I can envision a time when we might want to update it to recognize more device types. If we were to break this down to device-type and method, I would change the service name and authorization as follows: svc:/network/device-discovery/printers:snmp solaris.smf.{manage|value}.discovery.printers.snmp I would also change the D-BUS method names to EnablePrinterScanningViaSNMP(), DisablePrinterScanningViaSNMP(), and ScanForPrintersViaSNMP() I don't see a great need to control this by device type in the future, but it's a relatively minor change to make now. -Norm From danek.duvall@Sun.COM Tue Sep 4 12:54:52 2007 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l84Jsqo0020958 for ; Tue, 4 Sep 2007 12:54:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l84Jq4f8019449 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-ext@Sun.COM>; Tue, 4 Sep 2007 12:52:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JNV004150IV1F00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for PSARC-ext@Sun.COM (ORCPT PSARC-ext@Sun.COM); Tue, 04 Sep 2007 12:52:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sfbaymail2sca.sfbay.sun.com ([129.145.155.42]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JNV006C40ITZXE0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for PSARC-ext@Sun.COM (ORCPT PSARC-ext@Sun.COM); Tue, 04 Sep 2007 12:52:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zruty.sfbay.sun.com (zruty.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.168.40]) by sfbaymail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.10/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l84Jq2Jt015303; Tue, 04 Sep 2007 12:52:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zruty.sfbay.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zruty.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l84JohmU029896; Tue, 04 Sep 2007 12:50:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from dduvall@localhost) by zruty.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1/Submit) id l84JohF2029895; Tue, 04 Sep 2007 12:50:43 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 12:50:43 -0700 From: Danek Duvall Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/499 Automatic discovery of network attached printers In-reply-to: <46DDAE12.60906@Sun.COM> To: Norm Jacobs Cc: PSARC-ext@Sun.COM, Artem Kachitchkine Message-id: <20070904195043.GI1910@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <46D5C357.7080900@sun.com> <20070829204256.GU13350@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <46D5E2F2.9060602@Sun.COM> <20070829214035.GA24251@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <46DDAE12.60906@Sun.COM> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.16 (2007-06-27) Status: RO Content-Length: 1941 On Tue, Sep 04, 2007 at 02:12:18PM -0500, Norm Jacobs wrote: > Danek Duvall wrote: >> Okay. Isn't it strange, then, that you're assigning the Printer >> Management profile to the SMF service instances when those instances >> could be discovering things other than Printers? > > Control of network attached device discovery requires the > > solaris.smf.manage.discovery.snmp > solaris.smf.value.discovery.snmp > > authorizations. > > I added them to the "Printer Management" profile so that someone that > already has the ability to manage printing could also manage the discovery > of network attached printers. Okay. >> Would "Device Management" be more appropriate? Or would it be >> preferable to restructure the service so that the device types are the >> instance names, and the discovery protocols are properties on those >> instances? (Or something like that.) > > The HAL addon, hald-addon-network-discovery, doesn't currently discovery > anything other than printers and we don't have plans to extend it to look > for anything else. Is that "we" the printing folks or the more general set of people working on HAL? I don't think I'd expect the printing folks to have any plans like that. :) > I can envision a time when we might want to update it to recognize more > device types. If we were to break this down to device-type and method, I > would change the service name and authorization as follows: > > svc:/network/device-discovery/printers:snmp > solaris.smf.{manage|value}.discovery.printers.snmp Okay. My only question here, then, is whether the migration from the proposed FMRI and authorization strings to these potential future ones is painless. Can both FMRIs exist on a system at the same time? I can't think of too many network devices at the moment -- only scanners come to mind (would storage fall in this category?) -- so maybe it's okay not to prepare for them immediately. Danek From Norm.Jacobs@sun.com Tue Sep 4 13:28:20 2007 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l84KSKRO022543 for ; Tue, 4 Sep 2007 13:28:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l84KPY6Q000441; Tue, 4 Sep 2007 13:25:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JNV0062P22MB400@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Tue, 04 Sep 2007 13:25:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from printing.Eng.Sun.COM ([129.146.178.26]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JNV005AP22MR800@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Tue, 04 Sep 2007 13:25:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from snappy.SNAPCon.COM (punchin-jacobs.SFBay.Sun.COM [10.7.251.237]) by printing.Eng.Sun.COM (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l84KQ5Ne017475; Tue, 04 Sep 2007 13:26:06 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 15:24:06 -0500 From: Norm Jacobs Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/499 Automatic discovery of network attached printers In-reply-to: <20070904195043.GI1910@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> To: Danek Duvall Cc: PSARC-ext@sun.com, Artem Kachitchkine Message-id: <46DDBEE6.30706@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <46D5C357.7080900@sun.com> <20070829204256.GU13350@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <46D5E2F2.9060602@Sun.COM> <20070829214035.GA24251@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <46DDAE12.60906@Sun.COM> <20070904195043.GI1910@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.4 (X11/20070730) Status: RO Content-Length: 2935 Danek Duvall wrote: > On Tue, Sep 04, 2007 at 02:12:18PM -0500, Norm Jacobs wrote: > > >> Danek Duvall wrote: >> >>> Okay. Isn't it strange, then, that you're assigning the Printer >>> Management profile to the SMF service instances when those instances >>> could be discovering things other than Printers? >>> >> Control of network attached device discovery requires the >> >> solaris.smf.manage.discovery.snmp >> solaris.smf.value.discovery.snmp >> >> authorizations. >> >> I added them to the "Printer Management" profile so that someone that >> already has the ability to manage printing could also manage the discovery >> of network attached printers. >> > > Okay. > > >>> Would "Device Management" be more appropriate? Or would it be >>> preferable to restructure the service so that the device types are the >>> instance names, and the discovery protocols are properties on those >>> instances? (Or something like that.) >>> >> The HAL addon, hald-addon-network-discovery, doesn't currently discovery >> anything other than printers and we don't have plans to extend it to look >> for anything else. >> > > Is that "we" the printing folks or the more general set of people working > on HAL? I don't think I'd expect the printing folks to have any plans like > that. :) > The printing group, though I don't know of anyone else that is looking to do anything else with it, but Artem would have a better idea. > >> I can envision a time when we might want to update it to recognize more >> device types. If we were to break this down to device-type and method, I >> would change the service name and authorization as follows: >> >> svc:/network/device-discovery/printers:snmp >> solaris.smf.{manage|value}.discovery.printers.snmp >> > > Okay. My only question here, then, is whether the migration from the > proposed FMRI and authorization strings to these potential future ones is > painless. Can both FMRIs exist on a system at the same time? I can't > think of too many network devices at the moment -- only scanners come to > mind (would storage fall in this category?) -- so maybe it's okay not to > prepare for them immediately. > Changing the proposal to use the service name, authorizations, and D-BUS method naming that I sent in my last email is easier to do now than some time in the future even though there are no plans (by the printing group or anyone else that I know of) to support other device types. The four (probably more common) device types that immediately come to mind for me are printers, scanners, fax machines, and storage. The underlaying printer support is in Solaris, so there is a more immediate need to discover them. Scanner and Fax device support is currently lacking, particularly the network attached variety. I expect that the storage support depends on the type of network attached storage. -Norm From Artem.Kachitchkin@sun.com Tue Sep 4 13:41:20 2007 Received: from newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (newsunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.245]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l84KfJgM022931 for ; Tue, 4 Sep 2007 13:41:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l84Kc38T052629 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-ext@sun.com>; Tue, 4 Sep 2007 14:38:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JNV00E052OAZC00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Tue, 04 Sep 2007 13:38:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sca-es-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.43.133]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JNV006XF2OAHNA0@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Tue, 04 Sep 2007 13:38:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fe-sfbay-10.sun.com ([192.18.43.129]) by sca-es-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l84KcYKh028141 for ; Tue, 04 Sep 2007 13:38:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.fe-sfbay-10.sun.com by fe-sfbay-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0JNV00H012B8DO00@fe-sfbay-10.sun.com> (original mail from Artem.Kachitchkin@Sun.COM) for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Tue, 04 Sep 2007 13:38:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.100] ([75.6.236.174]) by fe-sfbay-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0JNV00GL32O52SH0@fe-sfbay-10.sun.com>; Tue, 04 Sep 2007 13:38:30 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 13:36:21 -0700 From: Artem Kachitchkine Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/499 Automatic discovery of network attached printers In-reply-to: <46DDBEE6.30706@Sun.COM> Sender: Artem.Kachitchkin@sun.com To: Norm Jacobs Cc: Danek Duvall , PSARC-ext@sun.com Message-id: <46DDC1C5.5050306@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <46D5C357.7080900@sun.com> <20070829204256.GU13350@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <46D5E2F2.9060602@Sun.COM> <20070829214035.GA24251@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <46DDAE12.60906@Sun.COM> <20070904195043.GI1910@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <46DDBEE6.30706@Sun.COM> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 Gecko/20040113 Status: RO Content-Length: 680 >>> The HAL addon, hald-addon-network-discovery, doesn't currently >>> discovery anything other than printers and we don't have plans to >>> extend it to look for anything else. >> >> Is that "we" the printing folks or the more general set of people working >> on HAL? I don't think I'd expect the printing folks to have any plans >> like >> that. :) >> > The printing group, though I don't know of anyone else that is looking > to do anything else with it, but Artem would have a better idea. Not that I'm aware of, inside or outside Sun. Developers for the "other" OS don't use HAL for network related functionality (though they do use DBus more and more). -Artem From Nicolas.Williams@sun.com Tue Sep 4 13:48:17 2007 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l84KmGKs023104 for ; Tue, 4 Sep 2007 13:48:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l84KjL8C018435; Tue, 4 Sep 2007 21:45:28 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JNV00K2X2ZR0C00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Tue, 04 Sep 2007 14:45:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM ([129.153.128.104]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JNV00HB42ZQXI20@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Tue, 04 Sep 2007 14:45:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l84KjPDs023022; Tue, 04 Sep 2007 15:45:25 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from nw141292@localhost) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1/Submit) id l84KjPlq023021; Tue, 04 Sep 2007 15:45:25 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 15:45:25 -0500 From: Nicolas Williams Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/499 Automatic discovery of network attached printers In-reply-to: <20070904195043.GI1910@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> To: Danek Duvall Cc: Norm Jacobs , PSARC-ext@sun.com, Artem Kachitchkine Message-id: <20070904204524.GP22618@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <46D5C357.7080900@sun.com> <20070829204256.GU13350@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <46D5E2F2.9060602@Sun.COM> <20070829214035.GA24251@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <46DDAE12.60906@Sun.COM> <20070904195043.GI1910@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> X-Authentication-warning: binky.Central.Sun.COM: nw141292 set sender to Nicolas.Williams@sun.com using -f User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.7i Status: RO Content-Length: 1024 On Tue, Sep 04, 2007 at 12:50:43PM -0700, Danek Duvall wrote: > On Tue, Sep 04, 2007 at 02:12:18PM -0500, Norm Jacobs wrote: > > I can envision a time when we might want to update it to recognize more > > device types. If we were to break this down to device-type and method, I > > would change the service name and authorization as follows: > > > > svc:/network/device-discovery/printers:snmp > > solaris.smf.{manage|value}.discovery.printers.snmp > > Okay. My only question here, then, is whether the migration from the > proposed FMRI and authorization strings to these potential future ones is > painless. Can both FMRIs exist on a system at the same time? I can't > think of too many network devices at the moment -- only scanners come to > mind (would storage fall in this category?) -- so maybe it's okay not to > prepare for them immediately. Change it now... It'll be much better that way. I can certainly imagine other devices that one might want to auto-discover. E.g., SunSPOT-type appliances. From Artem.Kachitchkin@sun.com Thu Sep 6 12:08:38 2007 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l86J8cbD003749 for ; Thu, 6 Sep 2007 12:08:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l86J5oVx012472 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-ext@sun.com>; Thu, 6 Sep 2007 12:05:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JNY00K3BNPSQY00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@Sun.Com); Thu, 06 Sep 2007 13:05:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sca-es-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.43.133]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JNY00FR2NPPXQ60@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@Sun.Com); Thu, 06 Sep 2007 13:05:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from fe-sfbay-10.sun.com ([192.18.43.129]) by sca-es-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l86J5nwJ021118 for ; Thu, 06 Sep 2007 12:05:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.fe-sfbay-10.sun.com by fe-sfbay-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0JNY00K01NOPFY00@fe-sfbay-10.sun.com> (original mail from Artem.Kachitchkin@Sun.COM) for PSARC-ext@Sun.Com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@Sun.Com); Thu, 06 Sep 2007 12:05:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [129.146.228.101] by fe-sfbay-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0JNY00MFONPJTT80@fe-sfbay-10.sun.com>; Thu, 06 Sep 2007 12:05:44 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 12:05:55 -0700 From: Artem Kachitchkine Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/499 Automatic discovery of network attached printers In-reply-to: <46D5C357.7080900@sun.com> Sender: Artem.Kachitchkin@sun.com To: psarc-ext@sun.com Cc: Norm Jacobs Message-id: <46E04F93.2090109@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <46D5C357.7080900@sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (X11/20060113) Status: RO Content-Length: 97 More time was requested at yesterday's meeting, so I'm extending the timer until 9/12. -Artem From Artem.Kachitchkin@sun.com Tue Sep 11 17:33:37 2007 Received: from sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l8C0Xa49010276 for ; Tue, 11 Sep 2007 17:33:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l8C0UPTP023531 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-ext@sun.com>; Wed, 12 Sep 2007 08:30:46 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JO800J01C390V00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Tue, 11 Sep 2007 17:30:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sca-es-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.43.133]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JO800ID0C38ST00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Tue, 11 Sep 2007 17:30:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fe-sfbay-10.sun.com ([192.18.43.129]) by sca-es-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l8C0Uiqm014035 for ; Tue, 11 Sep 2007 17:30:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.fe-sfbay-10.sun.com by fe-sfbay-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0JO800D01BYEMY00@fe-sfbay-10.sun.com> (original mail from Artem.Kachitchkin@Sun.COM) for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Tue, 11 Sep 2007 17:30:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.100] ([75.6.236.174]) by fe-sfbay-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0JO8006ZXC37KDC0@fe-sfbay-10.sun.com>; Tue, 11 Sep 2007 17:30:44 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 17:28:01 -0700 From: Artem Kachitchkine Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/499 Automatic discovery of network attached printers In-reply-to: <20070904204524.GP22618@Sun.COM> Sender: Artem.Kachitchkin@sun.com To: Nicolas Williams Cc: Danek Duvall , Norm Jacobs , PSARC-ext@sun.com Message-id: <46E73291.2020600@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <46D5C357.7080900@sun.com> <20070829204256.GU13350@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <46D5E2F2.9060602@Sun.COM> <20070829214035.GA24251@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <46DDAE12.60906@Sun.COM> <20070904195043.GI1910@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <20070904204524.GP22618@Sun.COM> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 Gecko/20040113 Status: RO Content-Length: 1108 Nicolas Williams wrote: > On Tue, Sep 04, 2007 at 12:50:43PM -0700, Danek Duvall wrote: >> On Tue, Sep 04, 2007 at 02:12:18PM -0500, Norm Jacobs wrote: >>> I can envision a time when we might want to update it to recognize more >>> device types. If we were to break this down to device-type and method, I >>> would change the service name and authorization as follows: >>> >>> svc:/network/device-discovery/printers:snmp >>> solaris.smf.{manage|value}.discovery.printers.snmp >> Okay. My only question here, then, is whether the migration from the >> proposed FMRI and authorization strings to these potential future ones is >> painless. Can both FMRIs exist on a system at the same time? I can't >> think of too many network devices at the moment -- only scanners come to >> mind (would storage fall in this category?) -- so maybe it's okay not to >> prepare for them immediately. > > Change it now... It'll be much better that way. > > I can certainly imagine other devices that one might want to > auto-discover. E.g., SunSPOT-type appliances. Was there a closure on this issue? -Artem From Norm.Jacobs@Sun.COM Tue Sep 11 20:38:37 2007 Received: from newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (newsunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.245]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l8C3cbtg012187 for ; Tue, 11 Sep 2007 20:38:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l8C3Z88o015217; Tue, 11 Sep 2007 21:35:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JO800501KNM1600@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Tue, 11 Sep 2007 20:35:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from printing.Eng.Sun.COM ([129.146.178.26]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JO800M8IKNLDMA0@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Tue, 11 Sep 2007 20:35:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from snappy.SNAPCon.COM (punchin-jacobs.SFBay.Sun.COM [10.7.251.237]) by printing.Eng.Sun.COM (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l8C3aIiD024657; Tue, 11 Sep 2007 20:36:19 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 22:34:11 -0500 From: Norm Jacobs Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/499 Automatic discovery of network attached printers In-reply-to: <46E73291.2020600@sun.com> To: Artem Kachitchkine Cc: Nicolas Williams , Danek Duvall , PSARC-ext@Sun.COM Message-id: <46E75E33.10702@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <46D5C357.7080900@sun.com> <20070829204256.GU13350@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <46D5E2F2.9060602@Sun.COM> <20070829214035.GA24251@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <46DDAE12.60906@Sun.COM> <20070904195043.GI1910@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <20070904204524.GP22618@Sun.COM> <46E73291.2020600@sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.4 (X11/20070730) Status: RO Content-Length: 1249 Artem Kachitchkine wrote: > Nicolas Williams wrote: >> On Tue, Sep 04, 2007 at 12:50:43PM -0700, Danek Duvall wrote: >>> On Tue, Sep 04, 2007 at 02:12:18PM -0500, Norm Jacobs wrote: >>>> I can envision a time when we might want to update it to recognize >>>> more >>>> device types. If we were to break this down to device-type and >>>> method, I >>>> would change the service name and authorization as follows: >>>> >>>> svc:/network/device-discovery/printers:snmp >>>> solaris.smf.{manage|value}.discovery.printers.snmp >>> Okay. My only question here, then, is whether the migration from the >>> proposed FMRI and authorization strings to these potential future >>> ones is >>> painless. Can both FMRIs exist on a system at the same time? I can't >>> think of too many network devices at the moment -- only scanners >>> come to >>> mind (would storage fall in this category?) -- so maybe it's okay >>> not to >>> prepare for them immediately. >> >> Change it now... It'll be much better that way. >> >> I can certainly imagine other devices that one might want to >> auto-discover. E.g., SunSPOT-type appliances. > > Was there a closure on this issue? The proposal should be considered changed as mentioned above. -Norm From Artem.Kachitchkin@Sun.COM Wed Sep 12 16:57:39 2007 Received: from newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (newsunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.245]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l8CNvdo3013516 for ; Wed, 12 Sep 2007 16:57:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l8CNs80i048365 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-ext@sun.com>; Wed, 12 Sep 2007 17:54:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JOA0020J53BJC00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@Sun.Com); Wed, 12 Sep 2007 17:54:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sca-es-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.43.133]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JOA00JLE53APC30@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@Sun.Com); Wed, 12 Sep 2007 17:54:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: from fe-sfbay-09.sun.com ([192.18.43.129]) by sca-es-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l8CNskoV011044 for ; Wed, 12 Sep 2007 16:54:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.fe-sfbay-09.sun.com by fe-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0JOA001014XAAR00@fe-sfbay-09.sun.com> (original mail from Artem.Kachitchkin@Sun.COM) for PSARC-ext@Sun.Com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@Sun.Com); Wed, 12 Sep 2007 16:54:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [129.146.228.101] by fe-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0JOA00HQ753A4UD0@fe-sfbay-09.sun.com>; Wed, 12 Sep 2007 16:54:46 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 16:55:10 -0700 From: Artem Kachitchkine Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/499 Automatic discovery of network attached printers In-reply-to: <46D5C357.7080900@sun.com> Sender: Artem.Kachitchkin@Sun.COM To: PSARC-ext@Sun.COM Cc: Norm Jacobs Message-id: <46E87C5E.80501@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <46D5C357.7080900@sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (X11/20060113) Status: RO Content-Length: 31 Case is now approved. -Artem From Thomas.Wagner@sun.com Sun Sep 23 03:49:44 2007 Received: from newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (newsunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.245]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l8NAniaA012287 for ; Sun, 23 Sep 2007 03:49:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l8NAjvCG043756 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-ext@sun.com>; Sun, 23 Sep 2007 04:45:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JOT00701HXWVL00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Sun, 23 Sep 2007 03:46:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dm-germany-01.uk.sun.com ([129.156.101.129]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JOT001MNHXVIT20@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Sun, 23 Sep 2007 03:46:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stuttfs44.Germany.Sun.COM (stuttfs44.Germany.Sun.COM [129.157.158.127]) by dm-germany-01.uk.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id l8NAkZCT025540; Sun, 23 Sep 2007 11:46:36 +0100 (BST) Received: from stuttfs44.Germany.Sun.COM (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by stuttfs44.Germany.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l8NAkZap029776; Sun, 23 Sep 2007 12:46:35 +0200 (MEST) Received: (from tw122027@localhost) by stuttfs44.Germany.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/Submit) id l8NAkYAH029775; Sun, 23 Sep 2007 12:46:34 +0200 (MEST) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2007 12:46:34 +0200 From: Thomas Wagner Subject: Re: PSARC/2007/499 Automatic discovery of network attached printers In-reply-to: <46D5DC68.8060603@Sun.COM> To: Norm Jacobs Cc: James Carlson , PSARC-ext@sun.com, Artem Kachitchkine Message-id: <20070923104634.GO15820@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <46D5C357.7080900@sun.com> <18133.52884.802810.152560@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <46D5DC68.8060603@Sun.COM> X-Authentication-warning: stuttfs44.Germany.Sun.COM: tw122027 set sender to Thomas.Wagner@sun.com using -f User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.15 (2007-04-06) Status: RO Content-Length: 1260 On Wed, Aug 29, 2007 at 03:51:52PM -0500, Norm Jacobs wrote: > James Carlson wrote: > > Artem Kachitchkine writes: > > What about Avahi? > > > Most of the printers that I have come across don't support mDNS. A > couple of the newer ones that I have tested with do. I am looking at > incorporating it as a discovery method. mDNS support should introduce a > relatively small incremental change to this case to import the necessary > interfaces and introduce an interface to control the discovery method. as a late followup, if there is discovery using SNMP and mDNS , there would be the case, where one device is dicovered by both. How to handle this? Should it there a priority setting which one comes first and the other irgnored? (like the ordering in /etc/nsswitch.conf) Possibly I didn't see it mentioned, how would this discovery cross network boundaries e.g. an IP-Router. The mDNS approach could cross such boundaries, if additional mDNS domains/nameservers are explicitly configured or automaticly discovered. Think of printers in a remote location. With mDNS new printers (switched on right now) would be actively announced on the net and the printer configuration should wake up and inspect the new device immediately. Thomas --