From Frank.Che@sun.com Sun Jan 20 19:35:07 2008 Received: from sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m0L3Z6jF007194 for ; Sun, 20 Jan 2008 19:35:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m0L3Z1D0005121; Mon, 21 Jan 2008 11:35:05 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JUZ00K055YF8X00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Sun, 20 Jan 2008 19:35:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from sineb-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.19.7]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JUZ00J545YDIKB0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Sun, 20 Jan 2008 19:35:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from fe-apac-05.sun.com (fe-apac-05.sun.com [192.18.19.176] (may be forged)) by sineb-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m0L3Z0Db016955; Mon, 21 Jan 2008 03:35:01 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.mail-apac.sun.com by mail-apac.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JUZ001015STYE00@mail-apac.sun.com> (original mail from Frank.Che@Sun.COM) ; Mon, 21 Jan 2008 11:35:00 +0800 (SGT) Received: from [129.158.218.60] by mail-apac.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JUZ003BE5YBMJV2@mail-apac.sun.com>; Mon, 21 Jan 2008 11:35:00 +0800 (SGT) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 11:31:44 +0800 From: Frank Che Subject: PSARC 2008/043 Phase 1 of OSS for Solaris Sender: Frank.Che@sun.com To: PSARC-ext@sun.com Cc: Freeman.Liu@sun.com, audio-discuss@sun.com Message-id: <47941220.6050702@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en-us, en X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; SunOS i86pc; en-US; rv:1.7) Gecko/20060627 Status: RO Content-Length: 4813 I'm sponsoring this fast track for Freeman Liu and the audio team. The requested binding is minor. The timer is set to 01/29/2008. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 4.Technical Description This project is phase 1 of the umbrella project described in "Open Sound System (OSS) for Solaris" (PSARC 2007/238) There are two main goals of this phase. One is to integrate OSS high definition audio driver "hdaudio" into Solaris to support the most popular audio hardware. The other goal is to keep SADA (Solaris Audio Driver Architecture) compatibility so that there will be no regression for the current SADA applications. Theoretically, all the HD audio hardware will be supported. We will test the ones supported by SADA HD audio driver to prevent regression. Several other popular codecs will also be covered. The SADA compatibility is accomplished by an emulation layer named "sadasupport". It is a pseudo SADA audio driver which provides SADA interface to upper level. From the applications' point of view, it is not different from other SADA drivers. On the other hand, it does not operate the hardware directly. Instead, it accesses the device file provided by the lower level OSS drivers through ldi interface. The following diagram illustrates the relations between SADA framework, sadasupport, OSS framework and OSS driver where there is a HD audio hardware in the system |-------------| User level |app1,app2 ...| |------+------| |(1) | |-----+----| |--------| -------------------|/dev/audio|-----------------|/dev/dsp|------------------ |-----+----| |-+--+---| |(2) (4) | | Kernel level | +--------------------+ |(5) | | | |--------------|(3)|-----+---+-| |---+---|(6)|-------------| |SADA framework+---+sadasupport| |hdaudio+---+OSS framework| |--------------| |-----------| |---+---| |-------------| |(7) |---+----| |HD audio| |hardware| |--------| * (1),(2) Applications make audio requests through /dev/audio, which is exported by sadasupport. * (3) Sadasupport turns to SADA framework to fulfill the requests * (4),(5) Sadasupport access hdaudio driver by ldi interface when it needs service from hdaudio driver to complete the requests * (6),(7) Hdaudio turn to OSS framework to fulfill the requests and operate the hardware when needed. In phase 1, the device file "/dev/dsp" provided by OSS drivers is a project private interface and only root user is able to access it. No new interface will be published in this phase. Although HD audio driver is replaced by OSS hdaudio driver, other SADA drivers will not be replaced in phase 1. Drivers of the two different frameworks can work together. SADA framework will not be removed, either. Detailed information of SADA can be found in man pages: audio(7I), mixer(7I) and audio_support(7I). Summarily, we use OSS hdaudio driver to support HD audio hardware and use sadasupport to maintain SADA compatibility. During the discussion of the umbrella case, the issue of latency has been brought up. In this context, latency means the time gap between the time hardware/driver is changed by other applications or by external events and the time when applications sense it. And it should be achieved without high CPU usage. It can be achieved by leverage feature provided by SADA interface. Since SADA interface will be kept, latency issues is addressed naturally. Consensus was reached during the offline discussion. Here is the list of all kernel module and driver files: osscommon osscore osscore.conf sadasupport sadasupport.conf vmix vmix.conf hdaudio hdaudio.conf Some of the tunables provided by the .conf files are for changing some aspect of the OSS system. But the default value is suitable in most case and they rarely need to be changed. Other tunable are for debugging. All these files and the tunables are of project private stability in this phase. They might be changed in the following phases. 5. Reference Documents: Open Sound System (OSS) for Solaris (PSARC 2007/238). http://opensolaris.org/os/project/opensound From brian.gupta@gmail.com Sun Jan 20 22:12:26 2008 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m0L6CPx7009577 for ; Sun, 20 Jan 2008 22:12:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m0L6CIM5011217 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-ext@sun.com>; Mon, 21 Jan 2008 06:12:24 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JUZ00E09D8O1W00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Sun, 20 Jan 2008 22:12:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from sca-ea-mail-4.sun.com ([192.18.43.22]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JUZ005IQD8NYX50@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Sun, 20 Jan 2008 22:12:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay22.sun.com (relay22.sun.com [192.12.251.34] (may be forged)) by sca-ea-mail-4.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m0L67cMj029143 for ; Mon, 21 Jan 2008 06:12:23 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mms24es.sun.com ([150.143.232.74] [150.143.232.74]) by relay22i.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-1570376 for PSARC-ext@sun.com; Mon, 21 Jan 2008 06:12:23 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay24.sun.com (relay24.sun.com [192.12.251.74]) by mms24es.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-1622967 for PSARC-ext@sun.com; Mon, 21 Jan 2008 06:12:22 +0000 (Z) Received: from py-out-1112.google.com ([64.233.166.176] [64.233.166.176]) by relay24i.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-10288319 for PSARC-ext@sun.com; Mon, 21 Jan 2008 06:12:22 +0000 (Z) Received: by py-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id p76so2487488pyb.5 for ; Sun, 20 Jan 2008 22:12:22 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.142.107.1 with SMTP id f1mr2959338wfc.77.1200895941395; Sun, 20 Jan 2008 22:12:21 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.143.125.4 with HTTP; Sun, 20 Jan 2008 22:12:21 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 01:12:21 -0500 From: Brian Gupta Subject: Re: PSARC 2008/043 Phase 1 of OSS for Solaris In-reply-to: <47941220.6050702@sun.com> To: Frank Che Cc: PSARC-ext@sun.com, audio-discuss@sun.com, Freeman.Liu@sun.com Message-id: <5b5090780801202212n331b728byc56a56613c7d3ebd@mail.gmail.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=f83NeEqGZKsI9/fvaYsc0g4DJ59PnhSvnsfxlurqVmo=; b=a10hKT2+pud+Yi9HSZyJvXBiBNg//g2FLRvY9L87ZJczu8fyRXT2Z/xp0nMntljzNR8bFgxdHcU/LOX99t7y+L85uqbPiEPxJi8AFcUO1JbKw5turTsO6JiAunrSCSgEnkTfL0rB6s6T6bA27zKsdd/9QB4YOopowzJAbjkom6w= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=Wk3oDUmVqfysHAa87+Q7oGkXffVcOnaJp+25TtLXdtmF0/VX3yjv0D8wX2lEY35rwEq1Dhrzqq+gs6pnv5maS3DNfq8ji8kNXODWBTRsQI4bhLa9oRvd2oZuNXb9iIeFG/h14Ai/z10a02ARhciTbE/ewWVdEbvchyCFbw3dG6s= X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== X-Antispam: No, score=-2.6/5.0, scanned in 0.116sec at (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smf-spamd v1.3.1 - http://smfs.sf.net/ References: <47941220.6050702@sun.com> Status: RO Content-Length: 5370 Is there any chance I can subscribe to audio-discuss? Or should audio-discuss be moved to opensolaris.org? Thanks, Brian On Jan 20, 2008 10:31 PM, Frank Che wrote: > I'm sponsoring this fast track for Freeman Liu and the audio team. > The requested binding is minor. The timer is set to 01/29/2008. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > 4.Technical Description > > This project is phase 1 of the umbrella project described in > "Open Sound System (OSS) for Solaris" (PSARC 2007/238) > There are two main goals of this phase. One is to integrate OSS high > definition audio driver "hdaudio" into Solaris to support the most > popular audio hardware. The other goal is to keep SADA > (Solaris Audio Driver Architecture) compatibility so that there will > be no regression for the current SADA applications. > > Theoretically, all the HD audio hardware will be supported. We will test > the ones supported by SADA HD audio driver to prevent regression. Several > other popular codecs will also be covered. > > The SADA compatibility is accomplished by an emulation layer named > "sadasupport". It is a pseudo SADA audio driver which provides SADA > interface to upper level. From the applications' point of view, it > is not different from other SADA drivers. On the other hand, it does > not operate the hardware directly. Instead, it accesses the device file > provided by the lower level OSS drivers through ldi interface. The > following diagram illustrates the relations between SADA framework, > sadasupport, OSS framework and OSS driver where there is a HD audio > hardware in the system > > |-------------| > User level |app1,app2 ...| > |------+------| > |(1) > | > |-----+----| |--------| > -------------------|/dev/audio|-----------------|/dev/dsp|------------------ > |-----+----| |-+--+---| > |(2) (4) | | > Kernel level | +--------------------+ |(5) > | | | > |--------------|(3)|-----+---+-| |---+---|(6)|-------------| > |SADA framework+---+sadasupport| |hdaudio+---+OSS framework| > |--------------| |-----------| |---+---| |-------------| > |(7) > |---+----| > |HD audio| > |hardware| > |--------| > > * (1),(2) Applications make audio requests through /dev/audio, > which is exported by sadasupport. > * (3) Sadasupport turns to SADA framework to fulfill the requests > * (4),(5) Sadasupport access hdaudio driver by ldi interface when > it needs service from hdaudio driver to complete the requests > * (6),(7) Hdaudio turn to OSS framework to fulfill the requests > and operate the hardware when needed. > > In phase 1, the device file "/dev/dsp" provided by OSS drivers is a > project private interface and only root user is able to access it. > No new interface will be published in this phase. Although HD audio > driver is replaced by OSS hdaudio driver, other SADA drivers will not > be replaced in phase 1. Drivers of the two different frameworks can work > together. SADA framework will not be removed, either. Detailed information > of SADA can be found in man pages: audio(7I), mixer(7I) and audio_support(7I). > > Summarily, we use OSS hdaudio driver to support HD audio hardware > and use sadasupport to maintain SADA compatibility. > > During the discussion of the umbrella case, the issue of latency has > been brought up. In this context, latency means the time gap between > the time hardware/driver is changed by other applications or by external > events and the time when applications sense it. And it should be > achieved without high CPU usage. It can be achieved by leverage > feature provided by SADA interface. Since SADA interface will be kept, > latency issues is addressed naturally. Consensus was reached during > the offline discussion. > > Here is the list of all kernel module and driver files: > osscommon > osscore > osscore.conf > sadasupport > sadasupport.conf > vmix > vmix.conf > hdaudio > hdaudio.conf > > Some of the tunables provided by the .conf files are for changing > some aspect of the OSS system. But the default value is suitable > in most case and they rarely need to be changed. Other tunable are > for debugging. > > All these files and the tunables are of project private stability in this > phase. They might be changed in the following phases. > > 5. Reference Documents: > > Open Sound System (OSS) for Solaris (PSARC 2007/238). > http://opensolaris.org/os/project/opensound > > > > > _______________________________________________ > opensolaris-arc mailing list > opensolaris-arc@opensolaris.org > -- - Brian Gupta http://opensolaris.org/os/project/nycosug/ From Glynn.Foster@sun.com Sun Jan 20 22:55:18 2008 Received: from sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m0L6tHon010269 for ; Sun, 20 Jan 2008 22:55:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m0L6tEh5011692; Mon, 21 Jan 2008 14:55:16 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JUZ00I07F81UD00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Sun, 20 Jan 2008 22:55:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com ([192.18.98.36]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JUZ0056TF80YX80@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Sun, 20 Jan 2008 22:55:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from fe-amer-09.sun.com ([192.18.109.79]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m0L6tC2T018234; Mon, 21 Jan 2008 06:55:12 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.mail-amer.sun.com by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0JUZ00I01F4FG800@mail-amer.sun.com> (original mail from Glynn.Foster@Sun.COM); Sun, 20 Jan 2008 23:55:12 -0700 (MST) Received: from [10.7.250.1] by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0JUZ00CVEF7V6920@mail-amer.sun.com>; Sun, 20 Jan 2008 23:55:12 -0700 (MST) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 19:54:56 +1300 From: Glynn Foster Subject: Re: PSARC 2008/043 Phase 1 of OSS for Solaris In-reply-to: <5b5090780801202212n331b728byc56a56613c7d3ebd@mail.gmail.com> Sender: Glynn.Foster@sun.com To: Brian Gupta Cc: Frank Che , PSARC-ext@sun.com, Freeman.Liu@sun.com, audio-discuss@sun.com Message-id: <479441C0.5060409@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <47941220.6050702@sun.com> <5b5090780801202212n331b728byc56a56613c7d3ebd@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (X11/20071012) Status: RO Content-Length: 221 Brian Gupta wrote: > Is there any chance I can subscribe to audio-discuss? Or should > audio-discuss be moved to opensolaris.org? opensound-discuss@opensolaris.org exists, and could be used in this discussion. Glynn From Frank.Che@sun.com Mon Jan 21 00:16:43 2008 Received: from newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (newsunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.245]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m0L8GhVh011976 for ; Mon, 21 Jan 2008 00:16:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m0L8GgnN032718; Mon, 21 Jan 2008 01:16:42 -0700 (MST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JUZ00G11IZT0G00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Mon, 21 Jan 2008 01:16:41 -0700 (MST) Received: from sineb-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.19.7]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JUZ00DJSIZQFK20@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Mon, 21 Jan 2008 01:16:40 -0700 (MST) Received: from fe-apac-03.sun.com (fe-apac-03.sun.com [192.18.19.174] (may be forged)) by sineb-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m0L8GctO008787; Mon, 21 Jan 2008 08:16:38 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.mail-apac.sun.com by mail-apac.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JUZ00J01IVH2600@mail-apac.sun.com> (original mail from Frank.Che@Sun.COM) ; Mon, 21 Jan 2008 16:16:38 +0800 (SGT) Received: from [129.158.218.60] by mail-apac.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JUZ00ASUIZOTQ60@mail-apac.sun.com>; Mon, 21 Jan 2008 16:16:38 +0800 (SGT) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 16:13:20 +0800 From: Frank Che Subject: Re: PSARC 2008/043 Phase 1 of OSS for Solaris In-reply-to: <479441C0.5060409@sun.com> Sender: Frank.Che@sun.com To: Brian Gupta Cc: Glynn Foster , PSARC-ext@sun.com, Freeman.Liu@sun.com, audio-discuss@sun.com Message-id: <47945420.9070109@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en-us, en X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <47941220.6050702@sun.com> <5b5090780801202212n331b728byc56a56613c7d3ebd@mail.gmail.com> <479441C0.5060409@sun.com> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; SunOS i86pc; en-US; rv:1.7) Gecko/20060627 Status: RO Content-Length: 555 I asked the project team. They confirmed that audio-discuss is an internal only mail alias. opensound-discuss@opensolaris.org is a good place for OSS related discussion. But I'm not sure everyone in that alias is interested in this discussion. Isn't psarc-ext alias enough? Frank. Glynn Foster wrote: >Brian Gupta wrote: > > >>Is there any chance I can subscribe to audio-discuss? Or should >>audio-discuss be moved to opensolaris.org? >> >> > >opensound-discuss@opensolaris.org exists, and could be used in this discussion. > > >Glynn > > From glenn.skinner@sun.com Tue Jan 22 16:58:44 2008 Received: from sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m0N0whDb003859 for ; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 16:58:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m0N0wUfc027991; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 08:58:42 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JV200M07O1S9S00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 16:58:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from ivrel.sfbay.sun.com ([129.146.74.76]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JV200KZVO1RJ020@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 16:58:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from ivrel (ivrel [129.146.74.76]) by ivrel.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with SMTP id m0N0wdGb022426; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 16:58:39 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 16:58:39 -0800 (PST) From: Glenn Skinner Subject: Re: 2008/043 [Phase 1 of OSS for Solaris] To: PSARC-ext@sun.com, Frank.Che@sun.com Cc: Freeman.Liu@sun.com, audio-discuss@sun.com Reply-to: Glenn Skinner Message-id: <200801230058.m0N0wdGb022426@ivrel.sfbay.sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: dtmail 1.3.0 @(#)CDE Version 1.6_36 SunOS 5.11 sun4u sparc Content-type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-MD5: PkjXCCg/byVn+SZytpXhPQ== X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 Status: RO Content-Length: 1381 Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 11:31:44 +0800 From: Frank Che Subject: PSARC 2008/043 Phase 1 of OSS for Solaris ... In phase 1, the device file "/dev/dsp" provided by OSS drivers is a project private interface and only root user is able to access it. No new interface will be published in this phase. Although HD audio driver is replaced by OSS hdaudio driver, other SADA drivers will not be replaced in phase 1. Drivers of the two different frameworks can work together. SADA framework will not be removed, either. Detailed information of SADA can be found in man pages: audio(7I), mixer(7I) and audio_support(7I). Do you intend to promote /dev/dsp to higher visibility in a future phase of the project? If not, you should consider removing it and have references to it refer instead to the corresponding node in /devices (which already has private visibility). When you say that only the root user can access /dev/dsp, do you mean to say that the underlying device file is owned by root and has permission 600? Or does the device's driver make explicit permission checks? [I've seen no resolution to the question of whether opensound-discuss@opensolaris.org should be used in addition to the psarc-ext alias, so I haven't changed addressing information in this response.] -- Glenn From Freeman.Liu@sun.com Tue Jan 22 18:48:47 2008 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m0N2mlaJ005633 for ; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 18:48:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m0N2mjJR013508; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 18:48:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JV200301T59EQ00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 19:48:45 -0700 (MST) Received: from sineb-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.19.7]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JV200C8NT57WM70@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 19:48:44 -0700 (MST) Received: from fe-apac-05.sun.com (fe-apac-05.sun.com [192.18.19.176] (may be forged)) by sineb-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m0N2mhlt010969; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 02:48:43 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.mail-apac.sun.com by mail-apac.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JV200B01T26JE00@mail-apac.sun.com> (original mail from Freeman.Liu@Sun.COM); Wed, 23 Jan 2008 10:48:42 +0800 (SGT) Received: from [129.158.218.121] by mail-apac.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JV2003WFT55MW0F@mail-apac.sun.com>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 10:48:42 +0800 (SGT) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 10:48:37 +0800 From: Freeman.Liu@sun.com Subject: Re: 2008/043 [Phase 1 of OSS for Solaris] In-reply-to: <200801230058.m0N0wdGb022426@ivrel.sfbay.sun.com> Sender: Freeman.Liu@sun.com To: Glenn Skinner Cc: PSARC-ext@sun.com, Frank.Che@sun.com, audio-discuss@sun.com Message-id: <4796AB05.4030103@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en-us, en X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200801230058.m0N0wdGb022426@ivrel.sfbay.sun.com> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; SunOS i86pc; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20041221 Status: RO Content-Length: 1666 Hi, Glenn, Thanks for your review. Comments inline. Glenn Skinner wrote: > Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 11:31:44 +0800 > From: Frank Che > Subject: PSARC 2008/043 Phase 1 of OSS for Solaris > > ... > In phase 1, the device file "/dev/dsp" provided by OSS drivers > is a project private interface and only root user is able to > access it. No new interface will be published in this phase. > Although HD audio driver is replaced by OSS hdaudio driver, > other SADA drivers will not be replaced in phase 1. Drivers of > the two different frameworks can work together. SADA framework > will not be removed, either. Detailed information of SADA can > be found in man pages: audio(7I), mixer(7I) and > audio_support(7I). > >Do you intend to promote /dev/dsp to higher visibility in a future >phase of the project? If not, you should consider removing it and >have references to it refer instead to the corresponding node in >/devices (which already has private visibility). > > Yes. Visibility and stability of /dev/dsp will be promoted in the following phases. >When you say that only the root user can access /dev/dsp, do you mean >to say that the underlying device file is owned by root and has >permission 600? Or does the device's driver make explicit permission >checks? > > It is owned by root and has permission 600. Best regards Freeman >[I've seen no resolution to the question of whether >opensound-discuss@opensolaris.org should be used in addition to the >psarc-ext alias, so I haven't changed addressing information in this >response.] > > > -- Glenn > > > From Milan.Jurik@sun.com Tue Jan 22 23:20:10 2008 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m0N7K9mB010025 for ; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 23:20:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m0N7K66p010182; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 07:20:08 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JV30030T5PHPL00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 00:20:05 -0700 (MST) Received: from gmp-eb-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.6.21]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JV3000KD5PFCZ10@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 00:20:03 -0700 (MST) Received: from fe-emea-10.sun.com (gmp-eb-lb-2-fe2.eu.sun.com [192.18.6.11]) by gmp-eb-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m0N7K2Zq003172; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 07:20:02 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.fe-emea-10.sun.com by fe-emea-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0JV300J015I11B00@fe-emea-10.sun.com> (original mail from Milan.Jurik@Sun.COM); Wed, 23 Jan 2008 07:20:02 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [213.220.243.114] by fe-emea-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0JV3005Z35P0GND0@fe-emea-10.sun.com>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 07:19:49 +0000 (GMT) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 08:21:24 +0100 From: Milan Jurik Subject: Re: 2008/043 [Phase 1 of OSS for Solaris] In-reply-to: <4796AB05.4030103@Sun.COM> Sender: Milan.Jurik@sun.com To: Freeman.Liu@sun.com Cc: PSARC-ext@sun.com, Frank.Che@sun.com, audio-discuss@sun.com Message-id: <1201072884.946.6.camel@localhost> Organization: Sun Microsystems Inc. MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.12.2 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200801230058.m0N0wdGb022426@ivrel.sfbay.sun.com> <4796AB05.4030103@Sun.COM> Status: RO Content-Length: 644 Hi Freeman, Freeman.Liu@Sun.COM píše v st 23. 01. 2008 v 10:48 +0800: > >When you say that only the root user can access /dev/dsp, do you mean > >to say that the underlying device file is owned by root and has > >permission 600? Or does the device's driver make explicit permission > >checks? > > > > > It is owned by root and has permission 600. > I know the external oss package can be "ignored", but today oss instalation gives permissions 666 to /dev/dsp What is the reason to "hide" it? It can be considered as regression against the actual situation, when this interface is widely known, stable and used. Best regards, Milan From Freeman.Liu@sun.com Wed Jan 23 01:47:44 2008 Received: from newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (newsunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.245]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m0N9lhFb012971 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 01:47:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m0N9lhPR010908; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 02:47:43 -0700 (MST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JV300205CJJNE00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 01:47:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from sineb-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.19.7]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JV300HBPCJHTL60@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 01:47:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from fe-apac-04.sun.com (fe-apac-04.sun.com [192.18.19.175] (may be forged)) by sineb-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m0N9leA5010207; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 09:47:40 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.mail-apac.sun.com by mail-apac.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JV300M01BZQIV00@mail-apac.sun.com> (original mail from Freeman.Liu@Sun.COM); Wed, 23 Jan 2008 17:47:40 +0800 (SGT) Received: from [129.150.144.38] by mail-apac.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JV300070CJ94QH0@mail-apac.sun.com>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 17:47:40 +0800 (SGT) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 17:47:31 +0800 From: Freeman Liu Subject: Re: 2008/043 [Phase 1 of OSS for Solaris] In-reply-to: <1201072884.946.6.camel@localhost> Sender: Freeman.Liu@sun.com To: Milan Jurik Cc: PSARC-ext@sun.com, Frank.Che@sun.com, audio-discuss@sun.com Message-id: <47970D33.6030500@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200801230058.m0N0wdGb022426@ivrel.sfbay.sun.com> <4796AB05.4030103@Sun.COM> <1201072884.946.6.camel@localhost> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.8.1.11) Gecko/20071128 SeaMonkey/1.1.7 Status: RO Content-Length: 1393 Milan Jurik wrote: > Hi Freeman, > > Freeman.Liu@Sun.COM píše v st 23. 01. 2008 v 10:48 +0800: > > >>> When you say that only the root user can access /dev/dsp, do you mean >>> to say that the underlying device file is owned by root and has >>> permission 600? Or does the device's driver make explicit permission >>> checks? >>> >>> >>> >> It is owned by root and has permission 600. >> >> > > I know the external oss package can be "ignored", but today oss > instalation gives permissions 666 to /dev/dsp > > What is the reason to "hide" it? It can be considered as regression > against the actual situation, when this interface is widely known, > stable and used. > First, the interface will be made public in the following phases. It is only hide for the time being. There are a lot of issues to solved to integrate OSS into Solaris. During the development process, we feel that it will be more convenient to achieve it in different phases. Therefore, we changed the original case 2007/238(OSS for Solaris) into a umbrella case. And this fast track is the first sub-project of the umbrella project. In this phase, we will solve two issues, HD audio hardware support and SADA compatibility support. For detailed information about the milestone of the whole project, please refer to the umbrella case. Best regards Freeman > Best regards, > > Milan > > From carlsonj@phorcys.east.sun.com Wed Jan 23 04:17:53 2008 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m0NCHrtI014836 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 04:17:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m0NCHnDr005245; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 04:17:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JV300409JHPZM00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 05:17:49 -0700 (MST) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com ([129.148.174.143]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JV3001XBJHOXW30@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 05:17:48 -0700 (MST) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.2+Sun/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m0NCHlpx005324; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 07:17:47 -0500 (EST) Received: (from carlsonj@localhost) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.2+Sun/8.14.2/Submit) id m0NCHlqr005321; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 07:17:47 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 07:17:47 -0500 From: James Carlson Subject: Re: 2008/043 [Phase 1 of OSS for Solaris] In-reply-to: <4796AB05.4030103@Sun.COM> To: Freeman.Liu@sun.com Cc: Glenn Skinner , PSARC-ext@sun.com, Frank.Che@sun.com, audio-discuss@sun.com Message-id: <18327.12395.796235.851513@gargle.gargle.HOWL> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: VM 7.01 under Emacs 21.3.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200801230058.m0N0wdGb022426@ivrel.sfbay.sun.com> <4796AB05.4030103@Sun.COM> Status: RO Content-Length: 838 Freeman.Liu@Sun.COM writes: > >Do you intend to promote /dev/dsp to higher visibility in a future > >phase of the project? If not, you should consider removing it and > >have references to it refer instead to the corresponding node in > >/devices (which already has private visibility). > > > > > Yes. Visibility and stability of /dev/dsp will be promoted in the > following phases. Given that /dev/dsp is a well-known name, and applications are quite likely to find it entirely by accident (for example, by way of ./configure tests), how will it be kept reasonably "private" until you're ready to expose it? -- James Carlson, Solaris Networking Sun Microsystems / 35 Network Drive 71.232W Vox +1 781 442 2084 MS UBUR02-212 / Burlington MA 01803-2757 42.496N Fax +1 781 442 1677 From binarycrusader@gmail.com Wed Jan 23 06:24:51 2008 Received: from newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (newsunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.245]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m0NEOpn5016414 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 06:24:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m0NEOnYB014131 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-ext@sun.com>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 07:24:50 -0700 (MST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JV300F3NPDE9200@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Wed, 23 Jan 2008 07:24:50 -0700 (MST) Received: from sca-ea-mail-4.sun.com ([192.18.43.22]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JV300EZ4PDC9V00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Wed, 23 Jan 2008 07:24:49 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay41i.sun.com ([192.5.209.70]) by sca-ea-mail-4.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m0NE1bo5000936 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 14:24:48 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mms49es.sun.com ([160.41.221.233] [160.41.221.233]) by relay41i.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-485606 for PSARC-ext@sun.com; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 14:24:48 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay43i.sun.com (relay43i.sun.com [192.5.209.74]) by mms49es.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-551237 for PSARC-ext@sun.com; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 14:24:48 +0000 (Z) Received: from nz-out-0506.google.com ([64.233.162.233] [64.233.162.233]) by relay4i.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-46468209 for PSARC-ext@sun.com; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 14:24:48 +0000 (Z) Received: by nz-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id z31so1714433nzd.23 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 06:24:47 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.140.147.18 with SMTP id u18mr6357610rvd.202.1201098287397; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 06:24:47 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.140.142.6 with HTTP; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 06:24:47 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 08:24:47 -0600 From: Shawn Walker Subject: Re: 2008/043 [Phase 1 of OSS for Solaris] In-reply-to: <18327.12395.796235.851513@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Sender: binarycrusader@gmail.com To: James Carlson Cc: Freeman.Liu@sun.com, Glenn Skinner , PSARC-ext@sun.com, Frank.Che@sun.com, audio-discuss@sun.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references:x-google-sender-auth; bh=hkV2aUlocEm38wLvbuGHxMGzmvd+bFQuqEyJkqALX5Q=; b=ZJqirfA+r6enZc83Xa6BkFGzyvlrCZBX53B2uHXOsn12VsjnGK9zFc5SGohcACFSNG6iLuZJe9Q8zkMm3Q98sS98eKjn5fqEBEnITJRqVVkl+WPPmtTzd2bS+9Z1pXliUViAbEHGuuQ6H6bGK0ODUF4YGNnlTzXpTGUztU9Vh7A= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=ibQ9XGwmU21GVPEl6vXIQb/8WTdCU/mFcm+CGG+FWBHX8P7r3uJt2AV5Zo+mjEt6CaOSUgxpSkBnte5TfTtYKe1MuxRw6//Wi0FnJSJigO2C7NBu6XdJPLY/qYYWb5or/duGveWLLXNt3gBX0PR7ELoXZWjr0DhK3XILc+k8twQ= X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== X-Google-Sender-Auth: 01331c52bc49241e X-Antispam: No, score=-2.6/5.0, scanned in 0.059sec at (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smf-spamd v1.3.1 - http://smfs.sf.net/ References: <200801230058.m0N0wdGb022426@ivrel.sfbay.sun.com> <4796AB05.4030103@Sun.COM> <18327.12395.796235.851513@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Status: RO Content-Length: 1020 On Jan 23, 2008 6:17 AM, James Carlson wrote: > Freeman.Liu@Sun.COM writes: > > >Do you intend to promote /dev/dsp to higher visibility in a future > > >phase of the project? If not, you should consider removing it and > > >have references to it refer instead to the corresponding node in > > >/devices (which already has private visibility). > > > > > > > > Yes. Visibility and stability of /dev/dsp will be promoted in the > > following phases. > > Given that /dev/dsp is a well-known name, and applications are quite > likely to find it entirely by accident (for example, by way of > ./configure tests), how will it be kept reasonably "private" until > you're ready to expose it? This would be my concern as well. Many "portable" audio libraries check for the existence of this file and assume you have OSS if it exists. -- Shawn Walker, Software and Systems Analyst http://binarycrusader.blogspot.com/ "To err is human -- and to blame it on a computer is even more so." - Robert Orben From Freeman.Liu@sun.com Wed Jan 23 06:33:59 2008 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m0NEXwOW016754 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 06:33:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m0NEXpUP029219; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 14:33:55 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JV300F0BPSHW600@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 07:33:53 -0700 (MST) Received: from sineb-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.19.6]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JV300EXZPSF9T10@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 07:33:52 -0700 (MST) Received: from fe-apac-03.sun.com (fe-apac-03.sun.com [192.18.19.174] (may be forged)) by sineb-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m0NEXp5J021082; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 14:33:51 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.mail-apac.sun.com by mail-apac.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JV300A01PPO9S00@mail-apac.sun.com> (original mail from Freeman.Liu@Sun.COM); Wed, 23 Jan 2008 22:33:50 +0800 (SGT) Received: from [129.150.144.26] by mail-apac.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JV300AQ9PSDTQU0@mail-apac.sun.com>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 22:33:50 +0800 (SGT) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 22:33:46 +0800 From: Freeman Liu Subject: Re: 2008/043 [Phase 1 of OSS for Solaris] In-reply-to: <18327.12395.796235.851513@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Sender: Freeman.Liu@sun.com To: James Carlson Cc: Glenn Skinner , PSARC-ext@sun.com, Frank.Che@sun.com, audio-discuss@sun.com Message-id: <4797504A.8020302@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200801230058.m0N0wdGb022426@ivrel.sfbay.sun.com> <4796AB05.4030103@Sun.COM> <18327.12395.796235.851513@gargle.gargle.HOWL> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.8.1.11) Gecko/20071128 SeaMonkey/1.1.7 Status: RO Content-Length: 1028 James Carlson wrote: > Freeman.Liu@Sun.COM writes: > >>> Do you intend to promote /dev/dsp to higher visibility in a future >>> phase of the project? If not, you should consider removing it and >>> have references to it refer instead to the corresponding node in >>> /devices (which already has private visibility). >>> >>> >>> >> Yes. Visibility and stability of /dev/dsp will be promoted in the >> following phases. >> > > Given that /dev/dsp is a well-known name, and applications are quite > likely to find it entirely by accident (for example, by way of > ./configure tests), how will it be kept reasonably "private" until > you're ready to expose it? > Taking these applications into consideration, we can change the name to something else, for example, /dev/private_dsp, and it will be found by those applications. As for sadasupport, the change is trivial. And sadasupport is the only consumer of this device file in this phase. Do you think it a reasonable approach ? Best regards Freeman From carlsonj@phorcys.east.sun.com Wed Jan 23 06:38:45 2008 Received: from sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m0NEchNk016868 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 06:38:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m0NEcOuD022406; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 22:38:40 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JV300M13Q0CBQ00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 06:38:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com ([129.148.174.143]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JV300J48Q09EIF0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 06:38:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.2+Sun/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m0NEcXqf006019; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 09:38:33 -0500 (EST) Received: (from carlsonj@localhost) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.2+Sun/8.14.2/Submit) id m0NEcXsr006016; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 09:38:33 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 09:38:33 -0500 From: James Carlson Subject: Re: 2008/043 [Phase 1 of OSS for Solaris] In-reply-to: <4797504A.8020302@sun.com> To: Freeman Liu Cc: Glenn Skinner , PSARC-ext@sun.com, Frank.Che@sun.com, audio-discuss@sun.com Message-id: <18327.20841.30942.709902@gargle.gargle.HOWL> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: VM 7.01 under Emacs 21.3.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200801230058.m0N0wdGb022426@ivrel.sfbay.sun.com> <4796AB05.4030103@Sun.COM> <18327.12395.796235.851513@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4797504A.8020302@sun.com> Status: RO Content-Length: 1166 Freeman Liu writes: > James Carlson wrote: > > Given that /dev/dsp is a well-known name, and applications are quite > > likely to find it entirely by accident (for example, by way of > > ./configure tests), how will it be kept reasonably "private" until > > you're ready to expose it? > > > > Taking these applications into consideration, we can change the name to > something else, for example, > /dev/private_dsp, and it will be found by those applications. As for > sadasupport, the change is trivial. > And sadasupport is the only consumer of this device file in this phase. > > Do you think it a reasonable approach ? That'd be fine. Glenn's suggestion (temporarily omitting the /dev link) would work as well. That approach requires you to be temporarily dependent on the devfs implementation details, while the "private_dsp" scheme seems a little simpler. As long as there's a plan to avoid inadvertent confusion, I'm happy. -- James Carlson, Solaris Networking Sun Microsystems / 35 Network Drive 71.232W Vox +1 781 442 2084 MS UBUR02-212 / Burlington MA 01803-2757 42.496N Fax +1 781 442 1677 From Darren.Moffat@sun.com Wed Jan 23 06:45:10 2008 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m0NEjALA017031 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 06:45:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m0NEj9MF006881; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 06:45:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JV300M01QB8XT00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 06:45:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from gmp-eb-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.6.24]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JV300MXNQB6EV20@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 06:45:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from fe-emea-10.sun.com (gmp-eb-lb-2-fe3.eu.sun.com [192.18.6.12]) by gmp-eb-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m0NEj55E027723; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 14:45:05 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.fe-emea-10.sun.com by fe-emea-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0JV300101Q7FKH00@fe-emea-10.sun.com> (original mail from Darren.Moffat@Sun.COM); Wed, 23 Jan 2008 14:45:05 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [129.156.173.199] by fe-emea-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0JV300I6BQAX2G20@fe-emea-10.sun.com>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 14:44:57 +0000 (GMT) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 14:44:57 +0000 From: Darren J Moffat Subject: Re: 2008/043 [Phase 1 of OSS for Solaris] In-reply-to: <4797504A.8020302@sun.com> Sender: Darren.Moffat@sun.com To: Freeman Liu Cc: James Carlson , Glenn Skinner , PSARC-ext@sun.com, Frank.Che@sun.com, audio-discuss@sun.com Message-id: <479752E9.6010703@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200801230058.m0N0wdGb022426@ivrel.sfbay.sun.com> <4796AB05.4030103@Sun.COM> <18327.12395.796235.851513@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4797504A.8020302@sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (X11/20071119) Status: RO Content-Length: 685 Freeman Liu wrote: >> Given that /dev/dsp is a well-known name, and applications are quite >> likely to find it entirely by accident (for example, by way of >> ./configure tests), how will it be kept reasonably "private" until >> you're ready to expose it? >> > > Taking these applications into consideration, we can change the name to > something else, for example, > /dev/private_dsp, and it will be found by those applications. As for > sadasupport, the change is trivial. > And sadasupport is the only consumer of this device file in this phase. Why does is the /dev/ entry needed at all ? What in userland needs to open that /dev/ entry and use it ? -- Darren J Moffat From gww@eng.sun.com Wed Jan 23 07:03:35 2008 Received: from sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m0NF3Xsc017657 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 07:03:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m0NF3VIq001586; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 23:03:32 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JV300G05R5UJC00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 07:03:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from dm-eng-02.sfbay.sun.com ([129.146.11.32]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JV300B1UR5TTS90@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 07:03:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from marduk.eng.sun.com (marduk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.108.224]) by dm-eng-02.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m0NF3SYi042028; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 07:03:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from marduk.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by marduk.eng.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m0NF2FER018500; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 07:02:15 -0800 (PST) Received: (from gww@localhost) by marduk.eng.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.11/Submit) id m0NF2FsS018499; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 07:02:15 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 07:02:15 -0800 (PST) From: Gary Winiger Subject: Re: 2008/043 [Phase 1 of OSS for Solaris] To: Freeman.Liu@sun.com, glenn.skinner@sun.com Cc: Frank.Che@sun.com, PSARC-ext@sun.com, audio-discuss@sun.com Message-id: <200801231502.m0NF2FsS018499@marduk.eng.sun.com> Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 Status: RO Content-Length: 445 > Yes. Visibility and stability of /dev/dsp will be promoted in the > following phases. > > >When you say that only the root user can access /dev/dsp, do you mean > >to say that the underlying device file is owned by root and has > >permission 600? Or does the device's driver make explicit permission > >checks? > > > > > It is owned by root and has permission 600. What suid 0 programs are required that are not present in S10? Gary.. From Freeman.Liu@sun.com Wed Jan 23 07:25:41 2008 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m0NFPe95017832 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 07:25:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m0NFPD3E022208; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 15:25:38 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JV300315S6OA500@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 07:25:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from sineb-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.19.6]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JV300132S6G7320@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 07:25:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from fe-apac-03.sun.com (fe-apac-03.sun.com [192.18.19.174] (may be forged)) by sineb-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m0NFPSag022306; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 15:25:28 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.mail-apac.sun.com by mail-apac.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JV300B01RNXY900@mail-apac.sun.com> (original mail from Freeman.Liu@Sun.COM); Wed, 23 Jan 2008 23:25:28 +0800 (SGT) Received: from [129.150.144.13] by mail-apac.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JV300A99S6ETQV0@mail-apac.sun.com>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 23:25:27 +0800 (SGT) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 23:25:26 +0800 From: Freeman Liu Subject: Re: 2008/043 [Phase 1 of OSS for Solaris] In-reply-to: <479752E9.6010703@Sun.COM> Sender: Freeman.Liu@sun.com To: Darren J Moffat Cc: James Carlson , Glenn Skinner , PSARC-ext@sun.com, Frank.Che@sun.com, audio-discuss@sun.com Message-id: <47975C66.20308@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200801230058.m0N0wdGb022426@ivrel.sfbay.sun.com> <4796AB05.4030103@Sun.COM> <18327.12395.796235.851513@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4797504A.8020302@sun.com> <479752E9.6010703@Sun.COM> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.8.1.11) Gecko/20071128 SeaMonkey/1.1.7 Status: RO Content-Length: 961 Darren J Moffat wrote: > Freeman Liu wrote: >>> Given that /dev/dsp is a well-known name, and applications are quite >>> likely to find it entirely by accident (for example, by way of >>> ./configure tests), how will it be kept reasonably "private" until >>> you're ready to expose it? >>> >> >> Taking these applications into consideration, we can change the name >> to something else, for example, >> /dev/private_dsp, and it will be found by those applications. As for >> sadasupport, the change is trivial. >> And sadasupport is the only consumer of this device file in this phase. > > Why does is the /dev/ entry needed at all ? What in userland needs to > open that /dev/ entry and use it ? > In this phase, only sadasupport open it by ldi_ interface. And in the future, both user land applications and sadasupport will use it. I feel this solution can avoid unexpected effect as well as make the future migration smooth. Best regards Freeman From Freeman.Liu@sun.com Wed Jan 23 07:29:45 2008 Received: from sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m0NFTiPw017848 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 07:29:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m0NFTaxJ011270; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 23:29:42 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JV300J0ZSDEZF00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 08:29:38 -0700 (MST) Received: from sineb-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.19.6]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JV300EXPSDD9T60@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 08:29:38 -0700 (MST) Received: from fe-apac-01.sun.com (fe-apac-01.sun.com [192.18.19.172] (may be forged)) by sineb-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m0NFTaCf022376; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 15:29:36 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.mail-apac.sun.com by mail-apac.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JV300K01RJD1W00@mail-apac.sun.com> (original mail from Freeman.Liu@Sun.COM); Wed, 23 Jan 2008 23:29:36 +0800 (SGT) Received: from [129.150.144.13] by mail-apac.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JV300GU1SDBVB11@mail-apac.sun.com>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 23:29:36 +0800 (SGT) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 23:29:35 +0800 From: Freeman Liu Subject: Re: 2008/043 [Phase 1 of OSS for Solaris] In-reply-to: <200801231502.m0NF2FsS018499@marduk.eng.sun.com> Sender: Freeman.Liu@sun.com To: Gary Winiger Cc: glenn.skinner@sun.com, Frank.Che@sun.com, PSARC-ext@sun.com, audio-discuss@sun.com Message-id: <47975D5F.1040707@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200801231502.m0NF2FsS018499@marduk.eng.sun.com> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.8.1.11) Gecko/20071128 SeaMonkey/1.1.7 Status: RO Content-Length: 865 Gary Winiger wrote: >> Yes. Visibility and stability of /dev/dsp will be promoted in the >> following phases. >> >> >>> When you say that only the root user can access /dev/dsp, do you mean >>> to say that the underlying device file is owned by root and has >>> permission 600? Or does the device's driver make explicit permission >>> checks? >>> >>> >>> >> It is owned by root and has permission 600. >> > > What suid 0 programs are required that are not present in S10? > I am not sure if I understand you correct. I guess you think that since the 600 permission, there must be some suid 0 applications to use it. Actually, there is no such applications, this file will only be used by sadasupport. We make the permission 600 to avoid normal users to open it. Correct me if I misunderstand you. Best regards Freeman > Gary.. > From gdamore@sun.com Wed Jan 23 07:49:31 2008 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m0NFnV1e017906 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 07:49:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m0NFnUIH028116; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 07:49:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JV300L05TAIB900@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 08:49:30 -0700 (MST) Received: from sca-es-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.43.133]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JV300EYATAI9T80@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 08:49:30 -0700 (MST) Received: from fe-sfbay-10.sun.com ([192.18.43.129]) by sca-es-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m0NFnTsq009509; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 07:49:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from conversion-daemon.fe-sfbay-10.sun.com by fe-sfbay-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0JV300G01T7VQL00@fe-sfbay-10.sun.com> (original mail from gdamore@sun.com) ; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 07:49:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.251.106] ([76.174.83.55]) by fe-sfbay-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0JV300LQPTA81480@fe-sfbay-10.sun.com>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 07:49:21 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 07:48:54 -0800 From: "Garrett D'Amore" Subject: Re: 2008/043 [Phase 1 of OSS for Solaris] In-reply-to: <47975D5F.1040707@sun.com> Sender: Garrett.Damore@sun.com To: Freeman Liu Cc: Gary Winiger , glenn.skinner@sun.com, Frank.Che@sun.com, PSARC-ext@sun.com, audio-discuss@sun.com Message-id: <479761E6.70106@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200801231502.m0NF2FsS018499@marduk.eng.sun.com> <47975D5F.1040707@sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (X11/20071023) Status: RO Content-Length: 1239 Freeman Liu wrote: > Gary Winiger wrote: >>> Yes. Visibility and stability of /dev/dsp will be promoted in the >>> following phases. >>> >>> >>>> When you say that only the root user can access /dev/dsp, do you mean >>>> to say that the underlying device file is owned by root and has >>>> permission 600? Or does the device's driver make explicit permission >>>> checks? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> It is owned by root and has permission 600. >>> >> >> What suid 0 programs are required that are not present in S10? >> > I am not sure if I understand you correct. I guess you think that > since the 600 permission, there must > be some suid 0 applications to use it. Actually, there is no such > applications, this file will only be > used by sadasupport. We make the permission 600 to avoid normal users > to open it. > Correct me if I misunderstand you. If its only used internally, there was a way (IIRC) to create a "ddi-internal-pathname" so that only in-kernel components could see the node. I forgot the actual call, but IIRC the keyboard/mouse code on SPARC does this. That might be a preferable solution, or at least worth investigation. -- Garrett > > Best regards > Freeman >> Gary.. >> > From Freeman.Liu@sun.com Wed Jan 23 08:03:03 2008 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m0NG33uT018504 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 08:03:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m0NG31Nb010048; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 08:03:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JV300M0HTX17200@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 09:03:01 -0700 (MST) Received: from sineb-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.19.7]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JV300E8XTWZ9VA0@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 09:03:00 -0700 (MST) Received: from fe-apac-03.sun.com (fe-apac-03.sun.com [192.18.19.174] (may be forged)) by sineb-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m0NG2xko022007; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 16:02:59 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.mail-apac.sun.com by mail-apac.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JV300D01TN0C400@mail-apac.sun.com> (original mail from Freeman.Liu@Sun.COM); Thu, 24 Jan 2008 00:02:59 +0800 (SGT) Received: from [129.150.144.13] by mail-apac.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JV300AH2TWXTQV0@mail-apac.sun.com>; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 00:02:58 +0800 (SGT) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 00:02:57 +0800 From: Freeman Liu Subject: Re: 2008/043 [Phase 1 of OSS for Solaris] In-reply-to: <479761E6.70106@sun.com> Sender: Freeman.Liu@sun.com To: "Garrett D'Amore" Cc: Gary Winiger , glenn.skinner@sun.com, Frank.Che@sun.com, PSARC-ext@sun.com, audio-discuss@sun.com Message-id: <47976531.9010507@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200801231502.m0NF2FsS018499@marduk.eng.sun.com> <47975D5F.1040707@sun.com> <479761E6.70106@sun.com> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.8.1.11) Gecko/20071128 SeaMonkey/1.1.7 Status: RO Content-Length: 1586 Garrett D'Amore wrote: > Freeman Liu wrote: >> Gary Winiger wrote: >>>> Yes. Visibility and stability of /dev/dsp will be promoted in the >>>> following phases. >>>> >>>> >>>>> When you say that only the root user can access /dev/dsp, do you mean >>>>> to say that the underlying device file is owned by root and has >>>>> permission 600? Or does the device's driver make explicit permission >>>>> checks? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> It is owned by root and has permission 600. >>>> >>> >>> What suid 0 programs are required that are not present in S10? >>> >> I am not sure if I understand you correct. I guess you think that >> since the 600 permission, there must >> be some suid 0 applications to use it. Actually, there is no such >> applications, this file will only be >> used by sadasupport. We make the permission 600 to avoid normal users >> to open it. >> Correct me if I misunderstand you. > > If its only used internally, there was a way (IIRC) to create a > "ddi-internal-pathname" so that only in-kernel components could see > the node. I forgot the actual call, but IIRC the keyboard/mouse code > on SPARC does this. > > That might be a preferable solution, or at least worth investigation. Actually, we have thought about that solution. The main reason that we take the current approach is that /dev/dsp will be promoted to public interface in the following phases and this approach will make the migration smooth with only trivial change. Best regards Freeman > > -- Garrett >> >> Best regards >> Freeman >>> Gary.. >>> >> > From Torrey.McMahon@sun.com Wed Jan 23 08:10:49 2008 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m0NGAn4i018613 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 08:10:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m0NGAgc4011992; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 16:10:46 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JV30061DU9WZ800@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 08:10:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.98.43]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JV30013UU9T7370@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 08:10:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from fe-amer-09.sun.com ([192.18.109.79]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m0NGAfRQ017338; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 16:10:41 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.mail-amer.sun.com by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0JV300301QN78800@mail-amer.sun.com> (original mail from Torrey.McMahon@Sun.COM); Wed, 23 Jan 2008 09:10:41 -0700 (MST) Received: from [192.168.1.100] ([69.143.17.185]) by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0JV3004BRU9JL020@mail-amer.sun.com>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 09:10:33 -0700 (MST) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 11:10:32 -0500 From: Torrey McMahon Subject: Re: 2008/043 [Phase 1 of OSS for Solaris] In-reply-to: <18327.20841.30942.709902@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Sender: Torrey.McMahon@sun.com To: James Carlson Cc: Freeman Liu , Glenn Skinner , PSARC-ext@sun.com, Frank.Che@sun.com, audio-discuss@sun.com Message-id: <479766F8.2080503@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200801230058.m0N0wdGb022426@ivrel.sfbay.sun.com> <4796AB05.4030103@Sun.COM> <18327.12395.796235.851513@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4797504A.8020302@sun.com> <18327.20841.30942.709902@gargle.gargle.HOWL> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Windows/20071031) Status: RO Content-Length: 1240 James Carlson wrote: > Freeman Liu writes: > >> James Carlson wrote: >> >>> Given that /dev/dsp is a well-known name, and applications are quite >>> likely to find it entirely by accident (for example, by way of >>> ./configure tests), how will it be kept reasonably "private" until >>> you're ready to expose it? >>> >>> >> Taking these applications into consideration, we can change the name to >> something else, for example, >> /dev/private_dsp, and it will be found by those applications. As for >> sadasupport, the change is trivial. >> And sadasupport is the only consumer of this device file in this phase. >> >> Do you think it a reasonable approach ? >> > > That'd be fine. Glenn's suggestion (temporarily omitting the /dev > link) would work as well. That approach requires you to be > temporarily dependent on the devfs implementation details, while the > "private_dsp" scheme seems a little simpler. As long as there's a > plan to avoid inadvertent confusion, I'm happy. > > Why do I see a configure script being written in the near future with a comment that says.... For some %#$%@ reason Sun calls its dsp device "private_dsp". This is pretty weird but we can look for it anyway. From gww@eng.sun.com Wed Jan 23 08:12:31 2008 Received: from sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m0NGCUiJ018647 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 08:12:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m0NGCSWj026560; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 00:12:29 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JV300M0RUCRT200@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 09:12:27 -0700 (MST) Received: from dm-eng-02.sfbay.sun.com ([129.146.11.32]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JV300E56UCP9TB0@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 09:12:25 -0700 (MST) Received: from marduk.eng.sun.com (marduk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.108.224]) by dm-eng-02.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m0NGCNqO013958; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 08:12:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from marduk.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by marduk.eng.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m0NGBBKK018980; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 08:11:11 -0800 (PST) Received: (from gww@localhost) by marduk.eng.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.11/Submit) id m0NGBBut018979; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 08:11:11 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 08:11:11 -0800 (PST) From: Gary Winiger Subject: Re: 2008/043 [Phase 1 of OSS for Solaris] To: gww@eng.sun.com, Freeman.Liu@sun.com Cc: glenn.skinner@sun.com, Frank.Che@sun.com, PSARC-ext@sun.com, audio-discuss@sun.com Message-id: <200801231611.m0NGBBut018979@marduk.eng.sun.com> Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 Status: RO Content-Length: 1219 > Gary Winiger wrote: > >> Yes. Visibility and stability of /dev/dsp will be promoted in the > >> following phases. > >> > >> > >>> When you say that only the root user can access /dev/dsp, do you mean > >>> to say that the underlying device file is owned by root and has > >>> permission 600? Or does the device's driver make explicit permission > >>> checks? > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> It is owned by root and has permission 600. > >> > > > > What suid 0 programs are required that are not present in S10? > > > I am not sure if I understand you correct. I guess you think that since > the 600 permission, there must > be some suid 0 applications to use it. Actually, there is no such > applications, this file will only be > used by sadasupport. We make the permission 600 to avoid normal users to > open it. > Correct me if I misunderstand you. That's it. So what is sadasupport and why does it run with privilege? How is this used by the normal user to access sound? It seems to me that if anyone is to use /dev/dsp through this project there needs to be some intermediary. I must admit I've not gone back to the case to look. I'll try to get there before PSARC today. Gary.. From Freeman.Liu@sun.com Wed Jan 23 08:23:05 2008 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m0NGN5w9018740 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 08:23:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m0NGN3QS017211; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 08:23:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JV30001LUUGKM00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 09:23:04 -0700 (MST) Received: from sineb-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.19.7]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JV300E1NUUC9RA0@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 09:23:01 -0700 (MST) Received: from fe-apac-04.sun.com (fe-apac-04.sun.com [192.18.19.175] (may be forged)) by sineb-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m0NGN0GY022418; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 16:23:00 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.mail-apac.sun.com by mail-apac.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JV300F01UFE3N00@mail-apac.sun.com> (original mail from Freeman.Liu@Sun.COM); Thu, 24 Jan 2008 00:23:00 +0800 (SGT) Received: from [129.150.144.13] by mail-apac.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JV30006TUUA4QK0@mail-apac.sun.com>; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 00:23:00 +0800 (SGT) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 00:22:58 +0800 From: Freeman Liu Subject: Re: 2008/043 [Phase 1 of OSS for Solaris] In-reply-to: <200801231611.m0NGBBut018979@marduk.eng.sun.com> Sender: Freeman.Liu@sun.com To: Gary Winiger Cc: glenn.skinner@sun.com, Frank.Che@sun.com, PSARC-ext@sun.com, audio-discuss@sun.com Message-id: <479769E2.3010907@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200801231611.m0NGBBut018979@marduk.eng.sun.com> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.8.1.11) Gecko/20071128 SeaMonkey/1.1.7 Status: RO Content-Length: 1327 >> I am not sure if I understand you correct. I guess you think that since >> the 600 permission, there must >> be some suid 0 applications to use it. Actually, there is no such >> applications, this file will only be >> used by sadasupport. We make the permission 600 to avoid normal users to >> open it. >> Correct me if I misunderstand you. >> > > That's it. So what is sadasupport and why does it run with > privilege? How is this used by the normal user to access > sound? It seems to me that if anyone is to use /dev/dsp through > this project there needs to be some intermediary. I must admit > I've not gone back to the case to look. I'll try to get there > before PSARC today. > > The two main goals of the case is to integration OSS HD audio driver and keep SADA compatiblity. Other issues will be address in the following cases. Sadasupport is a pseudo SADA driver which provides SADA interface to upper level applications and calls into lower OSS HD audio driver "hdaudio" by ldi_ interface to operate hardware. From this point of view, it is kind of a middle layer software. By this way, we can keep SADA compatibility perfectly. This is kind of involving and if I haven't explained it clear enough, please point it out and let me try again :) Best regards Freeman > Gary.. > From Freeman.Liu@sun.com Wed Jan 23 08:27:50 2008 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m0NGRoGq018757 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 08:27:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m0NGRnEe019357; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 08:27:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JV300J01V2DCM00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 08:27:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from sineb-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.19.6]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JV300JJYV298200@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 08:27:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from fe-apac-01.sun.com (fe-apac-01.sun.com [192.18.19.172] (may be forged)) by sineb-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m0NGRjRh023619; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 16:27:45 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.mail-apac.sun.com by mail-apac.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JV300L01TE0W000@mail-apac.sun.com> (original mail from Freeman.Liu@Sun.COM); Thu, 24 Jan 2008 00:27:45 +0800 (SGT) Received: from [129.150.144.13] by mail-apac.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JV300GCXV27VB21@mail-apac.sun.com>; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 00:27:44 +0800 (SGT) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 00:27:42 +0800 From: Freeman Liu Subject: Re: 2008/043 [Phase 1 of OSS for Solaris] In-reply-to: <479766F8.2080503@sun.com> Sender: Freeman.Liu@sun.com To: Torrey McMahon Cc: James Carlson , Glenn Skinner , PSARC-ext@sun.com, Frank.Che@sun.com, audio-discuss@sun.com Message-id: <47976AFE.6070707@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200801230058.m0N0wdGb022426@ivrel.sfbay.sun.com> <4796AB05.4030103@Sun.COM> <18327.12395.796235.851513@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4797504A.8020302@sun.com> <18327.20841.30942.709902@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <479766F8.2080503@sun.com> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.8.1.11) Gecko/20071128 SeaMonkey/1.1.7 Status: RO Content-Length: 507 >> > > > Why do I see a configure script being written in the near future with > a comment that says.... > > For some %#$%@ reason Sun calls its dsp device "private_dsp". This > is pretty weird but we can look for it anyway. > Where is this script come from ? For OSS, /dev/dsp is the interface for applications and for Sun Audio (SADA), /dev/audio is. It is really weird to see private_dsp in Sun Audio system. Does this script refer to some very old version of Solaris ? Thank you Freeman From Darren.Moffat@sun.com Wed Jan 23 08:28:06 2008 Received: from newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (newsunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.245]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m0NGS5u1018769 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 08:28:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m0NGRuq6056262; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 09:28:05 -0700 (MST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JV300J5VV2SCP00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 08:28:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from gmp-eb-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.6.24]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JV300JLAV2R8600@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 08:28:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from fe-emea-09.sun.com (gmp-eb-lb-2-fe1.eu.sun.com [192.18.6.10]) by gmp-eb-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m0NGS3Nj011327; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 16:28:03 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.fe-emea-09.sun.com by fe-emea-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0JV300F01URZAO00@fe-emea-09.sun.com> (original mail from Darren.Moffat@Sun.COM); Wed, 23 Jan 2008 16:28:03 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [129.156.173.199] by fe-emea-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0JV300IO6V2LKK20@fe-emea-09.sun.com>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 16:27:58 +0000 (GMT) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 16:27:57 +0000 From: Darren J Moffat Subject: Re: 2008/043 [Phase 1 of OSS for Solaris] In-reply-to: <47975C66.20308@sun.com> Sender: Darren.Moffat@sun.com To: Freeman Liu Cc: James Carlson , Glenn Skinner , PSARC-ext@sun.com, Frank.Che@sun.com, audio-discuss@sun.com Message-id: <47976B0D.4090301@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200801230058.m0N0wdGb022426@ivrel.sfbay.sun.com> <4796AB05.4030103@Sun.COM> <18327.12395.796235.851513@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4797504A.8020302@sun.com> <479752E9.6010703@Sun.COM> <47975C66.20308@sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (X11/20071119) Status: RO Content-Length: 1181 Freeman Liu wrote: > Darren J Moffat wrote: >> Freeman Liu wrote: >>>> Given that /dev/dsp is a well-known name, and applications are quite >>>> likely to find it entirely by accident (for example, by way of >>>> ./configure tests), how will it be kept reasonably "private" until >>>> you're ready to expose it? >>>> >>> >>> Taking these applications into consideration, we can change the name >>> to something else, for example, >>> /dev/private_dsp, and it will be found by those applications. As for >>> sadasupport, the change is trivial. >>> And sadasupport is the only consumer of this device file in this phase. >> >> Why does is the /dev/ entry needed at all ? What in userland needs to >> open that /dev/ entry and use it ? >> > In this phase, only sadasupport open it by ldi_ interface. And in the > future, both user land applications and > sadasupport will use it. I feel this solution can avoid unexpected > effect as well as make the future migration > smooth. So in this case there is no userland program that will ever need to open /dev/dsp ? If so then I think the best option is not to create it at all even as /dev/private/dsp. -- Darren J Moffat From Torrey.McMahon@sun.com Wed Jan 23 08:30:33 2008 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m0NGUWo1018785 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 08:30:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m0NGULox020692; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 16:30:30 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JV300J11V6TI100@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 08:30:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com ([192.18.98.34]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JV300JXUV6S8800@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 08:30:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from fe-amer-10.sun.com ([192.18.109.80]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m0NGUSc2007517; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 16:30:28 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.mail-amer.sun.com by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0JV300901UHFKA00@mail-amer.sun.com> (original mail from Torrey.McMahon@Sun.COM); Wed, 23 Jan 2008 09:30:28 -0700 (MST) Received: from [192.168.1.100] ([69.143.17.185]) by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0JV300IZJV6KVW70@mail-amer.sun.com>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 09:30:21 -0700 (MST) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 11:30:20 -0500 From: Torrey McMahon Subject: Re: 2008/043 [Phase 1 of OSS for Solaris] In-reply-to: <47976AFE.6070707@sun.com> Sender: Torrey.McMahon@sun.com To: Freeman Liu Cc: James Carlson , Glenn Skinner , PSARC-ext@sun.com, Frank.Che@sun.com, audio-discuss@sun.com Message-id: <47976B9C.30200@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200801230058.m0N0wdGb022426@ivrel.sfbay.sun.com> <4796AB05.4030103@Sun.COM> <18327.12395.796235.851513@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4797504A.8020302@sun.com> <18327.20841.30942.709902@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <479766F8.2080503@sun.com> <47976AFE.6070707@sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Windows/20071031) Status: RO Content-Length: 691 Freeman Liu wrote: > >>> >> >> >> Why do I see a configure script being written in the near future with >> a comment that says.... >> >> For some %#$%@ reason Sun calls its dsp device "private_dsp". This >> is pretty weird but we can look for it anyway. >> > Where is this script come from ? For OSS, /dev/dsp is the interface > for applications and > for Sun Audio (SADA), /dev/audio is. It is really weird to see > private_dsp in Sun Audio system. > Does this script refer to some very old version of Solaris ? > > Thank you > Freeman > No. My point was that if you hide/change the name then it will not stop someone from finding it and using it. Sorry if that wasn't clear. From Freeman.Liu@sun.com Wed Jan 23 08:32:33 2008 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m0NGWWfb018871 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 08:32:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m0NGWRKb022122; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 16:32:30 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JV30083LVA3SW00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 08:32:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from sineb-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.19.6]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JV3001VAVA17390@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 08:32:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from fe-apac-06.sun.com (fe-apac-06.sun.com [192.18.19.177] (may be forged)) by sineb-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m0NGWPcd023698; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 16:32:25 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.mail-apac.sun.com by mail-apac.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JV300D01V993I00@mail-apac.sun.com> (original mail from Freeman.Liu@Sun.COM); Thu, 24 Jan 2008 00:32:25 +0800 (SGT) Received: from [129.150.144.13] by mail-apac.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JV300H4QV9ZA1CK@mail-apac.sun.com>; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 00:32:25 +0800 (SGT) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 00:32:22 +0800 From: Freeman Liu Subject: Re: 2008/043 [Phase 1 of OSS for Solaris] In-reply-to: <47976B0D.4090301@Sun.COM> Sender: Freeman.Liu@sun.com To: Darren J Moffat Cc: James Carlson , Glenn Skinner , PSARC-ext@sun.com, Frank.Che@sun.com, audio-discuss@sun.com Message-id: <47976C16.9060101@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200801230058.m0N0wdGb022426@ivrel.sfbay.sun.com> <4796AB05.4030103@Sun.COM> <18327.12395.796235.851513@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4797504A.8020302@sun.com> <479752E9.6010703@Sun.COM> <47975C66.20308@sun.com> <47976B0D.4090301@Sun.COM> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.8.1.11) Gecko/20071128 SeaMonkey/1.1.7 Status: RO Content-Length: 799 >>> >> In this phase, only sadasupport open it by ldi_ interface. And in the >> future, both user land applications and >> sadasupport will use it. I feel this solution can avoid unexpected >> effect as well as make the future migration >> smooth. > > So in this case there is no userland program that will ever need to > open /dev/dsp ? If so then I think the best option is not to create > it at all even as /dev/private/dsp. From this point of view, you are right. While from another point of view, since the visibility of this interface will be promoted in following phases, we feel the current approach is a simple one without too much risk. Anyway, if any serious concern emerges which we have overlooked, making it a internal node will be a good approach. Best regards Freeman From Darren.Moffat@sun.com Wed Jan 23 08:39:43 2008 Received: from newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (newsunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.245]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m0NGdgVm018969 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 08:39:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m0NGdeeg060585; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 09:39:42 -0700 (MST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JV300J2NVM3QZ00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 08:39:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from gmp-eb-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.6.21]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JV300J7QVM18820@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 08:39:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from fe-emea-09.sun.com (gmp-eb-lb-2-fe1.eu.sun.com [192.18.6.10]) by gmp-eb-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m0NGdbGP005305; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 16:39:37 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.fe-emea-09.sun.com by fe-emea-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0JV300E01VGMH900@fe-emea-09.sun.com> (original mail from Darren.Moffat@Sun.COM); Wed, 23 Jan 2008 16:39:37 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [129.156.173.199] by fe-emea-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0JV300IPPVLKKK20@fe-emea-09.sun.com>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 16:39:21 +0000 (GMT) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 16:39:19 +0000 From: Darren J Moffat Subject: Re: 2008/043 [Phase 1 of OSS for Solaris] In-reply-to: <47976C16.9060101@sun.com> Sender: Darren.Moffat@sun.com To: Freeman Liu Cc: James Carlson , Glenn Skinner , PSARC-ext@sun.com, Frank.Che@sun.com, audio-discuss@sun.com Message-id: <47976DB7.7040806@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200801230058.m0N0wdGb022426@ivrel.sfbay.sun.com> <4796AB05.4030103@Sun.COM> <18327.12395.796235.851513@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4797504A.8020302@sun.com> <479752E9.6010703@Sun.COM> <47975C66.20308@sun.com> <47976B0D.4090301@Sun.COM> <47976C16.9060101@sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (X11/20071119) Status: RO Content-Length: 1219 Freeman Liu wrote: > >>>> >>> In this phase, only sadasupport open it by ldi_ interface. And in the >>> future, both user land applications and >>> sadasupport will use it. I feel this solution can avoid unexpected >>> effect as well as make the future migration >>> smooth. >> >> So in this case there is no userland program that will ever need to >> open /dev/dsp ? If so then I think the best option is not to create >> it at all even as /dev/private/dsp. > From this point of view, you are right. While from another point of > view, since the visibility of this interface will be promoted in > following phases, Best to only make it visible when it is usable for the reasons others have pointed out. Also if for some reason the future cases never happened or end up being different we aren't left with an unusable /dev/dsp in the namespace. > we feel the current approach is a simple one without too much risk. > Anyway, if any serious concern emerges which we have overlooked, making > it a internal node will be a good approach. I believe what you are hearing from ARC memebers is that the risk of having /dev/dsp visible when it isn't usable is too high to be acceptable. -- Darren J Moffat From Freeman.Liu@sun.com Wed Jan 23 08:41:00 2008 Received: from sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m0NGew48019028 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 08:40:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m0NGeaLE007731; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 00:40:56 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JV30011HVO4SD00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 09:40:52 -0700 (MST) Received: from sineb-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.19.6]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JV300EQIVO19RB0@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 09:40:50 -0700 (MST) Received: from fe-apac-01.sun.com (fe-apac-01.sun.com [192.18.19.172] (may be forged)) by sineb-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m0NGenJC023875; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 16:40:49 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.mail-apac.sun.com by mail-apac.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JV300L01TE0W000@mail-apac.sun.com> (original mail from Freeman.Liu@Sun.COM); Thu, 24 Jan 2008 00:40:49 +0800 (SGT) Received: from [129.150.144.13] by mail-apac.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JV300GH0VNZVB21@mail-apac.sun.com>; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 00:40:49 +0800 (SGT) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 00:40:47 +0800 From: Freeman Liu Subject: Re: 2008/043 [Phase 1 of OSS for Solaris] In-reply-to: <47976B9C.30200@sun.com> Sender: Freeman.Liu@sun.com To: Torrey McMahon Cc: James Carlson , Glenn Skinner , PSARC-ext@sun.com, Frank.Che@sun.com, audio-discuss@sun.com Message-id: <47976E0F.5010806@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200801230058.m0N0wdGb022426@ivrel.sfbay.sun.com> <4796AB05.4030103@Sun.COM> <18327.12395.796235.851513@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4797504A.8020302@sun.com> <18327.20841.30942.709902@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <479766F8.2080503@sun.com> <47976AFE.6070707@sun.com> <47976B9C.30200@sun.com> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.8.1.11) Gecko/20071128 SeaMonkey/1.1.7 Status: RO Content-Length: 1290 Torrey McMahon wrote: > Freeman Liu wrote: >> >>>> >>> >>> >>> Why do I see a configure script being written in the near future >>> with a comment that says.... >>> >>> For some %#$%@ reason Sun calls its dsp device "private_dsp". This >>> is pretty weird but we can look for it anyway. >>> >> Where is this script come from ? For OSS, /dev/dsp is the interface >> for applications and >> for Sun Audio (SADA), /dev/audio is. It is really weird to see >> private_dsp in Sun Audio system. >> Does this script refer to some very old version of Solaris ? >> >> Thank you >> Freeman >> > > No. My point was that if you hide/change the name then it will not > stop someone from finding it and using it. Sorry if that wasn't clear. On the one hand, for the existing applicaions which probe /dev/dsp, a new name will avoid them. On the other hand, if someone want to leverage this interface to compromise the system, then he has to be root for the permission of this interface is 600 and owner is root. And for the developers who want to user audio on Solaris, he can turn to /dev/audio instead of hacking /dev/private_dsp. Is that your main concern ? If so, do you think this approach is safe enough ? Or are there any weak points we have overlooked ? Best regards Freeman From gdamore@sun.com Wed Jan 23 08:58:13 2008 Received: from sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m0NGwCTM019693 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 08:58:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m0NGw6NR014375; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 00:58:10 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JV30020JWGVVY00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 09:58:07 -0700 (MST) Received: from sca-es-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.43.133]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JV300EAJWGT9ZE0@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 09:58:06 -0700 (MST) Received: from fe-sfbay-09.sun.com ([192.18.43.129]) by sca-es-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m0NGw5TM016333; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 08:58:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from conversion-daemon.fe-sfbay-09.sun.com by fe-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0JV300201WG8DT00@fe-sfbay-09.sun.com> (original mail from gdamore@sun.com) ; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 08:58:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.251.106] ([76.174.83.55]) by fe-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0JV300C3BWGNL1C0@fe-sfbay-09.sun.com>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 08:58:00 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 08:57:33 -0800 From: "Garrett D'Amore" Subject: Re: 2008/043 [Phase 1 of OSS for Solaris] In-reply-to: <47976531.9010507@sun.com> Sender: Garrett.Damore@sun.com To: Freeman Liu Cc: Gary Winiger , glenn.skinner@sun.com, Frank.Che@sun.com, PSARC-ext@sun.com, audio-discuss@sun.com Message-id: <479771FD.2070407@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200801231502.m0NF2FsS018499@marduk.eng.sun.com> <47975D5F.1040707@sun.com> <479761E6.70106@sun.com> <47976531.9010507@sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (X11/20071023) Status: RO Content-Length: 2335 Freeman Liu wrote: > Garrett D'Amore wrote: >> Freeman Liu wrote: >>> Gary Winiger wrote: >>>>> Yes. Visibility and stability of /dev/dsp will be promoted in the >>>>> following phases. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> When you say that only the root user can access /dev/dsp, do you >>>>>> mean >>>>>> to say that the underlying device file is owned by root and has >>>>>> permission 600? Or does the device's driver make explicit >>>>>> permission >>>>>> checks? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> It is owned by root and has permission 600. >>>>> >>>> >>>> What suid 0 programs are required that are not present in S10? >>>> >>> I am not sure if I understand you correct. I guess you think that >>> since the 600 permission, there must >>> be some suid 0 applications to use it. Actually, there is no such >>> applications, this file will only be >>> used by sadasupport. We make the permission 600 to avoid normal >>> users to open it. >>> Correct me if I misunderstand you. >> >> If its only used internally, there was a way (IIRC) to create a >> "ddi-internal-pathname" so that only in-kernel components could see >> the node. I forgot the actual call, but IIRC the keyboard/mouse code >> on SPARC does this. >> >> That might be a preferable solution, or at least worth investigation. > Actually, we have thought about that solution. The main reason that we > take the current approach is that /dev/dsp will be promoted to public > interface in the following phases and this approach will make the > migration smooth with only trivial change. From my perspective, if the /dev/dsp interface is private, and has no consumers in userland today, then it is very very wrong to publish it. Its not hard to change the call to ddi_create_internal_pathname (or whatever) into ddi_create_minor_node() in the future, when you are ready to make it public. Otherwise, if the interface is stable enough that you think it is ready to be made public *today*, then I'd like to see that done *now*, rather than putting the node out there, hoping you won't change it, and if you do, that nobody uses it. (In other words, either commit to the public interface, or don't expose it. Pick one.) -- Garrett > > Best regards > Freeman >> >> -- Garrett >>> >>> Best regards >>> Freeman >>>> Gary.. >>>> >>> >> > From Freeman.Liu@sun.com Wed Jan 23 08:58:20 2008 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m0NGwJ5V019706 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 08:58:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m0NGwCjp004159; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 16:58:17 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JV300K0BWH2DY00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 08:58:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from sineb-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.19.7]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JV300J9XWH18840@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 08:58:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from fe-apac-01.sun.com (fe-apac-01.sun.com [192.18.19.172] (may be forged)) by sineb-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m0NGwDAd022955; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 16:58:13 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.mail-apac.sun.com by mail-apac.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JV300101VZW3100@mail-apac.sun.com> (original mail from Freeman.Liu@Sun.COM); Thu, 24 Jan 2008 00:58:12 +0800 (SGT) Received: from [129.150.144.13] by mail-apac.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JV300GLZWGZVB21@mail-apac.sun.com>; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 00:58:12 +0800 (SGT) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 00:58:10 +0800 From: Freeman Liu Subject: Re: 2008/043 [Phase 1 of OSS for Solaris] In-reply-to: <47976DB7.7040806@Sun.COM> Sender: Freeman.Liu@sun.com To: Darren J Moffat Cc: James Carlson , Glenn Skinner , PSARC-ext@sun.com, Frank.Che@sun.com, audio-discuss@sun.com Message-id: <47977222.7020609@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200801230058.m0N0wdGb022426@ivrel.sfbay.sun.com> <4796AB05.4030103@Sun.COM> <18327.12395.796235.851513@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4797504A.8020302@sun.com> <479752E9.6010703@Sun.COM> <47975C66.20308@sun.com> <47976B0D.4090301@Sun.COM> <47976C16.9060101@sun.com> <47976DB7.7040806@Sun.COM> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.8.1.11) Gecko/20071128 SeaMonkey/1.1.7 Status: RO Content-Length: 1875 Hi, Darren, Thanks for the clarification. Although we will surely begin phase 2 after phase 1 and address the other issues including stability of /dev/dsp, we will take the other approach mentioned by Garrett to make this node an internal path that only visible to kernel because the risk of having /dev/dsp visible but not usuable. However, to be blunt, I have not seen any practical serious risks to do so besides it is kind of ugly. Therefore, I will be grateful if you can explain further here. I feel here is a window through which I can look into the architecture world. Best regards Freeman Darren J Moffat wrote: > Freeman Liu wrote: >> >>>>> >>>> In this phase, only sadasupport open it by ldi_ interface. And in >>>> the future, both user land applications and >>>> sadasupport will use it. I feel this solution can avoid unexpected >>>> effect as well as make the future migration >>>> smooth. >>> >>> So in this case there is no userland program that will ever need to >>> open /dev/dsp ? If so then I think the best option is not to create >>> it at all even as /dev/private/dsp. > >> From this point of view, you are right. While from another point of >> view, since the visibility of this interface will be promoted in >> following phases, > > Best to only make it visible when it is usable for the reasons others > have pointed out. > > Also if for some reason the future cases never happened or end up > being different we aren't left with an unusable /dev/dsp in the > namespace. > >> we feel the current approach is a simple one without too much risk. >> Anyway, if any serious concern emerges which we have overlooked, making >> it a internal node will be a good approach. > > I believe what you are hearing from ARC memebers is that the risk of > having /dev/dsp visible when it isn't usable is too high to be > acceptable. > From carlsonj@phorcys.east.sun.com Wed Jan 23 09:00:31 2008 Received: from sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m0NH0Uvs019866 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 09:00:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m0NH05l6014887; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 01:00:24 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JV300B3PWKM4A00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 09:00:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com ([129.148.174.143]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JV3001I5WKC6VB0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 09:00:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.2+Sun/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m0NH0Ckm006827; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 12:00:12 -0500 (EST) Received: (from carlsonj@localhost) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.2+Sun/8.14.2/Submit) id m0NH0COx006824; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 12:00:12 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 12:00:12 -0500 From: James Carlson Subject: Re: 2008/043 [Phase 1 of OSS for Solaris] In-reply-to: <47976B9C.30200@sun.com> To: Torrey McMahon Cc: Freeman Liu , Glenn Skinner , PSARC-ext@sun.com, Frank.Che@sun.com, audio-discuss@sun.com Message-id: <18327.29340.660284.799146@gargle.gargle.HOWL> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: VM 7.01 under Emacs 21.3.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200801230058.m0N0wdGb022426@ivrel.sfbay.sun.com> <4796AB05.4030103@Sun.COM> <18327.12395.796235.851513@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4797504A.8020302@sun.com> <18327.20841.30942.709902@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <479766F8.2080503@sun.com> <47976AFE.6070707@sun.com> <47976B9C.30200@sun.com> Status: RO Content-Length: 1123 Torrey McMahon writes: > Freeman Liu wrote: > > Where is this script come from ? For OSS, /dev/dsp is the interface > > for applications and > > for Sun Audio (SADA), /dev/audio is. It is really weird to see > > private_dsp in Sun Audio system. > > Does this script refer to some very old version of Solaris ? > > > > Thank you > > Freeman > > > > No. My point was that if you hide/change the name then it will not stop > someone from finding it and using it. Sorry if that wasn't clear. The goal wasn't to "stop" that person. It's not a security or privacy issue. The goal was to avoid having people stumble into it unwittingly because of generic features that are intended to support other platforms. If someone drives off the deep end and adds code as you suggest without even bothering to contact the community that created the code, well, they'll probably get everything they deserve. -- James Carlson, Solaris Networking Sun Microsystems / 35 Network Drive 71.232W Vox +1 781 442 2084 MS UBUR02-212 / Burlington MA 01803-2757 42.496N Fax +1 781 442 1677 From Freeman.Liu@sun.com Wed Jan 23 09:00:38 2008 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m0NH0bJM019881 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 09:00:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m0NH0bnO028680; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 09:00:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JV300K6LWL0F100@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 09:00:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from sineb-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.19.6]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JV300JI3WK58840@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 09:00:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from fe-apac-01.sun.com (fe-apac-01.sun.com [192.18.19.172] (may be forged)) by sineb-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m0NH05Id024133; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 17:00:05 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.mail-apac.sun.com by mail-apac.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JV300101VZW3100@mail-apac.sun.com> (original mail from Freeman.Liu@Sun.COM); Thu, 24 Jan 2008 01:00:05 +0800 (SGT) Received: from [129.150.144.13] by mail-apac.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JV300GMFWK3VB21@mail-apac.sun.com>; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 01:00:05 +0800 (SGT) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 01:00:03 +0800 From: Freeman Liu Subject: Re: 2008/043 [Phase 1 of OSS for Solaris] In-reply-to: <479771FD.2070407@sun.com> Sender: Freeman.Liu@sun.com To: "Garrett D'Amore" Cc: Gary Winiger , glenn.skinner@sun.com, Frank.Che@sun.com, PSARC-ext@sun.com, audio-discuss@sun.com Message-id: <47977293.2070105@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200801231502.m0NF2FsS018499@marduk.eng.sun.com> <47975D5F.1040707@sun.com> <479761E6.70106@sun.com> <47976531.9010507@sun.com> <479771FD.2070407@sun.com> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.8.1.11) Gecko/20071128 SeaMonkey/1.1.7 Status: RO Content-Length: 2542 Garrett D'Amore wrote: > Freeman Liu wrote: >> Garrett D'Amore wrote: >>> Freeman Liu wrote: >>>> Gary Winiger wrote: >>>>>> Yes. Visibility and stability of /dev/dsp will be promoted in the >>>>>> following phases. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> When you say that only the root user can access /dev/dsp, do you >>>>>>> mean >>>>>>> to say that the underlying device file is owned by root and has >>>>>>> permission 600? Or does the device's driver make explicit >>>>>>> permission >>>>>>> checks? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> It is owned by root and has permission 600. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> What suid 0 programs are required that are not present in S10? >>>>> >>>> I am not sure if I understand you correct. I guess you think that >>>> since the 600 permission, there must >>>> be some suid 0 applications to use it. Actually, there is no such >>>> applications, this file will only be >>>> used by sadasupport. We make the permission 600 to avoid normal >>>> users to open it. >>>> Correct me if I misunderstand you. >>> >>> If its only used internally, there was a way (IIRC) to create a >>> "ddi-internal-pathname" so that only in-kernel components could see >>> the node. I forgot the actual call, but IIRC the keyboard/mouse >>> code on SPARC does this. >>> >>> That might be a preferable solution, or at least worth investigation. >> Actually, we have thought about that solution. The main reason that >> we take the current approach is that /dev/dsp will be promoted to >> public interface in the following phases and this approach will make >> the migration smooth with only trivial change. > > From my perspective, if the /dev/dsp interface is private, and has no > consumers in userland today, then it is very very wrong to publish it. > > Its not hard to change the call to ddi_create_internal_pathname (or > whatever) into ddi_create_minor_node() in the future, when you are > ready to make it public. > > Otherwise, if the interface is stable enough that you think it is > ready to be made public *today*, then I'd like to see that done *now*, > rather than putting the node out there, hoping you won't change it, > and if you do, that nobody uses it. (In other words, either commit to > the public interface, or don't expose it. Pick one.) After all these discussion, I feel the rule here and I accept your suggestion. Best regards Freeman > > -- Garrett >> >> Best regards >> Freeman >>> >>> -- Garrett >>>> >>>> Best regards >>>> Freeman >>>>> Gary.. >>>>> >>>> >>> >> > From randy.fishel@sun.com Wed Jan 23 09:01:49 2008 Received: from sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m0NH1mwh019925 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 09:01:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m0NH1eAw015623; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 01:01:47 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JV300315WMY4C00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 10:01:46 -0700 (MST) Received: from dm-eng-01.sfbay.sun.com ([129.145.155.198]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JV300E2NWMW9UF0@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 10:01:44 -0700 (MST) Received: from grimmy.eng.sun.com (grimmy.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.108.114]) by dm-eng-01.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m0NH1fPH059892; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 09:01:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from grimmy.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grimmy.eng.sun.com (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.10) with ESMTP id m0NH15G7021048; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 09:01:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (randyf@localhost) by grimmy.eng.sun.com (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.10/Submit) with ESMTP id m0NH15ml021044; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 09:01:05 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 09:01:05 -0800 (PST) From: Randy Fishel Subject: Re: 2008/043 [Phase 1 of OSS for Solaris] In-reply-to: <47976C16.9060101@sun.com> X-X-Sender: randyf@grimmy To: Freeman Liu Cc: Darren J Moffat , James Carlson , Glenn Skinner , PSARC-ext@sun.com, Frank.Che@sun.com, audio-discuss@sun.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200801230058.m0N0wdGb022426@ivrel.sfbay.sun.com> <4796AB05.4030103@Sun.COM> <18327.12395.796235.851513@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4797504A.8020302@sun.com> <479752E9.6010703@Sun.COM> <47975C66.20308@sun.com> <47976B0D.4090301@Sun.COM> <47976C16.9060101@sun.com> X-Authentication-warning: grimmy.eng.sun.com: randyf owned process doing -bs Status: RO Content-Length: 1200 On Thu, 24 Jan 2008, Freeman Liu wrote: > > > > > > > > In this phase, only sadasupport open it by ldi_ interface. And in the > > > future, both user land applications and > > > sadasupport will use it. I feel this solution can avoid unexpected effect > > > as well as make the future migration > > > smooth. > > > > So in this case there is no userland program that will ever need to open > > /dev/dsp ? If so then I think the best option is not to create it at all > > even as /dev/private/dsp. > From this point of view, you are right. While from another point of view, > since the visibility of this interface will be promoted in following phases, > we feel the current approach is a simple one without too much risk. Anyway, if > any serious concern emerges which we have overlooked, making > it a internal node will be a good approach. > It seems to me that the best answer is for phase 1 apps to open the /devices/ name and not create the /dev/ link. When you want to promote it, effectively all you need to do is create the link. Apps that hunt for it in /devices will still continue to work, and there is no rename problem. Seems like the lowest risk to me. ---- Randy From Freeman.Liu@sun.com Wed Jan 23 09:12:28 2008 Received: from newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (newsunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.245]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m0NHCRFp020408 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 09:12:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m0NHCPcd006946; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 10:12:26 -0700 (MST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JV30030PX4PT000@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 10:12:25 -0700 (MST) Received: from sineb-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.19.7]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JV3003D4X4LEB00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 10:12:22 -0700 (MST) Received: from fe-apac-01.sun.com (fe-apac-01.sun.com [192.18.19.172] (may be forged)) by sineb-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m0NHCKpZ023173; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 17:12:20 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.mail-apac.sun.com by mail-apac.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JV300101VZW3100@mail-apac.sun.com> (original mail from Freeman.Liu@Sun.COM); Thu, 24 Jan 2008 01:12:20 +0800 (SGT) Received: from [129.150.144.13] by mail-apac.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JV300GPZX4JVB21@mail-apac.sun.com>; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 01:12:20 +0800 (SGT) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 01:12:18 +0800 From: Freeman Liu Subject: Re: 2008/043 [Phase 1 of OSS for Solaris] In-reply-to: Sender: Freeman.Liu@sun.com To: Randy Fishel Cc: Darren J Moffat , James Carlson , Glenn Skinner , PSARC-ext@sun.com, Frank.Che@sun.com, audio-discuss@sun.com Message-id: <47977572.20801@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200801230058.m0N0wdGb022426@ivrel.sfbay.sun.com> <4796AB05.4030103@Sun.COM> <18327.12395.796235.851513@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4797504A.8020302@sun.com> <479752E9.6010703@Sun.COM> <47975C66.20308@sun.com> <47976B0D.4090301@Sun.COM> <47976C16.9060101@sun.com> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.8.1.11) Gecko/20071128 SeaMonkey/1.1.7 Status: RO Content-Length: 1471 Randy Fishel wrote: > On Thu, 24 Jan 2008, Freeman Liu wrote: > > >>>> In this phase, only sadasupport open it by ldi_ interface. And in the >>>> future, both user land applications and >>>> sadasupport will use it. I feel this solution can avoid unexpected effect >>>> as well as make the future migration >>>> smooth. >>>> >>> So in this case there is no userland program that will ever need to open >>> /dev/dsp ? If so then I think the best option is not to create it at all >>> even as /dev/private/dsp. >>> >> From this point of view, you are right. While from another point of view, >> since the visibility of this interface will be promoted in following phases, >> we feel the current approach is a simple one without too much risk. Anyway, if >> any serious concern emerges which we have overlooked, making >> it a internal node will be a good approach. >> >> > > It seems to me that the best answer is for phase 1 apps to open the > /devices/ name and not create the /dev/ link. When you want to > promote it, effectively all you need to do is create the link. Apps > that hunt for it in /devices will still continue to work, and there is > no rename problem. Seems like the lowest risk to me. > The path under the /devices is not fixed. Is there some way like grep in kernel to filter nodes whose name includes hdaudio? Or we will use internal path only visable to kernel. Best regards Freeman > > ---- Randy > > From gww@eng.sun.com Wed Jan 23 09:15:44 2008 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m0NHFiUB020427 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 09:15:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m0NHFgSK029071; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 09:15:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JV300C0RXA7QU00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 09:15:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from dm-eng-02.sfbay.sun.com ([129.146.11.32]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JV3001JNXA471D0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 09:15:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from marduk.eng.sun.com (marduk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.108.224]) by dm-eng-02.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m0NHFcre054384; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 09:15:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from marduk.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by marduk.eng.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m0NHEPaM019151; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 09:14:25 -0800 (PST) Received: (from gww@localhost) by marduk.eng.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.11/Submit) id m0NHEP6H019150; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 09:14:25 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 09:14:25 -0800 (PST) From: Gary Winiger Subject: Re: 2008/043 [Phase 1 of OSS for Solaris] To: gww@eng.sun.com, Freeman.Liu@sun.com Cc: glenn.skinner@sun.com, Frank.Che@sun.com, PSARC-ext@sun.com, audio-discuss@sun.com Message-id: <200801231714.m0NHEP6H019150@marduk.eng.sun.com> Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 Status: RO Content-Length: 421 > This is kind of involving and if I haven't explained it clear enough, > please point it out and let me try again :) OK. I went back and looked at the case materials. It seems the user interface in phase 1 is /dev/audio and /dev/dsp is only there as a programming convenience for the kernel code. IMO, it would be better to introduce /dev/dsp when there is a user interface, but I'm not hung up on it. Gary.. From carlsonj@phorcys.east.sun.com Wed Jan 23 09:19:24 2008 Received: from sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m0NHJN2S020673 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 09:19:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m0NHJGZr022753; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 01:19:20 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JV300L0BXG52700@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 09:19:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com ([129.148.174.143]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JV300J3HXG48260@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 09:19:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.2+Sun/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m0NHJFhc006987; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 12:19:15 -0500 (EST) Received: (from carlsonj@localhost) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.2+Sun/8.14.2/Submit) id m0NHJFGT006984; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 12:19:15 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 12:19:15 -0500 From: James Carlson Subject: Re: 2008/043 [Phase 1 of OSS for Solaris] In-reply-to: <479771FD.2070407@sun.com> To: "Garrett D'Amore" Cc: Freeman Liu , glenn.skinner@sun.com, PSARC-ext@sun.com, audio-discuss@sun.com, Frank.Che@sun.com, Gary Winiger Message-id: <18327.30483.396084.483707@gargle.gargle.HOWL> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: VM 7.01 under Emacs 21.3.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200801231502.m0NF2FsS018499@marduk.eng.sun.com> <47975D5F.1040707@sun.com> <479761E6.70106@sun.com> <47976531.9010507@sun.com> <479771FD.2070407@sun.com> Status: RO Content-Length: 1157 Garrett D'Amore writes: > From my perspective, if the /dev/dsp interface is private, and has no > consumers in userland today, then it is very very wrong to publish it. No, that's not the issue. I don't know what you mean by the word "publish" here. If you mean documentation, then this is private, so there's no documentation published. If you mean the contents of readdir("/dev"), then there's no such requirement, and that's not "publishing" under any typical ARC usage. "Private" means "not documented." It also means that if it's feasible and reasonable, we'll obscure it so that you don't blunder into it. The issue I've been pointing out is that this *particular* name is famous. It's available on many systems -- including Solaris! -- so there will indeed be applications looking for it by that name. If it's not intended to be used casually by people who think they know what it is, *then* it needs to be hidden. -- James Carlson, Solaris Networking Sun Microsystems / 35 Network Drive 71.232W Vox +1 781 442 2084 MS UBUR02-212 / Burlington MA 01803-2757 42.496N Fax +1 781 442 1677 From randy.fishel@sun.com Wed Jan 23 09:28:29 2008 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m0NHSSQm021379 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 09:28:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m0NHSPh8018576; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 17:28:27 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JV300403XVDZX00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 10:28:25 -0700 (MST) Received: from dm-eng-01.sfbay.sun.com ([129.145.155.198]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JV3003EUXVCET10@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 10:28:24 -0700 (MST) Received: from grimmy.eng.sun.com (grimmy.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.108.114]) by dm-eng-01.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m0NHSLCV011930; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 09:28:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from grimmy.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grimmy.eng.sun.com (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.10) with ESMTP id m0NHRkG7021112; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 09:27:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (randyf@localhost) by grimmy.eng.sun.com (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.10/Submit) with ESMTP id m0NHRj67021108; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 09:27:45 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 09:27:45 -0800 (PST) From: Randy Fishel Subject: Re: 2008/043 [Phase 1 of OSS for Solaris] In-reply-to: <47977572.20801@sun.com> X-X-Sender: randyf@grimmy To: Freeman Liu Cc: Randy Fishel , Darren J Moffat , James Carlson , Glenn Skinner , PSARC-ext@sun.com, Frank.Che@sun.com, audio-discuss@sun.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200801230058.m0N0wdGb022426@ivrel.sfbay.sun.com> <4796AB05.4030103@Sun.COM> <18327.12395.796235.851513@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4797504A.8020302@sun.com> <479752E9.6010703@Sun.COM> <47975C66.20308@sun.com> <47976B0D.4090301@Sun.COM> <47976C16.9060101@sun.com> <47977572.20801@sun.com> X-Authentication-warning: grimmy.eng.sun.com: randyf owned process doing -bs Status: RO Content-Length: 449 > > > The path under the /devices is not fixed. Is there some way like grep in > kernel to filter nodes whose > name includes hdaudio? Or we will use internal path only visable to kernel. > > Best regards > Freeman Why isn't it fixed, OSS controls this path? It may be a long (and potentially ugly) name, but it shouldn't change. Is it directly associated with hardware that might have different driver names or node ids? ---- Randy From randy.fishel@sun.com Wed Jan 23 09:30:50 2008 Received: from sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m0NHUnqp021700 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 09:30:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m0NHUht2027295; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 01:30:46 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JV300L1HXZ7QA00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 09:30:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from dm-eng-02.sfbay.sun.com ([129.146.11.32]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JV300J8HXZ68270@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 09:30:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from grimmy.eng.sun.com (grimmy.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.108.114]) by dm-eng-02.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m0NHUeTx063975; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 09:30:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from grimmy.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grimmy.eng.sun.com (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.10) with ESMTP id m0NHU5G7021128; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 09:30:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (randyf@localhost) by grimmy.eng.sun.com (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.10/Submit) with ESMTP id m0NHU54A021124; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 09:30:05 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 09:30:05 -0800 (PST) From: Randy Fishel Subject: Re: 2008/043 [Phase 1 of OSS for Solaris] In-reply-to: <47977293.2070105@sun.com> X-X-Sender: randyf@grimmy To: Freeman Liu Cc: "Garrett D'Amore" , Gary Winiger , glenn.skinner@sun.com, Frank.Che@sun.com, PSARC-ext@sun.com, audio-discuss@sun.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200801231502.m0NF2FsS018499@marduk.eng.sun.com> <47975D5F.1040707@sun.com> <479761E6.70106@sun.com> <47976531.9010507@sun.com> <479771FD.2070407@sun.com> <47977293.2070105@sun.com> X-Authentication-warning: grimmy.eng.sun.com: randyf owned process doing -bs Status: RO Content-Length: 87 Also, will the added drivers support DDI_SUSPEND and DDI_RESUME? ---- Randy From Freeman.Liu@sun.com Wed Jan 23 09:33:57 2008 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m0NHXuD9021770 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 09:33:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m0NHXu6A004161; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 09:33:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JV300L03Y4KT600@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 09:33:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from sineb-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.19.7]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JV300JLVY4J8270@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 09:33:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from fe-apac-05.sun.com (fe-apac-05.sun.com [192.18.19.176] (may be forged)) by sineb-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m0NHXsZ1023440; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 17:33:54 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.mail-apac.sun.com by mail-apac.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JV300401XXGHN00@mail-apac.sun.com> (original mail from Freeman.Liu@Sun.COM); Thu, 24 Jan 2008 01:33:54 +0800 (SGT) Received: from [129.150.144.13] by mail-apac.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JV3003WRY4HMWBI@mail-apac.sun.com>; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 01:33:54 +0800 (SGT) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 01:33:52 +0800 From: Freeman Liu Subject: Re: 2008/043 [Phase 1 of OSS for Solaris] In-reply-to: Sender: Freeman.Liu@sun.com To: Randy Fishel Cc: "Garrett D'Amore" , Gary Winiger , glenn.skinner@sun.com, Frank.Che@sun.com, PSARC-ext@sun.com, audio-discuss@sun.com Message-id: <47977A80.3090101@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200801231502.m0NF2FsS018499@marduk.eng.sun.com> <47975D5F.1040707@sun.com> <479761E6.70106@sun.com> <47976531.9010507@sun.com> <479771FD.2070407@sun.com> <47977293.2070105@sun.com> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.8.1.11) Gecko/20071128 SeaMonkey/1.1.7 Status: RO Content-Length: 272 Randy Fishel wrote: > Also, will the added drivers support DDI_SUSPEND and DDI_RESUME? > That will be accomplished in the following phases, as mentioned in the proposal for umbrella case 2007/238 (OSS for Solaris). Thank you Freeman > > ---- Randy > > > > > From randy.fishel@sun.com Wed Jan 23 09:42:53 2008 Received: from newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (newsunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.245]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m0NHgqOu021908 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 09:42:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m0NHgmuu016998; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 10:42:51 -0700 (MST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JV300M0FYJE6U00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 09:42:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from dm-eng-01.sfbay.sun.com ([129.145.155.198]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JV300JQ6YJE8880@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 09:42:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from grimmy.eng.sun.com (grimmy.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.108.114]) by dm-eng-01.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m0NHgmDx021503; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 09:42:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from grimmy.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grimmy.eng.sun.com (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.10) with ESMTP id m0NHgDG7021181; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 09:42:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (randyf@localhost) by grimmy.eng.sun.com (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.10/Submit) with ESMTP id m0NHgDNa021177; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 09:42:13 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 09:42:13 -0800 (PST) From: Randy Fishel Subject: Re: 2008/043 [Phase 1 of OSS for Solaris] In-reply-to: <47977A80.3090101@sun.com> X-X-Sender: randyf@grimmy To: Freeman Liu Cc: Randy Fishel , "Garrett D'Amore" , Gary Winiger , glenn.skinner@sun.com, Frank.Che@sun.com, PSARC-ext@sun.com, audio-discuss@sun.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200801231502.m0NF2FsS018499@marduk.eng.sun.com> <47975D5F.1040707@sun.com> <479761E6.70106@sun.com> <47976531.9010507@sun.com> <479771FD.2070407@sun.com> <47977293.2070105@sun.com> <47977A80.3090101@sun.com> X-Authentication-warning: grimmy.eng.sun.com: randyf owned process doing -bs Status: RO Content-Length: 755 On Thu, 24 Jan 2008, Freeman Liu wrote: > Randy Fishel wrote: > > Also, will the added drivers support DDI_SUSPEND and DDI_RESUME? > > > That will be accomplished in the following phases, as mentioned in the > proposal for umbrella case > 2007/238 (OSS for Solaris). The 20Q in that case stated that Sparc drivers will be updated, and x86 platforms that support suspend/resume will have their drivers updated so as to not have a regression. Ultra20 and Ultra40 workstations currently suspend and resume (and some Toshiba Tecra laptops will soon join the list). Is it the intent of this case to make sure these drivers will support suspend/resume as stated in the umbrella, or does it intend to change the umbrella answer? ---- Randy From John.Plocher@sun.com Wed Jan 23 09:56:29 2008 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m0NHuS7A022968 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 09:56:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m0NHuPeg001049; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 17:56:26 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JV300G05Z60CR00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 09:56:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from sca-es-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.43.133]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JV300DRAZ5YU9D0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 09:56:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from fe-sfbay-09.sun.com ([192.18.43.129]) by sca-es-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m0NHuMIG023405; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 09:56:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from conversion-daemon.fe-sfbay-09.sun.com by fe-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0JV300M01YKJMQ00@fe-sfbay-09.sun.com> (original mail from John.Plocher@Sun.COM); Wed, 23 Jan 2008 09:56:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from wp668.SFBay.Sun.COM ([129.146.226.219]) by fe-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0JV300D2BZ5WOUF0@fe-sfbay-09.sun.com>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 09:56:20 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 09:56:20 -0800 From: John Plocher Subject: Re: 2008/043 [Phase 1 of OSS for Solaris] In-reply-to: <4797504A.8020302@sun.com> Sender: John.Plocher@sun.com To: Freeman Liu Cc: James Carlson , Glenn Skinner , PSARC-ext@sun.com, Frank.Che@sun.com, audio-discuss@sun.com Message-id: <47977FC4.7030801@Sun.Com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200801230058.m0N0wdGb022426@ivrel.sfbay.sun.com> <4796AB05.4030103@Sun.COM> <18327.12395.796235.851513@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4797504A.8020302@sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Macintosh/20071031) Status: RO Content-Length: 1115 Freeman Liu wrote: > Taking these applications into consideration, we can change the name to > something else, for example, > /dev/private_dsp, and it will be found by those applications. As for > sadasupport, the change is trivial. > And sadasupport is the only consumer of this device file in this phase. > > Do you think it a reasonable approach ? If you intend to expose it in the future, but not today, the question is whether you expect to change its behavior between now and then? If not, then what is the "problem" you are protecting users and developers from by restricting their access today? If, in fact, the existence of /dev/dsp is effectively a de-facto public committed interface in the OSS meta-community today, then changing it incompatibly in phaseI seems wrong, especially if you intend on re-exposing it under the de-facto name in a later phase. (Note that the interface taxonomy levels do not equate in any way to the idea of secrecy or inaccessibility, but only to expectation setting advice about how much risk of incompatible change you take on by depending on something) -John From Freeman.Liu@sun.com Wed Jan 23 10:01:53 2008 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m0NI1qZd024340 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 10:01:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m0NI1i29003218; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 18:01:48 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JV300G0LZEZTG00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 10:01:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from sineb-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.19.6]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JV300GG6ZEXN100@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 10:01:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from fe-apac-04.sun.com (fe-apac-04.sun.com [192.18.19.175] (may be forged)) by sineb-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m0NI1iN3024913; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 18:01:44 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.mail-apac.sun.com by mail-apac.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JV300H01XXFI700@mail-apac.sun.com> (original mail from Freeman.Liu@Sun.COM); Thu, 24 Jan 2008 02:01:44 +0800 (SGT) Received: from [129.150.144.13] by mail-apac.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JV3000P1ZEV4QK0@mail-apac.sun.com>; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 02:01:44 +0800 (SGT) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 02:01:42 +0800 From: Freeman Liu Subject: Re: 2008/043 [Phase 1 of OSS for Solaris] In-reply-to: Sender: Freeman.Liu@sun.com To: Randy Fishel Cc: Darren J Moffat , James Carlson , Glenn Skinner , PSARC-ext@sun.com, Frank.Che@sun.com, audio-discuss@sun.com Message-id: <47978106.3090103@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200801230058.m0N0wdGb022426@ivrel.sfbay.sun.com> <4796AB05.4030103@Sun.COM> <18327.12395.796235.851513@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4797504A.8020302@sun.com> <479752E9.6010703@Sun.COM> <47975C66.20308@sun.com> <47976B0D.4090301@Sun.COM> <47976C16.9060101@sun.com> <47977572.20801@sun.com> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.8.1.11) Gecko/20071128 SeaMonkey/1.1.7 Status: RO Content-Length: 751 Randy Fishel wrote: >>> >>> >> The path under the /devices is not fixed. Is there some way like grep in >> kernel to filter nodes whose >> name includes hdaudio? Or we will use internal path only visable to kernel. >> >> Best regards >> Freeman >> > > Why isn't it fixed, OSS controls this path? It may be a long (and > potentially ugly) name, but it shouldn't change. Is it directly > associated with hardware that might have different driver names or > node ids? > For example, on one system, it is /devices/pci@0,0/pci1028,1db@1b:hdaudio0,pcm0 while on the other, it is /devices/pci@0,0/pci1043,81f6@1b:hdaudio0,pcm0 This driver supports different kind of audio controllers. Best regards Freeman > ---- Randy > > From Freeman.Liu@sun.com Wed Jan 23 10:19:48 2008 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m0NIJmmw025485 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 10:19:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m0NIJmYu021007; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 10:19:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JV400005090HV00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 10:19:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from sineb-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.19.7]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JV400JH108Y80B0@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 10:19:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from fe-apac-04.sun.com (fe-apac-04.sun.com [192.18.19.175] (may be forged)) by sineb-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m0NIJknY023879; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 18:19:46 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.mail-apac.sun.com by mail-apac.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JV300H01XXFI700@mail-apac.sun.com> (original mail from Freeman.Liu@Sun.COM); Thu, 24 Jan 2008 02:19:46 +0800 (SGT) Received: from [129.150.144.13] by mail-apac.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JV4000TO08W4QK0@mail-apac.sun.com>; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 02:19:45 +0800 (SGT) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 02:19:44 +0800 From: Freeman Liu Subject: Re: 2008/043 [Phase 1 of OSS for Solaris] In-reply-to: <47977FC4.7030801@Sun.Com> Sender: Freeman.Liu@sun.com To: John Plocher Cc: James Carlson , Glenn Skinner , PSARC-ext@sun.com, Frank.Che@sun.com, audio-discuss@sun.com Message-id: <47978540.7090007@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200801230058.m0N0wdGb022426@ivrel.sfbay.sun.com> <4796AB05.4030103@Sun.COM> <18327.12395.796235.851513@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4797504A.8020302@sun.com> <47977FC4.7030801@Sun.Com> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.8.1.11) Gecko/20071128 SeaMonkey/1.1.7 Status: RO Content-Length: 1517 John Plocher wrote: > Freeman Liu wrote: >> Taking these applications into consideration, we can change the name >> to something else, for example, >> /dev/private_dsp, and it will be found by those applications. As for >> sadasupport, the change is trivial. >> And sadasupport is the only consumer of this device file in this phase. >> >> Do you think it a reasonable approach ? > > > If you intend to expose it in the future, but not today, > the question is whether you expect to change its behavior > between now and then? > > If not, then what is the "problem" you are protecting > users and developers from by restricting their access > today? The basic part, like open, close, read, write, are not changed. But there are others, for example, about 100 ioctls. We will make sure all of them are ok(change them if not) before we make /dev/dsp public. > > If, in fact, the existence of /dev/dsp is effectively a > de-facto public committed interface in the OSS meta-community > today, then changing it incompatibly in phaseI seems wrong, > especially if you intend on re-exposing it under the de-facto > name in a later phase. Most of these ioctls are not used by the applications. That is the reason why they can all work happily. Best regards Freeman > > (Note that the interface taxonomy levels do not equate > in any way to the idea of secrecy or inaccessibility, but > only to expectation setting advice about how much risk of > incompatible change you take on by depending on something) > > > -John From Michael.Bender@sun.com Wed Jan 23 11:33:48 2008 Received: from newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (newsunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.245]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m0NJXmmZ014440 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 11:33:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m0NJXfVt048825; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 12:33:47 -0700 (MST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JV40030B3OBQU00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 11:33:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from sca-es-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.43.132]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JV4001T13OAPK40@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 11:33:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from fe-sfbay-10.sun.com ([192.18.43.129]) by sca-es-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m0NJXkeG006470; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 11:33:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from conversion-daemon.fe-sfbay-10.sun.com by fe-sfbay-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0JV400F013MXRV00@fe-sfbay-10.sun.com> (original mail from Michael.Bender@Sun.COM); Wed, 23 Jan 2008 11:33:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from neva.local ([98.207.245.220]) by fe-sfbay-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0JV40000R3O99Y60@fe-sfbay-10.sun.com>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 11:33:45 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 11:33:49 -0800 From: Michael Bender/MBP Subject: [Fwd: [Fwd: PSARC 2008/043 Phase 1 of OSS for Solaris]] Sender: Michael.Bender@sun.com To: psarc-ext@sun.com, Freeman.Liu@sun.com, audio-discuss@sun.com, Frank.Che@sun.com Cc: Jerry.Wall@sun.com, Padu Iyer , Robert Bartruff , Stephen.Uhler@sun.com Reply-to: Michael.Bender@sun.com Message-id: <4797969D.8030507@sun.com> Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc. MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Macintosh/20071031) Status: RO Content-Length: 6961 These are general comments on the OSS project, and not all are specific to this particular fastttrack, so I'm sorry for hijacking this thread. I would like to note that the OSS project does not seem to have taken Sun Ray audio support into account. Sun Ray and the pervious OSS team (Margot, Vicki and 4Front) had an agreement that 4Front and OSS would come up with a solution to allow OSS to work in a Sun Ray environment, however I have not seen any work progress in that area. The following fast track also doesn't seem to address any environment other than the single-user workstation model. I would like to strongly suggest that PSARC give a directive to the OSS team to consider the multi-user environment such as a Sun Ray server or other multi-user environments that require multiple distinct audio paths through the system to multiple distinct audio hardware devices. What I have seen in the OSS project so far is an effort to take code form 4Front and put it into Solaris in order to support some additional audio hardware - that's fine, since we do need to be able to support newer audio hardware - but I also see that the project proposes to integrate a userland and kernel framework that is completely unaware of a multi-user environment such as Sun Ray. I do not want to debate the merits of the OSS API as opposed to the SADA API - others have gone down that path - but what I do want to emphasize is that the OSS project, as it now stands, has a very good chance of disrupting the Sun customer base that is using popular Sun technologies such as Sun Ray and GNOME (assuming that the plans to switch GNOME to using OSS rather than SADA materialize) if apps and window systems convert to the OSS API, have no way of using SADA at runtime, and if the OSS project provides the only practical, supported audio API in Solaris going forward (SADA shim notwithstanding). I would like to request that PSARC provide some strong architectural guidance in this area so that we don't wind up with a big mess down the road. thanks, mike -------- Original Message -------- Subject: PSARC 2008/043 Phase 1 of OSS for Solaris Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 11:31:44 +0800 From: Frank Che To: PSARC-ext@sun.com CC: Freeman.Liu@sun.com, audio-discuss@sun.com I'm sponsoring this fast track for Freeman Liu and the audio team. The requested binding is minor. The timer is set to 01/29/2008. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 4.Technical Description This project is phase 1 of the umbrella project described in "Open Sound System (OSS) for Solaris" (PSARC 2007/238) There are two main goals of this phase. One is to integrate OSS high definition audio driver "hdaudio" into Solaris to support the most popular audio hardware. The other goal is to keep SADA (Solaris Audio Driver Architecture) compatibility so that there will be no regression for the current SADA applications. Theoretically, all the HD audio hardware will be supported. We will test the ones supported by SADA HD audio driver to prevent regression. Several other popular codecs will also be covered. The SADA compatibility is accomplished by an emulation layer named "sadasupport". It is a pseudo SADA audio driver which provides SADA interface to upper level. From the applications' point of view, it is not different from other SADA drivers. On the other hand, it does not operate the hardware directly. Instead, it accesses the device file provided by the lower level OSS drivers through ldi interface. The following diagram illustrates the relations between SADA framework, sadasupport, OSS framework and OSS driver where there is a HD audio hardware in the system |-------------| User level |app1,app2 ...| |------+------| |(1) | |-----+----| |--------| -------------------|/dev/audio|-----------------|/dev/dsp|------------------ |-----+----| |-+--+---| |(2) (4) | | Kernel level | +--------------------+ |(5) | | | |--------------|(3)|-----+---+-| |---+---|(6)|-------------| |SADA framework+---+sadasupport| |hdaudio+---+OSS framework| |--------------| |-----------| |---+---| |-------------| |(7) |---+----| |HD audio| |hardware| |--------| * (1),(2) Applications make audio requests through /dev/audio, which is exported by sadasupport. * (3) Sadasupport turns to SADA framework to fulfill the requests * (4),(5) Sadasupport access hdaudio driver by ldi interface when it needs service from hdaudio driver to complete the requests * (6),(7) Hdaudio turn to OSS framework to fulfill the requests and operate the hardware when needed. In phase 1, the device file "/dev/dsp" provided by OSS drivers is a project private interface and only root user is able to access it. No new interface will be published in this phase. Although HD audio driver is replaced by OSS hdaudio driver, other SADA drivers will not be replaced in phase 1. Drivers of the two different frameworks can work together. SADA framework will not be removed, either. Detailed information of SADA can be found in man pages: audio(7I), mixer(7I) and audio_support(7I). Summarily, we use OSS hdaudio driver to support HD audio hardware and use sadasupport to maintain SADA compatibility. During the discussion of the umbrella case, the issue of latency has been brought up. In this context, latency means the time gap between the time hardware/driver is changed by other applications or by external events and the time when applications sense it. And it should be achieved without high CPU usage. It can be achieved by leverage feature provided by SADA interface. Since SADA interface will be kept, latency issues is addressed naturally. Consensus was reached during the offline discussion. Here is the list of all kernel module and driver files: osscommon osscore osscore.conf sadasupport sadasupport.conf vmix vmix.conf hdaudio hdaudio.conf Some of the tunables provided by the .conf files are for changing some aspect of the OSS system. But the default value is suitable in most case and they rarely need to be changed. Other tunable are for debugging. All these files and the tunables are of project private stability in this phase. They might be changed in the following phases. 5. Reference Documents: Open Sound System (OSS) for Solaris (PSARC 2007/238). http://opensolaris.org/os/project/opensound From gdamore@sun.com Wed Jan 23 13:04:08 2008 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m0NL473C017128 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 13:04:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m0NL3ufM019896; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 21:04:04 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JV400L0T7UQYQ00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 14:04:02 -0700 (MST) Received: from sca-es-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.43.133]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JV4003PV7UPEBC0@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 14:04:02 -0700 (MST) Received: from fe-sfbay-09.sun.com ([192.18.43.129]) by sca-es-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m0NL41FJ016999; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 13:04:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from conversion-daemon.fe-sfbay-09.sun.com by fe-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0JV4002017RJFN00@fe-sfbay-09.sun.com> (original mail from gdamore@sun.com) ; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 13:04:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.251.106] ([76.174.83.55]) by fe-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0JV400M3E7UONNB0@fe-sfbay-09.sun.com>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 13:04:01 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 13:03:32 -0800 From: "Garrett D'Amore" Subject: Re: 2008/043 [Phase 1 of OSS for Solaris] In-reply-to: <47977FC4.7030801@Sun.Com> Sender: Garrett.Damore@sun.com To: John Plocher Cc: Freeman Liu , James Carlson , Glenn Skinner , PSARC-ext@sun.com, Frank.Che@sun.com, audio-discuss@sun.com Message-id: <4797ABA4.9030104@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200801230058.m0N0wdGb022426@ivrel.sfbay.sun.com> <4796AB05.4030103@Sun.COM> <18327.12395.796235.851513@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4797504A.8020302@sun.com> <47977FC4.7030801@Sun.Com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (X11/20071023) Status: RO Content-Length: 2153 John Plocher wrote: > Freeman Liu wrote: >> Taking these applications into consideration, we can change the name >> to something else, for example, >> /dev/private_dsp, and it will be found by those applications. As for >> sadasupport, the change is trivial. >> And sadasupport is the only consumer of this device file in this phase. >> >> Do you think it a reasonable approach ? > > > If you intend to expose it in the future, but not today, > the question is whether you expect to change its behavior > between now and then? > > If not, then what is the "problem" you are protecting > users and developers from by restricting their access > today? > > If, in fact, the existence of /dev/dsp is effectively a > de-facto public committed interface in the OSS meta-community > today, then changing it incompatibly in phaseI seems wrong, > especially if you intend on re-exposing it under the de-facto > name in a later phase. > > (Note that the interface taxonomy levels do not equate > in any way to the idea of secrecy or inaccessibility, but > only to expectation setting advice about how much risk of > incompatible change you take on by depending on something) Having a /dev/dsp, which we don't really intend to "support", is IMO wrong, given the existence of "de-facto" standards. Publishing it under a different name might be a workaround, but as others have pointed out, you'll find people who write scripts to locate it, and then the funky "semi-private" name "evolves" into a new de-facto standard for Solaris. Urk. Better not to expose the name at all. The internal pathname approach is, IMO, far better. But it may have the same limitations that /dev nodes have, which is that they are physical paths rather than logical paths. A possible workaround is to use a pseudo-driver to provide the "logical" path. Another possible workaround is to just have the kernel components crawl the device tree looking for the physical path. Yet another is to create a "registry" where physical drivers can register their physical path so that the kernel consumers can find them. Which one of these is best will vary. -- Garrett From carlsonj@phorcys.east.sun.com Wed Jan 23 13:15:17 2008 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m0NLFHwf017732 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 13:15:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m0NLFEvN005664; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 13:15:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JV4008098DC5900@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 13:15:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com ([129.148.174.143]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JV4007PY8DAFV60@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 13:15:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.2+Sun/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m0NLFA3E008559; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 16:15:10 -0500 (EST) Received: (from carlsonj@localhost) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.2+Sun/8.14.2/Submit) id m0NLFAqX008556; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 16:15:10 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 16:15:09 -0500 From: James Carlson Subject: Re: 2008/043 [Phase 1 of OSS for Solaris] In-reply-to: <4797ABA4.9030104@sun.com> To: "Garrett D'Amore" Cc: John Plocher , Freeman Liu , Glenn Skinner , PSARC-ext@sun.com, Frank.Che@sun.com, audio-discuss@sun.com Message-id: <18327.44637.789619.5815@gargle.gargle.HOWL> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: VM 7.01 under Emacs 21.3.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200801230058.m0N0wdGb022426@ivrel.sfbay.sun.com> <4796AB05.4030103@Sun.COM> <18327.12395.796235.851513@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4797504A.8020302@sun.com> <47977FC4.7030801@Sun.Com> <4797ABA4.9030104@sun.com> Status: RO Content-Length: 2044 Garrett D'Amore writes: > Publishing it under a different name might be a workaround, but as > others have pointed out, you'll find people who write scripts to locate > it, and then the funky "semi-private" name "evolves" into a new de-facto > standard for Solaris. Urk. Better not to expose the name at all. Those same squirrelly people could presumably find it via /devices just as readily as finding it buried under a strange name in /dev. I don't buy that argument, because I see two separate issues here: - People who stumble into using it through no fault of their own, and end up hurt by incompatible changes we may make before stabilizing. - People who deliberately go out of their way to find the undocumented stuff we've got. I hope that we'll protect the former. I have little sympathy for the latter. If that happens, I hope we'll break them, because that's just beyond the pale. We can't protect against people who are hacking. > The internal pathname approach is, IMO, far better. But it may have the > same limitations that /dev nodes have, which is that they are physical > paths rather than logical paths. A possible workaround is to use a > pseudo-driver to provide the "logical" path. Another possible > workaround is to just have the kernel components crawl the device tree > looking for the physical path. Yet another is to create a "registry" > where physical drivers can register their physical path so that the > kernel consumers can find them. Which one of these is best will vary. A much simpler mechanism is to use the existing device linkage tools to create a /dev node, and just provide it an "unexpected" name for now. You'd then rename into the right location when it's made public. If you want to use /dev/freeman temporarily, that'd be fine. -- James Carlson, Solaris Networking Sun Microsystems / 35 Network Drive 71.232W Vox +1 781 442 2084 MS UBUR02-212 / Burlington MA 01803-2757 42.496N Fax +1 781 442 1677 From gdamore@sun.com Wed Jan 23 13:25:08 2008 Received: from sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m0NLP7jn017801 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 13:25:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m0NLP1Yw026167; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 05:25:05 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JV400D0L8TQBU00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 13:25:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from sca-es-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.43.133]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JV40053O8TPFG40@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 13:25:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from fe-sfbay-09.sun.com ([192.18.43.129]) by sca-es-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m0NLP1QI019262; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 13:25:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from conversion-daemon.fe-sfbay-09.sun.com by fe-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0JV4003018O3L800@fe-sfbay-09.sun.com> (original mail from gdamore@sun.com) ; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 13:25:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.251.106] ([76.174.83.55]) by fe-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0JV400KAD8TF5O40@fe-sfbay-09.sun.com>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 13:24:52 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 13:24:23 -0800 From: "Garrett D'Amore" Subject: Re: 2008/043 [Phase 1 of OSS for Solaris] In-reply-to: <18327.44637.789619.5815@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Sender: Garrett.Damore@sun.com To: James Carlson Cc: John Plocher , Freeman Liu , Glenn Skinner , PSARC-ext@sun.com, Frank.Che@sun.com, audio-discuss@sun.com Message-id: <4797B087.8060807@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200801230058.m0N0wdGb022426@ivrel.sfbay.sun.com> <4796AB05.4030103@Sun.COM> <18327.12395.796235.851513@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4797504A.8020302@sun.com> <47977FC4.7030801@Sun.Com> <4797ABA4.9030104@sun.com> <18327.44637.789619.5815@gargle.gargle.HOWL> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (X11/20071023) Status: RO Content-Length: 3457 James Carlson wrote: > Garrett D'Amore writes: > >> Publishing it under a different name might be a workaround, but as >> others have pointed out, you'll find people who write scripts to locate >> it, and then the funky "semi-private" name "evolves" into a new de-facto >> standard for Solaris. Urk. Better not to expose the name at all. >> > > Those same squirrelly people could presumably find it via /devices > just as readily as finding it buried under a strange name in /dev. > > I don't buy that argument, because I see two separate issues here: > > - People who stumble into using it through no fault of their own, > and end up hurt by incompatible changes we may make before > stabilizing. > > - People who deliberately go out of their way to find the > undocumented stuff we've got. > You're making an assumption that these two sets are distinct. I'm not sure they are. I think the latter can lead to the former. Put another way, I'm afraid some FOSS developers will find out where we squirreled it away, and hard code it into configure scripts, or even into binaries. (Much of the FOSS software we wind up dealing with comes from places where developers have never even heard of ABI compatibility, much less care about it.) So having a name readily available (too easily, in other words) may keep the good citizens (the Oracles of the world) good, but it won't shield them from the actions of the citizens who don't know about or don't care about our stability rules. > I hope that we'll protect the former. I have little sympathy for the > latter. If that happens, I hope we'll break them, because that's just > beyond the pale. We can't protect against people who are hacking. > > True, but when we can avoid exposing details in a way that might be confused with "supported", we should. Its sort of like putting out headers with driver private ioctls. Sure, its been done, and often harmless. But for the trivial cost of effort it would take to keep those from shipping in the binary product, I think the problem-avoidance justify the cost. >> The internal pathname approach is, IMO, far better. But it may have the >> same limitations that /dev nodes have, which is that they are physical >> paths rather than logical paths. A possible workaround is to use a >> pseudo-driver to provide the "logical" path. Another possible >> workaround is to just have the kernel components crawl the device tree >> looking for the physical path. Yet another is to create a "registry" >> where physical drivers can register their physical path so that the >> kernel consumers can find them. Which one of these is best will vary. >> > > A much simpler mechanism is to use the existing device linkage tools > to create a /dev node, and just provide it an "unexpected" name for > now. You'd then rename into the right location when it's made public. > > If you want to use /dev/freeman temporarily, that'd be fine. > I will point out that while this is simpler in the short run, in the long run it may create other difficulties that make the cost comparison not so obvious. For example, bfu and upgrade will need to be modified to rename the node on upgrade. If the node is kept in the kernel, then there are no upgrade implications. (And ultimately, each of those approaches I mentioned could probably be implemented in less than 50 lines of code.) -- Garrett From carlsonj@phorcys.east.sun.com Wed Jan 23 13:38:32 2008 Received: from newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (newsunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.245]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m0NLcWHU018349 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 13:38:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m0NLcPF0015744; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 14:38:29 -0700 (MST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JV40090P9G30Q00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 13:38:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com ([129.148.174.143]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JV40088C9G2WP00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 13:38:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.2+Sun/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m0NLcQht008683; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 16:38:26 -0500 (EST) Received: (from carlsonj@localhost) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.2+Sun/8.14.2/Submit) id m0NLcP1e008680; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 16:38:25 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 16:38:25 -0500 From: James Carlson Subject: Re: 2008/043 [Phase 1 of OSS for Solaris] In-reply-to: <4797B087.8060807@sun.com> To: "Garrett D'Amore" Cc: John Plocher , Freeman Liu , Glenn Skinner , PSARC-ext@sun.com, Frank.Che@sun.com, audio-discuss@sun.com Message-id: <18327.46033.659246.293010@gargle.gargle.HOWL> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: VM 7.01 under Emacs 21.3.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200801230058.m0N0wdGb022426@ivrel.sfbay.sun.com> <4796AB05.4030103@Sun.COM> <18327.12395.796235.851513@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4797504A.8020302@sun.com> <47977FC4.7030801@Sun.Com> <4797ABA4.9030104@sun.com> <18327.44637.789619.5815@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4797B087.8060807@sun.com> Status: RO Content-Length: 3117 Garrett D'Amore writes: > > - People who stumble into using it through no fault of their own, > > and end up hurt by incompatible changes we may make before > > stabilizing. > > > > - People who deliberately go out of their way to find the > > undocumented stuff we've got. > > > > You're making an assumption that these two sets are distinct. I'm not > sure they are. I think the latter can lead to the former. > > Put another way, I'm afraid some FOSS developers will find out where we > squirreled it away, and hard code it into configure scripts, or even > into binaries. (Much of the FOSS software we wind up dealing with comes > from places where developers have never even heard of ABI compatibility, > much less care about it.) We can't _prevent_ people from finding things they're not supposed to find. We don't disable 'nm', we don't hobble dtrace, and you can find+grep over /usr/include to find all sorts of nasties. The original issue I raised was about making sure that we didn't use a well-known common name for something that wasn't ready to be used that way. The suggestion that someone might find our renamed device node and then hack his software to follow suit is perhaps a risk, but it's in the class of risks that I'm arguing we should not try to avoid: developers do all sorts of stupid things, from hijacking devops vectors to camping out on undocumented syscalls. > So having a name readily available (too easily, in other words) may keep > the good citizens (the Oracles of the world) good, but it won't shield > them from the actions of the citizens who don't know about or don't care > about our stability rules. Bad citizens can be arbitrarily bad. I don't want to drive the project team into doing something absurd to guard against fools, because fools are just too crafty. We've probably got better things to do. > I will point out that while this is simpler in the short run, in the > long run it may create other difficulties that make the cost comparison > not so obvious. For example, bfu and upgrade will need to be modified > to rename the node on upgrade. Bfu is just an internal tool. We deal with changes there all the time. Upgrade would be automatic, assuming the packaging is done correctly. > If the node is kept in the kernel, then > there are no upgrade implications. (And ultimately, each of those > approaches I mentioned could probably be implemented in less than 50 > lines of code.) Feel free to consult with the project team if you've got the time to do that and a good way to make this work. I've already specified the minimum conditions that I think hold for this to be a private interface: users can't stumble into it purely by accident as a consequence of using a famous path name. Any other solutions (including declaring /dev/dsp to be Committed now) are perfectly fine by me. -- James Carlson, Solaris Networking Sun Microsystems / 35 Network Drive 71.232W Vox +1 781 442 2084 MS UBUR02-212 / Burlington MA 01803-2757 42.496N Fax +1 781 442 1677 From John.Plocher@sun.com Wed Jan 23 13:40:00 2008 Received: from sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m0NLdxUQ018363 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 13:39:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m0NLdjVS000798; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 05:39:58 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JV4001059IJOW00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 14:39:55 -0700 (MST) Received: from sca-es-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.43.132]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JV4003QF9IHEFE0@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 14:39:54 -0700 (MST) Received: from fe-sfbay-09.sun.com ([192.18.43.129]) by sca-es-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m0NLdrMG021947; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 13:39:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from conversion-daemon.fe-sfbay-09.sun.com by fe-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0JV4000019DP8L00@fe-sfbay-09.sun.com> (original mail from John.Plocher@Sun.COM); Wed, 23 Jan 2008 13:39:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from wp668.SFBay.Sun.COM ([129.146.226.219]) by fe-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0JV400KRU9IH5OB0@fe-sfbay-09.sun.com>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 13:39:53 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 13:39:54 -0800 From: John Plocher Subject: Re: 2008/043 [Phase 1 of OSS for Solaris] In-reply-to: <4797ABA4.9030104@sun.com> Sender: John.Plocher@sun.com To: "Garrett D'Amore" Cc: Freeman Liu , PSARC-ext@sun.com, Frank.Che@sun.com, audio-discuss@sun.com Message-id: <4797B42A.9060500@Sun.Com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200801230058.m0N0wdGb022426@ivrel.sfbay.sun.com> <4796AB05.4030103@Sun.COM> <18327.12395.796235.851513@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4797504A.8020302@sun.com> <47977FC4.7030801@Sun.Com> <4797ABA4.9030104@sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Macintosh/20071031) Status: RO Content-Length: 596 Garrett D'Amore wrote: > Having a /dev/dsp, which we don't really intend to "support", is IMO > wrong, given the existence of "de-facto" standards. My understanding is that we do intent to "support" it, but not in phase 1. I agree that the "internal, not in /dev" mechanism sounds like the right first step; my question was really about the predicted "harm" that would be caused by exposing it now. It sounds like (from Freeman's response) that there is no real harm, since the phaseI driver already supports the things that the existing 3rd party client applications depend upon. -John From Dev.Mazumdar@sun.com Wed Jan 23 13:44:26 2008 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m0NLiQX7018495 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 13:44:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m0NLiQJU011966; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 13:44:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JV4009059Q1CQ00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 13:44:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from sca-es-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.43.132]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JV4008KG9Q0WZ00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 13:44:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from fe-sfbay-10.sun.com ([192.18.43.129]) by sca-es-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m0NLiOjg022545; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 13:44:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from conversion-daemon.fe-sfbay-10.sun.com by fe-sfbay-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0JV4001019OHCQ00@fe-sfbay-10.sun.com> (original mail from Dev.Mazumdar@Sun.COM); Wed, 23 Jan 2008 13:44:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.1.2.21] ([76.90.49.38]) by fe-sfbay-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0JV400LL09PYMK10@fe-sfbay-10.sun.com>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 13:44:23 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 13:44:19 -0800 From: Dev Mazumdar Subject: Re: [Fwd: [Fwd: PSARC 2008/043 Phase 1 of OSS for Solaris]] In-reply-to: <4797969D.8030507@sun.com> Sender: Dev.Mazumdar@sun.com To: Michael.Bender@sun.com Cc: PSARC-ext@sun.com, Freeman.Liu@sun.com, audio-discuss@sun.com, Frank.Che@sun.com, Jerry.Wall@sun.com, Padu Iyer , Robert Bartruff , Stephen.Uhler@sun.com Message-id: <4797B533.50707@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <4797969D.8030507@sun.com> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.8.1.11) Gecko/20071128 SeaMonkey/1.1.7 Status: RO Content-Length: 4275 Michael Bender/MBP wrote: > These are general comments on the OSS project, and not all are > specific to this particular fastttrack, so I'm sorry for hijacking > this thread. > > I would like to note that the OSS project does not seem to have > taken Sun Ray audio support into account. Sun Ray and the pervious > OSS team (Margot, Vicki and 4Front) had an agreement that 4Front > and OSS would come up with a solution to allow OSS to work in a > Sun Ray environment, however I have not seen any work progress in > that area. The following fast track also doesn't seem to address > any environment other than the single-user workstation model. > > I would like to strongly suggest that PSARC give a directive to > the OSS team to consider the multi-user environment such as a > Sun Ray server or other multi-user environments that require > multiple distinct audio paths through the system to multiple > distinct audio hardware devices. > > What I have seen in the OSS project so far is an effort to take > code form 4Front and put it into Solaris in order to support > some additional audio hardware - that's fine, since we do need > to be able to support newer audio hardware - but I also see that > the project proposes to integrate a userland and kernel framework > that is completely unaware of a multi-user environment such as > Sun Ray. I do not want to debate the merits of the OSS API as > opposed to the SADA API - others have gone down that path - but > what I do want to emphasize is that the OSS project, as it now > stands, has a very good chance of disrupting the Sun customer > base that is using popular Sun technologies such as Sun Ray > and GNOME (assuming that the plans to switch GNOME to using > OSS rather than SADA materialize) if apps and window systems > convert to the OSS API, have no way of using SADA at runtime, > and if the OSS project provides the only practical, supported > audio API in Solaris going forward (SADA shim notwithstanding). > > I would like to request that PSARC provide some strong > architectural guidance in this area so that we don't wind > up with a big mess down the road. > > thanks, > mike > Hi Mike, The rough idea for Sun Ray is a special OSS version (OTOH it may be possible to integrate the required functionality to the stock version). This version consists of the OSS framework, vmix (streams mixing engine for record/playback) and audioloop (which is a pseudo "hardware driver") Please see the following link for the source to audioloop.c http://manuals.opensound.com/sources/audioloop.c.html There is a sound server process for each client. The server process opens the server side device of audioloop. The audioloop driver creates a new device instance (client/server device pair) and binds it to the UID of the user (I assume they use UID to identify the sessions). The /dev/dsp device is a symbolic link to the client side of the audioloop driver. When an application opens /dev/dsp it gets connected to the audioloop instance that matches the UID. An vmix engine is created dynamically for the client device. If more applications open /dev/dsp a new vmix engine gets created. In this way applications can always open /dev/dsp and they will get redirected to the right server process which is connected to the Sun Ray client. There is no need to modify the applications to use some shell variable to find the right device to use. Real audio devices in the system are hidden from apps other than processes running as root. Same way the real /dev/audio is hidden in current design. SADA emulation can probably be handled in the way we do it now. The main problem is to make OSS to scale to up to 100k clients without using all available memory. It will also take some time to get OSS to use UID or some other client identification to redirect access to the right server. The parts to solving Sun Ray support already exist - assembly work is needed. Best regards, Dev Mazumdar ----------------------------------------------------------- 4Front Technologies 4035 Lafayette Place, Unit F, Culver City, CA 90232, USA. Tel: (310) 202 8530 URL: www.opensound.com Fax: (310) 202 0496 Email: info@opensound.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From Nicolas.Williams@sun.com Wed Jan 23 13:59:37 2008 Received: from sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m0NLxaLT019437 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 13:59:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m0NLxSJJ008182; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 05:59:33 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JV400303AF77B00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 14:59:31 -0700 (MST) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM ([129.153.128.104]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JV4002INAF7RU20@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 14:59:31 -0700 (MST) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m0NLxVMr010780; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 15:59:31 -0600 (CST) Received: (from nw141292@localhost) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1/Submit) id m0NLxVdX010779; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 15:59:31 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 15:59:30 -0600 From: Nicolas Williams Subject: Re: 2008/043 [Phase 1 of OSS for Solaris] In-reply-to: <4797B42A.9060500@Sun.Com> To: John Plocher Cc: "Garrett D'Amore" , PSARC-ext@sun.com, Freeman Liu , Frank.Che@sun.com, audio-discuss@sun.com Mail-followup-to: John Plocher , Garrett D'Amore , PSARC-ext@sun.com, Freeman Liu , Frank.Che@sun.com, audio-discuss@sun.com Message-id: <20080123215930.GG6591@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200801230058.m0N0wdGb022426@ivrel.sfbay.sun.com> <4796AB05.4030103@Sun.COM> <18327.12395.796235.851513@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4797504A.8020302@sun.com> <47977FC4.7030801@Sun.Com> <4797ABA4.9030104@sun.com> <4797B42A.9060500@Sun.Com> X-Authentication-warning: binky.Central.Sun.COM: nw141292 set sender to Nicolas.Williams@sun.com using -f User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.7i Status: RO Content-Length: 643 On Wed, Jan 23, 2008 at 01:39:54PM -0800, John Plocher wrote: > My understanding is that we do intent to "support" it, but not in phase 1. > I agree that the "internal, not in /dev" mechanism sounds like the right > first step; my question was really about the predicted "harm" that would > be caused by exposing it now. It sounds like (from Freeman's response) > that there is no real harm, since the phaseI driver already supports > the things that the existing 3rd party client applications depend upon. Provided that adding Sun Ray support does not require removing /dev/dsp... (But, surely /dev/dsp can be virtualized by seat, right?) From margot.miller@sun.com Wed Jan 23 14:01:53 2008 Received: from newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (newsunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.245]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m0NM1rcb019571 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 14:01:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m0NM1oa4021981; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 15:01:51 -0700 (MST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JV400G09AIZW300@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 14:01:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com ([129.146.17.63]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JV4005Z0AIZFG50@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 14:01:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from [129.146.226.220] (donald3.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.226.220]) by jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.2+Sun/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m0NM1kat291114; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 14:01:46 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 13:57:41 -0800 From: Margot Miller Subject: Re: PSARC 2008/043 Phase 1 of OSS for Solaris In-reply-to: <47941220.6050702@sun.com> To: Frank Che Cc: PSARC-ext@sun.com, Freeman.Liu@sun.com, audio-discuss@sun.com Message-id: <4797B855.4090502@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <47941220.6050702@sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (X11/20071009) Status: RO Content-Length: 5157 It looks like none of the OSS CLI will be part of this phase. How will volume control be done? Does the Solaris audio CLI and Gnome volume control work with OSS hdaudio driver? Margot Frank Che wrote: > I'm sponsoring this fast track for Freeman Liu and the audio team. > The requested binding is minor. The timer is set to 01/29/2008. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > 4.Technical Description > > This project is phase 1 of the umbrella project described in > "Open Sound System (OSS) for Solaris" (PSARC 2007/238) > There are two main goals of this phase. One is to integrate OSS high > definition audio driver "hdaudio" into Solaris to support the most > popular audio hardware. The other goal is to keep SADA > (Solaris Audio Driver Architecture) compatibility so that there will > be no regression for the current SADA applications. > > Theoretically, all the HD audio hardware will be supported. We will test > the ones supported by SADA HD audio driver to prevent regression. > Several > other popular codecs will also be covered. > > The SADA compatibility is accomplished by an emulation layer named > "sadasupport". It is a pseudo SADA audio driver which provides SADA > interface to upper level. From the applications' point of view, it > is not different from other SADA drivers. On the other hand, it does > not operate the hardware directly. Instead, it accesses the device file > provided by the lower level OSS drivers through ldi interface. The > following diagram illustrates the relations between SADA framework, > sadasupport, OSS framework and OSS driver where there is a HD audio > hardware in the system > > |-------------| > User level |app1,app2 ...| > |------+------| > |(1) > | > |-----+----| |--------| > -------------------|/dev/audio|-----------------|/dev/dsp|------------------ > > |-----+----| |-+--+---| > |(2) (4) | | > Kernel level | +--------------------+ |(5) > | | | > |--------------|(3)|-----+---+-| > |---+---|(6)|-------------| > |SADA framework+---+sadasupport| |hdaudio+---+OSS > framework| > |--------------| |-----------| |---+---| > |-------------| > |(7) > |---+----| > |HD audio| > |hardware| > |--------| > > * (1),(2) Applications make audio requests through /dev/audio, > which is exported by sadasupport. > * (3) Sadasupport turns to SADA framework to fulfill the requests > * (4),(5) Sadasupport access hdaudio driver by ldi interface when > it needs service from hdaudio driver to complete the requests > * (6),(7) Hdaudio turn to OSS framework to fulfill the requests > and operate the hardware when needed. > > In phase 1, the device file "/dev/dsp" provided by OSS drivers is a > project private interface and only root user is able to access it. > No new interface will be published in this phase. Although HD audio > driver is replaced by OSS hdaudio driver, other SADA drivers will not > be replaced in phase 1. Drivers of the two different frameworks can work > together. SADA framework will not be removed, either. Detailed > information > of SADA can be found in man pages: audio(7I), mixer(7I) and > audio_support(7I). > > Summarily, we use OSS hdaudio driver to support HD audio hardware > and use sadasupport to maintain SADA compatibility. > > During the discussion of the umbrella case, the issue of latency has > been brought up. In this context, latency means the time gap between > the time hardware/driver is changed by other applications or by external > events and the time when applications sense it. And it should be > achieved without high CPU usage. It can be achieved by leverage > feature provided by SADA interface. Since SADA interface will be kept, > latency issues is addressed naturally. Consensus was reached during > the offline discussion. > > Here is the list of all kernel module and driver files: > osscommon > osscore > osscore.conf > sadasupport > sadasupport.conf > vmix > vmix.conf > hdaudio > hdaudio.conf > > Some of the tunables provided by the .conf files are for changing > some aspect of the OSS system. But the default value is suitable > in most case and they rarely need to be changed. Other tunable are > for debugging. > > All these files and the tunables are of project private stability in > this > phase. They might be changed in the following phases. > > 5. Reference Documents: > > Open Sound System (OSS) for Solaris (PSARC 2007/238). > http://opensolaris.org/os/project/opensound > > > > From Michael.Bender@sun.com Wed Jan 23 14:06:40 2008 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m0NM6dsa019849 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 14:06:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m0NM6KoS015553; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 22:06:39 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JV400A0HAR1AM00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 14:06:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from sca-es-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.43.133]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JV4008W7AQZX110@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 14:06:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from fe-sfbay-10.sun.com ([192.18.43.129]) by sca-es-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m0NM6Z7f024119; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 14:06:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from conversion-daemon.fe-sfbay-10.sun.com by fe-sfbay-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0JV400301AGNN600@fe-sfbay-10.sun.com> (original mail from Michael.Bender@Sun.COM); Wed, 23 Jan 2008 14:06:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from neva.local ([98.207.245.220]) by fe-sfbay-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0JV400LTGAQYMKD0@fe-sfbay-10.sun.com>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 14:06:35 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 14:06:39 -0800 From: Michael Bender/MBP Subject: Re: [Fwd: [Fwd: PSARC 2008/043 Phase 1 of OSS for Solaris]] In-reply-to: <4797B533.50707@sun.com> Sender: Michael.Bender@sun.com To: Dev Mazumdar Cc: PSARC-ext@sun.com, Freeman.Liu@sun.com, audio-discuss@sun.com, Frank.Che@sun.com, Jerry.Wall@sun.com, Padu Iyer , Robert Bartruff , Stephen.Uhler@sun.com Reply-to: Michael.Bender@sun.com Message-id: <4797BA6F.4050007@sun.com> Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc. MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <4797969D.8030507@sun.com> <4797B533.50707@sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Macintosh/20071031) Status: RO Content-Length: 5411 Dev Mazumdar wrote: > The parts to solving Sun Ray support already exist - assembly > work is needed. I'm not sure what that means. What I am sure about is that I see a number of OSS cases coming before PSARC to request review so that they can integrate their components into Solaris. Nothing wrong with that, however I don't see any of the activity on how to get Sun Ray support in OSS (or using the OSS API) that was promised when we met last year. I am naturally worried that the Sun Ray support will fall by the wayside and we will wind up with two incompatible audio APIs/stacks/hardware support in Solaris which will only server to confuse and frustrate customers. My request to PSARC is to make sure that the OSS team has as a high priority a plan in place to provide Sun Ray support using the OSS APIs. Your comment above doesn't make me feel warm and fuzzy that there is such a plan nor that there is actual work going on to make this really work. mike ---- > Michael Bender/MBP wrote: >> These are general comments on the OSS project, and not all are >> specific to this particular fastttrack, so I'm sorry for hijacking >> this thread. >> >> I would like to note that the OSS project does not seem to have >> taken Sun Ray audio support into account. Sun Ray and the pervious >> OSS team (Margot, Vicki and 4Front) had an agreement that 4Front >> and OSS would come up with a solution to allow OSS to work in a >> Sun Ray environment, however I have not seen any work progress in >> that area. The following fast track also doesn't seem to address >> any environment other than the single-user workstation model. >> >> I would like to strongly suggest that PSARC give a directive to >> the OSS team to consider the multi-user environment such as a >> Sun Ray server or other multi-user environments that require >> multiple distinct audio paths through the system to multiple >> distinct audio hardware devices. >> >> What I have seen in the OSS project so far is an effort to take >> code form 4Front and put it into Solaris in order to support >> some additional audio hardware - that's fine, since we do need >> to be able to support newer audio hardware - but I also see that >> the project proposes to integrate a userland and kernel framework >> that is completely unaware of a multi-user environment such as >> Sun Ray. I do not want to debate the merits of the OSS API as >> opposed to the SADA API - others have gone down that path - but >> what I do want to emphasize is that the OSS project, as it now >> stands, has a very good chance of disrupting the Sun customer >> base that is using popular Sun technologies such as Sun Ray >> and GNOME (assuming that the plans to switch GNOME to using >> OSS rather than SADA materialize) if apps and window systems >> convert to the OSS API, have no way of using SADA at runtime, >> and if the OSS project provides the only practical, supported >> audio API in Solaris going forward (SADA shim notwithstanding). >> >> I would like to request that PSARC provide some strong >> architectural guidance in this area so that we don't wind >> up with a big mess down the road. >> >> thanks, >> mike >> > > > Hi Mike, > > The rough idea for Sun Ray is a special OSS version (OTOH it may be > possible to integrate the required functionality to the stock version). > This version consists of the OSS framework, vmix (streams mixing engine > for record/playback) and audioloop (which is a pseudo "hardware driver") > > Please see the following link for the source to audioloop.c > http://manuals.opensound.com/sources/audioloop.c.html > > > There is a sound server process for each client. The server process > opens the server side device of audioloop. The audioloop driver creates > a new device instance (client/server device pair) and binds it to the > UID of the user (I assume they use UID to identify the sessions). > > The /dev/dsp device is a symbolic link to the client side of the > audioloop driver. When an application opens /dev/dsp it gets connected > to the audioloop instance that matches the UID. An vmix engine is > created dynamically for the client device. If more applications open > /dev/dsp a new vmix engine gets created. In this way applications can > always open /dev/dsp and they will get redirected to the right server > process which is connected to the Sun Ray client. There is no need to > modify the applications to use some shell variable to find the right > device to use. > > Real audio devices in the system are hidden from apps other than > processes running as root. Same way the real /dev/audio is hidden in > current design. > > SADA emulation can probably be handled in the way we do it now. > > The main problem is to make OSS to scale to up to 100k clients without > using all available memory. It will also take some time to get OSS to > use UID or some other client identification to redirect access to the > right server. > > The parts to solving Sun Ray support already exist - assembly work is > needed. > > > > > > Best regards, > > Dev Mazumdar > ----------------------------------------------------------- > 4Front Technologies > 4035 Lafayette Place, Unit F, Culver City, CA 90232, USA. > Tel: (310) 202 8530 URL: www.opensound.com > Fax: (310) 202 0496 Email: info@opensound.com > ----------------------------------------------------------- From Nicolas.Williams@sun.com Wed Jan 23 14:20:29 2008 Received: from sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m0NMKSDQ020373 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 14:20:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m0NMKMnr016077; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 06:20:25 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JV400I0FBE0P300@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 14:20:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM ([129.153.128.104]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JV4005M9BDXFJ60@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 14:20:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m0NMKHBZ010801; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 16:20:17 -0600 (CST) Received: (from nw141292@localhost) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1/Submit) id m0NMKHSf010800; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 16:20:17 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 16:20:17 -0600 From: Nicolas Williams Subject: Re: [Fwd: [Fwd: PSARC 2008/043 Phase 1 of OSS for Solaris]] In-reply-to: <4797B533.50707@sun.com> To: Dev Mazumdar Cc: Michael.Bender@sun.com, Robert Bartruff , audio-discuss@sun.com, Jerry.Wall@sun.com, PSARC-ext@sun.com, Freeman.Liu@sun.com, Padu Iyer , Frank.Che@sun.com, Stephen.Uhler@sun.com Mail-followup-to: Dev Mazumdar , Michael.Bender@sun.com, Robert Bartruff , audio-discuss@sun.com, Jerry.Wall@sun.com, PSARC-ext@sun.com, Freeman.Liu@sun.com, Padu Iyer , Frank.Che@sun.com, Stephen.Uhler@sun.com Message-id: <20080123222017.GI6591@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <4797969D.8030507@sun.com> <4797B533.50707@sun.com> X-Authentication-warning: binky.Central.Sun.COM: nw141292 set sender to Nicolas.Williams@sun.com using -f User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.7i Status: RO Content-Length: 809 On Wed, Jan 23, 2008 at 01:44:19PM -0800, Dev Mazumdar wrote: > There is a sound server process for each client. The server process > opens the server side device of audioloop. The audioloop driver creates > a new device instance (client/server device pair) and binds it to the > UID of the user (I assume they use UID to identify the sessions). So if I have multiple sessions on the same server then one session will get all the sound for all of them while the others get no sound? > The main problem is to make OSS to scale to up to 100k clients without > using all available memory. It will also take some time to get OSS to > use UID or some other client identification to redirect access to the > right server. "some other client identification" seems like a better answer than "UID." Nico -- From Michael.Bender@sun.com Wed Jan 23 14:32:03 2008 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m0NMW26T021158 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 14:32:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m0NMW0GX027330; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 22:32:01 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JV400J11BXBQ900@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 14:31:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from sca-es-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.43.133]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JV4005CHBXAFE60@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 14:31:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from fe-sfbay-09.sun.com ([192.18.43.129]) by sca-es-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m0NMVwLK026822; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 14:31:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from conversion-daemon.fe-sfbay-09.sun.com by fe-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0JV400001BP1E500@fe-sfbay-09.sun.com> (original mail from Michael.Bender@Sun.COM); Wed, 23 Jan 2008 14:31:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from neva.local ([98.207.245.220]) by fe-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0JV400GXQBX4OZ40@fe-sfbay-09.sun.com>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 14:31:52 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 14:31:56 -0800 From: Michael Bender/MBP Subject: Re: [Fwd: [Fwd: PSARC 2008/043 Phase 1 of OSS for Solaris]] In-reply-to: <20080123222017.GI6591@Sun.COM> Sender: Michael.Bender@sun.com To: Dev Mazumdar , Michael.Bender@sun.com, Robert Bartruff , audio-discuss@sun.com, Jerry.Wall@sun.com, PSARC-ext@sun.com, Freeman.Liu@sun.com, Padu Iyer , Frank.Che@sun.com, Stephen.Uhler@sun.com Reply-to: Michael.Bender@sun.com Message-id: <4797C05C.7050105@sun.com> Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc. MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <4797969D.8030507@sun.com> <4797B533.50707@sun.com> <20080123222017.GI6591@Sun.COM> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Macintosh/20071031) Status: RO Content-Length: 1168 Nicolas Williams wrote: > On Wed, Jan 23, 2008 at 01:44:19PM -0800, Dev Mazumdar wrote: >> There is a sound server process for each client. The server process >> opens the server side device of audioloop. The audioloop driver creates >> a new device instance (client/server device pair) and binds it to the >> UID of the user (I assume they use UID to identify the sessions). > > So if I have multiple sessions on the same server then one session will > get all the sound for all of them while the others get no sound? We use a session ID that is unique to the Sun Ray server that the session is running on. That session ID is not related to the UID of the user that has logged in to the Sun Ray server via a DTU, although once a user has logged in their UID and session ID are bound for the duration of the user's session. >> The main problem is to make OSS to scale to up to 100k clients without >> using all available memory. It will also take some time to get OSS to >> use UID or some other client identification to redirect access to the >> right server. > > "some other client identification" seems like a better answer than "UID." Yes, I agree. mike From casper@holland.sun.com Wed Jan 23 14:56:41 2008 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m0NMuePr022369 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 14:56:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m0NMucIb007914; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 22:56:39 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JV400E03D2ERC00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 14:56:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from dm-holland-02.uk.sun.com ([129.156.101.225]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JV4008FJD2CWP40@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 14:56:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from holland (room101.Holland.Sun.COM [10.16.117.40]) by dm-holland-02.uk.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m0NMuTX0017610; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 22:56:29 +0000 (GMT) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 23:56:29 +0100 From: Casper.Dik@sun.com Subject: Re: [Fwd: [Fwd: PSARC 2008/043 Phase 1 of OSS for Solaris]] In-reply-to: <20080123222017.GI6591@Sun.COM> Sender: casper@holland.sun.com To: Nicolas Williams Cc: Dev Mazumdar , Michael.Bender@sun.com, Robert Bartruff , audio-discuss@sun.com, Jerry.Wall@sun.com, PSARC-ext@sun.com, Freeman.Liu@sun.com, Padu Iyer , Frank.Che@sun.com, Stephen.Uhler@sun.com Message-id: <200801232256.m0NMuTX0017610@dm-holland-02.uk.sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <4797969D.8030507@sun.com> <4797B533.50707@sun.com> <20080123222017.GI6591@Sun.COM> Status: RO Content-Length: 1523 >On Wed, Jan 23, 2008 at 01:44:19PM -0800, Dev Mazumdar wrote: >> There is a sound server process for each client. The server process >> opens the server side device of audioloop. The audioloop driver creates >> a new device instance (client/server device pair) and binds it to the >> UID of the user (I assume they use UID to identify the sessions). > >So if I have multiple sessions on the same server then one session will >get all the sound for all of them while the others get no sound? > >> The main problem is to make OSS to scale to up to 100k clients without >> using all available memory. It will also take some time to get OSS to >> use UID or some other client identification to redirect access to the >> right server. > >"some other client identification" seems like a better answer than "UID." Just to be sure: OSS will be either "optional" or used only for the devices it actually support and we can continue to use SunRays until it is fixed (I'm unsure why we'd even need to use OSS for SunRays) The reason Sun Ray uses $AUDIODEV and device entries in /tmp is a simple down-to-earth one: the kernel has no way of knowing what session you're in and so the Sun Ray service must offer the appropriate device. The kernel does not have the information where to send to audio when a "virtual" device is opened in the case of Sun Ray. Therefor the decision cannot be made where to send to audio inside the kernel; the decision must be made outside OR a new mechanism will need to be defined. Casper From Nicolas.Williams@sun.com Wed Jan 23 14:59:57 2008 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m0NMxu5Z022403 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 14:59:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m0NMxpjr009073; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 22:59:52 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JV400F0XD7R2O00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 14:59:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM ([129.153.128.104]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JV4008F5D7QWY40@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 14:59:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m0NMxo3E010830; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 16:59:50 -0600 (CST) Received: (from nw141292@localhost) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1/Submit) id m0NMxoeU010829; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 16:59:50 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 16:59:50 -0600 From: Nicolas Williams Subject: Re: [Fwd: [Fwd: PSARC 2008/043 Phase 1 of OSS for Solaris]] In-reply-to: <200801232256.m0NMuTX0017610@dm-holland-02.uk.sun.com> To: Casper.Dik@sun.com Cc: Dev Mazumdar , Michael.Bender@sun.com, Robert Bartruff , audio-discuss@sun.com, Jerry.Wall@sun.com, PSARC-ext@sun.com, Freeman.Liu@sun.com, Padu Iyer , Frank.Che@sun.com, Stephen.Uhler@sun.com Mail-followup-to: Casper.Dik@Sun.COM, Dev Mazumdar , Michael.Bender@sun.com, Robert Bartruff , audio-discuss@sun.com, Jerry.Wall@sun.com, PSARC-ext@sun.com, Freeman.Liu@sun.com, Padu Iyer , Frank.Che@sun.com, Stephen.Uhler@sun.com Message-id: <20080123225950.GK6591@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <4797969D.8030507@sun.com> <4797B533.50707@sun.com> <20080123222017.GI6591@Sun.COM> <200801232256.m0NMuTX0017610@dm-holland-02.uk.sun.com> X-Authentication-warning: binky.Central.Sun.COM: nw141292 set sender to Nicolas.Williams@sun.com using -f User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.7i Status: RO Content-Length: 869 On Wed, Jan 23, 2008 at 11:56:29PM +0100, Casper.Dik@Sun.COM wrote: > Just to be sure: OSS will be either "optional" or used only for the > devices it actually support and we can continue to use SunRays until it > is fixed (I'm unsure why we'd even need to use OSS for SunRays) > > The reason Sun Ray uses $AUDIODEV and device entries in /tmp > is a simple down-to-earth one: the kernel has no way of knowing what > session you're in and so the Sun Ray service must offer the appropriate > device. > > The kernel does not have the information where to send to audio when > a "virtual" device is opened in the case of Sun Ray. Therefor the > decision cannot be made where to send to audio inside the kernel; the > decision must be made outside OR a new mechanism will need to be defined. Maybe we need a new sort of session ID associated (in-kernel) with processes. From Michael.Bender@sun.com Wed Jan 23 15:01:48 2008 Received: from sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m0NN1l1U022493 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 15:01:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m0NN1bGd001978; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 07:01:45 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JV400F1DDAV9U00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 15:01:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from sca-es-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.43.132]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JV4008KZDAUWY40@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 15:01:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from fe-sfbay-09.sun.com ([192.18.43.129]) by sca-es-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m0NN1f0Q001640; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 15:01:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from conversion-daemon.fe-sfbay-09.sun.com by fe-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0JV400E01D3TWZ00@fe-sfbay-09.sun.com> (original mail from Michael.Bender@Sun.COM); Wed, 23 Jan 2008 15:01:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from neva.local ([98.207.245.220]) by fe-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0JV400DMJDAJ0N20@fe-sfbay-09.sun.com>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 15:01:32 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 15:01:36 -0800 From: Michael Bender/MBP Subject: Re: [Fwd: [Fwd: PSARC 2008/043 Phase 1 of OSS for Solaris]] In-reply-to: <200801232256.m0NMuTX0017610@dm-holland-02.uk.sun.com> Sender: Michael.Bender@sun.com To: Casper.Dik@sun.com Cc: Nicolas Williams , Dev Mazumdar , Robert Bartruff , audio-discuss@sun.com, Jerry.Wall@sun.com, PSARC-ext@sun.com, Freeman.Liu@sun.com, Padu Iyer , Frank.Che@sun.com, Stephen.Uhler@sun.com Reply-to: Michael.Bender@sun.com Message-id: <4797C750.5000404@sun.com> Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc. MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <4797969D.8030507@sun.com> <4797B533.50707@sun.com> <20080123222017.GI6591@Sun.COM> <200801232256.m0NMuTX0017610@dm-holland-02.uk.sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Macintosh/20071031) Status: RO Content-Length: 1962 Casper.Dik@Sun.COM wrote: >> On Wed, Jan 23, 2008 at 01:44:19PM -0800, Dev Mazumdar wrote: >>> There is a sound server process for each client. The server process >>> opens the server side device of audioloop. The audioloop driver creates >>> a new device instance (client/server device pair) and binds it to the >>> UID of the user (I assume they use UID to identify the sessions). >> So if I have multiple sessions on the same server then one session will >> get all the sound for all of them while the others get no sound? >> >>> The main problem is to make OSS to scale to up to 100k clients without >>> using all available memory. It will also take some time to get OSS to >>> use UID or some other client identification to redirect access to the >>> right server. >> "some other client identification" seems like a better answer than "UID." > > > Just to be sure: OSS will be either "optional" or used only for the > devices it actually support and we can continue to use SunRays until it > is fixed (I'm unsure why we'd even need to use OSS for SunRays) There has been some talk by the GNOME folks to build GNOME to only use OSS as the audio API for GNOME and GNOME apps. If this were to happen, and Sun Ray did not have OSS API support (however that is actually implemented), then GNOME audio would stop working on Sun Ray. > The reason Sun Ray uses $AUDIODEV and device entries in /tmp > is a simple down-to-earth one: the kernel has no way of knowing what > session you're in and so the Sun Ray service must offer the appropriate > device. > > The kernel does not have the information where to send to audio when > a "virtual" device is opened in the case of Sun Ray. Therefor the > decision cannot be made where to send to audio inside the kernel; the > decision must be made outside OR a new mechanism will need to be defined. That is something that we are looking at doing, but we don't have any firm plans in that are right now. mike From Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com Wed Jan 23 15:36:07 2008 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m0NNa7xr022992 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 15:36:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m0NNa6QI009077; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 15:36:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JV40033REW61D00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 15:36:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from sca-es-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.43.132]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JV4005LPEW5FNA0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 15:36:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from fe-sfbay-09.sun.com ([192.18.43.129]) by sca-es-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m0NNa5ei005566; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 15:36:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from conversion-daemon.fe-sfbay-09.sun.com by fe-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0JV400801EOG2500@fe-sfbay-09.sun.com> (original mail from Alan.Coopersmith@Sun.COM); Wed, 23 Jan 2008 15:36:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from [129.146.108.211] by fe-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0JV400802EW4ED20@fe-sfbay-09.sun.com>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 15:36:05 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 15:36:04 -0800 From: Alan Coopersmith Subject: Re: [Fwd: [Fwd: PSARC 2008/043 Phase 1 of OSS for Solaris]] In-reply-to: <4797C750.5000404@sun.com> Sender: Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com To: Michael.Bender@sun.com Cc: Casper.Dik@sun.com, Nicolas Williams , Dev Mazumdar , Robert Bartruff , audio-discuss@sun.com, Jerry.Wall@sun.com, PSARC-ext@sun.com, Freeman.Liu@sun.com, Padu Iyer , Frank.Che@sun.com, Stephen.Uhler@sun.com Message-id: <4797CF64.3050402@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.1 References: <4797969D.8030507@sun.com> <4797B533.50707@sun.com> <20080123222017.GI6591@Sun.COM> <200801232256.m0NMuTX0017610@dm-holland-02.uk.sun.com> <4797C750.5000404@sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (X11/20071203) Status: RO Content-Length: 708 Michael Bender/MBP wrote: > There has been some talk by the GNOME folks to build GNOME to > only use OSS as the audio API for GNOME and GNOME apps. If this > were to happen, and Sun Ray did not have OSS API support (however > that is actually implemented), then GNOME audio would stop working > on Sun Ray. If and when they bring such a case to LSARC, we would ask them if all the sound devices supported by SADA are supported by OSS, and if not to go through the EOF process to get permission to drop support for all of those - which probably won't be granted for dropping Sun Ray support. -- -Alan Coopersmith- alan.coopersmith@sun.com Sun Microsystems, Inc. - X Window System Engineering From sacadmin Wed Jan 23 15:36:09 2008 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m0NNa9Q5022996 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 15:36:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m0NNa6QI009077; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 15:36:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JV40033REW61D00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 15:36:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from sca-es-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.43.132]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JV4005LPEW5FNA0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 15:36:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from fe-sfbay-09.sun.com ([192.18.43.129]) by sca-es-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m0NNa5ei005566; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 15:36:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from conversion-daemon.fe-sfbay-09.sun.com by fe-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0JV400801EOG2500@fe-sfbay-09.sun.com> (original mail from Alan.Coopersmith@Sun.COM); Wed, 23 Jan 2008 15:36:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from [129.146.108.211] by fe-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0JV400802EW4ED20@fe-sfbay-09.sun.com>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 15:36:05 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 15:36:04 -0800 From: Alan Coopersmith Subject: Re: [Fwd: [Fwd: PSARC 2008/043 Phase 1 of OSS for Solaris]] In-reply-to: <4797C750.5000404@sun.com> Sender: Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com To: Michael.Bender@sun.com Cc: Casper.Dik@sun.com, Nicolas Williams , Dev Mazumdar , Robert Bartruff , audio-discuss@sun.com, Jerry.Wall@sun.com, PSARC-ext@sun.com, Freeman.Liu@sun.com, Padu Iyer , Frank.Che@sun.com, Stephen.Uhler@sun.com Message-id: <4797CF64.3050402@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.1 References: <4797969D.8030507@sun.com> <4797B533.50707@sun.com> <20080123222017.GI6591@Sun.COM> <200801232256.m0NMuTX0017610@dm-holland-02.uk.sun.com> <4797C750.5000404@sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (X11/20071203) Status: RO Content-Length: 708 Michael Bender/MBP wrote: > There has been some talk by the GNOME folks to build GNOME to > only use OSS as the audio API for GNOME and GNOME apps. If this > were to happen, and Sun Ray did not have OSS API support (however > that is actually implemented), then GNOME audio would stop working > on Sun Ray. If and when they bring such a case to LSARC, we would ask them if all the sound devices supported by SADA are supported by OSS, and if not to go through the EOF process to get permission to drop support for all of those - which probably won't be granted for dropping Sun Ray support. -- -Alan Coopersmith- alan.coopersmith@sun.com Sun Microsystems, Inc. - X Window System Engineering From Brian.Cameron@sun.com Wed Jan 23 16:08:04 2008 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m0O0846Y023897 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 16:08:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m0O0836u022255; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 16:08:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JV400D0FGDFDN00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 17:08:03 -0700 (MST) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com ([192.18.98.34]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JV40053DGDDHSA0@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 17:08:01 -0700 (MST) Received: from fe-amer-09.sun.com ([192.18.109.79]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m0O081pV001996; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 00:08:01 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.mail-amer.sun.com by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0JV400F01FVRL700@mail-amer.sun.com> (original mail from Brian.Cameron@Sun.COM); Wed, 23 Jan 2008 17:08:01 -0700 (MST) Received: from [192.168.1.64] ([189.137.91.122]) by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0JV4009C7GD00IE0@mail-amer.sun.com>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 17:07:51 -0700 (MST) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 18:07:48 -0600 From: Brian Cameron Subject: Re: [Fwd: [Fwd: PSARC 2008/043 Phase 1 of OSS for Solaris]] In-reply-to: <4797C750.5000404@sun.com> Sender: Brian.Cameron@sun.com To: Michael.Bender@sun.com Cc: Casper.Dik@sun.com, Robert Bartruff , audio-discuss@sun.com, Dev Mazumdar , Jerry.Wall@sun.com, PSARC-ext@sun.com, Freeman.Liu@sun.com, Padu Iyer , Frank.Che@sun.com, Stephen.Uhler@sun.com Message-id: <4797D6D4.40507@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <4797969D.8030507@sun.com> <4797B533.50707@sun.com> <20080123222017.GI6591@Sun.COM> <200801232256.m0NMuTX0017610@dm-holland-02.uk.sun.com> <4797C750.5000404@sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (X11/20071203) Status: RO Content-Length: 1104 Michael: >> Just to be sure: OSS will be either "optional" or used only for the >> devices it actually support and we can continue to use SunRays until it >> is fixed (I'm unsure why we'd even need to use OSS for SunRays) > > There has been some talk by the GNOME folks to build GNOME to > only use OSS as the audio API for GNOME and GNOME apps. If this > were to happen, and Sun Ray did not have OSS API support (however > that is actually implemented), then GNOME audio would stop working > on Sun Ray. Not true. The JDS team's plan is to support SADA as long as necessary for our users. Some GNOME audio applications (such as those which are GStreamer based) support both SADA and OSS plugins. We may (no guarantees) likewise enhance Flash, RealPlayer, and/or Ekiga to support both OSS and SADA in a configurable fashion. We will likely make OSS the default, but users/sysadmins/etc. will be able to configure to SADA if they desire. However, we do not plan on dropping SADA support for any applications. We would consider dropping SADA support if all our users have migrated to OSS. Brian From Michael.Bender@sun.com Wed Jan 23 16:18:44 2008 Received: from newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (newsunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.245]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m0O0IiIV024112 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 16:18:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m0O0Ih67061228; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 17:18:43 -0700 (MST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JV400707GV72C00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 16:18:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from sca-es-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.43.132]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JV4005ZHGV6FEB0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 16:18:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from fe-sfbay-10.sun.com ([192.18.43.129]) by sca-es-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m0O0IgW0009932; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 16:18:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from conversion-daemon.fe-sfbay-10.sun.com by fe-sfbay-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0JV400801GUFHH00@fe-sfbay-10.sun.com> (original mail from Michael.Bender@Sun.COM); Wed, 23 Jan 2008 16:18:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from neva.local ([98.207.245.220]) by fe-sfbay-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0JV400BEIGV5KJ70@fe-sfbay-10.sun.com>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 16:18:41 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 16:18:45 -0800 From: Michael Bender/MBP Subject: Re: [Fwd: [Fwd: PSARC 2008/043 Phase 1 of OSS for Solaris]] In-reply-to: <4797D6D4.40507@sun.com> Sender: Michael.Bender@sun.com To: Brian Cameron Cc: Casper.Dik@sun.com, Robert Bartruff , audio-discuss@sun.com, Dev Mazumdar , Jerry.Wall@sun.com, PSARC-ext@sun.com, Freeman.Liu@sun.com, Padu Iyer , Frank.Che@sun.com, Stephen.Uhler@sun.com Reply-to: Michael.Bender@sun.com Message-id: <4797D965.8040007@sun.com> Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc. MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <4797969D.8030507@sun.com> <4797B533.50707@sun.com> <20080123222017.GI6591@Sun.COM> <200801232256.m0NMuTX0017610@dm-holland-02.uk.sun.com> <4797C750.5000404@sun.com> <4797D6D4.40507@sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Macintosh/20071031) Status: RO Content-Length: 1549 Brian Cameron wrote: > Michael: > >>> Just to be sure: OSS will be either "optional" or used only for the >>> devices it actually support and we can continue to use SunRays until it >>> is fixed (I'm unsure why we'd even need to use OSS for SunRays) >> >> There has been some talk by the GNOME folks to build GNOME to >> only use OSS as the audio API for GNOME and GNOME apps. If this >> were to happen, and Sun Ray did not have OSS API support (however >> that is actually implemented), then GNOME audio would stop working >> on Sun Ray. > > Not true. The JDS team's plan is to support SADA as long as necessary > for our users. > > Some GNOME audio applications (such as those which are GStreamer based) > support both SADA and OSS plugins. We may (no guarantees) likewise > enhance Flash, RealPlayer, and/or Ekiga to support both OSS and SADA > in a configurable fashion. We will likely make OSS the default, but > users/sysadmins/etc. will be able to configure to SADA if they desire. > > However, we do not plan on dropping SADA support for any applications. > We would consider dropping SADA support if all our users have migrated > to OSS. Thanks for the clarification, Brian. In our last meeting before the break, I didn't feel that there was such a concrete decision from your team. I'm glad to hear that you have clarity on this now. Given that is the GNOME team's plan, can you see any reason that Sun Ray should support OSS APIs if there will be no loss in GNOME functionality is Sun Ray continues to support only SADA? mike From Brian.Cameron@sun.com Wed Jan 23 16:30:27 2008 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m0O0URR5024505 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 16:30:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m0O0UQ82027851; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 16:30:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JV40000JHEPZD00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 16:30:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.98.31]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JV4008PYHEMWY90@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 16:30:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from fe-amer-09.sun.com ([192.18.109.79]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m0O0UMHK016906; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 00:30:22 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.mail-amer.sun.com by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0JV400L01H3SK700@mail-amer.sun.com> (original mail from Brian.Cameron@Sun.COM); Wed, 23 Jan 2008 17:30:22 -0700 (MST) Received: from [192.168.1.64] ([189.137.91.122]) by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0JV400AANHEAWL60@mail-amer.sun.com>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 17:30:18 -0700 (MST) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 18:30:11 -0600 From: Brian Cameron Subject: Re: [Fwd: [Fwd: PSARC 2008/043 Phase 1 of OSS for Solaris]] In-reply-to: <4797D965.8040007@sun.com> Sender: Brian.Cameron@sun.com To: Michael.Bender@sun.com Cc: Casper.Dik@sun.com, Robert Bartruff , audio-discuss@sun.com, Dev Mazumdar , Jerry.Wall@sun.com, PSARC-ext@sun.com, Freeman.Liu@sun.com, Padu Iyer , Frank.Che@sun.com, Stephen.Uhler@sun.com Message-id: <4797DC13.2080901@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <4797969D.8030507@sun.com> <4797B533.50707@sun.com> <20080123222017.GI6591@Sun.COM> <200801232256.m0NMuTX0017610@dm-holland-02.uk.sun.com> <4797C750.5000404@sun.com> <4797D6D4.40507@sun.com> <4797D965.8040007@sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (X11/20071203) Status: RO Content-Length: 960 Michael: > Thanks for the clarification, Brian. In our last meeting before > the break, I didn't feel that there was such a concrete decision > from your team. I'm glad to hear that you have clarity on this > now. Yes, after discussion it became obvious we needed to support SADA mainly for Sun Ray users. > Given that is the GNOME team's plan, can you see any reason that > Sun Ray should support OSS APIs if there will be no loss in > GNOME functionality is Sun Ray continues to support only SADA? Yes. It would simplify things for the JDS team to only have to support one set of interfaces. Needing to support both requires additional testing and resources fixing bugs, etc. So we hope that, over time, Sun Ray will migrate to OSS so that we can eventually drop the need to support Sun Ray interfaces in the JDS stack. That said, I don't think there is any rush. It will likely take some time for OSS to fully integrate into Nevada anyway. Brian From stephen.uhler@sun.com Wed Jan 23 16:39:50 2008 Received: from sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m0O0dnO4024889 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 16:39:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m0O0dkrY011119; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 08:39:47 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JV400107HU9YO00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 16:39:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from gack.sfbay.sun.com ([129.146.74.65]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JV4008A0HU8WTA0@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 16:39:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from gack (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by gack.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m0O0eklU002905; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 16:40:46 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 16:40:46 -0800 From: Stephen Uhler Subject: Re: [Fwd: [Fwd: PSARC 2008/043 Phase 1 of OSS for Solaris]] In-reply-to: "Your message of Wed, 23 Jan 2008 18:07:48 CST." <4797D6D4.40507@sun.com> To: Brian Cameron Cc: PSARC-EXT@sun.com Reply-to: stephen.uhler@sun.com Message-id: <200801240040.m0O0eklU002905@gack.sfbay.sun.com> Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 Status: RO Content-Length: 1810 >>>Brian Cameron said: > > Michael: > > >> Just to be sure: OSS will be either "optional" or used only for the > >> devices it actually support and we can continue to use SunRays until it > >> is fixed (I'm unsure why we'd even need to use OSS for SunRays) > > > > There has been some talk by the GNOME folks to build GNOME to > > only use OSS as the audio API for GNOME and GNOME apps. If this > > were to happen, and Sun Ray did not have OSS API support (however > > that is actually implemented), then GNOME audio would stop working > > on Sun Ray. > > Not true. The JDS team's plan is to support SADA as long as necessary > for our users. > > Some GNOME audio applications (such as those which are GStreamer based) > support both SADA and OSS plugins. We may (no guarantees) likewise > enhance Flash, RealPlayer, and/or Ekiga to support both OSS and SADA > in a configurable fashion. We will likely make OSS the default, but > users/sysadmins/etc. will be able to configure to SADA if they desire. > > However, we do not plan on dropping SADA support for any applications. > We would consider dropping SADA support if all our users have migrated > to OSS. It might take a very long time to migrate all the applications to OSS. I have quite a few SADA based apps I've built over the years, many of which I was unable to successfully port to OSS (for Linux) as the OSS implementations were never adaquate. In addition, the SADA API's use a different architectural model, so I would expect either significant porting assistance, or changes to the OSS api's to better support applications built using the SADA before it is worthwhile to port them. I suspect much of the audio related work I do will stop happening on Solaris if SADA goes away, and I am left only with OSS. Stephen > > Brian > From Brian.Cameron@sun.com Wed Jan 23 16:51:18 2008 Received: from newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (newsunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.245]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m0O0pIDg025173 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 16:51:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m0O0pEGl004748 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-ext@sun.com>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 17:51:18 -0700 (MST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JV400A17IDFD100@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Wed, 23 Jan 2008 16:51:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com ([192.18.98.34]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JV4005LKIDDFGE0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Wed, 23 Jan 2008 16:51:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from fe-amer-10.sun.com ([192.18.109.80]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m0O0pDOn014579 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 00:51:13 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.mail-amer.sun.com by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0JV400J01IAUD400@mail-amer.sun.com> (original mail from Brian.Cameron@Sun.COM) for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Wed, 23 Jan 2008 17:51:13 -0700 (MST) Received: from [192.168.1.64] ([189.137.91.122]) by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0JV40040WIDB5D60@mail-amer.sun.com>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 17:51:13 -0700 (MST) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 18:51:11 -0600 From: Brian Cameron Subject: Re: [Fwd: [Fwd: PSARC 2008/043 Phase 1 of OSS for Solaris]] In-reply-to: <200801240040.m0O0eklU002905@gack.sfbay.sun.com> Sender: Brian.Cameron@sun.com To: Stephen.Uhler@sun.com Cc: PSARC-ext@sun.com Message-id: <4797E0FF.5040203@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200801240040.m0O0eklU002905@gack.sfbay.sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (X11/20071203) Status: RO Content-Length: 1223 Stephen: >> However, we do not plan on dropping SADA support for any applications. >> We would consider dropping SADA support if all our users have migrated >> to OSS. > > It might take a very long time to migrate all the applications to OSS. I mean to convert *just* those programs that JDS is responsible for. If Sun Ray were to switch to OSS, then the JDS team could migrate all JDS related programs to OSS. Then the JDS team would no longer need to support SADA interfaces. Other teams might still own programs that depend on SADA, however. I don't expect SADA will go away the minute the JDS team stops depending on it. > I have quite a few SADA based apps I've built over the years, many of which > I was unable to successfully port to OSS (for Linux) as the OSS implementations > were never adaquate. In addition, the SADA API's use a different architectural > model, so I would expect either significant porting assistance, or changes to > the OSS api's to better support applications built using the SADA before it > is worthwhile to port them. > > I suspect much of the audio related work I do will stop happening on Solaris > if SADA goes away, and I am left only with OSS. > > Stephen >> Brian >> From binarycrusader@gmail.com Wed Jan 23 17:20:38 2008 Received: from newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (newsunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.245]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m0O1KcXw026159 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 17:20:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m0O1KafP010746 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-EXT@sun.com>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 18:20:38 -0700 (MST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JV400D0LJQDEB00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Wed, 23 Jan 2008 17:20:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from sca-ea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.43.24]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JV400D26JQD7400@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for PSARC-EXT@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-EXT@sun.com); Wed, 23 Jan 2008 17:20:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay42i.sun.com ([192.5.209.72]) by sca-ea-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m0O1C4Dk024612 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 01:20:37 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mms48es.sun.com ([160.41.221.231] [160.41.221.231]) by relay42i.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-181162 for PSARC-EXT@sun.com; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 01:20:36 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay44i.sun.com (relay44i.sun.com [192.5.209.118]) by mms48es.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-1335612 for PSARC-EXT@sun.com; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 01:20:36 +0000 (Z) Received: from py-out-1112.google.com ([64.233.166.182] [64.233.166.182]) by relay4i.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-36331621 for PSARC-EXT@sun.com; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 01:20:36 +0000 (Z) Received: by py-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id p76so42613pyb.5 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 17:20:36 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.141.48.10 with SMTP id a10mr46247rvk.35.1201137635856; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 17:20:35 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.140.142.6 with HTTP; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 17:20:35 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 19:20:35 -0600 From: Shawn Walker Subject: Re: [Fwd: [Fwd: PSARC 2008/043 Phase 1 of OSS for Solaris]] In-reply-to: <200801240040.m0O0eklU002905@gack.sfbay.sun.com> Sender: binarycrusader@gmail.com To: stephen.uhler@sun.com Cc: Brian Cameron , PSARC-EXT@sun.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references:x-google-sender-auth; bh=G3SgT5dqCf2Tkb4i/6zgahabImL1CfkMi70jnEi5BnI=; b=gNFgGT2FxOJpFEg+Wp9y2STBbQmAa5LjPAoElhBPGEVRtXaFEcLHAuwNsfmRZo12M7FKCEyU+iQH2boXOTgFo1eTdJWLMkLsduSTAcAZQ27QiJ0pU4jXx2ybGHOZrTBei7MEUFH1iu6K0qRnpHT+e6I0jHh16b5ECi6mu6SJ2ro= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=PwzVh4FVrO4Sk5vy4qmHhT4qBEsC+R03Fuo6MVfN5b+s3vaVffzvGLCTlCU28inzgvZ40TLrWPWUykyYlEp4XZf6FYvwh7hYgrqGuXlyZs+1lZU1AaI/MHk24cj6zkgqzTtcl1OpPlCkBxN36oeQ6YxRTZDIeItJ4hx9vnI6b3Y= X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== X-Google-Sender-Auth: e583d965fcad9bbf X-Antispam: No, score=-2.6/5.0, scanned in 0.092sec at (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smf-spamd v1.3.1 - http://smfs.sf.net/ References: <4797D6D4.40507@sun.com> <200801240040.m0O0eklU002905@gack.sfbay.sun.com> Status: RO Content-Length: 2507 On Jan 23, 2008 6:40 PM, Stephen Uhler wrote: > > >>>Brian Cameron said: > > > > Michael: > > > > >> Just to be sure: OSS will be either "optional" or used only for the > > >> devices it actually support and we can continue to use SunRays until it > > >> is fixed (I'm unsure why we'd even need to use OSS for SunRays) > > > > > > There has been some talk by the GNOME folks to build GNOME to > > > only use OSS as the audio API for GNOME and GNOME apps. If this > > > were to happen, and Sun Ray did not have OSS API support (however > > > that is actually implemented), then GNOME audio would stop working > > > on Sun Ray. > > > > Not true. The JDS team's plan is to support SADA as long as necessary > > for our users. > > > > Some GNOME audio applications (such as those which are GStreamer based) > > support both SADA and OSS plugins. We may (no guarantees) likewise > > enhance Flash, RealPlayer, and/or Ekiga to support both OSS and SADA > > in a configurable fashion. We will likely make OSS the default, but > > users/sysadmins/etc. will be able to configure to SADA if they desire. > > > > However, we do not plan on dropping SADA support for any applications. > > We would consider dropping SADA support if all our users have migrated > > to OSS. > > It might take a very long time to migrate all the applications to OSS. > I have quite a few SADA based apps I've built over the years, many of which > I was unable to successfully port to OSS (for Linux) as the OSS implementations > were never adaquate. In addition, the SADA API's use a different architectural > model, so I would expect either significant porting assistance, or changes to > the OSS api's to better support applications built using the SADA before it > is worthwhile to port them. It would be very helpful if you could post to the open sound discussion list here then with those problem: http://www.opensolaris.org/os/project/opensound/discussions/ > I suspect much of the audio related work I do will stop happening on Solaris > if SADA goes away, and I am left only with OSS. I'm not sure why you would need to do that. However, I don't see why SADA wouldn't eventually go away at some point. OSS provides far more capable API in some areas than SADA, and carrying around the SADA baggage forever can't be good, can it? -- Shawn Walker, Software and Systems Analyst http://binarycrusader.blogspot.com/ "To err is human -- and to blame it on a computer is even more so." - Robert Orben From lingbo.tang@sun.com Wed Jan 23 18:41:21 2008 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m0O2fLJJ027671 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 18:41:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m0O2fJoL005750; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 02:41:20 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JV400203NGUV700@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 19:41:18 -0700 (MST) Received: from sineb-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.19.6]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JV400JYPNGTMK80@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 19:41:18 -0700 (MST) Received: from fe-apac-06.sun.com (fe-apac-06.sun.com [192.18.19.177] (may be forged)) by sineb-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m0O2fHox009600; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 02:41:17 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.mail-apac.sun.com by mail-apac.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JV400M01N88Q000@mail-apac.sun.com> (original mail from Lingbo.Tang@Sun.COM); Thu, 24 Jan 2008 10:41:17 +0800 (SGT) Received: from [10.13.21.152] by mail-apac.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JV400HEHNGPA1NM@mail-apac.sun.com>; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 10:41:14 +0800 (SGT) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 10:42:01 +0800 From: LingBo Tang Subject: Re: PSARC 2008/043 Phase 1 of OSS for Solaris In-reply-to: <4797B855.4090502@sun.com> Sender: lingbo.tang@sun.com To: Margot Miller Cc: Frank Che , PSARC-ext@sun.com, Freeman.Liu@sun.com, audio-discuss@sun.com Message-id: <4797FAF9.9020707@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en-us, en X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <47941220.6050702@sun.com> <4797B855.4090502@sun.com> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050915 Status: RO Content-Length: 5548 The goal of the first phase is to keep SADA compatibility and support new hdaudio device, so there is no OSS CLI in this phase. Users can do the volume control, play and record jobs with the existing tools as before. Regards, Lingbo Margot Miller wrote: > It looks like none of the OSS CLI will be part of this phase. > How will volume control be done? Does the Solaris audio > CLI and Gnome volume control work with OSS hdaudio driver? > > Margot > > > Frank Che wrote: > >> I'm sponsoring this fast track for Freeman Liu and the audio team. >> The requested binding is minor. The timer is set to 01/29/2008. >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> >> 4.Technical Description >> >> This project is phase 1 of the umbrella project described in >> "Open Sound System (OSS) for Solaris" (PSARC 2007/238) >> There are two main goals of this phase. One is to integrate OSS high >> definition audio driver "hdaudio" into Solaris to support the most >> popular audio hardware. The other goal is to keep SADA >> (Solaris Audio Driver Architecture) compatibility so that there will >> be no regression for the current SADA applications. >> >> Theoretically, all the HD audio hardware will be supported. We will test >> the ones supported by SADA HD audio driver to prevent regression. >> Several >> other popular codecs will also be covered. >> >> The SADA compatibility is accomplished by an emulation layer named >> "sadasupport". It is a pseudo SADA audio driver which provides SADA >> interface to upper level. From the applications' point of view, it >> is not different from other SADA drivers. On the other hand, it does >> not operate the hardware directly. Instead, it accesses the device file >> provided by the lower level OSS drivers through ldi interface. The >> following diagram illustrates the relations between SADA framework, >> sadasupport, OSS framework and OSS driver where there is a HD audio >> hardware in the system >> >> |-------------| >> User level |app1,app2 ...| >> |------+------| >> |(1) >> | >> |-----+----| |--------| >> -------------------|/dev/audio|-----------------|/dev/dsp|------------------ >> >> |-----+----| |-+--+---| >> |(2) (4) | | >> Kernel level | +--------------------+ |(5) >> | | | >> |--------------|(3)|-----+---+-| >> |---+---|(6)|-------------| >> |SADA framework+---+sadasupport| |hdaudio+---+OSS >> framework| >> |--------------| |-----------| |---+---| >> |-------------| >> |(7) >> |---+----| >> |HD audio| >> |hardware| >> |--------| >> >> * (1),(2) Applications make audio requests through /dev/audio, >> which is exported by sadasupport. >> * (3) Sadasupport turns to SADA framework to fulfill the requests >> * (4),(5) Sadasupport access hdaudio driver by ldi interface when >> it needs service from hdaudio driver to complete the requests >> * (6),(7) Hdaudio turn to OSS framework to fulfill the requests >> and operate the hardware when needed. >> >> In phase 1, the device file "/dev/dsp" provided by OSS drivers is a >> project private interface and only root user is able to access it. >> No new interface will be published in this phase. Although HD audio >> driver is replaced by OSS hdaudio driver, other SADA drivers will not >> be replaced in phase 1. Drivers of the two different frameworks can work >> together. SADA framework will not be removed, either. Detailed >> information >> of SADA can be found in man pages: audio(7I), mixer(7I) and >> audio_support(7I). >> >> Summarily, we use OSS hdaudio driver to support HD audio hardware >> and use sadasupport to maintain SADA compatibility. >> >> During the discussion of the umbrella case, the issue of latency has >> been brought up. In this context, latency means the time gap between >> the time hardware/driver is changed by other applications or by external >> events and the time when applications sense it. And it should be >> achieved without high CPU usage. It can be achieved by leverage >> feature provided by SADA interface. Since SADA interface will be kept, >> latency issues is addressed naturally. Consensus was reached during >> the offline discussion. >> >> Here is the list of all kernel module and driver files: >> osscommon >> osscore >> osscore.conf >> sadasupport >> sadasupport.conf >> vmix >> vmix.conf >> hdaudio >> hdaudio.conf >> >> Some of the tunables provided by the .conf files are for changing >> some aspect of the OSS system. But the default value is suitable >> in most case and they rarely need to be changed. Other tunable are >> for debugging. >> >> All these files and the tunables are of project private stability in >> this >> phase. They might be changed in the following phases. >> >> 5. Reference Documents: >> >> Open Sound System (OSS) for Solaris (PSARC 2007/238). >> http://opensolaris.org/os/project/opensound >> >> >> >> > From dev@opensound.com Wed Jan 23 19:02:15 2008 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m0O32FUK028210 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 19:02:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m0O32BaQ000088; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 19:02:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JV400I0FOFMYT00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 19:02:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from sca-ea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.43.24]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JV400E5FOFK3V20@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 19:02:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay18i.sun.com (ip128.net129179-4.block1.us.syntegra.com [129.179.4.128]) by sca-ea-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m0O31xjd015312; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 03:02:07 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mmp14es.sun.com ([160.41.209.24] [160.41.209.24]) by relay18i.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-42725; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 03:01:59 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay14i.sun.com (relay14i.sun.com [129.179.4.124]) by mmp14es.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-122781; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 03:01:57 +0000 (Z) Received: from mta13.adelphia.net ([68.168.78.44] [68.168.78.44]) by relay1i.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-222075; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 03:01:57 +0000 (Z) Received: from [192.1.2.21] (really [76.90.49.38]) by mta13.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.05.02 201-2131-123-102-20050715) with ESMTP id <20080124030155.KRWC24798.mta13.adelphia.net@[192.1.2.21]>; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 22:01:55 -0500 Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 19:01:51 -0800 From: Dev Mazumdar Subject: Re: [Fwd: PSARC 2008/043 Phase 1 of OSS for Solaris] In-reply-to: <200801240040.m0O0eklU002905@gack.sfbay.sun.com> To: Stephen.Uhler@sun.com Cc: PSARC-ext@sun.com, Hannu Savolainen , Brian Cameron , swalker@opensolaris.org Message-id: <4797FF9F.10006@opensound.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Boundary_(ID_tQ7ZwFbbHtKzqlpyuSuYbg)" X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== X-Antispam: No, score=-2.6/5.0, scanned in 0.988sec at (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smf-spamd v1.3.1 - http://smfs.sf.net/ References: <200801240040.m0O0eklU002905@gack.sfbay.sun.com> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.8.1.11) Gecko/20071128 SeaMonkey/1.1.7 Status: RO Content-Length: 72338 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_tQ7ZwFbbHtKzqlpyuSuYbg) Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Stephen Uhler wrote: > It might take a very long time to migrate all the applications to OSS. > I have quite a few SADA based apps I've built over the years, many of which > I was unable to successfully port to OSS (for Linux) as the OSS implementations > were never adaquate. In addition, the SADA API's use a different architectural > model, so I would expect either significant porting assistance, or changes to > the OSS api's to better support applications built using the SADA before it > is worthwhile to port them. > > I suspect much of the audio related work I do will stop happening on Solaris > if SADA goes away, and I am left only with OSS. > > Stephen Hi Stephen, We have asked you for the source code to your apps so that we can study them and see how they can modified to run on top of OSS. We just got from Margot were some sample programs (attached) which seem to be TCL based - the code doesn't seem to compile since there's no TCL sources or headers on the standard Solaris. We would love to see what special technique you have implemented in the software. There are TCL bindings for OSS see the Snack TCL/Tk toolkit: http://www.speech.kth.se/snack/ Apps like Skype, games like Quake and Doom, DVD players like Mplayer and Xine have absolutely no latency or synch problems running on OSS on Linux or Solaris. Asterix was originally developed on top of OSS. You are basing your impressions of OSS from 1990s and it's totally unfair to compare those old open source implementations with OSS v4.0. If we do have shortcomings in Open Sound, let's look at the code together and help fix the problems. best regards Dev Mazumdar ----------------------------------------------------------- 4Front Technologies 4035 Lafayette Place, Unit F, Culver City, CA 90232, USA. 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--Boundary_(ID_tQ7ZwFbbHtKzqlpyuSuYbg)-- From Freeman.Liu@sun.com Thu Jan 24 01:04:06 2008 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m0O945Vu003558 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 01:04:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m0O9401f006260; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 09:04:04 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JV500C0156Q1W00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 02:04:02 -0700 (MST) Received: from sineb-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.19.6]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JV5007O256OOU30@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 02:04:01 -0700 (MST) Received: from fe-apac-05.sun.com (fe-apac-05.sun.com [192.18.19.176] (may be forged)) by sineb-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m0O93x1e006228; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 09:03:59 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.mail-apac.sun.com by mail-apac.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JV5003015627600@mail-apac.sun.com> (original mail from Freeman.Liu@Sun.COM); Thu, 24 Jan 2008 17:03:59 +0800 (SGT) Received: from [129.150.144.28] by mail-apac.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JV5003N656AMJA6@mail-apac.sun.com>; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 17:03:59 +0800 (SGT) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 17:03:44 +0800 From: Freeman Liu Subject: Re: [Fwd: [Fwd: PSARC 2008/043 Phase 1 of OSS for Solaris]] In-reply-to: <4797969D.8030507@sun.com> Sender: Freeman.Liu@sun.com To: Michael.Bender@sun.com Cc: psarc-ext@sun.com, audio-discuss@sun.com, Frank.Che@sun.com, Jerry.Wall@sun.com, Padu Iyer , Robert Bartruff , Stephen.Uhler@sun.com Message-id: <47985470.309@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <4797969D.8030507@sun.com> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.8.1.11) Gecko/20071128 SeaMonkey/1.1.7 Status: RO Content-Length: 8883 Dear all, When I waked up, I found all these interesting stuff here ! First, forgive me that I cannot give answers to all these questions because I have no time to investigate into Sunray issue deep enough. However, I would like to emphasis that we are doing this project in several phases. All these phases are set according to priorities and dependency. Please refer to this for detailed information: http://sac.eng/Archives/CaseLog/arc/PSARC/2007/238/OSSUmbrella.txt According to it, we will address Sunray issue in phase 3. So, please stay tuned. Anyway, I will try to clarify several issues. OSS will be the default audio interface in the long run. Most applications, for instance, Gnome, will migrate to it. On the other hand, SADA interface will also be supported for a long time to support all these existing applications that will not migrate for whatever reason. We have to protect the previous investment. Actually, we take SADA compatibility a critical requirement of the whole project. As for when we will make OSS the default interface, the answer is when there is no regression to do that, which means when it supports all the hardware supported by SADA and its support the feature like power management. Sunray support has to be achieved before Gnome migrates to OSS interface because it share JDS as desktop, as pointed out by Brian. Last but not least, advices from you field experts and PSARC on issues like Sunray is critical, as pointed by Michael. I may not be able to digest all of them right now. But I will when I reach the relevant phase. Best regards Freeman Michael Bender/MBP wrote: > These are general comments on the OSS project, and not all are > specific to this particular fastttrack, so I'm sorry for hijacking > this thread. > > I would like to note that the OSS project does not seem to have > taken Sun Ray audio support into account. Sun Ray and the pervious > OSS team (Margot, Vicki and 4Front) had an agreement that 4Front > and OSS would come up with a solution to allow OSS to work in a > Sun Ray environment, however I have not seen any work progress in > that area. The following fast track also doesn't seem to address > any environment other than the single-user workstation model. > > I would like to strongly suggest that PSARC give a directive to > the OSS team to consider the multi-user environment such as a > Sun Ray server or other multi-user environments that require > multiple distinct audio paths through the system to multiple > distinct audio hardware devices. > > What I have seen in the OSS project so far is an effort to take > code form 4Front and put it into Solaris in order to support > some additional audio hardware - that's fine, since we do need > to be able to support newer audio hardware - but I also see that > the project proposes to integrate a userland and kernel framework > that is completely unaware of a multi-user environment such as > Sun Ray. I do not want to debate the merits of the OSS API as > opposed to the SADA API - others have gone down that path - but > what I do want to emphasize is that the OSS project, as it now > stands, has a very good chance of disrupting the Sun customer > base that is using popular Sun technologies such as Sun Ray > and GNOME (assuming that the plans to switch GNOME to using > OSS rather than SADA materialize) if apps and window systems > convert to the OSS API, have no way of using SADA at runtime, > and if the OSS project provides the only practical, supported > audio API in Solaris going forward (SADA shim notwithstanding). > > I would like to request that PSARC provide some strong > architectural guidance in this area so that we don't wind > up with a big mess down the road. > > thanks, > mike > > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: PSARC 2008/043 Phase 1 of OSS for Solaris > Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 11:31:44 +0800 > From: Frank Che > To: PSARC-ext@sun.com > CC: Freeman.Liu@sun.com, audio-discuss@sun.com > > > > I'm sponsoring this fast track for Freeman Liu and the audio team. > The requested binding is minor. The timer is set to 01/29/2008. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > 4.Technical Description > > This project is phase 1 of the umbrella project described in > "Open Sound System (OSS) for Solaris" (PSARC 2007/238) > There are two main goals of this phase. One is to integrate OSS high > definition audio driver "hdaudio" into Solaris to support the most > popular audio hardware. The other goal is to keep SADA > (Solaris Audio Driver Architecture) compatibility so that there will > be no regression for the current SADA applications. > > Theoretically, all the HD audio hardware will be supported. We will test > the ones supported by SADA HD audio driver to prevent regression. Several > other popular codecs will also be covered. > > The SADA compatibility is accomplished by an emulation layer named > "sadasupport". It is a pseudo SADA audio driver which provides SADA > interface to upper level. From the applications' point of view, it > is not different from other SADA drivers. On the other hand, it does > not operate the hardware directly. Instead, it accesses the device file > provided by the lower level OSS drivers through ldi interface. The > following diagram illustrates the relations between SADA framework, > sadasupport, OSS framework and OSS driver where there is a HD audio > hardware in the system > > |-------------| > User level |app1,app2 ...| > |------+------| > |(1) > | > |-----+----| |--------| > -------------------|/dev/audio|-----------------|/dev/dsp|------------------ > > |-----+----| |-+--+---| > |(2) (4) | | > Kernel level | +--------------------+ |(5) > | | | > |--------------|(3)|-----+---+-| > |---+---|(6)|-------------| > |SADA framework+---+sadasupport| |hdaudio+---+OSS > framework| > |--------------| |-----------| |---+---| > |-------------| > |(7) > |---+----| > |HD audio| > |hardware| > |--------| > > * (1),(2) Applications make audio requests through /dev/audio, > which is exported by sadasupport. > * (3) Sadasupport turns to SADA framework to fulfill the requests > * (4),(5) Sadasupport access hdaudio driver by ldi interface when > it needs service from hdaudio driver to complete the requests > * (6),(7) Hdaudio turn to OSS framework to fulfill the requests > and operate the hardware when needed. > > In phase 1, the device file "/dev/dsp" provided by OSS drivers is a > project private interface and only root user is able to access it. > No new interface will be published in this phase. Although HD audio > driver is replaced by OSS hdaudio driver, other SADA drivers will not > be replaced in phase 1. Drivers of the two different frameworks can work > together. SADA framework will not be removed, either. Detailed > information > of SADA can be found in man pages: audio(7I), mixer(7I) and > audio_support(7I). > > Summarily, we use OSS hdaudio driver to support HD audio hardware > and use sadasupport to maintain SADA compatibility. > > During the discussion of the umbrella case, the issue of latency has > been brought up. In this context, latency means the time gap between > the time hardware/driver is changed by other applications or by external > events and the time when applications sense it. And it should be > achieved without high CPU usage. It can be achieved by leverage > feature provided by SADA interface. Since SADA interface will be kept, > latency issues is addressed naturally. Consensus was reached during > the offline discussion. > > Here is the list of all kernel module and driver files: > osscommon > osscore > osscore.conf > sadasupport > sadasupport.conf > vmix > vmix.conf > hdaudio > hdaudio.conf > > Some of the tunables provided by the .conf files are for changing > some aspect of the OSS system. But the default value is suitable > in most case and they rarely need to be changed. Other tunable are > for debugging. > > All these files and the tunables are of project private stability in this > phase. They might be changed in the following phases. > > 5. Reference Documents: > > Open Sound System (OSS) for Solaris (PSARC 2007/238). > http://opensolaris.org/os/project/opensound > > > > > From casper@holland.sun.com Thu Jan 24 01:08:20 2008 Received: from sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m0O98JqN003573 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 01:08:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m0O98Gb4005497; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 17:08:18 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JV500I015DTLL00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 01:08:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from dm-holland-02.uk.sun.com ([129.156.101.225]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JV500CZJ5DR5H20@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 01:08:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from holland (room101.Holland.Sun.COM [10.16.117.40]) by dm-holland-02.uk.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m0O988Eu029278; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 09:08:08 +0000 (GMT) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 10:08:08 +0100 From: Casper.Dik@sun.com Subject: Re: [Fwd: [Fwd: PSARC 2008/043 Phase 1 of OSS for Solaris]] In-reply-to: <4797C750.5000404@sun.com> Sender: casper@holland.sun.com To: Michael.Bender@sun.com Cc: Nicolas Williams , Dev Mazumdar , Robert Bartruff , audio-discuss@sun.com, Jerry.Wall@sun.com, PSARC-ext@sun.com, Freeman.Liu@sun.com, Padu Iyer , Frank.Che@sun.com, Stephen.Uhler@sun.com Message-id: <200801240908.m0O988Eu029278@dm-holland-02.uk.sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <4797969D.8030507@sun.com> <4797B533.50707@sun.com> <20080123222017.GI6591@Sun.COM> <200801232256.m0NMuTX0017610@dm-holland-02.uk.sun.com> <4797C750.5000404@sun.com> Status: RO Content-Length: 1624 >There has been some talk by the GNOME folks to build GNOME to >only use OSS as the audio API for GNOME and GNOME apps. If this >were to happen, and Sun Ray did not have OSS API support (however >that is actually implemented), then GNOME audio would stop working >on Sun Ray. Then I would argue that any such talk is either premature or incomplete. >> The reason Sun Ray uses $AUDIODEV and device entries in /tmp >> is a simple down-to-earth one: the kernel has no way of knowing what >> session you're in and so the Sun Ray service must offer the appropriate >> device. >> >> The kernel does not have the information where to send to audio when >> a "virtual" device is opened in the case of Sun Ray. Therefor the >> decision cannot be made where to send to audio inside the kernel; the >> decision must be made outside OR a new mechanism will need to be defined. > >That is something that we are looking at doing, but we don't have >any firm plans in that are right now. I see a quagmire ahead of incompatible bits, some bundled some not. The ARC should be giving guidance on avoiding the issues. GNOME wanting to go OSS only (What limitations do exclusive use of Sun's /dev/audio compatibility give GNOME that the transition cannot be "/dev/audio only"?) Is this "GNOME" in the "world at large" or is this "GNOME at Sun"? Sun Ray needs to support multiple releases so it will need to support both /dev/audio and whatever OSS interfaces there are. What are the OSS interfaces which are public and why can't they work in much the same way as /tmp/....../audio devices? ($UTDEVROOT/dev/.....) Casper From casper@holland.sun.com Thu Jan 24 01:25:26 2008 Received: from sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m0O9PPwG003661 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 01:25:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m0O9PIlM010990; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 17:25:24 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JV500K07669D200@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 01:25:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from dm-holland-02.uk.sun.com ([129.156.101.225]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JV500CF96675B30@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 01:25:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from holland (room101.Holland.Sun.COM [10.16.117.40]) by dm-holland-02.uk.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m0O9PCK9003390; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 09:25:12 +0000 (GMT) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 10:25:12 +0100 From: Casper.Dik@sun.com Subject: Re: [Fwd: [Fwd: PSARC 2008/043 Phase 1 of OSS for Solaris]] In-reply-to: <4797DC13.2080901@sun.com> Sender: casper@holland.sun.com To: Brian Cameron Cc: Michael.Bender@sun.com, Robert Bartruff , audio-discuss@sun.com, Dev Mazumdar , Jerry.Wall@sun.com, psarc-ext@sun.com, Freeman.Liu@sun.com, Padu Iyer , Frank.Che@sun.com, Stephen.Uhler@sun.com Message-id: <200801240925.m0O9PCK9003390@dm-holland-02.uk.sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <4797969D.8030507@sun.com> <4797B533.50707@sun.com> <20080123222017.GI6591@Sun.COM> <200801232256.m0NMuTX0017610@dm-holland-02.uk.sun.com> <4797C750.5000404@sun.com> <4797D6D4.40507@sun.com> <4797D965.8040007@sun.com> <4797DC13.2080901@sun.com> Status: RO Content-Length: 225 >Yes, after discussion it became obvious we needed to support SADA >mainly for Sun Ray users. Thanks (and please ignore what else I wrote today on this matter; I should trust people more to have sense prevail). Casper From Freeman.Liu@sun.com Thu Jan 24 01:41:57 2008 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m0O9fuIF003774 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 01:41:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m0O9faNe021216; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 09:41:54 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JV500F036XT2L00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 02:41:53 -0700 (MST) Received: from sineb-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.19.7]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JV50074K6XSOV70@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 02:41:53 -0700 (MST) Received: from fe-apac-06.sun.com (fe-apac-06.sun.com [192.18.19.177] (may be forged)) by sineb-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m0O9fpX8006607; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 09:41:51 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.mail-apac.sun.com by mail-apac.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JV500J016QJHT00@mail-apac.sun.com> (original mail from Freeman.Liu@Sun.COM); Thu, 24 Jan 2008 17:41:51 +0800 (SGT) Received: from [129.150.144.28] by mail-apac.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JV500H986XPA17P@mail-apac.sun.com>; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 17:41:51 +0800 (SGT) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 17:41:48 +0800 From: Freeman Liu Subject: Re: 2008/043 [Phase 1 of OSS for Solaris] In-reply-to: <47977FC4.7030801@Sun.Com> Sender: Freeman.Liu@sun.com To: John Plocher Cc: Freeman Liu , James Carlson , Glenn Skinner , psarc-ext@sun.com, Frank.Che@sun.com, audio-discuss@sun.com Message-id: <47985D5C.6010809@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200801230058.m0N0wdGb022426@ivrel.sfbay.sun.com> <4796AB05.4030103@Sun.COM> <18327.12395.796235.851513@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4797504A.8020302@sun.com> <47977FC4.7030801@Sun.Com> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.8.1.11) Gecko/20071128 SeaMonkey/1.1.7 Status: RO Content-Length: 3670 Hi, all, I would like to make a summary of discussion of /dev/dsp issue and give the solution of project team. Sadasupport need an interface to access low-level driver. There are two options, one is to use /dev/private_dsp, the other is to use some one out of /dev dir, for example, an internal node or /devices node. Project team prefer the first one. I will analysis the risks and benefits to so. What's the risk to create a project private interface /dev/private_dsp? One concern is that it is possible that although project team promise to change it to /dev/dsp and promote its stability in following phases, things may change and it may be left there uncared in the future. Here I would like to say that /dev/dsp is one of the major interfaces of OSS, which is the goal of the whole project. I see no reason we need to worry about it. Another concern is that is may be leveraged by hackers. We have make /dev/private_dsp owned by root with 600 permission. Therefore there is little chance that weird user can do with it except verify its existence. Sane application will turn to SADA interface in this phase, which is the default, public interface. From these discussion, we can say safely that the risk is low. On the other hand, the advantage of this solution is that it is so simple and straight (which may make it less challenging ;)) for now and for future promotion. If both solution are of little risk, why dont we choose the simple one ? Thanks for all your thoughtful ideas. Best regards Freeman John Plocher wrote: > Freeman Liu wrote: >> Taking these applications into consideration, we can change the name >> to something else, for example, >> /dev/private_dsp, and it will be found by those applications. As for >> sadasupport, the change is trivial. >> And sadasupport is the only consumer of this device file in this phase. >> >> Do you think it a reasonable approach ? > > > If you intend to expose it in the future, but not today, > the question is whether you expect to change its behavior > between now and then? > > If not, then what is the "problem" you are protecting > users and developers from by restricting their access > today? > > If, in fact, the existence of /dev/dsp is effectively a > de-facto public committed interface in the OSS meta-community > today, then changing it incompatibly in phaseI seems wrong, > especially if you intend on re-exposing it under the de-facto > name in a later phase. > > (Note that the interface taxonomy levels do not equate > in any way to the idea of secrecy or inaccessibility, but > only to expectation setting advice about how much risk of > incompatible change you take on by depending on something) Having a /dev/dsp, which we don't really intend to "support", is IMO wrong, given the existence of "de-facto" standards. Publishing it under a different name might be a workaround, but as others have pointed out, you'll find people who write scripts to locate it, and then the funky "semi-private" name "evolves" into a new de-facto standard for Solaris. Urk. Better not to expose the name at all. The internal pathname approach is, IMO, far better. But it may have the same limitations that /dev nodes have, which is that they are physical paths rather than logical paths. A possible workaround is to use a pseudo-driver to provide the "logical" path. Another possible workaround is to just have the kernel components crawl the device tree looking for the physical path. Yet another is to create a "registry" where physical drivers can register their physical path so that the kernel consumers can find them. Which one of these is best will vary. -- Garrett From carlsonj@phorcys.east.sun.com Thu Jan 24 04:16:25 2008 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m0OCGOiq006035 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 04:16:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m0OCG68x026635; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 12:16:18 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JV500F1NE33AE00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 04:16:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com ([129.148.174.143]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JV500C1RE315HB0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 04:16:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.2+Sun/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m0OCGDxg010727; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 07:16:13 -0500 (EST) Received: (from carlsonj@localhost) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.2+Sun/8.14.2/Submit) id m0OCGDBg010724; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 07:16:13 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 07:16:12 -0500 From: James Carlson Subject: Re: [Fwd: [Fwd: PSARC 2008/043 Phase 1 of OSS for Solaris]] In-reply-to: <200801240908.m0O988Eu029278@dm-holland-02.uk.sun.com> To: Casper.Dik@sun.com Cc: Michael.Bender@sun.com, Nicolas Williams , Dev Mazumdar , Robert Bartruff , audio-discuss@sun.com, Jerry.Wall@sun.com, psarc-ext@sun.com, Freeman.Liu@sun.com, Padu Iyer , Frank.Che@sun.com, Stephen.Uhler@sun.com Message-id: <18328.33164.999448.101637@gargle.gargle.HOWL> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: VM 7.01 under Emacs 21.3.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <4797969D.8030507@sun.com> <4797B533.50707@sun.com> <20080123222017.GI6591@Sun.COM> <200801232256.m0NMuTX0017610@dm-holland-02.uk.sun.com> <4797C750.5000404@sun.com> <200801240908.m0O988Eu029278@dm-holland-02.uk.sun.com> Status: RO Content-Length: 813 Casper.Dik@Sun.COM writes: > Sun Ray needs to support multiple releases so it will need to > support both /dev/audio and whatever OSS interfaces there are. > > > What are the OSS interfaces which are public and why can't they work > in much the same way as /tmp/....../audio devices? In doing such a future project review, it would help immensely to have Sun Ray ARC cases that we could refer to for background information and to establish precedent. It would help to establish dependencies and boundaries on what future projects need to do. It's a shame we don't have those cases. -- James Carlson, Solaris Networking Sun Microsystems / 35 Network Drive 71.232W Vox +1 781 442 2084 MS UBUR02-212 / Burlington MA 01803-2757 42.496N Fax +1 781 442 1677 From stephen.uhler@sun.com Thu Jan 24 08:11:29 2008 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m0OGBSYi010028 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 08:11:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m0OGBMju006104 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:psarc-ext@Sun.COM>; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 16:11:28 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JV500E3HOZ2KZ00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for psarc-ext@Sun.COM (ORCPT psarc-ext@Sun.COM); Thu, 24 Jan 2008 08:11:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from gack.sfbay.sun.com ([129.146.74.65]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JV5000PCOZ10M90@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for psarc-ext@Sun.COM (ORCPT psarc-ext@Sun.COM); Thu, 24 Jan 2008 08:11:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from gack (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by gack.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m0OG4sve005580; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 08:04:54 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 08:04:54 -0800 From: Stephen Uhler Subject: Re: [Fwd: PSARC 2008/043 Phase 1 of OSS for Solaris] In-reply-to: "Your message of Wed, 23 Jan 2008 19:01:51 PST." <4797FF9F.10006@opensound.com> To: Dev Mazumdar Cc: psarc-ext@sun.com Reply-to: stephen.uhler@sun.com Message-id: <200801241604.m0OG4sve005580@gack.sfbay.sun.com> Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 Status: RO Content-Length: 1730 >>>Dev Mazumdar said: > > Hi Stephen, > > We have asked you for the source code to your apps so that we can study > them and see how they can modified to run on top of OSS. We just got > from Margot were some sample programs (attached) which seem to be TCL > based - the code doesn't seem to compile since there's no TCL sources or > headers on the standard Solaris. We would love to see what special > technique you have implemented in the software. You can get the proper sample code (I sent Margo) from: http://sau.homeip.net/software/sadtcl1.0.tar.gz It should build and run on Solaris 9/10/11, which includes the proper TCL headers (although tcl moved from /usr/sfw/bin to /usr/bin recently). > > There are TCL bindings for OSS see the Snack TCL/Tk toolkit: > http://www.speech.kth.se/snack/ > > Apps like Skype, games like Quake and Doom, DVD players like Mplayer and > Xine have absolutely no latency or synch problems running on OSS on > Linux or Solaris. Asterix was originally developed on top of OSS. > > You are basing your impressions of OSS from 1990s and it's totally > unfair to compare those old open source implementations with OSS v4.0. You are correct. The apps, and the underlying toolkits were built in the 90's, which is when I wrote these apps, and tried to make them work on Linux/OSS. It's a tribute to Solaris that they have continued to work, virtually unchanged, for 15 years. Perhaps my concerns are no longer valid, and I (and many other OSS users from the old days) need to be better educated. > If we do have shortcomings in Open Sound, let's look at the code > together and help fix the problems. I'd be delighted to help with that. Contact me offline. Stephen Stephen From Frank.Che@sun.com Fri Feb 1 01:39:23 2008 Received: from sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m119dMkG025856 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2008 01:39:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m119cr8J001598; Fri, 1 Feb 2008 17:39:20 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JVK00E0705I8000@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Fri, 01 Feb 2008 01:39:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from sineb-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.19.7]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JVK002D605HMOD0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Fri, 01 Feb 2008 01:39:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from fe-apac-06.sun.com (fe-apac-06.sun.com [192.18.19.177] (may be forged)) by sineb-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m119dIpd004291; Fri, 01 Feb 2008 09:39:18 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.mail-apac.sun.com by mail-apac.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JVJ00801ZYIYA00@mail-apac.sun.com> (original mail from Frank.Che@Sun.COM) ; Fri, 01 Feb 2008 17:39:16 +0800 (SGT) Received: from [129.158.218.60] by mail-apac.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JVK0074M05FBQ4P@mail-apac.sun.com>; Fri, 01 Feb 2008 17:39:16 +0800 (SGT) Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2008 17:35:53 +0800 From: Frank Che Subject: Re: PSARC 2008/043 Phase 1 of OSS for Solaris In-reply-to: <47941220.6050702@sun.com> Sender: Frank.Che@sun.com To: Frank Che Cc: PSARC-ext@sun.com, Freeman.Liu@sun.com, audio-discuss@sun.com Message-id: <47A2E7F9.5040108@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en-us, en X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <47941220.6050702@sun.com> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; SunOS i86pc; en-US; rv:1.7) Gecko/20060627 Status: RO Content-Length: 436 This case was closed approved in last PSARC meeting. Material was updated and saved as 'spec.txt' in case directory. In the updated material, interface name '/dev/dsp' was changed to '/dev/private_dsp' so that users won't stumble into it purely by accident as a consequence of using a famous path name. A new paragraph was added to explain there will be no regression on SPARC and Sun x86 platforms on power management. Frank. From gww@eng.sun.com Fri Feb 1 15:53:16 2008 Received: from newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (newsunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.245]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m11NrGiJ026881 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2008 15:53:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m11NrFKE028892; Fri, 1 Feb 2008 16:53:16 -0700 (MST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JVL0031H3ORE700@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Fri, 01 Feb 2008 15:53:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from dm-eng-02.sfbay.sun.com ([129.146.11.32]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JVL00LDA3OR6A20@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Fri, 01 Feb 2008 15:53:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from marduk.eng.sun.com (marduk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.108.224]) by dm-eng-02.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m11NrDag031068; Fri, 01 Feb 2008 15:53:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from marduk.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by marduk.eng.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m11NpnxJ012829; Fri, 01 Feb 2008 15:51:49 -0800 (PST) Received: (from gww@localhost) by marduk.eng.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.11/Submit) id m11Npnua012828; Fri, 01 Feb 2008 15:51:49 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2008 15:51:49 -0800 (PST) From: Gary Winiger Subject: Re: PSARC 2008/043 Phase 1 of OSS for Solaris To: Frank.Che@sun.com Cc: PSARC-ext@sun.com, Freeman.Liu@sun.com, audio-discuss@sun.com Message-id: <200802012351.m11Npnua012828@marduk.eng.sun.com> Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 Status: RO Content-Length: 775 > This case was closed approved in last PSARC meeting. > > Material was updated and saved as 'spec.txt' in case directory. In the > updated material, interface name '/dev/dsp' was changed to > '/dev/private_dsp' so that users won't stumble into it purely by ^^^^^^^^^^^ Was that really agreed to by the committee? I thought it was a proposal by the project team. And the suggestion was to not expose things that can't be used but if exposure was necessary for code complexity reasons the expected name was reasonable to expose. Did I completely miss the committee's thrust? Gary.. > accident as a consequence of using a famous path name. A new paragraph > was added to explain there will be no regression on SPARC and Sun x86 > platforms on power management. From carlsonj@phorcys.east.sun.com Mon Feb 4 05:35:58 2008 Received: from sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m14DZvDc000406 for ; Mon, 4 Feb 2008 05:35:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m14DZfmt015370; Mon, 4 Feb 2008 21:35:56 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JVP00K03V3VSG00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Mon, 04 Feb 2008 06:35:55 -0700 (MST) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com ([129.148.174.143]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JVP00D9QV3UB960@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Mon, 04 Feb 2008 06:35:54 -0700 (MST) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.2+Sun/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m14DZrjp008313; Mon, 04 Feb 2008 08:35:53 -0500 (EST) Received: (from carlsonj@localhost) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.2+Sun/8.14.2/Submit) id m14DZrJU008310; Mon, 04 Feb 2008 08:35:53 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2008 08:35:53 -0500 From: James Carlson Subject: Re: PSARC 2008/043 Phase 1 of OSS for Solaris In-reply-to: <200802012351.m11Npnua012828@marduk.eng.sun.com> To: Gary Winiger Cc: Frank.Che@sun.com, PSARC-ext@sun.com, Freeman.Liu@sun.com, audio-discuss@sun.com Message-id: <18343.5305.445881.199849@gargle.gargle.HOWL> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: VM 7.01 under Emacs 21.3.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200802012351.m11Npnua012828@marduk.eng.sun.com> Status: RO Content-Length: 1150 Gary Winiger writes: > > This case was closed approved in last PSARC meeting. > > > > Material was updated and saved as 'spec.txt' in case directory. In the > > updated material, interface name '/dev/dsp' was changed to > > '/dev/private_dsp' so that users won't stumble into it purely by > ^^^^^^^^^^^ > Was that really agreed to by the committee? I thought it was > a proposal by the project team. And the suggestion was to > not expose things that can't be used but if exposure was necessary > for code complexity reasons the expected name was reasonable to > expose. > Did I completely miss the committee's thrust? We agreed that as long as it was kept reasonably out of harm's way until the stability is firmed up, we didn't much care how that was done. I had assumed that meant "private_dsp," as Garrett said during ARC business that he wasn't wild about the decision but that it wasn't enough to belabor. -- James Carlson, Solaris Networking Sun Microsystems / 35 Network Drive 71.232W Vox +1 781 442 2084 MS UBUR02-212 / Burlington MA 01803-2757 42.496N Fax +1 781 442 1677 From gww@eng.sun.com Mon Feb 4 07:48:33 2008 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m14FmW3k003194 for ; Mon, 4 Feb 2008 07:48:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m14Fm5G3016961; Mon, 4 Feb 2008 15:48:32 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JVQ00J0L18VBY00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Mon, 04 Feb 2008 07:48:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from dm-eng-02.sfbay.sun.com ([129.146.11.32]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JVQ004M718TX480@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Mon, 04 Feb 2008 07:48:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from marduk.eng.sun.com (marduk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.108.224]) by dm-eng-02.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m14FmR6Q002102; Mon, 04 Feb 2008 07:48:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from marduk.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by marduk.eng.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m14Fkxs6014376; Mon, 04 Feb 2008 07:46:59 -0800 (PST) Received: (from gww@localhost) by marduk.eng.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.11/Submit) id m14Fkxjj014375; Mon, 04 Feb 2008 07:46:59 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2008 07:46:59 -0800 (PST) From: Gary Winiger Subject: Re: PSARC 2008/043 Phase 1 of OSS for Solaris To: gww@eng.sun.com, james.d.carlson@sun.com Cc: Frank.Che@sun.com, PSARC-ext@sun.com, Freeman.Liu@sun.com, audio-discuss@sun.com Message-id: <200802041546.m14Fkxjj014375@marduk.eng.sun.com> Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 Status: RO Content-Length: 456 > > Did I completely miss the committee's thrust? > > We agreed that as long as it was kept reasonably out of harm's way > until the stability is firmed up, we didn't much care how that was > done. > > I had assumed that meant "private_dsp," as Garrett said during ARC > business that he wasn't wild about the decision but that it wasn't > enough to belabor. OK fine. I missed that and didn't find anything in the case log of a conclusion. Gary.. From gdamore@sun.com Mon Feb 4 08:46:37 2008 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m14Gkb8v007100 for ; Mon, 4 Feb 2008 08:46:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m14GkaEN000980; Mon, 4 Feb 2008 08:46:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JVQ001153XL0100@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Mon, 04 Feb 2008 08:46:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from sca-es-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.43.132]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JVQ0045X3XIXAD0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Mon, 04 Feb 2008 08:46:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from fe-sfbay-09.sun.com ([192.18.43.129]) by sca-es-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m14GkUW6017150; Mon, 04 Feb 2008 08:46:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from conversion-daemon.fe-sfbay-09.sun.com by fe-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0JVQ0040135J6D00@fe-sfbay-09.sun.com> (original mail from gdamore@sun.com) ; Mon, 04 Feb 2008 08:46:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.251.106] ([76.174.83.55]) by fe-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0JVQ001BO3XBQGG0@fe-sfbay-09.sun.com>; Mon, 04 Feb 2008 08:46:28 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2008 08:45:24 -0800 From: "Garrett D'Amore" Subject: Re: PSARC 2008/043 Phase 1 of OSS for Solaris In-reply-to: <18343.5305.445881.199849@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Sender: Garrett.Damore@sun.com To: James Carlson Cc: Gary Winiger , Frank.Che@sun.com, PSARC-ext@sun.com, Freeman.Liu@sun.com, audio-discuss@sun.com Message-id: <47A74124.5060106@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <200802012351.m11Npnua012828@marduk.eng.sun.com> <18343.5305.445881.199849@gargle.gargle.HOWL> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (X11/20071023) Status: RO Content-Length: 1119 James Carlson wrote: > Gary Winiger writes: > >>> This case was closed approved in last PSARC meeting. >>> >>> Material was updated and saved as 'spec.txt' in case directory. In the >>> updated material, interface name '/dev/dsp' was changed to >>> '/dev/private_dsp' so that users won't stumble into it purely by >>> >> ^^^^^^^^^^^ >> Was that really agreed to by the committee? I thought it was >> a proposal by the project team. And the suggestion was to >> not expose things that can't be used but if exposure was necessary >> for code complexity reasons the expected name was reasonable to >> expose. >> Did I completely miss the committee's thrust? >> > > We agreed that as long as it was kept reasonably out of harm's way > until the stability is firmed up, we didn't much care how that was > done. > > I had assumed that meant "private_dsp," as Garrett said during ARC > business that he wasn't wild about the decision but that it wasn't > enough to belabor. > Right. Its fine for now. I look forward to having a real, supported /dev/dsp in a future phase. :-) -- Garrett