From danek.duvall@sun.com Tue Mar 4 13:46:44 2008 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m24LkhJw029178 for ; Tue, 4 Mar 2008 13:46:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m24Lkhjd018467 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:psarc-ext@sun.com>; Tue, 4 Mar 2008 13:46:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JX800L0175V5300@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Tue, 04 Mar 2008 13:46:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from dm-sfbay-02.sfbay.sun.com ([129.146.11.31]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JX800DLE75VH1C0@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Tue, 04 Mar 2008 13:46:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from zruty.sfbay.sun.com (zruty.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.168.40]) by dm-sfbay-02.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m24Lkh8M038826 for ; Tue, 04 Mar 2008 13:46:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from zruty.sfbay.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zruty.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.2+Sun/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m24LkgW5017698 for ; Tue, 04 Mar 2008 13:46:42 -0800 (PST) Received: (from dduvall@localhost) by zruty.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.2+Sun/8.14.2/Submit) id m24LkgE7017697 for psarc-ext@sun.com; Tue, 04 Mar 2008 13:46:42 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2008 13:46:42 -0800 From: Danek Duvall Subject: Nethack 3.4.3 [PSARC/2008/172 FastTrack timeout 03/11/2008] To: psarc-ext@sun.com Message-id: <20080304214642.GB9130@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.16 (2007-06-27) Status: RO Content-Length: 2395 I'm sponsoring this case for myself. It should qualify for patch binding, though I currently have no intent on delivering in a patch. The proposal is in the case directory as proposal.txt; the man page is in materials/nethack.6. ====================================================================== 1. Summary Nethack[1] is a terminal-based game, based on rogue, in which your character descends through a dungeon to fight monsters, gain experience, and eventually capture the Amulet of Yendor and sacrifice it on the altar of your god in the Astral Plane. 2. Issues 2.1 Setgid "games" The only inherently interesting issue is that nethack games leave files behind that are intended to be shared by multiple players. This includes a shared scoreboard, a logfile, a saved-games directory, and "bones" files (remains of characters who have died). These are best shared so that one can compare one's score with others and dig through their bones piles. If these files are put in a directory open to being written by the world, it only really affects nethack, but it means it's easy for players to cheat -- by restoring saved games, manipulating bones files, and so on -- and even to annoy other players. Thus I'm proposing the addition of a unix group dedicated to games, that the shared directory be owned by group "games", and that nethack be installed setgid "games". This allows users to be unable to manipulate these files except through nethack itself. Any exploits that might be possible through this minimal "privilege elevation" would be limited only to the contents of /var/games, which is ultimately of limited value to the system. 2.2 Historical UNIX gaming I'm proposing to re-introduce section 6 of the manual -- thus nethack(6). However, I'm not proposing to re-introduce /usr/games, as that violates serendipitous discovery, and doesn't seem to add any value to the system. 3. Interfaces /usr/bin/nethack Uncommitted Executable location, CLI /usr/lib/nethack Project Private Game data directory /var/games Committed Writeable area for games /var/games/nethack Uncommitted Writeable area for nethack games Committed group name 4. References 1 http://www.nethack.org/ From sacadmin Tue Mar 4 13:41:25 2008 Received: from zruty.sfbay.sun.com (zruty [129.146.168.40]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m24LfPJx029025; Tue, 4 Mar 2008 13:41:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from zruty.sfbay.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zruty.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.2+Sun/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m24LfPHN017646; Tue, 4 Mar 2008 13:41:25 -0800 (PST) Received: (from dduvall@localhost) by zruty.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.2+Sun/8.14.2/Submit) id m24LfOW1017642; Tue, 4 Mar 2008 13:41:25 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 13:41:25 -0800 (PST) From: Danek Duvall Message-Id: <200803042141.m24LfOW1017642@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> To: PSARC-record@sac.sfbay.sun.com Subject: Nethack 3.4.3 [PSARC/2008/172 FastTrack timeout 03/11/2008] Status: RO Content-Length: 548 Template Version: @(#)sac_nextcase 1.64 07/13/07 SMI This information is Copyright 2008 Sun Microsystems 1. Introduction 1.1. Project/Component Working Name: Nethack 3.4.3 1.2. Name of Document Author/Supplier: Author: Danek Duvall 1.3 Date of This Document: 04 March, 2008 4. Technical Description See the case directory for more detail 6. Resources and Schedule 6.4. Steering Committee requested information 6.4.1. Consolidation C-team Name: SFW 6.5. ARC review type: FastTrack 6.6. ARC Exposure: open From Sebastien.Roy@sun.com Wed Mar 5 07:56:26 2008 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m25FuQxr029020 for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2008 07:56:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m25FuE26009944 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:psarc-ext@sun.com>; Wed, 5 Mar 2008 07:56:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JX90021FLM0V900@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 05 Mar 2008 07:56:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com ([192.18.98.36]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JX90026QLLZNX00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 05 Mar 2008 07:56:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from fe-amer-09.sun.com ([192.18.109.79]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m25FuNFd019234 for ; Wed, 05 Mar 2008 15:56:23 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.mail-amer.sun.com by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0JX900L01KUIW800@mail-amer.sun.com> (original mail from Sebastien.Roy@Sun.COM) for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 05 Mar 2008 08:56:23 -0700 (MST) Received: from [129.148.174.103] by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0JX9009L8LLQQAE0@mail-amer.sun.com>; Wed, 05 Mar 2008 08:56:15 -0700 (MST) Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2008 10:56:14 -0500 From: Sebastien Roy Subject: Re: Nethack 3.4.3 [PSARC/2008/172 FastTrack timeout 03/11/2008] In-reply-to: <20080304214642.GB9130@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> Sender: Sebastien.Roy@sun.com To: Danek Duvall Cc: PSARC-ext@sun.com Message-id: <47CEC29E.5070903@sun.com> Organization: Sun Microsystems MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <20080304214642.GB9130@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (X11/20080115) Status: RO Content-Length: 529 Danek Duvall wrote: > 1. Summary > > Nethack[1] is a terminal-based game, based on rogue, in which your > character descends through a dungeon to fight monsters, gain experience, > and eventually capture the Amulet of Yendor and sacrifice it on the altar > of your god in the Astral Plane. I'm glad there someone in the OpenSolaris community finally doing some important work. ;-) Nethack evidently supports Gnome and other windowing systems. Are you delivering a nethack with more than just TTY "graphics" enabled? -Seb From alan.coopersmith@sun.com Wed Mar 5 08:39:07 2008 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m25Gd7U8001268 for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2008 08:39:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m25Gcxxs027269; Wed, 5 Mar 2008 08:39:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JX90020PNL47N00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 05 Mar 2008 08:39:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from sfbaymail1sca.SFBay.Sun.COM ([129.145.154.35]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JX900KV8NL3PYA0@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 05 Mar 2008 08:39:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.0.101] (vpn-129-150-16-206.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.16.206]) by sfbaymail1sca.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m25Gd0Ab028710; Wed, 05 Mar 2008 08:39:02 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2008 08:38:53 -0800 From: Alan Coopersmith Subject: Re: Nethack 3.4.3 [PSARC/2008/172 FastTrack timeout 03/11/2008] In-reply-to: <20080304214642.GB9130@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> To: Danek Duvall Cc: psarc-ext@sun.com, gnome222-arc@sun.com Message-id: <47CECC9D.9060402@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <20080304214642.GB9130@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (X11/20060602) Status: RO Content-Length: 857 Danek Duvall wrote: > 2.1 Setgid "games" > > Thus I'm proposing the addition of a unix group dedicated to games, > that the shared directory be owned by group "games", and that nethack > be installed setgid "games". This allows users to be unable to > manipulate these files except through nethack itself. Any exploits > that might be possible through this minimal "privilege elevation" would > be limited only to the contents of /var/games, which is ultimately of > limited value to the system. As a follow-on, the next round of GNOME LSARC cases should probably switch to using the games group for their games as well, instead of the "staff" group specified in LSARC/2002/401 for games high-score files. -- -Alan Coopersmith- alan.coopersmith@sun.com Sun Microsystems, Inc. - X Window System Engineering From danek.duvall@sun.com Wed Mar 5 09:09:53 2008 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m25H9qRg002510 for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2008 09:09:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m25H9Mok003111 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-ext@Sun.COM>; Wed, 5 Mar 2008 17:09:51 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JX90092FP0D9600@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for PSARC-ext@Sun.COM (ORCPT PSARC-ext@Sun.COM); Wed, 05 Mar 2008 09:09:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from dm-sfbay-01.sfbay.sun.com ([129.145.155.118]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JX9002DOP06NP80@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for PSARC-ext@Sun.COM (ORCPT PSARC-ext@Sun.COM); Wed, 05 Mar 2008 09:09:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from zruty.sfbay.sun.com (zruty.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.168.40]) by dm-sfbay-01.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m25H9fLm050393; Wed, 05 Mar 2008 09:09:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from zruty.sfbay.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zruty.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.2+Sun/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m25H9fQO023006; Wed, 05 Mar 2008 09:09:41 -0800 (PST) Received: (from dduvall@localhost) by zruty.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.2+Sun/8.14.2/Submit) id m25H9fS0023005; Wed, 05 Mar 2008 09:09:41 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2008 09:09:41 -0800 From: Danek Duvall Subject: Re: Nethack 3.4.3 [PSARC/2008/172 FastTrack timeout 03/11/2008] In-reply-to: <47CEC29E.5070903@sun.com> To: Sebastien Roy Cc: PSARC-ext@sun.com Message-id: <20080305170941.GL9130@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <20080304214642.GB9130@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <47CEC29E.5070903@sun.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.16 (2007-06-27) Status: RO Content-Length: 699 On Wed, Mar 05, 2008 at 10:56:14AM -0500, Sebastien Roy wrote: > I'm glad there someone in the OpenSolaris community finally doing some > important work. ;-) No kidding. We've been wasting so much time! > Nethack evidently supports Gnome and other windowing systems. Are you > delivering a nethack with more than just TTY "graphics" enabled? I had not planned on it. I've always considered the GUI bits to be incredibly lame. If you want Diablo, buy Diablo (or another 2.5D game which has much better graphics and sound). I'd also hate to have a dependency on graphics libraries for those people who want to install nethack on their wireless router. ;-) Danek (Neutral Human Male Monk) From danek.duvall@sun.com Wed Mar 5 09:16:09 2008 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m25HG8RZ003269 for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2008 09:16:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m25HG2Vl006471; Wed, 5 Mar 2008 17:16:08 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JX90061HPAUJ100@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 05 Mar 2008 10:16:06 -0700 (MST) Received: from dm-sfbay-02.sfbay.sun.com ([129.146.11.31]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JX900D36PATP1D0@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 05 Mar 2008 10:16:06 -0700 (MST) Received: from zruty.sfbay.sun.com (zruty.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.168.40]) by dm-sfbay-02.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m25HG5Ob029993; Wed, 05 Mar 2008 09:16:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from zruty.sfbay.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zruty.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.2+Sun/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m25HG5C1023163; Wed, 05 Mar 2008 09:16:05 -0800 (PST) Received: (from dduvall@localhost) by zruty.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.2+Sun/8.14.2/Submit) id m25HG5QM023162; Wed, 05 Mar 2008 09:16:05 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2008 09:16:05 -0800 From: Danek Duvall Subject: Re: Nethack 3.4.3 [PSARC/2008/172 FastTrack timeout 03/11/2008] In-reply-to: <47CECC9D.9060402@sun.com> To: Alan Coopersmith Cc: psarc-ext@sun.com, gnome222-arc@sun.com Message-id: <20080305171605.GM9130@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <20080304214642.GB9130@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <47CECC9D.9060402@sun.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.16 (2007-06-27) Status: RO Content-Length: 607 On Wed, Mar 05, 2008 at 08:38:53AM -0800, Alan Coopersmith wrote: > As a follow-on, the next round of GNOME LSARC cases should probably > switch to using the games group for their games as well, instead of > the "staff" group specified in LSARC/2002/401 for games high-score files. Ah, I'd been looking for that. But after noticing that the gnome games don't *actually* seem to record their scores anywhere, and strings on some of the games indicate they may be trying to store them under /usr/var/games, it seemed like that was just incredibly broken, and that a sane place needed to be created. Danek From bart.smaalders@sun.com Wed Mar 5 09:26:50 2008 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m25HQojB004472 for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2008 09:26:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m25HQcG5011665; Wed, 5 Mar 2008 17:26:46 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JX90041LPSK4700@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 05 Mar 2008 09:26:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from zion.sfbay.sun.com ([129.146.17.75]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JX900KODPSJPYE0@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 05 Mar 2008 09:26:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from [129.146.228.109] (cyber.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.228.109]) by zion.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.2+Sun/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m25HQg5q406930; Wed, 05 Mar 2008 17:26:42 +0000 (GMT) Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2008 09:31:45 -0800 From: Bart Smaalders Subject: Re: Nethack 3.4.3 [PSARC/2008/172 FastTrack timeout 03/11/2008] In-reply-to: <47CEC29E.5070903@sun.com> To: Sebastien Roy Cc: Danek Duvall , PSARC-ext@sun.com Message-id: <47CED901.5090907@Sun.COM> Organization: Sun Microsystems MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <20080304214642.GB9130@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <47CEC29E.5070903@sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (X11/20080201) Status: RO Content-Length: 739 Sebastien Roy wrote: > Danek Duvall wrote: >> 1. Summary >> >> Nethack[1] is a terminal-based game, based on rogue, in which your >> character descends through a dungeon to fight monsters, gain experience, >> and eventually capture the Amulet of Yendor and sacrifice it on the altar >> of your god in the Astral Plane. > > I'm glad there someone in the OpenSolaris community finally doing some > important work. ;-) > Many of us old timers rue the day they took our games, fortune files and compiler away back in Solaris 2.0... we're fixing it bit by bit :-). - Bart -- Bart Smaalders Solaris Kernel Performance barts@cyber.eng.sun.com http://blogs.sun.com/barts "You will contribute more with mercurial than with thunderbird." From danek.duvall@sun.com Wed Mar 5 10:41:36 2008 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m25IfasD011146 for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2008 10:41:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m25IfZZX008217 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:psarc-ext@sun.com>; Wed, 5 Mar 2008 10:41:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JX900C0RT9BZG00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 05 Mar 2008 11:41:35 -0700 (MST) Received: from dm-sfbay-02.sfbay.sun.com ([129.146.11.31]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JX900805T9AZG50@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 05 Mar 2008 11:41:34 -0700 (MST) Received: from zruty.sfbay.sun.com (zruty.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.168.40]) by dm-sfbay-02.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m25IfYlX037887 for ; Wed, 05 Mar 2008 10:41:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from zruty.sfbay.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zruty.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.2+Sun/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m25IfYNu024262 for ; Wed, 05 Mar 2008 10:41:34 -0800 (PST) Received: (from dduvall@localhost) by zruty.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.2+Sun/8.14.2/Submit) id m25IfXrL024261 for psarc-ext@sun.com; Wed, 05 Mar 2008 10:41:33 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2008 10:41:33 -0800 From: Danek Duvall Subject: Re: Nethack 3.4.3 [PSARC/2008/172 FastTrack timeout 03/11/2008] In-reply-to: <20080304214642.GB9130@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> To: psarc-ext@sun.com Message-id: <20080305184133.GQ9130@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <20080304214642.GB9130@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.16 (2007-06-27) Status: RO Content-Length: 48 This was approved at PSARC this morning. Danek From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Mar 5 21:08:38 2008 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m2658bnP002853 for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2008 21:08:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m2658TTs023280; Thu, 6 Mar 2008 05:08:35 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JXA00E0RMA7D300@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 05 Mar 2008 21:08:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com ([129.146.17.59]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JXA009FMMA6K910@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 05 Mar 2008 21:08:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from snowdog (snowdog.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.228.213]) by jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.2+Sun/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m2658Udo901445; Wed, 05 Mar 2008 21:08:30 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2008 21:14:48 -0800 From: Dan Price Subject: Re: Nethack 3.4.3 [PSARC/2008/172 FastTrack timeout 03/11/2008] In-reply-to: <20080305184133.GQ9130@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> To: Danek Duvall Cc: psarc-ext@sun.com Message-id: <20080306051448.GA9555@eng.sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <20080304214642.GB9130@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <20080305184133.GQ9130@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i Status: RO Content-Length: 790 On Wed 05 Mar 2008 at 10:41AM, Danek Duvall wrote: > This was approved at PSARC this morning. Umm... less than 24 hours available to comment? I for one would like to see the X11 options turned on in the build. I have a hard time (brain too old) remembering that "f" means "your cat". The X11 GUI is very simple, and has, IIRC, minimal dependencies, but makes a world of difference for people trying to learn the game. There is also a gnome gui but I was not able to get it to build the last time I tried. It'd be really great if both versions were available. I'd be happy to try to help out, if development cycles are the issue. Also, are you proposing a general potion-mixing architecture here? -dp -- Daniel Price - Solaris Kernel Engineering - dp@eng.sun.com - blogs.sun.com/dp From danek.duvall@sun.com Wed Mar 5 23:06:48 2008 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m2676l37005287 for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2008 23:06:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m2676iX9000270 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:psarc-ext@sun.com>; Thu, 6 Mar 2008 07:06:46 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JXA00403RRAII00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 05 Mar 2008 23:06:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from dm-sfbay-02.sfbay.sun.com ([129.146.11.31]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JXA009JHRRAK950@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 05 Mar 2008 23:06:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from zruty.sfbay.sun.com (zruty.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.168.40]) by dm-sfbay-02.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m2676jo7029956; Wed, 05 Mar 2008 23:06:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from zruty.sfbay.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zruty.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.2+Sun/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m2676jqh000913; Wed, 05 Mar 2008 23:06:45 -0800 (PST) Received: (from dduvall@localhost) by zruty.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.2+Sun/8.14.2/Submit) id m2676jrQ000912; Wed, 05 Mar 2008 23:06:45 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2008 23:06:45 -0800 From: Danek Duvall Subject: Re: Nethack 3.4.3 [PSARC/2008/172 FastTrack timeout 03/11/2008] In-reply-to: <20080306051448.GA9555@eng.sun.com> To: Dan Price Cc: psarc-ext@sun.com Message-id: <20080306070645.GQ296@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <20080304214642.GB9130@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <20080305184133.GQ9130@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <20080306051448.GA9555@eng.sun.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.16 (2007-06-27) Status: RO Content-Length: 2170 On Wed, Mar 05, 2008 at 09:14:48PM -0800, Dan Price wrote: > Umm... less than 24 hours available to comment? I'm happy to let it run if you think there are architectural issues to discuss. The consensus was that there weren't, but it's conceivable we were wrong. :) I also expect to be waiting some time for legal approval, so if there are issues, there's time before integration to raise them. > I for one would like to see the X11 options turned on in the build. > I have a hard time (brain too old) remembering that "f" means "your cat". Yeah, I bet you can't read the pictures in The Matrix, either. Perhaps if you played more -- maybe four or five hours a day -- it would sink in a bit more. ;-) > The X11 GUI is very simple, and has, IIRC, minimal dependencies, but > makes a world of difference for people trying to learn the game. > There is also a gnome gui but I was not able to get it to build the > last time I tried. It'd be really great if both versions were available. > I'd be happy to try to help out, if development cycles are the issue. I doubt it would take much time, honestly. I just never believed that the GUIs were useful, or pretty. Like I said to one commenter, if you want to play Diablo, play Diablo (and we should see if that's remotely possible under virtualbox) -- it's a much better experience. I don't think this is an architectural issue (I'm not really that concerned about putting nethack on systems where X has been minimized out), so I suggest we can take it offline. If there are other folks who really want a GUI for this, lemme know privately. > Also, are you proposing a general potion-mixing architecture here? No. The potions in nethack, sadly, aren't compliant with the latest potion RFCs (I forget the numbers offhand), so it's kinda off in the weeds in that regard. You won't be able to import nethack bones files, say, into GIMP in order to use a paintbrush dipped in a potion of hallucination. There are simply better ways to get that effect. And forget scroll sharing -- Google has made the once-expensive scroll of magic mapping dirt cheap, but the shopkeepers still jack up the zorkmids. Danek From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Mar 6 08:46:43 2008 Received: from sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m26GkgKE021829 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2008 08:46:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m26GkNdp019644; Fri, 7 Mar 2008 00:46:40 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JXB00J0BILPAF00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Thu, 06 Mar 2008 08:46:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com ([129.146.17.59]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JXB00IJYILPUV00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Thu, 06 Mar 2008 08:46:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from snowdog (snowdog.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.228.213]) by jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.2+Sun/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m26GkaI8961439; Thu, 06 Mar 2008 08:46:36 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2008 08:53:00 -0800 From: Dan Price Subject: Re: Nethack 3.4.3 [PSARC/2008/172 FastTrack timeout 03/11/2008] In-reply-to: <20080306070645.GQ296@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> To: Danek Duvall Cc: psarc-ext@sun.com Message-id: <20080306165252.GB9555@eng.sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <20080304214642.GB9130@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <20080305184133.GQ9130@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <20080306051448.GA9555@eng.sun.com> <20080306070645.GQ296@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i Status: RO Content-Length: 1453 On Wed 05 Mar 2008 at 11:06PM, Danek Duvall wrote: > I doubt it would take much time, honestly. I just never believed that the > GUIs were useful, or pretty. Like I said to one commenter, if you want to > play Diablo, play Diablo (and we should see if that's remotely possible > under virtualbox) -- it's a much better experience. No, I don't want to play Diablo... it's not part of my adolescent games reminiscence. > I don't think this is an architectural issue (I'm not really that concerned > about putting nethack on systems where X has been minimized out), so I > suggest we can take it offline. If there are other folks who really want a > GUI for this, lemme know privately. Well, you're registering pathnames with the ARC, so I thought it appropriate. > > Also, are you proposing a general potion-mixing architecture here? > > No. The potions in nethack, sadly, aren't compliant with the latest potion > RFCs (I forget the numbers offhand), so it's kinda off in the weeds in that > regard. You won't be able to import nethack bones files, say, into GIMP in > order to use a paintbrush dipped in a potion of hallucination. There are > simply better ways to get that effect. And forget scroll sharing -- Google > has made the once-expensive scroll of magic mapping dirt cheap, but the > shopkeepers still jack up the zorkmids. Elbereth! -dp -- Daniel Price - Solaris Kernel Engineering - dp@eng.sun.com - blogs.sun.com/dp From jek3@sun.com Fri Mar 7 13:58:34 2008 Received: from sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m27LwX5n016805 for ; Fri, 7 Mar 2008 13:58:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m27LwTKU015201; Sat, 8 Mar 2008 05:58:30 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JXD00M03RPG2T00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Fri, 07 Mar 2008 14:58:28 -0700 (MST) Received: from jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com ([129.146.17.59]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JXD00L8YRPFZA00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Fri, 07 Mar 2008 14:58:27 -0700 (MST) Received: from [129.150.13.200] (vpn-129-150-13-200.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.13.200]) by jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.2+Sun/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m27LwQK0258198; Fri, 07 Mar 2008 13:58:27 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2008 11:56:09 -1000 From: Joseph Kowalski Subject: Re: Nethack 3.4.3 [PSARC/2008/172 FastTrack timeout 03/11/2008] In-reply-to: <20080304214642.GB9130@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> To: Danek Duvall Cc: psarc-ext@sun.com Message-id: <47D1B9F9.1090307@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <20080304214642.GB9130@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (X11/20071119) Status: RO Content-Length: 1842 OK, this is approved, so this is just a comment. I'm also not questioning if this should be included or not (but if it is included as a throwback to old UNIX nostalgia, where is "fortune"? :-) ) Danek Duvall wrote: > 3. Interfaces > > /usr/bin/nethack Uncommitted Executable location, CLI > /usr/lib/nethack Project Private Game data directory > /var/games Committed Writeable area for games > /var/games/nethack Uncommitted Writeable area for nethack > games Committed group name > From filesystem(5): /usr/games An empty directory, a remnant of the SunOS 4.0/4.1 software. So, /usr/games is an imported interface, abet with a lame semantic. That's however somewhat the nit of all nits. Now, if I remember right (and I may not), this was the "bin" equivalent for games. If that's true, shouldn't this be place for nethack, the executable? If that doesn't convince you, perhaps the fact that the place this is found on Linux (specifically Ubuntu) is /usr/games. Aren't we supposed to be *all* about compatibility (when possible) with Linux? As an aside, I was rather surprised about all the variants of nethack available on Ubuntu's repository. EMACs, lisp, qt, X11, gnome,... just to name a few. I was disappointed to find out that jnethack was the Japanese version rather than a Java version. Anyway, in the interest of Linux compatibility I'd encourage the project team to follow that (somewhat big) rule. (Note: Ubuntu has no /usr/bin/foo -> ../games/foo links. Ignore the fact that /usr/games seems to be in the default path.) I didn't look where Ubuntu (et.al.) places hethack datafiles and such. Where ever they place them, we should just do the same. - thanks for listening, - jek3 From danek.duvall@sun.com Fri Mar 7 14:09:39 2008 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m27M9dpP016930 for ; Fri, 7 Mar 2008 14:09:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m27M9dqb019213; Fri, 7 Mar 2008 14:09:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JXD00C07S80LI00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Fri, 07 Mar 2008 14:09:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from dm-sfbay-02.sfbay.sun.com ([129.146.11.31]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JXD00M00S7YG4B0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Fri, 07 Mar 2008 14:09:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from zruty.sfbay.sun.com (zruty.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.168.40]) by dm-sfbay-02.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m27M9YaT044541; Fri, 07 Mar 2008 14:09:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from zruty.sfbay.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zruty.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.2+Sun/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m27M9YX6013632; Fri, 07 Mar 2008 14:09:34 -0800 (PST) Received: (from dduvall@localhost) by zruty.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.2+Sun/8.14.2/Submit) id m27M9Xee013631; Fri, 07 Mar 2008 14:09:34 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2008 14:09:33 -0800 From: Danek Duvall Subject: Re: Nethack 3.4.3 [PSARC/2008/172 FastTrack timeout 03/11/2008] In-reply-to: <47D1B9F9.1090307@sun.com> To: Joseph Kowalski Cc: PSARC-ext@sun.com Message-id: <20080307220933.GW9130@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <20080304214642.GB9130@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <47D1B9F9.1090307@sun.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.16 (2007-06-27) Status: RO Content-Length: 827 On Fri, Mar 07, 2008 at 11:56:09AM -1000, Joseph Kowalski wrote: > I'm also not questioning if this should be included or not (but if it is > included as a throwback to old UNIX nostalgia, where is "fortune"? :-) ) Bart's promised to integrate it, once has a spare cycle or two. > Now, if I remember right (and I may not), this was the "bin" equivalent > for games. If that's true, shouldn't this be place for nethack, the > executable? It was true, and it's something the Linux folks have taken up, but I think it's a poor place, in a world where we're studiously trying to avoid ghettoizing components for no good reason. Linux compatibility here is irrelevant. I just don't see a good reason to put anything under /usr/games. Perhaps we can ship by default with a bones file of a player called "/usr/games". Danek From carlsonj@phorcys.east.sun.com Fri Mar 7 14:27:08 2008 Received: from sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m27MR7ok017489 for ; Fri, 7 Mar 2008 14:27:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m27MR0lG027367; Sat, 8 Mar 2008 06:27:05 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JXD00E09T12CC00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Fri, 07 Mar 2008 14:27:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com ([129.148.174.143]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JXD00M8YT11G4C0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Fri, 07 Mar 2008 14:27:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.2+Sun/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m27MR1EM020002; Fri, 07 Mar 2008 17:27:01 -0500 (EST) Received: (from carlsonj@localhost) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.2+Sun/8.14.2/Submit) id m27MR172019999; Fri, 07 Mar 2008 17:27:01 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2008 17:27:01 -0500 From: James Carlson Subject: Re: Nethack 3.4.3 [PSARC/2008/172 FastTrack timeout 03/11/2008] In-reply-to: <20080307220933.GW9130@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> To: Danek Duvall Cc: Joseph Kowalski , PSARC-ext@sun.com Message-id: <18385.49461.525604.11873@gargle.gargle.HOWL> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: VM 7.01 under Emacs 21.3.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <20080304214642.GB9130@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <47D1B9F9.1090307@sun.com> <20080307220933.GW9130@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> Status: RO Content-Length: 1646 Danek Duvall writes: > > Now, if I remember right (and I may not), this was the "bin" equivalent > > for games. If that's true, shouldn't this be place for nethack, the > > executable? > > It was true, and it's something the Linux folks have taken up, but I think > it's a poor place, in a world where we're studiously trying to avoid > ghettoizing components for no good reason. I don't think that's accurate. The /usr/sfw ghetto was created on essentially irrelevant grounds: that the source was somehow "foreign" because it was maintained by a non-Sun employee. Using Sun's org chart was really a poor way to design a system, and we've thankfully given that up. That doesn't mean, though, that the fundamental nature of what the executable in question does is out of bounds. If it's a system daemon that nobody should ordinarily start by hand, we'll probably want it under /usr/lib. If it's an administrative tool, it goes under /usr/sbin. If it's needed before root is mounted ... That's quite different from asking who wrote the code or other non-architectural questions, so I think Joe's note about the meaning of /usr/games is on point, if maybe archaic. > Linux compatibility here is > irrelevant. ! > I just don't see a good reason to put anything under > /usr/games. I agree with that. We've got lots of games in other places, so it seems rather pointless to try to get that bit of purity back. -- James Carlson, Solaris Networking Sun Microsystems / 35 Network Drive 71.232W Vox +1 781 442 2084 MS UBUR02-212 / Burlington MA 01803-2757 42.496N Fax +1 781 442 1677 From jek3@sun.com Fri Mar 7 14:53:50 2008 Received: from sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m27Mrnqo018124 for ; Fri, 7 Mar 2008 14:53:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m27Mrfqo006791; Sat, 8 Mar 2008 06:53:46 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JXD00H01U9I6L00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Fri, 07 Mar 2008 14:53:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com ([129.146.17.59]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JXD00MCGU9IG1B0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Fri, 07 Mar 2008 14:53:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from [129.150.13.200] (vpn-129-150-13-200.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.13.200]) by jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.2+Sun/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m27MreKG268449; Fri, 07 Mar 2008 14:53:41 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2008 12:51:23 -1000 From: Joseph Kowalski Subject: Re: Nethack 3.4.3 [PSARC/2008/172 FastTrack timeout 03/11/2008] In-reply-to: <20080307220933.GW9130@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> To: Danek Duvall Cc: PSARC-ext@sun.com Message-id: <47D1C6EB.4060406@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_6Tqlh79rC3JDiKA061teAw)" X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <20080304214642.GB9130@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <47D1B9F9.1090307@sun.com> <20080307220933.GW9130@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (X11/20071119) Status: RO Content-Length: 3588 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_6Tqlh79rC3JDiKA061teAw) Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Danek Duvall wrote: > On Fri, Mar 07, 2008 at 11:56:09AM -1000, Joseph Kowalski wrote: > > >> I'm also not questioning if this should be included or not (but if it is >> included as a throwback to old UNIX nostalgia, where is "fortune"? :-) ) >> > > Bart's promised to integrate it, once has a spare cycle or two. > > >> Now, if I remember right (and I may not), this was the "bin" equivalent >> for games. If that's true, shouldn't this be place for nethack, the >> executable? >> > > It was true, and it's something the Linux folks have taken up, but I think > it's a poor place, in a world where we're studiously trying to avoid > ghettoizing components for no good reason. Linux compatibility here is > irrelevant. I just don't see a good reason to put anything under > /usr/games. > > Perhaps we can ship by default with a bones file of a player called > "/usr/games". > > Danek > I'm really surprised at this. We (Solaris) often get accused of NIH attitudes. In most cases, we can deflect that accusation because of pre-existing conventions. Here we have a chance to not only be compatible with Linux, but even SunOS4.1. (Of course, the root of all of this is ucb.) Oh well. As I said, I lost my chance to influence this choice. Bart's "fortune" integration may not be so fortunate. (If it happens,... Sorry Bart.) - jek3 --Boundary_(ID_6Tqlh79rC3JDiKA061teAw) Content-type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Danek Duvall wrote: 
On Fri, Mar 07, 2008 at 11:56:09AM -1000, Joseph Kowalski wrote:

  
I'm also not questioning if this should be included or not (but if it is
included as a throwback to old UNIX nostalgia, where is "fortune"?  :-) )
    

Bart's promised to integrate it, once has a spare cycle or two.

  
Now, if I remember right (and I may not), this was the "bin" equivalent
for games.  If that's true, shouldn't this be place for nethack, the
executable?
    

It was true, and it's something the Linux folks have taken up, but I think
it's a poor place, in a world where we're studiously trying to avoid
ghettoizing components for no good reason.  Linux compatibility here is
irrelevant.  I just don't see a good reason to put anything under
/usr/games.

Perhaps we can ship by default with a bones file of a player called
"/usr/games".

Danek
I'm really surprised at this.  We (Solaris) often get accused of NIH attitudes.  In
most cases, we can deflect that accusation because of pre-existing conventions.
Here we have a chance to not only be compatible with Linux, but even SunOS4.1.
(Of course, the root of all of this is ucb.)

Oh well.  As I said, I lost my chance to influence this choice.

Bart's "fortune" integration may not be so fortunate.  (If it happens,... Sorry Bart.)

- jek3

--Boundary_(ID_6Tqlh79rC3JDiKA061teAw)-- From jek3@sun.com Fri Mar 7 15:01:55 2008 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m27N1tHU018678 for ; Fri, 7 Mar 2008 15:01:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m27N1rpP001640; Fri, 7 Mar 2008 15:01:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JXD00405UN50200@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Fri, 07 Mar 2008 16:01:53 -0700 (MST) Received: from jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com ([129.146.17.59]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JXD00LXUUN4Z780@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Fri, 07 Mar 2008 16:01:52 -0700 (MST) Received: from [129.150.13.200] (vpn-129-150-13-200.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.13.200]) by jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.2+Sun/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m27N1pg8270372; Fri, 07 Mar 2008 15:01:52 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2008 12:59:35 -1000 From: Joseph Kowalski Subject: Re: Nethack 3.4.3 [PSARC/2008/172 FastTrack timeout 03/11/2008] In-reply-to: <18385.49461.525604.11873@gargle.gargle.HOWL> To: James Carlson Cc: Danek Duvall , PSARC-ext@sun.com Message-id: <47D1C8D7.2030305@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <20080304214642.GB9130@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <47D1B9F9.1090307@sun.com> <20080307220933.GW9130@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <18385.49461.525604.11873@gargle.gargle.HOWL> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (X11/20071119) Status: RO Content-Length: 675 James Carlson wrote: > ... > so I think Joe's note about the meaning > of /usr/games is on point, if maybe archaic. > At least Jim didn't say I was archaic... :-) >> I just don't see a good reason to put anything under >> /usr/games. >> > > I agree with that. We've got lots of games in other places, so it > seems rather pointless to try to get that bit of purity back. > Uh, if you look at Linux/Gnome distributions, you will find the gnome games that we have hidden somewhere are in /usr/games on Linux. We've just already shown that we have an NIH attitude. (Well actually, this is more do from JDS being a separate product for a short time.) - jek3 From danek.duvall@sun.com Fri Mar 7 16:00:46 2008 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m2800jfc020186 for ; Fri, 7 Mar 2008 16:00:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m2800cHP021816; Sat, 8 Mar 2008 00:00:43 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JXD00805XD6SZ00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Fri, 07 Mar 2008 17:00:42 -0700 (MST) Received: from dm-sfbay-01.sfbay.sun.com ([129.145.155.118]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JXD008DIXD55900@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Fri, 07 Mar 2008 17:00:41 -0700 (MST) Received: from zruty.sfbay.sun.com (zruty.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.168.40]) by dm-sfbay-01.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m2800fEB005571; Fri, 07 Mar 2008 16:00:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from zruty.sfbay.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zruty.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.2+Sun/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m2800e0M014977; Fri, 07 Mar 2008 16:00:40 -0800 (PST) Received: (from dduvall@localhost) by zruty.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.2+Sun/8.14.2/Submit) id m2800e3C014976; Fri, 07 Mar 2008 16:00:40 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2008 16:00:40 -0800 From: Danek Duvall Subject: Re: Nethack 3.4.3 [PSARC/2008/172 FastTrack timeout 03/11/2008] In-reply-to: <47D1C6EB.4060406@sun.com> To: Joseph Kowalski Cc: PSARC-ext@sun.com Message-id: <20080308000040.GZ9130@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <20080304214642.GB9130@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <47D1B9F9.1090307@sun.com> <20080307220933.GW9130@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <47D1C6EB.4060406@sun.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.16 (2007-06-27) Status: RO Content-Length: 476 On Fri, Mar 07, 2008 at 12:51:23PM -1000, Joseph Kowalski wrote: > I'm really surprised at this. We (Solaris) often get accused of NIH > attitudes. In most cases, we can deflect that accusation because of > pre-existing conventions. Here we have a chance to not only be > compatible with Linux, but even SunOS4.1. (Of course, the root of all of > this is ucb.) What's the *point* of /usr/games? If I file an "Obsolete /usr/games" case, would you be any happier? Danek From jek3@sun.com Fri Mar 7 16:08:20 2008 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m2808KXg021202 for ; Fri, 7 Mar 2008 16:08:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m2808JMM019752; Fri, 7 Mar 2008 16:08:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JXD00169XPVFY00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Fri, 07 Mar 2008 16:08:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com ([129.146.17.59]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JXD00MUNXL37310@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Fri, 07 Mar 2008 16:05:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from [129.150.13.200] (vpn-129-150-13-200.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.13.200]) by jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.2+Sun/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m2805QUW279859; Fri, 07 Mar 2008 16:05:27 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2008 14:03:10 -1000 From: Joseph Kowalski Subject: Re: Nethack 3.4.3 [PSARC/2008/172 FastTrack timeout 03/11/2008] In-reply-to: <20080308000040.GZ9130@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> To: Danek Duvall Cc: PSARC-ext@sun.com Message-id: <47D1D7BE.1010500@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <20080304214642.GB9130@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <47D1B9F9.1090307@sun.com> <20080307220933.GW9130@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <47D1C6EB.4060406@sun.com> <20080308000040.GZ9130@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (X11/20071119) Status: RO Content-Length: 291 Danek Duvall wrote: > What's the *point* of /usr/games? See Jim's mail on "sorting by functionality". The bigger issue is being gratuitously different than other UNIXs. > If I file an "Obsolete /usr/games" case, > would you be any happier? > No. That would be a waste of time. - jek3 From Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com Fri Mar 7 16:36:04 2008 Received: from sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m280a3AF021703 for ; Fri, 7 Mar 2008 16:36:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m280ZvNe015308 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-ext@sun.com>; Sat, 8 Mar 2008 08:36:02 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JXD00901Z01V400@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@Sun.COM); Fri, 07 Mar 2008 16:36:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from sca-es-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.43.132]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JXD001PTZ00H690@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@Sun.COM); Fri, 07 Mar 2008 16:36:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from fe-sfbay-09.sun.com ([192.18.43.129]) by sca-es-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m280a0TD012943 for ; Fri, 07 Mar 2008 16:36:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from conversion-daemon.fe-sfbay-09.sun.com by fe-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0JXD00C01YVYLH00@fe-sfbay-09.sun.com> (original mail from Alan.Coopersmith@Sun.COM) for PSARC-ext@Sun.COM (ORCPT PSARC-ext@Sun.COM); Fri, 07 Mar 2008 16:36:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from almas.sfbay.sun.com ([129.146.106.93]) by fe-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0JXD00M7OYZIWWE0@fe-sfbay-09.sun.com>; Fri, 07 Mar 2008 16:35:43 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2008 16:35:42 -0800 From: Alan Coopersmith Subject: Re: Nethack 3.4.3 [PSARC/2008/172 FastTrack timeout 03/11/2008] In-reply-to: <20080308000040.GZ9130@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> Sender: Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com To: Danek Duvall Cc: Joseph Kowalski , PSARC-ext@sun.com Message-id: <47D1DF5E.6080207@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.1 References: <20080304214642.GB9130@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <47D1B9F9.1090307@sun.com> <20080307220933.GW9130@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <47D1C6EB.4060406@sun.com> <20080308000040.GZ9130@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (X11/20071203) Status: RO Content-Length: 765 Danek Duvall wrote: > On Fri, Mar 07, 2008 at 12:51:23PM -1000, Joseph Kowalski wrote: > >> I'm really surprised at this. We (Solaris) often get accused of NIH >> attitudes. In most cases, we can deflect that accusation because of >> pre-existing conventions. Here we have a chance to not only be >> compatible with Linux, but even SunOS4.1. (Of course, the root of all of >> this is ucb.) > > What's the *point* of /usr/games? So you can find the games quickly, without having to guess what in /usr/bin would be fun to run. (nethack really sounds more like a network intrusion or debugging tool than a game if you don't already know it.) -- -Alan Coopersmith- alan.coopersmith@sun.com Sun Microsystems, Inc. - X Window System Engineering From Danek.Duvall@sun.com Fri Mar 7 16:53:28 2008 Received: from sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m280rRJM022056 for ; Fri, 7 Mar 2008 16:53:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m280rIq7020876; Sat, 8 Mar 2008 08:53:24 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JXD00601ZSZJL00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Fri, 07 Mar 2008 16:53:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from dm-sfbay-01.sfbay.sun.com ([129.145.155.118]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JXD00MVCZSZ7750@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Fri, 07 Mar 2008 16:53:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from zruty.sfbay.sun.com (zruty.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.168.40]) by dm-sfbay-01.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m280rNw2035733; Fri, 07 Mar 2008 16:53:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from zruty.sfbay.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zruty.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.2+Sun/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m280rNYH015281; Fri, 07 Mar 2008 16:53:23 -0800 (PST) Received: (from dduvall@localhost) by zruty.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.2+Sun/8.14.2/Submit) id m280rM8Q015280; Fri, 07 Mar 2008 16:53:22 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2008 16:53:22 -0800 From: Danek Duvall Subject: Re: Nethack 3.4.3 [PSARC/2008/172 FastTrack timeout 03/11/2008] In-reply-to: <47D1D7BE.1010500@sun.com> To: Joseph Kowalski Cc: PSARC-ext@sun.com Message-id: <20080308005322.GB9130@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <20080304214642.GB9130@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <47D1B9F9.1090307@sun.com> <20080307220933.GW9130@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <47D1C6EB.4060406@sun.com> <20080308000040.GZ9130@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <47D1D7BE.1010500@sun.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.16 (2007-06-27) Status: RO Content-Length: 922 On Fri, Mar 07, 2008 at 02:03:10PM -1000, Joseph Kowalski wrote: > Danek Duvall wrote: >> What's the *point* of /usr/games? > See Jim's mail on "sorting by functionality". Yeah, I saw that. I can see the point of separating out some stuff into /usr/sbin, I can definitely see /usr/lib. But everything else? Why not have a separate directory for "things Joe likes to run on Mondays"? > The bigger issue is being gratuitously different than other UNIXs. And I don't see what downside this difference makes. It makes it easier to find on Solaris. I suppose if you have a script that depends on /usr/games/nethack being portable across all platforms you run it on then yes, we're annoying you, but you're scraping the bottom of the barrel if that's your reasoning. >> If I file an "Obsolete /usr/games" case, would you be any happier? > > No. That would be a waste of time. More than this thread has become? Danek From gdamore@sun.com Fri Mar 7 16:57:44 2008 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m280vhcO022315 for ; Fri, 7 Mar 2008 16:57:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m280vXFT013192 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-ext@sun.com>; Sat, 8 Mar 2008 00:57:42 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JXE00D050051R00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Fri, 07 Mar 2008 17:57:41 -0700 (MST) Received: from sca-es-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.43.132]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JXE008WK0045520@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Fri, 07 Mar 2008 17:57:40 -0700 (MST) Received: from fe-sfbay-10.sun.com ([192.18.43.129]) by sca-es-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m280veIA014812 for ; Fri, 07 Mar 2008 16:57:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from conversion-daemon.fe-sfbay-10.sun.com by fe-sfbay-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0JXD00101ZV7NX00@fe-sfbay-10.sun.com> (original mail from gdamore@sun.com) for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Fri, 07 Mar 2008 16:57:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.251.106] ([76.174.83.55]) by fe-sfbay-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0JXE0009M003TH10@fe-sfbay-10.sun.com>; Fri, 07 Mar 2008 16:57:40 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2008 16:55:22 -0800 From: "Garrett D'Amore" Subject: Re: Nethack 3.4.3 [PSARC/2008/172 FastTrack timeout 03/11/2008] In-reply-to: <47D1D7BE.1010500@sun.com> Sender: Garrett.Damore@sun.com To: Joseph Kowalski Cc: Danek Duvall , PSARC-ext@sun.com Message-id: <47D1E3FA.5060001@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <20080304214642.GB9130@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <47D1B9F9.1090307@sun.com> <20080307220933.GW9130@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <47D1C6EB.4060406@sun.com> <20080308000040.GZ9130@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <47D1D7BE.1010500@sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (X11/20071023) Status: RO Content-Length: 448 Joseph Kowalski wrote: > Danek Duvall wrote: >> What's the *point* of /usr/games? > See Jim's mail on "sorting by functionality". > > The bigger issue is being gratuitously different than other UNIXs. >> If I file an "Obsolete /usr/games" case, >> would you be any happier? >> > No. That would be a waste of time. Isn't that the *point* of games, by definition? (Ignoring for the moment games where wagering is involved....) -- Garrett From gdamore@sun.com Fri Mar 7 17:04:25 2008 Received: from sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m2814Ope022539 for ; Fri, 7 Mar 2008 17:04:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m2814Cha025102 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-ext@sun.com>; Sat, 8 Mar 2008 09:04:23 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JXE00D0J0B9K400@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Fri, 07 Mar 2008 18:04:21 -0700 (MST) Received: from sca-es-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.43.132]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JXE008NM0B85920@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Fri, 07 Mar 2008 18:04:20 -0700 (MST) Received: from fe-sfbay-09.sun.com ([192.18.43.129]) by sca-es-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m2814Kha015317 for ; Fri, 07 Mar 2008 17:04:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from conversion-daemon.fe-sfbay-09.sun.com by fe-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0JXE00H010A3KF00@fe-sfbay-09.sun.com> (original mail from gdamore@sun.com) for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Fri, 07 Mar 2008 17:04:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.251.106] ([76.174.83.55]) by fe-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0JXE00M3U0B8GS70@fe-sfbay-09.sun.com>; Fri, 07 Mar 2008 17:04:20 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2008 17:02:02 -0800 From: "Garrett D'Amore" Subject: Re: Nethack 3.4.3 [PSARC/2008/172 FastTrack timeout 03/11/2008] In-reply-to: <47D1DF5E.6080207@sun.com> Sender: Garrett.Damore@sun.com To: Alan Coopersmith Cc: Danek Duvall , Joseph Kowalski , PSARC-ext@sun.com Message-id: <47D1E58A.3060801@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <20080304214642.GB9130@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <47D1B9F9.1090307@sun.com> <20080307220933.GW9130@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <47D1C6EB.4060406@sun.com> <20080308000040.GZ9130@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <47D1DF5E.6080207@sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (X11/20071023) Status: RO Content-Length: 955 Alan Coopersmith wrote: > Danek Duvall wrote: > >> On Fri, Mar 07, 2008 at 12:51:23PM -1000, Joseph Kowalski wrote: >> >> >>> I'm really surprised at this. We (Solaris) often get accused of NIH >>> attitudes. In most cases, we can deflect that accusation because of >>> pre-existing conventions. Here we have a chance to not only be >>> compatible with Linux, but even SunOS4.1. (Of course, the root of all of >>> this is ucb.) >>> >> What's the *point* of /usr/games? >> > > So you can find the games quickly, without having to guess what in > /usr/bin would be fun to run. (nethack really sounds more like a > network intrusion or debugging tool than a game if you don't already > know it.) > I think you're missing the point of nethack. The point is to tie up the cycles of certain people (lets call them script-kiddies) so their spent in a harmless diversion *rather* than hacking your network. :-) -- Garrett From bart.smaalders@sun.com Fri Mar 7 17:08:39 2008 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m2818cvr022594 for ; Fri, 7 Mar 2008 17:08:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m2818QsD017038; Sat, 8 Mar 2008 01:08:36 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JXE0080H0IC4900@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Fri, 07 Mar 2008 17:08:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from zion.sfbay.sun.com ([129.146.17.75]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JXE00MAA0IB7660@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Fri, 07 Mar 2008 17:08:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from [129.146.228.109] (cyber.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.228.109]) by zion.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.2+Sun/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m2818ZeE460067; Sat, 08 Mar 2008 01:08:35 +0000 (GMT) Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2008 17:13:38 -0800 From: Bart Smaalders Subject: Re: Nethack 3.4.3 [PSARC/2008/172 FastTrack timeout 03/11/2008] In-reply-to: <47D1D7BE.1010500@sun.com> To: Joseph Kowalski Cc: Danek Duvall , PSARC-ext@sun.com Message-id: <47D1E842.6080800@Sun.COM> Organization: Sun Microsystems MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <20080304214642.GB9130@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <47D1B9F9.1090307@sun.com> <20080307220933.GW9130@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <47D1C6EB.4060406@sun.com> <20080308000040.GZ9130@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <47D1D7BE.1010500@sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (X11/20080201) Status: RO Content-Length: 835 Joseph Kowalski wrote: > Danek Duvall wrote: >> What's the *point* of /usr/games? > See Jim's mail on "sorting by functionality". > > The bigger issue is being gratuitously different than other UNIXs. >> If I file an "Obsolete /usr/games" case, >> would you be any happier? >> > No. That would be a waste of time. /usr/bin/ contains: gnect gnibbles gnobots gnome-sudoku gnotravex gnomine gnotski It will soon contain nethack. Partitioning by functionality.... that's why we used to put the software development tools into /usr/ccs/bin, right? That's why PSARC wanted /usr/proc/bin, right? Putting things in different directories doesn't help anyone. - Bart -- Bart Smaalders Solaris Kernel Performance barts@cyber.eng.sun.com http://blogs.sun.com/barts "You will contribute more with mercurial than with thunderbird." From jek3@sun.com Fri Mar 7 17:22:31 2008 Received: from sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m281MUJp022719 for ; Fri, 7 Mar 2008 17:22:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m281MOPY001321; Sat, 8 Mar 2008 09:22:27 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JXE00C0515D5N00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Fri, 07 Mar 2008 17:22:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com ([129.146.17.59]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JXE0019T15DHBD0@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Fri, 07 Mar 2008 17:22:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from [129.150.13.200] (vpn-129-150-13-200.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.13.200]) by jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.2+Sun/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m281MOYs290112; Fri, 07 Mar 2008 17:22:24 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2008 15:20:07 -1000 From: Joseph Kowalski Subject: Re: Nethack 3.4.3 [PSARC/2008/172 FastTrack timeout 03/11/2008] In-reply-to: <20080308005322.GB9130@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> To: Danek Duvall Cc: PSARC-ext@sun.com Message-id: <47D1E9C7.6060007@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <20080304214642.GB9130@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <47D1B9F9.1090307@sun.com> <20080307220933.GW9130@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <47D1C6EB.4060406@sun.com> <20080308000040.GZ9130@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <47D1D7BE.1010500@sun.com> <20080308005322.GB9130@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (X11/20071119) Status: RO Content-Length: 1977 Danek Duvall wrote: > Yeah, I saw that. I can see the point of separating out some stuff into > /usr/sbin, I can definitely see /usr/lib. But everything else? Why not > have a separate directory for "things Joe likes to run on Mondays"? > I'll point out there is a separate place for such things. It's called $HOME. And please get it right, its Tuedays. :-) And as I said, the discussion of separation by usage class (or whatever) is interesting, and we've had that discussion before and we will probably see it again. The much more important thing is familiarity for Linux users. >> The bigger issue is being gratuitously different than other UNIXs. >> > > And I don't see what downside this difference makes. It makes it easier to > find on Solaris. I suppose if you have a script that depends on > /usr/games/nethack being portable across all platforms you run it on then > yes, we're annoying you, but you're scraping the bottom of the barrel if > that's your reasoning. > No. Its about familiarity. BTW: If nothing else, could you not overload the existing /usr/games with a new semantic? Now we are faced with somebody who is used to finding the game executables in the familiar place and finding something else there entirely. >>> If I file an "Obsolete /usr/games" case, would you be any happier? >>> >> No. That would be a waste of time. >> > > More than this thread has become? > Well, I'm sorry, but I actually believe this is important. I believe we have been given direction to be as "familiar" as possible with respect to Linux. I personally felt that this whole concept, although a good one, was taken too far. However, I am bound to either "agree and commit, disagree and commit, or get out of the way". I thought this was what we were all bound to do. Danek, I have the upmost respect for you. If we are to discuss things at this level, we should probably talk rather than risk alienating each other. - jek3 From jek3@sun.com Fri Mar 7 17:36:59 2008 Received: from sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m281aws0022836 for ; Fri, 7 Mar 2008 17:36:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m281asZp006207; Sat, 8 Mar 2008 09:36:56 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JXE00B051TJJH00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Fri, 07 Mar 2008 17:36:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com ([129.146.17.59]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JXE00MXA1TJ7270@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Fri, 07 Mar 2008 17:36:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from [129.150.13.200] (vpn-129-150-13-200.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.13.200]) by jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.2+Sun/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m281ajls291506; Fri, 07 Mar 2008 17:36:45 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2008 15:34:29 -1000 From: Joseph Kowalski Subject: Re: Nethack 3.4.3 [PSARC/2008/172 FastTrack timeout 03/11/2008] In-reply-to: <47D1E842.6080800@Sun.COM> To: Bart Smaalders Cc: Danek Duvall , PSARC-ext@sun.com Message-id: <47D1ED25.3010809@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <20080304214642.GB9130@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <47D1B9F9.1090307@sun.com> <20080307220933.GW9130@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <47D1C6EB.4060406@sun.com> <20080308000040.GZ9130@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <47D1D7BE.1010500@sun.com> <47D1E842.6080800@Sun.COM> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (X11/20071119) Status: RO Content-Length: 932 Bart Smaalders wrote: > /usr/bin/ contains: > > gnect > gnibbles > gnobots > gnome-sudoku > gnotravex > gnomine > gnotski Thanks for the information. It provides more justification that we are just giving lipservice to Linux familiarity. We "just know better", more politely termed NIH. Yes, Jim did talk about sorting by some arbitrary criteria. As I said in my last mail, there are several camps around this and we will have this discussion again and again. Its not the important issue, Linux familiarity is. It is interesting to note, that the discussion often is about what (historically and somewhat well defined semanticall) "bin" something belongs in. I seem to recall a lot of items which seemed to be fit in /usr/sbin (by the endorsed semantic) were proposed to be placed in /usr/bin, because that's where they can be found on Linux. Rules that can be applied on a situational basis, are not rules at all. - jek3 From bart.smaalders@sun.com Fri Mar 7 17:50:17 2008 Received: from sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m281oGYd023115 for ; Fri, 7 Mar 2008 17:50:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m281o9Rp010073; Sat, 8 Mar 2008 09:50:14 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JXE00H092FOJJ00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Fri, 07 Mar 2008 18:50:12 -0700 (MST) Received: from zion.sfbay.sun.com ([129.146.17.75]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JXE008AT2FN5D40@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Fri, 07 Mar 2008 18:50:11 -0700 (MST) Received: from [129.146.228.109] (cyber.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.228.109]) by zion.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.2+Sun/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m281oB9T460646; Sat, 08 Mar 2008 01:50:11 +0000 (GMT) Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2008 17:55:14 -0800 From: Bart Smaalders Subject: Re: Nethack 3.4.3 [PSARC/2008/172 FastTrack timeout 03/11/2008] In-reply-to: <47D1ED25.3010809@sun.com> To: Joseph Kowalski Cc: Danek Duvall , PSARC-ext@sun.com Message-id: <47D1F202.5030308@Sun.COM> Organization: Sun Microsystems MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <20080304214642.GB9130@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <47D1B9F9.1090307@sun.com> <20080307220933.GW9130@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <47D1C6EB.4060406@sun.com> <20080308000040.GZ9130@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <47D1D7BE.1010500@sun.com> <47D1E842.6080800@Sun.COM> <47D1ED25.3010809@sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (X11/20080201) Status: RO Content-Length: 1996 Joseph Kowalski wrote: > Bart Smaalders wrote: >> /usr/bin/ contains: >> >> gnect >> gnibbles >> gnobots >> gnome-sudoku >> gnotravex >> gnomine >> gnotski > Thanks for the information. > > It provides more justification that we are just giving lipservice to > Linux familiarity. We "just know better", more politely termed NIH. > > Yes, Jim did talk about sorting by some arbitrary criteria. As I > said in my last mail, there are several camps around this and we > will have this discussion again and again. Its not the important > issue, Linux familiarity is. > > It is interesting to note, that the discussion often is about > what (historically and somewhat well defined semanticall) "bin" > something belongs in. I seem to recall a lot of items which seemed > to be fit in /usr/sbin (by the endorsed semantic) were proposed > to be placed in /usr/bin, because that's where they can be found > on Linux. No. We tried to come to some sort of closure on this when someone derailed my nmap case, and articulate a clear set of rules... but it was insisted upon that the case not set precedent. As far as I'm concerned, the logic is simple: 1) if only root can use the command, it belongs in /usr/sbin which is in root's default path. 2) If the command is generally useful, it belongs in /usr/bin. > > Rules that can be applied on a situational basis, are not rules at all. Yes.... and I remember vehement arguments that /usr/sbin was supposed to have all system admin commands, all dangerous commands, etc. Indexing commands by directory isn't very useful; it's only a single dimension. What about X games vs curses games vs OpenGL games? As we repeatedly discussed during the Enabling Serendipitous Discovery case, placing commands in separate directories does very little good, and tends to do harm. - Bart -- Bart Smaalders Solaris Kernel Performance barts@cyber.eng.sun.com http://blogs.sun.com/barts "You will contribute more with mercurial than with thunderbird." From danek.duvall@sun.com Fri Mar 7 18:56:15 2008 Received: from sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m282uEr5025550 for ; Fri, 7 Mar 2008 18:56:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m282uA45001317; Sat, 8 Mar 2008 10:56:11 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JXE00H015HN2200@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Fri, 07 Mar 2008 18:56:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from dm-sfbay-02.sfbay.sun.com ([129.146.11.31]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JXE00FRM5HM7B10@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Fri, 07 Mar 2008 18:56:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from zruty.sfbay.sun.com (zruty.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.168.40]) by dm-sfbay-02.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m282uACX009709; Fri, 07 Mar 2008 18:56:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from zruty.sfbay.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zruty.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.2+Sun/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m282uAXO016061; Fri, 07 Mar 2008 18:56:10 -0800 (PST) Received: (from dduvall@localhost) by zruty.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.2+Sun/8.14.2/Submit) id m282uAvp016060; Fri, 07 Mar 2008 18:56:10 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2008 18:56:10 -0800 From: Danek Duvall Subject: Re: Nethack 3.4.3 [PSARC/2008/172 FastTrack timeout 03/11/2008] In-reply-to: <47D1E9C7.6060007@sun.com> To: Joseph Kowalski Cc: PSARC-ext@sun.com Message-id: <20080308025610.GA16041@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <20080304214642.GB9130@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <47D1B9F9.1090307@sun.com> <20080307220933.GW9130@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <47D1C6EB.4060406@sun.com> <20080308000040.GZ9130@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <47D1D7BE.1010500@sun.com> <20080308005322.GB9130@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <47D1E9C7.6060007@sun.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.16 (2007-06-27) Status: RO Content-Length: 2642 On Fri, Mar 07, 2008 at 03:20:07PM -1000, Joseph Kowalski wrote: > I'll point out there is a separate place for such things. It's called > $HOME. > > And please get it right, its Tuedays. :-) > > And as I said, the discussion of separation by usage class (or whatever) is > interesting, and we've had that discussion before and we will probably see > it again. I really hope not. Bart's flip responose was better than mine. Do we want /usr/editors? /usr/terminal-emulators? Would you prefer that we'd never linked the java executable into /usr/bin? I really don't see the value of siloing executables by what kinds of things they are, aside from project-private executables and those that only people with privilege would ever find useful (and I mean ever). > The much more important thing is familiarity for Linux users. Definitely. But I think you can take that too far. > BTW: If nothing else, could you not overload the existing /usr/games with a > new semantic? Now we are faced with somebody who is used to finding the > game executables in the familiar place and finding something else there > entirely. So, for example, Ubuntu ships the nethack executable as /usr/games/nethack-console. Gentoo installs it in /usr/games/bin/nethack. Fedora Core 8 ships it as /usr/bin/nethack. Which of those are you most familiar with? There are loads of places in Linux where they're either inconsistent or just plain broken. I don't think we have to slavishly follow someone else when they're clearly not leading. >> More than this thread has become? I apologize for this. You certainly didn't deserve that. > Well, I'm sorry, but I actually believe this is important. I believe we > have been given direction to be as "familiar" as possible with respect to > Linux. I personally felt that this whole concept, although a good one, > was taken too far. However, I am bound to either "agree and commit, > disagree and commit, or get out of the way". I thought this was what we > were all bound to do. It's not a black-and-white situation -- "familiarity with Linux" isn't a perfectly clear thing that you can actually agree and commit to (or not). In a very narrow view, though, I would expect familiarity to be less about perfect path mimicry than it is about easily finding various components that you're used to. That is, things are available, and not hidden. I would expect people to be far more likely to invoke nethack as "nethack" than as "/usr/games/nethack" or whatever else, and putting executables in /usr/bin if there's no reason to put them elsewhere seems like a great way to make everyone happy. Danek From jek3@sun.com Fri Mar 7 19:13:37 2008 Received: from sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m283Daod025677 for ; Fri, 7 Mar 2008 19:13:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m283DK4n007042; Sat, 8 Mar 2008 11:13:33 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JXE001076AIB800@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Fri, 07 Mar 2008 20:13:30 -0700 (MST) Received: from jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com ([129.146.17.59]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JXE008Z96AI5770@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Fri, 07 Mar 2008 20:13:30 -0700 (MST) Received: from [129.150.13.200] (vpn-129-150-13-200.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.13.200]) by jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.2+Sun/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m283DTT9297455; Fri, 07 Mar 2008 19:13:30 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2008 17:11:11 -1000 From: Joseph Kowalski Subject: Re: Nethack 3.4.3 [PSARC/2008/172 FastTrack timeout 03/11/2008] In-reply-to: <47D1F202.5030308@Sun.COM> To: Bart Smaalders Cc: Danek Duvall , PSARC-ext@sun.com Message-id: <47D203CF.7040907@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <20080304214642.GB9130@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <47D1B9F9.1090307@sun.com> <20080307220933.GW9130@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <47D1C6EB.4060406@sun.com> <20080308000040.GZ9130@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <47D1D7BE.1010500@sun.com> <47D1E842.6080800@Sun.COM> <47D1ED25.3010809@sun.com> <47D1F202.5030308@Sun.COM> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (X11/20071119) Status: RO Content-Length: 1224 Bart Smaalders wrote: > No. > > We tried to come to some sort of closure on this when someone derailed > my nmap case, and articulate a clear set of rules... but it was insisted > upon that the case not set precedent. > > As far as I'm concerned, the logic is simple: > > 1) if only root can use the command, it belongs in /usr/sbin which is > in root's default path. > > 2) If the command is generally useful, it belongs in /usr/bin. I understand. Unfortunately your view did not carry the majority. Get over it or try again. The existing semantic holds. >> >> Rules that can be applied on a situational basis, are not rules at all. > > Yes.... and I remember vehement arguments that /usr/sbin was supposed > to have all system admin commands, all dangerous commands, etc. > > Indexing commands by directory isn't very useful; it's only a single > dimension. > What about X games vs curses games vs OpenGL games? > > As we repeatedly discussed during the Enabling Serendipitous Discovery > case, > placing commands in separate directories does very little good, and > tends to > do harm. OK. You and Danek seem to be dogging the issue. Linux familiarity trumps our internal views about "bin" semantics. - jek3 From jek3@sun.com Fri Mar 7 20:01:52 2008 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m2841qGk026177 for ; Fri, 7 Mar 2008 20:01:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m2841noK027295; Fri, 7 Mar 2008 20:01:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JXE005058J3JX00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Fri, 07 Mar 2008 21:01:51 -0700 (MST) Received: from jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com ([129.146.17.59]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JXE008008J35E90@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Fri, 07 Mar 2008 21:01:51 -0700 (MST) Received: from [129.150.13.200] (vpn-129-150-13-200.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.13.200]) by jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.2+Sun/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m2841oYK300212; Fri, 07 Mar 2008 20:01:50 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2008 17:59:32 -1000 From: Joseph Kowalski Subject: Re: Nethack 3.4.3 [PSARC/2008/172 FastTrack timeout 03/11/2008] In-reply-to: <20080308025610.GA16041@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> To: Danek Duvall Cc: PSARC-ext@sun.com Message-id: <47D20F24.5050909@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_QI8mLfSjVTS7xcQYsjZQbg)" X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <20080304214642.GB9130@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <47D1B9F9.1090307@sun.com> <20080307220933.GW9130@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <47D1C6EB.4060406@sun.com> <20080308000040.GZ9130@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <47D1D7BE.1010500@sun.com> <20080308005322.GB9130@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <47D1E9C7.6060007@sun.com> <20080308025610.GA16041@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (X11/20071119) Status: RO Content-Length: 8485 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_QI8mLfSjVTS7xcQYsjZQbg) Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Danek Duvall wrote: >> BTW: If nothing else, could you not overload the existing /usr/games with a >> new semantic? Now we are faced with somebody who is used to finding the >> game executables in the familiar place and finding something else there >> entirely. >> > > So, for example, Ubuntu ships the nethack executable as > /usr/games/nethack-console. Gentoo installs it in /usr/games/bin/nethack. > Fedora Core 8 ships it as /usr/bin/nethack. Which of those are you most > familiar with? > > There are loads of places in Linux where they're either inconsistent or > just plain broken. I don't think we have to slavishly follow someone else > when they're clearly not leading. > OK. Perhaps I have taken this too far, maybe not, but this does make my doubt my absolute statements. I checked Ubuntu. We know where they installed them. (IMHO, its the directory is the significant point, not the specific name). I know where SunOS 4 installed them. Maybe that's not familiar to anybody without a Sun badge this decade. I'm pretty sure that /usr/games is also where ucb installes them. Debian is just as Ubuntu. Why am I not surprised? I thought this indicated that there was consistency across UNIX. It appears I was wrong. You cite Gentoo: /usr/games/bin. That's a new variation of /usr/games, but it still seems familiar. You cite Fedora Core 8 as using /usr/bin. That's doesn't seem to have the familiarity I was asserting and is consistent with your proposal. (It seems that I didn't install the games on any of my RedHat installations, but its probably a good guess that its the same as Fedora.) SuSE? I don't have a clue. Does anybody know? Humm, what about the FHS/LSB, my favorite document.... > > > Requirements > > The following directories, or symbolic links to directories, are > required in /usr. > > Directory Description > bin Most user commands > include Header files included by C programs > lib Libraries > local Local hierarchy (empty after main installation) > sbin Non-vital system binaries > share Architecture-independent data > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > Specific Options > > Directory Description > X11R6 XWindow System, version 11 release 6 (optional) > games Games and educational binaries (optional) > lib Alternate Format Libraries (optional) > src Source code (optional) > This is clear that /usr/games is optional. I don't believe this is a requirement of "if there are games, they should be in in /usr/games". Rather, I think this is the reverse: "if there is a /usr/games, this is its semantic". Since we have a /usr/games ... So, my question is "is there enough consistency to attempt to be familiar on enough platforms?". I'm now not sure, but it still seems to be enough consistency. (I don't know what RedHat share numbers are, but by themselves they could make this non-familiar for enough people - its about the number of eyeballs, not the number of distros. RedHat has far more delgates at this particular convention...) - jek3 --Boundary_(ID_QI8mLfSjVTS7xcQYsjZQbg) Content-type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Danek Duvall wrote:
BTW: If nothing else, could you not overload the existing /usr/games with a 
new semantic? Now we are faced with somebody who is used to finding the
game executables in the familiar place and finding something else there 
entirely.
    

So, for example, Ubuntu ships the nethack executable as
/usr/games/nethack-console.  Gentoo installs it in /usr/games/bin/nethack.
Fedora Core 8 ships it as /usr/bin/nethack.  Which of those are you most
familiar with?

There are loads of places in Linux where they're either inconsistent or
just plain broken.  I don't think we have to slavishly follow someone else
when they're clearly not leading.
OK.

Perhaps I have taken this too far, maybe not, but this does make my doubt my
absolute statements.

I checked Ubuntu.  We know where they installed them.  (IMHO, its the directory
is the significant point, not the specific name).

I know where SunOS 4 installed them.  Maybe that's not familiar to anybody without
a Sun badge this decade.

I'm pretty sure that /usr/games is also where ucb installes them.

Debian is just as Ubuntu.  Why am I not surprised?

I thought this indicated that there was consistency across UNIX.  It appears
I was wrong.

You cite Gentoo: /usr/games/bin.  That's a new variation of /usr/games, but it
still seems familiar.

You cite Fedora Core 8 as using /usr/bin.  That's doesn't seem to have the familiarity
I was asserting and is consistent with your proposal.  (It seems that I didn't install
the games on any of my RedHat installations, but its probably a good guess that its
the same as Fedora.)

SuSE?  I don't have a clue.  Does anybody know?

Humm, what about the FHS/LSB, my favorite document....

Requirements

The following directories, or symbolic links to directories, are required in /usr.

Directory Description
bin Most user commands
include Header files included by C programs
lib Libraries
local Local hierarchy (empty after main installation)
sbin Non-vital system binaries
share Architecture-independent data

Specific Options

Directory Description
X11R6 XWindow System, version 11 release 6 (optional)
games Games and educational binaries (optional)
lib<qual> Alternate Format Libraries (optional)
src Source code (optional)
This is clear that /usr/games is optional.  I don't believe this is a requirement
of "if there are games, they  should be in in /usr/games".  Rather, I think this
is the reverse: "if there is a /usr/games, this is its semantic".  Since we have
a /usr/games ...

So, my question is "is there enough consistency to attempt to be familiar on enough
platforms?".  I'm now not sure, but it still seems to be enough consistency.

(I don't know what RedHat share numbers are, but by themselves they could make this
non-familiar for enough people - its about the number of eyeballs, not the number of distros.
RedHat has far more delgates at this particular convention...)

- jek3







--Boundary_(ID_QI8mLfSjVTS7xcQYsjZQbg)-- From John.Plocher@sun.com Fri Mar 7 20:09:49 2008 Received: from sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m2849mxh027292 for ; Fri, 7 Mar 2008 20:09:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m2849iuC024188; Sat, 8 Mar 2008 12:09:45 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JXE006038W84J00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Fri, 07 Mar 2008 21:09:44 -0700 (MST) Received: from sca-es-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.43.132]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JXE008678W75590@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Fri, 07 Mar 2008 21:09:43 -0700 (MST) Received: from fe-sfbay-10.sun.com ([192.18.43.129]) by sca-es-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m2849h62022749; Fri, 07 Mar 2008 20:09:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from conversion-daemon.fe-sfbay-10.sun.com by fe-sfbay-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0JXE00K018NX8X00@fe-sfbay-10.sun.com> (original mail from John.Plocher@Sun.COM); Fri, 07 Mar 2008 20:09:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from wp668.local ([208.74.177.212]) by fe-sfbay-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0JXE00BAK8W65940@fe-sfbay-10.sun.com>; Fri, 07 Mar 2008 20:09:43 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2008 20:09:35 -0800 From: John Plocher Subject: Re: Nethack 3.4.3 [PSARC/2008/172 FastTrack timeout 03/11/2008] In-reply-to: <47D203CF.7040907@sun.com> Sender: John.Plocher@sun.com To: Joseph Kowalski Cc: Bart Smaalders , PSARC-ext@sun.com Message-id: <47D2117F.7000107@Sun.Com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 References: <20080304214642.GB9130@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <47D1B9F9.1090307@sun.com> <20080307220933.GW9130@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <47D1C6EB.4060406@sun.com> <20080308000040.GZ9130@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <47D1D7BE.1010500@sun.com> <47D1E842.6080800@Sun.COM> <47D1ED25.3010809@sun.com> <47D1F202.5030308@Sun.COM> <47D203CF.7040907@sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.12 (Macintosh/20080213) Status: RO Content-Length: 703 Joseph Kowalski wrote: > Linux familiarity trumps our internal views about "bin" semantics. Speaking of Linux Distro Hell... ... *which* linux are you trying to be familiar with? That's the nice thing about linux distros, you can always fine one to use as an example to prove whatever point you are trying to make. The key point here is "on linux, it is generally extremely easy to find, get and use almost anything that is being developed in the FOSS world, and on Solaris, it isn't." We're not trying to emulate any one distro, but to enable this "I wanted , so I went and got it and now I'm using it; wow that was easy" customer reaction. Lets not get lost in the weeds... -John From binarycrusader@gmail.com Sat Mar 8 10:02:47 2008 Received: from sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m28I2kT3012328 for ; Sat, 8 Mar 2008 10:02:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m28I2e1t005552 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-ext@sun.com>; Sun, 9 Mar 2008 02:02:45 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JXF00803BGINY00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Sat, 08 Mar 2008 11:02:42 -0700 (MST) Received: from sca-ea-mail-4.sun.com ([192.18.43.22]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JXF00453BGH0V50@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Sat, 08 Mar 2008 11:02:41 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay17i.sun.com (ip127.net129179-4.block1.us.syntegra.com [129.179.4.127]) by sca-ea-mail-4.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m28I2fbi008786 for ; Sat, 08 Mar 2008 18:02:41 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mmp13es.sun.com ([160.41.209.23] [160.41.209.23]) by relay17i.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-39315 for PSARC-ext@sun.com; Sat, 08 Mar 2008 18:02:41 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay17i.sun.com (relay17i.sun.com [129.179.4.127]) by mmp13es.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-172468 for PSARC-ext@sun.com; Sat, 08 Mar 2008 18:02:40 +0000 (Z) Received: from rv-out-0910.google.com ([209.85.198.191] [209.85.198.191]) by relay1i.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-480424 for PSARC-ext@sun.com; Sat, 08 Mar 2008 18:02:40 +0000 (Z) Received: by rv-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id c27so590636rvf.8 for ; Sat, 08 Mar 2008 10:00:19 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.141.151.20 with SMTP id d20mr2019753rvo.108.1204999219170; Sat, 08 Mar 2008 10:00:19 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.140.127.12 with HTTP; Sat, 08 Mar 2008 10:00:19 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2008 12:00:19 -0600 From: Shawn Walker Subject: Re: Nethack 3.4.3 [PSARC/2008/172 FastTrack timeout 03/11/2008] In-reply-to: <47D1F202.5030308@Sun.COM> Sender: binarycrusader@gmail.com To: Bart Smaalders Cc: Joseph Kowalski , PSARC-ext@sun.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references:x-google-sender-auth; bh=re00S2/yTARPdZcrP0wB3KS2u/zBNK8xTaHufgIxDPs=; b=YoRG+uEe1FhNZlu2u68lXjvGbXqUwJvX9xDed8W7ZYAy/LUChMevSY/JbmxhUw9lEClOpRpgYYgDVteu3/QDyg85+jvKOW6ce0X6znXk3ZBdhCON0bYezix+gsKZH8oYaPbuEOhuKqvupQN59IceRmOd5N86akwvg/7EVQ8tJSM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=RCbR9yPZXP5a5CuLfq0mDRBYmwS5Hels7q9ZTObf1N5RUf9jDf4wLg2KTJjDIkDZv+6cD9w9ZQ8Q5DQgs1KqxyXscfO4UEJpRksFHS3KqNevIwaNJR6NytoOqxMTQcjDZKsmSujVFvgW4sOzHQ+xY2/VwLogMchWX390NtVDbn8= X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== X-Google-Sender-Auth: 586024a2a1127a2e X-Antispam: No, score=-2.6/5.0, scanned in 0.084sec at (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smf-spamd v1.3.1 - http://smfs.sf.net/ References: <20080304214642.GB9130@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <47D1B9F9.1090307@sun.com> <20080307220933.GW9130@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <47D1C6EB.4060406@sun.com> <20080308000040.GZ9130@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <47D1D7BE.1010500@sun.com> <47D1E842.6080800@Sun.COM> <47D1ED25.3010809@sun.com> <47D1F202.5030308@Sun.COM> Status: RO Content-Length: 2803 On Fri, Mar 7, 2008 at 7:55 PM, Bart Smaalders wrote: > Joseph Kowalski wrote: > > Bart Smaalders wrote: > >> /usr/bin/ contains: > >> > >> gnect > >> gnibbles > >> gnobots > >> gnome-sudoku > >> gnotravex > >> gnomine > >> gnotski > > Thanks for the information. > > > > It provides more justification that we are just giving lipservice to > > Linux familiarity. We "just know better", more politely termed NIH. > > > > Yes, Jim did talk about sorting by some arbitrary criteria. As I > > said in my last mail, there are several camps around this and we > > will have this discussion again and again. Its not the important > > issue, Linux familiarity is. > > > > It is interesting to note, that the discussion often is about > > what (historically and somewhat well defined semanticall) "bin" > > something belongs in. I seem to recall a lot of items which seemed > > to be fit in /usr/sbin (by the endorsed semantic) were proposed > > to be placed in /usr/bin, because that's where they can be found > > on Linux. > > No. > > We tried to come to some sort of closure on this when someone derailed > my nmap case, and articulate a clear set of rules... but it was insisted > upon that the case not set precedent. > > As far as I'm concerned, the logic is simple: > > 1) if only root can use the command, it belongs in /usr/sbin which is > in root's default path. Don't you mean "if only a privileged user"? :-) > 2) If the command is generally useful, it belongs in /usr/bin. > As we repeatedly discussed during the Enabling Serendipitous Discovery case, > placing commands in separate directories does very little good, and tends to > do harm. The only thing that bothers me about it is the inevitable naming conflicts and the slow, but inevitable performance degradation, and information overload caused by having tens of thousands of executables all in the same directory. The whole /usr/bin thing on GNU/Linux distributions is something I've never been happy about since I started using it in 1995/1996. However, most GNU/Linux folks seem to treat $PATH as anathema. I'm not sure how to have a well organised system and avoid using $PATH at the same time if everything is going to get dumped in /usr/bin. Most of the time, if I'm running a game, it isn't going to be from the command line -- it would be from a shortcut on my "desktop." Do I really want game executables polluting my "finger memory" via tab-completion as I'm trying to actually administrate the system? I know there's no easy answer here, but I do wonder where this is all headed. -- Shawn Walker, Software and Systems Analyst http://binarycrusader.blogspot.com/ "To err is human -- and to blame it on a computer is even more so." - Robert Orben From binarycrusader@gmail.com Sat Mar 8 10:04:17 2008 Received: from sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m28I4GTB012407 for ; Sat, 8 Mar 2008 10:04:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m28I48SZ006077 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-ext@sun.com>; Sun, 9 Mar 2008 02:04:15 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JXF00805BJ3RQ00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Sat, 08 Mar 2008 11:04:15 -0700 (MST) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.98.43]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JXF004CFBJ20V50@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Sat, 08 Mar 2008 11:04:14 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay42i.sun.com ([192.5.209.72]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m28HIBfU000234 for ; Sat, 08 Mar 2008 18:04:14 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mms49es.sun.com ([160.41.221.233] [160.41.221.233]) by relay42i.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-118122 for PSARC-ext@sun.com; Sat, 08 Mar 2008 18:04:14 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay41i.sun.com (relay41i.sun.com [192.5.209.70]) by mms49es.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-3292691 for PSARC-ext@sun.com; Sat, 08 Mar 2008 18:04:14 +0000 (Z) Received: from hs-out-0708.google.com ([64.233.178.251] [64.233.178.251]) by relay4i.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-4468282 for PSARC-ext@sun.com; Sat, 08 Mar 2008 18:04:13 +0000 (Z) Received: by hs-out-0708.google.com with SMTP id 54so880249hsz.8 for ; Sat, 08 Mar 2008 10:04:13 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.141.37.8 with SMTP id p8mr2007686rvj.178.1204999452923; Sat, 08 Mar 2008 10:04:12 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.140.127.12 with HTTP; Sat, 08 Mar 2008 10:04:12 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2008 12:04:12 -0600 From: Shawn Walker Subject: Re: Nethack 3.4.3 [PSARC/2008/172 FastTrack timeout 03/11/2008] In-reply-to: <47D2117F.7000107@Sun.Com> Sender: binarycrusader@gmail.com To: John Plocher Cc: Joseph Kowalski , PSARC-ext@sun.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references:x-google-sender-auth; bh=x3vbsxJ2FMKDtk4qVMLsqA6SegY/s8SMKnB45SOCXiw=; b=GdLi0DjEUaWHShhHBu/CstIgMUK8a/NcOS/hxxQQEC8lJSIfTZTknfA8cDuoPBhDfDXfBH2mDn211s2nS/YzsND8Ds0iukAgWlTmj8SFg84m82ZL6NOliJyOCez7SvQLPZyOHz8VIzUZwUILmqmHCv++EFISAC9EjjExFB9aQJY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=dIMO/+f0rcoPGzV+a1OENDGJYA40T9JjKtlN3+85CcwQe5SzjWcwowM4JujGdNPjAAEAxIDW0bhKiT5l0OWvsI/0pfixZoUtEWUf54fGT8k9y71oIMaSGDExpbto2KsDvl/UI9EEzeygDO4+g6lNrH/6mt9s+NKWBEoCQ+F2Grc= X-PMX-Version: 5.2.0.264296 X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== X-Google-Sender-Auth: 095d56afac54dce7 X-Antispam: No, score=-2.6/5.0, scanned in 0.072sec at (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smf-spamd v1.3.1 - http://smfs.sf.net/ References: <20080304214642.GB9130@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <20080307220933.GW9130@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <47D1C6EB.4060406@sun.com> <20080308000040.GZ9130@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <47D1D7BE.1010500@sun.com> <47D1E842.6080800@Sun.COM> <47D1ED25.3010809@sun.com> <47D1F202.5030308@Sun.COM> <47D203CF.7040907@sun.com> <47D2117F.7000107@Sun.Com> Status: RO Content-Length: 1307 On Fri, Mar 7, 2008 at 10:09 PM, John Plocher wrote: > Joseph Kowalski wrote: > > Linux familiarity trumps our internal views about "bin" semantics. > > > Speaking of Linux Distro Hell... > > ... *which* linux are you trying to be familiar with? > > That's the nice thing about linux distros, you can always fine one > to use as an example to prove whatever point you are trying to make. > > The key point here is "on linux, it is generally extremely easy > to find, get and use almost anything that is being developed > in the FOSS world, and on Solaris, it isn't." > > We're not trying to emulate any one distro, but to enable this > "I wanted , so I went and got it and now I'm using it; wow > that was easy" customer reaction. > > Lets not get lost in the weeds... I think you hit on my personal view in all of this John. In trying to become make the system more accessible to other groups of users, we shouldn't lose the ability to improve upon what others have done. If we're forever stuck with certain decisions on the basis of familiarity, how can we innovate compared to them? Cheers, -- Shawn Walker, Software and Systems Analyst http://binarycrusader.blogspot.com/ "To err is human -- and to blame it on a computer is even more so." - Robert Orben From unixconsole@yahoo.com Sat Mar 8 16:54:00 2008 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m290rxFc020359 for ; Sat, 8 Mar 2008 16:54:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m290roPR007863 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-ext@sun.com>; Sun, 9 Mar 2008 00:53:58 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JXF00501UHWBA00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Sat, 08 Mar 2008 17:53:56 -0700 (MST) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.98.43]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JXF00JMBUHWR030@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Sat, 08 Mar 2008 17:53:56 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay42i.sun.com ([192.5.209.72]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m290p61Q012596 for ; Sun, 09 Mar 2008 00:53:55 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mms48es.sun.com ([160.41.221.231] [160.41.221.231]) by relay42i.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-154086 for PSARC-ext@sun.com; Sun, 09 Mar 2008 00:53:55 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay41i.sun.com (relay41i.sun.com [192.5.209.70]) by mms48es.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-1237285 for PSARC-ext@sun.com; Sun, 09 Mar 2008 00:53:55 +0000 (Z) Received: from web30804.mail.mud.yahoo.com ([68.142.200.147] [68.142.200.147]) by relay4i.sun.com id BT-MMP-6042320 for PSARC-ext@sun.com; Sun, 09 Mar 2008 00:53:55 +0000 (Z) Received: (qmail 73549 invoked by uid 60001); Sun, 09 Mar 2008 00:53:54 +0000 Received: from [71.2.176.131] by web30804.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 08 Mar 2008 16:53:53 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2008 16:53:53 -0800 (PST) From: Octave Orgeron Subject: Re: Nethack 3.4.3 [PSARC/2008/172 FastTrack timeout 03/11/2008] To: Shawn Walker , Bart Smaalders Cc: PSARC-ext@sun.com, Joseph Kowalski Message-id: <178362.70959.qm@web30804.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/902.35 YahooMailWebService/0.7.185 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Received:X-Mailer:Date:From:Subject:To:Cc:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Message-ID; b=nf3V8DsMAsRGsbf8nGkgLM0q1yRkEp721jRmBTLmIbqhdLea0ORNOzXiLLIueUh0tStsiz2XBrQfD9CVO+vvNOhiAnnx6Tz8ILPO2ReXSgV1JkLY8zGyVBJhOLXQsZJ7y8M3fQydIRC6/wKg+6DU7Qz4wabDNzV21yGJEGYD+ZY=; X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== X-Antispam: No, score=-2.6/5.0, scanned in 0.220sec at (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smf-spamd v1.3.1 - http://smfs.sf.net/ Status: RO Content-Length: 5355 I have to agree with some of these statements. Making /usr/bin a dumping ground for everything is a bad idea. It kinda goes against the concept of having directories in the first place, don't you think? It makes sense to have privileged commands in /usr/sbin and /sbin, X11 related stuff in /usr/X11, postgres in /usr/postgres, sun cluster in /usr/cluster, CDE in /usr/dt, etc. The point to all of this is compartmentalize things that shouldn't be mixed together. Besides, we already have a place for games, /usr/games! Look at how we deal with java, perl, apache, etc. While emulating Linux may seem like a good idea, ultimately it's a step backwards. It makes it harder to identify the components for larger suites like Gnome, let alone for mysql. It especially makes it harder if people want different versions of a util or product installed. If the idea is to have everything in the /usr/bin path to make it easy, that really won't solve any issues. Users will still have to modify their $PATH if they want to use a different version of any given tool. It would be nice to see things like staroffice, mysql, gnome, etc separated back out under /usr (i.e. /usr/staroffice, /usr/mysql, /usr/gnome, etc.). We also have to keep in mind that people are using containers and may want to be specific about which directories under /usr are loop-back mounted. Dumping every tool under /usr/bin will make that impossible. On the other hand, I do think some of the directories, such as /usr/sfw need to be deprecated and the items inside moved out into more appropriate directories under /usr. Perhaps some more discussions on the placement of software is in order? *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Octave J. Orgeron Solaris Systems Engineer http://www.opensolaris.org/os/community/sysadmin/ http://unixconsole.blogspot.com unixconsole@yahoo.com *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* ----- Original Message ---- From: Shawn Walker To: Bart Smaalders Cc: PSARC-ext@sun.com; Joseph Kowalski Sent: Saturday, March 8, 2008 12:00:19 PM Subject: Re: Nethack 3.4.3 [PSARC/2008/172 FastTrack timeout 03/11/2008] On Fri, Mar 7, 2008 at 7:55 PM, Bart Smaalders wrote: > Joseph Kowalski wrote: > > Bart Smaalders wrote: > >> /usr/bin/ contains: > >> > >> gnect > >> gnibbles > >> gnobots > >> gnome-sudoku > >> gnotravex > >> gnomine > >> gnotski > > Thanks for the information. > > > > It provides more justification that we are just giving lipservice to > > Linux familiarity. We "just know better", more politely termed NIH. > > > > Yes, Jim did talk about sorting by some arbitrary criteria. As I > > said in my last mail, there are several camps around this and we > > will have this discussion again and again. Its not the important > > issue, Linux familiarity is. > > > > It is interesting to note, that the discussion often is about > > what (historically and somewhat well defined semanticall) "bin" > > something belongs in. I seem to recall a lot of items which seemed > > to be fit in /usr/sbin (by the endorsed semantic) were proposed > > to be placed in /usr/bin, because that's where they can be found > > on Linux. > > No. > > We tried to come to some sort of closure on this when someone derailed > my nmap case, and articulate a clear set of rules... but it was insisted > upon that the case not set precedent. > > As far as I'm concerned, the logic is simple: > > 1) if only root can use the command, it belongs in /usr/sbin which is > in root's default path. Don't you mean "if only a privileged user"? :-) > 2) If the command is generally useful, it belongs in /usr/bin. > As we repeatedly discussed during the Enabling Serendipitous Discovery case, > placing commands in separate directories does very little good, and tends to > do harm. The only thing that bothers me about it is the inevitable naming conflicts and the slow, but inevitable performance degradation, and information overload caused by having tens of thousands of executables all in the same directory. The whole /usr/bin thing on GNU/Linux distributions is something I've never been happy about since I started using it in 1995/1996. However, most GNU/Linux folks seem to treat $PATH as anathema. I'm not sure how to have a well organised system and avoid using $PATH at the same time if everything is going to get dumped in /usr/bin. Most of the time, if I'm running a game, it isn't going to be from the command line -- it would be from a shortcut on my "desktop." Do I really want game executables polluting my "finger memory" via tab-completion as I'm trying to actually administrate the system? I know there's no easy answer here, but I do wonder where this is all headed. -- Shawn Walker, Software and Systems Analyst http://binarycrusader.blogspot.com/ "To err is human -- and to blame it on a computer is even more so." - Robert Orben _______________________________________________ opensolaris-arc mailing list opensolaris-arc@opensolaris.org ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ From danek.duvall@sun.com Sun Mar 9 00:11:41 2008 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m298BfSC029362 for ; Sun, 9 Mar 2008 00:11:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m298BfjU007820; Sun, 9 Mar 2008 00:11:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JXG00J01ERHKM00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Sun, 09 Mar 2008 00:11:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from dm-sfbay-01.sfbay.sun.com ([129.145.155.118]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JXG00FLLERG7GE0@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Sun, 09 Mar 2008 00:11:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from zruty.sfbay.sun.com (zruty.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.168.40]) by dm-sfbay-01.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m298Bd8k044008; Sun, 09 Mar 2008 00:11:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from zruty.sfbay.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zruty.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.2+Sun/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m298BdQ7025118; Sun, 09 Mar 2008 00:11:39 -0800 (PST) Received: (from dduvall@localhost) by zruty.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.2+Sun/8.14.2/Submit) id m298Bdkh025117; Sun, 09 Mar 2008 00:11:39 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2008 00:11:39 -0800 From: Danek Duvall Subject: Re: Nethack 3.4.3 [PSARC/2008/172 FastTrack timeout 03/11/2008] In-reply-to: <178362.70959.qm@web30804.mail.mud.yahoo.com> To: Octave Orgeron Cc: Shawn Walker , Bart Smaalders , PSARC-ext@sun.com, Joseph Kowalski Message-id: <20080309081139.GD16041@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <178362.70959.qm@web30804.mail.mud.yahoo.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.16 (2007-06-27) Status: RO Content-Length: 3157 On Sat, Mar 08, 2008 at 04:53:53PM -0800, Octave Orgeron wrote: > I have to agree with some of these statements. Making /usr/bin a dumping > ground for everything is a bad idea. It kinda goes against the concept of > having directories in the first place, don't you think? Directories in general? No. But what else do you mean? > It makes sense to have privileged commands in /usr/sbin and /sbin, X11 > related stuff in /usr/X11, postgres in /usr/postgres, sun cluster in > /usr/cluster, CDE in /usr/dt, etc. The point to all of this is > compartmentalize things that shouldn't be mixed together. Why shouldn't they be mixed together? What value do you derive from siloing these components? > Besides, we already have a place for games, /usr/games! Look at how we > deal with java, perl, apache, etc. We do this for java, perl, and apache, because the project teams integrating these components have made the case that multiple simultaneously installed versions are generally required. At least in the case of java and perl (as well as mysql and postgres, which follow similar patterns), they're linked into /usr/bin, too. Are you suggesting that they not be there? > While emulating Linux may seem like a good idea, ultimately it's a step > backwards. It makes it harder to identify the components for larger > suites like Gnome, let alone for mysql. Is the path to the executable the most appropriate way of determining what subsystem a particular file belongs to? I would argue that querying the packaging system for this information is the soundest place for it. > We also have to keep in mind that people are using containers and may > want to be specific about which directories under /usr are loop-back > mounted. Dumping every tool under /usr/bin will make that impossible. Okay. So how fine a granularity do you propose? Saying that everything goes into /usr, excepting only components requiring multiple versions (and then a default of some sort gets linked into the appropriate places in /usr) is a pretty simple rule to follow. So is the opposite extreme, placing each component in its own subdirectory of /usr. But if neither of those rules is acceptable, we still need some sort of bright line to guide project teams, or we'll take each ARC case as it comes through and spend weeks arguing about it, which, cumultaively, is a waste of everyone's time. I would suggest that the translucent filesystem approach Bart's been talking about is a better way of dealing with the zones issue you raise -- each local zone inherits from the global zone, but then you can uninstall selected packages as desired. The only other problem with sticking everything in /usr/bin I can see is the potential for name duplication. But I don't think this happens very often in practice, if for no other reason than so much of the software that might go there has already had to deal with this issue on Linux, and so has chosen a unique (if often pretty wacky) name. So is there any other problem you see being solved by not putting everything in /usr/bin? Other than there simply being more things in there than there were in 1973? Danek From unixconsole@yahoo.com Sun Mar 9 08:20:40 2008 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m29FKdm2006720 for ; Sun, 9 Mar 2008 08:20:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m29FKbLk002934 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-ext@sun.com>; Sun, 9 Mar 2008 15:20:38 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JXG00D09YMDNE00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Sun, 09 Mar 2008 09:20:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sca-ea-mail-3.sun.com ([192.18.43.21]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JXG00DMWYMCWRA0@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Sun, 09 Mar 2008 09:20:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay43i.sun.com ([192.5.209.74]) by sca-ea-mail-3.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m29F0aVt009663 for ; Sun, 09 Mar 2008 15:20:36 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mms48es.sun.com ([160.41.221.231] [160.41.221.231]) by relay43i.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-194207 for PSARC-ext@sun.com; Sun, 09 Mar 2008 15:20:36 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay44i.sun.com (relay44i.sun.com [192.5.209.118]) by mms48es.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-1433015 for PSARC-ext@sun.com; Sun, 09 Mar 2008 15:20:35 +0000 (Z) Received: from web30801.mail.mud.yahoo.com ([68.142.200.144] [68.142.200.144]) by relay4i.sun.com id BT-MMP-8738491 for PSARC-ext@sun.com; Sun, 09 Mar 2008 15:20:35 +0000 (Z) Received: (qmail 50212 invoked by uid 60001); Sun, 09 Mar 2008 15:20:35 +0000 Received: from [71.2.176.131] by web30801.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 09 Mar 2008 08:20:34 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2008 08:20:34 -0700 (PDT) From: Octave Orgeron Subject: Re: Nethack 3.4.3 [PSARC/2008/172 FastTrack timeout 03/11/2008] To: Danek Duvall Cc: Shawn Walker , Bart Smaalders , PSARC-ext@sun.com, Joseph Kowalski Message-id: <63874.50200.qm@web30801.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/902.35 YahooMailWebService/0.7.185 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Date:From:Subject:To:Cc:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Message-ID; b=IXW4eAbX4cnCFHIkuBEtLkf8VKgPjP3oJphmK9IduaB7FmCpsm7/cE7gufPG8NbQc7LcyvUuyS0MvvokvnKYLlUEhXTy0IfkFpBcHWWwkgHlirRuMorVMo39gN2GpAbxSrLQqfF0JcTF3q23EQBjGxT4Ganx1nsmbt0mz3tgY6s=; X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== X-YMail-OSG: VFKxk9QVM1klVs0zJz814ahmh83wKbBokeiy8qGD83QicJZsarqV6DnLyOfwU4GuavkBTy6ax5Xhbca7GXoej6SgI2XuwNN9YvhO9pAeE7I1oq3uaMM- X-Antispam: No, score=-2.6/5.0, scanned in 0.174sec at (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smf-spamd v1.3.1 - http://smfs.sf.net/ Status: RO Content-Length: 8627 Hi, > Okay. So how fine a granularity do you propose? Saying that everything > goes into /usr, excepting only components requiring multiple versions (and > then a default of some sort gets linked into the appropriate places in > /usr) is a pretty simple rule to follow. So is the opposite extreme, > placing each component in its own subdirectory of /usr. But if neither of > those rules is acceptable, we still need some sort of bright line to guide > project teams, or we'll take each ARC case as it comes through and spend > weeks arguing about it, which, cumultaively, is a waste of everyone's time. The idea of having major components (X11, Gnome, Postgres, Mysql, Perl, PHP, etc.) with their own directory structure to support multiple versions makes the most sense. I think the distinction of what goes into /usr/bin by having the binary physically located there or to have it sym-linked in needs to be discussed. For example, it makes a lot of sense for common utilities to be located in /usr/bin (mv, ls, rm, etc.). However, we already deal with multiple versions of these tools today (gnu -> /usr/gnu, xpg4 -> /usr/xpg4, xpg6 -> /usr/xgp6, BSD -> /usr/ucb). This makes a lot of sense because people can modify their $PATH to get the desired behavior. This is critical for users and applications. Having these different versions of commands in /usr/bin would be a nightmare to support both for developers and for users. Having symlinks for the latest version of java, perl, etc in /usr/bin makes a lot of sense because it's easier for users and apps to have the latest version in the default path. If they need to use a different version, they can either change the symlink or directly use the version path (i.e. /usr/perl5/5.6.1/bin). This makes a lot of sense. I don't think it would make sense to have every utility and application with its own /usr/// and use something like the slashpackage concept. It's powerful and flexible, but requires a lot of careful considerations and poses greater risks. But doing this for larger toolsets and applications as above makes a lot of sense and gives enough flexibility. It also makes sense for OS administrative/privileged commands to be in /usr/sbin. While things would fail for normal users due to lack of exec privs, having them in a separate directory, /usr/sbin, is good from an organizational and security point of view for sysadmins. Besides, we don't want some freeware tool with an exploit nuking /usr/bin and preventing the administrative commands from working because they were in the same directory. Let alone for someone to accidentally change the perms on /usr/bin and open a huge can of worms. (that does bring up the idea that perhaps certain directories should be mounted read-only to begin with?). The translucent filesystem concept sounds interesting for solving some of the issues with containers. Is there more info on this? So it sounds like we need some guidelines on what gets into /usr/bin to prevent confusion, arguments, and pollution of the /usr/bin name space. Perhaps something simple like this.. 1. If an app is to go into /usr/bin, it must meet these requirements: - It is not an administrative command that requires privs. - Its name does not conflict with a standard command already located in /usr/bin - It does not conflict with the default Solaris behavior (GNU vs SYSV, BSD vs SYSV). If so, it should be located in the appropriate /usr/ name space. - It does not require the support of multiple versions. - It is not a large suite of software (i.e. X11, OpenWindows, Postgres, MySQL, Apache, Sun Cluster, etc.).If so, it should be located in /usr/// directory. 2. If an app is to be sym-linked into /usr/bin, it must meet these requirements: - It must be appropriate for general consumption by users and other applications (i.e. mv, ls , pgrep, soffice, firefox, gcc, cc) - It is part of a larger suite of software, located in /usr//, that is appropriate for general consumption by users and other applications (i.e. StarOffice, Gnome applications, Firefox, gcc, cc, perl, java). This does not include application level administrative/priv binaries (i.e. Xsun, httpd, scinstall, gdm, xdm). That is just off the top of my head. But I think it's a good start for defining the guidelines that determine what goes into /usr/bin. This does bring up other areas to consider.. things like webmin being in /usr/sfw, dhcpmgr and printmgr being in /usr/sadm, etc. Some house cleaning may be in order for those directories as well. *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Octave J. Orgeron Solaris Systems Engineer http://www.opensolaris.org/os/community/sysadmin/ http://unixconsole.blogspot.com unixconsole@yahoo.com *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* ----- Original Message ---- From: Danek Duvall To: Octave Orgeron Cc: Shawn Walker ; Bart Smaalders ; PSARC-ext@sun.com; Joseph Kowalski Sent: Sunday, March 9, 2008 3:11:39 AM Subject: Re: Nethack 3.4.3 [PSARC/2008/172 FastTrack timeout 03/11/2008] On Sat, Mar 08, 2008 at 04:53:53PM -0800, Octave Orgeron wrote: > I have to agree with some of these statements. Making /usr/bin a dumping > ground for everything is a bad idea. It kinda goes against the concept of > having directories in the first place, don't you think? Directories in general? No. But what else do you mean? > It makes sense to have privileged commands in /usr/sbin and /sbin, X11 > related stuff in /usr/X11, postgres in /usr/postgres, sun cluster in > /usr/cluster, CDE in /usr/dt, etc. The point to all of this is > compartmentalize things that shouldn't be mixed together. Why shouldn't they be mixed together? What value do you derive from siloing these components? > Besides, we already have a place for games, /usr/games! Look at how we > deal with java, perl, apache, etc. We do this for java, perl, and apache, because the project teams integrating these components have made the case that multiple simultaneously installed versions are generally required. At least in the case of java and perl (as well as mysql and postgres, which follow similar patterns), they're linked into /usr/bin, too. Are you suggesting that they not be there? > While emulating Linux may seem like a good idea, ultimately it's a step > backwards. It makes it harder to identify the components for larger > suites like Gnome, let alone for mysql. Is the path to the executable the most appropriate way of determining what subsystem a particular file belongs to? I would argue that querying the packaging system for this information is the soundest place for it. > We also have to keep in mind that people are using containers and may > want to be specific about which directories under /usr are loop-back > mounted. Dumping every tool under /usr/bin will make that impossible. Okay. So how fine a granularity do you propose? Saying that everything goes into /usr, excepting only components requiring multiple versions (and then a default of some sort gets linked into the appropriate places in /usr) is a pretty simple rule to follow. So is the opposite extreme, placing each component in its own subdirectory of /usr. But if neither of those rules is acceptable, we still need some sort of bright line to guide project teams, or we'll take each ARC case as it comes through and spend weeks arguing about it, which, cumultaively, is a waste of everyone's time. I would suggest that the translucent filesystem approach Bart's been talking about is a better way of dealing with the zones issue you raise -- each local zone inherits from the global zone, but then you can uninstall selected packages as desired. The only other problem with sticking everything in /usr/bin I can see is the potential for name duplication. But I don't think this happens very often in practice, if for no other reason than so much of the software that might go there has already had to deal with this issue on Linux, and so has chosen a unique (if often pretty wacky) name. So is there any other problem you see being solved by not putting everything in /usr/bin? Other than there simply being more things in there than there were in 1973? Danek ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ From sacadmin Sun Mar 9 09:06:59 2008 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m29G6wx5007149 for ; Sun, 9 Mar 2008 09:06:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m29G6lKK015425; Sun, 9 Mar 2008 16:06:55 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JXH00G030RHUV00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Sun, 09 Mar 2008 09:06:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dm-sfbay-01.sfbay.sun.com ([129.145.155.118]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JXH00HRX0RHTG80@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Sun, 09 Mar 2008 09:06:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zruty.sfbay.sun.com (zruty.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.168.40]) by dm-sfbay-01.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m29G6eME021674; Sun, 09 Mar 2008 09:06:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zruty.sfbay.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zruty.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.2+Sun/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m29G6evZ025438; Sun, 09 Mar 2008 09:06:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from dduvall@localhost) by zruty.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.2+Sun/8.14.2/Submit) id m29G6dYI025437; Sun, 09 Mar 2008 09:06:39 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2008 09:06:39 -0700 From: Danek Duvall Subject: rules for /usr/bin (was Re: Nethack 3.4.3 [PSARC/2008/172 ...]) In-reply-to: <63874.50200.qm@web30801.mail.mud.yahoo.com> To: Octave Orgeron Cc: Shawn Walker , Bart Smaalders , opensolaris-arc@sun.com, Joseph Kowalski Message-id: <20080309160639.GE16041@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <63874.50200.qm@web30801.mail.mud.yahoo.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.16 (2007-06-27) Status: RO Content-Length: 5948 [ Moving this to opensolaris-arc (and bcc'ing psarc-members), which I believe is the best external equivalent to psarc-members. Feel free to move it elsewhere if appropriate. ] On Sun, Mar 09, 2008 at 08:20:34AM -0700, Octave Orgeron wrote: > The idea of having major components (X11, Gnome, Postgres, Mysql, Perl, > PHP, etc.) with their own directory structure to support multiple > versions makes the most sense. There's not much else you can do, short of requiring that only one version be on the system at a time. Which we're doing with gnome. And I think X11 is too deeply ingrained at this point in people's consciousness as being under /usr/Xsomething that it would be hard to move (though I'll note for completeness sake that at least gentoo linux links /usr/X11R6 to /usr). I'm certainly not going to argue with the multiple versions thing, except perhaps that multiple versions are required for as many things as we prepare the system for. > However, we already deal with multiple versions of these tools today (gnu > -> /usr/gnu, xpg4 -> /usr/xpg4, xpg6 -> /usr/xgp6, BSD -> /usr/ucb). The only reason we do that for these bits is because of naming conflicts. The definition of what can go into /usr/gnu, as per PSARC/2007/047, includes things that would conflict with pre-existing executables in /usr/bin. Note also that these aren't split by functionality, but by "personality", so it's not really an argument for things like gnome, cde, games, etc. > It also makes sense for OS administrative/privileged commands to be in > /usr/sbin. Yup. No one's arguing against that, though the dividing line can sometimes be a bit fuzzy. > Besides, we don't want some freeware tool with an exploit nuking /usr/bin > and preventing the administrative commands from working because they were > in the same directory. Eh? A "freeware tool with an exploit" could wipe /usr/sbin just as easily as it could wipe /usr/bin. So can a couple of fat fingers. > (that does bring up the idea that perhaps certain directories should be > mounted read-only to begin with?). In a non-whole-root zone, /usr is read-only, as it is on diskless clients. There are good arguments to be made for doing this on all systems, and the ARCs try to remind project teams never to stick anything writable under /usr. > The translucent filesystem concept sounds interesting for solving some of > the issues with containers. Is there more info on this? No, unfortunately not. Though come Monday, perhaps Bart will be convinced to share at length. > So it sounds like we need some guidelines on what gets into /usr/bin to > prevent confusion, arguments, and pollution of the /usr/bin name space. > > Perhaps something simple like this.. > > 1. If an app is to go into /usr/bin, it must meet these requirements: > - It is not an administrative command that requires privs. > - Its name does not conflict with a standard command already located in /usr/bin > - It does not conflict with the default Solaris behavior (GNU vs SYSV, > BSD vs SYSV). If so, it should be located in the appropriate > /usr/ name space. > - It does not require the support of multiple versions. > - It is not a large suite of software (i.e. X11, OpenWindows, Postgres, > MySQL, Apache, Sun Cluster, etc.).If so, it should be located in > /usr/// directory. None of this is particularly controversial (though I'd say your point about multiple versions probably should be worded more along the lines of "components requiring multiple versions must install all versions in parallel hierarchies, and link the most appropriate one into the major system directories where serendipitous discovery applies"). It's also not clear how "large suite of software" might be defined. Apache isn't that big, really, and would quite easily fit into the normal places. I'd also argue that having three copies of apache on the system is pretty silly. Even two, this long after 2.x came out, is silly. But that's a different argument. And there's nothing in that list that would say that nethack or fortune go anywhere other than /usr/bin. > 2. If an app is to be sym-linked into /usr/bin, it must meet these requirements: > - It must be appropriate for general consumption by users and other > applications (i.e. mv, ls , pgrep, soffice, firefox, gcc, cc) Again, that can be tough to define. I wouldn't consider compilers appropriate for general consumption, for instance. Indeed, I'd say that games are more likely to be used by more people. > - It is part of a larger suite of software, located in /usr/ name>/, that is appropriate for general consumption by users and > other applications (i.e. StarOffice, Gnome applications, Firefox, gcc, > cc, perl, java). I don't think this flows from the beginning of rule 2. It implies that there are other things not found in the standard places which shouldn't be linked into the standard places -- either a smaller suite of software, or one not located in /usr/app/version, but you've not proposed such a thing, and it basically doesn't exist. Do you have a counterexample in mind? > This does not include application level administrative/priv binaries > (i.e. Xsun, httpd, scinstall, gdm, xdm). But perhaps those administrative executables should be linked into /usr/sbin. As far as this argument is concerned, /usr/bin, /usr/sbin, /usr/lib/libfoo.X, and /usr/include/foo.h are all equivalent -- they're the "normal" place for components. > This does bring up other areas to consider.. things like webmin being in > /usr/sfw, dhcpmgr and printmgr being in /usr/sadm, etc. Some house > cleaning may be in order for those directories as well. /usr/sadm? It was a terrible mistake to put smc, dhcpmgr, and printmgr there in the first place. And why does webmin belong in /usr/sfw? Being a service, it's almost completely confined to a single, project-private directory. Danek From sacadmin Sun Mar 9 09:10:40 2008 Received: from sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m29GAdjL007162 for ; Sun, 9 Mar 2008 09:10:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m29GAKFZ006929; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 00:10:36 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JXH004010XLP600@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Sun, 09 Mar 2008 09:10:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dm-sfbay-02.sfbay.sun.com ([129.146.11.31]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JXH00K0G0XL8MD0@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Sun, 09 Mar 2008 09:10:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zruty.sfbay.sun.com (zruty.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.168.40]) by dm-sfbay-02.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m29GAWUb022265; Sun, 09 Mar 2008 09:10:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zruty.sfbay.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zruty.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.2+Sun/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m29GAWcG025478; Sun, 09 Mar 2008 09:10:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from dduvall@localhost) by zruty.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.2+Sun/8.14.2/Submit) id m29GAWJx025477; Sun, 09 Mar 2008 09:10:32 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2008 09:10:32 -0700 From: Danek Duvall Subject: Re: rules for /usr/bin (was Re: Nethack 3.4.3 [PSARC/2008/172 ...]) In-reply-to: <20080309160639.GE16041@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> To: Octave Orgeron Cc: Shawn Walker , Bart Smaalders , opensolaris-arc@opensolaris.org, Joseph Kowalski Message-id: <20080309161032.GG16041@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <63874.50200.qm@web30801.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20080309160639.GE16041@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.16 (2007-06-27) Status: RO Content-Length: 6019 [ ... And resending this opensolaris-arc@*opensolaris.org*. ] [ Moving this to opensolaris-arc (and bcc'ing psarc-members), which I believe is the best external equivalent to psarc-members. Feel free to move it elsewhere if appropriate. ] On Sun, Mar 09, 2008 at 08:20:34AM -0700, Octave Orgeron wrote: > The idea of having major components (X11, Gnome, Postgres, Mysql, Perl, > PHP, etc.) with their own directory structure to support multiple > versions makes the most sense. There's not much else you can do, short of requiring that only one version be on the system at a time. Which we're doing with gnome. And I think X11 is too deeply ingrained at this point in people's consciousness as being under /usr/Xsomething that it would be hard to move (though I'll note for completeness sake that at least gentoo linux links /usr/X11R6 to /usr). I'm certainly not going to argue with the multiple versions thing, except perhaps that multiple versions are required for as many things as we prepare the system for. > However, we already deal with multiple versions of these tools today (gnu > -> /usr/gnu, xpg4 -> /usr/xpg4, xpg6 -> /usr/xgp6, BSD -> /usr/ucb). The only reason we do that for these bits is because of naming conflicts. The definition of what can go into /usr/gnu, as per PSARC/2007/047, includes things that would conflict with pre-existing executables in /usr/bin. Note also that these aren't split by functionality, but by "personality", so it's not really an argument for things like gnome, cde, games, etc. > It also makes sense for OS administrative/privileged commands to be in > /usr/sbin. Yup. No one's arguing against that, though the dividing line can sometimes be a bit fuzzy. > Besides, we don't want some freeware tool with an exploit nuking /usr/bin > and preventing the administrative commands from working because they were > in the same directory. Eh? A "freeware tool with an exploit" could wipe /usr/sbin just as easily as it could wipe /usr/bin. So can a couple of fat fingers. > (that does bring up the idea that perhaps certain directories should be > mounted read-only to begin with?). In a non-whole-root zone, /usr is read-only, as it is on diskless clients. There are good arguments to be made for doing this on all systems, and the ARCs try to remind project teams never to stick anything writable under /usr. > The translucent filesystem concept sounds interesting for solving some of > the issues with containers. Is there more info on this? No, unfortunately not. Though come Monday, perhaps Bart will be convinced to share at length. > So it sounds like we need some guidelines on what gets into /usr/bin to > prevent confusion, arguments, and pollution of the /usr/bin name space. > > Perhaps something simple like this.. > > 1. If an app is to go into /usr/bin, it must meet these requirements: > - It is not an administrative command that requires privs. > - Its name does not conflict with a standard command already located in /usr/bin > - It does not conflict with the default Solaris behavior (GNU vs SYSV, > BSD vs SYSV). If so, it should be located in the appropriate > /usr/ name space. > - It does not require the support of multiple versions. > - It is not a large suite of software (i.e. X11, OpenWindows, Postgres, > MySQL, Apache, Sun Cluster, etc.).If so, it should be located in > /usr/// directory. None of this is particularly controversial (though I'd say your point about multiple versions probably should be worded more along the lines of "components requiring multiple versions must install all versions in parallel hierarchies, and link the most appropriate one into the major system directories where serendipitous discovery applies"). It's also not clear how "large suite of software" might be defined. Apache isn't that big, really, and would quite easily fit into the normal places. I'd also argue that having three copies of apache on the system is pretty silly. Even two, this long after 2.x came out, is silly. But that's a different argument. And there's nothing in that list that would say that nethack or fortune go anywhere other than /usr/bin. > 2. If an app is to be sym-linked into /usr/bin, it must meet these requirements: > - It must be appropriate for general consumption by users and other > applications (i.e. mv, ls , pgrep, soffice, firefox, gcc, cc) Again, that can be tough to define. I wouldn't consider compilers appropriate for general consumption, for instance. Indeed, I'd say that games are more likely to be used by more people. > - It is part of a larger suite of software, located in /usr/ name>/, that is appropriate for general consumption by users and > other applications (i.e. StarOffice, Gnome applications, Firefox, gcc, > cc, perl, java). I don't think this flows from the beginning of rule 2. It implies that there are other things not found in the standard places which shouldn't be linked into the standard places -- either a smaller suite of software, or one not located in /usr/app/version, but you've not proposed such a thing, and it basically doesn't exist. Do you have a counterexample in mind? > This does not include application level administrative/priv binaries > (i.e. Xsun, httpd, scinstall, gdm, xdm). But perhaps those administrative executables should be linked into /usr/sbin. As far as this argument is concerned, /usr/bin, /usr/sbin, /usr/lib/libfoo.X, and /usr/include/foo.h are all equivalent -- they're the "normal" place for components. > This does bring up other areas to consider.. things like webmin being in > /usr/sfw, dhcpmgr and printmgr being in /usr/sadm, etc. Some house > cleaning may be in order for those directories as well. /usr/sadm? It was a terrible mistake to put smc, dhcpmgr, and printmgr there in the first place. And why does webmin belong in /usr/sfw? Being a service, it's almost completely confined to a single, project-private directory. Danek From gdamore@sun.com Sun Mar 9 09:47:37 2008 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m29Glacv007291 for ; Sun, 9 Mar 2008 09:47:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m29GlXVM024790; Sun, 9 Mar 2008 16:47:34 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JXH00K012N9UX00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Sun, 09 Mar 2008 10:47:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sca-es-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.43.132]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JXH00DIE2N8WYC0@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Sun, 09 Mar 2008 10:47:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: from fe-sfbay-09.sun.com ([192.18.43.129]) by sca-es-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m29GlWbp010531; Sun, 09 Mar 2008 09:47:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.fe-sfbay-09.sun.com by fe-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0JXH000012G7BN00@fe-sfbay-09.sun.com> (original mail from gdamore@sun.com) ; Sun, 09 Mar 2008 09:47:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.251.106] ([76.174.83.55]) by fe-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0JXH00GHS2N7C6D0@fe-sfbay-09.sun.com>; Sun, 09 Mar 2008 09:47:32 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2008 09:45:10 -0700 From: "Garrett D'Amore" Subject: Re: Nethack 3.4.3 [PSARC/2008/172 FastTrack timeout 03/11/2008] In-reply-to: <20080309081139.GD16041@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> Sender: Garrett.Damore@sun.com To: Danek Duvall Cc: Octave Orgeron , Shawn Walker , Bart Smaalders , PSARC-ext@sun.com, Joseph Kowalski Message-id: <47D41416.8070505@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <178362.70959.qm@web30804.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20080309081139.GD16041@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (X11/20071023) Status: RO Content-Length: 4367 Danek Duvall wrote: > On Sat, Mar 08, 2008 at 04:53:53PM -0800, Octave Orgeron wrote: > > >> I have to agree with some of these statements. Making /usr/bin a dumping >> ground for everything is a bad idea. It kinda goes against the concept of >> having directories in the first place, don't you think? >> > > Directories in general? No. But what else do you mean? > > >> It makes sense to have privileged commands in /usr/sbin and /sbin, X11 >> related stuff in /usr/X11, postgres in /usr/postgres, sun cluster in >> /usr/cluster, CDE in /usr/dt, etc. The point to all of this is >> compartmentalize things that shouldn't be mixed together. >> > > Why shouldn't they be mixed together? What value do you derive from > siloing these components? > > >> Besides, we already have a place for games, /usr/games! Look at how we >> deal with java, perl, apache, etc. >> > > We do this for java, perl, and apache, because the project teams > integrating these components have made the case that multiple > simultaneously installed versions are generally required. At least in the > case of java and perl (as well as mysql and postgres, which follow similar > patterns), they're linked into /usr/bin, too. Are you suggesting that they > not be there? > > >> While emulating Linux may seem like a good idea, ultimately it's a step >> backwards. It makes it harder to identify the components for larger >> suites like Gnome, let alone for mysql. >> > > Is the path to the executable the most appropriate way of determining > what subsystem a particular file belongs to? I would argue that querying > the packaging system for this information is the soundest place for it. > > >> We also have to keep in mind that people are using containers and may >> want to be specific about which directories under /usr are loop-back >> mounted. Dumping every tool under /usr/bin will make that impossible. >> > > Okay. So how fine a granularity do you propose? Saying that everything > goes into /usr, excepting only components requiring multiple versions (and > then a default of some sort gets linked into the appropriate places in > /usr) is a pretty simple rule to follow. So is the opposite extreme, > placing each component in its own subdirectory of /usr. But if neither of > those rules is acceptable, we still need some sort of bright line to guide > project teams, or we'll take each ARC case as it comes through and spend > weeks arguing about it, which, cumultaively, is a waste of everyone's time. > > I would suggest that the translucent filesystem approach Bart's been > talking about is a better way of dealing with the zones issue you raise -- > each local zone inherits from the global zone, but then you can uninstall > selected packages as desired. > > The only other problem with sticking everything in /usr/bin I can see is > the potential for name duplication. But I don't think this happens very > often in practice, if for no other reason than so much of the software that > might go there has already had to deal with this issue on Linux, and so has > chosen a unique (if often pretty wacky) name. > There's another performance aspect though. Searching through directories is proportional to the number of entires in it. One could argue that the most frequently accessed stuff should be in /usr/bin, and other, less frequently accessed stuff, could live in directories that appeared later in the search path, or were more easily pruned from user's paths. For one search, it probably doesn't matter much. But taken in the aggregate, I suspect that the additional search time can add up. Of course, mitigating this concern is the fact that many (most?) interactive shells hash the search path -- getting O(1) search time instead of O(n). But does exec() also take the hit, to find a directory entry, even when fully qualified? I'd be a fan of fewer things in /usr/bin, and perhaps longer search paths for users (/usr/bin, /usr/gnome/bin, /usr/X11/bin, /usr/games (or /usr/games/bin), etc. I'm not sure when the last time we modified the default search path for users was, though.... -- Garrett > So is there any other problem you see being solved by not putting > everything in /usr/bin? Other than there simply being more things in there > than there were in 1973? > > Danek > From James.Walker@sun.com Sun Mar 9 10:47:15 2008 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m29HlEig009107 for ; Sun, 9 Mar 2008 10:47:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m29Hl4Sa010164; Sun, 9 Mar 2008 17:47:12 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JXH005055ELDI00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Sun, 09 Mar 2008 10:47:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com ([192.18.98.34]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JXH00HFE5ELTGE0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Sun, 09 Mar 2008 10:47:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fe-amer-10.sun.com ([192.18.109.80]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m29Hl8dk021585; Sun, 09 Mar 2008 17:47:08 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.mail-amer.sun.com by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0JXH00F015B2RG00@mail-amer.sun.com> (original mail from James.Walker@Sun.COM); Sun, 09 Mar 2008 11:47:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from c-67-166-23-56.hsd1.co.comcast.net ([129.150.32.222]) by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0JXH00FF95EHFS00@mail-amer.sun.com>; Sun, 09 Mar 2008 11:47:07 -0600 (MDT) Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2008 11:47:05 -0600 From: Jim Walker Subject: Re: Nethack 3.4.3 [PSARC/2008/172 FastTrack timeout 03/11/2008] In-reply-to: <47D41416.8070505@sun.com> Sender: James.Walker@sun.com To: "Garrett D'Amore" Cc: Danek Duvall , Octave Orgeron , Shawn Walker , Bart Smaalders , PSARC-ext@sun.com, Joseph Kowalski Reply-to: James.Walker@sun.com Message-id: <47D42299.1080309@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <178362.70959.qm@web30804.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20080309081139.GD16041@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <47D41416.8070505@sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Macintosh/20071031) Status: RO Content-Length: 885 Garrett D'Amore wrote: > I'd be a fan of fewer things in /usr/bin, and perhaps longer search > paths for users (/usr/bin, /usr/gnome/bin, /usr/X11/bin, /usr/games > (or /usr/games/bin), etc. I like having a shorter path to get my job done. I don't want to have to change my path after every release. > I'm not sure when the last time we modified the default search path > for users was, though.... I think this is the key point. Do you want to update the default search path for users every few months until the execution directory namespace settles down, or do you want to keep adding things to the current directories? BTW. When would the execution directory namespace settle down? Would it become as long as "ls /usr/bin"? How long can paths be? How many things would break when the default path is 1k long? How much time will users waste reviewing what's in their path? Jim From John.Plocher@sun.com Sun Mar 9 14:44:58 2008 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m29LiwAT013760 for ; Sun, 9 Mar 2008 14:44:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m29Lirdj009110; Sun, 9 Mar 2008 21:44:56 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JXH00B05GEURH00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Sun, 09 Mar 2008 14:44:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sca-es-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.43.132]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JXH00DD9GEUNO70@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Sun, 09 Mar 2008 14:44:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fe-sfbay-09.sun.com ([192.18.43.129]) by sca-es-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m29LispM015601; Sun, 09 Mar 2008 14:44:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.fe-sfbay-09.sun.com by fe-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0JXH00H01GCRSM00@fe-sfbay-09.sun.com> (original mail from John.Plocher@Sun.COM); Sun, 09 Mar 2008 14:44:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wp668.local ([208.74.177.212]) by fe-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0JXH000R3GETX580@fe-sfbay-09.sun.com>; Sun, 09 Mar 2008 14:44:53 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2008 14:44:53 -0700 From: John Plocher Subject: Re: Nethack 3.4.3 [PSARC/2008/172 FastTrack timeout 03/11/2008] In-reply-to: <47D42299.1080309@sun.com> Sender: John.Plocher@sun.com To: James.Walker@sun.com Cc: "Garrett D'Amore" , Danek Duvall , Joseph Kowalski , PSARC-ext@sun.com, Bart Smaalders Message-id: <47D45A55.5050004@Sun.Com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <178362.70959.qm@web30804.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20080309081139.GD16041@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <47D41416.8070505@sun.com> <47D42299.1080309@sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.12 (Macintosh/20080213) Status: RO Content-Length: 535 Jim Walker wrote: > BTW. When would the execution directory namespace settle down? If we "fixed" PATH, this could become "no longer a problem". Not to design on the fly, but :-) if we were to extend its semantics to include wildcards, we could have PATH=/usr/bin:/usr/applications/*:... and you would never need to change your PATH setting again... This isn't a serious suggestion (I haven't thought about the ramifications...), but simply an observation that things look different once you get outside the box... -John From jek3@sun.com Sun Mar 9 23:35:08 2008 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m2A6Z7iS024312 for ; Sun, 9 Mar 2008 23:35:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m2A6Z3Vr001204; Sun, 9 Mar 2008 23:35:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JXI00K014YIMT00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 00:35:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: from jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com ([129.146.17.59]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JXI00HOB4YHO110@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 00:35:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [129.150.13.200] (vpn-129-150-13-200.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.13.200]) by jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.2+Sun/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m2A6Z4gt411079; Sun, 09 Mar 2008 23:35:04 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2008 20:32:43 -1000 From: Joseph Kowalski Subject: Re: Nethack 3.4.3 [PSARC/2008/172 FastTrack timeout 03/11/2008] In-reply-to: <47D41416.8070505@sun.com> To: "Garrett D'Amore" Cc: Danek Duvall , Octave Orgeron , Shawn Walker , Bart Smaalders , PSARC-ext@sun.com Message-id: <47D4D60B.7010204@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <178362.70959.qm@web30804.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20080309081139.GD16041@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <47D41416.8070505@sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (X11/20071119) Status: RO Content-Length: 1149 Garrett D'Amore wrote: > I'd be a fan of fewer things in /usr/bin, and perhaps longer search > paths for users (/usr/bin, /usr/gnome/bin, /usr/X11/bin, /usr/games > (or /usr/games/bin), etc. I'm not sure when the last time we modified > the default search path for users was, though.... Interesting example gnome. Everything there is either most commonly used via a menu entry or a script. These aren't typically used by the command line. Seems like the gnome games being in bin was used as an example of what we have purposely placed in /usr/bin. Seems like its a pretty hard stretch to be justified in /usr/bin... Typically launched by a gnome menu -> /usr/gnome/... Seen as a game -> /usr/games Its seems pretty hard to justify /usr/bin as a well considered anwser. > -- Garrett >> So is there any other problem you see being solved by not putting >> everything in /usr/bin? Other than there simply being more things in >> there >> than there were in 1973? It seems that /usr/games was such a place in 1973. Since that was the status-quo, what is the justification for them being moved to /usr/bin? >> Danek - jek3 From jek3@sun.com Sun Mar 9 23:47:15 2008 Received: from sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m2A6lEp5024419 for ; Sun, 9 Mar 2008 23:47:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m2A6l8tV005982; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 14:47:11 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JXI002035ILKN00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Sun, 09 Mar 2008 23:47:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com ([129.146.17.59]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JXI00FGZ5ILEJD0@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Sun, 09 Mar 2008 23:47:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [129.150.13.200] (vpn-129-150-13-200.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.13.200]) by jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.2+Sun/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m2A6l8Ai411966; Sun, 09 Mar 2008 23:47:08 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2008 20:44:48 -1000 From: Joseph Kowalski Subject: Re: Nethack 3.4.3 [PSARC/2008/172 FastTrack timeout 03/11/2008] In-reply-to: <20080304214642.GB9130@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> To: Danek Duvall Cc: psarc-ext@sun.com Message-id: <47D4D8E0.50109@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_lXaDxSbB+LQCKLvSHBSrUw)" X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <20080304214642.GB9130@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (X11/20071119) Status: RO Content-Length: 3090 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_lXaDxSbB+LQCKLvSHBSrUw) Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Getting back to the basics... Danek Duvall wrote: > 3. Interfaces > > /usr/bin/nethack Uncommitted Executable location, CLI > /usr/lib/nethack Project Private Game data directory > /var/games Committed Writeable area for games > /var/games/nethack Uncommitted Writeable area for nethack > games Committed group name > Did you really say that /usr/games was the *writable* area for games? It seems that /usr is non-writable in most configurations (if not all). In some cases, not even local-root can write it. Perhaps you would want to reopen the case to correct this? Its pretty clear that the project team applies little value to what the LSB/FSH says (and they wouldn't be alone in that), but it suggests /var/games. (Far less interesting, but the LSB also suggest /usr/share/games for architecturally neutral data files. In most cases I think the LSB fascination with /usr/share (which is just a Solaris invention rather irrelevant to Linux) is overdone, but perhaps game data files could be big enough to actually matter.) - jek3 --Boundary_(ID_lXaDxSbB+LQCKLvSHBSrUw) Content-type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Getting back to the basics...

Danek Duvall wrote:
3.  Interfaces

    /usr/bin/nethack      Uncommitted        Executable location, CLI
    /usr/lib/nethack      Project Private    Game data directory
    /var/games            Committed          Writeable area for games
    /var/games/nethack    Uncommitted        Writeable area for nethack
    games                 Committed          group name
Did you really say that /usr/games was the writable area for games?  It seems that
/usr is non-writable in most configurations (if not all).  In some cases, not even local-root
can write it.

Perhaps you would want to reopen the case to correct this?

Its pretty clear that the project team applies little value to what the LSB/FSH
says (and they wouldn't be alone in that), but it suggests /var/games.

(Far less interesting, but the LSB also suggest /usr/share/games for architecturally
neutral data files. In most cases I think the LSB fascination with /usr/share (which
is just a Solaris invention rather irrelevant to Linux) is overdone, but perhaps
game data files could be big enough to actually matter.)

- jek3

 --Boundary_(ID_lXaDxSbB+LQCKLvSHBSrUw)-- From James.McPherson@sun.com Mon Mar 10 00:32:20 2008 Received: from newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (newsunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.245]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m2A7WKPF005277 for ; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 00:32:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m2A7WJu7053786 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:psarc-ext@sun.com>; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 01:32:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JXI004097LVLD00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Mon, 10 Mar 2008 00:32:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sineb-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.19.7]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JXI003807LUOX30@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Mon, 10 Mar 2008 00:32:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fe-apac-05.sun.com (fe-apac-05.sun.com [192.18.19.176] (may be forged)) by sineb-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m2A7Wagi000164 for ; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 07:32:36 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.mail-apac.sun.com by mail-apac.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0JXI006017LNYG00@mail-apac.sun.com> (original mail from James.McPherson@Sun.COM) for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Mon, 10 Mar 2008 15:32:17 +0800 (SGT) Received: from [10.7.251.162] by mail-apac.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JXI006RY7LQKKEV@mail-apac.sun.com>; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 15:32:17 +0800 (SGT) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2008 17:32:50 +1000 From: "James C. McPherson" Subject: Re: Nethack 3.4.3 [PSARC/2008/172 FastTrack timeout 03/11/2008] In-reply-to: <47D4D8E0.50109@sun.com> Sender: James.McPherson@sun.com To: Joseph Kowalski Cc: Danek Duvall , psarc-ext@sun.com Reply-to: James.McPherson@sun.com Message-id: <47D4E422.10100@Sun.COM> Organization: Sun Microsystems MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=UTF-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <20080304214642.GB9130@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <47D4D8E0.50109@sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (X11/20080128) Status: RO Content-Length: 868 Joseph Kowalski wrote: > > Getting back to the basics... > > Danek Duvall wrote: >> 3. Interfaces >> >> /usr/bin/nethack Uncommitted Executable location, CLI >> /usr/lib/nethack Project Private Game data directory >> /var/games Committed Writeable area for games ^^^^ >> /var/games/nethack Uncommitted Writeable area for nethack ^^^^ >> games Committed group name >> > Did you really say that /usr/games was the *writable* area for games? > It seems that /usr is non-writable in most configurations (if not all). > In some cases, not even local-root can write it. I think you misread just a little. James C. McPherson -- Senior Kernel Software Engineer, Solaris Sun Microsystems http://blogs.sun.com/jmcp http://www.jmcp.homeunix.com/blog From carlsonj@phorcys.east.sun.com Mon Mar 10 08:35:31 2008 Received: from sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m2AFZT1L016659 for ; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 08:35:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m2AFZLG5027508; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 23:35:27 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JXI00CGNTYYMC00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 09:35:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com ([129.148.174.143]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JXI00BMGTYF1F20@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 09:35:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.2+Sun/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m2AFRYn2023996; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 11:27:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from carlsonj@localhost) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.2+Sun/8.14.2/Submit) id m2AFRXbe023993; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 11:27:33 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2008 11:27:33 -0400 From: James Carlson Subject: Re: Nethack 3.4.3 [PSARC/2008/172 FastTrack timeout 03/11/2008] In-reply-to: <20080309081139.GD16041@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> To: Danek Duvall Cc: Octave Orgeron , Shawn Walker , Bart Smaalders , PSARC-ext@sun.com, Joseph Kowalski Message-id: <18389.21349.849303.843709@gargle.gargle.HOWL> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: VM 7.01 under Emacs 21.3.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <178362.70959.qm@web30804.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20080309081139.GD16041@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> Status: RO Content-Length: 1170 Danek Duvall writes: > So is there any other problem you see being solved by not putting > everything in /usr/bin? Other than there simply being more things in there > than there were in 1973? The problem I see is architectural: we went out of our way to define a system architecture that included /sbin, /usr/sbin, /usr/games and other locations that are not strictly needed for system operation but that define delivery locations for certain classes of objects. Nobody's asking to have new classes added, so the discussion of /usr/terminal-emulators or whatever is just out of scope. It doesn't matter. If we're going to dump everything in /usr/bin, then I'm on board. The one request I have is that we be consistent architecturally: make /sbin, /usr/sbin, /usr/games and the like formally obsolete. Don't just scatter things into /usr/bin or whereever because someone says ETOOHARD. Let's design things _intentionally_ and not by fad. -- James Carlson, Solaris Networking Sun Microsystems / 35 Network Drive 71.232W Vox +1 781 442 2084 MS UBUR02-212 / Burlington MA 01803-2757 42.496N Fax +1 781 442 1677 From danek.duvall@sun.com Mon Mar 10 09:49:14 2008 Received: from newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (newsunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.245]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m2AGnERS017839 for ; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 09:49:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m2AGn957038658; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 10:49:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JXI00E1ZXE0PM00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 09:49:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dm-sfbay-01.sfbay.sun.com ([129.145.155.118]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JXI00420XDZQ9A0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 09:49:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zruty.sfbay.sun.com (zruty.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.168.40]) by dm-sfbay-01.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m2AGnA0U045337; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 09:49:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zruty.sfbay.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zruty.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.2+Sun/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m2AGnATb028693; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 09:49:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from dduvall@localhost) by zruty.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.2+Sun/8.14.2/Submit) id m2AGn9YL028692; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 09:49:09 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2008 09:49:09 -0700 From: Danek Duvall Subject: Re: Nethack 3.4.3 [PSARC/2008/172 FastTrack timeout 03/11/2008] In-reply-to: <18389.21349.849303.843709@gargle.gargle.HOWL> To: James Carlson Cc: Octave Orgeron , Shawn Walker , Bart Smaalders , PSARC-ext@sun.com, Joseph Kowalski Message-id: <20080310164909.GA24360@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <178362.70959.qm@web30804.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20080309081139.GD16041@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <18389.21349.849303.843709@gargle.gargle.HOWL> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.16 (2007-06-27) Status: RO Content-Length: 1751 On Mon, Mar 10, 2008 at 11:27:33AM -0400, James Carlson wrote: > Danek Duvall writes: > > So is there any other problem you see being solved by not putting > > everything in /usr/bin? Other than there simply being more things in there > > than there were in 1973? > > The problem I see is architectural: we went out of our way to define a > system architecture that included /sbin, /usr/sbin, /usr/games I thought we just inherited that (/usr/games, at least) from Berkeley. I don't know why it was kept with the switch to SVr4, and would consider it de facto Obsolete after fifteen years of disuse. > Nobody's asking to have new classes added, There have been requests on this thread to have each application have its own directory under /usr (webmin, smc, etc). > If we're going to dump everything in /usr/bin, then I'm on board. The > one request I have is that we be consistent architecturally: make > /sbin, /usr/sbin, /usr/games and the like formally obsolete. I raised the idea of making /usr/games obsolete, but was shot down. I think that /sbin and /usr/sbin still have their uses. I could see /usr/sbin being eliminated, but while I think there are a number of utilities there which ought to be in /usr/bin, I think there's a fairly clear and useful line between its contents and those of /usr/bin. But I'm also reasonably happy to leave that stuff alone. /usr/games lives only as a wraith in the filesystem and filesystem(5), and putting anything there is an unnecessary reintroduction. I don't see the utility of /usr/games, or /usr/webmin. > Don't just scatter things into /usr/bin or whereever because someone says > ETOOHARD. Let's design things _intentionally_ and not by fad. You don't need to convince me. Danek From bart.smaalders@sun.com Mon Mar 10 10:07:04 2008 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m2AH73Lt011320 for ; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 10:07:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m2AH6uvT027173; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 17:06:59 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JXI00I0DY7NXX00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 11:06:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from zion.sfbay.sun.com ([129.146.17.75]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JXI00BP6Y7L1DA0@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 11:06:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [129.146.228.109] (cyber.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.228.109]) by zion.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.2+Sun/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m2AGxSsT478898; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 16:59:28 +0000 (GMT) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2008 10:04:32 -0700 From: Bart Smaalders Subject: Re: Nethack 3.4.3 [PSARC/2008/172 FastTrack timeout 03/11/2008] In-reply-to: <47D41416.8070505@sun.com> To: "Garrett D'Amore" Cc: Danek Duvall , Octave Orgeron , Shawn Walker , PSARC-ext@sun.com, Joseph Kowalski Message-id: <47D56A20.1090903@Sun.COM> Organization: Sun Microsystems MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <178362.70959.qm@web30804.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20080309081139.GD16041@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <47D41416.8070505@sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (X11/20080201) Status: RO Content-Length: 1524 Garrett D'Amore wrote: > There's another performance aspect though. Searching through > directories is proportional to the number of entires in it. If you're using UFS. On ZFS, no. > One could > argue that the most frequently accessed stuff should be in /usr/bin, and > other, less frequently accessed stuff, could live in directories that > appeared later in the search path, or were more easily pruned from > user's paths. Given that the next release of Solaris will use ZFS as it's root filesystem, any arguments about lookup performance are moot. (They're moot on UFS, too, of course, because of the DNLC.) -There is no good reason to place commands in multiple existing directories. There is REALLY no good reason to propose new directories. Using directory location as an indexing method for software makes no sense, because the user and system admin cost is so high when someone decides to add a new directory - every Solaris user around the world would need his/her path variables changed to see the new software. Ask around and find out how many people never discovered that gcc was present on every S10 full install in /usr/sfw. If you want better indexing and information on available commands, fine. Build better docs, help tools, etc - _don't_ try to implement this via adding more directories in the user's path. - Bart -- Bart Smaalders Solaris Kernel Performance barts@cyber.eng.sun.com http://blogs.sun.com/barts "You will contribute more with mercurial than with thunderbird." From binarycrusader@gmail.com Mon Mar 10 10:40:08 2008 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m2AHe8K6007736 for ; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 10:40:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m2AHe7Hf016901 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-ext@sun.com>; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 10:40:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JXI00L01ZQV5G00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Mon, 10 Mar 2008 11:40:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sca-ea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.43.25]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JXI00B1DZQU1JD0@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Mon, 10 Mar 2008 11:40:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay43i.sun.com ([192.5.209.74]) by sca-ea-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m2AH7GRE024868 for ; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 17:40:06 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mms49es.sun.com ([160.41.221.233] [160.41.221.233]) by relay43i.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-362376 for PSARC-ext@sun.com; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 17:40:05 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay43i.sun.com (relay43i.sun.com [192.5.209.74]) by mms49es.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-1713126 for PSARC-ext@sun.com; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 17:40:05 +0000 (Z) Received: from wx-out-0506.google.com ([66.249.82.230] [66.249.82.230]) by relay4i.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-13311999 for PSARC-ext@sun.com; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 17:40:05 +0000 (Z) Received: by wx-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id s11so1798633wxc.17 for ; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 10:40:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.141.164.13 with SMTP id r13mr3370978rvo.65.1205170804538; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 10:40:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.140.127.12 with HTTP; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 10:40:04 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2008 12:40:04 -0500 From: Shawn Walker Subject: Re: Nethack 3.4.3 [PSARC/2008/172 FastTrack timeout 03/11/2008] In-reply-to: <47D56A20.1090903@Sun.COM> Sender: binarycrusader@gmail.com To: Bart Smaalders Cc: "Garrett D'Amore" , Danek Duvall , Octave Orgeron , PSARC-ext@sun.com, Joseph Kowalski Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references:x-google-sender-auth; bh=Dz2Kakw3BADGd09FCfK4s7Xg/sGE+qUSacTWVWkOOyw=; b=mEpuKE/zY7CMYxX26O219w2VP3dGIr0JmvBWSNgdb1e6HL0YjcMLiLryfRIJlHduvhez5Vk6xs3El6hZL7ZfbRJ3AiZxnQRZc1Re1j9p2Wm3YCaq5uAJbGL2BG7IC/NBc1CG9mHrveByuKF4Re14BXJvdfomw0C03ew05z8/Q10= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=U4ryHl5NB3C/L8PNaciPkV20GquJDkyrPT7zlnPmhG23BZoW6JV4rsemVitdMiFRh5hV/eGhSurVNbd7+P0A4O3JfYDUAFibtCz7QWcGBxINzAXg6kM+naEXQflTs/ix+cCGv+i7wzKKUbVkn3ho2IOk7MRjWOYFmcFFum9seNs= X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== X-Google-Sender-Auth: 01d39b17beb0cb7d X-Antispam: No, score=-2.6/5.0, scanned in 0.065sec at (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smf-spamd v1.3.1 - http://smfs.sf.net/ References: <178362.70959.qm@web30804.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20080309081139.GD16041@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <47D41416.8070505@sun.com> <47D56A20.1090903@Sun.COM> Status: RO Content-Length: 997 On Mon, Mar 10, 2008 at 12:04 PM, Bart Smaalders wrote: > -There is no good reason to place commands in multiple existing directories. I think there is a large difference between *commands* and *applications*. I expect *commands* or programs intended to be used as such to be in my path. I don't expect every single application, game and random program to be in my path. Putting every single binary in my path is going to make things worse for me as a user, since if I use command-line completion to hunt for a particular command, I'm going to see far more results than are helpful. > There is REALLY no good reason to propose new directories. I'm not convinced of that yet. For commands, I can agree; but the rest I have a hard time accepting. Can we at least find some common ground on that? -- Shawn Walker, Software and Systems Analyst http://binarycrusader.blogspot.com/ "To err is human -- and to blame it on a computer is even more so." - Robert Orben From jek3@sun.com Mon Mar 10 10:53:31 2008 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m2AHrVTq010774 for ; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 10:53:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m2AHrFL5018834; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 17:53:27 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JXJ00K030D2LO00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 10:53:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com ([129.146.17.59]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JXJ00J450D2IE10@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 10:53:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [129.150.13.200] (vpn-129-150-13-200.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.13.200]) by jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.2+Sun/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m2AHrPj2478497; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 10:53:26 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2008 07:51:04 -1000 From: Joseph Kowalski Subject: Re: Nethack 3.4.3 [PSARC/2008/172 FastTrack timeout 03/11/2008] In-reply-to: <47D4E422.10100@Sun.COM> To: James.McPherson@sun.com Cc: Danek Duvall , psarc-ext@sun.com Message-id: <47D57508.6010403@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <20080304214642.GB9130@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <47D4D8E0.50109@sun.com> <47D4E422.10100@Sun.COM> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (X11/20071119) Status: RO Content-Length: 137 James C. McPherson wrote: > I think you misread just a little. Yep, my bad. Shouldn't do things like this in the wee hours.... - jek3 From bart.smaalders@sun.com Mon Mar 10 11:08:37 2008 Received: from newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (newsunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.245]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m2AI8bRG011299 for ; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 11:08:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m2AI8aSW001930; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 12:08:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JXJ00N0Z12B1900@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 12:08:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from zion.sfbay.sun.com ([129.146.17.75]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JXJ00MP0129EX20@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 12:08:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [129.146.228.109] (cyber.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.228.109]) by zion.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.2+Sun/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m2AI13sH480973; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 18:01:03 +0000 (GMT) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2008 11:06:08 -0700 From: Bart Smaalders Subject: Re: Nethack 3.4.3 [PSARC/2008/172 FastTrack timeout 03/11/2008] In-reply-to: To: Shawn Walker Cc: "Garrett D'Amore" , Danek Duvall , Octave Orgeron , PSARC-ext@sun.com, Joseph Kowalski Message-id: <47D57890.5000002@Sun.COM> Organization: Sun Microsystems MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <178362.70959.qm@web30804.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20080309081139.GD16041@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <47D41416.8070505@sun.com> <47D56A20.1090903@Sun.COM> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (X11/20080201) Status: RO Content-Length: 1353 Shawn Walker wrote: > On Mon, Mar 10, 2008 at 12:04 PM, Bart Smaalders wrote: >> -There is no good reason to place commands in multiple existing directories. > > I think there is a large difference between *commands* and *applications*. > > I expect *commands* or programs intended to be used as such to be in my path. > > I don't expect every single application, game and random program to be > in my path. > > Putting every single binary in my path is going to make things worse > for me as a user, since if I use command-line completion to hunt for a > particular command, I'm going to see far more results than are > helpful. > >> There is REALLY no good reason to propose new directories. > > I'm not convinced of that yet. > > For commands, I can agree; but the rest I have a hard time accepting. > > Can we at least find some common ground on that? > Personally, if the expected method of invocation is a desktop menu (the update of which must be part of the app) or a mime-handler (also added automatically as part of install) than I don't care very much. If it's a curses-based application or command line, it belongs in /usr/bin. - Bart -- Bart Smaalders Solaris Kernel Performance barts@cyber.eng.sun.com http://blogs.sun.com/barts "You will contribute more with mercurial than with thunderbird." From gdamore@sun.com Mon Mar 10 11:20:55 2008 Received: from sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m2AIKser011523 for ; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 11:20:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m2AIKi5e004230; Tue, 11 Mar 2008 02:20:52 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JXJ0030X1MPTJ00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 11:20:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sca-es-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.43.133]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JXJ002AV1MO3Q30@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 11:20:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fe-sfbay-09.sun.com ([192.18.43.129]) by sca-es-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m2AIKmtO003321; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 11:20:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.fe-sfbay-09.sun.com by fe-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0JXJ00H010AVJV00@fe-sfbay-09.sun.com> (original mail from gdamore@Sun.COM) ; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 11:20:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.251.106] ([76.174.83.55]) by fe-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0JXJ0093C1MDQRC0@fe-sfbay-09.sun.com>; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 11:20:38 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2008 11:18:13 -0700 From: "Garrett D'Amore" Subject: Re: Nethack 3.4.3 [PSARC/2008/172 FastTrack timeout 03/11/2008] In-reply-to: Sender: Garrett.Damore@sun.com To: Shawn Walker Cc: Bart Smaalders , Danek Duvall , Octave Orgeron , psarc-ext@sun.com, Joseph Kowalski Message-id: <47D57B65.9080001@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <178362.70959.qm@web30804.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20080309081139.GD16041@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <47D41416.8070505@sun.com> <47D56A20.1090903@Sun.COM> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (X11/20071023) Status: RO Content-Length: 2951 Shawn Walker wrote: > On Mon, Mar 10, 2008 at 12:04 PM, Bart Smaalders wrote: > >> -There is no good reason to place commands in multiple existing directories. >> > > I think there is a large difference between *commands* and *applications*. > > I expect *commands* or programs intended to be used as such to be in my path. > > I don't expect every single application, game and random program to be > in my path. > > Putting every single binary in my path is going to make things worse > for me as a user, since if I use command-line completion to hunt for a > particular command, I'm going to see far more results than are > helpful. > > >> There is REALLY no good reason to propose new directories. >> > > I'm not convinced of that yet. > > For commands, I can agree; but the rest I have a hard time accepting. > > Can we at least find some common ground on that? > > Has anyone else around here found that the utility of tab-completion in shells like tcsh has gradually deteriorated over time, as more and more stuff gets added to /usr/bin? I realize this is a minor complaint, but putting every executable in /usr/bin does have its drawbacks. It used to be that I could type /usr/bin/g, hit tab or ctrl-d, and get a couple of items (usually a few things like gtar, etc.) But now the listing is so long that I have to have an exceptionally large history buffer set in my terminal application so that I can scroll back to find the program. Gnome is the worst offender here. How many people really need gst-xmllaunch in /usr/bin. Or gtkdoc-mkman, or gtk-builder-convert, or gslj, or gpilot-session-wrapper, or gnome-keyring-daemon? (The list of programs living in /usr/bin, that I will probably *never* manually execute from a shell, is now probably larger than the list that I will. And I almost never use GUI based launchers -- yes, I still type "firefox", "thunderbird", "emacs", "xterm", and even "soffice" in my shell windows.) This is the kind of clutter that actually *decreases* the usability of interactive paths and the shell. Am I the only one who ever has tried to search for a command where they thought that they recalled the first character or two, but weren't sure about the rest? It used to be reasonable to just browse /usr/bin to find such candidates. No longer. Conversely, back when we were still shipping the spider java application, I was incredibly annoyed that it *wasn't* in /usr/bin .. it was tucked away in some library directory, and you could *only* execute it easily from the Gnome menu. We can do better in both these cases. I think if its likely that 10% or more of our users will *ever* want to type a command line, then it probably is a good candidate for /usr/bin. If its less (in some case far less) than that, then IMO we are doing everyone else a disservice by including it in the most common directories. -- Garrett From binarycrusader@gmail.com Mon Mar 10 11:23:20 2008 Received: from sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m2AINJNF011576 for ; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 11:23:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m2AINI45005148 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-ext@sun.com>; Tue, 11 Mar 2008 02:23:18 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JXJ003171QTWJ00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Mon, 10 Mar 2008 11:23:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com ([192.18.98.34]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JXJ002KT1QS4130@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Mon, 10 Mar 2008 11:23:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay41i.sun.com ([192.5.209.70]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m2AIMXWA011435 for ; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 18:23:16 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mms48es.sun.com ([160.41.221.231] [160.41.221.231]) by relay41i.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-95414 for PSARC-ext@sun.com; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 18:22:38 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay44i.sun.com (relay44i.sun.com [192.5.209.118]) by mms48es.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-2197438 for PSARC-ext@sun.com; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 18:21:40 +0000 (Z) Received: from rv-out-0910.google.com ([209.85.198.186] [209.85.198.186]) by relay4i.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-14280159 for PSARC-ext@sun.com; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 18:21:40 +0000 (Z) Received: by rv-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id c27so1150482rvf.8 for ; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 11:21:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.141.75.6 with SMTP id c6mr2844127rvl.286.1205173276929; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 11:21:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.140.127.12 with HTTP; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 11:21:16 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2008 13:21:16 -0500 From: Shawn Walker Subject: Re: Nethack 3.4.3 [PSARC/2008/172 FastTrack timeout 03/11/2008] In-reply-to: <47D57890.5000002@Sun.COM> Sender: binarycrusader@gmail.com To: Bart Smaalders Cc: "Garrett D'Amore" , Danek Duvall , Octave Orgeron , PSARC-ext@sun.com, Joseph Kowalski Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references:x-google-sender-auth; bh=SI1lg1iwRM2KU2JuGh7UTe8x0iaqhEnUi99f0XulwHM=; b=mvs//DakIAtsyaZoAcxL62ysU2cQXmS69Ibib/aSMVmTRI5JIE9QH/6qbtkm3z0Aat43ued+OQemfAJrMIiMULmaWxVaVXduDrFmFBuv5cXHRpfHFvPUUFU/c4SrtHHdKQY+qMhe/9fBuX5o3A1Y5VPD6vE/L4G6mGoEo5JFlJE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=L4SORbe1bTSRCaLzlMPJIY0w8RPUYD2IETqgkbiti4l2nczH1UqLsc93tgp6xOEeTAn8X/JR8TTuJXhj+9A+XuavBt4K69AXbl8gqwVX9m1XHkq7Hpz/u0TZ77KPPaJhZHVq2G2fVBJJtTI4FcrjrzT+o9vC3dC1nJXtouGLNwY= X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== X-Google-Sender-Auth: 9d344dd136b445d5 X-Antispam: No, score=-2.6/5.0, scanned in 0.104sec at (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smf-spamd v1.3.1 - http://smfs.sf.net/ References: <178362.70959.qm@web30804.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20080309081139.GD16041@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <47D41416.8070505@sun.com> <47D56A20.1090903@Sun.COM> <47D57890.5000002@Sun.COM> Status: RO Content-Length: 1707 On Mon, Mar 10, 2008 at 1:06 PM, Bart Smaalders wrote: > Shawn Walker wrote: > > On Mon, Mar 10, 2008 at 12:04 PM, Bart Smaalders wrote: > >> -There is no good reason to place commands in multiple existing directories. > > > > I think there is a large difference between *commands* and *applications*. > > > > I expect *commands* or programs intended to be used as such to be in my path. > > > > I don't expect every single application, game and random program to be > > in my path. > > > > Putting every single binary in my path is going to make things worse > > for me as a user, since if I use command-line completion to hunt for a > > particular command, I'm going to see far more results than are > > helpful. > > > >> There is REALLY no good reason to propose new directories. > > > > I'm not convinced of that yet. > > > > For commands, I can agree; but the rest I have a hard time accepting. > > > > Can we at least find some common ground on that? > > > > Personally, if the expected method of invocation is a desktop menu > (the update of which must be part of the app) or a mime-handler > (also added automatically as part of install) than I don't care > very much. > > If it's a curses-based application or command line, it belongs in /usr/bin. Of course I already can hear the argument against it (which I don't agree with). That many "gui applications" accept command-line parameters that are useful, etc. Still, I think it's worth pursuing. -- Shawn Walker, Software and Systems Analyst http://binarycrusader.blogspot.com/ "To err is human -- and to blame it on a computer is even more so." - Robert Orben From gdamore@sun.com Mon Mar 10 11:24:03 2008 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m2AIO3h0011588 for ; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 11:24:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m2AIO2sC000484; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 11:24:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JXJ0000X1S27300@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 11:24:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sca-es-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.43.132]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JXJ00JY31S2IC30@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 11:24:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fe-sfbay-09.sun.com ([192.18.43.129]) by sca-es-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m2AIO2xT010352; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 11:24:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.fe-sfbay-09.sun.com by fe-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0JXJ0040115RHE00@fe-sfbay-09.sun.com> (original mail from gdamore@Sun.COM) ; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 11:24:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.251.106] ([76.174.83.55]) by fe-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0JXJ009TJ1RTQRD0@fe-sfbay-09.sun.com>; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 11:23:54 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2008 11:21:29 -0700 From: "Garrett D'Amore" Subject: Re: Nethack 3.4.3 [PSARC/2008/172 FastTrack timeout 03/11/2008] In-reply-to: <47D57890.5000002@Sun.COM> Sender: Garrett.Damore@sun.com To: Bart Smaalders Cc: Shawn Walker , Danek Duvall , Octave Orgeron , PSARC-ext@sun.com, Joseph Kowalski Message-id: <47D57C29.8070007@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <178362.70959.qm@web30804.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20080309081139.GD16041@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <47D41416.8070505@sun.com> <47D56A20.1090903@Sun.COM> <47D57890.5000002@Sun.COM> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (X11/20071023) Status: RO Content-Length: 1664 Bart Smaalders wrote: > Shawn Walker wrote: >> On Mon, Mar 10, 2008 at 12:04 PM, Bart Smaalders >> wrote: >>> -There is no good reason to place commands in multiple existing >>> directories. >> >> I think there is a large difference between *commands* and >> *applications*. >> >> I expect *commands* or programs intended to be used as such to be in >> my path. >> >> I don't expect every single application, game and random program to be >> in my path. >> >> Putting every single binary in my path is going to make things worse >> for me as a user, since if I use command-line completion to hunt for a >> particular command, I'm going to see far more results than are >> helpful. >> >>> There is REALLY no good reason to propose new directories. >> >> I'm not convinced of that yet. >> >> For commands, I can agree; but the rest I have a hard time accepting. >> >> Can we at least find some common ground on that? >> > > Personally, if the expected method of invocation is a desktop menu > (the update of which must be part of the app) or a mime-handler > (also added automatically as part of install) than I don't care > very much. > > If it's a curses-based application or command line, it belongs in > /usr/bin. I call BS. I routinely type the name of such "handlers" or "desktop menu items" in shell windows. Yes, I type "soffice", usually several times a week. I almost *never* resort to using the Gnome menus. I was really annoyed when I couldn't find jspider in /usr/bin. (There was an upside, though. Sun finally got smart and dumped the application, saving me from countless wasted hours... :-) - Garrett From Nicolas.Williams@sun.com Mon Mar 10 11:28:27 2008 Received: from sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m2AISQZS011799 for ; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 11:28:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m2AISGIu006813; Tue, 11 Mar 2008 02:28:22 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JXJ000011Z9M300@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 11:28:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM ([129.153.128.104]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JXJ00JDL1Z8IC40@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 11:28:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m2AISKti008440; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 13:28:20 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from nw141292@localhost) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1/Submit) id m2AISKMb008439; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 13:28:20 -0500 (CDT) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2008 13:28:20 -0500 From: Nicolas Williams Subject: Re: Nethack 3.4.3 [PSARC/2008/172 FastTrack timeout 03/11/2008] In-reply-to: <47D41416.8070505@sun.com> To: "Garrett D'Amore" Cc: Danek Duvall , Bart Smaalders , Joseph Kowalski , PSARC-ext@sun.com Mail-followup-to: Garrett D'Amore , Danek Duvall , Bart Smaalders , Joseph Kowalski , PSARC-ext@sun.com Message-id: <20080310182820.GM986@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <178362.70959.qm@web30804.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20080309081139.GD16041@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <47D41416.8070505@sun.com> X-Authentication-warning: binky.Central.Sun.COM: nw141292 set sender to Nicolas.Williams@sun.com using -f User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.7i Status: RO Content-Length: 1378 On Sun, Mar 09, 2008 at 09:45:10AM -0700, Garrett D'Amore wrote: > There's another performance aspect though. Searching through It's been mentioned several times now. > directories is proportional to the number of entires in it. One could Well, sortof. UFS does linear searches, so, yes, but ZFS hashes its directories, so, no. ZFS boot could/should be the answer to this concern. > Of course, mitigating this concern is the fact that many (most?) > interactive shells hash the search path -- getting O(1) search time > instead of O(n). But does exec() also take the hit, to find a > directory entry, even when fully qualified? Why couldn't the VFS/fop/filesystem hash /usr/bin even when the undernlying filesystem on-disk format doesn't? Why should this performance issue complicate other parts of the system's architecture when we can just address this performance issue? > I'd be a fan of fewer things in /usr/bin, and perhaps longer search > paths for users (/usr/bin, /usr/gnome/bin, /usr/X11/bin, /usr/games (or > /usr/games/bin), etc. I'm not sure when the last time we modified the > default search path for users was, though.... Modifying the default PATH doesn't help. Modifying users' shell dot files is not reasonable, or feasible. I agree that nothing belongs in /usr/bin that is launched from a GUI but not from the CLI. That's about it. From gdamore@sun.com Mon Mar 10 11:53:29 2008 Received: from sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m2AIrSub012346 for ; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 11:53:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m2AIrNjO018419; Tue, 11 Mar 2008 02:53:26 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JXJ0022J34XYD00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 12:53:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sca-es-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.43.133]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JXJ0027Q34TSH00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 12:53:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: from fe-sfbay-10.sun.com ([192.18.43.129]) by sca-es-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m2AIrG0r007895; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 11:53:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.fe-sfbay-10.sun.com by fe-sfbay-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0JXJ002012UQWB00@fe-sfbay-10.sun.com> (original mail from gdamore@sun.com) ; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 11:53:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.251.106] ([76.174.83.55]) by fe-sfbay-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0JXJ000WW34SX0B0@fe-sfbay-10.sun.com>; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 11:53:16 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2008 11:50:51 -0700 From: "Garrett D'Amore" Subject: Re: Nethack 3.4.3 [PSARC/2008/172 FastTrack timeout 03/11/2008] In-reply-to: Sender: Garrett.Damore@sun.com To: Shawn Walker Cc: Bart Smaalders , Danek Duvall , Octave Orgeron , psarc-ext@sun.com, Joseph Kowalski Message-id: <47D5830B.2060005@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <178362.70959.qm@web30804.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20080309081139.GD16041@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <47D41416.8070505@sun.com> <47D56A20.1090903@Sun.COM> <47D57890.5000002@Sun.COM> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (X11/20071023) Status: RO Content-Length: 2052 Shawn Walker wrote: >> Personally, if the expected method of invocation is a desktop menu >> (the update of which must be part of the app) or a mime-handler >> (also added automatically as part of install) than I don't care >> very much. >> >> If it's a curses-based application or command line, it belongs in /usr/bin. >> > > Of course I already can hear the argument against it (which I don't agree with). > > That many "gui applications" accept command-line parameters that are > useful, etc. > > Still, I think it's worth pursuing. > > Heh. I'm still bitter (well, maybe not really bitter) that to format troff documents such as man pages into postscript, I have to type a pipe that include this horrible command path: "/usr/lib/lp/postscript/dpost". I suspect I'm not the only one who types that command line occasionally, and probably more than a few have either put /usr/lib/lp/postscript/ into their PATH, or linked dpost somewhere useful, or just written a wrapper script (e.g. an "ms2ps" or "troffit" script. :-) The argument that commands which only get started by the GUI should not be accessible via /usr/bin (or some other "easily accessible" path, such as /usr/gnome/bin or somesuch, ala /usr/dt/bin) is probably being made mostly by folks who don't really use a CLI for most of their work. There are a lot of us CLI folks out there, and even though we use GUI applications, we often use a CLI to start them. (Now, "helper" applications, such as a program that is really only a helper for another GUI application, are a different matter entirely. /usr/bin/totem-video-indexer is a good example. I suspect that it serves no useful purpose living in /usr/bin.) Btw, I'm actually moderately offended that gnome/autoconfig tools seem to like to put the "-config" programs in ${prefix}/bin rather ${prefix}/lib. These programs are only ever used by autoconfig/automake subsystems, when building software. Yes, I believe ${prefix}/bin should be for commands that humans type. :-) -- Garrett From binarycrusader@gmail.com Mon Mar 10 12:09:15 2008 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m2AJ9EMH014650 for ; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 12:09:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m2AJ9Dbf024802 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:psarc-ext@sun.com>; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 19:09:13 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JXJ0042B3VC9100@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Mon, 10 Mar 2008 12:09:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sca-ea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.43.25]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JXJ00JAS3VBII90@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Mon, 10 Mar 2008 12:09:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay22.sun.com (relay22.sun.com [192.12.251.34] (may be forged)) by sca-ea-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m2AJ9B1o026304 for ; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 19:09:11 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mms23es.sun.com ([150.143.232.54] [150.143.232.54]) by relay22i.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-200741 for psarc-ext@sun.com; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 19:09:10 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay23.sun.com (relay23.sun.com [192.12.251.54]) by mms23es.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-3060483 for psarc-ext@sun.com; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 19:09:10 +0000 (Z) Received: from rv-out-0910.google.com ([209.85.198.191] [209.85.198.191]) by relay23i.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-5116980 for psarc-ext@sun.com; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 19:09:10 +0000 (Z) Received: by rv-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id c27so1160395rvf.8 for ; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 12:06:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.141.141.3 with SMTP id t3mr3473195rvn.52.1205176016045; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 12:06:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.140.127.12 with HTTP; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 12:06:55 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2008 14:06:55 -0500 From: Shawn Walker Subject: Re: Nethack 3.4.3 [PSARC/2008/172 FastTrack timeout 03/11/2008] In-reply-to: <47D5830B.2060005@sun.com> Sender: binarycrusader@gmail.com To: "Garrett D'Amore" Cc: Bart Smaalders , Danek Duvall , Octave Orgeron , psarc-ext@sun.com, Joseph Kowalski Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references:x-google-sender-auth; bh=kT10RhhQu5mXmaAQo7YMmDgBLWdOYpvSKN8mRHPP0eo=; b=Bgl83LTZoTWRBlyW3zF8jV0LrcmfvXA19YKkCn9Y6QQoQzMLsdZfb+5iakJkGWLUwr1I0IvC9FZF+aCDgZlhOflDTr45v/q9/f0S2RntVRew48V0QvetckW+nBlQfIih1HRH2v+LAJ4dwRkkB+RYIseSa7LlFP950tm+aKQdoBY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=SHSB3SV3CGRia9/kCCQg88UDSddDMbfH0VutMAESx52lUW+nA6nkFnaPkdMwO1gBqCge/U155JOxmbCO8R9HZHtKmOtSyv01SmZxGrl5d5kdbM02Ps0JgG1ZRTMLemumupR2roaq7oBCTB+VCdpJN4mRlgMt+dybdxcIYVpxuqk= X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== X-Google-Sender-Auth: 947d6962c48054dd X-Antispam: No, score=-2.6/5.0, scanned in 0.083sec at (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smf-spamd v1.3.1 - http://smfs.sf.net/ References: <178362.70959.qm@web30804.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20080309081139.GD16041@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <47D41416.8070505@sun.com> <47D56A20.1090903@Sun.COM> <47D57890.5000002@Sun.COM> <47D5830B.2060005@sun.com> Status: RO Content-Length: 2864 On Mon, Mar 10, 2008 at 1:50 PM, Garrett D'Amore wrote: > Shawn Walker wrote: > >> Personally, if the expected method of invocation is a desktop menu > >> (the update of which must be part of the app) or a mime-handler > >> (also added automatically as part of install) than I don't care > >> very much. > >> > >> If it's a curses-based application or command line, it belongs in /usr/bin. > >> > > > > Of course I already can hear the argument against it (which I don't agree with). > > > > That many "gui applications" accept command-line parameters that are > > useful, etc. > > > > Still, I think it's worth pursuing. > > > > > Heh. I'm still bitter (well, maybe not really bitter) that to format > troff documents such as man pages into postscript, I have to type a pipe > that include this horrible command path: > "/usr/lib/lp/postscript/dpost". I suspect I'm not the only one who > types that command line occasionally, and probably more than a few have > either put /usr/lib/lp/postscript/ into their PATH, or linked dpost > somewhere useful, or just written a wrapper script (e.g. an "ms2ps" or > "troffit" script. :-) > > The argument that commands which only get started by the GUI should not > be accessible via /usr/bin (or some other "easily accessible" path, such > as /usr/gnome/bin or somesuch, ala /usr/dt/bin) is probably being made > mostly by folks who don't really use a CLI for most of their work. > There are a lot of us CLI folks out there, and even though we use GUI > applications, we often use a CLI to start them. > > (Now, "helper" applications, such as a program that is really only a > helper for another GUI application, are a different matter entirely. > /usr/bin/totem-video-indexer is a good example. I suspect that it > serves no useful purpose living in /usr/bin.) > > Btw, I'm actually moderately offended that gnome/autoconfig tools seem > to like to put the "-config" programs in ${prefix}/bin rather > ${prefix}/lib. These programs are only ever used by > autoconfig/automake subsystems, when building software. Yes, I believe > ${prefix}/bin should be for commands that humans type. :-) As you have pointed out; I think the real answer is that you can't "blindly categorise" things as belonging in one place or another. I think a better way to handle it is as you suggested: only put things intended for "humans to type" in /usr/bin (and thus, the PATH). Yes, I know that's subjective and a case-by-case basis; but wouldn't it result in a better system overall? If putting things into /usr/bin is about user experience, then we should be careful to do that in a positive manner. -- Shawn Walker, Software and Systems Analyst http://binarycrusader.blogspot.com/ "To err is human -- and to blame it on a computer is even more so." - Robert Orben From jek3@sun.com Mon Mar 10 14:01:43 2008 Received: from newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (newsunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.245]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m2AL1hUY019029 for ; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 14:01:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m2AL1gqL058778; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 15:01:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JXJ00C0392U3500@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 15:01:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: from jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com ([129.146.17.59]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JXJ002TQ92RT260@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 15:01:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [129.150.13.200] (vpn-129-150-13-200.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.13.200]) by jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.2+Sun/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m2AL1c7Y517001; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 14:01:38 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2008 10:59:15 -1000 From: Joseph Kowalski Subject: Re: Nethack 3.4.3 [PSARC/2008/172 FastTrack timeout 03/11/2008] In-reply-to: <47D56A20.1090903@Sun.COM> To: Bart Smaalders Cc: "Garrett D'Amore" , Danek Duvall , Octave Orgeron , Shawn Walker , PSARC-ext@sun.com Message-id: <47D5A123.10102@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <178362.70959.qm@web30804.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20080309081139.GD16041@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <47D41416.8070505@sun.com> <47D56A20.1090903@Sun.COM> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (X11/20071119) Status: RO Content-Length: 460 Bart Smaalders wrote: > There is REALLY no good reason to propose new directories. It seems that lots of people have different reasons. I want to re-iterate is the my concern is "linux familiarity". Danek sent me some more information (as in *what* linux?) which I am still digesting. Aside: We need to decide what our view is of the LSB/FSH. We should decide if it is interesting or not. Picking and choosing from it seems like the wrong thing. - jek3 From jek3@sun.com Mon Mar 10 14:45:16 2008 Received: from sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m2ALjF1R021333 for ; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 14:45:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m2ALisek023544; Tue, 11 Mar 2008 05:45:11 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JXJ00A3DB3AQF00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 14:45:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com ([129.146.17.59]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JXJ00AW6B3AKH10@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 14:45:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [129.150.13.200] (vpn-129-150-13-200.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.13.200]) by jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.2+Sun/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m2ALj9uD523883; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 14:45:09 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2008 11:42:46 -1000 From: Joseph Kowalski Subject: Re: Nethack 3.4.3 [PSARC/2008/172 FastTrack timeout 03/11/2008] In-reply-to: To: Shawn Walker Cc: Bart Smaalders , "Garrett D'Amore" , Danek Duvall , Octave Orgeron , PSARC-ext@sun.com Message-id: <47D5AB56.4050306@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <178362.70959.qm@web30804.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20080309081139.GD16041@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <47D41416.8070505@sun.com> <47D56A20.1090903@Sun.COM> <47D57890.5000002@Sun.COM> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (X11/20071119) Status: RO Content-Length: 1481 Shawn Walker wrote: >> If it's a curses-based application or command line, it belongs in /usr/bin. >> > > Of course I already can hear the argument against it (which I don't agree with). > > That many "gui applications" accept command-line parameters that are > useful, etc. > > Still, I think it's worth pursuing. > PSARC argument #7 is "/usr/bin or /usr/sbin"? There are fairly good semantic definitions for these. There are some who would like to change the semantic of /usr/sbin, but I'll submit that that's a different discussion. (Bart is one of these people and in earlier mail lamented that ndd was rejected as a precedent. At that time, the ARC strongly suggested that if he wanted change the semantic, that he file a specific case. Hasn't happened, so we still have the status-quo.) The interesting case about argument #7 is "sure its a administrative utility, but its useful to the end user (or some small set of end users). My view (tm) is that any user who is experienced enough to use these utilities, also know how to set their PATH. Other views differ. Anyway, two observations: 1. We should resolve this so that we don't have to have argument #7 time and time again (or at least restrict it to the very gray cases). 2. The discussion of "which directory is appropriate for games" is not a choice between existing directories. (All though nethack sounds a little like it belongs in /sbin.) - jek3 From jek3@sun.com Mon Mar 10 14:55:57 2008 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m2ALtug6021765 for ; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 14:55:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m2ALtpDf007000; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 21:55:53 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JXJ00K03BL4P900@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 14:55:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com ([129.146.17.59]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JXJ00HBCBL4RY10@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 14:55:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [129.150.13.200] (vpn-129-150-13-200.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.13.200]) by jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.2+Sun/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m2ALtptb525397; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 14:55:51 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2008 11:53:28 -1000 From: Joseph Kowalski Subject: Re: Nethack 3.4.3 [PSARC/2008/172 FastTrack timeout 03/11/2008] In-reply-to: To: Shawn Walker Cc: "Garrett D'Amore" , Bart Smaalders , Danek Duvall , Octave Orgeron , psarc-ext@sun.com Message-id: <47D5ADD8.2060903@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <178362.70959.qm@web30804.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20080309081139.GD16041@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <47D41416.8070505@sun.com> <47D56A20.1090903@Sun.COM> <47D57890.5000002@Sun.COM> <47D5830B.2060005@sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (X11/20071119) Status: RO Content-Length: 362 Shawn Walker wrote: > I think a better way to handle it is as you suggested: only put things > intended for "humans to type" in /usr/bin (and thus, the PATH). > Does this imply that system administrators aren't human. I somehow always suspected that :-) (Please *really* note the smiley.) Seriously, are you a proponent of eliminating /usr/sbin. - jek3 From danek.duvall@sun.com Mon Mar 10 15:00:45 2008 Received: from sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m2AM0hsE022036 for ; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 15:00:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m2AM0cc0028982; Tue, 11 Mar 2008 06:00:39 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JXJ00G09BT1CF00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 16:00:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from dm-sfbay-01.sfbay.sun.com ([129.145.155.118]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JXJ002X4BT1T3A0@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 16:00:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from zruty.sfbay.sun.com (zruty.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.168.40]) by dm-sfbay-01.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m2AM0a6E045838; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 15:00:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zruty.sfbay.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zruty.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.2+Sun/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m2AM0aXS001921; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 15:00:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from dduvall@localhost) by zruty.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.2+Sun/8.14.2/Submit) id m2AM0atr001920; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 15:00:36 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2008 15:00:36 -0700 From: Danek Duvall Subject: Re: Nethack 3.4.3 [PSARC/2008/172 FastTrack timeout 03/11/2008] In-reply-to: <47D5AB56.4050306@sun.com> To: Joseph Kowalski Cc: Shawn Walker , Bart Smaalders , "Garrett D'Amore" , Octave Orgeron , PSARC-ext@sun.com Message-id: <20080310220036.GF24360@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <178362.70959.qm@web30804.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20080309081139.GD16041@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <47D41416.8070505@sun.com> <47D56A20.1090903@Sun.COM> <47D57890.5000002@Sun.COM> <47D5AB56.4050306@sun.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.16 (2007-06-27) Status: RO Content-Length: 626 On Mon, Mar 10, 2008 at 11:42:46AM -1000, Joseph Kowalski wrote: > (All though nethack sounds a little like it belongs in /sbin.) Only if it were needed before /usr were mounted. While I agree that it should go into the failsafe archive for use at this time, the only reason to put it in /sbin would be if it could assist you in mounting /usr. Unfortunately, at this time, you can only mount your pony (or horse or warhorse, if they've enough XP). I can file an RFE with the nethack folks if you like. Danek PS You all can keep your sick "mount" jokes to yourself. That's what incubi and succubi are for, not ponies. From binarycrusader@gmail.com Mon Mar 10 15:02:26 2008 Received: from newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (newsunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.245]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m2AM2Q8O022080 for ; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 15:02:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m2AM2P9h008776 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:psarc-ext@sun.com>; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 16:02:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JXJ00G4HBW1EK00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Mon, 10 Mar 2008 16:02:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com ([192.18.98.36]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JXJ002PSBVZT1B0@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Mon, 10 Mar 2008 16:02:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay43i.sun.com ([192.5.209.74]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m2ALYXxd026075 for ; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 22:02:23 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mms48es.sun.com ([160.41.221.231] [160.41.221.231]) by relay43i.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-37340 for psarc-ext@sun.com; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 22:02:23 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay43i.sun.com (relay43i.sun.com [192.5.209.74]) by mms48es.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-4148852 for psarc-ext@sun.com; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 22:02:17 +0000 (Z) Received: from el-out-1112.google.com ([209.85.162.183] [209.85.162.183]) by relay4i.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-1006529 for psarc-ext@sun.com; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 22:02:17 +0000 (Z) Received: by el-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id z25so1149609ele.6 for ; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 15:02:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.140.179.25 with SMTP id b25mr3655622rvf.186.1205186535921; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 15:02:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.140.127.12 with HTTP; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 15:02:15 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2008 17:02:15 -0500 From: Shawn Walker Subject: Re: Nethack 3.4.3 [PSARC/2008/172 FastTrack timeout 03/11/2008] In-reply-to: <47D5ADD8.2060903@sun.com> Sender: binarycrusader@gmail.com To: Joseph Kowalski Cc: "Garrett D'Amore" , Bart Smaalders , Danek Duvall , Octave Orgeron , psarc-ext@sun.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references:x-google-sender-auth; bh=xjRHXeKDkSBkKNhn0Z1QATMMN7UxllJmLCBMAZnL9M8=; b=Po33k/hDQ66ixGUZ7rcChM7jvwS8UpcH1o63+WCIzHF4Jmf9pFM2+DnfbALySV2PzIA1zjTVJIj7XdRAlvVkn/cHagsHmLUyl1qunj5dkPM8/uZcm41SRvshSTs4YcCh3NIZ5tDcUy4R8A0zX103zQggczj0uPvr6iXCFQ7Jx40= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=ggGLQm0h4TMrPbmVmTsx1d27WgRRumB1ee8I4gSuf3cYqTFfFahfqy/+Rcq0lIOXgpbOHSe3hRkG4+TdykWXqgWEUP71PkW0x7HwbpvbjvgRE0LBZZSDJW4qFSIc/Wb9nFHMHYv/2tHxExFazjD1qqrs142jnWUK252tPE5D2Ek= X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== X-Google-Sender-Auth: 16483e620a7b9304 X-Antispam: No, score=-2.6/5.0, scanned in 0.516sec at (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smf-spamd v1.3.1 - http://smfs.sf.net/ References: <178362.70959.qm@web30804.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20080309081139.GD16041@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <47D41416.8070505@sun.com> <47D56A20.1090903@Sun.COM> <47D57890.5000002@Sun.COM> <47D5830B.2060005@sun.com> <47D5ADD8.2060903@sun.com> Status: RO Content-Length: 1096 On Mon, Mar 10, 2008 at 4:53 PM, Joseph Kowalski wrote: > Shawn Walker wrote: > > I think a better way to handle it is as you suggested: only put things > > intended for "humans to type" in /usr/bin (and thus, the PATH). > > > Does this imply that system administrators aren't human. I somehow > always suspected that :-) > > (Please *really* note the smiley.) > > Seriously, are you a proponent of eliminating /usr/sbin. I personally have no feeling one way or another on /usr/sbin. I just know that "executable files" (as others have pointed out) that are really intended for the internal operation of a piece of software, not as an "interface" for human beings, serve little purpose in /usr/bin. That and I *very frequently* use commands found only in /usr/sbin, such as the zfs ones. I wasn't part of the serendipitous discovery discussion; but I felt compelled to comment on this particular one. -- Shawn Walker, Software and Systems Analyst http://binarycrusader.blogspot.com/ "To err is human -- and to blame it on a computer is even more so." - Robert Orben From gdamore@sun.com Mon Mar 10 15:04:35 2008 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m2AM4Yvv022115 for ; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 15:04:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m2AM4Tgq011580; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 22:04:32 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JXJ00B0JBZIFL00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 15:04:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sca-es-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.43.132]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JXJ00AP8BZHKHA0@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 15:04:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fe-sfbay-10.sun.com ([192.18.43.129]) by sca-es-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m2AM4Tuj010279; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 15:04:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.fe-sfbay-10.sun.com by fe-sfbay-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0JXJ00601BBVM100@fe-sfbay-10.sun.com> (original mail from gdamore@sun.com) ; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 15:04:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.251.106] ([76.174.83.55]) by fe-sfbay-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0JXJ000N3BZAD690@fe-sfbay-10.sun.com>; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 15:04:22 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2008 15:01:55 -0700 From: "Garrett D'Amore" Subject: Re: Nethack 3.4.3 [PSARC/2008/172 FastTrack timeout 03/11/2008] In-reply-to: <47D5ADD8.2060903@sun.com> Sender: Garrett.Damore@sun.com To: Joseph Kowalski Cc: Shawn Walker , Bart Smaalders , Danek Duvall , Octave Orgeron , PSARC-ext@sun.com Message-id: <47D5AFD3.3060702@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <178362.70959.qm@web30804.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20080309081139.GD16041@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <47D41416.8070505@sun.com> <47D56A20.1090903@Sun.COM> <47D57890.5000002@Sun.COM> <47D5830B.2060005@sun.com> <47D5ADD8.2060903@sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (X11/20071023) Status: RO Content-Length: 1869 Joseph Kowalski wrote: > Shawn Walker wrote: >> I think a better way to handle it is as you suggested: only put things >> intended for "humans to type" in /usr/bin (and thus, the PATH). >> > Does this imply that system administrators aren't human. I somehow > always suspected that :-) > > (Please *really* note the smiley.) > > Seriously, are you a proponent of eliminating /usr/sbin. Not necessarily speaking for Shawn here, but I would say that: a) only putting things intended for "humans to type" doesn't mean "putting all things that humans are intended to type" b) system administrators can reasonably be expected to have /usr/sbin in their path. My view is that the "path" should normally be viewed as some small set of directories: /usr/bin: always on the path /usr/sbin: added if the person is an administrator /usr/X11/bin: added if the person is running in an X11 interactive environment /usr/openwin/bin: legacy addition that should be made a symlink to /usr/X11/bin (IMO) /usr/dt/bin: added if the person is running CDE /usr/gnome/bin (hypothetical): added if the person is running gnome /usr/ccs/bin: added for some compiler users -- but almost everything here really belongs in /usr/bin, IMO /usr/ucb: added only for BSD compatibility -- would like to see most of this go away some day, or be relegated to a symlink farm to /usr/bin... /usr/xpg{4,6}/bin: POSIX compatibility, overrides for /usr/bin where required /usr/lib, /usr/libexec, etc. : never on an interactive PATH If folks choosing where to put programs could choose intelligently from one of the above locations, a lot would self-resolve, IMO. Part of the problem, I think, is that the aforementioned intelligence somehow seems lacking.... Btw, I am ambivalent on the existence of /usr/games. Its not in my PATH, in any event. :-) -- Garrett > > - jek3 > From jek3@sun.com Mon Mar 10 15:59:52 2008 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m2AMxpMc024547 for ; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 15:59:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m2AMxjvj005909; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 22:59:48 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JXJ00D0JEJMH200@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 15:59:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com ([129.146.17.59]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JXJ00B2KEJLSHB0@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 15:59:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [129.150.13.200] (vpn-129-150-13-200.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.13.200]) by jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.2+Sun/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m2AMxh4v535175; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 15:59:44 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2008 12:57:21 -1000 From: Joseph Kowalski Subject: Re: Nethack 3.4.3 [PSARC/2008/172 FastTrack timeout 03/11/2008] In-reply-to: <20080310220036.GF24360@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> To: Danek Duvall Cc: Shawn Walker , Bart Smaalders , "Garrett D'Amore" , Octave Orgeron , PSARC-ext@sun.com Message-id: <47D5BCD1.2070404@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <178362.70959.qm@web30804.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20080309081139.GD16041@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <47D41416.8070505@sun.com> <47D56A20.1090903@Sun.COM> <47D57890.5000002@Sun.COM> <47D5AB56.4050306@sun.com> <20080310220036.GF24360@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (X11/20071119) Status: RO Content-Length: 459 Danek Duvall wrote: > On Mon, Mar 10, 2008 at 11:42:46AM -1000, Joseph Kowalski wrote: > > >> (All though nethack sounds a little like it belongs in /sbin.) >> > > Only if it were needed before /usr were mounted. While I agree that it > should go into the failsafe archive for use at this time, the only reason > to put it in /sbin would be if it could assist you in mounting /usr. > Sorry, I meant to say /usr/sbin. It was joke anyway. - jek3 From James.Walker@sun.com Mon Mar 10 19:26:14 2008 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m2B2QEhC000821 for ; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 19:26:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m2B2QD22013794 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-ext@sun.com>; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 19:26:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JXJ00207O3QTE00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Mon, 10 Mar 2008 19:26:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.98.43]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JXJ00L3HO3OO8D0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Mon, 10 Mar 2008 19:26:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fe-amer-09.sun.com ([192.18.109.79]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m2B2QCD3028542 for ; Tue, 11 Mar 2008 02:26:12 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.mail-amer.sun.com by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0JXJ00601O2PUK00@mail-amer.sun.com> (original mail from James.Walker@Sun.COM) for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Mon, 10 Mar 2008 20:26:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [172.20.24.217] by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0JXJ00A37O3NJPG0@mail-amer.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Mon, 10 Mar 2008 20:26:11 -0600 (MDT) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2008 20:32:53 -0600 From: Jim Walker Subject: Re: Nethack 3.4.3 [PSARC/2008/172 FastTrack timeout 03/11/2008] In-reply-to: <47D45A55.5050004@Sun.Com> Sender: James.Walker@sun.com To: John Plocher Cc: PSARC-ext@sun.com Reply-to: James.Walker@sun.com Message-id: <47D5EF55.5010405@sun.com> Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc. MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <178362.70959.qm@web30804.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20080309081139.GD16041@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <47D41416.8070505@sun.com> <47D42299.1080309@sun.com> <47D45A55.5050004@Sun.Com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (X11/20080213) Status: RO Content-Length: 1061 John Plocher wrote: > Jim Walker wrote: >> BTW. When would the execution directory namespace settle down? > > If we "fixed" PATH, this could become "no longer a problem". > > Not to design on the fly, but :-) if we were to extend its semantics to > include wildcards, we could have > > PATH=/usr/bin:/usr/applications/*:... > > and you would never need to change your PATH setting again... This isn't a > serious suggestion (I haven't thought about the ramifications...), but simply > an observation that things look different once you get outside the box... > Staying outside the box... Why don't we turn things upside down with a couple of new variables. PATHAUTO when true the PATH variable is ignored, and the internal command hash equals all commands on the system minus any found in directories listed in PATHIGNORE. PATHIGNORE lists the paths to ignore from the command path when PATHAUTO is on. Most users would have PATHAUTO on and most developers wouldn't, and the namespace lords would continue to have fun keeping commands unique. :) From unixconsole@yahoo.com Mon Mar 10 22:31:51 2008 Received: from sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m2B5VooH005590 for ; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 22:31:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m2B5VZLl013915 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-ext@sun.com>; Tue, 11 Mar 2008 13:31:49 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JXJ00703WOZDI00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Mon, 10 Mar 2008 22:31:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.98.43]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JXJ004KEWOZ4F50@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Mon, 10 Mar 2008 22:31:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay42i.sun.com ([192.5.209.72]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m2B4jXnk007944 for ; Tue, 11 Mar 2008 05:31:46 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mms48es.sun.com ([160.41.221.231] [160.41.221.231]) by relay42i.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-95212 for PSARC-ext@sun.com; Tue, 11 Mar 2008 05:31:46 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay44i.sun.com (relay44i.sun.com [192.5.209.118]) by mms48es.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-1710001 for PSARC-ext@sun.com; Tue, 11 Mar 2008 05:31:46 +0000 (Z) Received: from web30804.mail.mud.yahoo.com ([68.142.200.147] [68.142.200.147]) by relay4i.sun.com id BT-MMP-16757530 for PSARC-ext@sun.com; Tue, 11 Mar 2008 05:31:45 +0000 (Z) Received: (qmail 64778 invoked by uid 60001); Tue, 11 Mar 2008 05:31:45 +0000 Received: from [71.2.176.131] by web30804.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 22:31:45 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2008 22:31:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Octave Orgeron Subject: Re: Nethack 3.4.3 [PSARC/2008/172 FastTrack timeout 03/11/2008] To: Bart Smaalders , "Garrett D'Amore" Cc: Danek Duvall , Shawn Walker , PSARC-ext@sun.com, Joseph Kowalski Message-id: <402738.64334.qm@web30804.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/902.35 YahooMailWebService/0.7.185 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Date:From:Subject:To:Cc:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Message-ID; b=hzhnuDXP8PnC377PUYspWliHlSYCQvIqg3fAi8Fo9vxlG1w9TQSzXDm6aUIYwt0IrDX65IqUPbtv6+LK9ehkj9MGHRwwOCqcFPUxXwoHOZlnIehFQ3fCT/CSvF7mPLcLO1DNcK2yM14fcUs7gFTFZzzs1FqjeiOYDLJ2qs7sSPw=; X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== X-YMail-OSG: plap16YVM1lzmvpiV5cgaXoSl9wEKrsJosFBi9.ZUuWkU9plHT9FjZQ71L7oCoJnJk4PgJ4LTkYJRFNi0TJIZq.gTCWW0EHiEazQGZqZ3MSLDwPNTOg- X-Antispam: No, score=-2.6/5.0, scanned in 0.200sec at (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smf-spamd v1.3.1 - http://smfs.sf.net/ Status: RO Content-Length: 9388 Hi, On the issue of /usr/sfw.. the problem for users and companies alike is that you don't see /usr/sfw on any other UNIX or UNIX-like system. It's not something people would even think of looking at, unless they took the time to explore. However, to suggest that /usr/bin, /usr/sbin, /sbin, /bin, /usr/X*/bin, etc. are somehow outdated is a bit unfounded. Users, sys-admins, and developers alike are familiar with these directories on other platforms, so they are very relevant. The biggest compliant I've seen in large shops about S10 is how all the *desktop* stuff has been dumped into /usr/bin, specifically Gnome. As a result, many shops un-install these components to *clean* things up and then wonder why things are broken when they try to login to Gnome. And there are plenty of shops that go install things like the blastwave packages to give everyone the choice of things like a newer version of Gnome, KDE, xfce, etc. Does it make sense to put Gnome in /usr/bin for customers who want the flexibility to install or roll their own? The real problem that's coming out of this is.. who is our target audience? Are we trying to cater to the Linux crowd? Realistically, we'll probably never convert them as a whole to Solaris. Just as you can't expect every Windows user to switch to Mac OS X. But those who do make the switch do so because it's different and because it provides value. The goal here should be to provide real differentiating value. Solaris has stood out in the sense that it embraces standards at the API and ABI level. We should build upon that, not emulate another OS just to be the *same*. Overall, I think we can agree there are definitely some out-dated components, conventions, and directories in Solaris. Perhaps things like /usr/games, /usr/sfw, or /usr/sadm don't make a lot of sense. However, there are items that exist for compatibility, standards, and compliance. We supply personalities.. /usr/gnu, /usr/xpg4, /usr/xpg6, /usr/ucb. Why? To give customers choice. Users know that they have to change their $PATH to get the desired result. To assume that customers at some level don't understand the use of $PATH, is a bit short sighted and perhaps even insulting. There will always be a user that needs help with things like this, but that is why sys-admins and application owners (web admins, db admins, etc.) are employed. Now, does that mean we shouldn't bother making it easier for users? Of course not. But, I am deeply concerned that we may take things to the extreme and ultimately make /usr/bin a nightmare for both users, sys-admins, and developers alike. I'd hate for users to complain that there's "too much stuff" in /usr/bin and that they can't *find* the command they're looking for. This only leads to users requesting the amount of stuff to be cut back.. which means extra cycles spent by sys-admins creating a scaled down OS install. Not my idea of fun! If we're trying to make Gnome better, then perhaps we need to make better $PATH statements in the login session that users inherit? Perhaps we need to include more of the GUI tools in the Gnome menus. I don't see dhcpmgr, printmgr, or smc in the Gnome menus for example. And the menus are not dependent upon $PATH. Wouldn't it be easier to have better default $PATH statements? The concept that was mentioned earlier of having an AUTOPATH was interesting. Another way to look at this is.. when customers install something like Oracle or Weblogic for example.. they don't install it into /usr/bin. Why is that? If we were to apply the logic of throwing everything into /usr/bin to make life easier, shouldn't those binaries go into /usr/bin? The answer is simple. It is generally accepted that /usr/bin contains OS tools and commands, not 3rd party apps or non-OS related items. Directories and paths are used to separate tools, apps, data, etc. just in the same way that humans have organized everything from libraries and filing cabinets to cities and governments. To not separate things in some logical manner is counter intuitive. The mind seeks organization:) We are in this quandary because we are including more components into Solaris that are not really related to the core OS functionality and need some way of making it easier for users to find those items. When users login from the command line, we have standard methods for setting things like $PATH, for example /etc/profile. When users log into CDE or Gnome, there is a multitude of shell variables that are set automatically. If we leveraged these tools, is there a real need for having everything in /usr/bin?? So where do we draw the line? How do we determine what should go into /usr/bin vs. /usr/sbin or /usr///bin? Kinda brings us back to what I had suggested earlier.. 1. If an app is to go into /usr/bin, it must meet these requirements: - It is not an administrative command that requires privs. If so, it may have to go into /usr/sbin. - Its name does not conflict with a standard command already located in /usr/bin -It does not conflict with the default Solaris behavior. If so, it should be located in the appropriate/usr/ name space, (/usr/gnu, /usr/ucb, /usr/xpg4, /usr/xpg6). - It does not require the support of multiple versions. -It is not a large suite of software (i.e. X11, Gnome, CDE, OpenWindows, Postgres,MySQL, Apache, Sun Cluster, etc.).If so, it should be located in/usr/// directory. 2. If an app is to be sym-linked into /usr/bin, it must meet these requirements: -It must be appropriate for general consumption by users and otherapplications (i.e. mv, ls , pgrep, soffice, firefox, gcc, cc) - Itis part of a larger suite of software, located in /usr//, that is appropriate for general consumptionby users and other applications (i.e. StarOffice, Gnome applications,Firefox, gcc, cc, perl, java). This does not include application leveladministrative/priv binaries (i.e. Xsun, httpd, scinstall, gdm, xdm). - The latest version is sym-linked without a version number. For example, /usr/bin/java would link to java 6, and /usr/bin/java1.5 would link to java 1.5. This would lead to things like: /usr/gnome/ /usr/kde/ /usr/apache/ /usr/mysql/ /usr/postgres/ /usr/JES/ /usr/webmin/ etc. Of course, this could lead to a larger /usr. For example, it would be silly to separate out the JES software since all the components are part of a larger suite. So there is possibility for some consolidation. This seems like a more reasonable approach when combined with proper $PATH and shell environmental variables. The concept of having auto-discovery is interesting. Perhaps something like /etc/auto{path, man, lib, etc.} would make sense. That way when software is installed, it updates those configuration files. If someone wants to use those variables, they can set a variable, like "export AUTODISCOVERY=true" in their profile. Perhaps make it the default or a GUI option in Gnome? *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Octave J. Orgeron Solaris Systems Engineer http://www.opensolaris.org/os/community/sysadmin/ http://unixconsole.blogspot.com unixconsole@yahoo.com *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* ----- Original Message ---- From: Bart Smaalders To: Garrett D'Amore Cc: Danek Duvall ; Octave Orgeron ; Shawn Walker ; PSARC-ext@sun.com; Joseph Kowalski Sent: Monday, March 10, 2008 12:04:32 PM Subject: Re: Nethack 3.4.3 [PSARC/2008/172 FastTrack timeout 03/11/2008] Garrett D'Amore wrote: > There's another performance aspect though. Searching through > directories is proportional to the number of entires in it. If you're using UFS. On ZFS, no. > One could > argue that the most frequently accessed stuff should be in /usr/bin, and > other, less frequently accessed stuff, could live in directories that > appeared later in the search path, or were more easily pruned from > user's paths. Given that the next release of Solaris will use ZFS as it's root filesystem, any arguments about lookup performance are moot. (They're moot on UFS, too, of course, because of the DNLC.) -There is no good reason to place commands in multiple existing directories. There is REALLY no good reason to propose new directories. Using directory location as an indexing method for software makes no sense, because the user and system admin cost is so high when someone decides to add a new directory - every Solaris user around the world would need his/her path variables changed to see the new software. Ask around and find out how many people never discovered that gcc was present on every S10 full install in /usr/sfw. If you want better indexing and information on available commands, fine. Build better docs, help tools, etc - _don't_ try to implement this via adding more directories in the user's path. - Bart -- Bart Smaalders Solaris Kernel Performance barts@cyber.eng.sun.com http://blogs.sun.com/barts "You will contribute more with mercurial than with thunderbird." ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From Nicolas.Williams@sun.com Tue Mar 11 21:37:41 2008 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m2C4beer027774 for ; Tue, 11 Mar 2008 21:37:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m2C4bUKO009264; Wed, 12 Mar 2008 04:37:37 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JXL00D03OUO0F00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Tue, 11 Mar 2008 22:37:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM ([129.153.128.104]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JXL009IXOUOE410@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Tue, 11 Mar 2008 22:37:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m2C4bWg7010704; Tue, 11 Mar 2008 23:37:32 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from nw141292@localhost) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1/Submit) id m2C4bWx5010703; Tue, 11 Mar 2008 23:37:32 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2008 23:37:32 -0500 From: Nicolas Williams Subject: Re: Nethack 3.4.3 [PSARC/2008/172 FastTrack timeout 03/11/2008] In-reply-to: <47D5830B.2060005@sun.com> To: "Garrett D'Amore" Cc: Shawn Walker , Bart Smaalders , Danek Duvall , Octave Orgeron , PSARC-ext@sun.com, Joseph Kowalski Mail-followup-to: Garrett D'Amore , Shawn Walker , Bart Smaalders , Danek Duvall , Octave Orgeron , PSARC-ext@sun.com, Joseph Kowalski Message-id: <20080312043731.GH986@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <178362.70959.qm@web30804.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20080309081139.GD16041@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <47D41416.8070505@sun.com> <47D56A20.1090903@Sun.COM> <47D57890.5000002@Sun.COM> <47D5830B.2060005@sun.com> X-Authentication-warning: binky.Central.Sun.COM: nw141292 set sender to Nicolas.Williams@sun.com using -f User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.7i Status: RO Content-Length: 2200 On Mon, Mar 10, 2008 at 11:50:51AM -0700, Garrett D'Amore wrote: > The argument that commands which only get started by the GUI should not > be accessible via /usr/bin (or some other "easily accessible" path, such > as /usr/gnome/bin or somesuch, ala /usr/dt/bin) is probably being made > mostly by folks who don't really use a CLI for most of their work. I live in screen(1) in whatever GUI terminal works best for me wherever I happen to be. So, ssh to my desktop, attach to my screen, use mutt for e-mail, CLI tools for practically everything except browsing the web (but I use lynx for reading HTML e-mail) and viewing PDFs. When I have to I break out StarOffice. That's my work environment in a nutshell. You might want to look at my .kshrc.user, .kshaliases and .kshcd files sometime -- let me know and I'll e-mail them to you. And trust me, my view is everything I'd run from the CLI belongs in /usr/bin, with the exception of some admin things that may belong in /usr/sbin. I do start firefox, evince, xpdf and soffice from the CLI some times and some others via the GUI. In other words: pffft :) :) > (Now, "helper" applications, such as a program that is really only a > helper for another GUI application, are a different matter entirely. > /usr/bin/totem-video-indexer is a good example. I suspect that it > serves no useful purpose living in /usr/bin.) Correct. We agree those go in /usr/lib. > Btw, I'm actually moderately offended that gnome/autoconfig tools seem > to like to put the "-config" programs in ${prefix}/bin rather > ${prefix}/lib. These programs are only ever used by > autoconfig/automake subsystems, when building software. Yes, I believe > ${prefix}/bin should be for commands that humans type. :-) But guess what: configure needs to be able to find those! So how will it if those are not in your $PATH? And what will users think when configure doesn't do what they think it should? (Hint: most likely we'll just piss off FOSS developers who find that they have to do things they'd rather not to build on Solaris.) Users can't be expected to know what to add to $PATH to get configure to know how to find *-config. No way. Nico -- From Nicolas.Williams@sun.com Tue Mar 11 21:40:18 2008 Received: from newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (newsunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.245]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m2C4eIaa027805 for ; Tue, 11 Mar 2008 21:40:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m2C4eGd6058713; Tue, 11 Mar 2008 22:40:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JXL0000JOZ55L00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Tue, 11 Mar 2008 21:40:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM ([129.153.128.104]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JXL004DZOZ4AAE0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Tue, 11 Mar 2008 21:40:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m2C4eFkP010713; Tue, 11 Mar 2008 23:40:15 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from nw141292@localhost) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1/Submit) id m2C4eFIX010712; Tue, 11 Mar 2008 23:40:15 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2008 23:40:15 -0500 From: Nicolas Williams Subject: Re: Nethack 3.4.3 [PSARC/2008/172 FastTrack timeout 03/11/2008] In-reply-to: To: Shawn Walker Cc: "Garrett D'Amore" , Danek Duvall , Joseph Kowalski , PSARC-ext@sun.com Mail-followup-to: Shawn Walker , Garrett D'Amore , Danek Duvall , Joseph Kowalski , PSARC-ext@sun.com Message-id: <20080312044015.GI986@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <178362.70959.qm@web30804.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20080309081139.GD16041@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <47D41416.8070505@sun.com> <47D56A20.1090903@Sun.COM> <47D57890.5000002@Sun.COM> <47D5830B.2060005@sun.com> X-Authentication-warning: binky.Central.Sun.COM: nw141292 set sender to Nicolas.Williams@sun.com using -f User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.7i Status: RO Content-Length: 477 On Mon, Mar 10, 2008 at 02:06:55PM -0500, Shawn Walker wrote: > I think a better way to handle it is as you suggested: only put things > intended for "humans to type" in /usr/bin (and thus, the PATH). Well, I do think that scripts need to be careful to set PATH correctly, but still, Garret's autoconf/configure and *-config example is very instructive, even if in the opposite way that he intended. But then, script writing shouldn't be made unnecessarily harder. Nico -- From gdamore@sun.com Tue Mar 11 23:04:24 2008 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m2C64O7M000360 for ; Tue, 11 Mar 2008 23:04:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m2C64LrJ007039 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-ext@sun.com>; Wed, 12 Mar 2008 06:04:22 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JXL00901SV9B200@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@Sun.COM); Tue, 11 Mar 2008 23:04:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sca-es-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.43.132]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JXL001O6SV9ZL20@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@Sun.COM); Tue, 11 Mar 2008 23:04:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fe-sfbay-10.sun.com ([192.18.43.129]) by sca-es-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m2C64Lv6027711 for ; Tue, 11 Mar 2008 23:04:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.fe-sfbay-10.sun.com by fe-sfbay-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0JXL00E01SQB4E00@fe-sfbay-10.sun.com> (original mail from gdamore@sun.com) for PSARC-ext@Sun.COM (ORCPT PSARC-ext@Sun.COM); Tue, 11 Mar 2008 23:04:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.251.106] ([76.174.83.55]) by fe-sfbay-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0JXL00DURSV8ER90@fe-sfbay-10.sun.com>; Tue, 11 Mar 2008 23:04:21 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2008 23:01:51 -0700 From: "Garrett D'Amore" Subject: Re: Nethack 3.4.3 [PSARC/2008/172 FastTrack timeout 03/11/2008] In-reply-to: <20080312044015.GI986@Sun.COM> Sender: Garrett.Damore@sun.com To: Shawn Walker , "Garrett D'Amore" , Danek Duvall , Joseph Kowalski , PSARC-ext@sun.com Message-id: <47D771CF.20802@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <178362.70959.qm@web30804.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20080309081139.GD16041@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <47D41416.8070505@sun.com> <47D56A20.1090903@Sun.COM> <47D57890.5000002@Sun.COM> <47D5830B.2060005@sun.com> <20080312044015.GI986@Sun.COM> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (X11/20071023) Status: RO Content-Length: 1977 Nicolas Williams wrote: > On Mon, Mar 10, 2008 at 02:06:55PM -0500, Shawn Walker wrote: > >> I think a better way to handle it is as you suggested: only put things >> intended for "humans to type" in /usr/bin (and thus, the PATH). >> > > Well, I do think that scripts need to be careful to set PATH correctly, > but still, Garret's autoconf/configure and *-config example is very > instructive, even if in the opposite way that he intended. > > But then, script writing shouldn't be made unnecessarily harder. > > Nico > Ugh. I just can't seem to resist replying. Sorry in advance.... Looking at *-config, I was bemoaning the fact that these FOSS packages feel the need to drop their detritus in my path. There are far far better solutions that could have been done had some actual "engineering" taken place. (E.g. a common registry, or dot files in ~, or something.) Heck even manually searching the items in PATH with an append of "../lib/" or somesuch. However, I also understand that we can't change the world. Unfortunately, it appears that in the current regime, when Linux or GPL delivers stuff that is basically crap (don't even get me started on autoconf/automake!), the expectation is that we will ship the same crap, in more or less the same locations, all to serve the new higher god of "serendipitous discovery" (or Linux "compatibility".) Can't say that I'm thrilled that we seem so willing to abdicate our engineering decisions to FOSS groups who have repeatedly shown (at least IMO) that they often have little regard for sound architecture, and even less regard for portability to Solaris or stable interfaces. Oh well.... hopefully its helping to win hearts and minds somewhere, or something like that. -- Garrett /me longs for the day when Linux was trying to be more like Solaris -- early FSSTND -- that's the precursor to FHS -- were inspired greatly by Solaris and SunOS, rather than the reverse. From alan.coopersmith@sun.com Wed Mar 12 07:39:05 2008 Received: from sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m2CEd4f5013226 for ; Wed, 12 Mar 2008 07:39:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m2CEcpku026824; Wed, 12 Mar 2008 22:39:00 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JXM00A0XGOZLA00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 12 Mar 2008 08:38:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sfbaymail1sca.SFBay.Sun.COM ([129.145.154.35]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JXM0085NGOXQU20@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 12 Mar 2008 08:38:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [192.168.0.101] (vpn-129-150-19-67.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.19.67]) by sfbaymail1sca.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.13.6+Sun/8.13.6/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m2CEcsZ8021261; Wed, 12 Mar 2008 07:38:55 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 07:38:48 -0700 From: Alan Coopersmith Subject: Re: Nethack 3.4.3 [PSARC/2008/172 FastTrack timeout 03/11/2008] In-reply-to: <47D771CF.20802@sun.com> To: "Garrett D'Amore" Cc: Shawn Walker , Danek Duvall , Joseph Kowalski , PSARC-ext@sun.com Message-id: <47D7EAF8.9050204@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <178362.70959.qm@web30804.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20080309081139.GD16041@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <47D41416.8070505@sun.com> <47D56A20.1090903@Sun.COM> <47D57890.5000002@Sun.COM> <47D5830B.2060005@sun.com> <20080312044015.GI986@Sun.COM> <47D771CF.20802@sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (X11/20060602) Status: RO Content-Length: 797 Garrett D'Amore wrote: > Looking at *-config, I was bemoaning the fact that these FOSS packages > feel the need to drop their detritus in my path. There are far far > better solutions that could have been done had some actual "engineering" > taken place. (E.g. a common registry, or dot files in ~, or > something.) *-config only exist for backwards compatibility in most packages now, because some engineering was done several years ago, and most packages have moved to providing *.pc data files used by the common pkg-config command. Compare the number of files in /usr/lib/pkgconfig to the number of /usr/bin/*-config commands and learn just what you were saved from. -- -Alan Coopersmith- alan.coopersmith@sun.com Sun Microsystems, Inc. - X Window System Engineering From Garrett.Damore@sun.com Wed Mar 12 07:46:49 2008 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m2CEkn79013292 for ; Wed, 12 Mar 2008 07:46:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m2CEklRM010875 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-ext@sun.com>; Wed, 12 Mar 2008 07:46:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JXM00B15H202X00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Wed, 12 Mar 2008 08:46:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sca-es-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.43.132]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JXM0087IH1WQW40@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Wed, 12 Mar 2008 08:46:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from fe-sfbay-10.sun.com ([192.18.43.129]) by sca-es-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m2CEkiOW014118 for ; Wed, 12 Mar 2008 07:46:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.fe-sfbay-10.sun.com by fe-sfbay-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0JXM00701GRWJ500@fe-sfbay-10.sun.com> (original mail from Garrett.Damore@Sun.COM) for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Wed, 12 Mar 2008 07:46:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [129.153.2.14] by fe-sfbay-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0JXM00FJNH1PAE80@fe-sfbay-10.sun.com>; Wed, 12 Mar 2008 07:46:42 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 07:46:37 -0700 From: "Garrett D'Amore" Subject: Re: Nethack 3.4.3 [PSARC/2008/172 FastTrack timeout 03/11/2008] In-reply-to: <47D7EAF8.9050204@sun.com> Sender: Garrett.Damore@sun.com To: Alan Coopersmith Cc: "Garrett D'Amore" , Shawn Walker , Danek Duvall , Joseph Kowalski , PSARC-ext@sun.com Message-id: <47D7ECCD.1030104@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <178362.70959.qm@web30804.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20080309081139.GD16041@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <47D41416.8070505@sun.com> <47D56A20.1090903@Sun.COM> <47D57890.5000002@Sun.COM> <47D5830B.2060005@sun.com> <20080312044015.GI986@Sun.COM> <47D771CF.20802@sun.com> <47D7EAF8.9050204@sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (X11/20070802) Status: RO Content-Length: 763 Alan Coopersmith wrote: > Garrett D'Amore wrote: >> Looking at *-config, I was bemoaning the fact that these FOSS >> packages feel the need to drop their detritus in my path. There are >> far far better solutions that could have been done had some actual >> "engineering" taken place. (E.g. a common registry, or dot files in >> ~, or something.) > > *-config only exist for backwards compatibility in most packages now, > because some engineering was done several years ago, and most packages > have moved to providing *.pc data files used by the common pkg-config > command. Compare the number of files in /usr/lib/pkgconfig to the > number of /usr/bin/*-config commands and learn just what you were > saved from. In a word, "Yay!" -- Garrett From jek3@sun.com Wed Mar 12 11:11:59 2008 Received: from sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m2CIBwgw026452 for ; Wed, 12 Mar 2008 11:11:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m2CIBpoK029667; Thu, 13 Mar 2008 02:11:54 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JXM00A03QJR6M00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 12 Mar 2008 11:11:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com ([129.146.17.63]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JXM008JCQJRYT10@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 12 Mar 2008 11:11:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [129.150.13.200] (vpn-129-150-13-200.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.13.200]) by jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.2+Sun/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m2CIBnVV232580; Wed, 12 Mar 2008 11:11:50 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 08:09:24 -1000 From: Joseph Kowalski Subject: Re: Nethack 3.4.3 [PSARC/2008/172 FastTrack timeout 03/11/2008] In-reply-to: <20080312043731.GH986@Sun.COM> To: "Garrett D'Amore" , Shawn Walker , Bart Smaalders , Danek Duvall , Octave Orgeron , PSARC-ext@sun.com, Joseph Kowalski Message-id: <47D81C54.3010802@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <178362.70959.qm@web30804.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20080309081139.GD16041@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <47D41416.8070505@sun.com> <47D56A20.1090903@Sun.COM> <47D57890.5000002@Sun.COM> <47D5830B.2060005@sun.com> <20080312043731.GH986@Sun.COM> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (X11/20071119) Status: RO Content-Length: 742 Nicolas Williams wrote: >> (Now, "helper" applications, such as a program that is really only a >> helper for another GUI application, are a different matter entirely. >> /usr/bin/totem-video-indexer is a good example. I suspect that it >> serves no useful purpose living in /usr/bin.) >> > > Correct. We agree those go in /usr/lib. > Well maybe. Certainly not /usr/bin, but perhaps we are starting to add too much to the clutter. Sorta like sweeping the crumbs from one room to another. BTW: The number of entries in /usr/lib used to be much more of a performance issue than /usr/bin ever was (ld.so.1 does a lot more stats than sh). I don't know the current state (maybe fast caches lower this into the noise.) - jek3 From Nicolas.Williams@sun.com Wed Mar 12 11:30:14 2008 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m2CIUET6027033 for ; Wed, 12 Mar 2008 11:30:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m2CIU9LO003883; Wed, 12 Mar 2008 18:30:10 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JXM0017RRE8XL00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 12 Mar 2008 12:30:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM ([129.153.128.104]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JXM00JJHRE49A60@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 12 Mar 2008 12:30:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m2CIU3tP011277; Wed, 12 Mar 2008 13:30:03 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from nw141292@localhost) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1/Submit) id m2CIU3Ue011276; Wed, 12 Mar 2008 13:30:03 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 13:30:03 -0500 From: Nicolas Williams Subject: Re: Nethack 3.4.3 [PSARC/2008/172 FastTrack timeout 03/11/2008] In-reply-to: <47D81C54.3010802@sun.com> To: Joseph Kowalski Cc: "Garrett D'Amore" , Shawn Walker , Bart Smaalders , Danek Duvall , Octave Orgeron , PSARC-ext@sun.com Mail-followup-to: Joseph Kowalski , Garrett D'Amore , Shawn Walker , Bart Smaalders , Danek Duvall , Octave Orgeron , PSARC-ext@sun.com Message-id: <20080312183003.GY986@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <178362.70959.qm@web30804.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20080309081139.GD16041@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <47D41416.8070505@sun.com> <47D56A20.1090903@Sun.COM> <47D57890.5000002@Sun.COM> <47D5830B.2060005@sun.com> <20080312043731.GH986@Sun.COM> <47D81C54.3010802@sun.com> X-Authentication-warning: binky.Central.Sun.COM: nw141292 set sender to Nicolas.Williams@sun.com using -f User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.7i Status: RO Content-Length: 775 On Wed, Mar 12, 2008 at 08:09:24AM -1000, Joseph Kowalski wrote: > > Correct. We agree those go in /usr/lib. > > > Well maybe. Certainly not /usr/bin, but perhaps we are starting to > add too much to the clutter. Sorta like sweeping the crumbs from one > room to another. > > BTW: The number of entries in /usr/lib used to be much more of a > performance issue than /usr/bin ever was (ld.so.1 does a lot more > stats than sh). I don't know the current state (maybe fast caches > lower this into the noise.) Oh sure, I would be happy with /usr/lib/exec or /usr/libexec, or /usr/lib//... But I thought that all executables not to be run by users or sysadmins (e.g., daemons started by SMF) go into /usr/lib (having recently delivered such a thing...). Nico -- From Nicolas.Williams@sun.com Wed Mar 12 11:32:03 2008 Received: from newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (newsunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.245]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m2CIW3lW027085 for ; Wed, 12 Mar 2008 11:32:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m2CIW1YI036103; Wed, 12 Mar 2008 12:32:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JXM00C0LRHD7U00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 12 Mar 2008 11:32:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM ([129.153.128.104]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JXM008W8RHCYQ20@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 12 Mar 2008 11:32:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m2CIW0dp011284; Wed, 12 Mar 2008 13:32:00 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from nw141292@localhost) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1/Submit) id m2CIW0lv011283; Wed, 12 Mar 2008 13:32:00 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 13:32:00 -0500 From: Nicolas Williams Subject: Re: Nethack 3.4.3 [PSARC/2008/172 FastTrack timeout 03/11/2008] In-reply-to: <47D771CF.20802@sun.com> To: "Garrett D'Amore" Cc: Shawn Walker , Danek Duvall , Joseph Kowalski , PSARC-ext@sun.com Mail-followup-to: Garrett D'Amore , Shawn Walker , Danek Duvall , Joseph Kowalski , PSARC-ext@sun.com Message-id: <20080312183200.GZ986@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <20080309081139.GD16041@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <47D41416.8070505@sun.com> <47D56A20.1090903@Sun.COM> <47D57890.5000002@Sun.COM> <47D5830B.2060005@sun.com> <20080312044015.GI986@Sun.COM> <47D771CF.20802@sun.com> X-Authentication-warning: binky.Central.Sun.COM: nw141292 set sender to Nicolas.Williams@sun.com using -f User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.7i Status: RO Content-Length: 139 I agree, *-config shouldn't have to belong to /usr/bin. That they do is an accident of history that we probably cannot really change now. From jek3@sun.com Wed Mar 12 11:38:50 2008 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m2CIcnR0027365 for ; Wed, 12 Mar 2008 11:38:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m2CIcjHQ007653; Wed, 12 Mar 2008 18:38:45 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JXM00C0LRSKSZ00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 12 Mar 2008 11:38:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com ([129.146.17.63]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JXM00854RSIYT40@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 12 Mar 2008 11:38:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [129.150.13.200] (vpn-129-150-13-200.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.13.200]) by jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.2+Sun/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m2CIcfbV242029; Wed, 12 Mar 2008 11:38:41 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 08:36:16 -1000 From: Joseph Kowalski Subject: Re: Nethack 3.4.3 [PSARC/2008/172 FastTrack timeout 03/11/2008] In-reply-to: <47D771CF.20802@sun.com> To: "Garrett D'Amore" Cc: Shawn Walker , Danek Duvall , PSARC-ext@sun.com Message-id: <47D822A0.2080102@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <178362.70959.qm@web30804.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20080309081139.GD16041@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <47D41416.8070505@sun.com> <47D56A20.1090903@Sun.COM> <47D57890.5000002@Sun.COM> <47D5830B.2060005@sun.com> <20080312044015.GI986@Sun.COM> <47D771CF.20802@sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (X11/20071119) Status: RO Content-Length: 1657 Garrett D'Amore wrote: > Can't say that I'm thrilled that we seem so willing to abdicate our > engineering decisions to FOSS groups who have repeatedly shown (at > least IMO) that they often have little regard for sound architecture, > and even less regard for portability to Solaris or stable interfaces. > Oh well.... hopefully its helping to win hearts and minds somewhere, > or something like that. Be careful here. *We* are now a FOSS group. You shouldn't paint all FOSS groups with a "broad brush". I think the issue is that we don't do a good enough job of vetting the quality/supportability/stability of FOSS. This *has always* been part of the job, dating back to the original "include FOSS in Solaris" cases. This requirement hasn't changed. Note that this is the same basic problem for Ubuntu, RedHat, whoever... Solaris just has (had?) a higher bar. The other problem is that Solaris isn't Linux. It often takes some work to port Linux targeted FOSS to advanced Solaris facilities. Maybe we could help with a document or check list of these things. I suspect FOSS maintainers get rather annoyed when the first time they find out of such things is by the ARC or the c-teams. On the other side, the maintainers should understand that it often takes more than recompile to be part of the OpenSolaris community. I think FOSS guys can be neat. I'd even let my daughter marry one (after I checked his background). :-) However, this is a different thread (er, "not the digression from the digression from the `not this case` discussion). I just felt that we should be careful to not be pejorative to FOSS. - jek3 From jek3@sun.com Thu Mar 13 00:46:21 2008 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m2D7kLB2020639 for ; Thu, 13 Mar 2008 00:46:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m2D7kKcN021961; Thu, 13 Mar 2008 00:46:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JXN00307S98UG00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Thu, 13 Mar 2008 00:46:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com ([129.146.17.59]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JXN002WHS97OF10@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Thu, 13 Mar 2008 00:46:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [129.150.13.200] (vpn-129-150-13-200.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.13.200]) by jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.2+Sun/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m2D7kIlK444490; Thu, 13 Mar 2008 00:46:19 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 21:43:52 -1000 From: Joseph Kowalski Subject: Re: Nethack 3.4.3 [PSARC/2008/172 FastTrack timeout 03/11/2008] In-reply-to: <20080312183003.GY986@Sun.COM> To: Joseph Kowalski , "Garrett D'Amore" , Shawn Walker , Bart Smaalders , Danek Duvall , Octave Orgeron , PSARC-ext@sun.com Message-id: <47D8DB38.6040304@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <178362.70959.qm@web30804.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20080309081139.GD16041@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <47D41416.8070505@sun.com> <47D56A20.1090903@Sun.COM> <47D57890.5000002@Sun.COM> <47D5830B.2060005@sun.com> <20080312043731.GH986@Sun.COM> <47D81C54.3010802@sun.com> <20080312183003.GY986@Sun.COM> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (X11/20071119) Status: RO Content-Length: 1068 Nicolas Williams wrote: > On Wed, Mar 12, 2008 at 08:09:24AM -1000, Joseph Kowalski wrote: > >>> Correct. We agree those go in /usr/lib. >>> >>> >> Well maybe. Certainly not /usr/bin, but perhaps we are starting to >> add too much to the clutter. Sorta like sweeping the crumbs from one >> room to another. >> >> BTW: The number of entries in /usr/lib used to be much more of a >> performance issue than /usr/bin ever was (ld.so.1 does a lot more >> stats than sh). I don't know the current state (maybe fast caches >> lower this into the noise.) >> > > Oh sure, I would be happy with /usr/lib/exec or /usr/libexec, or > /usr/lib//... > > But I thought that all executables not to be run by users or sysadmins > (e.g., daemons started by SMF) go into /usr/lib (having recently > delivered such a thing...). > > Nico > Yes, using /usr/lib is existing practice. Should we improve on it (in this context)? I'm not sure its worth the effort, but I think we should consider such an improvement as we refine the /usr/bin semantics. - jek3 From Glynn.Foster@sun.com Thu Mar 13 14:50:51 2008 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m2DLooiC016750 for ; Thu, 13 Mar 2008 14:50:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m2DLodIK026965; Thu, 13 Mar 2008 21:50:48 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JXO00B05VCNBS00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Thu, 13 Mar 2008 14:50:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com ([192.18.98.34]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JXO008SSVCL7S50@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Thu, 13 Mar 2008 14:50:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fe-amer-10.sun.com ([192.18.109.80]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m2DLojE9026886; Thu, 13 Mar 2008 21:50:45 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.mail-amer.sun.com by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0JXO00301SB5UG00@mail-amer.sun.com> (original mail from Glynn.Foster@Sun.COM); Thu, 13 Mar 2008 15:50:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [10.7.250.13] by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0JXO003Y0VCFWA50@mail-amer.sun.com>; Thu, 13 Mar 2008 15:50:44 -0600 (MDT) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 10:51:02 +1300 From: Glynn Foster Subject: Re: Nethack 3.4.3 [PSARC/2008/172 FastTrack timeout 03/11/2008] In-reply-to: <47D5830B.2060005@sun.com> Sender: Glynn.Foster@sun.com To: "Garrett D'Amore" Cc: Shawn Walker , Bart Smaalders , Danek Duvall , Octave Orgeron , psarc-ext@sun.com, Joseph Kowalski Message-id: <47D9A1C6.40101@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <178362.70959.qm@web30804.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20080309081139.GD16041@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <47D41416.8070505@sun.com> <47D56A20.1090903@Sun.COM> <47D57890.5000002@Sun.COM> <47D5830B.2060005@sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (X11/20080201) Status: RO Content-Length: 1074 Garrett D'Amore wrote: > The argument that commands which only get started by the GUI should not > be accessible via /usr/bin (or some other "easily accessible" path, such > as /usr/gnome/bin or somesuch, ala /usr/dt/bin) is probably being made > mostly by folks who don't really use a CLI for most of their work. > There are a lot of us CLI folks out there, and even though we use GUI > applications, we often use a CLI to start them. Who's up for creating some sort of .hidden functionality for applications that you don't want to appear in tab file completion? :) > (Now, "helper" applications, such as a program that is really only a > helper for another GUI application, are a different matter entirely. > /usr/bin/totem-video-indexer is a good example. I suspect that it > serves no useful purpose living in /usr/bin.) Those are bugs really. The desktop team have sent many patches upstream to fix a lot of those, and make sure they get installed into ${libexecdir} instead. Unfortunately they usually get low priority from the maintainers. Glynn From Glynn.Foster@sun.com Thu Mar 13 14:56:20 2008 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m2DLuJtQ017068 for ; Thu, 13 Mar 2008 14:56:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m2DLuFUj028676 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-ext@sun.com>; Thu, 13 Mar 2008 21:56:18 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0JXO00F0FVLTA200@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Thu, 13 Mar 2008 14:56:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com ([192.18.98.34]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0JXO000PJVLSMPB0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Thu, 13 Mar 2008 14:56:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fe-amer-10.sun.com ([192.18.109.80]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m2DLuGVx028787 for ; Thu, 13 Mar 2008 21:56:16 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.mail-amer.sun.com by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0JXO00201VGY8H00@mail-amer.sun.com> (original mail from Glynn.Foster@Sun.COM) for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Thu, 13 Mar 2008 15:56:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [10.7.250.13] by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0JXO003N0VLJWA80@mail-amer.sun.com>; Thu, 13 Mar 2008 15:56:10 -0600 (MDT) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 10:56:31 +1300 From: Glynn Foster Subject: Re: Nethack 3.4.3 [PSARC/2008/172 FastTrack timeout 03/11/2008] In-reply-to: <20080312183200.GZ986@Sun.COM> Sender: Glynn.Foster@sun.com To: "Garrett D'Amore" , Shawn Walker , Danek Duvall , Joseph Kowalski , PSARC-ext@sun.com Message-id: <47D9A30F.3030102@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <20080309081139.GD16041@zruty.sfbay.sun.com> <47D41416.8070505@sun.com> <47D56A20.1090903@Sun.COM> <47D57890.5000002@Sun.COM> <47D5830B.2060005@sun.com> <20080312044015.GI986@Sun.COM> <47D771CF.20802@sun.com> <20080312183200.GZ986@Sun.COM> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (X11/20080201) Status: RO Content-Length: 386 Nicolas Williams wrote: > I agree, *-config shouldn't have to belong to /usr/bin. That they do is > an accident of history that we probably cannot really change now. Most of them will go away with time - most FOSS software has started to use pkgconfig instead. We probably could decide to support only pkgconfig with little harm, especially when there's a choice of both. Glynn