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From Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com Tue May 27 16:27:18 2008
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Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 16:19:44 -0700 (PDT)
From: Alan Coopersmith <Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com>
Subject: ksh93 Integration Update 1 Amendments 1 [PSARC/2008/344 FastTrack
 timeout 06/03/2008]
To: PSARC-ext@sun.com
Cc: Roland.Mainz@nrubsig.org
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I'm sponsoring this fast-track request on behalf of the
ksh93-integration project.
Please note that this is an *open* case.

The release binding is the same as with the previous ksh93-integration project:
a patch/micro release of Solaris delivering through OS/Net
Stability levels are as described below.


Template Version: @(#)sac_nextcase 1.66 04/17/08 SMI
This information is Copyright 2008 Sun Microsystems
1. Introduction
    1.1. Project/Component Working Name:
	 ksh93 Integration Update 1 Amendments 1
    1.2. Name of Document Author/Supplier:
	 Author:  Roland Mainz
    1.3  Date of This Document:
	27 May, 2008
4. Technical Description

This project is an amendment to the Korn Shell 93 Integration project
update 1 ARC case (PSARC/2008/094) specifying the following additional
interfaces:
1) Update of ksh93 from upstream release ast-ksh.2007-12-15 to
  ast-ksh-2008-05-22
1.1) Update of ksh93
1.2) New "typeset" variable storage qualifier for function
1.3) New floating-point datatype "hexfloat" ("typeset -X varname)
1.4) New reserved options for "typeset".
1.5) New ksh93 math functions "ceil":
1.5) New reserved builtin "enum"
2) Project-private location for shell function library



Bug/RFE Number(s):

6619428 RFE: Update ksh93 in Solaris to ast-ksh.2007-10-15 (or higher)
6601968 RFE: Add /usr/lib/shell/ksh/ as a place to store loadable
        shell functions



Interface		        Stability        Description                             
---------		        ---------        -----------  
/usr/lib/shell/                 Project private  <see below>
<new C99 math function "ceil">  Commited         C99 math functions



### Part 1: Update of ksh93 from upstream release ast-ksh.2007-12-15 to
ast-ksh-2008-05-22


## Part 1.1: Update of ksh93
The 1.1 portion of this project is the update of ksh93 from
ast-ksh.2007-12-15 to ast-ksh-2008-05-22 which marks the update from
ksh93 version 's+' to version 't-' (AST/ksh93 uses the (latin)
alphabet for its version number, e.g. version 'a', version 'b' etc. ;
the '+'/'-' means the stabilty status, e.g. '-' means its "alpha",
no suffix means its "stable" (e.g. ready for production usage) and
'+' means its a bugfixed stable version etc.).


## Part 1.2: New "typeset" variable storage qualifier for function
  static variables ("typeset -S varname")
The "typeset" builtin has a new option "-S" to declare a variable
as "static", similar to |static| variables in a ISO C/C++ code.


## Part 1.3: New floating-point datatype "hexfloat" ("typeset -X
  varname")
The "typeset" builtin has a new option "-X" to define a floating-point
variable which uses the same floating-point representation as
printf "%a" (hexadecimal floating point representation). The option
is intended to be used in cases where the values should be permanently
stored or passed to other applications without suffering the loss in
precision caused by a base2--->base10--->base2 conversion chain.
All shell facilities and C99/XPG6 conformant applications which accept
floating-point values accept the hexfloat format.


## Part 1.4: New reserved options for "typeset".
The typeset options "-T", "-h" and "-C" are reserved for future usage.


## Part 1.5: New ksh93 math functions "ceil":
Function name  | Prototype                            | see manual page
---------------+--------------------------------------+-----------------
          ceil |        float             ceil(float) |       ceil(3m)
(note: the datatypes "integer" and "float" refer to the "integer" and
"float" datatypes in ksh93 scripts, not those in the "C" language)


## Part 1.5: New reserved builtin "enum"
The builtin command "enum" is hereby reserved for future usage.


### Part 2: Project-private location for shell function library
/usr/lib/shell/ is reserved as project private location, mainly to
build a (platform/architecture-specific) library of dynamically
loadable shell functions in a similar form as java packages.

For example the opensolaris.org networking team might store HTTP
protocol handling functions under 
"/usr/lib/shell/sh/funclib/org/opensolaris/net/http/" (e.g.
/usr/lib/shell/sh/... for is for POSIX shells,
/usr/lib/shell/zsh/... for modules which use "zsh" syntax,
/usr/lib/shell/bash/ for modules which use "bash" syntax etc.)
and the shell would access modules in this directory via adding
this path to the "function path", e.g.
FPATH+=":/usr/lib/shell/ksh/funclib/org/opensolaris/net/http/" (note
that shell functions loaded via this way will be _bound_ to this
FPATH element (the same way as ksh93 binds builtin commands to
specific PATH elements) only be visible as long as FPATH contains
a matching path entry - removing the FPATH entry will disable the
functions (but not unload them), re-adding the same path will
make the functions accessible again (this allows that multiple
groups/organisations may use the same function/module names without
having namespace collisions)).
The interfaces and modules provided by this API will be
offered for ARC contracts and later (after some "soaking" period)
opened-up on case-by-case basis.

### Manpage diffs:

--- typeset.1.txt   Fri May 23 23:03:15 2008
+++ typeset.1.txt   Fri May 23 23:03:15 2008
@@ -45,7 +45,9 @@
   expansion occurs on value.
 
 OPTIONS
   -a[type]        Indexed array. This is the default. If [type] is specified,
                   each subscript is interpreted as a value of type type. The
                   option value may be omitted.
   -b              Each name may contain binary data. Its value is the mime
                   base64 encoding of the data. It can be used with -Z, to
                   specify fixed sized fields.
+  -C              Reserved for future usage.

@@ -92,6 +94,18 @@
                   If the -Z attribute is also specified, then zeros will be
                   used as the fill character. Otherwise, spaces are used. The
                   option value may be omitted.
+  -X[n]           Floating point number represented in hexadecimal notation. n
+                  specifies the number of significant figures when the value is
+                  expanded. The option value may be omitted. The default value
+                  is 10.
+  -h              Reserved for future usage.
+  -S              When used inside a
+                  function defined with the function reserved word, the
+                  specified variables will have function static scope.
+  -T              Reserved for future usage.
   -Z[n]           Zero fill. If n is given it represents the field width. The
                   option value may be omitted.


6. Resources and Schedule
    6.4. Steering Committee requested information
   	6.4.1. Consolidation C-team Name:
		ON
    6.5. ARC review type: FastTrack
    6.6. ARC Exposure: open


From gdamore@sun.com Tue May 27 20:58:08 2008
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Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 20:50:57 -0700
From: "Garrett D'Amore" <gdamore@sun.com>
Subject: Re: ksh93 Integration Update 1 Amendments 1 [PSARC/2008/344 FastTrack
 timeout 06/03/2008]
In-reply-to: <200805272319.m4RNJieD001649@almas.sfbay.sun.com>
Sender: Garrett.Damore@sun.com
To: Alan Coopersmith <Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com>
Cc: PSARC-ext@sun.com, Roland.Mainz@nrubsig.org
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Are you using (populating) anything in /usr/shell as part of this case?

If not, you might consider running that as a separate fast track.

    -- Garrett

Alan Coopersmith wrote:
> I'm sponsoring this fast-track request on behalf of the
> ksh93-integration project.
> Please note that this is an *open* case.
>
> The release binding is the same as with the previous ksh93-integration project:
> a patch/micro release of Solaris delivering through OS/Net
> Stability levels are as described below.
>
>
> Template Version: @(#)sac_nextcase 1.66 04/17/08 SMI
> This information is Copyright 2008 Sun Microsystems
> 1. Introduction
>     1.1. Project/Component Working Name:
> 	 ksh93 Integration Update 1 Amendments 1
>     1.2. Name of Document Author/Supplier:
> 	 Author:  Roland Mainz
>     1.3  Date of This Document:
> 	27 May, 2008
> 4. Technical Description
>
> This project is an amendment to the Korn Shell 93 Integration project
> update 1 ARC case (PSARC/2008/094) specifying the following additional
> interfaces:
> 1) Update of ksh93 from upstream release ast-ksh.2007-12-15 to
>   ast-ksh-2008-05-22
> 1.1) Update of ksh93
> 1.2) New "typeset" variable storage qualifier for function
> 1.3) New floating-point datatype "hexfloat" ("typeset -X varname)
> 1.4) New reserved options for "typeset".
> 1.5) New ksh93 math functions "ceil":
> 1.5) New reserved builtin "enum"
> 2) Project-private location for shell function library
>
>
>
> Bug/RFE Number(s):
>
> 6619428 RFE: Update ksh93 in Solaris to ast-ksh.2007-10-15 (or higher)
> 6601968 RFE: Add /usr/lib/shell/ksh/ as a place to store loadable
>         shell functions
>
>
>
> Interface		        Stability        Description                             
> ---------		        ---------        -----------  
> /usr/lib/shell/                 Project private  <see below>
> <new C99 math function "ceil">  Commited         C99 math functions
>
>
>
> ### Part 1: Update of ksh93 from upstream release ast-ksh.2007-12-15 to
> ast-ksh-2008-05-22
>
>
> ## Part 1.1: Update of ksh93
> The 1.1 portion of this project is the update of ksh93 from
> ast-ksh.2007-12-15 to ast-ksh-2008-05-22 which marks the update from
> ksh93 version 's+' to version 't-' (AST/ksh93 uses the (latin)
> alphabet for its version number, e.g. version 'a', version 'b' etc. ;
> the '+'/'-' means the stabilty status, e.g. '-' means its "alpha",
> no suffix means its "stable" (e.g. ready for production usage) and
> '+' means its a bugfixed stable version etc.).
>
>
> ## Part 1.2: New "typeset" variable storage qualifier for function
>   static variables ("typeset -S varname")
> The "typeset" builtin has a new option "-S" to declare a variable
> as "static", similar to |static| variables in a ISO C/C++ code.
>
>
> ## Part 1.3: New floating-point datatype "hexfloat" ("typeset -X
>   varname")
> The "typeset" builtin has a new option "-X" to define a floating-point
> variable which uses the same floating-point representation as
> printf "%a" (hexadecimal floating point representation). The option
> is intended to be used in cases where the values should be permanently
> stored or passed to other applications without suffering the loss in
> precision caused by a base2--->base10--->base2 conversion chain.
> All shell facilities and C99/XPG6 conformant applications which accept
> floating-point values accept the hexfloat format.
>
>
> ## Part 1.4: New reserved options for "typeset".
> The typeset options "-T", "-h" and "-C" are reserved for future usage.
>
>
> ## Part 1.5: New ksh93 math functions "ceil":
> Function name  | Prototype                            | see manual page
> ---------------+--------------------------------------+-----------------
>           ceil |        float             ceil(float) |       ceil(3m)
> (note: the datatypes "integer" and "float" refer to the "integer" and
> "float" datatypes in ksh93 scripts, not those in the "C" language)
>
>
> ## Part 1.5: New reserved builtin "enum"
> The builtin command "enum" is hereby reserved for future usage.
>
>
> ### Part 2: Project-private location for shell function library
> /usr/lib/shell/ is reserved as project private location, mainly to
> build a (platform/architecture-specific) library of dynamically
> loadable shell functions in a similar form as java packages.
>
> For example the opensolaris.org networking team might store HTTP
> protocol handling functions under 
> "/usr/lib/shell/sh/funclib/org/opensolaris/net/http/" (e.g.
> /usr/lib/shell/sh/... for is for POSIX shells,
> /usr/lib/shell/zsh/... for modules which use "zsh" syntax,
> /usr/lib/shell/bash/ for modules which use "bash" syntax etc.)
> and the shell would access modules in this directory via adding
> this path to the "function path", e.g.
> FPATH+=":/usr/lib/shell/ksh/funclib/org/opensolaris/net/http/" (note
> that shell functions loaded via this way will be _bound_ to this
> FPATH element (the same way as ksh93 binds builtin commands to
> specific PATH elements) only be visible as long as FPATH contains
> a matching path entry - removing the FPATH entry will disable the
> functions (but not unload them), re-adding the same path will
> make the functions accessible again (this allows that multiple
> groups/organisations may use the same function/module names without
> having namespace collisions)).
> The interfaces and modules provided by this API will be
> offered for ARC contracts and later (after some "soaking" period)
> opened-up on case-by-case basis.
>
> ### Manpage diffs:
>
> --- typeset.1.txt   Fri May 23 23:03:15 2008
> +++ typeset.1.txt   Fri May 23 23:03:15 2008
> @@ -45,7 +45,9 @@
>    expansion occurs on value.
>  
>  OPTIONS
>    -a[type]        Indexed array. This is the default. If [type] is specified,
>                    each subscript is interpreted as a value of type type. The
>                    option value may be omitted.
>    -b              Each name may contain binary data. Its value is the mime
>                    base64 encoding of the data. It can be used with -Z, to
>                    specify fixed sized fields.
> +  -C              Reserved for future usage.
>
> @@ -92,6 +94,18 @@
>                    If the -Z attribute is also specified, then zeros will be
>                    used as the fill character. Otherwise, spaces are used. The
>                    option value may be omitted.
> +  -X[n]           Floating point number represented in hexadecimal notation. n
> +                  specifies the number of significant figures when the value is
> +                  expanded. The option value may be omitted. The default value
> +                  is 10.
> +  -h              Reserved for future usage.
> +  -S              When used inside a
> +                  function defined with the function reserved word, the
> +                  specified variables will have function static scope.
> +  -T              Reserved for future usage.
>    -Z[n]           Zero fill. If n is given it represents the field width. The
>                    option value may be omitted.
>
>
> 6. Resources and Schedule
>     6.4. Steering Committee requested information
>    	6.4.1. Consolidation C-team Name:
> 		ON
>     6.5. ARC review type: FastTrack
>     6.6. ARC Exposure: open
>
>   


From jek3@sun.com Tue May 27 21:08:08 2008
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Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 18:10:13 -1000
From: Joseph Kowalski <jek3@sun.com>
Subject: Re: ksh93 Integration Update 1 Amendments 1 [PSARC/2008/344 FastTrack
 timeout 06/03/2008]
In-reply-to: <483CD6A1.7070706@sun.com>
To: "Garrett D'Amore" <gdamore@sun.com>
Cc: Alan Coopersmith <Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com>, PSARC-ext@sun.com,
        Roland.Mainz@nrubsig.org
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Garrett D'Amore wrote:
> Are you using (populating) anything in /usr/shell as part of this case?
I think you mean /usr/lib/shell.

We wouldn't want to tun afoul of the LSB/FSH, now would we....

- jek3


From gdamore@sun.com Tue May 27 21:21:10 2008
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Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 21:14:00 -0700
From: "Garrett D'Amore" <gdamore@sun.com>
Subject: Re: ksh93 Integration Update 1 Amendments 1 [PSARC/2008/344 FastTrack
 timeout 06/03/2008]
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Right.  Sorry 'bout that.

    --Garrett

Joseph Kowalski wrote:
> Garrett D'Amore wrote:
>> Are you using (populating) anything in /usr/shell as part of this case?
> I think you mean /usr/lib/shell.
>
> We wouldn't want to tun afoul of the LSB/FSH, now would we....
>
> - jek3
>


From Darren.Moffat@sun.com Wed May 28 02:34:28 2008
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Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 10:34:17 +0100
From: Darren J Moffat <Darren.Moffat@sun.com>
Subject: Re: ksh93 Integration Update 1 Amendments 1 [PSARC/2008/344 FastTrack
 timeout 06/03/2008]
In-reply-to: <200805272319.m4RNJieD001649@almas.sfbay.sun.com>
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Alan Coopersmith wrote:
> ### Part 2: Project-private location for shell function library
> /usr/lib/shell/ is reserved as project private location, mainly to
> build a (platform/architecture-specific) library of dynamically
> loadable shell functions in a similar form as java packages.

Why /usr/lib/shell rather than /usr/share/lib/shell ?

The java packages are in /usr/share/lib/ and /usr/share/lib/java/

Is it expected that the *default* case is that /usr/lib/shell/ content 
is *not* ISA independent ?  Surely it is shell script files ?


-- 
Darren J Moffat

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Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 12:00:46 +0200
From: Roland Mainz <roland.mainz@nrubsig.org>
Subject: Re: ksh93 Integration Update 1 Amendments 1 [PSARC/2008/344
 FastTracktimeout 06/03/2008]
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Garrett D'Amore wrote:
> Alan Coopersmith wrote:
[snip]
> > ### Part 2: Project-private location for shell function library
> > /usr/lib/shell/ is reserved as project private location, mainly to
> > build a (platform/architecture-specific) library of dynamically
> > loadable shell functions in a similar form as java packages.
> >
> > For example the opensolaris.org networking team might store HTTP
> > protocol handling functions under
> > "/usr/lib/shell/sh/funclib/org/opensolaris/net/http/" (e.g.
> > /usr/lib/shell/sh/... for is for POSIX shells,
> > /usr/lib/shell/zsh/... for modules which use "zsh" syntax,
> > /usr/lib/shell/bash/ for modules which use "bash" syntax etc.)
> > and the shell would access modules in this directory via adding
> > this path to the "function path", e.g.
> > FPATH+=":/usr/lib/shell/ksh/funclib/org/opensolaris/net/http/" (note
> > that shell functions loaded via this way will be _bound_ to this
> > FPATH element (the same way as ksh93 binds builtin commands to
> > specific PATH elements) only be visible as long as FPATH contains
> > a matching path entry - removing the FPATH entry will disable the
> > functions (but not unload them), re-adding the same path will
> > make the functions accessible again (this allows that multiple
> > groups/organisations may use the same function/module names without
> > having namespace collisions)).
> > The interfaces and modules provided by this API will be
> > offered for ARC contracts and later (after some "soaking" period)
> > opened-up on case-by-case basis.
[snip]
>
> Are you using (populating) anything in /usr/shell as part of this case?

AFAIK you mean /usr/lib/shell/ and the answer is "maybe", depending on
time. The first real consumer may be the "man-rewrite" project which
stuffs the shared shell code into
usr/lib/shell/ksh/org/opensolaris/man/misc/ or something like that (e.g.
common shell functions for DocBook/SGML+SolBook/SGML+DOcBook/XML manpage
handling and the catman crawler dispatcher code)

> If not, you might consider running that as a separate fast track.

Why ? The directory is explcitly marked as "project private" for now.
AFAIK we don't have to notify ARC about further activities there until
we start making ARC contracts or open the interfaces there...

----

Bye,
Roland

-- 
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Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 12:02:15 +0200
From: Roland Mainz <roland.mainz@nrubsig.org>
Subject: Re: ksh93 Integration Update 1 Amendments 1 [PSARC/2008/344
 FastTracktimeout 06/03/2008]
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Joseph Kowalski wrote:
> Garrett D'Amore wrote:
> > Are you using (populating) anything in /usr/shell as part of this case?
>
> I think you mean /usr/lib/shell.

/usr/lib/shell/ is the correct location since we expect that
ISA-specific modules show-up there...

----

Bye,
Roland

-- 
  __ .  . __
 (o.\ \/ /.o) roland.mainz@nrubsig.org
  \__\/\/__/  MPEG specialist, C&&JAVA&&Sun&&Unix programmer
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Subject: Re: ksh93 Integration Update 1 Amendments 1 [PSARC/2008/344
 FastTracktimeout 06/03/2008]
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Darren J Moffat wrote:
> Alan Coopersmith wrote:
> > ### Part 2: Project-private location for shell function library
> > /usr/lib/shell/ is reserved as project private location, mainly to
> > build a (platform/architecture-specific) library of dynamically
> > loadable shell functions in a similar form as java packages.
> 
> Why /usr/lib/shell rather than /usr/share/lib/shell ?

Because the content of the shell scripts may be platform-specific, e.g.
behave differently on different platforms (for example we may hardcode
ISA-specific PATHs). /usr/share/lib/shell/ would only be correct if the
contents of this directory can be shared between different
ISAs/architectures and that won't be the case for the content delivered
to /usr/lib/shell/

> The java packages are in /usr/share/lib/ and /usr/share/lib/java/

I doubt the JAVA packages there have any ISA-specific code inside.

> Is it expected that the *default* case is that /usr/lib/shell/ content
> is *not* ISA independent ?

It's not intended to be the default case but we don't want to make any
restrictions for consumers (and we don't want to squish-out more speed
by compiling the shell code (see below) and then loose the performance
win again because we have zillions of $ if [[ "$ISA" == i386 ]] ; ...
elif [[ "$ISA" == amd64 ]] ; ... elif [[ "$ISA" == sparc ]] ; ... elif
[[ "$ISA" == sparcv7 ]] ; ... elif [[ "$ISA" == sparcv8 ]] ; ... elif [[
"$ISA" == sparcv8a ]] ; ... elif [[ "$ISA" == sparcv8b ]] ; ... elif [[
"$ISA" == sparc9 ]] ; ... elif [[ "$ISA" == sparcv9a ]] ; ... elif [[
"$ISA" == sparcv9b ]] ; ... elif [[ "$ISA" == ppc ]] ; ... elif [[
"$ISA" == ppc64 ]] ; ... elif [[ "$ISA" == systemz ]]  ; ... elif [[
"$ISA" == systemz64 ]] ... # in the code).

> Surely it is shell script files ?

For ksh93-based modules (and for zsh, too) we only provide _compiled_
shell script modules (compiled via "shcomp"; the resulting binary shell
scripts are portable across different CPU architectures and
endian-independent but the content may still behave differently on
different platforms since the underlying script code may behave that
way).

----

Bye,
Roland

-- 
  __ .  . __
 (o.\ \/ /.o) roland.mainz@nrubsig.org
  \__\/\/__/  MPEG specialist, C&&JAVA&&Sun&&Unix programmer
  /O /==\ O\  TEL +49 641 7950090
 (;O/ \/ \O;)

From Alan.Coopersmith@Sun.COM Wed May 28 06:48:49 2008
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Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 06:48:46 -0700
From: Alan Coopersmith <Alan.Coopersmith@Sun.COM>
Subject: Re: ksh93 Integration Update 1 Amendments 1 [PSARC/2008/344 FastTrack
 timeout 06/03/2008]
In-reply-to: <483CD6A1.7070706@sun.com>
Sender: Alan.Coopersmith@Sun.COM
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Cc: PSARC-ext@Sun.COM, Roland.Mainz@nrubsig.org
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Garrett D'Amore wrote:
> Are you using (populating) anything in /usr/shell as part of this case?
> 
> If not, you might consider running that as a separate fast track.

Without that portion, this case is pretty much an automatic-approval case
to upgrade to the latest upstream, but since the project team wanted to do
both at once, I saw no harm in having a combined fast track.   Is there a
reason to split now?   Is the ARC going to want to derail or deny that
portion, but not the rest?

-- 
	-Alan Coopersmith-           alan.coopersmith@sun.com
	 Sun Microsystems, Inc. - X Window System Engineering


From Darren.Moffat@sun.com Wed May 28 07:10:16 2008
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Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 15:09:56 +0100
From: Darren J Moffat <Darren.Moffat@sun.com>
Subject: Re: ksh93 Integration Update 1 Amendments 1 [PSARC/2008/344 FastTrack
 timeout 06/03/2008]
In-reply-to: <483D62BE.10102@sun.com>
Sender: Darren.Moffat@sun.com
To: Alan Coopersmith <Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com>
Cc: "Garrett D'Amore" <gdamore@sun.com>, PSARC-ext@sun.com,
        Roland.Mainz@nrubsig.org
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Alan Coopersmith wrote:
> Garrett D'Amore wrote:
>> Are you using (populating) anything in /usr/shell as part of this case?
>>
>> If not, you might consider running that as a separate fast track.
> 
> Without that portion, this case is pretty much an automatic-approval case
> to upgrade to the latest upstream, but since the project team wanted to do
> both at once, I saw no harm in having a combined fast track.   Is there a
> reason to split now?   Is the ARC going to want to derail or deny that
> portion, but not the rest?

I'm happy with the answer for /usr/lib/shell/ rather than 
/usr/share/lib/shell/.

-- 
Darren J Moffat

From gdamore@sun.com Wed May 28 07:51:25 2008
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Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 07:44:13 -0700
From: "Garrett D'Amore" <gdamore@sun.com>
Subject: Re: ksh93 Integration Update 1 Amendments 1 [PSARC/2008/344
 FastTracktimeout 06/03/2008]
In-reply-to: <483D2D4E.9F6CA2DA@nrubsig.org>
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Roland Mainz wrote:
>
>
> AFAIK you mean /usr/lib/shell/ and the answer is "maybe", depending on
> time. The first real consumer may be the "man-rewrite" project which
> stuffs the shared shell code into
> usr/lib/shell/ksh/org/opensolaris/man/misc/ or something like that (e.g.
> common shell functions for DocBook/SGML+SolBook/SGML+DOcBook/XML manpage
> handling and the catman crawler dispatcher code)
>   

That would not be this case, though, right?   So you aren't populating 
anything there as part of what you need for the other portions of this 
case, right?

>   
>> If not, you might consider running that as a separate fast track.
>>     
>
> Why ? The directory is explcitly marked as "project private" for now.
> AFAIK we don't have to notify ARC about further activities there until
> we start making ARC contracts or open the interfaces there...
>   

Because it isn't intrinsic to this case, and proposes things that have 
impact outside of ksh93 (you've suggested bash, zsh, etc.)  I'd rather 
see that as a separate case.  (It doesn't necessarily mean that such a 
case will be contentious.)

Cases, IMO, should be only proposing one project, or if more than one, 
projects that are intrinsically linked.  That's not the case here.   No 
pun intended.

    -- Garrett


From gdamore@sun.com Wed May 28 08:00:32 2008
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Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 07:53:11 -0700
From: "Garrett D'Amore" <gdamore@sun.com>
Subject: Re: ksh93 Integration Update 1 Amendments 1 [PSARC/2008/344 FastTrack
 timeout 06/03/2008]
In-reply-to: <483D62BE.10102@sun.com>
Sender: Garrett.Damore@sun.com
To: Alan Coopersmith <Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com>
Cc: PSARC-ext@sun.com, Roland.Mainz@nrubsig.org
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Alan Coopersmith wrote:
> Garrett D'Amore wrote:
>   
>> Are you using (populating) anything in /usr/shell as part of this case?
>>
>> If not, you might consider running that as a separate fast track.
>>     
>
> Without that portion, this case is pretty much an automatic-approval case
> to upgrade to the latest upstream, but since the project team wanted to do
> both at once, I saw no harm in having a combined fast track.   Is there a
> reason to split now?   Is the ARC going to want to derail or deny that
> portion, but not the rest?
>
>   

I certainly hadn't planned to derail or anything like that.  And I agree 
that the case is nearly automatic-approval.  (Although as there are some 
changes including new syntax and new reserved words in the shell 
language, I think it still fails the automatic approval test, but only 
just.)

I would still prefer that the cases were separated -- in fact, as there 
are no consumers for the /usr/lib/shell (nothing being put there as part 
of *this* case), I'd actually recommend holding off on that until there 
is at least one consumer.  However, I don't feel strongly enough on it 
to take any assertive action on my own.

The issue of /usr/share vs. /usr/lib doesn't seem fully resolved to me 
yet, either.  (I see reasonable arguments for either case.)

Put another way, I think without /usr/lib/shell, the case can probably 
be approved at today's meeting.  With /usr/lib/shell, at a minimum we 
need to allow for more discussion.

    -- Garrett

From gdamore@sun.com Wed May 28 08:16:08 2008
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Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 08:08:53 -0700
From: "Garrett D'Amore" <gdamore@sun.com>
Subject: Re: ksh93 Integration Update 1 Amendments 1 [PSARC/2008/344 FastTrack
 timeout 06/03/2008]
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Sorry, one more set of questions:

>
> This project is an amendment to the Korn Shell 93 Integration project
> update 1 ARC case (PSARC/2008/094) specifying the following additional
> interfaces:
> 1) Update of ksh93 from upstream release ast-ksh.2007-12-15 to
>   ast-ksh-2008-05-22
> 1.1) Update of ksh93
> 1.2) New "typeset" variable storage qualifier for function
> 1.3) New floating-point datatype "hexfloat" ("typeset -X varname)
> 1.4) New reserved options for "typeset".
> 1.5) New ksh93 math functions "ceil":
> 1.5) New reserved builtin "enum"
>
>   

As you now have created a new keyword and function name, ("ceil" and 
"enum"), what will happen to scripts that may already have used these words?

Have the upstream providers given thought to dealing with changes like 
this and their impact on already-deployed scripts?  (Maybe there aren't 
any that we care about yet, since our ksh93 is still so new.)

I'm concerned, going forward, as ksh93 syntax becomes more prevalent, 
that bringing in changes like the above may have unintended consequences 
in scripts or even ON delivered components, which we cannot easily find 
or test.

It would be nice (and maybe this is advice to send upstream) if there 
was a way for script authors to be sure that their namespace was not 
going to change underneath them.   As one possible solution (and this is 
just for illustrative), imagine a flag for ksh, -N2008.05.28, which 
script authors could put in their #!/usr/bin/ksh line which ksh would 
take to mean that only the language features available in ksh version 
2008.05.28 should be exported.

Another solution, might be to reserve some portion of the namespace 
(e.g. with a prefix identifier such as an underscore) for either new 
names in the language, or to reserve it for script author use (e.g. 
names with a certain prefix are guaranteed to be "safe".)

    -- Garrett


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Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 17:57:21 +0200
From: "I. Szczesniak" <iszczesniak@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ksh93-integration-discuss] ksh93 Integration Update 1 Amendments
 1 [PSARC/2008/344 FastTrack timeout 06/03/2008]
In-reply-to: <483D7585.5070908@sun.com>
To: Korn Shell 93 integration/migration project discussion
 <ksh93-integration-discuss@opensolaris.org>
Cc: Alan Coopersmith <Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com>, PSARC-ext@sun.com,
        Roland.Mainz@nrubsig.org
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On 5/28/08, Garrett D'Amore <gdamore@sun.com> wrote:
> Sorry, one more set of questions:
>
>
>  >
>  > This project is an amendment to the Korn Shell 93 Integration project
>  > update 1 ARC case (PSARC/2008/094) specifying the following additional
>  > interfaces:
>  > 1) Update of ksh93 from upstream release ast-ksh.2007-12-15 to
>  >   ast-ksh-2008-05-22
>  > 1.1) Update of ksh93
>  > 1.2) New "typeset" variable storage qualifier for function
>  > 1.3) New floating-point datatype "hexfloat" ("typeset -X varname)
>  > 1.4) New reserved options for "typeset".
>  > 1.5) New ksh93 math functions "ceil":
>  > 1.5) New reserved builtin "enum"
>  >
>  >
>
>
> As you now have created a new keyword and function name, ("ceil" and
>  "enum"), what will happen to scripts that may already have used these words?
>
>  Have the upstream providers given thought to dealing with changes like
>  this and their impact on already-deployed scripts?  (Maybe there aren't
>  any that we care about yet, since our ksh93 is still so new.)
>
>  I'm concerned, going forward, as ksh93 syntax becomes more prevalent,
>  that bringing in changes like the above may have unintended consequences
>  in scripts or even ON delivered components, which we cannot easily find
>  or test.
>
>  It would be nice (and maybe this is advice to send upstream) if there
>  was a way for script authors to be sure that their namespace was not
>  going to change underneath them.   As one possible solution (and this is
>  just for illustrative), imagine a flag for ksh, -N2008.05.28, which
>  script authors could put in their #!/usr/bin/ksh line which ksh would
>  take to mean that only the language features available in ksh version
>  2008.05.28 should be exported.
>
>  Another solution, might be to reserve some portion of the namespace
>  (e.g. with a prefix identifier such as an underscore)

Such as __sun_ksh_93__.2008.05.28__namespace__.____LONG DESCRIPTION____.enum?
I am sorry, this doesn't make sense. No one asked the bash port
maintainers to do this when bash added features in 3.2 and Sun updated
to 3.2 last year. Or Python. Or JAVA.

>  for either new
>  names in the language, or to reserve it for script author use (e.g.
>  names with a certain prefix are guaranteed to be "safe".)

It was always good practice to avoid C language keywords in shell
scripts. Quoting the Opensolaris programming style guide:
Do not use function names which are reserved keywords (or function
names) in C/C++/JAVA or the POSIX shell standard (to avoid confusion
and/or future changes/updates to the shell language).

Irek

From John.Plocher@sun.com Wed May 28 09:05:11 2008
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Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 09:05:05 -0700
From: John Plocher <John.Plocher@sun.com>
Subject: Re: [ksh93-integration-discuss] ksh93 Integration Update 1 Amendments
 1 [PSARC/2008/344 FastTrack timeout 06/03/2008]
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To: "I. Szczesniak" <iszczesniak@gmail.com>
Cc: Korn Shell 93 integration/migration project discussion
 <ksh93-integration-discuss@opensolaris.org>,
        PSARC-ext@sun.com, Alan Coopersmith <Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com>,
        Roland.Mainz@nrubsig.org
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I. Szczesniak wrote:
> It was always good practice to avoid C language keywords in shell
> scripts. Quoting the Opensolaris programming style guide:
> Do not use function names which are reserved keywords (or function
> names) in C/C++/JAVA or the POSIX shell standard (to avoid confusion
> and/or future changes/updates to the shell language).


And that may be good enough to serve as the last word on this topic :-)

   -John

From gdamore@sun.com Wed May 28 09:14:31 2008
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Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 09:07:07 -0700
From: "Garrett D'Amore" <gdamore@sun.com>
Subject: Re: [ksh93-integration-discuss] ksh93 Integration Update 1 Amendments
 1 [PSARC/2008/344 FastTrack timeout 06/03/2008]
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Cc: Korn Shell 93 integration/migration project discussion
 <ksh93-integration-discuss@opensolaris.org>,
        Alan Coopersmith <Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com>, PSARC-ext@sun.com,
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I. Szczesniak wrote:
> On 5/28/08, Garrett D'Amore <gdamore@sun.com> wrote:
>   
>> Sorry, one more set of questions:
>>
>>
>>  >
>>  > This project is an amendment to the Korn Shell 93 Integration project
>>  > update 1 ARC case (PSARC/2008/094) specifying the following additional
>>  > interfaces:
>>  > 1) Update of ksh93 from upstream release ast-ksh.2007-12-15 to
>>  >   ast-ksh-2008-05-22
>>  > 1.1) Update of ksh93
>>  > 1.2) New "typeset" variable storage qualifier for function
>>  > 1.3) New floating-point datatype "hexfloat" ("typeset -X varname)
>>  > 1.4) New reserved options for "typeset".
>>  > 1.5) New ksh93 math functions "ceil":
>>  > 1.5) New reserved builtin "enum"
>>  >
>>  >
>>
>>
>> As you now have created a new keyword and function name, ("ceil" and
>>  "enum"), what will happen to scripts that may already have used these words?
>>
>>  Have the upstream providers given thought to dealing with changes like
>>  this and their impact on already-deployed scripts?  (Maybe there aren't
>>  any that we care about yet, since our ksh93 is still so new.)
>>
>>  I'm concerned, going forward, as ksh93 syntax becomes more prevalent,
>>  that bringing in changes like the above may have unintended consequences
>>  in scripts or even ON delivered components, which we cannot easily find
>>  or test.
>>
>>  It would be nice (and maybe this is advice to send upstream) if there
>>  was a way for script authors to be sure that their namespace was not
>>  going to change underneath them.   As one possible solution (and this is
>>  just for illustrative), imagine a flag for ksh, -N2008.05.28, which
>>  script authors could put in their #!/usr/bin/ksh line which ksh would
>>  take to mean that only the language features available in ksh version
>>  2008.05.28 should be exported.
>>
>>  Another solution, might be to reserve some portion of the namespace
>>  (e.g. with a prefix identifier such as an underscore)
>>     
>
> Such as __sun_ksh_93__.2008.05.28__namespace__.____LONG DESCRIPTION____.enum?
>   

That's kind of ridiculous.  But, I suppose script developers could 
contrive such a name.  It wouldn't be hard for the ksh93 maintainers to 
offer a shorter prefix (such as a single character) which was guaranteed 
never to be unique, though.

> I am sorry, this doesn't make sense. No one asked the bash port
> maintainers to do this when bash added features in 3.2 and Sun updated
> to 3.2 last year. Or Python. Or JAVA.
>   

That's true, in part.

For Java and Perl at least, we have had to offer backwards compatibility 
versions for a while.   There was a multi-year transition effort 
surrounding the significant Java upgrade from 1.4 to 1.6.  (Note that 
minor updates, which don't add keywords, don't have the same concerns.)

Nobody has seriously proposed that bash be used as a programming 
language -- or at least -- nobody at Sun has proposed that it should be 
used as a "preferred" programming language.  And I believe bash is given 
an External stability level, to boot -- so we (Sun) make no promises 
about its stability one way or the other.

ksh93 on the other hand has, IIUC, and increased level of 
stability/commitment, and as we seem to be encouraging developers to 
shift to it from older /bin/sh or ksh88 scripting, it seems like we 
should do more to prevent breakage here when we can.

I'm not familiar with the details surrounding Python -- the Python man 
page makes no claim about stability (which IMO is a bug).

>   
>>  for either new
>>  names in the language, or to reserve it for script author use (e.g.
>>  names with a certain prefix are guaranteed to be "safe".)
>>     
>
> It was always good practice to avoid C language keywords in shell
> scripts. Quoting the Opensolaris programming style guide:
> Do not use function names which are reserved keywords (or function
> names) in C/C++/JAVA or the POSIX shell standard (to avoid confusion
> and/or future changes/updates to the shell language).
>   

While the advice seems sound, that document carries no weight outside of 
code integrating into ON though.  In particular, we are not offering 
that advice (or at least haven't done so anywhere I'm familiar with) to 
end users.

It also seems like we should publish the full list of such keywords in 
the same place that we offer this advice, since shell scripters may not 
know the various reserved words in languages they do not know.

    -- Garrett


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Subject: Re: [ksh93-integration-discuss] ksh93 Integration Update 1 Amendments
 1 [PSARC/2008/344 FastTrack timeout 06/03/2008]
In-reply-to: <483D7585.5070908@sun.com>
To: Korn Shell 93 integration/migration project discussion
 <ksh93-integration-discuss@opensolaris.org>
Cc: Alan Coopersmith <Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com>, PSARC-ext@sun.com,
        Roland.Mainz@nrubsig.org
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Garrett D'Amore writes:
> Have the upstream providers given thought to dealing with changes like 
> this and their impact on already-deployed scripts?  (Maybe there aren't 
> any that we care about yet, since our ksh93 is still so new.)

We've already had such problems.  See CR 6667990 for one such
accident; you can't call your local function "start" and upgrade
safely from Sun's old ksh88 to ksh93.

> I'm concerned, going forward, as ksh93 syntax becomes more prevalent, 
> that bringing in changes like the above may have unintended consequences 
> in scripts or even ON delivered components, which we cannot easily find 
> or test.

This probably isn't a good place to design a solution, but I share the
sense of unease.  It puts script writers on shaky ground if they can't
either specify a known environment or predict what's "safe."

-- 
James Carlson, Solaris Networking              <james.d.carlson@sun.com>
Sun Microsystems / 35 Network Drive        71.232W   Vox +1 781 442 2084
MS UBUR02-212 / Burlington MA 01803-2757   42.496N   Fax +1 781 442 1677

From Darren.Moffat@Sun.COM Wed May 28 09:31:25 2008
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Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 17:31:18 +0100
From: Darren J Moffat <Darren.Moffat@Sun.COM>
Subject: Re: [ksh93-integration-discuss] ksh93 Integration Update 1 Amendments
 1 [PSARC/2008/344 FastTrack timeout 06/03/2008]
In-reply-to: <18493.33194.70846.591126@gargle.gargle.HOWL>
Sender: Darren.Moffat@Sun.COM
To: James Carlson <James.D.Carlson@Sun.COM>
Cc: Korn Shell 93 integration/migration project discussion
 <ksh93-integration-discuss@opensolaris.org>,
        PSARC-ext@Sun.COM, Alan Coopersmith <Alan.Coopersmith@Sun.COM>,
        Roland.Mainz@nrubsig.org
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James Carlson wrote:
> Garrett D'Amore writes:
>> Have the upstream providers given thought to dealing with changes like 
>> this and their impact on already-deployed scripts?  (Maybe there aren't 
>> any that we care about yet, since our ksh93 is still so new.)
> 
> We've already had such problems.  See CR 6667990 for one such
> accident; you can't call your local function "start" and upgrade
> safely from Sun's old ksh88 to ksh93.
> 
>> I'm concerned, going forward, as ksh93 syntax becomes more prevalent, 
>> that bringing in changes like the above may have unintended consequences 
>> in scripts or even ON delivered components, which we cannot easily find 
>> or test.
> 
> This probably isn't a good place to design a solution, but I share the
> sense of unease.  It puts script writers on shaky ground if they can't
> either specify a known environment or predict what's "safe."

While I agree with you both I don't think this ARC review is the place 
to design the ksh93 language evolution.  It is what it is, we can either 
choose to take it as it is or we can step back and do ksh93 what we did 
to ksh88 (abandon it basically).  Or we can ask the upstream (who hang 
out here I believe) to take this on board and consider it.

While it is ksh93 I don't think any of this really matters that much 
because you have to explicitly ask for ksh93.  On the other hand if this 
same implementation was exporting this same functionality by default 
when it was used as the implementation of /bin/sh I would feel very 
differently.  This still isn't the case to make ksh93 /usr/bin/ksh which 
is where I think this type of issue matters most.

-- 
Darren J Moffat

From gdamore@sun.com Wed May 28 09:40:31 2008
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Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 09:33:06 -0700
From: "Garrett D'Amore" <gdamore@sun.com>
Subject: Re: [ksh93-integration-discuss] ksh93 Integration Update 1 Amendments
 1 [PSARC/2008/344 FastTrack timeout 06/03/2008]
In-reply-to: <483D88D6.7010007@Sun.COM>
Sender: Garrett.Damore@sun.com
To: Darren J Moffat <Darren.Moffat@sun.com>
Cc: James Carlson <James.D.Carlson@sun.com>,
        Korn Shell 93 integration/migration project discussion
 <ksh93-integration-discuss@opensolaris.org>,
        PSARC-ext@sun.com, Alan Coopersmith <Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com>,
        Roland.Mainz@nrubsig.org
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Darren J Moffat wrote:
> James Carlson wrote:
>> Garrett D'Amore writes:
>>> Have the upstream providers given thought to dealing with changes 
>>> like this and their impact on already-deployed scripts?  (Maybe 
>>> there aren't any that we care about yet, since our ksh93 is still so 
>>> new.)
>>
>> We've already had such problems.  See CR 6667990 for one such
>> accident; you can't call your local function "start" and upgrade
>> safely from Sun's old ksh88 to ksh93.
>>
>>> I'm concerned, going forward, as ksh93 syntax becomes more 
>>> prevalent, that bringing in changes like the above may have 
>>> unintended consequences in scripts or even ON delivered components, 
>>> which we cannot easily find or test.
>>
>> This probably isn't a good place to design a solution, but I share the
>> sense of unease.  It puts script writers on shaky ground if they can't
>> either specify a known environment or predict what's "safe."
>
> While I agree with you both I don't think this ARC review is the place 
> to design the ksh93 language evolution.  It is what it is, we can 
> either choose to take it as it is or we can step back and do ksh93 
> what we did to ksh88 (abandon it basically).  Or we can ask the 
> upstream (who hang out here I believe) to take this on board and 
> consider it.

All I'm asking for is that consideration.  I agree that we don't need to 
solve it here, because at this point we don't have any lasting 
commitment that we've delivered to customers yet around ksh93.

I'd be quite happy with a statement from the project team (or the 
upstream sources!) that they will take this into consideration before 
the next round of language enhancements.

>
> While it is ksh93 I don't think any of this really matters that much 
> because you have to explicitly ask for ksh93.  On the other hand if 
> this same implementation was exporting this same functionality by 
> default when it was used as the implementation of /bin/sh I would feel 
> very differently.  This still isn't the case to make ksh93 
> /usr/bin/ksh which is where I think this type of issue matters most.

I thought that in OpenSolaris 2008.05, ksh93 is the default shell.  I 
still haven't installed it myself, since I have dependencies on newer 
kernel bits than are in OpenSolaris 2008.05.

Of course, if we're not encouraging folks to use ksh93 instead of 
/bin/sh or /bin/ksh, then I agree, none of this matters, and we can 
dispense with it in the same terms that we dispensed with bash.  
(Although I'd then request we reconsider the commitment level given to 
ksh93 -- perhaps in such a case External might be better.)

    -- Garrett


From glenn.skinner@sun.com Wed May 28 09:42:12 2008
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Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 09:34:40 -0700 (PDT)
From: Glenn Skinner <glenn.skinner@sun.com>
Subject: Re: 2008/344 [ksh93 Integration Update 1 Amendments 1]
To: PSARC-ext@sun.com, Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com
Cc: Roland.Mainz@nrubsig.org
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    Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 16:19:44 -0700 (PDT)
    From: Alan Coopersmith <Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com>
    Subject: ksh93 Integration Update 1 Amendments 1 [PSARC/2008/344
	    FastTrack timeout 06/03/2008]

    ...
    ## Part 1.1: Update of ksh93
    The 1.1 portion of this project is the update of ksh93 from
    ast-ksh.2007-12-15 to ast-ksh-2008-05-22 which marks the update
    from ksh93 version 's+' to version 't-' (AST/ksh93 uses the
    (latin) alphabet for its version number, e.g.  version 'a',
    version 'b' etc.  ; the '+'/'-' means the stabilty status, e.g.
    '-' means its "alpha", no suffix means its "stable" (e.g.  ready
    for production usage) and '+' means its a bugfixed stable version
    etc.).

Are we to infer from this nomenclature description that ksh's
stability level is decreasing as part of this case?

		-- Glenn


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Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 12:39:17 -0400
From: James Carlson <james.d.carlson@sun.com>
Subject: Re: [ksh93-integration-discuss] ksh93 Integration Update 1 Amendments
	1 [PSARC/2008/344 FastTrack timeout 06/03/2008]
In-reply-to: <483D88D6.7010007@Sun.COM>
To: Darren J Moffat <Darren.Moffat@sun.com>
Cc: Korn Shell 93 integration/migration project discussion
 <ksh93-integration-discuss@opensolaris.org>,
        PSARC-ext@sun.com, Alan Coopersmith <Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com>,
        Roland.Mainz@nrubsig.org
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Darren J Moffat writes:
> While it is ksh93 I don't think any of this really matters that much 
> because you have to explicitly ask for ksh93.  On the other hand if this 
> same implementation was exporting this same functionality by default 
> when it was used as the implementation of /bin/sh I would feel very 
> differently.  This still isn't the case to make ksh93 /usr/bin/ksh which 
> is where I think this type of issue matters most.

True enough, though, because of Indiana, we're already hacking our
system scripts to comply with ksh93's differing requirements.

Thus, you can stand on principle and declare that without such a case,
no such "bugs" will ever be fixed, or you can dive in and do the work,
even if it has no ARC blessing.

It seems that many are doing the latter, which makes it de-facto
(rather than de-jure) architecture.

-- 
James Carlson, Solaris Networking              <james.d.carlson@sun.com>
Sun Microsystems / 35 Network Drive        71.232W   Vox +1 781 442 2084
MS UBUR02-212 / Burlington MA 01803-2757   42.496N   Fax +1 781 442 1677

From John.Plocher@sun.com Wed May 28 09:57:44 2008
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Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 09:57:31 -0700
From: John Plocher <John.Plocher@sun.com>
Subject: Re: 2008/344 [ksh93 Integration Update 1 Amendments 1]
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Glenn Skinner wrote:
>     (latin) alphabet for its version number, e.g.  version 'a',
>     version 'b' etc.  ; the '+'/'-' means the stabilty status, e.g.
>     '-' means its "alpha", no suffix means its "stable" (e.g.  ready
>     for production usage) and '+' means its a bugfixed stable version
>     etc.).
> 
> Are we to infer from this nomenclature description that ksh's
> stability level is decreasing as part of this case?

I think there may be a definition overload here:

   stability(ARC)     => interface evolution over time
      -vs-
   stability(AST/KSH) => quality and bug levels

I don't believe the interface taxonomy stability levels
are changing at all, but the implied "quality of the release"
metric is.

   -John

From jek3@sun.com Wed May 28 10:01:39 2008
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Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 07:03:40 -1000
From: Joseph Kowalski <jek3@sun.com>
Subject: Re: ksh93 Integration Update 1 Amendments 1 [PSARC/2008/344
 FastTracktimeout 06/03/2008]
In-reply-to: <483D2D4E.9F6CA2DA@nrubsig.org>
To: Roland Mainz <roland.mainz@nrubsig.org>
Cc: "Garrett D'Amore" <gdamore@sun.com>,
        Alan Coopersmith <Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com>, PSARC-ext@sun.com
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Roland Mainz wrote:
>> If not, you might consider running that as a separate fast track.
>>     
>
> Why ? The directory is explcitly marked as "project private" for now.
> AFAIK we don't have to notify ARC about further activities there until
> we start making ARC contracts or open the interfaces there...
>   
Not a big thing, but we've not created empty private directories.

Its the "Cement Truck Syndrome".  If Roland gets hit by a cement
truck, we are left with an empty "turd".

Like I said, its not a big thing,... but then again, its also not a big
thing to create it at "first use".

- jek3


From Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com Wed May 28 10:17:08 2008
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Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 10:16:58 -0700
From: Alan Coopersmith <Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com>
Subject: Re: [ksh93-integration-discuss] ksh93 Integration Update 1 Amendments
 1 [PSARC/2008/344 FastTrack timeout 06/03/2008]
In-reply-to: <cd45720b0805280857v42c63743y235019c4ba76279@mail.gmail.com>
Sender: Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com
To: "I. Szczesniak" <iszczesniak@gmail.com>
Cc: Korn Shell 93 integration/migration project discussion
 <ksh93-integration-discuss@opensolaris.org>,
        PSARC-ext@sun.com, Roland.Mainz@nrubsig.org
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I. Szczesniak wrote:
> Such as __sun_ksh_93__.2008.05.28__namespace__.____LONG DESCRIPTION____.enum?

No, such as "set ksh_language_level=93s" or something - it's not our place
to design here, just ask if it's been considered.   Hopefully Glenn or David
can tell us how this is handled in general, since it's surely an issue on all
platforms, not just Solaris.

> I am sorry, this doesn't make sense. No one asked the bash port
> maintainers to do this when bash added features in 3.2 and Sun updated
> to 3.2 last year. Or Python. Or JAVA.

Actually, it's exactly what we do with C, C++, and Java (not sure about
Python off hand) - the compilers have flags for which version of the
language spec a program was written to - you can compile old source
code with cc -xc99=%none, or java -source 1.4 and not worry that your
program uses words that were safe to use in C89 or Java 1.4 but are
now reserved in C99 or Java 6.

-- 
	-Alan Coopersmith-           alan.coopersmith@sun.com
	 Sun Microsystems, Inc. - X Window System Engineering


From jek3@sun.com Wed May 28 10:17:22 2008
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Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 07:19:25 -1000
From: Joseph Kowalski <jek3@sun.com>
Subject: Re: ksh93 Integration Update 1 Amendments 1 [PSARC/2008/344
 FastTracktimeout 06/03/2008]
In-reply-to: <483D3093.4D5F342D@nrubsig.org>
To: Roland Mainz <roland.mainz@nrubsig.org>
Cc: Darren J Moffat <Darren.Moffat@sun.com>,
        Alan Coopersmith <Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com>, PSARC-ext@sun.com
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Roland Mainz wrote:
>> The java packages are in /usr/share/lib/ and /usr/share/lib/java/
>>     
>
> I doubt the JAVA packages there have any ISA-specific code inside.
>   

First, "package" is a reserved word in the Java Language.  Need to be 
careful
here....

A "wad which exports Java interfaces" may have an ELF object as part of
its implementation through the magic of JNI.

Personally, I don't get very excited about /usr/share.  Nobody actually uses
it to export its contents from a heterogenious server (rotating rust is 
too cheep
these days and we don't have tools to make it easy).

Also, people always get this wrong.  Example:

$ ls /usr/gnu
bin    share

Huh?  This share is supposed to be shared?  If that was the case is should
be /usr/gnu/... and /usr/share/gnu/...

Frankly, unless its fairly massive (like /usr/share/doc or /usr/share/images
(making the later up), its just not worth bothering.

Er, I would like to see one location, be it /usr/lib/shell or 
/usr/share/shell.
Having two is just extra complication.

(And yes, I meant /usr/share/shell.  In deference to "linux familiarity", we
hide the "clutter" from /usr/bin.  The FSH says so.  The FSH explicitly
states that its OK to "clutter" /usr/share.  Its encouraged.  So it is 
written;
so it shall be done.)

Is this one of those FOSS cases we are supposed to not get too deep into
polishing the edges?

- jek3


From jek3@sun.com Wed May 28 10:37:01 2008
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Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 07:39:03 -1000
From: Joseph Kowalski <jek3@sun.com>
Subject: Re: 2008/344 [ksh93 Integration Update 1 Amendments 1]
In-reply-to: <200805281634.m4SGYePN020330@ivrel.sfbay.sun.com>
To: Glenn Skinner <glenn.skinner@sun.com>
Cc: PSARC-ext@sun.com, Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com, Roland.Mainz@nrubsig.org
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Glenn Skinner wrote:
>     Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 16:19:44 -0700 (PDT)
>     From: Alan Coopersmith <Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com>
>     Subject: ksh93 Integration Update 1 Amendments 1 [PSARC/2008/344
> 	    FastTrack timeout 06/03/2008]
>
>     ...
>     ## Part 1.1: Update of ksh93
>     The 1.1 portion of this project is the update of ksh93 from
>     ast-ksh.2007-12-15 to ast-ksh-2008-05-22 which marks the update
>     from ksh93 version 's+' to version 't-' (AST/ksh93 uses the
>     (latin) alphabet for its version number, e.g.  version 'a',
>     version 'b' etc.  ; the '+'/'-' means the stabilty status, e.g.
>     '-' means its "alpha", no suffix means its "stable" (e.g.  ready
>     for production usage) and '+' means its a bugfixed stable version
>     etc.).
>
> Are we to infer from this nomenclature description that ksh's
> stability level is decreasing as part of this case?
>
> 		-- Glenn
>   

I read it as "we don't integrate '-' versions into Solaris".  Did I 
guess right?

- jek3


From gdamore@sun.com Wed May 28 10:38:11 2008
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Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 10:30:53 -0700
From: "Garrett D'Amore" <gdamore@sun.com>
Subject: Re: ksh93 Integration Update 1 Amendments 1 [PSARC/2008/344
 FastTracktimeout 06/03/2008]
In-reply-to: <483D941D.4070008@sun.com>
Sender: Garrett.Damore@sun.com
To: Joseph Kowalski <jek3@sun.com>
Cc: Roland Mainz <roland.mainz@nrubsig.org>,
        Darren J Moffat <Darren.Moffat@sun.com>,
        Alan Coopersmith <Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com>, PSARC-ext@sun.com
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Joseph Kowalski wrote:
>
> Is this one of those FOSS cases we are supposed to not get too deep into
> polishing the edges?

I don't think so.  ksh93 is more intrinsically becoming a core 
component, that we build our system upon.  It has a non-External 
commitment.  Therefore, I believe it deserves reasonable review.  
Furthermore, from past experience, it seems that the project team and 
even the upstream sources have been cooperative in making reasonable 
changes required for Solaris.  And sometimes, maybe even we can benefit 
the wider ksh93 audience -- I think at least one of the issues at stake 
here impacts all ksh93 on all platforms, not just Solaris. :-)

(I guess, IMO, I feel like the ksh93 project is more like a friendly 
peer project -- akin perhaps to something like Java or the C compilers 
-- than an FOSS project where we are nothing more than a strict 
consumer.  If the ksh93 folks think differently, I'd like to hear so.)

    -- Garrett



From jek3@sun.com Wed May 28 10:43:49 2008
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Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 07:45:54 -1000
From: Joseph Kowalski <jek3@sun.com>
Subject: Re: 2008/344 [ksh93 Integration Update 1 Amendments 1]
In-reply-to: <483D8EFB.90708@Sun.Com>
To: John Plocher <John.Plocher@sun.com>
Cc: Glenn Skinner <glenn.skinner@sun.com>, PSARC-ext@sun.com,
        Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com, Roland.Mainz@nrubsig.org
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John Plocher wrote:
> Glenn Skinner wrote:
>>     (latin) alphabet for its version number, e.g.  version 'a',
>>     version 'b' etc.  ; the '+'/'-' means the stabilty status, e.g.
>>     '-' means its "alpha", no suffix means its "stable" (e.g.  ready
>>     for production usage) and '+' means its a bugfixed stable version
>>     etc.).
>>
>> Are we to infer from this nomenclature description that ksh's
>> stability level is decreasing as part of this case?
>
> I think there may be a definition overload here:
>
>   stability(ARC)     => interface evolution over time
>      -vs-
>   stability(AST/KSH) => quality and bug levels
>
> I don't believe the interface taxonomy stability levels
> are changing at all, but the implied "quality of the release"
> metric is.
>
>   -John
Right.  Its like the common even/odd release numbers commonly used in 
FOSS.  One such community using this convention is Gnome.  We simply 
don't integrate odd number releases of Gnome.

- jek3


From jek3@Sun.COM Wed May 28 10:51:03 2008
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Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 07:53:01 -1000
From: Joseph Kowalski <jek3@Sun.COM>
Subject: Re: ksh93 Integration Update 1 Amendments 1 [PSARC/2008/344
 FastTracktimeout 06/03/2008]
In-reply-to: <483D96CD.6020607@sun.com>
To: "Garrett D'Amore" <gdamore@Sun.COM>
Cc: Roland Mainz <roland.mainz@nrubsig.org>,
        Darren J Moffat <Darren.Moffat@Sun.COM>,
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Garrett D'Amore wrote:
> Joseph Kowalski wrote:
>>
>> Is this one of those FOSS cases we are supposed to not get too deep into
>> polishing the edges?
>
> I don't think so.  ksh93 is more intrinsically becoming a core 
> component, that we build our system upon.  It has a non-External 
> commitment.  Therefore, I believe it deserves reasonable review.  
> Furthermore, from past experience, it seems that the project team and 
> even the upstream sources have been cooperative in making reasonable 
> changes required for Solaris.  And sometimes, maybe even we can 
> benefit the wider ksh93 audience -- I think at least one of the issues 
> at stake here impacts all ksh93 on all platforms, not just Solaris. :-)
>
> (I guess, IMO, I feel like the ksh93 project is more like a friendly 
> peer project -- akin perhaps to something like Java or the C compilers 
> -- than an FOSS project where we are nothing more than a strict 
> consumer.  If the ksh93 folks think differently, I'd like to hear so.)
>
>    -- Garrett

I just love having my comments taken out of context.   :-)

My comment was about /usr/lib/shell vs. /usr/share/lib/share.  We are we 
inventing here?

Your concerns about "shell keywords" is pretty relevant, but it seems 
they already made their choice.

- jek3




From glenn.skinner@sun.com Wed May 28 11:04:59 2008
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Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 10:57:24 -0700 (PDT)
From: Glenn Skinner <glenn.skinner@sun.com>
Subject: Re: 2008/344 [ksh93 Integration Update 1 Amendments 1]
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    Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 07:39:03 -1000
    From: Joseph Kowalski <jek3@sun.com>
    Subject: Re: 2008/344 [ksh93 Integration Update 1 Amendments 1]

    Glenn Skinner wrote:
    >     Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 16:19:44 -0700 (PDT)
    >     From: Alan Coopersmith <Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com>
    >     Subject: ksh93 Integration Update 1 Amendments 1 [PSARC/2008/344
    > 	    FastTrack timeout 06/03/2008]
    >
    >     ...
    >     ## Part 1.1: Update of ksh93
    >     The 1.1 portion of this project is the update of ksh93 from
    >     ast-ksh.2007-12-15 to ast-ksh-2008-05-22 which marks the update
    >     from ksh93 version 's+' to version 't-' (AST/ksh93 uses the
    >     (latin) alphabet for its version number, e.g.  version 'a',
    >     version 'b' etc.  ; the '+'/'-' means the stabilty status, e.g.
    >     '-' means its "alpha", no suffix means its "stable" (e.g.  ready
    >     for production usage) and '+' means its a bugfixed stable version
    >     etc.).
    >
    > Are we to infer from this nomenclature description that ksh's
    > stability level is decreasing as part of this case?

    I read it as "we don't integrate '-' versions into Solaris".  Did
    I guess right?

That's my underlying concern.  Lower quality and higher probability of
exposed bugs would seem to imply higher risk that we can't meet the
guarantees implied by the (ARC taxonomy) stability level we've
assigned to ksh93.

If the project team wishes to retain the existing stability
classification, that's their prerogative; they'll have chosen to
assume the risk of violating the stability classification's guarantees
(and presumably will have a strategy for mitigating the risk).

But if the team wishes to reduce the stability level, that's an
architectural issue that we'll need to assess.

(And from an overall Solaris perspective, that's quite likely the
right course to take.  Accepting minor breakage due to things like
introducing new keywords in return for more agility in keeping up with
the Joneses is a reasonable trade-off.)

Anyhow, I think we should be explicit about the choices being made
here.

		-- Glenn


From roland.mainz@nrubsig.org Wed May 28 11:41:51 2008
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Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 20:41:35 +0200
From: Roland Mainz <roland.mainz@nrubsig.org>
Subject: Extending ARC tiemout to Monday ? / Re: ksh93 Integration Update 1
 Amendments 1 [PSARC/2008/344 FastTracktimeout 06/03/2008]
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Alan Coopersmith wrote:
> Garrett D'Amore wrote:
> > Are you using (populating) anything in /usr/shell as part of this case?
> >
> > If not, you might consider running that as a separate fast track.
> 
> Without that portion, this case is pretty much an automatic-approval case
> to upgrade to the latest upstream, but since the project team wanted to do
> both at once, I saw no harm in having a combined fast track. 

Erm... since April don't have time to work on the code until Monday we
can change the timeout to Friday (or Monday) ...

----

Bye,
Roland

-- 
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Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 20:49:53 +0200
From: Roland Mainz <roland.mainz@nrubsig.org>
Subject: Re: ksh93 Integration Update 1 Amendments 1
 [PSARC/2008/344FastTracktimeout 06/03/2008]
Sender: gisburn@jupiterb48.nrubsig.org
To: "Garrett D'Amore" <gdamore@sun.com>
Cc: Alan Coopersmith <Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com>, PSARC-ext@sun.com
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Garrett D'Amore wrote:
> Roland Mainz wrote:
> > AFAIK you mean /usr/lib/shell/ and the answer is "maybe", depending on
> > time. The first real consumer may be the "man-rewrite" project which
> > stuffs the shared shell code into
> > usr/lib/shell/ksh/org/opensolaris/man/misc/ or something like that (e.g.
> > common shell functions for DocBook/SGML+SolBook/SGML+DOcBook/XML manpage
> > handling and the catman crawler dispatcher code)
> >
> 
> That would not be this case, though, right?   So you aren't populating
> anything there as part of what you need for the other portions of this
> case, right?

No, I didn't indent to do it for the upcoming putback since "shcomp" is
first introduced by the same putback - which means we can't compile the
script modules and have to deliver them as readable script code. The
original idea was to provide only compiled script modules and an
interface description so noone can just look at the code and rely on
implementation details not described in the interface specification...
... on the other side I can populate /usr/lib/shell/ easily with the
common code for HTTP handing, the function set to manage child processes
in a fine-grained manner, application locks (remeber the example code I
posted a while ago for file-based mutexes) and some other stuff and
offer this API for ARC contracts...

> >> If not, you might consider running that as a separate fast track.
> >
> > Why ? The directory is explcitly marked as "project private" for now.
> > AFAIK we don't have to notify ARC about further activities there until
> > we start making ARC contracts or open the interfaces there...
> 
> Because it isn't intrinsic to this case, and proposes things that have
> impact outside of ksh93 (you've suggested bash, zsh, etc.)  I'd rather
> see that as a separate case.  (It doesn't necessarily mean that such a
> case will be contentious.)

Well, we could rename the ARC case to be a joint ARC case of the
"ksh93-integration" (which covers ksh93) and "shell" project (which
covers bash, zsh, POSIX shell, tcsh, csh, dash etc.) ... would that work
?

----

Bye,
Roland

-- 
  __ .  . __
 (o.\ \/ /.o) roland.mainz@nrubsig.org
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From gdamore@sun.com Wed May 28 12:07:16 2008
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Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 11:59:58 -0700
From: "Garrett D'Amore" <gdamore@sun.com>
Subject: Re: ksh93 Integration Update 1 Amendments 1
 [PSARC/2008/344FastTracktimeout 06/03/2008]
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Frankly, the effort to create a new case (fast track or otherwise) is so 
small, that I'd just spin off the /usr/lib/shell part into a separate 
fast track.  If you would like a sponsor for it, write up a quick draft 
-- you can probably just extract the relevant text from this case -- and 
I'll be happy to sponsor it for you.  (Really, I'm not trying to make 
more work for you, but simply make it easier to review/discuss, and 
decrease overall contention.)

As far as populating /usr/lib/shell with other unrelated functionality 
goes: if you have functionality to populate there that is not related to 
the ksh93 update portions of this case, then I *strongly* request you 
submit that as a separate case.  I feel strongly enough about that, that 
I'll probably hit the derail button if you try to squeeze that into this 
case.

Please also note, I'm merely requesting a separation of review 
components.  You can deliver the bits together, or separately, according 
to whatever arrangements you and the CTeam make.

    -- Garrett

Roland Mainz wrote:
> Garrett D'Amore wrote:
>   
>> Roland Mainz wrote:
>>     
>>> AFAIK you mean /usr/lib/shell/ and the answer is "maybe", depending on
>>> time. The first real consumer may be the "man-rewrite" project which
>>> stuffs the shared shell code into
>>> usr/lib/shell/ksh/org/opensolaris/man/misc/ or something like that (e.g.
>>> common shell functions for DocBook/SGML+SolBook/SGML+DOcBook/XML manpage
>>> handling and the catman crawler dispatcher code)
>>>
>>>       
>> That would not be this case, though, right?   So you aren't populating
>> anything there as part of what you need for the other portions of this
>> case, right?
>>     
>
> No, I didn't indent to do it for the upcoming putback since "shcomp" is
> first introduced by the same putback - which means we can't compile the
> script modules and have to deliver them as readable script code. The
> original idea was to provide only compiled script modules and an
> interface description so noone can just look at the code and rely on
> implementation details not described in the interface specification...
> ... on the other side I can populate /usr/lib/shell/ easily with the
> common code for HTTP handing, the function set to manage child processes
> in a fine-grained manner, application locks (remeber the example code I
> posted a while ago for file-based mutexes) and some other stuff and
> offer this API for ARC contracts...
>
>   
>>>> If not, you might consider running that as a separate fast track.
>>>>         
>>> Why ? The directory is explcitly marked as "project private" for now.
>>> AFAIK we don't have to notify ARC about further activities there until
>>> we start making ARC contracts or open the interfaces there...
>>>       
>> Because it isn't intrinsic to this case, and proposes things that have
>> impact outside of ksh93 (you've suggested bash, zsh, etc.)  I'd rather
>> see that as a separate case.  (It doesn't necessarily mean that such a
>> case will be contentious.)
>>     
>
> Well, we could rename the ARC case to be a joint ARC case of the
> "ksh93-integration" (which covers ksh93) and "shell" project (which
> covers bash, zsh, POSIX shell, tcsh, csh, dash etc.) ... would that work
> ?
>
> ----
>
> Bye,
> Roland
>
>   


From roland.mainz@nrubsig.org Wed May 28 12:08:48 2008
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Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 21:08:40 +0200
From: Roland Mainz <roland.mainz@nrubsig.org>
Subject: Why do we use ksh93 version "t-" and not vesion "s+" / Re: 2008/344
 [ksh93 Integration Update 1 Amendments 1]
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To: John Plocher <John.Plocher@sun.com>
Cc: Glenn Skinner <glenn.skinner@sun.com>, PSARC-ext@sun.com,
        Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com
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John Plocher wrote:
> Glenn Skinner wrote:
> >     (latin) alphabet for its version number, e.g.  version 'a',
> >     version 'b' etc.  ; the '+'/'-' means the stabilty status, e.g.
> >     '-' means its "alpha", no suffix means its "stable" (e.g.  ready
> >     for production usage) and '+' means its a bugfixed stable version
> >     etc.).
> >
> > Are we to infer from this nomenclature description that ksh's
> > stability level is decreasing as part of this case?
> 
> I think there may be a definition overload here:
> 
>    stability(ARC)     => interface evolution over time
>       -vs-
>    stability(AST/KSH) => quality and bug levels
> 
> I don't believe the interface taxonomy stability levels
> are changing at all, but the implied "quality of the release"
> metric is.

Right... we're talking about version numbers, not ARC interface stabilty
levels...
... some notes:
1. Orginally we planned to use ksh93 version "s+", however the
__MASSIVE__ amount of bugfixes and other changes needed required at some
point so many changes that it wasn't suiteable for the ksh93s+ stable
branch anymore. However as a result we have all matching RFEs and
bugfixes implemented (including the request for "static" variables in
functions, a _major_ set of bugfixes for variable tree handling (which
required a full rewrite of ksh93's database-like variable storage
subsystem) and lots of other tweaks and changes) and that's IMHO more
worth than crouching around with a stable version and still having bugs
open in bugster.

2. Just because the code is marked as "alpha"/"beta" doesn't mean it's
"instable". To ensure a certain level of stabilty of the code we run the
ksh93 test suite (currently: 41 tests, however four more are currently
being under construction) for each locale installed on the system ($
locale -a | wc -l # says B84 has 332 locales installed, we use a subset
of ~~90 locales right now (which means a single test suite cycle alone
now runs more than two hours on a decent system)) and the new putback
will even tighten the grip on any bugs by using a a) secret switch in
libast's memory allocator system to do libumem-style memory corruption
tests and b) testing both normal script code and compiled script code.
Additionally we run manual tests and run the POSIX test suite. And we
release binaries for testing and make sure that using ksh93 as
/sbin/sh+/usr/bin/sh results in a bootable system which can compile
OS/Net.
Or short: We do massive amount of testing - please don't worry about the
stabilty of the code (which doesn't mean we're 100% secure against any
isues we don't know about (which means: Please test the test binaries
and _report_ bugs or any weired issues. We can't fix bugs if we don't
know them...)).

----

Bye,
Roland

-- 
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Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 21:33:10 +0200
From: Roland Mainz <roland.mainz@nrubsig.org>
Subject: Re: ksh93 Integration Update 1 Amendments 1 [PSARC/2008/344
 FastTracktimeout06/03/2008]
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To: Joseph Kowalski <jek3@sun.com>
Cc: Darren J Moffat <Darren.Moffat@sun.com>,
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Joseph Kowalski wrote:
> Roland Mainz wrote:
> >> The java packages are in /usr/share/lib/ and /usr/share/lib/java/
> >
> > I doubt the JAVA packages there have any ISA-specific code inside.
> 
> First, "package" is a reserved word in the Java Language.  Need to be
> careful here....
> 
> A "wad which exports Java interfaces" may have an ELF object as part of
> its implementation through the magic of JNI.

Right... and ksh93 can do the same, either single commands/functions or
load whole new ksh supersets (tksh (TCK/TK ksh) and biosh are
implemented this way and dtksh+dbx could be implemented this way, too).

> Personally, I don't get very excited about /usr/share.  Nobody actually uses
> it to export its contents from a heterogenious server (rotating rust is
> too cheep
> these days and we don't have tools to make it easy).

AFAIK you are underestimating how most university clusters (or larger
sites like CERN) are set-up (I think the CERN people will likely
complain loudly via a service ticket or worse if they can't setup their
machine that way anymore), e.g. usually the local disks are for swap and
the remaining stuff comes via NFS (and TFTP for booting) and stuff like
/usr/share is seperated out, too.

> Also, people always get this wrong.  Example:
> 
> $ ls /usr/gnu
> bin    share
> 
> Huh?  This share is supposed to be shared?  If that was the case is should
> be /usr/gnu/... and /usr/share/gnu/...

Well... it's still better having the GNU stuff seperate... we're still
suffering from the GNU parts like "readlink" which went into /usr/bin/
and then turned to be out the greatest abdominations ever
(<rant>sometimes, at night... when it's 4AM and I hit problems with 'GNU
"readlink" vs. uncommon fileystem' I am dreaming about appealing the
whole /usr/gnu/ ARC case because of the GNU "readlink"
<censored>-stuff</rant> (yes... I've talked to Stephen Hahn about that a
while ago... but then more important stuff burried the subject... ;-(
)).

> Frankly, unless its fairly massive (like /usr/share/doc or /usr/share/images
> (making the later up), its just not worth bothering.
> 
> Er, I would like to see one location, be it /usr/lib/shell or
> /usr/share/shell.
> Having two is just extra complication.

Erm... as said I only wanted to populate /usr/lib/shell/ ...

----

Bye,
Roland

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From jek3@sun.com Wed May 28 12:42:58 2008
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From: Joseph Kowalski <jek3@sun.com>
Subject: Re: ksh93 Integration Update 1 Amendments 1 [PSARC/2008/344
 FastTracktimeout06/03/2008]
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Roland Mainz wrote:
>
> AFAIK you are underestimating how most university clusters (or larger
> sites like CERN) are set-up (I think the CERN people will likely
> complain loudly via a service ticket or worse if they can't setup their
> machine that way anymore), e.g. usually the local disks are for swap and
> the remaining stuff comes via NFS (and TFTP for booting) and stuff like
> /usr/share is seperated out, too.
>   

We (Sun) tried to find out if any locations did this (circa 2004).  We 
found none.

>> Er, I would like to see one location, be it /usr/lib/shell or
>> /usr/share/shell.
>> Having two is just extra complication.
>>     
>
> Erm... as said I only wanted to populate /usr/lib/shell/ ...
>   

Yep, I was trying to agree.

- jek3


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Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 21:45:12 +0200
From: Roland Mainz <roland.mainz@nrubsig.org>
Subject: Re: 2008/344 [ksh93 Integration Update 1 Amendments 1]
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Glenn Skinner wrote:
>     Glenn Skinner wrote:
>     >     Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 16:19:44 -0700 (PDT)
>     >     From: Alan Coopersmith <Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com>
>     >     Subject: ksh93 Integration Update 1 Amendments 1 [PSARC/2008/344
>     >       FastTrack timeout 06/03/2008]
>     >
>     >     ...
>     >     ## Part 1.1: Update of ksh93
>     >     The 1.1 portion of this project is the update of ksh93 from
>     >     ast-ksh.2007-12-15 to ast-ksh-2008-05-22 which marks the update
>     >     from ksh93 version 's+' to version 't-' (AST/ksh93 uses the
>     >     (latin) alphabet for its version number, e.g.  version 'a',
>     >     version 'b' etc.  ; the '+'/'-' means the stabilty status, e.g.
>     >     '-' means its "alpha", no suffix means its "stable" (e.g.  ready
>     >     for production usage) and '+' means its a bugfixed stable version
>     >     etc.).
>     >
>     > Are we to infer from this nomenclature description that ksh's
>     > stability level is decreasing as part of this case?
> 
>     I read it as "we don't integrate '-' versions into Solaris".  Did
>     I guess right?
> 
> That's my underlying concern.  Lower quality and higher probability of
> exposed bugs would seem to imply higher risk that we can't meet the
> guarantees implied by the (ARC taxonomy) stability level we've
> assigned to ksh93.

As said in
http://mail.opensolaris.org/pipermail/ksh93-integration-discuss/2008-May/006127.html
- we don't want to change the ARC stabilty level. We just wanted to
point out that we grab a newer version of the ksh93 upstream sources
with more changes than appropriate for a "stable branch" codebase
(http://mail.opensolaris.org/pipermail/ksh93-integration-discuss/2008-May/006127.html
explains why we did that).

> If the project team wishes to retain the existing stability
> classification, that's their prerogative; they'll have chosen to
> assume the risk of violating the stability classification's guarantees
> (and presumably will have a strategy for mitigating the risk).

Erm... what does that mean ?

----

Bye,
Roland

-- 
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From roland.mainz@nrubsig.org Wed May 28 12:46:45 2008
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Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 21:46:34 +0200
From: Roland Mainz <roland.mainz@nrubsig.org>
Subject: Re: 2008/344 [ksh93 Integration Update 1 Amendments 1]
Sender: gisburn@jupiterb48.nrubsig.org
To: Joseph Kowalski <jek3@sun.com>
Cc: Glenn Skinner <glenn.skinner@sun.com>, PSARC-ext@sun.com,
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Joseph Kowalski wrote:
> Glenn Skinner wrote:
[snip]
> >     ## Part 1.1: Update of ksh93
> >     The 1.1 portion of this project is the update of ksh93 from
> >     ast-ksh.2007-12-15 to ast-ksh-2008-05-22 which marks the update
> >     from ksh93 version 's+' to version 't-' (AST/ksh93 uses the
> >     (latin) alphabet for its version number, e.g.  version 'a',
> >     version 'b' etc.  ; the '+'/'-' means the stabilty status, e.g.
> >     '-' means its "alpha", no suffix means its "stable" (e.g.  ready
> >     for production usage) and '+' means its a bugfixed stable version
> >     etc.).
> >
> > Are we to infer from this nomenclature description that ksh's
> > stability level is decreasing as part of this case?
> 
> I read it as "we don't integrate '-' versions into Solaris".  Did I
> guess right?

Grumpf... IMO it depends what the '-' means - see
http://mail.opensolaris.org/pipermail/ksh93-integration-discuss/2008-May/006127.html
for the testing we do right now for ksh93...

----

Bye,
Roland

-- 
  __ .  . __
 (o.\ \/ /.o) roland.mainz@nrubsig.org
  \__\/\/__/  MPEG specialist, C&&JAVA&&Sun&&Unix programmer
  /O /==\ O\  TEL +49 641 7950090
 (;O/ \/ \O;)

From jek3@sun.com Wed May 28 12:49:50 2008
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Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 09:51:51 -1000
From: Joseph Kowalski <jek3@sun.com>
Subject: Re: ksh93 Integration Update 1 Amendments 1
 [PSARC/2008/344FastTracktimeout 06/03/2008]
In-reply-to: <483DABAE.5000104@sun.com>
To: "Garrett D'Amore" <gdamore@sun.com>
Cc: Roland Mainz <roland.mainz@nrubsig.org>,
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Garrett D'Amore wrote:
> Frankly, the effort to create a new case (fast track or otherwise) is 
> so small, that I'd just spin off the /usr/lib/shell part into a 
> separate fast track.  If you would like a sponsor for it, write up a 
> quick draft -- you can probably just extract the relevant text from 
> this case -- and I'll be happy to sponsor it for you.  (Really, I'm 
> not trying to make more work for you, but simply make it easier to 
> review/discuss, and decrease overall contention.)
>
> As far as populating /usr/lib/shell with other unrelated functionality 
> goes: if you have functionality to populate there that is not related 
> to the ksh93 update portions of this case, then I *strongly* request 
> you submit that as a separate case.  I feel strongly enough about 
> that, that I'll probably hit the derail button if you try to squeeze 
> that into this case.
>
> Please also note, I'm merely requesting a separation of review 
> components.  You can deliver the bits together, or separately, 
> according to whatever arrangements you and the CTeam make.
>
>    -- Garrett

I've not heard from any other ARC members that they feel strongly about 
this.  That doesn't mean they don't; we often just let the poster of the 
initial request continue to discuss.

However, this is starting to sound like a lone voice here.

Do other ARC members believe this is significant and we should continue 
discussing this?

(I actually agree with Garrett's suggestion. However, Roland seemed to 
not accept this *suggestion*, so I think we should just drop it.)

- jek3


From jek3@sun.com Wed May 28 12:56:39 2008
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Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 09:58:41 -1000
From: Joseph Kowalski <jek3@sun.com>
Subject: Re: 2008/344 [ksh93 Integration Update 1 Amendments 1]
In-reply-to: <483DB69A.AD3F88AA@nrubsig.org>
To: Roland Mainz <roland.mainz@nrubsig.org>
Cc: Glenn Skinner <glenn.skinner@sun.com>, PSARC-ext@sun.com,
        Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com
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Roland Mainz wrote:
> Joseph Kowalski wrote:
>   
>> Glenn Skinner wrote:
>>     
> [snip]
>   
>>>     ## Part 1.1: Update of ksh93
>>>     The 1.1 portion of this project is the update of ksh93 from
>>>     ast-ksh.2007-12-15 to ast-ksh-2008-05-22 which marks the update
>>>     from ksh93 version 's+' to version 't-' (AST/ksh93 uses the
>>>     (latin) alphabet for its version number, e.g.  version 'a',
>>>     version 'b' etc.  ; the '+'/'-' means the stabilty status, e.g.
>>>     '-' means its "alpha", no suffix means its "stable" (e.g.  ready
>>>     for production usage) and '+' means its a bugfixed stable version
>>>     etc.).
>>>
>>> Are we to infer from this nomenclature description that ksh's
>>> stability level is decreasing as part of this case?
>>>       
>> I read it as "we don't integrate '-' versions into Solaris".  Did I
>> guess right?
>>     
>
> Grumpf... IMO it depends what the '-' means - see
> http://mail.opensolaris.org/pipermail/ksh93-integration-discuss/2008-May/006127.html
> for the testing we do right now for ksh93...
>   


Testing isn't the issue.

By assigning the '-' suffix the community is asserting "not ready for 
prime time".  We should believe them and not consider integration into 
the OpenSolaris trunk.  This seems very obvious to me.  I would guess 
that the community wouldn't flinch about changing an interface which 
first appeared in a '-' release.  Seems the reason for having such releases.

Perhaps this is a C-team issue, more than an ARC issue, but regardless, 
such integrations should not occur.

- jek3





From gdamore@sun.com Wed May 28 13:02:02 2008
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Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 12:54:45 -0700
From: "Garrett D'Amore" <gdamore@sun.com>
Subject: Re: ksh93 Integration Update 1 Amendments 1
 [PSARC/2008/344FastTracktimeout 06/03/2008]
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Joseph Kowalski wrote:
> Garrett D'Amore wrote:
>> Frankly, the effort to create a new case (fast track or otherwise) is 
>> so small, that I'd just spin off the /usr/lib/shell part into a 
>> separate fast track.  If you would like a sponsor for it, write up a 
>> quick draft -- you can probably just extract the relevant text from 
>> this case -- and I'll be happy to sponsor it for you.  (Really, I'm 
>> not trying to make more work for you, but simply make it easier to 
>> review/discuss, and decrease overall contention.)
>>
>> As far as populating /usr/lib/shell with other unrelated 
>> functionality goes: if you have functionality to populate there that 
>> is not related to the ksh93 update portions of this case, then I 
>> *strongly* request you submit that as a separate case.  I feel 
>> strongly enough about that, that I'll probably hit the derail button 
>> if you try to squeeze that into this case.
>>
>> Please also note, I'm merely requesting a separation of review 
>> components.  You can deliver the bits together, or separately, 
>> according to whatever arrangements you and the CTeam make.
>>
>>    -- Garrett
>
> I've not heard from any other ARC members that they feel strongly 
> about this.  That doesn't mean they don't; we often just let the 
> poster of the initial request continue to discuss.
>
> However, this is starting to sound like a lone voice here.
>
> Do other ARC members believe this is significant and we should 
> continue discussing this?
>
> (I actually agree with Garrett's suggestion. However, Roland seemed to 
> not accept this *suggestion*, so I think we should just drop it.)

That's fine.  I offered to help as well if they wanted to follow my 
suggestion.

That said I don't want to suddenly have new functionality show up as 
part of *this* case -- e.g. the HTTP functionality to which Roland was 
alluding.  If there were an attempt to grow that new functionality in 
*this case*, then I'd derail.

I will let the matter drop unless the submitter wants to follow my 
suggestion (in which case my offer of help stands), or the submitter 
takes the inadvisable action of trying to suddenly increase the scope of 
this case by adding a bunch of new unrelated functionality into the 
/usr/lib/shell directory.

    -- Garrett


From gdamore@Sun.COM Wed May 28 13:06:00 2008
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Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 12:58:44 -0700
From: "Garrett D'Amore" <gdamore@Sun.COM>
Subject: Re: 2008/344 [ksh93 Integration Update 1 Amendments 1]
In-reply-to: <483DB971.5000802@sun.com>
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To: Joseph Kowalski <jek3@Sun.COM>
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        Alan.Coopersmith@Sun.COM
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Joseph Kowalski wrote:
> Roland Mainz wrote:
>> Joseph Kowalski wrote:
>>  
>>> Glenn Skinner wrote:
>>>     
>> [snip]
>>  
>>>>     ## Part 1.1: Update of ksh93
>>>>     The 1.1 portion of this project is the update of ksh93 from
>>>>     ast-ksh.2007-12-15 to ast-ksh-2008-05-22 which marks the update
>>>>     from ksh93 version 's+' to version 't-' (AST/ksh93 uses the
>>>>     (latin) alphabet for its version number, e.g.  version 'a',
>>>>     version 'b' etc.  ; the '+'/'-' means the stabilty status, e.g.
>>>>     '-' means its "alpha", no suffix means its "stable" (e.g.  ready
>>>>     for production usage) and '+' means its a bugfixed stable version
>>>>     etc.).
>>>>
>>>> Are we to infer from this nomenclature description that ksh's
>>>> stability level is decreasing as part of this case?
>>>>       
>>> I read it as "we don't integrate '-' versions into Solaris".  Did I
>>> guess right?
>>>     
>>
>> Grumpf... IMO it depends what the '-' means - see
>> http://mail.opensolaris.org/pipermail/ksh93-integration-discuss/2008-May/006127.html 
>>
>> for the testing we do right now for ksh93...
>>   
>
>
> Testing isn't the issue.
>
> By assigning the '-' suffix the community is asserting "not ready for 
> prime time".  We should believe them and not consider integration into 
> the OpenSolaris trunk.  This seems very obvious to me.  I would guess 
> that the community wouldn't flinch about changing an interface which 
> first appeared in a '-' release.  Seems the reason for having such 
> releases.
>
> Perhaps this is a C-team issue, more than an ARC issue, but 
> regardless, such integrations should not occur.

+1.  If the upstream sources believe their stuff is stable enough for 
everyone to use, then one would expect that they'd indicate this using 
their typical release nomenclature.

It may be helpful for persons observing this, as well as the project 
team, to understand that Solaris integrations always need to conform to 
a "release ready" rule.  That is, we don't integrate software that 
aren't comfortable including in a full release, as that software exists 
*at the time of integration*.

    -- Garrett


From glenn.skinner@Sun.COM Wed May 28 13:06:14 2008
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Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 12:58:42 -0700 (PDT)
From: Glenn Skinner <glenn.skinner@Sun.COM>
Subject: Re: 2008/344 [ksh93 Integration Update 1 Amendments 1]
To: roland.mainz@nrubsig.org
Cc: PSARC-ext@Sun.COM, Alan.Coopersmith@Sun.COM
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    Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 21:45:12 +0200
    From: Roland Mainz <roland.mainz@nrubsig.org>
    Subject: Re: 2008/344 [ksh93 Integration Update 1 Amendments 1]

    Glenn Skinner wrote:
    >     Glenn Skinner wrote:
    >     >     Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 16:19:44 -0700 (PDT)
    >     >     From: Alan Coopersmith <Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com>
    >     >     Subject: ksh93 Integration Update 1 Amendments 1 [PSARC/2008/344
    >     >       FastTrack timeout 06/03/2008]
    >     >
    ...
    >     > Are we to infer from this nomenclature description that ksh's
    >     > stability level is decreasing as part of this case?
    > 
    >     I read it as "we don't integrate '-' versions into Solaris".  Did
    >     I guess right?
    > 
    > That's my underlying concern.  Lower quality and higher probability of
    > exposed bugs would seem to imply higher risk that we can't meet the
    > guarantees implied by the (ARC taxonomy) stability level we've
    > assigned to ksh93.

    As said in

    http://mail.opensolaris.org/pipermail/ksh93-integration-discuss/2008-May/006127.html
    - we don't want to change the ARC stabilty level. We just wanted to
    point out that we grab a newer version of the ksh93 upstream sources
    with more changes than appropriate for a "stable branch" codebase
    (http://mail.opensolaris.org/pipermail/ksh93-integration-discuss/2008-May/006127.html
    explains why we did that).

    > If the project team wishes to retain the existing stability
    > classification, that's their prerogative; they'll have chosen to
    > assume the risk of violating the stability classification's guarantees
    > (and presumably will have a strategy for mitigating the risk).

    Erm... what does that mean ?

It means that you can choose to leave ksh's stability classification
(for ARC purposes) unchanged, and (I think) have done so.  To go along
with that choice, you've decided that extensive testing is sufficient
to uphold the guarantees that are implicit in that choice of stability
level.  (That's the mitigation strategy I was talking about.)

That's enough to address my concern.

		-- Glenn


From Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com Wed May 28 13:16:40 2008
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Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 13:16:31 -0700
From: Alan Coopersmith <Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com>
Subject: Re: ksh93 Integration Update 1 Amendments 1
 [PSARC/2008/344FastTracktimeout 06/03/2008]
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Roland Mainz wrote:
> Well, we could rename the ARC case to be a joint ARC case of the
> "ksh93-integration" (which covers ksh93) and "shell" project (which
> covers bash, zsh, POSIX shell, tcsh, csh, dash etc.) ... would that work
> ?

There is no mapping really between OpenSolaris Project groups and ARC
cases - so that wouldn't make a difference, since you'd be trying to
describe something that we don't use.

-- 
	-Alan Coopersmith-           alan.coopersmith@sun.com
	 Sun Microsystems, Inc. - X Window System Engineering


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Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 22:16:56 +0200
From: Roland Mainz <roland.mainz@nrubsig.org>
Subject: Seperate ARC case for /usr/lib/shell/ ... ? / Re: ksh93 Integration
 Update 1 Amendments 1 [PSARC/2008/344FastTracktimeout06/03/2008]
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To: Joseph Kowalski <jek3@sun.com>
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Joseph Kowalski wrote:
> Garrett D'Amore wrote:
> > Frankly, the effort to create a new case (fast track or otherwise) is
> > so small, that I'd just spin off the /usr/lib/shell part into a
> > separate fast track.  If you would like a sponsor for it, write up a
> > quick draft -- you can probably just extract the relevant text from
> > this case -- and I'll be happy to sponsor it for you.  (Really, I'm
> > not trying to make more work for you, but simply make it easier to
> > review/discuss, and decrease overall contention.)
> >
> > As far as populating /usr/lib/shell with other unrelated functionality
> > goes: if you have functionality to populate there that is not related
> > to the ksh93 update portions of this case, then I *strongly* request
> > you submit that as a separate case.  I feel strongly enough about
> > that, that I'll probably hit the derail button if you try to squeeze
> > that into this case.
> >
> > Please also note, I'm merely requesting a separation of review
> > components.  You can deliver the bits together, or separately,
> > according to whatever arrangements you and the CTeam make.
[snip]
> (I actually agree with Garrett's suggestion. However, Roland seemed to
> not accept this *suggestion*, so I think we should just drop it.)

Erm... I'm just answering the ARC emails out of sync and I'm simply not
fast enought to answer all emails ASAP (around seven emails are already
in the drafts folder but I'm a slow email writer and usually need lots
of time...) ...
... we can move the /usr/lib/shell/ stuff out into a seperate ARC case
to make it simpler but the content would be the same - we add
/usr/lib/shell/, it's private and we run an experiment there which is
private until we open it for the public... and then my question is: Why
should we make a seperate ARC case if the content of the case is the
same ?

----

Bye,
Roland

-- 
  __ .  . __
 (o.\ \/ /.o) roland.mainz@nrubsig.org
  \__\/\/__/  MPEG specialist, C&&JAVA&&Sun&&Unix programmer
  /O /==\ O\  TEL +49 641 7950090
 (;O/ \/ \O;)

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Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 13:18:08 -0700
From: Alan Coopersmith <Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com>
Subject: Re: Extending ARC tiemout to Monday ? / Re: ksh93 Integration Update 1
 Amendments 1 [PSARC/2008/344 FastTracktimeout 06/03/2008]
In-reply-to: <483DA75F.10A078CA@nrubsig.org>
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Cc: "Garrett D'Amore" <gdamore@sun.com>, PSARC-ext@sun.com
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Roland Mainz wrote:
> Alan Coopersmith wrote:
>> Garrett D'Amore wrote:
>>> Are you using (populating) anything in /usr/shell as part of this case?
>>>
>>> If not, you might consider running that as a separate fast track.
>> Without that portion, this case is pretty much an automatic-approval case
>> to upgrade to the latest upstream, but since the project team wanted to do
>> both at once, I saw no harm in having a combined fast track. 
> 
> Erm... since April don't have time to work on the code until Monday we
> can change the timeout to Friday (or Monday) ...

PSARC decided today to let the original timer continue to run since the
case is still under discussion - that's running until Tuesday, June 3
already - do you mean to extend it beyond that until Friday, June 6 or
Monday June 9?

-- 
	-Alan Coopersmith-           alan.coopersmith@sun.com
	 Sun Microsystems, Inc. - X Window System Engineering


From Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com Wed May 28 13:23:45 2008
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Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 13:23:24 -0700
From: Alan Coopersmith <Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com>
Subject: Re: 2008/344 [ksh93 Integration Update 1 Amendments 1]
In-reply-to: <483DB974.70909@sun.com>
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To: "Garrett D'Amore" <gdamore@sun.com>
Cc: Joseph Kowalski <jek3@sun.com>, Roland Mainz <roland.mainz@nrubsig.org>,
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Garrett D'Amore wrote:
> It may be helpful for persons observing this, as well as the project
> team, to understand that Solaris integrations always need to conform to
> a "release ready" rule.  That is, we don't integrate software that
> aren't comfortable including in a full release, as that software exists
> *at the time of integration*.

I don't believe that's the actual rule - I know the ON consolidation has
that as a rough goal, but integrations of beta versions are explicitly
allowed in other consolidations, and I'm not sure where the ON rule banning
it would be written down.

-- 
	-Alan Coopersmith-           alan.coopersmith@sun.com
	 Sun Microsystems, Inc. - X Window System Engineering


From gdamore@sun.com Wed May 28 13:23:56 2008
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Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 13:16:45 -0700
From: "Garrett D'Amore" <gdamore@sun.com>
Subject: Re: Seperate ARC case for /usr/lib/shell/ ... ? / Re: ksh93
 Integration Update 1 Amendments 1 [PSARC/2008/344FastTracktimeout06/03/2008]
In-reply-to: <483DBDB8.FC26C998@nrubsig.org>
Sender: Garrett.Damore@sun.com
To: Roland Mainz <roland.mainz@nrubsig.org>
Cc: Joseph Kowalski <jek3@sun.com>,
        Alan Coopersmith <Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com>, PSARC-ext@sun.com
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Roland Mainz wrote:
> Joseph Kowalski wrote:
>   
>> Garrett D'Amore wrote:
>>     
>>> Frankly, the effort to create a new case (fast track or otherwise) is
>>> so small, that I'd just spin off the /usr/lib/shell part into a
>>> separate fast track.  If you would like a sponsor for it, write up a
>>> quick draft -- you can probably just extract the relevant text from
>>> this case -- and I'll be happy to sponsor it for you.  (Really, I'm
>>> not trying to make more work for you, but simply make it easier to
>>> review/discuss, and decrease overall contention.)
>>>
>>> As far as populating /usr/lib/shell with other unrelated functionality
>>> goes: if you have functionality to populate there that is not related
>>> to the ksh93 update portions of this case, then I *strongly* request
>>> you submit that as a separate case.  I feel strongly enough about
>>> that, that I'll probably hit the derail button if you try to squeeze
>>> that into this case.
>>>
>>> Please also note, I'm merely requesting a separation of review
>>> components.  You can deliver the bits together, or separately,
>>> according to whatever arrangements you and the CTeam make.
>>>       
> [snip]
>   
>> (I actually agree with Garrett's suggestion. However, Roland seemed to
>> not accept this *suggestion*, so I think we should just drop it.)
>>     
>
> Erm... I'm just answering the ARC emails out of sync and I'm simply not
> fast enought to answer all emails ASAP (around seven emails are already
> in the drafts folder but I'm a slow email writer and usually need lots
> of time...) ...
> ... we can move the /usr/lib/shell/ stuff out into a seperate ARC case
> to make it simpler but the content would be the same - we add
> /usr/lib/shell/, it's private and we run an experiment there which is
> private until we open it for the public... and then my question is: Why
> should we make a seperate ARC case if the content of the case is the
> same ?
>   

The reason is to allow the cases to be reviewed, and approved separately.

If there were some kind of technical linkage or dependency, then sure, 
keeping them together might make sense.  But IIUC that's not case.

(Put another way, why not have the EOF of SoundBlaster Pro support also 
bundled in this case?  Answer:  Because there is little or no overlap or 
relation.)

I'm also of the believe that the /usr/lib/shell case really should 
probably wait until you have a consumer for it.  Putting out a project 
private directory with nothing in it really doesn't serve us much good, IMO.

Anyway, if you want to separate it out, send me a document with those 
bits pruned out, and I'll go ahead and submit them whenever you're ready 
for me to.

    -- Garrett


From roland.mainz@nrubsig.org Wed May 28 13:25:10 2008
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Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 22:24:17 +0200
From: Roland Mainz <roland.mainz@nrubsig.org>
Subject: Seperate ARC case for /usr/lib/shell/ ? / Re: ksh93 Integration Update
 1 Amendments 1[PSARC/2008/344FastTracktimeout 06/03/2008]
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Garrett D'Amore wrote:
> Joseph Kowalski wrote:
> > Garrett D'Amore wrote:
[snip]
> > I've not heard from any other ARC members that they feel strongly
> > about this.  That doesn't mean they don't; we often just let the
> > poster of the initial request continue to discuss.
> >
> > However, this is starting to sound like a lone voice here.
> >
> > Do other ARC members believe this is significant and we should
> > continue discussing this?
> >
> > (I actually agree with Garrett's suggestion. However, Roland seemed to
> > not accept this *suggestion*, so I think we should just drop it.)
> 
> That's fine.  I offered to help as well if they wanted to follow my
> suggestion.
> 
> That said I don't want to suddenly have new functionality show up as
> part of *this* case -- e.g. the HTTP functionality to which Roland was
> alluding.  If there were an attempt to grow that new functionality in
> *this case*, then I'd derail.

Erm... why ? The /usr/lib/shell/ directory is _private_ - how we
populate it (and "when") is AFAIK only a question for code review and
not for the ARC case. Technically I have content for the directory but I
wanted to wait until "shcomp" is available on the build machines (which
needs usually five or more Nevada builds counting from our current
putback to avoid the _pain_ for build machine admins caused by a "flag
day").

> I will let the matter drop unless the submitter wants to follow my
> suggestion (in which case my offer of help stands), or the submitter
> takes the inadvisable action of trying to suddenly increase the scope of
> this case by adding a bunch of new unrelated functionality into the
> /usr/lib/shell directory.

The scope of the case includes /usr/lib/shell/ with _private_ content.
The description of the hiearacial shell function library was only
thought as a short description/justification why we want this directory.

----

Bye,
Roland

-- 
  __ .  . __
 (o.\ \/ /.o) roland.mainz@nrubsig.org
  \__\/\/__/  MPEG specialist, C&&JAVA&&Sun&&Unix programmer
  /O /==\ O\  TEL +49 641 7950090
 (;O/ \/ \O;)

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Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 13:28:57 -0700
From: "Garrett D'Amore" <gdamore@sun.com>
Subject: Re: Seperate ARC case for /usr/lib/shell/ ? / Re: ksh93 Integration
 Update 1 Amendments 1[PSARC/2008/344FastTracktimeout 06/03/2008]
In-reply-to: <483DBF71.EB1B9205@nrubsig.org>
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To: Roland Mainz <roland.mainz@nrubsig.org>
Cc: Joseph Kowalski <jek3@sun.com>,
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Roland Mainz wrote:
> Garrett D'Amore wrote:
>   
>> Joseph Kowalski wrote:
>>     
>>> Garrett D'Amore wrote:
>>>       
> [snip]
>   
>>> I've not heard from any other ARC members that they feel strongly
>>> about this.  That doesn't mean they don't; we often just let the
>>> poster of the initial request continue to discuss.
>>>
>>> However, this is starting to sound like a lone voice here.
>>>
>>> Do other ARC members believe this is significant and we should
>>> continue discussing this?
>>>
>>> (I actually agree with Garrett's suggestion. However, Roland seemed to
>>> not accept this *suggestion*, so I think we should just drop it.)
>>>       
>> That's fine.  I offered to help as well if they wanted to follow my
>> suggestion.
>>
>> That said I don't want to suddenly have new functionality show up as
>> part of *this* case -- e.g. the HTTP functionality to which Roland was
>> alluding.  If there were an attempt to grow that new functionality in
>> *this case*, then I'd derail.
>>     
>
> Erm... why ? The /usr/lib/shell/ directory is _private_ - how we
> populate it (and "when") is AFAIK only a question for code review and
> not for the ARC case. Technically I have content for the directory but I
> wanted to wait until "shcomp" is available on the build machines (which
> needs usually five or more Nevada builds counting from our current
> putback to avoid the _pain_ for build machine admins caused by a "flag
> day").
>   

Because *that* material is not related for this case.  If you want to 
have *another* case to add that material, you could probably do so 
without contention.

I don't think its fair to say "project private" and leave various turds 
throughout the filesystem.  If *really* want a project private 
directory, it would be better to select a truly project-specific name 
like "/usr/lib/ksh93/"  or 
"/usr/lib/somecool-project-that-needs-lib-storage", and don't even take 
the time to bring it to ARC.  (Probably an item for CTeam review only at 
that point, I think.)

In fact, if you are only providing private content, without any intent 
to export functionality to other consumers, why do you want a common 
directory for it?  Why not just stick whatever files you need in either 
/usr/lib or /usr/share (as appropriate)?

>   
>> I will let the matter drop unless the submitter wants to follow my
>> suggestion (in which case my offer of help stands), or the submitter
>> takes the inadvisable action of trying to suddenly increase the scope of
>> this case by adding a bunch of new unrelated functionality into the
>> /usr/lib/shell directory.
>>     
>
> The scope of the case includes /usr/lib/shell/ with _private_ content.
> The description of the hiearacial shell function library was only
> thought as a short description/justification why we want this directory.
>   

Okay, it sounds like you don't want to run it as a separate case.   I 
can't say I'm thrilled by that, but neither am I upset enough to do 
anything about it.

    -- Garrett


From roland.mainz@nrubsig.org Wed May 28 13:37:00 2008
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Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 22:36:08 +0200
From: Roland Mainz <roland.mainz@nrubsig.org>
Subject: Re: 2008/344 [ksh93 Integration Update 1 Amendments 1]
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To: Joseph Kowalski <jek3@sun.com>
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Joseph Kowalski wrote:
> Roland Mainz wrote:
> > Joseph Kowalski wrote:
> >> Glenn Skinner wrote:
[snip]
> >> I read it as "we don't integrate '-' versions into Solaris".  Did I
> >> guess right?
> >>
> >
> > Grumpf... IMO it depends what the '-' means - see
> > http://mail.opensolaris.org/pipermail/ksh93-integration-discuss/2008-May/006127.html
> > for the testing we do right now for ksh93...
> 
> Testing isn't the issue.
> 
> By assigning the '-' suffix the community is asserting "not ready for
> prime time".  We should believe them and not consider integration into
> the OpenSolaris trunk.  This seems very obvious to me.  I would guess
> that the community wouldn't flinch about changing an interface which
> first appeared in a '-' release.  Seems the reason for having such releases.
> 
> Perhaps this is a C-team issue, more than an ARC issue, but regardless,
> such integrations should not occur.

Erm... two items:
1. B72 integrated ksh93 version "s-" (which was an "alpha" version, too)
- and for the first attempt it was AFAIK quite good. And the upcoming
ksh93t- will be "better" since we learned from our mistakes.
2. Looking at the number of bugs open in bugster and other problems I
think we can't wait much longer. ksh93t+ will likely not be available
before mid-2009. We're simply running out of time - that's why we
invested the whole last month with testing ksh93t- and making sure it is
fully functional and bug-free.

----

Bye,
Roland

-- 
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From roland.mainz@nrubsig.org Wed May 28 13:41:17 2008
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Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 22:41:02 +0200
From: Roland Mainz <roland.mainz@nrubsig.org>
Subject: Re: ksh93 Integration Update 1 Amendments 1 [PSARC/2008/344
 FastTracktimeout06/03/2008]
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To: Joseph Kowalski <jek3@sun.com>
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Joseph Kowalski wrote:
> Roland Mainz wrote:
> >> If not, you might consider running that as a separate fast track.
> >
> > Why ? The directory is explcitly marked as "project private" for now.
> > AFAIK we don't have to notify ARC about further activities there until
> > we start making ARC contracts or open the interfaces there...
> >
> Not a big thing, but we've not created empty private directories.
> 
> Its the "Cement Truck Syndrome".  If Roland gets hit by a cement
> truck, we are left with an empty "turd".

1. I do not want to be hit by a cement truck.
2. The ksh93-integration project has two leaders, e.g April Chin and /me
and David Korn and Glenn Fowler are there, too.

> Like I said, its not a big thing,... but then again, its also not a big
> thing to create it at "first use".

Grumpf... so I just populate it now...
... is usr/src/lib/shell/ Ok as name for the sources (usr/src/libshell/
is already occupied by something else) ?

----

Bye,
Roland

-- 
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From gdamore@sun.com Wed May 28 13:42:53 2008
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Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 13:35:37 -0700
From: "Garrett D'Amore" <gdamore@sun.com>
Subject: Re: 2008/344 [ksh93 Integration Update 1 Amendments 1]
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Roland Mainz wrote:
>
> Erm... two items:
> 1. B72 integrated ksh93 version "s-" (which was an "alpha" version, too)
> - and for the first attempt it was AFAIK quite good. And the upcoming
> ksh93t- will be "better" since we learned from our mistakes.
> 2. Looking at the number of bugs open in bugster and other problems I
> think we can't wait much longer. ksh93t+ will likely not be available
> before mid-2009. We're simply running out of time - that's why we
> invested the whole last month with testing ksh93t- and making sure it is
> fully functional and bug-free.
>   

It sounds like you've done some good work mitigating the risks.

I do have two questions though.

1) What criteria does the upstream source use before deciding a version 
can drop the "-"?  And, perhaps more importantly, why is the testing 
you've been doing not sufficient to warrant that?

2) What kinds of changes other than bug fixes can we expect between the 
"-" release, and the version without the "-"?  Are there any 
compatibility assumptions that can be made?

Put another way, I'm more concerned about incompatible changes impacting 
scripts, than I am about quality (given that it seems like you've done a 
lot to ensure that quality concerns are addressed.)

    -- Garrett


From Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com Wed May 28 13:46:12 2008
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Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 13:46:08 -0700
From: Alan Coopersmith <Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com>
Subject: Re: ksh93 Integration Update 1 Amendments 1 [PSARC/2008/344
 FastTracktimeout06/03/2008]
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Roland Mainz wrote:
> ... is usr/src/lib/shell/ Ok as name for the sources (usr/src/libshell/
> is already occupied by something else) ?

That's between your project and the C-Team who owns the gate.
ARC's don't do code review or source tree layout.

-- 
	-Alan Coopersmith-           alan.coopersmith@sun.com
	 Sun Microsystems, Inc. - X Window System Engineering


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Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 22:52:01 +0200
From: Roland Mainz <roland.mainz@nrubsig.org>
Subject: Re: ksh93 Integration Update 1 Amendments 1
 [PSARC/2008/344FastTracktimeout 06/03/2008]
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To: "Garrett D'Amore" <gdamore@sun.com>
Cc: Joseph Kowalski <jek3@sun.com>, Darren J Moffat <Darren.Moffat@sun.com>,
        Alan Coopersmith <Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com>, PSARC-ext@sun.com
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Garrett D'Amore wrote:
> Joseph Kowalski wrote:
> > Is this one of those FOSS cases we are supposed to not get too deep into
> > polishing the edges?
> 
> I don't think so.  ksh93 is more intrinsically becoming a core
> component, that we build our system upon.  It has a non-External
> commitment.  Therefore, I believe it deserves reasonable review.
> Furthermore, from past experience, it seems that the project team and
> even the upstream sources have been cooperative in making reasonable
> changes required for Solaris.  And sometimes, maybe even we can benefit
> the wider ksh93 audience -- I think at least one of the issues at stake
> here impacts all ksh93 on all platforms, not just Solaris. :-)
> 
> (I guess, IMO, I feel like the ksh93 project is more like a friendly
> peer project -- akin perhaps to something like Java or the C compilers
> -- than an FOSS project where we are nothing more than a strict
> consumer.  If the ksh93 folks think differently, I'd like to hear so.)

Technically I agree... but please note that both David Korn and Glenn
Folwer have veto rights and reject stuff for their codebase and that the
ksh93-integration project has "we don't fork the ksh93 code" as one of
it's _major_ goals (learning out of the _painfull_ experience that
Solaris's ksh88 codebase was literally hacked to death and making that
ksh88 interpreter partially incompatible to ksh88 versions on other Unix
versions. That's the reason why we have the ksh93 test suite fully
integrated into OS/Net and even _ship_ it so customers can see
themselves that we honor that gurantee).
We want to pass the ksh93 test suite as defined by upstream to make sure
ksh93 scripts written for one platform can run on Solaris, too (and
ksh93 scripts written for Solaris may be able to run on other platforms
like Linux or Win32/SFU/Cygwin, too). In a similar manner we want to
pass the POSIX shell test suite and we do not want to break it and even
reject any changes which would cause such breakage (I'm currently even
preparing an ARC case which says that the POSIX shell parts of ksh93 are
a "commited" (!!) interface (which partially aims at Indiana where the
goal would be that /usr/bin/sh is a POSIX shell (that's the same goal as
the Linux/LSB folks aim at with "bash" in POSIX mode and "dash")) -
which mean that authors who only rely on features defined by the POSIX
shell standard can rely on working on an interface with "commited"
stability).

----

Bye,
Roland

-- 
  __ .  . __
 (o.\ \/ /.o) roland.mainz@nrubsig.org
  \__\/\/__/  MPEG specialist, C&&JAVA&&Sun&&Unix programmer
  /O /==\ O\  TEL +49 641 7950090
 (;O/ \/ \O;)

From roland.mainz@nrubsig.org Wed May 28 14:04:04 2008
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Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 23:03:32 +0200
From: Roland Mainz <roland.mainz@nrubsig.org>
Subject: Re: 2008/344 [ksh93 Integration Update 1 Amendments 1]
Sender: gisburn@jupiterb48.nrubsig.org
To: Glenn Skinner <glenn.skinner@sun.com>
Cc: PSARC-ext@sun.com, Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com
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Glenn Skinner wrote:
> Glenn Skinner wrote:
> > Glenn Skinner wrote:
[snip
> > If the project team wishes to retain the existing stability
> > classification, that's their prerogative; they'll have chosen to
> > assume the risk of violating the stability classification's guarantees
> > (and presumably will have a strategy for mitigating the risk).
> 
> Erm... what does that mean ?
> 
> It means that you can choose to leave ksh's stability classification
> (for ARC purposes) unchanged, and (I think) have done so.  To go along
> with that choice, you've decided that extensive testing is sufficient
> to uphold the guarantees that are implicit in that choice of stability
> level.  (That's the mitigation strategy I was talking about.)
> 
> That's enough to address my concern.

Ok... :-)

----

Bye,
Roland

-- 
  __ .  . __
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From carlsonj@phorcys.east.sun.com Wed May 28 14:05:41 2008
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Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 16:57:49 -0400
From: James Carlson <james.d.carlson@sun.com>
Subject: Re: ksh93 Integration Update 1 Amendments 1 [PSARC/2008/344
 FastTracktimeout06/03/2008]
In-reply-to: <483DC35E.3F17A8A2@nrubsig.org>
To: Roland Mainz <roland.mainz@nrubsig.org>
Cc: Joseph Kowalski <jek3@sun.com>, "Garrett D'Amore" <gdamore@sun.com>,
        Alan Coopersmith <Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com>, PSARC-ext@sun.com
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Roland Mainz writes:
> Joseph Kowalski wrote:
> > Its the "Cement Truck Syndrome".  If Roland gets hit by a cement
> > truck, we are left with an empty "turd".
> 
> 1. I do not want to be hit by a cement truck.
> 2. The ksh93-integration project has two leaders, e.g April Chin and /me
> and David Korn and Glenn Fowler are there, too.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that you would want to be hit by a
truck or anything related to that.  And, no, the number of people
involved or their standing in the community or world doesn't matter.

The simple fact of life that Joe was trying to describe here is that
people and thus whole project teams sometimes go away.  They do so for
a variety of reasons -- including redirecting the project to new
goals, "finishing" the original goals, individuals finding new tasks
or jobs or careers, and, yes, inevitably, leaving the mortal coil.

When that happens, for any reason, they leave behind whatever things
they'd half-finished.

It's not possible to predict these events.  Thus, there's a bias
towards adding new things to the system *only* when you actually
*need* them.  Not when you think you might use them in the future, or
can imagine others doing so with future projects, but rather when
there's some immediate dependency that can be expressed.

The alternative is to let projects (over time) contribute little
"turds" to the system: things that aren't actually used, and perhaps
should never be used, and that serve only to confuse the unwary.

In this case, I think the email flood is (somewhat predictably) well
in excess of the importance of the actual issue under discussion, so
I'd like to see the thread die.  It needs to be Godwin'd.

-- 
James Carlson, Solaris Networking              <james.d.carlson@sun.com>
Sun Microsystems / 35 Network Drive        71.232W   Vox +1 781 442 2084
MS UBUR02-212 / Burlington MA 01803-2757   42.496N   Fax +1 781 442 1677

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Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 23:22:38 +0200
From: Roland Mainz <roland.mainz@nrubsig.org>
Subject: Re: Seperate ARC case for /usr/lib/shell/ ... ? / Re: ksh93Integration
 Update 1 Amendments 1 [PSARC/2008/344FastTracktimeout06/03/2008]
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Garrett D'Amore wrote:
> Roland Mainz wrote:
> > Joseph Kowalski wrote:
> >> Garrett D'Amore wrote:
[snip]
> > Erm... I'm just answering the ARC emails out of sync and I'm simply not
> > fast enought to answer all emails ASAP (around seven emails are already
> > in the drafts folder but I'm a slow email writer and usually need lots
> > of time...) ...
> > ... we can move the /usr/lib/shell/ stuff out into a seperate ARC case
> > to make it simpler but the content would be the same - we add
> > /usr/lib/shell/, it's private and we run an experiment there which is
> > private until we open it for the public... and then my question is: Why
> > should we make a seperate ARC case if the content of the case is the
> > same ?
> 
> The reason is to allow the cases to be reviewed, and approved separately.
> 
> If there were some kind of technical linkage or dependency, then sure,
> keeping them together might make sense.  But IIUC that's not case.
> 
> (Put another way, why not have the EOF of SoundBlaster Pro support also
> bundled in this case?  Answer:  Because there is little or no overlap or
> relation.)

... but this case is about updating a shell... why does the
/usr/lib/shell/ stuff not "fit" into this case ?

> I'm also of the believe that the /usr/lib/shell case really should
> probably wait until you have a consumer for it.  Putting out a project
> private directory with nothing in it really doesn't serve us much good, IMO.

1. Techinically the first consumer would be the "man-write" project -
but that codebase is design to avoid triggering an ARC case. We just rip
the code for "man" and "catman" out and replace it with something which
is easier to maintain. But if we move the /usr/lib/shell/ stuff to that
case then we trigger an ARC case and that was the thing we tried to
avoid...
2. When JAVA started long ago they didn't had any consumers for their
classes - why can't we start the same way for /usr/lib/shell/ and just
provide some modules (based on some wishlists and the RFEs we have) and
evolve them as part of the tree and not outside ?

> Anyway, if you want to separate it out, send me a document with those
> bits pruned out, and I'll go ahead and submit them whenever you're ready
> for me to.

Uhm... lets continue the discussion on IRC, Ok (I'll be there at
~~1:00AM MET (after I found some food)) ?

----

Bye,
Roland

-- 
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From roland.mainz@nrubsig.org Wed May 28 14:26:20 2008
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Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 23:25:29 +0200
From: Roland Mainz <roland.mainz@nrubsig.org>
Subject: Re: Extending ARC tiemout to Monday ? / Re: ksh93 Integration Update
 1Amendments 1 [PSARC/2008/344 FastTracktimeout 06/03/2008]
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Alan Coopersmith wrote:
> Roland Mainz wrote:
> > Alan Coopersmith wrote:
> >> Garrett D'Amore wrote:
> >>> Are you using (populating) anything in /usr/shell as part of this case?
> >>>
> >>> If not, you might consider running that as a separate fast track.
> >> Without that portion, this case is pretty much an automatic-approval case
> >> to upgrade to the latest upstream, but since the project team wanted to do
> >> both at once, I saw no harm in having a combined fast track.
> >
> > Erm... since April don't have time to work on the code until Monday we
> > can change the timeout to Friday (or Monday) ...
> 
> PSARC decided today to let the original timer continue to run since the
> case is still under discussion - that's running until Tuesday, June 3
> already - do you mean to extend it beyond that until Friday, June 6 or
> Monday June 9?

I was thinking about Friday, 30.5.2008 to avoid making the codebase a
"running target" for the code reviewers because the ARC case is not
finished (Tuesday, 3.6.2008 is Ok, too... but that's IMO the upper limit
since we're running into other timing issues).

----

Bye,
Roland

-- 
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Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 23:27:18 +0200
From: Roland Mainz <roland.mainz@nrubsig.org>
Subject: Re: 2008/344 [ksh93 Integration Update 1 Amendments 1]
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To: Alan Coopersmith <Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com>, John Beck <jbeck@eng.sun.com>
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Alan Coopersmith wrote:
> Garrett D'Amore wrote:
> > It may be helpful for persons observing this, as well as the project
> > team, to understand that Solaris integrations always need to conform to
> > a "release ready" rule.  That is, we don't integrate software that
> > aren't comfortable including in a full release, as that software exists
> > *at the time of integration*.
> 
> I don't believe that's the actual rule - I know the ON consolidation has
> that as a rough goal, but integrations of beta versions are explicitly
> allowed in other consolidations, and I'm not sure where the ON rule banning
> it would be written down.

AFAIK the gatekeeper (John Beck) has the final authority on that, right
?

----

Bye,
Roland

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From jek3@sun.com Wed May 28 14:31:26 2008
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Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 11:33:27 -1000
From: Joseph Kowalski <jek3@sun.com>
Subject: Re: ksh93 Integration Update 1 Amendments 1 [PSARC/2008/344
 FastTracktimeout06/03/2008]
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To: Roland Mainz <roland.mainz@nrubsig.org>
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Roland Mainz wrote:
> 1. I do not want to be hit by a cement truck.
> 2. The ksh93-integration project has two leaders, e.g April Chin and /me
> and David Korn and Glenn Fowler are there, too.
>   

I guess I got to cute (but I believe this is a common phrase).

We don't want the project team to not complete the next phase leaving an
empty directory behind.

Just to be cute again (I never learn, do I?), this is also characterized as
"the heartbreak of phase 2".  It often happens that phase 2 never happens.

>> Like I said, its not a big thing,... but then again, its also not a big
>> thing to create it at "first use".
>>     
>
> Grumpf... so I just populate it now...
> ... is usr/src/lib/shell/ Ok as name for the sources (usr/src/libshell/
> is already occupied by something else) ?
>   

The ARC doesn't consider source locations.

- jek3


From jbeck@eng.sun.com Wed May 28 14:45:03 2008
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This has gotten way off the track of architectural review, so I have moved
psarc-ext to the blind copy list.


Garrett> ... Solaris integrations always need to conform to a "release ready"
Garrett> rule.  That is, we don't integrate software that aren't comfortable
Garrett> including in a full release, as that software exists *at the time of
Garrett> integration*.

Alan> I don't believe that's the actual rule - I know the ON consolidation has
Alan> that as a rough goal, but integrations of beta versions are explicitly
Alan> allowed in other consolidations, and I'm not sure where the ON rule
Alan> banning it would be written down.

Roland> AFAIK the gatekeeper (John Beck) has the final authority on that,
Roland> right ?

No, I am the ON C-team tech lead, not the gatekeeper, the difference being
that the gatekeeper enforces the rules (think a state's attorney general)
whereas the tech lead helps set the rules (think a governor).  And as Alan
noted there are different consolidations (the "C" in C-team) that make up
the WOS, and this issue is one where different "states" have different rules
rather than there being a single overriding "federal" rule.

In ON's case, we have a fair amount of software that we get from outside
(sendmail, Perl, BIND) and we generally only revise those modules in a way
that corresponds to release boundaries of the external module.  I.e., I
never putback sendmail Alpha or Beta versions, only "final" versions.  My
experience is that Perl, BIND et al. have been dealt with in the same manner
though I could not swear that has been true for every external module for
the entire history of ON.

In this case, we (the ON C-team) would want to know how stable the module
in question is, what would be gained or lost by taking it now as opposed to
waiting until a "released" version, etc.  Then we would make a judgement call
once we had all the facts in front of us.

Meanwhile, can we please stop diving into rat-holes and instead concentrate
on the high-level architecture?

-- John

http://blogs.sun.com/jbeck

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Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 00:12:13 +0200
From: Roland Mainz <roland.mainz@nrubsig.org>
Subject: Re: 2008/344 [ksh93 Integration Update 1 Amendments 1]
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To: Glenn Skinner <glenn.skinner@sun.com>
Cc: PSARC-ext@sun.com, Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com
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Glenn Skinner wrote:
[snip]
> > ## Part 1.1: Update of ksh93
> > The 1.1 portion of this project is the update of ksh93 from
> > ast-ksh.2007-12-15 to ast-ksh-2008-05-22 which marks the update
> > from ksh93 version 's+' to version 't-' (AST/ksh93 uses the
> > (latin) alphabet for its version number, e.g.  version 'a',
> > version 'b' etc.  ; the '+'/'-' means the stabilty status, e.g.
> > '-' means its "alpha", no suffix means its "stable" (e.g.  ready
> > for production usage) and '+' means its a bugfixed stable version
> > etc.).
> 
> Are we to infer from this nomenclature description that ksh's
> stability level is decreasing as part of this case?

No, the '+'/''/'-' stuff refers to the upstream version we're using, not
the ARC stabilty level (and see my other email about the tests we use to
gurantee that the "alpha" version of ksh93 is stable enougth for
production usage).

----

Bye,
Roland

-- 
  __ .  . __
 (o.\ \/ /.o) roland.mainz@nrubsig.org
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 (;O/ \/ \O;)

From Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com Wed May 28 15:19:48 2008
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Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 15:19:45 -0700
From: Alan Coopersmith <Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com>
Subject: Re: Extending ARC tiemout to Monday ? / Re: ksh93 Integration Update
 1Amendments 1 [PSARC/2008/344 FastTracktimeout 06/03/2008]
In-reply-to: <483DCDC9.B73577F1@nrubsig.org>
Sender: Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com
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Cc: "Garrett D'Amore" <gdamore@sun.com>, PSARC-ext@sun.com
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Roland Mainz wrote:
> I was thinking about Friday, 30.5.2008 to avoid making the codebase a
> "running target" for the code reviewers because the ARC case is not
> finished (Tuesday, 3.6.2008 is Ok, too... but that's IMO the upper limit
> since we're running into other timing issues).

Since it's already running until June 3, I'll just leave the timeout unchanged
then.

-- 
	-Alan Coopersmith-           alan.coopersmith@sun.com
	 Sun Microsystems, Inc. - X Window System Engineering


From roland.mainz@nrubsig.org Wed May 28 15:26:15 2008
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Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 00:26:04 +0200
From: Roland Mainz <roland.mainz@nrubsig.org>
Subject: Shell style guide... / was: Re: [ksh93-integration-discuss] ksh93
 Integration Update 1 Amendments1 [PSARC/2008/344 FastTrack timeout 06/03/2008]
Sender: gisburn@jupiterb48.nrubsig.org
To: "I. Szczesniak" <iszczesniak@gmail.com>
Cc: Korn Shell 93 integration/migration project discussion
 <ksh93-integration-discuss@opensolaris.org>,
        PSARC-ext@sun.com, Alan Coopersmith <Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com>
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"I. Szczesniak" wrote:
> On 5/28/08, Garrett D'Amore <gdamore@sun.com> wrote:
[snip]
> >  for either new
> >  names in the language, or to reserve it for script author use (e.g.
> >  names with a certain prefix are guaranteed to be "safe".)
> 
> It was always good practice to avoid C language keywords in shell
> scripts. Quoting the Opensolaris programming style guide:
> Do not use function names which are reserved keywords (or function
> names) in C/C++/JAVA or the POSIX shell standard (to avoid confusion
> and/or future changes/updates to the shell language).

Erm... note that http://www.opensolaris.org/os/project/shell/shellstyle/
was never signed-off as new shell style guide for OS/Net by the OS/Net C
team or gatekeepers. Right now it has more the level of "suggestions
what may be nice/wise to-do to avoid trouble or to make your scripts
more portable and faster". It may be nice to get the old OS/net
styleguide replaced with it but that requires more discussion in
on-discuss@opensolaris.org

----

Bye,
Roland

-- 
  __ .  . __
 (o.\ \/ /.o) roland.mainz@nrubsig.org
  \__\/\/__/  MPEG specialist, C&&JAVA&&Sun&&Unix programmer
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 (;O/ \/ \O;)

From roland.mainz@nrubsig.org Wed May 28 15:27:36 2008
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Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 00:27:25 +0200
From: Roland Mainz <roland.mainz@nrubsig.org>
Subject: Re: [ksh93-integration-discuss] ksh93 Integration Update 1 Amendments1
 [PSARC/2008/344 FastTrack timeout 06/03/2008]
Sender: gisburn@jupiterb48.nrubsig.org
To: John Plocher <John.Plocher@sun.com>
Cc: "I. Szczesniak" <iszczesniak@gmail.com>,
        Korn Shell 93 integration/migration project discussion
 <ksh93-integration-discuss@opensolaris.org>,
        PSARC-ext@sun.com, Alan Coopersmith <Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com>
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John Plocher wrote:
> I. Szczesniak wrote:
> > It was always good practice to avoid C language keywords in shell
> > scripts. Quoting the Opensolaris programming style guide:
> > Do not use function names which are reserved keywords (or function
> > names) in C/C++/JAVA or the POSIX shell standard (to avoid confusion
> > and/or future changes/updates to the shell language).
> 
> And that may be good enough to serve as the last word on this topic :-)

Mhhh... while thinking about Irek's comment...
... can we do "recommendations" in an ARC case (not strict rules... more
being "suggestions") ?

----

Bye,
Roland

-- 
  __ .  . __
 (o.\ \/ /.o) roland.mainz@nrubsig.org
  \__\/\/__/  MPEG specialist, C&&JAVA&&Sun&&Unix programmer
  /O /==\ O\  TEL +49 641 7950090
 (;O/ \/ \O;)

From jek3@sun.com Wed May 28 15:37:09 2008
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Subject: Re: 2008/344 [ksh93 Integration Update 1 Amendments 1]
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Roland Mainz wrote:
> No, the '+'/''/'-' stuff refers to the upstream version we're using, not
> the ARC stabilty level (and see my other email about the tests we use to
> gurantee that the "alpha" version of ksh93 is stable enougth for
> production usage).
>   
Could you provide the definition/specification for what types of changes 
are allowed in transitioning from a '-' release to a '' release.  
Explicitly, 't-' -> 't'.

Once again, this isn't about testing or bug-counts.  Its about the 
stability of interfaces defined in a '-' release.  If these interfaces 
can't be modified (syntactically or semantically) in the transition 
between 't-' to 't', then I'm happy, but I'd like to get an unambiguous 
answer on this.  (Also, its not about what has happened in such previous 
transitions.  It's about a statement from the community stating there 
intended operating procedure.)

- jek3


From John.Plocher@sun.com Wed May 28 15:52:57 2008
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Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 15:52:50 -0700
From: John Plocher <John.Plocher@sun.com>
Subject: Re: [ksh93-integration-discuss] ksh93 Integration Update 1 Amendments1
 [PSARC/2008/344 FastTrack timeout 06/03/2008]
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To: Roland Mainz <roland.mainz@nrubsig.org>
Cc: "I. Szczesniak" <iszczesniak@gmail.com>,
        Korn Shell 93 integration/migration project discussion
 <ksh93-integration-discuss@opensolaris.org>,
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Roland Mainz wrote:
> can we do "recommendations" in an ARC case (not strict rules... more
> being "suggestions") ?

Many times those comments are simply pointing out well known
architectural requirements that may be unknown to the project
teams.

Other items are explicitly called out as TCR's (aka required
changes), and many times such things are debated by the ARC
members themselves.

Still other items are such obvious pieces of good advice that
the project team simply accepts them and incorporates them into
an updated spec.

Excluding the above, the rest of the discussion between the
project team and the ARC members is usually advice.  Sometimes
it is  obvious and good, other times it is off base and crap
(but it is always free!)

Good project teams tend to listen to this advice and cherry
pick the most important.  Inexperienced teams often misinterpret
advice as being an absolute requirement, or utterings by an ARC
member as being a formal requirement....

   -John




From roland.mainz@nrubsig.org Wed May 28 15:58:14 2008
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Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 00:58:02 +0200
From: Roland Mainz <roland.mainz@nrubsig.org>
Subject: Re: ksh93 Integration Update 1 Amendments 1 [PSARC/2008/344
 FastTracktimeout 06/03/2008]
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Garrett D'Amore wrote:
> Sorry, one more set of questions:
> > This project is an amendment to the Korn Shell 93 Integration project
> > update 1 ARC case (PSARC/2008/094) specifying the following additional
> > interfaces:
> > 1) Update of ksh93 from upstream release ast-ksh.2007-12-15 to
> >   ast-ksh-2008-05-22
> > 1.1) Update of ksh93
> > 1.2) New "typeset" variable storage qualifier for function
> > 1.3) New floating-point datatype "hexfloat" ("typeset -X varname)
> > 1.4) New reserved options for "typeset".
> > 1.5) New ksh93 math functions "ceil":
> > 1.5) New reserved builtin "enum"
> 
> As you now have created a new keyword and function name, ("ceil" and
> "enum"), what will happen to scripts that may already have used these words?

"ceil" won't cause trouble since it's a math function and right now
ksh93 has no way to define your own math functions - if you want to use
shell code in math functions you have to use $(myfunction arg1 arg2
arg3) but (( myfunction(arg1, arg2, arg3)+0.5 )) does not work (yet -
we're working a solution for that).

> Have the upstream providers given thought to dealing with changes like
> this and their impact on already-deployed scripts?  (Maybe there aren't
> any that we care about yet, since our ksh93 is still so new.)

IMO it's hard to belive that anyone uses "enum" as function name - those
who are used to write C/C++ applications have a different view of "enum"
and the possibilty that there is a shell function with the same name
(you get the same kind of problems if you define a shell function called
"typeset" in a Bourne shell script and then assume that this script runs
properly in bash/ksh88/ksh93/etc.).
BTW: In the worse case people can just delete the builtin via $ builtin
-d enum #

> I'm concerned, going forward, as ksh93 syntax becomes more prevalent,
> that bringing in changes like the above may have unintended consequences
> in scripts or even ON delivered components, which we cannot easily find
> or test.

Right... but crawling down the changelog of ksh93 I think this is the
_first_ new language-specific builtin (= which means "not bound to a
specifc path") since 1993 (David may correct me). Such additions seem to
appear rarely and AFAIK having such a thing appear every ten years can't
hurt much assuming we want that the shell langauge is allowed to evolve.
Maybe Irek's idea of making rules like
http://www.opensolaris.org/os/project/shell/shellstyle/#do_not_reserved_keywords_for_function_names
mandatory and provide something like "shlint" or "shappcert" (or a
module for "appcert") to test for such things could avoid the risk
you're worrying about... would that work ?

> It would be nice (and maybe this is advice to send upstream) if there
> was a way for script authors to be sure that their namespace was not
> going to change underneath them.   As one possible solution (and this is
> just for illustrative), imagine a flag for ksh, -N2008.05.28, which
> script authors could put in their #!/usr/bin/ksh line which ksh would
> take to mean that only the language features available in ksh version
> 2008.05.28 should be exported.
> 
> Another solution, might be to reserve some portion of the namespace
> (e.g. with a prefix identifier such as an underscore) for either new
> names in the language, or to reserve it for script author use (e.g.
> names with a certain prefix are guaranteed to be "safe".)

I don't like the flag idea because it will add massive amounts of |if()
... else ...|-code almost everywhere in the libshell codebase which will
make the code harder to maintain&&test and drains lots of performance.
And the "prefix" thing... how should that look like ? Almost everything
I can imagine looks horrible from a stylistic point of view... ;-(

I really would prefer to just say "don't use C/C++/JAVA keywords for
function names and you're safe".

----

Bye,
Roland

-- 
  __ .  . __
 (o.\ \/ /.o) roland.mainz@nrubsig.org
  \__\/\/__/  MPEG specialist, C&&JAVA&&Sun&&Unix programmer
  /O /==\ O\  TEL +49 641 7950090
 (;O/ \/ \O;)

From Darren.Moffat@sun.com Thu May 29 02:32:04 2008
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Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 10:31:45 +0100
From: Darren J Moffat <Darren.Moffat@sun.com>
Subject: Re: ksh93 Integration Update 1 Amendments 1
	[PSARC/2008/344FastTracktimeout 06/03/2008]
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I'm assuming the /usr/lib/shell discussion is still part of this case.


How does /usr/lib/shell usage compare with the existing:

	/usr/share/zsh/<version>/functions/
	/usr/share/zsh/<version>/scripts/
	/usr/share/zsh/site-functions/

Does the creation of /usr/lib/shell imply that those things that are 
currently in /usr/share/zsh should move to /usr/lib/shell/zsh ?

--
Darren J Moffat

From carlsonj@phorcys.east.sun.com Thu May 29 04:02:43 2008
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Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 06:55:03 -0400
From: James Carlson <james.d.carlson@sun.com>
Subject: Re: ksh93 Integration Update 1 Amendments 1
	[PSARC/2008/344FastTracktimeout 06/03/2008]
In-reply-to: <483E7801.7040002@Sun.COM>
To: Darren J Moffat <Darren.Moffat@sun.com>
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Darren J Moffat writes:
> How does /usr/lib/shell usage compare with the existing:
> 
> 	/usr/share/zsh/<version>/functions/
> 	/usr/share/zsh/<version>/scripts/
> 	/usr/share/zsh/site-functions/

All of the files under /usr/share/zsh are shell scripts and
architecture-independent.  They could (at least in principle) be
shared between architectures.

> Does the creation of /usr/lib/shell imply that those things that are 
> currently in /usr/share/zsh should move to /usr/lib/shell/zsh ?

Roland has already said that there'll be architecture-dependent
objects in the /usr/lib/shell directory.  That alone makes it
inappropriate for /usr/share.

(Since we don't yet have a consumer, we sort of have to take that on
faith ...)

-- 
James Carlson, Solaris Networking              <james.d.carlson@sun.com>
Sun Microsystems / 35 Network Drive        71.232W   Vox +1 781 442 2084
MS UBUR02-212 / Burlington MA 01803-2757   42.496N   Fax +1 781 442 1677

From Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de Thu May 29 04:59:14 2008
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From: Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (Joerg Schilling)
Subject: Re: [ksh93-integration-discuss] ksh93 Integration Update 1 Amendments
 1 [PSARC/2008/344 FastTrack timeout 06/03/2008]
In-reply-to: <18493.35509.225803.983454@gargle.gargle.HOWL>
To: james.d.carlson@sun.com, Darren.Moffat@sun.com
Cc: Roland.Mainz@nrubsig.org, PSARC-ext@sun.com,
        ksh93-integration-discuss@opensolaris.org, Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com
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James Carlson <james.d.carlson@sun.com> wrote:

> Darren J Moffat writes:
> > While it is ksh93 I don't think any of this really matters that much 
> > because you have to explicitly ask for ksh93.  On the other hand if this 
> > same implementation was exporting this same functionality by default 
> > when it was used as the implementation of /bin/sh I would feel very 
> > differently.  This still isn't the case to make ksh93 /usr/bin/ksh which 
> > is where I think this type of issue matters most.
>
> True enough, though, because of Indiana, we're already hacking our
> system scripts to comply with ksh93's differing requirements.

Why?

Did you thing about the fact that ksh93 is _really_ big and that people who
like to use OpenSolaris in embedded environments probably cannot use ksh93 for 
this reason? The scripts from OpenSolaris are currently writen for the Bourne 
shell and thus would run with a really small shell. Don't change code that 
works......

Jörg

-- 
 EMail:joerg@schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin
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From: Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (Joerg Schilling)
Subject: Re: ksh93 Integration Update 1 Amendments 1
 [PSARC/2008/344FastTracktimeout 06/03/2008]
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Roland Mainz <roland.mainz@nrubsig.org> wrote:

> ksh93 scripts written for one platform can run on Solaris, too (and
> ksh93 scripts written for Solaris may be able to run on other platforms
> like Linux or Win32/SFU/Cygwin, too). In a similar manner we want to

Knowing the bugs in the ksh that comes with SFU, I cannot believe that even 
simple shell scripts will run on SFU ;-)

Jörg

-- 
 EMail:joerg@schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin
       js@cs.tu-berlin.de                (uni)  
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From roland.mainz@nrubsig.org Thu May 29 06:15:39 2008
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Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 15:15:20 +0200
From: Roland Mainz <roland.mainz@nrubsig.org>
Subject: Re: 2008/344 [ksh93 Integration Update 1 Amendments 1]
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Garrett D'Amore wrote:
> Roland Mainz wrote:
> > Erm... two items:
> > 1. B72 integrated ksh93 version "s-" (which was an "alpha" version, too)
> > - and for the first attempt it was AFAIK quite good. And the upcoming
> > ksh93t- will be "better" since we learned from our mistakes.
> > 2. Looking at the number of bugs open in bugster and other problems I
> > think we can't wait much longer. ksh93t+ will likely not be available
> > before mid-2009. We're simply running out of time - that's why we
> > invested the whole last month with testing ksh93t- and making sure it is
> > fully functional and bug-free.
> 
> It sounds like you've done some good work mitigating the risks.
> 
> I do have two questions though.
> 
> 1) What criteria does the upstream source use before deciding a version
> can drop the "-"?

The switch from '-' to '' (and later '+') AFAIK means we try to avoid
adding new features. However for most existing scripts the new features
won't be a problem - the major change was the switch from ksh88 to ksh93
where David Korn explicitly broke backwards-compatibilty to get rid of
design bugs in ksh88 (AFAIK at some point he learned from the original
mistakes and made a clear cut and started from scratch with ksh93). BTW:
ksh93 means means "ksh based on the spec from 1993" - and since 1993
scripts based on this spec are usually guranteed to run (thinking about
it... "enum" may really be the first new language-specific builtin since
1993... however I prefer to hide behind
http://www.opensolaris.org/os/project/shell/shellstyle/#do_not_reserved_keywords_for_function_names).

> And, perhaps more importantly, why is the testing
> you've been doing not sufficient to warrant that?

Erm... what do you mean with that ?

> 2) What kinds of changes other than bug fixes can we expect between the
> "-" release, and the version without the "-"?

As long as it's '-' we may add features... when the '-' is gone we may
try to avoid adding features and when the tree is marked as '+' we
really try it hard to avoid adding features hard (exception may be
urgend issues which cannot be solved otherwise (or in the case of
ksh93-integration explicitly requested backports of newer features)) ...
... beyond that general statement then next big things are:
- libshell API stabilisation and find a consumer for an ARC contract to
test whether the API is complete
- thread support, e.g $ ksh93 -c 'function mythr { sleep 100 ; } ;
builtin pthread_create ; integer tid ; pthread_create -L -f mythr -t tid
; wait -T ${tid} ; exit 0' #
... but those two items won't create new builtins like "enum"

> Put another way, I'm more concerned about incompatible changes impacting
> scripts, than I am about quality (given that it seems like you've done a
> lot to ensure that quality concerns are addressed.)

See above...

----

Bye,
Roland

-- 
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Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 15:23:57 +0200
From: Roland Mainz <roland.mainz@nrubsig.org>
Subject: Re: [ksh93-integration-discuss] ksh93 Integration Update 1 Amendments1
 [PSARC/2008/344 FastTrack timeout 06/03/2008]
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Joerg Schilling wrote:
> James Carlson <james.d.carlson@sun.com> wrote:
> > Darren J Moffat writes:
> > > While it is ksh93 I don't think any of this really matters that much
> > > because you have to explicitly ask for ksh93.  On the other hand if this
> > > same implementation was exporting this same functionality by default
> > > when it was used as the implementation of /bin/sh I would feel very
> > > differently.  This still isn't the case to make ksh93 /usr/bin/ksh which
> > > is where I think this type of issue matters most.
> >
> > True enough, though, because of Indiana, we're already hacking our
> > system scripts to comply with ksh93's differing requirements.
> 
> Why?
> 
> Did you thing about the fact that ksh93 is _really_ big and that people who
> like to use OpenSolaris in embedded environments probably cannot use ksh93 for
> this reason? 

Erm... the issue is the other way around - the use of builtin commands
enables ksh93 to work much faster and with less memory (since you can
avoid awk/sed/tr/etc. completely and even avoid temporary files for
small things (e.g. stuff data into arrays, variable trees or plain
string variables)) than using Bourne shell and lots of external commands
(that's why we're (slowly) working on libbusybox.so.1, too). The startup
time of ksh93 is highter than the Bourne shell (primarily because we do
the i18n setup correctly and simply have more stuff to init at startup)
- but that "price" is quickly paid-off by simply avoiding one single
|fork()|+|exec()| sequence - beyond that ksh93 outperforms the Bourne
shell, bash, zsh, dash etc. in all benchmarks (remeber David Korn had a
slide about perforamce in his talk at the OpenSolaris May 2008 summit).

---

Bye,
Roland

-- 
  __ .  . __
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 (;O/ \/ \O;)

From roland.mainz@nrubsig.org Thu May 29 06:28:13 2008
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Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 15:27:58 +0200
From: Roland Mainz <roland.mainz@nrubsig.org>
Subject: Re: ksh93 Integration Update 1 Amendments
 1[PSARC/2008/344FastTracktimeout 06/03/2008]
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To: Joerg Schilling <Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de>
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Joerg Schilling wrote:
> Roland Mainz <roland.mainz@nrubsig.org> wrote:
> > ksh93 scripts written for one platform can run on Solaris, too (and
> > ksh93 scripts written for Solaris may be able to run on other platforms
> > like Linux or Win32/SFU/Cygwin, too). In a similar manner we want to
> 
> Knowing the bugs in the ksh that comes with SFU, I cannot believe that even
> simple shell scripts will run on SFU ;-)

Erm... please don't mix things - SFU has it's own (IMO half-broken)
ksh88 clone while I was talking about running ksh93 itself on SFU.

----

Bye,
Roland

-- 
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From roland.mainz@nrubsig.org Thu May 29 06:28:57 2008
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Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 15:28:46 +0200
From: Roland Mainz <roland.mainz@nrubsig.org>
Subject: Re: Extending ARC tiemout to Monday ? / Re: ksh93 Integration
 Update1Amendments 1 [PSARC/2008/344 FastTracktimeout 06/03/2008]
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To: Alan Coopersmith <Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com>
Cc: "Garrett D'Amore" <gdamore@sun.com>, PSARC-ext@sun.com
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Alan Coopersmith wrote:
> Roland Mainz wrote:
> > I was thinking about Friday, 30.5.2008 to avoid making the codebase a
> > "running target" for the code reviewers because the ARC case is not
> > finished (Tuesday, 3.6.2008 is Ok, too... but that's IMO the upper limit
> > since we're running into other timing issues).
> 
> Since it's already running until June 3, I'll just leave the timeout unchanged
> then.

Ok...

----

Bye,
Roland

-- 
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From Darren.Moffat@sun.com Thu May 29 07:11:39 2008
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Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 15:11:13 +0100
From: Darren J Moffat <Darren.Moffat@sun.com>
Subject: Re: ksh93 Integration Update 1 Amendments 1
	[PSARC/2008/344FastTracktimeout 06/03/2008]
In-reply-to: <18494.35719.862963.782498@gargle.gargle.HOWL>
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To: James Carlson <James.D.Carlson@sun.com>
Cc: Roland Mainz <roland.mainz@nrubsig.org>, PSARC-ext@sun.com,
        Alan Coopersmith <Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com>
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James Carlson wrote:
> Darren J Moffat writes:
>> How does /usr/lib/shell usage compare with the existing:
>>
>> 	/usr/share/zsh/<version>/functions/
>> 	/usr/share/zsh/<version>/scripts/
>> 	/usr/share/zsh/site-functions/
> 
> All of the files under /usr/share/zsh are shell scripts and
> architecture-independent.  They could (at least in principle) be
> shared between architectures.
> 
>> Does the creation of /usr/lib/shell imply that those things that are 
>> currently in /usr/share/zsh should move to /usr/lib/shell/zsh ?
> 
> Roland has already said that there'll be architecture-dependent
> objects in the /usr/lib/shell directory.  That alone makes it
> inappropriate for /usr/share.

I think you missed the point I was trying to make it wasn't a /usr/share 
vs /usr/lib distinction but the fact that there is already a system wide 
place for zsh "extensions/plugins/whatever" yet this case appears to be 
suggesting that /usr/lib/shell/zsh would be that place.  Zsh has already 
staked out some of its ground.  Similarly we already have 
/usr/lib/python. On the other hand we have /usr/perl and /usr/ruby/ and 
both /usr/java and /usr/share/lib/java :-(

Or let me ask this another way.  Given that all the shells are upstream 
from OpenSolaris and that they may or may not already have some "system 
wide" area what is it that we are actually trying to do with 
/usr/lib/shell ?  Is /usr/lib/shell really /usr/lib/ksh ?

What architectural value is /usr/lib/shell/ adding what are the rules 
for putting something in there versus the shells own system wide area? 
Is it really /usr/lib/shell or /usr/lib/ksh93/ ?   Until we have some 
real examples or a real need I don't see that this is generic to *all* 
shells and is more likely specific to some class of shells maybe which 
might be just ksh93.

Last but not least what is a shell ? would /usr/lib/shell/python be 
allowed ?


-- 
Darren J Moffat

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Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 17:03:36 +0200
From: Chris Pickett <pkchris@users.sourceforge.net>
Subject: Re: [ksh93-integration-discuss] ksh93 Integration Update 1 Amendments
 1 [PSARC/2008/344FastTracktimeout 06/03/2008]
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On 5/29/08, Darren J Moffat <Darren.Moffat@sun.com> wrote:
> James Carlson wrote:
>  > Darren J Moffat writes:
>  >> How does /usr/lib/shell usage compare with the existing:
>  >>
>  >>      /usr/share/zsh/<version>/functions/
>  >>      /usr/share/zsh/<version>/scripts/
>  >>      /usr/share/zsh/site-functions/
>  >
>  > All of the files under /usr/share/zsh are shell scripts and
>  > architecture-independent.  They could (at least in principle) be
>  > shared between architectures.
>  >
>  >> Does the creation of /usr/lib/shell imply that those things that are
>  >> currently in /usr/share/zsh should move to /usr/lib/shell/zsh ?
>  >
>  > Roland has already said that there'll be architecture-dependent
>  > objects in the /usr/lib/shell directory.  That alone makes it
>  > inappropriate for /usr/share.
>
>
> I think you missed the point I was trying to make it wasn't a /usr/share
>  vs /usr/lib distinction but the fact that there is already a system wide
>  place for zsh "extensions/plugins/whatever" yet this case appears to be
>  suggesting that /usr/lib/shell/zsh would be that place.  Zsh has already
>  staked out some of its ground.  Similarly we already have
>  /usr/lib/python. On the other hand we have /usr/perl and /usr/ruby/ and
>  both /usr/java and /usr/share/lib/java :-(
>
>  Or let me ask this another way.  Given that all the shells are upstream
>  from OpenSolaris and that they may or may not already have some "system
>  wide" area what is it that we are actually trying to do with
>  /usr/lib/shell ?  Is /usr/lib/shell really /usr/lib/ksh ?
>
>  What architectural value is /usr/lib/shell/ adding what are the rules
>  for putting something in there versus the shells own system wide area?
>  Is it really /usr/lib/shell or /usr/lib/ksh93/ ?   Until we have some
>  real examples or a real need I don't see that this is generic to *all*
>  shells and is more likely specific to some class of shells maybe which
>  might be just ksh93.
>
>  Last but not least what is a shell ? would /usr/lib/shell/python be
>  allowed ?

Don't. Be. Silly.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UNIX_shell

Unless python starts calling itself a shell it isn't one.

Chris
-- 
    ^---^
   (@)v(@)  Chris Pickett
   |    /   IT consultant
 ===m==m=== pkchris@users.sourceforge.net

From John.Plocher@sun.com Thu May 29 08:39:18 2008
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Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 08:39:09 -0700
From: John Plocher <John.Plocher@sun.com>
Subject: Re: [ksh93-integration-discuss] ksh93 Integration Update 1 Amendments
 1 [PSARC/2008/344FastTracktimeout 06/03/2008]
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Chris Pickett wrote:
>>  Last but not least what is a shell ? would /usr/lib/shell/python be
>>  allowed ?
> 
> Don't. Be. Silly.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UNIX_shell
> 
> Unless python starts calling itself a shell it isn't one.

What "libraries written in a scripting language" have to do
with "shell" is exactly the point.  Python is a scripting
language, it has reusable libraries, people are reputed to
have written useful things in it, and, like Tom Christianson
and Perl, I'm sure someone has actually tried using the Python
interpreter as their login shell at least once :-)

Given Roland's suggested usage model (a place to put compiled
ksh93 scripting language libraries for use by others), the name
he chose for the directory (.../shell) seems to be too generic,
and thus out of place.

   -John

From roland.mainz@nrubsig.org Thu May 29 09:04:21 2008
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Subject: Re: ksh93 Integration Update 1 Amendments
 1[PSARC/2008/344FastTracktimeout 06/03/2008]
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Darren J Moffat wrote:
> James Carlson wrote:
> > Darren J Moffat writes:
> >> How does /usr/lib/shell usage compare with the existing:
> >>
> >>      /usr/share/zsh/<version>/functions/
> >>      /usr/share/zsh/<version>/scripts/
> >>      /usr/share/zsh/site-functions/
> >
> > All of the files under /usr/share/zsh are shell scripts and
> > architecture-independent.  They could (at least in principle) be
> > shared between architectures.
> >
> >> Does the creation of /usr/lib/shell imply that those things that are
> >> currently in /usr/share/zsh should move to /usr/lib/shell/zsh ?
> >
> > Roland has already said that there'll be architecture-dependent
> > objects in the /usr/lib/shell directory.  That alone makes it
> > inappropriate for /usr/share.
> 
> I think you missed the point I was trying to make it wasn't a /usr/share
> vs /usr/lib distinction but the fact that there is already a system wide
> place for zsh "extensions/plugins/whatever" yet this case appears to be
> suggesting that /usr/lib/shell/zsh would be that place.  Zsh has already
> staked out some of its ground.  Similarly we already have
> /usr/lib/python. On the other hand we have /usr/perl and /usr/ruby/ and
> both /usr/java and /usr/share/lib/java :-(
> 
> Or let me ask this another way.  Given that all the shells are upstream
> from OpenSolaris and that they may or may not already have some "system
> wide" area what is it that we are actually trying to do with
> /usr/lib/shell ?  Is /usr/lib/shell really /usr/lib/ksh ?

No, the idea is to have a common location with DNS-like hiearcy for
shell functions and allow that we may have a common directory for shell
functions in the POSIX shell syntax - which could then be shared by
multiple shell interpreters. For example we could have:
/usr/lib/shell/sh/org/opensolaris/util/fileattr/getfilesize which can be
shared between ksh93, bash and zsh. Another example is the "shell
curses" package which could exists under:
/usr/lib/shell/ksh/com/ibm/term/shellcurses # for ksh93 and 
/usr/lib/shell/zsh/com/ibm/term/shellcurses # for zsh

One imporant item I forgot (which came up during yesterday's IRC
discussion) is that we try to allow access to the modules without using
abolute paths, e.g. we could define something ${.sh.funclib} which
points to /usr/lib/shell/ksh/ and a shell could then use
FPATH+="${.sh.funclib}/com/ibm/term/shellcurses" to access the shell
curses packages or
FPATH+="${.sh.funclib}../sh/org/opensolaris/util/fileattr/getfilesize"
to access the "util/fileattr/getfilesize" function... or
FPATH+=:${.sh.funclib}../sh/org/opensolaris/util/fileattr/* to access
all modules in sh/org/opensolaris/util/fileattr/*

> What architectural value is /usr/lib/shell/ adding what are the rules
> for putting something in there versus the shells own system wide area?
> Is it really /usr/lib/shell or /usr/lib/ksh93/ ?

Please change that to /usr/lib/ksh/ - the (19)93 part is a version
number.

> Until we have some
> real examples or a real need I don't see that this is generic to *all*
> shells and is more likely specific to some class of shells maybe which
> might be just ksh93.

I doubt that. At least for the curses stuff we have two parallel
implementations (ksh, zsh).

> Last but not least what is a shell ? would /usr/lib/shell/python be
> allowed ?

The answer is "yes" if python can deal with the POSIX shell syntax...
and "no" if it can't hand this syntax.

----

Bye,
Roland

-- 
  __ .  . __
 (o.\ \/ /.o) roland.mainz@nrubsig.org
  \__\/\/__/  MPEG specialist, C&&JAVA&&Sun&&Unix programmer
  /O /==\ O\  TEL +49 641 7950090
 (;O/ \/ \O;)

From danek.duvall@sun.com Thu May 29 09:09:57 2008
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Subject: Re: ksh93 Integration Update 1 Amendments 1
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On Thu, May 29, 2008 at 03:11:13PM +0100, Darren J Moffat wrote:

> I think you missed the point I was trying to make it wasn't a /usr/share vs 
> /usr/lib distinction but the fact that there is already a system wide place 
> for zsh "extensions/plugins/whatever" yet this case appears to be 
> suggesting that /usr/lib/shell/zsh would be that place.

I'm skeptical that anything zsh-specific should ever go there.  I'm happy
to see if I can add to zsh's default fpath on Solaris to point to
/usr/lib/shell/whatever, but the zsh scripts will remain in /usr/share/zsh
and the zsh loadable modules will remain in /usr/lib/zsh.

Danek

From roland.mainz@nrubsig.org Thu May 29 09:18:25 2008
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Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 18:18:13 +0200
From: Roland Mainz <roland.mainz@nrubsig.org>
Subject: Re: [ksh93-integration-discuss] ksh93 Integration Update 1 Amendments1
 [PSARC/2008/344FastTracktimeout 06/03/2008]
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John Plocher wrote:
> Chris Pickett wrote:
> >>  Last but not least what is a shell ? would /usr/lib/shell/python be
> >>  allowed ?
> >
> > Don't. Be. Silly.
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UNIX_shell
> >
> > Unless python starts calling itself a shell it isn't one.
> 
> What "libraries written in a scripting language" have to do
> with "shell" is exactly the point.  Python is a scripting
> language, it has reusable libraries, people are reputed to
> have written useful things in it, and, like Tom Christianson
> and Perl, I'm sure someone has actually tried using the Python
> interpreter as their login shell at least once :-)
> 
> Given Roland's suggested usage model (a place to put compiled
> ksh93 scripting language libraries for use by others), the name
> he chose for the directory (.../shell) seems to be too generic,
> and thus out of place.

Point was: Bundle the shell function libraries _toegether_ in one common
base directory, have them share functions via ${BASEDIR}/sh/ if the
functions are in the POSIX shell syntax and in interpreter-specfic (e.g.
${BASEDIR}/zsh/..., ${BASEDIR}/ksh/...) if they use extended syntax...
and handle the modules (one module may contain multiple functions) and
functions in a DNS-like hieracy and allow pattern to be used as
selectors. 

<rant>Why is this /usr/lib/shell/ directory _that_ difficult_ to get via
ARC ? Somehow I'm starting to regret to have exposed too much detail and
now we're _bickering_ (sorry for that word but I don't know any better
word for it) the details down to a sub-atomic level to hell.</rant>

----

Bye,
Roland

-- 
  __ .  . __
 (o.\ \/ /.o) roland.mainz@nrubsig.org
  \__\/\/__/  MPEG specialist, C&&JAVA&&Sun&&Unix programmer
  /O /==\ O\  TEL +49 641 7950090
 (;O/ \/ \O;)

From gdamore@sun.com Thu May 29 09:23:12 2008
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Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 09:23:06 -0700
From: "Garrett D'Amore" <gdamore@sun.com>
Subject: Re: ksh93 Integration Update 1 Amendments 1
	[PSARC/2008/344FastTracktimeout 06/03/2008]
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Cc: Darren J Moffat <Darren.Moffat@sun.com>,
        James Carlson <James.D.Carlson@sun.com>,
        Roland Mainz <roland.mainz@nrubsig.org>, PSARC-ext@sun.com,
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Danek Duvall wrote:
> On Thu, May 29, 2008 at 03:11:13PM +0100, Darren J Moffat wrote:
>
>   
>> I think you missed the point I was trying to make it wasn't a /usr/share vs 
>> /usr/lib distinction but the fact that there is already a system wide place 
>> for zsh "extensions/plugins/whatever" yet this case appears to be 
>> suggesting that /usr/lib/shell/zsh would be that place.
>>     
>
> I'm skeptical that anything zsh-specific should ever go there.  I'm happy
> to see if I can add to zsh's default fpath on Solaris to point to
> /usr/lib/shell/whatever, but the zsh scripts will remain in /usr/share/zsh
> and the zsh loadable modules will remain in /usr/lib/zsh.
>
> Danek
>   
Furthermore, I will point out that we can deal with shells needing 
different locations for bits with judicious of symbolic links.  I'm of a 
mind that /usr/lib/ksh or /usr/lib/ksh93 should be used.  (I actually 
prefer the latter, unless the only things that will ever be in 
/usr/lib/ksh will also be capable of being used by the default 
/usr/bin/ksh.)

    -- Garrett


From gdamore@sun.com Thu May 29 09:39:23 2008
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Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 09:39:17 -0700
From: "Garrett D'Amore" <gdamore@sun.com>
Subject: Re: [ksh93-integration-discuss] ksh93 Integration Update 1 Amendments1
 [PSARC/2008/344FastTracktimeout 06/03/2008]
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Roland Mainz wrote:
>
>
> <rant>Why is this /usr/lib/shell/ directory _that_ difficult_ to get via
> ARC ? Somehow I'm starting to regret to have exposed too much detail and
> now we're _bickering_ (sorry for that word but I don't know any better
> word for it) the details down to a sub-atomic level to hell.</rant>
>   
If I can offer what I think might be an explanation (I think I said much 
the same during yesterday's IRC session):

You've claimed to offer generic functionality to be shared by several 
different shells, using a very generic name, and then offered no detail 
as to what you intend or what the directory contents will be.  It seems 
clear that you intend usage which *not* be project private in the least.

Its like asking for a permit to build a new house without specifying 
anything other than what neighborhood it will be in.  A lot more detail 
about what you intend, why this is useful, and how it will be shared 
would be useful.  I also think that's the kind of detail that justifies 
a separate case, rather than trying to piggyback this as a small 
addition on another case.

Alternatively, for a truly project private directory, that would 
probably not require ARC approval, using a directory like /usr/lib/ksh 
or /usr/lib/ksh93 would work.  (You'll still need approval in the form 
of contracts or somesuch when other projects start to make use of this, 
though.)

    -- Garrett


From John.Plocher@sun.com Thu May 29 14:07:07 2008
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Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 14:07:02 -0700
From: John Plocher <John.Plocher@sun.com>
Subject: Re: [ksh93-integration-discuss] ksh93 Integration Update 1 Amendments1
 [PSARC/2008/344FastTracktimeout 06/03/2008]
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I think it is time for an updated spec/issue roll up.

Here is where I think things stand - please correct any misunderstandings:

This project is an amendment to the Korn Shell 93 Integration project
update 1 ARC case (PSARC/2008/094) specifying the following additional
interfaces:
    1) Update of ksh93 from upstream release ast-ksh.2007-12-15 to
       ast-ksh-2008-05-22
       1.1) Update of ksh93
       1.2) New "typeset" variable storage qualifier for function
       1.3) New floating-point datatype "hexfloat" ("typeset -X varname)
       1.4) New reserved options for "typeset".
       1.5) New ksh93 math functions "ceil":
       1.6) New reserved builtin "enum"
    2) Project-private location for shell function library

    (Details: http://www.opensolaris.org/os/community/arc/caselog/2008/344/onepager/)

There are 3 issues with the existing proposal: New keywords, release
taxonomy and /usr/lib/shell.

I think they all have been mostly resolved:

   1) Introduction of hexfloat, enum and ceil into reserved namespace

      Commentary:
	hexfloat is simply a new argument to the typeset command.
	ceil is a math function that can't conflict with shell
	    variables or function names.
	This leaves enum as the only potential name conflict.

	My judgment call is that this is OK.  Why?

         Doing it now is better than either later or never.  Impact on
         users at this point is zero - ksh93 is new to Nevada, it does
         not ship with S10.  In addition, the upstream project team has
	a history of being extremely compatible - this is the first
	such addition in a dozen years, and it appears that no more
	additions are planned, so this should not turn into a chronic
	issue.

      Resolution:
	Not a problem.

   2) Relationship of "t-, t, t+" versioning scheme and C-Team
      integration rules.

      Commentary:
   	The upstream convention seems to be "no incompatible changes",
	"run API conformance test suites rigorously to ensure no
	regressions" and "moderate new feature additions based on
	[- +] release state"

	The boogie man is whether or not incompatible changes would show
	up in a "-" release, or if bugs would show up there that would
	cause equivalent breakage.  Given the external team's almost
	obsessive focus on compatibility, I for one am not concerned
	about this at all.

      Resolution:
	Not a problem.

   3) Creation of /usr/lib/shell as Project Private

      Commentary:
     	The desire is to create a place to experiment with creating an
     	environment for POSIX compatible shells to place and share
     	middleware "library" code.  This implies a whole bunch of stuff,
     	most of which is non-obvious and not appropriate for Project
     	Private classification.

     	POSIX shells are usually the ones called "sh" - usually linked
	to include bash, korn, ash, dash, etc.  The level of conformity
	to the official    POSIX shell spec varies significantly between
	all these shells.

      Resolution (from Roland):

         Create /usr/lib/shell as a Volatile playground with the
         following initial expectations:

         A place to bundle shell function libraries _toegether_ in
         one common base directory, have them share functions
         via ${BASEDIR}/sh/ if the functions are in the POSIX
         shell syntax and in interpreter-specfic (e.g.
         ${BASEDIR}/zsh/..., ${BASEDIR}/ksh/...) if they use
         extended syntax... and handle the modules (one module
         may contain multiple functions) and functions in a
         DNS-like hieracy and allow pattern to be used as
         selectors.

         The intent is that shells will contain a builtin
	variable which points to the base directory so that
	consuming shell scripts do not need to know the
	absolute location where the library files are stored.



   -John


From gdamore@sun.com Thu May 29 14:14:46 2008
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Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 14:14:39 -0700
From: "Garrett D'Amore" <gdamore@sun.com>
Subject: Re: [ksh93-integration-discuss] ksh93 Integration Update 1 Amendments1
 [PSARC/2008/344FastTracktimeout 06/03/2008]
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John Plocher wrote:
> I think it is time for an updated spec/issue roll up.
>
> Here is where I think things stand - please correct any 
> misunderstandings:
>
> This project is an amendment to the Korn Shell 93 Integration project
> update 1 ARC case (PSARC/2008/094) specifying the following additional
> interfaces:
>    1) Update of ksh93 from upstream release ast-ksh.2007-12-15 to
>       ast-ksh-2008-05-22
>       1.1) Update of ksh93
>       1.2) New "typeset" variable storage qualifier for function
>       1.3) New floating-point datatype "hexfloat" ("typeset -X varname)
>       1.4) New reserved options for "typeset".
>       1.5) New ksh93 math functions "ceil":
>       1.6) New reserved builtin "enum"
>    2) Project-private location for shell function library
>
>    (Details: 
> http://www.opensolaris.org/os/community/arc/caselog/2008/344/onepager/)
>
> There are 3 issues with the existing proposal: New keywords, release
> taxonomy and /usr/lib/shell.
>
> I think they all have been mostly resolved:
>
>   1) Introduction of hexfloat, enum and ceil into reserved namespace
>
>      Commentary:
>     hexfloat is simply a new argument to the typeset command.
>     ceil is a math function that can't conflict with shell
>         variables or function names.
>     This leaves enum as the only potential name conflict.
>
>     My judgment call is that this is OK.  Why?
>
>         Doing it now is better than either later or never.  Impact on
>         users at this point is zero - ksh93 is new to Nevada, it does
>         not ship with S10.  In addition, the upstream project team has
>     a history of being extremely compatible - this is the first
>     such addition in a dozen years, and it appears that no more
>     additions are planned, so this should not turn into a chronic
>     issue.
>
>      Resolution:
>     Not a problem.
>
>   2) Relationship of "t-, t, t+" versioning scheme and C-Team
>      integration rules.
>
>      Commentary:
>       The upstream convention seems to be "no incompatible changes",
>     "run API conformance test suites rigorously to ensure no
>     regressions" and "moderate new feature additions based on
>     [- +] release state"
>
>     The boogie man is whether or not incompatible changes would show
>     up in a "-" release, or if bugs would show up there that would
>     cause equivalent breakage.  Given the external team's almost
>     obsessive focus on compatibility, I for one am not concerned
>     about this at all.
>
>      Resolution:
>     Not a problem.

Agreed.  Can the project team confirm your statement that no other such 
additions are planned?

>
>   3) Creation of /usr/lib/shell as Project Private
>
>      Commentary:
>         The desire is to create a place to experiment with creating an
>         environment for POSIX compatible shells to place and share
>         middleware "library" code.  This implies a whole bunch of stuff,
>         most of which is non-obvious and not appropriate for Project
>         Private classification.
>
>         POSIX shells are usually the ones called "sh" - usually linked
>     to include bash, korn, ash, dash, etc.  The level of conformity
>     to the official    POSIX shell spec varies significantly between
>     all these shells.
>
>      Resolution (from Roland):
>
>         Create /usr/lib/shell as a Volatile playground with the
>         following initial expectations:
>
>         A place to bundle shell function libraries _toegether_ in
>         one common base directory, have them share functions
>         via ${BASEDIR}/sh/ if the functions are in the POSIX
>         shell syntax and in interpreter-specfic (e.g.
>         ${BASEDIR}/zsh/..., ${BASEDIR}/ksh/...) if they use
>         extended syntax... and handle the modules (one module
>         may contain multiple functions) and functions in a
>         DNS-like hieracy and allow pattern to be used as
>         selectors.
>
>         The intent is that shells will contain a builtin
>     variable which points to the base directory so that
>     consuming shell scripts do not need to know the
>     absolute location where the library files are stored.

I would prefer to have the above slightly better specified... including, 
what the variable name is, and how consumers will be able to use this.  
(Including perhaps some examples of the hierarchy, and references to 
what the file content is -- parsed scripts, precompiled shellcode, 
shared objects, what?)  Also, how will we get things like zsh or bash to 
use these?  (See David Comay's response and commentary on zsh's 
/usr/share repository.)

HOWEVER, I recognize that this is Volatile, subject to change, and I 
won't press too heavily for the above details.  (I still think it would 
be a good idea to have a more complete specification.  Even if it is 
going to change soon.)

    -- Garrett


From John.Plocher@sun.com Thu May 29 15:07:03 2008
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Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 15:06:58 -0700
From: John Plocher <John.Plocher@sun.com>
Subject: Re: [ksh93-integration-discuss] ksh93 Integration Update 1 Amendments1
 [PSARC/2008/344FastTracktimeout 06/03/2008]
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Garrett D'Amore wrote:
> HOWEVER, I recognize that this is Volatile, subject to change, and I 
> won't press too heavily for the above details.

I think this last bit is where Roland (et.al.) want to play test ideas
simply because they don't have a spec in mind right now...

I personally don't believe that a non-trivial generic posix shell-agnostic
library can actually be written today given the differences between all the
various "sh-like" shells, but I'd be very happy to be proven wrong :-)

   -John

From roland.mainz@nrubsig.org Thu May 29 15:12:06 2008
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From: Roland Mainz <roland.mainz@nrubsig.org>
Subject: Re: [ksh93-integration-discuss] ksh93 Integration Update 1
 Amendments1[PSARC/2008/344FastTracktimeout 06/03/2008]
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Garrett D'Amore wrote:
> John Plocher wrote:
> > I think it is time for an updated spec/issue roll up.
> >
> > Here is where I think things stand - please correct any
> > misunderstandings:
[snip]
> >   2) Relationship of "t-, t, t+" versioning scheme and C-Team
> >      integration rules.
> >
> >      Commentary:
> >       The upstream convention seems to be "no incompatible changes",
> >     "run API conformance test suites rigorously to ensure no
> >     regressions" and "moderate new feature additions based on
> >     [- +] release state"
> >
> >     The boogie man is whether or not incompatible changes would show
> >     up in a "-" release, or if bugs would show up there that would
> >     cause equivalent breakage.  Given the external team's almost
> >     obsessive focus on compatibility, I for one am not concerned
> >     about this at all.
> >
> >      Resolution:
> >     Not a problem.
> 
> Agreed.  Can the project team confirm your statement that no other such
> additions are planned?

As said on IRC: For ksh93 version "t" and "t+" there won't AFAIK be any
new keywords. Beyond that we don't have any plans for new keywords right
now, however I can't rule it out that we may come up with new ideas in
the next couple of years. Note: _YEARS_. For ksh93t we're pretty much
occupied with getting bugfixes and testing done (which includes many
sleepless nights and I even turned my current main work related to
automating license extraction into a giant ksh93 testbed (erm...
technically the only two suiteable languages with efficient variable
tree support were JAVA and ksh93) to find more bugs (as a result we
developed testcases like
http://svn.genunix.org/repos/on/branches/ksh93/gisburn/scripts/tests/test_vartree002.sh
or
http://svn.genunix.org/repos/on/branches/ksh93/gisburn/scripts/tests/test_staticvariables.sh
to hunt down the remaining bugs)).

And before someone complains: The reserved "-T" and "-h" flags for
"typeset" (marked as "reserved for future usage" in this case) are for a
new type system, e.g. user-defineable types. It's there right now in the
shipping ksh93 binary and the update will stabilize it but we are going
to ARC that later in detail (likely when ksh93 version "t+" comes out),
not now (and it won't add new keywords and the matching flags for
"typeset" are "reserved" in this ARC case).

> >   3) Creation of /usr/lib/shell as Project Private
[snip]
> >         Create /usr/lib/shell as a Volatile playground with the
> >         following initial expectations:
> >
> >         A place to bundle shell function libraries _toegether_ in
> >         one common base directory, have them share functions
> >         via ${BASEDIR}/sh/ if the functions are in the POSIX
> >         shell syntax and in interpreter-specfic (e.g.
> >         ${BASEDIR}/zsh/..., ${BASEDIR}/ksh/...) if they use
> >         extended syntax... and handle the modules (one module
> >         may contain multiple functions) and functions in a
> >         DNS-like hieracy and allow pattern to be used as
> >         selectors.
> >
> >         The intent is that shells will contain a builtin
> >     variable which points to the base directory so that
> >     consuming shell scripts do not need to know the
> >     absolute location where the library files are stored.
> 
> I would prefer to have the above slightly better specified... including,
> what the variable name is, and how consumers will be able to use this.
> (Including perhaps some examples of the hierarchy, and references to
> what the file content is -- parsed scripts, precompiled shellcode,
> shared objects, what?)

The issue is that this is a new idea and I've crafted-up such details...
but if we ARC that now we just end-up with a theoretically perfect
design which turns out to be a pain to use in real-world applications.
That's why I had the idea to make it "private" (as a lesson learned I'll
ask John Plocher next time to check an ARC case before posting it - it
seems getting the interface stabilty level wrong ("Private" vs.
"Volatile") quickly leads to hell and beyond...)) - to make sure we can
test the design in the real world and make adjustments and _then_ ARC
it.
I don't want to end-up with a design like SMF's UTF-8 property strings -
which are _theoretically_ a good idea (I'm explictly excluding the
Unicode issues around Han unification (which could lead to the
conclusion that using UTF-8 for property storage in SMF wasn't a good
idea either)) until you realise that adding UTF-8 data to non-UTF-8
encoded multibyte data results in an invalid character sequence which no
utilty can read at character level (therefore using any property values
with charcters outside ASCII is currently impossible with SMF - the
consuming tools/shell scripts just choke and collapse when they try to
deal with it) ... perfect theoretical design, zero practical value.

> Also, how will we get things like zsh or bash to
> use these?  (See David Comay's response and commentary on zsh's
> /usr/share repository.)

Erm... where did David Comay post to this thread ? Which posting do you
mean ?

> HOWEVER, I recognize that this is Volatile, subject to change, and I
> won't press too heavily for the above details.  (I still think it would
> be a good idea to have a more complete specification.  Even if it is
> going to change soon.)

Umpf... for now I would prefer to go the way of "the code is the
documentation" (or ask in shell-discuss@opensolaris.org) and if the code
works in the real world start writing documentation, let others
contribute and then later move it to ARC when everyone is happy.

----

Bye,
Roland

-- 
  __ .  . __
 (o.\ \/ /.o) roland.mainz@nrubsig.org
  \__\/\/__/  MPEG specialist, C&&JAVA&&Sun&&Unix programmer
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From jek3@sun.com Thu May 29 16:34:48 2008
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Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 13:36:53 -1000
From: Joseph Kowalski <jek3@sun.com>
Subject: Re: [ksh93-integration-discuss] ksh93 Integration Update 1 Amendments1
 [PSARC/2008/344FastTracktimeout 06/03/2008]
In-reply-to: <483F1AF6.5000208@Sun.Com>
To: John Plocher <John.Plocher@sun.com>
Cc: "Garrett D'Amore" <gdamore@sun.com>,
        Roland Mainz <roland.mainz@nrubsig.org>, PSARC-ext@sun.com
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John Plocher wrote:
>   1) Introduction of hexfloat, enum and ceil into reserved namespace
> ...
>      Resolution:
>     Not a problem.
Agreed.
>   2) Relationship of "t-, t, t+" versioning scheme and C-Team
>      integration rules.
> ...
>      Resolution:
>     Not a problem.
I can't seem to get a clear answer about my concern (and yes, it
is a C-team issue).  Let me try a very simple question:

    Can interfaces which appear in "t-" (for the first time, semantics
    or syntax), be incompatibly changed in "t"?

       [  ] yes
       [  ] no

If Roland can check the "no" box, then I agree.  (If not, this case
can probably still be approved, but with a note to the C-team.)
>
>   3) Creation of /usr/lib/shell as Project Private
Thinking...

- jek3

From gdamore@sun.com Thu May 29 16:39:40 2008
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Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 16:39:25 -0700
From: "Garrett D'Amore" <gdamore@sun.com>
Subject: Re: [ksh93-integration-discuss] ksh93 Integration Update 1 Amendments1
 [PSARC/2008/344FastTracktimeout 06/03/2008]
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Joseph Kowalski wrote:
>
>>   2) Relationship of "t-, t, t+" versioning scheme and C-Team
>>      integration rules.
>> ...
>>      Resolution:
>>     Not a problem.
> I can't seem to get a clear answer about my concern (and yes, it
> is a C-team issue).  Let me try a very simple question:
>
>    Can interfaces which appear in "t-" (for the first time, semantics
>    or syntax), be incompatibly changed in "t"?
>
>       [  ] yes
>       [  ] no
>
> If Roland can check the "no" box, then I agree.  (If not, this case
> can probably still be approved, but with a note to the C-team.)

I've seen mail from David Korn (not CC'd to PSARC, unfortunately) which 
I think cleared this up unambiguously.  Check the "no" box, and lets 
move forward.  :-)

>>
>>   3) Creation of /usr/lib/shell as Project Private
> Thinking...

Yeah, you me, and a few other people too. :-)  I still wish this were 
separate, at least that way we could have those discussions and let the 
rest of the unrelated ksh93 updates (which seem like they had their 
issues resolved) move forward.

    -- Garrett


From jek3@Sun.COM Thu May 29 16:47:10 2008
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Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 13:49:11 -1000
From: Joseph Kowalski <jek3@Sun.COM>
Subject: Re: [ksh93-integration-discuss] ksh93 Integration Update 1 Amendments1
 [PSARC/2008/344FastTracktimeout 06/03/2008]
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Garrett D'Amore wrote:
> I've seen mail from David Korn (not CC'd to PSARC, unfortunately) 
> which I think cleared this up unambiguously.  Check the "no" box, and 
> lets move forward.  :-)
Can we forward this to PSARC (actually the case, so it is captured)?

Then we can truly move forward....

- jek3


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Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 01:50:02 +0200
From: Roland Mainz <roland.mainz@nrubsig.org>
Subject: Re: [ksh93-integration-discuss] ksh93 Integration Update 1
 Amendments1[PSARC/2008/344FastTracktimeout 06/03/2008]
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Joseph Kowalski wrote:
> Garrett D'Amore wrote:
> > I've seen mail from David Korn (not CC'd to PSARC, unfortunately)
> > which I think cleared this up unambiguously.  Check the "no" box, and
> > lets move forward.  :-)
> Can we forward this to PSARC (actually the case, so it is captured)?
> 
> Then we can truly move forward....

I've attached his email to this one...

----

Bye,
Roland

-- 
  __ .  . __
 (o.\ \/ /.o) roland.mainz@nrubsig.org
  \__\/\/__/  MPEG specialist, C&&JAVA&&Sun&&Unix programmer
  /O /==\ O\  TEL +49 641 7950090
 (;O/ \/ \O;)

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jek3@sun.com
Subject: Re: Re: [ksh93-integration-discuss] 2008/344 [ksh93 Integration Update  1 Amendments 1]
--------

I thought that I would provide information on two of the issues
that have been bantered about on this list for the last week
or so.

1.	What is the meaning of - and + for a release.
	I try to make major code changes at the beginning
	of a letter change.  For example, the type system
	as added to the 't' release and this includes the new
	enum builtin.  While the ksh93t- release passes all
	the ksh93s+ regression tests (plus a few new tests),
	I expect that the new features are subject to change
	based on feedback (bugs and ideas).  Once there has
	been enough feedback that I feel comfortable I remove the -
	suffix.  At this point I will only fix bugs that are either
	critical or those that are minor and I deem to be safe to fix.
	Releases subsequent to release without a suffix use a +.
	More major code changes will have to wait for the next major release.
	A major release (a new letter) typically occurs about once
	a year.

2.	The namespace issue.
	The key to handling the namespace issue is with the PATH
	and FPATH variables.  ksh is able to load and add both
	builtins and functions based on the PATH search.
	Whenever a name that is not currently known by the shell
	is found, it does a PATH search looking for executables
	and functions found on PATH.  For directories that are
	also in FPATH, the file will be loaded (dotted) and then
	a command of that name is run.
	This, if you want enum to be out of the default namespace,
	you could create a shared library with the enum code,
	and put a script named enum in a directory named by FPATH
	that contains
		built -f enum.so
	where enum.so contains the enum built-in code.

	I recommend not using full pathnames in the code or special
	characters in the name to avoid collisions. 

David Korn
dgk@research.att.com
_______________________________________________
ksh93-integration-discuss mailing list
ksh93-integration-discuss@opensolaris.org
http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/ksh93-integration-discuss

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Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 14:04:45 -1000
From: Joseph Kowalski <jek3@sun.com>
Subject: Re: [ksh93-integration-discuss] ksh93 Integration Update 1
 Amendments1[PSARC/2008/344FastTracktimeout 06/03/2008]
In-reply-to: <483F412A.7206DDC0@nrubsig.org>
To: Roland Mainz <roland.mainz@nrubsig.org>
Cc: "Garrett D'Amore" <gdamore@sun.com>, John Plocher <John.Plocher@sun.com>,
        PSARC-ext@sun.com
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 From David Korn, as referenced by Garrett, forwarded by Roland.
> 	I expect that the new features are subject to change
> 	based on feedback (bugs and ideas).  Once there has
> 	been enough feedback that I feel comfortable I remove the -
> 	suffix.
That sounds like a resounding "yes" - new features can be altered
in the "t-" to "t" transition.

(BTW: I wouldn't expect it to be any other way.  We make the
same allowance for Beta releases.  We just shouldn't be placing
components with Beta [non-]guarantees in potentially FCS
products.)

- jek3



Roland Mainz wrote:
> Joseph Kowalski wrote:
>   
>> Garrett D'Amore wrote:
>>     
>>> I've seen mail from David Korn (not CC'd to PSARC, unfortunately)
>>> which I think cleared this up unambiguously.  Check the "no" box, and
>>> lets move forward.  :-)
>>>       
>> Can we forward this to PSARC (actually the case, so it is captured)?
>>
>> Then we can truly move forward....
>>     
>
> I've attached his email to this one...
>
> ----
>
> Bye,
> Roland
>
>   
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Subject:
> Re: [ksh93-integration-discuss] 2008/344 [ksh93 Integration Update 1 
> Amendments 1]
> From:
> David Korn <dgk@research.att.com>
> Date:
> Thu, 29 May 2008 17:17:01 -0400
> To:
> ksh93-integration-discuss@opensolaris.org
>
> To:
> ksh93-integration-discuss@opensolaris.org
>
>
> jek3@sun.com
> Subject: Re: Re: [ksh93-integration-discuss] 2008/344 [ksh93 Integration Update  1 Amendments 1]
> --------
>
> I thought that I would provide information on two of the issues
> that have been bantered about on this list for the last week
> or so.
>
> 1.	What is the meaning of - and + for a release.
> 	I try to make major code changes at the beginning
> 	of a letter change.  For example, the type system
> 	as added to the 't' release and this includes the new
> 	enum builtin.  While the ksh93t- release passes all
> 	the ksh93s+ regression tests (plus a few new tests),
> 	I expect that the new features are subject to change
> 	based on feedback (bugs and ideas).  Once there has
> 	been enough feedback that I feel comfortable I remove the -
> 	suffix.  At this point I will only fix bugs that are either
> 	critical or those that are minor and I deem to be safe to fix.
> 	Releases subsequent to release without a suffix use a +.
> 	More major code changes will have to wait for the next major release.
> 	A major release (a new letter) typically occurs about once
> 	a year.
>
> 2.	The namespace issue.
> 	The key to handling the namespace issue is with the PATH
> 	and FPATH variables.  ksh is able to load and add both
> 	builtins and functions based on the PATH search.
> 	Whenever a name that is not currently known by the shell
> 	is found, it does a PATH search looking for executables
> 	and functions found on PATH.  For directories that are
> 	also in FPATH, the file will be loaded (dotted) and then
> 	a command of that name is run.
> 	This, if you want enum to be out of the default namespace,
> 	you could create a shared library with the enum code,
> 	and put a script named enum in a directory named by FPATH
> 	that contains
> 		built -f enum.so
> 	where enum.so contains the enum built-in code.
>
> 	I recommend not using full pathnames in the code or special
> 	characters in the name to avoid collisions. 
>
> David Korn
> dgk@research.att.com
> _______________________________________________
> ksh93-integration-discuss mailing list
> ksh93-integration-discuss@opensolaris.org
> http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/ksh93-integration-discuss
>   


--Boundary_(ID_/KikhflQkqK8sMDajom+YQ)
Content-type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
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<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<html>
<head>
  <meta content="text/html;charset=ISO-8859-1" http-equiv="Content-Type">
</head>
<body bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">
<br>
From David Korn, as referenced by Garrett, forwarded by Roland.<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
  <pre wrap="">	I expect that the new features are subject to change
	based on feedback (bugs and ideas).  Once there has
	been enough feedback that I feel comfortable I remove the -
	suffix.</pre>
</blockquote>
That sounds like a resounding "yes" - new features can be altered<br>
in the "t-" to "t" transition.<br>
<br>
(BTW: I wouldn't expect it to be any other way.&nbsp; We make the<br>
same allowance for Beta releases.&nbsp; We just shouldn't be placing<br>
components with Beta [non-]guarantees in potentially FCS<br>
products.)<br>
<br>
- jek3<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Roland Mainz wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid:483F412A.7206DDC0@nrubsig.org" type="cite">
  <pre wrap="">Joseph Kowalski wrote:
  </pre>
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <pre wrap="">Garrett D'Amore wrote:
    </pre>
    <blockquote type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">I've seen mail from David Korn (not CC'd to PSARC, unfortunately)
which I think cleared this up unambiguously.  Check the "no" box, and
lets move forward.  :-)
      </pre>
    </blockquote>
    <pre wrap="">Can we forward this to PSARC (actually the case, so it is captured)?

Then we can truly move forward....
    </pre>
  </blockquote>
  <pre wrap=""><!---->
I've attached his email to this one...

----

Bye,
Roland

  </pre>
  <br>
  <hr size="4" width="90%"><br>
  <table class="header-part1" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"
 width="100%">
    <tbody>
      <tr>
        <td>
        <div class="headerdisplayname" style="display: inline;">Subject:
        </div>
Re: [ksh93-integration-discuss] 2008/344 [ksh93 Integration Update 1
Amendments 1]</td>
      </tr>
      <tr>
        <td>
        <div class="headerdisplayname" style="display: inline;">From: </div>
David Korn <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:dgk@research.att.com">&lt;dgk@research.att.com&gt;</a></td>
      </tr>
      <tr>
        <td>
        <div class="headerdisplayname" style="display: inline;">Date: </div>
Thu, 29 May 2008 17:17:01 -0400</td>
      </tr>
      <tr>
        <td>
        <div class="headerdisplayname" style="display: inline;">To: </div>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:ksh93-integration-discuss@opensolaris.org">ksh93-integration-discuss@opensolaris.org</a></td>
      </tr>
    </tbody>
  </table>
  <table class="header-part2" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"
 width="100%">
    <tbody>
      <tr>
        <td>
        <div class="headerdisplayname" style="display: inline;">To: </div>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:ksh93-integration-discuss@opensolaris.org">ksh93-integration-discuss@opensolaris.org</a></td>
      </tr>
    </tbody>
  </table>
  <br>
  <pre wrap=""><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:jek3@sun.com">jek3@sun.com</a>
Subject: Re: Re: [ksh93-integration-discuss] 2008/344 [ksh93 Integration Update  1 Amendments 1]
--------

I thought that I would provide information on two of the issues
that have been bantered about on this list for the last week
or so.

1.	What is the meaning of - and + for a release.
	I try to make major code changes at the beginning
	of a letter change.  For example, the type system
	as added to the 't' release and this includes the new
	enum builtin.  While the ksh93t- release passes all
	the ksh93s+ regression tests (plus a few new tests),
	I expect that the new features are subject to change
	based on feedback (bugs and ideas).  Once there has
	been enough feedback that I feel comfortable I remove the -
	suffix.  At this point I will only fix bugs that are either
	critical or those that are minor and I deem to be safe to fix.
	Releases subsequent to release without a suffix use a +.
	More major code changes will have to wait for the next major release.
	A major release (a new letter) typically occurs about once
	a year.

2.	The namespace issue.
	The key to handling the namespace issue is with the PATH
	and FPATH variables.  ksh is able to load and add both
	builtins and functions based on the PATH search.
	Whenever a name that is not currently known by the shell
	is found, it does a PATH search looking for executables
	and functions found on PATH.  For directories that are
	also in FPATH, the file will be loaded (dotted) and then
	a command of that name is run.
	This, if you want enum to be out of the default namespace,
	you could create a shared library with the enum code,
	and put a script named enum in a directory named by FPATH
	that contains
		built -f enum.so
	where enum.so contains the enum built-in code.

	I recommend not using full pathnames in the code or special
	characters in the name to avoid collisions. 

David Korn
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dgk@research.att.com">dgk@research.att.com</a>
_______________________________________________
ksh93-integration-discuss mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:ksh93-integration-discuss@opensolaris.org">ksh93-integration-discuss@opensolaris.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/ksh93-integration-discuss">http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/ksh93-integration-discuss</a>
  </pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
</body>
</html>

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From roland.mainz@nrubsig.org Thu May 29 17:20:26 2008
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From: Roland Mainz <roland.mainz@nrubsig.org>
Subject: Re: [ksh93-integration-discuss] ksh93 Integration Update 1
 Amendments1[PSARC/2008/344FastTracktimeout06/03/2008]
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> Joseph Kowalski wrote:
> 
> >From David Korn, as referenced by Garrett, forwarded by Roland.
> 
> >         I expect that the new features are subject to change
> >         based on feedback (bugs and ideas).  Once there has
> >         been enough feedback that I feel comfortable I remove the -
> >         suffix.
> >
> That sounds like a resounding "yes" - new features can be altered
> in the "t-" to "t" transition.
> 
> (BTW: I wouldn't expect it to be any other way.  We make the
> same allowance for Beta releases.  We just shouldn't be placing
> components with Beta [non-]guarantees in potentially FCS
> products.)

Note that this is a general statement. To check "yes" for _this_ case
covering ksh93 version "t-", "t" and "t+" two things must be "true":
1. We need a good idea for adding new stuff (we don't have such a thing
right now, nearly all effort mainly goes into the new type system,
bugfixing and hunting down global variables as preparation for thread
support etc. and the contentious thing - the "enum" builtin - was the
_first_ one since 15 years)
2. Somehow magically a large chunk of "free time" needs to fall out of
the heaven, crawl out of hell or is somehow else put into existance
(Sauron's ring is unfortunately lost... ;-( )

Since neither [1] or [2] are true we can mark the "no" checkbox for this
time and move along, right ?

----

Bye,
Roland

-- 
  __ .  . __
 (o.\ \/ /.o) roland.mainz@nrubsig.org
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From jek3@sun.com Thu May 29 17:37:27 2008
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From: Joseph Kowalski <jek3@sun.com>
Subject: Re: [ksh93-integration-discuss] ksh93 Integration Update 1
 Amendments1[PSARC/2008/344FastTracktimeout06/03/2008]
In-reply-to: <483F4843.CF4A69D4@nrubsig.org>
To: Roland Mainz <roland.mainz@nrubsig.org>
Cc: "Garrett D'Amore" <gdamore@sun.com>, John Plocher <John.Plocher@sun.com>,
        PSARC-ext@sun.com
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Roland Mainz wrote:
>> Joseph Kowalski wrote:
>>
>> >From David Korn, as referenced by Garrett, forwarded by Roland.
>>
>>     
>>>         I expect that the new features are subject to change
>>>         based on feedback (bugs and ideas).  Once there has
>>>         been enough feedback that I feel comfortable I remove the -
>>>         suffix.
>>>
>>>       
>> That sounds like a resounding "yes" - new features can be altered
>> in the "t-" to "t" transition.
>>
>> (BTW: I wouldn't expect it to be any other way.  We make the
>> same allowance for Beta releases.  We just shouldn't be placing
>> components with Beta [non-]guarantees in potentially FCS
>> products.)
>>     
>
> Note that this is a general statement. To check "yes" for _this_ case
> covering ksh93 version "t-", "t" and "t+" two things must be "true":
> 1. We need a good idea for adding new stuff (we don't have such a thing
> right now, nearly all effort mainly goes into the new type system,
> bugfixing and hunting down global variables as preparation for thread
> support etc. and the contentious thing - the "enum" builtin - was the
> _first_ one since 15 years)
> 2. Somehow magically a large chunk of "free time" needs to fall out of
> the heaven, crawl out of hell or is somehow else put into existance
> (Sauron's ring is unfortunately lost... ;-( )
>
> Since neither [1] or [2] are true we can mark the "no" checkbox for this
> time and move along, right ?
>   
Nope, not a chance. As I said, this is truly a C-team issue.

I'm just going to forward this mail (which has all the relative points, 
including
your rationalization) to the C-team (J. Beck, et.al.).  They can decide 
what to do
with it.

That said, I think we *are* done with this as a PSARC issue.

- jek3


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Roland Mainz wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid:483F4843.CF4A69D4@nrubsig.org" type="cite">
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <pre wrap="">Joseph Kowalski wrote:

&gt;From David Korn, as referenced by Garrett, forwarded by Roland.

    </pre>
    <blockquote type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">        I expect that the new features are subject to change
        based on feedback (bugs and ideas).  Once there has
        been enough feedback that I feel comfortable I remove the -
        suffix.

      </pre>
    </blockquote>
    <pre wrap="">That sounds like a resounding "yes" - new features can be altered
in the "t-" to "t" transition.

(BTW: I wouldn't expect it to be any other way.  We make the
same allowance for Beta releases.  We just shouldn't be placing
components with Beta [non-]guarantees in potentially FCS
products.)
    </pre>
  </blockquote>
  <pre wrap=""><!---->
Note that this is a general statement. To check "yes" for _this_ case
covering ksh93 version "t-", "t" and "t+" two things must be "true":
1. We need a good idea for adding new stuff (we don't have such a thing
right now, nearly all effort mainly goes into the new type system,
bugfixing and hunting down global variables as preparation for thread
support etc. and the contentious thing - the "enum" builtin - was the
_first_ one since 15 years)
2. Somehow magically a large chunk of "free time" needs to fall out of
the heaven, crawl out of hell or is somehow else put into existance
(Sauron's ring is unfortunately lost... ;-( )

Since neither [1] or [2] are true we can mark the "no" checkbox for this
time and move along, right ?
  </pre>
</blockquote>
Nope, not a chance. As I said, this is truly a C-team issue.<br>
<br>
I'm just going to forward this mail (which has all the relative points,
including<br>
your rationalization) to the C-team (J. Beck, et.al.).&nbsp; They can decide
what to do<br>
with it.<br>
<br>
That said, I think we *are* done with this as a PSARC issue.<br>
<br>
- jek3<br>
<br>
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From Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de Fri May 30 05:00:38 2008
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From: Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (Joerg Schilling)
Subject: Re: [ksh93-integration-discuss] ksh93 Integration Update 1 Amendments1
 [PSARC/2008/344 FastTrack timeout 06/03/2008]
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To: roland.mainz@nrubsig.org
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Roland Mainz <roland.mainz@nrubsig.org> wrote:

> > Did you thing about the fact that ksh93 is _really_ big and that people who
> > like to use OpenSolaris in embedded environments probably cannot use ksh93 for
> > this reason? 
>
> Erm... the issue is the other way around - the use of builtin commands
> enables ksh93 to work much faster and with less memory (since you can
> avoid awk/sed/tr/etc. completely and even avoid temporary files for

You would need to prove this on an embedded system. I am not convinced at all.

If you run huge shell scripts like "configure", I would expect the ksh to be
faster but for the scripts that Solaris uses for startup, things look much 
different.

Jörg

-- 
 EMail:joerg@schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin
       js@cs.tu-berlin.de                (uni)  
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From: Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (Joerg Schilling)
Subject: Re: ksh93 Integration Update 1 Amendments
 1[PSARC/2008/344FastTracktimeout 06/03/2008]
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Roland Mainz <roland.mainz@nrubsig.org> wrote:

> Joerg Schilling wrote:
> > Roland Mainz <roland.mainz@nrubsig.org> wrote:
> > > ksh93 scripts written for one platform can run on Solaris, too (and
> > > ksh93 scripts written for Solaris may be able to run on other platforms
> > > like Linux or Win32/SFU/Cygwin, too). In a similar manner we want to
> > 
> > Knowing the bugs in the ksh that comes with SFU, I cannot believe that even
> > simple shell scripts will run on SFU ;-)
>
> Erm... please don't mix things - SFU has it's own (IMO half-broken)
> ksh88 clone while I was talking about running ksh93 itself on SFU.

Well I was going to correct you as you have been talking just about the SFU 
platform. Doing it this way implies that you refer to the ksh that comes wit SFU 
and this is of course extemely broken - even simple scripts won't work unless 
you introduce specific workarounds (see sub shell handling in the SFU ksh parser ;-).

Jörg

-- 
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From John.Plocher@sun.com Fri May 30 06:54:30 2008
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Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 06:54:22 -0700
From: John Plocher <John.Plocher@sun.com>
Subject: Re: [ksh93-integration-discuss] ksh93 Integration Update 1 Amendments1
 [PSARC/2008/344 FastTrack timeout 06/03/2008]
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Joerg Schilling wrote:
>You would need to prove this on an embedded system. I am not convinced at all.

Interesing discussion - But not as part of this case.

A future appliance/embedded OpenSolaris project is free (nay, almost
expected) to make its own choices as to which utilities it will use.
Almost certainly, it will not use the same choices as do the laptop
or bigiron configurations we are building here.

   -John



From gsf@research.att.com Fri May 30 07:10:34 2008
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Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 10:10:32 -0400
From: Glenn Fowler <gsf@research.att.com>
Subject: Re: [ksh93-integration-discuss] ksh93 Integration Update 1 Amendments1
  [PSARC/2008/344 FastTrack timeout 06/03/2008]
To: Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de, roland.mainz@nrubsig.org
Cc: Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com, busybox-dev@opensolaris.org,
        ksh93-integration-discuss@opensolaris.org, PSARC-ext@sun.com
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I'm sure we can have this discussion off-ARC

size can be levereged when properly engineered
(properly == transparent to the user save space/time measurements)

a few years back we did a real world test on a handheld with
	ksh+libshell.so+libcmd.so+libast.so+libcmd-main-stubs
where libcmd-main-stubs were all hard links to one main a.out for
all ast libcmd command and the disk footprint was smaller than
the equivalent set of /bin utilities, and, once the .so's were
pulled in by the first exec, ksh startup time was in the noise,
and set up to use the builtin libcmd commands directly enabled
the usual fork/exec-less speedups

in that off-ARC discussion we can resurrect real numbers
based on scripts you deem typical for embedded systems

-- Glenn Fowler -- AT&T Research, Florham Park NJ --

On Fri, 30 May 2008 13:55:04 +0200 Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (Joerg Schilling) wrote:
> Roland Mainz <roland.mainz@nrubsig.org> wrote:

> > > Did you thing about the fact that ksh93 is _really_ big and that people who
> > > like to use OpenSolaris in embedded environments probably cannot use ksh93 for
> > > this reason? 
> >
> > Erm... the issue is the other way around - the use of builtin commands
> > enables ksh93 to work much faster and with less memory (since you can
> > avoid awk/sed/tr/etc. completely and even avoid temporary files for

> You would need to prove this on an embedded system. I am not convinced at all.

> If you run huge shell scripts like "configure", I would expect the ksh to be
> faster but for the scripts that Solaris uses for startup, things look much 
> different.


From sacadmin Wed Jun 11 08:17:47 2008
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Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 10:17:12 -0500
From: Rick Matthews <Richard.Matthews@sun.com>
Subject: PSARC/2008/344 - ksh93 Integration Update 1 Amendments 1
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        Alan Coopersmith <Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com>
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Roland and Alan,
  At last weeks PSARC meeting, there was discussion around what the
current proposal on the table for this fast track is. Both Glenn and Garrett
expressed confusion as to the current state due to the volume of discussion.
They asked that the fast track be put into "waiting needs spec" and the
project team be notified. I overlooked the "notification" part, sorry.
  Can you please satisfy this request?

-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Rick Matthews                           email: Rick.Matthews@sun.com
Sun Microsystems, Inc.                  phone:+1(651) 554-1518
1270 Eagan Industrial Road              phone(internal): 54418
Suite 160                               fax:  +1(651) 554-1540
Eagan, MN 55121-1231 USA                main: +1(651) 554-1500		
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From sacadmin Wed Jun 11 08:50:36 2008
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Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 17:50:32 +0200
From: Roland Mainz <Roland.Mainz@Sun.COM>
Subject: Re: PSARC/2008/344 - ksh93 Integration Update 1 Amendments 1
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Rick Matthews wrote:
> Roland and Alan,
>  At last weeks PSARC meeting, there was discussion around what the
> current proposal on the table for this fast track is. Both Glenn and 
> Garrett
> expressed confusion as to the current state due to the volume of 
> discussion.
> They asked that the fast track be put into "waiting needs spec" and the
> project team be notified. I overlooked the "notification" part, sorry.
>  Can you please satisfy this request?

Ok...
... in how many hours is the ARC phone call ?

----

Bye,
Roland

-- 
   __ .  . __
  (o.\ \/ /.o) roland.mainz@nrubsig.org
   \__\/\/__/  MPEG specialist, C&&JAVA&&Sun&&Unix programmer
   /O /==\ O\  TEL +49 641 7950090
  (;O/ \/ \O;)

From sacadmin Wed Jun 11 09:13:16 2008
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Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 11:12:44 -0500
From: Rick Matthews <Richard.Matthews@sun.com>
Subject: Re: PSARC/2008/344 - ksh93 Integration Update 1 Amendments 1
In-reply-to: <484FF448.2040105@sun.com>
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Roland Mainz wrote:
> Rick Matthews wrote:
>> Roland and Alan,
>>  At last weeks PSARC meeting, there was discussion around what the
>> current proposal on the table for this fast track is. Both Glenn and 
>> Garrett
>> expressed confusion as to the current state due to the volume of 
>> discussion.
>> They asked that the fast track be put into "waiting needs spec" and the
>> project team be notified. I overlooked the "notification" part, sorry.
>>  Can you please satisfy this request?
>
> Ok...
> ... in how many hours is the ARC phone call ?
>
One. This request does not need to be satisfied today. Yes, I do apologize
for not catching this mistake earlier. Of course, if either the project 
team or
the owner had been keeping track, they would have found this request in
the audio (or in the live meeting).
> ----
>
> Bye,
> Roland
>
I hope you are being satirical about when the meeting starts. The main 
agenda item
is PSARC/2008/351 - Switch SPARC GNU coreutils+bash from 32 to 64 bit.
You are the submitter.

-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Rick Matthews                           email: Rick.Matthews@sun.com
Sun Microsystems, Inc.                  phone:+1(651) 554-1518
1270 Eagan Industrial Road              phone(internal): 54418
Suite 160                               fax:  +1(651) 554-1540
Eagan, MN 55121-1231 USA                main: +1(651) 554-1500		
---------------------------------------------------------------------


From sacadmin Wed Jun 11 09:37:28 2008
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Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 18:37:24 +0200
From: Roland Mainz <Roland.Mainz@Sun.COM>
Subject: Re: PSARC/2008/344 - ksh93 Integration Update 1 Amendments 1
In-reply-to: <484FF97C.9010803@Sun.COM>
Sender: Roland.Mainz@Sun.COM
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Rick Matthews wrote:
> Roland Mainz wrote:
> 
>> Rick Matthews wrote:
>>
>>> Roland and Alan,
>>>  At last weeks PSARC meeting, there was discussion around what the
>>> current proposal on the table for this fast track is. Both Glenn and 
>>> Garrett
>>> expressed confusion as to the current state due to the volume of 
>>> discussion.
>>> They asked that the fast track be put into "waiting needs spec" and the
>>> project team be notified. I overlooked the "notification" part, sorry.
>>>  Can you please satisfy this request?
>>
>>
>> Ok...
>> ... in how many hours is the ARC phone call ?
>>
> One. This request does not need to be satisfied today. Yes, I do apologize
> for not catching this mistake earlier. Of course, if either the project 
> team or
> the owner had been keeping track, they would have found this request in
> the audio (or in the live meeting).
 >
> I hope you are being satirical about when the meeting starts. The main 
> agenda item
> is PSARC/2008/351 - Switch SPARC GNU coreutils+bash from 32 to 64 bit.
> You are the submitter.

Erm... I'm not satirical, I just want to be sure since I missed the last 
meeting by a) writing down the wrong time (14:00h) and then b) messing 
it further up by getting (as usual) the timezone calculation wrong. It 
really couldn't get worse. That's why I am trying now to be 
tripple-carefull with the time of the call.

----

Bye,
Roland

-- 
   __ .  . __
  (o.\ \/ /.o) roland.mainz@nrubsig.org
   \__\/\/__/  MPEG specialist, C&&JAVA&&Sun&&Unix programmer
   /O /==\ O\  TEL +49 641 7950090
  (;O/ \/ \O;)

From roland.mainz@nrubsig.org Wed Jun 11 16:26:22 2008
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Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 01:26:12 +0200
From: Roland Mainz <roland.mainz@nrubsig.org>
Subject: Updated spec for [PSARC/2008/344 FastTrack timeout 06/03/2008] / was:
 Re: [ksh93-integration-discuss] ksh93 Integration Update 1 Amendments
 1[PSARC/2008/344 FastTrack timeout 06/03/2008]
Sender: gisburn@jupiterb48.nrubsig.org
To: Korn Shell 93 integration/migration project discussion
 <ksh93-integration-discuss@opensolaris.org>
Cc: PSARC-ext@sun.com, Alan Coopersmith <Alan.Coopersmith@SFBay.Sun.COM>
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Alan Coopersmith wrote:
> 
> I'm sponsoring this fast-track request on behalf of the
> ksh93-integration project.
> Please note that this is an *open* case.
[snip]

As discussed in today's ARC phone call...
... attached is the updated text for "onepager.txt" and
"manpage.diff.txt" and the diff from the old to the new version
("ksh93_integration_update1_Amendments_1_PSARC_2008_344_case_update001.diff.txt")
...

----

Bye,
Roland

-- 
  __ .  . __
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Content-disposition: inline; filename=onepager.txt

I'm sponsoring this fast-track request on behalf of the
ksh93-integration project.
Please note that this is an *open* case.

The release binding is the same as with the previous ksh93-integration project:
a patch/micro release of Solaris delivering through OS/Net
Stability levels are as described below.

Additional materials (man pages and diffs) can be found in the
'materials' subdirectory.



This project is an amendment to the Korn Shell 93 Integration project
update 1 ARC case (PSARC/2008/094) specifying the following additional
interfaces:
1) Update of ksh93 from upstream release ast-ksh.2007-12-15 to
  ast-ksh-2008-05-22
1.1) Update of ksh93
1.2) New "typeset" variable storage qualifier for function-static
	variables ("typeset -S varname")
1.3) New floating-point datatype "hexfloat" ("typeset -X varname)
1.4) New reserved options for "typeset".
1.5) New ksh93 math functions "ceil":
1.6) New reserved builtin "enum"



Bug/RFE Number(s):

6619428 RFE: Update ksh93 in Solaris to ast-ksh.2007-10-15 (or higher)
6601968 RFE: Add /usr/lib/shell/ksh/ as a place to store loadable
        shell functions



Interface		        Stability        Description                             
---------		        ---------        -----------  
/usr/lib/shell/                 Project private  <see below>
<new C99 math function "ceil">  Commited         C99 math functions



### Part 1: Update of ksh93 from upstream release ast-ksh.2007-12-15 to
ast-ksh-2008-05-22


## Part 1.1: Update of ksh93
The 1.1 portion of this project is the update of ksh93 from
ast-ksh.2007-12-15 to ast-ksh-2008-05-22 which marks the update from
ksh93 version 's+' to version 't-' (AST/ksh93 uses the (latin)
alphabet for its version number, e.g. version 'a', version 'b' etc. ;
the '+'/'-' means the stabilty status, e.g. '-' means its "alpha",
no suffix means its "stable" (e.g. ready for production usage) and
'+' means its a bugfixed stable version etc.).

Note that the team has invested _significant_ amounts of time to ensure
the quality requirements for Solaris, doing both manual and automated
testing, e.g. testing ksh93 using it's own test suite (47 tests) in 53
different locales, one time as plain script and one time as compiled
script (resulting in 4982 test runs), improving the test suite,
enabling libast-internal memory corruption checking (similar to what
libumem does), developing own additions to the test suite and running
the standards test suites agains it, too.
Manual testing includes basic usability exists covering languages like
Japanese and Chinese (UTF-8 and GB18030), testing whether the generated
binaries work as /sbin/sh and /usr/bin/ksh in the Indiana distribution
and whether the binaries can be used to build OS/Net.


## Part 1.2: New "typeset" variable storage qualifier for function
  static variables ("typeset -S varname")
The "typeset" builtin has a new option "-S" to declare a variable
as "static", similar to |static| variables in a ISO C/C++ code.


## Part 1.3: New floating-point datatype "hexfloat" ("typeset -X
  varname")
The "typeset" builtin has a new option "-X" to define a floating-point
variable which uses the same floating-point representation as
printf "%a" (hexadecimal floating point representation). The option
is intended to be used in cases where the values should be permanently
stored or passed to other applications without suffering the loss in
precision caused by a base2--->base10--->base2 conversion chain.
All shell facilities and C99/XPG6 conformant applications which accept
floating-point values accept the hexfloat format.


## Part 1.4: New reserved options for "typeset".
The typeset options "-T", "-h" and "-C" are reserved for future usage.


## Part 1.5: New ksh93 math functions "ceil":
Function name  | Prototype                            | see manual page
---------------+--------------------------------------+-----------------
          ceil |        float             ceil(float) |       ceil(3m)
(note: the datatypes "integer" and "float" refer to the "integer" and
"float" datatypes in ksh93 scripts, not those in the "C" language)


## Part 1.6: New reserved builtin "enum"
The builtin command "enum" is hereby reserved for future usage.

A note will be added to the ksh93(1) manual page to suggest that shell
script authors should choose shell function outside the namespace used by
reserved keywords of the ISO C99/C++/JAVA languages to avoid collisions
with future enhancements to ksh93.



--Boundary_(ID_BaeabEvhU/S1vUiU4FDlHA)
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--- typeset.1.txt   Fri May 23 23:03:15 2008
+++ typeset.1.txt   Fri May 23 23:03:15 2008
@@ -45,7 +45,9 @@
   expansion occurs on value.
 
 OPTIONS
   -a[type]        Indexed array. This is the default. If [type] is specified,
                   each subscript is interpreted as a value of type type. The
                   option value may be omitted.
   -b              Each name may contain binary data. Its value is the mime
                   base64 encoding of the data. It can be used with -Z, to
                   specify fixed sized fields.
+  -C              Reserved for future usage.

@@ -92,6 +94,18 @@
                   If the -Z attribute is also specified, then zeros will be
                   used as the fill character. Otherwise, spaces are used. The
                   option value may be omitted.
+  -X[n]           Floating point number represented in hexadecimal notation. n
+                  specifies the number of significant figures when the value is
+                  expanded. The option value may be omitted. The default value
+                  is 10.
+  -h              Reserved for future usage.
+  -S              When used inside a
+                  function defined with the function reserved word, the
+                  specified variables will have function static scope.
+  -T              Reserved for future usage.
   -Z[n]           Zero fill. If n is given it represents the field width. The
                   option value may be omitted.
--- ksh93.1.txt	Thu Jun 12 00:13:19 2008
+++ ksh93.1.txt	Thu Jun 12 00:15:00 2008
@@ -3252,6 +3252,11 @@
      516972-0.
 
 CAVEATS
+     It is  recommended  that  ksh93  scripts should choose shell
+     function  names  outside  the  namespace  used  by  reserved
+     keywords  of the ISO C99, C++ and JAVA  languages  to  avoid
+     collisions with future enhancements to ksh93.
+
      If a command is executed, and then a command with  the  same
      name  is  installed in a directory in the search path before
      the directory where the  original  command  was  found,  the

--Boundary_(ID_BaeabEvhU/S1vUiU4FDlHA)
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 filename=ksh93_integration_update1_Amendments_1_PSARC_2008_344_case_update001.diff.txt

Index: onepager.txt
===================================================================
--- onepager.txt	(revision 1067)
+++ onepager.txt	(working copy)
@@ -17,12 +17,12 @@
 1) Update of ksh93 from upstream release ast-ksh.2007-12-15 to
   ast-ksh-2008-05-22
 1.1) Update of ksh93
-1.2) New "typeset" variable storage qualifier for function
+1.2) New "typeset" variable storage qualifier for function-static
+	variables ("typeset -S varname")
 1.3) New floating-point datatype "hexfloat" ("typeset -X varname)
 1.4) New reserved options for "typeset".
 1.5) New ksh93 math functions "ceil":
-1.5) New reserved builtin "enum"
-2) Project-private location for shell function library
+1.6) New reserved builtin "enum"
 
 
 
@@ -54,7 +54,20 @@
 no suffix means its "stable" (e.g. ready for production usage) and
 '+' means its a bugfixed stable version etc.).
 
+Note that the team has invested _significant_ amounts of time to ensure
+the quality requirements for Solaris, doing both manual and automated
+testing, e.g. testing ksh93 using it's own test suite (47 tests) in 53
+different locales, one time as plain script and one time as compiled
+script (resulting in 4982 test runs), improving the test suite,
+enabling libast-internal memory corruption checking (similar to what
+libumem does), developing own additions to the test suite and running
+the standards test suites agains it, too.
+Manual testing includes basic usability exists covering languages like
+Japanese and Chinese (UTF-8 and GB18030), testing whether the generated
+binaries work as /sbin/sh and /usr/bin/ksh in the Indiana distribution
+and whether the binaries can be used to build OS/Net.
 
+
 ## Part 1.2: New "typeset" variable storage qualifier for function
   static variables ("typeset -S varname")
 The "typeset" builtin has a new option "-S" to declare a variable
@@ -85,34 +98,12 @@
 "float" datatypes in ksh93 scripts, not those in the "C" language)
 
 
-## Part 1.5: New reserved builtin "enum"
+## Part 1.6: New reserved builtin "enum"
 The builtin command "enum" is hereby reserved for future usage.
 
+A note will be added to the ksh93(1) manual page to suggest that shell
+script authors should choose shell function outside the namespace used by
+reserved keywords of the ISO C99/C++/JAVA languages to avoid collisions
+with future enhancements to ksh93.
 
-### Part 2: Project-private location for shell function library
-/usr/lib/shell/ is reserved as project private location, mainly to
-build a (platform/architecture-specific) library of dynamically
-loadable shell functions in a similar form as java packages.
 
-For example the opensolaris.org networking team might store HTTP
-protocol handling functions under 
-"/usr/lib/shell/sh/funclib/org/opensolaris/net/http/" (e.g.
-/usr/lib/shell/sh/... for is for POSIX shells,
-/usr/lib/shell/zsh/... for modules which use "zsh" syntax,
-/usr/lib/shell/bash/ for modules which use "bash" syntax etc.)
-and the shell would access modules in this directory via adding
-this path to the "function path", e.g.
-FPATH+=":/usr/lib/shell/ksh/funclib/org/opensolaris/net/http/" (note
-that shell functions loaded via this way will be _bound_ to this
-FPATH element (the same way as ksh93 binds builtin commands to
-specific PATH elements) only be visible as long as FPATH contains
-a matching path entry - removing the FPATH entry will disable the
-functions (but not unload them), re-adding the same path will
-make the functions accessible again (this allows that multiple
-groups/organisations may use the same function/module names without
-having namespace collisions)).
-The interfaces and modules provided by this API will be
-offered for ARC contracts and later (after some "soaking" period)
-opened-up on case-by-case basis.
-
-
Index: manpage_diff.txt
===================================================================
--- manpage_diff.txt	(revision 1066)
+++ manpage_diff.txt	(working copy)
@@ -27,3 +27,17 @@
 +  -T              Reserved for future usage.
    -Z[n]           Zero fill. If n is given it represents the field width. The
                    option value may be omitted.
+--- ksh93.1.txt	Thu Jun 12 00:13:19 2008
++++ ksh93.1.txt	Thu Jun 12 00:15:00 2008
+@@ -3252,6 +3252,11 @@
+      516972-0.
+ 
+ CAVEATS
++     It is  recommended  that  ksh93  scripts should choose shell
++     function  names  outside  the  namespace  used  by  reserved
++     keywords  of the ISO C99, C++ and JAVA  languages  to  avoid
++     collisions with future enhancements to ksh93.
++
+      If a command is executed, and then a command with  the  same
+      name  is  installed in a directory in the search path before
+      the directory where the  original  command  was  found,  the

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Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 01:26:12 +0200
From: Roland Mainz <roland.mainz@nrubsig.org>
Subject: Updated spec for [PSARC/2008/344 FastTrack timeout 06/03/2008] / was:
 Re: [ksh93-integration-discuss] ksh93 Integration Update 1 Amendments
 1[PSARC/2008/344 FastTrack timeout 06/03/2008]
Sender: gisburn@jupiterb48.nrubsig.org
To: Korn Shell 93 integration/migration project discussion
 <ksh93-integration-discuss@opensolaris.org>
Cc: PSARC-ext@sun.com, Alan Coopersmith <Alan.Coopersmith@SFBay.Sun.COM>
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Alan Coopersmith wrote:
> 
> I'm sponsoring this fast-track request on behalf of the
> ksh93-integration project.
> Please note that this is an *open* case.
[snip]

As discussed in today's ARC phone call...
... attached is the updated text for "onepager.txt" and
"manpage.diff.txt" and the diff from the old to the new version
("ksh93_integration_update1_Amendments_1_PSARC_2008_344_case_update001.diff.txt")
...

----

Bye,
Roland

-- 
  __ .  . __
 (o.\ \/ /.o) roland.mainz@nrubsig.org
  \__\/\/__/  MPEG specialist, C&&JAVA&&Sun&&Unix programmer
  /O /==\ O\  TEL +49 641 7950090
 (;O/ \/ \O;)

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Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name=onepager.txt
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Content-disposition: inline; filename=onepager.txt

I'm sponsoring this fast-track request on behalf of the
ksh93-integration project.
Please note that this is an *open* case.

The release binding is the same as with the previous ksh93-integration project:
a patch/micro release of Solaris delivering through OS/Net
Stability levels are as described below.

Additional materials (man pages and diffs) can be found in the
'materials' subdirectory.



This project is an amendment to the Korn Shell 93 Integration project
update 1 ARC case (PSARC/2008/094) specifying the following additional
interfaces:
1) Update of ksh93 from upstream release ast-ksh.2007-12-15 to
  ast-ksh-2008-05-22
1.1) Update of ksh93
1.2) New "typeset" variable storage qualifier for function-static
	variables ("typeset -S varname")
1.3) New floating-point datatype "hexfloat" ("typeset -X varname)
1.4) New reserved options for "typeset".
1.5) New ksh93 math functions "ceil":
1.6) New reserved builtin "enum"



Bug/RFE Number(s):

6619428 RFE: Update ksh93 in Solaris to ast-ksh.2007-10-15 (or higher)
6601968 RFE: Add /usr/lib/shell/ksh/ as a place to store loadable
        shell functions



Interface		        Stability        Description                             
---------		        ---------        -----------  
/usr/lib/shell/                 Project private  <see below>
<new C99 math function "ceil">  Commited         C99 math functions



### Part 1: Update of ksh93 from upstream release ast-ksh.2007-12-15 to
ast-ksh-2008-05-22


## Part 1.1: Update of ksh93
The 1.1 portion of this project is the update of ksh93 from
ast-ksh.2007-12-15 to ast-ksh-2008-05-22 which marks the update from
ksh93 version 's+' to version 't-' (AST/ksh93 uses the (latin)
alphabet for its version number, e.g. version 'a', version 'b' etc. ;
the '+'/'-' means the stabilty status, e.g. '-' means its "alpha",
no suffix means its "stable" (e.g. ready for production usage) and
'+' means its a bugfixed stable version etc.).

Note that the team has invested _significant_ amounts of time to ensure
the quality requirements for Solaris, doing both manual and automated
testing, e.g. testing ksh93 using it's own test suite (47 tests) in 53
different locales, one time as plain script and one time as compiled
script (resulting in 4982 test runs), improving the test suite,
enabling libast-internal memory corruption checking (similar to what
libumem does), developing own additions to the test suite and running
the standards test suites agains it, too.
Manual testing includes basic usability exists covering languages like
Japanese and Chinese (UTF-8 and GB18030), testing whether the generated
binaries work as /sbin/sh and /usr/bin/ksh in the Indiana distribution
and whether the binaries can be used to build OS/Net.


## Part 1.2: New "typeset" variable storage qualifier for function
  static variables ("typeset -S varname")
The "typeset" builtin has a new option "-S" to declare a variable
as "static", similar to |static| variables in a ISO C/C++ code.


## Part 1.3: New floating-point datatype "hexfloat" ("typeset -X
  varname")
The "typeset" builtin has a new option "-X" to define a floating-point
variable which uses the same floating-point representation as
printf "%a" (hexadecimal floating point representation). The option
is intended to be used in cases where the values should be permanently
stored or passed to other applications without suffering the loss in
precision caused by a base2--->base10--->base2 conversion chain.
All shell facilities and C99/XPG6 conformant applications which accept
floating-point values accept the hexfloat format.


## Part 1.4: New reserved options for "typeset".
The typeset options "-T", "-h" and "-C" are reserved for future usage.


## Part 1.5: New ksh93 math functions "ceil":
Function name  | Prototype                            | see manual page
---------------+--------------------------------------+-----------------
          ceil |        float             ceil(float) |       ceil(3m)
(note: the datatypes "integer" and "float" refer to the "integer" and
"float" datatypes in ksh93 scripts, not those in the "C" language)


## Part 1.6: New reserved builtin "enum"
The builtin command "enum" is hereby reserved for future usage.

A note will be added to the ksh93(1) manual page to suggest that shell
script authors should choose shell function outside the namespace used by
reserved keywords of the ISO C99/C++/JAVA languages to avoid collisions
with future enhancements to ksh93.



--Boundary_(ID_BaeabEvhU/S1vUiU4FDlHA)
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Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
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--- typeset.1.txt   Fri May 23 23:03:15 2008
+++ typeset.1.txt   Fri May 23 23:03:15 2008
@@ -45,7 +45,9 @@
   expansion occurs on value.
 
 OPTIONS
   -a[type]        Indexed array. This is the default. If [type] is specified,
                   each subscript is interpreted as a value of type type. The
                   option value may be omitted.
   -b              Each name may contain binary data. Its value is the mime
                   base64 encoding of the data. It can be used with -Z, to
                   specify fixed sized fields.
+  -C              Reserved for future usage.

@@ -92,6 +94,18 @@
                   If the -Z attribute is also specified, then zeros will be
                   used as the fill character. Otherwise, spaces are used. The
                   option value may be omitted.
+  -X[n]           Floating point number represented in hexadecimal notation. n
+                  specifies the number of significant figures when the value is
+                  expanded. The option value may be omitted. The default value
+                  is 10.
+  -h              Reserved for future usage.
+  -S              When used inside a
+                  function defined with the function reserved word, the
+                  specified variables will have function static scope.
+  -T              Reserved for future usage.
   -Z[n]           Zero fill. If n is given it represents the field width. The
                   option value may be omitted.
--- ksh93.1.txt	Thu Jun 12 00:13:19 2008
+++ ksh93.1.txt	Thu Jun 12 00:15:00 2008
@@ -3252,6 +3252,11 @@
      516972-0.
 
 CAVEATS
+     It is  recommended  that  ksh93  scripts should choose shell
+     function  names  outside  the  namespace  used  by  reserved
+     keywords  of the ISO C99, C++ and JAVA  languages  to  avoid
+     collisions with future enhancements to ksh93.
+
      If a command is executed, and then a command with  the  same
      name  is  installed in a directory in the search path before
      the directory where the  original  command  was  found,  the

--Boundary_(ID_BaeabEvhU/S1vUiU4FDlHA)
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 name=ksh93_integration_update1_Amendments_1_PSARC_2008_344_case_update001.diff.txt
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Content-disposition: inline;
 filename=ksh93_integration_update1_Amendments_1_PSARC_2008_344_case_update001.diff.txt

Index: onepager.txt
===================================================================
--- onepager.txt	(revision 1067)
+++ onepager.txt	(working copy)
@@ -17,12 +17,12 @@
 1) Update of ksh93 from upstream release ast-ksh.2007-12-15 to
   ast-ksh-2008-05-22
 1.1) Update of ksh93
-1.2) New "typeset" variable storage qualifier for function
+1.2) New "typeset" variable storage qualifier for function-static
+	variables ("typeset -S varname")
 1.3) New floating-point datatype "hexfloat" ("typeset -X varname)
 1.4) New reserved options for "typeset".
 1.5) New ksh93 math functions "ceil":
-1.5) New reserved builtin "enum"
-2) Project-private location for shell function library
+1.6) New reserved builtin "enum"
 
 
 
@@ -54,7 +54,20 @@
 no suffix means its "stable" (e.g. ready for production usage) and
 '+' means its a bugfixed stable version etc.).
 
+Note that the team has invested _significant_ amounts of time to ensure
+the quality requirements for Solaris, doing both manual and automated
+testing, e.g. testing ksh93 using it's own test suite (47 tests) in 53
+different locales, one time as plain script and one time as compiled
+script (resulting in 4982 test runs), improving the test suite,
+enabling libast-internal memory corruption checking (similar to what
+libumem does), developing own additions to the test suite and running
+the standards test suites agains it, too.
+Manual testing includes basic usability exists covering languages like
+Japanese and Chinese (UTF-8 and GB18030), testing whether the generated
+binaries work as /sbin/sh and /usr/bin/ksh in the Indiana distribution
+and whether the binaries can be used to build OS/Net.
 
+
 ## Part 1.2: New "typeset" variable storage qualifier for function
   static variables ("typeset -S varname")
 The "typeset" builtin has a new option "-S" to declare a variable
@@ -85,34 +98,12 @@
 "float" datatypes in ksh93 scripts, not those in the "C" language)
 
 
-## Part 1.5: New reserved builtin "enum"
+## Part 1.6: New reserved builtin "enum"
 The builtin command "enum" is hereby reserved for future usage.
 
+A note will be added to the ksh93(1) manual page to suggest that shell
+script authors should choose shell function outside the namespace used by
+reserved keywords of the ISO C99/C++/JAVA languages to avoid collisions
+with future enhancements to ksh93.
 
-### Part 2: Project-private location for shell function library
-/usr/lib/shell/ is reserved as project private location, mainly to
-build a (platform/architecture-specific) library of dynamically
-loadable shell functions in a similar form as java packages.
 
-For example the opensolaris.org networking team might store HTTP
-protocol handling functions under 
-"/usr/lib/shell/sh/funclib/org/opensolaris/net/http/" (e.g.
-/usr/lib/shell/sh/... for is for POSIX shells,
-/usr/lib/shell/zsh/... for modules which use "zsh" syntax,
-/usr/lib/shell/bash/ for modules which use "bash" syntax etc.)
-and the shell would access modules in this directory via adding
-this path to the "function path", e.g.
-FPATH+=":/usr/lib/shell/ksh/funclib/org/opensolaris/net/http/" (note
-that shell functions loaded via this way will be _bound_ to this
-FPATH element (the same way as ksh93 binds builtin commands to
-specific PATH elements) only be visible as long as FPATH contains
-a matching path entry - removing the FPATH entry will disable the
-functions (but not unload them), re-adding the same path will
-make the functions accessible again (this allows that multiple
-groups/organisations may use the same function/module names without
-having namespace collisions)).
-The interfaces and modules provided by this API will be
-offered for ARC contracts and later (after some "soaking" period)
-opened-up on case-by-case basis.
-
-
Index: manpage_diff.txt
===================================================================
--- manpage_diff.txt	(revision 1066)
+++ manpage_diff.txt	(working copy)
@@ -27,3 +27,17 @@
 +  -T              Reserved for future usage.
    -Z[n]           Zero fill. If n is given it represents the field width. The
                    option value may be omitted.
+--- ksh93.1.txt	Thu Jun 12 00:13:19 2008
++++ ksh93.1.txt	Thu Jun 12 00:15:00 2008
+@@ -3252,6 +3252,11 @@
+      516972-0.
+ 
+ CAVEATS
++     It is  recommended  that  ksh93  scripts should choose shell
++     function  names  outside  the  namespace  used  by  reserved
++     keywords  of the ISO C99, C++ and JAVA  languages  to  avoid
++     collisions with future enhancements to ksh93.
++
+      If a command is executed, and then a command with  the  same
+      name  is  installed in a directory in the search path before
+      the directory where the  original  command  was  found,  the

--Boundary_(ID_BaeabEvhU/S1vUiU4FDlHA)--

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Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 16:30:59 -0700
From: "Garrett D'Amore" <gdamore@sun.com>
Subject: Re: Updated spec for [PSARC/2008/344 FastTrack timeout 06/03/2008] /
 was: Re: [ksh93-integration-discuss] ksh93 Integration Update 1 Amendments
 1[PSARC/2008/344 FastTrack timeout 06/03/2008]
In-reply-to: <48505F14.8C44E390@nrubsig.org>
Sender: Garrett.Damore@sun.com
To: Roland Mainz <roland.mainz@nrubsig.org>
Cc: Korn Shell 93 integration/migration project discussion
 <ksh93-integration-discuss@opensolaris.org>,
        PSARC-ext@sun.com, Alan Coopersmith <Alan.Coopersmith@SFBay.Sun.COM>
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Just a quick note to say, thanks for sticking with the process, Roland, 
and not giving up.  It is greatly appreciated.

    -- Garrett

Roland Mainz wrote:
> Alan Coopersmith wrote:
>   
>> I'm sponsoring this fast-track request on behalf of the
>> ksh93-integration project.
>> Please note that this is an *open* case.
>>     
> [snip]
>
> As discussed in today's ARC phone call...
> ... attached is the updated text for "onepager.txt" and
> "manpage.diff.txt" and the diff from the old to the new version
> ("ksh93_integration_update1_Amendments_1_PSARC_2008_344_case_update001.diff.txt")
> ...
>
> ----
>
> Bye,
> Roland
>
>   


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Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 16:30:59 -0700
From: "Garrett D'Amore" <gdamore@sun.com>
Subject: Re: Updated spec for [PSARC/2008/344 FastTrack timeout 06/03/2008] /
 was: Re: [ksh93-integration-discuss] ksh93 Integration Update 1 Amendments
 1[PSARC/2008/344 FastTrack timeout 06/03/2008]
In-reply-to: <48505F14.8C44E390@nrubsig.org>
Sender: Garrett.Damore@sun.com
To: Roland Mainz <roland.mainz@nrubsig.org>
Cc: Korn Shell 93 integration/migration project discussion
 <ksh93-integration-discuss@opensolaris.org>,
        PSARC-ext@sun.com, Alan Coopersmith <Alan.Coopersmith@SFBay.Sun.COM>
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Just a quick note to say, thanks for sticking with the process, Roland, 
and not giving up.  It is greatly appreciated.

    -- Garrett

Roland Mainz wrote:
> Alan Coopersmith wrote:
>   
>> I'm sponsoring this fast-track request on behalf of the
>> ksh93-integration project.
>> Please note that this is an *open* case.
>>     
> [snip]
>
> As discussed in today's ARC phone call...
> ... attached is the updated text for "onepager.txt" and
> "manpage.diff.txt" and the diff from the old to the new version
> ("ksh93_integration_update1_Amendments_1_PSARC_2008_344_case_update001.diff.txt")
> ...
>
> ----
>
> Bye,
> Roland
>
>   


From Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com Wed Jun 11 18:34:03 2008
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Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 18:33:52 -0700
From: Alan Coopersmith <Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com>
Subject: Re: Updated spec for [PSARC/2008/344 FastTrack timeout 06/03/2008] /
 was: Re: [ksh93-integration-discuss] ksh93 Integration Update 1 Amendments
 1[PSARC/2008/344 FastTrack timeout 06/03/2008]
In-reply-to: <48505F14.8C44E390@nrubsig.org>
Sender: Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com
To: Roland Mainz <roland.mainz@nrubsig.org>
Cc: Korn Shell 93 integration/migration project discussion
 <ksh93-integration-discuss@opensolaris.org>,
        PSARC-ext@sun.com, Alan Coopersmith <Alan.Coopersmith@SFBay.Sun.COM>
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Roland Mainz wrote:
> As discussed in today's ARC phone call...
> ... attached is the updated text for "onepager.txt" and
> "manpage.diff.txt" and the diff from the old to the new version
> ("ksh93_integration_update1_Amendments_1_PSARC_2008_344_case_update001.diff.txt")

Thank you Roland.   I have archived these in the case materials now
as the final spec:

PSARC/2008/344/materials/manpage_diff.txt
PSARC/2008/344/materials/spec.txt

Since these just clarify the points raised during the discussion, and
provide the change agreed upon during today's meeting (removing the
/usr/lib/shell portion from this case and deferring it to a later case),
I have marked the case closed approved, as agreed upon in today's PSARC
meeting.

-- 
	-Alan Coopersmith-           alan.coopersmith@sun.com
	 Sun Microsystems, Inc. - X Window System Engineering


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Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 18:33:52 -0700
From: Alan Coopersmith <Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com>
Subject: Re: Updated spec for [PSARC/2008/344 FastTrack timeout 06/03/2008] /
 was: Re: [ksh93-integration-discuss] ksh93 Integration Update 1 Amendments
 1[PSARC/2008/344 FastTrack timeout 06/03/2008]
In-reply-to: <48505F14.8C44E390@nrubsig.org>
Sender: Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com
To: Roland Mainz <roland.mainz@nrubsig.org>
Cc: Korn Shell 93 integration/migration project discussion
 <ksh93-integration-discuss@opensolaris.org>,
        PSARC-ext@sun.com, Alan Coopersmith <Alan.Coopersmith@SFBay.Sun.COM>
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Roland Mainz wrote:
> As discussed in today's ARC phone call...
> ... attached is the updated text for "onepager.txt" and
> "manpage.diff.txt" and the diff from the old to the new version
> ("ksh93_integration_update1_Amendments_1_PSARC_2008_344_case_update001.diff.txt")

Thank you Roland.   I have archived these in the case materials now
as the final spec:

PSARC/2008/344/materials/manpage_diff.txt
PSARC/2008/344/materials/spec.txt

Since these just clarify the points raised during the discussion, and
provide the change agreed upon during today's meeting (removing the
/usr/lib/shell portion from this case and deferring it to a later case),
I have marked the case closed approved, as agreed upon in today's PSARC
meeting.

-- 
	-Alan Coopersmith-           alan.coopersmith@sun.com
	 Sun Microsystems, Inc. - X Window System Engineering


From roland.mainz@nrubsig.org Thu Jun 19 12:15:51 2008
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Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 21:15:36 +0200
From: Roland Mainz <roland.mainz@nrubsig.org>
Subject: Re: [ksh93-integration-discuss] ksh93 Integration Update 1 Amendments1
 [PSARC/2008/344 FastTrack timeout 06/03/2008]
Sender: gisburn@jupiterb48.nrubsig.org
To: James Carlson <james.d.carlson@sun.com>
Cc: Korn Shell 93 integration/migration project discussion
 <ksh93-integration-discuss@opensolaris.org>,
        Alan Coopersmith <Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com>, PSARC-ext@sun.com
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James Carlson wrote:
[sorry, this one was stuck&&forgotten in my Drafts/-folder]
> Garrett D'Amore writes:
> > Have the upstream providers given thought to dealing with changes like
> > this and their impact on already-deployed scripts?  (Maybe there aren't
> > any that we care about yet, since our ksh93 is still so new.)
> 
> We've already had such problems.  See CR 6667990 for one such
> accident; you can't call your local function "start" and upgrade
> safely from Sun's old ksh88 to ksh93.

1. AFAIK the "quagga" builtin has problem with the ksh(88|93) shell
_alias_ called "stop"
2. The issue is caused by the switch from Bourne shell to ksh, not by
ksh93 itself. ksh88 already had the "stop" alias:
-- snip --
$ /usr/bin/ksh -c 'alias' | fgrep "stop"
stop='kill -STOP'
-- snip --
... and other shells have the same problem. And the trouble is that
"stop" is an shell "alias" which pretty much overrides anything else (as
a future countermeasure we'll get "shlint" at some point (once "shcomp"
is in the tree) to check for such common dragon-filled pits in the
future (in the meantime you can run your script against $ shcomp -n
<scriptname> /dev/null # ...)).

> > I'm concerned, going forward, as ksh93 syntax becomes more prevalent,
> > that bringing in changes like the above may have unintended consequences
> > in scripts or even ON delivered components, which we cannot easily find
> > or test.
> 
> This probably isn't a good place to design a solution, but I share the
> sense of unease.  It puts script writers on shaky ground if they can't
> either specify a known environment or predict what's "safe."

Umpf... IMO "safe" is what's described in the POSIX shell standard and
http://www.opensolaris.org/os/project/shell/shellstyle/ (that's why I
wrote that document...).

----

Bye,
Roland

P.S.: Setting Reply-To: to ksh93-integration-discuss@opensolaris.org to
get this off he ARC list...

-- 
  __ .  . __
 (o.\ \/ /.o) roland.mainz@nrubsig.org
  \__\/\/__/  MPEG specialist, C&&JAVA&&Sun&&Unix programmer
  /O /==\ O\  TEL +49 641 7950090
 (;O/ \/ \O;)

From dgk@research.att.com Mon Jun 30 07:55:57 2008
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Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 10:55:45 -0400
From: David Korn <dgk@research.att.com>
Subject: Re: Re: [busybox-dev] [ksh93-integration-discuss] ksh93 Integration
 Update 1 Amendments1 [PSARC/2008/344 FastTrack timeout 06/03/2008]
To: Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com, busybox-dev@opensolaris.org,
        Darren.Moffat@sun.com, james.d.carlson@sun.com,
        ksh93-integration-discuss@opensolaris.org, PSARC-ext@sun.com
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cc:  Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com  Darren.Moffat@sun.com james.d.carlson@sun.com          ksh93-integration-discuss@opensolaris.org  PSARC-ext@sun.com
Subject: Re: Re: [busybox-dev] [ksh93-integration-discuss] ksh93 Integration  Update 1 Amendments1 [PSARC/2008/344 FastTrack timeout 06/03/2008]
--------


> > > Did you thing about the fact that ksh93 is _really_ big and that people who
> > > like to use OpenSolaris in embedded environments probably cannot use ksh93 f
> or
> > > this reason? 
> >
> > Erm... the issue is the other way around - the use of builtin commands
> > enables ksh93 to work much faster and with less memory (since you can
> > avoid awk/sed/tr/etc. completely and even avoid temporary files for
> 
> You would need to prove this on an embedded system. I am not convinced at all.
> 
> If you run huge shell scripts like "configure", I would expect the ksh to be
> faster but for the scripts that Solaris uses for startup, things look much 
> different.
> 

We replaced /bin/sh and the 35 commands in libcmd by ksh93 and all the
libraries on a hand held device a couple of years ago and found
that it took less space, not more.  We used a dynamically linked ksh93
so that only one copy of libcmd and libast were needed.

It also ran faster.

If you want to do the math yourself.  Add the following sizes:
	ksh93 (dynamicall linked) libshell.so libcmd.so libast.so libdll.so
and then subtract the size of thw following:
	basename cat chgrp chmod chown cksum cmp comm cp cut date dirname
	expr fmt fold getconf head id join ln logname md5sum mkdir mkfifo
	mv paste pathchk rev rm rmdir sh stty sum sync tail tee tty uname
	uniq wc

If some of these are hard links on your system, just subtract one of them.

David Korn
dgk@research.att.com