From Tue Aug 19 12:02:35 2008 Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2008 12:02:35 -0700 (PDT) From: Postmaster Subject: Message from mail server Content-Length: 94 Mime-Version: 1.0 Status: RO X-IMAP: 1219172555 36 Delete. This is a system message. --END+PSEUDO-- From sacadmin Fri Aug 1 10:37:00 2008 Received: from sac.sfbay.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m71Hb08M026740; Fri, 1 Aug 2008 10:37:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from ab196087@localhost) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/Submit) id m71Hb0KN026736; Fri, 1 Aug 2008 10:37:00 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2008 10:37:00 -0700 (PDT) From: Ali Bahrami Message-Id: <200808011737.m71Hb0KN026736@sac.sfbay.sun.com> To: PSARC-record@sac.sfbay.sun.com Subject: GNU emacs [PSARC/2008/494 FastTrack timeout 8/8/2008] Content-Length: 544 Status: RO X-Status: $$$$ X-UID: 0000000001 Template Version: @(#)sac_nextcase 1.66 04/17/08 SMI This information is Copyright 2008 Sun Microsystems 1. Introduction 1.1. Project/Component Working Name: GNU emacs 1.2. Name of Document Author/Supplier: Author: Ali Bahrami 1.3 Date of This Document: 01 August, 2008 4. Technical Description See the case directory for more detail 6. Resources and Schedule 6.4. Steering Committee requested information 6.4.1. Consolidation C-team Name: sfw 6.5. ARC review type: FastTrack 6.6. ARC Exposure: open From Ali.Bahrami@sun.com Fri Aug 1 12:22:31 2008 Received: from newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (newsunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.245]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m71JMVnl029677 for ; Fri, 1 Aug 2008 12:22:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m71JMUtE019863 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:psarc-ext@sun.com>; Fri, 1 Aug 2008 13:22:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0K4X00C07SHHWO00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Fri, 01 Aug 2008 12:22:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.98.31]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0K4X00JF5SHH7XD0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Fri, 01 Aug 2008 12:22:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fe-amer-10.sun.com ([192.18.109.80]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m71JMTF6009134 for ; Fri, 01 Aug 2008 19:22:29 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.mail-amer.sun.com by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0K4X00F01R8LO300@mail-amer.sun.com> (original mail from Ali.Bahrami@Sun.COM) for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Fri, 01 Aug 2008 13:22:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [172.20.25.67] by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0K4X00CB1SHECZG0@mail-amer.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Fri, 01 Aug 2008 13:22:26 -0600 (MDT) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2008 13:22:26 -0600 From: Ali Bahrami Subject: PSARC/2008/494 GNU emacs Sender: Ali.Bahrami@sun.com To: psarc-ext@sun.com Message-id: <48936272.40101@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.12 (X11/20080228) Content-Length: 9120 Status: RO X-Status: $$$$ X-UID: 0000000002 I am sponsoring the following fast track for myself - timeout 8/8/2008. The binding is Minor. Most interfaces are uncommitted (exceptions are detailed below). ----------------------------------------------------------------------- This case proposes to integrate the GNU emacs text editor into the SFW consolidation. GNU emacs comes from the GNU project of the Free Software Foundation (FSF): http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs Note that there are two emacs variants in wide use, GNU emacs, and Xemacs. This case is for GNU emacs only. The initial version to be integrated will be 22.1. This is not the newest available version of emacs. It is however, the last version released under the GPL version 2 license. I anticipate that we will periodically update the version of emacs we distribute, but any such updates must wait until Sun works out how Solaris can use GPLv3 code. Emacs will be delivered in four packages: SUNWemacs Core distribution, containing all files necessary to run emacs, but not including the actual emacs binaries. SUNWemacs-el Uncompiled LISP source files (.el), of interest to emacs programmers only. The compiled versions of these files (.elc) are included in the core SUNWemacs package. SUNWemacs-x Emacs binaries built with X11 support using the Athena (Xaw) toolkit. This package installs emacs as /usr/bin/emacs-x. SUNWemacs-nox Emacs binaries built as a pure tty based program, without any linkage to the system X11 libraries. This package installs emacs as /usr/bin/emacs-nox. This decomposition follows the pattern set by Linux distributions such as Ubuntu. Placing the executables in their own separate packages serves two goals: 1) Provide an extensible way to support different toolkit variants of emacs as they arise. 2) Allow for system minimization. Missing from the above discussion are emacs binaries built using the GTK toolkit. GTK is the most desirable default for Solaris, as it is the toolkit used by much of our Gnome based desktop environment. At this time, the GTK version of emacs 22.1 built for Solaris has problems that make it unsuitable for delivery. However, I wish to make the eventual delivery of it, or of other toolkit variants, part of this case. If that should come to pass: - The package name will be SUNWemacs-gtk - The executable will be /usr/bin/emacs-gtk - The /usr/bin/emacs shell script will be updated to use it if installed, as with the other versions. Any other toolkit variant that may appear in the future would be handled similarly. The /usr/bin/emacs command is a shell script, delivered by SUNWemacs. This script execs the "best" version of emacs installed on the system, where best is defined as: 1) If /usr/bin/emacs-x exists, exec it. 2) If /usr/bin/emacs-nox exists, exec it. 3) If no emacs executables are present, issue an error to that effect and exit(1). This use of a shell script for /usr/bin/emacs allows us to seamlessly adjust to different systems having different executables installed. It also allows us to introduce a new toolkit variant (such as GTK), and to make that version the new default. Although /usr/bin/emacs imposes our definition of "best", users are able to run any version of emacs they wish, by directly using the full name (emacs-x, emacs-nox, etc). Files delivered: ---------------- The files to be delivered are listed below, by package. The details of the files found under /usr/lib and /usr/share have been elided here, due to the number of files involved. All such files are found under directories named 'emacs', which establishes a filesystem namespace below which only emacs-related files are found. The Sysv package file lists for these packages, containing a complete list of all files to be delivered, are available in the case materials. The names of these files are prefixed with their package name (i.e. SUNWemacs.prototype_com). SUNWemacs: /usr/bin b2m ebrowse emacs emacsclient grep-changelog rcs-checkin /usr/gnu/bin: ctags etags /usr/gnu/share/man/man1: ctags.1 etags.1 /usr/lib/emacs/... (private to emacs executables files) /usr/share/emacs/... (Non-executable files used by emacs) /usr/share/info/... (Documentation in GNU info format) /usr/share/man/man1: b2m.1 ebrowse.1 emacs-nox.1 emacs-x.1 emacs.1 emacsclient.1 grep-changelog.1 rcs-checkin.1 SUNWemacs-x: /usr/bin emacs-x (this is really isaexec) emacs-x-22.1 (hard link to emacs-x) /usr/bin/MACH32 (MACH32 is one of: i86, sparcv7) emacs-x emacs-x-22.1 (hard link to emacs-x) /usr/bin/MACH64 (MACH64 is one of: amd64, sparcv9) emacs-x emacs-x-22.1 (hard link to emacs-x) SUNWemacs-nox: /usr/bin emacs-nox (this is really isaexec) emacs-nox-22.1 (hard link to emacs-nox) /usr/bin/MACH32 (MACH32 is one of: i86, sparcv7) emacs-nox emacs-nox-22.1 (hard link to emacs-nox) /usr/bin/MACH64 (MACH64 is one of: amd64, sparcv9) emacs-nox emacs-nox-22.1 (hard link to emacs-nox) SUNWemacs-el /usr/share/emacs/.../*.el.gz (compressed LISP files) Exported Interfaces: -------------------- All interfaces not explicitly listed here are Uncommitted. This includes package names, and file paths: /usr/bin/emacs Committed Executable (script) location /usr/share/man/man1/emacs Committed Primary manpage location /usr/lib/emacs/... Project Private Private executable files 32 and 64-bit Binaries: ----------------------- The core of emacs is a LISP interpreter, and most of the system is written in LISP. The implementation of this interpreter imposes a limit on the maximum file size than can be edited, as described here: http://www.emacswiki.org/cgi-bin/wiki/EmacsFileSizeLimit In a 32-bit binary, this limit is currently 128MB, large enough for most files, but not all (I frequently hit it when looking at OSnet nighly build logs). The limit in a 64-bit emacs binary is vastly larger. Hence, it is highly desirable to run the 64-bit version when possible. We will deliver both 32 and 64-bit emacs binaries whenever possible, using isaexec in the usual way to select the best version to execute at runtime. This only applies to the main emacs binaries. The emacs package delivers several auxiliary programs. I do not believe there is a technical advantage to having 64-bit versions of these, so they will be delivered as 32-bit only. The 64-bit emacs binaries can interoperate with use these 32-bit programs, so there is no net loss of functionality. No /var/games/emacs: -------------------- The standard emacs package from the FSF delivers two files into /var/games/emacs: /var/games/emacs/snake-scores /var/games/emacs/tetris-scores To be useful, these files require the update-game-score program (delivered with emacs as a private binary) to be setuid. Linux distributions that package emacs usually do not make update-game-score setuid, and do not deliver these empty score files. We will follow their lead, and do the same. An end user is free to make update-game-score setuid and create the score files. Versions Shown Are Subject To Change: ------------------------------------- In the list of delivered files above, many files include the emacs version (22.1). When the version of emacs delivered is updated, these files will go away, to be replaced by equivalent files using the new version. Similarly, the precise list of files delivered into /usr/lib/emacs /usr/share/emacs /usr/share/info can be expected to differ between versions. ctags/etags in /usr/gnu/bin: ---------------------------- Emacs comes with its own version of ctags, and an emacs-specific variant named etags. Solaris already has a command (/usr/bin/ctags) that does the same thing as the emacs ctags, but these are not fully compatible programs. Hence, the emacs ctags will be delivered into /usr/gnu/bin. There is yet another implementation of tags functionality called "Exuberant Ctags", that is reputed to be superior to both the existing Solaris, and emacs versions http://ctags.sourceforge.net The potential exists to replace the Solaris ctags with exuberant. Furthermore, when exuberant is linked under the name 'etags', it automatically implements the emacs etags functionality. This means that exuberant might someday replace both the Solaris and emacs tags programs. Although the emacs etags could be integrated into /usr/bin today, I have decided to integrate it into /usr/gnu/bin instead: - In parallel with ctags - To leave the /usr/bin/etags name available for Exuberant Ctags to use. Manpages in Case Materials: --------------------------- The manpages for all the programs visible in /usr/bin and /usr/gnu/bin are included in the case materials. The GNU emacs package does not supply man pages for b2m, ebrowse, grep-changelog, or rcs-checkin, so I have written these from scratch. In addition, I have provided simple manpages for the toolkit variant names (emacs-x, emacs-nox, ...) that reference the main emacs.1 manpage. From John.Plocher@sun.com Fri Aug 1 12:36:08 2008 Received: from sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m71Ja7op000069 for ; Fri, 1 Aug 2008 12:36:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m71Ja3PA005144 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:psarc-ext@sun.com>; Sat, 2 Aug 2008 03:36:06 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0K4X00E03T45QS00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Fri, 01 Aug 2008 12:36:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sca-es-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.43.133]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0K4X00JF8T447XE0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Fri, 01 Aug 2008 12:36:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fe-sfbay-10.sun.com ([192.18.43.129]) by sca-es-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m71Ja4Da017863 for ; Fri, 01 Aug 2008 12:36:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.fe-sfbay-10.sun.com by fe-sfbay-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0K4X00201SZXUC00@fe-sfbay-10.sun.com> (original mail from John.Plocher@Sun.COM) for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Fri, 01 Aug 2008 12:36:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wp668.SFBay.Sun.COM ([129.146.226.219]) by fe-sfbay-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0K4X00LG8T44VTB0@fe-sfbay-10.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Fri, 01 Aug 2008 12:36:04 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2008 12:36:04 -0700 From: John Plocher Subject: Re: PSARC/2008/494 GNU emacs In-reply-to: <48936272.40101@Sun.COM> Sender: John.Plocher@sun.com To: Ali Bahrami Cc: psarc-ext@sun.com Message-id: <489365A4.2020609@Sun.Com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <48936272.40101@Sun.COM> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.14 (Macintosh/20080421) Content-Length: 411 Status: RO X-Status: $$$$ X-UID: 0000000003 Ali Bahrami wrote: > Note that there are two emacs variants in wide use, GNU emacs, > and Xemacs. This case is for GNU emacs only. > SUNWemacs > SUNWemacs-el > SUNWemacs-x > SUNWemacs-nox Given that there will probably also be a call for having Xemacs, wouldn't it be better to use package names that make it obvious which one this is? Maybe SUNWgnuemacs or GNUemacs or .... -John From carlsonj@phorcys.east.sun.com Fri Aug 1 12:54:15 2008 Received: from sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m71JsECR000457 for ; Fri, 1 Aug 2008 12:54:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m71Jrxpa010913; Sat, 2 Aug 2008 03:54:10 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0K4X00G17TY7PJ00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Fri, 01 Aug 2008 12:54:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com ([129.148.174.143]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0K4X00G7PTY6IT10@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Fri, 01 Aug 2008 12:54:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.3+Sun/8.14.3) with ESMTP id m71Js6Qp024166; Fri, 01 Aug 2008 15:54:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from carlsonj@localhost) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.3+Sun/8.14.3/Submit) id m71Js57c024163; Fri, 01 Aug 2008 15:54:05 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2008 15:54:05 -0400 From: James Carlson Subject: Re: PSARC/2008/494 GNU emacs In-reply-to: <489365A4.2020609@Sun.Com> To: John Plocher Cc: Ali Bahrami , psarc-ext@sun.com Message-id: <18579.27101.949792.145396@gargle.gargle.HOWL> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: VM 7.01 under Emacs 21.3.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <48936272.40101@Sun.COM> <489365A4.2020609@Sun.Com> Content-Length: 1020 Status: RO X-Status: $$$$ X-UID: 0000000004 John Plocher writes: > Ali Bahrami wrote: > > Note that there are two emacs variants in wide use, GNU emacs, > > and Xemacs. This case is for GNU emacs only. > > > > SUNWemacs > > SUNWemacs-el > > SUNWemacs-x > > SUNWemacs-nox > > > Given that there will probably also be a call for having Xemacs, > wouldn't it be better to use package names that make it obvious > which one this is? Maybe SUNWgnuemacs or GNUemacs or .... It probably shouldn't be "GNUemacs," unless Mr. GNU is building the package. A deeper question is the value of integrating something that we know from the outset will be essentially a frozen snapshot dust collector due to Sun's internal legal issues. Wouldn't it be better to have someone outside of Sun who isn't afraid of GPLv3 do the work? -- James Carlson, Solaris Networking Sun Microsystems / 35 Network Drive 71.232W Vox +1 781 442 2084 MS UBUR02-212 / Burlington MA 01803-2757 42.496N Fax +1 781 442 1677 From sommerfeld@sun.com Fri Aug 1 12:57:48 2008 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m71JvlVD000480 for ; Fri, 1 Aug 2008 12:57:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m71JvR1r029259; Fri, 1 Aug 2008 20:57:46 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0K4X00H03U476A00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Fri, 01 Aug 2008 12:57:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dm-east-02.east.sun.com ([129.148.13.5]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0K4X00GRVU46IT20@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Fri, 01 Aug 2008 12:57:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.SFBay.Sun.COM (dhcp-umpk17-109-36.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.109.36]) by dm-east-02.east.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m71Jvfmo052627; Fri, 01 Aug 2008 15:57:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.SFBay.Sun.COM (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.14.3+Sun/8.14.3) with ESMTP id m71Jvd5N005550; Fri, 01 Aug 2008 12:57:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from sommerfeld@localhost) by localhost.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.14.3+Sun/8.14.3/Submit) id m71Jvdrx005547; Fri, 01 Aug 2008 12:57:39 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2008 12:57:38 -0700 From: Bill Sommerfeld Subject: Re: PSARC/2008/494 GNU emacs In-reply-to: <489365A4.2020609@Sun.Com> To: John Plocher Cc: Ali Bahrami , psarc-ext@sun.com Message-id: <1217620658.1116.10.camel@localhost> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.22.2 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <48936272.40101@Sun.COM> <489365A4.2020609@Sun.Com> X-Authentication-warning: localhost.SFBay.Sun.COM: sommerfeld set sender to sommerfeld@sun.com using -f Content-Length: 872 Status: RO X-Status: $$$$ X-UID: 0000000005 On Fri, 2008-08-01 at 12:36 -0700, John Plocher wrote: > Ali Bahrami wrote: > > Note that there are two emacs variants in wide use, GNU emacs, > > and Xemacs. This case is for GNU emacs only. > > > > SUNWemacs > > SUNWemacs-el > > SUNWemacs-x > > SUNWemacs-nox > > > Given that there will probably also be a call for having Xemacs, > wouldn't it be better to use package names that make it obvious > which one this is? Maybe SUNWgnuemacs or GNUemacs or .... I'd much rather see consistency between the package name and the name of the primary command delivered by the package. GNU emacs is "emacs", Xemacs is "xemacs". As best as I can tell from a quick survey, this also flunks the "familiarity" test -- package names of "emacs" (without "gnu") and "xemacs" seem to be the existing practice in linux and *BSD distributions. - Bill From Ali.Bahrami@sun.com Fri Aug 1 13:03:26 2008 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m71K3QS3000697 for ; Fri, 1 Aug 2008 13:03:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m71K3PnL016634 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:psarc-ext@sun.com>; Fri, 1 Aug 2008 13:03:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0K4X00I0LUDOU300@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Fri, 01 Aug 2008 14:03:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.98.43]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0K4X00CGGUDOP140@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Fri, 01 Aug 2008 14:03:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from fe-amer-09.sun.com ([192.18.109.79]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m71K3O4P008646 for ; Fri, 01 Aug 2008 20:03:24 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.mail-amer.sun.com by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0K4X00N01UAA2Y00@mail-amer.sun.com> (original mail from Ali.Bahrami@Sun.COM) for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Fri, 01 Aug 2008 14:03:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [172.20.25.67] by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0K4X002V8UDM1W60@mail-amer.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Fri, 01 Aug 2008 14:03:22 -0600 (MDT) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2008 14:03:22 -0600 From: Ali Bahrami Subject: Re: PSARC/2008/494 GNU emacs In-reply-to: <489365A4.2020609@Sun.Com> Sender: Ali.Bahrami@sun.com To: John Plocher Cc: psarc-ext@sun.com Message-id: <48936C0A.3050408@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <48936272.40101@Sun.COM> <489365A4.2020609@Sun.Com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.12 (X11/20080228) Content-Length: 1185 Status: RO X-Status: $$$$ X-UID: 0000000006 John Plocher wrote: > Ali Bahrami wrote: >> Note that there are two emacs variants in wide use, GNU emacs, >> and Xemacs. This case is for GNU emacs only. > > >> SUNWemacs >> SUNWemacs-el >> SUNWemacs-x >> SUNWemacs-nox > > > Given that there will probably also be a call for having Xemacs, > wouldn't it be better to use package names that make it obvious > which one this is? Maybe SUNWgnuemacs or GNUemacs or .... > > -John > _______________________________________________ > opensolaris-arc mailing list > opensolaris-arc@opensolaris.org GNU emacs is usually referred to as 'emacs', while Xemacs is 'xemacs'. My assumption is that the Xemacs packages would therefore be SUNWxemacs-*. I agree that it's subtle, but this is the way those commands are commonly named, and I was following that pattern. The description lines in the GNU packages all say "GNU emacs", which should help to make it more obvious, and I would hope that the Xemacs package descriptions would be equally explicit. That should largely address any confusion. Although I would rather leave these as described, I am open to a change if the ARC feels it to be necessary. - Ali From Ali.Bahrami@Sun.COM Fri Aug 1 13:13:08 2008 Received: from sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m71KD7hH001204 for ; Fri, 1 Aug 2008 13:13:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m71KCvIc017299 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:psarc-ext@sun.com>; Sat, 2 Aug 2008 04:13:07 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0K4X00101UTUV800@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Fri, 01 Aug 2008 13:13:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.98.43]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0K4X00H8FUTTZ380@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Fri, 01 Aug 2008 13:13:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fe-amer-10.sun.com ([192.18.109.80]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m71KD5Fx012523 for ; Fri, 01 Aug 2008 20:13:05 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.mail-amer.sun.com by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0K4X00101TWCKG00@mail-amer.sun.com> (original mail from Ali.Bahrami@Sun.COM) for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Fri, 01 Aug 2008 14:13:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [172.20.25.67] by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0K4X00BAEUTQYC30@mail-amer.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Fri, 01 Aug 2008 14:13:02 -0600 (MDT) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2008 14:13:02 -0600 From: Ali Bahrami Subject: Re: PSARC/2008/494 GNU emacs In-reply-to: <18579.27101.949792.145396@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Sender: Ali.Bahrami@Sun.COM To: James Carlson Cc: John Plocher , psarc-ext@Sun.COM Message-id: <48936E4E.1090204@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <48936272.40101@Sun.COM> <489365A4.2020609@Sun.Com> <18579.27101.949792.145396@gargle.gargle.HOWL> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.12 (X11/20080228) Content-Length: 1177 Status: RO X-Status: $$$$ X-UID: 0000000007 James Carlson wrote: > > A deeper question is the value of integrating something that we know > from the outset will be essentially a frozen snapshot dust collector > due to Sun's internal legal issues. Wouldn't it be better to have > someone outside of Sun who isn't afraid of GPLv3 do the work? > The technical work is largely done, so I would suggest that another way to tackle this issue is to integrate what I've done, and allow someone outside of Sun to take it over if needed. Emacs is a pretty mature package (well over 20 years old), and is not evolving so fast that old copies are worthless. The value of having something from the last couple of years available by default is pretty high. I've been using a 7 year old copy out of /usr/dist, and it was workable, if not ideal (so much so that I never bothered to build a fresh emacs for myself while at Sun, until this project). Finally, as more and more software becomes GPLv3, we are going to face this issue on multiple fronts, and some answer will have to be found. Whatever that answer is, our emacs packages can adapt to it. In the interim, there are worse things than having some version available. - Ali From gdamore@sun.com Fri Aug 1 13:26:34 2008 Received: from newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (newsunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.245]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m71KQYRh001610 for ; Fri, 1 Aug 2008 13:26:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m71KQXht039572 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:psarc-ext@sun.com>; Fri, 1 Aug 2008 14:26:34 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0K4X00K01VG9B500@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Fri, 01 Aug 2008 13:26:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sca-es-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.43.132]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0K4X00G1XVG9ITF0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Fri, 01 Aug 2008 13:26:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fe-sfbay-10.sun.com ([192.18.43.129]) by sca-es-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m71KQXG1001504 for ; Fri, 01 Aug 2008 13:26:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.fe-sfbay-10.sun.com by fe-sfbay-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0K4X00601V9S0C00@fe-sfbay-10.sun.com> (original mail from gdamore@sun.com) for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Fri, 01 Aug 2008 13:26:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.7.251.172] by fe-sfbay-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0K4X002J7VG2CU30@fe-sfbay-10.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Fri, 01 Aug 2008 13:26:26 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2008 13:21:40 -0700 From: "Garrett D'Amore" Subject: Re: PSARC/2008/494 GNU emacs In-reply-to: <48936E4E.1090204@Sun.COM> Sender: Garrett.Damore@sun.com To: Ali Bahrami Cc: James Carlson , John Plocher , psarc-ext@sun.com Message-id: <48937054.4070800@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <48936272.40101@Sun.COM> <489365A4.2020609@Sun.Com> <18579.27101.949792.145396@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <48936E4E.1090204@Sun.COM> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.14 (X11/20080616) Content-Length: 1907 Status: RO X-Status: $$$$ X-UID: 0000000008 On a separate note, its unclear to me whether SUNWemacs-nox is a sound approach for Solaris. It presents potential difficulties, as there is no precedent (that I'm aware of) for having the same binary program (/usr/bin/emacs) distributed by different packages. It potentially raises challenges for patching, and other sustaining efforts, and I'm not entirely certain that this has been thoroughly considered yet. Notably, SUNWemacs-nox would be a strict subset of functionality, and its main (and perhaps only) benefit would be to reduce the size of the installation image (e.g. for minimization environments) so that it is not dependent on X11. Also notably, emacs runs fine in a tty without X11 running, even when compiled with X11 support. Since there is not yet any standard for minimizing Solaris -- at least as distributed by Sun (and indeed Solaris is already rather large), can I humbly suggest to the project team that they might want to consider dropping this portion of the project. Other distribution builders that want to deliver a system without X11 will have a larger task ahead of them anyway, and can easily repackage emacs to their own taste if so desired. As an alternative, perhaps delivery of an emacs called "/usr/bin/emacs-no-x11" or somesuch might be a reasonable way to avoid the confusion from delivering different object files in the same location, although I still personally feel that there is little merit to the notion of a version of emacs without X11 support. (As an aside, in Linux distributions, this is used for environments such as recovery floppies, and in ridiculously tiny embedded environments. Solaris is not targetted at any of those environments -- I'm talking environments with < 16MB of storage here! In Solaris, X11 is a core depenency, IIRC, and I'm not sure there is an easy way to install it without it.) -- Garrett From Jyri.Virkki@sun.com Fri Aug 1 13:40:52 2008 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m71KeqHo001696 for ; Fri, 1 Aug 2008 13:40:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m71Keorn017714; Fri, 1 Aug 2008 13:40:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0K4X00307W422A00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Fri, 01 Aug 2008 13:40:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com ([192.18.98.36]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0K4X00H0LW42Z3A0@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Fri, 01 Aug 2008 13:40:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dm-usca15-11.red.iplanet.com (host-185-56-18-192.iplanet.com [192.18.56.185] (may be forged)) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m71Ken3K022043; Fri, 01 Aug 2008 20:40:49 +0000 (GMT) Received: from buye.red.iplanet.com (buye [192.18.65.224]) by dm-usca15-11.red.iplanet.com (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.11.7/IPLANET,v1.2) with ESMTP id m71Kenm05454; Fri, 01 Aug 2008 13:40:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from buye.red.iplanet.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by buye.red.iplanet.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7) with ESMTP id m71KenJi027555; Fri, 01 Aug 2008 13:40:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jyri@localhost) by buye.red.iplanet.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/Submit) id m71Kenlu027554; Fri, 01 Aug 2008 13:40:49 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2008 13:40:49 -0700 From: Jyri Virkki Subject: Re: PSARC/2008/494 GNU emacs In-reply-to: <48936C0A.3050408@Sun.COM> To: Ali Bahrami Cc: psarc-ext@sun.com Message-id: <20080801204049.GC26495@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <48936272.40101@Sun.COM> <489365A4.2020609@Sun.Com> <48936C0A.3050408@Sun.COM> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 Content-Length: 585 Status: RO X-Status: $$$$ X-UID: 0000000009 Ali Bahrami wrote: > > GNU emacs is usually referred to as 'emacs', while Xemacs is 'xemacs'. > My assumption is that the Xemacs packages would therefore be > SUNWxemacs-*. > > I agree that it's subtle, but this is the way those commands are commonly > named, and I was following that pattern. I don't find it subtle at all, since that's the unversally recognized naming for them. My only other comment is "woohoo!" Using OpenSolaris without an editor available is excruciating, so this can't come in a moment too soon. -- Jyri J. Virkki - jyri.virkki@sun.com - Sun Microsystems From carlsonj@phorcys.east.sun.com Fri Aug 1 13:41:49 2008 Received: from sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m71KfmY8001805 for ; Fri, 1 Aug 2008 13:41:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m71Kfg5F027315; Sat, 2 Aug 2008 04:41:43 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0K4X00301W5J3A00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Fri, 01 Aug 2008 13:41:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com ([129.148.174.143]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0K4X00H0VW5HYXD0@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Fri, 01 Aug 2008 13:41:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.3+Sun/8.14.3) with ESMTP id m71KfeSm024389; Fri, 01 Aug 2008 16:41:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from carlsonj@localhost) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.3+Sun/8.14.3/Submit) id m71Kfekl024386; Fri, 01 Aug 2008 16:41:40 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2008 16:41:40 -0400 From: James Carlson Subject: Re: PSARC/2008/494 GNU emacs In-reply-to: <48936E4E.1090204@Sun.COM> To: Ali Bahrami Cc: John Plocher , psarc-ext@sun.com Message-id: <18579.29956.913353.57019@gargle.gargle.HOWL> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: VM 7.01 under Emacs 21.3.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <48936272.40101@Sun.COM> <489365A4.2020609@Sun.Com> <18579.27101.949792.145396@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <48936E4E.1090204@Sun.COM> Content-Length: 1362 Status: RO X-Status: $$$$ X-UID: 0000000010 Ali Bahrami writes: > Emacs is a pretty mature package (well over 20 years old), and is > not evolving so fast that old copies are worthless. The value of That's not what I was questioning. The part that I was questioning was whether it was a good thing to be delivering things that we know we can't update -- particularly when the whole point of the current "deliver everything" project is (as far as I understand) that the delivering party is on the hook to do updates. You're quite right that older versions of GNU emacs will work fine -- just look at my email headers. Users can easily get them (and likely without annoying and extraneous license issues) from other sources. > Finally, as more and more software becomes GPLv3, we are going to > face this issue on multiple fronts, and some answer will have to > be found. Whatever that answer is, our emacs packages can adapt to > it. In the interim, there are worse things than having some version > available. We're setting ourselves up for yet more reasons (besides the usual "resources" one) to deliver stale software if that issue and related legal problems aren't solved. -- James Carlson, Solaris Networking Sun Microsystems / 35 Network Drive 71.232W Vox +1 781 442 2084 MS UBUR02-212 / Burlington MA 01803-2757 42.496N Fax +1 781 442 1677 From bart.smaalders@sun.com Fri Aug 1 13:42:52 2008 Received: from sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m71KgpxH001842 for ; Fri, 1 Aug 2008 13:42:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m71KgWJ6027555; Sat, 2 Aug 2008 04:42:47 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0K4X00L0HW7BO000@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Fri, 01 Aug 2008 14:42:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: from zion.sfbay.sun.com ([129.146.17.75]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0K4X00CO7W7AP950@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Fri, 01 Aug 2008 14:42:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [129.146.228.109] (cyber.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.228.109]) by zion.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.2+Sun/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m71KgkN3010311; Fri, 01 Aug 2008 20:42:46 +0000 (GMT) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2008 13:42:45 -0700 From: Bart Smaalders Subject: Re: PSARC/2008/494 GNU emacs In-reply-to: <48937054.4070800@sun.com> To: "Garrett D'Amore" Cc: Ali Bahrami , James Carlson , John Plocher , psarc-ext@sun.com Message-id: <48937545.2030306@Sun.COM> Organization: Sun Microsystems MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <48936272.40101@Sun.COM> <489365A4.2020609@Sun.Com> <18579.27101.949792.145396@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <48936E4E.1090204@Sun.COM> <48937054.4070800@sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.14 (X11/20080616) Content-Length: 1052 Status: RO X-Status: $$$$ X-UID: 0000000011 Garrett D'Amore wrote: > On a separate note, its unclear to me whether SUNWemacs-nox is a sound > approach for Solaris. > > It presents potential difficulties, as there is no precedent (that I'm > aware of) for having the same binary program (/usr/bin/emacs) > distributed by different packages. It potentially raises challenges for > patching, and other sustaining efforts, and I'm not entirely certain > that this has been thoroughly considered yet. > That's not what the proposal specified: > > > The /usr/bin/emacs command is a shell script, delivered by > SUNWemacs. This script execs the "best" version of emacs > installed on the system, where best is defined as: > > 1) If /usr/bin/emacs-x exists, exec it. > 2) If /usr/bin/emacs-nox exists, exec it. > 3) If no emacs executables are present, issue > an error to that effect and exit(1). - Bart -- Bart Smaalders Solaris Kernel Performance barts@cyber.eng.sun.com http://blogs.sun.com/barts "You will contribute more with mercurial than with thunderbird." From Nicolas.Williams@sun.com Fri Aug 1 13:43:00 2008 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m71KgxcF001858 for ; Fri, 1 Aug 2008 13:43:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m71KgsgM016569; Fri, 1 Aug 2008 21:42:56 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0K4X0030DW7H5300@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Fri, 01 Aug 2008 13:42:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM ([129.153.128.104]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0K4X00HRIW7FYUD0@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Fri, 01 Aug 2008 13:42:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m71KgojT007847; Fri, 01 Aug 2008 15:42:50 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from nw141292@localhost) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1/Submit) id m71KgoTK007846; Fri, 01 Aug 2008 15:42:50 -0500 (CDT) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2008 15:42:50 -0500 From: Nicolas Williams Subject: Re: PSARC/2008/494 GNU emacs In-reply-to: <48937054.4070800@sun.com> To: "Garrett D'Amore" Cc: Ali Bahrami , James Carlson , John Plocher , psarc-ext@sun.com Mail-followup-to: Garrett D'Amore , Ali Bahrami , James Carlson , John Plocher , psarc-ext@sun.com Message-id: <20080801204250.GO25547@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <48936272.40101@Sun.COM> <489365A4.2020609@Sun.Com> <18579.27101.949792.145396@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <48936E4E.1090204@Sun.COM> <48937054.4070800@sun.com> X-Authentication-warning: binky.Central.Sun.COM: nw141292 set sender to Nicolas.Williams@sun.com using -f User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.7i Content-Length: 2362 Status: RO X-Status: $$$$ X-UID: 0000000012 On Fri, Aug 01, 2008 at 01:21:40PM -0700, Garrett D'Amore wrote: > On a separate note, its unclear to me whether SUNWemacs-nox is a sound > approach for Solaris. > > It presents potential difficulties, as there is no precedent (that I'm > aware of) for having the same binary program (/usr/bin/emacs) > distributed by different packages. It potentially raises challenges for > patching, and other sustaining efforts, and I'm not entirely certain > that this has been thoroughly considered yet. That's not what SUNWemacs-nox does though. According to the materials /usr/bin/emacs is a script that execs the emacs-x or emacs-nox according to whether one the other or both are installed. [OT preemtive comment re: exec overhead. The cost of that exec, incidentally, should be in the noise considering what all that emacs supports. A magic executable feature that allows us to implement simple isaexec-like executable selection logic in kernel land without incurring the full cost of an exec call would be nice should this extra exec overhead someday become problematic.] > Notably, SUNWemacs-nox would be a strict subset of functionality, and > its main (and perhaps only) benefit would be to reduce the size of the > installation image (e.g. for minimization environments) so that it is > not dependent on X11. Or so as to never use emacs with X11 if you don't like that. (An env. var. seems more appropriate for that than pkg install decisions though.) > Also notably, emacs runs fine in a tty without X11 running, even when > compiled with X11 support. > > Since there is not yet any standard for minimizing Solaris -- at least > as distributed by Sun (and indeed Solaris is already rather large), can > I humbly suggest to the project team that they might want to consider > dropping this portion of the project. Other distribution builders that > want to deliver a system without X11 will have a larger task ahead of > them anyway, and can easily repackage emacs to their own taste if so > desired. Given that enabling minimization appears to be a goal of IPS I'd argue that what the project team proposes is the correct approach. > As an alternative, perhaps delivery of an emacs called > "/usr/bin/emacs-no-x11" or somesuch might be a reasonable way to avoid That's pretty much what the materials actually propose. Nico -- From Ali.Bahrami@sun.com Fri Aug 1 13:46:26 2008 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m71KkPwr001875 for ; Fri, 1 Aug 2008 13:46:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m71KkNqr017981 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:psarc-ext@sun.com>; Fri, 1 Aug 2008 21:46:25 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0K4X00M01WDCJK00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Fri, 01 Aug 2008 13:46:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.98.31]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0K4X00K6LWDCFO30@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Fri, 01 Aug 2008 13:46:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fe-amer-10.sun.com ([192.18.109.80]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m71KkN1N015909 for ; Fri, 01 Aug 2008 20:46:23 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.mail-amer.sun.com by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0K4X00M01VEDOO00@mail-amer.sun.com> (original mail from Ali.Bahrami@Sun.COM) for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Fri, 01 Aug 2008 14:46:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [172.20.25.67] by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0K4X00BAOWD1YCD0@mail-amer.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Fri, 01 Aug 2008 14:46:13 -0600 (MDT) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2008 14:46:13 -0600 From: Ali Bahrami Subject: Re: PSARC/2008/494 GNU emacs In-reply-to: <48937054.4070800@sun.com> Sender: Ali.Bahrami@sun.com To: "Garrett D'Amore" Cc: James Carlson , John Plocher , psarc-ext@sun.com Message-id: <48937615.1040109@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <48936272.40101@Sun.COM> <489365A4.2020609@Sun.Com> <18579.27101.949792.145396@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <48936E4E.1090204@Sun.COM> <48937054.4070800@sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.12 (X11/20080228) Content-Length: 3947 Status: RO X-Status: $$$$ X-UID: 0000000013 I'll reply inline... Garrett D'Amore wrote: > On a separate note, its unclear to me whether SUNWemacs-nox is a sound > approach for Solaris. > > It presents potential difficulties, as there is no precedent (that I'm > aware of) for having the same binary program (/usr/bin/emacs) > distributed by different packages. It potentially raises challenges for > patching, and other sustaining efforts, and I'm not entirely certain > that this has been thoroughly considered yet. That's not the case. /usr/bin/emacs is delivered by exactly one package (SUNWemacs). It is a shell script, that runs the best actual emacs binary available. The user has a choice of emacs binaries, and is free not to install the ones that are not of value. The script is in the case materials. Those binaries come from multiple packages, but each delivers under a unique name (/usr/bin/emacs-x, /usr/bin/emacs-nox, and possibly /usr/bin/emacs-gtk). I don't think this breaks new ground or creates a new problem. > Notably, SUNWemacs-nox would be a strict subset of functionality, and > its main (and perhaps only) benefit would be to reduce the size of the > installation image (e.g. for minimization environments) so that it is > not dependent on X11. It isn't really much smaller than an X11 version either, thanks to sharable libraries being used for X11. I don't think I'd use it either, but there are reasons to include it: 1) Optional package: Don't want it? Don't install it. 2) Linux does deliver it, using this same approach 3) IPS opens doors to minimization that do not exist today, and one obvious such minimization is to leave off X11. I make no claim that this is particularly valuable today, but see it as a placeholder for the future, and one that doesn't those who don't want it. I am trying to establish the way this package will be delivered in the future, as well as today. > > Also notably, emacs runs fine in a tty without X11 running, even when > compiled with X11 support. I completely agree, except for the case where you have no X11 libraries installed. An emacs compiled with X11 support will no run without those libraries, even if they are not installed. As I said above, we're following established patterns with this. > Since there is not yet any standard for minimizing Solaris -- at least > as distributed by Sun (and indeed Solaris is already rather large), can > I humbly suggest to the project team that they might want to consider > dropping this portion of the project. Other distribution builders that > want to deliver a system without X11 will have a larger task ahead of > them anyway, and can easily repackage emacs to their own taste if so > desired. Since the package is optional, it would be reasonable to simply not install it. > > As an alternative, perhaps delivery of an emacs called > "/usr/bin/emacs-no-x11" or somesuch might be a reasonable way to avoid > the confusion from delivering different object files in the same > location, although I still personally feel that there is little merit to > the notion of a version of emacs without X11 support. Covered above --- they're not delivered to the same name. The binary is actually named 'emacs-nox'. > (As an aside, in Linux distributions, this is used for environments such > as recovery floppies, and in ridiculously tiny embedded environments. > Solaris is not targetted at any of those environments -- I'm talking > environments with < 16MB of storage here! In Solaris, X11 is a core > depenency, IIRC, and I'm not sure there is an easy way to install it > without it.) > > -- Garrett > I make no claims about the future of minimized Solaris, but still feel that this decomposition is reasonable. It puts no additional barriers up to minimization, and it follows the way other systems work. Personally, I will probably install SUNWemacs, and SUNWemacs-x, but not the other two. Thanks... - Ali From bart.smaalders@sun.com Fri Aug 1 13:46:49 2008 Received: from newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (newsunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.245]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m71KknLZ001887 for ; Fri, 1 Aug 2008 13:46:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m71Kkk7L046141; Fri, 1 Aug 2008 14:46:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0K4X0030BWDZB200@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Fri, 01 Aug 2008 13:46:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zion.sfbay.sun.com ([129.146.17.75]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0K4X00HHBWDYYXD0@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Fri, 01 Aug 2008 13:46:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [129.146.228.109] (cyber.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.228.109]) by zion.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.2+Sun/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m71KkkVm010459; Fri, 01 Aug 2008 20:46:46 +0000 (GMT) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2008 13:46:46 -0700 From: Bart Smaalders Subject: Re: PSARC/2008/494 GNU emacs In-reply-to: <18579.29956.913353.57019@gargle.gargle.HOWL> To: James Carlson Cc: Ali Bahrami , John Plocher , psarc-ext@sun.com Message-id: <48937636.7080107@Sun.COM> Organization: Sun Microsystems MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <48936272.40101@Sun.COM> <489365A4.2020609@Sun.Com> <18579.27101.949792.145396@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <48936E4E.1090204@Sun.COM> <18579.29956.913353.57019@gargle.gargle.HOWL> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.14 (X11/20080616) Content-Length: 458 Status: RO X-Status: $$$$ X-UID: 0000000014 James Carlson wrote: > We're setting ourselves up for yet more reasons (besides the usual > "resources" one) to deliver stale software if that issue and related > legal problems aren't solved. > By this argument we should stop shipping any new gnu software. What is your intent? - Bart -- Bart Smaalders Solaris Kernel Performance barts@cyber.eng.sun.com http://blogs.sun.com/barts "You will contribute more with mercurial than with thunderbird." From gdamore@sun.com Fri Aug 1 13:52:01 2008 Received: from sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m71Kq0XJ001904 for ; Fri, 1 Aug 2008 13:52:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m71Kpsj7000850 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:psarc-ext@sun.com>; Sat, 2 Aug 2008 04:51:59 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0K4X00311WMMJ900@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Fri, 01 Aug 2008 13:51:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sca-es-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.43.133]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0K4X00H59WMMZ4E0@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Fri, 01 Aug 2008 13:51:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fe-sfbay-09.sun.com ([192.18.43.129]) by sca-es-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m71KpvAt025106 for ; Fri, 01 Aug 2008 13:51:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.fe-sfbay-09.sun.com by fe-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0K4X00601WGGXK00@fe-sfbay-09.sun.com> (original mail from gdamore@sun.com) for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Fri, 01 Aug 2008 13:51:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.7.251.172] by fe-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0K4X0046WWMK4BC0@fe-sfbay-09.sun.com>; Fri, 01 Aug 2008 13:51:57 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2008 13:47:10 -0700 From: "Garrett D'Amore" Subject: Re: PSARC/2008/494 GNU emacs In-reply-to: <48937545.2030306@Sun.COM> Sender: Garrett.Damore@sun.com To: Bart Smaalders Cc: Ali Bahrami , James Carlson , John Plocher , psarc-ext@sun.com Message-id: <4893764E.7060202@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <48936272.40101@Sun.COM> <489365A4.2020609@Sun.Com> <18579.27101.949792.145396@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <48936E4E.1090204@Sun.COM> <48937054.4070800@sun.com> <48937545.2030306@Sun.COM> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.14 (X11/20080616) Content-Length: 1196 Status: RO X-Status: $$$$ X-UID: 0000000015 Sorry if I misunderstood what the case was delivering. Still not sure exactly why we're doing a no-x version from a business perspective (and I think JCarlson's issue is a business one as well), but architecturally I see no further issues. -- Garrett Bart Smaalders wrote: > Garrett D'Amore wrote: >> On a separate note, its unclear to me whether SUNWemacs-nox is a >> sound approach for Solaris. >> >> It presents potential difficulties, as there is no precedent (that >> I'm aware of) for having the same binary program (/usr/bin/emacs) >> distributed by different packages. It potentially raises challenges >> for patching, and other sustaining efforts, and I'm not entirely >> certain that this has been thoroughly considered yet. >> > > > That's not what the proposal specified: > >> >> >> The /usr/bin/emacs command is a shell script, delivered by >> SUNWemacs. This script execs the "best" version of emacs >> installed on the system, where best is defined as: >> >> 1) If /usr/bin/emacs-x exists, exec it. >> 2) If /usr/bin/emacs-nox exists, exec it. >> 3) If no emacs executables are present, issue >> an error to that effect and exit(1). > > - Bart > From Ali.Bahrami@sun.com Fri Aug 1 13:52:43 2008 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m71Kqgq9001934 for ; Fri, 1 Aug 2008 13:52:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m71KqZqu020920 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:psarc-ext@sun.com>; Fri, 1 Aug 2008 21:52:42 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0K4X00307WNSKQ00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Fri, 01 Aug 2008 13:52:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.98.43]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0K4X00HKFWNRZ3A0@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Fri, 01 Aug 2008 13:52:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fe-amer-10.sun.com ([192.18.109.80]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m71Kqd8P029696 for ; Fri, 01 Aug 2008 20:52:39 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.mail-amer.sun.com by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0K4X00M01VEDOO00@mail-amer.sun.com> (original mail from Ali.Bahrami@Sun.COM) for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Fri, 01 Aug 2008 14:52:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [172.20.25.67] by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0K4X00JTKWNK2T10@mail-amer.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Fri, 01 Aug 2008 14:52:32 -0600 (MDT) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2008 14:52:32 -0600 From: Ali Bahrami Subject: Re: PSARC/2008/494 GNU emacs In-reply-to: <18579.29956.913353.57019@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Sender: Ali.Bahrami@sun.com To: James Carlson Cc: John Plocher , psarc-ext@sun.com Message-id: <48937790.3070905@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <48936272.40101@Sun.COM> <489365A4.2020609@Sun.Com> <18579.27101.949792.145396@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <48936E4E.1090204@Sun.COM> <18579.29956.913353.57019@gargle.gargle.HOWL> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.12 (X11/20080228) Content-Length: 1514 Status: RO X-Status: $$$$ X-UID: 0000000016 James Carlson wrote: > Ali Bahrami writes: >> Emacs is a pretty mature package (well over 20 years old), and is >> not evolving so fast that old copies are worthless. The value of > > That's not what I was questioning. The part that I was questioning > was whether it was a good thing to be delivering things that we know > we can't update -- particularly when the whole point of the current > "deliver everything" project is (as far as I understand) that the > delivering party is on the hook to do updates. > > You're quite right that older versions of GNU emacs will work fine -- > just look at my email headers. Users can easily get them (and likely > without annoying and extraneous license issues) from other sources. > >> Finally, as more and more software becomes GPLv3, we are going to >> face this issue on multiple fronts, and some answer will have to >> be found. Whatever that answer is, our emacs packages can adapt to >> it. In the interim, there are worse things than having some version >> available. > > We're setting ourselves up for yet more reasons (besides the usual > "resources" one) to deliver stale software if that issue and related > legal problems aren't solved. > You'll get no argument from me on your larger points. Emacs is far from unique in that regard, and our future probably depends on solving that issue. In the worst case, someone outside of Sun will be driven to deliver a more modern version, maybe using the packaging work I've done as a starting point. - Ali From carlsonj@phorcys.east.sun.com Fri Aug 1 13:57:51 2008 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m71Kvppj002276 for ; Fri, 1 Aug 2008 13:57:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m71KvoYA002182; Fri, 1 Aug 2008 13:57:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0K4X00001WWENT00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Fri, 01 Aug 2008 13:57:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com ([129.148.174.143]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0K4X00KMZWWDFO40@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Fri, 01 Aug 2008 13:57:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.3+Sun/8.14.3) with ESMTP id m71Kvn0g024487; Fri, 01 Aug 2008 16:57:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from carlsonj@localhost) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.3+Sun/8.14.3/Submit) id m71KvnYH024484; Fri, 01 Aug 2008 16:57:49 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2008 16:57:49 -0400 From: James Carlson Subject: Re: PSARC/2008/494 GNU emacs In-reply-to: <48937636.7080107@Sun.COM> To: Bart Smaalders Cc: Ali Bahrami , John Plocher , psarc-ext@sun.com Message-id: <18579.30925.118118.591744@gargle.gargle.HOWL> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: VM 7.01 under Emacs 21.3.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <48936272.40101@Sun.COM> <489365A4.2020609@Sun.Com> <18579.27101.949792.145396@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <48936E4E.1090204@Sun.COM> <18579.29956.913353.57019@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <48937636.7080107@Sun.COM> Content-Length: 1223 Status: RO X-Status: $$$$ X-UID: 0000000017 Bart Smaalders writes: > James Carlson wrote: > > > We're setting ourselves up for yet more reasons (besides the usual > > "resources" one) to deliver stale software if that issue and related > > legal problems aren't solved. > > > > By this argument we should stop shipping any new gnu software. > What is your intent? Are all GNU projects moving to GPLv3? I'd thought that wasn't the case. In any event, I was asking about this one particular project, and not about arbitrary other projects that might exist. This one notes that it's going to deliver both the first and (effectively; unless something else changes) last versions of that particular package, and one based on an older version, which is unlike all the other "include everything" projects that has come by for review. By your argument, do they all just get frozen in time? What is your intent? If they all do get frozen, then that stinks, and it makes hash of the whole rationale for trying to ship them in the first place. -- James Carlson, Solaris Networking Sun Microsystems / 35 Network Drive 71.232W Vox +1 781 442 2084 MS UBUR02-212 / Burlington MA 01803-2757 42.496N Fax +1 781 442 1677 From Ali.Bahrami@sun.com Fri Aug 1 13:59:34 2008 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m71KxXFa002294 for ; Fri, 1 Aug 2008 13:59:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m71KxM2v023984 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:psarc-ext@sun.com>; Fri, 1 Aug 2008 21:59:33 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0K4X0030VWZ3VD00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Fri, 01 Aug 2008 13:59:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.98.31]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0K4X00H0BWZ2Z1D0@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Fri, 01 Aug 2008 13:59:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fe-amer-10.sun.com ([192.18.109.80]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m71KxQGN021340 for ; Fri, 01 Aug 2008 20:59:26 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.mail-amer.sun.com by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0K4X00601WSGO000@mail-amer.sun.com> (original mail from Ali.Bahrami@Sun.COM) for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Fri, 01 Aug 2008 14:59:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [172.20.25.67] by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0K4X00BMRWZ2YCG0@mail-amer.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Fri, 01 Aug 2008 14:59:26 -0600 (MDT) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2008 14:59:26 -0600 From: Ali Bahrami Subject: Re: PSARC/2008/494 GNU emacs In-reply-to: <48936272.40101@Sun.COM> Sender: Ali.Bahrami@sun.com To: psarc-ext@sun.com Message-id: <4893792E.2030600@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <48936272.40101@Sun.COM> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.12 (X11/20080228) Content-Length: 498 Status: RO X-Status: $$$$ X-UID: 0000000018 As it happens, I have prototype versions of these emacs packages available to those within Sun: # pkgadd -d /net/rtld.central/local/emacs-pkg/`uname -p` \ SUNWemacs SUNWemacs-nox SUNWemacs-x SUNWemacs-el These should install on recent Nevada, or OpenSolaris. Feel free to kick the tires. Send me mail offline with any issues and I'll do what I can to address them before integration. To those outside Sun, I apologize. I'll get something into wider distribution as soon as I can. - Ali From Jyri.Virkki@sun.com Fri Aug 1 14:02:17 2008 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m71L2GIc002403 for ; Fri, 1 Aug 2008 14:02:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m71L2Bv8025176; Fri, 1 Aug 2008 22:02:14 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0K4X00109X3Q4100@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Fri, 01 Aug 2008 14:02:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com ([192.18.98.34]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0K4X00KX0X3PFK40@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Fri, 01 Aug 2008 14:02:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dm-usca19-13.red.iplanet.com (host-179-56-18-192.iplanet.com [192.18.56.179] (may be forged)) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m71L2DbC019986; Fri, 01 Aug 2008 21:02:13 +0000 (GMT) Received: from buye.red.iplanet.com (buye [192.18.65.224]) by dm-usca19-13.red.iplanet.com (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.11.7/IPLANET,v1.2) with ESMTP id m71L2Cs24930; Fri, 01 Aug 2008 14:02:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from buye.red.iplanet.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by buye.red.iplanet.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7) with ESMTP id m71L2Ct8027728; Fri, 01 Aug 2008 14:02:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jyri@localhost) by buye.red.iplanet.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/Submit) id m71L2C2o027727; Fri, 01 Aug 2008 14:02:12 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2008 14:02:12 -0700 From: Jyri Virkki Subject: Re: PSARC/2008/494 GNU emacs In-reply-to: <48937615.1040109@Sun.COM> To: Ali Bahrami Cc: psarc-ext@sun.com Message-id: <20080801210212.GD26495@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <48936272.40101@Sun.COM> <489365A4.2020609@Sun.Com> <18579.27101.949792.145396@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <48936E4E.1090204@Sun.COM> <48937054.4070800@sun.com> <48937615.1040109@Sun.COM> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 Content-Length: 1059 Status: RO X-Status: $$$$ X-UID: 0000000019 Ali Bahrami wrote: > > actual emacs binary available. The user has a choice of emacs binaries, > and is free not to install the ones that are not of value. Actually I did have one comment which I forgot in the joy of just seeing this case come in ;-) "Install" is a system-wide action (ignoring user images here) whereas "choice" is individual. Mixing the two is confusing. Not everyone is on laptops, shared machines are still common, so having /usr/bin/emacs trigger behavior on the mere presence of this or that package isn't ideal. On a shared server both -x and -nox will probably be installed since subsets of users may prefer one or the other. I'd rather not have the behavior change suddenly for me just because some other user went and installed the -x version. So it sure would be nice if I can configure something (an env var, .rc file or such) to lock in how it'll behave for me. There's other ways around that so I don't see it as vital, just a suggestion that'd be nice to have. -- Jyri J. Virkki - jyri.virkki@sun.com - Sun Microsystems From Nicolas.Williams@sun.com Fri Aug 1 14:03:40 2008 Received: from newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (newsunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.245]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m71L3eod002418 for ; Fri, 1 Aug 2008 14:03:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m71L3cMV050741; Fri, 1 Aug 2008 15:03:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0K4X00N0JX604T00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Fri, 01 Aug 2008 15:03:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM ([129.153.128.104]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0K4X00CGTX5VPC70@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Fri, 01 Aug 2008 15:03:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m71L3UZw007886; Fri, 01 Aug 2008 16:03:30 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from nw141292@localhost) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1/Submit) id m71L3UFB007885; Fri, 01 Aug 2008 16:03:30 -0500 (CDT) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2008 16:03:30 -0500 From: Nicolas Williams Subject: Re: PSARC/2008/494 GNU emacs In-reply-to: <18579.30925.118118.591744@gargle.gargle.HOWL> To: James Carlson Cc: Bart Smaalders , Ali Bahrami , John Plocher , psarc-ext@sun.com Mail-followup-to: James Carlson , Bart Smaalders , Ali Bahrami , John Plocher , psarc-ext@sun.com Message-id: <20080801210330.GQ25547@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <48936272.40101@Sun.COM> <489365A4.2020609@Sun.Com> <18579.27101.949792.145396@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <48936E4E.1090204@Sun.COM> <18579.29956.913353.57019@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <48937636.7080107@Sun.COM> <18579.30925.118118.591744@gargle.gargle.HOWL> X-Authentication-warning: binky.Central.Sun.COM: nw141292 set sender to Nicolas.Williams@sun.com using -f User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.7i Content-Length: 304 Status: RO X-Status: $$$$ X-UID: 0000000020 On Fri, Aug 01, 2008 at 04:57:49PM -0400, James Carlson wrote: > If they all do get frozen, then that stinks, and it makes hash of the > whole rationale for trying to ship them in the first place. Maybe they only get frozen until Legal figures out a way forward. That seems like a likely result to me. From gdamore@sun.com Fri Aug 1 14:11:33 2008 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m71LBWbB003129 for ; Fri, 1 Aug 2008 14:11:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m71LBQDv029049 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:psarc-ext@sun.com>; Fri, 1 Aug 2008 22:11:31 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0K4X0040DXJ7DQ00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Fri, 01 Aug 2008 14:11:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sca-es-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.43.133]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0K4X00HNRXJ6Z1D0@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Fri, 01 Aug 2008 14:11:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fe-sfbay-10.sun.com ([192.18.43.129]) by sca-es-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m71LBUG7027137 for ; Fri, 01 Aug 2008 14:11:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.fe-sfbay-10.sun.com by fe-sfbay-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0K4X00501XF18Y00@fe-sfbay-10.sun.com> (original mail from gdamore@sun.com) for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Fri, 01 Aug 2008 14:11:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.7.251.172] by fe-sfbay-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0K4X002Y0XJ66XA0@fe-sfbay-10.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Fri, 01 Aug 2008 14:11:30 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2008 14:06:44 -0700 From: "Garrett D'Amore" Subject: Re: PSARC/2008/494 GNU emacs In-reply-to: <20080801210212.GD26495@sun.com> Sender: Garrett.Damore@sun.com To: Jyri Virkki Cc: Ali Bahrami , psarc-ext@sun.com Message-id: <48937AE4.9050904@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <48936272.40101@Sun.COM> <489365A4.2020609@Sun.Com> <18579.27101.949792.145396@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <48936E4E.1090204@Sun.COM> <48937054.4070800@sun.com> <48937615.1040109@Sun.COM> <20080801210212.GD26495@sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.14 (X11/20080616) Content-Length: 1532 Status: RO X-Status: $$$$ X-UID: 0000000021 Jyri Virkki wrote: > Ali Bahrami wrote: > >> actual emacs binary available. The user has a choice of emacs binaries, >> and is free not to install the ones that are not of value. >> > > Actually I did have one comment which I forgot in the joy of just > seeing this case come in ;-) > > "Install" is a system-wide action (ignoring user images here) whereas > "choice" is individual. Mixing the two is confusing. > > Not everyone is on laptops, shared machines are still common, so > having /usr/bin/emacs trigger behavior on the mere presence of this or > that package isn't ideal. On a shared server both -x and -nox will > probably be installed since subsets of users may prefer one or the > other. I'd rather not have the behavior change suddenly for me just > because some other user went and installed the -x version. So it sure > would be nice if I can configure something (an env var, .rc file or > such) to lock in how it'll behave for me. > > There's other ways around that so I don't see it as vital, just a > suggestion that'd be nice to have. > There is *no* reason to install no-x if you also have -x. The functionality is a strict subset, and emacs can always be run without X11 by specifying "-nw" on the command line. However, the case gets more interesting once gtk or athena based versions are available. Then choice could indeed play a role, and environment variables or some other per-user tunable would be nice. (I suppose just running /usr/bin/emacs-gtk or somesuch would work.) -- Garrett From Ali.Bahrami@Sun.COM Fri Aug 1 14:12:02 2008 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m71LC1pv003283 for ; Fri, 1 Aug 2008 14:12:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m71LC1JF006423 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:psarc-ext@sun.com>; Fri, 1 Aug 2008 14:12:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0K4X0020NXK16X00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Fri, 01 Aug 2008 14:12:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.98.43]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0K4X00K6EXJZFN60@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Fri, 01 Aug 2008 14:11:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fe-amer-10.sun.com ([192.18.109.80]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m71LBwuj007443 for ; Fri, 01 Aug 2008 21:11:58 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.mail-amer.sun.com by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0K4X00601WSGO000@mail-amer.sun.com> (original mail from Ali.Bahrami@Sun.COM) for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Fri, 01 Aug 2008 15:11:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [172.20.25.67] by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0K4X00JDXXJV2TB0@mail-amer.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Fri, 01 Aug 2008 15:11:55 -0600 (MDT) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2008 15:11:55 -0600 From: Ali Bahrami Subject: Re: PSARC/2008/494 GNU emacs In-reply-to: <20080801210212.GD26495@sun.com> Sender: Ali.Bahrami@Sun.COM To: Jyri Virkki Cc: psarc-ext@Sun.COM Message-id: <48937C1B.6020201@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <48936272.40101@Sun.COM> <489365A4.2020609@Sun.Com> <18579.27101.949792.145396@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <48936E4E.1090204@Sun.COM> <48937054.4070800@sun.com> <48937615.1040109@Sun.COM> <20080801210212.GD26495@sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.12 (X11/20080228) Content-Length: 2328 Status: RO X-Status: $$$$ X-UID: 0000000022 Jyri Virkki wrote: > Ali Bahrami wrote: >> actual emacs binary available. The user has a choice of emacs binaries, >> and is free not to install the ones that are not of value. > > Actually I did have one comment which I forgot in the joy of just > seeing this case come in ;-) > > "Install" is a system-wide action (ignoring user images here) whereas > "choice" is individual. Mixing the two is confusing. > > Not everyone is on laptops, shared machines are still common, so > having /usr/bin/emacs trigger behavior on the mere presence of this or > that package isn't ideal. On a shared server both -x and -nox will > probably be installed since subsets of users may prefer one or the > other. I'd rather not have the behavior change suddenly for me just > because some other user went and installed the -x version. So it sure > would be nice if I can configure something (an env var, .rc file or > such) to lock in how it'll behave for me. > > There's other ways around that so I don't see it as vital, just a > suggestion that'd be nice to have. > > I thought about that, but decided "not this case". I don't want to invent a "Solaris emacs-only" solution to this. There are many programs with more than one implementation, and the problem of configuring which is the default is something that should be considered more broadly. Linux has a scheme, built around double indirection using symlinks, and a directory named /etc/alternatives (I think, this is from memory). It's not necessarily the right answer for Solaris, but we need something in that space. In a recent email discussion with Bart, he mentioned that there are people kicking around the idea of a "verexec" program, that would be controllable via environment variables in some systematic way. Maybe the answer lies in that direction. So one of my goals was to do nothing that would impose a new backward compatibility issue later on when we want to change it. In the meantime, some things to consider: - The vast majority of systems in the world are really single user. - You can run whichever version you want by using the full name (i.e. emacs-nox), no matter what some other user installs. - Shell aliases, or a symlink to /usr/bin/emacs-nox from your ~/bin will let you make "emacs" do whatever you want it to. Thanks! - Ali From bart.smaalders@sun.com Fri Aug 1 14:15:41 2008 Received: from sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m71LFdSe003555 for ; Fri, 1 Aug 2008 14:15:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m71LFVOr008954; Sat, 2 Aug 2008 05:15:35 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0K4X00201XPWKP00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Fri, 01 Aug 2008 14:15:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zion.sfbay.sun.com ([129.146.17.75]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0K4X00KULXPWFO70@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Fri, 01 Aug 2008 14:15:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [129.146.228.109] (cyber.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.228.109]) by zion.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.2+Sun/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m71LFW5G011501; Fri, 01 Aug 2008 21:15:32 +0000 (GMT) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2008 14:15:32 -0700 From: Bart Smaalders Subject: Re: PSARC/2008/494 GNU emacs In-reply-to: <18579.30925.118118.591744@gargle.gargle.HOWL> To: James Carlson Cc: Ali Bahrami , John Plocher , psarc-ext@sun.com Message-id: <48937CF4.4020204@Sun.COM> Organization: Sun Microsystems MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <48936272.40101@Sun.COM> <489365A4.2020609@Sun.Com> <18579.27101.949792.145396@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <48936E4E.1090204@Sun.COM> <18579.29956.913353.57019@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <48937636.7080107@Sun.COM> <18579.30925.118118.591744@gargle.gargle.HOWL> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.14 (X11/20080616) Content-Length: 1576 Status: RO X-Status: $$$$ X-UID: 0000000023 James Carlson wrote: > Bart Smaalders writes: >> James Carlson wrote: >> >>> We're setting ourselves up for yet more reasons (besides the usual >>> "resources" one) to deliver stale software if that issue and related >>> legal problems aren't solved. >>> >> By this argument we should stop shipping any new gnu software. >> What is your intent? > > Are all GNU projects moving to GPLv3? I'd thought that wasn't the > case. > Over time, I expect most will do so. > In any event, I was asking about this one particular project, and not > about arbitrary other projects that might exist. This one notes that > it's going to deliver both the first and (effectively; unless > something else changes) last versions of that particular package, and > one based on an older version, which is unlike all the other "include > everything" projects that has come by for review. > > By your argument, do they all just get frozen in time? What is your > intent? I want emacs in the wos. I do not want to see it held hostage to legal's inability to come to terms w/ gplv3. > > If they all do get frozen, then that stinks, and it makes hash of the > whole rationale for trying to ship them in the first place. > The gplv3 mess will get resolved. I don't want to see this or other projects held up until it happens; I'd much rather have a slight old version of emacs for a while rather than none at all. - Bart -- Bart Smaalders Solaris Kernel Performance barts@cyber.eng.sun.com http://blogs.sun.com/barts "You will contribute more with mercurial than with thunderbird." From Nicolas.Williams@sun.com Fri Aug 1 14:23:46 2008 Received: from sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m71LNjCk003844 for ; Fri, 1 Aug 2008 14:23:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m71LNcnR011678; Sat, 2 Aug 2008 05:23:41 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0K4X0010HY3EG100@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Fri, 01 Aug 2008 15:23:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM ([129.153.128.104]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0K4X00CH1Y3DPC80@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Fri, 01 Aug 2008 15:23:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m71LNbcA007915; Fri, 01 Aug 2008 16:23:37 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from nw141292@localhost) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1/Submit) id m71LNbeM007914; Fri, 01 Aug 2008 16:23:37 -0500 (CDT) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2008 16:23:37 -0500 From: Nicolas Williams Subject: Re: PSARC/2008/494 GNU emacs In-reply-to: <48937AE4.9050904@sun.com> To: "Garrett D'Amore" Cc: Jyri Virkki , Ali Bahrami , psarc-ext@sun.com Mail-followup-to: Garrett D'Amore , Jyri Virkki , Ali Bahrami , psarc-ext@sun.com Message-id: <20080801212337.GR25547@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <48936272.40101@Sun.COM> <489365A4.2020609@Sun.Com> <18579.27101.949792.145396@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <48936E4E.1090204@Sun.COM> <48937054.4070800@sun.com> <48937615.1040109@Sun.COM> <20080801210212.GD26495@sun.com> <48937AE4.9050904@sun.com> X-Authentication-warning: binky.Central.Sun.COM: nw141292 set sender to Nicolas.Williams@sun.com using -f User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.7i Content-Length: 462 Status: RO X-Status: $$$$ X-UID: 0000000024 On Fri, Aug 01, 2008 at 02:06:44PM -0700, Garrett D'Amore wrote: > However, the case gets more interesting once gtk or athena based > versions are available. Then choice could indeed play a role, and > environment variables or some other per-user tunable would be nice. (I > suppose just running /usr/bin/emacs-gtk or somesuch would work.) Technically that would be $EDITOR (which can be set appropriately in one's .profile, according to what is available). From John.Plocher@sun.com Fri Aug 1 16:12:28 2008 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m71NCRGR005011 for ; Fri, 1 Aug 2008 16:12:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m71NCPh0019491 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:psarc-ext@sun.com>; Sat, 2 Aug 2008 00:12:26 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0K4Y0090B34OZ600@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Fri, 01 Aug 2008 16:12:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sca-es-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.43.133]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0K4Y0059B34OIO50@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Fri, 01 Aug 2008 16:12:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fe-sfbay-09.sun.com ([192.18.43.129]) by sca-es-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m71NCNLL007980 for ; Fri, 01 Aug 2008 16:12:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.fe-sfbay-09.sun.com by fe-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0K4Y005012VQUF00@fe-sfbay-09.sun.com> (original mail from John.Plocher@Sun.COM) for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Fri, 01 Aug 2008 16:12:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.168.4] ([208.74.177.212]) by fe-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0K4Y0037Y34N1CB0@fe-sfbay-09.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Fri, 01 Aug 2008 16:12:23 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2008 16:12:23 -0700 From: John Plocher Subject: Re: PSARC/2008/494 GNU emacs In-reply-to: <48936C0A.3050408@Sun.COM> Sender: John.Plocher@sun.com To: Ali Bahrami Cc: psarc-ext@sun.com Message-id: <48939857.4070301@Sun.Com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <48936272.40101@Sun.COM> <489365A4.2020609@Sun.Com> <48936C0A.3050408@Sun.COM> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.14 (Macintosh/20080421) Content-Length: 201 Status: RO X-Status: $$$$ X-UID: 0000000025 Ali Bahrami wrote: > GNU emacs is usually referred to as 'emacs', while Xemacs is 'xemacs'. > My assumption is that the Xemacs packages would therefore be > SUNWxemacs-*. > OK - I'm happy. -John From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Aug 2 00:12:56 2008 Received: from sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m727CtJb014463 for ; Sat, 2 Aug 2008 00:12:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m727Cm6F009756; Sat, 2 Aug 2008 15:12:49 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0K4Y00A01PDCCD00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Sat, 02 Aug 2008 00:12:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com ([129.146.17.59]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0K4Y000TJPDCMN90@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Sat, 02 Aug 2008 00:12:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xanadu (xanadu.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.228.194]) by jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.3+Sun/8.14.3) with ESMTP id m727ClQu132573; Sat, 02 Aug 2008 00:12:47 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2008 00:12:59 -0700 From: Dan Price Subject: Re: PSARC/2008/494 GNU emacs In-reply-to: <48937CF4.4020204@Sun.COM> To: Bart Smaalders Cc: James Carlson , Ali Bahrami , John Plocher , psarc-ext@sun.com Message-id: <20080802071251.GA5076@eng.sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <48936272.40101@Sun.COM> <489365A4.2020609@Sun.Com> <18579.27101.949792.145396@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <48936E4E.1090204@Sun.COM> <18579.29956.913353.57019@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <48937636.7080107@Sun.COM> <18579.30925.118118.591744@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <48937CF4.4020204@Sun.COM> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i Content-Length: 1025 Status: RO X-Status: $$$$ X-UID: 0000000026 On Fri 01 Aug 2008 at 02:15PM, Bart Smaalders wrote: > I want emacs in the wos. I do not want to see it held hostage to > legal's inability to come to terms w/ gplv3. > > > > >If they all do get frozen, then that stinks, and it makes hash of the > >whole rationale for trying to ship them in the first place. > > > > The gplv3 mess will get resolved. I don't want to see this or other > projects held up until it happens; I'd much rather have a slight old > version of emacs for a while rather than none at all. I'll chime in as well, in support of this proposal in general: having a working emacs for this people who depend on emacs as a productivity tool is a big win. This is such a big win that if it's a year old or whatever it doesn't matter. Nice work Ali! Thanks for doing this! I think your 'emacs' shell script is the right way forward and could be the right solution for other editors facing the same issue. -dp -- Daniel Price - Solaris Kernel Engineering - dp@eng.sun.com - blogs.sun.com/dp From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Aug 2 00:15:56 2008 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m727FuXO014477 for ; Sat, 2 Aug 2008 00:15:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m727FdAw008751; Sat, 2 Aug 2008 08:15:49 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0K4Y0030JPIB3E00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Sat, 02 Aug 2008 00:15:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com ([129.146.17.63]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0K4Y002TBPIALCA0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Sat, 02 Aug 2008 00:15:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xanadu (xanadu.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.228.194]) by jurassic-x4600.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.3+Sun/8.14.3) with ESMTP id m727FkoV132821; Sat, 02 Aug 2008 00:15:46 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2008 00:15:57 -0700 From: Dan Price Subject: Re: PSARC/2008/494 GNU emacs In-reply-to: <20080802071251.GA5076@eng.sun.com> To: Bart Smaalders Cc: James Carlson , Ali Bahrami , John Plocher , psarc-ext@sun.com Message-id: <20080802071553.GA5128@eng.sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <48936272.40101@Sun.COM> <489365A4.2020609@Sun.Com> <18579.27101.949792.145396@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <48936E4E.1090204@Sun.COM> <18579.29956.913353.57019@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <48937636.7080107@Sun.COM> <18579.30925.118118.591744@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <48937CF4.4020204@Sun.COM> <20080802071251.GA5076@eng.sun.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i Content-Length: 1039 Status: RO X-Status: $$$$ X-UID: 0000000027 On Sat 02 Aug 2008 at 12:12AM, Dan Price wrote: > On Fri 01 Aug 2008 at 02:15PM, Bart Smaalders wrote: > > I want emacs in the wos. I do not want to see it held hostage to > > legal's inability to come to terms w/ gplv3. > > > > > > > >If they all do get frozen, then that stinks, and it makes hash of the > > >whole rationale for trying to ship them in the first place. > > > > > > > The gplv3 mess will get resolved. I don't want to see this or other > > projects held up until it happens; I'd much rather have a slight old > > version of emacs for a while rather than none at all. > > I'll chime in as well, in support of this proposal in general: > having a working emacs for this people who depend on emacs as a > productivity tool is a big win. And I forgot to add: according to some data we have from the results of 'pkg search', it appears that emacs is in the top 5 packages folks are looking for after installing opensolaris. -dp -- Daniel Price - Solaris Kernel Engineering - dp@eng.sun.com - blogs.sun.com/dp From Darren.Reed@sun.com Sun Aug 3 01:36:21 2008 Received: from sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m738aKXd011530 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 2008 01:36:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m738a7hR018963 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:psarc-ext@sun.com>; Sun, 3 Aug 2008 16:36:20 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0K5000H05NWGPF00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Sun, 03 Aug 2008 01:36:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gmp-eb-inf-1.sun.com ([192.18.6.21]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0K5000FBSNWFBF10@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Sun, 03 Aug 2008 01:36:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fe-emea-09.sun.com (gmp-eb-lb-2-fe1.eu.sun.com [192.18.6.10]) by gmp-eb-inf-1.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m738aFf1028073 for ; Sun, 03 Aug 2008 08:36:15 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.fe-emea-09.sun.com by fe-emea-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0K5000I01NQL3M00@fe-emea-09.sun.com> (original mail from Darren.Reed@Sun.COM) for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Sun, 03 Aug 2008 09:36:14 +0100 (BST) Received: from [129.146.106.55] by fe-emea-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0K500091KNWDJBC0@fe-emea-09.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Sun, 03 Aug 2008 09:36:14 +0100 (BST) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2008 01:36:13 -0700 From: Darren Reed Subject: Re: PSARC/2008/494 GNU emacs In-reply-to: <48936272.40101@Sun.COM> Sender: Darren.Reed@sun.com To: Ali Bahrami Cc: psarc-ext@sun.com Message-id: <48956DFD.7000204@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en-au, en X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <48936272.40101@Sun.COM> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; SunOS i86pc; en-US; rv:1.7) Gecko/20060120 Content-Length: 533 Status: RO X-Status: $$$$ X-UID: 0000000028 For a long time, various emacsy things have been delivered as a part of SUNWspro (Sun's compiler package for Solaris), the latest being 21.4.12 delivered in SS12. Has this project been in communication with the the developers of SUNWspro to ensure that we don't get 2 emacs installations when we install SUNWspro on a system with SUNWemacs*? Are there any interface problems for SUNWspro if it executes "emacs" (consider SS12 being used with SUNWemacs*) and ends up with a version of emacs running that it didn't deliver? Darren From Ali.Bahrami@sun.com Sun Aug 3 09:32:08 2008 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m73GW8HD019527 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 2008 09:32:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m73GW19d021516; Sun, 3 Aug 2008 17:32:04 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0K5100K019XFYA00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Sun, 03 Aug 2008 09:32:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.98.31]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0K5100C559XE9B80@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Sun, 03 Aug 2008 09:32:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay11i.sun.com (ip121.net129179-4.block1.us.syntegra.com [129.179.4.121]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m73GW2Hp020010; Sun, 03 Aug 2008 16:32:02 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mmp11es.mmp.us.syntegra.com ([160.41.208.11] [160.41.208.11]) by relay11i.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-678529; Sun, 03 Aug 2008 16:32:02 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay17i.sun.com (relay17i.sun.com [129.179.4.127]) by mmp11es.mmp.us.syntegra.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-27234930; Sun, 03 Aug 2008 16:32:01 +0000 (Z) Received: from emvision.com ([199.45.162.234] [199.45.162.234]) by relay1i.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-5102862; Sun, 03 Aug 2008 16:32:01 +0000 (Z) Received: from pod.emvision.com (pod.emvision.com [198.182.198.2]) by emvision.com (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id m73GW079010936; Sun, 03 Aug 2008 10:32:00 -0600 (MDT) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2008 10:32:00 -0600 From: Ali Bahrami Subject: Re: PSARC/2008/494 GNU emacs In-reply-to: <48956DFD.7000204@Sun.COM> To: Darren Reed Cc: psarc-ext@sun.com Message-id: <4895DD80.2090500@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-2.0.2 (emvision.com [198.182.198.5]); Sun, 03 Aug 2008 10:32:00 -0600 (MDT) X-Antispam: No, score=0.0/5.0, scanned in 0.052sec at (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smf-spamd v1.3.1 - http://smfs.sf.net/ References: <48936272.40101@Sun.COM> <48956DFD.7000204@Sun.COM> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.16 (Macintosh/20080707) Content-Length: 1288 Status: RO X-Status: $$$$ X-UID: 0000000029 Darren Reed wrote: > For a long time, various emacsy things have been delivered > as a part of SUNWspro (Sun's compiler package for Solaris), > the latest being 21.4.12 delivered in SS12. > > Has this project been in communication with the the developers > of SUNWspro to ensure that we don't get 2 emacs installations > when we install SUNWspro on a system with SUNWemacs*? > > Are there any interface problems for SUNWspro if it executes > "emacs" (consider SS12 being used with SUNWemacs*) and > ends up with a version of emacs running that it didn't deliver? > > Darren > There's not a conflict with this case. The emacs delivered by SUNWspro is Xemacs, not GNU emacs. Looking in the bin directory of SS12, I see xemacs, and xemacs-mule, which are symlinks to ../contrib/xemacs-21.4.12. So the command SUNWspro will be issuing is 'xemacs'. Not This Case But: When Xemacs does get integrated into SFW, there shouldn't be a conflict there either. Even today, SUNWspro is only one way in which a Solaris user is likely to have xemacs in their path, and probably not even the most likely such way. Many (most?) Xemacs users have a locally installed xemacs in their PATH ahead of the SUNWspro one. I'm sure the Sun Studio group has already had to grapple with this issue. - Ali From comay@izimbra.SFBay.Sun.COM Sun Aug 3 11:55:56 2008 Received: from sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m73IttEi022195 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 2008 11:55:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m73ItkDK012172; Mon, 4 Aug 2008 02:55:52 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0K5100D0XGL2LQ00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Sun, 03 Aug 2008 12:55:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from izimbra.SFBay.Sun.COM ([129.146.226.141]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0K510011TGL2FNC0@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Sun, 03 Aug 2008 12:55:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from izimbra.SFBay.Sun.COM (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by izimbra.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.14.3+Sun/8.14.3) with ESMTP id m73Itn9o004200; Sun, 03 Aug 2008 11:55:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from comay@localhost) by izimbra.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.14.3+Sun/8.14.3/Submit) id m73Itnw5004199; Sun, 03 Aug 2008 11:55:49 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2008 11:55:49 -0700 (PDT) From: David Comay Subject: Re: PSARC/2008/494 GNU emacs To: Ali.Bahrami@sun.com, psarc-ext@sun.com Message-id: <200808031855.m73Itnw5004199@izimbra.SFBay.Sun.COM> Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 Content-Length: 1181 Status: RO X-Status: $$$$ X-UID: 0000000030 > Emacs will be delivered in four packages: > > SUNWemacs > Core distribution, containing all files necessary to > run emacs, but not including the actual emacs binaries. > > SUNWemacs-el > Uncompiled LISP source files (.el), of interest to emacs > programmers only. The compiled versions of these files > (.elc) are included in the core SUNWemacs package. > > SUNWemacs-x > Emacs binaries built with X11 support using the > Athena (Xaw) toolkit. This package installs emacs > as /usr/bin/emacs-x. > > SUNWemacs-nox > Emacs binaries built as a pure tty based program, without > any linkage to the system X11 libraries. This package > installs emacs as /usr/bin/emacs-nox. I'm OK with these names although I should point out that most if not all of the *recent* additions of "official" GNU software have chosen names of the form SUNWgnu-. I think it would be worthwhile to be consistent here (the same would apply obviously to SUNWemacs-gtk). Longer term, it's my hope that we'll do some renaming anyway or support some sort of aliasing of names so users don't need to even worry about the "SUNW" prefix or even the "SUNWgnu-" part. dsc From gdamore@sun.com Sun Aug 3 14:52:41 2008 Received: from sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m73Lqe1V025444 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 2008 14:52:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m73LpwPh003383 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:psarc-ext@sun.com>; Mon, 4 Aug 2008 05:52:39 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0K5100J09ORN4400@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Sun, 03 Aug 2008 14:52:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sca-es-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.43.132]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0K51006BKORN8GC0@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Sun, 03 Aug 2008 14:52:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fe-sfbay-10.sun.com ([192.18.43.129]) by sca-es-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m73LqZMj019585 for ; Sun, 03 Aug 2008 14:52:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.fe-sfbay-10.sun.com by fe-sfbay-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0K5100B01OJ9M300@fe-sfbay-10.sun.com> (original mail from gdamore@sun.com) for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Sun, 03 Aug 2008 14:52:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.7.251.172] by fe-sfbay-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0K5100HFMORMS860@fe-sfbay-10.sun.com>; Sun, 03 Aug 2008 14:52:35 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2008 14:47:38 -0700 From: "Garrett D'Amore" Subject: Re: PSARC/2008/494 GNU emacs In-reply-to: <200808031855.m73Itnw5004199@izimbra.SFBay.Sun.COM> Sender: Garrett.Damore@sun.com To: David Comay Cc: Ali.Bahrami@sun.com, psarc-ext@sun.com Message-id: <4896277A.3060903@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <200808031855.m73Itnw5004199@izimbra.SFBay.Sun.COM> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.14 (X11/20080616) Content-Length: 1405 Status: RO X-Status: $$$$ X-UID: 0000000031 David Comay wrote: >> Emacs will be delivered in four packages: >> >> SUNWemacs >> Core distribution, containing all files necessary to >> run emacs, but not including the actual emacs binaries. >> >> SUNWemacs-el >> Uncompiled LISP source files (.el), of interest to emacs >> programmers only. The compiled versions of these files >> (.elc) are included in the core SUNWemacs package. >> >> SUNWemacs-x >> Emacs binaries built with X11 support using the >> Athena (Xaw) toolkit. This package installs emacs >> as /usr/bin/emacs-x. >> >> SUNWemacs-nox >> Emacs binaries built as a pure tty based program, without >> any linkage to the system X11 libraries. This package >> installs emacs as /usr/bin/emacs-nox. >> > > I'm OK with these names although I should point out that most if not > all of the *recent* additions of "official" GNU software have chosen > names of the form SUNWgnu-. I think it would be worthwhile > to be consistent here (the same would apply obviously to > SUNWemacs-gtk). > > Longer term, it's my hope that we'll do some renaming anyway or support > some sort of aliasing of names so users don't need to even worry about > the "SUNW" prefix or even the "SUNWgnu-" part. > > dsc > I thought IPS was steering folks away from knowing those names anyway... e.g. I run "pkg install firefox", not "pkgadd SUNWfirefox". -- Garrett From Darren.Moffat@Sun.COM Mon Aug 4 02:32:50 2008 Received: from sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m749Wn1V010706 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2008 02:32:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m749WT1m021462 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:psarc-ext@sun.com>; Mon, 4 Aug 2008 17:32:48 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0K5200701L6MLC00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Mon, 04 Aug 2008 02:32:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gmp-eb-inf-1.sun.com ([192.18.6.21]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0K520010TL6L5870@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Mon, 04 Aug 2008 02:32:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fe-emea-10.sun.com (gmp-eb-lb-2-fe1.eu.sun.com [192.18.6.10]) by gmp-eb-inf-1.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m749Wi7K027173 for ; Mon, 04 Aug 2008 09:32:44 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.fe-emea-10.sun.com by fe-emea-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0K5200D01J9GOW00@fe-emea-10.sun.com> (original mail from Darren.Moffat@Sun.COM) for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Mon, 04 Aug 2008 10:32:44 +0100 (BST) Received: from [129.156.173.21] by fe-emea-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0K5200H23L60UOA0@fe-emea-10.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Mon, 04 Aug 2008 10:32:25 +0100 (BST) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2008 10:32:24 +0100 From: Darren J Moffat Subject: Re: PSARC/2008/494 GNU emacs In-reply-to: <48937054.4070800@sun.com> Sender: Darren.Moffat@Sun.COM To: "Garrett D'Amore" Cc: psarc-ext@Sun.COM Message-id: <4896CCA8.3070102@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <48936272.40101@Sun.COM> <489365A4.2020609@Sun.Com> <18579.27101.949792.145396@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <48936E4E.1090204@Sun.COM> <48937054.4070800@sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.14 (X11/20080630) Content-Length: 1598 Status: RO X-Status: $$$$ X-UID: 0000000032 Garrett D'Amore wrote: > Since there is not yet any standard for minimizing Solaris -- at least > as distributed by Sun (and indeed Solaris is already rather large), can > I humbly suggest to the project team that they might want to consider > dropping this portion of the project. Other distribution builders that > want to deliver a system without X11 will have a larger task ahead of > them anyway, and can easily repackage emacs to their own taste if so > desired. Yes there is, while the URLs I mention below are out of date with respect to the OS versions it mentions the techniques still apply: ----- Updated Solaris Operating Environment Minimization for Security: A Simple, Reproducible and Secure Application Installation Methodolgy Updated for Solaris 8 Operating Environment -by Alex Noordergraaf http://www.sun.com/blueprints/1100/minimize-updt1.pdf ----- ----- Solaris Operating Environment Minimization for Security: A Simple, Reproducible and Secure Application Installation Methodology -by Keith Watson and Alex Noordergraaf Discuss OS minimization as a technique for reducing system vulnerabilities; a simple method for duplicating these installations on large numbers of servers is also introduced. http://www.sun.com/blueprints/1299/minimization.pdf ----- There have been updates to this for Solaris 9 and 10 but they weren't published as blueprints with "Minimization" in their titles. There has also been a lot of work done by 3rd Parties that Sun Security Ambassadors and Solaris Security group have endorsed and participated in. -- Darren J Moffat From ceri@submonkey.net Mon Aug 4 02:43:05 2008 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m749h4xe010785 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2008 02:43:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m749grEf012416 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:psarc-ext@sun.com>; Mon, 4 Aug 2008 10:43:03 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0K5200003LNPBK00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@Sun.COM); Mon, 04 Aug 2008 02:43:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sca-ea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.43.25]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0K5200LH6LNPLPE0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@Sun.COM); Mon, 04 Aug 2008 02:43:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay15i.sun.com (ip125.net129179-4.block1.us.syntegra.com [129.179.4.125]) by sca-ea-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m749eJb4014236 for ; Mon, 04 Aug 2008 09:43:01 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mmp11es.mmp.us.syntegra.com ([160.41.208.11] [160.41.208.11]) by relay15i.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-703919 for psarc-ext@Sun.COM; Mon, 04 Aug 2008 09:42:57 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay18i.sun.com (relay18i.sun.com [129.179.4.128]) by mmp11es.mmp.us.syntegra.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-28130937 for psarc-ext@Sun.COM; Mon, 04 Aug 2008 09:42:56 +0000 (Z) Received: from shrike.submonkey.net ([82.15.31.38] [82.15.31.38]) by relay1i.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-5358131 for psarc-ext@Sun.COM; Mon, 04 Aug 2008 09:42:56 +0000 (Z) Received: from ceri by shrike.submonkey.net with local (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1KPwac-0004cy-7I; Mon, 04 Aug 2008 10:42:54 +0100 Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2008 10:42:54 +0100 From: Ceri Davies Subject: Re: PSARC/2008/494 GNU emacs In-reply-to: <4896CCA8.3070102@Sun.COM> Sender: Ceri Davies To: Darren J Moffat Cc: "Garrett D'Amore" , psarc-ext@sun.com Message-id: <20080804094253.GA62471@submonkey.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary=RnlQjJ0d97Da+TV1 Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== X-PGP: finger ceri@FreeBSD.org X-Antispam: No, score=0.0/5.0, scanned in 0.071sec at (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smf-spamd v1.3.1 - http://smfs.sf.net/ References: <48936272.40101@Sun.COM> <489365A4.2020609@Sun.Com> <18579.27101.949792.145396@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <48936E4E.1090204@Sun.COM> <48937054.4070800@sun.com> <4896CCA8.3070102@Sun.COM> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.17 (2007-11-01) Content-Length: 2547 Status: RO X-Status: $$$$ X-UID: 0000000033 --RnlQjJ0d97Da+TV1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Aug 04, 2008 at 10:32:24AM +0100, Darren J Moffat wrote: > Garrett D'Amore wrote: > > Since there is not yet any standard for minimizing Solaris -- at least= =20 > > as distributed by Sun (and indeed Solaris is already rather large), can= =20 > > I humbly suggest to the project team that they might want to consider= =20 > > dropping this portion of the project. Other distribution builders that= =20 > > want to deliver a system without X11 will have a larger task ahead of= =20 > > them anyway, and can easily repackage emacs to their own taste if so=20 > > desired. >=20 > Yes there is, while the URLs I mention below are out of date with=20 > respect to the OS versions it mentions the techniques still apply: >=20 > ----- > Updated Solaris Operating Environment Minimization for Security: A=20 > Simple, Reproducible and Secure Application Installation Methodolgy=20 > Updated for Solaris 8 Operating Environment > -by Alex Noordergraaf >=20 > http://www.sun.com/blueprints/1100/minimize-updt1.pdf > ----- >=20 > ----- > Solaris Operating Environment Minimization for Security: A Simple,=20 > Reproducible and Secure Application Installation Methodology > -by Keith Watson and Alex Noordergraaf > Discuss OS minimization as a technique for reducing system=20 > vulnerabilities; a simple method for duplicating these installations on= =20 > large numbers of servers is also introduced. >=20 > http://www.sun.com/blueprints/1299/minimization.pdf > ----- >=20 > There have been updates to this for Solaris 9 and 10 but they weren't=20 > published as blueprints with "Minimization" in their titles. There has= =20 > also been a lot of work done by 3rd Parties that Sun Security=20 > Ambassadors and Solaris Security group have endorsed and participated in. The Security community has also produced "Rules of Engagement for the Support of Reduced or Minimal Configurations" - see http://www.opensolaris.org/os/community/security/files/minimization-support= -rules-ext.pdf Ceri --=20 That must be wonderful! I don't understand it at all. -- Moliere --RnlQjJ0d97Da+TV1 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFIls8docfcwTS3JF8RAvh+AKCypUIBzCLRGH1LlxLPQCDAoSyyPACfQcWF RdS15BLQtzlKUo1VzSPHkvw= =CZym -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --RnlQjJ0d97Da+TV1-- From Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com Mon Aug 4 07:58:34 2008 Received: from newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (newsunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.245]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m74EwYuE017589 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2008 07:58:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m74EwSLL041385 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:psarc-ext@sun.com>; Mon, 4 Aug 2008 08:58:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0K5300A1X09L2I00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Mon, 04 Aug 2008 07:58:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sca-es-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.43.133]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0K530099M09JWR00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Mon, 04 Aug 2008 07:58:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fe-sfbay-09.sun.com ([192.18.43.129]) by sca-es-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m74EwVlm015987 for ; Mon, 04 Aug 2008 07:58:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.fe-sfbay-09.sun.com by fe-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0K530000104U4Z00@fe-sfbay-09.sun.com> (original mail from Alan.Coopersmith@Sun.COM) for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Mon, 04 Aug 2008 07:58:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.6.102.118] by fe-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0K530002609F3R10@fe-sfbay-09.sun.com>; Mon, 04 Aug 2008 07:58:27 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2008 07:58:27 -0700 From: Alan Coopersmith Subject: Re: PSARC/2008/494 GNU emacs In-reply-to: <4896277A.3060903@sun.com> Sender: Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com To: "Garrett D'Amore" Cc: David Comay , Ali.Bahrami@sun.com, psarc-ext@sun.com Message-id: <48971913.2020108@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.1 References: <200808031855.m73Itnw5004199@izimbra.SFBay.Sun.COM> <4896277A.3060903@sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (X11/20071119) Content-Length: 400 Status: RO X-Status: $$$$ X-UID: 0000000034 Garrett D'Amore wrote: > I thought IPS was steering folks away from knowing those names anyway... > e.g. I run "pkg install firefox", not "pkgadd SUNWfirefox". No, it's steering us away from having those names at all, e.g. your package is named application/firefox, not SUNWfirefox. -- -Alan Coopersmith- alan.coopersmith@sun.com Sun Microsystems, Inc. - X Window System Engineering From Ali.Bahrami@sun.com Mon Aug 4 12:06:32 2008 Received: from newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (newsunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.245]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m74J6V0T027159 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2008 12:06:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m74J6S4t011574 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:psarc-ext@sun.com>; Mon, 4 Aug 2008 13:06:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0K530070PBQT4B00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Mon, 04 Aug 2008 12:06:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.98.43]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0K5300MY5BQSQF90@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Mon, 04 Aug 2008 12:06:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fe-amer-10.sun.com ([192.18.109.80]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m74J6Sam006949 for ; Mon, 04 Aug 2008 19:06:28 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.mail-amer.sun.com by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0K5300H01B2GHR00@mail-amer.sun.com> (original mail from Ali.Bahrami@Sun.COM) for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Mon, 04 Aug 2008 13:06:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [172.20.25.67] by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0K5300HJGBQKFID0@mail-amer.sun.com>; Mon, 04 Aug 2008 13:06:21 -0600 (MDT) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2008 13:06:20 -0600 From: Ali Bahrami Subject: Re: PSARC/2008/494 GNU emacs In-reply-to: <200808031855.m73Itnw5004199@izimbra.SFBay.Sun.COM> Sender: Ali.Bahrami@sun.com To: David Comay Cc: Ali.Bahrami@sun.com, psarc-ext@sun.com Message-id: <4897532C.6080304@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <200808031855.m73Itnw5004199@izimbra.SFBay.Sun.COM> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.12 (X11/20080228) Content-Length: 2019 Status: RO X-Status: $$$$ X-UID: 0000000035 David Comay wrote: >> Emacs will be delivered in four packages: >> >> SUNWemacs >> Core distribution, containing all files necessary to >> run emacs, but not including the actual emacs binaries. >> >> SUNWemacs-el >> Uncompiled LISP source files (.el), of interest to emacs >> programmers only. The compiled versions of these files >> (.elc) are included in the core SUNWemacs package. >> >> SUNWemacs-x >> Emacs binaries built with X11 support using the >> Athena (Xaw) toolkit. This package installs emacs >> as /usr/bin/emacs-x. >> >> SUNWemacs-nox >> Emacs binaries built as a pure tty based program, without >> any linkage to the system X11 libraries. This package >> installs emacs as /usr/bin/emacs-nox. > > I'm OK with these names although I should point out that most if not > all of the *recent* additions of "official" GNU software have chosen > names of the form SUNWgnu-. I think it would be worthwhile > to be consistent here (the same would apply obviously to > SUNWemacs-gtk). > > Longer term, it's my hope that we'll do some renaming anyway or support > some sort of aliasing of names so users don't need to even worry about > the "SUNW" prefix or even the "SUNWgnu-" part. > > dsc I am willing to rename the the packages. They would become: SUNWgnu-emacs SUNWgnu-emacs-x SUNWgnu-emacs-nox SUNWgnu-emacs-el and maybe SUNWgnu-emacs-gtk I am concerned that I might be renaming them, only to have them renamed again shortly afterwards. There doesn't seem to be a solid consensus around how package names should work under IPS, and don't want to be an early adopter of something that is going to change soon. On the other hand, there are 11 packages in snv_95 with this SUNWgnu- convention (David tells me this convention is 6-9 months old) which makes it as close to a standard as we have. So I will make this change, unless directed otherwise by the ARC. Note that the actual command names (/usr/bin/emacs, etc) are not affected by this. - Ali From Ali.Bahrami@sun.com Wed Aug 6 10:51:29 2008 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m76HpSsb018006 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2008 10:51:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m76HpN6g027146 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:psarc-ext@sun.com>; Wed, 6 Aug 2008 18:51:28 +0100 (BST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0K560040ZXLQLJ00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 06 Aug 2008 11:51:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com ([192.18.98.34]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0K5600E01XLP2EE0@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 06 Aug 2008 11:51:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from fe-amer-10.sun.com ([192.18.109.80]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m76HpPpt019820 for ; Wed, 06 Aug 2008 17:51:25 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.mail-amer.sun.com by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0K5600K01XAX8G00@mail-amer.sun.com> (original mail from Ali.Bahrami@Sun.COM) for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 06 Aug 2008 11:51:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [172.20.25.67] by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0K5600J84XLDNFD0@mail-amer.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Wed, 06 Aug 2008 11:51:13 -0600 (MDT) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2008 11:51:13 -0600 From: Ali Bahrami Subject: Re: PSARC/2008/494 GNU emacs In-reply-to: <48936272.40101@Sun.COM> Sender: Ali.Bahrami@sun.com To: PSARC-ext@sun.com Message-id: <4899E491.8020802@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <48936272.40101@Sun.COM> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.12 (X11/20080228) Content-Length: 49 Status: RO X-Status: $$$$ X-UID: 0000000036 This case was approved in today's PSARC meeting.