From jbeck@eng.sun.com Tue Dec 9 15:31:42 2008 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id mB9NVgLG003851 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 2008 15:31:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from opal.eng.sun.com (opal.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.228.54]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id mB9NVgH0003879 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 2008 15:31:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from opal.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by opal.eng.sun.com (8.14.3+Sun/8.14.3) with ESMTP id mB9NVbJK010405 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 9 Dec 2008 15:31:37 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jbeck@localhost) by opal.eng.sun.com (8.14.3+Sun/8.14.3/Submit) id mB9NVWuZ010401; Tue, 9 Dec 2008 15:31:32 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 15:31:32 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <200812092331.mB9NVWuZ010401@opal.eng.sun.com> From: jbeck@eng.sun.com (John Beck) To: PSARC-ext@sun.com Cc: ceri@submonkey.net, jbeck@eng.sun.com Subject: mailwrapper [PSARC/2008/759 FastTrack timeout 12/17/2008] Status: RO Content-Length: 791 Template Version: @(#)sac_nextcase %I% %G% SMI This information is Copyright 2008 Sun Microsystems 1. Introduction 1.1. Project/Component Working Name: mailwrapper 1.2. Name of Document Author/Supplier: Author: Ceri Davies 1.3 Date of This Document: 09 December, 2008 4. Technical Description I am sponsoring this fast-track for Ceri Davies. As indicated in the one-pager, the interfaces are a combination of Committed and Project Private and the requested release binding is Minor. Because it is already late on Tuesday, I am setting the timer for a week from tomorrow: 2008-Dec-17. 6. Resources and Schedule 6.4. Steering Committee requested information 6.4.1. Consolidation C-team Name: ON 6.5. ARC review type: FastTrack 6.6. ARC Exposure: open From jbeck@eng.sun.com Tue Dec 9 16:03:25 2008 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id mBA03P1U002281 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 2008 16:03:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from opal.eng.sun.com (opal.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.228.54]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id mBA03O7f016398 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 2008 16:03:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from opal (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by opal.eng.sun.com (8.14.3+Sun/8.14.3) with ESMTP id mBA03JHr010849; Tue, 9 Dec 2008 16:03:19 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <200812100003.mBA03JHr010849@opal.eng.sun.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.7.2 2005-Jan-07 with nmh-1.0.3 To: PSARC-ext@sun.com Cc: Ceri Davies , John Beck Subject: mailwrapper (PSARC/2008/759) X-Image-URL: http://playground.sun.com/~jbeck/gif/Misc/john-face.jpg Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2008 16:03:19 -0800 From: John Beck Status: RO Content-Length: 2010 I am sponsoring this fast-track for Ceri Davies. As indicated below, the interfaces are a combination of Committed and Project Private and the requested release binding is Minor. Because it is already late on Tuesday, I am setting the timer for a week from tomorrow: 2008-Dec-17. --- * Problem The programmatic interface to sendmail involves exec'ing a program named /usr/lib/sendmail (or, outside Solaris, /usr/sbin/sendmail). Administrators wishing to use an alternate MTA have to replace that binary, which generally doesn't play all that well with packaging and upgrade (sendmail isn't an editable file; multiple packages delivering the same file is considered a no-no, etc.,). * Solution The common BSD distributions (FreeBSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD) include a program called "mailwrapper" which allows for easy, packaging-safe selection of the shell-command level interface to the default system MTA. /usr/sbin/sendmail is a symlink to the mailwrapper binary, and the "real" sendmail is installed somewhere else (on the *BSDs, this is /usr/libexec/sendmail/sendmail). A default mailer.conf is delivered so that mailwrapper exec's through to the real sendmail binary; an admin wishing to select an alternate MTA will install it wherever they like (/opt, /usr/pkg, etc.) and then edit the mailer.conf file as appropriate for the new MTA. * Interface changes Exported Interfaces Stability Comments ------------------- --------- -------- /etc/mail/mailer.conf Committed Configuration file /usr/sbin/mailwrapper Committed Executable /usr/lib/sendmail-mta Project Private Private executable files * Man page changes * New mailer.conf(4) manpage. * New mailwrapper(1M) manpage. * sendmail(1M), mailq(1) and newaliases(1M) updated to refer to the above. Old, new and diffs in case materials directory. * Release binding Delivering via a patch may be difficult, therefore we request Minor release binding. -- John http://blogs.sun.com/jbeck From danek.duvall@sun.com Tue Dec 9 16:09:44 2008 Received: from sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id mBA09h88024503 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 2008 16:09:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id mBA09X9E003668 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-ext@sun.com>; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 08:09:42 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0KBM00307WG2GN00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Tue, 09 Dec 2008 17:09:38 -0700 (MST) Received: from dm-sfbay-02.sfbay.sun.com ([129.146.11.31]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0KBM00E6ZWG2BLB0@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Tue, 09 Dec 2008 17:09:38 -0700 (MST) Received: from mumak.SFBay.Sun.COM (mumak.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.229.4]) by dm-sfbay-02.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id mBA09bTP024007; Tue, 09 Dec 2008 16:09:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from mumak.SFBay.Sun.COM (mumak [127.0.0.1]) by mumak.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.14.3+Sun/8.14.3) with ESMTP id mBA0BBJ2027970; Tue, 09 Dec 2008 16:11:11 -0800 (PST) Received: (from dduvall@localhost) by mumak.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.14.3+Sun/8.14.3/Submit) id mBA0BBqN027969; Tue, 09 Dec 2008 16:11:11 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2008 16:11:11 -0800 From: Danek Duvall Subject: Re: mailwrapper (PSARC/2008/759) In-reply-to: <200812100003.mBA03JHr010849@opal.eng.sun.com> To: John Beck Cc: PSARC-ext@sun.com, Ceri Davies Message-id: <20081210001111.GD7263@mumak.SFBay.Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <200812100003.mBA03JHr010849@opal.eng.sun.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.16 (2007-06-27) Status: RO Content-Length: 562 On Tue, Dec 09, 2008 at 04:03:19PM -0800, John Beck wrote: > The common BSD distributions (FreeBSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD) include a > program called "mailwrapper" which allows for easy, packaging-safe > selection of the shell-command level interface to the default system > MTA. /usr/sbin/sendmail is a symlink to the mailwrapper binary, and > the "real" sendmail is installed somewhere else (on the *BSDs, > this is /usr/libexec/sendmail/sendmail). What's the point of /usr/sbin/mailwrapper? Why isn't it just installed as /usr/sbin/sendmail? Danek From john.plocher@gmail.com Tue Dec 9 16:19:06 2008 Received: from newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (newsunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.245]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id mBA0J5XZ020504 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 2008 16:19:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id mBA0J1P9007112 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-ext@sun.com>; Tue, 9 Dec 2008 17:19:05 -0700 (MST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0KBM0041JWVROW00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Tue, 09 Dec 2008 16:19:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.98.31]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0KBM003QHWVQKH40@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Tue, 09 Dec 2008 16:19:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay11i.sun.com (ip121.net129179-4.block1.us.syntegra.com [129.179.4.121]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id mBA0EoNc017104 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 00:19:02 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mmp12es.mmp.us.syntegra.com ([160.41.208.12] [160.41.208.12]) by relay11i.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-398103 for PSARC-ext@sun.com; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 00:19:02 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay11i.sun.com (relay11i.sun.com [129.179.4.121]) by mmp12es.mmp.us.syntegra.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-17358224 for PSARC-ext@sun.com; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 00:19:02 +0000 (Z) Received: from yw-out-1718.google.com ([74.125.46.155] [74.125.46.155]) by relay1ib.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-825493 for PSARC-ext@sun.com; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 00:19:02 +0000 (Z) Received: by yw-out-1718.google.com with SMTP id 9so127839ywk.68 for ; Tue, 09 Dec 2008 16:18:52 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.90.96.15 with SMTP id t15mr539446agb.37.1228868332773; Tue, 09 Dec 2008 16:18:52 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.90.31.7 with HTTP; Tue, 09 Dec 2008 16:18:52 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2008 16:18:52 -0800 From: John Plocher Subject: Re: mailwrapper (PSARC/2008/759) In-reply-to: <20081210001111.GD7263@mumak.SFBay.Sun.COM> To: Danek Duvall Cc: John Beck , PSARC-ext@sun.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to :subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=11AH1cokLMWtqJLBNXZueIiEdDYX8dD0FpWGwnVN/zU=; b=KG1hFxrliR7p2xrMMhA9rVkAFFV4tu08UFcxpNq/Lb23dRxmrRNl8uavAh7FXmlazF IJErgKqFCbxUQT92HG1r/TsHGZ+c89Td8JUsotbJrWEAGpznJUb+psUiF/XgoHQHDhLQ ouAHHEcONAhthZ22JtvKM3+TbKbQhknwO9cqQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition :references; b=GamBqCIfYCp1J2aziET9KHm2m8En26z5GbPlizzozwKP057TnCsaegh8TjOYYfvHow Iu6+0z4CAblNIq1hmRnygovY2jWcOkuhBEB3D5KJ/YxX7VS7qHoLST3gb2Zdqb1/7Uq2 kqDdJjWUP9kj0jdzrbxy5tNOkuEuYFzR6pBDc= X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== X-Antispam: No, score=0.0/5.0, scanned in 0.061sec at (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smf-spamd v1.3.1 - http://smfs.sf.net/ References: <200812100003.mBA03JHr010849@opal.eng.sun.com> <20081210001111.GD7263@mumak.SFBay.Sun.COM> Status: RO Content-Length: 1305 Danek: What if i wish to use an alternative MTA, like postfix or exim? Renaming or removing the sendmail binary is the "wrong" way to do that, as is hardcoding "sendmail" (or postfix or exim) into the various client programs. JBeck: I *am* confused about mailwrapper being a symlink to sendmail, rather than being something that would work even if sendmail was not installed at all, which seems to be the whole point of having a mailwrapper-like abstraction in the first place. Or am I missing something obvious here? -John On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 4:11 PM, Danek Duvall wrote: > On Tue, Dec 09, 2008 at 04:03:19PM -0800, John Beck wrote: > >> The common BSD distributions (FreeBSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD) include a >> program called "mailwrapper" which allows for easy, packaging-safe >> selection of the shell-command level interface to the default system >> MTA. /usr/sbin/sendmail is a symlink to the mailwrapper binary, and >> the "real" sendmail is installed somewhere else (on the *BSDs, >> this is /usr/libexec/sendmail/sendmail). > > What's the point of /usr/sbin/mailwrapper? Why isn't it just installed as > /usr/sbin/sendmail? > > Danek > _______________________________________________ > opensolaris-arc mailing list > opensolaris-arc@opensolaris.org > From jbeck@eng.sun.com Tue Dec 9 16:24:10 2008 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id mBA0OAaW020542 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 2008 16:24:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from opal.eng.sun.com (opal.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.228.54]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id mBA0OAeO023265; Tue, 9 Dec 2008 16:24:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from opal (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by opal.eng.sun.com (8.14.3+Sun/8.14.3) with ESMTP id mBA0O4D4011115; Tue, 9 Dec 2008 16:24:04 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <200812100024.mBA0O4D4011115@opal.eng.sun.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.7.2 2005-Jan-07 with nmh-1.0.3 To: John Plocher cc: Danek Duvall , John Beck , PSARC-ext@sun.com Subject: Re: mailwrapper (PSARC/2008/759) X-Image-URL: http://playground.sun.com/~jbeck/gif/Misc/john-face.jpg In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 09 Dec 2008 16:18:52 PST." References: <200812100003.mBA03JHr010849@opal.eng.sun.com> <20081210001111.GD7263@mumak.SFBay.Sun.COM> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2008 16:24:04 -0800 From: John Beck Status: RO Content-Length: 686 Ceri> /usr/sbin/sendmail is a symlink to the mailwrapper binary, and Ceri> the "real" sendmail is installed somewhere else ... Plocher> JBeck: I *am* confused about mailwrapper being a symlink to Plocher> sendmail, rather than being something that would work even if Plocher> sendmail was not installed at all, which seems to be the whole Plocher> point of having a mailwrapper-like abstraction in the first Plocher> place. Or am I missing something obvious here? Read what Ceri wrote again: mailwrapper is not a sym-link, but an actual binary file; whereas sendmail becomes a link to mailwrapper. :-) I'll let Ceri reply to Danek's question. -- John http://blogs.sun.com/jbeck From danek.duvall@sun.com Tue Dec 9 16:26:11 2008 Received: from sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id mBA0QASY020561 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 2008 16:26:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id mBA0Q2c1011434 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-ext@sun.com>; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 08:26:09 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0KBM0050HX7K9O00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Tue, 09 Dec 2008 17:26:08 -0700 (MST) Received: from dm-sfbay-02.sfbay.sun.com ([129.146.11.31]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0KBM00E7LX7KBAC0@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Tue, 09 Dec 2008 17:26:08 -0700 (MST) Received: from mumak.SFBay.Sun.COM (mumak.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.229.4]) by dm-sfbay-02.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id mBA0Q7P1033815; Tue, 09 Dec 2008 16:26:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from mumak.SFBay.Sun.COM (mumak [127.0.0.1]) by mumak.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.14.3+Sun/8.14.3) with ESMTP id mBA0Rfau028302; Tue, 09 Dec 2008 16:27:41 -0800 (PST) Received: (from dduvall@localhost) by mumak.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.14.3+Sun/8.14.3/Submit) id mBA0RfYt028301; Tue, 09 Dec 2008 16:27:41 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2008 16:27:41 -0800 From: Danek Duvall Subject: Re: mailwrapper (PSARC/2008/759) In-reply-to: To: John Plocher Cc: John Beck , PSARC-ext@sun.com Message-id: <20081210002741.GF7263@mumak.SFBay.Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <200812100003.mBA03JHr010849@opal.eng.sun.com> <20081210001111.GD7263@mumak.SFBay.Sun.COM> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.16 (2007-06-27) Status: RO Content-Length: 789 On Tue, Dec 09, 2008 at 04:18:52PM -0800, John Plocher wrote: > Danek: > What if i wish to use an alternative MTA, like postfix or exim? Renaming or > removing the sendmail binary is the "wrong" way to do that, as is hardcoding > "sendmail" (or postfix or exim) into the various client programs. The whole point is that just about every program which doesn't build in its own mail transmission code calls /usr/lib/sendmail with a standard set of options. Given that, you can put a glorified commandline processor at /usr/lib/sendmail (or /usr/sbin/sendmail, whatev) which then forks off the appropriate / configured "real" MTA. It will (or will it?), of course, break anything that expects a real sendmail binary to be at /usr/lib/sendmail, but that's hardly the usual case. Danek From Darren.Reed@sun.com Tue Dec 9 16:28:28 2008 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id mBA0SR23020595 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 2008 16:28:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id mBA0SL88019932 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-ext@sun.com>; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 00:28:26 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0KBM0050LXBDB300@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Tue, 09 Dec 2008 16:28:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from gmp-eb-inf-1.sun.com ([192.18.6.21]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0KBM0032VXBBKH70@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Tue, 09 Dec 2008 16:28:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from fe-emea-10.sun.com (gmp-eb-lb-2-fe3.eu.sun.com [192.18.6.12]) by gmp-eb-inf-1.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id mBA0SNke005923 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 00:28:23 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.fe-emea-10.sun.com by fe-emea-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0KBM00L01X8X1I00@fe-emea-10.sun.com> (original mail from Darren.Reed@Sun.COM) for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Wed, 10 Dec 2008 00:28:23 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [129.158.90.168] by fe-emea-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0KBM00DPUXB8W3C0@fe-emea-10.sun.com>; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 00:28:23 +0000 (GMT) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 11:28:16 +1100 From: Darren Reed Subject: Re: mailwrapper (PSARC/2008/759) In-reply-to: <200812100003.mBA03JHr010849@opal.eng.sun.com> Sender: Darren.Reed@sun.com To: John Beck Cc: PSARC-ext@sun.com, Ceri Davies Message-id: <493F0D20.109@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <200812100003.mBA03JHr010849@opal.eng.sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.18 (Windows/20081105) Status: RO Content-Length: 338 John, What's the plan for mailx(1) use of of mailwrapper? Is it intended for mailx(1) to remain as a frontend to sendmail (only) or will it also use mailwrapper(1M)? If it's going to use mailwrapper(1M), then this case looks a bit incomplete as mailx(1) seems to suggest a few bits of its functionality are tied to sendmail... Darren From ceri@submonkey.net Wed Dec 10 02:03:07 2008 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id mBAA35qm004057 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 02:03:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id mBAA33Kg020574 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-ext@sun.com>; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 10:03:04 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0KBN00G03NX3GP00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@Sun.COM); Wed, 10 Dec 2008 03:03:03 -0700 (MST) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.98.31]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0KBN00G1SNX2EF00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@Sun.COM); Wed, 10 Dec 2008 03:03:02 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay13i.sun.com (ip123.net129179-4.block1.us.syntegra.com [129.179.4.123]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id mBA9v9gL012982 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 10:03:02 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mmp11es.mmp.us.syntegra.com ([160.41.208.11] [160.41.208.11]) by relay13i.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-299154 for PSARC-ext@Sun.COM; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 10:03:02 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay13i.sun.com (relay13i.sun.com [129.179.4.123]) by mmp11es.mmp.us.syntegra.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-17754937 for PSARC-ext@Sun.COM; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 10:03:02 +0000 (Z) Received: from scuttle.submonkey.net ([208.111.43.184] [208.111.43.184]) by relay1ib.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-4737159 for PSARC-ext@Sun.COM; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 10:03:01 +0000 (Z) Received: from cpc1-cdif1-0-0-cust63.cdif.cable.ntl.com ([81.104.164.64] helo=shrike.submonkey.net) by scuttle.submonkey.net with esmtpsa (TLSv1:DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1LALuG-0000r6-G4; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 10:03:00 +0000 Received: from ceri by shrike.submonkey.net with local (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1LALuE-000IsT-Kc; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 10:02:58 +0000 Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 10:02:58 +0000 From: Ceri Davies Subject: Re: mailwrapper (PSARC/2008/759) In-reply-to: <493F0D20.109@Sun.COM> Sender: Ceri Davies To: Darren Reed Cc: John Beck , PSARC-ext@sun.com Message-id: <20081210100258.GA20674@submonkey.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary=5vNYLRcllDrimb99 Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== X-PGP: finger ceri@FreeBSD.org X-Antispam: No, score=0.0/5.0, scanned in 0.105sec at (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smf-spamd v1.3.1 - http://smfs.sf.net/ References: <200812100003.mBA03JHr010849@opal.eng.sun.com> <493F0D20.109@Sun.COM> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Status: RO Content-Length: 1314 --5vNYLRcllDrimb99 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 11:28:16AM +1100, Darren Reed wrote: > John, >=20 > What's the plan for mailx(1) use of of mailwrapper? > Is it intended for mailx(1) to remain as a frontend to sendmail > (only) or will it also use mailwrapper(1M)? >=20 > If it's going to use mailwrapper(1M), then this case looks > a bit incomplete as mailx(1) seems to suggest a few bits > of its functionality are tied to sendmail... General usage is covered by an entry for "mail" in mailer.conf. The "conv" functionality, while alluding to a (undocumented) -U option to sendmail(1M), is implemented internally to mailx(1). I can see -h, -m/metoo and possibly -v/verbose being an issue if a user decides to switch out sendmail; would warnings in the manuals cover this? Ceri --=20 That must be wonderful! I don't understand it at all. -- Moliere --5vNYLRcllDrimb99 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFJP5PSocfcwTS3JF8RApGyAJ91SAqsf1jvpWby6XI88XDrNyYp7gCeIFsj S2jDBdu8soGdgCBtdueSO4g= =LZUZ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --5vNYLRcllDrimb99-- From ceri@submonkey.net Wed Dec 10 02:08:54 2008 Received: from newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (newsunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.245]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id mBAA8sxn004077 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 02:08:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id mBAA8rcC010895 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-ext@sun.com>; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 03:08:54 -0700 (MST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0KBN00109O6SUI00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Wed, 10 Dec 2008 02:08:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from sca-ea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.43.25]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0KBN00HQGO6ROA50@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Wed, 10 Dec 2008 02:08:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay15i.sun.com (ip125.net129179-4.block1.us.syntegra.com [129.179.4.125]) by sca-ea-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id mBAA0GWt009863 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 10:08:51 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mmp13es.mmp.us.syntegra.com ([160.41.208.13] [160.41.208.13]) by relay15i.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-115959 for PSARC-ext@sun.com; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 10:08:51 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay14i.sun.com (relay14i.sun.com [129.179.4.124]) by mmp13es.mmp.us.syntegra.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-46055 for PSARC-ext@sun.com; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 10:08:51 +0000 (Z) Received: from scuttle.submonkey.net ([208.111.43.184] [208.111.43.184]) by relay1ib.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-4807864 for PSARC-ext@sun.com; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 10:08:50 +0000 (Z) Received: from cpc1-cdif1-0-0-cust63.cdif.cable.ntl.com ([81.104.164.64] helo=shrike.submonkey.net) by scuttle.submonkey.net with esmtpsa (TLSv1:DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1LALzs-0000yZ-Dq; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 10:08:48 +0000 Received: from ceri by shrike.submonkey.net with local (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1LALzq-00084U-IZ; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 10:08:46 +0000 Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 10:08:46 +0000 From: Ceri Davies Subject: Re: mailwrapper (PSARC/2008/759) In-reply-to: <20081210002741.GF7263@mumak.SFBay.Sun.COM> Sender: Ceri Davies To: Danek Duvall Cc: John Plocher , John Beck , PSARC-ext@sun.com Message-id: <20081210100846.GB20674@submonkey.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary=OwLcNYc0lM97+oe1 Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== X-PGP: finger ceri@FreeBSD.org X-Antispam: No, score=0.0/5.0, scanned in 0.067sec at (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smf-spamd v1.3.1 - http://smfs.sf.net/ References: <200812100003.mBA03JHr010849@opal.eng.sun.com> <20081210001111.GD7263@mumak.SFBay.Sun.COM> <20081210002741.GF7263@mumak.SFBay.Sun.COM> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Status: RO Content-Length: 1968 --OwLcNYc0lM97+oe1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Dec 09, 2008 at 04:27:41PM -0800, Danek Duvall wrote: > On Tue, Dec 09, 2008 at 04:18:52PM -0800, John Plocher wrote: >=20 > > Danek: > > What if i wish to use an alternative MTA, like postfix or exim? Rena= ming or > > removing the sendmail binary is the "wrong" way to do that, as is hardc= oding > > "sendmail" (or postfix or exim) into the various client programs. >=20 > The whole point is that just about every program which doesn't build in i= ts > own mail transmission code calls /usr/lib/sendmail with a standard set of > options. Given that, you can put a glorified commandline processor at > /usr/lib/sendmail (or /usr/sbin/sendmail, whatev) which then forks off the > appropriate / configured "real" MTA. That's exactly what this case proposes. I've preserved /usr/sbin/sendmail because I don't really know what it's doing there. I don't want to call the mailwrapper binary /usr/sbin/sendmail because it would probably end up being removed by anyone trying to replace sendmail. There's a case to be made for moving /usr/sbin/mailwrapper to /usr/lib though. > It will (or will it?), of course, break anything that expects a real > sendmail binary to be at /usr/lib/sendmail, but that's hardly the usual > case. There's nothing in ON that performs such a check and I don't really expect software from elsewhere to do so, as everyone else has their binary in /usr/sbin/sendmail. Ceri --=20 That must be wonderful! I don't understand it at all. -- Moliere --OwLcNYc0lM97+oe1 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFJP5UuocfcwTS3JF8RAj/OAKDFjgnS5FlxX05KlkfOxbVWaqcgtwCfaX8/ OF3VEJifXmuQpullgBKfQ2Y= =jEn0 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --OwLcNYc0lM97+oe1-- From carlsonj@phorcys.east.sun.com Wed Dec 10 07:27:21 2008 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id mBAFRLVd025316 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 07:27:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id mBAFRK30002621; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 07:27:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0KBO0010R2XK1900@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 08:27:20 -0700 (MST) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com ([129.148.174.143]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0KBO00FDZ2XI7O70@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 08:27:19 -0700 (MST) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.3+Sun/8.14.3) with ESMTP id mBAFCF6e014324; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 10:12:15 -0500 (EST) Received: (from carlsonj@localhost) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.3+Sun/8.14.3/Submit) id mBAFC9lg014321; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 10:12:09 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 10:12:09 -0500 From: James Carlson Subject: Re: mailwrapper (PSARC/2008/759) In-reply-to: <20081210100846.GB20674@submonkey.net> To: Ceri Davies Cc: Danek Duvall , PSARC-ext@sun.com, John Plocher Message-id: <18751.56393.430303.879246@gargle.gargle.HOWL> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: VM 7.01 under Emacs 21.3.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <200812100003.mBA03JHr010849@opal.eng.sun.com> <20081210001111.GD7263@mumak.SFBay.Sun.COM> <20081210002741.GF7263@mumak.SFBay.Sun.COM> <20081210100846.GB20674@submonkey.net> Status: RO Content-Length: 1994 Ceri Davies writes: > On Tue, Dec 09, 2008 at 04:27:41PM -0800, Danek Duvall wrote: > > The whole point is that just about every program which doesn't build in its > > own mail transmission code calls /usr/lib/sendmail with a standard set of > > options. Given that, you can put a glorified commandline processor at > > /usr/lib/sendmail (or /usr/sbin/sendmail, whatev) which then forks off the > > appropriate / configured "real" MTA. > > That's exactly what this case proposes. I've preserved > /usr/sbin/sendmail because I don't really know what it's doing there. > I don't want to call the mailwrapper binary /usr/sbin/sendmail because > it would probably end up being removed by anyone trying to replace > sendmail. I don't think we need to try to code around people who deliberately damage their systems. Especially so when the attempt here is unsuccessful -- if someone does munge /usr/lib/sendmail, the new "mailwrapper" won't be referenced at all because existing programs use the /usr/lib/sendmail path explicitly, so having the mailwrapper bits rotating around on the disk unused won't actually fix anything. A big +1 for delivering a wrapper in place of /usr/lib/sendmail, but not for the introduction of a new /usr/sbin/mailwrapper binary -- it seems exceedingly unlikely that anybody would ever use that new pathname, so it'd serve no purpose. I _think_ your idea here was to allow for a way to people to "fix" their systems after having damaged them. But such a way already exists -- just reinstall the package. We even include packaging tools to detect when packaged bits are damaged in the first place. We don't need to squirrel away binaries in unused areas "in case" someone needs to recover them. Simplify: just replace the sendmail path. -- James Carlson, Solaris Networking Sun Microsystems / 35 Network Drive 71.232W Vox +1 781 442 2084 MS UBUR02-212 / Burlington MA 01803-2757 42.496N Fax +1 781 442 1677 From ceri@submonkey.net Wed Dec 10 07:59:12 2008 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id mBAFxBdS026755 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 07:59:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id mBAFwG8k019813 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-ext@sun.com>; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 15:59:11 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0KBO00E3J4EKJ000@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@Sun.COM); Wed, 10 Dec 2008 07:59:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com ([192.18.98.34]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0KBO00D8M4EJDT20@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@Sun.COM); Wed, 10 Dec 2008 07:59:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay21.sun.com (relay21.sun.com [192.12.251.24] (may be forged)) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id mBAFtqT0013042 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 15:59:06 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mms22es.mms.us.syntegra.com ([150.143.232.30] [150.143.232.30]) by relay21i.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-1114426 for PSARC-ext@Sun.COM; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 15:59:06 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay23.sun.com (relay23.sun.com [192.12.251.54]) by mms22es.mms.us.syntegra.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-17670521 for PSARC-ext@Sun.COM; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 15:59:06 +0000 (Z) Received: from scuttle.submonkey.net ([208.111.43.184] [208.111.43.184]) by relay23i.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-21752321 for PSARC-ext@Sun.COM; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 15:59:06 +0000 (Z) Received: from cpc1-cdif1-0-0-cust63.cdif.cable.ntl.com ([81.104.164.64] helo=shrike.submonkey.net) by scuttle.submonkey.net with esmtpsa (TLSv1:DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1LARSq-0004sO-OA; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 15:59:05 +0000 Received: from ceri by shrike.submonkey.net with local (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1LARSo-0008za-P1; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 15:59:02 +0000 Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 15:59:02 +0000 From: Ceri Davies Subject: Re: mailwrapper (PSARC/2008/759) In-reply-to: <18751.56393.430303.879246@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Sender: Ceri Davies To: James Carlson Cc: Danek Duvall , PSARC-ext@sun.com, John Plocher Message-id: <20081210155902.GF20674@submonkey.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary=VdOwlNaOFKGAtAAV Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== X-PGP: finger ceri@FreeBSD.org X-Antispam: No, score=-0.2/5.0, scanned in 0.088sec at (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smf-spamd v1.3.1 - http://smfs.sf.net/ References: <200812100003.mBA03JHr010849@opal.eng.sun.com> <20081210001111.GD7263@mumak.SFBay.Sun.COM> <20081210002741.GF7263@mumak.SFBay.Sun.COM> <20081210100846.GB20674@submonkey.net> <18751.56393.430303.879246@gargle.gargle.HOWL> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Status: RO Content-Length: 3696 --VdOwlNaOFKGAtAAV Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 10:12:09AM -0500, James Carlson wrote: > Ceri Davies writes: > > On Tue, Dec 09, 2008 at 04:27:41PM -0800, Danek Duvall wrote: > > > The whole point is that just about every program which doesn't build = in its > > > own mail transmission code calls /usr/lib/sendmail with a standard se= t of > > > options. Given that, you can put a glorified commandline processor at > > > /usr/lib/sendmail (or /usr/sbin/sendmail, whatev) which then forks of= f the > > > appropriate / configured "real" MTA. > >=20 > > That's exactly what this case proposes. I've preserved > > /usr/sbin/sendmail because I don't really know what it's doing there. > > I don't want to call the mailwrapper binary /usr/sbin/sendmail because > > it would probably end up being removed by anyone trying to replace > > sendmail. >=20 > I don't think we need to try to code around people who deliberately > damage their systems. Especially so when the attempt here is > unsuccessful -- if someone does munge /usr/lib/sendmail, the new > "mailwrapper" won't be referenced at all because existing programs use > the /usr/lib/sendmail path explicitly, so having the mailwrapper bits > rotating around on the disk unused won't actually fix anything. >=20 > A big +1 for delivering a wrapper in place of /usr/lib/sendmail, but > not for the introduction of a new /usr/sbin/mailwrapper binary -- it > seems exceedingly unlikely that anybody would ever use that new > pathname, so it'd serve no purpose. >=20 > I _think_ your idea here was to allow for a way to people to "fix" > their systems after having damaged them. But such a way already > exists -- just reinstall the package. We even include packaging tools > to detect when packaged bits are damaged in the first place. We don't > need to squirrel away binaries in unused areas "in case" someone needs > to recover them. Hmm, no, that's not what I was trying to do. I'm trying to avoid anyone having a WTF? moment when they find yet another pathname for sendmail in /usr/lib that it looks like they'll have to do something with. I'm specifically trying to make it easy to swap out sendmail, and I think that for anyone unaware of mailwrapper's presence that ls output such as the following: lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 21 Nov 25 13:44 /usr/bin/mailq -> ../sbin/mailwra= pper lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 21 Nov 25 13:44 /usr/sbin/newaliases -> mailwrapp= er lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 21 Nov 25 13:44 /usr/sbin/sendmail -> mailwrapper lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 21 Nov 25 13:44 /usr/lib/sendmail -> ../sbin/mail= wrapper -r-xr-xr-x 1 root mail 12396 Nov 25 13:44 /usr/sbin/mailwrapper is more instructive and self-descriptive than: lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 21 Nov 25 13:44 /usr/bin/mailq -> /usr/lib/sendma= il lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 21 Nov 25 13:44 /usr/bin/newaliases -> /usr/lib/s= endmail lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 21 Nov 25 13:44 /usr/sbin/sendmail -> /usr/lib/se= ndmail -r-xr-xr-x 1 root mail 12396 Nov 25 13:44 /usr/lib/sendmail The second gives no clue as to what is going on, while the first should at least get folk thinking about firing up a manual for mailwrapper. Ceri --=20 That must be wonderful! I don't understand it at all. -- Moliere --VdOwlNaOFKGAtAAV Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFJP+dGocfcwTS3JF8RAv1TAKCJc3u7LtBE+yyYgFBFkoaj2/cm0gCgtGJo Z+8+q5MhDLLxPDDWY765mY0= =WNkq -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --VdOwlNaOFKGAtAAV-- From Danek.Duvall@sun.com Wed Dec 10 08:07:48 2008 Received: from newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (newsunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.245]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id mBAG7llA029018 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 08:07:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id mBAG7kSA056190 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-ext@sun.com>; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 09:07:47 -0700 (MST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0KBO00M0Z4SWSA00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Wed, 10 Dec 2008 08:07:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from dm-sfbay-02.sfbay.sun.com ([129.146.11.31]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0KBO00BBD4SV9V80@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Wed, 10 Dec 2008 08:07:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from mumak.SFBay.Sun.COM (mumak.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.229.4]) by dm-sfbay-02.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id mBAG7fDO050890; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 08:07:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from mumak.SFBay.Sun.COM (mumak [127.0.0.1]) by mumak.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.14.3+Sun/8.14.3) with ESMTP id mBAG9FJc001788; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 08:09:15 -0800 (PST) Received: (from dduvall@localhost) by mumak.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.14.3+Sun/8.14.3/Submit) id mBAG9Fhk001787; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 08:09:15 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 08:09:15 -0800 From: Danek Duvall Subject: Re: mailwrapper (PSARC/2008/759) In-reply-to: <20081210100258.GA20674@submonkey.net> To: Ceri Davies Cc: Darren Reed , John Beck , PSARC-ext@sun.com Message-id: <20081210160915.GH7263@mumak.SFBay.Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <200812100003.mBA03JHr010849@opal.eng.sun.com> <493F0D20.109@Sun.COM> <20081210100258.GA20674@submonkey.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.16 (2007-06-27) Status: RO Content-Length: 991 On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 10:02:58AM +0000, Ceri Davies wrote: > On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 11:28:16AM +1100, Darren Reed wrote: > > John, > > > > What's the plan for mailx(1) use of of mailwrapper? > > Is it intended for mailx(1) to remain as a frontend to sendmail > > (only) or will it also use mailwrapper(1M)? > > > > If it's going to use mailwrapper(1M), then this case looks > > a bit incomplete as mailx(1) seems to suggest a few bits > > of its functionality are tied to sendmail... > > General usage is covered by an entry for "mail" in mailer.conf. > > The "conv" functionality, while alluding to a (undocumented) -U option to > sendmail(1M), is implemented internally to mailx(1). > > I can see -h, -m/metoo and possibly -v/verbose being an issue if a user > decides to switch out sendmail; would warnings in the manuals cover > this? How much argument parsing does mailwrapper do, and how much does it pass through to the real MTA? Does it drop anything on the floor? Danek From Danek.Duvall@sun.com Wed Dec 10 08:10:03 2008 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id mBAGA2vl017276 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 08:10:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id mBAG9x3S028040 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-ext@sun.com>; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 16:10:01 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0KBO0040J4WNUH00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Wed, 10 Dec 2008 09:09:59 -0700 (MST) Received: from dm-sfbay-01.sfbay.sun.com ([129.145.155.118]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0KBO00FKB4WM7VB0@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Wed, 10 Dec 2008 09:09:58 -0700 (MST) Received: from mumak.SFBay.Sun.COM (mumak.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.229.4]) by dm-sfbay-01.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id mBAG9vtf027062; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 08:09:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from mumak.SFBay.Sun.COM (mumak [127.0.0.1]) by mumak.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.14.3+Sun/8.14.3) with ESMTP id mBAGBVeI001803; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 08:11:31 -0800 (PST) Received: (from dduvall@localhost) by mumak.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.14.3+Sun/8.14.3/Submit) id mBAGBVjP001802; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 08:11:31 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 08:11:31 -0800 From: Danek Duvall Subject: Re: mailwrapper (PSARC/2008/759) In-reply-to: <20081210155902.GF20674@submonkey.net> To: Ceri Davies Cc: James Carlson , PSARC-ext@sun.com, John Plocher Message-id: <20081210161131.GI7263@mumak.SFBay.Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <200812100003.mBA03JHr010849@opal.eng.sun.com> <20081210001111.GD7263@mumak.SFBay.Sun.COM> <20081210002741.GF7263@mumak.SFBay.Sun.COM> <20081210100846.GB20674@submonkey.net> <18751.56393.430303.879246@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20081210155902.GF20674@submonkey.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.16 (2007-06-27) Status: RO Content-Length: 1563 On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 03:59:02PM +0000, Ceri Davies wrote: > I'm specifically trying to make it easy to swap out sendmail, and I > think that for anyone unaware of mailwrapper's presence that ls output such > as the following: > > lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 21 Nov 25 13:44 /usr/bin/mailq -> ../sbin/mailwrapper > lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 21 Nov 25 13:44 /usr/sbin/newaliases -> mailwrapper > lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 21 Nov 25 13:44 /usr/sbin/sendmail -> mailwrapper > lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 21 Nov 25 13:44 /usr/lib/sendmail -> ../sbin/mailwrapper > -r-xr-xr-x 1 root mail 12396 Nov 25 13:44 /usr/sbin/mailwrapper > > is more instructive and self-descriptive than: > > lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 21 Nov 25 13:44 /usr/bin/mailq -> /usr/lib/sendmail > lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 21 Nov 25 13:44 /usr/bin/newaliases -> /usr/lib/sendmail > lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 21 Nov 25 13:44 /usr/sbin/sendmail -> /usr/lib/sendmail > -r-xr-xr-x 1 root mail 12396 Nov 25 13:44 /usr/lib/sendmail > > The second gives no clue as to what is going on, while the first should > at least get folk thinking about firing up a manual for mailwrapper. I'm okay with this -- I think it's a useful visual clue, and was one answer I thought you might bring up when I asked the question. However, if there's no reason to run mailwrapper directly, do please put it in /usr/lib. sendmail is in /usr/sbin because it is in fact useful from the commandline (indeed, one could probably make the argument it should be in /usr/bin, but that's a whole 'nother can of worms). Danek From ceri@submonkey.net Wed Dec 10 08:25:32 2008 Received: from newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (newsunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.245]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id mBAGPWnD013364 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 08:25:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id mBAGPIdF007660 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-ext@sun.com>; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 09:25:31 -0700 (MST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0KBO00F0T5MIW000@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Wed, 10 Dec 2008 08:25:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from sca-ea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.43.24]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0KBO00D9S5MGDL40@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Wed, 10 Dec 2008 08:25:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay44i.sun.com ([192.5.209.118]) by sca-ea-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id mBAGPRbl023569 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 16:25:28 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mms48es.mms.us.syntegra.com ([160.41.221.230] [160.41.221.230]) by relay44i.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-612983 for PSARC-ext@sun.com; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 16:25:27 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay41i.sun.com (relay41i.sun.com [192.5.209.70]) by mms48es.mms.us.syntegra.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-13401099 for PSARC-ext@sun.com; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 16:25:27 +0000 (Z) Received: from scuttle.submonkey.net ([208.111.43.184] [208.111.43.184]) by relay4i.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-6726376 for PSARC-ext@sun.com; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 16:25:27 +0000 (Z) Received: from cpc1-cdif1-0-0-cust63.cdif.cable.ntl.com ([81.104.164.64] helo=shrike.submonkey.net) by scuttle.submonkey.net with esmtpsa (TLSv1:DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1LARsL-0005qY-Lc; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 16:25:25 +0000 Received: from ceri by shrike.submonkey.net with local (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1LARsJ-000Kme-IE; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 16:25:23 +0000 Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 16:25:23 +0000 From: Ceri Davies Subject: Re: mailwrapper (PSARC/2008/759) In-reply-to: <20081210161131.GI7263@mumak.SFBay.Sun.COM> Sender: Ceri Davies To: Danek Duvall Cc: James Carlson , PSARC-ext@sun.com, John Plocher Message-id: <20081210162523.GH20674@submonkey.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary=Y+xroYBkGM9OatJL Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== X-PGP: finger ceri@FreeBSD.org X-Antispam: No, score=0.0/5.0, scanned in 0.071sec at (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smf-spamd v1.3.1 - http://smfs.sf.net/ References: <200812100003.mBA03JHr010849@opal.eng.sun.com> <20081210001111.GD7263@mumak.SFBay.Sun.COM> <20081210002741.GF7263@mumak.SFBay.Sun.COM> <20081210100846.GB20674@submonkey.net> <18751.56393.430303.879246@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20081210155902.GF20674@submonkey.net> <20081210161131.GI7263@mumak.SFBay.Sun.COM> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Status: RO Content-Length: 2348 --Y+xroYBkGM9OatJL Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 08:11:31AM -0800, Danek Duvall wrote: > On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 03:59:02PM +0000, Ceri Davies wrote: >=20 > > I'm specifically trying to make it easy to swap out sendmail, and I > > think that for anyone unaware of mailwrapper's presence that ls output = such > > as the following: > >=20 > > lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 21 Nov 25 13:44 /usr/bin/mailq -> ../sbin/mai= lwrapper > > lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 21 Nov 25 13:44 /usr/sbin/newaliases -> mailw= rapper > > lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 21 Nov 25 13:44 /usr/sbin/sendmail -> mailwra= pper > > lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 21 Nov 25 13:44 /usr/lib/sendmail -> ../sbin/= mailwrapper > > -r-xr-xr-x 1 root mail 12396 Nov 25 13:44 /usr/sbin/mailwrapper > >=20 > > is more instructive and self-descriptive than: > >=20 > > lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 21 Nov 25 13:44 /usr/bin/mailq -> /usr/lib/se= ndmail > > lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 21 Nov 25 13:44 /usr/bin/newaliases -> /usr/l= ib/sendmail > > lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 21 Nov 25 13:44 /usr/sbin/sendmail -> /usr/li= b/sendmail > > -r-xr-xr-x 1 root mail 12396 Nov 25 13:44 /usr/lib/sendmail > >=20 > > The second gives no clue as to what is going on, while the first should > > at least get folk thinking about firing up a manual for mailwrapper. >=20 > I'm okay with this -- I think it's a useful visual clue, and was one answ= er > I thought you might bring up when I asked the question. >=20 > However, if there's no reason to run mailwrapper directly, do please put = it > in /usr/lib. sendmail is in /usr/sbin because it is in fact useful from > the commandline (indeed, one could probably make the argument it should be > in /usr/bin, but that's a whole 'nother can of worms). OK, will move the mailwrapper binary to /usr/lib if consensus rests there. Ceri --=20 That must be wonderful! I don't understand it at all. -- Moliere --Y+xroYBkGM9OatJL Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFJP+1zocfcwTS3JF8RAnHrAKC9dBBOVBrrPvn3/iUsGmBMe9h23QCfXYTb /wGyBXj201fhLxaSuFWgGXQ= =CEEH -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Y+xroYBkGM9OatJL-- From ceri@submonkey.net Wed Dec 10 08:25:40 2008 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id mBAGPdCE013381 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 08:25:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id mBAGPNcP011451 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-ext@sun.com>; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 16:25:38 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0KBO006275MOEE00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Wed, 10 Dec 2008 09:25:36 -0700 (MST) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.98.43]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0KBO00FIT5MK7OC0@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Wed, 10 Dec 2008 09:25:32 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay13i.sun.com (ip123.net129179-4.block1.us.syntegra.com [129.179.4.123]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id mBAGH2sb005973 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 16:25:32 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mmp11es.mmp.us.syntegra.com ([160.41.208.11] [160.41.208.11]) by relay13i.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-326400 for PSARC-ext@sun.com; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 16:24:01 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay14i.sun.com (relay14i.sun.com [129.179.4.124]) by mmp11es.mmp.us.syntegra.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-18125838; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 16:24:00 +0000 (Z) Received: from scuttle.submonkey.net ([208.111.43.184] [208.111.43.184]) by relay1i.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-3109461; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 16:24:00 +0000 (Z) Received: from cpc1-cdif1-0-0-cust63.cdif.cable.ntl.com ([81.104.164.64] helo=shrike.submonkey.net) by scuttle.submonkey.net with esmtpsa (TLSv1:DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1LARqx-0005ov-K1; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 16:23:59 +0000 Received: from ceri by shrike.submonkey.net with local (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1LARqv-0003Sr-Qo; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 16:23:57 +0000 Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 16:23:57 +0000 From: Ceri Davies Subject: Re: mailwrapper (PSARC/2008/759) In-reply-to: <20081210160915.GH7263@mumak.SFBay.Sun.COM> Sender: Ceri Davies To: Danek Duvall Cc: Darren Reed , John Beck , PSARC-ext@sun.com Message-id: <20081210162357.GG20674@submonkey.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary=Y1L3PTX8QE8cb2T+ Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== X-PGP: finger ceri@FreeBSD.org X-Antispam: No, score=0.0/5.0, scanned in 0.234sec at (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smf-spamd v1.3.1 - http://smfs.sf.net/ References: <200812100003.mBA03JHr010849@opal.eng.sun.com> <493F0D20.109@Sun.COM> <20081210100258.GA20674@submonkey.net> <20081210160915.GH7263@mumak.SFBay.Sun.COM> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Status: RO Content-Length: 2475 --Y1L3PTX8QE8cb2T+ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 08:09:15AM -0800, Danek Duvall wrote: > On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 10:02:58AM +0000, Ceri Davies wrote: >=20 > > On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 11:28:16AM +1100, Darren Reed wrote: > > > John, > > >=20 > > > What's the plan for mailx(1) use of of mailwrapper? > > > Is it intended for mailx(1) to remain as a frontend to sendmail > > > (only) or will it also use mailwrapper(1M)? > > >=20 > > > If it's going to use mailwrapper(1M), then this case looks > > > a bit incomplete as mailx(1) seems to suggest a few bits > > > of its functionality are tied to sendmail... > >=20 > > General usage is covered by an entry for "mail" in mailer.conf. > >=20 > > The "conv" functionality, while alluding to a (undocumented) -U option = to > > sendmail(1M), is implemented internally to mailx(1). > >=20 > > I can see -h, -m/metoo and possibly -v/verbose being an issue if a user > > decides to switch out sendmail; would warnings in the manuals cover > > this? Not much consolation to the readers of this list, I suppose, but FreeBSD's mailx has allowed metoo and verbose since forever and I don't see a single issue having been reported in the (a few days short of) nine years that mailwrapper has been in place there. > How much argument parsing does mailwrapper do, and how much does it pass > through to the real MTA? Does it drop anything on the floor? It does no parsing whatsoever. It looks in the config file for an entry matching argv[0] and re-execs with the same arguments, so everything goes straight through; it's really down to the admin to make sure that their replacement MTA has the functionality that they need. I've tried not to break anything with the defaults. Additionally, it's possible to add arguments via the config file; for example you can have a mailq entry of "/opt/exim/sbin/exim -bp" (although exim does the right thing when invoked as mailq anyway, just an example!). Ceri --=20 That must be wonderful! I don't understand it at all. -- Moliere --Y1L3PTX8QE8cb2T+ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFJP+0docfcwTS3JF8RAjsXAKCaQ4TVoOPYNgOLE5GW820caHplkACgwuqW zhTb/w8GRJ1BeqM/RGPKENg= =O+N0 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Y1L3PTX8QE8cb2T+-- From carlsonj@phorcys.east.sun.com Wed Dec 10 08:26:12 2008 Received: from newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (newsunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.245]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id mBAGQBre013398 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 08:26:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id mBAGQ72k008172; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 09:26:11 -0700 (MST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0KBO0062R5NMF400@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 09:26:10 -0700 (MST) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com ([129.148.174.143]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0KBO00FBH5NB7NB0@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 09:25:59 -0700 (MST) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.3+Sun/8.14.3) with ESMTP id mBAGAxxp014797; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 11:10:59 -0500 (EST) Received: (from carlsonj@localhost) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.3+Sun/8.14.3/Submit) id mBAGAx42014794; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 11:10:59 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 11:10:59 -0500 From: James Carlson Subject: Re: mailwrapper (PSARC/2008/759) In-reply-to: <20081210155902.GF20674@submonkey.net> To: Ceri Davies Cc: Danek Duvall , PSARC-ext@sun.com, John Plocher Message-id: <18751.59923.261757.282966@gargle.gargle.HOWL> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: VM 7.01 under Emacs 21.3.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <200812100003.mBA03JHr010849@opal.eng.sun.com> <20081210001111.GD7263@mumak.SFBay.Sun.COM> <20081210002741.GF7263@mumak.SFBay.Sun.COM> <20081210100846.GB20674@submonkey.net> <18751.56393.430303.879246@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20081210155902.GF20674@submonkey.net> Status: RO Content-Length: 2004 Ceri Davies writes: > Hmm, no, that's not what I was trying to do. I'm trying to avoid anyone > having a WTF? moment when they find yet another pathname for sendmail in > /usr/lib that it looks like they'll have to do something with. I think WTF moments are best handled with decent documentation. > I'm specifically trying to make it easy to swap out sendmail, and I > think that for anyone unaware of mailwrapper's presence that ls output such > as the following: > > lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 21 Nov 25 13:44 /usr/bin/mailq -> ../sbin/mailwrapper I think the existing hard links function just fine. As an architectural matter, I don't think that the readlink() contents of symlinks in /usr/bin should be considered to be "documentation" for the system. I understand what you're saying, and that it's an intentional kick in the seat to the admin, but I don't think that's the right way to do this. Why not just make it "../sbin/please-read-the-danged-man-page-already"? > The second gives no clue as to what is going on, while the first should > at least get folk thinking about firing up a manual for mailwrapper. I don't think this is the right way to do it. Update man pages, add new content to docs.sun.com, blog about it, post on netnews, paint skyscrapers, do whatever you want in the way of communication to let folks know about the "right" way to do things. To make it even more obvious, put /usr/lib/sendmail (the wrapper) into a separate package from the actual sendmail delivery. The wrapper could go in SUNWcsu, for instance. But I don't think it's necessary to encode documentation into the symlinks. Even if users do ignore the new documentation, little is lost: those users get exactly what they want, almost as if they'd used the system properly. -- James Carlson, Solaris Networking Sun Microsystems / 35 Network Drive 71.232W Vox +1 781 442 2084 MS UBUR02-212 / Burlington MA 01803-2757 42.496N Fax +1 781 442 1677 From ceri@submonkey.net Wed Dec 10 12:03:29 2008 Received: from sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id mBAK3SpJ019656 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 12:03:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id mBAK3PYT029969 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-ext@sun.com>; Thu, 11 Dec 2008 04:03:27 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0KBO0041FFPPOI00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@Sun.COM); Wed, 10 Dec 2008 12:03:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.98.43]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0KBO00MEIFPO9K70@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@Sun.COM); Wed, 10 Dec 2008 12:03:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay44i.sun.com ([192.5.209.118]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id mBAK3Nae027994 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 20:03:23 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mms49es.mms.us.syntegra.com ([160.41.221.232] [160.41.221.232]) by relay44i.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-621153 for PSARC-ext@Sun.COM; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 20:03:23 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay44i.sun.com (relay44i.sun.com [192.5.209.118]) by mms49es.mms.us.syntegra.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-13571274 for PSARC-ext@Sun.COM; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 20:03:22 +0000 (Z) Received: from scuttle.submonkey.net ([208.111.43.184] [208.111.43.184]) by relay4i.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-6810778 for PSARC-ext@Sun.COM; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 20:03:22 +0000 (Z) Received: from cpc1-cdif1-0-0-cust63.cdif.cable.ntl.com ([81.104.164.64] helo=shrike.submonkey.net) by scuttle.submonkey.net with esmtpsa (TLSv1:DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1LAVHE-0005te-W1; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 20:03:21 +0000 Received: from ceri by shrike.submonkey.net with local (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1LAVHC-000BPV-Ol; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 20:03:18 +0000 Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 20:03:18 +0000 From: Ceri Davies Subject: Re: mailwrapper (PSARC/2008/759) In-reply-to: <18751.59923.261757.282966@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Sender: Ceri Davies To: James Carlson Cc: Danek Duvall , PSARC-ext@sun.com, John Plocher Message-id: <20081210200318.GK20674@submonkey.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary=fKov5AqTsvseSZ0Z Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== X-PGP: finger ceri@FreeBSD.org X-Antispam: No, score=0.0/5.0, scanned in 0.276sec at (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smf-spamd v1.3.1 - http://smfs.sf.net/ References: <200812100003.mBA03JHr010849@opal.eng.sun.com> <20081210001111.GD7263@mumak.SFBay.Sun.COM> <20081210002741.GF7263@mumak.SFBay.Sun.COM> <20081210100846.GB20674@submonkey.net> <18751.56393.430303.879246@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20081210155902.GF20674@submonkey.net> <18751.59923.261757.282966@gargle.gargle.HOWL> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Status: RO Content-Length: 1908 --fKov5AqTsvseSZ0Z Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 11:10:59AM -0500, James Carlson wrote: > Ceri Davies writes: > > Hmm, no, that's not what I was trying to do. I'm trying to avoid anyone > > having a WTF? moment when they find yet another pathname for sendmail in > > /usr/lib that it looks like they'll have to do something with. >=20 > I think WTF moments are best handled with decent documentation. No argument there. > > I'm specifically trying to make it easy to swap out sendmail, and I > > think that for anyone unaware of mailwrapper's presence that ls output = such > > as the following: > >=20 > > lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 21 Nov 25 13:44 /usr/bin/mailq -> ../sbin/mai= lwrapper >=20 > I think the existing hard links function just fine. Hard links can't really be used as people aren't supposed to install their own stuff into /usr, apparently. > As an architectural matter, I don't think that the readlink() contents > of symlinks in /usr/bin should be considered to be "documentation" for > the system. I understand what you're saying, and that it's an > intentional kick in the seat to the admin, but I don't think that's > the right way to do this. You're probably right. If there are no objections, I can install the mailwrapper binary at /usr/lib/sendmail. What does that mean for the manpages, specifically wrt section numbers for mailwrapper? Ceri --=20 That must be wonderful! I don't understand it at all. -- Moliere --fKov5AqTsvseSZ0Z Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFJQCCGocfcwTS3JF8RAnRFAJ9dZcup9NBSi2VhYcJE4qaOnPoD+ACfWnqo W+1vDWlsAIkyJV7ZnrkmSkI= =HPJa -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --fKov5AqTsvseSZ0Z-- From ceri@submonkey.net Wed Dec 10 12:16:59 2008 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id mBAKGxse007557 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 12:16:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id mBAKGvbJ002716; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 12:16:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0KBO0051DGC9DV00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 12:16:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com ([192.18.98.36]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0KBO00MC7GC89I80@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 12:16:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay41i.sun.com ([192.5.209.70]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id mBAKE0mv024866; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 20:16:55 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mms49es.mms.us.syntegra.com ([160.41.221.232] [160.41.221.232]) by relay41i.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-621660; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 20:16:55 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay44i.sun.com (relay44i.sun.com [192.5.209.118]) by mms49es.mms.us.syntegra.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-13586656; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 20:16:55 +0000 (Z) Received: from scuttle.submonkey.net ([208.111.43.184] [208.111.43.184]) by relay4i.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-6818558; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 20:16:55 +0000 (Z) Received: from cpc1-cdif1-0-0-cust63.cdif.cable.ntl.com ([81.104.164.64] helo=shrike.submonkey.net) by scuttle.submonkey.net with esmtpsa (TLSv1:DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1LAVUM-0006Fl-3b; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 20:16:54 +0000 Received: from ceri by shrike.submonkey.net with local (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1LAVUK-000AKK-75; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 20:16:52 +0000 Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 20:16:52 +0000 From: Ceri Davies Subject: Re: mailwrapper (PSARC/2008/759) In-reply-to: <20081210200318.GK20674@submonkey.net> Sender: Ceri Davies To: James Carlson Cc: PSARC-ext@sun.com, Danek Duvall , John Plocher Message-id: <20081210201652.GL20674@submonkey.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="PEfPc/DjvCj+JzNg" Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== X-PGP: finger ceri@FreeBSD.org X-Antispam: No, score=0.0/5.0, scanned in 0.259sec at (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smf-spamd v1.3.1 - http://smfs.sf.net/ References: <200812100003.mBA03JHr010849@opal.eng.sun.com> <20081210001111.GD7263@mumak.SFBay.Sun.COM> <20081210002741.GF7263@mumak.SFBay.Sun.COM> <20081210100846.GB20674@submonkey.net> <18751.56393.430303.879246@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20081210155902.GF20674@submonkey.net> <18751.59923.261757.282966@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20081210200318.GK20674@submonkey.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Status: RO Content-Length: 1444 --PEfPc/DjvCj+JzNg Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 08:03:18PM +0000, Ceri Davies wrote: > On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 11:10:59AM -0500, James Carlson wrote: > > Ceri Davies writes: >=20 > > > I'm specifically trying to make it easy to swap out sendmail, and I > > > think that for anyone unaware of mailwrapper's presence that ls outpu= t such > > > as the following: > > >=20 > > > lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 21 Nov 25 13:44 /usr/bin/mailq -> ../sbin/m= ailwrapper > >=20 > > I think the existing hard links function just fine. >=20 > Hard links can't really be used as people aren't supposed to install > their own stuff into /usr, apparently. Sorry, I was thinking of something else entirely (not even this OS) there. However, it might be worth noting that mailwrapper is actually a completely generic wrapper and I have therefore avoided the "getexecname only works with hard links" problem by not using it. Ceri --=20 That must be wonderful! I don't understand it at all. -- Moliere --PEfPc/DjvCj+JzNg Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFJQCO0ocfcwTS3JF8RAiwrAKC4EOrLVMnI077i1CfZ5JAs5J5msACeLUIF 6rF/6KnpaHhIXwij3u8Up4U= =8Ari -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --PEfPc/DjvCj+JzNg-- From Nicolas.Williams@Sun.COM Wed Dec 10 12:29:01 2008 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id mBAKT0Ob007911 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 12:29:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id mBAKSYtI017947; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 20:28:56 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0KBO00603GW62A00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 12:28:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM ([129.153.128.104]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0KBO00MKVGW59L90@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 12:28:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.14.3+Sun/8.14.3) with ESMTP id mBAKD0E2006109; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 14:13:00 -0600 (CST) Received: (from nw141292@localhost) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.14.3+Sun/8.14.3/Submit) id mBAKCweQ006108; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 14:12:58 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 14:12:58 -0600 From: Nicolas Williams Subject: Re: mailwrapper (PSARC/2008/759) In-reply-to: <20081210200318.GK20674@submonkey.net> To: Ceri Davies Cc: James Carlson , Danek Duvall , PSARC-ext@Sun.COM, John Plocher Message-id: <20081210201257.GC2463@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <200812100003.mBA03JHr010849@opal.eng.sun.com> <20081210001111.GD7263@mumak.SFBay.Sun.COM> <20081210002741.GF7263@mumak.SFBay.Sun.COM> <20081210100846.GB20674@submonkey.net> <18751.56393.430303.879246@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20081210155902.GF20674@submonkey.net> <18751.59923.261757.282966@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20081210200318.GK20674@submonkey.net> X-Authentication-warning: binky.Central.Sun.COM: nw141292 set sender to Nicolas.Williams@sun.com using -f User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.7i Status: RO Content-Length: 1342 On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 08:03:18PM +0000, Ceri Davies wrote: > On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 11:10:59AM -0500, James Carlson wrote: > > As an architectural matter, I don't think that the readlink() contents > > of symlinks in /usr/bin should be considered to be "documentation" for > > the system. I understand what you're saying, and that it's an > > intentional kick in the seat to the admin, but I don't think that's > > the right way to do this. I guess that depends on whether you think users are likely to do "ls -l /usr/lib/sendmail" -- I do, but that may be because I do that sort of thing often. > You're probably right. If there are no objections, I can install the > mailwrapper binary at /usr/lib/sendmail. I think that makes zero difference from a getting-the-docs-right point of view, but having /usr/lib/sendmail as a symlink to mailwrapper sure does make a difference: it gives those users who would do "ls -l /usr/lib/sendmail" a mega-clue as to what manpage to read. Other users are in no different a position than if the symlink had been the other way around. > What does that mean for the manpages, specifically wrt section numbers > for mailwrapper? sendmail is in 1M, but I think something like this should be in section 1, since mailwrapper is not really and administrative tool, at least not when used to send mail. From carlsonj@phorcys.east.sun.com Wed Dec 10 12:32:40 2008 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id mBAKWeGJ007965 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 12:32:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id mBAKWaOD028177; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 12:32:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0KBO00635H2G9100@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 12:32:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com ([129.148.174.143]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0KBO00MUVH2E9L90@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 12:32:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.3+Sun/8.14.3) with ESMTP id mBAKHcbS021000; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 15:17:38 -0500 (EST) Received: (from carlsonj@localhost) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.3+Sun/8.14.3/Submit) id mBAKHbFR020997; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 15:17:37 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 15:17:37 -0500 From: James Carlson Subject: Re: mailwrapper (PSARC/2008/759) In-reply-to: <20081210200318.GK20674@submonkey.net> To: Ceri Davies Cc: Danek Duvall , PSARC-ext@sun.com, John Plocher Message-id: <18752.9185.829971.526032@gargle.gargle.HOWL> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: VM 7.01 under Emacs 21.3.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <200812100003.mBA03JHr010849@opal.eng.sun.com> <20081210001111.GD7263@mumak.SFBay.Sun.COM> <20081210002741.GF7263@mumak.SFBay.Sun.COM> <20081210100846.GB20674@submonkey.net> <18751.56393.430303.879246@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20081210155902.GF20674@submonkey.net> <18751.59923.261757.282966@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20081210200318.GK20674@submonkey.net> Status: RO Content-Length: 2059 Ceri Davies writes: > On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 11:10:59AM -0500, James Carlson wrote: > > > I'm specifically trying to make it easy to swap out sendmail, and I > > > think that for anyone unaware of mailwrapper's presence that ls output such > > > as the following: > > > > > > lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 21 Nov 25 13:44 /usr/bin/mailq -> ../sbin/mailwrapper > > > > I think the existing hard links function just fine. > > Hard links can't really be used as people aren't supposed to install > their own stuff into /usr, apparently. Correct, they're not. (They often do, but as long as they don't tromp all over the documented filesystem(5) interfaces, and are just doing things like /usr/local, there's no problem.) > > As an architectural matter, I don't think that the readlink() contents > > of symlinks in /usr/bin should be considered to be "documentation" for > > the system. I understand what you're saying, and that it's an > > intentional kick in the seat to the admin, but I don't think that's > > the right way to do this. > > You're probably right. If there are no objections, I can install the > mailwrapper binary at /usr/lib/sendmail. > > What does that mean for the manpages, specifically wrt section numbers > for mailwrapper? I would do something like this: - move the existing sendmail(1M) to sendmail-mta(1M) or sendmail(1MTA) (or whatever's most appropriate for the places where the MTAs will be hidden). - create a new sendmail(1M) (with a man page link as mailwrapper(1M)) that describes the wrapper interface and points to the places where the per-MTA descriptions can be found. Leaving the existing sendmail(1M) in place (which documents "the" /usr/lib/sendmail), but changing /usr/lib/sendmail to be a symlink off in some other direction sounds like a confusing result to me. -- James Carlson, Solaris Networking Sun Microsystems / 35 Network Drive 71.232W Vox +1 781 442 2084 MS UBUR02-212 / Burlington MA 01803-2757 42.496N Fax +1 781 442 1677 From john.plocher@gmail.com Wed Dec 10 12:48:59 2008 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id mBAKmwnS008228 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 12:48:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id mBAKmq4X001439; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 20:48:56 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0KBO00701HTH7S00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 12:48:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from sca-ea-mail-3.sun.com ([192.18.43.21]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0KBO00MRDHTH9N70@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 12:48:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay13i.sun.com (ip123.net129179-4.block1.us.syntegra.com [129.179.4.123]) by sca-ea-mail-3.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id mBAKgOX4006425; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 20:48:52 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mmp13es.mmp.us.syntegra.com ([160.41.208.13] [160.41.208.13]) by relay13i.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-348937; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 20:48:52 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay13i.sun.com (relay13i.sun.com [129.179.4.123]) by mmp13es.mmp.us.syntegra.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-370484; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 20:48:52 +0000 (Z) Received: from yw-out-1718.google.com ([74.125.46.156] [74.125.46.156]) by relay1ib.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-5102666; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 20:48:52 +0000 (Z) Received: by yw-out-1718.google.com with SMTP id 9so338893ywk.68 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 12:48:50 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.90.73.16 with SMTP id v16mr1118490aga.104.1228942130763; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 12:48:50 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.90.31.7 with HTTP; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 12:48:50 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 12:48:50 -0800 From: John Plocher Subject: Re: mailwrapper (PSARC/2008/759) In-reply-to: <20081210200318.GK20674@submonkey.net> To: Ceri Davies Cc: James Carlson , Danek Duvall , PSARC-ext@sun.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to :subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=2MkFmW46ke8Cu9Qhcr6b7PYkSbHlOKt4kJEsHgMkw3U=; b=K9ZADtYxnEGX3+ppTvz/xuiqUSwg7iPpxcSg8SC1/yZkR66Ud5mlHyAKVJ6+RLoSq1 alZBlO8MMLEwscMNk7S5WtYHQUPovdNQd3emHpJ47RpdxKkyQJlZtm5Cy1owyDk3PVQo SQuP7AyStktvhkykKw50i6TXWNx2aSSJTiq/Q= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition :references; b=oLcaPd400K9k43ALo2QFI7bWWs8jQEQV/3Kqj2UuG00vXg/n62jND90JpO4WhNv2uY GsunSRxsUT5eitoOe/DXOYjkAJnurjYluqJ1o8Sd5nBFueg5TgjPP7qrwsFgkCcPa0Hl eekmUJOjxyG9WZhYTwkYBfd7Y+6xpRfcaKs3A= X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== X-Antispam: No, score=0.0/5.0, scanned in 0.121sec at (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smf-spamd v1.3.1 - http://smfs.sf.net/ References: <200812100003.mBA03JHr010849@opal.eng.sun.com> <20081210001111.GD7263@mumak.SFBay.Sun.COM> <20081210002741.GF7263@mumak.SFBay.Sun.COM> <20081210100846.GB20674@submonkey.net> <18751.56393.430303.879246@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20081210155902.GF20674@submonkey.net> <18751.59923.261757.282966@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20081210200318.GK20674@submonkey.net> Status: RO Content-Length: 936 > You're probably right. If there are no objections, I can install the > mailwrapper binary at /usr/lib/sendmail. > > What does that mean for the manpages, specifically wrt section numbers > for mailwrapper? Except... This thing *isn't* sendmail, it is a placeholder/proxy for the hardcoded exec() strings stuffed into other applications. What should the man pages say? This thing called sendmail isn't really sendmail, it is a proxy for the real sendmail, which now lives over ->there->? As it is now, the man page for mailwrapper does a pretty good job of describing things. Without the mailwrapper name (which is how the rest of the world identifies this feature), isn't this just asking for confusion - yet another place where OpenSolaris is arbitrarily different in a small way from the rest of the *nix world? doesn't "being the same as other places" trump "but we could have invent something better if we tried"? -John From kmcdonald@egenera.com Wed Dec 10 12:56:49 2008 Received: from newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (newsunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.245]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id mBAKumoa008650 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 12:56:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id mBAKuhkq046791; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 13:56:47 -0700 (MST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0KBO00705I6NMY00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 12:56:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com ([192.18.98.36]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0KBO00M9OI6M9N80@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 12:56:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay15i.sun.com (ip125.net129179-4.block1.us.syntegra.com [129.179.4.125]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id mBAKqZCU010787; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 20:56:45 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mmp13es.mmp.us.syntegra.com ([160.41.208.13] [160.41.208.13]) by relay15i.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-165833; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 20:56:45 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay14i.sun.com (relay14i.sun.com [129.179.4.124]) by mmp13es.mmp.us.syntegra.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-378785; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 20:56:45 +0000 (Z) Received: from webaccess.egenera.com ([63.139.209.15] [63.139.209.15]) by relay1i.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-3247860; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 20:56:45 +0000 (Z) Received: from [172.23.2.108] ([172.23.2.108]) by webaccess.egenera.com over TLS secured channel with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Wed, 10 Dec 2008 15:56:44 -0500 Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 15:56:58 -0500 From: Kyle McDonald Subject: Re: mailwrapper (PSARC/2008/759) In-reply-to: To: John Plocher Cc: Ceri Davies , PSARC-ext@sun.com, Danek Duvall Message-id: <49402D1A.1010104@Egenera.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== X-Antispam: No, score=0.0/5.0, scanned in 0.054sec at (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smf-spamd v1.3.1 - http://smfs.sf.net/ References: <200812100003.mBA03JHr010849@opal.eng.sun.com> <20081210001111.GD7263@mumak.SFBay.Sun.COM> <20081210002741.GF7263@mumak.SFBay.Sun.COM> <20081210100846.GB20674@submonkey.net> <18751.56393.430303.879246@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20081210155902.GF20674@submonkey.net> <18751.59923.261757.282966@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20081210200318.GK20674@submonkey.net> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.18 (Windows/20081105) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 10 Dec 2008 20:56:44.0087 (UTC) FILETIME=[CEE75470:01C95B09] Status: RO Content-Length: 1338 My 2 cents: Install with the 'mailwrapper' name, do the softlinks as suggested, *and* make man sendmail deliver the mailwrapper man page, etc., like Jim suggested. Unless I read things wrong that is... -Kyle John Plocher wrote: >> You're probably right. If there are no objections, I can install the >> mailwrapper binary at /usr/lib/sendmail. >> >> What does that mean for the manpages, specifically wrt section numbers >> for mailwrapper? >> > > Except... > > This thing *isn't* sendmail, it is a placeholder/proxy for the hardcoded > exec() strings stuffed into other applications. > > What should the man pages say? This thing called sendmail isn't really > sendmail, it is a proxy for the real sendmail, which now lives over ->there->? > As it is now, the man page for mailwrapper does a pretty good job of > describing things. > > Without the mailwrapper name (which is how the rest of the world identifies > this feature), isn't this just asking for confusion - yet another place where > OpenSolaris is arbitrarily different in a small way from the rest of the *nix > world? doesn't "being the same as other places" trump "but we could have > invent something better if we tried"? > > -John > _______________________________________________ > opensolaris-arc mailing list > opensolaris-arc@opensolaris.org > From carlsonj@phorcys.east.sun.com Wed Dec 10 13:04:41 2008 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id mBAL4eOO008863 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 13:04:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id mBAL4ViC010280; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 21:04:37 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0KBO00C01IJOI800@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 13:04:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com ([129.148.174.143]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0KBO00AXHIJM7L10@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 13:04:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.3+Sun/8.14.3) with ESMTP id mBAKnZhE021234; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 15:49:35 -0500 (EST) Received: (from carlsonj@localhost) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.3+Sun/8.14.3/Submit) id mBAKnYtL021231; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 15:49:34 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 15:49:34 -0500 From: James Carlson Subject: Re: mailwrapper (PSARC/2008/759) In-reply-to: <20081210201257.GC2463@Sun.COM> To: Nicolas Williams Cc: Ceri Davies , Danek Duvall , PSARC-ext@sun.com, John Plocher Message-id: <18752.11102.687823.301641@gargle.gargle.HOWL> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: VM 7.01 under Emacs 21.3.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <200812100003.mBA03JHr010849@opal.eng.sun.com> <20081210001111.GD7263@mumak.SFBay.Sun.COM> <20081210002741.GF7263@mumak.SFBay.Sun.COM> <20081210100846.GB20674@submonkey.net> <18751.56393.430303.879246@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20081210155902.GF20674@submonkey.net> <18751.59923.261757.282966@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20081210200318.GK20674@submonkey.net> <20081210201257.GC2463@Sun.COM> Status: RO Content-Length: 1306 Nicolas Williams writes: > On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 08:03:18PM +0000, Ceri Davies wrote: > > You're probably right. If there are no objections, I can install the > > mailwrapper binary at /usr/lib/sendmail. > > I think that makes zero difference from a getting-the-docs-right point > of view, but having /usr/lib/sendmail as a symlink to mailwrapper sure > does make a difference: it gives those users who would do "ls -l > /usr/lib/sendmail" a mega-clue as to what manpage to read. That's precisely the problem I was pointing out. The sendmail(1M) man page documents the /usr/lib/sendmail interface. If that's to become mailwrapper (and I agree it should!), then it's _wrong_ to have that man page document something other than mailwrapper. You're assuming that users will do "ls -l /usr/lib/sendmail", see the mailwrapper link, and then stumble onto the mailwrapper(1M) man page. I'm assuming that the user invokes "man sendmail" first, and we tell him exactly what the interface does (it's not sendmail.org anymore), and that we point him in the right direction from there. -- James Carlson, Solaris Networking Sun Microsystems / 35 Network Drive 71.232W Vox +1 781 442 2084 MS UBUR02-212 / Burlington MA 01803-2757 42.496N Fax +1 781 442 1677 From Nicolas.Williams@sun.com Wed Dec 10 13:23:39 2008 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id mBALNdgh009143 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 13:23:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id mBALNbLE022140; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 13:23:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0KBO00B05JFDN800@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 14:23:37 -0700 (MST) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM ([129.153.128.104]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0KBO003AZJFBQ870@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 14:23:36 -0700 (MST) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.14.3+Sun/8.14.3) with ESMTP id mBAL7i2e006140; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 15:07:44 -0600 (CST) Received: (from nw141292@localhost) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.14.3+Sun/8.14.3/Submit) id mBAL7hl3006139; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 15:07:43 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 15:07:43 -0600 From: Nicolas Williams Subject: Re: mailwrapper (PSARC/2008/759) In-reply-to: <18752.11102.687823.301641@gargle.gargle.HOWL> To: James Carlson Cc: Ceri Davies , Danek Duvall , PSARC-ext@sun.com, John Plocher Message-id: <20081210210742.GE2463@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <20081210001111.GD7263@mumak.SFBay.Sun.COM> <20081210002741.GF7263@mumak.SFBay.Sun.COM> <20081210100846.GB20674@submonkey.net> <18751.56393.430303.879246@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20081210155902.GF20674@submonkey.net> <18751.59923.261757.282966@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20081210200318.GK20674@submonkey.net> <20081210201257.GC2463@Sun.COM> <18752.11102.687823.301641@gargle.gargle.HOWL> X-Authentication-warning: binky.Central.Sun.COM: nw141292 set sender to Nicolas.Williams@sun.com using -f User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.7i Status: RO Content-Length: 1742 On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 03:49:34PM -0500, James Carlson wrote: > Nicolas Williams writes: > > On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 08:03:18PM +0000, Ceri Davies wrote: > > > You're probably right. If there are no objections, I can install the > > > mailwrapper binary at /usr/lib/sendmail. > > > > I think that makes zero difference from a getting-the-docs-right point > > of view, but having /usr/lib/sendmail as a symlink to mailwrapper sure > > does make a difference: it gives those users who would do "ls -l > > /usr/lib/sendmail" a mega-clue as to what manpage to read. > > That's precisely the problem I was pointing out. > > The sendmail(1M) man page documents the /usr/lib/sendmail interface. > If that's to become mailwrapper (and I agree it should!), then it's > _wrong_ to have that man page document something other than > mailwrapper. Yes, but everyone knows what sendmail is, and mailwrapper is something else. What should happen here is that the sendmail(1M) manpage should prominently reference the mailwrapper manpage. > You're assuming that users will do "ls -l /usr/lib/sendmail", see the > mailwrapper link, and then stumble onto the mailwrapper(1M) man page. No, I'm not. I'm assuming that those that do will be able to skip the step where they'd read the sendmail manpage and there note the reference to the mailwrapper manpage. > I'm assuming that the user invokes "man sendmail" first, and we tell > him exactly what the interface does (it's not sendmail.org anymore), > and that we point him in the right direction from there. Except that sendmail is still sendmail -- not /usr/lib/sendmail, but when you run "man sendmail" how's man(1) to know that you mean "the sendmail in /usr/lib" instead of "the Real Sendmail"? From carlsonj@phorcys.east.sun.com Wed Dec 10 13:48:12 2008 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id mBALmCfo009464 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 13:48:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id mBALmAdP021108; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 13:48:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0KBO00E13KKA1X00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 14:48:10 -0700 (MST) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com ([129.148.174.143]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0KBO0031LKK8Q4A0@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 14:48:09 -0700 (MST) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.3+Sun/8.14.3) with ESMTP id mBALX8RJ021484; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 16:33:08 -0500 (EST) Received: (from carlsonj@localhost) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.3+Sun/8.14.3/Submit) id mBALX8ut021481; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 16:33:08 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 16:33:08 -0500 From: James Carlson Subject: Re: mailwrapper (PSARC/2008/759) In-reply-to: <20081210210742.GE2463@Sun.COM> To: Nicolas Williams Cc: Ceri Davies , Danek Duvall , PSARC-ext@sun.com, John Plocher Message-id: <18752.13716.138040.482819@gargle.gargle.HOWL> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: VM 7.01 under Emacs 21.3.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <20081210001111.GD7263@mumak.SFBay.Sun.COM> <20081210002741.GF7263@mumak.SFBay.Sun.COM> <20081210100846.GB20674@submonkey.net> <18751.56393.430303.879246@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20081210155902.GF20674@submonkey.net> <18751.59923.261757.282966@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20081210200318.GK20674@submonkey.net> <20081210201257.GC2463@Sun.COM> <18752.11102.687823.301641@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20081210210742.GE2463@Sun.COM> Status: RO Content-Length: 2013 Nicolas Williams writes: > On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 03:49:34PM -0500, James Carlson wrote: > > The sendmail(1M) man page documents the /usr/lib/sendmail interface. > > If that's to become mailwrapper (and I agree it should!), then it's > > _wrong_ to have that man page document something other than > > mailwrapper. > > Yes, but everyone knows what sendmail is, and mailwrapper is something > else. What should happen here is that the sendmail(1M) manpage should > prominently reference the mailwrapper manpage. Really? What then documents /usr/lib/sendmail? > > I'm assuming that the user invokes "man sendmail" first, and we tell > > him exactly what the interface does (it's not sendmail.org anymore), > > and that we point him in the right direction from there. > > Except that sendmail is still sendmail No, it's not. This project explicitly moves "the real sendmail" somewhere else, so that the wrapper can invoke it. > -- not /usr/lib/sendmail, but when > you run "man sendmail" how's man(1) to know that you mean "the sendmail > in /usr/lib" instead of "the Real Sendmail"? One way to do this would be to have a separate page that documents "the real sendmail." The mailwrapper change should create a new place for the alternative MTAs it invokes to live, and that's a fine place to document each of them. I don't like having sendmail(1M) list /usr/lib/sendmail and then tell you about something that isn't actually there, or is only "sometimes" there depending on configuration options. That's fine for the original design of mailwrapper -- a simple light hack that users can apply to their own systems, where the user "knows" what he's done to the system -- but makes no sense at all for a system that's supposed to be delivered without a pile of blue wires on top. -- James Carlson, Solaris Networking Sun Microsystems / 35 Network Drive 71.232W Vox +1 781 442 2084 MS UBUR02-212 / Burlington MA 01803-2757 42.496N Fax +1 781 442 1677 From ceri@submonkey.net Wed Dec 10 14:11:06 2008 Received: from sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id mBAMB4Gx010358 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 14:11:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id mBAMApio004141 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-ext@sun.com>; Thu, 11 Dec 2008 06:11:04 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0KBO00C01LMD2600@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Wed, 10 Dec 2008 14:11:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from sca-ea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.43.25]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0KBO00M6DLMC9XE0@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Wed, 10 Dec 2008 14:11:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay11i.sun.com (ip121.net129179-4.block1.us.syntegra.com [129.179.4.121]) by sca-ea-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id mBAMB0WF029454 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 22:11:00 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mmp13es.mmp.us.syntegra.com ([160.41.208.13] [160.41.208.13]) by relay11i.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-478289 for PSARC-ext@sun.com; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 22:09:00 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay13i.sun.com (relay13i.sun.com [129.179.4.123]) by mmp13es.mmp.us.syntegra.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-52519 for PSARC-ext@sun.com; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 22:09:00 +0000 (Z) Received: from scuttle.submonkey.net ([208.111.43.184] [208.111.43.184]) by relay1i.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-3304039 for PSARC-ext@sun.com; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 22:08:59 +0000 (Z) Received: from cpc1-cdif1-0-0-cust63.cdif.cable.ntl.com ([81.104.164.64] helo=shrike.submonkey.net) by scuttle.submonkey.net with esmtpsa (TLSv1:DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1LAXEn-0002iy-C2; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 22:08:57 +0000 Received: from ceri by shrike.submonkey.net with local (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1LAXEl-000EGO-DJ; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 22:08:55 +0000 Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 22:08:55 +0000 From: Ceri Davies Subject: Re: mailwrapper (PSARC/2008/759) In-reply-to: Sender: Ceri Davies To: John Plocher Cc: James Carlson , Danek Duvall , PSARC-ext@sun.com Message-id: <20081210220855.GM20674@submonkey.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary=bFUYW7mPOLJ+Jd2A Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== X-PGP: finger ceri@FreeBSD.org X-Antispam: No, score=0.0/5.0, scanned in 0.073sec at (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smf-spamd v1.3.1 - http://smfs.sf.net/ References: <200812100003.mBA03JHr010849@opal.eng.sun.com> <20081210001111.GD7263@mumak.SFBay.Sun.COM> <20081210002741.GF7263@mumak.SFBay.Sun.COM> <20081210100846.GB20674@submonkey.net> <18751.56393.430303.879246@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20081210155902.GF20674@submonkey.net> <18751.59923.261757.282966@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20081210200318.GK20674@submonkey.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Status: RO Content-Length: 2271 --bFUYW7mPOLJ+Jd2A Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 12:48:50PM -0800, John Plocher wrote: > > You're probably right. If there are no objections, I can install the > > mailwrapper binary at /usr/lib/sendmail. > > > > What does that mean for the manpages, specifically wrt section numbers > > for mailwrapper? >=20 > Except... >=20 > This thing *isn't* sendmail, it is a placeholder/proxy for the hardcoded > exec() strings stuffed into other applications. >=20 > What should the man pages say? This thing called sendmail isn't really > sendmail, it is a proxy for the real sendmail, which now lives over ->the= re->? > As it is now, the man page for mailwrapper does a pretty good job of > describing things. I really hadn't intended to suggest that "man sendmail" should show anything other than exactly what it does now. What I was actually asking is what section mailwrapper belongs in if there is no entity named mailwrapper in the system. I personally would prefer to deliver exactly what was originally proposed with the solitary change of moving /usr/sbin/mailwrapper to /usr/lib/mailwrapper. Changing the sendmail manpage in any way, shape or form is not on my agenda, I think it's wrong. This utility is called mailwrapper, not sendmail. > Without the mailwrapper name (which is how the rest of the world identifi= es > this feature), isn't this just asking for confusion - yet another place w= here > OpenSolaris is arbitrarily different in a small way from the rest of the = *nix > world? doesn't "being the same as other places" trump "but we could have > invent something better if we tried"? While I didn't want to say it, there is a Familiarity card to be played here, unless that only works with "Linux apps" :) Ceri --=20 That must be wonderful! I don't understand it at all. -- Moliere --bFUYW7mPOLJ+Jd2A Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFJQD33ocfcwTS3JF8RAgkUAJwMI4ti9nDGvCfRwUPb7c7ybgRAcwCdHH4A N2AfNggBTmYNDIJBDAMD1v4= =R4cF -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --bFUYW7mPOLJ+Jd2A-- From Nicolas.Williams@sun.com Wed Dec 10 14:11:38 2008 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id mBAMBcKp010394 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 14:11:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id mBAMBbBm016233; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 14:11:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0KBO00C0TLNC3500@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 14:11:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM ([129.153.128.104]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0KBO00M7TLNB9XE0@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 14:11:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.14.3+Sun/8.14.3) with ESMTP id mBALtice006159; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 15:55:44 -0600 (CST) Received: (from nw141292@localhost) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.14.3+Sun/8.14.3/Submit) id mBALtii4006158; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 15:55:44 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 15:55:44 -0600 From: Nicolas Williams Subject: Re: mailwrapper (PSARC/2008/759) In-reply-to: <18752.13716.138040.482819@gargle.gargle.HOWL> To: James Carlson Cc: Ceri Davies , Danek Duvall , PSARC-ext@sun.com, John Plocher Message-id: <20081210215543.GG2463@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <20081210002741.GF7263@mumak.SFBay.Sun.COM> <20081210100846.GB20674@submonkey.net> <18751.56393.430303.879246@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20081210155902.GF20674@submonkey.net> <18751.59923.261757.282966@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20081210200318.GK20674@submonkey.net> <20081210201257.GC2463@Sun.COM> <18752.11102.687823.301641@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20081210210742.GE2463@Sun.COM> <18752.13716.138040.482819@gargle.gargle.HOWL> X-Authentication-warning: binky.Central.Sun.COM: nw141292 set sender to Nicolas.Williams@sun.com using -f User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.7i Status: RO Content-Length: 2216 On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 04:33:08PM -0500, James Carlson wrote: > > Yes, but everyone knows what sendmail is, and mailwrapper is something > > else. What should happen here is that the sendmail(1M) manpage should > > prominently reference the mailwrapper manpage. > > Really? What then documents /usr/lib/sendmail? Yes, really. The sendmail(1M) manpage. As I wrote, I don't see how man(1) could know which the user wants the manpage for, the real sendmail or the wrapper, when the user runs "man sendmail" and I think it will be surprising if "man sendmail" shows the manpage for mailwrapper. Either way the manpage that "man sendmail" shows will have to have a prominent reference to the manpage that it is not. So perhaps this is just six of one and half a dozen of the other. > > Except that sendmail is still sendmail > > No, it's not. This project explicitly moves "the real sendmail" > somewhere else, so that the wrapper can invoke it. That's not what I meant. If I was explicitly looking for the manpage for sendmail, the real sendmail, whatever its name might be, I'd start with "man sendmail." > > -- not /usr/lib/sendmail, but when > > you run "man sendmail" how's man(1) to know that you mean "the sendmail > > in /usr/lib" instead of "the Real Sendmail"? > > One way to do this would be to have a separate page that documents > "the real sendmail." The mailwrapper change should create a new place > for the alternative MTAs it invokes to live, and that's a fine place > to document each of them. > > I don't like having sendmail(1M) list /usr/lib/sendmail and then tell > you about something that isn't actually there, or is only "sometimes" > there depending on configuration options. That's fine for the > original design of mailwrapper -- a simple light hack that users can > apply to their own systems, where the user "knows" what he's done to > the system -- but makes no sense at all for a system that's supposed > to be delivered without a pile of blue wires on top. OK, I'm convinced now that either choice is equivalent. I would still prefer that /usr/lib/sendmail be a symlink to mailwrapper because it will give a very strong visual clue to those users who do look at it. From Darren.Reed@sun.com Wed Dec 10 14:17:29 2008 Received: from newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (newsunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.245]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id mBAMHTxV010622 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 14:17:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id mBAMHRen026187 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-ext@sun.com>; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 15:17:29 -0700 (MST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0KBO00L07LX3VU00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@Sun.COM); Wed, 10 Dec 2008 14:17:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from gmp-eb-inf-2.sun.com ([192.18.6.24]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0KBO00A9XLX17Q80@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@Sun.COM); Wed, 10 Dec 2008 14:17:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from fe-emea-10.sun.com (gmp-eb-lb-2-fe3.eu.sun.com [192.18.6.12]) by gmp-eb-inf-2.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id mBAMHOnC005817 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 22:17:24 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.fe-emea-10.sun.com by fe-emea-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0KBO00B01LGFYF00@fe-emea-10.sun.com> (original mail from Darren.Reed@Sun.COM) for PSARC-ext@Sun.COM (ORCPT PSARC-ext@Sun.COM); Wed, 10 Dec 2008 22:17:24 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [192.168.1.101] ([202.45.110.141]) by fe-emea-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0KBO00IBRLWC91F0@fe-emea-10.sun.com>; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 22:17:03 +0000 (GMT) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 09:16:54 +1100 From: Darren Reed Subject: Re: mailwrapper (PSARC/2008/759) In-reply-to: <20081210100258.GA20674@submonkey.net> Sender: Darren.Reed@sun.com To: Ceri Davies Cc: John Beck , PSARC-ext@sun.com Message-id: <49403FD6.5050807@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <200812100003.mBA03JHr010849@opal.eng.sun.com> <493F0D20.109@Sun.COM> <20081210100258.GA20674@submonkey.net> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.18 (Windows/20081105) Status: RO Content-Length: 2160 Ceri Davies wrote: > On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 11:28:16AM +1100, Darren Reed wrote: >> John, >> >> What's the plan for mailx(1) use of of mailwrapper? >> Is it intended for mailx(1) to remain as a frontend to sendmail >> (only) or will it also use mailwrapper(1M)? >> >> If it's going to use mailwrapper(1M), then this case looks >> a bit incomplete as mailx(1) seems to suggest a few bits >> of its functionality are tied to sendmail... > > General usage is covered by an entry for "mail" in mailer.conf. > > The "conv" functionality, while alluding to a (undocumented) -U option to > sendmail(1M), is implemented internally to mailx(1). That sounds like a man page bug for mailx(1). > I can see -h, -m/metoo and possibly -v/verbose being an issue if a user > decides to switch out sendmail; would warnings in the manuals cover > this? What are you proposing be added? I suppose the important point here is that if a new mail application is installed that does something strange with -h/-m/-v then the unknowning user may get behaviour that wasn't intended. But in the very least, postfix also supports -v (but not -h/-m, it seems.) On one side, you might expect the developer of the new MTA to be aware of this and develop their CLI options to fit in. Looking at the man page for mailwrapper on NetBSD, that is the suggested outcome where other MTAs are written to fit the calling conventions of MUAs that expect sendmail to be there. The experiences thus far would suggest that at least this has happened, if it has been the case that there have been no reported interoperability issues here in the last decade (I'm rounding up your 9 years :) Thinking about it, it seems like the MTA/MUA history has proceeded along the right lines without anyone actually having laid down any rules because all MUAs are written to use sendmail and all MTAs are written to be invoked like sendmail. The question is, should we formalise this any further? Should, for example, the man page for mailwrapper explicitly reference sendmail for its CLI options? (The man page I'm looking at right now doesn't quite go that far in defining what the interfaces are.) Darren From john.plocher@gmail.com Wed Dec 10 14:34:58 2008 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id mBAMYvpV010828 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 14:34:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id mBAMYtNB016863; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 14:34:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0KBO00I05MQ8KJ00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 15:34:56 -0700 (MST) Received: from sca-ea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.43.24]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0KBO003NDMQ7Q4D0@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 15:34:56 -0700 (MST) Received: from relay11i.sun.com (ip121.net129179-4.block1.us.syntegra.com [129.179.4.121]) by sca-ea-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id mBAMYtlh009196; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 22:34:55 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mmp13es.mmp.us.syntegra.com ([160.41.208.13] [160.41.208.13]) by relay11i.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-479950; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 22:34:55 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay15i.sun.com (relay15i.sun.com [129.179.4.125]) by mmp13es.mmp.us.syntegra.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-69727; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 22:34:54 +0000 (Z) Received: from mail-gx0-f16.google.com ([209.85.217.16] [209.85.217.16]) by relay1ib.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-572967; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 22:34:54 +0000 (Z) Received: by gxk9 with SMTP id 9so897355gxk.8 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 14:34:49 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.90.49.8 with SMTP id w8mr1185711agw.85.1228948488484; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 14:34:48 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.90.31.7 with HTTP; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 14:34:48 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 14:34:48 -0800 From: John Plocher Subject: Re: mailwrapper (PSARC/2008/759) In-reply-to: <20081210220855.GM20674@submonkey.net> To: Ceri Davies Cc: James Carlson , Danek Duvall , PSARC-ext@sun.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to :subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=WqhsTOztp6o0v8X/S7UtUJJiQb7y1KYpL0s03KfsdiM=; b=oIvS2KcASVhsMFQqxdT+C23UazINQ0oRBR/6E530Yz5E9vvWHb7PjDDfcYAxq+8ckX c9Psqn4GkVOicPjrJsNWhDbmO7FYG6AL1SfrZTG4oZs8sqsuuYGTQfQ8RUxw9tbYt5Ij 44UPg7Dub0Q1Jzf7BquzmFDpvvjKYKYsW4d9M= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition :references; b=O8fG41ogNLPWw40kQaJP0+fQF8O9+Lv7wHz6dQKPn1oGBhw1xxJDKjLd+Co3K+AZoj TBeSQxcUOX1a5MS11Da0Z/REsdwdj4dW7HXxd3rXNIIB+G4EiL5s4PbSx/MGZ3nWi6DN tqn8p1h7AkSRP1Yv35XMo4lLb3yxdOWQ5E52Q= X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== X-Antispam: No, score=0.0/5.0, scanned in 0.059sec at (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smf-spamd v1.3.1 - http://smfs.sf.net/ References: <200812100003.mBA03JHr010849@opal.eng.sun.com> <20081210002741.GF7263@mumak.SFBay.Sun.COM> <20081210100846.GB20674@submonkey.net> <18751.56393.430303.879246@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20081210155902.GF20674@submonkey.net> <18751.59923.261757.282966@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20081210200318.GK20674@submonkey.net> <20081210220855.GM20674@submonkey.net> Status: RO Content-Length: 1453 On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 2:08 PM, Ceri Davies wrote: > I really hadn't intended to suggest that "man sendmail" should show > anything other than exactly what it does now. A "good" result might be: man sendmail Shows the man page for /usr/sbin/sendmail (aka mailwrapper), which has a reference to the "real" /usr/lib/sendmail and other MTAs. man -s1M sendmail Shows the "real" sendmail manpage, with a reference to mailwrapper. man -s1M Shows the "real" , with a reference to mailwrapper Alternatively, you could take a hint from VFS/mount (via the intro(1M) manpage: Because of command restructuring for the Virtual File System architecture, there are several instances of multiple manual pages that begin with the same name. For example, the mount, pages - mount(1M), mount_cachefs(1M), mount_hsfs(1M), mount_nfs(1M), mount_tmpfs(1M), and mount_ufs(1M). In each such case the first of the multiple pages describes the syn- tax and options of the generic command, that is, those options applicable to all FSTypes (file system types). The succeeding pages describe the functionality of the FSType- specific modules of the command. These pages list the com- mand followed by an underscore ( _ ) and the FSType to which they pertain. Note that the administrator should not attempt ... -John From jgh@wizmail.org Thu Dec 11 12:32:58 2008 Received: from sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id mBBKWsIh011141 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 2008 12:32:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id mBBKWmPl001925 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-ext@sun.com>; Fri, 12 Dec 2008 04:32:53 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0KBQ00B0VBQSL800@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Thu, 11 Dec 2008 12:32:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.98.31]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0KBQ009VLBQSVN70@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Thu, 11 Dec 2008 12:32:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay15i.sun.com (ip125.net129179-4.block1.us.syntegra.com [129.179.4.125]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id mBBKVqj6013080 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 2008 20:32:52 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mmp12es.mmp.us.syntegra.com ([160.41.208.12] [160.41.208.12]) by relay15i.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-253063 for PSARC-ext@sun.com; Thu, 11 Dec 2008 20:32:51 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay13i.sun.com (relay13i.sun.com [129.179.4.123]) by mmp12es.mmp.us.syntegra.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-19505777 for PSARC-ext@sun.com; Thu, 11 Dec 2008 20:32:50 +0000 (Z) Received: from wizmail.org ([217.146.107.12] [217.146.107.12]) by relay1i.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-3800767 for PSARC-ext@sun.com; Thu, 11 Dec 2008 20:32:50 +0000 (Z) Received: from ebony.jgh.adsl.wizards.co.uk ([217.146.123.59]) (from_AS 16353) by wizmail.org with esmtpsa (TLSv1:DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67) id 1LAsDJ-0007bM-Me for PSARC-ext@sun.com (return-path ) ; Thu, 11 Dec 2008 20:32:49 +0000 Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 20:32:48 +0000 From: Jeremy Harris Subject: Re: mailwrapper (PSARC/2008/759) In-reply-to: <200812100003.mBA03JHr010849@opal.eng.sun.com> To: PSARC-ext@sun.com Message-id: <494178F0.8020602@wizmail.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== X-Antispam: No, score=0.0/5.0, scanned in 0.329sec at (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smf-spamd v1.3.1 - http://smfs.sf.net/ References: <200812100003.mBA03JHr010849@opal.eng.sun.com> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.8.1.18) Gecko/20081119 Fedora/2.0.0.18-1.fc9 Thunderbird/2.0.0.18 Mnenhy/0.7.5.0 Status: RO Content-Length: 1422 John Beck wrote: > The programmatic interface to sendmail involves exec'ing a program > named /usr/lib/sendmail (or, outside Solaris, /usr/sbin/sendmail). > Administrators wishing to use an alternate MTA have to replace that > binary, which generally doesn't play all that well with packaging > and upgrade (sendmail isn't an editable file; multiple packages > delivering the same file is considered a no-no, etc.,). > > * Solution > > The common BSD distributions (FreeBSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD) include a > program called "mailwrapper" which allows for easy, packaging-safe > selection of the shell-command level interface to the default system > MTA. /usr/sbin/sendmail is a symlink to the mailwrapper binary, and > the "real" sendmail is installed somewhere else (on the *BSDs, > this is /usr/libexec/sendmail/sendmail). > > A default mailer.conf is delivered so that mailwrapper exec's > through to the real sendmail binary; an admin wishing to select > an alternate MTA will install it wherever they like (/opt, /usr/pkg, > etc.) and then edit the mailer.conf file as appropriate for the > new MTA. What is the advantage of mailwrapper versus merely moving the sendmail binary to somewhere else and placing default symlinks at /usr/sbin/sendmail and usr/lib/sendmail pointing to it, which symlinks can be replaced as required by the installer of an alternate MTA? - Jeremy Harris From Nicolas.Williams@Sun.COM Thu Dec 11 12:45:28 2008 Received: from sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id mBBKjR8u022749 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 2008 12:45:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id mBBKjMhS008088 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-ext@sun.com>; Fri, 12 Dec 2008 04:45:26 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0KBQ00405CBPMN00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Thu, 11 Dec 2008 12:45:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM ([129.153.128.104]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0KBQ00MGOCBP7A60@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Thu, 11 Dec 2008 12:45:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.14.3+Sun/8.14.3) with ESMTP id mBBKiYii007111; Thu, 11 Dec 2008 14:44:34 -0600 (CST) Received: (from nw141292@localhost) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.14.3+Sun/8.14.3/Submit) id mBBKiVK0007110; Thu, 11 Dec 2008 14:44:31 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 14:44:31 -0600 From: Nicolas Williams Subject: Re: mailwrapper (PSARC/2008/759) In-reply-to: <494178F0.8020602@wizmail.org> To: Jeremy Harris Cc: PSARC-ext@Sun.COM Message-id: <20081211204430.GN2463@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <200812100003.mBA03JHr010849@opal.eng.sun.com> <494178F0.8020602@wizmail.org> X-Authentication-warning: binky.Central.Sun.COM: nw141292 set sender to Nicolas.Williams@sun.com using -f User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.7i Status: RO Content-Length: 392 On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 08:32:48PM +0000, Jeremy Harris wrote: > What is the advantage of mailwrapper versus merely moving the > sendmail binary to somewhere else and placing default symlinks > at /usr/sbin/sendmail and usr/lib/sendmail pointing to it, which > symlinks can be replaced as required by the installer of an alternate > MTA? Symlinks do not a good configuration interface make. From jbeck@eng.sun.com Wed Dec 17 10:18:50 2008 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id mBHIIofO008699 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 2008 10:18:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from opal.eng.sun.com (opal.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.228.54]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id mBHIIoLp027171 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 2008 10:18:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from opal (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by opal.eng.sun.com (8.14.3+Sun/8.14.3) with ESMTP id mBHIIivb020875; Wed, 17 Dec 2008 10:18:44 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <200812171818.mBHIIivb020875@opal.eng.sun.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.7.2 2005-Jan-07 with nmh-1.0.3 To: PSARC-ext@sun.com Cc: Ceri Davies , John Beck Subject: Re: mailwrapper (PSARC/2008/759) X-Image-URL: http://playground.sun.com/~jbeck/gif/Misc/john-face.jpg In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 09 Dec 2008 16:03:19 PST." <200812100003.mBA03JHr010849@opal.eng.sun.com> References: <200812100003.mBA03JHr010849@opal.eng.sun.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 10:18:44 -0800 From: John Beck Status: RO Content-Length: 753 JBeck> I am sponsoring this fast-track for Ceri Davies. As indicated below, JBeck> the interfaces are a combination of Committed and Project Private and JBeck> the requested release binding is Minor. Because it is already late on JBeck> Tuesday, I am setting the timer for a week from tomorrow: 2008-Dec-17. This case was approved at this morning's PSARC meeting, with the following changes from the original proposal: * mailwrapper executable will ship in /usr/lib instead of /usr/sbin * sendmail(1m) needs to be clear that /usr/lib/sendmail is now a sym-link pointing to mailwrapper and provide a reference to the new man page for mailwrapper. The exact details of the wording can be worked out off-line. -- John http://blogs.sun.com/jbeck