From markcarl@sac.sfbay.sun.com Fri Dec 12 09:23:59 2008 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id mBCHNxIC013634 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 2008 09:23:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id mBCHNwMq013942; Fri, 12 Dec 2008 09:23:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0KBR00E0DXNYCB00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Fri, 12 Dec 2008 09:23:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from dm-sfbay-01.sfbay.sun.com ([129.145.155.118]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0KBR00ES2XNY3Y00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Fri, 12 Dec 2008 09:23:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from sac.sfbay.sun.com (new-sac.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.175.65]) by dm-sfbay-01.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id mBCHNvoE045882; Fri, 12 Dec 2008 09:23:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from sac.sfbay.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id mBCHNtFH013629; Fri, 12 Dec 2008 09:23:55 -0800 (PST) Received: (from markcarl@localhost) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/Submit) id mBCHNtfh013625; Fri, 12 Dec 2008 09:23:55 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 09:23:55 -0800 (PST) From: Mark Carlson Subject: libsndfile [PSARC/2008/767 FastTrack timeout 12/19/2008] To: PSARC-ext@sun.com Cc: Chris.Liu@sun.com Message-id: <200812121723.mBCHNtfh013625@sac.sfbay.sun.com> Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 Status: RO Content-Length: 3945 I am sponsoring this case for Chris Liu. It requests patch binding and times out on 12/19/2008. This is being provided for familiarity reasons and the case directory has a completed FOSS checklist. -- mark Template Version: @(#)sac_nextcase %I% %G% SMI This information is Copyright 2008 Sun Microsystems 1. Introduction 1.1. Project/Component Working Name: libsndfile 1.2. Name of Document Author/Supplier: Author: Chris Liu 1.3 Date of This Document: 12 December, 2008 2. Project Summary 2.1. Project Description This project introduces libsndfile 1.0.17, a C library for reading and writing files containing sampled sound under LGPLv3 into the SFW consolidation. 4. Technical Description 4.1. Details: Libsndfile is able to read and write a large number of audio file formats such as WAV, AIFF and etc. It provides a set of API and is ported to Linux, Unix, Windows and MacOS on multiple platforms such as x86 and sparc. It can also convert audio format on the fly, including endian-ness swapping, type conversion and bitwidth scaling. Applications can query the library about all supported formats and retrieve text strings describing each format. Libsndfile also has a comprehensive test suite and is quite mature. 4.5 Interfaces: Exported Interface | Stability | Description --------------------------------------|--------------|------------------- SUNWlibsndfile | Uncommitted | package name usr/lib/libsndfile.so.1.0.17 | Uncommitted | library usr/lib/libsndfile.so | Uncommitted | symbol link usr/lib/64/libsndfile.so.1.0.17 | Uncommitted | library usr/lib/64/libsndfile.so | Uncommitted | symbol link usr/lib/pkgconfig/sndfile.pc | Uncommitted | pkgconfig file usr/include/sndfile.h | Uncommitted | header file usr/include/sndfile.hh | Uncommitted | header file usr/bin/sndfile-info | Uncommitted | command usr/bin/sndfile-play | Uncommitted | command usr/bin/sndfile-convert | Uncommitted | command usr/bin/sndfile-regtest | Uncommitted | command usr/share/man/man1/sndfile-info.1 | Uncommitted | manpage of command usr/share/man/man1/sndfile-play.1 | Uncommitted | manpage of command usr/share/man/man1/sndfile-convert.1 | Uncommitted | manpage of command Imported Interface | Stability | Description --------------------------------------|--------------|------------------- FLAC 1.2.1 (within Gnome) | Uncommitted | LSARC 2007/520 Ogg-Vorbis (within Gnome) | Uncommitted | LSARC 2007/520 Other documents: usr/share/doc/libsndfile/html/libsndfile.jpg usr/share/doc/libsndfile/html/libsndfile.css usr/share/doc/libsndfile/html/api.html usr/share/doc/libsndfile/html/command.html usr/share/doc/libsndfile/html/bugs.html usr/share/doc/libsndfile/html/sndfile_info.html usr/share/doc/libsndfile/html/new_file_type.HOWTO usr/share/doc/libsndfile/html/pkgconfig.html usr/share/doc/libsndfile/html/win32.html usr/share/doc/libsndfile/html/FAQ.html usr/share/doc/libsndfile/html/lists.html usr/share/doc/libsndfile/html/embedded_files.html usr/share/doc/libsndfile/html/octave.html usr/share/doc/libsndfile/html/dither.html usr/share/octave/site/m/sndfile_load.m usr/share/octave/site/m/sndfile_save.m usr/share/octave/site/m/sndfile_play.m 5. References http://www.mega-nerd.com/libsndfile/ 6. Resources and Schedule 6.4. Steering Committee requested information 6.4.1. Consolidation C-team Name: SFW 6.5. ARC review type: FastTrack 6.6. ARC Exposure: open From gdamore@sun.com Fri Dec 12 11:10:30 2008 Received: from sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id mBCJATef016522 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 2008 11:10:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id mBCJASmZ012438 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-ext@sun.com>; Sat, 13 Dec 2008 03:10:28 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0KBS009012LFJC00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@Sun.COM); Fri, 12 Dec 2008 12:10:27 -0700 (MST) Received: from sca-es-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.43.132]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0KBS001NW2LEDJ60@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@Sun.COM); Fri, 12 Dec 2008 12:10:26 -0700 (MST) Received: from fe-sfbay-09.sun.com ([192.18.43.129]) by sca-es-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id mBCJAQC2022300 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 2008 11:10:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from conversion-daemon.fe-sfbay-09.sun.com by fe-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0KBR00M01ZTJ7H00@fe-sfbay-09.sun.com> (original mail from gdamore@sun.com) for PSARC-ext@Sun.COM (ORCPT PSARC-ext@Sun.COM); Fri, 12 Dec 2008 11:10:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.7.251.172] by fe-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0KBS00DZA2L1MK30@fe-sfbay-09.sun.com>; Fri, 12 Dec 2008 11:10:14 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 11:02:44 -0800 From: "Garrett D'Amore" Subject: Re: libsndfile [PSARC/2008/767 FastTrack timeout 12/19/2008] In-reply-to: <200812121723.mBCHNtfh013625@sac.sfbay.sun.com> Sender: Garrett.Damore@sun.com To: Mark Carlson Cc: PSARC-ext@sun.com, Chris.Liu@sun.com Message-id: <4942B554.2090300@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <200812121723.mBCHNtfh013625@sac.sfbay.sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.14 (X11/20080616) Status: RO Content-Length: 5354 This case seems like it provides alternate functionality to audioplay & audioconvert (but unfortunately not audiorecord). It turns out that Boomer has, um, issues with some of the above legacy Sun utilities (including audiorecord) -- mostly because they straddle the bounds between "mixer" applications and "player" or "record" applications. It seems like we could potentially use this case to deprecate (but not yet remove) the legacy Sun utilities, marking them Obsolete. Ignoring (for the moment) audiorecord, are you aware of any functionality offered by audioplay or audioconvert that is *not* covered under these utilities? Also, I *presume* that these utilities can be compiled to support OSS APIs? Can you please verify that? When boomer integrates with *full* support for all audio devices (incl. Sun Ray), we might want to switch these to use the OSS APIs. There's also a big overlap with other projects (libaudiofile, SoX, etc.) While I don't particularly mind haivng a bunch of these open source apps, if they turn out to be better and more popular than our own offerings, then I'd just prefer that we move away from trying to provide our (inferior) alternatives. -- Garrett Mark Carlson wrote: > I am sponsoring this case for Chris Liu. It requests patch > binding and times out on 12/19/2008. This is being provided > for familiarity reasons and the case directory has a completed > FOSS checklist. > > -- mark > > Template Version: @(#)sac_nextcase %I% %G% SMI > This information is Copyright 2008 Sun Microsystems > 1. Introduction > 1.1. Project/Component Working Name: > libsndfile > 1.2. Name of Document Author/Supplier: > Author: Chris Liu > 1.3 Date of This Document: > 12 December, 2008 > > 2. Project Summary > 2.1. Project Description > This project introduces libsndfile 1.0.17, a C library for reading > and writing files containing sampled sound under LGPLv3 into the > SFW consolidation. > > 4. Technical Description > 4.1. Details: > Libsndfile is able to read and write a large number of audio file > formats such as WAV, AIFF and etc. It provides a set of API and is > ported to Linux, Unix, Windows and MacOS on multiple platforms such > as x86 and sparc. It can also convert audio format on the fly, > including endian-ness swapping, type conversion and bitwidth scaling. > Applications can query the library about all supported formats and > retrieve text strings describing each format. Libsndfile also has > a comprehensive test suite and is quite mature. > > 4.5 Interfaces: > > Exported Interface | Stability | Description > --------------------------------------|--------------|------------------- > SUNWlibsndfile | Uncommitted | package name > usr/lib/libsndfile.so.1.0.17 | Uncommitted | library > usr/lib/libsndfile.so | Uncommitted | symbol link > usr/lib/64/libsndfile.so.1.0.17 | Uncommitted | library > usr/lib/64/libsndfile.so | Uncommitted | symbol link > usr/lib/pkgconfig/sndfile.pc | Uncommitted | pkgconfig file > usr/include/sndfile.h | Uncommitted | header file > usr/include/sndfile.hh | Uncommitted | header file > usr/bin/sndfile-info | Uncommitted | command > usr/bin/sndfile-play | Uncommitted | command > usr/bin/sndfile-convert | Uncommitted | command > usr/bin/sndfile-regtest | Uncommitted | command > usr/share/man/man1/sndfile-info.1 | Uncommitted | manpage of command > usr/share/man/man1/sndfile-play.1 | Uncommitted | manpage of command > usr/share/man/man1/sndfile-convert.1 | Uncommitted | manpage of command > > Imported Interface | Stability | Description > --------------------------------------|--------------|------------------- > FLAC 1.2.1 (within Gnome) | Uncommitted | LSARC 2007/520 > Ogg-Vorbis (within Gnome) | Uncommitted | LSARC 2007/520 > > Other documents: > usr/share/doc/libsndfile/html/libsndfile.jpg > usr/share/doc/libsndfile/html/libsndfile.css > usr/share/doc/libsndfile/html/api.html > usr/share/doc/libsndfile/html/command.html > usr/share/doc/libsndfile/html/bugs.html > usr/share/doc/libsndfile/html/sndfile_info.html > usr/share/doc/libsndfile/html/new_file_type.HOWTO > usr/share/doc/libsndfile/html/pkgconfig.html > usr/share/doc/libsndfile/html/win32.html > usr/share/doc/libsndfile/html/FAQ.html > usr/share/doc/libsndfile/html/lists.html > usr/share/doc/libsndfile/html/embedded_files.html > usr/share/doc/libsndfile/html/octave.html > usr/share/doc/libsndfile/html/dither.html > usr/share/octave/site/m/sndfile_load.m > usr/share/octave/site/m/sndfile_save.m > usr/share/octave/site/m/sndfile_play.m > > 5. References > http://www.mega-nerd.com/libsndfile/ > > 6. Resources and Schedule > 6.4. Steering Committee requested information > 6.4.1. Consolidation C-team Name: > SFW > 6.5. ARC review type: FastTrack > 6.6. ARC Exposure: open > > From Chris.Liu@Sun.COM Mon Dec 15 09:38:57 2008 Received: from sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id mBFHcuxu028449 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 09:38:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id mBFHctwp000398 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-ext@sun.com>; Tue, 16 Dec 2008 01:38:55 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0KBX00A1DICUXW00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@Sun.COM); Mon, 15 Dec 2008 09:38:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from sineb-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.19.7]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0KBX006LPICSXNB0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@Sun.COM); Mon, 15 Dec 2008 09:38:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from fe-apac-05.sun.com (fe-apac-05.sun.com [192.18.19.176] (may be forged)) by sineb-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id mBFHcqrd008475 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 17:38:52 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.mail-apac.sun.com by mail-apac.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) id <0KBX00601IBGUL00@mail-apac.sun.com> (original mail from Chris.Liu@Sun.COM) for PSARC-ext@Sun.COM (ORCPT PSARC-ext@Sun.COM); Tue, 16 Dec 2008 01:38:52 +0800 (SGT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([129.150.144.38]) by mail-apac.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0KBX005V8ICPM5R2@mail-apac.sun.com>; Tue, 16 Dec 2008 01:38:52 +0800 (SGT) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 01:38:49 +0800 From: Chris Liu Subject: Re: libsndfile [PSARC/2008/767 FastTrack timeout 12/19/2008] In-reply-to: <4942B554.2090300@sun.com> Sender: Chris.Liu@Sun.COM To: "Garrett D'Amore" Cc: Mark Carlson , PSARC-ext@Sun.COM Message-id: <49469629.4070809@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <200812121723.mBCHNtfh013625@sac.sfbay.sun.com> <4942B554.2090300@sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.18 (Windows/20081105) Status: RO Content-Length: 6952 Let me explain respectively. OSS - libsndfile has not much to do with OSS. It mainly focused on processing data from one format to others. It does not like to deal much with hardware or operating systems. The only exception may be sndfile-play. Sndfile-play is one of three tiny utilities it provides, which only writes audio data directly to /dev/audio (on Solaris), which is standard audio device on Solaris. On SunRay sndfile-play wont work properly because SunRay client uses another audio device specified by $AUDIODEV. However, it is not a main purpose of libsndfile. Overlaps - SoX is an all-in-one, command line based, audio converting tool. It does not provide APIs to other program. Libaudiofile is fairly out of date. The last update is released in 2004. Libsndfile is more active. Audioplay/record/convert are legacy tools. Libsndfile could covert most of their functions except recording, however, I would like to use another new case to EOL these legacy tools, considering there may be dependencies on those legacy tools. That needs more effort to investigate other than this case. On more reason that I wanted to integrate libsndfile is that the library is widely used by many opensource softwares. With this library, we can expect more audio processing tools in Solaris. Thanks, - Chris Garrett D'Amore wrote: > This case seems like it provides alternate functionality to audioplay > & audioconvert (but unfortunately not audiorecord). > > It turns out that Boomer has, um, issues with some of the above legacy > Sun utilities (including audiorecord) -- mostly because they straddle > the bounds between "mixer" applications and "player" or "record" > applications. > > It seems like we could potentially use this case to deprecate (but not > yet remove) the legacy Sun utilities, marking them Obsolete. Ignoring > (for the moment) audiorecord, are you aware of any functionality > offered by audioplay or audioconvert that is *not* covered under these > utilities? > > Also, I *presume* that these utilities can be compiled to support OSS > APIs? Can you please verify that? When boomer integrates with *full* > support for all audio devices (incl. Sun Ray), we might want to switch > these to use the OSS APIs. > > There's also a big overlap with other projects (libaudiofile, SoX, > etc.) While I don't particularly mind haivng a bunch of these open > source apps, if they turn out to be better and more popular than our > own offerings, then I'd just prefer that we move away from trying to > provide our (inferior) alternatives. > > -- Garrett > > Mark Carlson wrote: >> I am sponsoring this case for Chris Liu. It requests patch >> binding and times out on 12/19/2008. This is being provided >> for familiarity reasons and the case directory has a completed >> FOSS checklist. >> >> -- mark >> >> Template Version: @(#)sac_nextcase %I% %G% SMI >> This information is Copyright 2008 Sun Microsystems >> 1. Introduction >> 1.1. Project/Component Working Name: >> libsndfile >> 1.2. Name of Document Author/Supplier: >> Author: Chris Liu >> 1.3 Date of This Document: >> 12 December, 2008 >> >> 2. Project Summary >> 2.1. Project Description >> This project introduces libsndfile 1.0.17, a C library for >> reading >> and writing files containing sampled sound under LGPLv3 into the >> SFW consolidation. >> 4. Technical Description >> 4.1. Details: >> Libsndfile is able to read and write a large number of audio >> file >> formats such as WAV, AIFF and etc. It provides a set of API >> and is >> ported to Linux, Unix, Windows and MacOS on multiple >> platforms such >> as x86 and sparc. It can also convert audio format on the fly, >> including endian-ness swapping, type conversion and bitwidth >> scaling. >> Applications can query the library about all supported >> formats and >> retrieve text strings describing each format. Libsndfile also >> has >> a comprehensive test suite and is quite mature. >> >> 4.5 Interfaces: >> >> Exported Interface | Stability | >> Description >> >> --------------------------------------|--------------|------------------- >> >> SUNWlibsndfile | Uncommitted | package name >> usr/lib/libsndfile.so.1.0.17 | Uncommitted | library >> usr/lib/libsndfile.so | Uncommitted | symbol link >> usr/lib/64/libsndfile.so.1.0.17 | Uncommitted | library >> usr/lib/64/libsndfile.so | Uncommitted | symbol link >> usr/lib/pkgconfig/sndfile.pc | Uncommitted | pkgconfig >> file >> usr/include/sndfile.h | Uncommitted | header file >> usr/include/sndfile.hh | Uncommitted | header file >> usr/bin/sndfile-info | Uncommitted | command >> usr/bin/sndfile-play | Uncommitted | command >> usr/bin/sndfile-convert | Uncommitted | command >> usr/bin/sndfile-regtest | Uncommitted | command >> usr/share/man/man1/sndfile-info.1 | Uncommitted | manpage of >> command >> usr/share/man/man1/sndfile-play.1 | Uncommitted | manpage of >> command >> usr/share/man/man1/sndfile-convert.1 | Uncommitted | manpage of >> command >> >> Imported Interface | Stability | >> Description >> >> --------------------------------------|--------------|------------------- >> >> FLAC 1.2.1 (within Gnome) | Uncommitted | LSARC >> 2007/520 >> Ogg-Vorbis (within Gnome) | Uncommitted | LSARC >> 2007/520 >> >> Other documents: >> usr/share/doc/libsndfile/html/libsndfile.jpg >> usr/share/doc/libsndfile/html/libsndfile.css >> usr/share/doc/libsndfile/html/api.html >> usr/share/doc/libsndfile/html/command.html >> usr/share/doc/libsndfile/html/bugs.html >> usr/share/doc/libsndfile/html/sndfile_info.html >> usr/share/doc/libsndfile/html/new_file_type.HOWTO >> usr/share/doc/libsndfile/html/pkgconfig.html >> usr/share/doc/libsndfile/html/win32.html >> usr/share/doc/libsndfile/html/FAQ.html >> usr/share/doc/libsndfile/html/lists.html >> usr/share/doc/libsndfile/html/embedded_files.html >> usr/share/doc/libsndfile/html/octave.html >> usr/share/doc/libsndfile/html/dither.html >> usr/share/octave/site/m/sndfile_load.m >> usr/share/octave/site/m/sndfile_save.m >> usr/share/octave/site/m/sndfile_play.m >> >> 5. References >> http://www.mega-nerd.com/libsndfile/ >> 6. Resources and Schedule >> 6.4. Steering Committee requested information >> 6.4.1. Consolidation C-team Name: >> SFW >> 6.5. ARC review type: FastTrack >> 6.6. ARC Exposure: open >> >> > From gdamore@sun.com Mon Dec 15 10:37:50 2008 Received: from sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id mBFIbns8000537 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 10:37:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id mBFIbULt002880 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-ext@sun.com>; Tue, 16 Dec 2008 02:37:46 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0KBX0030FL2VYW00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@Sun.COM); Mon, 15 Dec 2008 11:37:43 -0700 (MST) Received: from sca-es-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.43.133]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0KBX00JAJL2UQS60@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@Sun.COM); Mon, 15 Dec 2008 11:37:42 -0700 (MST) Received: from fe-sfbay-09.sun.com ([192.18.43.129]) by sca-es-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id mBFIbgea021067 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 10:37:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from conversion-daemon.fe-sfbay-09.sun.com by fe-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0KBX00801JHTVO00@fe-sfbay-09.sun.com> (original mail from gdamore@sun.com) for PSARC-ext@Sun.COM (ORCPT PSARC-ext@Sun.COM); Mon, 15 Dec 2008 10:37:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.7.251.172] by fe-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0KBX00AWRL2TJP50@fe-sfbay-09.sun.com>; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 10:37:42 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 10:30:00 -0800 From: "Garrett D'Amore" Subject: Re: libsndfile [PSARC/2008/767 FastTrack timeout 12/19/2008] In-reply-to: <49469629.4070809@Sun.COM> Sender: Garrett.Damore@sun.com To: Chris Liu Cc: Mark Carlson , psarc-ext@sun.com Message-id: <4946A228.2080607@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <200812121723.mBCHNtfh013625@sac.sfbay.sun.com> <4942B554.2090300@sun.com> <49469629.4070809@Sun.COM> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.14 (X11/20080616) Status: RO Content-Length: 7630 Chris Liu wrote: > Let me explain respectively. > > OSS - libsndfile has not much to do with OSS. It mainly focused on > processing data from one format to others. It does not like to deal > much with hardware or operating systems. The only exception may be > sndfile-play. Sndfile-play is one of three tiny utilities it provides, > which only writes audio data directly to /dev/audio (on Solaris), > which is standard audio device on Solaris. On SunRay sndfile-play wont > work properly because SunRay client uses another audio device > specified by $AUDIODEV. However, it is not a main purpose of libsndfile. If this is the case, can we skip integrating sndfile-play, at least until it honors Sun Ray? > > Overlaps - > SoX is an all-in-one, command line based, audio converting tool. > It does not provide APIs to other program. > Libaudiofile is fairly out of date. The last update is released > in 2004. Libsndfile is more active. > Audioplay/record/convert are legacy tools. Libsndfile could > covert most of their functions except recording, however, I would like > to use another new case to EOL these legacy tools, considering there > may be dependencies on those legacy tools. That needs more effort to > investigate other than this case. I was just talking about marking them Obsolete, not actually removing them. I don't think we'll be able to actually remove them anytime in my lifetime. :-) > > On more reason that I wanted to integrate libsndfile is that the > library is widely used by many opensource softwares. With this > library, we can expect more audio processing tools in Solaris. I'm inclined, from the materials presented here, to recommend against integration of the sndfile-play utility, but to recommend *for* integration of the library and the audio conversion utility. -- Garrett > > Thanks, > - Chris > > > Garrett D'Amore wrote: >> This case seems like it provides alternate functionality to audioplay >> & audioconvert (but unfortunately not audiorecord). >> >> It turns out that Boomer has, um, issues with some of the above >> legacy Sun utilities (including audiorecord) -- mostly because they >> straddle the bounds between "mixer" applications and "player" or >> "record" applications. >> >> It seems like we could potentially use this case to deprecate (but >> not yet remove) the legacy Sun utilities, marking them Obsolete. >> Ignoring (for the moment) audiorecord, are you aware of any >> functionality offered by audioplay or audioconvert that is *not* >> covered under these utilities? >> >> Also, I *presume* that these utilities can be compiled to support OSS >> APIs? Can you please verify that? When boomer integrates with >> *full* support for all audio devices (incl. Sun Ray), we might want >> to switch these to use the OSS APIs. >> >> There's also a big overlap with other projects (libaudiofile, SoX, >> etc.) While I don't particularly mind haivng a bunch of these open >> source apps, if they turn out to be better and more popular than our >> own offerings, then I'd just prefer that we move away from trying to >> provide our (inferior) alternatives. >> >> -- Garrett >> >> Mark Carlson wrote: >>> I am sponsoring this case for Chris Liu. It requests patch >>> binding and times out on 12/19/2008. This is being provided >>> for familiarity reasons and the case directory has a completed >>> FOSS checklist. >>> >>> -- mark >>> >>> Template Version: @(#)sac_nextcase %I% %G% SMI >>> This information is Copyright 2008 Sun Microsystems >>> 1. Introduction >>> 1.1. Project/Component Working Name: >>> libsndfile >>> 1.2. Name of Document Author/Supplier: >>> Author: Chris Liu >>> 1.3 Date of This Document: >>> 12 December, 2008 >>> 2. Project Summary >>> 2.1. Project Description >>> This project introduces libsndfile 1.0.17, a C library for >>> reading >>> and writing files containing sampled sound under LGPLv3 into >>> the >>> SFW consolidation. >>> 4. Technical Description >>> 4.1. Details: >>> Libsndfile is able to read and write a large number of audio >>> file >>> formats such as WAV, AIFF and etc. It provides a set of API >>> and is >>> ported to Linux, Unix, Windows and MacOS on multiple >>> platforms such >>> as x86 and sparc. It can also convert audio format on the fly, >>> including endian-ness swapping, type conversion and bitwidth >>> scaling. >>> Applications can query the library about all supported >>> formats and >>> retrieve text strings describing each format. Libsndfile >>> also has >>> a comprehensive test suite and is quite mature. >>> >>> 4.5 Interfaces: >>> >>> Exported Interface | Stability | >>> Description >>> >>> --------------------------------------|--------------|------------------- >>> >>> SUNWlibsndfile | Uncommitted | package name >>> usr/lib/libsndfile.so.1.0.17 | Uncommitted | library >>> usr/lib/libsndfile.so | Uncommitted | symbol link >>> usr/lib/64/libsndfile.so.1.0.17 | Uncommitted | library >>> usr/lib/64/libsndfile.so | Uncommitted | symbol link >>> usr/lib/pkgconfig/sndfile.pc | Uncommitted | pkgconfig >>> file >>> usr/include/sndfile.h | Uncommitted | header file >>> usr/include/sndfile.hh | Uncommitted | header file >>> usr/bin/sndfile-info | Uncommitted | command >>> usr/bin/sndfile-play | Uncommitted | command >>> usr/bin/sndfile-convert | Uncommitted | command >>> usr/bin/sndfile-regtest | Uncommitted | command >>> usr/share/man/man1/sndfile-info.1 | Uncommitted | manpage >>> of command >>> usr/share/man/man1/sndfile-play.1 | Uncommitted | manpage >>> of command >>> usr/share/man/man1/sndfile-convert.1 | Uncommitted | manpage >>> of command >>> >>> Imported Interface | Stability | >>> Description >>> >>> --------------------------------------|--------------|------------------- >>> >>> FLAC 1.2.1 (within Gnome) | Uncommitted | LSARC >>> 2007/520 >>> Ogg-Vorbis (within Gnome) | Uncommitted | LSARC >>> 2007/520 >>> >>> Other documents: >>> usr/share/doc/libsndfile/html/libsndfile.jpg >>> usr/share/doc/libsndfile/html/libsndfile.css >>> usr/share/doc/libsndfile/html/api.html >>> usr/share/doc/libsndfile/html/command.html >>> usr/share/doc/libsndfile/html/bugs.html >>> usr/share/doc/libsndfile/html/sndfile_info.html >>> usr/share/doc/libsndfile/html/new_file_type.HOWTO >>> usr/share/doc/libsndfile/html/pkgconfig.html >>> usr/share/doc/libsndfile/html/win32.html >>> usr/share/doc/libsndfile/html/FAQ.html >>> usr/share/doc/libsndfile/html/lists.html >>> usr/share/doc/libsndfile/html/embedded_files.html >>> usr/share/doc/libsndfile/html/octave.html >>> usr/share/doc/libsndfile/html/dither.html >>> usr/share/octave/site/m/sndfile_load.m >>> usr/share/octave/site/m/sndfile_save.m >>> usr/share/octave/site/m/sndfile_play.m >>> >>> 5. References >>> http://www.mega-nerd.com/libsndfile/ >>> 6. Resources and Schedule >>> 6.4. Steering Committee requested information >>> 6.4.1. Consolidation C-team Name: >>> SFW >>> 6.5. ARC review type: FastTrack >>> 6.6. ARC Exposure: open >>> >>> >> > From Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com Mon Dec 15 10:44:40 2008 Received: from sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id mBFIid3d000875 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 10:44:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id mBFIiXXB006967 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-ext@sun.com>; Tue, 16 Dec 2008 02:44:38 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0KBX00403LEDAW00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@Sun.COM); Mon, 15 Dec 2008 10:44:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from sca-es-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.43.132]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0KBX00JSILEC3HB0@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@Sun.COM); Mon, 15 Dec 2008 10:44:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from fe-sfbay-09.sun.com ([192.18.43.129]) by sca-es-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id mBFIia0Q013867 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 10:44:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from conversion-daemon.fe-sfbay-09.sun.com by fe-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0KBX00801L4CV400@fe-sfbay-09.sun.com> (original mail from Alan.Coopersmith@Sun.COM) for PSARC-ext@Sun.COM (ORCPT PSARC-ext@Sun.COM); Mon, 15 Dec 2008 10:44:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.6.102.118] by fe-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0KBX00ANRLEBJP90@fe-sfbay-09.sun.com>; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 10:44:36 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 10:44:35 -0800 From: Alan Coopersmith Subject: Re: libsndfile [PSARC/2008/767 FastTrack timeout 12/19/2008] In-reply-to: <4946A228.2080607@sun.com> Sender: Alan.Coopersmith@sun.com To: "Garrett D'Amore" Cc: Chris Liu , Mark Carlson , PSARC-ext@sun.com Message-id: <4946A593.1030401@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.1 References: <200812121723.mBCHNtfh013625@sac.sfbay.sun.com> <4942B554.2090300@sun.com> <49469629.4070809@Sun.COM> <4946A228.2080607@sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (X11/20071119) Status: RO Content-Length: 1081 Garrett D'Amore wrote: > Chris Liu wrote: >> Let me explain respectively. >> >> OSS - libsndfile has not much to do with OSS. It mainly focused on >> processing data from one format to others. It does not like to deal >> much with hardware or operating systems. The only exception may be >> sndfile-play. Sndfile-play is one of three tiny utilities it provides, >> which only writes audio data directly to /dev/audio (on Solaris), >> which is standard audio device on Solaris. On SunRay sndfile-play wont >> work properly because SunRay client uses another audio device >> specified by $AUDIODEV. However, it is not a main purpose of libsndfile. > > If this is the case, can we skip integrating sndfile-play, at least > until it honors Sun Ray? That should be a 5 line change to the source, hardly much of a burden - just changing open("/dev/audio") to checking getenv("AUDIODEV") and using that if not NULL, otherwise using "/dev/audio". Why not just fix it? -- -Alan Coopersmith- alan.coopersmith@sun.com Sun Microsystems, Inc. - X Window System Engineering From Sebastien.Roy@sun.com Mon Dec 15 10:49:17 2008 Received: from newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (newsunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.245]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id mBFInHf6001016 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 10:49:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id mBFInGvJ020784 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-ext@sun.com>; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 11:49:17 -0700 (MST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0KBX00J1PLM5KV00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Mon, 15 Dec 2008 10:49:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.98.43]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0KBX00CYSLM4IZ50@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Mon, 15 Dec 2008 10:49:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from fe-amer-09.sun.com ([192.18.109.79]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id mBFInG6R001181 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 18:49:16 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.mail-amer.sun.com by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0KBX00C01K3JNB00@mail-amer.sun.com> (original mail from Sebastien.Roy@Sun.COM) for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Mon, 15 Dec 2008 11:49:16 -0700 (MST) Received: from [129.148.174.103] by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0KBX00HHBLLTGK80@mail-amer.sun.com>; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 11:49:06 -0700 (MST) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 13:48:58 -0500 From: Sebastien Roy Subject: Re: libsndfile [PSARC/2008/767 FastTrack timeout 12/19/2008] In-reply-to: <4946A228.2080607@sun.com> Sender: Sebastien.Roy@sun.com To: "Garrett D'Amore" Cc: Chris Liu , PSARC-ext@sun.com, Mark Carlson Message-id: <1229366938.1545.11.camel@strat> Organization: Sun Microsystems MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.24.0 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <200812121723.mBCHNtfh013625@sac.sfbay.sun.com> <4942B554.2090300@sun.com> <49469629.4070809@Sun.COM> <4946A228.2080607@sun.com> Status: RO Content-Length: 1034 On Mon, 2008-12-15 at 10:30 -0800, Garrett D'Amore wrote: > Chris Liu wrote: > > Let me explain respectively. > > > > OSS - libsndfile has not much to do with OSS. It mainly focused on > > processing data from one format to others. It does not like to deal > > much with hardware or operating systems. The only exception may be > > sndfile-play. Sndfile-play is one of three tiny utilities it provides, > > which only writes audio data directly to /dev/audio (on Solaris), > > which is standard audio device on Solaris. On SunRay sndfile-play wont > > work properly because SunRay client uses another audio device > > specified by $AUDIODEV. However, it is not a main purpose of libsndfile. > > If this is the case, can we skip integrating sndfile-play, at least > until it honors Sun Ray? It sounds to me more like the SunRay audio architecture is inadequate to support 3rd party tools. Perhaps that should be fixed rather than require audio software developers to have to add Sun-specific code to support SunRay. -Seb From gdamore@Sun.COM Mon Dec 15 10:57:05 2008 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id mBFIv5HF001624 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 10:57:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id mBFIuMkR014528 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-ext@sun.com>; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 10:57:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0KBX00505LYUQ900@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Mon, 15 Dec 2008 11:56:54 -0700 (MST) Received: from sca-es-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.43.132]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0KBX00JTPLYTQV60@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Mon, 15 Dec 2008 11:56:53 -0700 (MST) Received: from fe-sfbay-09.sun.com ([192.18.43.129]) by sca-es-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id mBFIuquc015882 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 10:56:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from conversion-daemon.fe-sfbay-09.sun.com by fe-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0KBX00801L4CV400@fe-sfbay-09.sun.com> (original mail from gdamore@Sun.COM) for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Mon, 15 Dec 2008 10:56:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.7.251.172] by fe-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0KBX00A3HLYLJPG0@fe-sfbay-09.sun.com>; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 10:56:46 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 10:49:04 -0800 From: "Garrett D'Amore" Subject: Re: libsndfile [PSARC/2008/767 FastTrack timeout 12/19/2008] In-reply-to: <1229366938.1545.11.camel@strat> Sender: Garrett.Damore@Sun.COM To: Sebastien Roy Cc: Chris Liu , PSARC-ext@Sun.COM, Mark Carlson Message-id: <4946A6A0.9010101@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <200812121723.mBCHNtfh013625@sac.sfbay.sun.com> <4942B554.2090300@sun.com> <49469629.4070809@Sun.COM> <4946A228.2080607@sun.com> <1229366938.1545.11.camel@strat> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.14 (X11/20080616) Status: RO Content-Length: 1427 Sebastien Roy wrote: > On Mon, 2008-12-15 at 10:30 -0800, Garrett D'Amore wrote: > >> Chris Liu wrote: >> >>> Let me explain respectively. >>> >>> OSS - libsndfile has not much to do with OSS. It mainly focused on >>> processing data from one format to others. It does not like to deal >>> much with hardware or operating systems. The only exception may be >>> sndfile-play. Sndfile-play is one of three tiny utilities it provides, >>> which only writes audio data directly to /dev/audio (on Solaris), >>> which is standard audio device on Solaris. On SunRay sndfile-play wont >>> work properly because SunRay client uses another audio device >>> specified by $AUDIODEV. However, it is not a main purpose of libsndfile. >>> >> If this is the case, can we skip integrating sndfile-play, at least >> until it honors Sun Ray? >> > > It sounds to me more like the SunRay audio architecture is inadequate to > support 3rd party tools. Perhaps that should be fixed rather than > require audio software developers to have to add Sun-specific code to > support SunRay. > That's a much, much bigger task. And it is indeed one we are looking at doing for Boomer, because the current architecture doesn't work with the OSS apps. Basically, this is a problem of applications "assuming" that /dev/audio is always sufficient. For a situation like Sun Ray, this simply isn't the case. -- Garrett From bart.smaalders@sun.com Mon Dec 15 11:02:37 2008 Received: from newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (newsunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.245]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id mBFJ2aAu001841 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 11:02:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id mBFJ2MF5029240; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 12:02:32 -0700 (MST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0KBX00L2DM877F00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 11:02:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from zion.sfbay.sun.com ([129.146.17.75]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0KBX00C5TM86IO70@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 11:02:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from [129.146.228.109] (cyber.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.228.109]) by zion.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.2+Sun/8.14.2) with ESMTP id mBFJ2Ubb004527; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 19:02:30 +0000 (GMT) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 11:02:30 -0800 From: Bart Smaalders Subject: Re: libsndfile [PSARC/2008/767 FastTrack timeout 12/19/2008] In-reply-to: <4946A6A0.9010101@sun.com> To: "Garrett D'Amore" Cc: Sebastien Roy , Chris Liu , PSARC-ext@sun.com, Mark Carlson Message-id: <4946A9C6.7050307@Sun.COM> Organization: Sun Microsystems MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <200812121723.mBCHNtfh013625@sac.sfbay.sun.com> <4942B554.2090300@sun.com> <49469629.4070809@Sun.COM> <4946A228.2080607@sun.com> <1229366938.1545.11.camel@strat> <4946A6A0.9010101@sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.17 (X11/20081023) Status: RO Content-Length: 1805 Garrett D'Amore wrote: > Sebastien Roy wrote: >> On Mon, 2008-12-15 at 10:30 -0800, Garrett D'Amore wrote: >> >>> Chris Liu wrote: >>> >>>> Let me explain respectively. >>>> >>>> OSS - libsndfile has not much to do with OSS. It mainly focused on >>>> processing data from one format to others. It does not like to deal >>>> much with hardware or operating systems. The only exception may be >>>> sndfile-play. Sndfile-play is one of three tiny utilities it >>>> provides, which only writes audio data directly to /dev/audio (on >>>> Solaris), which is standard audio device on Solaris. On SunRay >>>> sndfile-play wont work properly because SunRay client uses another >>>> audio device specified by $AUDIODEV. However, it is not a main >>>> purpose of libsndfile. >>>> >>> If this is the case, can we skip integrating sndfile-play, at least >>> until it honors Sun Ray? >>> >> >> It sounds to me more like the SunRay audio architecture is inadequate to >> support 3rd party tools. Perhaps that should be fixed rather than >> require audio software developers to have to add Sun-specific code to >> support SunRay. >> > > That's a much, much bigger task. And it is indeed one we are looking at > doing for Boomer, because the current architecture doesn't work with the > OSS apps. > > Basically, this is a problem of applications "assuming" that /dev/audio > is always sufficient. For a situation like Sun Ray, this simply isn't > the case. Pushing device virtuallization onto the applications seems broken; the SunRay team should pursue device virtualization in Solaris more aggressively. - Bart -- Bart Smaalders Solaris Kernel Performance barts@cyber.eng.sun.com http://blogs.sun.com/barts "You will contribute more with mercurial than with thunderbird." From gdamore@sun.com Mon Dec 15 11:03:19 2008 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id mBFJ3JZP001853 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 11:03:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id mBFJ3GZQ020540 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-ext@sun.com>; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 11:03:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0KBX0050RM9I8P00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@Sun.COM); Mon, 15 Dec 2008 11:03:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from sca-es-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.43.133]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0KBX00J0OM9H3HD0@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@Sun.COM); Mon, 15 Dec 2008 11:03:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from fe-sfbay-10.sun.com ([192.18.43.129]) by sca-es-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id mBFJ3HQR024998 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 11:03:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from conversion-daemon.fe-sfbay-10.sun.com by fe-sfbay-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0KBX00701M5EBL00@fe-sfbay-10.sun.com> (original mail from gdamore@sun.com) for PSARC-ext@Sun.COM (ORCPT PSARC-ext@Sun.COM); Mon, 15 Dec 2008 11:03:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.7.251.172] by fe-sfbay-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0KBX00J94M9B4I40@fe-sfbay-10.sun.com>; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 11:03:11 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 10:55:30 -0800 From: "Garrett D'Amore" Subject: Re: libsndfile [PSARC/2008/767 FastTrack timeout 12/19/2008] In-reply-to: <4946A6A0.9010101@sun.com> Sender: Garrett.Damore@sun.com To: Sebastien Roy Cc: Chris Liu , PSARC-ext@sun.com, Mark Carlson Message-id: <4946A822.2000708@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <200812121723.mBCHNtfh013625@sac.sfbay.sun.com> <4942B554.2090300@sun.com> <49469629.4070809@Sun.COM> <4946A228.2080607@sun.com> <1229366938.1545.11.camel@strat> <4946A6A0.9010101@sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.14 (X11/20080616) Status: RO Content-Length: 1846 Garrett D'Amore wrote: > Sebastien Roy wrote: >> On Mon, 2008-12-15 at 10:30 -0800, Garrett D'Amore wrote: >> >>> Chris Liu wrote: >>> >>>> Let me explain respectively. >>>> >>>> OSS - libsndfile has not much to do with OSS. It mainly focused on >>>> processing data from one format to others. It does not like to deal >>>> much with hardware or operating systems. The only exception may be >>>> sndfile-play. Sndfile-play is one of three tiny utilities it >>>> provides, which only writes audio data directly to /dev/audio (on >>>> Solaris), which is standard audio device on Solaris. On SunRay >>>> sndfile-play wont work properly because SunRay client uses another >>>> audio device specified by $AUDIODEV. However, it is not a main >>>> purpose of libsndfile. >>>> >>> If this is the case, can we skip integrating sndfile-play, at least >>> until it honors Sun Ray? >>> >> >> It sounds to me more like the SunRay audio architecture is inadequate to >> support 3rd party tools. Perhaps that should be fixed rather than >> require audio software developers to have to add Sun-specific code to >> support SunRay. >> > > That's a much, much bigger task. And it is indeed one we are looking > at doing for Boomer, because the current architecture doesn't work > with the OSS apps. > > Basically, this is a problem of applications "assuming" that > /dev/audio is always sufficient. For a situation like Sun Ray, this > simply isn't the case. By the way, use of $AUDIODEV has been a standard technique since at least Sun Ray first shipped. Its not new on Solaris. In situations where there is more than one audio device, /dev/audio won't necessarily point to the right device anyway. The fact that the 3rd party app can't use a different audio device is a severe shortcoming in the app. -- Garrett From Mike.Oliver@sun.com Mon Dec 15 11:07:04 2008 Received: from newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (newsunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.245]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id mBFJ73XG001933 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 11:07:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id mBFJ6lcu032199 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-ext@sun.com>; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 12:07:03 -0700 (MST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0KBX00L2LMFPPV00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Mon, 15 Dec 2008 11:07:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from sca-es-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.43.133]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0KBX00CR6MFOIV50@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Mon, 15 Dec 2008 11:07:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from fe-sfbay-09.sun.com ([192.18.43.129]) by sca-es-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id mBFJ709l025609 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 11:07:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from conversion-daemon.fe-sfbay-09.sun.com by fe-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0KBX00801L4CV400@fe-sfbay-09.sun.com> (original mail from Mike.Oliver@Sun.COM) for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Mon, 15 Dec 2008 11:06:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from sunray4.SFBay.Sun.COM ([10.6.102.104]) by fe-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0KBX0061EMFGBG40@fe-sfbay-09.sun.com>; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 11:06:53 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 11:06:52 -0800 From: Mike Oliver Subject: Re: libsndfile [PSARC/2008/767 FastTrack timeout 12/19/2008] In-reply-to: <1229366938.1545.11.camel@strat> Sender: Mike.Oliver@sun.com To: Sebastien Roy Cc: "Garrett D'Amore" , Chris Liu , PSARC-ext@sun.com, Mark Carlson Message-id: <4946AACC.6020000@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <200812121723.mBCHNtfh013625@sac.sfbay.sun.com> <4942B554.2090300@sun.com> <49469629.4070809@Sun.COM> <4946A228.2080607@sun.com> <1229366938.1545.11.camel@strat> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.19pre (X11/20081201) Status: RO Content-Length: 1457 Sebastien Roy wrote: > On Mon, 2008-12-15 at 10:30 -0800, Garrett D'Amore wrote: >> Chris Liu wrote: >>> Let me explain respectively. >>> >>> OSS - libsndfile has not much to do with OSS. It mainly focused on >>> processing data from one format to others. It does not like to deal >>> much with hardware or operating systems. The only exception may be >>> sndfile-play. Sndfile-play is one of three tiny utilities it provides, >>> which only writes audio data directly to /dev/audio (on Solaris), >>> which is standard audio device on Solaris. On SunRay sndfile-play wont >>> work properly because SunRay client uses another audio device >>> specified by $AUDIODEV. However, it is not a main purpose of libsndfile. >> If this is the case, can we skip integrating sndfile-play, at least >> until it honors Sun Ray? > > It sounds to me more like the SunRay audio architecture is inadequate to > support 3rd party tools. Perhaps that should be fixed rather than > require audio software developers to have to add Sun-specific code to > support SunRay. $AUDIODEV is not a Sun Ray invention. $AUDIODEV is part of the regular Solaris audio infrastructure. See 'man audio'. Any audio app on Solaris should support the designation of an alternative audio device via $AUDIODEV. (And, in case anyone decides to do the right thing and make this change, note that $AUDIODEV implies alternative data *and* control devices.) Mike. -- mike.oliver@sun.com From Nicolas.Williams@sun.com Mon Dec 15 11:11:31 2008 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id mBFJBVYE002034 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 11:11:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id mBFJBQ1I026850; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 11:11:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0KBX00M1TMN39C00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 11:11:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM ([129.153.128.104]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0KBX00CE4MN2IM70@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 11:11:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.14.3+Sun/8.14.3) with ESMTP id mBFJAVpX009667; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 13:10:31 -0600 (CST) Received: (from nw141292@localhost) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.14.3+Sun/8.14.3/Submit) id mBFJAVMa009666; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 13:10:31 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 13:10:31 -0600 From: Nicolas Williams Subject: Re: libsndfile [PSARC/2008/767 FastTrack timeout 12/19/2008] In-reply-to: <4946A9C6.7050307@Sun.COM> To: Bart Smaalders Cc: "Garrett D'Amore" , Sebastien Roy , Chris Liu , PSARC-ext@sun.com, Mark Carlson Message-id: <20081215191031.GZ2463@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <200812121723.mBCHNtfh013625@sac.sfbay.sun.com> <4942B554.2090300@sun.com> <49469629.4070809@Sun.COM> <4946A228.2080607@sun.com> <1229366938.1545.11.camel@strat> <4946A6A0.9010101@sun.com> <4946A9C6.7050307@Sun.COM> X-Authentication-warning: binky.Central.Sun.COM: nw141292 set sender to Nicolas.Williams@sun.com using -f User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.7i Status: RO Content-Length: 1549 On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 11:02:30AM -0800, Bart Smaalders wrote: > Garrett D'Amore wrote: > >Sebastien Roy wrote: > >>It sounds to me more like the SunRay audio architecture is inadequate to > >>support 3rd party tools. Perhaps that should be fixed rather than > >>require audio software developers to have to add Sun-specific code to > >>support SunRay. Still, the proposed 3-line application fix is sustainable for now and should not be rejected unless there's a desire to force virtualization: > >That's a much, much bigger task. And it is indeed one we are looking at > >doing for Boomer, because the current architecture doesn't work with the > >OSS apps. > > > >Basically, this is a problem of applications "assuming" that /dev/audio > >is always sufficient. For a situation like Sun Ray, this simply isn't > >the case. > > Pushing device virtuallization onto the applications seems broken; the > SunRay team should pursue device virtualization in Solaris more > aggressively. +1 And not only for SunRay, but also for Virtual Consoles, as well as any form of multiple seats that might be supported besides SunRay. I.e., /dev/audio should be a pseudo-device in the mold of /dev/tty, and there should be an "acquired default audio device" equivalent of "acquired tty." And in the case of Virtual Consoles the audio device should mute sound I/O (not just output, but inputs too!) for applications not in the currently active console (interactions with console locking need some thought too). Yes, I know: "not this case." Nico -- From bart.smaalders@Sun.COM Mon Dec 15 11:12:22 2008 Received: from newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (newsunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.245]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id mBFJCLbY002091 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 11:12:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id mBFJCDGx036457; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 12:12:18 -0700 (MST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0KBX0050ZMOGO600@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 11:12:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from zion.sfbay.sun.com ([129.146.17.75]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0KBX00JSPMOG3SC0@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 11:12:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from [129.146.228.109] (cyber.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.228.109]) by zion.sfbay.sun.com (8.14.2+Sun/8.14.2) with ESMTP id mBFJCFZZ004906; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 19:12:15 +0000 (GMT) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 11:12:15 -0800 From: Bart Smaalders Subject: Re: libsndfile [PSARC/2008/767 FastTrack timeout 12/19/2008] In-reply-to: <4946A822.2000708@sun.com> To: "Garrett D'Amore" Cc: Sebastien Roy , Chris Liu , PSARC-ext@Sun.COM, Mark Carlson Message-id: <4946AC0F.3030207@Sun.COM> Organization: Sun Microsystems MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <200812121723.mBCHNtfh013625@sac.sfbay.sun.com> <4942B554.2090300@sun.com> <49469629.4070809@Sun.COM> <4946A228.2080607@sun.com> <1229366938.1545.11.camel@strat> <4946A6A0.9010101@sun.com> <4946A822.2000708@sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.17 (X11/20081023) Status: RO Content-Length: 996 Garrett D'Amore wrote: > > By the way, use of $AUDIODEV has been a standard technique since at > least Sun Ray first shipped. Its not new on Solaris. > > In situations where there is more than one audio device, /dev/audio > won't necessarily point to the right device anyway. The fact that the > 3rd party app can't use a different audio device is a severe shortcoming > in the app. > > -- Garrett > Picking output device selection at open time seems quaint, given our in-kernel mixer architecture. For example, how does virtual terminal support work with /dev/audio? If I plug in a USB headset, do I need to restart all applications using audio to redirect the sound to the headset? Why not just think of /dev/audio as a virtual I/O device, and map it to real hardware, network connections, dynamically? - Bart -- Bart Smaalders Solaris Kernel Performance barts@cyber.eng.sun.com http://blogs.sun.com/barts "You will contribute more with mercurial than with thunderbird." From Nicolas.Williams@sun.com Mon Dec 15 11:13:53 2008 Received: from sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id mBFJDqIF002130 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 11:13:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id mBFJDeLQ022722; Tue, 16 Dec 2008 03:13:48 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0KBX0072LMQY8S00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 12:13:46 -0700 (MST) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM ([129.153.128.104]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0KBX00JMOMQXR480@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 12:13:45 -0700 (MST) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.14.3+Sun/8.14.3) with ESMTP id mBFJCoDH009674; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 13:12:50 -0600 (CST) Received: (from nw141292@localhost) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.14.3+Sun/8.14.3/Submit) id mBFJCoo0009673; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 13:12:50 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 13:12:50 -0600 From: Nicolas Williams Subject: Re: libsndfile [PSARC/2008/767 FastTrack timeout 12/19/2008] In-reply-to: <4946A822.2000708@sun.com> To: "Garrett D'Amore" Cc: Sebastien Roy , Chris Liu , PSARC-ext@sun.com, Mark Carlson Message-id: <20081215191249.GA2463@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <200812121723.mBCHNtfh013625@sac.sfbay.sun.com> <4942B554.2090300@sun.com> <49469629.4070809@Sun.COM> <4946A228.2080607@sun.com> <1229366938.1545.11.camel@strat> <4946A6A0.9010101@sun.com> <4946A822.2000708@sun.com> X-Authentication-warning: binky.Central.Sun.COM: nw141292 set sender to Nicolas.Williams@sun.com using -f User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.7i Status: RO Content-Length: 592 On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 10:55:30AM -0800, Garrett D'Amore wrote: > By the way, use of $AUDIODEV has been a standard technique since at > least Sun Ray first shipped. Its not new on Solaris. > > In situations where there is more than one audio device, /dev/audio > won't necessarily point to the right device anyway. The fact that the > 3rd party app can't use a different audio device is a severe shortcoming > in the app. Methinks familiarity rule we're dealing with lately says otherwise. /dev/audio should be virtualized. It will save us [much?] trouble down the line. Nico -- From carlsonj@phorcys.east.sun.com Mon Dec 15 11:14:15 2008 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id mBFJEEnc002146 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 11:14:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id mBFJE2vo003122; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 11:14:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0KBX0070PMRM9900@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 12:14:10 -0700 (MST) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com ([129.148.174.143]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0KBX00JA9MRKR690@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 12:14:09 -0700 (MST) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.3+Sun/8.14.3) with ESMTP id mBFJE7Bp005916; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 14:14:07 -0500 (EST) Received: (from carlsonj@localhost) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.3+Sun/8.14.3/Submit) id mBFJE7WQ005913; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 14:14:07 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 14:14:07 -0500 From: James Carlson Subject: Re: libsndfile [PSARC/2008/767 FastTrack timeout 12/19/2008] In-reply-to: <4946A9C6.7050307@Sun.COM> To: Bart Smaalders Cc: "Garrett D'Amore" , Sebastien Roy , Chris Liu , PSARC-ext@sun.com, Mark Carlson Message-id: <18758.44159.854283.7170@gargle.gargle.HOWL> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: VM 7.01 under Emacs 21.3.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <200812121723.mBCHNtfh013625@sac.sfbay.sun.com> <4942B554.2090300@sun.com> <49469629.4070809@Sun.COM> <4946A228.2080607@sun.com> <1229366938.1545.11.camel@strat> <4946A6A0.9010101@sun.com> <4946A9C6.7050307@Sun.COM> Status: RO Content-Length: 1281 Bart Smaalders writes: > Garrett D'Amore wrote: > > Basically, this is a problem of applications "assuming" that /dev/audio > > is always sufficient. For a situation like Sun Ray, this simply isn't > > the case. > > Pushing device virtuallization onto the applications seems broken; the > SunRay team should pursue device virtualization in Solaris more > aggressively. Architecturally I agree completely, but since it's like this now and the fix is quite trivial, it's hard to argue too strongly against applying a two-or-three-line fix to be compatible with at least "old broken Sun Ray." I think a bigger problem here is that (as far as I know) Sun Ray doesn't actively participate in the architectural review process, so there's no obvious way for us to bring about any changes, or even to have much of a way of knowing when conflicts might occur except by "accident." (That's about the only solid argument I could muster against the fix previously suggested, and it ignores the fact that we ought not be punishing users for our internal issues.) -- James Carlson, Solaris Networking Sun Microsystems / 35 Network Drive 71.232W Vox +1 781 442 2084 MS UBUR02-212 / Burlington MA 01803-2757 42.496N Fax +1 781 442 1677 From swalker@opensolaris.org Mon Dec 15 11:23:33 2008 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id mBFJNXsx002614 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 11:23:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id mBFJNTth008386; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 11:23:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0KBX00809N764H00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 12:23:30 -0700 (MST) Received: from jurassic.eng.sun.com ([129.146.104.31]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0KBX00JIAN75R390@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 12:23:29 -0700 (MST) Received: from [10.7.250.77] (punchin-client-10-7-250-77.SFBay.Sun.COM [10.7.250.77]) by jurassic.eng.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id mBFJNRNO164420 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 15 Dec 2008 11:23:28 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 13:23:27 -0600 From: Shawn Walker Subject: Re: libsndfile [PSARC/2008/767 FastTrack timeout 12/19/2008] In-reply-to: <4946A593.1030401@sun.com> To: Alan Coopersmith Cc: "Garrett D'Amore" , PSARC-ext@sun.com, Mark Carlson , Chris Liu Message-id: <4946AEAF.1@opensolaris.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <200812121723.mBCHNtfh013625@sac.sfbay.sun.com> <4942B554.2090300@sun.com> <49469629.4070809@Sun.COM> <4946A228.2080607@sun.com> <4946A593.1030401@sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.17 (X11/20081023) Status: RO Content-Length: 1247 Alan Coopersmith wrote: > > Garrett D'Amore wrote: >> Chris Liu wrote: >>> Let me explain respectively. >>> >>> OSS - libsndfile has not much to do with OSS. It mainly focused on >>> processing data from one format to others. It does not like to deal >>> much with hardware or operating systems. The only exception may be >>> sndfile-play. Sndfile-play is one of three tiny utilities it provides, >>> which only writes audio data directly to /dev/audio (on Solaris), >>> which is standard audio device on Solaris. On SunRay sndfile-play wont >>> work properly because SunRay client uses another audio device >>> specified by $AUDIODEV. However, it is not a main purpose of libsndfile. >> If this is the case, can we skip integrating sndfile-play, at least >> until it honors Sun Ray? > > That should be a 5 line change to the source, hardly much of a burden - > just changing open("/dev/audio") to checking getenv("AUDIODEV") and using > that if not NULL, otherwise using "/dev/audio". > > Why not just fix it? To further complicate this, the OSS API reference recommends checking OSS_AUDIODEV and OSS_MIXERDEV. That makes determining changes difficult at best. -- Shawn Walker [1] http://manuals.opensound.com/developer/oss_devices.html From Sebastien.Roy@sun.com Mon Dec 15 11:44:19 2008 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id mBFJiJuj005658 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 11:44:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id mBFJiIuP020588 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-ext@sun.com>; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 11:44:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0KBX0093JO5TXJ00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Mon, 15 Dec 2008 12:44:17 -0700 (MST) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com ([192.18.98.36]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0KBX00J55O5SQSA0@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Mon, 15 Dec 2008 12:44:16 -0700 (MST) Received: from fe-amer-10.sun.com ([192.18.109.80]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id mBFJiGie008389 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 19:44:16 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.mail-amer.sun.com by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0KBX00J01NTTRV00@mail-amer.sun.com> (original mail from Sebastien.Roy@Sun.COM) for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Mon, 15 Dec 2008 12:44:16 -0700 (MST) Received: from [129.148.174.103] by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0KBX00JSXO5RDY20@mail-amer.sun.com>; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 12:44:16 -0700 (MST) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 14:44:08 -0500 From: Sebastien Roy Subject: Re: libsndfile [PSARC/2008/767 FastTrack timeout 12/19/2008] In-reply-to: <4946AACC.6020000@sun.com> Sender: Sebastien.Roy@sun.com To: Mike Oliver Cc: PSARC-ext@sun.com, Mark Carlson , "Garrett D'Amore" , Chris Liu Message-id: <1229370248.1545.54.camel@strat> Organization: Sun Microsystems MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.24.0 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <200812121723.mBCHNtfh013625@sac.sfbay.sun.com> <4942B554.2090300@sun.com> <49469629.4070809@Sun.COM> <4946A228.2080607@sun.com> <1229366938.1545.11.camel@strat> <4946AACC.6020000@sun.com> Status: RO Content-Length: 1415 On Mon, 2008-12-15 at 11:06 -0800, Mike Oliver wrote: > Sebastien Roy wrote: > > It sounds to me more like the SunRay audio architecture is inadequate to > > support 3rd party tools. Perhaps that should be fixed rather than > > require audio software developers to have to add Sun-specific code to > > support SunRay. > > $AUDIODEV is not a Sun Ray invention. $AUDIODEV is part of the regular > Solaris audio infrastructure. See 'man audio'. Any audio app on > Solaris should support the designation of an alternative audio device > via $AUDIODEV. (And, in case anyone decides to do the right thing and > make this change, note that $AUDIODEV implies alternative data *and* > control devices.) Granted that it's not a SunRay invention, its architecture is broken as it relates to code portability, virtualization, and modern technology (see Bart's comment regarding switching output devices on the fly, which other OSs such as MacOS X seem to handle just fine). Anyway, that's not necessarily this case. If it's trivial to handle AUDIODEV in the app being introduced by this case, then there's no reason not to patch the code to support it. My comment was a more general, in coming to a realization that $AUDIODEV isn't portable (and has other problems), and the fact that SunRay relies on it is a problem. Perhaps this discussion should be continued in the context of the 2008/318 Boomer case. -Seb From gdamore@sun.com Mon Dec 15 11:58:23 2008 Received: from newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (newsunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.245]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id mBFJwNNu006614 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 11:58:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id mBFJwMu4005849 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-ext@sun.com>; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 12:58:23 -0700 (MST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0KBX0040FOTAWZ00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Mon, 15 Dec 2008 11:58:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from sca-es-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.43.133]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0KBX00CYIOT9IK90@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Mon, 15 Dec 2008 11:58:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from fe-sfbay-10.sun.com ([192.18.43.129]) by sca-es-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id mBFJwKvw003212 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 11:58:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from conversion-daemon.fe-sfbay-10.sun.com by fe-sfbay-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0KBX00B01L2TWF00@fe-sfbay-10.sun.com> (original mail from gdamore@sun.com) for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Mon, 15 Dec 2008 11:58:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.7.251.172] by fe-sfbay-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0KBX00I0ZOSUJFE0@fe-sfbay-10.sun.com>; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 11:58:07 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 11:50:25 -0800 From: "Garrett D'Amore" Subject: Re: libsndfile [PSARC/2008/767 FastTrack timeout 12/19/2008] In-reply-to: <20081215191031.GZ2463@Sun.COM> Sender: Garrett.Damore@sun.com To: Nicolas Williams Cc: Bart Smaalders , Sebastien Roy , Chris Liu , PSARC-ext@sun.com, Mark Carlson Message-id: <4946B501.1000607@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <200812121723.mBCHNtfh013625@sac.sfbay.sun.com> <4942B554.2090300@sun.com> <49469629.4070809@Sun.COM> <4946A228.2080607@sun.com> <1229366938.1545.11.camel@strat> <4946A6A0.9010101@sun.com> <4946A9C6.7050307@Sun.COM> <20081215191031.GZ2463@Sun.COM> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.14 (X11/20080616) Status: RO Content-Length: 2034 Nicolas Williams wrote: > On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 11:02:30AM -0800, Bart Smaalders wrote: > >> Garrett D'Amore wrote: >> >>> Sebastien Roy wrote: >>> >>>> It sounds to me more like the SunRay audio architecture is inadequate to >>>> support 3rd party tools. Perhaps that should be fixed rather than >>>> require audio software developers to have to add Sun-specific code to >>>> support SunRay. >>>> > > Still, the proposed 3-line application fix is sustainable for now and > should not be rejected unless there's a desire to force virtualization: > > >>> That's a much, much bigger task. And it is indeed one we are looking at >>> doing for Boomer, because the current architecture doesn't work with the >>> OSS apps. >>> >>> Basically, this is a problem of applications "assuming" that /dev/audio >>> is always sufficient. For a situation like Sun Ray, this simply isn't >>> the case. >>> >> Pushing device virtuallization onto the applications seems broken; the >> SunRay team should pursue device virtualization in Solaris more >> aggressively. >> > > +1 > > And not only for SunRay, but also for Virtual Consoles, as well as any > form of multiple seats that might be supported besides SunRay. > > I.e., /dev/audio should be a pseudo-device in the mold of /dev/tty, and > there should be an "acquired default audio device" equivalent of > "acquired tty." > > And in the case of Virtual Consoles the audio device should mute sound > I/O (not just output, but inputs too!) for applications not in the > currently active console (interactions with console locking need some > thought too). > > Yes, I know: "not this case." > And we're looking at this kind of virtualization for Boomer phase 2. I need to start working on case materials, because we're going to need some underpinnings in the kernel to track Sun Ray sessions... (Another ID that is inherited across fork(), sort of like a process group...) More on that later. In a new case. :-) -- Garrett > Nico > From gdamore@sun.com Mon Dec 15 11:59:04 2008 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id mBFJx3R5006687 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 11:59:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id mBFJx1W0005969 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-ext@sun.com>; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 19:59:02 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0KBX0050LOUD0M00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Mon, 15 Dec 2008 11:59:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from sca-es-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.43.133]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0KBX00C4AOUDIRB0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Mon, 15 Dec 2008 11:59:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from fe-sfbay-09.sun.com ([192.18.43.129]) by sca-es-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id mBFJx1No003300 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 11:59:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from conversion-daemon.fe-sfbay-09.sun.com by fe-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0KBX00I01OQ1OS00@fe-sfbay-09.sun.com> (original mail from gdamore@sun.com) for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Mon, 15 Dec 2008 11:59:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.7.251.172] by fe-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0KBX006RYOU56BB0@fe-sfbay-09.sun.com>; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 11:58:54 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 11:51:12 -0800 From: "Garrett D'Amore" Subject: Re: libsndfile [PSARC/2008/767 FastTrack timeout 12/19/2008] In-reply-to: <4946AC0F.3030207@Sun.COM> Sender: Garrett.Damore@sun.com To: Bart Smaalders Cc: Sebastien Roy , Chris Liu , PSARC-ext@sun.com, Mark Carlson Message-id: <4946B530.30909@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <200812121723.mBCHNtfh013625@sac.sfbay.sun.com> <4942B554.2090300@sun.com> <49469629.4070809@Sun.COM> <4946A228.2080607@sun.com> <1229366938.1545.11.camel@strat> <4946A6A0.9010101@sun.com> <4946A822.2000708@sun.com> <4946AC0F.3030207@Sun.COM> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.14 (X11/20080616) Status: RO Content-Length: 1005 Bart Smaalders wrote: > Garrett D'Amore wrote: >> >> By the way, use of $AUDIODEV has been a standard technique since at >> least Sun Ray first shipped. Its not new on Solaris. >> >> In situations where there is more than one audio device, /dev/audio >> won't necessarily point to the right device anyway. The fact that >> the 3rd party app can't use a different audio device is a severe >> shortcoming in the app. >> >> -- Garrett >> > > Picking output device selection at open time seems quaint, given our > in-kernel mixer architecture. For example, how does virtual terminal > support work with /dev/audio? If I plug in a USB headset, do I need to > restart all applications using audio to redirect the sound to the > headset? Today? Yes. Again, we're looking at fixes for this, but we don't have it today. > > Why not just think of /dev/audio as a virtual I/O device, and map > it to real hardware, network connections, dynamically? Yes. Not this case. -- Garrett > > - Bart > From Nicolas.Williams@sun.com Mon Dec 15 12:00:17 2008 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id mBFK0HNp008545 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 12:00:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id mBFK09LS025464; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 12:00:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0KBX0082TOWDGL00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 12:00:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM ([129.153.128.104]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0KBX007CXOWBH710@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 12:00:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.14.3+Sun/8.14.3) with ESMTP id mBFJxGQG009711; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 13:59:16 -0600 (CST) Received: (from nw141292@localhost) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.14.3+Sun/8.14.3/Submit) id mBFJxGeM009710; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 13:59:16 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 13:59:16 -0600 From: Nicolas Williams Subject: Re: libsndfile [PSARC/2008/767 FastTrack timeout 12/19/2008] In-reply-to: <4946B501.1000607@sun.com> To: "Garrett D'Amore" Cc: Bart Smaalders , Sebastien Roy , Chris Liu , PSARC-ext@sun.com, Mark Carlson Message-id: <20081215195916.GE2463@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <200812121723.mBCHNtfh013625@sac.sfbay.sun.com> <4942B554.2090300@sun.com> <49469629.4070809@Sun.COM> <4946A228.2080607@sun.com> <1229366938.1545.11.camel@strat> <4946A6A0.9010101@sun.com> <4946A9C6.7050307@Sun.COM> <20081215191031.GZ2463@Sun.COM> <4946B501.1000607@sun.com> X-Authentication-warning: binky.Central.Sun.COM: nw141292 set sender to Nicolas.Williams@sun.com using -f User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.7i Status: RO Content-Length: 809 On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 11:50:25AM -0800, Garrett D'Amore wrote: > Nicolas Williams wrote: > >I.e., /dev/audio should be a pseudo-device in the mold of /dev/tty, and > >there should be an "acquired default audio device" equivalent of > >"acquired tty." > > > >... > > > >Yes, I know: "not this case." > > > > And we're looking at this kind of virtualization for Boomer phase 2. I > need to start working on case materials, because we're going to need > some underpinnings in the kernel to track Sun Ray sessions... (Another > ID that is inherited across fork(), sort of like a process group...) > More on that later. In a new case. :-) Wait! This would not be the only case needing such a thing. We've needed other sorts of session-based process grouping before. Let's talk off-line. Nico -- From gdamore@sun.com Mon Dec 15 12:02:56 2008 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id mBFK2uZt027976 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 12:02:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id mBFK2sld026878 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-ext@sun.com>; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 12:02:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0KBX0050VP0UHC00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Mon, 15 Dec 2008 12:02:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from sca-es-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.43.132]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0KBX00CIAP0UIRB0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Mon, 15 Dec 2008 12:02:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from fe-sfbay-09.sun.com ([192.18.43.129]) by sca-es-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id mBFK2sqg026412 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 12:02:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from conversion-daemon.fe-sfbay-09.sun.com by fe-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0KBX00I01OQ1OS00@fe-sfbay-09.sun.com> (original mail from gdamore@sun.com) for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Mon, 15 Dec 2008 12:02:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.7.251.172] by fe-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0KBX0060AP0D6BE0@fe-sfbay-09.sun.com>; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 12:02:38 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 11:54:56 -0800 From: "Garrett D'Amore" Subject: Re: libsndfile [PSARC/2008/767 FastTrack timeout 12/19/2008] In-reply-to: <1229370248.1545.54.camel@strat> Sender: Garrett.Damore@sun.com To: Sebastien Roy Cc: Mike Oliver , PSARC-ext@sun.com, Mark Carlson , Chris Liu Message-id: <4946B610.70203@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <200812121723.mBCHNtfh013625@sac.sfbay.sun.com> <4942B554.2090300@sun.com> <49469629.4070809@Sun.COM> <4946A228.2080607@sun.com> <1229366938.1545.11.camel@strat> <4946AACC.6020000@sun.com> <1229370248.1545.54.camel@strat> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.14 (X11/20080616) Status: RO Content-Length: 281 > Perhaps this discussion should be continued in the context of the > 2008/318 Boomer case. > Yes. However, let me say up front, Boomer phase 1 is *not* going to fix this. A follow up phase is in the planning stages to address it, however. -- Garrett > -Seb > > > From gdamore@sun.com Mon Dec 15 12:31:34 2008 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id mBFKVYJF023907 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 12:31:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id mBFKVXBZ019769 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-ext@sun.com>; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 12:31:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0KBX00A01QCJ2M00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Mon, 15 Dec 2008 12:31:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from sca-es-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.43.133]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0KBX007S1QCJH830@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Mon, 15 Dec 2008 12:31:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from fe-sfbay-09.sun.com ([192.18.43.129]) by sca-es-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id mBFKVV9R007471 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 12:31:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from conversion-daemon.fe-sfbay-09.sun.com by fe-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0KBX00801Q560F00@fe-sfbay-09.sun.com> (original mail from gdamore@sun.com) for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Mon, 15 Dec 2008 12:31:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.7.251.172] by fe-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0KBX003NTQCIQO90@fe-sfbay-09.sun.com>; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 12:31:30 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 12:23:49 -0800 From: "Garrett D'Amore" Subject: Re: libsndfile [PSARC/2008/767 FastTrack timeout 12/19/2008] In-reply-to: <20081215195916.GE2463@Sun.COM> Sender: Garrett.Damore@sun.com To: Nicolas Williams Cc: Bart Smaalders , Sebastien Roy , Chris Liu , PSARC-ext@sun.com, Mark Carlson Message-id: <4946BCD5.8040305@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <200812121723.mBCHNtfh013625@sac.sfbay.sun.com> <4942B554.2090300@sun.com> <49469629.4070809@Sun.COM> <4946A228.2080607@sun.com> <1229366938.1545.11.camel@strat> <4946A6A0.9010101@sun.com> <4946A9C6.7050307@Sun.COM> <20081215191031.GZ2463@Sun.COM> <4946B501.1000607@sun.com> <20081215195916.GE2463@Sun.COM> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.14 (X11/20080616) Status: RO Content-Length: 1057 Nicolas Williams wrote: > On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 11:50:25AM -0800, Garrett D'Amore wrote: > >> Nicolas Williams wrote: >> >>> I.e., /dev/audio should be a pseudo-device in the mold of /dev/tty, and >>> there should be an "acquired default audio device" equivalent of >>> "acquired tty." >>> >>> ... >>> >>> Yes, I know: "not this case." >>> >>> >> And we're looking at this kind of virtualization for Boomer phase 2. I >> need to start working on case materials, because we're going to need >> some underpinnings in the kernel to track Sun Ray sessions... (Another >> ID that is inherited across fork(), sort of like a process group...) >> More on that later. In a new case. :-) >> > > Wait! This would not be the only case needing such a thing. > > We've needed other sorts of session-based process grouping before. > > Let's talk off-line. > Okay. I'm not ready to write anything up yet, but I agree that we need to come up with something that is useful beyond just this one application. -- Garrett > Nico > From casper@holland.sun.com Mon Dec 15 13:21:27 2008 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id mBFLLRLm026053 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 13:21:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id mBFLLJTi020233; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 13:21:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0KBX00J11SNQ4Z00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 14:21:26 -0700 (MST) Received: from dm-holland-02.uk.sun.com ([129.156.101.225]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0KBX00GRBSNO8L20@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 14:21:25 -0700 (MST) Received: from holland (room101.Holland.Sun.COM [10.16.117.40]) by dm-holland-02.uk.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id mBFLLHHA061315; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 21:21:17 +0000 (GMT) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 22:21:17 +0100 From: Casper.Dik@sun.com Subject: Re: libsndfile [PSARC/2008/767 FastTrack timeout 12/19/2008] In-reply-to: <4946AC0F.3030207@Sun.COM> Sender: casper@holland.sun.com To: Bart Smaalders Cc: "Garrett D'Amore" , Sebastien Roy , Chris Liu , PSARC-ext@sun.com, Mark Carlson Message-id: <200812152121.mBFLLHHA061315@dm-holland-02.uk.sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <200812121723.mBCHNtfh013625@sac.sfbay.sun.com> <4942B554.2090300@sun.com> <49469629.4070809@Sun.COM> <4946A228.2080607@sun.com> <1229366938.1545.11.camel@strat> <4946A6A0.9010101@sun.com> <4946A822.2000708@sun.com> <4946AC0F.3030207@Sun.COM> Status: RO Content-Length: 1180 >Garrett D'Amore wrote: >> >> By the way, use of $AUDIODEV has been a standard technique since at >> least Sun Ray first shipped. Its not new on Solaris. >> >> In situations where there is more than one audio device, /dev/audio >> won't necessarily point to the right device anyway. The fact that the >> 3rd party app can't use a different audio device is a severe shortcoming >> in the app. >> >> -- Garrett >> > >Picking output device selection at open time seems quaint, given our >in-kernel mixer architecture. For example, how does virtual terminal >support work with /dev/audio? If I plug in a USB headset, do I need to >restart all applications using audio to redirect the sound to the >headset? > >Why not just think of /dev/audio as a virtual I/O device, and map >it to real hardware, network connections, dynamically? As long as we don't have a "session" which can be nicely grouped, it makes sense to make all $AUDIODEVs virtual, but they should not be all called /dev/audio. If we want to virtualize /dev/audio (the device itself), then I would like to see some mechanism which allows a device to distinguish between different "sessions". Casper From Nicolas.Williams@Sun.COM Mon Dec 15 13:44:56 2008 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id mBFLitV5026428 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 13:44:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id mBFLioGT005265; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 13:44:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0KBX00E0TTQQAE00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 13:44:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM ([129.153.128.104]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0KBX007WLTQPH560@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 13:44:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.14.3+Sun/8.14.3) with ESMTP id mBFLhtXC009874; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 15:43:55 -0600 (CST) Received: (from nw141292@localhost) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.14.3+Sun/8.14.3/Submit) id mBFLhtjk009873; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 15:43:55 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 15:43:55 -0600 From: Nicolas Williams Subject: Re: libsndfile [PSARC/2008/767 FastTrack timeout 12/19/2008] In-reply-to: <200812152121.mBFLLHHA061315@dm-holland-02.uk.sun.com> To: Casper.Dik@Sun.COM Cc: Bart Smaalders , "Garrett D'Amore" , Sebastien Roy , Chris Liu , PSARC-ext@Sun.COM, Mark Carlson Message-id: <20081215214354.GF2463@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <200812121723.mBCHNtfh013625@sac.sfbay.sun.com> <4942B554.2090300@sun.com> <49469629.4070809@Sun.COM> <4946A228.2080607@sun.com> <1229366938.1545.11.camel@strat> <4946A6A0.9010101@sun.com> <4946A822.2000708@sun.com> <4946AC0F.3030207@Sun.COM> <200812152121.mBFLLHHA061315@dm-holland-02.uk.sun.com> X-Authentication-warning: binky.Central.Sun.COM: nw141292 set sender to Nicolas.Williams@sun.com using -f User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.7i Status: RO Content-Length: 2595 On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 10:21:17PM +0100, Casper.Dik@Sun.COM wrote: > As long as we don't have a "session" which can be nicely grouped, it > makes sense to make all $AUDIODEVs virtual, but they should not be all > called /dev/audio. If we want to virtualize /dev/audio (the device > itself), then I would like to see some mechanism which allows a > device to distinguish between different "sessions". Solaris has lots of process groupings: SysV process groups, BSD/SysV4 session IDs (which are not really sessions), task IDs, audit session IDs, ... AFS has had a concept called PAG ("process authentication groups") which is a session ID that once set stays set until explicitly changed (i.e., survives across fork(), exec() (including of set-id programs), setuid() and friends) and which can only be set only to unique IDs or to PAGs that the user already owns. OpenAFS emulates PAGs on Solaris by encoding PAGs in two group IDs in the supplementary group list. This gets it the desired inheritance semantics (unless you setgroups() or initgroups()). AFS uses PAGs to associate client processes with Kerberos credentials. We want/need equivalent functionality in Solaris for secure NFS. This case makes it clear that we need something like controlling tty, or PAGs but for audio. Controlling ttys is probably not a good model for audio in that it'd make it to difficult to switch a process' controlling audio devices. PAGs seem to have better semantics for audio. We have a variety of process grouping semantics: - process groups and session IDs: group membership associated with ttys, existing apps may change these at any time, therefore one cannot build other kinds of sessions on top - audit session ID: not changeable once set, requires privilege, not available unless auditing is enabled (this will change, eventually) - task IDs: associated with resource controls, existing apps may change these at any time; not suitable for building other kinds of sessions on top - process contract membership: settable only for children, not changeable Generally all process grouping schemes will be unsuitable for layering multiple unrelated applications on top of them. But it seems that most of the time we'll want PAG-like inherittance semantics, which makes cred_t a good light-weight vehicle for representing membership in such groups, and for something like the NFS/CIFS clients (and OpenAFS), quite appropriate. On this theory my view is that a typed data array in cred_t plus syscall and ucred extensions to deal with it is worth exploring. Nico -- From casper@holland.sun.com Mon Dec 15 13:53:22 2008 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id mBFLrL2N027033 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 13:53:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id mBFLrCHd021276; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 21:53:19 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0KBX00E0NU4SRJ00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 13:53:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from dm-holland-02.uk.sun.com ([129.156.101.225]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0KBX007FXU4SH570@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 13:53:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from holland (room101.Holland.Sun.COM [10.16.117.40]) by dm-holland-02.uk.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id mBFLr9Xg001433; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 21:53:09 +0000 (GMT) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 22:53:09 +0100 From: Casper.Dik@sun.com Subject: Re: libsndfile [PSARC/2008/767 FastTrack timeout 12/19/2008] In-reply-to: <20081215214354.GF2463@Sun.COM> Sender: casper@holland.sun.com To: Nicolas Williams Cc: Bart Smaalders , "Garrett D'Amore" , Sebastien Roy , Chris Liu , PSARC-ext@sun.com, Mark Carlson Message-id: <200812152153.mBFLr9Xg001433@dm-holland-02.uk.sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <200812121723.mBCHNtfh013625@sac.sfbay.sun.com> <4942B554.2090300@sun.com> <49469629.4070809@Sun.COM> <4946A228.2080607@sun.com> <1229366938.1545.11.camel@strat> <4946A6A0.9010101@sun.com> <4946A822.2000708@sun.com> <4946AC0F.3030207@Sun.COM> <200812152121.mBFLLHHA061315@dm-holland-02.uk.sun.com> <20081215214354.GF2463@Sun.COM> Status: RO Content-Length: 306 >Solaris has lots of process groupings: SysV process groups, BSD/SysV4 >session IDs (which are not really sessions), task IDs, audit session >IDs, ... None of these are visible to the device layer. And yes, not this project (and sorry for not reading all my post-diner email before replying) Casper From Nicolas.Williams@sun.com Mon Dec 15 13:55:56 2008 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id mBFLttqm027170 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 13:55:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id mBFLtlX3023321; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 21:55:49 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0KBX00E0DU8ZWT00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 13:55:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM ([129.153.128.104]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0KBX007Q1U8YHA70@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 13:55:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.14.3+Sun/8.14.3) with ESMTP id mBFLsqcO009889; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 15:54:52 -0600 (CST) Received: (from nw141292@localhost) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.14.3+Sun/8.14.3/Submit) id mBFLsqBJ009888; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 15:54:52 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 15:54:52 -0600 From: Nicolas Williams Subject: Re: libsndfile [PSARC/2008/767 FastTrack timeout 12/19/2008] In-reply-to: <200812152153.mBFLr9Xg001433@dm-holland-02.uk.sun.com> To: Casper.Dik@sun.com Cc: Bart Smaalders , "Garrett D'Amore" , Sebastien Roy , Chris Liu , PSARC-ext@sun.com, Mark Carlson Message-id: <20081215215452.GH2463@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <4942B554.2090300@sun.com> <49469629.4070809@Sun.COM> <4946A228.2080607@sun.com> <1229366938.1545.11.camel@strat> <4946A6A0.9010101@sun.com> <4946A822.2000708@sun.com> <4946AC0F.3030207@Sun.COM> <200812152121.mBFLLHHA061315@dm-holland-02.uk.sun.com> <20081215214354.GF2463@Sun.COM> <200812152153.mBFLr9Xg001433@dm-holland-02.uk.sun.com> X-Authentication-warning: binky.Central.Sun.COM: nw141292 set sender to Nicolas.Williams@sun.com using -f User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.7i Status: RO Content-Length: 557 On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 10:53:09PM +0100, Casper.Dik@Sun.COM wrote: > >Solaris has lots of process groupings: SysV process groups, BSD/SysV4 > >session IDs (which are not really sessions), task IDs, audit session > >IDs, ... > > None of these are visible to the device layer. Exactly! Which is why I proposed using cred_t for representing the relevant group memberships (like AFS does, only not riding the supplementary group list). > And yes, not this project (and sorry for not reading all my post-diner > email before replying) Yup, not this case. From gdamore@sun.com Mon Dec 15 15:52:06 2008 Received: from newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (newsunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.245]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id mBFNq6XQ000157 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 15:52:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id mBFNq4Qh005849 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-ext@sun.com>; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 16:52:06 -0700 (MST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0KBX00L0TZMSYX00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@Sun.COM); Mon, 15 Dec 2008 15:52:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from sca-es-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.43.133]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0KBX00LBMZMSLM00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@Sun.COM); Mon, 15 Dec 2008 15:52:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from fe-sfbay-10.sun.com ([192.18.43.129]) by sca-es-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id mBFNq4RY001199 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 15:52:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from conversion-daemon.fe-sfbay-10.sun.com by fe-sfbay-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0KBX00I01ZDJRE00@fe-sfbay-10.sun.com> (original mail from gdamore@sun.com) for PSARC-ext@Sun.COM (ORCPT PSARC-ext@Sun.COM); Mon, 15 Dec 2008 15:52:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.7.251.172] by fe-sfbay-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0KBX0016NZMCGN00@fe-sfbay-10.sun.com>; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 15:51:49 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 15:44:05 -0800 From: "Garrett D'Amore" Subject: Re: libsndfile [PSARC/2008/767 FastTrack timeout 12/19/2008] In-reply-to: <20081215214354.GF2463@Sun.COM> Sender: Garrett.Damore@sun.com To: Nicolas Williams Cc: Casper.Dik@sun.com, Bart Smaalders , Sebastien Roy , Chris Liu , PSARC-ext@sun.com, Mark Carlson Message-id: <4946EBC5.4090602@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <200812121723.mBCHNtfh013625@sac.sfbay.sun.com> <4942B554.2090300@sun.com> <49469629.4070809@Sun.COM> <4946A228.2080607@sun.com> <1229366938.1545.11.camel@strat> <4946A6A0.9010101@sun.com> <4946A822.2000708@sun.com> <4946AC0F.3030207@Sun.COM> <200812152121.mBFLLHHA061315@dm-holland-02.uk.sun.com> <20081215214354.GF2463@Sun.COM> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.14 (X11/20080616) Status: RO Content-Length: 2999 Nicolas Williams wrote: > On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 10:21:17PM +0100, Casper.Dik@Sun.COM wrote: > >> As long as we don't have a "session" which can be nicely grouped, it >> makes sense to make all $AUDIODEVs virtual, but they should not be all >> called /dev/audio. If we want to virtualize /dev/audio (the device >> itself), then I would like to see some mechanism which allows a >> device to distinguish between different "sessions". >> > > Solaris has lots of process groupings: SysV process groups, BSD/SysV4 > session IDs (which are not really sessions), task IDs, audit session > IDs, ... > > AFS has had a concept called PAG ("process authentication groups") which > is a session ID that once set stays set until explicitly changed (i.e., > survives across fork(), exec() (including of set-id programs), setuid() > and friends) and which can only be set only to unique IDs or to PAGs > that the user already owns. > > OpenAFS emulates PAGs on Solaris by encoding PAGs in two group IDs in > the supplementary group list. This gets it the desired inheritance > semantics (unless you setgroups() or initgroups()). > > AFS uses PAGs to associate client processes with Kerberos credentials. > We want/need equivalent functionality in Solaris for secure NFS. > > This case makes it clear that we need something like controlling tty, or > PAGs but for audio. Controlling ttys is probably not a good model for > audio in that it'd make it to difficult to switch a process' controlling > audio devices. PAGs seem to have better semantics for audio. > > We have a variety of process grouping semantics: > > - process groups and session IDs: group membership associated with > ttys, existing apps may change these at any time, therefore one > cannot build other kinds of sessions on top > > - audit session ID: not changeable once set, requires privilege, not > available unless auditing is enabled (this will change, eventually) > > - task IDs: associated with resource controls, existing apps may change > these at any time; not suitable for building other kinds of sessions > on top > > - process contract membership: settable only for children, not > changeable > > Generally all process grouping schemes will be unsuitable for layering > multiple unrelated applications on top of them. But it seems that most > of the time we'll want PAG-like inherittance semantics, which makes > cred_t a good light-weight vehicle for representing membership in such > groups, and for something like the NFS/CIFS clients (and OpenAFS), quite > appropriate. On this theory my view is that a typed data array in > cred_t plus syscall and ucred extensions to deal with it is worth > exploring. > You've nailed the problem down pretty well. I'm familiar with AFS PAGs, and I always thought they were a bit strange (reusing supplementary group ids). I'll see if I can come up with a draft case describing this later this week, or possibly next. -- Garrett > Nico > From daleg@elemental.org Mon Dec 15 19:55:43 2008 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id mBG3tgHi022274 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 19:55:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id mBG3tZAk001968; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 19:55:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0KBY00F07AWP5000@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 19:55:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.98.31]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0KBY00LKRAWOLYD0@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 19:55:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay23.sun.com (relay23.sun.com [192.12.251.54] (may be forged)) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id mBG3igEb023242; Tue, 16 Dec 2008 03:55:36 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mms24es.mms.us.syntegra.com ([150.143.232.70] [150.143.232.70]) by relay23i.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-1433215; Tue, 16 Dec 2008 03:55:36 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay22.sun.com (relay22.sun.com [192.12.251.34]) by mms24es.mms.us.syntegra.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-22504508; Tue, 16 Dec 2008 03:55:36 +0000 (Z) Received: from mercury.elemental.org ([205.134.191.194] [205.134.191.194]) by relay22i.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-27954669; Tue, 16 Dec 2008 03:55:35 +0000 (Z) Received: from [192.168.1.98] (pool-71-163-37-180.washdc.fios.verizon.net [71.163.37.180]) (authenticated bits=0) by mercury.elemental.org (8.14.3/8.14.3/ELEMENTAL-4.0) with ESMTP id mBG3tZW7013316 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Mon, 15 Dec 2008 22:55:35 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 22:55:34 -0500 From: Dale Ghent Subject: Re: libsndfile [PSARC/2008/767 FastTrack timeout 12/19/2008] In-reply-to: <20081215215452.GH2463@Sun.COM> To: Nicolas Williams Cc: Casper.Dik@sun.com, "Garrett D'Amore" , PSARC-ext@sun.com, Mark Carlson , Sebastien Roy , Bart Smaalders , Chris Liu Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.929.2) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.0 (mercury.elemental.org [205.134.191.194]); Mon, 15 Dec 2008 22:55:35 -0500 (EST) X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.93.1, clamav-milter version 0.93.1 on mercury.elemental.org X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Antispam: No, score=0.0/5.0, scanned in 0.047sec at (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smf-spamd v1.3.1 - http://smfs.sf.net/ References: <4942B554.2090300@sun.com> <49469629.4070809@Sun.COM> <4946A228.2080607@sun.com> <1229366938.1545.11.camel@strat> <4946A6A0.9010101@sun.com> <4946A822.2000708@sun.com> <4946AC0F.3030207@Sun.COM> <200812152121.mBFLLHHA061315@dm-holland-02.uk.sun.com> <20081215214354.GF2463@Sun.COM> <200812152153.mBFLr9Xg001433@dm-holland-02.uk.sun.com> <20081215215452.GH2463@Sun.COM> Status: RO Content-Length: 326 On Dec 15, 2008, at 4:54 PM, Nicolas Williams wrote: > Exactly! Which is why I proposed using cred_t for representing the > relevant group memberships (like AFS does, only not riding the > supplementary group list). Huzzah! If this feature sees the light of day, I'll definitely put support for it into OpenAFS. /dale From gdamore@sun.com Tue Dec 16 00:07:34 2008 Received: from sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id mBG87XAP015257 for ; Tue, 16 Dec 2008 00:07:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id mBG87KFE007633 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-ext@sun.com>; Tue, 16 Dec 2008 16:07:33 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0KBY00B01MKKAW00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Tue, 16 Dec 2008 00:07:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from sca-es-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.43.132]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0KBY00MBGMKH03A0@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Tue, 16 Dec 2008 00:07:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from fe-sfbay-10.sun.com ([192.18.43.129]) by sca-es-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id mBG87TBB023874 for ; Tue, 16 Dec 2008 00:07:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from conversion-daemon.fe-sfbay-10.sun.com by fe-sfbay-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0KBY00A01MH5J400@fe-sfbay-10.sun.com> (original mail from gdamore@sun.com) for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Tue, 16 Dec 2008 00:07:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.7.251.172] by fe-sfbay-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0KBY00K7OMKGZA50@fe-sfbay-10.sun.com>; Tue, 16 Dec 2008 00:07:29 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 23:59:45 -0800 From: "Garrett D'Amore" Subject: Re: libsndfile [PSARC/2008/767 FastTrack timeout 12/19/2008] In-reply-to: Sender: Garrett.Damore@sun.com To: Dale Ghent Cc: Nicolas Williams , Casper.Dik@sun.com, PSARC-ext@sun.com, Mark Carlson , Sebastien Roy , Bart Smaalders , Chris Liu Message-id: <49475FF1.6040107@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <4942B554.2090300@sun.com> <49469629.4070809@Sun.COM> <4946A228.2080607@sun.com> <1229366938.1545.11.camel@strat> <4946A6A0.9010101@sun.com> <4946A822.2000708@sun.com> <4946AC0F.3030207@Sun.COM> <200812152121.mBFLLHHA061315@dm-holland-02.uk.sun.com> <20081215214354.GF2463@Sun.COM> <200812152153.mBFLr9Xg001433@dm-holland-02.uk.sun.com> <20081215215452.GH2463@Sun.COM> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.14 (X11/20080616) Status: RO Content-Length: 463 Dale Ghent wrote: > On Dec 15, 2008, at 4:54 PM, Nicolas Williams wrote: > >> Exactly! Which is why I proposed using cred_t for representing the >> relevant group memberships (like AFS does, only not riding the >> supplementary group list). > > > Huzzah! > > If this feature sees the light of day, I'll definitely put support for > it into OpenAFS. > > /dale Okay, I'll make sure I cc you on the list when I send out the draft case for this. -- Garrett From Mark.Carlson@sun.com Wed Dec 17 10:19:42 2008 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id mBHIJgeQ008734 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 2008 10:19:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id mBHIJfXt001936 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-ext@sun.com>; Wed, 17 Dec 2008 10:19:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0KC1009019KT3000@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@Sun.COM); Wed, 17 Dec 2008 11:19:41 -0700 (MST) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.98.43]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0KC100LM89KSB4A0@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@Sun.COM); Wed, 17 Dec 2008 11:19:40 -0700 (MST) Received: from fe-amer-09.sun.com ([192.18.109.79]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id mBHIJe0X024621 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 2008 18:19:40 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.mail-amer.sun.com by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0KC100A018BZ2H00@mail-amer.sun.com> (original mail from Mark.Carlson@Sun.COM) for PSARC-ext@Sun.COM (ORCPT PSARC-ext@Sun.COM); Wed, 17 Dec 2008 11:19:40 -0700 (MST) Received: from Macintosh-252.local ([129.150.34.110]) by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0KC1006D89KQH150@mail-amer.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@Sun.COM (ORCPT PSARC-ext@Sun.COM); Wed, 17 Dec 2008 11:19:38 -0700 (MST) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 11:19:37 -0700 From: "Mark A. Carlson" Subject: Re: libsndfile [PSARC/2008/767 FastTrack timeout 12/19/2008] In-reply-to: <200812121723.mBCHNtfh013625@sac.sfbay.sun.com> Sender: Mark.Carlson@sun.com To: PSARC-ext@sun.com Cc: Chris.Liu@sun.com Message-id: <494942B9.4040102@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <200812121723.mBCHNtfh013625@sac.sfbay.sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.18 (Macintosh/20081105) Status: RO Content-Length: 48 This case was approved in PSARC today. -- mark