From sacadmin Fri Jan 23 16:16:48 2009 Received: from sac.sfbay.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n0O0GmFf023124; Fri, 23 Jan 2009 16:16:48 -0800 (PST) Received: (from johnf@localhost) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/Submit) id n0O0GmO5023120; Fri, 23 Jan 2009 16:16:48 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 16:16:48 -0800 (PST) From: John Fischer Message-Id: <200901240016.n0O0GmO5023120@sac.sfbay.sun.com> To: PSARC-record@sac.sfbay.sun.com Cc: laszlo.peter@sun.com Subject: Python 2.6 and 3.0 [PSARC/2009/043 FastTrack timeout 01/30/2009] Status: RO Content-Length: 559 Template Version: @(#)sac_nextcase %I% %G% SMI This information is Copyright 2009 Sun Microsystems 1. Introduction 1.1. Project/Component Working Name: Python 2.6 and 3.0 1.2. Name of Document Author/Supplier: Author: Laszlo Peter 1.3 Date of This Document: 23 January, 2009 4. Technical Description See the case directory for more detail 6. Resources and Schedule 6.4. Steering Committee requested information 6.4.1. Consolidation C-team Name: JDS - Desktop 6.5. ARC review type: FastTrack 6.6. ARC Exposure: open From John.Fischer@sun.com Fri Jan 23 16:22:53 2009 Received: from sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n0O0Mphj023338 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 2009 16:22:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id n0O0MfoP027411 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-ext@sun.com>; Sat, 24 Jan 2009 08:22:50 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0KDY004239220N00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Fri, 23 Jan 2009 16:22:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.98.31]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0KDY009709211C80@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Fri, 23 Jan 2009 16:22:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from fe-amer-10.sun.com ([192.18.109.80]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id n0O0MnAG007231 for ; Sat, 24 Jan 2009 00:22:49 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.mail-amer.sun.com by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0KDY0040191ZLL00@mail-amer.sun.com> (original mail from John.Fischer@Sun.COM) for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Fri, 23 Jan 2009 17:22:49 -0700 (MST) Received: from 129.145.154.112 ([129.145.154.112]) by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0KDY00C0P9201G50@mail-amer.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Fri, 23 Jan 2009 17:22:48 -0700 (MST) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 16:22:48 -0800 From: John Fischer Subject: Python 2.6 and 3.0 [PSARC/2009/043] Sender: John.Fischer@sun.com To: PSARC-ext@sun.com Cc: John Fischer , Laszlo Peter Reply-to: John.Fischer@sun.com Message-id: <1232756567.2067.9.camel@sr1-umpk-12> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.6.301 Content-type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Boundary_(ID_UM8uoinAVDvwM4/TbAMbtg)" X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 Status: RO Content-Length: 801 --Boundary_(ID_UM8uoinAVDvwM4/TbAMbtg) Content-type: text/plain; charset=ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT All, I am sponsoring this case for Laszlo Peter of the JDS group. The case directory contains this proposal. I have set the timer for next Friday, January 30th, 2009. This project will deliver Python 2.6 and Python 3.0 in a Patch release of Solaris. It further depreciates Python versions 2.4 and 2.5. Though these all these versions are parallel installable, only 1 version will be in the default location. Existing projects should migrate to either Python 2.6 or Paython 3.0. Thanks, John --Boundary_(ID_UM8uoinAVDvwM4/TbAMbtg) Content-type: text/plain; charset=ASCII; name=proposal.txt Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: attachment; filename=proposal.txt From Laszlo.Peter@Sun.COM Fri Jan 23 02:29:21 2009 Return-path: Received: from fe-emea-09.sun.com ([unknown] [192.18.6.119]) by sfbay3-mail1.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java(tm) System Messaging Server 7.0-3.01 64bit (built Dec 9 2008)) with ESMTP id <0KDX00G7C6GWO3B0@sfbay3-mail1.sfbay.sun.com> for John.Fischer@sun.com; Fri, 23 Jan 2009 02:29:21 -0800 (PST) Original-recipient: rfc822;John.Fischer@sun.com Received: from conversion-daemon.fe-emea-09.sun.com by fe-emea-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0KDX00G015T3QG00@fe-emea-09.sun.com> (original mail from Laszlo.Peter@Sun.COM) for John.Fischer@sun.com (ORCPT John.Fischer@sun.com); Fri, 23 Jan 2009 10:29:20 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [192.168.1.102] ([60.234.117.94]) by fe-emea-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0KDX009FK6GQZM70@fe-emea-09.sun.com> for John.Fischer@sun.com (ORCPT John.Fischer@sun.com); Fri, 23 Jan 2009 10:29:16 +0000 (GMT) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 23:29:12 +1300 From: "Laszlo (Laca) Peter" Subject: Python 2.6 and 3.0 fast track Sender: Laszlo.Peter@Sun.COM To: John Fischer Reply-to: laca@sun.com Message-id: <1232706552.11532.49.camel@tecra> Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc. MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.24.0 Content-type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Boundary_(ID_UiqcneNqyle06wPBwAE6Zg)" X-Evolution-Source: imap://johnf@mail-amer.sun.com/ Status: RO Content-Length: 6725 --Boundary_(ID_UiqcneNqyle06wPBwAE6Zg) Content-type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi John, Please see the attached proposal. It's pretty much the same as the 2.5 one was, except: - it includes 2 versions: 2.6 and 3.0 - older 2.x versions are declared Obsolete Let me know if I need to change/add anything. Thanks, Laca --Boundary_(ID_UiqcneNqyle06wPBwAE6Zg) Content-type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; name=python-2.6-ft Content-disposition: attachment; filename=python-2.6-ft Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Title: Python 2.6 and 3.0 for Solaris Case: PSARC/2009/??? Submitter: Laszlo Peter Owner: Timeout: ??/??/2009 1.0 Introduction 1.1 Project/Component Working Name: Python 2.6 and 3.0 for Solaris 1.2 Purpose This project delivers Python 2.6 and 3.0 into Solaris. Python 2.4 and Python 2.5 are now Obsolete. Release binding: Patch 2.0 Description Python 2.6 and 3.0 are not fully compatible with the currently shipping Python 2.5 and Python 2.4 releases. All of the above Python versions are parallel installable, however, ideally only one version should be included in the default installation. New projects should target 2.6 or 3.0. Existing projects in Solaris should migrate to 2.6 or 3.0. Projects included on the OpenSolaris LiveCD must migrate to 2.6 as soon as possible so that we only need to ship one version of Python on the LiveCD. Other versions will be available from the IPS repository. /usr/bin/python us a convenience symlink to the latest version of Python 2.x. Python scripts delivered to Solaris must call the required version explicitely, not the /usr/bin/python convenience symlink, e.g.: #!/usr/bin/python2.6 The isapython2.x executable can be used to invoke the Python2.x interpreter that best matches the instruction set architecture of the running system. isapython2.x is specific to the [Open]Solaris implementation of Python. Projects delivering Python modules are required to deliver them for all non-Obsolete versions of Python that are shipped on the system. New projects do not have to deliver Python modules for Obsolete versions, but existing modules must be delivered for all versions. Projects delivering shared object Python modules are required to deliver both 32 and 64-bit versions, as described in PSARC/2006/666 2.2 Imported Interfaces The Python library/interpreter itself only uses system libraries. The various Python modules included in the SUNWPython25, SUNWPython26 and SUNWPython30 packages import the following interfaces: Python module Interface Classification -------------------------- ------------------ ---------------- ssl OpenSSL Volatile tkinter Tcl/Tk Uncommitted bz2 libbz2 Committed pyexpat libexpat Volatile zlib libz Committed ctypes libffi Volatile 2.3 Exported Interfaces Interface Classification Comments ----------------------------- -------------- ---------------------- /usr/bin/python Volatile Convenience symlink that points to the most recent version of Python 2.x /usr/bin/$MACH64/python Volatile Convenience symlink to the most recent version of the 64-bit Python 2.x interpreter /usr/bin/python2.4 Obsolete Python 2.4.x interpreter (32-bit) /usr/bin/python2.5 Obsolete Python 2.5.y interpreter (32-bit) /usr/bin/python2.6 Uncommitted Python 2.6.z interpreter (32-bit) /usr/bin/python3.0 Uncommitted Python 3.0.w interpreter (32-bit) /usr/bin/$MACH64/python2.4 Obsolete Python 2.4.x interpreter (64-bit) /usr/bin/$MACH64/python2.5 Obsolete Python 2.5.y interpreter (64-bit) /usr/bin/$MACH64/python2.6 Uncommitted Python 2.6.z interpreter (64-bit) /usr/bin/$MACH64/python3.0 Uncommitted Python 3.0.w interpreter (64-bit) /usr/bin/isapython2.4 Obsolete isaexec'd python2.4 /usr/bin/isapython2.5 Obsolete isaexec'd python2.5 /usr/bin/isapython2.6 Uncommitted isaexec'd python2.6 /usr/bin/isapython3.0 Uncommitted isaexec'd python3.0 /usr/lib/python2.4 Obsolete base directory for Python 2.4 modules /usr/lib/python2.4/vendor-packages directory for Python 2.4 Obsolete modules shipped by Sun see PSARC/2006/666 /usr/lib/python2.4/site-packages directory for Python 2.4 Obsolete modules installed locally by the sysadmin /usr/lib/python2.5 Obsolete base directory for Python 2.5 modules /usr/lib/python2.5/vendor-packages directory for Python 2.5 Obsolete modules shipped by Sun see PSARC/2006/666 /usr/lib/python2.5/site-packages directory for Python 2.5 Obsolete modules installed locally by the sysadmin /usr/lib/python2.6 Uncommitted base directory for Python 2.6 modules /usr/lib/python2.6/vendor-packages directory for Python 2.6 Uncommitted modules shipped by Sun see PSARC/2006/666 /usr/lib/python2.6/site-packages directory for Python 2.6 Volatile modules installed locally by the sysadmin /usr/lib/python3.0 Uncommitted base directory for Python 3.0 modules /usr/lib/python3.0/vendor-packages directory for Python 3.0 Uncommitted modules shipped by Sun see PSARC/2006/666 /usr/lib/python3.0/site-packages directory for Python 3.0 Volatile modules installed locally by the sysadmin SUNWPython Obsolete package name for Python 2.4 SUNWPython25 Obsolete package name for Python 2.5 SUNWPython26 Uncommitted package name for Python 2.6 SUNWPython30 Uncommitted package name for Python 3.0 --Boundary_(ID_UiqcneNqyle06wPBwAE6Zg)-- --Boundary_(ID_UM8uoinAVDvwM4/TbAMbtg)-- From johnlev@barman.uk.sun.com Sun Jan 25 04:00:13 2009 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n0PC0DF7004111 for ; Sun, 25 Jan 2009 04:00:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id n0PC0CkT014113 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-ext@sun.com>; Sun, 25 Jan 2009 04:00:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0KE100I0300C4T00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Sun, 25 Jan 2009 04:00:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from dm-uk-02.uk.sun.com ([129.156.101.196]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0KE100G8M00BHX10@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Sun, 25 Jan 2009 04:00:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from barman.uk.sun.com (barman.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.132.12]) by dm-uk-02.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id n0PC0955006462; Sun, 25 Jan 2009 12:00:10 +0000 (GMT) Received: from johnlev by barman.uk.sun.com with local (Exim 4.42) id 1LR3jR-0000E2-T7; Sun, 25 Jan 2009 12:04:54 +0000 X-URL: http://jurassic.eng/~johnlev/ Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 12:04:53 +0000 From: John Levon Subject: Re: Python 2.6 and 3.0 [PSARC/2009/043] In-reply-to: <1232756567.2067.9.camel@sr1-umpk-12> Sender: John Levon To: John Fischer Cc: PSARC-ext@sun.com, Laszlo Peter Message-id: <20090125120453.GA792@barman.uk.sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <1232756567.2067.9.camel@sr1-umpk-12> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i Status: RO Content-Length: 1102 On Fri, Jan 23, 2009 at 04:22:48PM -0800, John Fischer wrote: > This project delivers Python 2.6 and 3.0 into Solaris. Python 2.4 > and Python 2.5 are now Obsolete. This seems an awfully sudden jump from working Python to 'you need to port all your code to Python 2.6'. I don't recall offhand how serious the incompatibilities are between 2.6 and earlier? > Python scripts delivered to Solaris must call the required > version explicitely, not the /usr/bin/python convenience symlink, > e.g.: > > #!/usr/bin/python2.6 I know this has been folklore, but was this official policy before this point? > Projects delivering Python modules are required to deliver them > for all non-Obsolete versions of Python that are shipped on the > system. New projects do not have to deliver Python modules for > Obsolete versions, but existing modules must be delivered for > all versions. Surely 2.4/5 should be going through a longer period of obsolesence rather than just disappearing at any point from now. There's a lot of Python code out there. regards john From Laszlo.Peter@sun.com Sun Jan 25 21:05:51 2009 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n0Q55pB4012518 for ; Sun, 25 Jan 2009 21:05:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id n0Q55kYZ010653; Mon, 26 Jan 2009 05:05:49 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0KE200A01BHPYQ00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Sun, 25 Jan 2009 21:05:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from gmp-eb-inf-2.sun.com ([192.18.6.24]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0KE2005STBHNOU20@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Sun, 25 Jan 2009 21:05:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from fe-emea-10.sun.com (gmp-eb-lb-1-fe3.eu.sun.com [192.18.6.10]) by gmp-eb-inf-2.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id n0Q55lqe025660; Mon, 26 Jan 2009 05:05:47 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.fe-emea-10.sun.com by fe-emea-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0KE200H01BDYGL00@fe-emea-10.sun.com> (original mail from Laszlo.Peter@Sun.COM); Mon, 26 Jan 2009 05:05:47 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [192.168.1.102] ([60.234.117.94]) by fe-emea-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0KE2005VZBHKH140@fe-emea-10.sun.com>; Mon, 26 Jan 2009 05:05:47 +0000 (GMT) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 18:05:42 +1300 From: "Laszlo (Laca) Peter" Subject: Re: Python 2.6 and 3.0 [PSARC/2009/043] In-reply-to: <20090125120453.GA792@barman.uk.sun.com> Sender: Laszlo.Peter@sun.com To: John Levon Cc: John Fischer , PSARC-ext@sun.com Reply-to: laca@sun.com Message-id: <1232946342.25607.18.camel@tecra> Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc. MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.24.0 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <1232756567.2067.9.camel@sr1-umpk-12> <20090125120453.GA792@barman.uk.sun.com> Status: RO Content-Length: 2034 Hi John, On Sun, 2009-01-25 at 12:04 +0000, John Levon wrote: > On Fri, Jan 23, 2009 at 04:22:48PM -0800, John Fischer wrote: > > > This project delivers Python 2.6 and 3.0 into Solaris. Python 2.4 > > and Python 2.5 are now Obsolete. > > This seems an awfully sudden jump from working Python to 'you need to > port all your code to Python 2.6'. I don't recall offhand how serious > the incompatibilities are between 2.6 and earlier? The reason why we'd like projects to move away from 2.4 is so that we only need to have 1 version of Python on the OpenSolaris LiveCD, where space is limited. Some parts of the next version of GNOME will need at least 2.5. We will move to 2.6, but we will also need to have 2.4 on the LiveCD until IPS moved to 2.6 too. > > Python scripts delivered to Solaris must call the required > > version explicitely, not the /usr/bin/python convenience symlink, > > e.g.: > > > > #!/usr/bin/python2.6 > > I know this has been folklore, but was this official policy before this > point? Yes, the proposal for Python 2.5 included this (PSARC/2008/543). > > Projects delivering Python modules are required to deliver them > > for all non-Obsolete versions of Python that are shipped on the > > system. New projects do not have to deliver Python modules for > > Obsolete versions, but existing modules must be delivered for > > all versions. > > Surely 2.4/5 should be going through a longer period of obsolesence > rather than just disappearing at any point from now. There's a lot of > Python code out there. It's not going to disappear any time soon, in fact we have no plan to make it disappear. At the very least, it should remain in the IPS repository since, as you say, there's a lot of Python code out there. The reason for declaring it Obsolete is to signal that new projects should not target 2.4 or 2.5 and to ease the requirement of delivering all python modules for 3 different versions (and possibly multiplied by 2 ISA variants). Laca From johnlev@barman.uk.sun.com Mon Jan 26 04:23:47 2009 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n0QCNlhN028158 for ; Mon, 26 Jan 2009 04:23:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id n0QCNhJZ002606; Mon, 26 Jan 2009 04:23:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0KE20010BVRJ9300@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Mon, 26 Jan 2009 04:23:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from dm-uk-01.uk.sun.com ([129.156.101.115]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0KE200IE6VRDJJ30@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Mon, 26 Jan 2009 04:23:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from barman.uk.sun.com (barman.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.132.12]) by dm-uk-01.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id n0QCNZBn011681; Mon, 26 Jan 2009 12:23:35 +0000 (GMT) Received: from johnlev by barman.uk.sun.com with local (Exim 4.42) id 1LRQZg-0004b7-EP; Mon, 26 Jan 2009 12:28:20 +0000 X-URL: http://jurassic.eng/~johnlev/ Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 12:28:20 +0000 From: John Levon Subject: Re: Python 2.6 and 3.0 [PSARC/2009/043] In-reply-to: <1232946342.25607.18.camel@tecra> Sender: John Levon To: laca@sun.com Cc: John Fischer , PSARC-ext@sun.com Message-id: <20090126122820.GA17419@barman.uk.sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <1232756567.2067.9.camel@sr1-umpk-12> <20090125120453.GA792@barman.uk.sun.com> <1232946342.25607.18.camel@tecra> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i Status: RO Content-Length: 3003 On Mon, Jan 26, 2009 at 06:05:42PM +1300, Laszlo (Laca) Peter wrote: > > > This project delivers Python 2.6 and 3.0 into Solaris. Python 2.4 > > > and Python 2.5 are now Obsolete. > > > > This seems an awfully sudden jump from working Python to 'you need to > > port all your code to Python 2.6'. I don't recall offhand how serious > > the incompatibilities are between 2.6 and earlier? > > The reason why we'd like projects to move away from 2.4 is so that > we only need to have 1 version of Python on the OpenSolaris LiveCD, > where space is limited. Some parts of the next version of GNOME will > need at least 2.5. We will move to 2.6, but we will also need to > have 2.4 on the LiveCD until IPS moved to 2.6 too. Seems like a good reason to start the process for obsoleting 2.4 now, and *possibly* 2.5. But I don't think you can reasonably immediately obsolete 2.4 without any previous warning. BTW 'Obsolete' is a modifier not a classification, see the interface taxonomy. Since 2.4/5 are uncommitted, this allows you in theory to remove them in the next build. This can't be right. > > > Projects delivering Python modules are required to deliver them > > > for all non-Obsolete versions of Python that are shipped on the > > > system. New projects do not have to deliver Python modules for > > > Obsolete versions, but existing modules must be delivered for > > > all versions. > > > > Surely 2.4/5 should be going through a longer period of obsolesence > > rather than just disappearing at any point from now. There's a lot of > > Python code out there. > > It's not going to disappear any time soon, in fact we have no plan to > make it disappear. At the very least, it should remain in the IPS > repository since, as you say, there's a lot of Python code out there. > The reason for declaring it Obsolete is to signal that new projects > should not target 2.4 or 2.5 and to ease the requirement of delivering > all python modules for 3 different versions (and possibly multiplied > by 2 ISA variants). I would have expected to see something like: - mark 2.4 as Obsolete Uncommitted, with some indication in the case about following a notification period, instead of immediate removal I guess your comment above will do this - keep 2.5 in its current state - new code must deliver to 2.5 and 2.6, but not 2.4 OR - make 2.5 be like 2.4 - new code must deliver to 2.6, but not 2.4 or 2.5 This would depend on if 2.6 is really incompatible. I couldn't find any clear statement on incompatibilities, and if they're considered bugs or not. Do we have an idea? - code may deliver to 3.0 if upstream has a version As Rich Lowe pointed out, you're now requiring that any new Python code deliver for both 2.6 and 3.0. Given that would require permanently forking the upstream codebase, this seems rather onerous! Perhaps I'm really arguing that Python being Uncommitted no longer reflects the reality of the situation. regards john From carlsonj@phorcys.east.sun.com Mon Jan 26 04:34:37 2009 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n0QCYaVF028198 for ; Mon, 26 Jan 2009 04:34:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id n0QCYOMG012500; Mon, 26 Jan 2009 12:34:33 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0KE200J05W9KKG00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Mon, 26 Jan 2009 04:34:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com ([129.148.174.143]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0KE200BDPW9JYM70@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Mon, 26 Jan 2009 04:34:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.3+Sun/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n0QCYVUl008658; Mon, 26 Jan 2009 07:34:31 -0500 (EST) Received: (from carlsonj@localhost) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.3+Sun/8.14.3/Submit) id n0QCYVM3008655; Mon, 26 Jan 2009 07:34:31 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 07:34:31 -0500 From: James Carlson Subject: Re: Python 2.6 and 3.0 [PSARC/2009/043] In-reply-to: <1232756567.2067.9.camel@sr1-umpk-12> To: John.Fischer@sun.com Cc: PSARC-ext@sun.com Message-id: <18813.44503.492175.873463@gargle.gargle.HOWL> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: VM 7.01 under Emacs 21.3.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <1232756567.2067.9.camel@sr1-umpk-12> Status: RO Content-Length: 867 John Fischer writes: > /usr/bin/python us a convenience symlink to the latest version of > Python 2.x. What's the convenience symlink for the latest version of Python 3.x? Or of Python in general? > /usr/bin/python3.0 Uncommitted Python 3.0.w interpreter > (32-bit) I'm not sure what "Uncommitted" means in this context. Ordinarily, it would mean that other projects shouldn't use this link because it could shift out from under them. But I suspect you actually mean the opposite: you *want* projects implemented in Python to use these specific version links to avoid surprises. Please clarify. -- James Carlson, Solaris Networking Sun Microsystems / 35 Network Drive 71.232W Vox +1 781 442 2084 MS UBUR02-212 / Burlington MA 01803-2757 42.496N Fax +1 781 442 1677 From Laszlo.Peter@sun.com Mon Jan 26 20:02:12 2009 Received: from newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (newsunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.245]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n0R42BPO000251 for ; Mon, 26 Jan 2009 20:02:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id n0R428ll024604; Mon, 26 Jan 2009 21:02:10 -0700 (MST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0KE40060H37LFE00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Mon, 26 Jan 2009 21:02:09 -0700 (MST) Received: from gmp-eb-inf-2.sun.com ([192.18.6.24]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0KE4004PN37JX100@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Mon, 26 Jan 2009 21:02:08 -0700 (MST) Received: from fe-emea-09.sun.com (gmp-eb-lb-1-fe3.eu.sun.com [192.18.6.10]) by gmp-eb-inf-2.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id n0R427x6021299; Tue, 27 Jan 2009 04:02:07 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.fe-emea-09.sun.com by fe-emea-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0KE4005012ZJUC00@fe-emea-09.sun.com> (original mail from Laszlo.Peter@Sun.COM); Tue, 27 Jan 2009 04:02:07 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [192.168.1.102] ([60.234.117.94]) by fe-emea-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0KE400KXJ37FSXD0@fe-emea-09.sun.com>; Tue, 27 Jan 2009 04:02:06 +0000 (GMT) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 17:02:02 +1300 From: "Laszlo (Laca) Peter" Subject: Re: Python 2.6 and 3.0 [PSARC/2009/043] In-reply-to: <20090126122820.GA17419@barman.uk.sun.com> Sender: Laszlo.Peter@sun.com To: John Levon Cc: John Fischer , PSARC-ext@sun.com Reply-to: laca@sun.com Message-id: <1233028922.827.311.camel@tecra> Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc. MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.24.0 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <1232756567.2067.9.camel@sr1-umpk-12> <20090125120453.GA792@barman.uk.sun.com> <1232946342.25607.18.camel@tecra> <20090126122820.GA17419@barman.uk.sun.com> Status: RO Content-Length: 4733 On Mon, 2009-01-26 at 12:28 +0000, John Levon wrote: > On Mon, Jan 26, 2009 at 06:05:42PM +1300, Laszlo (Laca) Peter wrote: > > > > > This project delivers Python 2.6 and 3.0 into Solaris. Python 2.4 > > > > and Python 2.5 are now Obsolete. > > > > > > This seems an awfully sudden jump from working Python to 'you need to > > > port all your code to Python 2.6'. I don't recall offhand how serious > > > the incompatibilities are between 2.6 and earlier? > > > > The reason why we'd like projects to move away from 2.4 is so that > > we only need to have 1 version of Python on the OpenSolaris LiveCD, > > where space is limited. Some parts of the next version of GNOME will > > need at least 2.5. We will move to 2.6, but we will also need to > > have 2.4 on the LiveCD until IPS moved to 2.6 too. > > Seems like a good reason to start the process for obsoleting 2.4 now, > and *possibly* 2.5. But I don't think you can reasonably immediately > obsolete 2.4 without any previous warning. My understanding was that flagging an interface as Obsolete _is_ the warning. Maybe I'm misunderstanding something, but the Obsolete and EOF process[1] says: "The first step in removing something from the system is to conduct a project whose aim is to reclassify it as obsolete." It also seems to require a 1 year timeout from reclassifying before the interface can be removed. > BTW 'Obsolete' is a modifier not a classification, see the interface > taxonomy. Right, so the interface table should read Obsolete Uncommitted for those items. > Since 2.4/5 are uncommitted, this allows you in theory to remove them in > the next build. This can't be right. > > > > Projects delivering Python modules are required to deliver them > > > > for all non-Obsolete versions of Python that are shipped on the > > > > system. New projects do not have to deliver Python modules for > > > > Obsolete versions, but existing modules must be delivered for > > > > all versions. > > > > > > Surely 2.4/5 should be going through a longer period of obsolesence > > > rather than just disappearing at any point from now. There's a lot of > > > Python code out there. > > > > It's not going to disappear any time soon, in fact we have no plan to > > make it disappear. At the very least, it should remain in the IPS > > repository since, as you say, there's a lot of Python code out there. > > The reason for declaring it Obsolete is to signal that new projects > > should not target 2.4 or 2.5 and to ease the requirement of delivering > > all python modules for 3 different versions (and possibly multiplied > > by 2 ISA variants). > > I would have expected to see something like: > > - mark 2.4 as Obsolete Uncommitted, with some indication in the case about > following a notification period, instead of immediate removal > > I guess your comment above will do this Right. There is no plan to remove it in the foreseeable future, that's why there was no notification period, but I should have made that clear. > - keep 2.5 in its current state > - new code must deliver to 2.5 and 2.6, but not 2.4 > OR > - make 2.5 be like 2.4 > - new code must deliver to 2.6, but not 2.4 or 2.5 > > This would depend on if 2.6 is really incompatible. I couldn't find > any clear statement on incompatibilities, and if they're considered > bugs or not. Do we have an idea? There are some. I don't have a definitive list, but a few examples I know of: - the .pyc format changed - strings are not supported as Exceptions - some modules have been deprecated and produce warnings, e.g. posixfile, popen2, sha, md5 - C modules need to be recompiled due to ABI changes So, the changes are not huge, but apparently 2.6 makes the transition to 3.0 easier. > - code may deliver to 3.0 if upstream has a version > > As Rich Lowe pointed out, you're now requiring that any new Python > code deliver for both 2.6 and 3.0. Given that would require permanently > forking the upstream codebase, this seems rather onerous! Yes, Rich is right. I promised to clarify that paragraph. What you have above is correct, projects only have to deliver to 3.0 if an upstream version that supports 3.0 exists. They are not required to do the port from 2.x to 3.0. > Perhaps I'm really arguing that Python being Uncommitted no longer > reflects the reality of the situation. So, we have 3 "mostly compatible" versions (2.x) and an incompatible version (3.x). Given that new (incompatible) versions are introduced in parallel with the previous versions, they could be Committed. That said, we still need to pick one version that all core OpenSolaris apps use and using other versions should be discouraged. Laca From Laszlo.Peter@sun.com Mon Jan 26 20:11:45 2009 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n0R4BiAa020301 for ; Mon, 26 Jan 2009 20:11:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id n0R4Bcmh017155 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-ext@sun.com>; Tue, 27 Jan 2009 04:11:43 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0KE4007033NIE000@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Mon, 26 Jan 2009 21:11:42 -0700 (MST) Received: from gmp-eb-inf-1.sun.com ([192.18.6.21]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0KE4004WD3NHX300@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Mon, 26 Jan 2009 21:11:42 -0700 (MST) Received: from fe-emea-10.sun.com (gmp-eb-lb-2-fe2.eu.sun.com [192.18.6.11]) by gmp-eb-inf-1.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id n0R4Bfv1008632 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 2009 04:11:41 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.fe-emea-10.sun.com by fe-emea-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0KE400C013LJIO00@fe-emea-10.sun.com> (original mail from Laszlo.Peter@Sun.COM) for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Tue, 27 Jan 2009 04:11:41 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [192.168.1.102] ([60.234.117.94]) by fe-emea-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0KE4004F63NDCBC0@fe-emea-10.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Tue, 27 Jan 2009 04:11:40 +0000 (GMT) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 17:11:36 +1300 From: "Laszlo (Laca) Peter" Subject: Re: Python 2.6 and 3.0 [PSARC/2009/043] In-reply-to: <18813.44503.492175.873463@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Sender: Laszlo.Peter@sun.com To: James Carlson Cc: John.Fischer@sun.com, PSARC-ext@sun.com Reply-to: laca@sun.com Message-id: <1233029496.827.321.camel@tecra> Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc. MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.24.0 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <1232756567.2067.9.camel@sr1-umpk-12> <18813.44503.492175.873463@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Status: RO Content-Length: 1293 On Mon, 2009-01-26 at 07:34 -0500, James Carlson wrote: > John Fischer writes: > > /usr/bin/python us a convenience symlink to the latest version of > > Python 2.x. > > What's the convenience symlink for the latest version of Python 3.x? > Or of Python in general? There isn't one. The purpose of /usr/bin/python is simply that if someone types "python" in a terminal _a_ version of python starts and they won't think that python isn't there. > > /usr/bin/python3.0 Uncommitted Python 3.0.w interpreter > > (32-bit) > > I'm not sure what "Uncommitted" means in this context. Ordinarily, it > would mean that other projects shouldn't use this link because it > could shift out from under them. But I suspect you actually mean the > opposite: you *want* projects implemented in Python to use these > specific version links to avoid surprises. /usr/bin/python3.0 is not a symlink, it's the python interpreter itself. Yes, I want projects to use the versioned binaries, but there is no guarantee that the Python upstream project won't make incompatible changes. Previously Python was Volatile (External), but that would have required contracts with the ever-growing number of consumers so it was upgraded to Uncommitted in the 2.5 case. Laca From carlsonj@phorcys.east.sun.com Tue Jan 27 05:10:04 2009 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n0RDA38E017902 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 2009 05:10:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id n0RD9mN3006890; Tue, 27 Jan 2009 13:10:00 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0KE400307SKNN100@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Tue, 27 Jan 2009 05:09:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com ([129.148.174.143]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0KE400J3DSKM1780@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Tue, 27 Jan 2009 05:09:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.3+Sun/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n0RD9vA3012956; Tue, 27 Jan 2009 08:09:57 -0500 (EST) Received: (from carlsonj@localhost) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.3+Sun/8.14.3/Submit) id n0RD9vh5012953; Tue, 27 Jan 2009 08:09:57 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 08:09:57 -0500 From: James Carlson Subject: Re: Python 2.6 and 3.0 [PSARC/2009/043] In-reply-to: <1233029496.827.321.camel@tecra> To: laca@sun.com Cc: John.Fischer@sun.com, PSARC-ext@sun.com Message-id: <18815.1957.610894.244905@gargle.gargle.HOWL> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: VM 7.01 under Emacs 21.3.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <1232756567.2067.9.camel@sr1-umpk-12> <18813.44503.492175.873463@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <1233029496.827.321.camel@tecra> Status: RO Content-Length: 1979 Laszlo (Laca) Peter writes: > On Mon, 2009-01-26 at 07:34 -0500, James Carlson wrote: > > John Fischer writes: > > > /usr/bin/python us a convenience symlink to the latest version of > > > Python 2.x. > > > > What's the convenience symlink for the latest version of Python 3.x? > > Or of Python in general? > > There isn't one. The purpose of /usr/bin/python is simply that if > someone types "python" in a terminal _a_ version of python starts > and they won't think that python isn't there. I'm a little puzzled by that. Why would /usr/bin/python give me the latest version of Python 2.x in particular, rather than just the latest version of Python in general? Why does history end at the end of 2.x? Why would I want the latest of a slowly dying major release? > > > /usr/bin/python3.0 Uncommitted Python 3.0.w interpreter > > > (32-bit) > > > > I'm not sure what "Uncommitted" means in this context. Ordinarily, it > > would mean that other projects shouldn't use this link because it > > could shift out from under them. But I suspect you actually mean the > > opposite: you *want* projects implemented in Python to use these > > specific version links to avoid surprises. > > /usr/bin/python3.0 is not a symlink, it's the python interpreter itself. > Yes, I want projects to use the versioned binaries, but there is no > guarantee that the Python upstream project won't make incompatible > changes. Previously Python was Volatile (External), but that would > have required contracts with the ever-growing number of consumers > so it was upgraded to Uncommitted in the 2.5 case. It's probably a nit, but I suggest using Committed for the links and Uncommitted for the language that it parses. -- James Carlson, Solaris Networking Sun Microsystems / 35 Network Drive 71.232W Vox +1 781 442 2084 MS UBUR02-212 / Burlington MA 01803-2757 42.496N Fax +1 781 442 1677 From johnlev@barman.uk.sun.com Tue Jan 27 05:39:35 2009 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n0RDdYEY018106 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 2009 05:39:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id n0RDdRJF024271; Tue, 27 Jan 2009 13:39:33 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0KE400K0DTXWB500@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Tue, 27 Jan 2009 05:39:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from dm-uk-01.uk.sun.com ([129.156.101.115]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0KE4009WCTXVHN50@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Tue, 27 Jan 2009 05:39:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from barman.uk.sun.com (barman.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.132.12]) by dm-uk-01.uk.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id n0RDdTrM009017; Tue, 27 Jan 2009 13:39:29 +0000 (GMT) Received: from johnlev by barman.uk.sun.com with local (Exim 4.42) id 1LRoEh-00043k-5p; Tue, 27 Jan 2009 13:44:15 +0000 X-URL: http://jurassic.eng/~johnlev/ Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 13:44:15 +0000 From: John Levon Subject: Re: Python 2.6 and 3.0 [PSARC/2009/043] In-reply-to: <1233028922.827.311.camel@tecra> Sender: John Levon To: laca@sun.com Cc: John Fischer , PSARC-ext@sun.com Message-id: <20090127134415.GA14548@barman.uk.sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <1232756567.2067.9.camel@sr1-umpk-12> <20090125120453.GA792@barman.uk.sun.com> <1232946342.25607.18.camel@tecra> <20090126122820.GA17419@barman.uk.sun.com> <1233028922.827.311.camel@tecra> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i Status: RO Content-Length: 1000 On Tue, Jan 27, 2009 at 05:02:02PM +1300, Laszlo (Laca) Peter wrote: > My understanding was that flagging an interface as Obsolete _is_ the > warning. Maybe I'm misunderstanding something, but the Obsolete and > EOF process[1] says: "The first step in removing something from the > system is to conduct a project whose aim is to reclassify it as > obsolete." It also seems to require a 1 year timeout from reclassifying > before the interface can be removed. If the EOF process does indeed apply to this case, then fine. > > This would depend on if 2.6 is really incompatible. I couldn't find > > any clear statement on incompatibilities, and if they're considered > > bugs or not. Do we have an idea? > > There are some. I don't have a definitive list, but a few > examples I know of: > - the .pyc format changed > - strings are not supported as Exceptions This one alone breaks a significant body of code. I don't think we will be able to remove 2.5 for a long time. regards john From Laszlo.Peter@sun.com Tue Jan 27 18:38:25 2009 Received: from sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n0S2cObN007954 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 2009 18:38:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id n0S2cGaw009969 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-ext@sun.com>; Wed, 28 Jan 2009 10:38:22 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0KE500709TZTSK00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Tue, 27 Jan 2009 18:38:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from gmp-eb-inf-1.sun.com ([192.18.6.21]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0KE5006SZTZSGQ10@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Tue, 27 Jan 2009 18:38:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from fe-emea-09.sun.com (gmp-eb-lb-1-fe3.eu.sun.com [192.18.6.10]) by gmp-eb-inf-1.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id n0S2cG2h012005 for ; Wed, 28 Jan 2009 02:38:16 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.fe-emea-09.sun.com by fe-emea-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0KE500F01TUSUC00@fe-emea-09.sun.com> (original mail from Laszlo.Peter@Sun.COM) for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Wed, 28 Jan 2009 02:38:15 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [192.168.1.102] ([60.234.117.94]) by fe-emea-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0KE5002WMTZO2U50@fe-emea-09.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Wed, 28 Jan 2009 02:38:15 +0000 (GMT) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 15:38:10 +1300 From: "Laszlo (Laca) Peter" Subject: Re: Python 2.6 and 3.0 [PSARC/2009/043] In-reply-to: <18815.1957.610894.244905@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Sender: Laszlo.Peter@sun.com To: James Carlson Cc: John.Fischer@sun.com, PSARC-ext@sun.com Reply-to: laca@sun.com Message-id: <1233110290.827.354.camel@tecra> Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc. MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.24.0 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <1232756567.2067.9.camel@sr1-umpk-12> <18813.44503.492175.873463@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <1233029496.827.321.camel@tecra> <18815.1957.610894.244905@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Status: RO Content-Length: 2011 On Tue, 2009-01-27 at 08:09 -0500, James Carlson wrote: > > > > /usr/bin/python us a convenience symlink to the latest version of > > > > Python 2.x. > > > > > > What's the convenience symlink for the latest version of Python 3.x? > > > Or of Python in general? > > > > There isn't one. The purpose of /usr/bin/python is simply that if > > someone types "python" in a terminal _a_ version of python starts > > and they won't think that python isn't there. > > I'm a little puzzled by that. Why would /usr/bin/python give me the > latest version of Python 2.x in particular, rather than just the > latest version of Python in general? Python 3.0 is very new and not widely adopted yet. > Why does history end at the end of 2.x? > > Why would I want the latest of a slowly dying major release? Many of the modules that you may be looking for are not yet available for 3.0. I expect that most people looking for "any version of python" are really looking for a 2.x release. Laca > > > > /usr/bin/python3.0 Uncommitted Python 3.0.w interpreter > > > > (32-bit) > > > > > > I'm not sure what "Uncommitted" means in this context. Ordinarily, it > > > would mean that other projects shouldn't use this link because it > > > could shift out from under them. But I suspect you actually mean the > > > opposite: you *want* projects implemented in Python to use these > > > specific version links to avoid surprises. > > > > /usr/bin/python3.0 is not a symlink, it's the python interpreter itself. > > Yes, I want projects to use the versioned binaries, but there is no > > guarantee that the Python upstream project won't make incompatible > > changes. Previously Python was Volatile (External), but that would > > have required contracts with the ever-growing number of consumers > > so it was upgraded to Uncommitted in the 2.5 case. > > It's probably a nit, but I suggest using Committed for the links and > Uncommitted for the language that it parses. From John.Fischer@sun.com Wed Jan 28 10:08:38 2009 Received: from sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n0SI8bWg007864 for ; Wed, 28 Jan 2009 10:08:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id n0SI8NFj020418 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-ext@sun.com>; Thu, 29 Jan 2009 02:08:36 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0KE700A0912BR600@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Wed, 28 Jan 2009 11:08:35 -0700 (MST) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.98.43]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0KE7003IU12A6H80@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Wed, 28 Jan 2009 11:08:34 -0700 (MST) Received: from fe-amer-10.sun.com ([192.18.109.80]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id n0SI8Yj1011051 for ; Wed, 28 Jan 2009 18:08:34 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.mail-amer.sun.com by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0KE600701ZZC7500@mail-amer.sun.com> (original mail from John.Fischer@Sun.COM) for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Wed, 28 Jan 2009 11:08:34 -0700 (MST) Received: from 129.145.154.112 ([129.145.154.112]) by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0KE7000VD125E1C0@mail-amer.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Wed, 28 Jan 2009 11:08:30 -0700 (MST) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 10:08:29 -0800 From: John Fischer Subject: PSARC/2009/043 - Python 2.6 and 3.0 Sender: John.Fischer@sun.com To: Laszlo Peter Cc: John Fischer , PSARC-ext@sun.com Reply-to: John.Fischer@sun.com Message-id: <1233166108.2067.1516.camel@sr1-umpk-12> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.6.301 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 Status: RO Content-Length: 83 Laca, This case was approved at today's Open ARC PSARC meeting. Thanks, John From carlsonj@phorcys.east.sun.com Wed Jan 28 11:26:01 2009 Received: from sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n0SJQ0M3010877 for ; Wed, 28 Jan 2009 11:26:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id n0SJPles005048; Thu, 29 Jan 2009 03:25:54 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0KE70011N4N2GC00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 28 Jan 2009 11:25:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com ([129.148.174.143]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0KE700M6N4N12D50@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 28 Jan 2009 11:25:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.3+Sun/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n0SJPm2M017907; Wed, 28 Jan 2009 14:25:48 -0500 (EST) Received: (from carlsonj@localhost) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.3+Sun/8.14.3/Submit) id n0SJPmmY017904; Wed, 28 Jan 2009 14:25:48 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 14:25:48 -0500 From: James Carlson Subject: Re: Python 2.6 and 3.0 [PSARC/2009/043] In-reply-to: <1233110290.827.354.camel@tecra> To: laca@sun.com Cc: John.Fischer@sun.com, PSARC-ext@sun.com Message-id: <18816.45372.68493.127264@gargle.gargle.HOWL> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: VM 7.01 under Emacs 21.3.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <1232756567.2067.9.camel@sr1-umpk-12> <18813.44503.492175.873463@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <1233029496.827.321.camel@tecra> <18815.1957.610894.244905@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <1233110290.827.354.camel@tecra> Status: RO Content-Length: 1249 Laszlo (Laca) Peter writes: > On Tue, 2009-01-27 at 08:09 -0500, James Carlson wrote: > > I'm a little puzzled by that. Why would /usr/bin/python give me the > > latest version of Python 2.x in particular, rather than just the > > latest version of Python in general? > > Python 3.0 is very new and not widely adopted yet. OK. I'll assume that /usr/bin/python though *will* (in the indefinite future) become 3.0, and that it's not actually defined for users in terms of 2.x. Making it the "newest commonly usable version" or some such should resolve the issue. With that, +1. > > Why does history end at the end of 2.x? > > > > Why would I want the latest of a slowly dying major release? > > Many of the modules that you may be looking for are not yet available > for 3.0. I expect that most people looking for "any version of python" > are really looking for a 2.x release. Understood; it was the _definition_ of the link in specific terms of 2.x that seemed puzzling, as I don't think that history ends there. -- James Carlson, Solaris Networking Sun Microsystems / 35 Network Drive 71.232W Vox +1 781 442 2084 MS UBUR02-212 / Burlington MA 01803-2757 42.496N Fax +1 781 442 1677 From gdamore@Sun.COM Wed Jan 28 12:06:24 2009 Received: from sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (sunmail4.Singapore.Sun.COM [129.158.71.19]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n0SK6M9p004777 for ; Wed, 28 Jan 2009 12:06:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail4.singapore.sun.com (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id n0SK6C7v025616 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-ext@sun.com>; Thu, 29 Jan 2009 04:06:21 +0800 (SGT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0KE70065V6IK9U00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Wed, 28 Jan 2009 12:06:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from sca-es-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.43.132]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0KE700MT26IK2FC0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Wed, 28 Jan 2009 12:06:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from fe-sfbay-10.sun.com ([192.18.43.129]) by sca-es-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id n0SK6Kom005803 for ; Wed, 28 Jan 2009 12:06:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from conversion-daemon.fe-sfbay-10.sun.com by fe-sfbay-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0KE700J0163ADW00@fe-sfbay-10.sun.com> (original mail from gdamore@sun.com) for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Wed, 28 Jan 2009 12:06:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.251.11] ([76.93.15.33]) by fe-sfbay-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0KE7003HF6IDZM10@fe-sfbay-10.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Wed, 28 Jan 2009 12:06:13 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 12:06:12 -0800 From: "Garrett D'Amore" Subject: Re: Python 2.6 and 3.0 [PSARC/2009/043] In-reply-to: <18816.45372.68493.127264@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Sender: Garrett.Damore@Sun.COM To: James Carlson Cc: laca@Sun.COM, John.Fischer@Sun.COM, PSARC-ext@Sun.COM Message-id: <4980BAB4.5000809@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <1232756567.2067.9.camel@sr1-umpk-12> <18813.44503.492175.873463@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <1233029496.827.321.camel@tecra> <18815.1957.610894.244905@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <1233110290.827.354.camel@tecra> <18816.45372.68493.127264@gargle.gargle.HOWL> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.18 (X11/20081201) Status: RO Content-Length: 1494 I wonder if it might not be a terrible idea to have /usr/bin/python2 and /usr/bin/python3 ? I don't know enough about Python, but if the incompatibilities are similar in scope the incompatibilities that existed between perl4 and perl5, then having a link that points to the latest minor release within a given major release might be useful. -- Garrett James Carlson wrote: > Laszlo (Laca) Peter writes: > >> On Tue, 2009-01-27 at 08:09 -0500, James Carlson wrote: >> >>> I'm a little puzzled by that. Why would /usr/bin/python give me the >>> latest version of Python 2.x in particular, rather than just the >>> latest version of Python in general? >>> >> Python 3.0 is very new and not widely adopted yet. >> > > OK. I'll assume that /usr/bin/python though *will* (in the indefinite > future) become 3.0, and that it's not actually defined for users in > terms of 2.x. > > Making it the "newest commonly usable version" or some such should > resolve the issue. > > With that, +1. > > >>> Why does history end at the end of 2.x? >>> >>> Why would I want the latest of a slowly dying major release? >>> >> Many of the modules that you may be looking for are not yet available >> for 3.0. I expect that most people looking for "any version of python" >> are really looking for a 2.x release. >> > > Understood; it was the _definition_ of the link in specific terms of > 2.x that seemed puzzling, as I don't think that history ends there. > > From carlsonj@phorcys.east.sun.com Wed Jan 28 12:16:14 2009 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n0SKGE8k000386 for ; Wed, 28 Jan 2009 12:16:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id n0SKG7cE013251; Wed, 28 Jan 2009 12:16:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0KE7007176YGHX00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 28 Jan 2009 12:15:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com ([129.148.174.143]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0KE700M0Y6YF2FE0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 28 Jan 2009 12:15:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.3+Sun/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n0SKFn4m018314; Wed, 28 Jan 2009 15:15:49 -0500 (EST) Received: (from carlsonj@localhost) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.3+Sun/8.14.3/Submit) id n0SKFnQg018311; Wed, 28 Jan 2009 15:15:49 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 15:15:49 -0500 From: James Carlson Subject: Re: Python 2.6 and 3.0 [PSARC/2009/043] In-reply-to: <4980BAB4.5000809@sun.com> To: "Garrett D'Amore" Cc: John.Fischer@sun.com, PSARC-ext@sun.com, laca@sun.com Message-id: <18816.48373.704615.353954@gargle.gargle.HOWL> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: VM 7.01 under Emacs 21.3.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <1232756567.2067.9.camel@sr1-umpk-12> <18813.44503.492175.873463@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <1233029496.827.321.camel@tecra> <18815.1957.610894.244905@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <1233110290.827.354.camel@tecra> <18816.45372.68493.127264@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4980BAB4.5000809@sun.com> Status: RO Content-Length: 933 Garrett D'Amore writes: > I wonder if it might not be a terrible idea to have /usr/bin/python2 and > /usr/bin/python3 ? I don't know enough about Python, but if the > incompatibilities are similar in scope the incompatibilities that > existed between perl4 and perl5, then having a link that points to the > latest minor release within a given major release might be useful. Sure; if it makes sense to the submitter. In this case, I *think* I've gotten to the bottom of the original design intent, which was not to provide a link to the "newest version of 2.x," but rather to provide a link to the "newest recommended version you should run if all you know is that you want something called 'Python'." -- James Carlson, Solaris Networking Sun Microsystems / 35 Network Drive 71.232W Vox +1 781 442 2084 MS UBUR02-212 / Burlington MA 01803-2757 42.496N Fax +1 781 442 1677 From Laszlo.Peter@sun.com Wed Jan 28 20:45:55 2009 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n0T4jsHV017778 for ; Wed, 28 Jan 2009 20:45:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id n0T4j6l8004015 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-ext@sun.com>; Thu, 29 Jan 2009 04:45:53 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0KE700G0JUKDJM00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Wed, 28 Jan 2009 20:45:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from gmp-eb-inf-1.sun.com ([192.18.6.21]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0KE700BFPUKC0K40@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Wed, 28 Jan 2009 20:45:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from fe-emea-10.sun.com (gmp-eb-lb-2-fe2.eu.sun.com [192.18.6.11]) by gmp-eb-inf-1.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id n0T4jm8d020723 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 2009 04:45:48 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.fe-emea-10.sun.com by fe-emea-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0KE700A01UHOIV00@fe-emea-10.sun.com> (original mail from Laszlo.Peter@Sun.COM) for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Thu, 29 Jan 2009 04:45:47 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [192.168.1.102] ([60.234.117.94]) by fe-emea-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0KE700H42UK2HY50@fe-emea-10.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Thu, 29 Jan 2009 04:45:41 +0000 (GMT) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 17:45:36 +1300 From: "Laszlo (Laca) Peter" Subject: Re: Python 2.6 and 3.0 [PSARC/2009/043] In-reply-to: <18816.45372.68493.127264@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Sender: Laszlo.Peter@sun.com To: James Carlson Cc: John.Fischer@sun.com, PSARC-ext@sun.com Reply-to: laca@sun.com Message-id: <1233204336.827.415.camel@tecra> Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc. MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.24.0 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <1232756567.2067.9.camel@sr1-umpk-12> <18813.44503.492175.873463@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <1233029496.827.321.camel@tecra> <18815.1957.610894.244905@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <1233110290.827.354.camel@tecra> <18816.45372.68493.127264@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Status: RO Content-Length: 1222 On Wed, 2009-01-28 at 14:25 -0500, James Carlson wrote: > Laszlo (Laca) Peter writes: > > On Tue, 2009-01-27 at 08:09 -0500, James Carlson wrote: > > > I'm a little puzzled by that. Why would /usr/bin/python give me the > > > latest version of Python 2.x in particular, rather than just the > > > latest version of Python in general? > > > > Python 3.0 is very new and not widely adopted yet. > > OK. I'll assume that /usr/bin/python though *will* (in the indefinite > future) become 3.0, and that it's not actually defined for users in > terms of 2.x. > > Making it the "newest commonly usable version" or some such should > resolve the issue. Yes, that's much better wording, I will use that in the next update. Thanks, Laca > With that, +1. > > > > Why does history end at the end of 2.x? > > > > > > Why would I want the latest of a slowly dying major release? > > > > Many of the modules that you may be looking for are not yet available > > for 3.0. I expect that most people looking for "any version of python" > > are really looking for a 2.x release. > > Understood; it was the _definition_ of the link in specific terms of > 2.x that seemed puzzling, as I don't think that history ends there. > From Laszlo.Peter@sun.com Wed Jan 28 21:23:51 2009 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n0T5Nojr018597 for ; Wed, 28 Jan 2009 21:23:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id n0T5NfPj026444 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-ext@sun.com>; Thu, 29 Jan 2009 05:23:49 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0KE700C0DWBNCL00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Wed, 28 Jan 2009 21:23:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from gmp-eb-inf-1.sun.com ([192.18.6.21]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0KE700H6IWBMSDD0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Wed, 28 Jan 2009 21:23:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from fe-emea-10.sun.com (gmp-eb-lb-1-fe3.eu.sun.com [192.18.6.10]) by gmp-eb-inf-1.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id n0T5NjRb021761 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 2009 05:23:45 +0000 (GMT) Received: from conversion-daemon.fe-emea-10.sun.com by fe-emea-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0KE700401W3UWW00@fe-emea-10.sun.com> (original mail from Laszlo.Peter@Sun.COM) for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Thu, 29 Jan 2009 05:23:45 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [192.168.1.102] ([60.234.117.94]) by fe-emea-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0KE700HPNWBIHYB0@fe-emea-10.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Thu, 29 Jan 2009 05:23:45 +0000 (GMT) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 18:23:40 +1300 From: "Laszlo (Laca) Peter" Subject: Re: Python 2.6 and 3.0 [PSARC/2009/043] In-reply-to: <4980BAB4.5000809@sun.com> Sender: Laszlo.Peter@sun.com To: "Garrett D'Amore" Cc: James Carlson , John.Fischer@sun.com, PSARC-ext@sun.com Reply-to: laca@sun.com Message-id: <1233206620.827.460.camel@tecra> Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc. MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.24.0 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <1232756567.2067.9.camel@sr1-umpk-12> <18813.44503.492175.873463@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <1233029496.827.321.camel@tecra> <18815.1957.610894.244905@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <1233110290.827.354.camel@tecra> <18816.45372.68493.127264@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4980BAB4.5000809@sun.com> Status: RO Content-Length: 1815 On Wed, 2009-01-28 at 12:06 -0800, Garrett D'Amore wrote: > I wonder if it might not be a terrible idea to have /usr/bin/python2 and > /usr/bin/python3 ? I don't know enough about Python, but if the > incompatibilities are similar in scope the incompatibilities that > existed between perl4 and perl5, then having a link that points to the > latest minor release within a given major release might be useful. I don't think they are "compatible enough" for that. If someone needs it for something so simple that it doesn't matter which 2.x version is running then they can probably equally use 3.0. Laca > James Carlson wrote: > > Laszlo (Laca) Peter writes: > > > >> On Tue, 2009-01-27 at 08:09 -0500, James Carlson wrote: > >> > >>> I'm a little puzzled by that. Why would /usr/bin/python give me the > >>> latest version of Python 2.x in particular, rather than just the > >>> latest version of Python in general? > >>> > >> Python 3.0 is very new and not widely adopted yet. > >> > > > > OK. I'll assume that /usr/bin/python though *will* (in the indefinite > > future) become 3.0, and that it's not actually defined for users in > > terms of 2.x. > > > > Making it the "newest commonly usable version" or some such should > > resolve the issue. > > > > With that, +1. > > > > > >>> Why does history end at the end of 2.x? > >>> > >>> Why would I want the latest of a slowly dying major release? > >>> > >> Many of the modules that you may be looking for are not yet available > >> for 3.0. I expect that most people looking for "any version of python" > >> are really looking for a 2.x release. > >> > > > > Understood; it was the _definition_ of the link in specific terms of > > 2.x that seemed puzzling, as I don't think that history ends there. > > > > > From gdamore@sun.com Wed Jan 28 21:57:11 2009 Received: from newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (newsunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.245]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n0T5vBI5019029 for ; Wed, 28 Jan 2009 21:57:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id n0T5vAbF024569 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-ext@sun.com>; Wed, 28 Jan 2009 22:57:10 -0700 (MST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0KE700H0RXVA1N00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Wed, 28 Jan 2009 21:57:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from sca-es-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.43.132]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0KE700HKEXV9SDE0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Wed, 28 Jan 2009 21:57:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from fe-sfbay-09.sun.com ([192.18.43.129]) by sca-es-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id n0T5v9Ka022384 for ; Wed, 28 Jan 2009 21:57:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from conversion-daemon.fe-sfbay-09.sun.com by fe-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0KE700I01XTEQ500@fe-sfbay-09.sun.com> (original mail from gdamore@sun.com) for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Wed, 28 Jan 2009 21:57:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.251.11] ([76.93.15.33]) by fe-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0KE700FGWXV8EO10@fe-sfbay-09.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Wed, 28 Jan 2009 21:57:09 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 21:57:08 -0800 From: "Garrett D'Amore" Subject: Re: Python 2.6 and 3.0 [PSARC/2009/043] In-reply-to: <1233206620.827.460.camel@tecra> Sender: Garrett.Damore@sun.com To: laca@sun.com Cc: James Carlson , John.Fischer@sun.com, PSARC-ext@sun.com Message-id: <49814534.3060306@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <1232756567.2067.9.camel@sr1-umpk-12> <18813.44503.492175.873463@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <1233029496.827.321.camel@tecra> <18815.1957.610894.244905@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <1233110290.827.354.camel@tecra> <18816.45372.68493.127264@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4980BAB4.5000809@sun.com> <1233206620.827.460.camel@tecra> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.18 (X11/20081201) Status: RO Content-Length: 2072 Laszlo (Laca) Peter wrote: > On Wed, 2009-01-28 at 12:06 -0800, Garrett D'Amore wrote: > >> I wonder if it might not be a terrible idea to have /usr/bin/python2 and >> /usr/bin/python3 ? I don't know enough about Python, but if the >> incompatibilities are similar in scope the incompatibilities that >> existed between perl4 and perl5, then having a link that points to the >> latest minor release within a given major release might be useful. >> > > I don't think they are "compatible enough" for that. > If someone needs it for something so simple that it doesn't matter > which 2.x version is running then they can probably equally use 3.0. > Okay, that's why I asked. And I'll give it +1 as well. ;-) -- Garrett > Laca > > >> James Carlson wrote: >> >>> Laszlo (Laca) Peter writes: >>> >>> >>>> On Tue, 2009-01-27 at 08:09 -0500, James Carlson wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> I'm a little puzzled by that. Why would /usr/bin/python give me the >>>>> latest version of Python 2.x in particular, rather than just the >>>>> latest version of Python in general? >>>>> >>>>> >>>> Python 3.0 is very new and not widely adopted yet. >>>> >>>> >>> OK. I'll assume that /usr/bin/python though *will* (in the indefinite >>> future) become 3.0, and that it's not actually defined for users in >>> terms of 2.x. >>> >>> Making it the "newest commonly usable version" or some such should >>> resolve the issue. >>> >>> With that, +1. >>> >>> >>> >>>>> Why does history end at the end of 2.x? >>>>> >>>>> Why would I want the latest of a slowly dying major release? >>>>> >>>>> >>>> Many of the modules that you may be looking for are not yet available >>>> for 3.0. I expect that most people looking for "any version of python" >>>> are really looking for a 2.x release. >>>> >>>> >>> Understood; it was the _definition_ of the link in specific terms of >>> 2.x that seemed puzzling, as I don't think that history ends there. >>> >>> >>> > >