From gd78059@sac.sfbay.sun.com Mon Nov 16 21:50:07 2009 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id nAH5o6Ov004801 for ; Mon, 16 Nov 2009 21:50:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id nAH5o2kd014077; Tue, 17 Nov 2009 05:50:05 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0KT800205O7HYV00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Mon, 16 Nov 2009 21:50:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from dm-sfbay-01.sfbay.sun.com ([129.145.155.118]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0KT800JHZO7G7I40@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Mon, 16 Nov 2009 21:50:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from sac.sfbay.sun.com (sac.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.226.132]) by dm-sfbay-01.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.4) with ESMTP id nAH5o4va010577; Mon, 16 Nov 2009 21:50:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from sac.sfbay.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id nAH5o0iT004796; Mon, 16 Nov 2009 21:50:00 -0800 (PST) Received: (from gd78059@localhost) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/Submit) id nAH5o0hX004792; Mon, 16 Nov 2009 21:50:00 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 21:50:00 -0800 (PST) From: "Garrett D'Amore - sun microsystems" Subject: EOF sag [PSARC/2009/632 FastTrack timeout 11/23/2009] To: PSARC-ext@sun.com Cc: Garrett.Damore@sun.com Message-id: <200911170550.nAH5o0hX004792@sac.sfbay.sun.com> Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 Status: RO Content-Length: 3719 Template Version: @(#)sac_nextcase 1.68 02/23/09 SMI This information is Copyright 2009 Sun Microsystems 1. Introduction 1.1. Project/Component Working Name: EOF sag 1.2. Name of Document Author/Supplier: Author: Garrett D'Amore 1.3 Date of This Document: 16 November, 2009 4. Technical Description EOF of sag ---------- As part of the process of unravelling dependency trees to allow removal of some other antiquated software, we have run into a situation where sag(1) is the last linchpin preventing cleanup of a bunch of other legacy components. sag is a tool that generates Tek 4014 format graphs from the output of "sar". These graphs can be viewed using either the Tek mode window in xterm(1), or by further converting them to PostScript using posttek(1). It turns out that the mechanism which sag uses to generate graphs is incompatible with more modern graphing solutions as it has a few hacks that depend on the specific quirks of legacy graph(1). An initial effort at converting the tool to use GNU graph proved to be ... non-trivial, due largely to the very hackish nature in which the sag abuses graph. Additionally, these hacks, and other limitations in the tools, actually produce suboptimal output... indeed this author would even go so far as to call them outright "ugly", compared to what can be generated with more clean solutions based on gnuplot, etc. While it is certainly the case that sag could be updated to use gnuplot much more elegantly, it is our belief that the effort required to do so, and to preserve complete command line syntax, is an expense that is out of balance with the rewards of any such effort. The sag tool itself is so limited, unfriendly and awkward that we believe that most sites that have wanted graphical display of sar data have sought other solutions: either implementing scripts around gnuplot or spreadsheet programs in house, or by using other 3rd party solutions. It turns out that there are a much more functional, and usable, options available from third parties. One example we've looked at in some detail is kSar (http://ksar.atomique.net/), which is available as an Open Source Java application. While still having a few rough edges, we believe that this product (and other options like it) represent a much better solution for administrators looking to graphically process sar data. With this in mind, we are requesting to EOF the sag application altogether. We believe that its loss will be felt by very few, and that the expenses of keeping sag around far outweigh any benefit we gain by doing so. We are expressly requesting permission to do this without having a plan to integrate a "replacement". kSar could potentially be integrated in the future, but we would prefer not to have this as a dependency for this effort. Ultimately we believe that this is a case where 3rd party tools should be used to answer the different needs of administrators. There is no "drop in" replacement for "sag", in any event. (Aside: the use of sar based statistics itself is perhaps something that warrants further examination. In the OpenSolaris era, we have other options, such as JKstat, and DTrace, which might arguably be claimed offer far more options for detailed observability into the system workings. That said, many many organizations over the years (decades!) have come to rely on raw sar data to help them better understand what their systems are doing. We believe sar is likely to have utility for some years to come, as a result.) 6. Resources and Schedule 6.4. Steering Committee requested information 6.4.1. Consolidation C-team Name: ON 6.5. ARC review type: FastTrack 6.6. ARC Exposure: open From Garrett.Damore@sun.com Wed Nov 18 10:19:45 2009 Received: from sunmail5.uk.sun.com (sunmail5.UK.Sun.COM [129.156.85.165]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id nAIIJisJ018421 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2009 10:19:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail5.uk.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id nAIIJgZ9023941 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-ext@sun.com>; Wed, 18 Nov 2009 18:19:44 GMT Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0KTB00H2JHKUCN00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@Sun.COM); Wed, 18 Nov 2009 10:19:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from sca-es-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.43.132]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0KTB0080NHKUJPF0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@Sun.COM); Wed, 18 Nov 2009 10:19:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from fe-sfbay-10.sun.com ([192.18.43.129]) by sca-es-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id nAIIJg8X006261 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2009 10:19:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from conversion-daemon.fe-sfbay-10.sun.com by fe-sfbay-10.sun.com (Sun Java(tm) System Messaging Server 7u2-7.04 64bit (built Jul 2 2009)) id <0KTB00I00GVGQ300@fe-sfbay-10.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@Sun.COM (ORCPT PSARC-ext@Sun.COM); Wed, 18 Nov 2009 10:19:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.251.11] ([unknown] [76.93.15.33]) by fe-sfbay-10.sun.com (Sun Java(tm) System Messaging Server 7u2-7.04 64bit (built Jul 2 2009)) with ESMTPSA id <0KTB00IPOHKRFN60@fe-sfbay-10.sun.com>; Wed, 18 Nov 2009 10:19:39 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 10:19:39 -0800 From: "Garrett D'Amore" Subject: Re: EOF sag [PSARC/2009/632 FastTrack timeout 11/23/2009] In-reply-to: <200911170550.nAH5o0hX004792@sac.sfbay.sun.com> Sender: Garrett.Damore@sun.com To: "Garrett D'Amore - sun microsystems" Cc: PSARC-ext@sun.com Reply-to: Garrett.Damore@sun.com Message-id: <4B043ABB.7070108@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <200911170550.nAH5o0hX004792@sac.sfbay.sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (X11/20091013) Status: RO Content-Length: 4172 In case it wasn't clear, this case would void the TCR for PSARC 2009/585. Assuming that a +1 is received in before then, it was agreed at PSARC to shorten the timeout on this case to allow it to be approved earlier than would normally be done. -- Garrett Garrett D'Amore - sun microsystems wrote: > Template Version: @(#)sac_nextcase 1.68 02/23/09 SMI > This information is Copyright 2009 Sun Microsystems > 1. Introduction > 1.1. Project/Component Working Name: > EOF sag > 1.2. Name of Document Author/Supplier: > Author: Garrett D'Amore > 1.3 Date of This Document: > 16 November, 2009 > 4. Technical Description > EOF of sag > ---------- > > As part of the process of unravelling dependency trees to allow > removal of some other antiquated software, we have run into a situation > where sag(1) is the last linchpin preventing cleanup of a bunch of other > legacy components. > > sag is a tool that generates Tek 4014 format graphs from the output of > "sar". These graphs can be viewed using either the Tek mode window > in xterm(1), or by further converting them to PostScript using posttek(1). > > It turns out that the mechanism which sag uses to generate graphs is > incompatible with more modern graphing solutions as it has a few hacks > that depend on the specific quirks of legacy graph(1). An initial > effort at converting the tool to use GNU graph proved to be ... non-trivial, > due largely to the very hackish nature in which the sag abuses graph. > > Additionally, these hacks, and other limitations in the tools, actually > produce suboptimal output... indeed this author would even go so far as > to call them outright "ugly", compared to what can be generated with > more clean solutions based on gnuplot, etc. > > While it is certainly the case that sag could be updated to use > gnuplot much more elegantly, it is our belief that the effort required > to do so, and to preserve complete command line syntax, is an expense > that is out of balance with the rewards of any such effort. The sag tool > itself is so limited, unfriendly and awkward that we believe that most > sites that have wanted graphical display of sar data have sought > other solutions: either implementing scripts around gnuplot or spreadsheet > programs in house, or by using other 3rd party solutions. > > It turns out that there are a much more functional, and usable, options > available from third parties. One example we've looked at in some detail > is kSar (http://ksar.atomique.net/), which is available as an Open Source > Java application. While still having a few rough edges, we believe that > this product (and other options like it) represent a much better solution > for administrators looking to graphically process sar data. > > With this in mind, we are requesting to EOF the sag application altogether. > We believe that its loss will be felt by very few, and that the expenses > of keeping sag around far outweigh any benefit we gain by doing so. > > We are expressly requesting permission to do this without having a plan > to integrate a "replacement". kSar could potentially be integrated in > the future, but we would prefer not to have this as a dependency for > this effort. Ultimately we believe that this is a case where 3rd party > tools should be used to answer the different needs of administrators. > There is no "drop in" replacement for "sag", in any event. > > (Aside: the use of sar based statistics itself is perhaps something > that warrants further examination. In the OpenSolaris era, we have > other options, such as JKstat, and DTrace, which might arguably be > claimed offer far more options for detailed observability into the > system workings. That said, many many organizations over the years > (decades!) have come to rely on raw sar data to help them better understand > what their systems are doing. We believe sar is likely to have utility > for some years to come, as a result.) > > 6. Resources and Schedule > 6.4. Steering Committee requested information > 6.4.1. Consolidation C-team Name: > ON > 6.5. ARC review type: FastTrack > 6.6. ARC Exposure: open > > From gdamore@sun.com Wed Nov 25 12:15:08 2009 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id nAPKF8tv021527 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 2009 12:15:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.4) with ESMTP id nAPKF5vB001829 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-ext@sun.com>; Wed, 25 Nov 2009 12:15:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0KTO00123LL8RA00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Wed, 25 Nov 2009 12:15:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from sca-es-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.43.132]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0KTO00FS5LL61180@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Wed, 25 Nov 2009 12:15:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from fe-sfbay-10.sun.com ([192.18.43.129]) by sca-es-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id nAPKF6Ze026186 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 2009 12:15:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from conversion-daemon.fe-sfbay-10.sun.com by fe-sfbay-10.sun.com (Sun Java(tm) System Messaging Server 7u2-7.04 64bit (built Jul 2 2009)) id <0KTO00G00L7EDS00@fe-sfbay-10.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Wed, 25 Nov 2009 12:15:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.251.11] ([unknown] [76.93.15.33]) by fe-sfbay-10.sun.com (Sun Java(tm) System Messaging Server 7u2-7.04 64bit (built Jul 2 2009)) with ESMTPSA id <0KTO00I85LL3HQ20@fe-sfbay-10.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Wed, 25 Nov 2009 12:15:04 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 12:15:03 -0800 From: "Garrett D'Amore" Subject: PSARC 2009/632 EOF of sag Sender: Garrett.Damore@sun.com To: PSARC-ext Message-id: <4B0D9047.8040808@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (X11/20091013) Status: RO Content-Length: 144 Can I get a +1 on this case, please? I'd really like to get the removal of this legacy integrated before b130 closes. Thanks. - Garrett From glenn.skinner@covad.net Wed Nov 25 15:24:52 2009 Received: from sunmail6brm.central.sun.com (sunmail6brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.169]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id nAPNOqq4029505 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 2009 15:24:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail6brm.central.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.4) with ESMTP id nAPNOpCf000189; Wed, 25 Nov 2009 17:24:52 -0600 (CST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0KTO00C05UDFHD00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 25 Nov 2009 15:24:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from sca-ea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.43.25]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0KTO007LUUDFZ410@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Wed, 25 Nov 2009 15:24:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay42i.sun.com ([192.5.209.72]) by sca-ea-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id nAPNOpKg013421; Wed, 25 Nov 2009 23:24:51 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mmp41es.mmp.us.syntegra.com ([160.41.221.10] [160.41.221.10]) by relay42i.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-1373030; Wed, 25 Nov 2009 23:24:50 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay43i.sun.com (relay43i.sun.com [192.5.209.74]) by mmp41es.mmp.us.syntegra.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-71080329; Wed, 25 Nov 2009 23:24:50 +0000 (Z) Received: from mail165c8.megamailservers.com ([209.235.129.75] [209.235.129.75]) by relay4i.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-26423137; Wed, 25 Nov 2009 23:24:50 +0000 (Z) Received: from mail165c8.megamailservers.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail165c8.megamailservers.com (8.13.6/8.13.1) with ESMTP id nAPNOmBj026247; Wed, 25 Nov 2009 18:24:49 -0500 Received: (from webmail@localhost) by mail165c8.megamailservers.com (8.13.6/8.12.2/Submit) id nAPNOmlU026246; Wed, 25 Nov 2009 18:24:48 -0500 Received: from c-76-105-253-236.hsd1.or.comcast.net (c-76-105-253-236.hsd1.or.comcast.net [76.105.253.236]) by webmail1.covad.net (Webmail 4.0 V.V.I.) with HTTP for ; Wed, 25 Nov 2009 18:24:48 -0500 Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 18:24:48 -0500 From: glenn.skinner@covad.net Subject: Re: PSARC 2009/632 EOF of sag To: PSARC-ext , "Garrett D'Amore" Message-id: <20091125182448.a7g5annyp14w0w4g@webmail1.covad.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== X-Antispam: No, score=1.0/5.0, scanned in 0.281sec at (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smf-spamd v1.3.1 - http://smfs.sf.net/ User-Agent: Webmail 4.0 Status: RO Content-Length: 204 Quoting Garrett D'Amore : > Can I get a +1 on this case, please? > > I'd really like to get the removal of this legacy integrated before b130 > closes. +1 -- Glenn From gdamore@sun.com Mon Nov 30 09:32:55 2009 Received: from sunmail6brm.central.sun.com (sunmail6brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.169]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id nAUHWtZv009615 for ; Mon, 30 Nov 2009 09:32:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail6brm.central.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.4) with ESMTP id nAUHWtnW014365 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-ext@sun.com>; Mon, 30 Nov 2009 11:32:55 -0600 (CST) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0KTX00L01NEVDA00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@Sun.COM); Mon, 30 Nov 2009 10:32:55 -0700 (MST) Received: from sca-es-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.43.133]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0KTX00J4YNEUE010@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@Sun.COM); Mon, 30 Nov 2009 10:32:54 -0700 (MST) Received: from fe-sfbay-09.sun.com ([192.18.43.129]) by sca-es-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id nAUHWss2017841 for ; Mon, 30 Nov 2009 09:32:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from conversion-daemon.fe-sfbay-09.sun.com by fe-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java(tm) System Messaging Server 7u2-7.04 64bit (built Jul 2 2009)) id <0KTX00100MZJ6N00@fe-sfbay-09.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@Sun.COM (ORCPT PSARC-ext@Sun.COM); Mon, 30 Nov 2009 09:32:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.251.11] ([unknown] [76.93.15.33]) by fe-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java(tm) System Messaging Server 7u2-7.04 64bit (built Jul 2 2009)) with ESMTPSA id <0KTX00CY5NEDGPD0@fe-sfbay-09.sun.com>; Mon, 30 Nov 2009 09:32:42 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 09:32:36 -0800 From: "Garrett D'Amore" Subject: Re: EOF sag [PSARC/2009/632 FastTrack timeout 11/23/2009] In-reply-to: <4B043ABB.7070108@sun.com> Sender: Garrett.Damore@sun.com To: Garrett.Damore@sun.com Cc: "Garrett D'Amore - sun microsystems" , PSARC-ext@sun.com Message-id: <4B1401B4.3080305@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <200911170550.nAH5o0hX004792@sac.sfbay.sun.com> <4B043ABB.7070108@sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (X11/20091013) Status: RO Content-Length: 100 This case, having a +1, and timing out with apparent consensus, is closed approved. - Garrett