From petede@sac.sfbay.sun.com Fri Jul 23 08:55:43 2010 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id o6NFthE0003823 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2010 08:55:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.4) with ESMTP id o6NFtgrh025817; Fri, 23 Jul 2010 08:55:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0L6000L2HPKUM400@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Fri, 23 Jul 2010 08:55:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dm-sfbay-01.sfbay.sun.com ([129.145.155.118]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0L6000AYJPKSV6A0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Fri, 23 Jul 2010 08:55:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sac.sfbay.sun.com (sac.SFBay.Sun.COM [10.5.240.67]) by dm-sfbay-01.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.4) with ESMTP id o6NFtdND010902; Fri, 23 Jul 2010 08:55:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sac.sfbay.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id o6NFtd8P003813; Fri, 23 Jul 2010 08:55:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from petede@localhost) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/Submit) id o6NFtcNZ003809; Fri, 23 Jul 2010 08:55:38 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 08:55:38 -0700 (PDT) From: Peter Dennis Subject: Remove binary symlinks from /etc [PSARC/2010/289 FastTrack timeout 07/30/2010] To: PSARC-ext@sun.com Cc: venkytv@sun.com Message-id: <201007231555.o6NFtcNZ003809@sac.sfbay.sun.com> Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 Status: RO Content-Length: 3434 Required release binding: Patch binding for the announcement and marking as Obsolete. Minor binding for the removal. Template Version: @(#)sac_nextcase 1.70 03/30/10 SMI This information is Copyright (c) 2010, Oracle and/or its affiliates. All rights reserved. 1. Introduction 1.1. Project/Component Working Name: Remove binary symlinks from /etc 1.2. Name of Document Author/Supplier: Author: Venky Tv 1.3 Date of This Document: 23 July, 2010 4. Technical Description 4.1. Details: This project aims to remove binary symlinks from /etc. These compatibility links were introduced along with /sbin. The telinit(1M) utility which is symlink to /sbin/init will be moved from /etc to /sbin. Though there is no difference between init(1M) and telinit(1M) in Solaris anymore, telinit is still supposed to be the interface to use to signal init to change the runlevel or re-examine the /etc/inittab file. The changes have been tested to make sure they do not introduce any standards conformance issues. 4.2. Bug/RFE Number(s): 4856275 /etc needs a cleanup 4.5. Interfaces: The following interfaces in /etc will be deleted: autopush -> ../sbin/autopush cfgadm -> ../usr/sbin/cfgadm clri -> ../usr/sbin/clri cron -> ../usr/sbin/cron dcopy -> ../usr/sbin/dcopy ff -> ../usr/sbin/ff fmthard -> ../usr/sbin/fmthard format -> ../usr/sbin/format fsck -> ../usr/sbin/fsck fsdb -> ../usr/sbin/fsdb fstyp -> ../usr/sbin/fstyp getty -> ../usr/lib/saf/ttymon grpck -> ../usr/sbin/grpck halt -> ../usr/sbin/halt init -> ../sbin/init install -> ../usr/sbin/install killall -> ../usr/sbin/killall labelit -> ../usr/sbin/labelit mkfs -> ../usr/sbin/mkfs mknod -> ../usr/sbin/mknod mount -> ../sbin/mount mountall -> ../sbin/mountall ncheck -> ../usr/sbin/ncheck prtconf -> ../usr/sbin/prtconf prtvtoc -> ../usr/sbin/prtvtoc reboot -> ../usr/sbin/halt rmt -> ../usr/sbin/rmt setmnt -> ../usr/sbin/setmnt shutdown -> ../usr/sbin/shutdown sulogin -> ../sbin/sulogin swap -> ../usr/sbin/swap swapadd -> ../sbin/swapadd sysdef -> ../usr/sbin/sysdef tar -> ../usr/sbin/tar telinit -> ../sbin/init uadmin -> ../sbin/uadmin umount -> ../sbin/umount umountall -> ../sbin/umountall volcopy -> ../usr/sbin/volcopy wall -> ../usr/sbin/wall whodo -> ../usr/sbin/whodo This interface will be introduced: /sbin/telinit -> /sbin/init 4.6. Doc Impact: The telinit(1M) manpage needs to be modified to indicate the new location of the telinit executable. 4.10. Packaging & Delivery: All these are part of the SUNWcs package. There is no impact on install/upgrade. 6. Resources and Schedule 6.4. Steering Committee requested information 6.4.1. Consolidation C-team Name: ON 6.5. ARC review type: FastTrack 6.6. ARC Exposure: open From joerg.schilling9ab33xy531fokus.fraunhofer.de@bounce.antispameurope.com Fri Jul 23 09:22:55 2010 Received: from newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (newsunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.245]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id o6NGMtHO004582 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2010 09:22:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.4) with ESMTP id o6NGMsE5058037 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-ext@sun.com>; Fri, 23 Jul 2010 10:22:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0L6000503QU6NU00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Fri, 23 Jul 2010 09:22:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sca-ea-mail-3.sun.com ([192.18.43.21]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0L60005I4QU54Z00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Fri, 23 Jul 2010 09:22:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay13i.sun.com (ip123.net129179-4.block1.us.syntegra.com [129.179.4.123]) by sca-ea-mail-3.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id o6NGMrdJ016203 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2010 16:22:53 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mmp11es.mmp.us.syntegra.com ([160.41.208.11] [160.41.208.11]) by relay13i.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-791268 for PSARC-ext@sun.com; Fri, 23 Jul 2010 16:20:53 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay15i.sun.com (relay15i.sun.com [129.179.4.125]) by mmp11es.mmp.us.syntegra.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-49543519 for PSARC-ext@sun.com; Fri, 23 Jul 2010 16:20:52 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay02-haj2.antispameurope.com ([83.246.65.52] [83.246.65.52]) by relay1i.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-11151109 for PSARC-ext@sun.com; Fri, 23 Jul 2010 16:20:51 +0000 (Z) Received: by relay02-haj2.antispameurope.com (ASE-Secure-MTA, from userid 1000) id 726C36F0605; Fri, 23 Jul 2010 18:20:50 +0200 (CEST) Received: from pluto.fokus.fraunhofer.de (pluto.fokus.fraunhofer.de [195.37.77.164]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by relay02-haj2.antispameurope.com (ASE-Secure-MTA) with ESMTP id 8ABD76F05FB; Fri, 23 Jul 2010 18:20:49 +0200 (CEST) Received: from EXCHSRV.fokus.fraunhofer.de (bohr.fokus.fraunhofer.de [10.147.9.231]) by pluto.fokus.fraunhofer.de (8.14.2/8.14.2) with SMTP id o6NGKnmO010297; Fri, 23 Jul 2010 18:20:49 +0200 (MEST) Received: from rigel ([10.147.65.195]) by EXCHSRV.fokus.fraunhofer.de with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Fri, 23 Jul 2010 18:20:49 +0200 Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 18:20:49 +0200 From: Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (Joerg Schilling) Subject: Re: Remove binary symlinks from /etc [PSARC/2010/289 FastTrack timeout 07/30/2010] In-reply-to: <201007231555.o6NFtcNZ003809@sac.sfbay.sun.com> Sender: joerg.schilling9ab33xy531fokus.fraunhofer.de@bounce.antispameurope.com To: PSARC-ext@sun.com, petede@sac.sfbay.sun.com Message-id: <4c49c161.oqcIQtqk8BFQfvD0%Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== X-Antispam: No, score=0.0/5.0, scanned in 0.831sec at (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smf-spamd v1.3.1 - http://smfs.sf.net/ References: <201007231555.o6NFtcNZ003809@sac.sfbay.sun.com> User-Agent: nail 11.22 3/20/05 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 23 Jul 2010 16:20:49.0277 (UTC) FILETIME=[03304AD0:01CB2A83] Status: RO Content-Length: 1670 Peter Dennis wrote: > The following interfaces in /etc will be deleted: > > autopush -> ../sbin/autopush > cfgadm -> ../usr/sbin/cfgadm > clri -> ../usr/sbin/clri > cron -> ../usr/sbin/cron > dcopy -> ../usr/sbin/dcopy > ff -> ../usr/sbin/ff > fmthard -> ../usr/sbin/fmthard > format -> ../usr/sbin/format > fsck -> ../usr/sbin/fsck > fsdb -> ../usr/sbin/fsdb > fstyp -> ../usr/sbin/fstyp > getty -> ../usr/lib/saf/ttymon > grpck -> ../usr/sbin/grpck > halt -> ../usr/sbin/halt > init -> ../sbin/init > install -> ../usr/sbin/install > killall -> ../usr/sbin/killall > labelit -> ../usr/sbin/labelit > mkfs -> ../usr/sbin/mkfs > mknod -> ../usr/sbin/mknod > mount -> ../sbin/mount > mountall -> ../sbin/mountall > ncheck -> ../usr/sbin/ncheck > prtconf -> ../usr/sbin/prtconf > prtvtoc -> ../usr/sbin/prtvtoc > reboot -> ../usr/sbin/halt > rmt -> ../usr/sbin/rmt Never delete a link that is in use by _external_ software. /etc/rmt is a remote tape interface driver and needs to stay exactly in this location. Jörg -- EMail:joerg@schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin js@cs.tu-berlin.de (uni) joerg.schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily From garrett@damore.org Fri Jul 23 10:36:22 2010 Received: from sunmail6brm.central.sun.com (sunmail6brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.169]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id o6NHaMBH006101 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2010 10:36:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail6brm.central.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.4) with ESMTP id o6NHaL6B021053 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-ext@sun.com>; Fri, 23 Jul 2010 12:36:22 -0500 (CDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0L6000905U8MOI00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Fri, 23 Jul 2010 10:36:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sca-ea-mail-3.sun.com ([192.18.43.21]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0L60005UFU8L4Z50@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Fri, 23 Jul 2010 10:36:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay15i.sun.com (ip125.net129179-4.block1.us.syntegra.com [129.179.4.125]) by sca-ea-mail-3.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id o6NHaLto016345 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2010 17:36:21 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mmp12es.mmp.us.syntegra.com ([160.41.208.12] [160.41.208.12]) by relay15i.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-249786 for PSARC-ext@sun.com; Fri, 23 Jul 2010 17:36:21 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay13i.sun.com (relay13i.sun.com [129.179.4.123]) by mmp12es.mmp.us.syntegra.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-49653781 for PSARC-ext@sun.com; Fri, 23 Jul 2010 17:36:20 +0000 (Z) Received: from oproxy2-pub.bluehost.com ([67.222.39.60] [67.222.39.60]) by relay1i.sun.com id BT-MMP-37295389 for PSARC-ext@sun.com; Fri, 23 Jul 2010 17:36:20 +0000 (Z) Received: (qmail 9946 invoked by uid 0); Fri, 23 Jul 2010 17:36:20 +0000 Received: from unknown (HELO box374.bluehost.com) (69.89.31.174) by oproxy2.bluehost.com with SMTP; Fri, 23 Jul 2010 17:36:20 +0000 Received: from cpe-75-82-74-133.socal.res.rr.com ([75.82.74.133] helo=[192.168.251.102]) by box374.bluehost.com with esmtpsa (SSLv3:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OcMAV-00085Q-Sd; Fri, 23 Jul 2010 11:36:20 -0600 Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 10:36:18 -0700 From: "Garrett D'Amore" Subject: Re: Remove binary symlinks from /etc [PSARC/2010/289 FastTrack timeout 07/30/2010] In-reply-to: <201007231555.o6NFtcNZ003809@sac.sfbay.sun.com> To: Peter Dennis Cc: PSARC-ext@sun.com Message-id: <1279906578.1997.19.camel@velocity> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.28.3 Content-type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=default; d=damore.org; h=Received:Subject:From:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:References:Content-Type:Date:Message-ID:Mime-Version:X-Mailer:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Identified-User; b=qJ3LsBD8b+dBbwdWWwyJqHpsWrWxHSeBojNcz4J9L51Wus140d9f08oS0jL7oSoMuSWSli2qdCf5R5aLgsEHfbWxgNf0piIx8koDh3cHscI4SOyjdrDBSdKCT07U0HTd; X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== X-Identified-User: {2225:box374.bluehost.com:damoreor:damore.org} {sentby:smtp auth 75.82.74.133 authed with garrett+damore.org} X-Antispam: No, score=-2.6/5.0, scanned in 0.192sec at (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smf-spamd v1.3.1 - http://smfs.sf.net/ References: <201007231555.o6NFtcNZ003809@sac.sfbay.sun.com> Status: RO Content-Length: 5249 To my mind, its about time! The question I have is 3rd party software. Candidates that seem to be likely to be used by ISVs: autopush fstyp install mknod mount rmt (this one may have implications for interop with BSD systems) tar uadmin volcopy The remainder seem unlikely to be used by ISVs. Looking at the above list: All of these seem like they should be obtained by $PATH. The impact to ISV software seems like it would mostly be exceptional cases, such as stuff related to STREAMs modules, unusual kernel software, or stuff ported from BSD. I think we can probably live with the fall out. One possible exception to that concern is rmt. I worry that "/etc/rmt" may be hard coded into software that would be using remote tape facilities. While I doubt there is much concern about SunOS 4.x and earlier accessing rmt in this way (over rsh), I am not convinced that there are no other places this is hard coded (such as in other tape management systems.) Has any investigative work been done to try to ensure that removing /etc/rmt won't cause heartache to such subsystems? Do all the common tape management systems now in use either use something other than rmt or at least don't use "/etc/rmt" hardcoded? I'll give a +1 to the case for all these except rmt; I'll withhold the overall +1 including rmt until I hear that at least some work to ensure that the impact is not severe for rmt has been done. - Garrett On Fri, 2010-07-23 at 08:55 -0700, Peter Dennis wrote: > Required release binding: > Patch binding for the announcement and marking as Obsolete. > Minor binding for the removal. > > Template Version: @(#)sac_nextcase 1.70 03/30/10 SMI > This information is Copyright (c) 2010, Oracle and/or its affiliates. All rights reserved. > 1. Introduction > 1.1. Project/Component Working Name: > Remove binary symlinks from /etc > 1.2. Name of Document Author/Supplier: > Author: Venky Tv > 1.3 Date of This Document: > 23 July, 2010 > 4. Technical Description > > 4.1. Details: > > This project aims to remove binary symlinks from /etc. These > compatibility links were introduced along with /sbin. > > The telinit(1M) utility which is symlink to /sbin/init will be > moved from /etc to /sbin. Though there is no difference > between init(1M) and telinit(1M) in Solaris anymore, telinit is > still supposed to be the interface to use to signal init to > change the runlevel or re-examine the /etc/inittab file. > > The changes have been tested to make sure they do not introduce any > standards conformance issues. > > 4.2. Bug/RFE Number(s): > > 4856275 /etc needs a cleanup > > 4.5. Interfaces: > > The following interfaces in /etc will be deleted: > > autopush -> ../sbin/autopush > cfgadm -> ../usr/sbin/cfgadm > clri -> ../usr/sbin/clri > cron -> ../usr/sbin/cron > dcopy -> ../usr/sbin/dcopy > ff -> ../usr/sbin/ff > fmthard -> ../usr/sbin/fmthard > format -> ../usr/sbin/format > fsck -> ../usr/sbin/fsck > fsdb -> ../usr/sbin/fsdb > fstyp -> ../usr/sbin/fstyp > getty -> ../usr/lib/saf/ttymon > grpck -> ../usr/sbin/grpck > halt -> ../usr/sbin/halt > init -> ../sbin/init > install -> ../usr/sbin/install > killall -> ../usr/sbin/killall > labelit -> ../usr/sbin/labelit > mkfs -> ../usr/sbin/mkfs > mknod -> ../usr/sbin/mknod > mount -> ../sbin/mount > mountall -> ../sbin/mountall > ncheck -> ../usr/sbin/ncheck > prtconf -> ../usr/sbin/prtconf > prtvtoc -> ../usr/sbin/prtvtoc > reboot -> ../usr/sbin/halt > rmt -> ../usr/sbin/rmt > setmnt -> ../usr/sbin/setmnt > shutdown -> ../usr/sbin/shutdown > sulogin -> ../sbin/sulogin > swap -> ../usr/sbin/swap > swapadd -> ../sbin/swapadd > sysdef -> ../usr/sbin/sysdef > tar -> ../usr/sbin/tar > telinit -> ../sbin/init > uadmin -> ../sbin/uadmin > umount -> ../sbin/umount > umountall -> ../sbin/umountall > volcopy -> ../usr/sbin/volcopy > wall -> ../usr/sbin/wall > whodo -> ../usr/sbin/whodo > > This interface will be introduced: > > /sbin/telinit -> /sbin/init > > 4.6. Doc Impact: > > The telinit(1M) manpage needs to be modified to indicate the > new location of the telinit executable. > > 4.10. Packaging & Delivery: > > All these are part of the SUNWcs package. There is no impact > on install/upgrade. > > > 6. Resources and Schedule > 6.4. Steering Committee requested information > 6.4.1. Consolidation C-team Name: > ON > 6.5. ARC review type: FastTrack > 6.6. ARC Exposure: open > > _______________________________________________ > opensolaris-arc mailing list > opensolaris-arc@opensolaris.org From Andrew.Gabriel@Oracle.com Fri Jul 23 12:00:52 2010 Received: from sunmail6brm.central.sun.com (sunmail6brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.169]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id o6NJ0pQG007589 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2010 12:00:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail6brm.central.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.4) with ESMTP id o6NJ0pAD027574 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-ext@sun.com>; Fri, 23 Jul 2010 14:00:51 -0500 (CDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0L6000E0FY5F9600@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Fri, 23 Jul 2010 12:00:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sca-ea-mail-4.sun.com ([192.18.43.22]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0L600056TY5E57B0@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Fri, 23 Jul 2010 12:00:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from acsinet15.oracle.com (acsinet15.oracle.com [141.146.126.227]) by sca-ea-mail-4.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id o6NJ0oop001686; Fri, 23 Jul 2010 19:00:50 +0000 (GMT) Received: from acsmt353.oracle.com (acsmt353.oracle.com [141.146.40.153]) by acsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.2/Switch-3.4.1) with ESMTP id o6N4poSC025790; Fri, 23 Jul 2010 19:00:47 +0000 (GMT) Received: from abhmt019.oracle.com by acsmt354.oracle.com with ESMTP id 432037831279911642; Fri, 23 Jul 2010 12:00:42 -0700 Received: from [81.187.162.109] (/81.187.162.109) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Fri, 23 Jul 2010 12:00:42 -0700 Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 20:01:40 +0100 From: Andrew Gabriel Subject: Re: Remove binary symlinks from /etc [PSARC/2010/289 FastTrack timeout 07/30/2010] In-reply-to: <1279906578.1997.19.camel@velocity> To: "Garrett D'Amore" Cc: Peter Dennis , PSARC-ext@sun.com Message-id: <4C49E714.7080203@oracle.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 X-Source-IP: acsmt353.oracle.com [141.146.40.153] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090204.4C49E6DF.02AC:SCFMA4539814,ss=1,fgs=0 References: <201007231555.o6NFtcNZ003809@sac.sfbay.sun.com> <1279906578.1997.19.camel@velocity> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (X11/20090929) Status: RO Content-Length: 773 Garrett D'Amore wrote: > One possible exception to that concern is rmt. I worry that "/etc/rmt" > may be hard coded into software that would be using remote tape > facilities. While I doubt there is much concern about SunOS 4.x and > earlier accessing rmt in this way (over rsh), I am not convinced that > there are no other places this is hard coded (such as in other tape > management systems.) > > Has any investigative work been done to try to ensure that > removing /etc/rmt won't cause heartache to such subsystems? Do all the > common tape management systems now in use either use something other > than rmt or at least don't use "/etc/rmt" hardcoded? > The path /etc/rmt is effectively part of the rmt protocol. We can't remove this one. -- Andrew Gabriel From garrett@damore.org Fri Jul 23 12:43:00 2010 Received: from sunmail6brm.central.sun.com (sunmail6brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.169]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id o6NJh0XZ007887 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2010 12:43:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail6brm.central.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.4) with ESMTP id o6NJgx8P013973 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:PSARC-ext@sun.com>; Fri, 23 Jul 2010 14:42:59 -0500 (CDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0L6100G0103NK500@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Fri, 23 Jul 2010 12:42:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.98.31]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0L61005GE03M57D0@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for PSARC-ext@sun.com (ORCPT PSARC-ext@sun.com); Fri, 23 Jul 2010 12:42:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay43i.sun.com ([192.5.209.74]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id o6NJgw5H007826 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2010 19:42:58 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mmp42es.mmp.us.syntegra.com ([160.41.221.11] [160.41.221.11]) by relay43i.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-126655 for PSARC-ext@sun.com; Fri, 23 Jul 2010 19:42:58 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay42i.sun.com (relay42i.sun.com [192.5.209.72]) by mmp42es.mmp.us.syntegra.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-41215306 for PSARC-ext@sun.com; Fri, 23 Jul 2010 19:42:57 +0000 (Z) Received: from oproxy3-pub.bluehost.com ([69.89.21.8] [69.89.21.8]) by relay4i.sun.com id BT-MMP-943733 for PSARC-ext@sun.com; Fri, 23 Jul 2010 19:42:57 +0000 (Z) Received: (qmail 26083 invoked by uid 0); Fri, 23 Jul 2010 19:42:57 +0000 Received: from unknown (HELO box374.bluehost.com) (69.89.31.174) by oproxy3.bluehost.com with SMTP; Fri, 23 Jul 2010 19:42:57 +0000 Received: from cpe-75-82-74-133.socal.res.rr.com ([75.82.74.133] helo=[192.168.251.102]) by box374.bluehost.com with esmtpsa (SSLv3:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OcO92-0000x1-SS; Fri, 23 Jul 2010 13:42:57 -0600 Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 12:42:53 -0700 From: "Garrett D'Amore" Subject: Re: Remove binary symlinks from /etc [PSARC/2010/289 FastTrack timeout 07/30/2010] In-reply-to: <4C49E714.7080203@oracle.com> To: Andrew Gabriel Cc: Peter Dennis , PSARC-ext@sun.com Message-id: <1279914173.1997.158.camel@velocity> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.28.3 Content-type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=default; d=damore.org; h=Received:Subject:From:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:References:Content-Type:Date:Message-ID:Mime-Version:X-Mailer:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Identified-User; b=mz1WWkjMwzweOd6lNmTp5qLUZ+RrsOeKeVQxGg8Z/jh7CIJYT7gVlRVXU0KopCWrmU6N+XCPKa1Ng1A4dEAnujyH5aYUQVwXuk2yGmUNejUjd8yFr+rziegh0cMYp+gY; X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== X-Identified-User: {2225:box374.bluehost.com:damoreor:damore.org} {sentby:smtp auth 75.82.74.133 authed with garrett+damore.org} X-Antispam: No, score=0.0/5.0, scanned in 0.162sec at (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smf-spamd v1.3.1 - http://smfs.sf.net/ References: <201007231555.o6NFtcNZ003809@sac.sfbay.sun.com> <1279906578.1997.19.camel@velocity> <4C49E714.7080203@oracle.com> Status: RO Content-Length: 1021 On Fri, 2010-07-23 at 20:01 +0100, Andrew Gabriel wrote: > Garrett D'Amore wrote: > > One possible exception to that concern is rmt. I worry that "/etc/rmt" > > may be hard coded into software that would be using remote tape > > facilities. While I doubt there is much concern about SunOS 4.x and > > earlier accessing rmt in this way (over rsh), I am not convinced that > > there are no other places this is hard coded (such as in other tape > > management systems.) > > > > Has any investigative work been done to try to ensure that > > removing /etc/rmt won't cause heartache to such subsystems? Do all the > > common tape management systems now in use either use something other > > than rmt or at least don't use "/etc/rmt" hardcoded? > > > > The path /etc/rmt is effectively part of the rmt protocol. > We can't remove this one. > That's what I thought. :-) Unless there is a workaround, or the protocol is no longer needed (not sure about that myself!), we have to leave rmt where it is. - Garrett From Darren.Moffat@Oracle.COM Mon Jul 26 07:02:37 2010 Received: from newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (newsunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.245]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id o6QE2b6b013064 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2010 07:02:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.4) with ESMTP id o6QE2ZfR025143; Mon, 26 Jul 2010 08:02:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0L6600E0B4CBM900@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Mon, 26 Jul 2010 07:02:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sca-ea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.43.24]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0L6600DDN4CASL90@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Mon, 26 Jul 2010 07:02:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcsinet15.oracle.com (rcsinet15.oracle.com [148.87.113.117]) by sca-ea-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id o6QE2Sgc029389; Mon, 26 Jul 2010 14:02:29 +0000 (GMT) Received: from acsmt355.oracle.com (acsmt355.oracle.com [141.146.40.155]) by rcsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.2/Switch-3.4.1) with ESMTP id o6QE2Ro6008740; Mon, 26 Jul 2010 14:02:27 +0000 (GMT) Received: from abhmt004.oracle.com by acsmt355.oracle.com with ESMTP id 457800351280152940; Mon, 26 Jul 2010 07:02:20 -0700 Received: from [10.7.251.221] (/10.7.251.221) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Mon, 26 Jul 2010 07:02:19 -0700 Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2010 15:02:16 +0100 From: Darren J Moffat Subject: Re: Remove binary symlinks from /etc [PSARC/2010/289 FastTrack timeout 07/30/2010] In-reply-to: <201007231555.o6NFtcNZ003809@sac.sfbay.sun.com> To: Peter Dennis Cc: PSARC-ext@sun.com, venkytv@sun.com Message-id: <4C4D9568.2090804@Oracle.COM> Organization: Oracle Solaris Security MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 X-Source-IP: acsmt355.oracle.com [141.146.40.155] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090206.4C4D9574.011A:SCFMA4539814,ss=1,fgs=0 References: <201007231555.o6NFtcNZ003809@sac.sfbay.sun.com> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; SunOS i86pc; en-US; rv:1.9.1.9) Gecko/20100607 Lightning/1.0b1 OracleBeehiveExtension/1.0.0.0pre3 Thunderbird/3.0.4 Status: RO Content-Length: 400 Note that this isn't as simple as just no longer shipping the links. In addition to /etc/rmt there are a couple of other places were code does execute the /etc version of the program. There are several in ON all of which (other than /etc/rmt) are easily fixed. This case should also remove /etc from the PATHs in the /etc/skel/local.profile and /etc/skel/local.cshrc files. -- Darren J Moffat From gww@sac.sfbay.sun.com Mon Jul 26 08:21:53 2010 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id o6QFLrs5014194 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2010 08:21:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.4) with ESMTP id o6QFLpMj029975; Mon, 26 Jul 2010 08:21:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0L6600F0X80FPV00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Mon, 26 Jul 2010 08:21:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dm-sfbay-02.sfbay.sun.com ([129.146.11.31]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0L6600E1080DY620@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Mon, 26 Jul 2010 08:21:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sac.sfbay.sun.com (sac.SFBay.Sun.COM [10.5.240.67]) by dm-sfbay-02.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.4) with ESMTP id o6QFLmaF027294; Mon, 26 Jul 2010 08:21:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sac.sfbay.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id o6QFLmPT014186; Mon, 26 Jul 2010 08:21:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from gww@localhost) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/Submit) id o6QFLmRA014185; Mon, 26 Jul 2010 08:21:48 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2010 08:21:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Gary Winiger Subject: Re: Remove binary symlinks from /etc [PSARC/2010/289 FastTrack timeout 07/30/2010] To: Darren.Moffat@Oracle.COM, petede@sac.sfbay.sun.com Cc: psarc-ext@sun.com, venkytv@sun.com Message-id: <201007261521.o6QFLmRA014185@sac.sfbay.sun.com> Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 Status: RO Content-Length: 364 Seeing yet another involvement of /etc/ symlinks brought by Darren leads me to question the architectural value of the proposed changes. I like cleanlyness. I also like compatibility. This seems architecturally to me like change for changes sake. Bigger tail fins on this years car. What is the compelling reason for making an incompatible change? -1 Gary.. From peter.memishian@oracle.com Mon Jul 26 09:32:51 2010 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id o6QGWpNc016740 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2010 09:32:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.4) with ESMTP id o6QGWpK1018728 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:psarc-ext@sun.com>; Mon, 26 Jul 2010 09:32:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0L6600401BARYE00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Mon, 26 Jul 2010 10:32:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from triplex.local ([129.146.108.208]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0L660044QBAQXM00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Mon, 26 Jul 2010 10:32:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from triplex.local (triplex [127.0.0.1]) by triplex.local (8.14.3+Sun/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o6QGWpBE116788; Mon, 26 Jul 2010 09:32:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from meem@localhost) by triplex.local (8.14.3+Sun/8.14.3/Submit) id o6QGWpQP116785; Mon, 26 Jul 2010 09:32:51 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2010 09:32:51 -0700 From: Peter Memishian Subject: Re: Remove binary symlinks from /etc [PSARC/2010/289 FastTrack timeout 07/30/2010] To: gww@eng.Sun.COM Cc: psarc-ext@sun.com Reply-to: peter.memishian@oracle.com Message-id: <19533.47283.173342.733796@gargle.gargle.HOWL> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: VM 7.19 under 21.4 (patch 21) "Educational Television" XEmacs Lucid Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 X-Authentication-warning: triplex.local: meem set sender to peter.memishian@oracle.com using -f Status: RO Content-Length: 919 > Seeing yet another involvement of /etc/ symlinks brought by Darren leads > me to question the architectural value of the proposed changes. > I like cleanlyness. I also like compatibility. This seems architecturally > to me like change for changes sake. Bigger tail fins on this years car. > > What is the compelling reason for making an incompatible change? > > -1 Though I'm not a voting member, I strongly agree. This proposed change solves no architecural problem with the system that I can find (the directory is aptly named "/etc", though our use of it has become more refined with time). However, it may well require customers to retrain fingers and update scripts that have worked for decades. If even one customer is inconvenienced by these changes, I'd argue the cost has already exceeded the benefit. Yes, we can break things, but that doesn't mean we should do so frivolously. -- meem From garrett@damore.org Mon Jul 26 09:51:04 2010 Received: from newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (newsunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.245]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id o6QGp4kl017307 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2010 09:51:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.4) with ESMTP id o6QGp1TJ048916 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:psarc-ext@sun.com>; Mon, 26 Jul 2010 10:51:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0L660020TC53Z900@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Mon, 26 Jul 2010 09:51:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sca-ea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.43.24]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0L6600HC6C53FA20@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Mon, 26 Jul 2010 09:51:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay44i.sun.com ([192.5.209.118]) by sca-ea-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id o6QGi793013508 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2010 16:51:02 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mmp43es.mmp.us.syntegra.com ([160.41.221.12] [160.41.221.12]) by relay44i.sun.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-9897 for psarc-ext@sun.com; Mon, 26 Jul 2010 16:51:02 +0000 (Z) Received: from relay45i.sun.com (relay45i.sun.com [192.5.209.94]) by mmp43es.mmp.us.syntegra.com with ESMTP id BT-MMP-45704401 for psarc-ext@sun.com; Mon, 26 Jul 2010 16:51:01 +0000 (Z) Received: from oproxy3-pub.bluehost.com ([69.89.21.8] [69.89.21.8]) by relay4i.sun.com id BT-MMP-11336062 for psarc-ext@sun.com; Mon, 26 Jul 2010 16:51:01 +0000 (Z) Received: (qmail 5925 invoked by uid 0); Mon, 26 Jul 2010 16:44:21 +0000 Received: from unknown (HELO box374.bluehost.com) (69.89.31.174) by oproxy3.bluehost.com with SMTP; Mon, 26 Jul 2010 16:44:21 +0000 Received: from cpe-75-82-74-133.socal.res.rr.com ([75.82.74.133] helo=[192.168.251.102]) by box374.bluehost.com with esmtpsa (SSLv3:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OdQmr-0002qK-Da; Mon, 26 Jul 2010 10:44:21 -0600 Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2010 09:44:31 -0700 From: "Garrett D'Amore" Subject: Re: Remove binary symlinks from /etc [PSARC/2010/289 FastTrack timeout 07/30/2010] In-reply-to: <19533.47283.173342.733796@gargle.gargle.HOWL> To: peter.memishian@oracle.com Cc: gww@eng.Sun.COM, psarc-ext@sun.com Message-id: <1280162671.8632.70.camel@velocity> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.28.3 Content-type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=default; d=damore.org; h=Received:Subject:From:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:References:Content-Type:Date:Message-ID:Mime-Version:X-Mailer:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Identified-User; b=iBORkMXFNHI+crX2b5ys6KUSksTfJXiUzpWu3/WS75gC/Taf/RcyOmTPAProqFCkibL3T/4v6nFNxr7oR28Jl9MNRf0oCOivOHkaePLo5RaywdIJbUhoOzCaPDjvhrP/; X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== X-Identified-User: {2225:box374.bluehost.com:damoreor:damore.org} {sentby:smtp auth 75.82.74.133 authed with garrett+damore.org} X-Antispam: No, score=-0.2/5.0, scanned in 0.241sec at (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smf-spamd v1.3.1 - http://smfs.sf.net/ References: <19533.47283.173342.733796@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Status: RO Content-Length: 1778 I think removing things that users are likely to type is better. We want to discourage /etc from showing up in $PATH, so from my point of view this is supportive of that. I also think the opportunity to do this is *now*, while we've made a large number of other incompatible changes to the system -- before it stabilizes again. (I.e. this pseudo-minor/major release cycle for Solaris Next.) That said, I think /etc/rmt has to stay. I see no large and compelling reason the others need to stay, but I also confess the benefits of removing the links are a bit small. Edit the case to exclude /etc/rmt, and I'll +1. If someone else feels that the change is risky enough to derail it after that, then they are welcome to do so (provided they are a member.) - Garrett On Mon, 2010-07-26 at 09:32 -0700, Peter Memishian wrote: > > Seeing yet another involvement of /etc/ symlinks brought by Darren leads > > me to question the architectural value of the proposed changes. > > I like cleanlyness. I also like compatibility. This seems architecturally > > to me like change for changes sake. Bigger tail fins on this years car. > > > > What is the compelling reason for making an incompatible change? > > > > -1 > > Though I'm not a voting member, I strongly agree. > > This proposed change solves no architecural problem with the system that I > can find (the directory is aptly named "/etc", though our use of it has > become more refined with time). However, it may well require customers to > retrain fingers and update scripts that have worked for decades. If even > one customer is inconvenienced by these changes, I'd argue the cost has > already exceeded the benefit. Yes, we can break things, but that doesn't > mean we should do so frivolously. > From Nicolas.Williams@oracle.com Mon Jul 26 10:04:41 2010 Received: from newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (newsunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.245]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id o6QH4frY017819 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2010 10:04:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.4) with ESMTP id o6QH4dHH060578 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:psarc-ext@sun.com>; Mon, 26 Jul 2010 11:04:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0L6600K1QCRSWV00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Mon, 26 Jul 2010 10:04:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sca-ea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.43.25]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0L6600EUZCRSYAD0@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Mon, 26 Jul 2010 10:04:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcsinet15.oracle.com (rcsinet15.oracle.com [148.87.113.117]) by sca-ea-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id o6QH4YQQ025687; Mon, 26 Jul 2010 17:04:35 +0000 (GMT) Received: from acsmt354.oracle.com (acsmt354.oracle.com [141.146.40.154]) by rcsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.2/Switch-3.4.1) with ESMTP id o6PG3lmX031697; Mon, 26 Jul 2010 17:04:30 +0000 (GMT) Received: from abhmt009.oracle.com by acsmt355.oracle.com with ESMTP id 458432011280163814; Mon, 26 Jul 2010 10:03:34 -0700 Received: from oracle.com (/129.153.128.104) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Mon, 26 Jul 2010 10:03:34 -0700 Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2010 12:03:07 -0500 From: Nicolas Williams Subject: Re: Remove binary symlinks from /etc [PSARC/2010/289 FastTrack timeout 07/30/2010] In-reply-to: <1280162671.8632.70.camel@velocity> To: "Garrett D'Amore" Cc: peter.memishian@oracle.com, gww@eng.sun.com, psarc-ext@sun.com Message-id: <20100726170306.GA27130@oracle.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 X-Source-IP: acsmt354.oracle.com [141.146.40.154] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090204.4C4DC020.0264:SCFMA4539814,ss=1,fgs=0 References: <19533.47283.173342.733796@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <1280162671.8632.70.camel@velocity> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2010-03-02) Status: RO Content-Length: 1223 On Mon, Jul 26, 2010 at 09:44:31AM -0700, Garrett D'Amore wrote: > I think removing things that users are likely to type is better. We > want to discourage /etc from showing up in $PATH, so from my point of > view this is supportive of that. Making sure that there are no executable things in /etc that aren't also in a common bin directory is obvious, and simple enough. Removing executable things from /etc is OK IFF we're confident that they aren't hardcoded and that nothing depends on having /etc in PATH to find them. For some things we know that we can't remove them (e.g., rmt). > I also think the opportunity to do this is *now*, while we've made a > large number of other incompatible changes to the system -- before it > stabilizes again. (I.e. this pseudo-minor/major release cycle for > Solaris Next.) Right. > That said, I think /etc/rmt has to stay. I see no large and compelling > reason the others need to stay, but I also confess the benefits of > removing the links are a bit small. > > Edit the case to exclude /etc/rmt, and I'll +1. If someone else feels > that the change is risky enough to derail it after that, then they are > welcome to do so (provided they are a member.) Non-member +1 From scott.rotondo@oracle.com Mon Jul 26 10:31:59 2010 Received: from sunmail6brm.central.sun.com (sunmail6brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.169]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id o6QHVxno018024 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2010 10:31:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail6brm.central.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.4) with ESMTP id o6QHVpGP013608 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:psarc-ext@sun.com>; Mon, 26 Jul 2010 12:31:58 -0500 (CDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0L6600B2BE0X8R00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Mon, 26 Jul 2010 10:31:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.98.31]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0L6600HMME0XF240@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Mon, 26 Jul 2010 10:31:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from acsinet15.oracle.com (acsinet15.oracle.com [141.146.126.227]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id o6QHViXM005893 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2010 17:31:44 +0000 (GMT) Received: from acsmt353.oracle.com (acsmt353.oracle.com [141.146.40.153]) by acsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.2/Switch-3.4.1) with ESMTP id o6PNOhuj013203 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2010 17:31:43 +0000 (GMT) Received: from abhmt001.oracle.com by acsmt355.oracle.com with ESMTP id 437461701280165495; Mon, 26 Jul 2010 10:31:35 -0700 Received: from [129.146.108.62] (/129.146.108.62) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Mon, 26 Jul 2010 10:31:35 -0700 Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2010 10:31:35 -0700 From: Scott Rotondo Subject: Re: Remove binary symlinks from /etc [PSARC/2010/289 FastTrack timeout 07/30/2010] In-reply-to: <19533.47283.173342.733796@gargle.gargle.HOWL> To: peter.memishian@oracle.com Cc: psarc-ext@sun.com Message-id: <4C4DC677.5080101@oracle.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 X-Source-IP: acsmt353.oracle.com [141.146.40.153] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090203.4C4DC67F.01C5:SCFMA4539814,ss=1,fgs=0 References: <19533.47283.173342.733796@gargle.gargle.HOWL> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; SunOS i86pc; en-US; rv:1.9.1.10) Gecko/20100621 Lightning/1.0b1 OracleBeehiveExtension/1.0.0.0pre11-OracleInternal Thunderbird/3.0.5 Status: RO Content-Length: 2262 On 07/26/10 09:32 AM, Peter Memishian wrote: > > > Seeing yet another involvement of /etc/ symlinks brought by Darren leads > > me to question the architectural value of the proposed changes. > > I like cleanlyness. I also like compatibility. This seems architecturally > > to me like change for changes sake. Bigger tail fins on this years car. > > > > What is the compelling reason for making an incompatible change? > > > > -1 > > Though I'm not a voting member, I strongly agree. > > This proposed change solves no architecural problem with the system that I > can find (the directory is aptly named "/etc", though our use of it has > become more refined with time). However, it may well require customers to > retrain fingers and update scripts that have worked for decades. If even > one customer is inconvenienced by these changes, I'd argue the cost has > already exceeded the benefit. Yes, we can break things, but that doesn't > mean we should do so frivolously. I was inclined to agree that this change seemed gratuitous. But then I looked at /etc and discovered that the cleanup value is larger than I would have guessed - this case would remove fully 20% of the entries in /etc on my system. I think it's significant that we moved all of these programs out of /etc years ago, leaving behind the symlinks to help ease the transition. Because we haven't been adding new administrative commands to /etc, I'm willing to believe that administrators have updated their PATH long ago to replace /etc with /usr/sbin. [1] So while I agree with Meem's notion of avoiding frivolous change, I think this one is worth it. Of course, as others have already pointed out: * /etc/rmt needs to stay because it's part of an external protocol. * The PATH setting in /etc/skel files needs to have /etc (and /usr/ucb) removed and /usr/sbin added (perhaps /sbin too). * Any existing invocations of these commands in Solaris (not just ON) need to be fixed. Scott [1] Just the zfs and zpool commmands, which do not exist in /etc, are sufficient to convince me of this point. -- Scott Rotondo Senior Principal Engineer, Solaris Core OS Engineering President, Trusted Computing Group Phone: +1 650 786 6309 (Internal x86309) From peter.dennis@oracle.com Mon Jul 26 10:36:09 2010 Received: from sunmail6brm.central.sun.com (sunmail6brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.169]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id o6QHa9ua018144 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2010 10:36:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail6brm.central.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.4) with ESMTP id o6QHa8Q8015089 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:psarc-ext@sun.com>; Mon, 26 Jul 2010 12:36:08 -0500 (CDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0L6600A0NE88UL00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Mon, 26 Jul 2010 11:36:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.98.43]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0L66004D8E87XK90@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Mon, 26 Jul 2010 11:36:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from rcsinet13.oracle.com (rcsinet13.oracle.com [148.87.113.125]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id o6QHa79k001893 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2010 17:36:07 +0000 (GMT) Received: from acsmt354.oracle.com (acsmt354.oracle.com [141.146.40.154]) by rcsinet13.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.2/Switch-3.4.1) with ESMTP id o6PMRoJT021015 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2010 17:36:06 +0000 (GMT) Received: from abhmt003.oracle.com by acsmt353.oracle.com with ESMTP id 437474801280165725; Mon, 26 Jul 2010 10:35:25 -0700 Received: from [192.168.1.100] (/86.144.204.114) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Mon, 26 Jul 2010 10:35:25 -0700 Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2010 18:35:25 +0100 From: Peter Dennis Subject: Re: Remove binary symlinks from /etc [PSARC/2010/289 FastTrack timeout 07/30/2010] In-reply-to: <20100726170306.GA27130@oracle.com> To: psarc-ext@sun.com Message-id: <4C4DC75D.1070501@oracle.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 X-Source-IP: acsmt354.oracle.com [141.146.40.154] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090209.4C4DC786.02A5:SCFMA4539814,ss=1,fgs=0 References: <19533.47283.173342.733796@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <1280162671.8632.70.camel@velocity> <20100726170306.GA27130@oracle.com> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; SunOS i86pc; en-US; rv:1.9.1.7) Gecko/20100214 Lightning/1.0b1 Thunderbird/3.0.1 Status: RO Content-Length: 1974 The case will be updated so as _not_ to include /etc/rmt. The change to the /etc/skel profiles will be documented as well. The other changes within ON are internal to the commands used and are small changes. As mentioned by others now is the time to remove this stuff (what purpose does it serve ? why is the zfs command not there?) These links form no part of a standard (the project team verified this). I'll get the spec updated to reflect that: o /etc/rmt will not be touched o /etc/skel/* will have the /etc removed from the PATH thanks pete On 26/07/2010 18:03, Nicolas Williams wrote: > On Mon, Jul 26, 2010 at 09:44:31AM -0700, Garrett D'Amore wrote: >> I think removing things that users are likely to type is better. We >> want to discourage /etc from showing up in $PATH, so from my point of >> view this is supportive of that. > > Making sure that there are no executable things in /etc that aren't also > in a common bin directory is obvious, and simple enough. > > Removing executable things from /etc is OK IFF we're confident that they > aren't hardcoded and that nothing depends on having /etc in PATH to find > them. For some things we know that we can't remove them (e.g., rmt). > >> I also think the opportunity to do this is *now*, while we've made a >> large number of other incompatible changes to the system -- before it >> stabilizes again. (I.e. this pseudo-minor/major release cycle for >> Solaris Next.) > > Right. > >> That said, I think /etc/rmt has to stay. I see no large and compelling >> reason the others need to stay, but I also confess the benefits of >> removing the links are a bit small. >> >> Edit the case to exclude /etc/rmt, and I'll +1. If someone else feels >> that the change is risky enough to derail it after that, then they are >> welcome to do so (provided they are a member.) > > Non-member +1 > _______________________________________________ > opensolaris-arc mailing list > opensolaris-arc@opensolaris.org From peter.memishian@oracle.com Mon Jul 26 12:03:07 2010 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id o6QJ37tH020477 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2010 12:03:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.4) with ESMTP id o6QJ35n8011435 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:psarc-ext@sun.com>; Mon, 26 Jul 2010 12:03:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0L6600I0NI96SE00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Mon, 26 Jul 2010 13:03:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: from triplex.local ([129.146.108.208]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0L6600FRRI96HW50@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Mon, 26 Jul 2010 13:03:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: from triplex.local (triplex [127.0.0.1]) by triplex.local (8.14.3+Sun/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o6QJ35WA116899; Mon, 26 Jul 2010 12:03:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from meem@localhost) by triplex.local (8.14.3+Sun/8.14.3/Submit) id o6QJ35Kv116896; Mon, 26 Jul 2010 12:03:05 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2010 12:03:05 -0700 From: Peter Memishian Subject: Re: Remove binary symlinks from /etc [PSARC/2010/289 FastTrack timeout 07/30/2010] In-reply-to: <4C4DC677.5080101@oracle.com> To: Scott Rotondo Cc: peter.memishian@oracle.com, psarc-ext@sun.com Reply-to: peter.memishian@oracle.com Message-id: <19533.56297.549558.302839@gargle.gargle.HOWL> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: VM 7.19 under 21.4 (patch 21) "Educational Television" XEmacs Lucid Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <19533.47283.173342.733796@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4C4DC677.5080101@oracle.com> X-Authentication-warning: triplex.local: meem set sender to peter.memishian@oracle.com using -f Status: RO Content-Length: 951 > I was inclined to agree that this change seemed gratuitous. But then I > looked at /etc and discovered that the cleanup value is larger than I > would have guessed - this case would remove fully 20% of the entries in > /etc on my system. This implies that the exising size of /etc has been somehow a burden on your use of the system; has it? > So while I agree with Meem's notion of avoiding frivolous change, I > think this one is worth it. Of course, as others have already pointed out: > > * /etc/rmt needs to stay because it's part of an external protocol. > > * The PATH setting in /etc/skel files needs to have /etc (and /usr/ucb) > removed and /usr/sbin added (perhaps /sbin too). > > * Any existing invocations of these commands in Solaris (not just ON) > need to be fixed. To me, this is all consuming resources that could be better spent solving actual customer problems, not potentially creating them. -- meem From sommerfeld@sun.com Mon Jul 26 13:36:30 2010 Received: from sunmail6brm.central.sun.com (sunmail6brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.169]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id o6QKaUOI022023 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2010 13:36:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail6brm.central.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.4) with ESMTP id o6QKaUgr023889; Mon, 26 Jul 2010 15:36:30 -0500 (CDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0L660031FMKUN700@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Mon, 26 Jul 2010 13:36:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dm-sfbay-02.sfbay.sun.com ([129.146.11.31]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0L6600HO8MKTF4E0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM>; Mon, 26 Jul 2010 13:36:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thunk-west.local (dhcp-umpk17-109-211.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.109.211]) by dm-sfbay-02.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.4) with ESMTP id o6QKaSuX021630; Mon, 26 Jul 2010 13:36:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPv6:::1] (thunk-west [IPv6:::1]) by thunk-west.local (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id o6QKaSl2215486; Mon, 26 Jul 2010 13:36:28 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2010 13:36:28 -0700 From: Bill Sommerfeld Subject: Re: Remove binary symlinks from /etc [PSARC/2010/289 FastTrack timeout 07/30/2010] In-reply-to: <19533.47283.173342.733796@gargle.gargle.HOWL> To: peter.memishian@oracle.com Cc: gww@eng.Sun.COM, psarc-ext@sun.com Message-id: <4C4DF1CC.6010602@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 References: <19533.47283.173342.733796@gargle.gargle.HOWL> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; SunOS i86pc; en-US; rv:1.9.1.10) Gecko/20100621 Lightning/1.0b1 Thunderbird/3.0.5 Status: RO Content-Length: 840 On 07/26/10 09:32, Peter Memishian wrote: > This proposed change solves no architecural problem with the system that I > can find (the directory is aptly named "/etc", though our use of it has > become more refined with time). However, it may well require customers to > retrain fingers and update scripts that have worked for decades. If even > one customer is inconvenienced by these changes, I'd argue the cost has > already exceeded the benefit. Yes, we can break things, but that doesn't > mean we should do so frivolously. I'm with meem on this. I see little value-add here and a lot of hard-to-quantify risk from deleting these. If we have to do something, move the /etc compat symlinks to an optional package or package facet that people who want "cleanliness" can uninstall or disable at their own risk. - Bill From sebastien.roy@oracle.com Mon Jul 26 13:49:30 2010 Received: from sunmail6brm.central.sun.com (sunmail6brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.169]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id o6QKnUTx022110 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2010 13:49:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail6brm.central.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.4) with ESMTP id o6QKnTBt029229 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:psarc-ext@sun.com>; Mon, 26 Jul 2010 15:49:30 -0500 (CDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0L6600609N6HAK00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Mon, 26 Jul 2010 13:49:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sca-ea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.43.24]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0L6600H6UN6GFCF0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Mon, 26 Jul 2010 13:49:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcsinet15.oracle.com (rcsinet15.oracle.com [148.87.113.117]) by sca-ea-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id o6QKnRO1023452 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2010 20:49:27 +0000 (GMT) Received: from acsmt355.oracle.com (acsmt355.oracle.com [141.146.40.155]) by rcsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.2/Switch-3.4.1) with ESMTP id o6QHX4nA001841 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2010 20:49:26 +0000 (GMT) Received: from abhmt003.oracle.com by acsmt354.oracle.com with ESMTP id 459062761280177362; Mon, 26 Jul 2010 13:49:22 -0700 Received: from [129.148.174.103] (/129.148.174.103) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Mon, 26 Jul 2010 13:49:21 -0700 Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2010 16:49:20 -0400 From: Sebastien Roy Subject: Re: Remove binary symlinks from /etc [PSARC/2010/289 FastTrack timeout 07/30/2010] In-reply-to: <4C4DC75D.1070501@oracle.com> To: Peter Dennis Cc: psarc-ext@sun.com Message-id: <4C4DF4D0.1020907@oracle.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 X-Source-IP: acsmt355.oracle.com [141.146.40.155] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090204.4C4DF4D7.00F6:SCFMA4539814,ss=1,fgs=0 References: <19533.47283.173342.733796@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <1280162671.8632.70.camel@velocity> <20100726170306.GA27130@oracle.com> <4C4DC75D.1070501@oracle.com> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; SunOS i86pc; en-US; rv:1.9.2.7) Gecko/20100717 Lightning/1.0b2pre Thunderbird/3.1.1 Status: RO Content-Length: 1657 On 07/26/10 01:35 PM, Peter Dennis wrote: > The case will be updated so as _not_ to include /etc/rmt. > > The change to the /etc/skel profiles will be documented as > well. > > The other changes within ON are internal to the commands used > and are small changes. > > As mentioned by others now is the time to remove this stuff > (what purpose does it serve ? The purpose for the existence of the symbolic links is for backward compatibility, as the commands have been in that location for decades. > why is the zfs command not there?) I don't see this question as being relevant. The zfs command was never there, so it would follow that no-one would have written scripts to call it directly from there. > > These links form no part of a standard (the project team verified > this). I don't think anyone has brought up standards conformance as a contentious issue. The original request from Gary was for a justification for making such an incompatible change. I share Gary's original sentiment, and am concerned that the risk (much of which is unknown) associated with such a change outweighs the reward (which AFAIK no-one has identified yet). I think at this point, we've identified that this is at least not uncontroversial, and thus fails the fast-track test. As a result, I'm derailing this case. Since the scope of this case is so small, I don't think the project team should be required to submit any materials in addition to what is already available in the fast-track, and would request that we simply schedule an inception review meeting where we can discuss the outstanding issue(s) and potentially request a vote. -Seb From sebastien.roy@oracle.com Mon Jul 26 13:53:49 2010 Received: from sunmail6brm.central.sun.com (sunmail6brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.169]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id o6QKrm1D022195 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2010 13:53:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail6brm.central.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.4) with ESMTP id o6QKrmBT001034 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:psarc-ext@sun.com>; Mon, 26 Jul 2010 15:53:48 -0500 (CDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0L6600701NDOAD00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Mon, 26 Jul 2010 13:53:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sca-ea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.43.25]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0L6600HSCNDOFBE0@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Mon, 26 Jul 2010 13:53:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from acsinet15.oracle.com (acsinet15.oracle.com [141.146.126.227]) by sca-ea-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id o6QKrl37026165 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2010 20:53:47 +0000 (GMT) Received: from acsmt355.oracle.com (acsmt355.oracle.com [141.146.40.155]) by acsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.2/Switch-3.4.1) with ESMTP id o6QHX4BH001066 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2010 20:53:45 +0000 (GMT) Received: from abhmt014.oracle.com by acsmt355.oracle.com with ESMTP id 459075251280177621; Mon, 26 Jul 2010 13:53:41 -0700 Received: from [129.148.174.103] (/129.148.174.103) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Mon, 26 Jul 2010 13:53:41 -0700 Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2010 16:53:40 -0400 From: Sebastien Roy Subject: Re: Remove binary symlinks from /etc [PSARC/2010/289 FastTrack timeout 07/30/2010] In-reply-to: <4C4DF4D0.1020907@oracle.com> To: Peter Dennis Cc: psarc-ext@sun.com Message-id: <4C4DF5D4.2020108@oracle.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 X-Source-IP: acsmt355.oracle.com [141.146.40.155] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090203.4C4DF5DA.011C:SCFMA4539814,ss=1,fgs=0 References: <19533.47283.173342.733796@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <1280162671.8632.70.camel@velocity> <20100726170306.GA27130@oracle.com> <4C4DC75D.1070501@oracle.com> <4C4DF4D0.1020907@oracle.com> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; SunOS i86pc; en-US; rv:1.9.2.7) Gecko/20100717 Lightning/1.0b2pre Thunderbird/3.1.1 Status: RO Content-Length: 312 On 07/26/10 04:49 PM, Sebastien Roy wrote: > I think at this point, we've identified that this is at least not > uncontroversial, and thus fails the fast-track test. As a result, I'm > derailing this case. Also, as is customary, I'll own the full case and have placed it in "waiting need meeting" state. -Seb From scott.rotondo@oracle.com Mon Jul 26 14:15:17 2010 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id o6QLFGRg023008 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2010 14:15:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.4) with ESMTP id o6QLFBVY023111; Mon, 26 Jul 2010 14:15:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0L660081HODF1R00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Mon, 26 Jul 2010 15:15:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.98.43]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0L6600437ODFY710@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com>; Mon, 26 Jul 2010 15:15:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from acsinet15.oracle.com (acsinet15.oracle.com [141.146.126.227]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id o6QLFE6u028353; Mon, 26 Jul 2010 21:15:15 +0000 (GMT) Received: from acsmt354.oracle.com (acsmt354.oracle.com [141.146.40.154]) by acsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.2/Switch-3.4.1) with ESMTP id o6QJpNWd014770; Mon, 26 Jul 2010 21:15:13 +0000 (GMT) Received: from abhmt010.oracle.com by acsmt355.oracle.com with ESMTP id 459142961280178911; Mon, 26 Jul 2010 14:15:11 -0700 Received: from [129.146.108.62] (/129.146.108.62) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Mon, 26 Jul 2010 14:15:11 -0700 Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2010 14:15:12 -0700 From: Scott Rotondo Subject: Re: Remove binary symlinks from /etc [PSARC/2010/289 FastTrack timeout 07/30/2010] In-reply-to: <4C4DF1CC.6010602@sun.com> To: Bill Sommerfeld Cc: psarc-ext@sun.com Message-id: <4C4DFAE0.4040407@oracle.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 X-Source-IP: acsmt354.oracle.com [141.146.40.154] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090204.4C4DFAE2.01A4:SCFMA4539814,ss=1,fgs=0 References: <19533.47283.173342.733796@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4C4DF1CC.6010602@sun.com> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; SunOS i86pc; en-US; rv:1.9.1.10) Gecko/20100621 Lightning/1.0b1 OracleBeehiveExtension/1.0.0.0pre11-OracleInternal Thunderbird/3.0.5 Status: RO Content-Length: 1490 On 07/26/10 01:36 PM, Bill Sommerfeld wrote: > On 07/26/10 09:32, Peter Memishian wrote: >> This proposed change solves no architecural problem with the system >> that I >> can find (the directory is aptly named "/etc", though our use of it has >> become more refined with time). However, it may well require customers to >> retrain fingers and update scripts that have worked for decades. If even >> one customer is inconvenienced by these changes, I'd argue the cost has >> already exceeded the benefit. Yes, we can break things, but that doesn't >> mean we should do so frivolously. > > I'm with meem on this. I see little value-add here and a lot of > hard-to-quantify risk from deleting these. > > If we have to do something, move the /etc compat symlinks to an optional > package or package facet that people who want "cleanliness" can > uninstall or disable at their own risk. I like the idea of moving these compatibility symlinks to a separate package, though my preference would be that it *not* be installed by default. Regardless of what happens with the symlinks in /etc, this discussion has pointed out an actual problem that should be fixed: The PATH settings in /etc/skel are outdated. That's just a bug that should be fixed even if this case doesn't go forward. I've taken the liberty of filing CR 6972273. Scott -- Scott Rotondo Senior Principal Engineer, Solaris Core OS Engineering President, Trusted Computing Group Phone: +1 650 786 6309 (Internal x86309) From bill.sommerfeld@oracle.com Mon Jul 26 14:19:55 2010 Received: from sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2sca.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.234]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id o6QLJss2023122 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2010 14:19:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM (nwk-avmta-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.74]) by sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.4) with ESMTP id o6QLJs2C024460 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:psarc-ext@sun.com>; Mon, 26 Jul 2010 14:19:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0L6600C01OL6SX00@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Mon, 26 Jul 2010 14:19:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.98.31]) by nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0L66007E9OL6TF70@nwk-avmta-1.sfbay.Sun.COM> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Mon, 26 Jul 2010 14:19:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from acsinet15.oracle.com (acsinet15.oracle.com [141.146.126.227]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id o6QLJqnY007958; Mon, 26 Jul 2010 21:19:53 +0000 (GMT) Received: from acsmt354.oracle.com (acsmt354.oracle.com [141.146.40.154]) by acsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.2/Switch-3.4.1) with ESMTP id o6QCloB9025718; Mon, 26 Jul 2010 21:19:52 +0000 (GMT) Received: from abhmt004.oracle.com by acsmt355.oracle.com with ESMTP id 459063461280177376; Mon, 26 Jul 2010 13:49:36 -0700 Received: from [129.146.109.211] (/129.146.109.211) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Mon, 26 Jul 2010 13:49:35 -0700 Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2010 13:49:34 -0700 From: Bill Sommerfeld Subject: Re: Remove binary symlinks from /etc [PSARC/2010/289 FastTrack timeout 07/30/2010] In-reply-to: <19533.47283.173342.733796@gargle.gargle.HOWL> To: peter.memishian@oracle.com Cc: gww@eng.Sun.COM, psarc-ext@sun.com Message-id: <4C4DF4DE.6000801@oracle.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 X-Source-IP: acsmt354.oracle.com [141.146.40.154] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090207.4C4DFBF8.01B0:SCFMA4539814,ss=1,fgs=0 References: <19533.47283.173342.733796@gargle.gargle.HOWL> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; SunOS i86pc; en-US; rv:1.9.1.10) Gecko/20100621 Lightning/1.0b1 Thunderbird/3.0.5 Status: RO Content-Length: 929 [resend, with corrected from: address. didn't notice which address tbird had picked]. On 07/26/10 09:32, Peter Memishian wrote: > This proposed change solves no architecural problem with the system that I > can find (the directory is aptly named "/etc", though our use of it has > become more refined with time). However, it may well require customers to > retrain fingers and update scripts that have worked for decades. If even > one customer is inconvenienced by these changes, I'd argue the cost has > already exceeded the benefit. Yes, we can break things, but that doesn't > mean we should do so frivolously. I'm with meem on this. I see little value-add here and a lot of hard-to-quantify risk from deleting these. If we have to do something, move the /etc compat symlinks to an optional package or package facet that people who want "cleanliness" can uninstall or disable at their own risk. - Bill From gww@sac.sfbay.sun.com Mon Jul 26 16:05:50 2010 Received: from newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (newsunmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.62.245]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id o6QN5oW2025718 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2010 16:05:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (nwk-avmta-2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.145.155.6]) by newsunmail1brm.central.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7/ENSMAIL,v2.4) with ESMTP id o6QN5o9E019531; Mon, 26 Jul 2010 17:05:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0L6600H01THQBN00@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Mon, 26 Jul 2010 16:05:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dm-sfbay-01.sfbay.sun.com ([129.145.155.118]) by nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0L6600GVVTHPRK20@nwk-avmta-2.sfbay.sun.com>; Mon, 26 Jul 2010 16:05:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sac.sfbay.sun.com (sac.SFBay.Sun.COM [10.5.240.67]) by dm-sfbay-01.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.4) with ESMTP id o6QN5nBO014928; Mon, 26 Jul 2010 16:05:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sac.sfbay.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id o6QN5n9D025715; Mon, 26 Jul 2010 16:05:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from gww@localhost) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/Submit) id o6QN5n74025714; Mon, 26 Jul 2010 16:05:49 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2010 16:05:49 -0700 (PDT) From: Gary Winiger Subject: Re: Remove binary symlinks from /etc [PSARC/2010/289 FastTrack timeout 07/30/2010] To: scott.rotondo@oracle.com, sommerfeld@sun.com Cc: psarc-ext@sun.com Message-id: <201007262305.o6QN5n74025714@sac.sfbay.sun.com> Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 Status: RO Content-Length: 400 > Regardless of what happens with the symlinks in /etc, this discussion > has pointed out an actual problem that should be fixed: The PATH > settings in /etc/skel are outdated. That's just a bug that should be > fixed even if this case doesn't go forward. I've taken the liberty of > filing CR 6972273. IMO that's a bug and should be fixed independent of the disposition of this case. Gary.. From gww@sac.sfbay.sun.com Mon Jul 26 16:34:47 2010 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id o6QNYlSV026319 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2010 16:34:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.4) with ESMTP id o6QNYkZR026022 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:psarc-ext@sun.com>; Mon, 26 Jul 2010 16:34:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0L6600L07UTY3J00@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Mon, 26 Jul 2010 17:34:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from dm-sfbay-02.sfbay.sun.com ([129.146.11.31]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0L66004PNUTYYB50@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Mon, 26 Jul 2010 17:34:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sac.sfbay.sun.com (sac.SFBay.Sun.COM [10.5.240.67]) by dm-sfbay-02.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.4) with ESMTP id o6QNYjgL020269; Mon, 26 Jul 2010 16:34:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sac.sfbay.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id o6QNYjbN026316; Mon, 26 Jul 2010 16:34:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from gww@localhost) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/Submit) id o6QNYjqf026315; Mon, 26 Jul 2010 16:34:45 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2010 16:34:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Gary Winiger Subject: Re: Remove binary symlinks from /etc [PSARC/2010/289 FastTrack timeout 07/30/2010] To: peter.dennis@oracle.com, sebastien.roy@oracle.com Cc: psarc-ext@sun.com Message-id: <201007262334.o6QNYjqf026315@sac.sfbay.sun.com> Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 Status: RO Content-Length: 1231 > On 07/26/10 04:49 PM, Sebastien Roy wrote: > > I think at this point, we've identified that this is at least not > > uncontroversial, and thus fails the fast-track test. As a result, I'm > > derailing this case. Seb got there first. I was away for an extended time today. My reasons to derail include: 1) There is no compelling architectural argument why the proposed incompatible change change should be made with a Minor release binding. 2) I believe that it is incumbent on the Moderenization project to come forward with an architectural statement to set a precedent as to the bounds of incompatible change allowed for this Minor release. Coming from memory, the statements I recall from the Moderenization project are something like: don't break compatibility if you don't have to. If you do have to break compatibility, there needs to be an appreciable gain in value to the Solaris Architecture. The question is how to resolve the case: Provide a compelling architcetural argument that shows an appreciable gain in value to the Solaris Architecture. IMO, not only this project team, but also the Moderenization project team is necessary to attend the meeting. Gary.. From peter.dennis@oracle.com Tue Jul 27 01:14:54 2010 Received: from sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail3mpk.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.11.52]) by sac.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id o6R8EsYD005243 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2010 01:14:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (brm-avmta-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.4.11]) by sunmail3mpk.sfbay.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.4) with ESMTP id o6R8ErQE013248 for <@sunmail2sca.sfbay.sun.com:psarc-ext@sun.com>; Tue, 27 Jul 2010 01:14:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmxchannel-daemon.brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) id <0L670010JIWUA700@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Tue, 27 Jul 2010 02:14:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sca-ea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.43.24]) by brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-3.04 (built Jul 15 2005)) with ESMTP id <0L6700IJ4IWTRD20@brm-avmta-1.central.sun.com> for psarc-ext@sun.com (ORCPT psarc-ext@sun.com); Tue, 27 Jul 2010 02:14:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from acsinet15.oracle.com (acsinet15.oracle.com [141.146.126.227]) by sca-ea-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id o6R8Emwp004389; Tue, 27 Jul 2010 08:14:48 +0000 (GMT) Received: from acsmt353.oracle.com (acsmt353.oracle.com [141.146.40.153]) by acsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.2/Switch-3.4.1) with ESMTP id o6R8EkpT008264; Tue, 27 Jul 2010 08:14:46 +0000 (GMT) Received: from abhmt010.oracle.com by acsmt354.oracle.com with ESMTP id 439543961280218421; Tue, 27 Jul 2010 01:13:41 -0700 Received: from [129.156.198.33] (/129.156.198.33) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Tue, 27 Jul 2010 01:13:40 -0700 Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2010 09:13:39 +0100 From: Peter Dennis Subject: Re: Remove binary symlinks from /etc [PSARC/2010/289 FastTrack timeout 07/30/2010] In-reply-to: <201007262334.o6QNYjqf026315@sac.sfbay.sun.com> To: Gary Winiger , sebastien.roy@oracle.com Cc: psarc-ext@sun.com Message-id: <4C4E9533.5010206@oracle.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704 X-Source-IP: acsmt353.oracle.com [141.146.40.153] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090205.4C4E9577.0177:SCFMA4539814,ss=1,fgs=0 References: <201007262334.o6QNYjqf026315@sac.sfbay.sun.com> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; SunOS i86pc; en-US; rv:1.9.1.9) Gecko/20100607 Lightning/1.0b1 Thunderbird/3.0.4 Status: RO Content-Length: 1391 We'll work work the required people and arrange to come to a meeting. pete On 07/27/10 00:34, Gary Winiger wrote: >> On 07/26/10 04:49 PM, Sebastien Roy wrote: >>> I think at this point, we've identified that this is at least not >>> uncontroversial, and thus fails the fast-track test. As a result, I'm >>> derailing this case. > > Seb got there first. I was away for an extended time today. > My reasons to derail include: > 1) There is no compelling architectural argument why the > proposed incompatible change change should be made with > a Minor release binding. > 2) I believe that it is incumbent on the Moderenization > project to come forward with an architectural statement > to set a precedent as to the bounds of incompatible change > allowed for this Minor release. > Coming from memory, the statements I recall from the > Moderenization project are something like: don't break > compatibility if you don't have to. If you do have to > break compatibility, there needs to be an appreciable > gain in value to the Solaris Architecture. > > The question is how to resolve the case: Provide a compelling > architcetural argument that shows an appreciable gain in > value to the Solaris Architecture. > IMO, not only this project team, but also the Moderenization > project team is necessary to attend the meeting. > > Gary..